Luka’s Heater, Wemby’s Bid, and Stealth Winners of the NBA Season With Zach Lowe

Summary

The Bill Simmons Podcast | "Luka’s Heater, Wemby’s Bid, and Stealth Winners of the NBA Season"

Host: Bill Simmons (A)
Guest: Zach Lowe (B)
Date: March 23, 2026

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Episode Overview

Bill Simmons and Zach Lowe dive deep into the current NBA landscape, focusing on exceptional individual seasons from Luka Dončić and Victor Wembanyama (“Wemby”), MVP debates, the state of key teams like the Lakers, Nuggets, Spurs, Celtics, and more. They also discuss potential playoff matchups, stealth “winners” of the season, and end with bigger-picture conversations around expansion, tanking, and the direction of the league.

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Table of Contents

• Celtics Notes
• Luka Dončić's Heater & the Lakers’ Chemistry
• MVP Race: Luka, Wemby, SGA, Jokic
• Denver Nuggets’ Woes
• NBA Playoff Matchups & “How Do the Lakers Make the Finals?”
• San Antonio Spurs & Wemby: Is He the Best Player in the NBA?
• All-NBA Team Debates & Who Makes the Cut
• Stealth Winners of the NBA Season
• State of the League: Trades, Expansion, and Tanking

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Celtics Notes [02:14]

• Simmons briefly covers the Celtics' recent loss to Minnesota, noting worries about their offense since Tatum’s return.
  • “They are really trying to work him back. Does not look like the same offense … just doesn’t look as seamless as it did.” [02:14]
• Zach Lowe: Caution on overreacting. Recognizes expected up-and-downs with Tatum’s reintegration, but points out ball-dominant tendencies might be hurting flow.
  • “[Tatum’s] more straight line drives… It might be a while, and there’s going to be some ups and downs.” [03:09]
• Emphasis: Celtics must tidy up for the playoffs due to seeding implications.

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Luka Dončić's Heater & the Lakers’ Chemistry [04:03]

• Simmons and Lowe marvel at Luka’s post-All-Star break run and the Lakers' surprising chemistry.
  • “He’s up to 33.4 points a game… He has a real case now for number three MVP.” [04:03]
  • “This is crazy stuff that these four guys are doing.” — Lowe, on the elite level of Luka, SGA, Jokic, Wemby [06:46]
• Luka’s mood and energy are now palpable; his body language and “zip” have changed from earlier in the season.
  • “The word I’ve been using for the last three or four weeks is zip. He’s just got a new … It’s not as meandering.” — Lowe [09:01]
• Simmons credits post-deadline roster clarity ("after the trade deadline… this is your team now"), and LeBron’s buy-in as huge factors.
  • “LeBron just kind of buying into it. But the other thing is Luka kind of wears it on his sleeve… you can kind of feel what kind of mood he’s in.” [08:21]

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MVP Race: Luka, Wemby, SGA, Jokic [05:31]

• Rare moment: Four players (SGA, Wemby, Luka, Jokic) all putting up historically significant MVP-caliber years simultaneously.
  • “Off the top of my head … 87… Magic won, MJ finished second, Bird was third…” — Simmons [07:03]
• Simmons and Lowe both toy with advanced stats and “historicity” for Luka’s season (“only 16 guys ever have had a 34-point-per-game season”).
• Lowe and Simmons revisit the “Jordan territory” now occupied by SGA, in awe of the overall quality at the very top.

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Denver Nuggets’ Woes [17:43]

• Simmons presses on Denver’s late-game and defensive issues—loss of unpredictability, over-reliance on Jokic.
  • “I think they’ve gotten really predictable with their offense when and how it slows down and how Jokic-centric it is.” — Simmons [19:11]
• Lowe: Nuggets are at a low point, though still believe in their ceiling and aren’t ready to write them off.
  • “I would not want to play them if I were the Lakers…. We just need to step back a little bit and remember who we thought these teams were is still a little bit at least of who they are.” [21:46]

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NBA Playoff Matchups & “How Do the Lakers Make the Finals?” [23:56]

• Extensive scenario play: Lakers’ path depends on avoiding Denver in Round 1; Houston or Minnesota would be preferable matchups.
• Lowe: Not ready to pick Lakers over Minnesota; wants to see how Ant returns.
• Spurs as Lakers’ potential second-round opponent—much respect for experience vs. youth.
  • “There is a scenario for them to beat the Spurs… get it back to San Antonio for Game 7. Young team at home, biggest game… Old veteran team, we’ve just seen versions of that game get weird.” — Simmons [26:25]
• OKC as the ultimate playoff threat; both hosts agree the Lakers would have little chance against them.

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San Antonio Spurs & Wemby: Best Player Discussion [31:42]

• Opening stat: Spurs are 25–5 in their last 30, 43–13 when Wemby plays.
• Zach Lowe: “There's a reasonable conversation to be had already. Is [Wemby] the best player in the NBA?” [31:42]
• Historical comparisons: Duncan’s ‘99, Bird’s ‘81, Kareem’s ‘71, Shaq’s ‘95, LeBron/Rose/Unseld young MVP seasons. Simmons calls Wemby's candidacy “rare fried air.”
• Why Wemby is unique:
  • Defensive impact is “most dominant I've ever seen”—impacts shot selection, play design, player psychology.
  • “There is no playing him out of the play. There is no avoiding him. He is impactful defensively no matter where he is.” — Lowe [36:22]
  • Simmons: Offensive gains catch up to his defense—he's now a 24-PPG scorer—and the case for MVP is legit.
• Key Quote:
  • “When the jump shot is falling at an average or above average rate, you just don't even know what we're supposed to do with this guy.” — Lowe [33:25]
• MVP Straw Poll: Both see Wemby as #2 or #1 on current ballots. Simmons actually voted him 1st in the last Ringer 100.
• Caveat: Playoff proof not yet attained—Shea and Jokic have “done it” under biggest pressure.

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All-NBA Team Discussion [59:51]

• Simmons and Lowe agree four All-NBA locks: SGA, Wemby, Luka, Jokic.
• The fifth spot is highly contentious, with injuries/play-time for Cade, Kawhi, Ant, and others impacting ballots.
• Candidates for all-teams debated: Donovan Mitchell, Jalen Johnson, Brunson, Murray, Booker, etc.
  • “Jalen Johnson: Second team in play for him now… Maybe third team lock is too strong, but he's been a strong third team guy for a while now.” — Lowe [61:26]

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Stealth Winners of the NBA Season [80:26]

A rapid-fire, engaging discussion of less-obvious “winners”:

• LaMelo Ball: “Love the way he’s playing… There’s real thoughtfulness in how he’s playing point guard… Just knows how to drive the car.” — Simmons [80:58]
• Jamal Murray: “Remember all the hand-wringing over his contract? Sensational season, stamped himself a winner.” — Lowe [84:18]
• Brandon Ingram: Reliability, late-game scoring, and redemption from a bad Team USA summer.
• Scotty Barnes/Brandon Ingram duo: “Both successful seasons, complement each other… but what’s the ceiling for Toronto?” — Lowe [86:05]
• Bones Hyland: “Back in,” “Winner” as a bench spark and vibes guy.
• Cheap Centers: A renaissance: Donovan Clingan (12 and 12 nightly, 3rd in rebounds and blocks), Moose (Hornets double-double big), and more.
• Nico Harrison: Simmons calls the Luka-for-AD trade “the worst trade anyone’s ever made” [90:26]
  • Lowe jokes about the hypothetical: “What if it’s all a long con where he’s been colluding with Mark Walter for years…”
• The 2025 rookie class: Potential 5-for-5 with no “Darkos” or outright busts; Ace Bailey is “the wild card, but I think Ace is going to be good.” [93:14]

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State of the League: Trades, Expansion, Tanking [95:38]

• Giannis Speculation:
  • Downsides to trading for aging bigs: “Shaq, Dwight, Davis… Should I be concerned about this?” — Simmons [67:33]
  • Both are skeptical large-market teams should risk everything on post-prime Giannis with durability questions. Would Presti or the Spurs go all-in? “I don’t think he would do it.” — Simmons on Presti [72:54]
• Adam Silver and Expansion:
  • Simmons: “Pushing this expansion thing when I don’t think it’s a slam dunk… Why are we adding two teams? I would first look at relocation.” [95:38]
  • Both worry adding Vegas and Seattle isn’t the solution to the NBA’s schedule and tanking problems, and the owners are motivated by expansion fees.
  • Lowe: “Every time [the NBA] tries to fix [tanking], they create a different version of problem A.”
• The “talent dilution” counterpoint: Lowe is unbothered, says there are enough players for 32 teams, but cautions about schedule/conference arrangements.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “There’s a reasonable conversation to be had already. Is [Wemby] the best player in the NBA? It’s a little… I’m a little shaken by saying it out loud.” — Zach Lowe [31:42]
• “This feels even better than Westbrook-Harden-LeBron MVP race from 2017… This is crazy stuff that these four guys are doing.” — Zach Lowe [06:46]
• “The word I’ve been using… is zip. He’s just got a new — not new, but like, he’s more straight line… it’s faster and more decisive, and it’s translated to defense.” —Zach Lowe on Luka’s resurgence [09:01]
• “It’s the worst trade anyone’s ever made.” — Simmons, on Dallas trading Luka (for Davis) [90:26]
• “The most dominant defensive player I’ve ever seen already… I don’t remember anything like this.” — Zach Lowe, on Wemby [33:04]
• “I don’t think expansion is good for the league… this is a money grab. It’s not good for the league.” — Simmons [97:24]
• “There’s no playing Wemby out of the play. There is no avoiding him. … He is impactful defensively no matter where he is.” — Lowe [36:22]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:14 Celtics Integration of Tatum — Offense struggles since return
• 04:03 Luka’s Post-All-Star Run, Lakers’ Chemistry
• 05:31 Four-horse MVP race reflections — historical context
• 17:43 State of the Nuggets: concerns, coaching, offense
• 23:56 Playoff Pathways & Scenarios for Lakers
• 31:42 Deep Dive: Wemby, Spurs, and “Best Player Alive” conversation
• 59:51 All-NBA Team discussion: locks, snubs, injury debates
• 80:26 Stealth Winners: LaMelo Ball, Murray, Ingram, Bones Hyland, rookie class, etc.
• 93:14 Rookie class appreciation and recalibration (Ace Bailey, Scoot concerns)
• 95:38 Expansion, league direction, Giannis trade speculation, concerns about tanking

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Tone & Style:
Lively, sharp, with a balance of analysis and sarcasm typical of Simmons and Lowe. Frequent referencing of historic precedents and league context; deep dives on player impact, followed by tongue-in-cheek debates and banter.

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This summary captures the most significant storylines, engaging tangents, and quotable basketball analysis and debates from Simmons and Lowe—serving fans who missed the show as a handy catch-up on where the league stands entering the home stretch.

Transcript

[A]

This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Those superior moments in the game, like dropping a buzzer beater at the last second, are worth it. It feels so good. And have you noticed all the smoothest plays are served ice cold, just like Michelob Ultra. That's why Michelob Ultra. It's one of the reasons it's the official beer partner of the NBA. Or maybe it's because it's a superior light beer with a smooth, refreshing taste and only 95 calories. Or maybe it's because they're giving fans a chance to win amazing prizes, including courtside seat tickets. Michelob Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Enter now at michelobultra.com courtside Michelob Ultra Courtside 2526 no purchase necessary. Open to US residence 21/plus begins on October 1, 2025 ends on June 30, 2026. Multiple entry periods. See official [e-mail] courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and prizes and details. It's the Bill Simmons Podcast. We are live on Netflix. Zach Lowe is here. Two hungover guys. I think I'm probably more hungover than you. The Celtics looked hungover. They weren't hungover in that Minnesota game, but they they had some travel stuff. We'll talk about that. We have a bunch of NBA stuff to talk about. Wanted to mention new rewatchables coming tomorrow. We did the Nice guys Great movie part of CR Month.

[B]

Great movie.

[A]

One more to go after this. We got LA Confidential so there you go. And you can listen to Zach's pod or watch it. It's basically Tuesdays and Thursdays during the season. We might experiment. Are you thinking about that Tuesday morning possible live?

