Indy Steals Game 1 in OKC … WTF Happened? | With Zach Lowe

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Bill Simmons Podcast – "Indy Steals Game 1 in OKC … WTF Happened? | With Zach Lowe"

Release Date: June 6, 2025
Host: Bill Simmons
Guest: Zach Lowe
Description: In this episode, Bill Simmons and Zach Lowe dive deep into the surprising outcome of Game 1 in the 2025 NBA Finals between the Oklahoma City Thunder (OKC) and the Indiana Pacers. They analyze the strategies, player performances, pivotal moments, and potential implications for the rest of the series. Additionally, the conversation touches on broader NBA topics, including coaching changes and team dynamics.

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1. Introduction and Context [00:00 - 06:13]

Bill Simmons opens the episode with a brief overview of the unexpected result in Game 1 of the NBA Finals, where the Indiana Pacers overcame the odds to defeat OKC, who were favored by nine and a half points on FanDuel. He sets the stage for a detailed analysis with Zach Lowe, highlighting their live-streamed discussion that occurred eight minutes post-game.

Notable Quote:

• Bill Simmons: "We were assuming it would be an OKC 20 point easy win... And then Indiana was like, 'we're Michael Myers. You thought we were dead.'" ([03:27])

2. Detailed Game Analysis [06:14 - 23:43]

a. Team Performance and Turnovers

Bill and Zach discuss the staggering number of turnovers by OKC, totaling 24, which significantly impacted the game's outcome. They express disbelief that despite such a high turnover rate, Indiana managed to secure the win.

Notable Quote:

• Zach Lowe: "This is the strangest game I've ever watched, I think start to finish and then the finish puts it over the top." ([04:03])

b. Key Players and Clutch Moments

The conversation highlights specific player performances, particularly Halliburton's legendary clutch shots despite a subpar game overall. They also commend Nemard's defensive prowess against Shay.

Notable Quotes:

• Bill Simmons: "They were doing one-on-one stuff. I didn't feel like they were running enough." ([05:11])
• Zach Lowe: "I got a text from an assistant coach who was like, 'is he going to shoot 40 times in this game?'" ([19:37])

c. Coaching Decisions and Strategies

The duo critiques OKC's coaching adjustments, questioning the rationale behind switching to a small-ball lineup despite their offensive efficiency. They ponder the implications of these decisions on rebounding and overall team dynamics.

Notable Quote:

• Bill Simmons: "Why are OKC changing what they're doing so much in that game? I don't really fully understand it." ([18:12])

3. Defensive Strategies and Offensive Flow [23:44 - 40:29]

a. Indiana's Transition Defense

Zach praises the Pacers' transition defense, noting their ability to limit OKC's fast-break opportunities despite a high number of turnovers.

Notable Quote:

• Zach Lowe: "A lot of these are big transitions, big defensive plays. They're limiting OKC's efficiency on the break." ([06:14])

b. Offensive Inefficiencies

They discuss OKC's offensive hesitations and lack of flow, comparing it unfavorably to their usual high-paced style. The conversation delves into specific plays that highlighted these inefficiencies.

Notable Quote:

• Zach Lowe: "I didn't like the feel of Oklahoma City's offense almost the entire game." ([06:11])

4. Player Highlights and MVP Discussion [40:30 - 59:54]

a. MVP Candidates

Bill and Zach debate the MVP of Game 1, considering players like Nemard, Siakam, and Halliburton. They evaluate their contributions, impact on the game, and overall performance.

Notable Quote:

• Zach Lowe: "I think the sneaky MVP of the game for Indiana is Siakam... consistent positive force." ([20:20])

b. Player Performances

They analyze standout performances, including Lou Dort’s defensive plays and three-point shooting, and discuss how these influenced the game's outcome.

Notable Quote:

• Bill Simmons: "Lou Dort is going to just go crazy for threes." ([37:43])

5. Coaching and Team Dynamics [59:55 - 70:19]

a. Coaching Adjustments

The discussion shifts to coaching strategies beyond Game 1, specifically addressing the Indiana Pacers' Rick Carlisle and his ability to make effective in-game adjustments.

Notable Quote:

• Zach Lowe: "Carlisle pushes all the right buttons all the time." ([27:40])

b. Knicks Coaching Changes

Bill brings up the New York Knicks' coaching situation, exploring the potential candidates and the rumors surrounding dysfunctional team dynamics.

Notable Quote:

• Bill Simmons: "It feels like a little Game of Thrones over there." ([47:15])

c. Possible Future Scenarios

They speculate on possible outcomes for the series, the necessity of OKC making strategic adjustments, and the likelihood of Indiana maintaining their momentum.

Notable Quote:

• Bill Simmons: "What a crazy finals team that was." ([41:27])

6. Broader NBA Topics [70:20 - 76:00]

a. Trade Speculations

The hosts briefly touch on potential trades and team strategies beyond the Finals, including discussions about the Utah Jazz and Toronto Raptors.

Notable Quote:

• Bill Simmons: "If I'm Utah, I get two swings at that apple... if I'm Philly, it's different." ([64:10])

b. The Role of Legends and Fan Engagement

They consider the impact of legendary players making appearances during crucial Finals games to boost team morale and fan engagement.

Notable Quote:

• Bill Simmons: "If I'm the Pacers and it's one-one heading into game three, I'm trotting out every Indiana legend I have for game three." ([69:35])

7. Conclusion and Future Episodes [76:01 - End]

Bill wraps up the episode by thanking contributors and previewing upcoming live discussions, including post-Game 2 analysis and a follow-up podcast in Indianapolis.

Notable Quote:

• Bill Simmons: "We'll see you next time." ([70:48])

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Key Insights and Conclusions:

1. Indiana Pacers' Resilience: The Pacers demonstrated exceptional resilience and clutch performance, particularly in their defensive strategies and key player contributions, to overcome a favored OKC team.

2. OKC's Strategic Missteps: Oklahoma City Thunder's numerous turnovers and ineffective offensive adjustments, especially their switch to a small-ball lineup, were critical factors in their unexpected loss.

3. Coaching Impact: Rick Carlisle's ability to make timely adjustments was pivotal for Indiana, while OKC's coaching decisions remain under scrutiny for their lack of effectiveness in securing the game.

4. Future Series Outlook: The hosts express skepticism about OKC's path to victory in the series, emphasizing the need for OKC to address their turnovers and offensive stagnation in upcoming games.

5. Broader NBA Dynamics: The conversation extends to coaching changes in other teams, trade speculations, and the potential influence of legendary players in high-stakes games, highlighting the interconnected nature of NBA strategies and team performances.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Bill Simmons: "This might be the strangest game I've ever watched, I think start to finish and then the finish puts it over the top." ([04:03])

• Zach Lowe: "I can't wait to watch the game again, because I need to analyze what happened." ([06:01])

• Bill Simmons: "19 turnovers and Lou Dorritt had five threes... I would have assumed OKC won by 25." ([05:11])

• Zach Lowe: "I'm very interested to see what they do because I would have started the double big lineup." ([18:39])

• Bill Simmons: "If I'm Utah, I get two swings at that apple... but if I'm Philly, it's different." ([64:10])

• Zach Lowe: "If it's Scotty Barnes and some picks for Giannis, that would start to be somewhat interesting to me." ([65:38])

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This episode offers an in-depth analysis of a pivotal Finals game, providing listeners with nuanced insights into team strategies, player performances, and the broader implications for the NBA landscape. Bill Simmons and Zach Lowe deliver a comprehensive breakdown that not only recaps the game's events but also delves into the tactical decisions that shaped the outcome.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever finish a movie and the next thing you know you're totally obsessed. Like I'm talking about ordering a book about 70s film lighting or buying the soundtrack on vinyl. Kind of obsessed. Whatever it is, prime helps you get more out of whatever passions you're into or getting into. Head to Amazon.com prime and follow your obsession wherever it goes. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by by the Ringer Podcast Network, where I popped on the Prestige TV podcast this week. We talked about the Better Sister. Did a rewatchables on Monday. It was a really good one. We did out for justice, the Steven Skull classic. I had a great time. I think I'm turning this into New York Month on the rewatchables because we're doing Working Girl on Monday, which is a great movie from the 80s. Harrison Ford's in it. Melanie Griffith, Sigourney Weaver. It's a really, really, really, really good New York movie and just a good movie in general. It's dated in all the right ways. So that's coming Monday, so you have the weekend to watch it. I think it's on Hulu or Paramount. It's on one of those and it's, it's all over the place. You'll be able to find it. So check out Working Girl. It's a really good one. And maybe we'll do New York Month. Lots of movies filmed in New York. A lot of options left. You have to wait and see. Coming up on this podcast, Zach Lowe and I decided to do a live stream right after game one of the 2025 NBA Finals. And we were assuming that OKC, who was nine and a half point favorites on FanDuel, that they were going to easily win and then game two would be the game. That's not what happened. Indiana came back and it was awesome. And we jumped right on YouTube live after that and everything we did was we recorded eight minutes after the game. So that's what you're about to hear. We're going to take a break. We're going to bring in Pearl Jam and then Zach Lowe and I breaking down an incredible game one of the 2025 finals. Next. Let's go. This episode is presented by State Farm. It's no secret that great teams need great teammates. I've been saying this for years. And when it comes to insurance, State Farm is there to help you find the right coverage for your home, car and more. Whether you need an in person or digital assist, they're ready. When life Hits you with a full court press. Get a game plan that helps fit your life. Talk to State Farm today. State Farm with the assist coverage options that are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. We were assuming it would be an OKC 20 point easy win. We would have to make weird OKC conversation because they're a hard thing to talk about. And then Indiana was like, I can't even speak. Indiana was like, we're Michael Myers. You thought we were dead. We fell out of the, out of the deck in the back and we landed on our back and you looked out there and all of a sudden we weren't there. And we just keep coming and coming and eventually we get you and you don't know what happened. It's. I can't speak.

