Harden’s Moment, an NFL Schedule Glut, Owning the Jazz, and a Boston Sports Check-In—With Bryan Curtis, Bill’s Dad, and Ryan Smith

Summary

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Harden’s Moment, an NFL Schedule Glut, Owning the Jazz, and a Boston Sports Check-In

Date: May 15, 2026
Guests: Bryan Curtis, Bill’s Dad, Ryan Smith (Utah Jazz Owner)

Episode Overview

In this dense and wide-ranging episode, Bill Simmons covers:

• Key NBA playoff storylines, with a focus on James Harden’s legacy, critical players in upcoming Game 6s, and trade possibilities.
• The explosion of live sports content, especially in light of the NFL’s increasingly aggressive scheduling, in a roundtable with Bryan Curtis.
• A Boston sports therapy session with Bill’s dad, discussing the Celtics’ early exit, front office dilemmas, and the Red Sox and Patriots’ woes.
• A deep-dive interview with Utah Jazz owner Ryan Smith, unpacking the Jazz’s lottery luck, team-building philosophy, NBA’s generational shift in ownership, and the experience of running both NBA and NHL teams.

The episode is fast-paced, irreverent, and occasionally existential as Simmons and his guests grapple with the overloaded sports calendar, the ever-shifting fortunes of hometown teams, and the future of professional sports.

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Key Segments & Insights

[04:35] - NBA Game 6 Storylines & Players to Watch

Bill’s Five Most Interesting Players Entering Friday’s Game 6s

• Julius Randle (Minnesota):
  Traded to the Timberwolves, Randle’s inconsistency is glaring. A lightning rod since game one, and now an obvious trade candidate.

  “When things start going against him, you can see it. He wears his emotions, he wears the ‘nobody believes in me’ mask.” (05:33, Bill Simmons)

• Devin Vassell & Julian Champagnie (San Antonio):
  San Antonio’s three-point shooters have been unreliable in this series, raising questions about their ability to close it out.

  “San Antonio, specifically, I don’t totally trust their three-point shooting. And I think this is the Achilles’ heel of the team.” (06:30, Bill Simmons)

• Jalen Duren (Detroit):
  Once pegged as a playoff difference-maker, Duren looks lost — possibly due to injury or contract pressure.

  “I always get really nervous when somebody goes full Section 8 Private Pyle in a playoff series—which is what’s happening.” (09:18, Bill Simmons)

• Max Strus (Cleveland):
  A “trick or treat” guy, Strus’s highs are game-swinging, but he’s wildly inconsistent.

  “When you watch him in game six, just think of the Macho Man (Randy Savage); it makes the Max Strus experience that much more fun.” (11:11, Bill Simmons)

• James Harden (Cleveland):
  Harden’s playoff legacy is under the microscope. Despite flashes of brilliance, his 2020s have been brutal.

  “Wouldn’t it be amazing if 36-year-old James Harden went on a heater right now? If it basically starts with the end of game three and he’s just awesome for the rest of this Detroit series and then goes into a Knicks series?” (13:10, Bill Simmons) “We’ve litigated this… his 2020s have been kind of secretly terrible. (13:25, Bill Simmons)
  Simmons wonders if Harden could redeem his playoff reputation or if inconsistency (and old narratives) seal his fate.

Playoff Predictions

• Simmons likes Cleveland to finish off Detroit; thinks the only way they don’t win is if Harden “completely sucks.”
• Spurs–Minnesota is unpredictable: it will swing on San Antonio’s three-point shooting.

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[23:48] – The NFL’s Schedule Glut: Is It Too Much Sports? (with Bryan Curtis)

The NFL's Scheduling Arms Race

• NFL is pushing into new calendar territory:

  • Week 1 starts on a Wednesday
  • 9 international games
  • Playoffs late into January, Super Bowl now on Valentine’s Day
  • Thanksgiving "Shock and Awe": 5 games in 6 days (Wed–Mon)

• Are We at “Peak Sports TV”?

  “This feels like peak sports TV. Except, I don’t know that we’re quite there yet.” (25:28, Bryan Curtis) “You can feel it. It’s the first time I ever remember feeling like I have trouble staying with everything… I just haven’t been able to watch that much.” (26:01, Bill Simmons)

Media Landscape in Flux

• UFC and WWE, among others, now strategically crowd previously “dead” sports weekends.
• Even heavy consumers like Simmons can’t keep up:

  “All the TV and movie stuff that’s out there too… it feels like there’s less breaths in the schedule.” (27:15, Bill Simmons)

  • The glut affects both fans and those covering the industry.

The Attention Economy & Changing Habits

• NFL wants to dominate holidays, stretching out its calendar, moving into Netflix and streaming slots.

• Streamers vs. Networks:

  • Networks need steady inventory (every Sunday game slots)
  • Streamers want impact events, not continuity
  • Amazon’s product integration; Netflix’s one-off focus; YouTube’s unclear sports strategy

  “If you’re a streamer, you can play around with stuff… what if we have old Mike Tyson come out and fight? You can just see what works.” (38:31, Bryan Curtis)

Downsides of the Glut

• Peak expansion means average games proliferate, especially at traditional TV windows.

• Longer regular seasons and expanded playoffs across leagues (NFL, NBA, College Football).

• Simmons: “Did we need a 7th team for every conference for the NFL playoffs?” (44:54)

• Peak sports leads to inevitable bloat, and once expanded, leagues never retract:

  “You can never take it back... because you’ll get money and who wants to give money back?” (64:54, Bryan Curtis)

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[73:10] – Boston Sports Therapy Session (with Bill’s Dad)

Celtics’ Collapse and Roster Future

• Celtics’ frustrating exit prompts deep soul searching:

  • “If the package was perfect for Jaylen Brown, I would move him in a heartbeat.” (75:21, Bill's Dad)
  • “I’m worried he’s turning 30. His athleticism is what made him the star he is… He can’t make free throws. He’s a black hole… Can’t dribble.” (76:11, Bill's Dad)
  • Simmons is higher on Brown due to durability, but sees stylistic tension with Tatum.

• Coaching Issues

  • Static offense (Tatum/Brown bringing the ball up), failure to tire out Embiid in series
  • Brad Stevens' end-of-year press conference marked by introspection and subtle criticism: “He seemed both pissed off that they lost to Philly... but also pointing out like he didn’t even think we were that good.” (80:36, Bill Simmons)

Big Picture: Boston Sports in Disarray

• All four teams (Bruins, Celtics, Patriots, Red Sox) facing major uncertainty or regression.

• Red Sox: “The Fenway Group has become the cheapest franchise in the league with the highest prices.” (92:50, Bill's Dad)

• Patriots: Recent off-field controversies taint otherwise promising storylines.

  “You can go online now and get great seats anytime you want… That’s a really shameful position that they've put the fan base in.” (94:34, Bill's Dad)

• Both Simmons and his dad express a sense of emotional exhaustion but remain hooked.

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[107:01] – Ryan Smith: Owning the Utah Jazz in a New Era

Jazz’s Lottery Luck & Rebuild Philosophy

• Smith superstitiously skips the lottery in Chicago, finally lands a “top 4” pick after years of futility.

  “Never, never, never [moved up]… the faith in the lottery system… is kind of sitting there you’re just shaking your head a lot.” (110:09, Ryan Smith)

• Defensive of the rebuild (“not tanking”), seeing it as the only viable path given the West’s superteams (OKC/San Antonio).

  “You look at San Antonio, who gets 2, 1 and 4 in three straight years… All of those guys are awesome, and they’re 20, 21, 22.” (114:23, Bill Simmons) “I don’t think there’s an ownership group that wants to go through this… But if we’re going to lay up in a weird way, like don’t lay up in the water.” (115:10, Ryan Smith)

• The tension between building a contender and the reality of star movement/free agency in a small market.

  “Could there be luxury tax stuff, benefits you get for just having stability?” (116:47, Bill Simmons) “What happens in smaller markets… There’s nothing you can’t do from Utah [or OKC or Denver].” (119:20, Ryan Smith)

Smith’s Ownership Style & Vision

• Homegrown investment:

  • Turned down Minnesota (almost closed a deal) for a chance to buy the team he grew up rooting for.
  • “If you’re lucky in life, you get to work in the NBA… No one gets the team they grew up sneaking into the arena and cheering for.” (124:26, Adam Silver, recounted by Smith)

• Building for the long haul:

  • An aggressive city-builder—announces plans for a new arena district, corporate partnerships
  • Now also owns the NHL’s Utah Mammoth.

• Leadership/Management

  • Steals three Celtics: Danny Ainge, (son) Austin Ainge (now President of Basketball), Will Hardy (head coach)
  • Emphasizes long-term buy-in, collaborative decision-making:

    “In our organization, they want to call me and talk about it. But they also know that if Will, Austin, and Danny are aligned, I’m going to have a hard time saying no.” (157:03, Ryan Smith)

NBA Big Picture & Expansion

• Sees the league shifting powerfully toward tech-heavy, deeply involved local owners.
• Global expansion is inevitable and net positive, even if it means more competition.

  “I look at it holistically as not a seller of the NBA… we truly have a world who wants that product.” (162:16, Ryan Smith)

• Acknowledges the Board of Governors room is full of “people used to getting their own way”—but the process works because stakes are so high.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Harden’s legacy:

  “Zach Lowe famously called him guard Karl Malone, which I don’t even know who that was more insulting for.” (13:41, Bill Simmons)

• On the NFL’s expansion:

  “The NFL just declared war on everyone’s lives. And we love the NFL and we’re addicted to it like it’s a drug and we can’t fight back.” (24:51, Bill Simmons)

• On sports memory under content overload:

  “Three months after the Winter Olympics, I couldn’t remember if we had the Winter Olympics yet.” (52:27, Bill Simmons)

• On the NBA expansion risk:

  “Whenever there’s a playoff expansion, I always get a little nervous because you can never take it back.” (64:54, Bryan Curtis)

• On Celtics fandom and malaise:

  “It makes no sense. And I’m not going to a game this year. I’m revolting.” (92:50, Bill's Dad)

• On new-wave NBA ownership:

  “The days of a family office running it on the side—those days are gone. They’re gone in every sport.” (154:08, Ryan Smith)

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Important Timestamps & Segments

• 04:35 – Bill’s Five Guys He’s Watching In Game 6s
• 23:48 – Bryan Curtis: "Peak Sports TV," NFL’s schedule glut
• 44:54 – Expanded playoffs and the point of no return
• 73:10 – Boston Sports Check-in/Therapy with Bill's Dad
• 107:01 – Interview with Jazz Owner Ryan Smith: lottery luck, owner philosophy, expansion, global vision

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Episode Takeaways

• NBA Playoffs as Stage for Reinvention (or Disappointment): Harden, Randle, and others face legacy-defining moments; one hit or miss could swing entire careers and franchises.
• Too Much of a Good Thing? Sports streaming and live events are now omnipresent, even overwhelming; even diehard fans admit to reaching their limit.
• Team Building is Strategic (and Emotional): Utah embraces long-haul planning, even as fans clamor for immediate results. Ownership is increasingly hands-on and tech-savvy.
• Boston’s Golden Era is Over (for Now): Celtics and Red Sox seem stuck, with the next move clouded by roster aging, failed trades, and a hostile fan–front office relationship.
• The "Attention Economy" Now Rules Sports: Leagues are programming around holidays, new nights, and chasing big streaming deals; there’s little sign of the pace slowing.
• NBA’s Future is Global & Tech-Driven: Expansion, youth-driven city growth, and digital strategy shape both league vision and local franchises.

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Tone: Candid, wry, layered with nostalgia and a bit of "old man yells at cloud" exasperation—balanced by genuine fascination about sports' next chapter.
Language: Conversational, anecdotal, full of inside jokes and Boston-specific references; technical when necessary.
Target: Any sports fan—hardcore or casual—will come away with a better sense of both the NBA’s on-court drama and the massive business/consumption shifts reshaping all of pro sports.

Transcript

[A]

This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra, the official beer partner of the NBA. With playoffs around the corner, now's a good time to create a tournament of your own. Compete to see who can predict the best playoff series or put your own basketball skills to the test. And the prize? A crisp Michelob Ultra Plus. They're giving fans a chance to win courtside tickets, prizes and more. Michelob Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Enter now at michelobultra.com courtside Michelob Ultra Courtsite 2526 no purchase necessary open to US residence 21/plus begins on October 1, 2025 ends on June 30, 2026 multiple entry periods. See official [e-mail] courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and prizes and details. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by fanduel. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. I put up a new rewatchables on Monday night. We did Tropic Thunder. We're doing comedies all month on Netflix. You go to Netflix, they have a million comedies. We've done a bunch of them on the rewatchables already, including Fletch, along came Polly, Ghostbusters, 48 Hours, the list goes on and on. And we've also done this month we did Tropic Thunder, we did Ghostbusters, we did that last month we did There's Something About Mary. And this Monday we're doing Borat, which is an absolutely hilarious movie. I've watched it once, I have to watch it again before we record the episode. But just laughing my ass off. This movie, it's 20 years old, it's still really funny. And it's gonna be Monday's rewatchable. So stay tuned for that scheduling stuff this Sunday. So I'm recording this on Thursday. We don't know what's going to happen in the game Sixes on Friday, Detroit and Cleveland and then San Antonio, Minnesota, who knows. So on Sunday we might be doing two podcasts with Zach Lowe. We might be doing a part one, part two after each game. 7. We might be just be doing one after the game Sevens or if there's no Game Sevens in just the game one. We'll be doing one episode, but we're going to be live on Netflix. And we'll let you know on social media what the what the time is if you want to join us. I'm looking forward to that. We have an action packed podcast on this one coming up after the break. I want to talk about five guys that I'm looking at heading into these game sixes that we have a doubleheader on Friday night. Really, really interesting night of basketball. Brian Curtis is going to join us to talk about the NFL schedule release was today, but just in general what the leagues are doing here with all of the games and is there just too much sports? Are we heading there or is too much sports a good thing? We're going to talk it out. My dad finally decided to come on after boycotting for a week and a half after the Celtics loss. But Boston sports is in shambles so had him come on and talk about it for 20 minutes. And then last but not least, Utah Jazz owner Ryan Smith, who's never been on the podcast, they finally got some luck with the lottery. His story is fascinating how we ended up owning not just the Utah Jazz but also the hockey team as well. And he hired the Angels from Boston and just a lot of stuff about what it's like to own an NBA team. So this is a long, fat, content filled podcast. It's all coming up next. We're take a break, bring in Pearl Champ and then I'm going to talk about the NBA. The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. It's been a wild play Efren. Not over yet. FanDuel wants to bring you closer to the court to make all of that action come to life for you, the basketball fan. Fanduel the best place to bet the team's players plays during NBA postseason. Build a same game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout or try live betting and jump into the action right after tip off whenever you want. That's the whole point of live betting. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app right now and play your game 21 select states are 18 DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Game problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat conn.

[B]

God waves change on me Mad.

[A]