[B]

Yeah, I think I need some piece of technology needs to arrive at my house to make that possible. From what I was told, we're doing that.

[A]

Okay, quickly on the Celtics. I don't want to lead the pod with them, but they got killed by Minnesota just now and heading into the game in the eight games that Tatum was back, they were 16th in offensive rating. And then today they stunk. They were 3 for 22 to start the fourth quarter in this game that they blew at home. And there's some travel stuff for it, I get it. But they are really trying to work him back. Does not look like the same offense we watched for the first 60 games and I'm going to be interested to see that the guards just don't have the ball as much and everything is running through Brown and Tatum now and they're kind of taking turns, and I know it's going to take some time, but it just doesn't look as seamless as it did. So that would be my one Celtics note if. I don't know if you have any extra.

[B]

Boy, one. One loss and we've got.

[A]

I went glass half empty. Glass half full is. They have a higher ceiling. I get it, but I'm just saying it's a little rocky lately with this offense.

[B]

Look, I mean, this was always why I was hesitant to just, you know, two games into the comeback, oh, they've reestablished themselves as favorites in the East. They do feel like, to me, the most coherent of the top four teams. But I. I've been saying all along like this, Tatum, it's. It's going to be a while, and there's going to be some up. There's going to be. It might not. There's just going to be ups and downs, and the last couple games have been downs. Although he had a really good start to the third quarter today, I agree with you. Like, today there was more Tatum dancing with the ball for 18 dribbles than there had been in previous games, and they bailed themselves out of a few of those possessions with open threes. Or Minnesota made a mistake leaving Pritchard open in the left corner on one of them when Tatum really had nowhere to go. But I did feel like, you know, this is part of the process, I guess, of him trying to feel his way back into the game is just, can I still. Can I do this? And I think they got away a little bit from what really makes them a great offensive team.

[A]

They're testing him. Like, there was a couple moments in the third quarter where he had McDaniels on him, who's just an absolute bitch to bring the ball up against, right? He's like top five guys you don't want to dribble against. And it seemed like Missoula was almost intentional. Like, Jason, you take this like, he wanted to see how he could handle going full court with the ball and trying to set the offense. So there's definitely some tester stuff. I really like when the offense runs through White and Pritchard a lot instead of just them standing on the sides. And they basically have 12 games here to fix it. The problem is the Knicks now are a half game back in that two, three thing where if you're the two seed, you. You know, although those teams are all jammed together, but, you know, we don't know. We don't know. But if you're the three seed. You're playing the best. Whoever is like, basically riding out the best, which could be Atlanta, could be Orlando, I don't know, but. And then you don't have game seven against the Knicks in round two. So. So anyway, we want to talk about Luka and we want to talk about Wemby coming out of the gate. Little big picture stuff. And initially I said we were going to talk about Wemby, but, Luca, yet again, the Lakers win another one. They have this crazy road trip that they've lost two games that they just shouldn't have ever in a million years won. And they won. And the chemistry is great. There was golf photos of them today. I was thinking about this Luka moment. He's up to 33.4 points a game. I think he has a real case now for number three, MVP. Right. Him versus Jokic. 3A, 3B.

[B]

Would you say you're going to get. You're going to get. The entire country of Slovenia is going to bombard you with, like. That's insulting. Third to Luca, third behind Shay and Wembley.

[A]

We have Wemby second. Yeah, Wemby has to be second. I think right now with how good San Antonio's been.

[B]

I mean, this is. These four guys playing at this level right now. I do think we need to, like, take a moment to just pause from, like, the splitting hairs. Who should be third? Who's 3A, 3B. Like these. You've. You've mentioned the J word, Jordan, with Shea a couple of times in the last couple of weeks. In terms of the territory, he's reaching for guards. I mean, you can't say a more revered name in basketball. Jokic is Jokic. Just every season is crazy. Wemby, you said, was the best player that you had seen this entire season. I don't really even disagree with you. On his best nights defensively, it's like I don't even know that I've ever seen anything like this. And then, oh, by the way, Here comes Luka, averaging 33 a game and regularly hitting 40, 50, 60 the other night in Miami, carrying a lakers team who's 21 games over.500. And we know what, Luca, this is going to be a six straight first team, all NBA, I think.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or something like that. I mean, like these. I wonder if we went back and looked at when did we have four guys playing at this level? I mean, this is even better than The Westbrook Harden, LeBron MVP race from 2017. Kawhi. Whatever. This is crazy stuff that these four guys are doing.

[A]

Off the top of my head, I was going to say 87. Which magic won? MJ, I think, finished second. Bird was third. And I forget who was fourth, but maybe it was Akeem. Yeah, 90 was the other one where it had the. Was Magic, Barkley, somebody else. Awesome. And then Hakeem. And Hakeem, I think finished fourth and had like a crazy season. But yeah, it's pretty rare to have the four, which is why I wanted to lead with it because since the All Star, luka's at basically 35 a game. 8 and 8, first team all in base happening. If you talk about, like, big picture, 16 guys ever have had a 34 point a game season and he has a chance to do it right. The last guy that did it was Harden. Luka came really close. He was 33.86. Harden did it twice. And then you're just talking about the usual wilt, all those guys. What I like about it, though, he hit that rut during the middle of the season where I was like, this kind of sucks. And we're just. This was like all the stuff I didn't like about Harden ball, but none of the fun stuff with it. And it doesn't seem like the team is connected in any way. And we're just watching him just get mad at people and, you know, not play defense. And they. They just. Just didn't like the vibe. And now it feels like everybody has bought into what's happening with him. And I. This is. I've been on so many texts with Laker people, Luka fans, everybody. Like, do you think this is real? What do you think? What do you think's going on here? Um, the biggest difference to me, which I mentioned Thursday night, was LeBron just kind of buying into it. But the other thing is you can kind of. Luka kind of wears it on his sleeve. Don't you think when you watch him, you kind of feel what kind of mood he's in? I was trying to think what other players have been like that, where you can kind of tell as you're watching them what the vibe is. Most guys are pretty much consistent night after night in some way, right? With Luka, it's like, oh, he's in one of his good Luka stretches, but you can kind of see it when it's happening. Does that make sense?

[B]

Yeah, I mean. And is it real? Yeah, it's real. I know it's real because we've seen it before. This is why we all thought it was insane that the Mavericks like, willingly traded this guy because we've seen it. But like, all of the stuff you're talking about when they were in a rut, a little bit, all that was true. And I don't really even know what changed, but the word that I've been using for the last three or four weeks is zip. He's just got a new. Like to. Not new, but, like, it's not as meandering and just. He. He's more straight line drives where he's splitting double teams and like, just. It's faster and more decisive and it's translated to defense where he's getting like, steals, he's getting in passing lanes, he's taking charges. Like, he just looks. I almost wonder if this is just purely speculation, if. If there was like a minor injury that he got over or something, because he just is playing. He doesn't play fast, so to speak, but he is playing at a different speed, I think, in the last month. But, like, you can find them. There were people who actually wrote columns that were like, maybe Nico Harrison was. Was not totally wrong.

[A]

Yeah, I understand his thought process.

[B]

They should be furiously deleting those columns right now from. From the Wayback Machine.

[A]

I did have a theory on this, because this is basically since the All Star Game and the team has gelled in a different way and they really do seem like a team. It's after the trade deadline. I don't think that's a coincidence. And this has happened a few times with LeBron teams, but then especially with this team where they had all these expiring contracts. And I always think we underrate this as, you know, media members, people that watch the league, study it, try to figure out trends that those six weeks before the deadline when everybody's just in trade rumors constantly. And even like somebody like Austin Reaves, like Rich and Max are doing their pod and he's talking about, can they pay Austin Reaves? Could. Could they possibly trade him? And then people are like, why is he saying that? Is he trying to get that? And there was just all this soap opera stuff. And the trade deadline makes it go away. It's like, well, this is your team now. Luke Kennard's gonna be our shooter. Marcus Smart's gonna have to play. Deandre Ayton. It's up to you, buddy. We don't really have anybody else. You're gonna have to be the center, LeBron. You can passive aggressively do whatever you can. You're gonna be on the team till the rest of the year. Either buy in or don't And I don't know. I. I just. We've seen this happen before where the All Star break is this before and after point. And people are like, I guess we're here. I guess this is our team and that's it.

[B]

And it. And it started to look different when LeBron was heard. And I don't know if that just clarified things for Luka and Reeves. Like, there was just a simplicity to. I can just go. And even if he is the third option, he's LeBron James and I know he's over there and I'm thinking about it sometimes. And then he came back and he's been the absolute perfect version of himself that this team needs. That he needs to be probably on any team that he's on. And he's had.

[A]

He's had a bounce. Did you see when he blocked? Somebody took a shot after the whistle in the Houston game, and LeBron went up and did the kg and blocked it so it wouldn't hit the rim.

[B]

I did.

[A]

Okay, you got your legs back. I think you're trying to show us.

[B]

I also saw the six dunks that he had in that game. They look. They look really good. And. And I. Ayton is like, we all like to make jokes about Aiden. Although I was. I was like the only one saying maybe this would work. Luca has started to trust him a little bit more. Just with, like, I'm just going to hand it to you early in the play, and I can't remember what game I was watching that where he would. They would blitz Luca, whatever team they were playing, and Ayton would short roll and Luca would throw these like. They were like baseball pop ups. They would. They traveled like three feet, but went way high up in there. Just. All right, this is the quickest way for me to get it to you, big guy. Go. And they would make plays out of it. It's just like, it's kind of humming right now.

[A]

I'm torn because as a basketball fan, I think this is great, because it's just. There's so many stories just out of this team and LeBron maybe being in the mix one more time. Luka maybe getting a shot at redemption against a couple different teams. The fact that we could have San Antonio, Louisiana in round two, like, there's all these, like, cool pieces of it. As somebody that can't stand the Lakers, this is a fucking nightmare. Every Laker fan I have in the Lakers.

[B]

Oh, you love it. You love. Come on.

[A]

All the Laker fans. And I was thinking about It. The only real great season they've had since basically 2010 was the bubble season where basically the last 10 games and all the playoff games happened in outer space, right? There were nobody at the games. There was no parade. You're just kind of watching on tv. Everyone's in Covid. Nobody can be around other people. And it was just this bizarre thing that happened over here. They haven't had, like, a really fun. The last really fun Lakers moment, I think, that you can think of during a season was when Kobe kept. Remember when Kobe was like, I've had it. I'm playing 48 minutes every single game. I've just. I've lost my mind. He was just like, if we're going down, I'm playing every minute. And he had that crazy run, and then he finally ended up getting hurt. But that was the last time. I remember every Laker fan in my life just constantly asking me, what do you think? What do you think? What do you think? Hmm.

[B]

Not even conference finals when they lost to Denver in 2023?

[A]

No, because I don't. I don't. Do you think people felt like they were going to win the title that year with the team they had?

[B]

No, I don't.

[A]

Deep down, I think it was more like, wow, I can't believe we made it. This is different. I think, because people are thinking we could. With Luka, we could beat anyone in a playoff series. Like, he might be the best player in the league for all we know what he's doing. We'll take our chances against sga, name the guy we'll go. So who knows?

[B]

And I don't think that's an irrational thought. He's proven it in the playoffs over and over again, including in series where his team, like Dallas, may not have won those series against the Clippers, but they were clearly the inferior team and they pushed the Clippers to the limit twice. And like, he's terrifying to face in the playoffs.

[A]

I got an interesting email from Spencer in Toronto who said, with the Lakers new ownership money, should they be investing in elite insider hecklers for key playoff road games for Luka? Plant people courtside and try to just have them engage Luka and make him mad. So then he takes it out on the other team and he said, conspiracy Bill. We'll have to do background checks on all these courtside fans who spur him on to scoring 62 in Oklahoma City in a game four. I don't think it's a bad idea. I support it.

[B]

It's an interesting sort of like the Wall is supposed to be the, like the meanest home crowd only version of a fan base. Would they have to instruct the Wall for those games? Please be polite to Luka. The Goga Patadze thing last night, like he crossed some kind of line and Luca went from, I'm going to score 60 points tonight too. I might murder you after the game if I see you. And like, they had teed him up. He got receive like, whatever Goga said. Go, go. Understate understood. I guess Luka was speaking Serbian and Goga understood.