[Zach Lowe]

I've come to the conclusion that I just don't get the Indiana Pacers. I don't get. I don't get how they do this. I don't get how there's at least one game every series where they do this. It's Halliburton at the end of every game with the last shot emerging. I mean like the number of clutch shots he's made this season in this playoffs. This is like an all time legendary crunch time heater. And he didn't even play that well in the course of the game. And all anyone's going to remember is the last shot. This is. The Pacers are unbelievable. And this might be. I mean, look, we've all seen thousands of basketball games now.

[Bill Simmons]

This might be the weirder than the Knicks game one.

[Zach Lowe]

This is. This might be the. It was weird because it was weird the whole time. It was weird. Like how do they have 19 turnovers in the first half and they're not getting run out of the building? It's 11 and between 11 and 13 the whole game. I don't like it just felt like the strangest. It's the strangest game I've ever watched, I think start to finish and then the finish puts it over the top. Like, I don't. I can't wait to rewatch the fourth quarter to see what happened. Oklahoma City's offense. I just can't believe Indiana won that game. It's unbelievable. We have a series. We did. We were worried we're going to see. We got a series.

[Bill Simmons]

19 turnovers and Lou Dorrit had five threes, I think in the first three quarters. And if you just told me those two things, I would have assumed OKC won by 25. Caliburton was really Tentative. It felt like Indiana was going to lose by 20, plus various points in the game. OKC was doing the thing over and over again where they're up nine, they're up 11, they're up nine, they're up seven, they're up 11. And you just wait for them to put together that last 10, 0 run when they're up 21 and the game's over, and it just never happened. I think they got up to maybe 15, right?

[Zach Lowe]

13 or 15 was the highest lead, and it just hovered. It hovered in that range from like 11 to 13, which is not really a range. It's just small, small range. And they could never land the knockout punch. But then they'd be like, oh, it's back to 8, it's back to 9, it's back to 6, it's back to 8 again. And it's. All of a sudden, Indiana just won the game.

[Bill Simmons]

You know what the moment was? The moment where it was like, wait a second. Turner, first of all, Indy made, I think, seven, eight crazy threes. We were like, that's not going in. Then it would go in. But Turner hit that three the. Where he stepped to the left and he banked it. When he did that, I w. I was on alert after that. It was like, oh, okay. All the. All the stuff I was working on for the rundown with Zach might be just going up in smoke, but, okay. We took three field goals in the last four minutes of the game. Zach, that's weird.

[Zach Lowe]

I didn't. I mean, I can't wait to watch the game again, because I need. I didn't like the feel of Oklahoma. Oklahoma City's offense almost the entire game.

[Bill Simmons]

I meant made, not take, by the way.

[Zach Lowe]

Whatever.

[Bill Simmons]

You know what I mean?

[Zach Lowe]

I didn't. I didn't like the feel of their offense almost the whole game. A lot of that is credit to the Pacers. Their transition defense was unbelievable. To turn the ball over. I mean, it says 24 in the box score. I think that doesn't include a couple of, like. Like, other, like, extra team turnovers or whatever. I think it was like 25 or 26, and to. To not get just underwater from an avalanche of transition points. But I didn't like. I mean, Shea had 38, and it was just. I didn't love his shot selection for a lot of the game, and I.

[Bill Simmons]

Thought it felt like he was just taking a lot of shots. Like he had 11 in the first quarter. Would he end up with 30.

[Zach Lowe]

30 shots in 8?

[Bill Simmons]

3?

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, it's too Many and some I didn't like. And it felt like they got.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought Nemard really Look he had 38 points but I thought Nemard was about as comfortable as I've seen anyone defending Shay. It was like one of those things where it looked like they've been playing against each other for 10 years. He kind of knew all his stop and start moves. Even in the end when Shay got that last shot that would have put him up by three and he missed it. Nemhard was right there the whole time with them. Like pretty comfortable I thought and I.

[Zach Lowe]

Just thought they were. They got slowed down a little bit and like not a lot of flow to their offense. A lot of possessions where it was like SGA ISO all right. Nem Hart kind of stoned me kick to J Dub ISO and just sort of just there wasn't a lot of flow. And I don't know if it's because they were playing just one big the whole time and, and, and I, I thought this was a good one big series for them. Clearly they agreed they start Casen Wallace over Hartenstein but a lot of their best passing sequences are the big to big passing sequences and they, they sort of got those out of their, out of their game by the lineup choice they made. Maybe it was the pressure, the defense, the stage, the unfamiliar lineups. Like a lot of five out. Not unfamiliar but just. They clearly rejiggered their rotation for this. I didn't like the way their offense flowed. But still could we just like you mentioned the bank.

[Bill Simmons]

Can we say one thing of that rotation thing? Yes, because I think this is the key to the game. Did you look at the rebounds?

[Zach Lowe]

It's okay. 56 to 39.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean it's not 56 to 39 Indiana. So OKC goes one big instead of two. Indiana averages 39 rebounds a game in the playoffs. Like if you're going to say what's the weakest part of their game you'd say I'm worried about the rebounds. Especially against a team that plays double bigs. OKC starts one big down the stretch. They go small ball completely and give up a couple big offensive rebounds to Siakam. I just. Why is OKC changing what they're they OKC is 80 and 18 heading into this game. Why are they changing their lineups like this? Why are they going super small at the end of the games like they're the heavy favorites they're home make. Why are you changing to conform to Indiana? I don't get that.

[Zach Lowe]

So I was surprised. I mean I talked about for two podcasts in a row about how I thought probably the one big lineups were going to be a little bit smoother for the Thunder. I mean lots of people made this point too. It was not like an original point by me just because the SIAKA matchup is a tough one for, for the OKC bigs and, and a, and a better one for J Dub or Caruso or whoever takes the matchup. Um, but I still thought that they would start. Like every team just starts how we start and you gotta force us to adjust. And Richard Jefferson on the broadcast is making the point. Like if you're Indiana, this is a win. Like they've adjusted to us already. And I was thinking the opposite way. I think it was like a cold blooded we're going for the kill right out of the chute in game one.

[Bill Simmons]

We're not going to work. They got 19 turnovers in the first half.

[Zach Lowe]

If you like you, this is an all time impossible outcome. 24 turnovers to 6 against the Thunder and the Thunder don't win. The game is just absolutely bonkers.

[Bill Simmons]

Plus 17 rebounds. Indiana somehow ends up at 24 assists and it's notable that OKC has 13 because that's how it felt watching it. It felt like it was a lot of one on one stuff. I didn't feel like they were running enough. I actually didn't think like I had all these separate notes I was going to be what can Indiana do better for Game two? And it seemed like they were going to lose. The number one thing was it didn't feel like they were running. I felt like the pace. I thought they were psyched out by the defense and the steals and the turnovers and they weren't taking off on chances that they had. But it somehow worked out anyway and they won. I think there's things that they can do to be even better in game two. So when you say we have a series, like I bet Indiana thinks we have a series too because they're like, we didn't really play that well. We got, we, we rebounded well. Nobody in our team was really awesome. I mean Nemhardt I thought had a good all round game topping it some threes, but we weren't running like we should have and we were really sloppy with the ball in the first half because honestly they look nervous. And Hal Burton even said in that mic thing he was like, I'm finally getting my breath. I'm fine. Like it's nerve wracking to be in the Finals. You and I have been in the arena for those things. It's a different kind of tension, energy. Everybody's out there for three hours, and when you're a young team, you feel it. They looked nervous to me, and then they were fine.

[Zach Lowe]

We're going to be there soon. It's going to be. It's going to be exciting. Obi Toppin five threes after a start in which he looked like a little bit overwhelmed for the first 90 seconds he was on the floor, ends up makingover two minutes. Could we just. But you mentioned the bank shot three.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Which was, by the way, it was a play that the Celtics run a lot where Miles Turner fakes like he's going to set a pin down for Halliburton, and then Halliburton switches it up and sets a monster, like, double pin down for Miles Turner. That's a play that Tatum and Horford run all the time. And he banks in the three. There was a lane violation on a Seaco miss three, Missed three.

[Bill Simmons]

I, by the way, watching it in real time, I was like, that's Scott. That's a lane violation on somebody. There's four guys in the paint right now.

[Zach Lowe]

There's a tipped airball. Like an airball that's tipped, tipped in or put back in by Siakam. Just like. And by the way, and also you mentioned just the threes. Like Nismith makes one in the corner on like a broken play where Obi toppins dribbling around trying to find someone to give it to. N. Smith makes a three. Yeah, I guess Neesmith in the last. In the fourth quarter of a desperate game is just never, ever going to miss a shot again.