All right, we have a Game six doubleheader on Friday night. Really intriguing. Game six is always intriguing, but I think these two for different reasons. Can't wait to watch. I've already broke the news to my wife that that's what's going to be happening for us on a Friday night. Cavs minus three and a half at home to finish off Detroit. Minnesota getting four and a half points trying to stay alive against San Antonio. And look, Minnesota looks like they're in trouble for different reasons than Cleveland. Looks like they have the upper Hand against Detroit, Minnesota just looks like a talent issue, especially with Edwards. Not 100% Cleveland. Detroit, this series has become more of a math problem where it just feels like Detroit's max is around 105 points. And if Cleveland could just get over that, they're going to win Detroit in the playoffs. 14th and threes, they've only made 10 threes a game, 49% on twos. 13th, they have the fourth highest amount of turnovers. They're almost at 16 a game, and they're just running out of guys that they can put out there in crunch time that they can trust. So I think they're in the most trouble of these four teams. But I have five guys I'm watching on Friday night for different reasons in the two series. First one is Julius Randle, who was a huge reason I thought that the timberwolves won game one and then has been a lightning rod ever since. 13 and 13 for 39 and three losses and has just looked really, really awful at times trying to challenge Wemby, trying to challenge what the spurs are doing to him. And it's like Randall has these moments where you've, like, I thought after Game one, I was like, he's the key to the series. I'm not sure if the spurs have guys to guard him. And then by the time you finish Game five, you're like, can they play Randall? I mean, this is the story of his career. He's made multiple NBA teams. We're always questioning how good he is. And I guess this is just who he is from a basketball standpoint. He's made next year he makes 33 million. The year after, he makes 36 million. So he's the most obvious trade candidate. And he's a guy that when things start going against him, you can kind of see it. He wears his emotions. He wears the nobody believes in me kind of mask on his face and can get really frustrated. And on top of all of this, Towns has been great in the playoffs for the Knicks. So you have this trade that was, I thought, one of the more fun trades we had this decade. And the Knicks are clearly now winning the trade. And Randall DeFincenzo, sadly, is hurt after the year. But Randall, the swing guy from Minnesota, and it might not even matter. He might be awesome in Game six and it might not matter with San Antonio, but I'm watching him. If he's bad. I don't see a world where Minnesota can win when Edwards isn't 100%. On the flip side, I'm going to lump these two together as my second guy Fassell and champagne on San Antonio. They made five threes a game during the season and shot 38% combined and I thought were pretty reliable. I always felt like their threes are going in in the series. They're 21 for 63, 33%, basically. I mentioned this because Wemby and Fox and Harper have been a disaster from three in the series. They're all 27% or worse. Wemby, I think, is a better three point shooter than that. Harper, what came in the league wasn't supposed to be a three point shooter. And Fox has kind of bounced around where there's. You watch certain games and you think maybe he can make them. Other times you never think they're going in. I mentioned all this because they lost game four. They were six for 26 from three. And if you're looking at like, how does San Antonio blow game six and how does this go back to San Antonio? Game 7 to me, forget the Minnesota piece. Forget how If Edwards is 90% healthy, 95% healthy, forget how great Wemby is, forget how awesome Dylan Harper has been as these players swung along. You can beat San Antonio simply if they miss threes. And I don't 100% trust their three point shooting. So I'm specifically watching Basell and Champagne because if they're making threes in the first half and Wemby's doing Wemby stuff and the heartbreak like San Antonio, that'll be it. It'll probably be like an 18 point win. But if the threes are starting to bounce around and they can't get into a rhythm, that's what I want if I'm a Minnesota fan. So you could say this about almost any NBA team. Like, ah, if the threes don't go in, it's tough to beat them. San Antonio specifically, I don't totally trust their three point shooting. And I think this is the Achilles heel of the team. The more I watch them and if it goes south in a game six and you go to a game seven and I'm still nervous about your three point shooting and Minnesota comes in as the fuck you alpha dog. Just trying to bully them and really test them and all of a sudden each guy's looking a little nervous taking those threes, that's the recipe for San Antonio blowing the series. I do not think that will happen. I would not bet on it. But it's a team that sometimes they'll be up 14 and all of a sudden they start looking A little creaky because the threes start bouncing around. So we will see. All right, Cleveland, Detroit. I assume San Antonio is going to beat Minnesota and I would probably not bet on game six. I think Detroit's done. I think they have slowly broken as this series has gone along and even game five which they play Paul Reed the entire fourth quarter and the entire overtime I think because my next guy on my list, Jalen Duran has gone south to the point that they just decided he couldn't be out there. He was a 2011 guy at Earth in the season 65% he's a 10 and 8 guy in the playoffs 50% there's some stuff teams are doing him in the playoffs we've talked about. They're just not guarding Thompson anymore. They're preventing Durham from rolling but his confidence really seems gone around the basket. These little flip shots that he used to make. Again I'll say it for the 19th time. I voted for him second team all NBA and I don't know what happened. I have a theory that I'll mention in a second. He also doesn't seem as explosive. There's a chance he might be hiding an injury even watching the way he's running and stuff. Who knows. But compounded with Stewart is just been basically unplayable in this series. Jenkins 21% from 3 now he's playing crunch time and hasn't been making threes at all. Holland can't shoot. Levert is a classic trick or treat guy. They can't find five guys to close games with. Robinson missed the game because he had back issues. I assume he's going to play game six so they have to go Cade, Thompson, Robinson, Tobias and Duran or or B ball Paul as as long as they could possibly go. That Duran lineup is plus 10 in the playoffs. Every non cade lineup's a disaster and it's like the old Doc Rivers theory of as the playoff series goes along the number of guys you could trust in this series starts dwindling and you started at 8 and suddenly you're at 7 then you're at 6 and Detroit just might be at 4. The Duran here's my theory. He's a restricted free agent this summer and I think especially after the season he had you assumed he would be getting a max or close to it like maybe something 40 million a year, maybe something close to that Jaren Jackson contract but he doesn't have it yet and now he's not playing well and teams have schemed him differently and to me this almost feels like he's unraveling a little bit. This happened for different reasons to Antoine Walker and the Celtics played the Nets two years in a row in 02 and 03. And Kenny Martin just for whatever reason had Antoine solved. He just had Antoine couldn't do anything against him. And I really think it changed Antoine's career. That and his free throw shooting went sideways, but he just was never the same. And with Duran, I would assume that's not going to happen. He's 22 years old, but I always get really nervous when somebody goes full section 8 private pile on a playoff series, which is what's happening. Like him, him not playing in the fourth quarter in OT is just. I just couldn't believe it. And the guy that we're watching does not resemble the guy from the regular season. So is he going to bounce back in Game 6 in Cleveland? Is this just going to get worse? I think you have to watch. We'll know in the first like six, seven minutes with him. The next guy, Max Struse, who single handedly swung game five, a notorious trick or treat guy. He'll do this twice a series where he'll look awesome. I did like the way he was defending Cade. If he's not the trick or treat guy for them, then it has to be Merrill, I think. But I think it needs to be one of those two. They need like that little influx. Schroeder's another one. Schroeder every year nobody wants Schroeder. And then in a playoff series you completely trust him. At some point we'll figure it out with him. Streuss when he's going, I really like how Cleveland looks and he fell in a place. I've never liked him because he was on Miami and the Celtics would always play him and he always felt like he was killing the Celtics. Even though you go back and look at the game logs and have like two good games in series, which is what he does. A reader named OVI Jacob mentioned that Strus is slowly morphing into the Macho man Randy Savage. And ever since I got that email, every time I watch Druce, it feels like he's reinvigorated. To me he really does kind of look like the macho man. I think you start talking to him, being like, oh yeah. But when you watch him in game six, just think of the Macho man. It makes the Max Druce experience so much more fun. We'll see if he swings. Game 6 Last Guy has to be James Harden. Has to be looked washed in game one and game two looked washed for the first, I would say 43 to 44 minutes of game three to the point that I didn't think he should be playing. And then huge game three ending. He was really good in game four. 11 assists, 24 points. And then he was their best guy in game five. He, him and Mobley. Mobley was really, really good. I thought, I thought Mobley was really good the last two games actually. But Harden had 30. And you know, it's weird. On the one hand he has 58 turnovers in the playoffs, 22 in this series. And there's moments when he just looks old and Detroit's made him look old and Asara Thompson looks like he's athletically at, you know, a different planet than 36 year old James Harden at this point. By the way, I did not think that was a foul on Asar Thompson. That's a no call. You can't decide a game on that. Sorry. Um, but Harden, he's played 185 playoff games, which has to be. I, I didn't look this up, but has to be like top five or top six ever. He hasn't made the conference finals in eight years. He made it in 11 and 12 with OKC. He made it in 15 with Houston in that crazy series where the Clippers should have beaten them in game six. And Harden was on the bench as the Rockets came back. So he like barely gets credit for that one. For me, 11 and 12. He was six man in OKC in 2018 was the one where he carried a team to the conference finals and then ended up losing to Golden State in the famous three point Rock fight that Houston just couldn't make anything after Chris Paul got hurt and hasn't made it since. So we've been talking about his playoff legacy or lack thereof. Zach Lowe famously called him guard Karl Malone, which I don't even know who that was more insulting for. But we've already litigated this. We've already the, the jury came out, came back in with a verdict. His 2000 and twenties have been kind of secretly terrible. And we'll get lost in the shuffle when we go through his career and you know how, how great it was in a lot of ways. But the playoff stuff was bad. But last year died against Denver, Game seven, like just really, really, really awful. And you can see it right away. 24 died in the last two Dallas games. 23 really died when he was on Philly in the last two Boston games. 22 Miami series did not end well, for him, 21, the last two, the Brooklyn series against Milwaukee when he was hurt. Hold that thought. That's probably my favorite James Harden playoff performance until what we've been seeing with Cleveland. But in the 2020s, 22, 6 and 8 stats are fine, but we were there, we know what happens and you just can't trust them. The irony of this, how amazing would it be if 36 year old James Harden went on like a heater right now? If it basically starts with the end of game three and it runs through and he's just awesome for the rest of this Detroit series and then goes into a Knick series and becomes this. By the way, he's been in the Western Conference his entire career except for that brief Brooklyn stint and that brief Philly stint, somehow never avoided, never ended up playing the Knicks. So I don't think he did. I don't remember James Harden playing Knicks. So James Harden in msg revamping his whole playoff legacy thing, pretty fun. Or it could be pretty painful, I don't know. I was thinking about his greatest playoff moments, though. You can think of the worst playoff moments and we could do that for an hour and I was trying to think what were the best ones. And honestly, nothing jumped to mind. And my mind drifted to 2021 when he was hurt on that Nets team. And his greatest playoff moment was probably with Zach Wilco, the greatest theoretical playoff team ever, when him and Kyrie and Durant were all healthy. But then I really liked how he played in that Milwaukee series after he was hurt. I thought he was like heroic in game seven, basically playing on one leg, doing everything he could to just try to set stuff up for them because he kind of had to play. And as crazy as that sounds, I think that was my favorite James Harden moment. All the other ones were kind of negative. He's in a situation right now with Mitchell where he can kind of drift back and forth and be impactful, but not impactful and do a little seesaw thing with Mitchell, which they figured out for the most part it's okay. But I like how this is lined up for them because they need Thompson to defend Mitchell. They can't play one of their other defensive swings because then they just don't. Detroit has no scoring at that point. I mean, you could argue maybe they just go all defense and throw away the scoring because they can't shoot anyway. But if Thompson's shadowing Mitchell and he's around them, then you're going to have to let Harden do what he's going to do against pick a swing man on Detroit. So it's set up for him here. And then against the Knicks next round they might be able to just try to hunt Brunson as much as they possibly can and and, or, or pull Towns out. Harden will be doing all his flopping stuff. This is kind of set up for James Harden to be like you thought I was dead. I'm not. You thought. You thought I was Guard Karl Malone. Watch this. Do I think this will happen? I don't. I do not. But it's in play. It's better than he was on the Clippers where he had no chance to do anything. I have hardened career wise. I have him in the mid-40s of my pyramid. I have him actually one spot higher than George Gervin and I have him two spots behind Sam Jones and Walt Frazier, who were two of the best clutch players in the history of the league and especially his guards. And the irony of those two being on a list and then it dropping and then going to Gervin who I wrote about this in my book but had a chance. He was up 3:1. I mean it's crazy. Gervin didn't make the Finals, but the bullet series for Gervin is kind of his version of a James Harden didn't do quite enough when it mattered and then Harden has a million of those. But um, who knows? Maybe. Maybe it's a better late than ever clutch situation for James Harden. Would I bet on this? I would not. We have no idea what to expect from James Harden. My prediction? I think Cleveland finishes. I think that I feel the same way that I felt about the Toronto Atlanta series. I think Detroit's going one direction and Cleveland has solved them in a lot of different ways. And the only way they don't win, ironically is if James Harden completely sucks. I think they're going to finish off Detroit Game six. I don't really know what's going to happen in Spurs. Minnesota. I would almost go with spurs win by double figures or Minnesota upsets them in wins. Watch the three point shooting. These games are going to be great and I can't wait to watch both of them. And then on Sunday talk to Zach Lowe about what happened and where we're going in round three. We're going to take a break. We are going to come back with my friend Brian Curtis. The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. FanDuel giving you better payouts on same game parlays all NBA playoffs long. We are almost halfway through the NBA playoffs. We still have more ways to build and more value every time you play. Stack your picks for every game, every minute, every round, whatever you want. From spreads to play player points to threes and more. Build it all into one same game parlay and go for bigger payouts. If you're betting same game parlays this NBA post season, bet them on FanDuel. More options, better payouts all NBA playoffs long. Head to FanDuel.com BS to get started. FanDuel Official Partner of the NBA Play your game 21 select states are 18 DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Restrictions apply. See [e-mail], game Problem Call 1-800-Gambler Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat this episode is brought to you by Holiday Inn by IHG if I'm ever traveling for work, which I try not to travel too often, but I do travel for work and where I stay is super duper important. I like an easy check in process. I like to be able to hang up all my stuff really quickly. I like a TV with a remote control that can do some stuff. I'm pretty easy for the most part, but I like to feel like it's just a nice place. This sounds like you check out. Holiday Inn has a whole new energy, especially for business travelers. You'll see it everywhere, from refreshed rooms to reimagined social spaces and dining done right with new drinks and dishes. And for business, there are flexible spaces that work for the way you work. It's a new day. It's a new stay. Book [e-mail]. all right, the ombudsman of my life is here. Brian Curtis, taping this before the NFL schedule release. I'm sorry to pull you away from the anticipation of just staring in front of your computer, just waiting to see who the Cowboys were playing in week 10. I never understood this day. I never I Kudos to them for blowing it out. There's stuff I want to talk about that I have nothing to do with. Scheduled day. But do you get scheduled day? What is this?

[C]

It's terrible. It really is terrible. The one they had this week where we're leaking Week two Thursday Night Football. Yeah, why not week one? Not Thanksgiving, not Christmas, Week two? Like, am I supposed to just schedule my life right now around week two, Thursday night?

[A]

Well, you already know who your favorite team is playing road and home before whatever. So I guess it's just for travel purposes. But leaking out all the international games and what their plan was for Thursday, Thanksgiving and Christmas Eve, all that stuff kind of defeats the purpose of scheduled day. That's not why we're here, though. I feel like there's a moment happening right now with professional sports and money and scheduling and trying to figure out how to justify all these giant media deals. And you can feel it happening in real time with college football, with the NBA, and with the NFL specifically. And the NFL now, they're going to have nine international games this year. They're pretty transparently discussing how the 18 week schedule is coming. You're seeing the owners just kind of leak that out the season. This year we're starting week one. It starts late this year, we're starting September 9th on a Wednesday. First week, we go Wednesday, Thursday, Sunday, Monday. The playoffs don't start until January 16th and the super bowl is on Valentine's Day. So they've just declared war on everybody's lives. And we love the NFL and we're addicted to it like it's a drug and we can't fight back. But is there a tipping point where there's just gonna be too much?

[C]

You know, remember that quote from the executive who said, we've reached peak TV ten years ago?

[A]

Right.

[C]

And it wasn't just about the quality of tv, it was about how much this feels like peak sports tv. Except I don't know that we're quite there yet.

[D]

Right.

[C]

Because as you mentioned, what's still out there, 18th NFL game expansion, maybe in every league, certainly the NBA, but maybe also hockey, baseball, bigger TV deals, more, you know, more sports scheduled on days we never used to have sports. I just feel like there's more out there somehow. Even though it feels like almost too much right now.

[A]

You can feel it. And I've talked about this before with the ufc and WWE have been really smart about strategically picking these weekends that were kind of dead weekends. Last weekend, which seemed like it was going to be a little bit of a slower weekend because basketball had finally slowed down, hockey had finally slowed down. It was a little more manageable. It was the, the week after the Kentucky Derby, and that's always a crazy first Saturday, Sunday. And yet last weekend had an. A pretty good UFC card. My son thought it was the best UFC card of the year. There was a WWE event that was being promoted all the time. This week has PGA tournament. It just feels like everybody's gotten better at both stretching out their schedules, but then also targeting dead weekends and then just kind of flooding us. And I'm. I'M it's the first time I ever really remember feeling like I have trouble staying with everything. Like there's, there's just too much. Like I haven't really watched a lot of the NHL playoffs this year and I usually love the NHL playoffs. I just haven't been able to watch that much.

[C]

I wanted to ask you about that. Cause ever since I've known you, you'll text me on like a Tuesday night and it's like you watching this Pelicans game. The announcer did something crazy tonight. Wait, what? That's on?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So I always feel like you're the highest consumption person I know, but you feel like you've reached your limit.

[A]

Well, especially. Cause all the TV and movie stuff, that's out there too. And then like Survivor 50 is really good this year. That's another 90 minutes that has now been thrown into my week. But the, the combo of the basketball with how the college football seemed to just get longer and longer and how January is now just absolutely loaded and we kind of finally get a breath in February. I'm complaining about free sports, although I guess they're not free cause we're paying for the streamers. But it feels like there's less breaths in the schedule. Whereas even when we started Grantland in 2011 and there was the NBA lockout and we were panicked, we were like, what the fuck are we going to talk about every week? What are we going to do? I remember when I was a kid when they had the baseball lockout in 81 and then the other one in 94 and it just was like traumatic. It was such a monkey wrench in the day to day life and there wasn't stuff to replace it. Now there's a million things to replace anything with. And I wonder if that's part of this is all the leagues in the sports field pressure to constantly be in front of us. Does that make sense?

[C]

It does. I mean, Thanksgiving Eve is the funny one for me that when you and I were growing up, what was Thanksgiving Eve? The Survivor Series. It's a Thanksgiving Eve tradition. And that's not a sports night I'd really spent much time thinking about at all. Yeah, the NFL schedule leak that just came out. Packers, Rams, Thanksgiving Eve. And that's a funny one, right? Cause we know when the NFL came for Christmas Day, they wanted to stomp on the NBA. When they started programming those Saturdays in December with really good games, they wanted to stomp on the College Football Playoff. Who are they stomping on on Thanksgiving Eve?

[A]

It's just attention. The attention economy.

[C]

Goes to your point though, they just want to be in front of us on another night and get the money they can get because you open up a new window and somebody's going to pay for it.

[A]

So everything crests with the NFL with this Thanksgiving thing, which you just brought up this Wednesday night game that they'd never had. Three Thursday, Black Friday, Sunday and Monday. There's gonna be five days out of six where we have NFL, including three on Thursday. So part of me wonders is the NFL just trying to break up families and trying to get everybody divorced? I think that has to be asked.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Right. More single, more single male sports fans. Maybe better for the NFL. I don't know what they're thinking there, but the Wednesday night thing blew my mind. Cause that's a pretty, you know, that's like when you're in college, you come back and you go out with your high school friends, right? When that's a day. Usually people travel. Like even we've, we've struggled with even trying to program that from a podcast standpoint because you can see the audience goes down for those five days because everybody's traveling, everyone's with family. People might watch football. That's it. And the NFL's like doubling down. We feel like we can actually own this entire stretch. Family and us does. Those are your two options. And Wednesday night is just aggressive. And part of it's Netflix. Netflix. It's great for them, right? They, they're like, they want these signature one off events versus like having the, the week to week stuff. So they have the Wednesday night opening game in Australia. They have the Wednesday night before Thanksgiving. That makes sense from a Netflix standpoint. I don't get it from an NFL standpoint except for money and attention.

[C]

Money and attention, which you can see because all these games on Thanksgiving are bangers, right? Packers, Rams, Bears, Lions, Eagles, Cowboys, Chiefs, Bills. And then the Black Friday game is Bronco, Steelers. So you're not just trying to dominate a holiday when you have a captive audience. You're trying to post a huge number, which really started last year. Remember they put Cowboys Chiefs on Thanksgiving. And what people forget is that game had more viewers than either of the conference championship games last year.

[A]

Unbelievable.

[C]

It was the highest rated non super bowl game of the season.

[A]

Right.

[C]

57 million people watch that game. So with the, it's almost just like you're, you know, shock and awe, trying to get fireworks. You know, you could put a crappy game on there and it would do very well because it's Thanksgiving, people are at home, they want to watch football. The NFL's not trying to do that anymore. They're just trying to completely dominate.

[A]

Also really hard to figure out what's an awesome game. I talked to Gabe Spitzer at Netflix about this. Cause he knew they obviously have at least some saying requests for what they could put in for the Christmas game. Right. And basically the only thing you can have some sort of sense of is who's playing who. So it's like, if we really like the Patriots and we really like the Chargers, could we make that a request and be like Patriots in LA against the Chargers? Can that be our Christmas game? But how do you know? Like we have like, would the Giants be a team you'd actually want to request for Christmas? Cause they have a fourth place schedule, they have a new coach start, they might be really good. Maybe they're this year's Patriots. Or would you say, well, the Patriots are in the super bowl last year, let's get them. And then they have the year from hell and they're 6 and 11 by the time the game happens. So yeah, I look at these things and it's like these games all look great, but the, the only one that's actually probably really reliable is Eagles. Cowboys. Because I know those two teams hate each other. Is Mahomes even going to be in that Chiefs Bills game? How's his ACL stuff going to go? Are the Bills going to be good? What are they going to look like next year? I just. You don't know. So on paper it looks great. But I understand the philosophy of the Packers, Rams, Bears, Lions. These are all like the signature teams in the league. Right. We have 12 out of 32. They're not putting the Panthers.

