← The Bill Simmons Podcast
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Indiana’s Incredible Finals Run, a Knicks Summer Strategy Session, and the 'Inside the NBA' ESPN Fit With Ryen Russillo and Van Lathan Jr.
02:03:37
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- [00:00]
Bill Simmons
This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. What do I look forward to every NBA playoff season? Well, I'm always hoping the Celtics do well. I'm always hoping we have great storylines, great games, great matchups, great game Sevens. I just hope for good basketball. But the NBA playoffs are even better with Michelob Ultra, the official beer partner of the NBA. Plus, they're getting fans closer to the game with a chance to win courtside tickets and more. Enter now at michelobaltra.com courtside Michelob Ultra Superior Access Courtside 2024-25 sweepstakes. No purchase necessary. Open to US residents 21 or older. Ends on July 1, 2025. Multiple entry periods. Visit michelobochra.com SuperiorAccess Courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and official rules. Message and data rates may apply. Void where prohibited. It's the Bill Simmons Podcast. We are part of the Ringer Podcast Network where I'm doing some culture stuff over the next couple days. I'm going to be on the Prestige TV podcast because I may or may not have banged out the entire season of the Better Sister with Jessica Biel and Elizabeth Banks, and I don't know how prestigious it was, but it's worth discussing. So I think Joanna Robinson and I are going to do a podcast about it tomorrow. So stay tuned for that. You can hear they did the season finale, your friends and neighbors on there as well. We're about we're heading into a weird TV show cycle right now. At least we have the Bear coming up and think stranger things, but for the most part, the summer is a little rocky. So it was exciting that the Better Sister was at least watchable. Gonna talk about that. And then rewatchables Monday night. It's me and Kyle Brandt. It's our fourth Steven Seagal movie. Four too many or four too few? You decide. This is, I think, the most fun we've had talking about a Steven Skall movie we did out for Justice. Did anyone see Richie? We still don't know, but we're going to find out and break it down during that pod. And I had a lot of laughs. So that is coming Monday night. You can watch it as a video podcast on Spotify. You can watch it on The Ringer Movies YouTube channel. You can watch all the clips and videos from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. So I have Ryan Marcillo coming up because it's Sunday. We're taping this early. It's Sunday morning and then we're bringing in Van Lathan So we can do a three man booth. Because it's the spring of the three man booth, we might as well do a three man. That is all coming up next. We're gonna take a break. We're gonna bring in Pearl Jam and then Resilo next. This episode is presented by State Farm. It's no secret that great teams need great teammates. I've been saying this for years. And when it comes to insurance, State Farm is there to help you find the right coverage for your home car and more. Whether you need an in person or digital assist, they're ready. When Life hits you with a full court press. Get a game plan that helps fit your life. Talk to State Farm today. State Farm with the assist coverage options that are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. All right, Ryan Marcillo's here Sunday morning, June 1, 2025. I was getting a little sad in June. Marcillo means we're headed toward only so many basketball games left. The draft, free agency. Football's a little bit away. Couple good UFC events. SummerSlam you missed March pga. Not that two PGA left, British British Open that they now call the Open. And then what's the other one that's left? There's one more US Open. Gho no US Open. So there's some sports stuff left. But I always get sad because we're just running out of basketball and we had one of the most fascinating playoff results I can remember the Indiana Pacers making the Finals 28 to 1 before the playoffs to make it, Pascal Siakam was 65 to 1 to be the Finals MVP. This is one of the biggest aberration we've made the finals teams that we've had certainly since I've known you, but even going back even to when we were kids and yet I feel like it's the right result. I feel like they were the best team and I think they would have beaten Boston even with no Tatum injury. I think this would have been a bad matchup if you throw in Zombie Porzingis. I just think they would have beaten them anyway. Your thoughts on the Pacers headed to the Finals?
- [04:44]
Ryan Rosillo
Thought it'd be a close series between them in New York. Wasn't 100% sure pick the Pacers and then as you saw it play out, there's just another gear that they get to that the Knicks aren't capable of and certainly with Brunson's offensive ability. And then if OG gets it going, you know Bridges, I think everybody's a little too down on him knowing how important he was in that Boston series. So I, I know that there's like a Knicks obit that we're probably going to be doing a little bit later. And then when you watch the whole thing play out, it's like when the Pacers really get rolling, they. They felt like, I mean, this is not a fluke. They're the better basketball team of these two teams. And the fact that you can dig into some of this Knicks stuff with the starters, and you always had the Cat or Brunson option to attack, where, when you get Halliburton going and once he starts seeing, like, what you want to do, like his familiarity with the opponent, and this will come into some of the Finals preview stuff, like once he starts, like, getting to play the same team over and over again for that guy and how brilliant he is as a player, like, you're just going to be at a disadvantage because of his size and his passing. And then, you know, once he starts adding the shot in there. I can't believe, just to be honest, I can't believe Siakam won Eastern Conference Finals MVP over. Over Halliburton in this one. I was as surprised as Halliburton, who took a step forward to grab the trophy and it wasn't his.
- [05:59]
Bill Simmons
I thought it was dead even, except for the part that he made one of the crazy shots in recent playoff history. And I thought that was going to swing it to him because of that. Game one three plus, Casiakam was awesome in Game two, awesome in Game four, and awesome in Game six. And so in three of the four, plus with the Turner foul trouble, they really needed him to defend Towns. So I see the case. I would have voted for Halbert, okay.
- [06:23]
Ryan Rosillo
And Siakam, who, you know, after Game one, I was really down on, and I think with Siakam, my history is that at times it's harder for him to get it going on his own. On the other side of things, where he's such a perfect fit for this Pacers team, when Siakam gets out on the break and you think you have the angle on him because he's so big and he, he maps out his steps perfectly and there's this, this Euro thing and his strides are at it.
- [06:51]
Bill Simmons
He's one first layup he does off the Euro step, I think there's like three people in the league who have.
- [06:56]
Ryan Rosillo
That move and that you can think like, oh, this guy doesn't dribble that much and it doesn't really matter. And he's just perfect for what the Pacers want to do when they want to get out on the break. I just thought between Halliburton's game one heroics, which really, it was more nith his basically flawless game four, I mean 32, 15 and 12, zero turnovers and.
- [07:19]
Bill Simmons
Then finishing game six the second half.
- [07:21]
Ryan Rosillo
Especially when he decided to put this thing away last night, it was him. And I think the voters like looked at 3 point percentage, those that voted for Siakam and went, all right, you know, he, he, Siakam lit it up from three, I'll give it to him. And, and I just. There's too many times these finals and conference finals MVP awards where I think it's too much stat counting on the votes and you're not really looking like who at this time through six games was the most valuable to the team. And it's almost like a quarterback a bit with Halliburton. So I'm probably too biased for somebody who's just in control of all these possessions. The same way with Tatum and Jaylen Brown in the Easter Conference finals, I was like, what?
- [08:00]
Bill Simmons
Well, that's the thing. So I felt the same way. And I thought Siakam was incredible, especially some of the stuff he did defensively and the intensity and just how much, how many miles he was covering, the speed he was playing at. It never seemed like he got tired. I thought he was incredible. I'm just, I'm on record. I felt this way last year with Tatum and Brown in the Eastern Finals. Like the best part in the team should always win this award unless it is so clear that somebody else was so much more impactful than them. That's the only time I can see it like you can even go back over the course of history with some of the Finals MVPs. I just don't agree with some of them. You know, it's not like who was slightly better than somebody else on a team. At some point you have to grandfather in the importance of the best guy on a team to what that team does game after game after game. And Halburn's the best guy in this team. It's his team. The pace they play, it's, it belongs to him. It's like, it's almost like in the super bowl we don't go, oh yeah, maybe the quarterback wasn't the most important today. Maybe it was the receiver. We always give it to the quarterback unless they were terrible or they don't have the stats. But in basketball we don't have this.
- [09:10]
Ryan Rosillo
212 yards receiving, three touchdown, you know, like, there are certainly cases, and I.
- [09:15]
Bill Simmons
I think somebody has five sacks and the defense gives up three points, and you're like, all right, maybe the. Maybe that defensive end should have won it. But for the most part, we give it to the QB because they're the most important player.
- [09:26]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. And I. I think you would get heat for saying, like, somebody should be grandfathered in based on their status. And I know that's not what you're saying. You're saying over the course of two weeks, like, Tatum being in control of every single possession should matter. And I. I'll Never get over 2015 with Iguodala getting it over Curry. Curry's the only reason they're winning that series. The only. And Cleveland's injuries. But that to have Steph get double teamed and then kind of figure out the double team, and then everything kind of opens up around it and they're like, yeah, but Iguodala had to defend LeBron Parker.
- [09:56]
Bill Simmons
No. 7 was terrible. Where it's like, okay, he. He. He scored. They swept. He had a lot of points. Duncan's the best player in the league. He's the whole reason they're there. He's the guy in the meetings. Cleveland's like, we gotta figure out this Tim Duncan thing.
- [10:11]
Ryan Rosillo
By the way, this one is not nearly as egregious. I was just surprised because after game one, you're right. Siakam. And, you know, he's just. There are times with him where I'm like, is he initiating anything on his own? And it'll feel like there's really long gaps. But the way he comes out in game two, because clearly he probably felt like he left a lot on the table in game one. You know, he starts getting right, like when you're hitting, step backs into OG Then I'm like, okay, like, here we go. Uh, you could see at the beginning of game, too, where he. He clearly, like, went to bed, thought about it, was like, I gotta come out and be a lot more aggressive. So I don't think this one's as egregious of those two things. The other part.
- [10:49]
Bill Simmons
Didn't you think about it? With six minutes left, when it felt like the Pacers might win, I did think to myself, huh, this will be an interesting Finals MVP vote, because we only have nine people voting. Not like they have a hundred nine people. You only need five to vote for one side. And that's what happened with Siakam. He went five to four.
- [11:05]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, it was five. I was. I didn't think he was going to win it.
- [11:09]
Bill Simmons
Can I tell you, Can I give you a bigger picture thing on this?
- [11:12]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah.
- [11:12]
Bill Simmons
I don't think we should give away the conference finals mvp. I don't like it. I just don't like it. I think it, I think it works against everything that, like that Pacer story, the thing they did with their team, how selfless they were, how awesome that team was to watch for three rounds. And then you have to like, basically give somebody a trophy and designate you were the most important. Here's your trophy. I didn't like it last year with the Celtics either. I, I don't like it in general, and I don't really understand the point of this. Like, if you were going to tell me the Eastern Conference playoffs mvp, that's a little more interesting, right? It's like, hey, for the first three rounds, here's. This would be a better kind of capturing of who mattered the most for the first three rounds. But when you go to a series, then you end up with dumb shit like this where Hal Burton is clearly the most important guy on the team. It'd be like in the mid-2000s if, if it was like, yep, Nash. Nash wasn't the, the Western Conference Finals mvp. It was actually Raja Bell. It was actually Sean Marion. It's like, no, it's Nash's team. He should win. Unless he was absolutely terrible. Anyway, I'm just not a fan.
- [12:21]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I mean, the NBA clearly made a push here for more awards and to name the greats of the past. And so that's fine.
- [12:30]
Bill Simmons
How about the Larry Bird Eastern Conference playoffs mvp?
- [12:34]
Ryan Rosillo
I can't get worked up about this.
- [12:36]
Bill Simmons
Me neither. How did Indy pull this off? Have a theory on top of how good they were? And they beat a 64 win team and they beat Giannis. So the Knicks were relatively new with these five guys. Right. And just their style. And they were only playing seven guys. Everybody's playing big minutes, they want to play slower. If you look at some of the. Especially look at game two of that Celtics series, that's just the kind of. It was like 91, 90. That's what the Knicks. The lower the score is, the better it is for the Knicks. Slower the game goes, better it is for the Knicks. And you have all the sample size of studying the Knicks and the Pacers were clearly like, we're going to run this team doesn't play enough guys. They don't want to play this pace. They don't get back on defense. They have two liabilities. We have to keep pushing the Pace, keep pushing the pace. It was almost like in football when somebody's like this. This team only has four guys in the D line. The more plays we run, the more they keep them on the field. They're going to wear down as the game went along, and I felt like that's what happened over the course of the series. Game 5, New York comes back. Indy's not really running. They're not playing with the same pace. Game six, they ramp up the defensive pressure. They're taking off after every break. They're just running, running, running, trying to put them on their heels. And the Knicks couldn't handle it. And we're going to talk about the Knicks later when Van comes on. But I do think that's a real flaw for them. And I look back to round two with the Celtics in those first two games, and it's just they. They played right into the Knicks hands. We're going to walk it up and launch a bunch of threes. The Knicks are like, that's great, because once we get close to the end of the game, we're actually going to have a better chance to execute. And the Pacers were just like, we're going to do the opposite. Chaotic. Go nuts. We're going to wear you guys out. And it worked. And I just thought it was really, really brilliant how they attacked it. I really appreciated it, respected it.
- [14:27]
Ryan Rosillo
The pace part of it is just so alarming when it starts getting away from you. And I don't know who made the comment, but I had noticed it before. Before where I know I went to replay something and then I'll fast forward, like in the downtime where, you know, like, okay, it's out of bounds. I can jump ahead 10 seconds. I don't. I don't need all of this stuff with the Pacers games. You can't do it.
- [14:50]
Bill Simmons
No.
- [14:50]
Ryan Rosillo
Because you'll miss. Like, you'll hit fast forward on something where you think it's dead if I'm behind, you know, Right. Next thing I know, like, two guys in the Pacers are getting back on defense after a make, pointing at each other. And so early in the series is like, you can't assume, like almost every other game that you're still going to be fast forwarding before the inbounds.
- [15:11]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [15:12]
Ryan Rosillo
And the number of transition buckets, which shouldn't happen after makes. Of all the things you could be. Disappoint. Disappointed about with the Knicks, which generally on this season, I'm not disappointed with the Knicks at all. I thought this was a really Good season for them and we'll get to.
- [15:26]
Bill Simmons
They won 11 playoff games.