[Bill Simmons]

He's like.

[Zach Lowe]

And The Pacer shot 39 threes. 44% of their shots were threes. That's way above their average. And I think it's an absolute must for them to have any chance to win this series. Increase their three point attempts against a defense that will give. Not give them up because they can test them pretty well, but they'll crowd the paint and make you shoot threes and take more, increase the variance. And they ended up taking what, 39 threes compared to 30 for the Thunder. And the Thunder took a lot more field goals. That's. That's a big reason they won the game. 18 of 39, 46% on threes.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, tell me if you agree on this. They were firing them with no hesitation. And I think it was part of their game plan, especially on the road where you where OKC has been such an absolute juggernaut. And I think Carlisle told everybody if you had the three, shoot it immediately because you could see these OKC guys flying out on the corners on the top. But they. But. And I. I didn't feel like a lot of those threes were uncontested. Right? Wasn't like they. Some of the corner threes, I guess, were a little open, but for the most part, wasn't like they were wide open. It's106.98 with three minutes left. Siakam misses two free throws in a row. Lane violation gets one. SGA makes two free throws. Neesmith hits the three you mentioned. J Dub misses Nemhardt. Heat check, hesitation. Hesi step back three.

[Zach Lowe]

I got nothing going on. I'm just going to make something happen and make a three.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it was on Lou Dort too. So they're. All of a sudden, they're down three. SGA gets a two. They're down five. Nem Heart gets free. Nemhard gets free throws. Siakam blocks sga.

[Zach Lowe]

Unbelievable play. And the door. Somewhere in there, there's the Dort block where it.

[Bill Simmons]

Where it feels like on Nick.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah. Yeah. Where it's like. That might be the defining defensive player of the game. And then there's another defining defensive player of the game.

[Bill Simmons]

45 offensive rebound scores. All of a sudden, Indies down one. J Dub misses out of bounds play. I thought he got. I thought Siakam got fouled. They didn't call.

[Zach Lowe]

I thought. I thought that was a clear foul. I was. I was surprised that not only did Indiana not win that challenge, but that it was decided foul fairly quickly by the officials.

[Bill Simmons]

So OKC has the ball now. 22 seconds left with 14 on the shot clock. They go to SGA, who's been unstoppable this entire season and has always scored in this situation. Pretty much, it feels like 90% of the time. Nem hard plays, good defense gets the stop. No timeout by Carlisle. And then Halliburton has one of those. I'm not sure what to do. And I'm going against an incredible defensive player and takes a long, long two. Double pump. Almost semi double pump.

[Zach Lowe]

What was that? I gotta. I haven't watched it again. I just went. I just like fell out of my chair and logged onto the zoom. And I don't really know what happened.

[Bill Simmons]

It was ugly, but he made it. And. And There we go. 14, 10 and 6 for Hal Burn. And I felt like he was pretty tentative for most of the game. That's a Pretty nice outcome for him.

[Zach Lowe]

So. So you mentioned the J Dub miss three. I want to go back to that. That is two minutes and 20 seconds left. Thunder by six.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

If my notes are right and they're a little scribbly. Sga.

[Bill Simmons]

Cause you had a seizure.

[Zach Lowe]

I don't know what was going on. Sga, dort pick and roll up top. Probably because Halliburton is on Dort. I'm guessing SGA splits it clean like Halliburton hedges. I think it's Halliburton again. We're doing this live. It might not be Halbert, but it's whatever.

[Bill Simmons]

No, you're right. He's going down. It seems like he's going to do.

[Zach Lowe]

An SG layup if you freeze it when he gets into the paint. And he had just gotten fouled, I believe, and made two free throws like a minute before. 30 seconds before he gets in the paint, every single other Indiana defender on the floor is just like, fuck it. We're coming into the paint like, you are not shooting this shot, and we are also not going to foul. You have to pass the ball. Everyone left corner, right corner. J Dub on the wing. He kicks it to J Dub, and that's the knockout punch right there. I wrote that in my notes. The KO punch won't come. He misses that shot. And that was the moment where I thought they might. They might actually win this thing and go up 1 0.

[Bill Simmons]

I have an important question. Did you think the shot was going in? Because I did not.

[Zach Lowe]

The JDub shot or the Halliburton shot?

[Bill Simmons]

The J Dub shot?

[Zach Lowe]

I. I wasn't watching the trajectory, to be honest. I was watching the release. It looked fine. It was clear.

[Bill Simmons]

He was. When it was clear he was about to shoot, did you think it would go in?

[Zach Lowe]

If I'm remembering correctly, he. He has, like, a little pass fake where he might pass it to the corner, and then he decides to keep it himself. That's always like a. I don't know. But I. I don't remember feeling something about. You felt you felt strongly.

[Bill Simmons]

By the way, I forget what Denver game it was. I think it was Denver. What was the one where he hit that huge three that I didn't think was going in? I think it was. It was one of the Denver games, and it was the same situation, and he actually made it that time. He did not make it. I. I gotta say, the more I'm thinking about it, I'm stunned that OKC changed what they did so much in that game. I don't really fully understand it. I thought their biggest advantage was going to be the size and the rebounding and the, and the rim protection. And I know you were making the case for one big at a time, but even then, like home, Chet played 23 minutes and Hartenstein played 17 and Isaiah Joe played 11 minutes. I mean, Isaiah Joe, he was fine. He was plus three. He made, he made two shots. But I felt like every moment when they had a swing out there that wasn't an absolute piranha defensively, was. You're giving Indiana like a little chance to breathe. Yeah, I don't know. It's weird coaching.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm very interested to see what they do because I would have started the double big lineup and sort of just modified the rotation. So it's. If it's going a certain way, I go less double big, more one big. I thought the five out lineups, like the no big lineups, looked incredible defensively. Like Indiana was just like, where are we even supposed to go?

[Bill Simmons]

Right?

[Zach Lowe]

But you lose all the rebounding, but they lost too many of the rebounding. It was like a night. It was like we did everything right and then couldn't close the deal.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, key point though, with the foot with the first part in the first quarter, they were clearly eschewing, oh, we're going to do this for six minutes and then here's the lineup we love. They're like, fuck it, we're going to try to blow you out of the, out of the arena in the first half. Which they kind of did.

[Zach Lowe]

I. They did. They did. And it was, I mean, I just couldn't, like when the turnovers just kept happening, like every variety of turnover, entry passes, back door passes, lost it in the back court, dead ball turnovers. There was, I think the one that put him up 15, by the way, when you mentioned the biggest lead was when they couldn't inbound the ball from the baseball.

[Bill Simmons]

T.J. mcConnell in that place and J.

[Zach Lowe]

Dub dunked it and that felt again, that felt like a knockout punch. Like, how many times have we seen this game? And the Pacers, man, they just keep on playing. They just keep playing. It's really. They're just, they're an awesome, awesome team and they just keep on coming.

[Bill Simmons]

SGA had 18 shots in the first half. He was 8 for 18 and plus 15 just for the.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm not going to lie. I got a text from an assistant coach who was like, is he going to shoot 40 times in this game? Like, are we going to see a 40 shot performance by SGA and it was not a compliment.

[Bill Simmons]

I saw a station today somewhere on social media that Shaq was the last scoring champ to win the title. And it did make me pause for a second. I was like, wow, 25 years since that's happened. Seems like a long time.

[Zach Lowe]

Who.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I'll do some of my notes that I still feel like we can still use, because I was going to ask you this after okc1, but now they didn't win. Who was the MVP of that game? If this was hockey, you're not a hockey guy. This is hockey. Who's the star of the game? Who's the guy who skates out last, waves to the crowd?

[Zach Lowe]

I think the guy who skates out last is Halliburton. Just because he made the shot at the end. I think the sneaky MVP of the game for Indiana and it's just so befitting of how he plays is siakam just quietly 19 and 10, makes big plays, defends everywhere. You kind of don't notice him for a little while and. But he's just a consistent positive force for them. Miles Turner was good in 28 minutes and then the top in five threes. And McConnell kept them afloat during a couple stretches where it looked like it could get out of hand. Those were. That's. Those are nine big points for T.J. mcConnell. He's minus 13. I get it. It's not like a fantastic game, but those buckets felt huge.

[Bill Simmons]

So I would say Nemard because I thought there were a couple moments where if he didn't play with the confidence that he had down the stretch, I just think they immediately lose. But you could also talk me to siakam. Siakam had 10 rebounds. It's interesting Halburn did too, because I was looking at the props for this game on FanDuel before the game and I had to do that Taylor fade pick, which I ended up doing SJ two threes which hit. But I was initially going to do Siakam rebounds. Cause I was like, who's going to get rebounds on Indiana? And I went and I looked at his rebound game log and he's really like 4, 5, 6 a game. This game he had 10 and he had a couple big offensive rebounds. I thought in traffic like to keep plays alive. And in general I just felt like they kept plays alive a couple of times. So did okc. OKC had a couple good tap outs, but if I'm okc, I'm. I'm. Screw this. Let's go big again. We can't get. We can't go minus 17 on the boards at home.