[A]

It Bozzles apologizing after he inadvertently riled up Luka was one of the funniest moments of the season. Yeah, don't rile him up. So is that the.

[B]

Is that the best Chicago Bulls moment of the season? The Bouzelis apology? Is that the most notable thing that happened to the Chicago Bulls this season?

[A]

I think it's this. I think I got. I was going to read you this later. This email from Matt from Charlottesville, Virginia. Obama did a video with Anthony Edwards to promote the presidential library in Chicago because there's no one on the Bulls who could make a promotional video work. Is this the lowest it's ever gotten for the Bulls? It's a great point. Obama, they were like, you could have any Bull. And Obama's like, what about Anthony Edwards? He's on Minnesota. Can I use him instead? The presidential library's in Chicago. That's gotta be the low point, other than them not paying the luxury tax for the 90th straight year.

[B]

I'm glad we shoehorned the Bulls into this. Sorry, you were going somewhere else?

[A]

Well, oh, I was going. Playoff matchups.

[B]

Yes. Lakers.

[A]

So, I mean, it could be Minnesota. Could be Minnesota and Denver, the same record. The Lakers are going to be the third seed now, unless something crazy happens. They have a. Basically a two and a half game lead over everybody with 12 games left. Playing really well. They have some home games coming up. So they're going to be the three seed. They're going to play either Minnesota, Houston or Denver. I would say Denver would be the team they wouldn't want to play. Except do you want to do the what's wrong with Denver now or you want to. Want to shelve it for later? Like, what's. What's just your quick 30 seconds on what's the odor? I just don't like the scent in the car. Did you leave a tuna fish sandwich back here? What is that?

[B]

Today was an interesting step for them. I don't know if you saw that game today I did. Peyton Watson came back and looked good. Cam Johnson is. This was the kind of game that we thought Cam Johnson would have once a week for the Nuggets where he just goes, makes five threes and two quarters and you're like, all right, this is why, you know, runs a couple DHOs with Joker. The defense in the first half was abysmal and Portland was the. Denver had 75 points and was barely winning at halftime.

[A]

To a team that isn't exactly the 2017 warriors on, off.

[B]

Yeah, they're the, the gang that can't shoot straight. And it. There was just the same kind of miscommunications that have been plaguing the Nuggets for two, three months now. Point of attack defense not good enough. And then when they like have enough of their good defensive players on the court like two of Brown, Gordon and Watson and, and the offense that they can muster today, today kind of was not quite a warning shot. I mean, they ended up blowing out the blazers by 16, something like that, holding them to a good number in the second half. Yeah, it was a reminder, I think like this team is still kind of here and they've got a little bit of time to figure some things out. You know, they're not playing Valentunas, they're playing small ball when Jokic is on the bench. Murray's playing every minute again when Jokic is on the bench, like stuff is starting to happen. And yes, if I were the Lakers, I would not want to play Denver in the first round. I would, I would pick Denver to win that series. I don't care what the seeds are. Would you?

[A]

I'd want to see where Denver was in 12 games. But it would be hard for me not to pick Joker over the Lakers. But if it's the Denver team we just watched for the last three months that just doesn't play defense and falls apart in crunch time every game. I have some, some mild coaching questions with them after watching Adelman for a year. And it's nothing beyond this. I don't know how you, you blow this many games in the last couple minutes and in these overtimes. And it just has gotten to the point where I feel like they might lose anytime they're in this situation. I should feel the opposite because they have Jokic on their team. And I was thinking about it because I probably watched them the most other than the Celtics. I think they've gotten really predictable with their offense when and how it slows down and how Jokic centric it is. And I never felt like it was always that way. Now it, now it's just like they spread them out, they try to do something with Murray and they don't really get anyone else going and everybody else just kind of stands there and watches. And I know it was like that to some degree the last couple years, but now I just don't think Joker wants to play that way. I don't think he wants to score 30 to 35 a game. Like, I think he wants to be inclusive and set anyone else up. And I, I feel like they've lost their way a little bit at the end of these games. It's just Joker, Joker, Joker. Every time it's.

[B]

It's hard when he's so good and he can get a good shot anytime he wants.

[A]

I get it.

[B]

Today was a. Was 10 of 18, only took 18 shots, 22 points. It's actually one of the more interesting stats that I've been tracking the whole season is that his post touches are down to like their lowest level since he was a rookie or something. It's not anything dramatic, but the last time I checked it was like 10 post ups per 100 possessions, which had been 13, 14, 15 in his prime years.

[A]

And because it's more at the top of the cave now for him.

[B]

Could, could be that. It could be just Murray. Murray has had, I mean, I, you know, I did another glance at all NBA last week.

[A]

He's in there for me now.

[B]

I think he's got to be in there. He's just had a sensational season and maybe it's just more him and like the guys have been in and out of the lineup that he has a comfort zone with Gordon coming back. It's just such a breath of fresh air for them. Like he, he's just. Jokic knows where he is all the time. He knows where to be all the time. And so yeah, you're right that we kind of got to see it for the next couple of weeks as they get healthy and reintegrate all this stuff. I just, I would not want to play them if I were the Lakers. And we're catching. We're having this discussion at a low point for the Nuggets, even though they won today and a high point for the Lakers. And I think we just need to sort of step back a little bit and remember who we thought these teams were is still a little bit at least of who they are.

[A]

Can I root for this? I don't want them to play in round one. I think for, for pure basketball and for content, more fun. If, like, it's Lakers, Minnesota and Denver, Houston, something like that in round one. And then we have the both. Basically both teams can advance and we have the chance to get like, OKC versus Denver, San Antonio, Lakers. That would be my dream. Final four.

[B]

If you're the Lakers, you probably want Houston. Of all the options, right? The way Houston's offense has kind of been sputtering and they just blitzed them in two games.

[A]

I don't know what to make of Minnesota because, like, you watch them today. Randall sucked, and then I'm throwing up my hands.

[B]

I don't know. I don't know anymore.

[A]

Every time it's the Castanza, the Castanha, you're spotting dimes on the. On the floor. You're. You're eating onions. What's going on with you? They're that team this year. I don't know what to expect from them.

[B]

Even Chris Finch on the sidelines, just. I don't think he. He called those. He called those two timeouts when the Wolves were winning by like eight or 10 points in the fourth quarter. Like one bad possession. And he was just like, stop it. We're stopping it now. One Randall turnover.

[A]

Twelve.

[B]

That's it. Timeout. Another timeout. I'm not letting this go on anymore. I don't think he knows.

[A]

Well, let's.

[B]

They did beat. They did whoop the Lakers last year in the playoffs. And LeBron is still 41. Like, I. Who knows how much his body can take? I don't know.

[A]

He looks the freshest. He's looking. I don't know if there was an Italy trip. Let's walk through. How do the Wakers actually get to the Finals? As a thought exercise, I think step number one in the three, six, not having Denver there. I think Houston or Minnesota has to be the six seed. Cause I think they could beat either one of those teams. And I would. I would pick them to win either of those series. Would you?

[B]

I'm not ready to pick them over Minnesota yet. I want to see. I want. Minnesota's another team I want to watch for the next two weeks to see when Ant comes back, what condition is he in and can they get their shit together. If Ant's 100%. If Ant's 100%. We did see this movie last year, a version of it, and it did not go well for the Lakers. Now they're better and more cohesive right now, but I would not. I would. If Minnesota's healthy, I'd probably pick Minnesota.

[A]

Interesting. I Need more time. Well, I. So let's say Houston, right? La, Houston. Round one, Minnesota plays Denver.

[B]

Ugh.

[A]

And somehow Minnesota beats Denver. I'm just trying to think of like the perfect LA situation. San Antonio, Phoenix. I don't think San Antonio would lose to Phoenix. I do want to mention, and I know you've seen this too, Phoenix plays San Antonio really well. They junk it up with them. They do weird shit. They're really physical with Wemby. Booker is whatever, for whatever is uncomfortable against the Spurs. And I do think that wouldn't be like a layup of a series as well as San Antonio's playing, um, and then Lakers. San Antonio would just have to be a classic. You guys were probably better, but you weren't ready yet. We just had too much experience for you series. Even Ayton has experience. Ayton was in the finals. You know, Luka. Luka's been in the finals. LeBron's been in nine finals, eight finals. I don't remember.

[B]

It's a lot of finals.

[A]

And it's just your. Oh, we thought San Antonio was going to win, but this is a great learning experience for them. And then they would just have to hope somebody took out okc, because I don't think there's a chance in hell that the Lakers would ever beat okc. That's the one I'm just not accepting.

[B]

Well, the big development of the week in the NBA is going to be Jalen Williams coming back tomorrow. Because I think from what I've heard that they've really slow played this to the max because once the prospect of a historic season went away for them, Oklahoma City just pivoted to. All we care about is winning the championship. And he was starting, you know, he. Early on it was the wrist and he wasn't shooting well and he didn't look like himself. Then that started to sort itself out. Then hamstring number one happened, comes back, has two good games. The hamstring number two, the same hamstring, but again happens if he looks like Jalen Williams, I just. It's hard to see anybody beating them in a best of seven series. Lakers, spurs would be a lot of fun. It's the series where you look at the teams on paper going into the series and you're like, this is a wipeout. Like, there's just no. It's really hard to make a case that the Lakers would win the series. But they have Luca and all of those series, like Lakers going to San Antonio and win game one. Luka has 48 points and makes a three with a minute left to put them away. The whole thing feels different at that point. Man, I would definitely pick the Spurs. I assume you would too. I would, I would. I just trust their depth and they're

[A]

ethically there is a scenario for them to beat the Spurs. So think about it. To go four you have to go four and three in a series. Two crazy Luca games. There's two wins. The one game where they have like the 50 to 15 free throw advantage and everyone on San Antonio fouls out and then conspiracy Bill has to make an appearance the next morning. Like that game's probably built in and we somehow get it back to San Antonio for Game 7. Young team at home, biggest game. A lot of em probably all of them have ever played in and the old veteran team and we've just seen versions of that game get weird and I think the Lakers just need to get. They would have to get to that game a game seven in San Antonio. Let's put the young team to the fire and see how they feel. And that would be the scenario. I don't think they could beat them in six. San Antonio's too good.

[B]

The one stat that I would track for the Lakers is turnover rate because that's been part of the secret sauce of Lucas teams is he is not. He's a very low turnover player. His teams do not turn it over a lot because of how Luca centric the offense is. Yeah. And for a lot of this season they've kind of lost that plank of their offense and they're starting to get it back when they just. It's almost Bostony when they take care of the ball and just get a shot or a. A free throw in every possession. When you have that guy orchestrating it all it's. It's tough to deal with. It's tough to stop. When they start to lose the turnovers a little bit it gets. They become more beatable but yet they're look, they're scary. Luke is scary.

[A]

Seven guys, maybe six and a half. What's weird is they probably could have added at least one more guy at the trade deadline and just basically punted on it. Like they could have done a future first or even some seconds somebody like Gaffer. They could have turned Vanderbilt into somebody else but they kind of canard was the only thing they did.

[B]

Who's by the way amazing for the including the game winner last night but

[A]

it looks like seven guys. I don't know what we're going to get from Rui with he's already seems like he's banged up.

[B]

But I was actually going to ask you about the Lakers because I think the spurs are not a super deep team but everyone that plays is really good and really athletic and pretty young. And the Lakers, it's Rui Laravia. Canard Hayes is basically the bench.

[A]

That's literally the bench.

[B]

And I don't. Well and like Vanderbilt will get tossed in there for two weeks and then JJ will get tired of his inability to shoot and he'll be gone. I just, it's, it's a bench of guys that have lost coaches trust in the playoffs like multiple times and that except for Laravia who has very little playoff experience. And that makes me a little bit nervous.

[A]

The funny thing about Ayton who I I'm still, I've still given up on. I'm not changing my stance but at least he's been in big games and teams have had success with him in April and maybe right. It's not like you're throwing somebody out there who's never been successful ever as a professional basketball player. Like he did win playoff series. He was on really good teams and it is lurking in there, which is the frustrating, tantalizing thing about him. And whatever version we're getting of him lately is a little closer to that 21 version. Well, and he, I'll defend the 21 version.