- [15:28]
Ryan Rosillo
Exactly. The thing I think is really frustrating and it's, it's something that's happening at the NBA level that's weird. You remember how like back courts, all of a sudden just overnight it just felt like overnight nobody cared about these dangerous potential backcourt passes. I never remember seeing that for 40 years of watching the NBA. And then all of a sudden like a couple years ago, it just decided guys were like, yeah, I don't care, like maybe he's back court and then we'll see what happens. Right. Something else that you know, you know very early on in whether it's you're playing or watching it, is that on the shooter side, if you're going up against a team that runs like the opposite deep player, not meaning deep to the basket, but deep back to the half court line, like he has to be completely locked in, makes or misses to combat the Pacers. In this case, their guy leaking out and wanting to run every single time.
- [16:25]
Bill Simmons
Almost like a safety who has to make sure nobody's gonna get behind him.
- [16:28]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, like never come up and help and run support. You have to. And so if the other guy is shooting, that's on you. Because it's really hard on the shooter being the furthest away to then try to get back into transition defense. But sometimes that's going to be on you. And so wherever that communication break down, it's like, hey, you have to be the person that gets back. You'd think you'd get more familiar when you're playing the Pacers every other night. And the Knicks never got more for like that must have drove Tibbs in this whenever. And they'll probably put themselves to the pain of watching the tape of all of this stuff. The number of times that kept happening and it's like, look, even if we're going to lose, let's stop letting him do that. They were throwing like end zone corner fades on some of these things going like, I assume Toppin is going to win. And like there were times the Pacers guys were catching it and it wasn't even in stride. It was just like, throw it up there, Argyle, win the ball and then let's see what happens.
- [17:24]
Bill Simmons
They even do it to Thomas Bryant that he had a couple of those where he's just like stumbling toward the basket hoping to get fouled.
- [17:30]
Ryan Rosillo
Thomas Bryant, sneaky all time teammate. That dude was happy last night.
- [17:35]
Bill Simmons
He is. You know, it's interesting that Turner said at one point, I'VE been playing against that guy since aau and I forgot he was kind of a good prospect. He's had an interesting bounced around career and then basically because Tony Bradley gets hurt, he ends up being one of the stars of, of game six. Yeah, they used all of the Knicks weaknesses against them. Townsend, Robinson, you're going to play them together. You get a lot of rebounds, but you're going to be really slow getting back. Right? Brunson, if you're going to have a guy who's this ball dominant and you're not going to have a lot of assists in a game and everything's going to run through one guy, well, we're going to make him fucking work. 94ft. We're just going to throw guys at him. But your guy, Nemhard, who I felt like as the first half was going along, it felt like he was going to become the key of the game because Neesmith wasn't right. Neesmith was hurt. You could see it. He wasn't the same guy. And they needed Nemhardt for Brunson, but it didn't seem like he trusted his own shot. And the Knicks were just leaving him open. I think he was 2 for 7 in the first half, but all the shots were wide open. And the Knicks were clearly like, hey, Nemhardt, knock yourself out. Go ahead, take, dude, you want to drive and get that little 15 footer. We're giving it to you. We're going to leave you open the corner. And he had to step up in the second half. I hate to do the ESPN halftime. You got them hurts. Got to step up. But he had to step up offensively because they had to keep him out there. Not only did he step up, he took over the game against Brunson defensively in a way that for two years he wasn't able to do. It was like, it was almost like he unlocked something. And he started frustrating Brunson. When Brunson headbutted him and they didn't see it, you knew the game was over. So it was like he got him, he broke him.
- [19:21]
Ryan Rosillo
I bought a Nemhardt T shirt last night after the game.
- [19:25]
Bill Simmons
Not surprised.
- [19:26]
Ryan Rosillo
I. I don't even care if it's cool or fashionable. I'm so. I'm. I actually am mad it took us this long to talk about him. I don't care. Look, he went 6 of 12. He ended up hitting a couple late shots, right? And it was ugly early. He couldn't hit anything. He was open.
- [19:41]
Bill Simmons
Couldn't hit anything for four games.
- [19:43]
Ryan Rosillo
You Could. Yeah, you could tell too. Like, he was thinking about it. Like, all right, let me settle in here.
- [19:49]
Bill Simmons
And let the hitch before he took the wide open three. Yeah.
- [19:52]
Ryan Rosillo
But what he had to do against Brunson in the absence of Nismith and I, I always wonder, like, you're always sitting there thinking, okay, like, what would you do against Brunson? Like, how do you handle this guy whose handle is so tight he has this low center of gravity. He's like a bull. He's so strong, his footwork is perfect. Just when you think you have him. And then to add in his foul baiting stuff, which is. I'm not going to miss watching that. Because with. With Brunson. Well, with Brunson, it's not free throws.
- [20:21]
Bill Simmons
Me neither.
- [20:22]
Ryan Rosillo
It's if you really. Look, I don't know why I do this to myself, because I appreciate him so much and I really enjoyed that Sixers Knicks series so much too. But I also enjoyed both fan bases screaming about the other team star in working the game the way they do. And certainly if it had been a Brunson SGA matchup, like, I was a little worried of, of, like, how that was going to be received. But the problem with Brunson is that Brunson is doing it off of the ball. He's doing it on inbounds. He's doing it whenever a screen is set. Like, he is trying to do it the entire fucking game. So if you decide you want to hate, watch that part of it. Like, I work myself up into a lather a couple games ago because I go, like, let me just keep track. Like, I have a Brunson bullshit tracker that I keep in my notes throughout the entire course of a game to just be like, yeah, no, that on eBay.
- [21:11]
Van Lathan
No.
- [21:11]
Ryan Rosillo
ESPN's talked to me about it a bit after the Heat index because the Heat didn't have a very good playoff.
- [21:17]
Bill Simmons
Maybe trying to sell it. Like, yeah, that's interesting.
- [21:20]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, like a private company that's acquired or something like that. But so when I'm thinking about how hard it is deal with Brunson, because then you're still waiting for him to get you and he's going to get the call. And at one point I was like, maybe the best thing is just to be as physical as possible with them the entire time. And then you're like, well, that isn't really going to work. What Nem Hart did, his physicality, that inbounds play where Brunson pushed him first, Nemhardt pushed him back the Retaliator ends up, Tyler Ford hits him. And we love Tyler Ford, but I'm like, tyler, how could you do that? After where Brunson kind of flops on the retaliation from Nemhardt here. But, like, whatever Nemhardt's approach was, it was more about his mentality of, like, when he hit the layup and then gave Brunson the ball back before all this happened, where it's like, I'm gonna be here all night.
- [22:08]
Bill Simmons
But I think Brunson had him psyched out for most of those two years. And then last night, he was like the. It was like the guy going after the guy who's been bullying him. I was watching it. Obviously, I'm on a couple Celtics text threads talking about the. All the stuff the Celtics should have done in the last round. And it's like, all the stuff the Pacers.
- [22:26]
Ryan Rosillo
I thank you for leaving me off of those, by the way.
- [22:28]
Bill Simmons
You're welcome. You're welcome. I'm watching the Pacers do all this stuff. The Celtics had better personnel to do all the same stuff, and they just didn't do it. Everything Indiana did to fuck with Brunson, the Celtics could have done. They had better players like Derek White. Couldn't have just done what Nemar did yesterday and just been like 94ft. I'm following you. I'm in your mug. I'm in your mug. When you get over half court, I'm going to make you work. Because the key with Brunson is you got to. You got to mess with them before he gets into the 20ft near the basket. It's got to be the other 75ft is where you have to get him. Make it hard for him to get the ball. Make it like later in the shot clock and then just keep whipping guys and keep making him try to get rid of the ball. Basically because the Knicks don't want to pass the ball. I was looking it up the net there. There was, you know, that stat head on Basketball Reference, only like 15 teams have won at least 10 playoff games, scored 100 plus points, and had less than 21 assists a game. Like, they don't share the ball.
- [23:34]
Ryan Rosillo
This was.
- [23:34]
Bill Simmons
The Knicks ended up. They were under 20 assists a game, and they averaged almost 110 points a game. They don't share the ball. They're ball dominant. And it's like, whoever gets the ball over half court, that guy has it. And the Pacers had to make it harder before they went into all their shit, which is what they did. And I'm sure Missoula was watching this, going nuts. I can't even imagine the regret the first two games specifically. I can't imagine the regret the Celtics had. They played it completely wrong. They had the wrong game plan. Everything in Indiana opposite. What a win for Carlisle. I mean, you think the 2011 finals is one of the great coaching out thinking four straight teams for four straight rounds, like runs anyone's ever had built around one star and a pretty weird team. And they just out thought everybody. And then he just did it again. So now he's like, now he moved up the ladder historically, I think to make the finals with this team. On top of the 2011 finals, on top of the 03 pistons that almost made it, the 04 pacers that almost made it the artest melee fucks up his chance to. That team probably wins the title if that doesn't happen. But this is now, I think, one of the four best coaches of the century. I don't think that's hyperbole.
- [24:51]
Ryan Rosillo
I don't think it is either. Because whenever you're talking to people that work on the NBA side of things, the number of years where it's say it's like a summer going into the fall conversation like, hey, what's going on? You know, whatever. And like especially when you do talk about those Dallas seems like, you know, how do you see the west or whatever. The number of times I would hear different staffs go like, well they've got Carlisle, so that's good for like another right. However many like whatever you think their floor is, like, move them up a couple seeds.
- [25:19]
Bill Simmons
Because that's Mike Tomlin almost where he's like, well that's 10 wins because they have Tomlin.
- [25:24]
Ryan Rosillo
I swear, man, I just wish. And I don't know if he's the guy to do it, even though. Have you ever met him?
- [25:33]
Bill Simmons
Carlisle? Yeah. Cause he did some ESPN stuff for a split second. He's interesting guy, nice guy.
- [25:39]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, we had him around, you know, when back in the Bristol days. And like if he came in and you could make any kind of connection, he would give you kind of this rise, smile and like open up a little bit. But if you didn't really have anything to offer, he. He wasn't like. He wasn't a guy that was going to walk in and just be like, what do you guys want to talk about? Like, let's go. And just different guys have different personalities. But that's the part of the game that I get frustrated with because I'd love to know like what Carlisle's talking about with his assistance. Like, okay, this is, I mean we can sit here and say, hey, they wanted to attack this. They wanted to try to get Cat confused with whether or not he was going to come up or whether he was going to be in drop and then if he's out, that we get to go with Brunson here. So there's some simple things that I think most of us that watch this game a lot can identify. But I would just love to know like when he's done. Like this is what we would do and these are the conversations that we would have and these, these were the debates that we would have. And here's something we did that we knew didn't work. And then here's how we corrected all of that stuff. I feel like there's still a massive disconnect with this sport that we all love where I would like to understand that stuff at a greater level. Finishing there. Because as an aside, how many years do you think you're going to reference the second round Celtics, Knicks thing? Because this is, this one is going to haunt you.
- [26:53]
Bill Simmons
Well, let's see what happens with Tatum because it all leads to, you know, it's definitely top four. The combo of those two games, definitely top four. Worst Celtics losses.
- [27:08]
Ryan Rosillo
2010 is your worst finals experience, right?
- [27:10]
Bill Simmons
Game seven. Yeah, that's, that's the worst.
- [27:13]
Ryan Rosillo
Were you there?
- [27:14]
Bill Simmons
I was, I was actually under the basket. The Lakers were had for the second half. Watching Gasol just run amok against a wiped out Rasheed Wallace. That was the worst. There's been some other bad ones.
- [27:27]
Ryan Rosillo
Watches the Celts not be able to get a rebound in person. Pretty close.
- [27:31]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. And Gasol especially, who they had kind of manhandled in 08 and then was. It was a little like numb hard last night. The, the Carlisle thing. Remember that Dallas team he had when they had Luka and Porzingis and it just didn't feel right and they had it for a couple years and they even, they, they, they had that Clipper series that they lost 4, 3 the year after the COVID But it was clear. It wasn't, it was like has he lost the team? I remember even talking to you on the pot about it. Like Carlisle kind of run his course. Why can't he unlock this team? And now you see the team that he has now and it's just clear like this is, this is just such a better type of team for him to have. And maybe that maybe when you're coaching Luka and he has the ball all the time. And you can't really have a lot of input in a Luka offense. Right. It kind of is what it is. It's like having an input in a James Harden offense. At some point, somebody just, here's the car keys. They're just going to do what they want. Like, how is Rick Carlisle really going to help it? So it's interesting that not only does he. He pulls that Halburn trade off and then the Siakam piece, which I think we were all like, okay, they didn't really give up that much. You got to do it. But turns out to be this incredibly impactful trade, and they really didn't give up that much. And they gave up. What'd they give up? They gave up. I had it on my notes here somewhere, but it was like just a couple of meaningless firsts and a couple contracts, and that gets their 2026 unprotected.
- [29:11]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, because he was. I remember when the trade happened, there was something that I wasn't good on where it was like, all right, so Siakam, like, this is actually kind of like a Knicks conversation. Because this time of year, or even after the transactional stuff, it's like, okay, but does good mean Euro championship contender? It's like, Jesus, like, how many of those deals do you think are even available every year? So, like, what's wrong with just getting better? But he was going to be a free agent, remember, in the deal. So it was a bit like, you're going to give up these firsts. And it really felt like one of them wasn't even going to be that big of a deal.
- [29:46]
Bill Simmons
It was the 24 first. That in a bad draft, the 26 unprotected was the one who was like, whoa, okay, that's. Yeah, that's not nothing.
- [29:56]
Ryan Rosillo
Right. And it was the Bruce Brown deal. Cause remember, he had the contract. Yeah. Which again, that contract was so funny because he ended up making all of that money on all this stuff. So it was the Jacoby Walter pick, and then it's a 26 first. So you're thinking, okay, fine, the players don't mean anything. And you structured the Brown contract this way in the first place, but you.
- [30:17]
Bill Simmons
Also now have to pay Siakam.