[C]

No.

[A]

Right. They're not rolling the dice with like the Raiders. Yeah.

[C]

And you're also putting something that's a rivalry no matter what.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So you're not doing Cowboys, Falcons.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Cowboys, Jaguars. Because that's like, you know, at the very least it's going to be a division grudge match.

[A]

All right, so let's say we're in the room, we're two of the owners and we're worth a lot of money. The league has all these media deals in place. They've figured out this roundabout way of using the Paramount thing and the chance to be able to renew to basically redo a bunch of their stuff at the end of the decade, combined with the NFL Network selling to espn. So now they've just kind of moved some games around and made Them worth more. It's like, yeah, we have these three doubleheaders, Monday Night Football, ESPN games. We're just going to grab those three and we're going to sell them. The highest bidder, Netflix or YouTube. You guys tell us we're going to sell the opening night game. NBC. Sorry, you don't have that anymore. Do you have a problem with that? Do you have a problem with that? What is NBC going to say? Hey, that's not fair. What they're really doing is weakening the Sunday Fox and CBS games. They're getting destroyed from the 1 o' clock and the 4 o', clock, or in our case on the West coast, the 10 o' clock and the 115, whatever they are. I think those games are going to probably suck this year. Right?

[C]

I agree. And this is what happens with peak sports tv is you do hit the wall. There just aren't that many good games. Now, fantasy and gambling can make a bad game into a watchable game for some people, but there just aren't that many at the end of the day, which is where you get to 18th game, where you get to expansion, right? Then they start to. The wheels start to go in motion. But you're right, man, if you're an NFL owner right now, just think about this, how far We've come from 1993 when Rupert Murdoch came in with crazy money. $400 million a year. $400 million a year. I remember talking to Jerry Jones one time and he was like, when they brought that offer in, he was sitting next to Pat Boland, the owner of the Broncos, and he goes, brian, we were just kicking the shit out of ourselves under the table, just kicking each other with $400 million. This is amazing, right? Can you IM how many broken femurs there would be for all the money going around? Cause there's like three Ruperts right now. You know, you have so much crazy money because the streamers want in, they want more NFL. And the networks know that if they lose the NFL, they're toast, they're gone.

[A]

And then you have, you have streamers versus networks with two different agendas that are perfect for the NFL, right? If you're a network, you want the continuity of every Sunday I have a game. Every Sunday night, I have a game. Mondays I have a game versus Netflix, YouTube, Amazon, they're like, we just want like impact. Amazon's a little better at the continuity stuff. Netflix didn't want to have a weekly game. They wanted to, you know, their schedule. The way it works is they Want to populate their main screen with like, here's the biggest thing this week. So they only needed like three or four YouTube. YouTube's the one. I can't really figure out what they want. Cause they already have the Sunday ticket. And just having these one off games. I don't even does YouTube. Even this almost seems like a vanity thing for YouTube. Like, we're YouTube. Watch this. We have NFL, but it's not like they need it. I think Netflix needs it a little bit.

[C]

The streaming strategy is fascinating. And also because they can always change their minds.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

The networks are like, as you say, we need Sunday football. We need these two time slots. Or if you're NBC, we need the night game. We need that every week. That's like part of that's. That's what we have to have to keep this network alive. But if you're a streamer, you can be like, you know what? We're not interested in full seasons. Oh, wait, renegotiations coming up a couple years from now. We are interested in full seasons, it turns out, because football's so popular.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

I would argue for prime, having the Thursday Night Football has been really good for them.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And they figured out their strategy with all their sports stuff is, I think, a little different than anyone because a lot of it's ad driven. I think eventually they're gonna have a lot of product stuff on there that you're gonna see over the next five, six years. They're gonna figure out a way to integrate. When you're on Prime. Oh, I like that ad. You click a button and all of a sudden I'm buying a pan or I'm buying Dave Chang's cooking something with some momofuku sauce. I'm like, oh, that sauce looks good. And all of a sudden I'm ordering it. So they have their own set of agendas. Netflix has the we're in front, we're the leaders. We just need to keep populating our stuff. With one off stuff, whether it's the Kevin Hart roast one week or Stranger

[C]

Things or NFL elderly Mike Tyson.

[A]

Right. Or the press box with Brian Curtis, Whatever it needs to be.

[C]

We're still waiting on the call up on that one.

[A]

It might be, I think they're waiting to see how many football games they were getting. YouTube. I don't understand their strategy. I can't really elaborate because I think sometimes. And you saw this with Amazon, with the Masters, to me, that's a pure vanity move. They don't really need the first round or first two Rounds of the Masters. Right. But you get it. And now all the higher up level suits are like going to Augusta. We have the Masters and now basically you're in this secret society for. You just get to go in, play the chorus, you get to worm around. I don't really understand YouTube. So what is YouTube? What do you think is motivating them?

[C]

Well, I'm kind of with you. I don't know if they know what their strategy with sports is yet, but there's this great luxury at this point in history to not know if you're Fox. You can't lose the NFL because then it's the Masked Singer and season 800 of the Simpsons and that's it, right? You're toast. Yeah, but if you're a streamer, you can play around with stuff. You know, what if we have old Mike Tyson come out and fight? What if we have Mayweather, Pacquiao? What if we have a guy climb a building? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like you can play around and just sort of see what works. You know, you still have to hit numbers and all that kind of stuff. But like, I don't know. And to me it's like building a sports division is a big step up, right? Dabbling in sports, saying, hey, let's go get Ian Eagle and let's go get Greg Olson and let's, you know, put together a little fantasy announcer booth and, you know, get one of the networks to produce a game for us. That's dabbling, right? That's a level. If you say we want a sports division where we have people hired working for us all the time, week after week of NFL program, that's a lot. It's a lot of money. And it also takes a lot of talent and know how and when you and I have seen this, you know, week after week watching the NFL, not every network is as good at that as others. So then you bring yourself under this microscope. Are we doing this right? Do our games suck? Do our replays suck? Do our announcers suck? It's easier to dabble.

[A]

Yeah. And they're listening to all the media critics and podcasts like this, and that's where they're getting feedback from, basically, because they know not to trust social media and things like that. So it's. First of all, you cannot listen to anything or you can be like, did we do that? Like when Amazon, when they had the outage during the. What was it? The last minute of what was it the playing game or. It was the playing game. Right. It was Charlotte and Amazon just disappeared for 20 seconds and everyone nuts. Like, that's a catastrophic moment for, for people running sports in Amazon. That's your worst case scenario, 100%. But for the most part, I don't know these. It's. It's pretty hard for an announcer to ruin a game. It's pretty hard for a production to ruin a game if you care about who's playing. And you know they can, they can only do so much. Like NBC has thrown away the pregame and halftime shows for every sport they've covered for the last 20 years. Nobody really cares, right? Like the basketball show. Now I don't know what they're doing, but nobody cares. It doesn't matter with the football piece. So if they add another week and it's clear they want to go now, I thought it was really notable that they pushed the super bowl all the way to February 14th. The Super bowl always, without fail, has been the first Sunday in February. And it's either February 1st through February 7th, without fail.

[C]

Single digits, no longer single digit number.

[A]

Now we're at 14. And I almost feel like it's a fear to see this is how it's going to work for us when we go to 18 weeks. What kind of number do we get if we push it back? And I don't know where this part ends either, because think about this from the beginning. And they're also insisting on doing the preseason. So you're talking August all the way through February now. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. That's seven months. It's not a seven month season. That seems crazy to me, right?

[C]

It does, it does. But if you were going to grow, wouldn't you grow into February, Right?

[A]

Like staggered through the way. I don't know. There's something about the way the schedule was set up. Where college started, people were kind of back from summer break and all that stuff. Kids went off, school started for little kids, kids are in college. And then the NFL would start and now it seems like they're kind of conceding that territory to college football. And college football's the other one that like Indiana's first game Last year was August 19th. Their last game was January 19th. It's a five month schedule, not counting all the practices. So you're showing up in Indiana in mid June and you're going all the way through the middle of January. That's insane.

[C]

Week zero is like one of the concepts that makes me laugh about peak sports tv, which we got to in college football. We have week one, but before week one we have Week zero and there are games, it's like. But zero's not a week.

[A]

They're not good games. So it doesn't count as a week. But it's week two.

[C]

But it's something to watch. But February, to me that's always been the dead zone of sports. I think there's a famous quote where somebody asked a sports writer, why'd you quit and said February? Because there's anything to write about. So if you're the NFL, what if we stretch that another week and we just keep going and bet that you're not going to want to watch regular season NBA as much as you're going to want to watch us?

[A]

Right. February was always first for the sports community. It was vacations. There was always conferences in February and early March. It was always kind of the time everybody reset and then March Madness would hit. Now March Madness is going to get longer. Like what are they? What do they. Didn't they add like another 14 teams or something? And they were about to.

[C]

They did. Because, you know, six odd teams wasn't enough to pick a champion.

[A]

This is one of the things I wanted to talk about. These different leagues are doing stuff that everybody is like, please don't do this. Like not only the fans, but the people that play and coach the sports are like, yeah, don't do this. And whoever's in charge is always like, nah, actually we're going to do it. Thanks for the input. Like the NBA, I think pretty consistently across the board everybody is saying the season is too long. Kurt Goldsberger had a great piece for us today about all the leg injuries and it's something him and I had been talking about behind the scenes for months about. Is there a way to, to actually capture did something change? Because you could see in the basketball reference minutes from 12, 13 years ago, like the league leaders in minutes versus the league leaders. Now people are 500 minutes less. It doesn't make sense. But it does make sense when you watch how it's played. All the leg injuries and

[B]

where are

[A]

we going with all this stuff?

[C]

The bet that's being made is that they will take the money and they will watch us roll our eyes and they'll say, you're going to watch anyway. I know you're going to watch. And let's you and I could do a self audit about this. Right. Did we need a seventh team from every conference for the NFL playoffs?

[A]

Absolutely.

[C]

We didn't. Those teams have sucked by and large year after year. Did you not watch those games involving the seventh team.

[A]

That was one where I was like, you got me. I kind of like this. Yeah. I wasn't against that idea. If they added two more teams, I think that's now a mistake.

[C]

NBA play in game. I think you're pro, if I remember correctly.

[A]

Yeah, I'm pro, you're pro. I've enjoyed it.

[C]

So they bet that they could have teams that would often have a losing record or be right around 500 and they put them in the postseason of the. Bill Simmons would watch. And you watched NBA Cup.

[A]

I watched. Am I a bad barometer though? Because I'm going to watch anything.

[C]

Yeah, but I'm just. What I think is like, what would the backlash look like? What if, you know, what would the NFL have to do to actually put a number on the scoreboard where they hated that?

[A]

This is a good question because somebody asked me this, what's the number for each sport that would make people go, what the fuck are you guys doing? Right. Which. So the NFL said, we're going to have a 20 game schedule next year. People would be like, what? No, no, no, no, no. We're tapping out. You can't do that. And I think for the NBA, just staying even is about as far as they can push it. Like if they went up to 90 games, I think honestly people would revolt.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

I think that would be awful. College football, I don't know what the number is. Indiana played 16 games last year. Yeah, like think about that. That's, that's more than the 1972. As many as the 1972 Dolphins played.

[C]

Oh my God. And somebody was at the University of Texas. You know, in an 11 game college football world, it feels like a ton. But I've watched every week of it.

[A]

Right.

[C]

It's amazing and it's, it's, it's fun. Everybody's like, oh, this sucks. It's a new world. It's like, eh, I haven't reached that point yet.

[A]

So you're good as. You're good from late August all the way through January for college football.

[C]

I mean, I tell you what, you know me like, I'll watch any football game starting Thursday. I'll watch all day Saturday and I'll watch all day Sunday. Sunday ticket by Monday. Now I'm dragging a lot. Yeah, I'm just like Joe and Troy, come on. I'm like, I'm not, not watching this, but I feel like I'm dragging.

[A]

You're worn out. That's what that first weekend of the NBA playoffs is like. By like the eighth game, you're like, oof. Neither.

[C]

I love this. I'm in. But I'm dra. This is. I'm tired.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I'll tell you what it is, is, you know, you've heard all these people talk about how confusing the world is now with the streaming services and how hard it is to watch things. They're not wrong, but they also lack the historical perspective of you and I, where it's like, it is also in certain ways, easier to watch everything now.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

There are more college football games at the click of a button than there ever were when I was a kid. Even when I was in college. Texas used to have a pay per view game when I was in college. Like, here's one of our crappy games. Let's just put it on pay per view. If you didn't come to the stadium like it is now, there's so much. It's easy to watch stuff now. Is it a pain in the ass to go from streamer to streamer and back and forth to television? Yeah, it is. It totally is. I understand that. But there's tons of stuff on. There's tons of stuff on without really trying to watch anything.

[A]

Yeah. My life has spanned this entire kind of run we've had because I'm old enough to remember game six of the 1981 finals. Tape delayed in Boston. This is the Celtics winning The title was not on live. And I was in fifth or sixth grade and had to go to bed then wake up for the game. My dad woke me up at 11:30 so we could watch the game to see what happened. The other choice would have been to just listen to it on the radio. But when you think about all the NBA games that were lost over the years, they were NFL. I've talked about this before, but it sucks so much to be an NFL fan. If you were in a city, if you were like a Jets fan and you're living in New York City and they would do the thing where they would.

[C]

That sucks to begin with.

[A]

Well, that would sucks to begin with, but they would show Jets, Giants, you would only have two games. So it'd be one and one. And no thing can compete with the home team. And that was it. You didn't get to watch any other teams. So you're really tied to the little game breaks, the halftime stuff, the highlights, the ticker on the bottom, that was kind of all we had. So I look at the stuff now where we're arguing about, it's really hard to find where every single game is on, like That's a decent problem to have. I think what's weird to me is like the Lakers playoff game the other night in LA was not on normal tv. And that's where this goes back to the question of how much money is enough to actually make it less likely people are going to like your sport? Because there's just. LA is a huge city, it's got people of all kinds of backgrounds and there's people that just aren't going to pay for Peacock in la. Right. That probably love the Lakers that either had to go to somebody's house, so had Peacock, or just had to find out what happened afterwards. And that's where I think you lose the narrative a little bit. At the very least. Like the games in the local cities I feel like should be on normal tv.

[C]

That reminds me of old school NFL when there'd be a Cowboys game when I was a kid that wasn't sold out by Friday. And you start to hear the sports radio thing. It's like, oh, should we get tickets? We're not gonna be able to watch the game.

[A]

But they got the home blackout.

[C]

The home blackout, which is now. Nobody even understands that concept. Back in the day there'd be this thing. Remember that end of the week.

[A]

Well, you have to explain this. Cause there's probably people listening who don't even know what you're talking about.

[C]

You had to sell out the game or it wouldn't been. Wasn't on local television.

[A]

So if you lived in Cincinnati and The Bengals were 10,000 tickets. Sh. The team would then have to decide whether they wanted to buy the 10,000 tickets themselves so their fans could see the game.

[C]

They would give them to charity sometimes. That was. I remember that being a thing. But you'd start to hear this murmur late in the week. It's is it time to go buy tickets?

[B]

Right.

[C]

Because otherwise we're not going to be able to see the game again. It's just like a totally different era of sports. But was that the. Was that the Laker game? That was a $90 get in price. That was the cheapest Laker ticket of the season. Was that game four versus okc. Do you see that?

[A]

Yeah, they got knocked out. Right? Well, that's happening now with World Cup. The tickets are starting to drop big time. Remember they priced it at all these crazy heights and now it feels like the get in price is going to keep going down. World cup is another thing. I mean, you could argue this is the craziest sports content year we've had. Olympics football, getting Longer. Adding World Cup. When does Winter Olympics start?

[C]

We did it.

[B]

We did it.

[A]

That's right, Bill.

[C]

I got bad news. That shows you how much I watched 2-6-22nd. You might remember some hockey.

[A]

Yeah, I did watch the woman's hockey and the men's hockey. That's. But honestly, that's how much sports I've watched. I don't. All this stuff is starting to blend together.

[C]

Dude, I'm with you. I just feel like. I mean, I'm like, Mike. Mike to. I feel like Mike Tirico. We're just, like, rushing off to call another huge event the Hughes brothers.

[A]

It feels like it happened 10 years ago.

[C]

It does. It is so much stuff.

[A]

Three months ago.

[C]

It's so much stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Again, like, I think if you went to young Bill and young Brian, it'd be like, this is a dream. Because do you remember those nights where you'd be like, there's nothing on. I'd kill to watch a sport.

[A]

I'm starting to really have trouble, as I just proved with the Winter Olympics. The stuff is just going in one ear and out the other when you're watching it. And unless it's something I really have to focus on, which is basically, for this podcast, NFL and basketball. I'm just finding the baseball playoffs last year, which I watched a ton of. And now if you quiz me on what happened in the 25 playoffs, I'd be like, well, Dodgers played the Blue Jays. I remember that.

[C]

Game seven.

[A]

Who did the Blue Jays beat in the previous round?

[C]

Starts to get iffy.

[A]

I'm like, I don't know. I watched it. I never used to be like that.

[C]

Mariners, Mariners. Blue Jays. Mariners.

[A]

I think Mariners. That's what it was. It was the Mariners.

[C]

Between the two of us, we can reconstruct the last six months of sports. We'd have to help each other.

[A]

Well, it's like, I had Letterman on last week, and one of the things I asked him was about, like, with the 6,000 shows, do you, you know, he did 6,000 shows across the board? Do they all start to blend in together after a while? He's like, yeah, I don't, you know, remember little pieces. But you don't remember, like, the. Like, when Jimmy Kimmel goes on his show for the first time on Letterman's show, he remembers every moment of it. And I wonder with sports, the influx of it, if that's just gonna be what happens with our memories where there's so much content, there's so much glut, that three months after the Winter Olympics. I couldn't remember if we had the Winter Olympics yet. And part of it's the media.

[C]

It just. Everything goes fast. I was looking at. For some reason, I went to ESPN.com's homepage. I'm not totally sure why the other day, but I went to the homepage.

[A]

What was that experience like?

[C]

It was different. Kind of like going to the old apartment building you lived in when you were a young adult.

[A]

They didn't have archives for their writers anymore. If you've ever written, you're like, you just have to hope they wrote something.

[C]

It was like going to the old apartment. The apartment had been turned, torn down. That's what it was like. But I can't remember. It's one of these sports stories that leaked out of your brain and mine, but some huge sports story the night before, and it just wasn't. It was barely on the homepage. And I don't even blame espn. It's just the world moves very fast now. You know, there's not the SI cover that comes out on Thursday. And you're like, okay, yeah, that was a week. That was what happened this week.

[A]

Right? Our brains are just.