[B]

He weirdly plays Jokic like pretty well

[A]

to the point that he's pretty comfortable.

[B]

Jokic, like did the jersey swap with him was like trying like you're, you're, you're, you're you and me, man. Like we're peers. And Aiden was like, oh, okay.

[A]

Well, thank you. We got to take a break and then we're going to do a deep dive on wemby. This episode of the Bill Simmons podcast is presented by Sam's Club. It is that time of the year when you just got to get in your car and go somewhere. I've done that plenty of times in my life. Nowhere gets you ready to go quite like Sam's Club. Snacks, the gear, super low prices on gas. They got a bunch of stuff that keep you and the whole crew rolling. And here's what you gotta do. You gotta join the club of [e-mail] yesend. You must be 18 years or older to purchase membership. A membership is subject to qualifications. Visit samsclub.com yesend for details. This episode is brought to you by Audi. The official car of my son. Yeah, we all know the feeling. A change of plans A new opportunity. Instead of overthinking, what if he just said yes? With the all new Audi Q3? The answer is easy. It's made for the yes life. With the power and room to handle whatever pops up. Yes to adventure, yes to right now. Because saying yes without hesitation, that's the real luxury. The all new Audi Q3 made for the yes life. Learn more at audi USA. Com all right, we're going to do a little deep dive on San Antonio and Wemby. I said on my podcast on Tuesday that Wemby and I'd seen all the players was the best guy I saw in person this year. You the Spock. The Spock of my life. Zach Lowe didn't totally blink when I said it because it feels like you've been circling the same turf. So they're 25 and 5 in their last 31st and net. It's a 30 game sample size. They're 21 and 1 in Wemby's last 22 games. Seems relevant. They're 43 and 13 when he plays. And you tell the audience what you texted me this week about Wemby, about

[B]

what we should do, just this is his third year and you know, there's a reasonable conversation to be had already. Is he the best player in the NBA? I, it's, it's a by. I'm a little shaken by saying it out loud. And so I started to think like, who are the youngest or who was soonest earliest into their careers to be considered possibly the best player in the NBA? And he'd be just about one of the young. I mean, I went through like when did LeBron first finish top three in MVP? When did Kareem, I mean Kareem walks into the league already at 22 because he played in college and all that. MVP immediately. Duncan was first team all NBA his first season. I think he finished third in MVP voting. You know, Shaq was top three MVP by his third season. So it's like not. Jordan was top three MVP by his third Season. So it's not unprecedented, but something about this, I don't know if it's that he's so, he's so young. What is he still just 21?

[A]

He's 22 now.

[B]

20, just turned 22. It's so young. And last season was like a half season for him because of the blood clot stuff. But I think Shay, I put Shea number one in Ringer 100. I just the benefit that a doubt still goes to this super guard who's shooting 55% from the floor and is a very good defensive player for his position. But I do every time I watch the spurs and it's every time he has a good jump shooting game because when the jump shot is falling at an average or above average rate, you're just like, I don't know, I don't even know what we're supposed to do with this guy because the defensive impact is. I just think, I don't know that any statistical system can quantify what he's doing on every single possession defensively. And it's not like we all joke about the shots that aren't taken. The nope, the nopes, like, nope, I'm going to u turn right out of here. It even just goes beyond that. It's how teams set up their offense. It's what they even set out to try to accomplish at the start of every possession. Everything is different when he's on the floor. And I don't even know how to measure that because he's the most dominant defensive player I've ever seen already. And I, you know, I'm not that old but I've seen Garnett and Olajuwon and Kawhi and kg. I mean, I already said KG but like, you know, all, all the guys post like 70s and I don't, I don't remember anything like this.

[A]

The only one I can remember over the course of history, the way people talked about it was Russell, that there was just no way to quantify what he was doing and they didn't even keep track of blocks back then. That was my thought when I was there for that Clipper game Monday. It's so much easier to quantify an offensive impact and what Luka's doing right now. We have all these different stats or what Shay is doing right now and our brains kind of cause the fantasy basketball aspect of it, we, we tend to overrate the offense compared to the defense if both are historically unbelievable. I just think you make the case just what he's doing alone on defense is at least equal to what Shay and Luka and Joker are doing on offense. There's two sides of the court. Everything he's doing on that end has to be like, I would say around as impactful. But then you throw in what he's doing offensively where he's basically 24 a game now. And I think that's the case. And you mentioned about the think agains or I would call them the rethinks. There's no way to keep track of this statistically. But you can see these guys in real time who've been playing basketball their whole life, who have been doing the same moves and the same rhythms, the same things over and over again that in real time over the course of a second are like, oh shit, I can't do that. And they just have to ad lib audible. And then the offense completely falls apart for three seconds as they kind of figure out a plan B. And he just does this the entire game. And there we have off, we have defensive ratings, right? You could do opposing field goal percentage, you could do field goal percentage at the rim. There's these stats that can kind of tell the story. I don't know how you measure somebody changing their mind 30 times in a game, which is what he's doing now.

[B]

So the counter argument to what you said, because I remember making an argument not quite like this when I voted Kawhi MVP in 2017. I leaned into the there are two sides of the ball and he's maybe not as impactful as Harden is offensively, but he's averaging 26, 27 a game, whatever it was. But he is the best defensive player in the league. And I remember saying at the time, like it's not 100% equal because a great offensive player can have the ball every single possession on offense and control the whole game. And a great defensive player can be just out of the play randomly a third of the time or actively avoided a third of the time. And I think Wemby is the exception to this. I just think there's no playing him out of the play. There is no avoiding him. He is impactful defensively no matter where he is. And the rethinks, you can see that. I don't know how you can see it, I don't know how you quantify it, but you can see it. I just think it goes even beyond that. I think the entire thought process of every offensive possession by the starting when you inbound the basketball or get a defensive rebound is just different when he's on the floor and when he's off the floor, there's a freedom, a certainty, a confidence that our entire playbook is now open. Whereas that's not the case with Wemby. And I just think he's the exception to the. Well, defense can't be half the game on an individual level because a defender can't impact it the same way like a ball dominant offense player can. I think he's massively impactful every single second on defense, no matter where he is, no matter where you try to hide his guy. No matter what you do, he's there and he's in your head.

[A]

Yeah, you can't compare it to a kawhi. Cause kawhi is basically guarding one guy or switching. This is like, this is a two and a half hour impact. Even though he's playing 32, 33 minutes a game, there's a few different things. Like Garland was testing him at the game I went to on Monday night. And there was a couple times where he went to. He drove into the paint and he had his little ten foot kind of moon ball jump shot. He shoots. But because of Wemby, you have to really moonball it. Right. So it's not a moonball. Now I'm basically like, I'm in a carnival trying to make it in one of those rims that's shorter than the basketball. All right, so if he misses that, Wemby didn't block it. But Garland missed a shot because Wemby's 76 and had his hand up. We don't really, I don't know how we keep track of that. The three point shooting he affects, I don't know, seven, eight a game, it seems like where he's just kind of out with his hands up and you could see the guy and then everything around the rim. Guys just don't want to be embarrassed by him because they know if you challenge him. So you were talking about the historical stuff, and I think it's really hard to. I basically looked at two different things, 22 and under seasons. So the best seasons by guys 22 years old or younger than that. And then I looked at year two players because I thought that was the best parallel. Cause like, just like it could go back in history with guys coming out of college, you know, like, Kareem was in college four years, Duncan was in college four years. It's not fair to say, like, all right, I can. I looked at rookie seasons. With Wemby's year three, I think it's. But year two is like, all right, my feet, I got my feet wet. Now I'm ready to kind of dominate, which is where Wemby is in. But the 22 and under seasons, Duncan's the best one. Duncan, the 99, the strike season, which you mentioned, Finals MVP, they win the title. And I think at the end of the season, he's the best player in the league. I think that's the consensus is he was the best start to finish player that we watched in 1999. Now he finished third in MVP. And I went back and I really deep dove that. And it's not a great outcome. Karl Malone wins it. I think Duncan's team had a better record. Duncan's stats are the same. I think Duncan was a better defensive player at that point, but they just, they gave it to the old guy and that, you know, we didn't have the same stats we had back then. So regardless, he's won Magic, won Finals MVP at age 20. And then he won a title and was second all NBA in 82. Kobe won two in a row title second all NBA at 21 and 22. And Shaq 95, finals second place MVP.

[B]

That's his third season, I think, right? Is that a second season or third season?

[A]

That's his third season. But he was 22. So good parallel to Wemby. And then there's some others, like you mentioned LeBron a couple times. Derrick Rose won the MVP when he was 22. So did Wes Unseled. But what's at stake for Wemby here is has a chance to win the mvp. I don't think he will, but he'll finish top two and has a chance to win the title, which is rare fried air. And then you talk about the best year two players. So I know this is a goofy one, but only, only three year two guys won the title that were first team all NBA, which was 99 Duncan, 81 Bird and 71 Kareem. And I. I'm only mentioning that because I think that's the territory he's in. And it feels weird to have all these names from the first 80 years of the league and be like, holy shit, those are the best names we have. But I do think that's what we're watching. And that's why I wanted to talk about it. Because, you know, 71 Kareem was the MVP. He was the finals MVP. That Milwaukee team was incredible. But he had also had four years of college. You know, he's older. He was a more established identity than Wemby is this Wemby thing we were hoping would happen. And it's kind of happening in real time. And it's happening over the last three months, I feel like, for real. And you could just feel it with that team where they're like, we have the best guy. But then you look at OKC and they're like, we have the best guy. And the Lakers feel that way and Denver feels that way. So to your earlier point, we have four teams right now with a chance to at least be in the Finals. That all feel like they have the best guy, and I think they'll have a case.

[B]

There's no question that it is happening, that the names that you're comparing them to are apt. We all are smart enough to understand that all of those comparisons are contingent to longevity and titles, and we all get that. But that's what we're watching, right? That's the parallel track that he's on with those same players at those same ages in this level that he's reaching, where you can plausibly say he has a true shooting percentage of 62%. Jokic is 68. Shai is 67, and he might still be the best player in the league because the defensive impact is that stark. The other reason we know that it's happening is that The spurs are 53 and 18. Like, this is a real fucking team. It's not like, oh, yeah, the spurs there. It's going to be them or Phoenix for the sixth seed. What a great story. They're 53 and 18 with Wemby on the floor. 120 points per 100 possessions. And here's the kicker. 103.5 allowed.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

The number one defense. 103.5. The number one defense in the NBA is Oklahoma City at 106. And they're almost three points ahead of number two, which is Detroit at 109. Wemby is at 103.5 for the spurs with Wemby at our 103.5. And it's just like. Yeah, I mean, you could. If you argue right now, I'm ready to stamp it. He's the best player in the league. I would still. I think Shea has the throne right now, and Jokic is right next to the throne or one or the other. But they're all. It's. It's a three to four person race right now.

[A]

Yeah. I guess we could have different adjectives. I think Shay has the right to still be the best player in the league since he's the reigning finals MVP and he's going to win the MVP again. They're going to win. I think maybe you could say Wembley is the most impactful that he.

[B]

He's. I think we're just playing with language like, someone's got to be the best. Right.

[A]

That's why when I said Wemby was the best player I saw in person this year, I was like, I kind of can't believe that's coming out of my mouth. But I just kind of know what I saw. But, you know, there's still a level to this in the playoffs. So you could say he's been. Maybe he's the best regular season player ever. You want to put it. But we. Shay has done it in the playoffs, so is Joker. Luka has done it at least until the finals in 24. And Wemby has not been in that situation before.

[B]

The only. So. So here I'm So you would have him second MVP right now.

[A]

I voted for him first in Ringer 100 in our last poll.

[B]

How'd it feel when you typed it in? How. How did it feel?