- [30:19]
Ryan Rosillo
And it's like, ooh, I didn't know if he was that worth. I didn't know if he was going to stay there. And then as soon I said, look, if they keep him, fine. But if you're doing this and he's an expiring, like, what are you doing Then as soon as I had said it, somebody text me, it was like, he's doing an extension. It's already understood. Like, it's, it's done. The part that I would criticize myself on with the Siakam thing, I love this self evaluation.
- [30:42]
Bill Simmons
This is why you're one of the best.
- [30:44]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, because I, I've seen him have playoff moments where I'm like, where is he? And then I think he becomes a little predictable at times. And then I, I felt like all of that was reinforced where he was relying on game one. And then from that point on, the guy was a stud. So I give it to him and I, I think I've even said at times, like debating, like a couple years, you're like, man, am I going to vote this guy third team, all NBA? And looking at it, and it's like, I probably don't give him enough credit for the stability level that he is at knowing, you know, he's never going to flirt with some of these other guys that the guys were paying all this attention to anyway. The other part of the criticism was just that, well, all right, Siakam's pretty good. But then you were like, hey, where are the Pacers? Like, who's demanding to be traded here? Who are we saving our cap space for? So now we're playing Siakam 37 minutes a night with a guy who's had a track record, who's done some things in the playoffs, despite this weird stretch where he didn't seem like he could hit a three in the playoffs for like a bunch of years in a row.
- [31:41]
Bill Simmons
That's part of rub against him.
- [31:43]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. I think the part that we all need to do a better job with is like, you're assuming a lot that you're supposed to wait around for the better option than Siakam.
- [31:53]
Bill Simmons
Okay, well, but it was a. I think it was a red flag that Toronto was trying to. Didn't want to keep him, I think was the red flag. But the thing, the thing I remember us talking about when it happened was, you know, we do like, we do these Ringer 100 lists when you actually list all the players. And it's like he's always. Well, he's always in the 35 to 50 range, right?
- [32:14]
Ryan Rosillo
He's.
- [32:15]
Bill Simmons
He always plays 35 to 37 minutes a game. He's been in big spots like in the 2019 Raptors, 37 minutes a game on a team that won the title 19 and 7. He's made a second team, all NBA and a third team all NBA, last two years in the playoffs for the Pacers. He was 21 and 7. Um, and I, I think it was really smart, the question I had. And you really felt it. Cause they started out 10 and 15 rosillo and it was like, is this guy the right fit for them? Because Halbert wants to play fast. And it doesn't seem like Siakam always wants to play fast. And it seemed to me, especially when Halbert wasn't playing well the first two months, it always seemed a little push and pull with the pace with them. And I think what's been great about Siakam is he's, he's now like supercharged himself. The pace he plays with now, I've never seen him play like that. I think that was one of the reasons he was so special in this conference finals was he was, you know, flying. It really did look like mid 2000. Sean Marion, that was what it reminded me of, like some of the stuff. I mean, I think he's a little bit of a better offensive player, but I thought he was that impactful offensively and his ability to guard basically every player on the Knicks, you know, you don't ideally want him on Brunson, but if he got on a switch with them, he could handle them. But he could also guard towns, he could guard bridges or an obi, like pick a nick, he could guard him. So I thought, I don't know, I, I, I, I, I wasn't like upset that he won. But I just think in general I don't love those things when I. So most unconventional finals teams we've ever had. And I would define unconventional as your season wasn't very good or you don't have like a, a clear top 10, top 12 guy in the league. So we just go back 25 years. The 23 heat team that beat the Celts in seven was 44 and 38. But they had Butler just for whatever reason in that Buck series. And for a little stretch there just seemed like he was one of the best six guys in the world. So it made sense. But when you look back, maybe not as much 2020 heat bubble year 44 and 29. I just think all bets are off in the bubble. I thought of the 14 spurs. Cause they didn't, they had like Duncan at the tail end. Kawhi wasn't Kawhi yet. Parker at the tail end of his prime. They went 62 and 20 that year. They made the finals the year before. Parker was second team all NBA and then he played 29 minutes a game. You know, it was a little unconventional, but I can't really give it to him. 07 Cavs 50 and 32. But they had young LeBron who, you know, that fit the prototype of like, you can make the finals with an awesome guy.04 pistons. They're 54 and 28. But that was probably the best defensive team of the century. I don't know how unconventional that was. And then the 99 Knicks is the only other ones. Lockout season. They went 27 and 23. Ewing gets hurt, they're the eighth seed, and they somehow get to the finals anyway. I would put the 25 Pacers up against almost anybody, especially the odds would reflect it. You're 28 to 1 when the conference and you win the conference. Even when we would talk about it on this pod and I. I think I was higher than them on them, than you. But I. And I also wouldn't have said this is the team that's going to make it. I thought they were sleepery, but I thought the Clippers were sleepy too, and they got bounced in round one. You know, I think this is about as weird as it gets. Rossillo for the finals. This is. This is as wild cardi as we've gotten in either conference.
- [36:01]
Ryan Rosillo
Do you know the last time there was a 14 matchup in the finals? When your least favorite finals of all time.
- [36:14]
Bill Simmons
Which one? I have a lot of least favorite finals.
- [36:17]
Ryan Rosillo
We just talked about it. 2010. Lakers, Celtics, seven games. Do you know how many times the 4 seed has won?
- [36:27]
Bill Simmons
It's not good.
- [36:29]
Ryan Rosillo
One time.
- [36:31]
Bill Simmons
You know how many times a team that was plus 200 or more in the odds heading into the final? Says one. I think it's twice. I think it was the 95. The 95 rockets and the 04 pistons were the two.
- [36:47]
Ryan Rosillo
Do you remember the. The four seed that beat a one seed?
- [36:56]
Bill Simmons
Who was it?
- [36:57]
Ryan Rosillo
Your Celtics in 69?
- [37:00]
Bill Simmons
69, yeah.
- [37:01]
Ryan Rosillo
That's. Which is one of the weirder finals. But, you know, there's just some similarity. Well, there's actually no similarities because that's the Boston team that has this legendary run and it's like, okay, they're done. But yeah, I think there's. There's still a lot of meat on the bone of, like, who the Pacers are because as we sit here all impressed with them, I am undaunted in that, like, this is normally not how it goes.
- [37:28]
Bill Simmons
Let's take a break. We're going to bring in Van Lath and talk about the Knicks. This episode is Brought to you by Michelob Ultra. We all have our routines during the playoffs. I'm the same man who once wore the same T shirt every single day during the 2003 baseball playoffs. I am the same person who will tell my wife to come into the room when I need a team to win because she's good luck during the NBA playoffs. These are things that happen. Well, Michelob Ultra, a great addition to any game time routine. It is a superior lay beer. It's really great. And they're getting fans closer to the game with exclusive prizes including courtside seats to see your favorite team play. Signed memorabilia, lots more. Enter for your chance to win@mcglobultra.com Courtside McLobe Ultra Superior Access Courtside 2024-2025 Sweepstakes. No purchase necessary. Open a US residence 21 or older. Ends on July 1, 2025. Multiple entry periods. Visit michelobaltra.com SuperiorAccess Courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and official rules. Message and data rates may apply. Void where prohibited. All right, Van Lathan is joining us. We're going to get wacky. Van, how are you feeling about the Pacers being in the NBA Finals? We just talked about this for 35 minutes.
- [38:54]
Van Lathan
I think it's good.
- [38:56]
Ryan Rosillo
Wow.
- [38:57]
Van Lathan
I mean, I don't know.
- [38:58]
Bill Simmons
Wow.
- [38:58]
Van Lathan
Yeah.
- [38:58]
Bill Simmons
Great start.
- [39:00]
Van Lathan
I mean, look, what do you guys want me to say? I think they're a fun team.
- [39:03]
Ryan Rosillo
Why did we book this guy?
- [39:04]
Van Lathan
There you go. I mean, this. I mean, I don't. I'm really kind of. I think it's a much better story if the Knicks are in the Finals.
- [39:12]
Bill Simmons
Okay. Make the case.
- [39:15]
Van Lathan
The Knicks just bring a lot with them to the Finals. They bring a lot of different storylines. A team that has an incredible cultural identity in the NBA, but when you look back in their history, just not a ton of winning. So that means you have something that you normally don't get, which is a gigantic market with a storied franchise, but also a starving fan base. And probably the most fun fan base in the entire country in terms of their ability to be both funny, violent, ridiculous. You know, if you saw a Knicks fan with their dog died like blue and orange, or if you saw somebody walking down the street and they had an anaconda or like a python on their shoulders and it had, like a Knicks cap on it, you'd be like, that's a Knicks fan. And they're a fun fan base. Yeah, you're right. For. For that reason. And kind of a scrappy, interesting team. I like the Pacers. I'm a Tyrese Halliburton fan. They have an amazing fan base. They haven't been there a while in a while, but they're more of a fun basketball team. The Knicks were more of a fun cultural team to me. And culture always beats basketball when you're talking about who you want to see compete.
- [40:40]
Bill Simmons
So Van's a starfucker is what he's telling us. Priscilla?
- [40:43]
Van Lathan
All I'm telling you is that it would have been fun to have the mix in it.
- [40:46]
Bill Simmons
He was like, oh, that's Chalamet. I've seen some of his movies.
- [40:50]
Ryan Rosillo
Can I have the. Can you just ISO for me here for like a minute on this?
- [40:55]
Van Lathan
Yeah.
- [40:55]
Bill Simmons
You want to go Brunson style?
- [40:56]
Ryan Rosillo
No, no, go for it. Well, yeah, yeah, it might be hard. I'm going to. I'm going to take my time, harden it.
- [41:02]
Bill Simmons
Okay, we'll go stand in the corners.
- [41:03]
Ryan Rosillo
Get out of my way. Daniel House. So the celebrity shots, I'll admit, like, I'm watching a regular season Knicks game and they do Celebrity Row and you're like, okay. Like, oh, wow, hey, Bernard King's there again. And then we finish with Spike Lee, who a lot of us are kind of like when he started trying to glom onto the St. John's thing, like, dude, are you serious? Like, come on, what are you doing? But then when the next thing you notice, it's like, hey, it's that guy again. And for whatever reason, like our guy Miles Teller, he's right next to Chalamet and they don't even give him a graphic. Which I imagine when you're at a certain level as like a pretty major actor in Hollywood, when they give the graphic to the person like Chalamet, who I understand what level he's at, but you don't even get a graphic. Like, that's the kind of thing where you're talking to your PR people and I like firing them. I would say I was next to Chalamet after a Lakers game once, and I almost. I was so close to just saying, hey, just so you know, your PR people keep turning down Bill Simmons, and we know it's not getting to you. Here's Bill's number. Just go on the pod and talk some hoops. But I was like, I'm not going to do that because security might come running over.
- [42:19]
Van Lathan
Don't do that.
- [42:21]
Ryan Rosillo
I don't. I don't care. I don't. I don't need it. These celebrities that have to stand up fucking courtside, like, you don't have to stand up. There's nobody in front of you. It's like having a beach house and complaining about an obstructed view.
- [42:33]
Bill Simmons
Fair, fair point.
- [42:34]
Ryan Rosillo
There's this massive sideline courtside bullshit that goes along with this. Like, I, I felt bad for the, like Mike Eps was like, I'm around. Because the Pacers just didn't have any balance when they were going with Celebrity Row on some of these broadcasts. So yes, I am guilty of wondering at times during a regular season broadcast, but knowing that the finals was going to be just like we were going to see a lot of it. And I don't know what Oklahoma City was going to do because you just can't hang with Stiller in this lineup.
- [43:01]
Bill Simmons
That's where you got to bring in Hater. Hater is like the only one they have.
- [43:05]
Ryan Rosillo
My other is, yeah, we get Chenoweth out there, I can make that happen, Eric Chenoweth.
- [43:12]
Bill Simmons
But.
- [43:15]
Ryan Rosillo
The Knicks, the MSG crowd, whenever they would do Celebrity Row, very anti jam bands. Trey was always right there on the baseline. Trey from Fish, you can't fucking give him a graphic. Derek Trucks is over there. So I noticed a lot of anti jam band stuff. I noticed the same five or six people over and over again. And if it had been Knicks okc, it was going to be really one sided and kind of annoying. And it's like, we got it. The lady from Law and Order is there again.
- [43:44]
Van Lathan
I want you guys to notice something. When I talked about the Knicks and their fan base, I talked about the people. I talked about the people with dogs and outside fighting. You're a man of the harassing ESPN people. I talked about those people. Those are the people that I talked about. I couldn't care less about the Celebrity Row type of stuff. I don't like it. It's not my type of deal. But I think the Knicks fans are a cool fan base up or down. And I just wanted to see them in the finals. But I like the Pacers. Like the Pacers are a fun basketball team run up and down the court, you know, three and a half seconds or less. It's fun, it's fun. I'm, I'm, I'm here for it. I'm ready for it. But I thought I really wanted to see the Knicks pull it off. I have no idea why I was rooting for the Knicks, but I was.
- [44:30]
Bill Simmons
I am pro Pacers fan base. And they've also. So they won three ABA titles in 70 and 72 and 73, nothing since half century drought for them. And then OKC is never one. And. And if you give them, give them the Sonics title and say that was their last title, I have two middle fingers for you because that wasn't their title. Just like that foot. Just like the five Minneapolis titles do not belong to the Los Angeles Lakers, that's fucking bullshit, too. The Sonics existed, they won the title, and it does not belong to OKC anyway. The Knicks. So the under reaction would be, we made the Final Four, we beat Boston, we had a really good season. We have really good players on good contracts. Why wouldn't we run this back? The east is going to be worse. Tatum's out for the year. Cleveland, God only knows what's going to happen with them. Indiana might be having this miracle run. Like, we're really talented. We can fix this. The overreaction would be, we've got to make trades. We got to fire our coach. Van, would you underreact or overreact?
- [45:40]
Van Lathan
I would underreact, but they're going to overreact. There's just too much for everything that they were able to accomplish, and they had, by any metric, a really successful season. Right. There's too much uncertainty for them. When you talk to people that are close to the Knicks or like in and around the franchise, like, he's like.