[C]

Ugwood's like, oh, there's something. There's a WWE thing tonight. What's up? What's going on? Ronda Rousey, and it's fighting tonight. Okay. And you just sort of ping pong to the next thing.

[A]

It couldn't have been this much slower 45 years ago.

[C]

I think it was. I honestly. You know what? I don't think the. I think if you and I were like a living agate page, it wasn't that slow because there's just a lot. There was a lot going on, but we just couldn't watch it. We didn't have access to it. Not on a Tuesday night.

[A]

Well, I wonder if part of this. So social media basically starts for what it looks like now, probably like 18 years ago, 2008, 2009 range. Sure. Before we were in the bookmark economy, if I wanted to find out about anything, I had my whole slew of bookmarks. I had websites I went to, I had writers I liked. I had a couple message boards for my favorite team, like the old school message boards. That was really it. And I would start my morning and I would just go through all the bookmarks. Now I just probably go to Twitter or I go to a couple of the Boston sports Reddit pages, and that's kind of what I do. But I'm like, I wish I. I wish I could actually Go back to the old bookmark thing, but if you'd be bookmarking things that wouldn't even be able to know how to serve you the content correctly. And the ringer is kind of anomaly in that respect. You can go to our website still and see all the stuff we have. There's not a lot of places that are easy to do that now. Apple News is one that I always go to now every day, and I always look to see because I, I subscribe to that. I get all the different websites and they, they do a pretty good job of curating what's going on. And that's like the closest I have to a book market experience now.

[C]

I agree, because if you're anywhere else, people. And again, we've benefited from this being in the sports business, but everybody jumps on small things now. So it feels like nothing is, it feels like everything is big. People are like, I mean, just imagine when we were young, Mel Kuyper seemed like a lunatic because he cared that much about the NFL draft, and now he's a normie because every Twitter account you follow cares about the draft and is already caring about next year's draft, even though it just ended. And so just everything seems big, you know, it's just everything seems important. And then I think at the end of the day, nothing seems important or

[A]

as important or everything seems big. But it's not like the J, like for the Boston fans right now, the Jaylen Brown, Jason Tatum trying to interpret all these little weird videos. I'd almost like if we had this in 1982, this is all I would have done as a little kid is tried to figure out, wait, Mikhail doesn't maybe like Bird and just gone. Driven myself crazy. Now you can, you know, Jalen's done multiple twitch streams. He just did some other interview. Tatum now just did an interview. Then the people around them. Then you have tmac being able to dine on a weekend of pretending he hadn't talked to Jaylen Brown when he obviously did. And all of it's kind of meaningless. Like we're going to go through it now with Giannis over the next couple weeks as people decide if he's going to get traded. And that's, that's another thing is like people trying to sift through the bullshit of the quote unquote information reporters. Is this actual information or is this there an agenda behind this information? What. How do I, you know, in real time? You're trying to decipher it like a police detective.

[C]

What are the next few weeks of LeBron going to look like.

[A]

Speaking of which, we already started this week with the. The weird McMenamin story about he was upset that JJ Redick got a game ball and he didn't. So he walked out of the locker room. I was like, what is this? You're 41. They already told you you're the third best guy in the team.

[C]

It's like one last time, right? Like when they have the movies, you know, the action movie with all the elderly action stars. This just feels like, we got one. We got one more in us.

[A]

Well, this is what I've been pushing for with the warriors for weeks, and I actually think has a real chance to happen is LeBron going to the warriors with Curry, with Draymond. They trade Butler's contract and a pick for Anthony Davis, and they just do the old guy team and just go and sell out in every NBA city. And if you're LeBron, you have two choices. You either see, now we're doing a LeBron segment. You can't fucking resist. It's like heroin. But if you're LeBron, you either take the minimum and try to win a title, or you do the Expendables in Golden State, and you just have this two year. You know, you're everywhere. You're a sellout everywhere. You're the biggest story wherever you go. And in a weird way, you've stolen some spotlight from OKC in San Antonio. Who are the teams that are gonna win the titles the next couple years? But you have something different. You're basically like in the Hulk Hogan after he gave up the title to the Ultimate Warrior. But he was still the biggest sellout that they had. But he didn't need the title or, like, what Andre the Giant was like. I think that's what's sitting there for LeBron. I think that's his only move left. But this goes back to the attention economy. If they do that, there'll just be stories that come out of that all the time, which is one of the reasons you would do it.

[C]

You think LeBron's interested in the attention economy?

[A]

I do. I do. I do think he is.

[C]

Do you think Draymond Green's jokes would go over better with LeBron than they did with Charles Barkley?

[A]

What'd you think of that? I know you talked about it, but tell my audience.

[C]

I just watched that moment. I'm like, is Draymond Green? Are we sure that. First of all, are we sure that he's good? Maybe we're past that as an Announcer. But second of all, to be a good announcer, I think you just have to have that ability to let people make fun of you a little bit. Do you have the ability to eat it? Charles Barkley has a great ability to eat it. Stephen A. I was saying this. When the Knicks lose to the Thunder in the finals here in a couple of weeks, Stephen A. Is going to come on there, hang his head on the show.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

4 0. I can't believe it. I was so excited. And he's going to let himself be vulnerable. Can Draymond do that on television?

[A]

There's that, and then there's also, as we've talked about many times, when you do those shows, it's professional wrestling, and you have to sell the other person's moves 100%. And I don't know if he's a move seller.

[C]

You have to let the other guy get their stuff in.

[A]

Yeah. Like, there's a respectfulness that you have to have in that situation if you're him. Even though I thought Barkley definitely seemed to be provoking him a little bit, which I didn't think got enough. You know, he's basically just saying to his face, you guys are done. It's over. You know, and it probably odds are Draymond Green is going to handle that that well. But then he handles it the wrong way and comes back at him with something that wasn't even really factually accurate, and it was just awkward. You know, it's like exactly what you don't want when you're on those shows. Like, you watch the Amazon show, which I think is the closest we have to a good show right now. There's a mutual respect with all those guys. They're not going to hang each other out to dry. But in general, the inside the NBA piece is interesting because it's the first time they've really had backlash. And I don't know how much of it is fair and how much of it isn't fair, but they've also been in everybody's life for such a long time that it's kind of. This is an inevitable way that this could probably end. But that whole thing has felt off the whole year. I love that show, but the ESPN fit some of the time that they have. The fact that they don't have the same time they had after the games, which is when I really thought that show was at the most important. And to me, like, Shaq. Shaq is the biggest issue with the show. Like, it just doesn't seem. It seems like he's there because it's fun to be on the show. But it doesn't seem like he follows basketball at. At a high enough level anymore. Like, he doesn't know who people like Baylor Shireman are. Like, you're on a studio show covering a sport. You know, you. You have to. There has to be some sort of a modicum of following the game. So it just feels. It's a little like watching the warriors, ironically, where it feels like they're having trouble trying to reinvent themselves.

[C]

It's an interesting experiment of can you take something that's so awesome in one place, that is a Turner network, and just transport it to the other place? Would it be the same? And the answer is no. Kind of the same. Same in a lot of ways.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, when they were doing their obits the other night, that had, you know, that felt like inside the NBA. Yeah.

[A]

They were talking about Ted Turner.

[C]

That felt like inside the NBA. But then there are moments where you're like, something just feels different.

[A]

They have a chance to flip the narrative again. These next couple rounds, I think. I think, you know, the basketball's better. There's more of a spotlight on them. It'll be easier for somebody like Shaq. Cause there's only four teams left. He can just watch the game and

[C]

figure out he knows the players.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Know who shaky Gilgis Alexander is. But, yeah, look at this is. This is what happens. One other thing I had for the schedule stuff before we go. So the NBA season, 82 games, six playing games, four playoff rounds. Conceivably, a playing team could play 114 games in a year. Cleveland and Detroit, we'll see what happens tomorrow night. Are on pace for 28 playoff games. So combined with the 82, that's put you at 110. I can't remember what the record is, but I think the. I want to say, like the. Oh, maybe the 05 Spurs. Somebody in the mid 2000s played like 100, 809 games.

[B]

Something crazy.

[A]

There's no world in where the basketball. They'll scale back to schedule. I don't think.

[C]

They're not giving money back.

[A]

It's actually more likely they're going to add teams.

[C]

Yes. And create more inventory.

[A]

Hockey's definitely adding more teams.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

The wnba, to everybody's horror, definitely adding more teams. More teams, which people are just stupefied by. And then baseball might be adding more

[C]

teams, which was dead five minutes ago. And then now it's back. Yeah, I'm just. Here's the thing. Whenever there's a playoff expansion. I always get a little nervous because you can never take it back.

[A]

Right.

[C]

You know, we're talking about this with college football now, right? Are they going to go to 16? Are they going to 24? You know what's going to happen there? And the thing is, I'm always like, I would be happy to experiment for a year and see how we feel about this. But the thing is, you can't do that. It will never come back because you'll get money and then you'll say, well, who wants to give money?

[A]

I'm trying to think, have they ever unwound? They really haven't. The only thing they've ever unwound was the 232 of the NBA Finals going back to the 2211 1. But that wasn't taking away games.

[C]

It wasn't taking away games. And it just, it feels every. I mean, it's like, you know, it wasn't that long ago the college football was two teams. That was.

[A]

That was it.

[C]

Right? It was the. You had the Bulls, but It was the BCS matched 1 and 2 and that was it. And then you bigger and bigger and you can never go back. And that's the thing. In a just world, you'd be like, okay, we did too much. Let's just scale it back a little bit. But we know that would never happen.

[A]

It's weird when everybody in the league seems to think the NBA should cut 10 games, and yet there's no way they will.

[C]

And the. And the players are cutting 10 games.

[A]

It's just.

[C]

They still play them. You know, the players just sit out.

[A]

Well, the irony is when they get NBA Europe going. I'm talking about that later in the podcast with Ryan Smith, briefly, because the Utah Jazz owner was on. Is coming on later. There's probably a world where if they can get. I'm talking 25 years from now, if NBA Europe can get to the place it needs to get to, where we just have an actual world championship, where they have the schedules kind of aligning and then it's like a best of three with the champion of the NBA and the champion of the. Or they play it in October of the next year, however they do it. I just feel like if you gave Adam Silver, if you got him drunk and gave him some truth serum, I

[C]

would think he'd be like, this is

[A]

what I'm really thinking, the actual world championship. Because the league's in a crazy spot where most of the best young players are from. Not here, which Perkins has been Talking about on tv, he's making it seem like we've lost our cars to Japan. We're losing. We're losing basketball. It's like, people are fine. Basketball's still good. I don't really care where the guys are from. But it is a little weird.

[C]

So we'll get a world championship and then guess what? We'll have more games.

[A]

Then I'll be like, should the world championship be three or five games? It should be seven. What about nine?

[C]

I don't know.

[A]

What.

[C]

What month can we put it in?

[A]

You know, so it sounds like to recap, you're not delighted by the NFL ads, but you'll also watch all the games every week, which is where. That's where we are. I've Stan college football. You're okay with more football?

[C]

Yeah. I mean, it did feel like a grind. I remember when Joel and I went to the national championship a couple years ago for the ringer. And it was on a Monday, remember? And it would been like a huge. I think it was a divisional round of the NFL the night. The day before. And I was like. And we like, Monday, we get to the stadium in Atlanta. We're looking at each other like, whoa, this is a lot. That was a national championship NBA, you'd go lower. Lower.

[A]

And then baseball, which is headed for a strike. I wonder where they're going to end up.

[C]

It feels like the season could easily be shorter.

[A]

That's one where, especially with the pitcher injuries and how hard it is just to keep everyone healthy. Feels like 144 would be perfect. But then you throw away all the records. Yeah.

[C]

And they lock. We all lock into the playoffs. Like, here we go.

[A]

Yeah, you could you in baseball. It feels like you could actually make the baseball playoffs maybe even a little longer. Well, we'll see.

[C]

Yeah. And again, I don't want. I don't want to go there because once we do that, we'll never go back to the current stage.

[A]

You know, the only one that I kind of like is the PGA where

[C]

move to the spring.

[A]

Yeah. Just the PGA being like, you know what? We're doing some of this wrong. We gotta have more west coast stuff. We gotta have more stuff in primetime. Let's like rethink some of the. Some of our ideas. But the PGA is not going. We have more majors now. We're now having six like the pga. That having the four majors, I think has been really. I think like they have four anchors in their schedule that the casual fans like myself can just jump in and be like, oh, PGA's this weekend. Here we go. All right, Brian Curtis. How's it going with Joe Anderson?

[C]

Love the guy.

[A]

How's it going with Shoemaker?

[C]

You know, I love the guy. I want both those guys. It's all Texans on the press box somehow.

[A]

I've been working with you and shoemaker now for 15 years.

[C]

Can you believe that?

[A]

It's a long time. We're sending, like, our work relationship to the ninth grade in high school. That's how long we've all been together.

[C]

In a couple of weeks, it'll be 10 years at the Ringer.

[A]

Yeah, I can't believe that.

[C]

10 years together on this website.

[A]

Unbelievable. All right, Brian Curtis, great to see you. Thanks for popping on.

[C]

Thanks, Paul.

[A]

And now it's time for today's with the assist segment presented by State Farm Basketball. Full, unpredictable moments, big swings, clutch plays, last second finishes. You just never know round to round. But the one constant is having teammates you can rely on. And throughout NBA history, we've seen some unforgettable duos. Everybody. You can almost feel it through the decades. You got Kobe and shaq in the 2000s. You have MJ and Pip in the 90s. You have Bird and McHale and Magic and Kareem in the 80s. You're going through towns and Havlicek in the 70s. The great duos. Are we going to have one now in San Antonio? I think it's going to be Wemby and Harper are going to be when? 50 years from now. We're talking about the great duos from the late 2000 and twenties, early 2000 and thirties. Maybe it's those guys. I would say the best duos in the 2020s, you'd either go Brown and Tatum or you would go Jokic and Murray. I think for two players that just. Just seem like they brought the best out of each other. Yokage and Murray in 2023. Probably my favorite duo combo where just we felt like they might win title after title after watching them in the playoffs that year. Well, just like in basketball, life can throw unexpected moments your way. And guess what? That's where State Farm comes in. They've got easy to use digital tools like the State Farm app and neighborhood State Farm agents as well. When you want to talk to a real person like a good neighbor, State Farm is there with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Countless hours in the gym, 1000 shots before tip off, day after day in the same court with the State Farm stanchion right there. That's right. The best players put in the work. And State Farm is the same way with insurance experts who put in the work as well. Whether you get a digital quote or reach out to a local agent, State Farm is there to get to know you and help you select the right coverage that fits your life and your budget. Putting in the work is what separates the good players from the great. And that's why you want State Farm on your team. So get the coverage that's right for you. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn for small business, every hire matters, but the time and resources required to hire right are Limited. Luckily, LinkedIn Hiring Pro is built for that reality. It's your hiring partner, designed to help you hire with confidence by surfacing only the right candidates without turning hiring into another full time job. Hiring Pro streamlines the entire process from drafting your job to shortlisting candidates and conducting AI powered screening interviews. Its conversational interface lets you describe what you need in plain language. No recruiter jargon needed. Nearly 60% of hires find a candidate to interview within a week. With Hiring Pro, you spend less time searching and more time connecting with the right talent. Hire right the first time. Get started by posting your first job for [e-mail] Simmons that's LinkedIn.com Simmons terms and conditions apply. All right. People have been asking for him ever since the Celtics got eliminated. People thought you were too mad to come on. Then people thought maybe you're never coming on again. They didn't know where your head was at. The Patriots are falling apart. The Celtics fell apart. The Red Sox season is over and my dad is here. How you feeling?

[D]

Well, as you just described, I'd also include the Bruins not only losing, but not getting the Toronto draft pick. So I was trying to decide when you said I had to come on today which sports team hat I was going to wear. Bruins, Celtics, Patriots or Red Sox. And I decided I don't like any of them right now, so I'm wearing my Ruby's dad hat.

[A]

Your dog, Ruby.

[D]

Ruby is our special needs puppy.

[A]

She's. She's had some trouble in year one. Who gave you that hat? Just out of curiosity, Michelle, who walks?

[D]

Ruby and Winnie. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. All right. So Bruins, you sit down for the lottery. They have to go back from five to six. The Maple Leafs, it's just one. Instead, they go up Every year.

[D]

Every year, somebody jumps ahead. So what happens?

[A]

They Maple Leafs jump up, get the first pick, and now they're.

[D]

Oh, my gosh. Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And you and I were on a thread with our nephew Brian, and so that was just a coup de gras on top of everything that's been happening to our sports teams.

[A]

And now we have this. Whatever's going on. Jaylen Brown, Jason Tatum.

[D]

Is Jaylen Brown still on our team?

[A]

Jaylen Brown's still on the team. He was on the Jennifer Hudson show this week talking about stuff and sent some twitch. He's out there.

[D]

I wish. Instead of going on the Jennifer Hudson show, he was back in the gym dribbling and shooting free throws.

[A]

He's resting his body. So you went to game seven?

[D]

I went to the four home games we won. Game one looked really good. And then I saw three terrible losses. And including game seven.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So what do you want to happen? Would you. You're just talking as my dad, the Boston fan, Celtics fan. What do you want to happen? Do you want them to keep Tatum and Brown together, or do you want to move Brown when his value is high?

[D]

Yeah, it's a hard, hard question, but if the package was perfect for Jaylen Brown, I would move him in a heartbeat. I don't know what that perfect package is. I'm just kind of tired of watching him and,

[A]

you know, 10 years. 10 years of watching his offensive game.

[B]

You've.

[D]

You're good. Well, something I think. I don't know if Philadelphia got it into the referee's ears, but I watched the tape of a couple of the games. Almost every time he goes in to make a shot, he pushes off. And they don't usually call it in the regular season, but it's apparent that he can't get his space unless he pushes. Whereas you see some of these other guys in other teams and, you know, they get to their space quickly and shoot quickly, but I'm worried he's turning 30. His athleticism is what has made him the star he is. He's been having difficulty now getting his jump shot off without pushing. He can't make three throws. He's a black hole in terms of the ball going into him and not moving, and he can't dribble. I don't understand after 10 years where he can't dribble, but.

[A]

Well, I'm higher on him than you because.

[D]

Yeah, I know you are. You've always been higher on him.

[A]

Well, I always valued the durability. I always thought he played hard and gave a shit. And I think the more we step back from the season, I think it was pretty weird that Tatum just showed up with six weeks left and they had to figure out how to incorporate that in real time. It was fun to watch, but it doesn't seem like they ever. They had these two styles, and they talked about it. Jalen talked about it after Game 7 when he said, I felt like we were playing more like us in game seven. Well, why do you think that? Cause Tatum wasn't playing. Cause you guys were pushing the ball up. Cause you had the ball more. But I do think fundamentally you and I, you know, obviously the listeners aren't privy to our phone calls. We always talk about stylistically, Tatum likes to bring the ball up, take his time, figure out what he's going to do, whereas I think Jalen likes to move faster with the guards. And it's the first time I feel like maybe they just want two separate things on a basketball team.