[A]

I texted it to Varier and I was like, I have a doozy coming and I'm not doing it for content or just because it's a bit like, I really think I feel this way. And he just said he respected it. I don't know if he thought I was crazy or if I'd been drinking, but honestly, you could have flipped him either way. What was interesting was Joker had been at the top for a couple years, I think, since maybe 2023, and he got nudged down. And you could even argue what Luca's been doing. He's kind of risen to. To Joker's equal lately. Lately. So even that's kind of a thing

[B]

lately is the key. You can't wipe. You can't wipe away the period that you described as a rut from earlier in the season when his numbers were still outrageous. But something. You could see it, something with the team and the way he was playing was a little bit off. You can't wipe that away. This is going to be one of those years where, like that 2017 MVP race, like some of the 1991 you mentioned earlier, you know, some years, four and five on the ballot, you're like, I don't know, maybe Jalen Brunson. Sure, throw Jalen Brunson. Whatever. And then some years, you're like, I have to say, yeah, like that. And then other years, like 2017 and 1990, you're like, I have to write this guy's name in the fourth spot. Like, this is. This is obscene. I have to write LeBron James number four. Or it's like that. Can we just not even do this? I feel ashamed of myself for doing this, but someone has to be fourth.

[A]

I looked up the 91 bulls because that would be. If you think the spurs can actually lay it down and actually win the title this year, the 91 Bulls would probably be the comparison. Young team kind of took off second half of the year. So they started out 30 and 14. And they finished 31 and 7. They won 61 games. They finished first in net rating, which I think is attainable for San Antonio, the way it's going. And in their version, they had mj, who was the best player in the world, but we still had the magic. And, you know, there were other people, and it's like, sure, he's the best individual player, but is he the best player? And we were doing all that stupid sports talk stuff, and then he laid the smackdown. So that would be the parallel. I guess the bigger point to me is, is it, like, legitimately conceivable that the spurs will win four rounds and Wemby will be the finals MVP holding up the trophy? And I think it's conceivable, and I wouldn't have said that two months ago, even when they were. When they were going toe to toe with OKC in December, it's like, wow, we have a rivalry now. I didn't think they could win four straight playoff rounds, and now I think they could.

[B]

I said it on Christmas. Goldsberry asked me point blank on my show, what do you think the ceiling is for this team? And I said, I think they can win the title. I think they can win the title. I don't. The experience question is. Is a thing. It will manifest itself at some point in some moment, in some game. I just. If you tell me the re. If you articulate, like, why can't they win the title other than experience, like, which is a real thing, but, like, what is actually. What is an external obstacle that can prevent them from winning the title? I think the list is the Thunder. I think they can beat anybody. Now, that's not saying I'm going to pick them over Denver for sure, because I have that much respect for the Nuggets, but, I mean, who can't they beat? And the only team that you could like, that team's a, like, a pretty big favorite is the Thunder. And they beat them four out of five times, asterisks on a couple of them. But the first three were like, ooh, ooh, something uncomfortable is happening here.

[A]

I liked how the Celtics played them before Jalen got thrown out. And I think that's the hyped, by

[B]

the way, who, what ref made that decision? That was awful. It's old news, but it was awful.

[A]

I think that's the type of team, though, with, like, big wings that can just keep attacking, because if you're going to ding the spurs on anything, they're probably a little smaller than Wemby. And maybe it's a team with size, which is why OKC is such an interesting matchup for them. But the fact that they played OKC so well, I think really matters with this. That's a team we saw actually affect okc. We haven't really seen anyone else do that. And they're going to feel like that seeing them in person on Monday. The thing I noticed is that they're still pretty young team offensively. They still just lapsed into like threes and they don't like. Like kind of what Jalen does with the Celtics this year, where it's like this. Our offense is going a little sideways. I'm just going to go to the basket. I'm just going to get contact, try to get to the line. They don't really have a guy like that. And it's just a lot of jump shots, which might work for four rounds, but that was the one. It feels like they could be up 17 and they can hit a little cold stretch and you can actually come back on them, especially when Wemby's on the bench. That would be my only big nitpick other than I. The other thing that's going to happen, and we haven't talked about this. I think teams are going to be brutal with Wemby, and you've already seen it during this season. Teams are going to be really, really physical with them. They're going to bang him, they're going to knock him down, they're going to try to hit him hard on dunks. They're just going to try to really, really wear him down. Because he's seven foot six. I think he might be seven seven.

[B]

Let's keep going. Let's say eight feet.

[A]

I think he might. I think He's a legit 7 7. Personally, he's 2, but he. He does fall a lot. And I asked some people who know him about this and they said he actually practices falling. So I was right that he's. He's kind. It's almost like a gymnast. Like he learns how to. He falls in sections, but somehow learns how to not get hurt. But I just think teams. And I don't know, what do you think is the Western team that would be like, we're fucking this guy up for two weeks.

[B]

Well, I mean, the Thunder fuck everyone up. I mean, that's. They were. They. And. And they're extremely physical and they do it very well. I mean, if the Rockets had Adams and I think they would. I think they would still give it a run. Minnesota. Minnesota can Be a nasty, physical team.

[A]

Minnesota could do it. Yeah.

[B]

And by the way, you're seeing it with Jokic, too. I mean, in the last two or three weeks, there's been a. Not a sea change because teams dabbled in it, but most teams are now guarding Jokic with a wing or a power forward and putting their center somewhere else. And just having like today it was. Tomani Kamara guarded Jokic for half the game and Toronto. Scotty Barnes guarded Jokic the whole game. And Purdle was elsewhere and just being like, front him, hit him, get on, get in his waist and his legs. Just beat the hell out of him. Try to stall for time. And it's just.

[A]

That's been.

[B]

It's been interesting to. I mean, Denver's familiar with that scheme, but it's been thrown at them more often in the last three weeks than at any period I can remember other than like a. A playoff series.

[A]

The Oklahoma City. The Villains getting in a fight yesterday in Washington, picking on a young Washington team.

[B]

Didn't see that one coming. But the Champagne brothers are not to be trifled with. And when anyone, Whenever someone gets mushed in the face, it's. It's on. Like, it's on. Did you see the kid in the front row who was continuing to film felt well and his facial expression turned from like. Well, like joy. Like, oh, my God, this is so cool. To like, to like. Oh, horror to horror. Like, to like, these guys are big and strong and they're falling on me right now. It was a great, great theater.

[A]

It is funny because the announcer said that about the Champagne brother. They said that about the. The one that's on Washington, Justin. But I've heard that. I've heard that said about both of them. And there's. This should almost be like an all NBA team that we get to vote on. As you know, I've always wanted more teams than just all NBA. All rookie, all defense. I think we should have the. Not to be trifled with all NBA team. And it would be like both Champagne brothers would be on there.

[B]

The James Johnson All Stars.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. James Johnson all Stars. Just like, oh, no, don't do that to him. Because you could see it because. Cause the other J Dub, he's starting and he gives him a couple shoves and he gives him the third shove and Champagne's like, dude, are we gonna do this? Like, you could just tell he had a light in his eye, ready to go.

[B]

I honestly thought tonight somebody with Boston was going to lose it with Bones Highland because he was having a lot of fun out there. Pointing at people, pointing at Hugo. Yeah, that's you. You fouled me. I thought, I thought someone was going to deck him a little bit, but yeah. Wizards thunder. I just didn't see the wizard summoning the kind of spirit at this point in the season to actually get into an altercation.

[A]

Well, we're in. I tweeted about it today. We're in an absolute death death match where we have Washington Wizards with 16 straight losses and the Pacers with 16 straight losses and a half win. A half win lead. Fifteen wins for the Pacers, 16 for Washington, and it's just a matter who blinks first. The record is 28 for straight losses and neither team can get to 28. They would have to end the season on a 27 game losing streak.

[B]

But for Indiana, they don't play each other.

[A]

They don't play each other. For Indiana, the one is super important because that basically guarantees they get their pick, right? Cause the Clippers get it if it's 5, 6, 7, 8 or 9. So if Indiana's one, even if three teams passed them in the lottery, they would still get four. So I don't think they want to win again.

[B]

I mean, if you're one, you still have a 48% chance of picking fifth.

[A]

Is that true?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, wait. Four teams can jump you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, well, there goes that. Another classic Simmons moment.

[B]

You're most likely, according to Tankathon. I'm looking at it now. You're most likely.

[A]

I forgot that we had four. I thought it was three because Detroit has jumped.

[B]

Detroit has fallen from one to five before in Utah, I believe Utah last year fell one one to five.

[A]

Well, Utah ended up with Ace.

[B]

Ace is good.

[A]

Which. That was another topic I was. Hold on, hold on.

[B]

We're talking about.

[A]

Hold on to that.

[B]

The Wizards. We're talking about the Wizards. Can I just. This is a very Simmons soapbox to get on, but can I get on it for a second?

[A]

Sure. I've watched a couple push it toward you or no.

[B]

No. I've watched a couple of Wizards games in the last 10 days because they were playing teams that I wanted to see, including the Pistons. First game without Cade or first game since the collapse long. They've definitely entered the tanky stage where like I'm now, I don't like the way they're playing and I'm worried that this is going to set back the development of some of their players. Every shot Alex Sar takes, I'm like, I don't that like, what. Why is he allowed to just dribble around and take a 21 foot, like just inside the three point arc jumper, let alone that like these other centers are just running him over on the way to the rim to the tune of 83 points and 36 points. Trey Johnson.

[A]

Trey Johnson is fine.

[B]

Like, there are just a lot of possessions where I'm like, I, this is like, I, this is not good for anybody. It's not good. We've passed the point where like, oh, they're going to spread their wings and try new stuff. Like, this is just bad stuff that's happening.

[A]

I agree with you. I also don't love their guys. They have a lot of like assets that are fine but not like in Ringer 100. I think Trey might have been made. Trey and Sar might have been the only two. And I don't even know if Trey made it because we haven't. I guess we announced the list on Monday. But like, I like Utah's set of assets way more.

[B]

Right.

[A]

If you're just looking at like, which, which team's roster would you add there? Utah's like light years ahead of Minnesota for assets.

[B]

Washington.

[A]

I'm sorry, Washington. And then Indiana is another one that I just, I like the way they're set up way more. Brooklyn and Washington, I don't like the way they're set up. I don't really like the players they have. I don't think they're in good shape. And even if they get one of these, like Darren Peterson, you didn't watch nca, but Darren Peterson lost today. Kansas had a terrible, terrible loss.

[B]

I saw that. I saw the buzzer shut.

[A]

I really wish Bill Self was in the NBA so you could do the Zach deep dive on him because he's one of my least favorite college coaches. But he somehow managed to get a game losing layup.

[B]

Is UCLA still in the tournament?

[A]

UCLA is playing right now.

[B]

Who's the coach? Their coach who had this Cronin. I didn't like him. I didn't like, based on one press conference where I was like, who, who are you, man? Get off your high horse.

[A]

Well, he's, he's about to get knocked out, so you're not going to have to see him anymore. But the point is Peterson, whose high school tape was just better than his college, what I watched with college, I don't know how 100% healthy he was. He was good. But the kid on Arkansas, he knew nothing. And you just watched both of them and you're like, who should have a higher ceiling. And literally you were just watching college this year and that's it. You would think it was the kid from Arkansas acuff that is like, basically looks like he's going to be Kyrie. The point is, I don't debance, I think is going to go 1 and 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. I don't think there's any way to know who's going to be the best guy out of those things anyway. So we might have done all this tanking and whoever gets the 6 pick might end up with the best guy in the draft, which happens over and over again.

[B]

Are you shocked at Are you shocked every time your email box has medical update from the Washington Wizards Trey Young medical update subject line Anthony Davis medical update. I'm like, I'm almost impressed. I'm almost impressed with Anthony Davis. Like, Trey played a couple of games. Yeah, I'm almost impressed with Anthony Davis that they bother sending the email that A, they remember they've acquired him and B, that they even bother like this. Performative, like, yeah, we've done an update. He'll be reevaluated on the timetable.

[A]

TBD impingement is a big word this year. Yeah, well, nobody knows what it means.

[B]

They're impinging on my viewing habits. I have to watch a fucking basketball team.

[A]

We'll take a break for the pod. We'll keep going here on Netflix this episode is brought to you by State Farm Upsets buzzer beaters game changing plays what happens on the court keeps us on our toes, and life isn't any different. That's where State Farm comes in. With over 19,000 neighborhood agents for when you want to talk to a real person and easy to use digital tools, State Farm is there to help when facing the unpredictable. Because in life's uncertain moments, big or small, you need to know someone is ready to assist. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Price and eligibility vary by state.