- [46:02]
Bill Simmons
Having shams here now. Jesus.
- [46:04]
Van Lathan
Well, hey, if you're connected to Tommy, oh, my God. When you're connected to Tommy Alter, you're one step from almost every player in the NBA and probably the high school players as well. He knows them all.
- [46:17]
Ryan Rosillo
I think he's coming through LA with Kevin Herder. Banner, you in on that lunch?
- [46:21]
Van Lathan
I probably will be Kevin Herder. And then it'll be Herder. It'll be Herder, Tommy, and then.
- [46:30]
Bill Simmons
Name nondescript white star Caitlin Clark's nephew.
- [46:37]
Van Lathan
You don't know who that other person's gonna be, but they're gonna be somebody. You know, it might be Bill Hader, it could be John Krasinski. It's gonna be like, hey, you know, Krasinski's coming. He's meeting us at Babel.
- [46:49]
Bill Simmons
Haters coming. Don't talk about Barry with him. He doesn't want to talk about it.
- [46:55]
Ryan Rosillo
I want to talk about David Lee Roth with him.
- [46:57]
Van Lathan
Yeah.
- [46:58]
Bill Simmons
Oh.
- [46:58]
Van Lathan
Oh, wow. Yeah. So, yeah, what does it matter?
- [47:01]
Ryan Rosillo
You got school tomorrow.
- [47:05]
Van Lathan
But it seems like the people inside and close to them, they're unhappy with the brand of basketball that's being played or cat's ability to defend and to stay and drop during this whole time they want something different like this doesn't seem to.
- [47:20]
Bill Simmons
Did you see the. Now they tell a story in the athletic that seemed to be in the athletic engine for four days in case they lost game five. It was up. I think that was the fastest I've ever seen a piece like that up. I don't think the game would have been over for 20 minutes and there was a 4,000 word athletic story with all the issues the team had and then crammed into a couple paragraphs for like two sentences was after they lost to the Nick to the Pacers last night and it was clearly all written. And Towns and Thibodeau were the two kind of stars of the piece in not a good way. Van.
- [47:55]
Van Lathan
Yeah, I mean, I would underreact. I think they have a great core. I think they got a little injured towards the end of the year. Obviously nobody's hurt, but I think you had Cat with the knee. You had Mitchell Robinson also dealing with some things. I don't know how much you can get out of this team. I mean, obviously they need to add, you know, depth, but I don't know how much you can get out of.
- [48:16]
Bill Simmons
This team can add depth and also pay $210 million for seven games that they have.
- [48:22]
Van Lathan
I'm just talking about the problems that they have them. So I'm saying to me, because they are where they are, you know, see if they can run it back and get another magical run and get over the top this time.
- [48:31]
Bill Simmons
Brisillo, under or over.
- [48:34]
Ryan Rosillo
I feel like I added some tension here with Van. I think he's, he's.
- [48:38]
Bill Simmons
I'm glad Van loves it. The. The more attention the better for Van. This is where he thrives. You should have saw when I brought up Chewbacca during the Star wars pod how he. That was when the pod really took off.
- [48:49]
Van Lathan
You better watch out.
- [48:52]
Bill Simmons
Kyle Brand said Chewbacca does have an asshole.
- [48:56]
Van Lathan
I'm sure he. Of course he does. He has to take a shit. You better watch out. There are a lot of people out here in the Star wars celebration streets that are waiting to see you on one of these walks randomly in LA to tell you what.
- [49:08]
Bill Simmons
Chewbacca fans. Okay, yeah, I'll keep an eye out.
- [49:11]
Van Lathan
Watch out.
- [49:12]
Bill Simmons
If I see a big furry person walking forward to me, I'll just start running. Priscilla. Under, react or overreact.
- [49:18]
Ryan Rosillo
Underreact. Most wins since 2013. First Eastern Conference finals since 2000. They were oh and 10 against Cleveland, Boston and OKC. It felt like it was pretty clear that they were A step below all of those teams, and they end up being really competitive with the Pacers. I. I know that there's a bit of an assumption today, too. It's like, hey, if they hold on to Game one, then maybe it goes back to New York for game seven. I think that's. I don't like to just take a win away from a team and then give it to the other one and then say the next five would go the exact same way. Because as I like to say is all the outcomes are connected. The reason OKC lays a massive egg in Minnesota in Game three is because they've figured out in those two, three quarters in games one and two, they're like, we're just going to be better than these guys and it's going to be fine. The same reason why the Pacers up three one, lose Game five. And Siakam's like, hey, they played harder than us. Yeah, they were facing elimination. They were home. You knew you had one at home in your back pocket, and then you probably had another chance, you know, if it were going to go to game seven. So there's definitely a way you could talk yourself into the Knicks maybe being ready for a Game seven if that shot from Halliburton doesn't go down and send it to overtime. But this was a boring team that got a lot of coverage for a long time. They pieced it together in a really calculated way. They were smarter than everybody on Brunson. You know, he's a nice player. Nobody thought he was going to be. I'm not even sure they thought he was going to be this, the OG straight.
- [50:40]
Bill Simmons
Nobody thought. Anyone who says they thought that is insane. Nobody in a million years thought he was going to be a guy who averaged 30 points a game in the NBA.
- [50:48]
Ryan Rosillo
Rick. Rick. His dad is like, shit, I didn't know he was this nice.
- [50:51]
Bill Simmons
You know, I remember we did a POD segment that summer where we. Because remember, they were talking about whether they overpaid or not, and it wasn't even the max.
- [51:01]
Ryan Rosillo
Wasn'T it?
- [51:01]
Bill Simmons
Well, and we were like, we kind of liked it, but it was like, ah, who knows?
- [51:07]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, because I mean, it also had like that bad playoff series at the Mass. But I don't really hold that against. This is something that, Bill, you've taught me, especially with some of these younger guys that have these really big profiles and a nice regular season and all the counting stuff that we all love. And it's like your first taste of it out there, even if it's not A conference finals. Like, you see guys that just aren't super comfortable and they have to. You have to go through that. I think Brunson even had a little of that. And now he's like one of the most comfortable dudes ever in these huge moments. The cat thing is a risk. But you know, it's funny because every bad Randall game and every good cat game, you're like, how could Minnesota give up this guy? And then you see the cat struggles at times. You're like, this is why Minnesota was like, we're good to move on from this. And the fact that he's going to be 60 million in the last year of this deal, it still goes a bunch of years. The Bridges.
- [51:52]
Bill Simmons
Can I give you the. Can I give you the money quickly?
- [51:55]
Ryan Rosillo
It's massive.
- [51:56]
Bill Simmons
49. 49 next year. 53. 57.
- [52:01]
Ryan Rosillo
61.
- [52:02]
Bill Simmons
61. And unless they. Unless the league officially legalizes him being able to drive to the basket and kneeing guys in the balls as hard as he can, which I think they made a lot of progress with yesterday because it happened twice. If they legalize that, I think he'll be unstoppable. But I'm pretty sure that's not a legal play.
- [52:21]
Van Lathan
Man, it's just impossible to have a guy making that much money unless that guy is going to anchor your franchise and then like win. Like paying that much. He's become a complimentary player, a very important complimentary player there. But he's a complimentary player and you just not. You're not going to be able to win paying a complimentary player that much money. Especially if your ace is not one of the top five guys in the entire league.
- [52:47]
Bill Simmons
And Resila was about to mention the Bridges contract, which is the other looming piece of this 24.9 next year, then he's a free agent. But they can take care of him this summer, blow out the deal, make it longer, bigger. But now you're really locked into the team.
- [53:02]
Ryan Rosillo
God, yeah. But you're probably sitting there going. When Brunson also took what seemed unfathomable at the time, a four year deal for 1.56 instead of the five year 270 deal, which is like Peak Brady going, yeah, that's fine. I'll take way less than everybody else. Oh, we didn't bring in any receivers. Again, why did I take a pay cut?
- [53:20]
Bill Simmons
They did that to him for like five straight years too.
- [53:23]
Ryan Rosillo
Look, when this, when this team got rolling and you saw the pick and pop and pick and stuff, like all of the different combos of Brunson Cat where you've got these two great shooters. Cat for a big is is fine. Like, even when it's ugly, it still works way more than I ever want to think that it's going to work. When it starts, you're like, this is going to work. You're like, oh, it kind of worked again. Their offense by month. Let's go over it right now. October 3rd, best in the NBA. November, the best offense in the NBA. December 3rd, best offense in the NBA. January the sixth, best offense. February 13th, best offense. March the 21st, best offense. April 18th, I think was only like eight games pre All Star, the second best offense in the NBA. After the All Star break, the 11th best offense. So really this becomes a conversation of like what's going on here with this group, how much flexibility they have. The other problem is if you look at their starting five from January 1st until last night, that's a negative group. Negative 1.4 points per 100 possessions. Okay. In the playoffs, their starters, out of the 16 playoff teams, they were ninth in PL in net rating. I shouldn't say plus minus in net rating here of all starting groups, you know, number one is okc if you're.
- [54:34]
Bill Simmons
Playing, by the way, the shamet. And who's the other guy who had the best net rate?
- [54:40]
Ryan Rosillo
Left, right?
- [54:41]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, right. They had the best plus minus on the team in the last round.
- [54:45]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I mean, Reggie Miller had a few last night. He even wondered out loud on the broadcast. He's like, well, sham it. Take bridges minutes. You're like, no. And by the way, Tibbs, when he tried to figure this out, get back in, he closed with the five guys again. Right. So number one and number two in PL in. In net rating again, for starters, OKCs plus eight. The Pacers are plus five and a half. And the Knicks were on the negative side of things with that starting group. So I think this is a huge win. Celebrated Knicks fans who you've been, what they've done, building towards this, all the transactions. But there is a hard conversation about who they are and what Cat is or isn't. And that's the whole reason why a really front. A really smart front office in Minnesota. And I know some people argue it's more about the contract, but a really smart front office was fine moving him for Randall and Divincenzo.
- [55:35]
Bill Simmons
Can I give you one other thing, Ben?
- [55:38]
Van Lathan
Sure.
- [55:38]
Bill Simmons
Cause I agreed with everything Marcelo just said. And if you're evaluating this Knicks team and you do glass half full and it's like, that was an awesome season. We were one of the four teams left in the playoffs. There's some. We got Mitchell Robinson back with 17 games left, and by the time we got to the third round, it was huge for us. Let's run this back and see what we have on top of everything, Rosello just said so. The Detroit series. They're down eight in the fourth quarter of game one, down 11 with six minutes left in game two, down 10 with nine minutes left in game five, and down 10 in the third quarter. Game six in the Celtics series. They trailed by 15 plus in the first five games in this Pacer series. They were down double figures in four of the six games. This is a team that routinely was behind, trying to claw itself back with weird lineups and whatever. And I think at some point you are who you are with that stuff. If you're like, look at okc, okc, who's fucking awesome and is putting together one of the great seasons in the history of the league. Like, they killed teams at home every time they played at home, basically, except for that first Denver game. They were destroying the other team, Right? And at some point, that's kind of are you are who you are. And I think the reverse with the Knicks is like, if you're five guys together, as good as they are on paper, don't play that well together, and then we get to the playoffs and you're always falling behind. At some point, that has to mean something, right?
- [57:06]
Van Lathan
I mean, yeah, but there's a certain point where anomaly becomes consistency, right? It becomes part of your DNA and part of who you are. Maybe they get comfortable when they're down a little bit. Maybe it's a part of who they are and the makeup of their team. I will say this, though. It was easy for them to come back against the Celtics. The Celtics don't have the heart of a champion. But when you.
- [57:32]
Bill Simmons
Right. When you won the title last year, like literally 12 months ago, a lot.
- [57:37]
Van Lathan
Of injuries, a lot of stuff went their way. A lot of stuff went there.
- [57:41]
Ryan Rosillo
Choose your own adventure of do you want this team's best player to not play?
- [57:47]
Bill Simmons
Do you want Porzingis to turn into a zombie?
- [57:52]
Van Lathan
But I will say something about the game one of this series. Rosillo hit on it and, you know, all the observations he made about how any series goes are obviously correct. I will say something about this game, though. I was watching it at Bill's house. I had stopped and started talking to Ben about Martin Luther King Jr. That's how over the game was going 50s and 60s.
- [58:17]
Ryan Rosillo
The Knicks were listening to you talk to him.
- [58:19]
Van Lathan
Yeah, yeah, like we were. I was. Me and Ben were having a deep conversation about the civil rights movement and all of this stuff. Ben's asking all of the questions. I'm gonna put a koopie on this thing.
- [58:29]
Bill Simmons
He's doing it in history, so.
- [58:30]
Van Lathan
Yeah, no, don't, don't.
- [58:32]
Bill Simmons
No, I'm just saying it wasn't.
- [58:34]
Van Lathan
He's interested, Bill.
- [58:35]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, because you asked him what he's studying, and he was like, I'm doing history. Here's. Here's what we're working on now. And the Knicks were getting whatever was going on.
- [58:43]
Ryan Rosillo
Here's what really happened.
- [58:45]
Van Lathan
Exactly. No, actually, what happened was Ben came down and he went, yo, Unk. How do we subvert the white power system? And I'm like, sit down, young man. Let me tell you about fan.
- [58:55]
Ryan Rosillo
I was just listening to Brand Newbie. First of all, people sleep on that.
- [59:02]
Van Lathan
So look, that's how over the game was. And. And Bill, who was, you know, concentrating on basketball at some point, goes, huh, I don't know. It's seven point game.
- [59:09]
Bill Simmons
I was in a conversation. It went from 119, 105 to 119 right here.
- [59:14]
Ryan Rosillo
Either you're dismissing a complicated history amongst our people or you're not doing your job.
- [59:19]
Bill Simmons
I said, guys, the Knicks are only a seven now. I don't know what's happening.