[Zach Lowe]

You know, it's interesting. One of the more eye popping stats in the box scores Chet Holmrid's minutes, which you mentioned earlier, is 23 and change.

[Bill Simmons]

The second or third best guy in the team.

[Zach Lowe]

And some of it is probably because he's on Miles Turner. And that's fine. Like that's not a bad defensive matchup or anything. But Miles Turner is a pick and pop big man. And Shay, I'm sorry. Chet has made his bones in the NBA and made Oklahoma City's defense superpowered by being at the rim all the time. And by virtue of how they are matching up in this series so far through one game, he can't be at the rim all the time. And I wonder if he just doesn't feel as useful to Dagnalt if he's not in that role. Like, he's guarded Jada McDaniels, he's guarded Aaron Gordon, he's guarded guys where he could just be at the basket all the time. Which is why, you know, I, I, I thought that they would start big and I said on my butt. I thought I would try him on Siakam. And I realized that looks like a bad matchup for Chep. And Woz made this point on group chat this week is like, Casiakam can just kind of get under taller, skinnier guys and do his Siakam stuff. And I was like, I still would try it because he's got to finish over Chet even if he backs him under the rim. And I just like Chet near the basket. If Chet's gonna be on the floor, I like him near the basket. And I just wonder if maybe I'm crazy, but I wonder if they do start double big if they match up that way. Hartenstein on Turner and Shet on Siakam. But yeah, they went for, they went for the jugular with that adjustment. They were like, we're not messing around. And it kind of worked. And then nothing worked.

[Bill Simmons]

Can I extend your point?

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I just want Chet in the court. I think he's one of the 20 best guys in the league. Playing him 23 minutes in the finals game seems crazy to me. I don't understand why he wouldn't be out there. I mean, he was 2 for 9. Maybe they thought he looked nervous. I don't know. You made a point. You kind of ruined. You hurt my feelings earlier in the week when you did your tibs. The thing you the beginning of your pod yesterday and you did the whole thing about when we complain about coaches and adjustments and then you talk to a coach and you realize they're so much smarter than you. And I was like, don't lift the curtain for me, Zach. I want to feel like I'm as smart as these guys because I. Don't tell me how much, don't tell me how much smarter they are than me. What am I going to do? I'd like to second guess them, but.

[Zach Lowe]

My addendum to that would be and I should have made it and I'll make it here is that even if they are aware of all of these criticisms and are five steps ahead of you, they still, and I think this is where Tibbs falls, they still will default to what they feel most comfortable doing. Even if some part of them is like, I should try this, I should try that, or some coaches will do that. I think Tibbs is like that. Tibbs can, Tibbs could sit down and tell you 17 different counters to 17 different adjustments that you think he should do and why they wouldn't work and still be aware of like they might work. But I'm. He's going to lean on to what he knows. But anyway, go ahead.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, so Carlisle, there's two. And I thought there was good mic'd up moments in this game. Carlisle, they had in the huddle in the first half and he said, you can't dribble into a crowd against this team. You can't throw mid bounce passes into the middle against this team. And. Which was actually a lot of information from a coach. Usually it's like, guys play hard. You got to move your legs. But he, he was basically like, you're entering the bowels of hell when you go into the middle and you're dribbling. Please don't do that. I kept, I obviously I have to bring the Celtics into this. It's been 20 minutes. I did think today about Jalen Brown and a couple of the other Celtics just dribbling into the middle in this game and how bad some of the plays would have gone. But then at halftime they showed Carlisle too talking to the team and they showed in the third quarter and he's like, Hey, 19 turnovers, we're not playing well. We're fine. Keep doing what you're doing. Keep like. He clearly like wasn't rattled by whatever he saw in the first half. And their strategy was like, as long as you don't turn the ball over, we're going to shoot threes, we're going to keep the pace. I Like the pace we're at and we can kind of hang around. Cause that was not how I felt at halftime. At halftime I was like, they're going to lose by 25.

[Zach Lowe]

No, at halftime, I felt like I was in the twilight zone for like the entire first half. I was like, is this a real game? Am I dreaming? How many turnovers do they have? And yet the score is only 12:11. The whole game. I felt like I was hallucinating everything that was happening, including maybe right now, I don't know, the tyres. Halliburton hit another last second shot. Like, what is going on?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, so I wrote, I had adjustments for game two that I did before, before the comeback. And the two adjustments I had for Indy was Indy has to run more, which I think they're going to do anyway. I think they're going to look at the tape and realize, like, we're not. We weren't aggressive enough off rebounds. The other one's interesting because his stats weren't good. And this is just an eye test, and that isn't backed up by any actual information. I thought Matheran seemed athletically comfortable in this game, and I'm intrigued by what his upside is for them because OKC is so fast and so athletic and they're just at warp speed. And I just thought he looked comfortable in the chaos in a way that I'm wondering, are we going to hear from him in this series with one of those game when. One of those games, you know, when Mather will have those games where he is like, he scored 27 points in 22 minutes. I feel like that. I feel like he's going to have one of those.

[Zach Lowe]

So another sort of Rick Carlisle just pushes all the right buttons all the time. Toppin looks overwhelmed immediately and has a disastrous two minutes. Some coaches would be like, it's just not. Not going to be his night. Like, I'll try him one more stint if it doesn't work out. And like, he's like, we need, you know, Matheran, I thought, started the game also really bad. He had a couple offensive possessions where he hesitated and the whole flow stopped. And Carlisle yanked him quickly after one of those possessions and then put him back in the game. I thought we. I thought we might not see him again after that substitution. Put him back in the game. It's not like he did anything amazing. He was 1 for 5. But I thought you got to the line for four free throws and just looked again, comfortable. And he likes speed. The Pacers, when you talk to their people, they view. They view these series like holistically they are thinking. They try to hold adjustments in the bag for future games instead of panicking and overdoing it right away. Like even if they're big underdogs like they are here, they're sort of playing in their head as if this is going to be a really long series. And I think trusting those guys to keep playing is like we're going to need them at some point in the series. Turned out they needed him today. Um, Thomas Bryant even comes in and scores five points corner three at the end of the third quarter. Like just okay.

[Bill Simmons]

His corner three is starting to look Ray Allen esque. He's one where I think it's going in. Yeah. When when Thomas Bryant's lining up. Lots more to discuss. We're going to take a break for the podcast. We'll keep going on the on the YouTube here. Hey sports fans, we got a big day. Games on Saturday. Fandom wants you to make the most of it. Right now, for one day only, America's number one sportsbook is giving all of its customers a 50% profit boost to use on any bet across any sport on June 7th. We're talking baseball, WNBA, UFC. You can bet on Kevin Holland, you can bet against Sean o' Malley. Baseball, you could bet on Garrett Crochet to give up under two runs and then the Red Sox to blow a tie game in the in the ninth inning. I don't know how you bet that, but you could do that. What? Whatever you want. You get a profit boost. It's 50%. And if you think you know what's going to happen, knock yourself out. This offer is Only valid for June 7th. Don't miss your chance. Visit FanDuel.com BS to join today. Make every moment more with FanDuel. America's number one sportsbook must be 21 + President select states or 18 + in President D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in required bonus issued as non travel profit boost tokens. Restrictions apply including any token expiration max wager amount c [e-mail] GAM PROM call 100 GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com this episode is brought to you by HubSpot. Growing a business, it can feel impossible, but HubSpot's customer platform, I promise, can help you. It's powered by a suite of AI tools called Breez, so you can generate more leads, close more deals and scale your service fast. With Breeze agents handling the busy work, customers are cutting sales cycles in half and saving hours on work each Week. Best of all, you can see results in days, not months. Visit HubSpot.comai to learn more. So Halliburton.

[Zach Lowe]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

What a rollercoaster ride for this guy. From a big picture standpoint, I think if they lose this game by 12:15, Halliburton becomes on the TV shows the next day, the Where's Tyrese Halliburton? He's got a step up. It's the finals.

[Zach Lowe]

You love to step. You love to step up.

[Bill Simmons]

He's the step up guy because I thought he was a little tentative, but in. Sometimes he's tentative because he's trying to feel out the game. In this case, he's going against like an actual fish tank of piranha. And I think going from the speed of what he was going against against the Knicks and just trying to hunt Jalen Brunson in towns for two weeks. And then you see this team and you're like, I. Who. Who do I hunt? I, I, I, what do I do? But I. I thought he kept tossing the car case to Nemhard in smart ways. He didn't. You know, they had all these turnovers. I think he only had three. A lot of the turnovers were Turner and Nith and then those three topping and McConnell had a couple, but I don't know. I. I expect him to be a little more assertive maybe. And in game two as well. I think they have some moves left. I think they have bullets in the arsenal for the next game.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, when you turn the ball over 25 times, you just like, like, that's one bullet in the arsenal is just don't do stuff like that.

[Bill Simmons]

Take care of the ball. So they had five in the second half, which is a good sign, too. If you're in Dana, you're like, hey, let's play like we did in the second half.