[D]

Well, it's an interesting point because I'd say for the first two thirds of Jalen of Taysom coming back, he deferred to Brown, and Brown was still the alpha dog in the offense. Tatum was more a lot of time in the corner the way he was as a rookie.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And then when they got into the playoffs, it kind of switched, and Missoula shortened the bench. And to be honest, I know you and I have talked about, I don't want to see the Brown or Tatum bringing the ball up. I want to see a guard bringing the ball up. I don't want to see Tatum dribbling until there's nine seconds left and he does ISO. And I don't want to see Brown bringing it up and losing the ball over and over. I want to see White or Pritchard bringing the ball up and, you know, play Brown and or Tatum at the high post or, you know, move him around. We stop moving when those two guys bring the ball up.

[A]

I say you that one Twitter clip. Somebody did a great job of pointing out what Philly was trying to do with Jalen, where it was just basically like, fine, go one on one, knock yourself out. You'll make half of these. But we're not letting the three point shooters do anything. And they stayed home with everybody. And it was a lot of Jalen going against good defenders, trying to like, bang against them and get his spot. And that would be the same thing with Tatum.

[D]

It wasn't just that, though. It really struck me after watching the Nick Philly series. I think Philly Was really, really happy to see Tatum or Brown bring the ball up because when they went Isil, Embiid just stood there. He wasn't moving around. He didn't have to move around. He wasn't wasting energy. We weren't tiring him out in the fourth quarter. He was wide awake. And you watched the Knicks and it was a completely different way of attacking Embiid. They moved him all around.

[A]

Yeah, they wanted him in pick and pops all the time where he had

[D]

to come out and Tatum and Brown bringing the ball up. How many times did we have seven or eight seconds left and suddenly somebody had to take a shot and Embiid again never moved.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So.

[A]

Well, it's funny, they were doing that to us with Keda, the pick and pop stuff, or especially with Vucevich just trying to get him where he'd have to jump out a second too late out of three pointer. And then the Celtics were never doing that to Embiid, which was just bizarre.

[D]

Which, you know, oh, boy, here we go.

[A]

Did you put Joe back in second row?

[D]

I'm not going there. But if Tatum and Brown consistently are bringing the ball up so that Embiid can just stand there and be lazy and rested, that's a coaching decision. That's a coaching strategy. If I'm the coach of the Celtics, I have Missoula, I have my guards bringing the ball up and I have the ball moving all around this. And I have Embiid tired by the fourth quarter.

[A]

Well, this goes to what I said. I said like last week about it felt like they treated that Philly series as kind of a tester for what they were going to do in round two and round three? Let's see, what do we have with Vucevich? What do we have when Tatum brings the ball up? What do we have if our bench shorter? And they never took Philly seriously enough until it's too late. You and I were both struck by Stevens press conference, which was riveting. And he seemed both pissed off that they lost to Philly. I think he knew that Philly wasn't that good, but also pointing out like he didn't even think we were that good. He made a point of pointing out the 3 and 11 against the best teams in the league. He brought up Shireman and Hugo, which Hugo, which I thought was notable and how important Hugo is going to be for them next year. Meanwhile, Hugo got buried after. After the trade deadline. So I don't know. I felt like they weren't 100% aligned watching the press Conference.

[D]

I agree. I mean, you and I talked about it afterwards, that one of the great things about the regular season and how they overachieved, which was great because none of us expected 56 wins, was they used 10 or 11 people. They didn't tire out Browning and Tatum. They had wings coming off the bench over and over and running. You know, one thing about, you know, I'm not a real fan of Walsh, but, boy, he runs his tail off.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Hugo runs his tail off. Scheiner runs his tail off. What happens when they're not. When they're sitting on the bench? Isolation. Again. We saw it, except for the championship year, every year for the past four years, isolation. But you bring those guys off the bench, they're moving all over and they're getting offensive rebounds.

[A]

Right. And they're pressuring. Like you saw what the Knicks did with Maxi for four games.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Just chasing them around, using bridges on him. We had all the guys to do that, but we had the guys. It was a real, really bad coaching series. And I thought, I've said this, I thought Missoula was great there in the regular season. I just wonder, big picture, what did they learn from it? You know, the trade that they made to get under the luxury tax, getting rid of assignments really did change the team. Because one of the things that made that team, the thing you and I liked was they always had two guards out there, right. And it was. It was two of the three at all times, and one of them was usually hot. And. And if two of them were hot, they're beating anybody. But usually you could get one of them going. Pritchard's trick or treat. Wait, the shooting was. Was. You know, I thought. I just thought they put a lot of miles on him. I wonder, like, about thinking about things they would have done differently, would they have put less miles on white and brown and not really cared what seed they got? I thought that was one of the lessons of the season, is it doesn't really matter what seed you are. It matters how healthy your guys are in April.

[D]

Right. Two thoughts on that. I can recall during the regular season three or four games that we won because Simons got hot.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Nobody else was hot. He came in, he got hot, and he would play the whole fourth quarter. And, you know, that trade made a huge difference, obviously, in terms of our depth at not just shooting guard, but a guard who could make a shot. You know, when our shots aren't falling and we don't have those subs in there grabbing offensive rebounds, we're just a static team. We're not moving well.

[A]

Do you feel like the window is these NBA teams have these four year windows. This is a team that just lost in round one, you know, and it's this team that made the 22 finals and 24 finals. We thought they were going to make the finals last year and they had the crazy Knicks collab. Tatum gets hurt. And now you look at teams like OKC and San Antonio and they just seem so much better set up, you know, unless there's an awesome trade.

[D]

Right. You know, and they do have some. They have a trade exception. They have the mid level. Da, da, da. The other thing that struck me though, and you've just brought it up about seeding, in retrospect, I would have preferred to have been the fourth seed. I think we matched up really well with Detroit. Yeah, I think we matched up really well with Orlando and eight, you know, and in the fifth seed as well. And we put a lot of miles on Brown to get to the second seed. And he just looked real tired to me in the playoffs playing all those minutes.

[A]

Can I throw a trade at you that I've been thinking about?

[D]

Does this involve anybody from Milwaukee?

[A]

No.

[D]

Oh, okay.

[A]

I'm starting to get nervous about the honest stuff.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

I keep thinking of that segment I did on my podcast a month or so ago about older big men and what the track record is for year 14 and on and.

[D]

Right.

[A]

You know, with Tatum and Brown, you always feel like with those two guys, you can build around them, figure out some sort of strategy. And Jalen turns 30 next year, Tatum's younger than he is, and that's like a five year window. Giannis, it might be two.

[D]

Yeah, that's a good point.

[A]

And so now, now we're condensing this window where you're also going against OKC and San Antonio, who have all these young players and they have all the contracts staggered and the ability to add all of these pieces. It's like, you know, you have these lightning in a bottle seasons, and I think we had 1 in 24 when we were able to get Porzingis and Drew and everything kind of aligned and they spent a lot of money for that season. They, you know, the, the opponents fell in the right way. I think that's happened in the Knicks this season where.

[B]

Well, the.

[D]

What you just said, the opponents fell the right way. Yeah, which didn't happen. You know, we faced a Philly team that if we played them three weeks ago, we would have swept them.

[A]

We faced a Philly Team that had one good week in them and we just happened to hit them that one week and then they died immediately. So I just, I wonder, like, is this the time to take a swing? And I keep thinking about New Orleans and whether there's a way to get back Zion and Trey Murphy with Jalen and some picks and whatever else needs to go in there and basically end up with Trey Murphy making half as much as Jalen and then taking this enormous flyer on Zion and trying to figure out, can you put Zion in a winning organization with a different fan situation and what's there? And if nothing's there, you bail on it. And now you're paying Trey Murphy half as much as Jalen. Like I wonder, I wonder if Stevens is thinking about stuff like that.

[D]

Well, we both like Murphy.

[A]

All the smart teams like him.

[D]

Yeah. Williamson is so injury prone, it's hard to know what he really is.

[A]

He's almost like the contract to make it work. Cause Jalen's gonna make like 58 million. But I wonder. Cause Brad is so outside the box with how he thinks about stuff that I wonder if he's thinking Yanis two year window where I'm probably not winning the title anyway. Or can I try to reconfigure this so I can have. I got to pay Pritchard. That's the other thing is they have to pay Prichard 7 million this upcoming year and 7 million after a free agent. He's a guy that's worth 20 plus. And do I need a center? Would be the other thing I'd be thinking of. If I'm trading Jalen, do I need a bigger guy? Like, do I have to. Should I think about Sabonis? Do I think about Sabonis and trying to get more Sacramento Kings first round picks that are always.

[D]

He hasn't finished the season in a couple years.

[A]

Yeah, well, they, they shut him down this year. I'm just, I'm just trying to think, yeah, yeah. How many centers are out there that could make an impact? Do they feel like they need a center? Vucevich thing obviously failed. It's.

[B]

It's.

[D]

My guess is. Well, again, going back to the press conference, Stephen certainly intimated that there'd be changes.

[A]

Yeah, he wanted more stuff at the rim. He wanted a more conventional team. It felt like he was clearly tired of the style that they played.

[D]

After that press conference. I did look at different teams and different big men. Doesn't necessarily have to be a center, but a big man. I mean, Utah has a couple of people as an example, there are teams that, if Jalen was in the trade, I think you could get a big man and a wing back. And I'm just not sure if Stevens is ready to trade Brownie. He flattered him in the press conference and a couple days later in the newspaper. And maybe that's the kiss of death.

[A]

I know, but that's. I've always wanted to keep these guys together. Everything that's happened the last few months is starting to make me wonder, does Jalen just want his own team?

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And does. I talked about this a week ago. It just feels like the body language seems to be heading that way, in my opinion.

[D]

Yeah, you wonder. I mean, we sit so close to the bench. I always watch Tatum and Brown together. And it was weird with Tatum coming back with so little time left in the season, but it was even weirder. We went to that Game seven. Molly was able to go, and we went to a bar first, and we're sitting there and having a drink, and there's two Philadelphia fans sitting next to us. They have Philly gear on. And the guy says to the other guy, it's so great that Tatum's not playing. And I said, what did you say? He said, tatum's not playing today. I was flabbergasted. Game 7. I just never expected he wouldn't give it a shot. I guess I didn't know he wasn't

[A]

playing, but it's understandable considering he had a calf injury to the other calf that they pretended was a knee injury, but it was a calf injury.

[D]

But did I have any confidence when I heard that? No, not too much confidence. No.

[A]

Weirdo.

[D]

I mean, the reality is, I was there for Game five. We're up three games to one. You win Game five at home like you're supposed to, like all like the other teams did.

[A]

We're up 13 in game five, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Tatum doesn't get hurt in a game six. There is no game six. Would we have beaten the Knicks? I don't know. It would have been a fun series.

[A]

The thing I will never understand is why they put all those minutes on Tatum. That has never been explained properly. I don't get it. I don't understand it. I don't understand the quotes he had after about. But his right leg still isn't 100% the size of the left leg. And just stuff where it's like what you've told. You said you were recovered, you weren't recovered. And if that was the case, then why wasn't he on a Minutes limit. Why is Wemby on a minutes limit but he's not. Why was. There's been a bunch of guys in the league who like LaMelo Ball the whole year was under 30 minutes. Cause they were trying to keep him healthy. Why were we putting minutes on him like that?

[D]

No, I agree.

[A]

If I was Chisum, that would be the. I would have, like, a meeting and be like, the fuck. Why did we. Why did that guy play 43 minutes in game five? What are we doing?

[D]

Well, it seemed like there was such an impetus to get the second seed instead of the third seed, when in retrospect, we lost three games at home anyway. So did it matter? No. We were a better road team at times during the year.

[A]

Whatever. Something. There will be some major trade. I don't think you'll love watching Giannis. Just for the record, if that's the trade, that I'm not really your type of guy.

[D]

Now, I'm not saying that's the greatest trade that's out there, but I certainly think they're going to explore what can they get back from for Jaylen Brown? I don't see Tatum being the trade object.

[A]

Red Sox, we don't need to talk about. It's disgusting what's happened.

[D]

It's not just that it's frustrating, disgusting, unreal. That the Fenway Group that has billions of dollars has become the cheapest franchise in the league with the highest prices to go to a game.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

It makes no sense. And I'm not going to a game this year. I'm revolting.

[A]

And your son's rich and you're still not going. I mean, think about that.

[D]

Well, look at third base. We have a guy hitting 162 who's five feet tall. I mean, it's just an abomination what the Fenway Group has done to the image of the Red Sox. They got their four championships, and then they said, that's enough.

[A]

Yeah. They were like, well, you suckers are now just gonna pay for tickets for the rest of your life.

[D]

Yeah. And you can come in the eighth inning and sing Sweet Caroline and buy your pink hats and blue hats and. And we're going to make more money.

[A]

It gets risky when you start playing that game of chicken with your fan base.

[D]

I think it does.

[A]

Especially in this era. You know, you're.

[B]

You're.

[A]

If people who are just like, well, if they don't care about the team, I'm not going to care either. We've seen. We've seen the. That happened in the early 80s a little bit. And it happened a little bit in the, in the 90s, too, where you could feel people are like, all right, is this how you're treating us? Then we'll go over here and there's three other teams and a bunch of other stuff to do.

[D]

Well, you can go online now and get great seats anytime you want.

[A]

Right.

[D]

That's a really shameful position that they've put the fan base in.

[A]

And they also don't have the signature guy, which there's been years where they haven't. But they were, I think, putting all the eggs in the Roman Anthony basket. And that has not, not gone well.

[D]

Which is. Which is a, you know, is he. Is he fragile and injury prone? I don't know. But once again, he's hurt.

[A]

All right. We've talked enough about the Red Sox. The Patriots are the other one. I know that's been the big topic. Well, the head coach has been the big dinner topic in New England now for five weeks.

[D]

It's not just that. It. We've talked about this for 20 years. Every time things seem pretty good with the Patriot franchise, something happens, whether it's Deflategate or Spygate or some scandal or the owner of the team in a spa twice getting caught. It's just one thing after another. And this is just the latest. This is a really bad story up here. It's not going to go away. It seems to have legs as a week goes by, and then there's a new photo or a new story, and I feel badly. I really loved the job the coach did last year. I thought he had the locker room really all going in the same direction. The camaraderie was great. We overachieved. We didn't have a bat. We had a somewhat easy schedule, but we overachieved. And now here we are again, and nobody's talking about the players, Right. The articles are about the coach.

[A]

Yeah, Woodall must have been better off losing in Denver. It turns out Drake's hurt, the Vrabel thing doesn't happen. And then all the dialogue is about, can they. Can they get back, can they get there to the super bowl instead? I mean, they're going to trade for AJ Brown on June 1st. It seems like almost a formality at this point, which would be the thing everyone talked about. I've tried not to talk about the Rabel thing that much because it's such a bummer of a story. And they, you know, every side has kids and it's just, I don't know, it makes Me, it's a little unseemly, but I wonder, like, how you become the way he coached the team where he's like the patriarch of this Patriots family and everything is about family and team and being there for people and hugging each guy as they come off the field. And now will that seem disingenuous as he's doing it this year?

[D]

I think that's a really good way of phrasing the most important question that people up here are asking. What's it going to be like? Is he going to be in the hallway hugging everybody again? Are the players going to look at him a little bit differently or maybe

[A]

they'll like him more? The coach is getting after it.

[D]

It's a sad story. You're talking two families and I don't know the details. I just know what I read. I just wish I wasn't reading any of it and just looking forward to the season, waiting for the schedule to come out today. But that's not the time. Yeah, that's not what's in the paper.

[A]

So you care about the schedule? Brian Curtis and I just did a whole segment about this that we think the schedule release day is ridiculous. But you like it?

[D]

I haven't seen the schedule yet, no.

[A]

But do you like it, though? You like looking at it and being like, oh, we're playing?

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, you just love it.

[D]

That looks winnable. That's going to be a tough game. Where's the buy?

[A]

Yeah, I like all that stuff we talked about. The reason I had Brian Curtis on was we talked about this content glut we have now and how the football is adding these extra games and there's going to be a Wednesday night game before Thanksgiving and all this stuff. You've been watching sports the entire time I've known you, which is my whole life, whenever it's on. Do you feel like there's a difference now with the amount of sports that's on, or is it just harder to find?

[D]

It's a little bit of an overload.

[A]

So you feel the overload a little bit. Have you watched as much hockey playoffs as you usually watch?

[D]

No. Well, that's not unusual. Once the Bruins got knocked out, I don't watch as much.

[A]

Yeah, but you would watch like you would watch to root against Montreal and you'd pick random players.

[D]

I've watched a couple of Montreal games. I watched the Colorado game yesterday, but my heart's not in it. I like the Bruins team. I thought they overachieved. I like the new coach. We're A couple players short. We don't have a first line center. Da da. But I liked that we did as well as we did and I have optimism for that team. They seem to have their act together.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Bruins, number one in your rankings.

[D]

Well, it's kind of weird, isn't it?

[A]

I'm going to be back with the Pats. We still have Drake May. He's going to be healthy this season. Their team's going to be good. They have some good drafts. I'm going to be. I'm going to be fired up by July.

[D]

I am, too. I'm going to be fired up for the. I just wish the focus was on the. The draft picks, the movement of first year to second year players. Progress, stuff like that. It's just not there.

[B]

Right.

[D]

Yet. Yet. Maybe it will be.

[A]

You don't think he's going to step down, do you?

[D]

I don't know. Would I be 100% shocked? No.

[A]

See, I wouldn't either. But I. To me, like a leave of absence seems more realistic, like he comes back when real training camp starts or something. But you know, in the NFL, that's pretty massive for your coach to just not be around for two months. I don't know how they're going to handle it. And the owner is 88 years old, 86 years old, whatever he is.

[D]

Right. So, yeah, I hope he doesn't step down. I wouldn't be surprised if he does step down. None of us know the whole story. I hope it isn't the story that the paper keeps printing, but I don't know.

[A]

I love how you're so forgiving of Brable and yet you demoted Joe to the second row again.

[D]

No, I didn't.

[A]

After the Phillies, you did.

[D]

You demoted Joe.

[A]

And I never mentioned. I have texts where you said, he's back in the second row. I've had it.

[D]

Well, that's. Private text. Between you and me, you were done.

[A]

You were so mad after the series you wouldn't come on. I was mad, but I couldn't even get you to come on today. You were still mad.