- [59:24]
Van Lathan
And at a certain point when they lost that game, you know how individual players turn into pumpkins. It felt like the Knicks aura turned into a pumpkin right there. That was like three losses because it was so gut wrenching that it shifted the little team of destiny thing and the momentum from that being a Knicks thing to it being a Pacers thing. And I was like, whoa, wow. This is a game that in the last series, they managed to win. They managed to pull off, and they didn't pull off. They didn't pull this game off here. They will probably lose this series is the way I looked at it after that game was over. And they were playing from way behind for the rest of the time. So I saw it. So that, to me, was the moment that it was like a huge moment in that series. And if they do win that game, I feel like the momentum that they carried on from the Celtics series would have probably made them a much tougher out over the course of the next five or six games.
- [60:25]
Bill Simmons
So that's the biggest case for the under react because this happened two other times, like basically in the last 20 years. And I went to one of the games, which was 2018 finals game one, which was the greatest game I ever saw LeBron play or maybe anyone play. He was just beating the warriors by himself. That was the J.R. smith game. And it goes in overtime and they lose. And I don't know if they were going to beat the warriors in a seven game series, but they weren't going to beat him five out of seven times, right? And you could see LeBron, he was so mad in the last minute of overtime, he almost got in the fight with Curry. He was so mad because he knew it was like, we can't win the series now. We're never winning, we're never beating these teams four times. When we gave one away, the other one we've talked about before was that 2008 Spurs Suns, which was an awesome game. It was the year the Suns got Shaq and when Tim Duncan spurs win in overtime, or maybe it was double overtime and you just felt like, I don't think the Suns can beat that team for four times after blowing that game. So with the Knicks, like if they win game one, maybe that does flip it. And I think that's what you'd have to talk yourself into with that said, if I, if you had, if you told me, is Tibbs coming back? Is Tibbs not coming back? You have to bet on this. I think I would bet on him not coming back and I think I would bet on them finding somebody else. And I don't know who that is, but I think it's like 45%, 55%, it's in that range, but I just feel like somebody's going to get blamed because the deeper issues are how far they're falling behind every game. And it was starting to get a little fluky with the Comebacks. And that's how you have to look at a big picture. There's a Giannis piece we still don't know with Giannis. I still think Milwaukee should keep him. And until Giannis says trade me and I want to go there and that might be Golden State, that might be the Knicks, that might be, who knows, he might be Houston, sounds great. Or he might say, I don't want to go anywhere. But if Yannis says I want to go to the Knicks, there are trades you could figure out with that. So that, that's the only real blow up trade. Smiling because you're acting like you don't.
- [62:40]
Ryan Rosillo
Have four of these written down.
- [62:42]
Bill Simmons
Well, I too. Let me throw this at you. Let me throw this one at you. Towns for Durant. I think Durant has a year left, but you can extend them. The salaries actually work as a one for one. Towns, if you remember, has a whole friendship history with Booker. Like, they've known each other since they were kids. They have the same agent. There was a. I remember we got pitched this at The Ringer in 2019. Townes and Booker and Russell all wanted to do a podcast together, and they all lived in different places and we were like, there's no way, like, now we would have the technology. D' Angelo. Russell, you're a guy.
- [63:25]
Ryan Rosillo
Oh, d' Angelo.
- [63:26]
Bill Simmons
Those three guys are all friends together and same agency, all that stuff. And I'm thinking if they don't have a ton of outs with Durant and if you're the Suns, you don't have a lot of ways to get better. You want, like. And Booker loves Towns, and I think they're still buddies. Is that a way to get out of the Durant business? And then if you're the Knicks, you have this one year run with Durant, you can talk yourself into Mitchell Robinson, 30 minutes a game, you're out of the Town's defense business. You've kind of sold high. You got out of Rando, you got out of Towns. With this big contract coming. Priscilla, is that something that would intrigue you if you're the Knicks?
- [64:04]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I think I'm more into it if I'm on the Knicks side of this thing. And I think it is worth in this kind of like, I think we're all being pretty positive here about the Knicks because I don't really know how you get. I mean, you can be disappointed, but I don't know that you can be mad about anything that's happened this season. This has been a great season. How it played out, Cleveland falling apart, and then the Knicks taking Boston out. And you get to take Boston on top of everything else. You know, literally out.
- [64:29]
Bill Simmons
Like, out maybe for the decade.
- [64:31]
Ryan Rosillo
Right. That'd be long, but we'll see. But I wanted to add in just the Mitchell Robinson part of it. I think I get why Embiid stepped on him last year. Like, maybe Embiid was smarter than everybody else and realizing, like, hey, when this dude is out there, he's a problem. Even though I probably focused on, you know, I just don't like guys that are a zero threat on offense. And then I always thought it was odd with him where he'd be complaining on Instagram, like, every now and then. Van he would have, like, a post where it's Like, I'm not just here to rebound or something. Like, dude, there's a lot.
- [65:04]
Van Lathan
Let me cook.
- [65:05]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I don't like. Like, dudes that cannot. Don't have a kitchen asking to cook at the NBA level. And I saw him, what, in the LA fitness run. He looked really good. I think my dad was playing in that game. So, look, I. I would be more into this thing. I. I think this is really interesting because you're like, all right, Mitchell's there. It's it Durant. I think it's probably a better happy destination because I think I'd always be worried, like, all right, I'm getting Durant, like, what's the expiration date on his happiness here? Because there seems to be a bit of a track record with that. Sure, he's a little bit older the cat, 61 million years from now. I think it's alarming, but it's also, what will it look like in relation to what other salaries are going to be if this cap goes up 10% every single year? So that's another factor with that. If I'm Phoenix, I'm probably going to have to reset this around Booker, if he's cool with going through that, which, again, it seems like all indications that, you know, he's probably a little bit more bought in than you would think from the outside, but that might be something where you're delaying it all around him because you're bringing in a more expensive, younger, flawed player than what should probably be a quicker reset on Phoenix. Like, Phoenix seems like they don't want to get. Get this over with, but it probably means Durant's moving out and then they're rebuilding around this whole thing. I don't know that I'd want to be in the cat business for four years. And look, as an aside, I think.
- [66:26]
Bill Simmons
One case for the cat business, though, quick.
- [66:28]
Ryan Rosillo
I can't stand watching him play a basketball game, and that is unfair to him and his production. I mean, his plus minus, right?
- [66:36]
Bill Simmons
He is the most frustrating guy.
- [66:38]
Ryan Rosillo
I can't fucking stand it. And I know it's better than I'm giving it credit for. So that's a me problem I need.
- [66:46]
Van Lathan
To work on to be a good basketball player. He's.
- [66:48]
Ryan Rosillo
He's really good. Um, he's got some major flaws, but.
- [66:51]
Bill Simmons
He has to be in the top 20 of any. If you're making a basketball list. He's one of the 20 best players in the league and he's made conference finals.
- [66:58]
Ryan Rosillo
I've always.
- [67:00]
Bill Simmons
Conference finals, two years in A row on different teams. So it's not like you can't succeed with them. And that would be the case. Van be like, we get out of this Durant business, he's leaving in a year anyway. Instead of, like, getting this three for one, two for one, we're getting a top 20 guy back from him who our best player really likes, and we could maybe redo this. And he plays center and he rebounds, and he's 24 and 13 every game, and he's had real success.
- [67:25]
Van Lathan
I mean, look it on the. I'm pretty much aligned with Rosilla on the Phoenix part of it. I. I like it a lot less on the New York part of it. It seems like it makes a lot of sense. It seems like it gives them flexibility in the future to build the type of team that they want to eventually get over the hump for the first time since 1972 or whatever it is. I will say this, though, the Tibbs part of it is interesting to me because for as much success as they've had, his style of basketball and his overall being grates on people. It wears on people. He grinds out a fan base, and you normally don't see a fan base that, like, has been in the doldrums and has had the success that the Knicks have had over the past year. This year, like, really want to move on from their coach. It's like he is the ultimate fair weather type of Knicks figure. It's like we're winning games. Oh, Tibbs might be able to stick around. Look at what Tibbs was able to do.
- [68:24]
Bill Simmons
Tibbs drives me crazy.
- [68:25]
Ryan Rosillo
Right.
- [68:25]
Van Lathan
And so. And so now I think that if you ask most Knicks fans, they want a fresh coat of paint on their head coaching position, and I don't. And that's despite all of the success. They don't believe that they can win the way Tibbs does, the things that he does.
- [68:42]
Bill Simmons
Well, I mean, the case against Tibbs is the thing, and we've talked about it on a few pods, even before these playoffs. Why is he doing the minutes this way? What's the point of this? And then you get to the playoffs, and he completely flips how he's doing the minutes, and all of a sudden starts playing guys who hadn't played forever, who are actually pretty good off the bench. And it's like, why not use the regular season to try more different, you know, more lineups, different combinations, get people out there. And then when you get to the playoffs, you're doing it from position to strength, and Instead, it felt like he was throwing shit against the wall. And I think that would be the biggest criticism with them. It's like, yeah, of course this wasn't sustainable. You're trying to win a title with six guys too hard for four straight rounds. So, I don't know, seven guys.
- [69:33]
Ryan Rosillo
I mean, Miles was.
- [69:35]
Bill Simmons
But he kind of lost. It seemed like he lost confidence in Miles as it went along. So Giannis did ask for a Knicks trade. Listen, I was on the trade machine. I put on my trade machine outfit, put on my goggles, overalls, fireproof cap, fireproof overalls, my painter's cap. It's really hard. And it has to be a three teamer. And I think it's gotta be Towns and OG together and Towns and Bridges together. And you need a third team. And I think the third team would have to be the spurs, and the spurs would be getting either OG or Bridges, I think. I think the Bucks end up with Towns and Vesel and multiple first round picks from. From San Antonio. And then the Knicks would get Giannis, but they would have to take a couple contracts. They'd have to take Connaughton and they'd have to take Kuzma. And I don't think this will happen because if I'm Milwaukee, I just wouldn't do it. I'd rather. I'd rather keep Giannis, take him into February. And if we have to trade him, then I just feel like I have more leverage at that point. I wouldn't do it. I would not trade Giannis. I am on the record. The east is weak. I'd keep him. He might be the best player in the whole conference. Keep him, figure it out. Indiana has shown you that maybe if you build the right team around a great player, you can move your timeline faster than you thought. So I would not trade him. Would you? What would. What would happen for you to have to trade him, Marcilla? What would you need just, like, to be overpowered with picks? What would it be before the combine.
- [71:05]
Ryan Rosillo
You and I, Your statement there. I absolute agreement with after the combine. I would just get it over with now, because I think at this point you can get a ton for him. I think if it gets weirder, whether it's before the deadline or it's next summer, I don't know that the value is going to be the same. And we could talk about the timeline of the contract and control, which is also a factor here. But I'd say of all the topics that I discussed with people, more than half of it was what's going to happen with Giannis, and it was kind of all over the place with different theories and different meanings. And here's what the agent's saying, and here's what he's not saying. And all this stuff, I'm like, this is just way too much noise about something that, like, if I'm hoarse, I would just get in front of it and try to load up on. On all this, because you're probably going to be trading them, and it's going to be in a. In a depressed market a year from now or next February. So normally I totally align with you, Bill. If he's happy and wants to come back, that's all I need to know. You're absolutely right about the East. I mean, if Giannis ends up in the west after the lottery and, my God, this East, west thing, you know, this is. We're going to need a summit for this.
- [72:05]
Bill Simmons
If I'm Giannis, I don't want to go to the West.
- [72:07]
Van Lathan
Yeah, I wouldn't want to go to the west either.
- [72:09]
Bill Simmons
You want to do the LeBron? LeBron. LeBron was smart enough in the 2010s to realize, like, better conference. I should stay here.
- [72:18]
Van Lathan
To me, if. You know, obviously, if he wants out, you. So are you. Are you saying that you wouldn't trade him even if he asked out? Are you. Are you. You're saying that you'd hold on to him even if you said, I want to get out of here.
- [72:28]
Bill Simmons
So here. Here's how the league works. If he does ask out, he will tell them, these are the three teams I will go to.
- [72:35]
Van Lathan
Right?
- [72:35]
Bill Simmons
And then you work with the deal with those. They're not going to trade him to somewhere he doesn't want to go. They're like, hey, OKC just blew the Finals. We've traded you to okc. Like, I didn't want to go to okc. They're going to work with him. So if he says, I want to go to Golden State, they'll go down the road and really try to figure out the Golden State thing. And Golden State, you know, literally everybody would be on the table for them. But if he gives them a list of, like, Golden State, Houston, San Antonio, the Knicks, then you just basically pit all those four people against each other and try to figure it out. We saw this with Durant a couple years ago, where Brooklyn could have just traded Durant, but they actually. He's like, I really want to go to Phoenix. And they were like, cool. Their owner's insane. He's going to give us 230 cents in the dollar. So this works out great. Um, I don't know if that's going to be the case for 31 year old Giannis. I, I just, I, I think Golden State, because they have urgency, would overpay and I think the Knicks would do everything possible to make it happen. Because if the Knicks could just end up with Giannis and Brunson and one of the swings, you just figure it out after that, right? Like that's. You have to do that.
- [73:46]
Van Lathan
The title is the thing that makes it interesting with Giannis. To me, he was able to stay there long enough and actually deliver a title for the team that drafted him. Right. And so at this point, giving him the right trade does two things for them. Or like observing his wishes or meeting his wishes does two things. Number one, it loads you back up to maybe go get another player that you can get another title with. I mean, they hadn't won in so long or been basketball relevant in so long. They just owe him a lot of, like, Giannis is the Bucks right now. That's number one. And then number two, you say goodbye to him in a way that's not really contentious and lets him go start over and try to do it with another franchise and you get what you want. Like, you don't drag this out and make this into a situation where he's unhappy or where people are looking at Milwaukee as a place where there's unhappiness in the organization if he asks out. You brought us a title. We had great memories, the whole deal. Goodbye. Let's start over and we have everything that we're going to get back from the trade to build and try to get back there again in four or five years.