[Zach Lowe]

Another three. And I think it was in the fourth quarter, and I don't remember which one if we're talking about just everything's got to flip, right? Kind of plays for you to come back and win a game like this. But there was one possession where Neesmith almost got stripped of the ball like four times in two seconds. He was in the paint. Then he was under the rim somehow, didn't lose the ball and found top in for a three. And that was also what. I don't. I think that was in the fourth quarter. I was like, I don't understand. I just don't even understand what's happening anymore. And they just keep coming.

[Bill Simmons]

So there was a lot of talk last season about the sameness of the. Of the styles and the teams and. And by the way, there was talk on your podcast and my podcast about it. Are we heading toward a world where everybody has the same offense and plays the same way, and it's all about just hunting matchups and shooting threes and having two guys in the corner and four guys standing around and then one guy comes over and sets a pick and that's just going to be basketball and OKC in Indiana. One of the reasons I think we had so much trouble wrapping our heads around game one as we're watching it was neither of them play like that. I mean, OKC was a little predictable with the SGA stuff, but for the most part, you have. OKC is playing small ball down the stretch. Their defense is unlike anything anybody else has. Indiana is just a hodgepodge of I don't know what the fuck is going on. And. And there's just a natural chaos that both teams have that makes me think maybe this series is going to be better than we thought. I thought it was going to be okay seeing four or five. I picked five. I think you picked five, too.

[Zach Lowe]

I picked five, Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't expect for Indiana.

[Zach Lowe]

Not looking good. OKC in five.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, because I figured OKC on the road's a little bit different. Right? It's. It's going to be a little more. A little more grueling for them. I mean, could this be like the Philly lakers series in 01 where Philly steals the game in game one and then the Lakers just dispatch them after that over the next four? Maybe, maybe it doesn't.

[Zach Lowe]

It right now, in the wake of that game, it doesn't feel like that because Oklahoma City looked a little. Confused is the wrong word. They just looked a little like off. Trying to figure out what to do against Indiana and how this. This different team that plays differently.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, it was a little like the first Denver home game where they had. They controlled the game for 44 minutes and then something weird happened them. I also think they were going too slow and they stopped kind of looking sometimes. This is obviously the all time example of this for the last few years of the Celtics where they would have this lead and they would change how they played to kind of almost protect the lead and change their identity in four minutes. And I felt a little of that with them.

[Zach Lowe]

I want to rewatch the fourth quarter because I think Indiana just began selling out to the paint. Like we're just going to make you guys make threes. We're not giving you thousand. We're not giving you layups.

[Bill Simmons]

But can you look for Chad Holmgren as you're rewatching the fourth quarter?

[Zach Lowe]

He's always. He's easy to spot when he's on the bench. He's very tall.

[Bill Simmons]

He's the guy on the bench going, looking at the coach over and over again, going, am I going back in? I'm like the 19th. I was 19th of the Ringer 100.

[Zach Lowe]

But when you. I mean, like, yes, Oklahoma City, I thought play. I thought they played too slowly, almost in like a Knicks kind of way where there were a lot of possessions, where there was 13 on the shot clock by the time they just walked it up, and there's 13 on the shot clock by the time they did anything. Like. Like, part of the slowness for both teams, not you. You've suggested both teams run more is like, these are two of the three or four, if even that many, best transition defense teams in the league. Like, it's hard to run against these teams because they're super fast, super athletic, and super attentive to just, like, we're not giving up fast break points. But even just taking the ball out of the basket. I thought Indiana didn't play or Oklahoma City didn't play with enough speed. Indiana will play with speed. After you make a basket, they'll be underneath your basket in. In five seconds. And I think both teams have different tools they can play with to play a little faster. But I thought in Oklahoma City kind of sunk into a. Why are you guys walking it up like this? Let's go. Like, get your young and fast. And that's not how you. That's not how you play. I guess that's. That's how I was feeling about Oklahoma City for a lot of this game, other than when they were forcing a million turnovers. Like, this doesn't feel like how you. It's too deliberate. It almost feels a little too deliberate for how you guys usually play.

[Bill Simmons]

One thing about what you said about pushing the pace but being nervous about okc, it was interesting to watch both Halbert and Nemhard when they're going up the middle, and they were constantly doing this, looking left, right, as they're going full speed because, oh, there's no team like OKC that just comes diving in from the sides, right? It's almost like you're driving on the highway and you just have cars, like, trying to basically spin you out on your left fender and your right fender. These guys are jumping up and they Seem rattled by it or right from behind.

[Zach Lowe]

Like, if you get a rebound and you start pushing it up like. Like there was at least one or two where one was like, Dort just comes up right from behind and takes the ball. I'm Dort. How about Dort? By the way, when Dort made his two back, he made like two consecutive threes. One was like the Nemhar one where he just was like, I'm just going to ISO this and launch a three. And then he made another one on the next session. I was like, well, tough one for Indiana.

[Bill Simmons]

Lou Dort is going to just go.

[Zach Lowe]

Go crazy for from three, you know?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, he was going to be my MVP if they won this game. He's also. It's funny, I wrote this down and then they lost. But Jaden McDaniels was like this from Minnesota. Dort is the guy for OKC where if he's shooting the ball well, on top of doing the defensive stuff, you just feel like they're completely unbeatable. Of course, they.

[Zach Lowe]

Four steals and five threes for Lou Dort. Yeah, if his threes plus steals are approaching 10, that's usually a problem.

[Bill Simmons]

So I googled, like a lot of people at halftime, the record for turnovers in a finals game, and they weirdly got it wrong. In the broadcast. They said it was 34 with the 77 Blazers and it was 36. Golden State, game three, 1975 finals. A game that they won by eight and they had 36 turnovers. And I did a tweet joking about how, hey, you can do this, but I just thought that was so crazy that somebody turned the ball over 36 times and won. And now we have a game where somebody turned it over 24 times and won. All right, so what are our fixes for OKC for game two? If you had to make picks here.

[Zach Lowe]

Play with more just juice in the half court, play with more urgency, more speed, like I thought. I think they could probably hunt Halliburton a little bit more often and a little bit more effectively than they did. But part of that is, like, setting good screens. Like, I don't think they like Halliburton's guys screening for Shea. Like, sometimes you got to hit the guy, force them to make a decision, force him to help a little bit more. And I thought some of their best offense was keep it simple. Like Shay going at the Indiana big men on the pick and roll. I thought was more effective than Isoball, than getting cute, trying to do guard, guard screens, hunting Halliburton even though as I say that they could hunt him more effectively. I thought like Miles Turner did not really have a good game. Trying to contain Shay on the pick and roll Toppin couldn't do it. Even Siakam on a switch once got burned. I thought like, that's the simplest offense in the NBA, right? Just have your big guy, if there's one on the floor, come screen, get the other team center involved and. And go from there. And I thought Halliburton actually had some success doing that too. On the other end. Those would be two I and I think the rotation's a big one. I even think like Ken Rich Williams one minute, that was weird. I could, I would play him more at the 4, maybe a little bit. Did not, did not have the AJ Mitchell first half stint in my notes. Didn't see that one coming. Not really sure why that happened, but it was just. Just weird.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you notice it's always hard to tell through the tv, but sometimes you kind of tell. Crowd got super tight the last three minutes.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, you can tell.

[Bill Simmons]

You could feel it. That was. We've never won the title. What's going on? Oh, God. And it's interesting because I went to game one of the 2012 series against LeBron and the Heat, which if I remember correctly, OKC, I thought should have won that game. Maybe they did win the game one of those first two games, the rank.

[Zach Lowe]

Out game one in the corner and then came out game one, they won. Game two is the game you're talking about where Durant gets fouled up. Miami's up.

[Bill Simmons]

Sitting where he got fouled.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, Miami's up too.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but yeah, that crowd is absolutely loud. Your head hurts when you leave. But they can also get a little tight.

[Zach Lowe]

And don't you think some of that is also. Like those fans know this team has done this to every team they've faced in the playoffs so far. Like, if we let this game get away. We've seen Indiana in this movie before. Like, it's dangerous. A, it's dangerous, they're never out of the game. And B, if we give them momentum with a home loss like this, who the hell knows what could happen?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, what's interesting, big picture, Indiana, who, if they just get swept in the finals, just historically legacy wise, you'd be like, oh, yeah, that was a weird season. Indiana beat Milwaukee, then they shot Cleveland, they had all those comebacks and then they beat the Knicks and they fired Tibbs and then they got killed in the finals. Yeah, I kind of remember that. Team. Now it's like, remember that Indiana team? Holy shit. You had to like chop their head off and decapitate them to get them out of the way. What a crazy finals team that was.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean, some. Someone, some like Kevin Pelton stats kind of person is going to have to go through the database and study, is this the greatest clutch shooting season, last two minute, last 90 seconds?

[Bill Simmons]

Playoffs?

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah. Or, but, but even regular season, he was incredible too. It's like he just is. Halliburton is making all this shot. We didn't, you know what? We did not hammer enough. We kind of hammered around it. We didn't hammer it enough. J dub and shet, eight of 28 combined from the floor. Chet. Chet made two baskets the entire game. The first was to my earlier point about keep it simple, pick and pop, pump fake, drive by Miles Turner, layup. The second was a fast, A dunk on a breakdown on a. On a double pick and staggered pick and roll. That's just like two, two baskets for Chet and eight of 28 for those two guys. Like, you know, that's in game one of the finals when Oklahoma City loses, the focus is often on those, the second and third guys. Because Shay, even when he has an game, and this is like Ash, as I think a 38 point game could be, puts up numbers with some decent level of efficiency. And so the spotlight always goes to those guys. They weren't good enough.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the other thing about the finals that we love the rhythm of these games where you have game one and this is the only time you have the home game with the, with the two days off and two days talking about it, and tomorrow people are going to go to Nemhard and be like, you've been going against SGA for a long time. What's your secret? Just dying for him to say one dumb thing. You're dagnal. What? You guys are 80 and 18. Chet played 23 minutes. Hartenstein played 17. Like, what are you doing? I mean, I'm sure that was in the press conference right now. So a little bit of a pressure and then on top of it you have Indiana, which I think has a great crowd, and now they can decide the series at home if they want to. And they would be, I, I think the most improbable finals champ.

[Zach Lowe]

Easy, easy. Let's not do it yet.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm trying to think, is there anybody, even if you said like the 77 Blazers or the 78 Sonics, like that era, even, I don't know, talk about it, they were 28 to 1 in the east before the playoffs, this would be the fucking craziest finals.

[Zach Lowe]

If you were a Pacers fan right now and the basketball gods came to you and said, hey, we'll make you a deal, would you sign up for two two right now, going back to Oklahoma City, two two for game five, would you take that deal? Or are you going to get greedy and think we can be up?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think I can win if it's two two. I think I have to win two of the next three.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay. All right.

[Bill Simmons]

I assume I'm going to win game three, and then game four will be. You assume OKC will do the thing where they win by 38 in game two in one of those games, and then we'd be like, oh, NDA already got the game they got. Then India win game three, then game four, be the series. I will say, though, when you're a big underdog, I really like winning game one. I just feel like if the recipe to actually win a series when you're a massive underdog like that now you only have to win three of the next six. By the way, these aren't like outstanding points by me. I'm just pointing out you lose that first game, now you have to win four of the next six, and you're the big underdog to begin with. Conversely, we've seen some teams where they blow that first game in a, in a big series or even a finals. And it turns, you know, we just saw it with the Knicks series. You saw it in Orlando, Houston in 1995. Sometimes there could be a devastating Game 1 loss and the team can get rattled. I think OKC will be fine though, because Chet will play more, J Dub will be better and. And I assume they're not going to get out rebounded by 17 again.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, this is also where the Denver series into a lesser extent, Game four in Minnesota are just massively important for them because they've answered the bell already every time they face pressure, including being down 2:1 to Den, specifically J Dub, especially J Dub in games seven of the, of the Denver series. So it's that, right? This is. This is no longer like, it's uncharted because it's the finals, but they've kind of done this before. And this seems like a team who won't get too high or too low to use a cliche.

[Bill Simmons]

I have Dan as a winner, Nicole Jokic, just because I think OKC is just an absolute beast. And you think like he takes takes Team USA to the Brink almost beats them, takes this OKC team to seven. And then you watch them that first half and you're like, oh, my God, this team's gonna go 84 and 18. And then maybe he's not as much of a standard.

[Zach Lowe]

Shouldn't, shouldn't one of the winners be like Tibbs and, and the Knicks by, by that standard? Like, you know, okay, now they.

[Bill Simmons]

Knicks really quick.

[Zach Lowe]

They've got, they've got company now.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, we'll do the next really quick. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. For a limited time, get a new Apple card and get $150 bonus daily cash when you spend $150 or more at Nike in your first 30 days.

[Zach Lowe]

Using your new Apple card with Apple Pay.

[Bill Simmons]

Visit Apple Co nikepromo for important offer details. Subject to credit approval.

[Zach Lowe]

Offer valid only for new Apple card.

[Bill Simmons]

Accounts open by June 15, 2025. To qualify, you must spend $150 or more on Nike. Purchases within the US offer may not be available elsewhere. Additional terms and limitations apply. Knicks coach Drama boy. Boy, there's been some buzzing, boy. There's been some tidbits and some, some things being talked about.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Sources are saying stuff.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, what are they saying?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know. It just seems that Knicks team was a lot more dysfunctional than I think. Heard hints. I heard rumors and. But man feels a little game. Game of Thronesy over there.

[Zach Lowe]

Dysfunctional. Well, okay, so are you talking about players or like, when you say Game of Thrones, you usually mean, you know, the upper echelon of management.

[Bill Simmons]

Here's my question for you. So Jalen Brunson's dad is one of the coaches of the team and worked with Tibbs for a long time. And Dante DiVincenzo was yelling at him for some reason in that first home game and seemed like he had felt betrayed by him. And there's always rumors that he had an outsized voice with Leon and all those dudes. If you're the next coach, do you want your own staff or do you want to inherit this staff? That felt like it got a little Game of Thrones. You down the stretch there.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, so every coach wants his own staff. And there are some coaches for whom that's been a deal breaker when they are told during the hiring process, well, you got to keep this guy or you got to keep this guy. You got to keep these two guys. It has been either a deal breaker or begrudgingly accepted by a coach who really wants a particular job with an eye on, like all right, I'll give it a year, and then I'll exercise my power. This is obviously a much different situation since he is the father of the franchise player. And I think that is a discussion that has to include lots of different parties to come to a. If a change is made, I think a lot of different people have to be involved in that, and I don't. When you talk to people around the league, there's a lot of skepticism that there would be a change made because he is Jalen Brunson's father.

[Bill Simmons]

But I think skepticism is underrating it. I think people think he will be on the bench.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, that's kind of what I meant. Yeah. But, you know, dysfunctional is like. It's a strong. It's a strong word.

[Bill Simmons]

80.

[Zach Lowe]

It's just like, every team's got its stuff. Right. Every team's got its stuff in the locker room.

[Bill Simmons]

But a lot of leaks, a lot of maneuvering. The story from the moment the season ended all the way through that athletic thing that we talked about on our podcast that came out almost right afterwards, the scapegoating. And that was really interesting. I've been following that.

[Zach Lowe]

That was Cat. Cat was kind of hit hard in that one. And Tibbs. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Called it out that night. When I read the story, was like, all right, this is notable that these are the two scapegoats. Let's see how it goes. I'll be interested to see if Cat will be the other domino that falls with this, but would. Who wants this job? Is. I assumed Johnny Bryant was going to get it because the sun said there were two people left him. The guy who got the job.

[Zach Lowe]

Jordan. Odd. Give Jordan some love.

[Bill Simmons]

Who apparently is married to somebody named Jordan. Did you hear this?

[Zach Lowe]

I. I did not. I have not.

[Bill Simmons]

Both named Jordan. Interesting couple. That's. That's what I heard. I don't know if that's true. Wow. But so, Johnny podcast.

[Zach Lowe]

How many names? How many names could you do that with? Okay. You know, have the same. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. It would have to be like, Jordan Kelly.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah. Kelly's a good one.

[Bill Simmons]

Anyway. Alex. Yeah, Alex is a good one. But so when Johnny was in the final two, and then all of a sudden the other guy got it. I just assumed he was the Knicks thing. I don't think Ben Gundy. That name got flown around. But he's.

[Zach Lowe]

Which one?

[Bill Simmons]

Jeff. He's friends with. Yeah. I just obviously really close with tips. I don't see him being like, cool. Yeah, you shanked my guy. I'd love to take the job.

[Zach Lowe]

Everything he's ever said publicly and privately would cut against him taking that job.

[Bill Simmons]

So who's left? The only name that didn't really get mentioned that I was surprised. Oh, you're excited. Taylor Jenkins is a good coach. I watched a lot of Memphis games going man they have a really good coach and he's just kind of sitting there. Everyone was talking Mike Malone but to me that, that just feels like you're running back a different version of Tibbs. Taylor Jenkins, I thought you could make a pretty fair case with him that he had a really tough job the last couple years.

[Zach Lowe]

He's a very good coach. Taylor Jenkins is a very good coach. Memphis to New York as a market and as expectations faced is about as big of a jump as you can.

[Bill Simmons]

Make and you go from Chris Vernon to 40 Chris Vernon's.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean does James Dolan know who Taylor Jenkins is? So like start there. Like I'm not even being facetious. Like is he aware that that's a coach? I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm not sure he's hiring the next coach. I think this is a Leon thing but, but he'll. He's got a rubber sign off on it. Who do you think is going to be the next coach?

[Zach Lowe]

I have no earthly idea. I mean I, you know, I've heard rumblings of like they maybe they want an ex player, an ex NBA player. I don't know if that's, I don't know if that's true.

[Bill Simmons]

My favorite is Ron Artest during his hat in the ring was my number one thing that happened.

[Zach Lowe]

He really wants to coach. He really wants to coach.

[Bill Simmons]

Pretty sure he's not going to get it.

[Zach Lowe]

I don't, I see come up on like the list of like you know, the 20 best odds to coach the New York Knicks where it's like the bottom one is. The last one is like Stephen A. Smith. Like they get real.

[Bill Simmons]

Joe House is right above him. Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

I thought the name, I thought Frank Vogel might come up just because he's a New York guy but he's, you know, he's been in a lot of places now in a short amount of time. Look the one. Yeah, well he's. I, I saw that you, you, you boosted his. I'm going to get more involved. Watch out. I'm going to get ishpia. I'm going to get more involved. I wasn't involved enough and I'm going to get more involved.

[Bill Simmons]

Like it wasn't his idea to throw Cam Johnson in the Kevin Durant Trade and like one more pick and just be like, whatever.

[Zach Lowe]

You're loving Ishbier. You got him on your podcast right off the bat.

[Bill Simmons]

And now I had no idea it was going to be as special as it was.

[Zach Lowe]

I think. I think he's not. He's not going to come back, actually.

[Bill Simmons]

Was I. I was going to do this with you on the pod. The most hilarious owner of each decade, because he's clearly halfway there. Vivec was locked it down in the 2010s.

[Zach Lowe]

The is coming in for a late. A late 2020 round.

[Bill Simmons]

You can't count him out. You can't really. He just can't. He's. I'm not saying HB has it locked up yet, but he's. He's in the lead and he's feeling good. But Vivek, you know, who knows? But Vivek won last decade and then I think probably Dolan won in the 2000s with all the crazy shit he did.

[Zach Lowe]

He's not hilarious, though. It doesn't fit him.

[Bill Simmons]

So who would you have in the 2000s? Sarver.

[Zach Lowe]

No, nothing. They're malicious people. They're not hilarious. Sarver did illegal stuff. Well, we didn't know that.

[Bill Simmons]

In the 2000s, face civil litigation anyway. No, that was later. I'm saying 2000s, 2007, when he basically hired Steve Kerr. It's like you have to get into the luxury tracks, trade all our picks. I mean, you know who it is? It was Cuban. From a hilarious standpoint. Some of the stuff where he was sitting on the bench and remember the time he ran on the court during the fight to break up the court and then realized he shouldn't be on the court. He had some funny stuff. HP is the clear winner in the 2000s, though.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean, I guess we can't blame. Well, we can blame, but it wasn't hilarious. Glenn Taylor for just overseeing the entire David Kahn experience in Minnesota.

[Bill Simmons]

But, you know, this is why you're the best. Not only that, but he lost four picks for Joe Smith.

[Zach Lowe]

But he was never hilarious. Was never hilarious.

[Bill Simmons]

He called, as we had in the Celtic City Doc. He called Wick to congratulate him on winning the 2008 title because he was trading him Kevin Garnett. He had Kevin McHale as a coach and a GM at the same time. And flip Saunters. Yeah, it's Glenn Taylor. It's a great call.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, wait, wait, wait, wait. Let's go back to the Knicks we didn't like. Who do you think is going to get the job.

[Bill Simmons]

I find it hard to believe Johnny Bryant's going to be the head coach. The more I looked at it and thought about it, it just doesn't seem like he's experienced enough. This is one of the biggest jobs in the league. I would bet on Taylor Jenkins, Frank Vogel, Mike Malone, one of those guys who at least has been in some situations.

[Zach Lowe]

What about the. What about the can we trade for your coach gambit that has been mentioned with IME Odoka and Jason Kidd? Any of that interesting to you?

[Bill Simmons]

Why would Houston trade IME Adoka? Like just throw him out. He's. They're not getting rid of him. That's ridiculous.

[Zach Lowe]

I agree. And I don't think he would leave. It's a great situation. Even with the east being so much worse than the West. It's a great situation. And also like I know how Houston's GM Rafael Stone negotiates would just be like, you don't even have enough. You don't have enough. I want three first round picks and you don't even have that. The kid one is interesting to me.

[Bill Simmons]

Because he's certainly didn't love the Luca one.

[Zach Lowe]

I wouldn't take my eyes off it. That's all I. That's all I would say now. I wouldn't disqualify it. I wouldn't take my eyes off it. In part because as you and I are batting it around, we can't find another candidate that's like, oh, that's. That makes a ton of sense for a team that has said in its press release announcing the firing of Tom Thibodeau, we are a championship roster. Or at least we believe we are. That's the pressure, that's the expectations. That's why it's hard to imagine a first time head coach walking into that job.

[Bill Simmons]

I apologize to the friend who sent me this oh boy. That I can't remember their name.

[Zach Lowe]

What kind of friend are you?

[Bill Simmons]

But made the point Tibbs would have been the greatest Atlanta Hawks coach and that the best outcome would have been a Quinn Snyder for Tibbs trade over firing Tibs. Because if you put Tibbs on Atlanta, he basically just could have run the Knicks offense with Trey as Jalen Brunson, but then had all this defense and all these wings and a congu as the Shop Walker and just done the Tibs with that team and Trey could have shot 36 times. I again, I really apologize to my friend who texted this, but I thought it was great. And then Quinn Snyder on the Knicks bench with the red glasses Just. Just being weird and handsome.

[Zach Lowe]

He's got to get blue glasses then. Blue glasses or orange glasses.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. Dark blue glasses. I thought that was a really good one. I think. I think it's a guy with some pedigree. The Malone would be a weird one, though, because he's a little gruff like Tibbs was. But the guy won a title two years ago.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, so that's a great. This is a point I wanted to make and I should admit it about Tibbs, and I'm going to make it again on my podcast this weekend. Michael Mullen's a great name to bring up. Mike Budenholzer is a great name to bring up, not for this job, but for this. For this purpose. Frank Vogel is a great name to bring up. Not necessarily for this job, but for this purpose. The idea that Tibbs is not a championship coach, that you need a different coach to take your team. He's the floor raiser who can only take your team so far. I think there's some merit to the general idea of Tibbs as that because he is indisputably an incredible floor raiser. Incredible. And I don't think he's like a Carlisle SPO level. Quarter for quarter, minute for minute adjustment guy. That's your playoff dream coach. Right. But I don't think any of those other guys were either. And, like, that's why Mike Budenholzer got fired in Milwaukee. He was too slow to adjust, blah, blah, blah. Michael Malone was never thought of as like this incredible wizard of adjustments and all this stuff. And those guys won championships. Like, if you have the right talent. And if you have the right talent, right year, right circumstances. Like, yeah, I should have been clear about this. Like, Tom Thibodeau can absolutely win an NBA championship, even if he is more of a floor raiser than a ceiling raiser. He can. He's so good at getting your floor so high that he can get you into that spot. He can absolutely win a championship. And, like, that's why that Michael Malone, Mike Boonehole, remember Bud, was like, on thin ice several times in Milwaukee, mostly because of the idea that he was not as good of a playoff coach as someone like Eric Spoelstra, who kind of exposed him a couple times and he won the championship, that's all.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I think it seems like it was time for Tibbs to go in New York after five years.

[Zach Lowe]

Didn't you float?

[Bill Simmons]

It felt like the core guys were good. Moving on with him. And you lose the core guys, it's a wrap in the NBA. And that's why the longest tenured coaches in the league go back to 2020. Can we just.

[Zach Lowe]

The core guys. I know Kat's had experience with Tibbs before maybe, so maybe this doesn't matter.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe that was Rocky from the get go. I'm sure it was like, no, no. But he's fine now. How do we know?

[Zach Lowe]

Anunoby like kind of just got there, you know, it's not like he's been there all five years with Tibbs. It's not like Towns has been there all five years with Tibbs or Hart has been there all five. He's been there a lot. McBridges just got there. It's not like they've all been there for like four years of just like, oh my God, another shoot around with Tibbs. Like, you know, it's not like they've been there that long.

[Bill Simmons]

Seemed a little, seemed a little gamey. That's why I flagged it for you in April when you, when you jerk backwards.

[Zach Lowe]

And I still like, they made the conference finals.

[Bill Simmons]

They did.

[Zach Lowe]

And the thing is, a lot of it has to come down to how do you view those first two games against Boston because they were before Tatum towards Achilles. They were about to go up 3:1, probably win that series. And you would think like, wow, what a feather in their cap that they're going to knock the defending champions out pretty honestly until that injury. Unless you think the first two games were more about Boston just were like 75% choke, 25% comeback and not 50, 50.

[Bill Simmons]

Can I give you 90? 10.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, whatever. I was trying to be nice to the Knicks.

[Bill Simmons]

I was on a Tech start about this two days ago because I was looking at the third and fourth quarter box scores from game one and getting mad all over again. The Celtics took, I think it was 34 shots in the second half and 27 of them were threes. They took 20, 20 shots in the third quarter with a 20 point lead at various points and 19 of them were threes. They took zero free throws. And the whole thing is like after watching what Indiana did to the Knicks, to think that the Celtics just walked the ball up and just jacked up threes and that was their offense. And what a giant favor they did for the Knicks in both of those games. And then the Knicks hung around, they grabbed the game much like Indiana today. But to me that was a Boston just an absolute strategy collapse where you're just like. It was the basically the opposite of OKC tonight where OKC is like, actually we're going to change our lineup. We think maybe this will be a little better for us. Boston was like, we do this. This is all we do. We don't care who we're playing. This is our formula. We're never going to deviate from it. And then you see how easy it was to just push the ball on the Knicks. Get Towns or Brunson in any sort of switch, get keep running run after run after made baskets. Just keep pushing the pace on them. And they didn't do any of it. And they had the same kind of players. Indiana has better versions of them in some cases. Anyway. I have the. I have what's Utah up to? Written down as a topic.