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[A]

this episode is brought to you by Venmo. Supporting your team never gets old, but here's something new. You can now pay for your game day wings and rep your team at the same time. How? By getting your college colors on your card. Score more with the college branded Venmo debit card. Get up to 5% cash back with Venmo Stash. Sign up at venmo.com/college card. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank N.A. select Schools available Venmo Stash bundle terms and exclusions apply at venmo me stash terms max $100 cash back per month all NBA right now I think we have four locks. It's a cluster SGA, WEMBY, Luka, Jokic and then that fifth one is going to be. I don't know, is Cade going to get 65? Probably not. Is Kawhi going to get to 65? Probably not. And Ant said 58 and I don't know how many more games he's going to miss. It started to look like Jalen might actually be a first team all NBA guy.

[B]

I mean not if this loss kicks up such a panic level among Celtics nation as it was earlier in this podcast.

[A]

Just a tiny, tiny concern about the Afghans.

[B]

How come Donovan Mitchell gets no respect? What does the guy have to do?

[A]

He would be the other person. Okay, but what, but how, how would he get it over Jalen if Boston's a two seed and Cleveland's a four seed and they've had the same kind of injury luck in their teams? I don't know. And they have the same stats. Can I ask you a quick all NBA? I have a couple more off. This is Jalen Johnson is second team in play for him now.

[B]

Second team. It's really just going to depend on the 65 game stuff that you mentioned. Because if, if, if Cade is out there's a first team spot, I think that's going to open because I think I, I'm not sure he would have been the fifth first team guy on my ballot. He probably would have been, but it's I Think he will be for the

[A]

voting people would have been for me.

[B]

So that's open. And then you mentioned all these other guys who might not get to 65.

[A]

I might be out. Maxi. Maybe ant 50. 50.

[B]

But. But even, even if it's just Cade, one of the second team guys moves into first team. So there's multiple second team spots that are open. And like he's. He's probably a third team lock is too strong. But he's a. He's been a strong third team all NBA candidate for a while now.

[A]

They won 11 straight against nobody.

[B]

I mean they played a real team and they got smoked.

[A]

But my thing is I'm not voting for you for all NBA. If I have a lot of good candidates and you don't have a winning record, they're at least going to be a top six or seven seed.

[B]

So Kawhi is out for you if they're below 500. Cause they are right now.

[A]

Well, but I think if Kawhi comes back, they won't be below 500. Right. Well, he's been.

[B]

He's been playing lately. He's back.

[A]

No, but I'm saying if he plays the whole.

[B]

Oh, if he. If he finishes with 65.

[A]

Dope.

[B]

The above 500.

[A]

He finishes 65. They'll be over 500 would be my guess. Brunson's in there. Murray. I think we both have. Booker's an interesting one. Cause Booker just. If you're just going who are the best 15 players I saw this year? He's probably one of them. But I don't know if he's going to get the games. And then that's really it.

[B]

I had a rising falling segment on my pod last week. I'll read. Can I read you some of my risers and followers that are in this like third team universe? Yeah, I think Brunson has dropped a little bit, but I think he's still safe as an all NBA player. Cat rising a little bit last month. Duran. Is Duran a lock now?

[A]

I have. I just think there should be two pistons if they get the one seed. I feel good about it and I like having centers. I like to keep the tradition alive if possible.

[B]

Chet feels like he's about the same level as the case, but he'll get a lot of support. Maxi falling a little bit.

[A]

But. Yeah. Might not make. Might not make the limit anyway.

[B]

Might not make the limit. And the body of mercy is strong. Hmm. Well, I know who it is. Stefan Castle. That's your guy.

[A]

So 17. 7 and 5 are his stats right now and he's shooting 32% from 3.

[B]

Yeah, I want you to. I want, I'm just. I want to lay out because I want to hear it. I want to hear the. I want to hear the case

[A]

if they get the one seed. I think there's a real case for it, for having two spurs and having the guy who is, I think one of the best two way players in the league and somebody that night after night sets the tone for them. I think other teams hate playing him. I think other, other guards and perimeter players do not like seeing him ever. He's clutch, he plays well with Wemby, he's durable, he's reliable. He's gotten better as the year went along. And I just think he's a badass. I think in a lot of ways he reminds me of the Durant case for Detroit. There's a physicality and an intensity and an anger that he, in a good way, an anger that he plays with that I think sets the tone for that team. I think him and Keldon Johnson are weirdly like the emotional fulcrums of that team. How hard and just what a maniac Castle is. And then Keldon Johnson, the energy he has and what a leader he is for them when you combine it with all the other stuff. So that would be the case. And I really value the durability and reliability and I think he's. I've just, I've never seen him have like a game where he looked lost or he looked like a second year guy.

[B]

Oh God, no.

[A]

He just is locked in night after night after night. You can see it when you're at the game. You can just see how he handles warmups like everything. He's just like, he's got it. So that'd be the case. I wish the stats were. I wish he was at 20 points a game. Cause then it's like a layup. 17's a little low.

[B]

Yes. Statistically, if you're going to comp him with Duran. I mean, Duran has the big man advantage where he's. His field goal percentage is just going to be better. He's going to gobble up, up rebounds, which is going to juice all the advanced numbers. I get all that. But there it's, it's not. There's almost no comparison just statistically between the two. And the other thing is that his turnovers can get pretty high. He's averaging three a game, which is not bad, but he has some bad turnover games. But look, I mean, Steph Castle was the only player CR and I had in common on our Marcusol All Stars. Like, I could not love watching the guy play basketball anymore. I could not be any higher on him. And yeah, I mean, if you're the spurs, what, what level of playoff disaster would it take for you at this point to consider, to even consider trading one of Harper and Castle for Giannis? I mean, like, these guys are so good that I'm. If I'm the Spurs, I'm not touching any of this stuff going forward. No. No matter what happens in the playoffs.

[A]

Hanging up, I mean, Harper is.

[B]

Harper has been unbelievable. Thrust into the starting world the last couple of games. It's like, scary how good he looks.

[A]

You can't mess with having those three guys just as your foundation. You're good. Not messing with it. I can't. If we made a list of, like, how, first of all, they fit perfectly with the Wemby thing combined with Fox just looking into him and adding him to this in the prime of his career. Right. And I think he's actually a really good fit for what they have and what they need. And there's some crunch time stuff with him that I like, but I just, I wouldn't touch it. I have a question after question. What am I giving up for Giannis at this point? How many minor to semi. Minor leg injuries can a guy have and be in their early 30s with a lot of miles and games in them where I start to get worried somebody's trying to sell me a car that they rolled back the odometer round? I'm just asking.

[B]

It's. It's a fair question.

[A]

He can't play three straight weeks without getting hurt. Like at some point. Should I be concerned about this?

[B]

Yeah, we're not. Yeah, absolutely. The age, the jump shot and the injuries, not only now, but in like three of the last five playoff years are concerned.

[A]

Four.

[B]

Maybe it's four. The last five.

[A]

I don't know. I mean, it.

[B]

I can't remember off the top of my head. But, um, it's. It's. I mean, they'll. They will get a mother load for him because there will be. A mother load is strong. They will get. They will get a, A mother load for him. I'll stick with it. Uh, cause there will be a team.

[A]

I don't think they will.

[B]

So, like. Well, but it depends what your definition is. Like, I, I think the Heat would trade, like everything we thought they would trade at the trade deadline. I, I don't see any of that.

[A]

Why is this a good idea? I'm just the devil's advocate. Like, if we're in the front office and we're talking about this, like, we have a chance to get Giannis, like, cool.

[B]

He was. He's a top five NBA player.

[A]

Is he. He doesn't play well.

[B]

What? Okay, you're talking about him like he's embiid. He's not. This is not like that.

[A]

He's closer to Embiid than Jokic. He doesn't play. He gets hurt all the time. He's hurt all the time this season. I would be really scared about this if I was. If I was. You're so you're telling me if I'm Miami, I have to trade all of my assets and I have to sign you to a $280 million extension for four years. I've always. And I don't know if you can play.

[B]

I've always been the conservative guy about trading everything for stars. Like, I didn't love the Phoenix trade for Durant. When everyone was yelling at me like, ah, it's Kevin Durant. You gotta do it. You got nobody. It's Kevin Durant. Why are you overthinking this? I'm like, I don't know. He's 35 and I'm worried that he's gonna get hurt. And he has been hurt, but, you know, I mean, Giannis still has played 60, 70. He's played like 63 or more games in every season before this one. And then a lot of 70s and 80s earlier in his career like he's been. Now, the timing of the injuries hurt

[A]

in two playoffs has been bad.

[B]

Is that bad luck? Is that durability, like just body breaking down at the wrong time of year?

[A]

I have. So. But how about this? I'm going to throw this at you, too.

[B]

So no one should trade for him. You're just. It's a.

[A]

Stay away from not saying that. But DWight Howard in 2012, and I remember. I don't know if you were working at Grantland at that point, and he was going to be a free agent in 2013, and we were wondering, did this already peak his. Physically, he's having back issues now. He's played a lot of minutes, a lot of miles. What am I trading for exactly? Shaq in the mid-2000s, I think, is another one. You get these big guys when they've been in the league like 12, 13 years, and they played 800, 900 games and they've been in bunch of playoff games. And Davis is another example recently, right? Davis, 2012 draft and now he's gone off a cliff. His body is breaking down. I would just be. If I'm Miami trading everything I have and then having to sign up for four more years and not being 100% sure if I'm getting the Giannis from2022, much less 21, I'd be really nervous about it. I don't think I would do it. I would do it if I was Golden State and I'm like, look, we're riding step into the ground and this is our last chance. But I don't know if I would

[B]

do it if I was by so. So that's the thing. If you're talking about what Milwaukee is going to get if this ever happens and at this point it's definitely an if because like I just. Who the hell knows anymore? Like just throw gold if it Golden State, they're going to get all the picks from Golden State. They're going to get the four first round picks.

[A]

Do I feel good about that? If I'm a Warriors fan, do I think I have a chance to beat Golden State and San Antonio to be San Antonio okc Now you just made

[B]

the case though, you feel good about it because at least Steph has.

[A]

Oh, I'm saying I understood what. I understand why they would do it if I'm a Warriors fan. I don't know if I'd want them to do it. I would. I would actually think about zagging the other way. I know trading stuff is. I know, I get it. But you noticed what he said at his dad's thing.

[B]

What do you say?

[A]

I didn't see they retired number 30 for his dad and somebody asked him like, you know, would would you wear it if you came here and blah blah. And he was kind of didn't poo poo the question. It was interesting. You know, it's not like Charlotte's not arrow pointing up.

[B]

I wouldn't. Should Charlotte trade for Giannis and just go for everything next year?

[A]

Why am I so nervous about his health? Am I just in the minority? He's injured.

[B]

He's injured. He's played 36 games this year.

[A]

He's come back three times and gotten injured almost immediately.

[B]

But if you're Charlotte, you can't. I mean, you'd want to hang on to all three of your best young players. And so because you have two of them on rookie deals and you can fit Giannis. But what. You know what. So what am I getting if I'm Milwaukee, all the picks. Sure. What.

[A]

What else we should have done this three minutes earlier. This is another edition of what would Sam Presti do from Charlotte's favorite game show. Yeah, Sam Presti's running Charlotte and he has a chance to trade three unprotected firsts plus that Dallas pick they have that's like top two protected and they have one other good one. Right, Like Miami's pick or something.

[B]

Yeah, they have a couple good ones

[A]

and patch and put Miles Bridges in it because he would fit right in with that goofy Milwaukee team and maybe like, I don't know, the Grant Williams expiring and just go for it. I think Sam Presti would not do that. I think he would see like let's we, I love our foundation. Let's build from this. We can add there's a Hartenstein Caruso type of move we can make. Let's keep doubling down. Let's add role players around our foundation. I don't think he would do it. I thought it was telling that Houston and San Antonio wanted no part of a Giannis trade in February.

[B]

Well, and there's your other plot twist team.