- [74:56]
Bill Simmons
He's not asked out, right? So we'll see. All right, we're going to take a break and a lot more stuff to hit. This episode is brought to you by Altra Running. Every pair of Altra shoes has a roomy toe box and zero to low drop which lets your toes spread and keeps your foot in a more natural position. All in the name of comfort and performance. With a variety of styles. There's a shoe for everyone. It's comfort you have to feel to believe. Try Altra for yourself with a free 30 day trial and free shipping at altrarunning.com this episode is brought to you by Degree Original Cool Rush deodorant. Remember last year people got really mad when Degree changed their Cool Rush formula. One dude even started a petition. What was up with that? Guy. Well, guess what? ° listened. They admitted they messed up. They're bringing back the original Cool Rush scent. And thank God. You've got to love when a brand can own its mistakes. And it's in Walmart, Target and other stores right now for under $4. Grab some, find out why it's been the number one men's antiperspirant for the last decade. By the way, you should put that on especially. We're about to hit the summer. It's getting sweaty in the summers. The original degree Cool Rush is back and it smells like victory for all of us. This episode is brought to you by McDonald's. All new McCrispy strips. New McCrispy strips are here. Chicken made for dipping. Tender, juicy white meat Chicken with the golden brown peppery breading. This sounds delicious. It's chicken. So good it deserves its own sauce. That's right, the Creamy Chili McCrispy Strip Dip. It's creamy, savory and sweet with a little heat. But strips work with any of their sauces. I'm actually still a big fan of the buffalo sauce look. New McCrispy strips and dip sounds fantastic. And it's only at McDonald's, so inside. The NBA had its last TNT show today and it's been like almost a year plus funeral for this show on tnt dating back to last year's playoffs when it seemed like it was headed goodbye even though they had ear left. And then we did that whole thing they did documentary. And yet it's just moving to espn. It's not dying. And so on the one hand, I felt sad. As a lifelong basketball fan, TNT was such a huge part dating back to when, you know, 30 years ago, however long it was like, you know, living in Massachusetts, watching that show, watching that show, those games, seeing BARKLEY Join in 2000, you have this whole history. The three guys together were the best. They add Shaq and it goes terrible for a year. Then it eventually becomes good. And they were such an essential part of being basketball fans. And it's still going to continue on ESPN yet.
- [77:55]
Van Lathan
And yet.
- [77:56]
Ryan Rosillo
Just say what you want to say.
- [77:57]
Bill Simmons
I think ESPN is going to fuck the show up. I don't care if I get aggregated. Zach.
- [78:01]
Ryan Rosillo
I didn't understand.
- [78:02]
Bill Simmons
I think they're going to fuck the show up. I don't think they. Unless they completely change how they do commercials, the show is going to be different and people are going to be pissed and Barkley and those guys are going to be pissed and I think it's going to go badly. The only way it doesn't go badly is if they do the commercials and they give them the lengthy segments that you need to have that show work, they're going to have to change how they do it. They just paid so much for the NBA that if they don't do that and they do these same short, terrible segments that you're about to see in the finals where it's like a one and a half minute halftime and it's like a 20 minute pregame. If they do that, they're going to fuck the show up and everybody's going to be mad. So I'm going to start there. Rosilla.
- [78:47]
Ryan Rosillo
They did pay a lot for the NBA. So then to say now all of a sudden you're not going to have all that commercial inventory. Because we've talked about the halftime show, espn with people that we really like that are on the show, maybe others that aren't necessarily our favorites. But I barely catch it. Like that's the 15 minute timer to get something done around the house.
- [79:07]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [79:07]
Ryan Rosillo
For me. And, and if I do catch some of it, I mean, it's just a lock. It's like, oh, the best player on the team went 2 for 10. Okay.
- [79:15]
Bill Simmons
Somebody's got to step up.
- [79:16]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, he's going to get scolded. Like, okay, here we go. It's a 30 second scolding. And then I don't know who okayed. Maybe it was because everybody was trying to be the TNT show, but the analysts talking to break. Nobody's good at it, folks. Nobody's good at it. It's just confusing. You're like, is this, are we in commercial or we doing Carl's Jr here? I don't, I don't understand.
- [79:42]
Bill Simmons
It started with PTI 25 years ago and they're the only ones who are really good at it.
- [79:46]
Ryan Rosillo
Okay, thank you. That's it. Little, little history lesson. I don't, I'll, I'll. I actually think the people that are at the very top with ESPN know.
- [79:57]
Bill Simmons
This and they haven't cared. Whoever's running ESPN has not cared for this entire century about this. This is something they knew is a problem and they just didn't care. They just cashed the checks from the commercials. Yeah, they did not care about the quality of any show they had.
- [80:13]
Ryan Rosillo
All right, but if it's going to be on the model of like, we bring it in but you get to do your thing, then don't you think that's the negotiation? Don't you think that's, that's part of it to even get this.
- [80:25]
Bill Simmons
I think you could say that coming out of the gate. Oh, yeah, yeah. No, it's gonna be the same. And then you get there. And I've literally witnessed this in situations I've been in. Once you're actually there, it's like, oh, yeah, that halftime's coming now. Be a minute and a half because we got this job.
- [80:43]
Ryan Rosillo
I don't think they're gonna do that, man. I don't think they're that. I don't think they're gonna do that.
- [80:47]
Bill Simmons
They've done it this whole century, is my point. So they were gonna have to completely shift what their business model is to accommodate this show. And that's the only way it's gonna work. Otherwise, we're all gonna be mad.
- [80:57]
Van Lathan
But this is like the situation when one of your homeboys starts dating a girl that you actually care about and have respect for. And you warn him, don't fuck this one up like it's your cousin or somebody like that. I know how you are. I know how you treat all the other girls that have been around. But don't fuck this one up. We're paying attention to you now. I think before they could do whatever they wanted to do with these various shows. Because nobody really cared how these shows were treated, you know, like, nobody really cared.
- [81:29]
Bill Simmons
Certainly true.
- [81:30]
Van Lathan
Whether or not you called these shows back, whether or not you took them to cut or TGI Fridays, what kind of hotels you guys were staying in, no one really cared how these shows were treated. Now you're dating a girl from our church. You're dating our sister. You're dating our cousin. You gotta treat her right, or else all eyes are gonna be on her when she starts complaining. We're going to be like, hey, man, this isn't right. Okay? We care. So I don't think that they'll treat Charles Barkley like anything other than the prom queen.
- [82:01]
Bill Simmons
For the three of us, it would be more fun if they mistreated him a little bit. Because he would be the all time. Yeah, I'm going to say my piece about this. I don't like how this is going. Here are my thoughts on multiple platforms.
- [82:17]
Ryan Rosillo
That happened to me once Van and the guy was married. I was like, you can eat all the dicks. This has been a weird thing, though, because there was all this stuff said. And you all know Barkley's my forever number one. There's never that. Never gonna happen.
- [82:35]
Bill Simmons
Greatest guest of all time, too.
- [82:37]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, he's my favorite athlete. There will never be anybody that I'll care more about as an athlete than him. I think it'd be weird at this stage of my life. Like, all right, nope, I'm moving this guy up. I mean, unless I had a kid. But even he'd have a hard time because it's like, I doubt you're going to be as good as Barkley.
- [82:52]
Bill Simmons
This is tough for Chris Paul to hear this, but go ahead.
- [82:54]
Ryan Rosillo
Chris knows.
- [82:55]
Van Lathan
So we talked about it.
- [82:59]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I've told him, yeah, he's fine. He's fine with it. He's a competitive guy, but, yeah, he's it. But Barkley was like, if I might sign, I might not sign. Like, Barkley wasn't dumb about it, but he was doing almost a book tour with his contract negotiations. Remember, like, the live thing was getting involved and, like, that stuff was happening. And that's where some people with their agents, they'll get it out there more and more. And everybody just starts talking about it. Then it's like the Scott Boris thing. You were like, we only had to pay this guy 200 million bucks. What a bargain. And you don't realize, like, it all worked. Ernie had said he'd never work anywhere ever other than tnt. And if the show wasn't on tnt, then he was done. I've been confused about this show so many fucking times. Where I thought last year, I was like, this is it. And then you have to look it.
- [83:45]
Bill Simmons
Up and be like, then there's another year left.
- [83:47]
Ryan Rosillo
There's another year, but the rights. But now if it goes here. And then it's like, no, we're just running it back.
- [83:54]
Bill Simmons
Three of them are like, we haven't signed deals yet. It's like, you don't have a show.
- [83:57]
Van Lathan
And then Barkley saying he'll never do it again anywhere else other than tnt. So, oh, I've made my peace with the fact that it's over. But no, it's not over. I actually didn't know that it was. That they were moving to ESPN as a unit to maybe, like, two, three weeks ago. I literally thought the show was over.
- [84:13]
Ryan Rosillo
Because they keep saying it all the time. I'm totally with you, Van. And on top of everything else. And look, I would laugh about it, but Barkley dumps on ESPN all the time.
- [84:23]
Van Lathan
Kills them.
- [84:24]
Bill Simmons
They did it last night.
- [84:26]
Van Lathan
Kills them. That's the interesting thing. To me, he's been shitting on them so hard for, like, the last 10 years. Tough so now for them to be over there, that's so fucking interesting to me.
- [84:39]
Ryan Rosillo
But it also Speaks to like Jimmy Pitaro running the thing going, hey, this is a great product. This is better than anything we've had. This has been the gold standard. This is what every single new studio show. When you sit in on these meetings and I would be in tests of these shows and like, we want to be more like tnt. We want to be more like inside the NBA. It's like, all right, yeah, well, good luck. How about you let somebody be on these shows more than 12 months and then see what happens.
- [85:03]
Bill Simmons
And granted, how about you give them time to actually interrelate with one another. They've done some of the pregame stuff. They've made longer, but the during the game stuff and then the post game goes right to Van Pelt. So there is no post game show. And that's why you have these shows, because the game just happened. And then we want to hear from the best possible people talking about the game and where they shifted it was they want Sports Center. But the real secret sauce to ESPN is they're trying to drive as much revenue to Sports center as possible. So the faster that they can have that Sports center follow the end of the game, that boosts the rating for that Sports center. And then they can get. That's 365 days a year. They can just get more money for it. That's not going to work with inside the NBA. So I don't know. I guess that Sports center just goes away and they move inside the NBA in there was the only way that would work because that's what the fans are going to want. If they mess with any piece of this, everyone's going to be mad. And that's the part that I can't wait to watch. Like, even like little insignificant stuff. If we feel like it's different anyway, people would be mad. And that's it. I don't know how it plays out.
- [86:09]
Van Lathan
They have to do legit the exact same show. Replica, underdog, everybody, the tweets, the Golf, they have to do the exact same show.
- [86:22]
Bill Simmons
It seems like they're hiring the same crew. Everybody's coming like, and that was a big day, right?
- [86:27]
Van Lathan
So they. If any part of it does. If any part of it. I'm being serious too. If any part of it doesn't move, hashtag, not my inside the NBA, it's going to start. I have a question. How does Stephen A figure into all of this stuff?
- [86:47]
Bill Simmons
They already took care of that with the deal. That deal's for first take and he gets his own stuff and gets to do his Own. I think they knew when they were doing the deal, you're not going to be NBA next year in the same way.
- [87:00]
Van Lathan
But I'm asking, how does this impact his acting?
- [87:05]
Bill Simmons
Well, that. That we're going to have to wait and see.
- [87:08]
Ryan Rosillo
Fair.
- [87:10]
Bill Simmons
What do you think they're going to put him on the show every once in a while?
- [87:13]
Van Lathan
VAN I wonder how Stephen A. Who is Stephen Naismith, who is the basketball authority at espn? I wonder how these guys come in who literally have been blamed and lauded for dictating the course of NBA culture. At first it was like, even when the league was not as fun to watch, these guys would make the league fun, Right? Then it was these guys criticism of the league is part of a larger problem with basketball culture. That's how much influence they have. But it didn't really matter to him then because they were on another network. Right? But having those kind of guys who are as consequential to basketball culture in his same home field, home turf, I just wonder how that's gonna go. I wonder if Stephen, if we. If a month into this thing, we pop up and Stephen A. Smith is sitting up there with them just because he wants to do it.
- [88:13]
Bill Simmons
Well, you know, I mean, there's been so much talked and written about the show, there's almost nothing to add at this point. Everybody understands how consequential the show is. I think the most important thing about it, I was thinking back to game five of the. And I remember writing about this at the time, Game 5 Cav. Celtics 2010, when LeBron, when the series was 22 and the Celtics just kind of killed the Cavs in Game 5 and LeBron was bad and seemed kind of detached and didn't seem like, my life's on the line. I got to take care of it. Just something was off. The whole game. You're watching the mom thing. No, no, no. This was, this was just. He just wasn't good.
- [88:50]
Van Lathan
Oh, yeah.
- [88:51]
Bill Simmons
And it got to inside the NBA after. And Barkley was so disappointed. And how LeBron played. Like, he just started talking about it and he's just like, I just don't understand. I'm just so disappointed that LeBron played like that. That's the kind of stuff that made the show so essential because those guys really care about basketball. There would be moments that happen in these playoff games or the end of a series or whatever. These big picture conversations. It. To me, you know, the, the, the show's funny as shit. It makes me laugh in a way that I don't think any studio show has, but it was the way they could capture the moment sometimes was so important. And that's the thing ESPN can't risk with that show. You have to have these guys after games weighing in in a big picture on stuff that only really Barkley and Kenny, like, that's, that's where the show really matters and they can't fuck with it.
- [89:45]
Ryan Rosillo
What if they replace Kenny with Mina.
- [89:47]
Bill Simmons
Kimes with ESPN people?
- [89:50]
Van Lathan
Okay, all right.
- [89:55]
Ryan Rosillo
Just thinking of crossover appeal, like off the Stephen A point. Like, there's no way Stephen A. Is not sitting at that desk with those guys at some point. There's no way that's not happening.
- [90:05]
Bill Simmons
It'll be in the pregame, not the post game.