[Zach Lowe]

We're talking about the utah jazz at 12:15am Eastern standard.

[Bill Simmons]

Last one, because I haven't seen you since they hired Austin. Ainge gave him the car keys. Then Austin Ange is like, we're not going to be tanking anymore. That got my attention. I have my eye on them. Everybody's telling me to have my eye on Toronto. That's been the new catchy thing to say this month of watch out for Toronto.

[Zach Lowe]

Nobody loves that more than the Raptors. They're in the discourse, baby.

[Bill Simmons]

Watch out for Toronto. It's like, what am I watching out for? Well, what are they going to do? They're going to trade Scotty Barnes and other picks for Giannis. Milwaukee's not doing that. What are they going to do? They're not going to.

[Zach Lowe]

Why are you disqualifying that for Milwaukee?

[Bill Simmons]

I'm not doing that. I'm keeping Giannis. If it's Scotty Barnes and some picks for Giannis. Thanks. I'm going to keep Giannis. Thanks. Anyway, I'll keep one of the 20 best players ever at age 30. Thank you.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, so you want to talk about the Utah Jazz? Should we do a deep dive on Keonte George? Like what do we, what are we doing here?

[Bill Simmons]

I'm just wondering are they going to get frisky over the next three weeks? Do I have to keep my eye on this?

[Zach Lowe]

So you're. You love this idea of. You love this idea of marketing for Paul George at number three. That's like your, that's like your little pet. That's like a little pet over here. You love that one.

[Bill Simmons]

I have it in a cage. I feed it some cage free eggs in some, some spring water and I try to, try to grow it. I don't even know if that makes sense for Philly, but I just wonder if Philly's looking at trades like that with the third pick.

[Zach Lowe]

I hate that trade for everybody involved.

[Bill Simmons]

I think I do, too. I just thought it was a fun trade. I don't know. What are you doing with marketing and Joel Embiid together? I don't know what that is.

[Zach Lowe]

If you tell me I'm the Sixers, I know the Jazz, I can reroute Paul George somewhere else for something less damaging to my cap sheet for the next three years and I get the numbers free pick, then it starts to be somewhat interesting to me. But, like, marketing is pretty good and the Paul George contract is not so good. Although I think it'll get rehabbed in this year. I think we'll think differently of Paul George in about six.

[Bill Simmons]

Can I make the case for why I would think about this if I'm Utah, I wouldn't do it if I was Philly, but if I'm Utah and I have 2, 2 stabs at a top 5 pick in this draft, which I think has a real, especially the top five, has a chance there might be somebody really special. Edgecomb, Trey Johnson, Harper, like one of those guys ended up being a top 10 or 15 guy in the league, maybe two of them. Who knows? If I'm Utah, I get two swings at that apple. If I can trade, keep my fifth pick and trade into the top three. But I. That would not be the trade I did if I was Philly. If I would try to do three in Paul George, I would be shopping that around. Like, I would have offered that to Jaylen Brown. For Jaylen Brown right now.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, that's okay. So you're in the right age range then. Because for Philly, I'm sorry, but I have to make decisions at this level based on a timetable that is not Joel Embiid's timetable. That's why if I really like the guys that are available at 3 and those guys have studied the draft a thousand times more than I have, if they don't like those guys, it's a different conversation. If I like them as a steward of that franchise, I can no longer mortgage major pieces of our future for the idea that I can win a title with Joel Embiid, I just can't do it anymore.

[Bill Simmons]

I think you're right. I think that's the right. I think you have max game number three.

[Zach Lowe]

It's obvious.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, I just don't know if. I don't know if.

[Zach Lowe]

And so that's the thing about office.

[Bill Simmons]

Is wired that way, though.

[Zach Lowe]

So that's the thing about Utah and Frisky, that the Your little pet trade is at least the right idea of them being frisky. Because otherwise, like, what am I going to do? I'm going to go out and trade for Trey Young or something? Like, why is that interesting to me if I'm Utah? Like, what. Why am I cashing in chips when Austin says they're not tanking anymore? It's it. They don't have to tank to tank. Like, they could just play all the players that they have on their roster, maybe trade Sexton for a first or whatever. Whoever gets you a first out of the Sexton Collins Clarkson group. And just don't do what you did last year, where everyone has injuries that pop up mysteriously every third game or, like last 40 games or whatever. Just play your roster. The West. The west is so good that you'll finish 14th or 15th in the west anyway and you'll have organically tanked and everybody won't be so goddamn miserable anymore. That's all.

[Bill Simmons]

Especially Will Hardy. Well, that's hard, I think, guys, I'm not a drinker, but I'm. I'm going to be starting if we're going to suck again because I can't do this a third year.

[Zach Lowe]

But at least for Will Hardy's sake, he has leveraged their own misery into, like, I think he's been extended 15 times in the last. I think he's. I think he's contracted 2040 now.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, well, I think Utah is the fifth pick, and that might end up being a really good player. So maybe they're good. But Utah, Utah and Toronto, I think, are the two that people seem to be whispering about that. And then Atlanta, I think, is just interesting in general. I don't even know who would want Trey Young. San Antonio, I think, keeps two. At least that's. That's the word. But there's. There's been a lot of KD stuff this week, a lot of Katie, and that seemed like a possible home for him. I still feel like Towns for KD is in play, too.

[Zach Lowe]

I. By the way, one of my favorite things has been, like, how every time anyone says that Katie's almost a lock to get traded, it gets aggregated as if it's some big story. Like, Katie's getting traded, Katie's not. Katie's not going to be on the Suns next year. Like, we could. We could put that one to bed. Just wait to see what the trade is.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the stuff. The stuff that was this week about how Bradley Beal, they're stuck with him. They might have to buy him out. He's got two years left, I think at like 53 and 57. My guess is they're not going to buy him out anyway. We'll see what happens. We have plenty of time to talk about this. So we're going to be doing pods next week in the great state of Indianapolis after Naptown.

[Zach Lowe]

We're coming. Do people call it Naptown anymore?

[Bill Simmons]

Jalen Rose does. That was the first time I'd heard it.

[Zach Lowe]

That's good enough for me. You know, I just going to throw this out here. You would know this. You would not necessarily know this, but you would know how realistic of a question this is. I asked some of the Pacers people this when they were in New York, up 3:1 last week. It's a near and dear question to your heart and probably one that you've thought about and know the background of better than I do. Do we get a legend appearance in Indiana for a game for one of the home finals games?

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, if you want to get the crowd involved to bring the house down, I think it's a good idea. He lives in Indiana. Why wouldn't he?

[Zach Lowe]

Well, he's in good health. He lives in Florida a lot. I don't know where he is day to day right now, but I know he's got a place in somewhere in Florida.

[Bill Simmons]

If I'm the Pacers and it's one one heading into game three, I'm trotting out every Indiana legend I have for game three in there.

[Zach Lowe]

I've heard nobody bring this up yet. Like I when the Pacers went up three whatever in the conference finals, it was one of the first things that popped in my head. Are we going to get a Larry Legend appearance in Indiana if they make the finals? I was not given an answer.

[Bill Simmons]

My laptop battery's about to run out, so we have to go.

[Zach Lowe]

Sweet.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm sorry I brought up Utah. I didn't realize it was going to make you so angry.

[Zach Lowe]

I just. 12:30 in the morning, we just watched an incredible finals game. I still don't wait for an hour. I still don't really know what happened. I'm going to have to go back.

[Bill Simmons]

And what do you think? The line is on Fanduel for the series now.

[Zach Lowe]

I don't speak gambling, so you're going to have to tell me what The it was like minus 7, 700 before the series.

[Bill Simmons]

It sure was.

[Zach Lowe]

So I'm going to guess my totally uneducated gambling mind. I'm going to guess it's minus 375.

[Bill Simmons]

See, look at you. Minus 330. Okay, not bad. Favorite. Okay. See to winning five still in play. Zach low pleasure. Are you doing a little mini game two preview pod? Possibly.

[Zach Lowe]

I was. It was going to be a struggle if it was just Oklahoma city wins by 18. Now I'm doing a mini game two preview pod. We'll either tape it tomorrow night or Saturday morning. And because this is the joy of having two days off between games, you get to really sink your teeth into these things.

[Bill Simmons]

Keep it, keep, keep it going. Cause then you got Monday too. When we're, when we're in Indiana, I'm going to ask you to rank your favorite ringer, people you've potted with so far. I'm just going to force you to do it. It'll be great. Cause some team dissension a month in. Zach doing rankings. Yeah. Get the locker room rankled. Zach, low pleasure as always. Thanks to Gahao and Eduardo for helping us with the live stream. Thanks for everybody for checking in. What a game. We really lucked out. We'll see you next time. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Zach and Eduardo and Gahal as well for helping us make it and go live on YouTube. That was super fun. I'm going to be back on Sunday right after game two. We'll be doing this podcast with Rosillo and we're going to do it live on YouTube like we did game one. And you have the weekend to watch Working girl for the rewatch was that's coming on Monday. It's a great movie. Watch it with the whole family. It's a good one. Enjoy the weekend. I will see you on Sunday night. Must be 21 plus in President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + in President D.C. gambling problem. Call 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema. Org or call 800-32750 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York.