[D]

And I'm not defending Grayville, by the way.

[A]

I know.

[D]

I don't know the details, but it doesn't look good. And I'm not putting Joe in the second row, but I think he has a testing year coming up that will determine whether he's here next summer.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

All right.

[D]

Yeah, in my mind.

[A]

What TV shows are you watching?

[D]

The three. Chicago TV show. I watched the movie you recommended.

[A]

Oh. Crime 100.

[D]

101.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah. I still don't understand how they got.

[A]

He got the copy. You can't spoil a movie. Okay, so you like crime 101 more than rip, or do you like rip more than crime 101?

[D]

I like rip more.

[A]

All right.

[D]

I didn't quite understand either one of them at the end, but I'll have to watch it a second time. You know, I agree with you on the lead actor in Crime 101. He was a little too.

[A]

Chris Hemsworth. Yeah. I just didn't think he was good enough. That was my biggest issue with the movie. And I liked him in other stuff. Like, I thought he was great in Rush. I don't know what he was going for. Yeah. I don't know what his plan was in One on One. I didn't get it. He, like, intentionally was hard to figure out, and I didn't think it worked.

[D]

I thought he just came across a little weak. Weakened personality, weakened demeanor.

[A]

It would have been A great early 2000s Russell Crowe during his Proof of Life era role. That was what I needed from that. I needed just somebody at the peak of their powers. A little enigmatic, trying to figure out what they're thinking.

[D]

That's a good. He would have been good before he gained 200 pounds, but he would have been good.

[A]

Did you see Project Hail Mary?

[D]

No. What channel is that on?

[A]

No, it was a movie. It was with Ryan Gosling. Yeah. Is it the biggest movie of the year? No, no.

[D]

I'll wait for it to come on cable.

[A]

It's on Amazon right now.

[D]

Oh, it is? Or.

[A]

Yeah, it's on all those. You have to pay for it, but.

[D]

Well, charge it to put it to your account.

[A]

Just charge it to my bill. What other TV shows are you watching? You love the Madison.

[D]

I like FBI. I like the Madison.

[A]

What about the Yellowstone spinoffs? You're in on that one?

[D]

Well, yeah. I mean, I like the

[A]

U.S. marshals. You like that?

[D]

U.S. marshals? I like that one. I haven't. The other ones, I think starts tomorrow night.

[A]

You love the Madison, though?

[D]

Yeah, I like the Madison.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

I like the acting in the Madison. You and I talked about it last time. I couldn't stand the two daughters of the two grandkids.

[A]

Two. Two of your favorite actors, though. Kurt Russell and Michelle Pfeiffer.

[D]

And then I understand there's a season two already coming and a season three, I think, already.

[A]

You're not watching Euphoria?

[D]

No, it's not my.

[A]

Yeah, please, please don't watch that one.

[D]

As you say, when I want to do something. You're not the demographic that one.

[A]

I don't. I definitely don't think you'd like that. There was no new CBS shows this year. Boston Blue. You're okay.

[D]

Nah, nah, I think it's.

[A]

You jumped out.

[D]

I watch it, but it's poorly written. And, you know, I like Donnie. I liked him in Blue Bloods because he had an edge to him. He's too nice a guy in the new one.

[A]

But you never did the Pit. That was the shocking one to me. I. 100% you would have liked the Pit. I don't get how you missed that one.

[D]

I did two episodes and then got caught up in life and haven't been able to get back to it. So maybe this summer.

[A]

All right, well, keep us posted. All right. I thought you did okay. You weren't as angry about the Celtics as I thought.

[D]

Well, it's a good thing we didn't do this two weeks ago. A week and a half ago.

[A]

All right.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

All right, dad. Enjoy all the sports this weekend. Do you have a PGA pick?

[D]

Scheffle.

[C]

Scheffler?

[D]

No.

[A]

Oh, Schauffle. Xander Schoffle. Yeah, we call him Xander.

[D]

Xander. I like Xander.

[A]

Xander. There you go.

[D]

It looks like for me, Scheffler's been in a slump. His irons aren't doing so well, but.

[A]

All right, we'll enjoy it. I'll text you over the weekend. We're going to come back, take a break. Come back with Utah Jazz owner Ryan Smith. This episode is brought to you by Brooks Running. Sometimes in the sports world, we see performances so mind blowing, you think someone somewhere is bending the rules. Like when an unknown player comes out of nowhere and tears through the league with a dominant scoring streak. Well, the Glycerin Flex from Brooks is that phenomenon in shoe form. It provides a flexible cushion rod that's made to move with you. With a breathable upper, your shoe feels like a distraction free second skin. It's the ultimate blend between human movement and tech. So if you want to feel the best parts of your run, flex the rules, then the new Glycerin flex shop, the Glycerin Flex at brooksrunning. Com. This episode is brought to you by Panda Express. It's not always easy to show love, but there is one way to express how you feel. Food. And what better way to say I love you than with Panda Express's delicious, authentically cooked American Chinese cuisine. Whether it's eating with someone you love or while watching the team you love, you can pick from tasty Options like orange chicken, honey walnut shrimp, kung pao chicken, and black pepper sirloin steak. Have you eaten yet? Order now or visit a Panda Express near you. All right, we are taping this late Wednesday afternoon, so if anything happens over the next 24 hours, don't blame us. Ryan Smith is here. He is the owner of the Utah Jazz who finally had some luck in the lottery. What'd you do? What kind of tricks were you doing the week leading up? Were you, like, wearing the same shirt every day? What superstitions do you have?

[B]

So I'm incredibly superstitious. And so what I decided to do was not go to Chicago. I mean, I. I've been there. I've been in that lottery room twice in the back room or once in the back room, once kind of on the side. And then obviously last year with my wife on stage, Ashley, with all the kids sitting there, and, man, that walk of shame. That walk of shame hurts. It stings for a really long time. And I was like, look, I'm 0 for 3 going to Chicago. I'm going to stay home. And I sat at home watching with my family, did our usual Sunday church stuff, went and sat there. And I'm one for one doing that. So that's a lot better.

[A]

Church, that might have been the key. Maybe that's what you have to do now if you're ever back.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

I said on the podcast, oh, go ahead, go ahead. No, you go.

[B]

We had a record attendance at church in Utah on Sunday.

[A]

Well, they moved it to Sunday, too. The lottery. Usually it's Tuesday night. I said on my podcast the other day, I thought, they need to go back with the law. I don't like the representatives. I want the people in the room who have the most stake. Either give me all the owners or give me the GMs, like, the people. Because the most famous moments ever were Dave the Busher winning the Patrick Ewing lottery and just almost losing his mind. Or Jerry west when he didn't get LeBron James that year in 2003. I want to see the weight of the lottery on the people who actually care the most, and we've gotten away from that.

[B]

Or you're just twisted where you're looking at people for most of their life, most of their life have kind of been able to put their thumb on the scale for things or be successful, and they have no control over this.

[A]

Yes, that's exactly what I want. All right, so walk me through the emotions. So you're supposed to be. What number you were? Four Right.

[B]

Yeah. We won the coin flip with Sacramento.

[A]

Not televised.

[B]

Yeah, non televised, but we were four. And so, you know, you kind of, kind of hope in this draft, I mean, I think everyone was kind of had this. Could you stay top four? I mean, that was the discussion leading up or how would you do that? And then, you know, you know that our, our kind of floor is eight and that's, that's kind of where you're thinking. And you know, I was, I had to mentally tell myself, I'm perfectly fine at seven. It's great players all the way through. And, you know, it was almost unbelievable for us. Like, I mean, first of all, when the envelope. Here's what's crazy. Like one of our camera guys came down and gave me the envelope. I just got this today, actually.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And so when that, when that was pulled out, first of all, when Sacramento was pulled out, like my, my 13 year old lost his mind and just went down because he saw purple.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then the Jazz, you know, and then we got in the top four and then, you know, obviously Chicago, Memphis, and then it was.

[A]

You've never, never moved up, right? This is the first time ever.

[B]

Never, never, never. So the, the faith in the lottery system, I don't care who you are, is kind of sitting there, you're just like shaking your head a lot and it's a, it's a crazy feeling. And I think, I think that, you know, I'm sure Sacramento has some of that feeling right now. I'm sure, you know, Brooklyn for sure. There's no way not to. There just really isn't. And it, if I'm a, if I'm a consumer of sports and entertainment or television or drama, like, that's a pretty cool event, you know, because it, it's, you know, the pain. I mean, I, I had people show me videos of restaurants here in Utah, like erupting the restaurant, the entire restaurant. And it's pretty cool.

[A]

So we had the opposite. I remember the worst Celtics one. Well, there are two bad ones. We had the 97 and 2007. So it was. Duncan was the prize one year. And then it was Durant Oroden. It was either of them. Let's get one of the top two. And the Celtics got fifth that year. And it was the opposite of those videos where the people in the bar was like, oh, it was like, you know, it was like a traumatic event. You're just looking at the rest of it, like, what did I just waste the last year for? Now you're out of the woods like, you actually have the kind of team you want. You've had to, you've been in some lotteries. You traded for Jaren Jackson, you have marketing still. You never got rid of him. Now you have a top two pick. You base Bailey like, this is, this was a three year odyssey to get to this point, basically.

[B]

Yeah, especially taking over as a new owner, a new ownership group where we come in. It's probably not how you want to design, you know, your, your tenure when you start, but this is a little bit where you just trust the team you brought in and you say, hey, where are we at and what are your goals? Honestly, like our goals are win a championship in Utah. It's never happened as well. And I just don't think we're going to tiptoe into that. Right. I think that it's going to require a running start, a little bit of help. It's going to require, you know, a different, a different level of building than probably maybe what it takes to make the playoffs. And even, even those groups that, you know, have done that in the past, just given our market, given our luck, given where things are, it's like, you know, you've got to start and, and that starts with, with our front office and our coaching and like how we're going to go through this. And we've been close. I mean, I took over that Donovan and Rudy team, you know, where, where Trey Mann destroyed us in the, in the corner there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And Staples at the time and man, that was a helpless feeling because that was kind of ours to have. And then, you know, kind of had to make some decisions after that. And so, you know, here we are. Like, I like where we're going. I like the assets that we have going forward. We have all of our picks, plus, plus and a lot of young talent. And honestly, I think every team is going to have to do this. You know, I think this is a lot of my point around the lottery reform and everything else is like the way we're going to have a certain number of teams that are going through the rebuild process and the rebuild experience and all have different sizes of markets. And you know, I think as a league, which I love, we'll ask ourselves really hard questions around what do we want that rebuild experience to be?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How long should it take?

[A]

I've heard you use that word before. It's interesting because the other word is tanking, but it's really a rebuild because you're trying to get to a much higher place than you're in. You Guys became the linchpins for this in February, which was really the first time all the tanking, rebuild dialogue happened. And I was part of it. I definitely did one of the first podcasts being like, we've got to fix this. This is the earliest this has ever gone. But from your vantage point, if I own the Jazz, I don't know how you would do another strategy. Especially when you're looking at San Antonio, who gets 2, 1 and 4 in three straight years. Now you watch them in the playoffs, and all of those guys are awesome, and they're 20 and 21 and 22, the foundation of this 10 year contender. So if you see that, like, how do you not try to emulate that in some way? I don't know.

[B]

Well, I think, first of all, I don't think there's an ownership group that wants to go through this, Right? I think that's. First of all, no one in the league wants to do this. Especially, like, you look at our situation when we're taking over, right? I mean, you want to do the opposite. Like, you want to go fast, you want to flex up, you want to show, you know, your fan base that, like, you got some juice and, like, naturally.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so when you come in and you're like, okay, let me tell you what we're going to do. I know we got the All Star Game coming here this year, and we've been waiting on that. What we're going to do is trade our two All Stars. Probably not a popular spot to be, right, but you've got to have conviction, you got to have alignment. And then, you know, you always start off with a retool, Right? We're just going to retool.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then it gets to a point. What you're seeing with a lot of teams are like, no, no, no, no. If we're going to lay up in a weird way, like, don't lay up in the water. You know, the water's 200 yards and we're going to get on in three. Like, like, we've got to, we've got to figure out how to, how to get out of this position. And right or wrong, and I think you saw this with San Antonio, the decisions become pretty easy in the top part of the draft, Right? You know, you're betting between some pretty amazing options there. You know, being in those draft rooms and kind of being on the other side, it gets a lot more challenging. Or, you know, it's, it's challenging all the way across. But, you know, drafting eight, nine every Year is a little harder.

[A]

Well, I look at the situation you had when you took over, and I don't know how much you want to say about it, but you had Mitch and Gobert. You had the foundation of a team that was really consistently good, but had not done as well, maybe as people were hoping in the playoffs, right? And it. I don't know if it had run its course, but it felt like it was hitting a little bit of a wall. And then you have a franchise guy who the rumors start immediately. He wants to go back to New York, he wants to go here, he wants to go there. And this is the conundrum of the league, right? You go through this process, you get a franchise guy, but then you also have free agency, you might not be able to keep the guy. Do you think there should be more mechanisms in place that favor the team? When you've had somebody for, you know, five years, seven years, nine years with the, like, could there be luxury, tax stuff, like benefits you could get for just having stability?

[B]

I mean, look, this was all pretty new to me, right? I mean, my first day, we were kind of in the middle of the COVID and we had like, two days to, like, sign Don and Rudy, or 30 days. It was that short window, if you remember. I remember having two days before Monday, before we got to kind of go into it with Rudy. And I remember going up to his hotel room and being like, hey, bro, what do you care about? You know, and actually, that was like my first meeting ever. It was just him and I talking because we knew each other before. And, you know, there was a process in going and sitting down with Don and going through all that. And, you know, I think you almost, from what I'm learning about these championship runs, it's a little bit like you almost don't know what you need until you get on the track. And, you know, it's like this. I got to have a little more than the other team. So it's a little bit of a moving target. So running its course of a team, you'll see that this year, whatever will happen, the narrative will be around a couple teams that get bounced out. They just don't have enough, and they've got to bring more than the next group. The hard part is when you're already asset down and you're over the cap. Like, we were into the tax. We'd given up a lot of picks for Conley. And so it's like, how deep do you want to cut into your future when you've been bouncing the first round, like, three times.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, and I think when Danny. When Danny originally came in, he and I had a lot of real honest conversations about that. And ultimately, he's like, hey, look, I've done this before. This is what we're doing. And, like, this is how we're. We're gonna think through this. And, you know, he had been coming from a place where he'd been knocking on that door with a really good team in Boston for some time that he had kind of put together. And then obviously, the year he leaves, like, they end up going back re adding one more piece almost. You don't know what you got, and it's just one more piece. Then that didn't work, and then one more piece. And, you know, having those assets to be able to do that is really important.

[A]

The year he left or the year you stole him, I mean, let's be honest. You kept stealing Celtics people. You stole. You stole both ages. You stole Will Hardy. Just go back to the well with Boston. Just keep taking our.

[B]

Brad doesn't answer my call.

[A]

Yeah, Brad. We tell Brad. Brad, your phone number's blocked on Brad's phone.

[B]

Yeah, but. But I think the other thing is also one of the things I do love. I'll just be honest, and it's not to get on the OKC train, but one of the things I do love is just. I mean, with Joe Kitchen in SGA is just how they haven't let the narrative come. Like, they've been pretty forward thinking on both of those individuals about, no, I like this market. I want to be here. There's a lot of drama. There's a lot of narrative that comes out. Well, you're in a smaller market. You're in this or that. It's loud enough for these players. We see this in hockey. A lot of these players play the worst when they're in the biggest markets, you know, and I love the fact how they're embracing that market. There's nothing you can't do from okc. There's nothing you can't do from Utah. There's nothing you can't do from Denver. There's nothing you can't do from these places. And I think that, you know, we've always had players who've had their best years in Utah, always growing up. Like, you look at Hornacek, you look at Boozer, you look at D Will, they'll all tell you after the fact, like, I had my best years in Utah.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Why is that? You know, because they could come get Locked in. They could. They could actually, you know, do it in. In. You know, it's interesting because we're in such a global media market where instead of one or two voices, there's. Everyone's got a voice like, you know, and so it's. It's a little bit like we're playing in the United States and we're playing in Europe. Yeah, There's a difference there.

[A]

Right? Well, you're. You're unique in two ways. One. Well, a lot of ways. But you came in, you didn't have new owner syndrome. Cause I always feel like when the new owner comes in, they feel like they have to this crazy, splashy move and, you know, shoot for the moon and try to improve the team. And that's usually when they get into trouble. You did the opposite. You had to basically start a rebuild. But then the other thing, you are Utah. Like, you're from there. You belong to that whole area. You're really invested in building up, not sports, but just the culture, the mentality of what people, how people see Salt Lake, how people see the city and the state, which normally when people come in, like, Chisholm. Chisholm bought the Celtics, was a huge Celtic fan, but also wasn't living there the last 20 years. Now he's back. You. You were a Utah guy. You even had chances to maybe get some other teams, and you were fixated on, no, it has to be this team.

[B]

Yeah, so. So when we went through this process, like, it, it was. I mean, there's no secret. I was looking at Minnesota. I, I, you know, I sold my company to SAP. You know, I've come from tech, you know, spent my whole career in tech, didn't do one thing else. And everyone's like, well, what company gonna start next? And I was like, you guys, I want to do hoops, play hoops every morning. I love going out to Boston and just hanging with the angels and, like, watching hoops with them. And I'd go down to summer league and play golf with Da and like, you know, I just sit next to him in the suite watching players. And I was like, this is so fascinating. Like, I'm such a junkie. And. And it was the only thing that intrigued me. And so when the opportunity came, you know, everyone would say, hey, what are you going to do? What's next? And it's like, no, I, you know, and I called Adam and said, hey, look, like, I'm really interested in this. And, you know, for whatever reason, opportunity came to me on, on Minnesota, and, you know, you know, the owner there, Glenn, was, like, super nice, but was he gonna sell? Was he not gonna sell? He's kind of a little bit of a. Seemed like the situation was a little runaway bride. Like, how's this gonna go? And so we had worked down to it, and we were getting really down, almost to the dock level. Like, we were. We were drawing up docs, and, you know, my wife was just like, what about our season tickets for the Jazz? And I was like, well, no, no, no, no. We'll. We'll, like, Minneapolis. It's only two hours away. Like, we'll figure this out. And I think she knew how I kind of go all in on stuff, and she's not going to see me as much. And she was just like, I just love with the boys. Like, we're Jazz fans. This isn't going to work. And then, you know when your partner's, like, not feeling something right? Like, I'm in day two, and she's kind of not speaking to me, I'm like, all right. This isn't right. So I called Adam, and I remember I was on the golf course. I pulled over into trees in the cart, and I was like, hey, look, man, I can't. I can't do this. And then I went back to the family who'd owned the Jazz forever and just said, hey, there's ever a chance I turn down something else, even if I could buy a little bit. Like, if not, I'll just be the best sponsor you've ever had. Like, I'll do anything. And, you know, they called back, like, six months later and were like, hey, you still interested in that? And I was like, yeah. And a piece. Yeah. Awesome. They're like, well, if we're gonna do a piece, we're gonna do the whole thing. I was like, what? And they're like, well, we need an offer. And I was like, I don't know what that looks like. And then ended up pulling up the Forbes valuation on my phone. Ended up doing a deal. And then I was like, oh, God.

[A]

Just for real, the Forbes valuation, those aren't even accurate.

[B]

Well, I don't know what you go off. It wasn't like, today.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Four years ago was very different.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

And then. And then, you know, remember calling Adam, and I said, well, we probably should talk to Adam. And Adam called, and we were all on the phone together, and he said, hey, we're transitioning the team in Utah and this and that. Adam called me back and was like. We were having another conversation. It was A little bit like, hey, look, if you're lucky in life, you get to work in the NBA, work in sports. If you're really, really, really lucky, you can be a governor. Yeah, it's like no one gets the team. They grew up sneaking into the arena and they grew up cheering for, like, this is unheard of. And like, so it's not lost on me. But that's also a lot more weight. Like, I know what it's like to be a Jazz fan. Like, like, I. I had a funny one today. We were in the drive. I just got back from Chicago. We were in the combine interview and, you know, interviewing all the players. And I'm sitting there and, you know, at Austin and set all this up. It was phenomenal. Did a great job and. But can't. Boozer's in there and I'm, you know, I asked one question because I didn't say much the whole time. I was kind of auditing the class. But Carlos is also one of our scouts and a little bit like, you know, Carlos could only take us to the Western Conference finals. Like, what do you think you can do? Right? And that's the fandom coming out. Like, I know, I know the pain of not getting over the hump for Utah in so long and being like, when I took over, you know, one of the second or third most winning franchise in the last 30 years without getting over the hump, kind of crazy. And so, you know, I think the lottery moment for every Jazz fans, Every Jazz fan was like, boy, it's like, whatever. It's just nice to get a little luck. It's nice to feel. It's nice to have the light shine a little bit, you know, and I think. I think there is a little bit. I mean, there's no way to not look at it the last couple years and say, hey, there's a lucky part of our game a little bit, right? And you know, it's. But if you. If I look back at my career, like, I was extremely lucky, you know, and, you know, in tech and when you were born and the, in the timing when I graduated, you know, college and where I went to work and what I almost went to go do but didn't, right? And so luck's a part of all of it.

[A]

I didn't even think of the part that the lottery was in Chicago. The biggest nemesis of the Utah Jazz. The two finals in a row, and somehow, somehow Chicago gate finally gave it back a little bit.

[B]

Yeah, it's good. There's a lot of healing. Probably Still a lot of healing left still today.

[A]

And then the other weird thing about this ladder is there's a top four. And I actually really like the next couple guys, too, but I think there's pretty clearly a top four. And you guys have these indirect ties with two of the four, Right. Where you have Boozer, who played for the Jazz for years with the best years of his career and is now involved with your team. And then AJ who went to. Got pulled out, went to prep school there, went to byu. I know you guys are a little bit involved with the, you know, success of byu, so you've probably gotten to know him a little bit, right?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I go to BYU is like a mile from my house. So, like, it's. It's kind of. It's my alma mater. It's where I went to school. It's where I play hoops three or four times a week. That's, like, part of why I live where I live. It's a little bit of, like, you know, if you're going to live in Raleigh or whatever, you're right next to campus. Like, I like the college town feel. And, you know, I also grew up here. It's weird. Like, my parents. I was born in Eugene, Oregon. It's crazy. Danny and I were born in the same hospital. Right, In Eugene.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And my dad was, you know, there was four of five kids. And he said, I'm gonna. I'm gonna go from, you know, University of Oregon in the late 70s to BYU. You probably couldn't get two more polar opposite spots and moved us here. And, you know, he grew up in Washington State. My mother's from Palo Alto, California. And, you know, it kind of settled here. And, you know, I started a business here. I met my wife here. Like, I have a lot that I've been given because of the state and everything else. And for me, it's not that, you know, I just went to school there. Like, I. I grew up running those halls because my dad was a professor at byu. And like, everyone thinks it's like, oh, you're just in charge of. Or you just like to be with hoops and sports and that. No, it's like. Like, it would be really weird because I started qualtrics, really, you know, from an academic room.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

With my father, like, at byu, it'd be really weird if I wasn't all in on there and all in on Utah. It's a little bit of like, that every time I go there reminds me. I feel like where I came from, you know, so. So. So it's cool that, you know, a potential top. Top pick or wherever it ends up is, like, is coming through here. And I'm sure all the dukies feel the same way about Cam. And, you know, it's kind of. It's kind of how it's gone. I mean, I get the amount of texts I get from everyone from Duke, like, and, you know, there's a lot of them. Like, the decision's easy. Like, whatever it is, they're coming. And you got the BYU contingent. It's. It's like, there's a lot of drama around this and a lot of insight and narrative, and it's gonna be an interesting 40 couple days here.

[A]

Well, the Utah thing, I think, has evolved really this century, but from where we used to think, like, I'm living in Boston. I know nothing. I'm just like, ah, Mormons, byu, Utah, snow, Sundance. That's like, all, you know, and it really feels like that shifted over the last, I would say 15 years. Now you have a hockey team, and there's just feels more energy around Sundance, I think almost like, peak now it's moving. Where's it moving to? Colorado eventually. But, yeah, I'm sure you'll replace that with something. But in general, real energy around the city. And then you also have this weird stuff, like, you have the stupid Secret Lives of Mormon show. There's Real Housewives show.

[B]

It's right out of central Casting.

[A]

Right. So. So. So there's all these different things going on with Utah that just didn't exist 30 years ago. What's. What's fair and unfair about the Utah thing?

[B]

So. So if you think about Utah, like, most people aren't from here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I'll just say that, like, you know, you know, my dad's from Washington. You know, if I look at, you know, my. My mom's from California, My wife's from Las Vegas, there's not a better place for family life. There's just that, like, I. I'm fortunate. I've got siblings all over. Like, there's just something about Utah. I also think it's like, look, most states can only own one or two things authentically. Like, what do you actually own or are positioned as that. That no one else has.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And, you know, as we went through our jersey designs and we've gone through this, I've been asking myself and looked over the last couple of years, like, silicon slopes, the tech community, and the innovation in Utah, we're probably the number two innovative hub, and everyone's going to be like, no, it's Austin or. No, it's. There was a time in 2018, I think we had as many startups or, you know, ipos is New York City. Right. Like, you start looking at that and it's like, why? And you know, people can say, do Utahn sell out too early when they get businesses? But if you look at what's come outta here from this next phase of influencers and how the world works and, you know, everyone has a different tie to folks. The amount of people that come in and, you know, ski here and visit here. I just saw pictures of Conor McDavid down at Southern Utah and the Alma. Like, yeah, like, like I saw that. Like, but it's crazy who comes through here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's like most time people vacation here, but, you know, I don't think we've done a very good job over the last 30 years, like branding ourselves.

[A]

Yeah. Because you feel like a small market, but you're not. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, there's like, I, I said this on day one with the NBA. There's nothing that we have in common with a small market. You go to our airport, you can jump on a plane and go to Paris, go direct to Hong Kong or Seoul, Korea, you can go to London. Like, that's not a small market. You're not having to do connections. Right. You've got a tech ecosystem that is insane. So if you come out here and get a job in tech and it doesn't work out, you can get five other jobs in tech.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Right. What we get branded for is because, you know, we don't have the urban living that most people associate with a big market. And that's because when you come to Utah, you actually kind of want to spread out. But we're the fastest growing, youngest demographic in the country. So what people also don't know is within Salt Lake City, within 90 miles, you've got 250,000 college kids that most come out here, want to stay here. And so you, you always want to bet on youth. If you take Stanford and Cal and Caltech out of Silicon Valley, you kind of don't have Silicon Valley. Right. What makes Boston special and kind of rejuvenating all the time is that education system. And so I'm super long on cities and growth where there's always youth coming in and then what they do. The key is, and I feel like it's unique that my wife and I and our group, we're in a position to kind of take a little bit of the Announcement or the baton of city building and community building. So right before I came here, I just announced a new health partnership for both of our teams. We're building this, we bought a mall, so 110 acre mall right in South Salt Lake. And we just put our Utah Mammoth hockey team is two years old. The practice facility there, we've got a corporate offices there. And then we just announced a new practice facility that'll be done in September of next year for hoops all together but with their own separate worlds. So we just announced with Intermountain, a six 50,000 square foot healthcare facility that services both. That's like super innovative. And this is part of like our responsibility now with these teams. And we're actually doing the same thing downtown. We're creating this arena district right in front. We've got a live nation venue, got a major hotel going in that's five star. Like we're looking at this to be like, okay, what's everyone's experience when they do want to go to urban living? Because I know the experiences when they come out is awesome. You know, it's absolutely awesome. I mean you got guys like Jordan Clarkson was here. He loved living down south and kind of having a house, spreading out like. And then you're 20 minutes from 25 minutes from seven ski resorts. We got the Olympics coming back. I mean, you know, so, so it's, it's where I choose to raise my kids. It's fun. But you know, there's a couple of things we can authentically own and it's like come have the best years of your career and come have the healthiest mentally here because wellness is real. And go ahead.

[A]

How many people own an NBA and an NHL team in the same city

[B]

within the same ownership group together? Just stand that. No, yeah, you've got Dolan and then New York and New York and you've got Toronto which is kind of corporate owned or however that is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then you've got Leon, Susan and what's going on in Washington.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And we're all set up different, you

[A]

know, but you are a maniac competitor. So now there you have these two winter sports. So you have NHL and NBA happening simultaneously. Like I what, what happens to you at night.

[B]

So I prefer to have it like if you're going to give me the heat, like let's just do it all at once. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I would just go every other night. I've told my kids, hey, you know, dad works the night shift. Like it's, it's what it's what we do a little. And so, like, we. I don't think anyone in our organization was acclimated the first year of, like, we all knew hockey was coming. Yeah, but I don't think we knew hockey was coming.

[A]

What's the crossover with the organization? Because some people will have basically somebody who's in control of everything. People will split it up both ways. How did you decide to attack it?

[B]

So I think we went and looked around at all the different models, and we're like, okay, none of this is for us. I believe when it comes to organizational structure, you build around people and you, you, you know, it's just gotta feel right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I feel like a little bit. I kind of, you know, operating in tech, like, no one's evaluated or I would say innovated around organizational structure as much as tech has. Like, you know, some people have one direct report, some people have 20. The span of control. No titles, titles, open floor. Like, like, however you're, you know, you're just controlling. You can't control how people think these days. It's much more around the environment. And so it took us a step back and said, okay, how do we want this environment to work? And clearly I didn't know a whole lot about hockey, so we were fortunate that we had a great GM and Bill Armstrong that came over, and then Chris Armstrong, who is actually a great friend. Tony Finau is actually golf agent working in an agency, but was a hockey guy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And represent a lot of hockey guys. And. And, you know, he was a big part of the idea. So. So those two kind of work together on the hockey side. And. And Chris is a president, Bill's a gm, and, you know, they run that and report up to me. And then on the hoop side, which. Which we can get into, you know, I've got Austin now as our president of all basketball.

[A]

And then you stole him, too. That was another one. Yeah, it was another Boston theft. That was your third one.

[B]

Can I at least tell how many you have?

[A]

Three now.

[B]

Yeah. Can I tell that story? Yeah, I think it's important. So when Danny came over, you know, he didn't really want to be the president of basketball because he'd already done that a long time. And, you know, I was more like, hey, what do you want to do? It's me, Da. Like, he was actually super helpful in getting a team, and then it just worked out.

[A]

Well, wait, wait, wait. Going backwards, though, you're friends with him a long time, you've been playing golf with him. Forever. Even when he stepped down from the Celtics, my shit detector was blinking hard. I was like, first of all, I don't think he's giving it up. Second of all, that's his buddy that just got the Jazz.

[B]

I'm suspicious, but there was like a six month process. And we're together. We're actually at the hero. We're at Tiger woods golf tournament. We're there with Tony Finau, and he's not working for anybody at the time. And he won't tell me he's going to come help me because I don't think. I didn't think his wife and Michelle and their family. He was going to move to Utah

[A]

and he had some health issues. He'd had a heart attack, the whole thing. Yeah, for sure.

[B]

And he didn't want to go from being the president of basketball to being the president of basketball over here. He wasn't doing that. Yeah, he wanted to kind of shift gears a little bit. But in one week, I watched him in December, like, watch like six different games a night. I'm like, dude, you just watched like 30 basketball games from college to everything, and you don't have a job. Like, who's paying you to do that? He's got the iPad, the laptop and the TV up. And I'm like, who? You just do this for fun now? I was like, you might as well get paid for it. Come over and help. And then that started a process, and he really wanted. It came down to, what do you want to do? He wanted to help scout. He wanted to help with coaching and help manage the players, and didn't really want to deal with much more than that. So he helped me. We came over, we started this process, we got into it, and I just love working with Danny. But I was driving last year with my wife, and me and Danny were going somewhere and she said, hey, what happens if something happens to you and Danny? And I was like, well, that's kind of weird. Well, what do I do? What do I do with the team? I was like, well, let me tell you what you do. You call Austin Ange, and you tell him to come out. You're going to run it. Because Austin's an absolute star.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I never had that conversation with Danny ever. He would never push anything. He's like, he just did never happen. And then she was like, well, does Austin know that? Because I just saw he was interviewing for this president job or something online. Like, are you. Don't you think you should tell him?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I was like, it's actually a good idea. So I call Austin that day. It was right after the transaction. I said, hey, Austin, I don't know if you know this, but let me just explain the conversation I had with my wife. This is how I feel.

[A]

You're my designated survivor.

[B]

I need to tell you this is how I feel. We've never had this conversation or anything like this, but this is how I feel. And so you need to know that. And if you're interviewing. Because I heard a couple other rumblings and someone was going to grab him, and I knew that if they sat down with him, it was going to be very close. They were going to do it. Because you love that he's got the Ainge background, but he's also his own guy. I said, you need to know that. You come knock on my door. Well, he called me back and he's like, hey, if I'm gonna go, I want to go now. And I was like, what? Okay. And by 5 o' clock that day, I had hired Austin as our president of basketball ops.

[A]

But you didn't tell Danny yet.

[B]

No, I didn't tell Danny. It had to work this way. Yeah. I was like, there's no way I could talk to Danny.

[A]

No way too weird.

[B]

And it's just like, he would, like, hammer me that. Are you doing this because of me or this? Like, he's just that way. Like, he's. He's the hard math teacher. Yeah, that's just the way. As competitive as he is himself, he's. He's that competitive with his kids to go out a little bit and. And dudes. I mean, Austin coached in the G League, and. Yeah, but Austin. I knew Austin from byu. He was a real. I wouldn't say he was unathletic, but he was a really smart point guard. Like, I knew his basketball makeup. I had watched his career go, and I was like, there's something different. But he's also, you know, he's also got that, you know, Boston organization. You know, he's very disciplined, very open. I don't know what to say. It's almost, you know, east coast educated type vibe, like, with the Ainge background, which is like a pretty cool combo. And. And so then I was like, oh, no, I've got to call Danny. And so I can't get a hold of Danny. So I'm like, someone told him, oh,

[A]

like, he was mad at you. You thought he was?

[B]

No, I can't get. I thought he was because I. I normally get a hold of him, but it was Like a three hour period where I couldn't get a hold of him. So I finally get a hold of him, I was like, Da like we've known each other for like 15 years. Like, we built incredible trust together. And I think it's either going to be really good after this call or you're going to be really mad at me. I just hired Austin as a president of basketball ops and you got to go figure out how to work for him. And it was quiet for a second, but there was no one more happy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Than DA and it's just been awesome. And so Austin's in charge. He's running the whole thing. But, you know, part of this is like, for me watching him and others and Austin go to work and, you know, knowing where to point DA you know, I'm sitting in that, I'm sitting in that draft interview room and I'm looking over and there's. There's Will with championships in the pop pedigree today. Austin's got a ring. Avery Bradley's in there. He's got a ring. And I see DA with three rings and pretty much built the fourth. Like, I'm like, all right, this is, this is a championship. Like, I'm not going to know more than these people and I, you know, and I just need to, you know, make a couple hard decisions a year, be a tiebreaker here.

[A]

Well, the other thing with Danny is he's basically, he's such an anomaly with the draft. First of all, you never know. I just know from all the Celtics stuff, nobody knows what he thinks until like the last week. That's why if there's any stories that come about, Utah likes this guy. Utah likes that guy. It's like, I promise they're not true. No, Danny's not even going to tell people he works.

[B]

And I'll just say that I just rode back with him on the entire plane trying to debrief, just trying to

[A]

figure out what he thinks. He won't tell you.

[B]

Yeah, I've been through this three times. He does not want to influence. Danny's a truth seeker. He really is. He doesn't lie. I'm sure he loves you like you call him. You're like, danny, what do you think? He tells the truth, like, in a weird way, you know, or he won't say anything like. Or he's not going to lead something weird. But, like, Danny's point of view is going to be something that. And I believe him on this. I believe that he did not know, you know, he was drafting Juan in that, you know, in that famous Jayson Tatum where he goes back to three and then Jalen going back to three, I honestly believe he did not know who he was going to go take until right up to it. And the reason why is because I kind of got to read the day before the draft with Keonte and then got a different read 10 minutes before the draft. And so what I'm really excited for is that Austin can turn to his left and have that. That as well. And Austin's. Austin's an incredible, incredible talent evaluator. Like, you know, sitting next to that guy your entire life, like, you learn. You learn that side of it, plus, you know, but he thinks for himself. And so that's. That's what you want. And then, you know, with Will being able to have these guys talk to Will, and Will's a unique coach, just awesome and, you know, young, and I'm excited to see what he can do.

[A]

The. The whole lottery reform thing, were you. Are you involved in any committees yet? Have you jumped on anything? Were you involved in the reform?

[B]

I'm on the mini committee. I'm on the planning committee, and I. I'm on the social justice committee as well. And, you know, I think they've. They've actually done a really good job of. Regardless of the committee here, of just like, they had a bunch of GM calls. They basically set up the hotline. You call us with your ideas. And our group has talked to the league and other people in the league four or five times just to say, hey. And the answer is always like, yeah, happy to schedule a call. I'd love to listen. Well, have you thought about this? You thought about that? So in some ways, it's a little bit like us naming the mammoth. Like, we're putting it out to the. The fan vote, which brings a lot of input in, but it's within a tighter group, and that's hard to decipher. But I think the league is looking at it all and saying, hey, we're all partners in this. We want to get it right. Let's make sure we understand every view. I'm empathetic to the rebuilding, but I think everyone's going to have to almost take a step back and say, hey, what's best for the product? It's not going to be perfect. And by the way, right or wrong, like, luck's going to play a piece of this. And then what happens when you get the teams, the humans and the agents and all of that involved, like, it's all. It's all great until you get the people involved. Right, right. And like, you see that with every cba, like there's unintended consequences and this happens and you know, you know, certain things trigger. But the, I don't know.

[A]

The only thing I really care about is that I don't think teams should, like what happened with the Spurs. I think they have to figure out three top four picks in a row. Like little wrinkles like that. So you can't just. Basically, I know the odds are going to be stacked a little differently anyway, but it just feels like having that much luck three years in a row, they can kind of litigate a little bit.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I think we'll come way more. I mean, there's stuff that's being reported on the side, there's stuff that's being reported on the other side of how to do this. But no, I think there's something like, is it, Is it. I'll just speak for myself. Like, I'd be okay now that we're the second pick. Like, okay, great. You can't come in the top five next year.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Solves a lot of problems.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All right. The next thing is like, hey, if you just unrestrict the picks that are restricted 1 through 8 or 1 through 7, that also solves a lot of problems.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

Okay. And so I think, I think that that's fair. And it's like, okay, then draft well, but when, when you're a team, I'm also super empathetic to the teams that can't get out because we are such a star driven league. And hockey, it's a little different. You're grabbing guys, you're developing them, you're putting them down. In the Miners, the, the reward for one ball or one spot in this sport is so high.

[A]

Right. Well, in hockey, in hockey, there's so much volatility even with the stars. Like you see like Taylor hall right now in Carolina where all the, like the Bruins had him. He was good. Like, these guys can do this. Where in basketball you have these fixed guys that year after year, you don't have the same volatility, I don't think,

[B]

or the young guys. It's very rare for a young guy in hockey to come in and make such immediate impact.

[A]

Like there's like a once every eight

[B]

years and then, you know, you look this year and you got VJ playing in the playoffs. You've got, I mean that's, it's pretty impressive.

[A]

Dylan Harper, all this stuff.

[B]

Yeah, Dylan Harper, like, it's it's pretty impressive.

[A]

Do you feel like you're part of a new. Because I remember we've had these generations with NBA owners and in the mid-2000s that all of a sudden you had Cuban comes in, Whit Gross back, and the Celtics, and they're like these younger guys that came in and they were, you know, younger. They were more from the tech side. They were not trying to blow the league up a little bit, but maybe push the league in a different direction. And now it feels like we're heading that way again with some of the guys from your generation, like, you know, like the Charlotte owners and yeah, Chisholm's coming in with the Celtics. Like, it feels like something generationally is shifting and I don't know what a hundred percent.

[B]

It's really clear. I mean you've, you've seen the, the asset class of sports becomes something that's super desirable. You're seeing also, you know, the groups of people coming in shift from family owned to more like, you know, kind of towers that have been stacked together.

[A]

Like the language.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Ownership groups that come in and you know, I also think the days of no one's like, let's just be honest, like, in no other world would you acquire a business for the size of the price of what, you know, Portland did and turn it over to somebody. That would never happen anywhere in business.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You'd never be like, okay, I'm. I'm paying this for this luxury brand. Okay, yeah, someone else, like, I'll come see it next December. That, that's unheard of. And so now with, you know, I don't know what's cause or effect, but like, as you look at the, the risk people are taking to get in here, I think long gone are the days where the principal or the main principle is not heavily involved. We're not going to see a day where a board's running it, a family office is just running it on the side. Those days are gone. They're gone in football, they're gone in everything else just because of what it is. And actually if someone's stretching this far to acquire one of these, they, they also really understand the community aspect of it as well.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because they, they care about that as well. And so I think that we're just in a new world. And you've seen it like in our world. It's, it's Patrick Dumont, it's Ishbia. It's, it's obviously, you know, Gabe and, and everyone up in Charlotte with Rick and you know, I Think the wrestlers are someone new and coming in and like you look at, you look at the involvement not only just with there or what Dun has done in Carolina now important like, like in a round and what they're building out, like it's a decision to say, hey, I'm actually could probably do what I want. This is what I want to go do. And like, I want to be involved. Now that's a tough balance as well, because I know enough. I'm, look, I'm a Hooper. I play all the time. Like, I watch basketball, I'm a junkie, I watch every game. But like in this draft, for example, I, I'm going to say this like, our fan base shouldn't want me drafting this person. Like, when you've got the team with Austin and Danny and group, like, you should feel a lot more comfortable than with me right now. I want to alpine and like have a thing, but like, how, how involved you get is like, you got to be a little careful because you need to be involved enough to give the team air cover. Right. Because everything's not going to go well and you need to understand the body of work that people are putting in. But at the same time, that's what gives them air cover to be able to have a long tenure. I often find that when people are too far out of it or they don't live in market, they become really reactive with coaches and GMs and stuff like that. When you're in it every day, you know that. All right. I know you're doing all the right things. We just need a break.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I, I learned this at Qualtrics just leading out, you know, when we opened up in Europe, like, I was in every single detail in Europe and like going through and I remember my board coming to me going, you know what? Let's pull the plug on Europe. It's going too slow. It's not working. I'm like, hold on, hold on, hold on. It's here, it's here. And then four quarters later, the thing pops. Or when we started shifting our model and it's like, hey, you know, this isn't working. It's super expensive. No, no, no, hold on. Everything's always taken longer than I thought.

[A]

And if you weren't as heavily involved, you, you might have been.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Overrun by the board.

[B]

Yeah. And so it's, it's. You got, you got to have polar opposite emotions to be able to manage it. You got to be able to manage. I got to be over involved, but also let the team Work.

[A]

But, like, when they come to you with the Jaren Jackson trade, ultimately you're stamping that one way or another. Like, if you didn't want to do that, the trade's not happening.

[B]

Yeah, for sure. If I don't want to do it, it's not happening.

[A]

Yeah, because you're taking on a big salary. You're giving up draft picks. Like, you're not going to be like, okay, I hate this, but I trust you guys. At some point, you have to be a little on board.

[B]

No. And they want to read me in. But in our organization, the way we're lined up, they want to call me and talk about it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But they also know that if will Danny and Austin. Or will Austin and Danny are line, I'm going to have a hard time saying, honestly, I'm going to have a hard time really saying, like, no, we shouldn't do that. Because I know that they've wrestled this thing down and thought through everything because they attack it differently. No one's gonna get fired for the way they're thinking about this. And, you know, they know they can speak their mind. They know they can speak their mind with each other. And, you know, and then when we do something, I've got to be able to be like, all right, guys, like, put your hand in the middle. We're riding a dime with this thing.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I'm cool. Like, the one thing I hate is, like, you know, just this revisionist history. And in sports, it's all the time. Should have done this. We should have done. No, you were in the decision room. Like, if we're. If we're doing this, no one's going to say that. No one's going to say we should have or. I didn't say that. Like, if you. If you want to say it, speak up right now, but. Because the second we pulled the trigger, it was your idea as much as it was anyone else's.

[A]

Is it daunting?

[B]

That's how we're rolling.

[A]

Is it daunting to be in the west and watch these playoffs? When you see San Antonio and OKC in your conference loaded with these guys thinking like, Jesus, we don't just have one mountain. It's like two mountains next to each other that we have to climb here? No, I. I think.

[B]

I don't think it's ever. You know, I don't. I definitely don't think it's more daunting than going up against 23 and 19 or, you know, 1997. Right. Right. I think. I think that you know, they. They're both in a pretty good spot. They are mountains to climb. I. I would argue that, you know, there's people out there that say we're right behind it with where we sit and everything that's going on.

[A]

I think with the lottery, I think you're probably third with assets right now in the west, so. I agree with that.

[B]

But. But I don't think any. Like, it just shows how competitive this is and, like, what you're shooting for. Like, you know, it is. It is what it is. And, you know, I know, you know, D. Wade's in our ownership group and, like. And just talking to him and, like, knowing that history of what it's like and what you had to do and really asking about the grind, like, it's pretty crazy to be able to turn to Danny and D. Wade and be like, walk me through, like, what you thought. And, you know, March.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Of this year when you guys won, and it was like, this was stressful. We didn't think this. This is who we were up against. We thought there was no way they had smoked us. That. Then you get into the. The moment, then what happened? You know, it's like, this change it or this change or this how it is. And, you know, that's. That's kind of where it's at.

[A]

Those are two similar teams, right. The 06 Heat that Wade won the title with, and then the 08 Celtics that Danny won the title with, where in two years, there was the move, and then there was the move after the move, and then all of a sudden, they're in the mix. It's like, whoa, we're here. Let's go. Like that. 08 Celtics changed in nine months.

[B]

Yeah. And then even, you know, the battle within the series.

[A]

Yeah, there's that, too. I'll be interested to see how you handle that. We haven't even seen that side of you yet. When you're in, like, a conference final, losing your mind on. On the sidelines. Wait, I had another question for you about expansion, which it seems like it got floated out there. Adam has the two cities he seems to want to have. Be interested to see if they could get the money for those two teams. But then everybody has to vote on it, and you go from 30 to 32 teams, which is adding two teams to the league that you now have to beat.

[B]

You're.

[A]

You're losing media share.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do we have the right amount of teams? Like, where do you stand on this? Are you even allowed to talk about it?

[B]

I mean, there's nothing I would say that I probably wouldn't say publicly or privately or whatever it is. I kind of, I'm a guy. I kind of have one story. This is it. And so, you know, I think you need to zoom out because, look, part of me is like, Vegas is extremely close, right? It's extremely close to us. Yeah, very close. I mean, you might have seen the jersey exchange we did with the Vegas Knights. Everyone's like, oh, you were just trolling the Knights in the playoffs where you, you put out that you'll exchange a jersey, Vegas Knights jersey to a mammoth jersey. And people are lined up around the block. It's like, no, no, no, no. The world doesn't understand that. Like, you know, Southern Utah is 90 minutes from Vegas. Like when we opened up with a mammoth, like the Knights were the hockey team.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so on the selfish side, it's a little bit like, hey, that, that impacts our market a little more than probably most. And, you know, as you look in the west, you've already got some hills to climb. You know, two great markets, which I think they are, that are being floated. Like, I want to have to get to our ultimate goal. We don't want to make it harder. I think there's a lot of people that could easily see or take that view of it or take, hey, how much money are you going to get? Or that's the view. But if you look at everything that Adam's doing holistically and if you look at where sports is, why I'm so bullish on the NBA, we're probably the only league that can have the reach and the impact globally that this sport provides. So you look at that NBA logo, my sister in law is from Africa, she's from Zambia, who married my brother. And right or wrong, what people think about NBA Africa brands go over to Africa and it's really hard, it's really hard to translate over time. They end up into something different. But you know, just being in draft interviews and seeing these kids who come over like that NBA logo means something over there and it is the logo of basketball. And you go, you're looking at Europe. We focus on the teams or this or that. But if you fast forward 20 years and you say, okay, NBA Europe, you know, there's a league with a chance to actually have a view of all of sports with that NBA logo. It's pretty amazing. And if Seattle and Vegas are part of that bigger picture, like, I'll do it like I'm a partner. Like, I think that's A great. Or we'll have that discussion. But I look at it more holistically as not a seller of the NBA. It's more of like, holy cow. Like, we have a sport with a ball that has a great mobile viewing experience. Like, one of the best. I can watch NBA games from my phone, and I love it. Our reach is insane. And by the way, people can have a team, people can pick it up. That's how I look at it globally and say, hey, how many users are we going to have? You always hear those stats that, oh, Manchester city or manufacturer has 1.2 million fans. If you look at the NBA in that way, I'm grateful that we're making the investment now for Europe. Someone already made the investment in the W. Someone already made the investment in Africa, because we truly have a world who wants that product. And I think that's how I look at it. And that's a weird way. That's not a. Can't it just. So I think. I don't look at it just those two teams. I look at it as a global NBA brand, like, where it can go. And, you know, you can see being a part of Vegas, and, you know, it works.

[A]

Yeah, because, like, financially, you'd be getting, like, let's say it's 15 billion for both teams. You're getting a $500 million check to give up a small percentage of your media rights.

[B]

Yeah, I don't. I don't really.

[A]

But that's not how you're looking at it. I get it.

[B]

Yeah. Like, it's holistic. And, you know, there's not many sports that could be doing what. The NBA? Yeah.

[A]

Well, you can see the NFL, they just announced their schedule. They have nine international games. They're literally very wary of this.

[B]

They're super aggressive. Yeah, super aggressive. They're like, hey, I want Christmas Day. I want this. I want that. Like. Like all these leagues, I mean, we're all like. You look at what's going on, and I think that we truly. I think Adam's vision's a lot bigger, and I think they're doing a really good job with it.

[A]

Last question. Walk me into that room of 30 really rich, successful people. It's the board of governors, and you guys have to talk about stuff and argue about stuff, and you're just at this big, giant table in some room, and you're all successful people who are used to getting your own way the entire time, and now you have to hash shit out. What is that room? Like, what was it like the first time you went in there.

[B]

I mean, it's hard. It's a daunting task. I mean, you know, if I take a step back and if I'm the league, it's like, okay, how do you have a room of 30 people who all have opinions, who are all going through something that are all trying to kill each other, that have to come in together and, like, what do I do? Do I just. And there's a couple camps that differently. I'm fortunate to be a part of a different couple, different leagues and have, like, do you just say, hey, here's a memo, here's what we're discussing, or do we actually care and open it up for debate and let everyone speak their piece and then try to make the most humane decision knowing that it's almost impossible.

[A]

Yeah. And you have people with different. You have the small market teams, you have the I don't want to pay the luxury tax teams, you have the I have a lot of money. I want to win the title. I don't care what that cost team. You have the people that generate a bunch of revenue. They don't want to share it with everybody. So there's agendas everywhere.

[B]

Nothing's like one little quadrant. There's, like, vectors. Every issue is like seven quadrants. Yeah, right. There's never anything that's like one quadrant. And so it's really. It's really hard. So on that front, like, I think going into these things, it's. It's in anything. If that was your board or anything else, like, it's not, you know, probably the most productive way to have a meeting.

[A]

But how else are you going to do it? You kind of have to.

[B]

There's no. There's no way else to do it. And I think what our current setup is. I don't think there's anyone in that room that doesn't feel like they can go and give input and they're at least listened to. And that's. That's pretty hard to do.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so I. I would argue that, you know, whether it's Tom Dunn or whether it's, you know, even Jim Dolan or someone else, like, I feel like, you know, whether it's Mickey or like, they're able to. To do it in the capacity and the ability to Adam, to. To hear and maybe even feel that I see you is. It's a gift. And so I think that, you know, and look, I've been on someone that. I'll just be honest. I've been on the opposite side of maybe Even my point of view at the time, a couple different ways. I've been fine. I've been doing that, like in, like, I'm cool with how. I'm really cool with how we're going, and I'm even more bullish than ever on the NBA and. And I'm excited to be doing this for a really, really long time.

[A]

What's your fine? What's your fine total right now? You're down 500.

[B]

I'm down more than that.

[A]

Are you in seven figures yet?

[B]

No, no, I'm not. I'm not human or draymond level.

[A]

All right. Try to, try to keep that number below seven figures.

[B]

No, it's part of it. I mean, there's a process and I get it. And you know, it's just. It's just the tax.

[A]

Congrats on everything. I think it's been cool to watch from afar. No, I mean, you're from there and all of a sudden you own these two teams and they become even better assets and staples of the community than they used to be. And you have this whole thing going now. Hopefully you'll get some luck in the lottery. But that's the thing. You never know. You have these four guys at the top and it's like, pick seven might be the best guy in this draft. That's the NBA draft.

[B]

It is such a. You know, and the funny thing is, is like, like, I remember Will the first day a couple years ago. He's like, okay, great. Everyone come. I don't care where you were drafted. I don't want school you went to. I don't care anything. Like, your life starts today, right? Like, like once the season start, no one cares internally, like where you were drafted, how it was. Like, maybe you got veterans that have come in, in the second round. And you know, you look at the Rudy Goberts, you look at the Jokic, it's like it really has to do with, like, who. Who we're going to invest in and taking a 10 year view on this. And I just feel really fortunate with the group that has chosen to do this with us. You know, starting with Austin and then Will and NDA obviously. Like, what a blessing to have that dude around, you know?

[A]

You know, I remember being at the 22 finals and they invited Danny to sit courtside with the Celtics owners for one of the games, and Will Hardy was really just involved. Or maybe it was 23. It was 22 or 23. When did you hire Will Hardy? Was it 23?

[B]

Yeah, I think it was 23.

[A]

Maybe it was the 23 pass, but I could see Danny looking at Will Hardy and watching how involved he was. And I said to my dad, oh, no, Danny's studying Will Hardy. This is bad. Because we knew Will Hardy. Everybody loved Will Hardy. But I was like, so not surprised when you hired Will Hardy.

[B]

Well, people would ask and be like, he's like, I don't know. I like what? That. I like what Boston. But what was the youngest coach in the league at the time?

[A]

Yeah, he was great.

[B]

We hired him, and he's been.

[A]

I'm glad you finally get to go for wins now.

[B]

He's an awesome partner. Like, and it's. It's. You know, it's funny. Like, Danny Austin and I all golf with Will. You know, we're all golfers, and, you know, it's. It's fun. Like, we can all just go play, and then the time. The end of the round is we have nothing else to talk about. So it's good.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Yeah. And, like, a lot of times they're managing me. I think it's like, hey, look, okay, who's. Whose job is it to go manage Ryan a little bit? And, you know, it's been good. We're super fortunate.

[A]

All right. I'm happy for you. Congratulations. Congratulations on everything. Thank you for all the time. Look forward to seeing you. I want to come to Salt Lake for a game at some point, so you should. I'll change your life, let you know. Hang out with the Angels.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Good to see you.

[D]

Thank you.

[B]

Let's go. All right.

[A]

All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Brian Curtis and Ryan Smith and my dad and Gahal and Eduardo. Again, we don't know the schedule for Sunday yet, so check out on social media. We're definitely going live on Netflix at some point. Will it be after a game seven? Will it be after two game sevens? Will it be after just one game one? We don't know. We'll find out tomorrow night. And you have a whole weekend to watch Borat because that's going to be the next Rewatchables on Monday. Enjoy the weekend. I will see you on Sunday or Sunday night. I don't have a few lives with him.

[C]

On the wayside.

[A]

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