- [90:07]
Van Lathan
I'm sorry, I, I, I would, but he will be on there. He will be on there.
- [90:11]
Ryan Rosillo
It's the lock of the year. You can't even bet it. He's going to say, I'm going to go on that and it's going to be really interesting. I'm not saying he's going to now be a part of the show all the time, but like, the dude wants stuff and it's worked out and he's not going to have that show exist without him stopping by for a cameo.
- [90:33]
Bill Simmons
Well, can we all agree that the more ESPN juice they sprinkle on the show, the matter the general public will get?
- [90:40]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, but that'll be the part that's unfair. There'll be no juice. There's no remnants of any juice whatsoever. And like the second something, it doesn't even have to be different that people are going to get on espn. ESPN gets actually too much shit because it's on all of the time and all of us were on pontificating 24 7. Like, imagine if CBS or Fox, who's running NFL also had 20 sort of 247 programming of people talking about the NFL like ESPN exposure. They're, they're just the amount of volume there is for it. Of all of us that were either on it then or the people that are on it now. It just leads like these other channels, like TNT is like, hey, Bones is up next.
- [91:26]
Bill Simmons
You haven't seen this one yet. Somebody's dead.
- [91:29]
Ryan Rosillo
That guy didn't say shit about Tibs in his minutes.
- [91:33]
Bill Simmons
Bones, here comes a new charm.
- [91:35]
Ryan Rosillo
Dustin for Prince.
- [91:38]
Bill Simmons
Charmed. Alyssa Milano's back. Yeah, listen, I think it's going to be discussed all the time next season. It's going to be weirdly one of the biggest subplots of the year. And I think people are going to be really protective of the show that they really like and how it's going to fit into this very strange ecosystem. ESPN's weirder than ever, and it really is the weirdest it's ever been from a show talk standpoint.
- [92:07]
Van Lathan
One of the last major brand connected shows. When I say I'm not talking about, like, you know, YouTube shows or other things like that, I'm talking about brand connected shows. The show is connected directly to a major sporting brand. Right. A major sporting league that is completely un PC. Like, doesn't even try. Like completely un PC, not PC at all. Like, whatever comes out, we're going to talk about it. They're going to have. They don't try at all. Whereas ESPN has tried very much to walk the line and be in the game of not offending people or even dialing back some of the political rhetoric of the past couple of years to not offend people. But when Barkley talks about San Antonio, he talks about the big old women in San Antonio. He's going back to the jokes. And so, like, all of that stuff, whether or not that melds with the culture at espn, which is a lot more buttoned up than not sure there's.
- [93:15]
Bill Simmons
Much culture left anymore, but, well, whatever.
- [93:18]
Van Lathan
The absence of culture then. So they gotta be able to do their exact same thing. And now, you know, if anybody has complaints, they're going to have them with Disney.
- [93:26]
Ryan Rosillo
Okay. But we're ignoring a piece of evidence here that tells us that they're going to leave these guys alone. Like the Bill and myself, ESPN experience. Again, they're different experiences because of who we were with those companies at the time. But the people that we were dealing with. What McAfee is allowed to do on that show is the antithesis of what all of the people wanted to be on the air when we worked there. Okay.
- [93:49]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [93:49]
Ryan Rosillo
So he has freedom of movement with the licensing part of it. So that should be the model. That should be.
- [93:55]
Bill Simmons
So basically, if you license it, you turn it over. Here's the time slot after the game for an hour. We're not touching it.
- [94:01]
Ryan Rosillo
It. I also think, like, Jimmy and Burke, underneath Jimmy are smart guys. I do. I. I really, I know we take our bill and I enjoy sometimes going down memory lane and getting pissed about all this stuff. But, like, the place at the top feels much more streamlined now. And I just can't fathom guys that have really good track records would come in and then go, let's. I'm not, I'm not guaranteeing, like it's it's going to be word for word, note for note, all the same stuff. But I don't know why those. Like, if you were telling me there were other people in the past that would still be in charge, Other people. You're like, how the is this guy in charge? How is this guy making this decision? Oh, this guy got replaced six months later, and now it's a new Game of Thrones deal. And now this person, because they were in this person's wedding or something else happened here, you're like, this person's making decisions. You're like, what the is going on here? You're like, oh, you have to meet with this person. Who's that? Your new boss. You're like, what? You know, I mean, so that doesn't feel like the structure anymore.
- [94:56]
Bill Simmons
That's a good summary. Yeah.
- [94:59]
Ryan Rosillo
Was I wrong about any of that?
- [95:00]
Bill Simmons
That was, that was a good summary. No, it's. Listen, they're. They're outsourcing something in a way that we've only seen them do with McAfee. But McAfee's on in the middle of the day.
- [95:11]
Van Lathan
A little different.
- [95:12]
Bill Simmons
It's a little different than the spotlight you have before and after NBA games when you're paying 20 million plus for 20, however. 20 billion, whatever it was, man. All right, it's a TBD. I guess it's a wait and see van. What else do you care about? Should I lay out and have you guys do college football for 10 minutes?
- [95:33]
Van Lathan
I mean, you could.
- [95:35]
Bill Simmons
This episode is brought to you by Dangerous Animals. From the producers of Long Legs comes a new species of serial killer. Tucker, a shark obsessed boat captain, abducts young tourists to feed the ocean predators below. But when rebellious surfer Zephyr finds herself in Tucker's jaws, he may have bitten off more than he can swallow. Hassie Harrison, Josh Houston and Jai Courtney star in Dangerous Animals. Only in theaters June 6th. Get tickets now at DangerousAnimals movie. This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Men face a lot of pressure to keep it all together. But guys, it's okay to struggle. What's more important is getting the help you need. Talk to someone like a therapist from BetterHelp. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Talk it out with BetterHelp. Our listeners get 10% off their first month@betterhelp.com billsimmons that's betterhelp.com billsimmons college football. Cause we're heading into the Summer. And then all of a sudden college football will be starting in like mid August. And we'll be like, wait, what the college football started? Give us the three things you're most excited about this year.
- [96:47]
Van Lathan
Year, man, these young quarterbacks. So you have a couple of guys that are like. You have some young guys that are like really on the precipice of stardom. DJ Lagway at Florida, Lenore Sillers at South Carolina. And then you have some guys in new spots, John Mateer at Oklahoma, that are like really going to be interesting to watch, to see how things go. Right. Arch Manning, young quarterback who has a small sample size, but the entire college football world, I would say a large portion of the sports world is going to be watching to see how Arch Manning plays. Obviously you have K. Clubnick at Clemson, Drew Allar at Penn State. Then you have Nussmeier, Garrett Nussmeier at lsu. LSU has a complete. I think he's the number one pick, reformed roster. And so all of these guys that are in these different spots first getting their chance. Also at Alabama. Is Alabama running out? What's going on at Alabama? I haven't. Are they running out the five star that they had that was behind. I can't remember the kid's name now.
- [98:00]
Ryan Rosillo
I was watching Pacer's Thunder from March this morning, so this isn't.
- [98:07]
Bill Simmons
You weren't really doing that, were you?
- [98:09]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, Ty Simpson, I have the assignments that if you want, but Pacers Thunder.
- [98:15]
Bill Simmons
Was it a good game?
- [98:17]
Ryan Rosillo
No, they smoked him. I don't know if you guys want this, but like The Pacers were 35 and 28 on March 10th. Now granted, you know, we know that Nemhardt missed time. Niecemith missed two months. As you mentioned in the beginning. They started 9 and 14, 10 and 15. They went 15 and 4. They had a loss at Milwaukee, the one point loss to the Lakers on the tip and by LeBron they had. They had an off day before they lost by 21 at Oklahoma City. So they went on this great OKC didn't have chat defensive assignments. Halliburton had Dort on him, Niecemith had Wallace on him. Hartenstein played Turner, obviously SGA played N. Smith and Jalen Williams played Pascal. So there you go. We'll see. We'll see what happens. Yeah, I'm kind of out of season with all this stuff, Van, but I'm. I'm bigger picture. I'm doing a big Tuesday college football thing. Bruce Feldman's coming on this every year. Every year now a sport I love disgusts me far more than any other sport. Like this sport is.
- [99:17]
Bill Simmons
It rotates. You don't ever know what the sport's going to be.
- [99:20]
Ryan Rosillo
No, it's just the new thing where we shouldn't have had 12 teams. Now we're going to have 16 and the SEC and the Big Ten. I don't understand how the Big Ten all of a sudden, after two national championships is like, yeah, we're awesome too now. Because the depth of the conference is not the same as the sec. But that's not really the point because I'm mad at both the SEC and the Big Ten for doing this. All right, so you, you ransacked everybody else's conferences. Now you're pissed about how deep your conferences are, and now you want four auto bids a piece. So it's 16, you guys get eight, and then I don't. Look, I haven't read through all the different proposals, but it's just sucks that this sport has no, like, David. They need a David Stern who would just go, yeah, actually, we're not doing any of those things. And I don't mean to sound like a guy who's, you know, at a neighborhood meeting here at an HOA thing, but for the greater good. And this sport is not about the greater good. And it's gross that Stanford plays awake in an ACC game. I mean, you've heard all these rants for me before, but all the latest news cycle stuff with college football, it actually gets in the way of my excited excitement for Nussmeier. Dialing it up, taking chances on third and 12.
- [100:29]
Van Lathan
Slinger.
- [100:30]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, third and 12. Fuck it. We'll probably be out here for fourth and seven.
- [100:38]
Van Lathan
I'll be honest with you. I don't pay attention to it anymore.
- [100:40]
Ryan Rosillo
There you go.
- [100:41]
Van Lathan
And. And the reason why I don't is because the core is this. I want to be able to enjoy LSU versus Mississippi State on a random Saturday. Anybody can enjoy LSU Alabama. Anybody can enjoy LSU Florida. Anybody can enjoy LSU Texas. I want to enjoy LSU State. I want to enjoy LSU out of conference, like lower FCS teams. I want to enjoy college football in its essence. And the more you pay attention to everything that's happening in and around the sport, you just can't because it's not the same.
- [101:22]
Bill Simmons
So you, like, block it out and compartmentalize it.
- [101:25]
Van Lathan
Sounds like I block it out and compartmentalize it. I pay attention to programs, players recruiting and coach movement because the business part of it is such a fucking bummer right now. Every once in a While to Ryan's point, I'll think about the fact that the PAC12 doesn't exist or that SC has to play Minnesota in conference, and I'll be like, yo, what the fuck are we doing? Like, beyond even a cultural standpoint from what college football is and used to be. That doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense to travel across the country and play somebody and then have Penn State come to the Coliseum and walk in quicksand for the first half of the game because the guys are traveling too far, then kick ass in the. It doesn't make any sense.
- [102:21]
Bill Simmons
Well, you know, can I piggyback on that?
- [102:24]
Van Lathan
Sure.
- [102:25]
Bill Simmons
Because having some parent people in my life who have kids who compete college level and how these conferences have screwed up even beyond football. Like, even if your kid's playing girls soccer, running cross country, and it's like, yeah, my kid goes to Berkeley, we have a meet at Penn State this weekend. It's like, what? How is this college sp the whole point of the conferences where you're putting teams near each other so that the kids didn't have to travel that far so that they could continue to do schoolwork and they could play sports, but it wouldn't dominate their entire life. We lost that narrative, what, 20, 25 years ago once the conferences started getting weird.
- [103:03]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, yeah.
- [103:04]
Bill Simmons
Now it's insane.
- [103:05]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. I mean, I was watching Carter Bryant, the Arizona kid for the draft last night, and it was the Arizona Oregon game, and I was like, oh, yeah, good old. And I even stopped myself. Like, not a good old pack 10, pack 12 game. This is a big 10, big 12 game.
- [103:20]
Van Lathan
Yeah.
- [103:20]
Ryan Rosillo
This is fucking stupid.
- [103:21]
Bill Simmons
But this started with the Big east when the biggie started to get a little weird and they ACC that first time when they started jumping back and forth and we're like, wait, well, you.
- [103:30]
Ryan Rosillo
Could go back to the Big Eight. You could talk about, yeah, you know, the Big Eight part of it was. Was a disruption, but at least all of it still made geographical sense. And the Big east, there was a couple different things that happened. They screwed themselves. ESPN offered them a really, like, straightforward deal for their college football TV rights and they pushed back. And it was like, well, cool. You morons are like fifth on the priority list.
- [103:51]
Bill Simmons
It was one of the big forks on the roads of this century for sports.
- [103:55]
Ryan Rosillo
Right?
- [103:55]
Bill Simmons
And then they got competitive about, oh, you're not going to do this. Watch this. And they beef up ACC and the rest is history.
- [104:01]
Van Lathan
It's just also, it's kind of like a larger And I don't mean to get too into the weeds on it, but it's a larger conversation about, like moving from a society where culture dictated football into a society where money dictates football. Right. So when culture dictates football, you have different areas of the country that play football in different ways because of the caliber of player and the style of play that comes from there. Right. You had Pac 12, pretty boy football, you had bruising down south, SEC football with speed and power. Kind of the same thing. Grinders playing in the cold weather up there in the Big ten. And these teams would meet each other and it would really be a clash of those different places. But there was dictated by the kind of talent you could get from where you were and the kind of stuff, schemes and all kinds of identities.
- [104:59]
Ryan Rosillo
That's what I miss. And I've already done this too many times. But for Bill's audience, when you threw on a game, you knew what it was supposed to look like. And that to me was fun. You know, I don't want to drive. I was almost in Nebraska the other day. You know what it looked like? Nebraska. Yeah, I liked that. I turned around, but I like Tommy Frazier.
- [105:24]
Bill Simmons
I would add these two wrinkles. Uh oh, they'll never make me the czar of sports. I pushed for the job forever. My best chance was probably the Obama administration because he actually listened to the content. He didn't care.
- [105:36]
Ryan Rosillo
Thankfully for him, we have a college football playoff.