[A]

Obviously Houston is. Houston's the desperation team.

[B]

Well and their season has gone awry a little bit. I mean every time you think it's gone awry, they go to Atlanta or Atlanta comes in, I think it blows out. They blow out the Hawks wherever the game was and they, they win some games where like, okay, like Durant's amazing, they're forceful. Ahmed Thompson tips in a game winning shot here and there, whatever it is. And so they haven't fallen that far in the standings. But, and now they're starting Reed shepherd, which is something you and I have been talking about for a long time. Feels like that could give some oxygen to their offense. But it does feel like it's, it's been rickety for. It's been a. I think I looked it up last week since in their last like I want to say 40 games, they have the number 22 offense in the NBA. Like so it's just not, it feels worse at the level that it needs to work for them to actually compete.

[A]

The fact that Tari Easton just wasn't good this year, I think combined with the fact that he. Teams just leave him open, he can't make a shot and then you have Thompson who can't shoot. So now I'm, Now I'm playing 3 on 5 basically with outside shooters. That's why Reed has to play. There's a lot of email questions percolating. I would say he's. If we did the. What do we have? We had. What did you call the team we had for the James Johnson All Stars.

[B]

James Johnson All Stars.

[A]

If we had the hot seat coach all stars for the 25, 26 season, I think IME would definitely, probably have the most votes. Ooh. Because the clogged toilet offense, which the Celtic fans remember from the 22 season, it's. It's definitely in full swing. Giannis. So basically it's Giannis. Desperation would be the honest trade, I think. Cause I don't think these teams like Charlotte, okc, San Antonio, Houston, I don't think Houston may be the only one. Like, would you do Shengoon and some of your picks for Giannis? Of course.

[B]

Minnesota was trying to line up everything to real. To make a real run at him at the trade deadline, which was a strange one. I mean, not that strange because it's Giannis, but like. But they were trying to line up all the, you know, all the deals that they would have to make to get the picks that the Bucks would want. That was interesting to me. It's notable considering that we don't know what to make of the Wolves right now.

[A]

Also notable that it sent their team into like an up and down. You couldn't figure them out night to night. I'm sure the fact that half the team was involved in all those trade rumors probably wasn't helping them.

[B]

There's also a Brooklyn, like, what do we even have here? But we have a lot of stuff

[A]

like a. Fuck it. Yeah.

[B]

And just like we'll get another guy at some point or we'll get it. We'll try and get another guy at the same time. And maybe it's not a guy at the level that Giannis would dream of, but it's like a really good player and we'll make it work and whatever. I don't. I mean, who the hell knows?

[A]

Anything could happen. The one team I wouldn't rule out for Giannis, which we did not mention, the Utah Jazz, because I think they are at the fuck it stage of all of this. Like they. They just basically rolled over for the last couple years.

[B]

Was it the Jaren Jackson? Have you forgotten that Jaren Jackson Jr. Is on their team?

[A]

I get it. And they have Markkanen and they have Ace Bailey, but my assumption would be maybe he's part of the trade or maybe Markkanen's part of the trade. One of those two guys with a lot of their picks and they just try to talk Giannis in the Salt Lake. Basically, yeah.

[B]

I Mean, that's one. You've got to talk them into it before you make the trade, obviously. But, yeah, what. What did you think of Ramona's piece where she got Wes Edens on the record saying what we all knew already to be true? But it was interesting that he said it like, he's either going to sign an extension or we're going to trade him. Like, what? We're not playing out the year with this. I thought it was. It was notable that he said it, even though we've all been saying, like, the extension is if, if he doesn't sign the extension, it's the same thing as demanding a trade. But the Bucks have essentially gone on record now and said we don't have the wherewithal to play it out like the Thunder did with Durant or the Cavs did with Cleveland or the Cavs did with LeBron the first time in Cleveland. We're not doing that. So if he doesn't sign it, we're trading him for sure. Like, they said that. So it's out there now.

[A]

I do feel like the soap opera of the whole season and the way Giannis kind of handled it started to wear everybody down by the end was my. My guess. It's like you. You say you don't want to get traded, but then another thing comes out and. But you also basically saying, you know, it's like a relationship where you're like, I'm not breaking up with you, but if you want to break up with me, tell me. And that's kind of what's been going on for nine months. I don't think it's been great. And the Knicks would be the other team we do.

[B]

Oh, yeah, sure.

[A]

A terrible Knicks exit combined with Giannis being the panic move this summer.

[B]

I remain strangely optimistic about the Knicks. I can't, like, I don't even understand. I mean, they're, they're, they're on paper, dossier is rock solid. Yet, yeah, they've won six games in a row. When it's feels bad, it feels real bad. But I remain on. Why can't the Knicks make the Finals? Like, I. Like, I'm, I'm all.

[A]

I'm.

[B]

I'm in. I'm still in.

[A]

I don't want to see them as a Celtic fan. It's funny that it worked out the best for Cleveland, who's just going to settle in at fourth place. They're going to get to play Toronto in round one, which is a team I think everybody would want to play, and then they have Detroit in Round two, a team that they know they could beat and that would be their path. And let the Celtics and Knicks just beat the hell out of each other. This episode is brought to you by Hotels.com Save your way is a new feature on Hotels.com and it's as simple as it sounds. When you book a trip as a Hotels.com member, you decide how to use your savings. Take the instant savings now or bank the savings as rewards for later. It's your call only at hotels.com Save youe Way is available to loyalty members in the US and UK and hotels with member prices. Other terms apply. See site for details. This episode is brought to you by Viori, whose lounge collection is a total game changer for fall comfort. Take their Ponto performance joggers and Coronado hoodie made with Viori's signature Dream Knit fabric. Super soft lightweight. Move with you wherever the day takes you. Plus, they're designed to look great whether you're working out, running errands or even heading to the office or like me, power walking around la. Basically, Viori is an investment in your happiness. For our listeners, they're offering 20% off your first purchase at Vuori.com Simmons V-U-O-R-I.com Simmons exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. Last thing we're going to do before we go the winners of 2026. Oh yeah, and I had a couple things for this and by winners. It's not like Wemby's a winner. It's not like the usual NBA ones. The reason I thought of this was, you know, obviously I've been watching a lot of Charlotte. I talked to the bandwagon people. By the way, you're still not allowed on. Been watching them all year.

[B]

I hope they drive their bandwagon more safely than Lamello drives his freaking tank.

[A]

So now you're gonna have Hornets Reddit mad at you. But I think Lamelo is a real winner this season.

[B]

He's on my list. I wrote down. I wrote down. When you gave me this assignment two hours before the podcast, I wrote down some names. Lamelo Ball in bold on my list. He's a winner. Oh, it turns out he's good. Yeah, he's been good the whole time.

[A]

So he was the reason I thought of this idea. I love that he has so his stats. If you look at them, he's actually had seasons with better stats. This is a classic eye test. You have to watch it. I love the way he's playing And I said this last week and I'm going to say it again, like, there's real thoughtfulness in how he's playing the point guard position now and how he's not as risky and kind of reckless as he was. He doesn't seem like he's in like an N1 tournament anymore. And there's a wherewithal with what he's doing now and how he understands. They have these two incredible wings, Miller's. Miller and Knipple together, it's. I mean, Knipple has a chance to get 300 made threes, which would be nuts. Miller, when you watch him, it's like this is like the best version of Paul George, right. That we had in the 2010s basically, night after night. And Lamelo is really good at using them, at using d' Abate and just, he just knows how to drive the car. And I didn't think he had it in him.

[B]

Ooh, does he?

[A]

Well, not. He doesn't know how to drive his car. He knows how to drive the Hornets car. I didn't think he had it in him. It's after six years. To me, the point guard position, it's either. If you haven't shown me it, I don't. I'm not going to believe in it.

[B]

See. And I feel the same, but also almost the opposite in that I think everybody got so disgusted with the five or six crazy things he would do every game that they unjustifiably dismissed all the statistical indicators that he was actually good and actually was like driving Charlotte's offense at a high level when he was on the floor. Because his, his, his plays of insanity were so like, disgusting to basketball purists and not, not like they were right that I think that they just were fed up with him as, as a, as, as a player. And I was like, they were in the play in tournament. Those are things that happen. They had like 500ish seasons with Lamelo and not good teams. He's always been good, but now he's found the right balance in his game that other people, that everyone is sort of agreeing. Okay, yeah, he's actually a helpful NBA player really. Whereas I think he, I think he has been the whole time. But yeah, he's on my winners list for this reason. For exactly these reasons.

[A]

He's basically the last, like, since the All Star break. He's making four threes a game. He's played. He's played 61 games. That's big. And he's basically 20 and seven every night. And I don't think he really cares how many points he scores, which is the other thing I like. I think he, I think he's just doing the plays that help them win. And at the end of games, if he needs to beat somebody off the dribble, they're really good. It's amazing that they're going to probably be a 9 or a 10 seed because the East 45 wins is going to be a 10 seed. It looks like they have a chance to maybe move up if a couple teams fall. But I really hope they make the playoffs because I think they'd be an incredibly fun.

[B]

Hey, man, they're only two games out of six, like in the, in the loss column, like there, there's a lot. Miami has lost four in a row, the Magic have lost four in a row. Like, teams are starting to fall back into their range and even the Hawks, who are six, are only two games ahead of them.

[A]

Jamal Mosley's on my hot seat, Coach, All Star team, by the way. I have a couple more winners. You give me a winner. What do you have?

[B]

Jamal Murray. We're not that far removed from a lot of hand wringing over Jamal Murray's contract. Like, oh, did they overdo this? Was he really a max guy? Sensational season, stamped himself winner.

[A]

I agree. I remember beginning of last year after he had that extension had kicked in real fear that the Jokic era had been completely blown, that if this guy wasn't coming off the Olympics too, that this guy going to get his shit together.

[B]

It was ugly. The Olympics was ugly.

[A]

My next winner, Brandon Ingram, he's on my list too.

[B]

Scotty Barnes, slash Brandon Ingram are co winners on my list.

[A]

So, you know, you go back and you look at Brandon Ingram stats and they've been pretty steady this entire decade. Like he's been between 20 and 23 points a game. His field goal stuff's around the same. But I think this was a combo of the Team USA thing when he basically left the team, whatever happened, and that they were really sour on him and vice versa. And then, you know, last year didn't get the contract he wanted and nobody wanted to trade for him. And at some point you get the stink on you, like why Golden State was the one team that should have traded for him, but they had coached him in Team USA and wanted no part of him and nobody else really wanted him. And we end up with this thing where he gets traded. Toronto Rich talks them into somehow signing him to a pretty sizable extension with no other bidders and all of it seemed insane. You watch the games, he's one of the more reliable. End of games. Throw him the ball, get us a basket. He's got that, that around the foul line move when he, he bounces off somebody to create space and has that little 15 footer. It's kind of Durantish. Honestly, I've been really impressed.

[B]

Yeah, I mean both of them. Because there was a lot of Scotty Barnes skepticism too that he deserved the no brainer. Rookie Max. Both successful seasons complement each other I think in the ways that Toronto's front office thought they would. In that, in that Scotty Barnes is not the kind of end of game scorer that you are describing. And so we need to get someone who is. And yet like I had Jack Armstrong on my show a couple weeks ago.

[A]

Yeah, that was good.

[B]

Like where is all this actually leading? Like neither one of them is quite as good as you need that player in that role to be for a team to really get anywhere. But they're solid. But like I just don't, I don't see a pathway for this particular roster to go super far. But it's a good roster. RJ Barrett's good quickly has been pretty good for the last couple months.

[A]

But the 45 win roster. Yeah, maybe that's a Giannis team too this summer. That could be.

[B]

They've been, they've been on the list. That's true.

[A]

Am I up? Are you up? You're up.

[B]

I can go. I mean Bones Island. Bones island is a winner. He's on my list.

[A]

Back in.

[B]

I'm struggling because I. The name on the top of my list, I can't even read what my handwriting. Oh, Mitch Johnson. Not, not a that, not a, not a great one. But like I like people were like, who is, who is this guy? What do we think of him? And now we're like, yes, guy's pretty good.

[A]

Oh, I think he, I think that's

[B]

a really good one.

[A]

All right. I have a couple more cheap centers. I think we're having a cheap center renaissance led by Donovan Clingan, who multiple teams passed on in that draft, who's now averaging 12 and 12 every game.

[B]

He's good.

[A]

He's third in the league in rebounding and I think he's like third or fourth in blocks. He's 2.3 blocks a game, but it's just like a legitimate guy. Kate is the Celtics version of that diabate, AKA Moose. We call him Moose now in Hornets Nation. But he's basically been a double double for three months. And then the other one that's in there is Mark Williams who trade Veto Phoenix kind of grabs him and he's another one that's like 11 and 8. But there's these guys out there and this goes back to what we talked about in the worst contracts podcast about I just don't want to pay $30 million to a center when I feel like I can find these guys. Right. The Celtics are paying keda and Garza $3 million a year, $4 million a year total. And they're putting up relatively neighborhood numbers to some of these guys that are 30 million, 28 million, 25 million. Cheap centers are making a comeback.

[B]

Can I nominate a few more guys for that list?

[A]

Yeah, let's go. Let's see. Mamu can be in there. Even though he's not technically a center.

[B]

He's a center. Ish, he's a center sometimes not a center. Jock Landale, throw him. Give him a little love. Jalen Smith, give him a little love. Just throwing good love at guys. Cornett, is he out priced this range?

[A]

He's out priced it but he's spiritually still counts.

[B]

The other son, Oso Iguidaro is legit good and has been holding down the four for Mark Williams for, for a bit now. And by the clinging ain't going to be cheap much longer because if he keeps playing like this he's going to make a lot of money on his next contract.

[A]

I actually had Ishbia as a winner because I think they salvaged a truly awful situation with a team that's exceedingly watchable night after night and they have a lot of. It's weird kind of what's the what? They're not assets but they're kind of semi assets. But like you mentioned Iguidaro Goodwin done that. Fleming I think has a chance to be somebody. Gillespie. If you catch Gillespie on the right night he looks like a dominant NCAA point guard.

[B]

Remember two weeks ago you asked just like give me some random buy low NBA stocks just, just off the cuff. I had no prep for it and I mentioned model watch and yeah, I still buy the guy we should have bought and now the price has gone up since then but we should still buy. Is Fleming that guy? That guy's got a shot. Yeah.

[A]

I have two more winners. Nico Harrison.

[B]

I'm interested.

[A]

He did it. There's never been a worse sports trade. We thought last year it was possible. We were hoping but there was still a chance like maybe Davis will be really good on Dallas. Well what happens when Ad Gets healthy and then they give AD away. And then it was. Yeah, but you know, you watch Luke on la, you can kind of see what they did, what, what Nico was thinking. And now on March 22, 2026, it's the worst trade anyone's ever made.

[B]

It actually would be a fun exercise to, to try to engineer similar trades. Like what would be an equivalent trade that if it happened next February would be like, wait, did Timberwolves traded Anthony Edwards for. I mean, I'm not even sure who it would be. Like there's gotta be like a 30 year old like pre like pretty good player. And it comes out. They think, yeah, yeah, we didn't like Ant's attitude about this and that I could. You would, you would struggle to actually

[A]

be the next Luca trade. The next LUCA trade would probably be

[B]

Anthony Edwards or who would be like the return piece. Like, you know, wait, the. What the. I don't even want to put that. I don't even want to put it on anyone. I was going to say the name

[A]

of a player, but that's the thing. First of all, you can't recreate this trade. You can't have a doppelganger for it because it's undopelganger bull. It'll never happen again. There's never will ever be a worse sports trade. And the only thing that will make it funnier is that the Lakers make like the Western Finals and Luka's just destroying everybody. Like he should come to a game. Like I would zag the other way. Come to a Laker game. Bathe in the applause, bathe in the adoration, accept the thank yous from the Laker, from the Laker fans. Right. Instead of being booed and humiliated in Dallas. Zag the other way. You made this other fan base really happy. Go accept their congratulations.

[B]

What if it's all a long con where he's been. Where he's been colluding with Mark Walter for years and this was his move to eventually.

[A]

It's Scooby Doo ending.

[B]

Yeah. To replace Pelinka in the end. What if it's all been part of

[A]

a long scheme that would be one of the biggest scandals in NBA history. We have fired Rob Point and we've replaced him with Nico Harrison and he pulls off his Mavs maps. Pull over. I have one more. I have two more. Actually. The rookie class.

[B]

Well, yeah.

[A]

Of 25. No, because I'll go even further because now that it looks like Ace is really good, we might have a five for five with the rookie quests top five. And I was going to. Yeah, top five where we have no Darkos. No even. I hate saying this, but scoots. And I've really watched and scoot carefully, hoping, hoping for the.

[B]

There's something there.

[A]

There's something there.

[B]

I just. We're getting to the point that it's going to be safe pretty soon to conclude that it's not number two. Pick something. It could be. It could be good NBA player or something, but it might not be ever number two. Pick something.

[A]

He has a really, really high defensive guard ceiling. I don't know if you've picked that up at all. Like, I think he's a physical defender who actually cares about guarding people. He can beat people off the dribble and get to the basket. What he's not is what I thought he was going to be, which is like a Derrick Rose type of athlete getting in the rim. And that's not.

[B]

He's not a finisher like that. He actually overlooks it at the rim sometimes.

[A]

Yeah. And I think that was the miss. But the 96 class, Iverson, Camby, Sharif, Stephon Marbury, Ray Allen, that's a five for five, basically. And then 84 had Hakeem Bowie, MJ Perkins, Barkley. Bowie did play. I know he shouldn't have gone second, and it was a ridiculous pick, but he. He was like a pretty good center for a decade. He ended up playing like 700 games or something. So I think with this 5 for 5 flag, Harper, Vijay Khan, Ace. Ace is probably the wild card, but I think Ace is going to be good. And if Ace is like the scariest out of the five, that's a pretty good five.

[B]

I've liked almost everything about this Ace Bailey season. Even when he wasn't scoring much. I liked the way that he was approaching the game. It was completely the opposite of what I expected based on what I had heard of the Rutgers thing and just everything was. I thought he was going to come in and just chuck up a bunch of bad shots. And he did not play like that at all. He tried hard on defense. He would make the extra pass. He was totally committed to all the things that the Jazz wanted him to be committed to. And then the last couple of months that they've tanked and tanked and tanked, they've been like, just go ahead, man, shoot some shots, create some shots. And he's good at this.

[A]

Work on your game.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Jalen would be the last one. Just the season he's having, but we don't need to Talk about him. And then my last, last, last winner, Adam Silver, pushing this expansion thing when I don't think it's a slam dunk. They have the 23 votes. And I think there's some owners that are like, what the fuck? Including Vegas is 90 minutes from Utah. That would be like if they put an expansion team in, the Clippers in San Diego. Do you think the Clippers and Lakers would care about that?

[B]

Are there two cities that are closer together geographically and further apart culturally? Is it. Is that even possible?

[A]

That's true, but I just. I said this the other day on Thursday's pod and we didn't talk about it, but I thought the timing of that announcement as a Monday, you know, Monday is when the Monday morning, you give somebody something because you want the story to blow up and set the tone for the week. Timing of it was interesting. I don't know if they have the votes and it felt like they wanted to. It almost felt like one of these where you lick your finger and you put it up in the air and you kind of see what the response is. And most of the response was pretty positive. I was probably one of the most negative ones. Cause I think it's ridiculous. I don't think they should be adding two teams. When I would first look at relocation. I also don't know why Vegas should have a team. Nobody's explained that to me.

[B]

The track record of franchises there does not sell itself to you.

[A]

I just think for to be the fifth professional team, it's not a huge market. And I'm not really sure what Vegas is going to look like 10 years from now, whether it's better or worse. But why wouldn't Nashville have a team if we're just doing this over again? Just to be clear, Seattle should have a team. But I've been saying that for 20 years. People know where I stand on Seattle. Seattle should have a team. I don't know if we have to have expansion to get Seattle a team. When I think there's a couple franchises that we have to really seriously look at. And it doesn't seem like they 100% want to have that conversation because they'd rather get the expansion fees. So. Which is. This is what I said Thursday. It's a pure money grab. This is a money grab. It's not good for the league. I don't think expansion is good for the league.

[B]

I'm not. Well, from the perspective purely of talent dilution, I actually am not worried about that. I think there is talent for 32 teams. You might have to.

[A]

I'm not worried about the talent part. I'm worried about what we're seeing now with two more teams that are tanking. And basketball today, there was one good game the whole day. Because you're just throwing away half the schedule every day. When these nine teams that don't give

[B]

a shit, well, they got to do their best to fix the problem A before they introduce problem B. And I think they know that. But every time they've tried to fix problem A, they've just created a different version of problem A. And so that's the challenge for them is can they actually do this in a way that minimizes losing on purpose?

[A]

Because doesn't it make sense to fix that? Before we talk about adding two teams, I am all for like, if you have a real solution for this, do that. And then let's add 32 because we do have enough players.

[B]

I think we do have enough players,

[A]

but I don't think the league should have 32 teams the way we are currently set up. It doesn't make sense to me.

[B]

I hope it's. I hope that it is a driver of discussions on the tanking issue and the schedule issue. I hope that if we're, if the NBA is going to do this and now you have to rearrange the conferences or at least move one team east, you have to rearrange the schedule a little bit. Like let's have a serious conversation then. What should the schedule actually look like? How many games should it be we're all going to get? All the owners are going to get a gazillion dollars in expansion fees. Like can we now have a serious discussion about how many games do we really want to play?

[A]

The players aren't going to get that money though. That's true. So if you're cutting the games, you would have to make that up to the players.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

Because if you have 32 teams now, you have the easiest possible 71 game

[B]

schedule sitting right there for you.

[A]

It's four A team divisions. You all play each other twice and then you have that third set of games against your division. You're at 71 games and we're good to go. And I think everybody would be happy with that. Sounds like you're pro expansion.

[B]

I, I'm just not. I, I'm not anti. The most of the reasons people are anti are either, well, we've got to solve the tanking problem first and I think they know that. Or B, well, it's just gonna be bad teams there's two. There's not enough talent. The talent's gonna be spread too thin. And I just don't. I have not seen evidence of the. The second part being true.

[A]

Okay. All right, that's it for the pod. I had a good time. So we gotta thank State Farm. Cause this was a live one on Netflix and they were gracious enough to be involved with that one. Zach Lowe is going to be back Tuesday and Thursday. I have a new rewatchables coming tomorrow, which is going to be the Nice Guys. You like the Nice Guys love the nice guys.

[B]

It was the movie that really. I don't know if I had seen Gosling in anything funny before that. And I was like, oh, my God, this guy's unbelievable.

[A]

I forgot to set you up for your weekend, but you said you're gonna have to do that on your pod.

[B]

Yeah, it's fine. It's good.

[A]

Save it for whoever you have. Yeah, you had some sort of. Some sort of funny story.

[B]

Iverson. There's an Iverson side plot that's involved. We just. We just bought. I did not run into Allen Iverson. I bid on a jersey at Mystic Aquarium. And we'll leave it at that.

[A]

All right. We'll find out on Zach Lowe's pot on Tuesday. What happened? Zach, good to see you as always. Thanks to Gahao and Eduardo as well. And I will see you on this podcast late Tuesday. Must be 21 plus on President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 on President DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gamble problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER-1-800, my reset. Call 888-797-777 or visit ccpg.org Chattinconenetic or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPENY in New York. For Louisiana, call 877-770-7867. This episode is brought to you by TaxAct. Like an expert coach, TaxAct offers step by step guidance and guaranteed accuracy when filing taxes. Get tips along the way. Add expert assist to talk to tax experts and let our experts do your taxes for you. With Expert full service, TaxAct helps you find the deductions and credits you deserve so you can get them over with. Visit taxact.com to learn more. Conditions apply. See taxact.com for details. Monster Energy. Everybody knows White Monster Zero Ultra. That's the OG it kicked off this whole zero sugar energy drink thing. But Ultra is a whole lineup now. You've got Strawberry Dreams, Blue Hawaiian Sunrise, and Vice Guava. And they all bring the Monster Energy punch.

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