- [105:40]
Bill Simmons
Thankfully for him. I don't think people should be. I think if you're out of school, you have to be there for at least two years. Should be. Would be one rule I would make. So you can still have the transfers, you can still have that stuff. Coaches or players, it's two years. If you want transfer, you can do it after two, you can keep your eligibility, but you still have to make a two year commitment to whatever school. That would be the first thing. The second thing would be, let's can we fix the conferences somehow?
- [106:08]
Ryan Rosillo
I don't know what's gonna happen.
- [106:11]
Bill Simmons
Like what you mentioned earlier about if there was a czar or whatever that'd be. The first thing they did was like, all right, guys, this is, this is stupid. Let's start. Let's press the reset button and just start this over. Maybe the teams on the west coast should try to play as many of the west coast teams as possible.
- [106:28]
Van Lathan
That's a conversation with Fox and espn. That's really who you're having a conversation with. You're having a conversation with Fox and ESPN or Amazon or Apple or whomever else is making the money go through the roof to align the super conferences and make it worth their while to do it the way that they're doing it right now. That's not a conversation.
- [106:47]
Bill Simmons
So we're heading towards. We're just heading toward a 30 team college football league basically that maybe two exists outside of NCAA. Maybe two that are 20 giant conferences.
- [106:58]
Ryan Rosillo
And that's why they're already doing this stuff to be like. And we already get all of these automatic bids. And you just go like, part of me understands the stronger conference. Like some of these schedules, you look at them going, you've gotta be kidding me.
- [107:09]
Van Lathan
Florida, how do you.
- [107:10]
Ryan Rosillo
How do you get through this? With three losses and you could be considered a top 10 team in the country. But you know, all the conference. The conference stuff on the realignment part of it, as Indiana fans hate me because I was like you. You didn't play anybody. And you also. Of the 16 teams, the Big Ten, I think they played one of the top seven. And they of course were one of the top seven. And then you got poo pooed the.
- [107:38]
Bill Simmons
Pacers for like a month and a half. Yeah, fans like that, you really need to win them back. Maybe Hoosiers rewatch was again. Yeah, some fever stuff. Maybe for you.
- [107:48]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, I'm an Angel Reese guy, so.
- [107:50]
Van Lathan
That'S what I'm talking about.
- [107:52]
Ryan Rosillo
Ryan knows what's up. Made a lot of progress.
- [107:55]
Van Lathan
There you go. That's what I'm talking about. We still working the game out. We still getting our left hand right. We gonna make them layups, but you'll be better.
- [108:06]
Ryan Rosillo
Great rebounder.
- [108:07]
Bill Simmons
Great rebounder. Mitchell Robinson, esque. Did you guys see that Cooper Flag was estimated to make $28 million in nil last year.
- [108:16]
Ryan Rosillo
I never believe any of that stuff. That's right up there with the videos. I don't believe videos anymore. And I don't believe nil. That's not.
- [108:24]
Bill Simmons
Or the contracts for podcasts.
- [108:28]
Van Lathan
Oh, those are.
- [108:29]
Bill Simmons
I believe some of those signed $125 million deal. Okay, this seems pointed. No, it's just I don't just people seem to report some number that an agent gave them. Like, all right, I'll put that in the newspaper. It sounds good. The 28 million for flag seemed high, right? I mean, I have money like Wyoming estate.
- [108:57]
Van Lathan
Well, I mean, I think part of that is just, you know, he wants to be an NBA player. You know what I mean?
- [109:01]
Bill Simmons
But he could have leveraged. He could have done the Eli thing. I Still think that would have been so much fun if he was like, eh, I don't really love Dallas.
- [109:10]
Van Lathan
These are the nil conversations that I'm having. Number one, I'm hearing that there are actually high school kids that have committed to various schools that are being paid 10, $20,000 a month while they're in high school for them to keep their commitment. That's bananas. That's bonkers. That's crazy. That is because, you know, now the commitments are worth even less than they used to be because the money talks even more than your relationship with your position coach or whatever. The Cooper flag thing. He was only there one year. And so him making 30 million and out of. From nil. Is this from his senior year on or one year at Duke? That seems like too much money. I know he's.
- [109:58]
Bill Simmons
But it was the reported number.
- [110:01]
Ryan Rosillo
What was it baked into the number? I didn't see the piece, so I. 28 seems like a lot.
- [110:06]
Bill Simmons
28 seems high. I would have guessed, like, did he.
- [110:09]
Ryan Rosillo
Have part of the TV rights in there?
- [110:12]
Bill Simmons
I don't know. I don't know where he's getting it from. Yeah, but you think, like, if, if, if that was the kind of money floating around. Caitlyn, if she had stayed for one more Iowa year, I can't even imagine what she would have been wearing.
- [110:25]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, see, now we're, now we're talking because what is she like, at $87,000 or something? But the, and this is, this is the part of the WNBA conversation where I would stick up for their salary plight is that it's like, well, you make all this money off of the court. It's like, okay, but what the fuck? Like, so you're admitting, like, hey, we're not going to pay you anything an hour, but you're going to make a lot of tips, right?
- [110:50]
Bill Simmons
Well, they have less games and they're on the old contract and they have the new contract they're negotiating. But the league, like, the ratings for the league are like, stunning. And you could argue, like, Chalamet was there in the Knicks side and Caitlin Clark was there on the, on the Indiana side. It's like, I don't know. Not, not, not far off from a star power standpoint. She's a massive star.
- [111:14]
Van Lathan
I think that she's a bigger star than him.
- [111:16]
Bill Simmons
You can make the argument, I don't know. Chalamet, he's had some $250 million debuts. It's a good argument.
- [111:26]
Van Lathan
So Dune debuts. So he has Dune and he has Willy Wonka. You know, I'm in on Shadow Man. I don't want people to think that I'm not in on Chatelaine. I'm in on Chalamet. Definitely in. Right. He's a huge star. But I would say that, like, there is a little bit of wish casting that's going away, that's going on with, like, how big of a star Timothee Chalamet is right now. Dune, Gigantic. Two gigantic movies. But also Dune is like this huge science fiction ip. Willy Wonka is this huge science fiction ip. So I don't know. He's a giant.
- [111:59]
Bill Simmons
Can I give you a counter? Can he be a counter? He's hit the point that is the hardest point to get to, where if he has a movie coming out, there's just general awareness that he has a movie coming out. And the last person who hit that point was Leo, where it's like, if Leo is making a movie, it's like, oh, Leo's making a movie. I'll probably go see that. I think Tarantino is like that as a director. I think Fincher has hit that point. I think Christopher Nolan has at that point. It's very pta. But at the same time, his movies haven't made Giant money the way some of these other ones have. That's the thing critically, is for the artists, for the screenwriters out there. But I think Leo is the last one before Chalamet, where it's like, if you see an ad for a new Chalamet movie, you're like, oh, new Chalamet movie. The question for me is, did MBJ get there after Sinners could. Or maybe he needs one more after Sinners to get that. But I don't know if he's there yet or not. But I think Chalamet is.
- [113:03]
Van Lathan
I think Coogler's definitely there.
- [113:05]
Bill Simmons
I think Coogler is definitely there.
- [113:07]
Van Lathan
Coogler's definitely there. I think Mike is right there as well. Sinners is one of the most successful movie projects, maybe the most successful movie project of. Of this, this century. To me. Just because it's a completely original story.
- [113:28]
Bill Simmons
Yes.
- [113:29]
Van Lathan
That is, like, incredibly ambitious. Like, incredibly ambitious. All black cast in the south. Like, not a four quadrant set in the 1930s. Horror, like a horror set in the 1930s. All Black cast, high budget, and it does what it does. It's really remarkable, to be honest with you, as a filmmaking experiment. What the movie was able to do, it's cemented.
- [113:56]
Bill Simmons
Coogler, he can do whatever he wants now. I told Van when we left the Theater. We saw it the day before the movie came out, right? We saw it like that Thursday at 4:00 clock.
- [114:06]
Van Lathan
Thursday, yeah, it was Thursday, 4:00 clock.
- [114:08]
Bill Simmons
I told Van $200 million at least.
- [114:11]
Van Lathan
Yeah, very proud of it.
- [114:14]
Bill Simmons
Was one of my good predictions, right? I've had some bad ones. Including OKC versus Boston for the finals was one of mine. I stuck with that one all year.
- [114:22]
Van Lathan
Bill told me we were walking out of the theater and Bill told me, he goes, listen, if the black community just shows up like they should for this movie, I'm telling you, the sky is the limit.
- [114:32]
Bill Simmons
Did not say that.
- [114:33]
Van Lathan
He goes, cause I can tell you that I felt it. I felt it deep in my soul. If the black community can just show up for this movie like they should, where the sky's the limit.
- [114:43]
Bill Simmons
We agreed it was going to make a ton of money.
- [114:45]
Ryan Rosillo
It's like Todd Chrisley getting out of.
- [114:46]
Bill Simmons
Jail and then is he out?
- [114:50]
Van Lathan
He's one of the great civil rights leaders of our times. Did you see what he said, Bill? Wait, Todd, Chris gets out of jail and he's in his first and you know, there's a whole thing. Trump pardoned him, so he doesn't want to do that. He wants to come back out and still be cool. He goes on a whole soliloquy about how bad black men are treated in jail and how great he was treated while he was in prison. Todd, Todd, please clip that show. Like Todd, Todd was showing up telling you.
- [115:22]
Ryan Rosillo
He's like, man. He goes, I was allowed to watch tv.
- [115:31]
Bill Simmons
All right, I'm going to wrap up because it's been almost two hours. Well, unless you guys have anything else. Dan, we have seven minutes left in the pot. If you have one more topic, give it to us.
- [115:42]
Van Lathan
No, that's it.
- [115:44]
Bill Simmons
You're tapped out.
- [115:45]
Ryan Rosillo
I want to go to the gym. Let's be done.
- [115:47]
Bill Simmons
Priscilla wants to go to the gym. We don't need to preview the OKC Indiana series. OKC is a minus 750 favorite and we can do that on our next.
- [115:57]
Ryan Rosillo
I'm going to preview a Tuesday. I'm going to watch the March game again. I like what you did. I like what you did. You're so happy about the Pacers. You didn't want to talk about the finals.
- [116:09]
Bill Simmons
Minus 7:50 is a massive line for the finals. And I don't going back to. You'd have to go back to Lakers Nets, I think to see probably a more one sided matchup. Maybe the second Lakers Nets one where it's just like I Can't even try to make a case here.
- [116:24]
Van Lathan
I'm going to ask one question before we go from a franchise standpoint. What kind of trouble would OKC be in if they lost the Finals here? It seems like there's not a ton of pressure on them. Obviously it's their first time getting there. They've built pretty progressively over the last couple of years to get here and have this. But they are such a well put together team, such a dominant team in so many different ways and a lot of young players, a lot of flexibility right now with what they're paying people on the roster. But if they don't win. Now, if they don't win, you could argue that they need to win this finals to start the run that people think they're going to have.
- [117:13]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I don't think they're that worried about it, but I think what's at stake for them is almost like something bigger than the title. Like if they swept Indiana and they finish, they'd be 84 and 18, I think. Priscilla. And that just puts them in one of the all time great seasons anyone's ever had. They would always have to be mentioned, which is slightly different stakes. Right. I do think Indiana will try to muck it up against them, make it chaotic and try to do what they did with, with the. With the Knicks and just push the pace. Play with as much pace as possible and just try to make it attract me. But man.
- [117:49]
Ryan Rosillo
So the opposite of mucking it up?
- [117:51]
Bill Simmons
Well, mucking it up and just making it chaotic and weird the whole time. I. You're right. Bucking it up is the wrong way. Making it chaotic, whatever that verb is.
- [117:59]
Ryan Rosillo
I had an idea in my head of what? Mucking so un.
- [118:03]
Bill Simmons
What? And just chaotic ending it up. Is that a verb?
- [118:07]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I understand what you're saying. I'm being a little unfair here.
- [118:10]
Bill Simmons
They just want to. They have to do this and make OKC try to play with them. And that's Indiana's superpower, at least so far. Play our pace, you're going to do what we want to do. Do this with us. And then they rope you into it and you're like, this is fun. I love doing this. And all of a sudden you're down game one. But I don't think that's going to work this.
- [118:30]
Ryan Rosillo
So to put in perspective, minus 750, it was minus 375 against Minnesota and I was like, man, that's. That's pretty aggressive there because I thought Minnesota would be more competitive in that series. They were not. But I didn't think they were going to win the series. This is I'm looking at it right now. You would remember this better than I would, Bill, but Were the Lakers minus 2000 against the Sixers in 2001?
- [118:53]
Bill Simmons
It was unbetable. But I don't remember what the exact in 2000. Yeah, I don't remember what the exact one because then the Sixers won Game one and OT and it was like.
- [119:02]
Ryan Rosillo
Oh yeah, team, team versus me.
- [119:07]
Bill Simmons
No, I think if you're looking at if you're looking at OKC bets, so them to sweep the series is plus 330 and them to win in five is plus 220. They're down to minus 700 on FanDuel now. But I think House is like already on record as like he's betting the sweep and he thinks Indiana will not win a game that price is great and can go against it in game three, all that, that stuff. I think Indiana could win a game though, you know, like, like OKC got killed by Minnesota in Game three. Like they, they could young teams, especially in the road. I think they bet they were a little different home versus road. I think Indiana could catch them in.
- [119:50]
Ryan Rosillo
One of those games.
- [119:51]
Bill Simmons
But we'll see. All right, Rosillo sad. Everyone at the gym. Van, a pleasure as always. Thanks to Gahao and Eduardo as well for producing this and we'll see you next time. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Brasilo and Van, thanks to Gahal and Eduardo as well. Don't forget you can find all the clips and videos from this podcast on The Bill Simmons YouTube channel, Prestige TV, the Better Sister that's happening this week. I'm going to be on that one. And then rewatchables out for justice with Steven Seagal. And I will be back on this feedback on Tuesday. See you then. Must be 21 plus in President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + in President D.C. gambling problem. Call 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplianma.org or call 800-327-550 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPENOT.