Mavs Fans in Hell, Bleak NFL Situations, an Oscars Recap and RIP Gene Hackman | With Peter Schrager and Wesley Morris

Summary

Summary of "Mavs Fans in Hell, Bleak NFL Situations, an Oscars Recap and RIP Gene Hackman | With Peter Schrager and Wesley Morris"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Bill Simmons Podcast
• Host: Bill Simmons (The Ringer)
• Guests: Peter Schrager and Wesley Morris
• Release Date: March 4, 2025

---

1. Mavs Fans in Hell: Kyrie Irving and the Dallas Mavericks Trade Crisis

Timestamp: [00:00]

Bill Simmons opens the episode by delving into the tumultuous situation surrounding Kyrie Irving and the Dallas Mavericks. Discussing Kyrie's season-ending ACL injury, Bill reflects on his evolving perception of the player. Initially critical of Kyrie's performance in Cleveland and Brooklyn, Bill admits a growing respect for him over the past year and a half.

Bill Simmons [02:30]: "Over the last year and a half, I really grew to like him as a basketball player. I liked how he talked about everything, how he took some responsibility. It was like everything I wanted from an athlete."

The core of the discussion centers on the Mavericks' recent trade involving Luka Doncic—a move Bill describes as "the least popular, most shocking, most indefensible trade in the history of the league" ([05:15]). He highlights the explosive reaction from Mavericks fans, exacerbated by the surge in season ticket prices and the immense workload placed on an already injured Kyrie Irving.

Bill expresses deep sympathy for the Mavericks' fan base, noting their unwavering support for Dirk Nowitzki and the transition to Luka, which seemed promising until the catastrophic trade and subsequent injuries derailed their championship aspirations.

Bill Simmons [07:45]: "I think it's a sad basketball day because Kyrie was playing great. I loved watching him. This really feels like this kills the Mavericks now for the rest of the decade."

He raises concerns about the Mavericks' rebuilding process, especially with Kyrie's prolonged absence potentially extending to two years, likening it to Jamal Murray's injury situation in Denver.

2. Bleak NFL Situations: Quarterbacks, Team Challenges, and Draft Speculations

Timestamp: [09:57]

The conversation transitions to the NFL, with guest Peter Schrager providing insights from the recent combine. They discuss the Giants' rumored interest in Matthew Stafford, analyzing the feasibility and potential trade dynamics involving second and third-round picks.

Peter Schrager [11:45]: "The Giants had the parameters in place and were willing to engage, but the Rams never went down that road in such a formal fashion."

Bill criticizes the Giants' strategy, questioning the wisdom of trading away valuable draft picks for Stafford, especially when considering the team's current roster and future prospects.

The discussion broadens to encompass broader NFL quarterback issues. They identify teams like the Browns, Jets, Saints, and Raiders as having particularly bleak situations due to quarterback uncertainties and cap constraints. Sam Darnold emerges as a focal point, with debates about his potential trade value versus his performance woes.

Bill Simmons [17:46]: "But there's three teams right now who just have no idea who their quarterbacks are going to be. The Raiders have the best chance to probably stumble into one because they have all the cap space."

Peter introduces Jared Goff and Josh McDaniels into the mix, exploring the complexity of quarterback evaluations and the challenges teams face in making optimal selections during drafts.

The conversation highlights the scarcity and high stakes of quarterback positions in the NFL, emphasizing the long-term implications of current team decisions on their championship prospects.

3. Oscars Recap and Reflection: Performances, Gene Hackman, and Hollywood Insights

Timestamp: [70:49]

Shifting gears, the podcast delves into an Oscars recap, with guest Wesley Morris sharing his perspectives on last year's ceremony. The discussion centers on standout performances, the legacy of deceased actor Gene Hackman, and the evolving nature of Hollywood award recognitions.

Bill laments the lack of impactful performances that resonate with wider audiences, contrasting it with past Oscars where performances like Gene Hackman's were celebrated for their depth and authenticity.

Bill Simmons [84:14]: "Gene Hackman could play every part in the White House. He could be the Vice President, he could be the military general... He just had this incredible versatility."

Wesley praises Gene Hackman's illustrious career, noting his ability to embody a diverse range of characters seamlessly—from stern law enforcement officers to complex antagonists.

Wesley Morris [82:08]: "He could play every part, and he could just assimilate into it without bringing in any of his own celebrity baggage."

They reflect on specific roles, such as Hackman's performance in "The French Connection" and his mentorship in films like "Postcards from the Edge," underscoring his professionalism and the indelible mark he left on the industry.

The conversation also touches on the shifting landscape of the Oscars, questioning whether younger generations continue to value and engage with the ceremony as intensely as previous ones.

Bill Simmons [101:07]: "I just don’t know if the younger generation cares about the Oscars the way they did in the past."

Wesley adds that the fragmentation of media consumption, with audiences gravitating towards streaming and a plethora of content options, has diluted the collective cultural impact of such award ceremonies.

4. RIP Gene Hackman: Celebrating a Cinematic Legend

Timestamp: [109:40]

In a poignant segment, Bill mourns the passing of Gene Hackman, highlighting his unparalleled contributions to cinema. He reminisces about Hackman's versatile roles and the respect he commanded among peers and audiences alike.

Bill Simmons [109:40]: "Gene Hackman was somebody that had this awesome, awesome, awesome career forever and then just walked away and didn't... He's a true one on one."

Wesley complements Bill's sentiments, describing Hackman as a "meaty" actor who brought authenticity and gravitas to every role, making him a beloved figure in Hollywood.

Wesley Morris [117:54]: "He just seemed like he was perpetually 45 years old. He embodies something that people seem to like."

They discuss how Hackman's presence elevated every film he was part of, from "Hoosiers" to "The Birdcage," solidifying his status as a cinematic icon.

Bill Simmons [122:01]: "He could play every part and make it work. That's why he's so unique."

Conclusion

Throughout the episode, Bill Simmons, alongside guests Peter Schrager and Wesley Morris, navigates through a rich tapestry of sports and entertainment discussions. From the deep frustrations of Mavericks fans facing a bleak future with Kyrie Irving's injury and questionable trades to the nostalgic and reverent celebration of Gene Hackman's enduring legacy in Hollywood, the podcast offers listeners a comprehensive and engaging exploration of contemporary sports dynamics and timeless cinematic excellence.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Bill Simmons [02:30]: "Over the last year and a half, I really grew to like him as a basketball player."
• Bill Simmons [05:15]: "It's the least popular, most shocking, most indefensible trade in the history of the league."
• Peter Schrager [11:45]: "The Giants had the parameters in place and were willing to engage."
• Bill Simmons [17:46]: "There are three teams right now who just have no idea who their quarterbacks are going to be."
• Bill Simmons [84:14]: "Gene Hackman could play every part in the White House."
• Wesley Morris [82:08]: "He could play every part, and he could just assimilate into it without bringing in any of his own celebrity baggage."
• Bill Simmons [109:40]: "Gene Hackman was somebody that had this awesome career forever and then just walked away."
• Bill Simmons [122:01]: "He could play every part and make it work. That's why he's so unique."

This detailed summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the episode, providing a coherent narrative for those who haven't listened while retaining the essence and critical viewpoints expressed by the hosts and guests.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

Welcome to the Bill Simmons podcast. Before we get to the pod, want to talk about Kyrie Irving and the Dallas Mavericks in this crazy situation? Kyrie, out for the year towards acl, came out today. And Kyrie is. I've had a roller coaster ride with over the years where didn't really like him on Cleveland. LeBron showed up, really liked him, didn't like him as much. Came to my favorite team, was all in it ended, it couldn't. Ended worse. Became probably my least favorite basketball player. Goes to Brooklyn. That goes terrible, goes to Dallas. You guys are so stupid. And then over the last two years or last maybe year and a half, I really grew to like him as a basketball player. I liked how he talked about everything, how he took some responsibility. It was like everything I wanted from an athlete. I really liked watching him and I grew to respect and like him as a player. And they make this Luca trademark. It is the least popular, most shocking, most indefensible trade in the history of the league. It's getting worse by the day. The fans are just so angry. They are like scorn lovers multiplied by a hundred. They raised the season ticket prices this week. Everybody goes nuts again. This is the angriest fan base that we've had in a while. And here's Kyrie, who's by the way, they're putting crazy minutes on him. He's in the 2010 draft or 2011 draft. He's been in the league for a while. He's a point guard. He's playing the last six weeks 38.7 minutes, which led the league. So they're throwing this huge burden on a guy who hasn't exactly been Cal Ripken Jr. And, and they're talking about how they rebuilt themselves. This was about a title window. They trade for Davis, he gets hurt in the first game. They put this crazy load on Kyrie, he breaks down. It's after the trade deadline. They have their first round pick next year. And what we've seen with this injury over the years is it's, it's almost a two year injury. You lose the guy this year, but even when he comes back. We saw this happen with Jamal Murray in Denver. They're not either they don't come back the season after or when they come back, they're not, you know, not, not the same person. So you almost have to think you lose a year and a half. They don't have control of their own pick from 27 to 30. And on top of this, they have to watch Luca, who's already Rejuvenated, you can see it. Who, when we talk about Face of the League. Face of the League, like Luka on the most famous basketball franchise we have all due respect to, the Celtics, you can watch the Celtic City documentary. But the Lakers, I think are the, the premier franchise in the league. The Celtics are the most successful. The Lakers are in la. They've had the most stars. Luka's in there now. There's an energy that's completely different at these games. And the maverick fans who already got kicked in the nuts with this trade in the worst way I think we've ever seen in basketball, now they have to watch this guy blossom as their team already just fell apart. And you know, I tweeted this earlier today and I really, I really mean it. I went to those three 2011 finals games in Dallas. When they came back and they beat Miami, they actually lost the first game, which was Dwyane Wade, I think the best game I've ever seen him play. And then they come back, they win game four, they win game five. And a big reason they won those games was their crowd was incredible. I don't know where they rank in the best basketball fan bases, but for me they're in the top seven. And you know, I used to love the warriors fan base even before the Curry stuff happened. There's the Knicks. No matter how bad the teams are, if you went to a game and they liked the team, it was just a great place to see a game. You could feel the love. And I really feel like the Dallas fans, everything they had built from 1980 on, like had gotten to that level. They really loved this team. They appreciated Dirk, they really wanted him to come through. And then in those, those three games, especially the last two, and they started to shift the narrative on Dirk and you could just really feel the love and the pure euphoria. And then Luka shows up, becomes their guy, and they're like, we're in. We have 20 year season tickets for this dude. We'll buy his jerseys. We love this guy. This is our guy. We'll have some ups and downs, maybe he won't always be in shape, but this guy's special and we're going to win the title with him and it's going to be amazing. And the trade pulled that away. They're still pissed about it. Now you have this, and this situation is now so bad, we were joking after it happened that the real reason the family that owns the team did this is because they wanted to sabotage basketball in Dallas and move it to Vegas, move the team to Vegas because the Dallas team, the Dallas fans would hate them so much that you'd almost have to move. It's almost like there's a precedent of this. Like George Shin in Charlotte. He. His name became so bad in Charlotte that he actually moved the team to New Orleans. It's obviously ridiculous. It would never happen, but that, but the Kyrie injury on top of everything else is the first time where I started thinking to myself, holy shit, that's actually how bad this might get. Where they might have to be like, hey, can we have the Vegas expansion team instead? And we'll just sell Dallas and maybe. Or make Dallas the expansion team. Or we'll move operations to Vegas and you can make Dallas the expansion team and call it the Mavericks and keep it the history. That's how bad this is. And I'm really feeling for the Mavs today because the combo of that trade, losing Davis in his first game and then losing Kyrie for a year and a half, probably, um, it's. I, I honestly can't think of another NBA situation like this where a fan base has taken in the teeth like this. So shout out to them. I think it's a sad basketball day because Kyrie was playing great. I loved watching him. This really feels like this kills the Mavericks now for the rest of the decade. So wanted to mention at the top. Let's get to the rest of the podcast. This episode is brought to you by Nissan. If you're planning on an adventurous 2025, you're going to need a car that can keep up with you and conquer anything in your path. The Nissan Armada Pro 4X is that car with a twin turbo V6 engine, ready to propel your adventures. Up to 8,500 pounds of towing capacity to haul all your favorite toys and space for eight passengers. This unshakable fortress will chew up and spit out anything you throw at it. Learn more at the all new 2025 Nissan Armada.com towing capacity varies by configuration. See Nissan Towing Guide and Owner's Manual for additional information. Always secure cargo. I hope you stayed because I have football on the Oscars and Gene Hackman coming up next. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra Michelob Ultra Superior Light Beer in the Ultimate Trophy. Win or lose, you're bound to enjoy the ride with a good beer in hand. McGlob ultra crisp refreshing only 95 calories. A superior light beer, no matter the game, sport or season, Superior is worth playing for. So sign up for ultra [e-mail] courtside and you can enjoy some of these games with a nice beer in your hand. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2025 Anheuser Busch Michelob Ultra registered light beer, St. Louis, Missouri must be 21 + to order alcohol. Alcohol available only in select markets. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network put up a new rewatchables. On Monday night we did Rocky. That's right, the original Rocky. The Oscar winning Rocky. The movie that made Sly Stallone an A plus list superstar that created the template for all sports movies. That was me and Chris Ryan and Van Lathan. You can watch that as a video podcast on Spotify. You can also watch it on The Ringer Movies YouTube channel. I also another podcast. This week we did the episode three recap of the White Lotus. You can find that on the Prestige TV podcast. You can find all the clips and videos from this podcast and the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. And you can watch us. I hope you're watching us as a video podcast. So we launched the first episode of Celtic City yesterday on hbo. First of nine episodes. You can also watch it on Max. Please check it out. The feedback's been awesome. Thanks to everybody who reached out. You know, this is if you care about basketball, you care about sports history, my hope of this stuff is you, you could potentially get sucked in if something is just really well done. And I think our thing is really well done. And I think the early feedback is that people are like, wow, I learned a lot. This is fucking awesome to watch. When's the next one? So it's once a week. Check it out. Celtic City on hbo. And Max, coming up on this podcast, I'm going to talk to our old friend Peter Schrager. What he found out at the combine is there draft stuff, free agent stuff. Who has the bleakest situation in the league? We're hitting all that. And then Wesley Morris comes on to review the Oscars to talk about the movie year we just had. And really to talk about Gene Hackman because we had to get in that as well, though we did a lot of Demi Moore stuff too. And then he's going to give us his favorite TV show at the end. It's all next. First, our friends from Pro Jab. All right, taping this on a Tuesday morning Pacific time. Peter Schrager's here. Haven't talked to him in a while. He was just at the combine. A lot of people are saying he was the one that broke up the Starbucks fight. I don't think he got a lot of credit for that. You were like third man in, just trying, trying to keep peace at an Indianapolis Starbucks combine. Crazy place. You love it. Is this like your. Was that your favorite week of the year?

[Peter Schrager]

It's the best. It's the best because you see something on TV and you're like, all right, it's a bunch of people in their underwear working out. And like, it's not even 1% of what combine week is. And I would advise any young aspiring NFL journalist, any NFL fan to like, go, go for a couple days. Because as much as it's about the on field drills, like, you will bump into Mike Tomlin at a restaurant, you will see, you know, Sean Payton just, you know, having a private meeting with an agent out in the open in front of that JW Marriott Starbucks, which, by the way, is. It's like literally going to Times Square and starting a fight when it's at combat, that's like the hub of everything, the JW. So, like 10 teams are at the JW. Every media member is at the JW. And for that interaction or that altercation or whatever it is to happen at that Starbucks, obviously the irony of Jordan Schultz's father being the longtime CEO of Starbucks is one thing, but to do it there in that public of a forum, like, I got texts from, you know, NFL coach, NFL gm, three agents, four different media members that like, oh, there was just something. So that is the crossroads of all things.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. So it was Jordan Schultz and Ian Rapoport to two NFL insiders, for lack of a better word. And it would have been funnier if it was because Rapaport made some sort of crack about your dad cost Seattle the Sonics. And that was like. It was like way more deep seated, but it just seemed like some insider kerfuffle. The big thing I'm looking at, and there's already been some buzz about the Giants trading up. I don't know. Do you feel like it was true that the Giants could have had Stafford and they had the draft pick compensation? Rich Eisen reported that yesterday. Do we feel like that is 100% accurate that the Rams were just ready to trade Stafford to the Giants or no?

[Peter Schrager]

I think that the Giants had the parameters in place and were willing to engage, but the Rams never went down that road in such a formal fashion. So they had conversations. Essentially. Stafford couldn't shop himself to any of these. He's not a free agent. So what the Rams did was they gave Jimmy Sexton his agent, who's you Know, big power. He's Nick Saban's agent. He's parcels agent, like a big agent. The ability to go look at what the market would be. And the Giants were obviously interested and the trade.

[Bill Simmons]

But not for the first round pick though, right? Probably, I guess second or third.

[Peter Schrager]

And I know it from all angles because of my relationship with McVay, but also my relationship with Stafford. So it's, it was, you know, go see what's out there and what destinations could be possible. And it came down to basically the Raiders being very interested in the Giants. And what I think the trade compensation would have been, would have been Giants give up their second round pick, which is the 34th pick, and then the Rams give back a third round and Stafford. But then Stafford would need to tear up the contract and have a massive contract which would have been paying him close to $15 million more per year than what he's essentially going to play for with the Rams. And at the end of the day, like they went down this road and as it dragged on day by day by day, I think at one point like on Wednesday, I was like, wow, it might actually happen and it might actually be the Raiders or the Giants. But then by Thursday when I got word that like Stafford and McVeigh were having breakfast at 6:30 in the morning in LA, I'm like, it's done. Like, and this conversation started back at super bowl, whether that was like some of the rumors and I got caught in a little bit of shit because I was interviewed and caught off guard and it was like, what do you think about Stafford and the Rams? And I'm like, I just know this, that they're going to have to have conversations and figure out a new contract. But also I know that McVeigh loves Jimmy G. And that set off like.

[Bill Simmons]

An entire, like you got aggregated.

[Peter Schrager]

Got aggregated. But if they were to move on from Stafford, which cooler heads prevailed, like they had backup plans, they had Jimmy G, and then all the reports are accurate that Rogers could have very well been the next quarterback of the Los Angeles Rams.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I mean the Giants are so stupid. What's the point of trading for Stafford? What are you going to win the super bowl in the next three years? Like that's, there's nothing. You're going to give up a possible starter slash all Pro in the second round because you want to go 7 and 10.

[Peter Schrager]

What was the alternative?

[Bill Simmons]

Alternative like at they think they're a.

[Peter Schrager]

Quarterback away from being relevant and I don't think it's that far Off. Like I look at their team. Well, I mean it. They, they get Andrew Thomas back at offensive tackle and then last year neighbors.

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't realize. Aren't they in the same division with Washington and Philly?

[Peter Schrager]

They're confident that this team is not that far off and that the quarterback play was.

[Bill Simmons]

Come on. Well, let's believe that.

[Peter Schrager]

Why not? They've got a. They've got first round picks all over the offensive line. They've got Malik neighbors and then they've got this.

[Bill Simmons]

One of those first round picks is Evan Neil, isn't it?

[Peter Schrager]

Sure. So that's a wash, right? So like, like, like Neil's not the guy.

[Bill Simmons]

Come on. They have no chance. I would be going the other way and trying to trade guys to get more picks and try to be booty.

[Peter Schrager]

You've got Dexter Lawrence, Thibodeau and you got Brian Burns. Like they're not. This is, this is a team that everyone's like, oh, they. I can't believe they got rid of Saquon. I can't believe they got rid of Saquon. Wasn't going to do anything with the Giants last year close to what he did with the Eagles. So what they do, they invested in their offensive line and they have.

[Bill Simmons]

But this is the point. Then, then talk yourself into Cam Ward if you think he can be a top three pick. I mean, so that, this is why I brought up Stafford. Because the stuff has started today about they're going to leapfrog to one, they're going to take him one. It just feels like Cam Ward's going first in this draft.

[Peter Schrager]

He very well might.

[Bill Simmons]

Very well. It doesn't mean he's the best player. It doesn't mean it makes sense. But there's three teams right now who just have no idea who their quarterback's going to be. The Raiders have the best chance to probably stumble into one because they have all the cap space. The Giants, I don't know how they get one that actually make my case that I just laid out. How are you going to make the playoffs? Like you're better off betting on a guy who maybe can become the guy here.

[Peter Schrager]

Here's the case for bringing in a Rogers at 41 for the Giants. Yes. Here's the case. Hear me out. Motivated, Cheap. Comparable.

[Bill Simmons]

Motivated.

[Peter Schrager]

Motivated, yes. Embarrassed. Embarrassed that the jets said we're good without you. Motivated. Cheap. Comparable to a Stafford or to one of these bigger.

[Bill Simmons]

Definitely be cheap.

[Peter Schrager]

And you've got Brian D. Who had his name from being coach of the year to now being the Clown of New York and being considered a joke. Two guys that know football inside and out. And hey, let's, let's say screw it and let's get with a giant chip on our shoulder and see now, look.

[Bill Simmons]

That was the case.

[Peter Schrager]

They'd love to get to one. Sure, they would love to get to one. But here's the deal. Rogers. As much as you don't like them, as much as Kimmel doesn't like him, as much as cousin Sal doesn't like him, players like him.

[Bill Simmons]

His teammates, like the jets fans, didn't like him. Can we throw them in how he looked last year where he had no legs and didn't want to get hit and was terrible.

[Peter Schrager]

I think he had 28 touchdowns, 11 interceptions. I'm pushing Hill here. I'm trying. But I would say this, the alternatives of, hey, we could roll out Rogers and still get a young quarterback and you have Rogers as your quarterback for this year and you're not throwing someone to the wolves and saying, hey, go out there and play for your first season right out of the gates. That's the argument to make. I would also add that, you know, the Titans have the first pick in the draft. Will Levis will not be their starting quarterback week one. I know that's not, that's not necessarily out there.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't see it a good run.

[Peter Schrager]

I don't think the Browns are going to start Deshaun Watson because he can't physically. But I don't think Deshaun Watson is going to have many snaps, if any, again as a Cleveland Brown in his NFL career. I'll say that. So that's the second team. Then you got the Giants, then you got the jets, then you got the Raiders. So this whole.

[Bill Simmons]

So you have four teams in the top seven, basically, that desperately need a quarterback.

[Peter Schrager]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

So, Kimberly, which is why Kim Ward has to go first and it's not even going to matter whether he should be the first pick. And usually, what is it? It's 50, 50 with a quarterback that high. Those are the odds from the last 25 years. It might even be like 35, 65 for him to be good.

[Peter Schrager]

Totally.

[Bill Simmons]

But he's still got to do it.

[Peter Schrager]

And look, if you're the Titans and you can maybe trade back and still get Abdul Carter and Travis Hunter at 3 or at 5 or at 2 or that's fine. But you still don't have a quarterback.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Peter Schrager]

So. So to me, the Titans and I've done a lot of work and talked to everybody this week, like everyone Assumes they're going to go Carter 1 or Hunter 1 and they're. Or they're going to let someone trade up now. Like I wouldn't, I wouldn't dismiss cam ward at 1. Get us the quarterback and then we could figure it out and get a bridge quarterback if we need. And by bridge quarterback, I'm not talking Sam Darnold. I'm talking like a Jared Stidham or a Taylor Heinecke or like one of those guys. Because last year talking to now. But those are the guys that start off like a Jacoby Brissette last year or Marcus Mariota in the room.

[Bill Simmons]

I know, but if this is the Raiders last year. Right. Well, Minshew, he'll be a stop gap and then he's get Cam Ward.

[Peter Schrager]

Yeah, you're good and you've got your guy. So I talked to Cliff and Adam Peters a bunch and it's like the underrated guy in this whole process for Jaden Daniels was having Mariota there because he had a veteran to learn from who I think. So that's almost as key as drafting the right quarterback, is getting the right room. And last year Caleb had Tyson Bagent and a couple undrafted guys and like a bunch of like second, you know, third options as quarterback.

[Bill Simmons]

Drake May had Brissette, which I think was a bonus considering he didn't have a coaching staff, but at least he had Jacoby Brissette.

[Peter Schrager]

And look at what Drake May's got this year. You now add in Josh McDaniels, you add in Todd Downing, you suddenly have like a real staff around him and guys that have been there and done that. And of course, Vrabel is a. Is an upgrade at head coach as well.

[Bill Simmons]

Is there? I was Texting with Todd McShay about this this morning. Isn't. Is it a likely scenario that quarterbacks go 1, 2, even if it makes no sense whatsoever? Because nobody's been able to explain to me why the Browns wouldn't take a quarterback when Deshaun Watson isn't playing again. They're absolutely screwed with the cap. There is no possible way they can acquire anybody and this is their one chance to actually add somebody. So I don't. What was the. I mean, there's been the Sanders stuff and the stories about the stories and the narratives behind the narratives. We've gone in nine different directions. Oh, we're just anonymous QB coaches.

[Peter Schrager]

Just wait.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's going to get worse and worse. And it's also, he's, you know, got a famous father who might decide. I want to nudge him toward a certain team and is going to know some tricks some other families don't. Which if, by the way, I think that should happen more often. I think that should happen with Cooper Flag in the NBA. Like, you have the leverage. Like we always talk about player empowerment with the NBA and pick your team like it's never with the rookie. We saw it with Eli Manning where he didn't want to go to San Diego, ended up with the Giants. Like, I'm always amazed it doesn't happen more often. But if, if Deon is like, I want Sanders on Vegas, that's just how this is going to play out. It would be pretty hard for the rest of the league to stop that. Anyway, I feel like there's a 1, 2 scenario with the QBs, right?

[Peter Schrager]

Absolutely. And Cleveland very interested in quarterbacks. And you look at the free agent crop right now, I don't have a team for Sam Darnold that's given him $40 million. I think Sam Darnold, who had arguably the best 17 weeks of his life, had maybe the most disastrous and financially prohibitive eight days any quarterback's ever had in NFL history.

[Bill Simmons]

You're right. It wasn't even two weeks. It was eight days.

[Peter Schrager]

Eight days. It was that.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like a Hawaii trip.

[Peter Schrager]

It really is like White Lotus.

[Bill Simmons]

It was like he had White Lotus season four. I've lost $80 billion.

[Peter Schrager]

Yes. He was like Isaac's. Exactly. Saxon. What a name. So, yeah, you've got, you've got the Sunday night against the Lions. Then you have an even worse disastrous performance against the Rams eight days later in Arizona. And it went from being potentially line around the block of teams to like this week at the combine. Not a lot of Darnold love. So can't go back to the Jets. Doesn't sound like the Giants. I don't think the Raiders are doing flips over Sam Darnold. The Steelers seem to be pretty happy and going for Justin Fields is what the latest I've heard. So now the teams are rather limited. Are the Browns going to break the bank after already paying Deshaun and now pay for Sam Darnold? I don't know. So Darnold's number one on that list. And then it's like very quickly gets to Kirk Cousins and Russell Wilson and. And I said Jared Stidham. Like those are the names. And it's not exactly previous years where there's this long list of, well, Baker Mayfield might be a possibility or we could do like you might be Looking at for the Browns, like, all right, it's Daniel Jones, Carson Wentz, or we draft someone at 2.

[Bill Simmons]

And when you're at that point, you're like, that's chilling.

[Peter Schrager]

Let's draft someone at 2.

[Bill Simmons]

Which is why the Giants would have to leapfrog the Browns at 2 to get Cam Ward, which is why I think Cam Ward is going to be the first pick.

[Peter Schrager]

And I'm with you. And I also think Giants beat the Colts in a non, you know, insignificant Week 16 game, and Malik Babers had about 200 yards, and it cost the Giants the top two picks. And now.

[Bill Simmons]

Are you talking about the Drew Lock game? That's what it's called now, right? We had the Pats, had the Joe Milton game, and there was the. But Drew Lock was incredible in that game because I bet on the Colts. Drew Locke was lights out. I mean, you could make a case like, yo, look at that Drew Lock tape. Maybe we. Maybe we have the solution in house.

[Peter Schrager]

Maybe he's a free agent himself. So it's.

[Bill Simmons]

It's.

[Peter Schrager]

I think it's a very good possibility that despite the fact that this draft class at quarterback is nowhere near last year's, like those 1, 2, 3 picks last year, it. Those guys, those guys have been talking about for 12 months, and it was no brainer. They were going 1, 2, 3, and it was like, if you can get in the top three, you're getting a franchise quarterback now.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Peter Schrager]

Bo Nicks was not viewed this way. Michael Penix wasn't seen as a top McCarthy. And McCarthy was like this wild card, which still is a wild card this year. Cam Ward's got huge upside, but despite the great years he's had at Washington State in Miami, he's not viewed in that same category as those top three guys. And then it's a giant drop off from what I gather. And then just viewed his prospects, not. Not necessarily how they turn out. Shador, Jackson Dart, and then a bunch of unknowns.

[Bill Simmons]

So you have Shador, like, next to Jackson Dart, potentially.

[Peter Schrager]

Yeah, yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

I've got.

[Peter Schrager]

I think. I think Shedeur is viewed closer to Jackson Dart than Shador is viewed closer to Cam Ward.

[Bill Simmons]

So he could be a drop chip on the shoulder guy.

[Peter Schrager]

Absolutely. And you're talking about leverage that Dion. I don't. I don't know if they have leverage unless they've got an agreement from a team that's like, hey, no matter what, we're taking them. Don't worry. You guys can. Like he. I don't.

[Bill Simmons]

Can I zag here, son? Of a famous person. Tough. Seems like he's smart. It seems like the thing that people are worried about with him is the athleticism more than anything. But he's got the toughness and the competitiveness that they like. And I do feel like as we get closer, the team start talking themselves into the pluses.

[Peter Schrager]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Because the minuses aren't like, this guy's kind of a wuss. This guy's not a leader of men. You know, they're more like. Not a diva.

[Peter Schrager]

Don't.

[Bill Simmons]

Don't.

[Peter Schrager]

Don't read any of that shit. He's not a diva. This guy chose to go to Jackson State. Right. Also, I tweeted this yesterday, and I'm sure it was the tweet that signed off a million. No. No one cared. I tweeted this yesterday that the one thing a GM told me don't sleep on Shador with this is he is tough as shit. Got the shit kicked out of him the last few years and got up every single time. And they love that. That's. Yeah, you don't love the fact that he's been beaten around a bunch, but you do love the fact that he didn't cry about it, didn't whine about it, got up. He was against an inferior off. He was behind an inferior offensive line on a team that was really just like, slapped together in the last couple of years. And they put together some wins early. But this was not the same level of talent that necessarily a Jackson Dart had at Ole Miss or Quinn Ewers had at Texas. This was Shador and his point at the combine, and it rubbed people wrong. The way he had some bravado at it is that he changes places when he gets there. So Jackson State obviously went from this HBCU that had no resources to sudden being a national name. And then he goes to Colorado. And we had one week where big noon kickoff from Fox and game day were there week two, vying for real estate in Boulder. It happens. And the Deion thing is real, but there's also a lot of positives to that in that he's the son of one of the greatest football players ever, and he's seen how to handle yourself as a pro, and he's seen how the business works. And Shador has never wavered in that he is a leader and those guys do respect him.

[Bill Simmons]

There's the other piece of that when you think about quarterback prospects. Cause there's two versions of it, right? There's a quarterback who had the weight, the college on their shoulders, and Then there's the guy who was on an awesome team where the program was kind of the star and they were the quarterback of it. And some of the guys that have succeeded, especially recently, you know, Drake may just. He stayed in North Carolina. He was the whole program. He took all the leadership responsibilities. And it was. Even though the record kind of came and went. But he was. Whatever. Bo Nix was in the spotlight in real ways in different colleges. And then Jaden Daniels, same thing. And then he has that LSU year where I. I just wonder sometimes is it better to. In college, you're really the guy, at least for a year. Does that prep you in a certain way to. Whereas you look at like a trubisky. Like, I. I would study if I was a team.

[Peter Schrager]

Hey, Anthony Richardson. Anthony Richardson.

[Bill Simmons]

Anthony Richardson. Have somebody study like, like, the ones that didn't work and like, what are the common denominators? And one of them is, like, not enough starts. Like, that was a Trey Lance thing too. Um, how big was the spotlight? How much pressure were they under on this limited level? And how did that go to the. How is that going to transfer? Sanders had like a giant spotlight on him for huge three years there, which I think is a positive.

[Peter Schrager]

Yeah, I mean, the Coloradiers, but also in Jackson State, they really put a lot of resources into marketing that thing. And, like, the fact he decided to go there and they brought Hunter there, that was a major story for a lot of.

[Bill Simmons]

They were in the limelight. It was those two. And Dion, it was a real thing.

[Peter Schrager]

And Troy Aikman would show up at games and they had, like. It became a thing. I think last year might have changed the narrative a little bit. Bo Nix played 61 games in college. He was, you know, older than every other prospect in that draft. He shows up and he was immediately dismissed by a lot of teams because, well, we've seen Bo Nicks, like, there's no upside, like. And Sean Payton, who, you know, I'm going to always talk about if I get an opportunity, was like, I like the fact that he's played 61 games, did it in the SEC and then played the Senior bowl and then was in, you know, major college games. Like, I like that fact. So this year you've got this guy, Tyler Schuck, who's not being discussed at all. Watch. He will be rising off draft boards. He was out of Louisville, but was at Texas Tech before that and somewhere else before that. He's played a ton of college football, is 25 years old, and in the past It'd be like, we don't want that. Shuck stock is rising because of all this experience he's had.

[Bill Simmons]

Purdy parallel Brock Purdy, same thing.

[Peter Schrager]

He played all those years at Iowa State. Like, we like that because, you know Cam Ward. We know he went from Washington State to Miami. He started out incarnate. Word, that was his first school. Zero offers anywhere. But he changed that program, went to Washington State and on a bad Washington State team, competed with all of the Pac12 heavies and did well. And then goes over to Miami and breaks every school record and ends up with the most touchdowns ever thrown in college football. And it's like, that's. That's a. That's a. That's a resume. That is a. That is life lessons.

[Bill Simmons]

That is.

[Peter Schrager]

That is. That is adversity. That is different offenses.

[Bill Simmons]

It's going into a new situation, having to meet a bunch of people, and.

[Peter Schrager]

I'm going to be the alpha.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Peter Schrager]

Um, I know we're a little bit all over the place, but, like, no.

[Bill Simmons]

Can we go back to the experience, though, for a second? Because, yeah, I think this is actually the case for Darnold, who I think is now an underrated asset. He has 27 games at USC right where he started.

[Wesley Morris]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

And then if you go in as a Pro, he started 73 games over the last eight years. He's had a hundred career starts now and look great until those last two weeks. Is that a Minnesota offensive line issue? Was it a scheming issue? Was it just that he played two great teams? Like, I feel as if we get closer to free agency, there's going to be teams tilting it and going glass half full. Because if you can get him for less than Baker. Well, let's say you can get him for 15 to 20.

[Peter Schrager]

Let's say you can get him to 15 to 20. Yes. The question is he'd do that.

[Bill Simmons]

Like that 30 to 40. But you're talking about the Raiders wouldn't want to spend 20 million a year on Sam Darnold if they couldn't get the thing. That would be Brady just being like, this guy doesn't have it. I'm out.

[Peter Schrager]

Yeah, that's what that would be. If that's his number and the Raiders aren't in. That's Brady saying, I don't give my, you know, vote of approval on this. Look, my. Now that we're two months removed and I. I think this might have been the case and I'm making excuses for them. I think that Sunday night game with so Much buildup and so much on the line for the Vikings and the Lions. Killed both those teams that they.

[Bill Simmons]

It was like. Like a regular season Super Bowl.

[Peter Schrager]

It was a Super Bowl. They destroyed each other. They got. They were all. They knew what was at stake. You had a home field during the playoffs. The number one seed was in the balance as well. And like, it was the most significant football game in the regular season this league has ever seen for both teams. And they both just destroyed each other. Put everything into it that they were both completely flat the next time we saw them. And the Lions, of course, they lose on the Saturday that follows. But then the Vikings lost the Monday that preceded that. So Darnold, those eight days, and everyone I speak to who's negative on Darnold is like, well, that's. That's what you hoped you never saw again, that he erased it. But, like, there it was.

[Bill Simmons]

That was 35 and 12. I mean, if it's Aaron Rodgers versus Darnold. Come on. Kyle's going to turn the TikTok camera on because I have a very important Tom Brady point.

[Peter Schrager]

Okay, let's go.

[Bill Simmons]

Tom Brady. I love Tom Brady. Brought me six Super Bowls. One of my favorite athletes of all time. This is a dangerous thing where you have him running a football team, thinking he knows what's best with quarterback because he was a great quarterback. Because all of the evidence with the great players we've ever had name the sport. Mostly they're not good at this. They see things. They think they're seeing things that other people don't see. And it's not actually rational. Like Magic Johnson. Lonzo Ball got hurt, obviously, but Magic Johnson took Lonzo Ball over Jason Tatum. Right. You have, like, Wayne Gretzky ran a hockey team. How did that go? I'm trying to think who was.

[Peter Schrager]

I don't have much on the Coyotes. Were they no good? Shane Doan not good enough? I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

But Michael Jordan ran the Charlotte Hornets slash Bobcats for Big Sean May.

[Peter Schrager]

Guy couldn't have been worse.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, steered them toward Kwame Brown. The wizard steered them toward Kwame Brown over Pau Gasol and those guys because he liked what he saw from Kwame Brown. A workout like, I don't know if I trust the greatest players ever on stuff like this.

[Peter Schrager]

That's an interesting take.

[Bill Simmons]

Are there.

[Peter Schrager]

Is there the argument against that?

[Bill Simmons]

Because you don't want to. Jerry West.

[Peter Schrager]

Jerry west is the greatest evaluator the NBA has ever seen.

[Bill Simmons]

Jerry West. So there's. So Jerry west is a positive. There's some that win. I'm just saying it's not a slam dunk. But I think part of the problem is if you and I are in that room with Tom Brady and we're like, yo, man, we think Darnold, like.

[Peter Schrager]

Look at my first.

[Bill Simmons]

And Brady's like, I'm out. I watched that game. He doesn't have it. I'm out. Are we going to argue with Tom Brady?

[Peter Schrager]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So it's just you now. You be now it's like this one voice that just sees what he wants to see.

[Peter Schrager]

Fascinated by the Raiders setup and John Spytek is the new gm. He was in Tampa for years and before that Denver and is really a good evaluator. And I interviewed him at the combine on camera for NFL Network and I said, all right, you got a lot of voices now because it's not just Brady. Pete Carroll is going to have opinions. Chip Kelly's the offensive coordinator. And then you've got, you know, all these different voices that are now new ownership group. You've got, you know, the Melman people. It's like, okay, now we've got all this. And whoever this quarterback's going to be is going to be their first big, like, unveiling of like, here's, here's our group decision. That's a lot of pressure on that quarterback. I don't think they're just going to go with a Minshew O'Connell thing. I think they're going to try to find.

[Bill Simmons]

No, they're going to get somebody. Could there be some new owner syndrome with this?

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Where they're like, yeah, you need to make a splash. Got to get somebody really good. Got to get Chip Kelly's offense, Got to find the right person, nice mobile, whatever.

[Peter Schrager]

And I would go through Brady's relationships with some of these guys. What's his relationship with Rogers? They've known each other 20 years. They've been competitive. What's his relationship with Russell Wilson? I can't believe they played a Super bowl together. Is Russell Wilson going to be the.

[Bill Simmons]

Quarterback of the Vegas Raiders like Geno Smith?

[Peter Schrager]

Do you trade for Geno, who has a great relationship with Pete Carroll?

[Bill Simmons]

If you're the Seahawks and you can get a high second round pick for Geno Smith and then spend 20 million a year on Sam Darnold for three years and just invest in your offensive line and be like, if we can actually block for this guy with the guys we have, we can actually do. I would do that.

[Peter Schrager]

That's why this is fun. It's such a weird class of quarterbacks because you have these potential hall of Famers and hall of Famers at the last stage of their career. I mean, cousins. We don't even know if he can move anymore. But he was going to be available if someone wants to trade for him.

[Bill Simmons]

Or available for tv. Yeah, Russell Wilson, you might be doing TV for him on network TBD in about six months.

[Peter Schrager]

Don't, Kirk, don't laugh. Amy Poehler might have a pod right next to Russell Wilson's. If we keep on going down the street.

[Bill Simmons]

Who knows?

[Peter Schrager]

This is it.

[Bill Simmons]

Who knows?

[Peter Schrager]

No joke though. Like this is the last stop on the tour and then you hope that you have a young guy that can come in as well. And then there's like this middle tier. I keep on saying Stidham's name. I think Jared Stidham is going to make a ton of more money than anyone expects because he's this like 28 year old guy who's been in multiple systems and when he plays.

[Bill Simmons]

Take a breath.

[Peter Schrager]

This is it, Patriots fans.

[Bill Simmons]

Jared SATA makes more mortgage than Sam Darnold. What are we doing?

[Peter Schrager]

He won't make more than Sam Darnold, but he will be a coveted free agent more than you would imagine because of the dearth of quarterbacks available and how important the position is at this point.

[Bill Simmons]

Like go, go take a look at Joe Milton's Week 18 game tape and talk yourself into that. If we're going trade for Joe Milton, don't laugh.

[Peter Schrager]

I mean, Joe Milton went. What round was he last year? 4th? 5th? 6th? Joe Milton could go for a 5th or 4th round pick like he was.

[Bill Simmons]

He was really good in that last game. Let's take a break. I got lots more to cover with you. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. It's winter or it's the tail end of winter. You can now get almost anything you need for the coldest stretch of the year delivered with UberEats. What do I mean by almost? Well, you can't get a snowplow delivered. You can get snow peas delivered. Snow angel. No. Angel hair pasta. Sure. Sunshine. That's a no. A bottle of wine? That's a yes. Yes. Uber Eats can get you that along with a side of garlic bread and creme brulee to top all of it off. Little angel hair pasta, bottle of wine. Sounds great. Get almost almost anything for your winter delivery with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol in select markets. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. All right, so quick tangent that I'm going to Bring back to the NFL. In the NBA, the bleakest situations right now are the Suns and the Sixers and now the Mavericks who made this catastrophic Luca trade. And then Kyrie's out for the year and it's just. You just look at those and you go, wow, this three, four year window here, pretty bleak. Who in your opinion, like, especially like being around everybody last week, who are the bleak franchises other than the Browns? We're just going to grandfather them in. The Browns have to be number one bleak. But who else is in that conversation?

[Peter Schrager]

The Browns is bleak because their star player also is demanding a trade and they don't plan on trading them. So you add on just, you know, terrible results and a question at quarterback and then you have the star player being unhappy. So that's the Browns.

[Bill Simmons]

That's. Would we say that's the gold standard of bleak right now? It has to be.

[Peter Schrager]

Yeah, but they were in the playoffs two years ago and they do have young talent. So it's like there's always this, like, you know, hope springs eternal. We get the right quarterback.

[Bill Simmons]

The Browns fans feeling good. All of a sudden they're like, shrigs, they're in on the Browns.

[Peter Schrager]

Yeah, Shriggs. I'm in on all 32, as you know. I think. I think the jets situation's pretty bleak right now in that they got. They feel like they got the right coach and they feel like they got the right gm, but you've got a bunch of young players who are up for giant contract extensions in the next couple years and you do not have a quarterback and you went down this road with Rogers and now it's like we're sort of a good team with names on the roster, but we have nothing to show for it. And we have a complete X factor at quarterback and we're just out of the top five. To actually draft one that we could just pick, we'd have to move and be. And be able to do that. So to me, I think the jets will be in on Justin Fields. I don't know if Justin Fields would leave Pittsburgh to go to the Jets. Now, money talks. But even if you get Justin Fields and you like Justin Fields and you think you've seen things from Justin Fields, if you're a Jets fan. Are you. Are you doing flips over? Okay, we're now ready to take on Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes and Joe Burrow with Justin Fields And Drake May. And Drake May. Sorry.

[Bill Simmons]

Thanks. Justin Fields. So you'd have Jets? Who else? Because I would have say at least with the jets, there's a lot of talent there. There is, but, you know, there's moves.

[Peter Schrager]

You've got a Garrett, and all these guys are going to be up for contracts, and they had all these first, you know, Bree Hall, Jermaine Johnson, Garrett Wilson, you name it. And of course, you mentioned they all got to get paid if you want to keep them.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, they're already letting DJ Reed go, which I thought was kind of shocking. He was good last year.

[Peter Schrager]

DJ Reed's a good player, and he's going to come to the Pats.

[Bill Simmons]

D.J. reed.

[Peter Schrager]

I think the Pats are going to be very aggressive in free agency, and I think they're going to load up this year.

[Bill Simmons]

Wait, hold on. I was going to end with the Pats. So jets, bleep Browns, Bleak. Would you throw the Saints in there? Yes.

[Peter Schrager]

Because it looks like there's still a question with Carr. Like, is Carr the quarterback? And they've got salary cap issue.

[Bill Simmons]

What's the question? How much do we hate ourselves?

[Peter Schrager]

How much do we do we keep him? It sounds like they, you know, the comments that were made by, by Mickey Loomis at the, at the combine was that they were on Derek Carr still. And I thought he would be in that same boat as Cousins and whatever. And you could, if you're the Titans and you got Brian Callahan, who coached Carr with the, with the Raiders, it's like, all right, well, give us Derek Carr and we'll figure it out. But it sounds like the Saints are all in on Derek Carr and they still have this bloated salary cap that they can't get out under. So I think the Saints is pretty bleak.

[Bill Simmons]

Wait, when you say he's in the same boat as Kirk Cousins, are you talking about the Titanic? What boat is that? Is that boat still floating?

[Peter Schrager]

We say this, and yet there are teams that are going to convince themselves that, oh, well, it's better than the alternative and we'll pay these guys real money like that. Where we're at.

[Bill Simmons]

What happened with the Raiders last year is the point for that. You just don't want to have a season where you're the Raiders and you realize, like, by the third preseason game, like, wow, our quarterbacks suck. This is going to be terrible.

[Peter Schrager]

You got Desmond Ritter at quarterback in week 16 on national TV, like, that's not where you want to be. Saints last year were rolling out Spencer Rattler in big games like it's quarterback is everything. And so the Saints, they're going. It sounds like they're going still with Derek Carr. That was the comment made. But we've seen these things change. But would you go. Situation is no good either.

[Bill Simmons]

Would you go bleak for the, for the Cowboys. Semi bleak. No, medium bleak.

[Peter Schrager]

Bleak in that it feels like the other two teams have surpassed them in their division and they're still going to have to pay Micah Parsons and they've got Dak on this contract and CD and like, I don't know how they're going to pay all these pending free agents that they have and that it's going in the wrong direction. But gosh, you know, you hire. You don't even do a full search and it's like we're just going to keep it going with Brian Schottenheimer. It's hard to, it's hard to look at your fan base and say, well, it's totally going to be different. Well, we just elevated the guy who was number two to Mike McCarthy and we're not going to have any new fresh talent besides what we already have and we missed the playoffs last year. The question is, how does Dak return from injury? Because he's the highest paid quarterback in the NFL.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. Well, the off season, especially this part and when we had an infrared agency draft is all about how do I convince my fan base to, to be potentially excited about something and, and to pay. And the Cowboys can be like, hey, Dak's healthy, we got Parsons, we have three of the best players in the league. Yeah, we're the Cowboys. I don't know running. What's the case for the Saints? We have no, we have no cap space and Derek Carr's coming back and we hired the ninth coach who got hired and we're in the NFC South. Never know.

[Peter Schrager]

Yeah. And you're, and you're in a market that, you know, it's a good team with a great tradition and a great city. But it's not like New Orleans is due to by the NFL as like the Cowboys or, you know, the Giants are one of these premier franchises.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you feel like it's less bleak in Jacksonville or we just. You. It's better.

[Peter Schrager]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Give me, give me stuff.

[Wesley Morris]

It can go.

[Peter Schrager]

This is like a social experiment in a lot of ways. I went out of my way at the combine to meet a lot of these people that I'd never met before. That's always what I like to do. I like to put a list down of like here are 10 names. They're all going to be in Indianapolis. Get to know them. They're young, they're up and coming and then you become friendly enough with them. Where over the years you bond a relationship and you form. They. They hired a 28 year old offensive coordinator in Grant Yudinsky. 28. And I was doing the math in my head. I'm like, all right, I know how old I am. I know where I was. Like when, when O.J. was on the chase and Ewing was playing Olajuwon. He wasn't born yet. And that's where I like, wow. Like, this is how young he is. Josh McCown tells me he was with him in Minnesota. This kid's brilliant. But that's your offensive coordinator, your head coach, Liam Cohen, who I've known, he was UMass's quarterback and I wrote a book with Victor Cruz way back when in 2011. And when Victor Cruz, like the sensation his quarterback was was Liam Cohen in college. So I got to know Liam then when we were working on this book and I've seen Liam Bowser. Liam is a young, really untested head coach. First time head coach. So you got that too. And then at GM they hired a guy named James Gladstone, who's 34 years old and he was with the, he was at the Rams and he was living in St. Louis while the Rams were in LA and he kind of was doing the scouting from a satellite office. But he was less needs like number two. And the Rams gave him a lot of credit for these recent drafts, including Puka Nkua and including some of these. Braden Fisk and you know, Jared Verse. That said, you're talking 34 year old GM, 28 year old offensive coordinator, first time head coach and then a first time defensive coordinator and Anthony Campanile. So to me, it's like, it's fun, it's fresh, it's different. It's. It's not hiring Urban Meyer or Doug Peterson.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a strategy where you.

[Peter Schrager]

It is different. And then you know, Shad Khan, whatever. And then like Tony Khan I talked to at the, at the super bowl and like he's talking about wrestling to me, like, and I think that's his priority is the aew.

[Bill Simmons]

And he's like, he writes every episode. He writes.

[Peter Schrager]

It's amazing. His eyes are all darting all over the place, talking Shreks.

[Bill Simmons]

You should do something where you come into the ring and you get hit with a chair.

[Peter Schrager]

MJF is gonna knock you out with a Burberry scarf on.

[Bill Simmons]

He's probably trying to bookie in. Rapaport and Schultz have some sort of Starbucks match.

[Peter Schrager]

He would love that.

[Bill Simmons]

They can whip LATTES at each other.

[Peter Schrager]

Big sponsor Starbucks, or in this case, maybe Duncan. But, like, I honestly think that it's like this football experiment where it's like, let's just do fresh eyes and young and higher guys and like, obviously, I love that. I love that. I hate going retread. I don't like the fact that we just typically are like, oh, well, this guy worked for this guy. And then we just hire him. Like, they're all fresh faces and Jacksonville's fun to me.

[Bill Simmons]

Now, I'm going to give you a possible bleak candidate and you're going to be upset.

[Peter Schrager]

Why are we so negative? Let's be positive.

[Bill Simmons]

This is the last one. I'm going positive. One second.

[Peter Schrager]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Are the Dolphins in the bleak zone?

[Peter Schrager]

It was bleak.

[Bill Simmons]

Zyree probably pushing for the trade. The McDaniel, even though he got an extension. I'm sure he's, he's definitely on first coast fired watch. I would think Tua, who knows? Salary cap classic salary cap team where they just, they had to pay these guys and now it's all fucked up. Like, I, I. And they're in a division with the Bills. The Pats are going to be better. The jets won't be better. But I wonder if they're on bleak watch here.

[Peter Schrager]

Here's where I would say there's a possible turn in that, like, first of all, a lot of these teams, they show up at the combine. They do media. Maybe Tuesday, Wednesday, they fulfill that thing, maybe they'll stay Thursday, then they're out of there. Mike McDaniel, Chris Greer and Dan Marino were in that Dolphin suite until the bitter, bitter end, when the offensive linemen were working out on Sunday and they were locked in.

[Bill Simmons]

What's he doing?

[Peter Schrager]

Dan Marino's got an executive role right now with the Dolphins working with the team, and we're talking about former players and Tom Brady and all this stuff. Now Dan Marino, he's present, he's got a voice. They brought him back into the fold a couple of years ago, and he was at the combine and fully engaged with all of it. Now, last year's draft, they hit with Chop Robinson. He was really good for them as a running back.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he was good. I liked him.

[Peter Schrager]

Jalen Wright, the running back. But to your point, when TUA went down, they weren't ready for that kind of adversity and things went off the rails. And you saw Tyreek Hill and his comments in that final game about, you know, I, I, it just was like desolate and it was the kind of thing you Would never want to hear from a veteran leader. That said, Dolphins, they still have a ton of talent on that roster, and I. I do think the players still respond to McDaniel.

[Bill Simmons]

So.

[Peter Schrager]

Okay, I'm not bleak on the Dolphins.

[Bill Simmons]

And I'm not sure I think that, but.

[Peter Schrager]

Well, what do you think on Tua? Like, they paid him.

[Bill Simmons]

He was injured Again, I have real concerns about McDaniel. I have real concerns about Tua, and I have real concerns about we're going to wake up three days from now, and Tyreek Hill's like, I want to be a charger. Yeah, let's make that happen, guys.

[Peter Schrager]

It would be the Chiefs, not the Chargers. He's still like, he tweets every other day about how much he loves.

[Bill Simmons]

It'd be the Chiefs.

[Peter Schrager]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Is that even possible? The Chiefs just have an unlimited salary cap. I don't know how they do it. And it's like, hey, we're going to franchise tag our left guard.

[Peter Schrager]

And Andy's magic. Andy will trade you away. Andy will cut you. And then, you know the players long. Andy. Yeah, they want to go play for him again. By the way, you saw the. You saw the John Cena, you know, dropping the mic. You saw that. That's. That's Mahomes this year. That's.

[Bill Simmons]

That's.

[Peter Schrager]

That's where he's at right now. I think, like, he's gone villain. Like, everyone just good. I think. I think we're gonna have a different.

[Bill Simmons]

Incredibly disappointing season by his standards. Last year, the super bowl was a disaster. So I hope he's motivated the anti bleak. Watch the. You go to combine, and these teams are like, it's like the sky has opened. It's after it's rained for a week straight, and all of a sudden it's the first sunny day, and everybody's like, I want to go outside. We don't have to talk about the Pats. I talk about them too much. We can. Well, we can do that at the very end, but who else is in that?

[Peter Schrager]

Washington.

[Bill Simmons]

The skies have open.

[Peter Schrager]

Washington. It is like. Like the Angels. And last year at the combine, I interviewed Adam Peters on camera. He's a GM coming from San Francisco. First time gm, super nervous on NFL Network beforehand, what questions are we gonna do? Like, and then this year comes in all swagged out. Has like, Right.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, he's wearing the Polinka jacket.

[Peter Schrager]

No doubt. He's got the jacket. He's got the custom Jordans. He comes in, he's like, ask me anything. Let's Go.

[Bill Simmons]

Let's go.

[Peter Schrager]

They trade.

[Bill Simmons]

Ask me how great Jada Daniels in Daniels is. I would love to talk about that.

[Peter Schrager]

They have a ton of salary cap space. Everyone loves their coach. Like, Dan Quinn's got that Andy Reid thing where, like, Tigers just love him. And, you know, they just trade for Debo. And I do want to say this. I think people misread the NFL. Like, the Cowboys got crushed because they traded a fourth rounder for Jonathan Mingo. And everyone's like, how could you. How could you trade a fourth rounder for Mingo? And they trade a fifth rounder and they get Debo. They're taking on Deebo Samuel's entire contract. So that's his salary, though.

[Bill Simmons]

The Niners, it was basically them cutting.

[Peter Schrager]

Him, and that was the team that was willing to take it. And Adam Peters drafted Debo in San Fran, and Anthony Lynn coached him. And Cliff is like, please bring him. Like, he'll be motivated and we'll make it work.

[Bill Simmons]

Can I give you my. Can I give you my 32nd Debo take. Yeah. As an intermission. San Francisco being like, yeah, we're good. Take them. It reminded me of the Celtics with Marcus Smart. And this is where I bring the Celtics into a football podcast.

[Peter Schrager]

Mine.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, they knew something. Well, it was. And watching him. And this was the case Priscilla and I made on the podcast after that trade. It was like, that dude's body's been through a lot. We watched him for the last nine years. He took a million charges. He was on the floor all the time. And I think they're getting out a year too early instead of a year too late with his body. So what happens? He goes to Memphis. He breaks down, and he has not been healthy ever since.

[Peter Schrager]

I think he's like, where's he playing now?

[Bill Simmons]

I saw a picture of him last week. Yeah, he's like a veteran on Washington. So I look at Deebo, and like you, I watch football every week. Deebo took a fucking ton of hits. The way they used him, he was like a crash test dummy. And I just wonder if they were like, I think we took this as far as we can go. Let. If it starts to dip, it could be on somebody else's team.

[Peter Schrager]

Absolutely, you're right. But in the same breath, like, Washington knows what they're inheriting. Like, Cliff watched every snap of Debo's play.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, that's like. It's like this incredible toy for Cliff. Holy shit.

[Peter Schrager]

He cannot wait. And he's like, please.

[Bill Simmons]

And also, he's gonna have 40 Debo plays.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Peter Schrager]

And also he was 20 pounds overweight. Whatever you want to say. Like. And now he's going to the final year of his contract. Give me a motivated like chip on his shoulder and a contract year.

[Bill Simmons]

Debo.

[Peter Schrager]

Like, sure. So like it wasn't like it was a false.

[Bill Simmons]

That was like you on TV last year. That was the same thing. I just felt like a giant chip on your shoulder. Let's go.

[Peter Schrager]

You want to disrespect Debo and Schrager, you're going to get the best of us.

[Wesley Morris]

I'll do anything.

[Bill Simmons]

I'll do any hit.

[Peter Schrager]

Send me anywhere.

[Bill Simmons]

Contract year. Let's go. The. So the Washington thing, the vibes are unbelievable.

[Peter Schrager]

Unbelievable.

[Bill Simmons]

Great coach, great GM franchise qb, most beloved guy in Washington. Even more than Ovechkin House is like can't even come up with somebody on par with him at this point. You have to go back to like the Gibbs era. Who else is the. The skies have parted.

[Peter Schrager]

Skies. Sky.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you say Chargers? Rosie. Rosie. Chargers or not? Totally.

[Peter Schrager]

Season ended weird that lost to Houston. So there's kind of like a bad.

[Bill Simmons]

Taste and also might be out.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Peter Schrager]

I wouldn't say Chargers. I'm trying to think. I'm going, oh, Denver, Denver. Those guys, Denver, they are super high on what they've got all young players. Bo Nicks. I had a really cool opportunity. Friday night the Broncos do a team dinner at the combine and it's everyone from the team doctor to. To the. The head coach to like the intern. Anyone who's in Indianapolis, I'd say 60 people. And Sean Payton, you know, does a big team dinner. I don't think any other teams do this in this way. And they rent out a room at Prime 3, which is the big steakhouse. And Peyton let me come in and just hang with them at the table. And when you feel like good vibes, good vibes team, everyone's busting balls, everyone's laughing, everyone is having a great. And they have such confidence in this quarterback that they're like, we're set. This has been the albatross around this franchise since Peyton Manning left. We finally got our guy and they will be active in free agency and they will get a good running.

[Bill Simmons]

And they have a little more money this year, right?

[Peter Schrager]

Yeah. Finally have money. They've had no money. But like up front last year, like Zach Allen had a career year when they're paying him, you know, but Alex Singleton was great. Like and then they've got certain this amazing corner. They're set. They are going to get A running back in this draft. And that's always been Sean Payton's, like, favorite position to tinker with. And they haven't had. He calls it the Joker. It's like the Alvin Camara, the Darren Sprouls, the Pierre Thomas, that type. The guy that can catch out of the backfield, run in the backfield.

[Bill Simmons]

So. And there's good, like, high second round running back candidates for that. Yeah.

[Peter Schrager]

Running back draft. And you can sit there and on day two, pick up a guy who's going to pick up a thousand yards and, you know, 60 catches. So I'd say Denver and Washington, both based on the young quarterback. And then New England. You don't want to talk about him, but, like, the optimism is sky high around the Patriots. And also they become.

[Bill Simmons]

And with me and nephew Kyle, and every time we're together, Kyle's like. Kyle's waiting for Abdul Carter to fall to 4 because of some amorphous foot thing, and then he's buying the jersey. Like, that day, it's like it become.

[Peter Schrager]

All of a sudden a desirable place to play, too. And the free agents.

[Bill Simmons]

Funny how that works when you have a good quarterback and a good coach. It's funny how that shifts.

[Peter Schrager]

No doubt. You know, the fourth overall pick is interesting for them because Hunter or Carter could be there if the quarterbacks do go in the top four. And even if they don't, I think Will Howard's a real possibility or.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Peter Schrager]

The lineman from lsu.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, Will Campbell.

[Peter Schrager]

Campbell, sorry. Not the Ohio State quarterback.

[Bill Simmons]

No, but they. He had the short arms. I was on multiple short arm threads.

[Peter Schrager]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

So he couldn't even 33 inches with this reach. How's he gonna hold back Michael Parsons with those short arms?

[Peter Schrager]

The other two names would be Mason Graham, who I think you're. You're high on, right?

[Bill Simmons]

I'm high.

[Peter Schrager]

Michigan.

[Bill Simmons]

Now I'm. McShay says there's three elite guys in the draft, and that was how I was feeling anyway. Knowing nothing but doing all the prep. And it just feels like. But the thing is, with defensive tackle, that's the easiest position to get in free agency. There's a million of them.

[Peter Schrager]

True.

[Bill Simmons]

If you're trying to put together a team of assets, which is what they need to do, that's probably not where you go. But I want an. I want an All Pro in this draft. You have to get an all Pro in this draft.

[Peter Schrager]

So I'm going to put this out here now because his draft stock is slipping because he didn't do anything at the combine. And all that I don't think 4 overall is so crazy for this Trent Aurora McMillan out of Arizona also known as they like yeah oh there's a lot of fans in the league and you're talking about the comparison starts at Drake London but it can go even higher. This huge wingspan and this huge upside 6 foot 6 basketball body out of Arizona. Jed Fish was his coach at Arizona and Jed Fish has a lot of NFL people and he has been raving about this guy for years. Didn't do anything at the combine but interviewed everywhere and apparently is a great kid. Nickname is T. Mac. I don't see him in the top 10 of any of these mock drafts and I know that everyone loved what Matthew golden the wide receiver out of Texas did and is like he's the guy. I would be shocked if T. Mac falls out of the top 10 and I would think Patriots F4 might be a little rich but if you're no.

[Bill Simmons]

That'S a trade back that could be your right flip picks with the jets or the Saints or whoever and you or the even Vegas are you scarred.

[Peter Schrager]

By Keanu what's his name By Nikhil Harry of going to the state of Arizona for a wide receiver.

[Bill Simmons]

The only thing that worries me with tmac is their wide receiver class is so bad that when somebody's the best looking person at a party of ugly people they look fucking so handsome or beautiful and you're like the combine, you.

[Wesley Morris]

Should see it dude.

[Peter Schrager]

You would walk into one of these steakhouses you would vomit. It is so ugly and it's all over the country. It's all of us in the media and everyone's got the same exact look. It's a button down with an ill fitting blazer and jeans and like it.

[Bill Simmons]

Sounds great and like maybe like someone.

[Peter Schrager]

Trying to have like a cool pair of Jordans just doesn't work. But like that's, that's the look.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, well but that's what worries me. But if they want him I, I think you he's in the 8 to 12 range. I don't think they can't take they well the team that I could see taking him is Jacksonville at 5 because it seems like it's their decades mission to just keep spending capital on wide receivers to try to talk themselves into Trevor Lawrence the Patriots can't block. I'm just going to say that they can't take will Campbell at 4 because we don't know if he's a left tackle or guard. But I think, I think that moving back into the 6 to 10 range and taking a receiver tackle, it's hard to argue with. But you'd have to move back. You have to have a team wanting to move up. That's the other thing.

[Peter Schrager]

It's also like, and I work for the NFL Network and I'm going to be doing the draft. Like, it is not the draft class of years prior. There are no. You said three blue chip guys and I think Mason Graham is borderline blue chip. Like Travis Hunter.

[Bill Simmons]

I could really see, I can see Carter for the Pats, though.

[Peter Schrager]

Oh, dude.

[Bill Simmons]

I think if there's a scenario where people get worried about, well, what's going on with this foot or any of that shit, and two quarterbacks go in the top three and Hunter goes at like, it's Carter. That would be the dream.

[Peter Schrager]

It's Carter.

[Bill Simmons]

Willie McGinnis, the 96 all over, 95 or 94. Whenever we got him all over again.

[Peter Schrager]

Did Willie, did Willie fall in the draft for parcel?

[Bill Simmons]

No, we took him like fourth or fifth.

[Peter Schrager]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And it was like, hey, this guy is like going to be our. This guy is going to go chase the quarterback now for the next 10 years for you guys.

[Peter Schrager]

Yeah. Carter would be a home run. And it's. Him and Hunter are like the two names. And then you got this other bucket of the quarterbacks where if you're doing an overall players list, they're probably 7, 8, 9, 10, like, if you want to go that way, they're not. And it's just the great unknown. And it's like, what do you prefer? And it's, I mean, truly, after like the fifth or sixth pick, it is a complete crapshoot to like pick 38, they say as far as like ranking and stacking these players. So not the richest class, but it's also the most intriguing.

[Bill Simmons]

At the combine, we did bleak, we did happy. Who's the. What the fuck is that team doing? Team that people were just kind of gossiping about. Like, they were like, you know, the friend in the, the friend in the neighborhood who like, what's going on in that house?

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Just saw some car out there at three in the morning. What? What?

[Peter Schrager]

Cincinnati is a little bit of a question mark. Just because they have such a big off season ahead and it's, it's really going to be a lot of cap gymnastics. But they have told every agent, they have told every team, like, their goal is to bring all three of these guys back. And that's Jamar, Chase, T. Higgins and Trey Hendrickson.

[Bill Simmons]

Franchise tagged Higgins already.

[Peter Schrager]

They did. But the intention is not to have him play on another franchise tag. The intention for them is to sign all three of these guys to long term deals. And if I was to stack it, I would say Jamar Chase is their first priority. T. Higgins is their second priority. And then Trey Hendrickson, who led the NFL in sacks and was second overall and defensive player of the year, he would be probably the third priority, which makes him a potential free agent to be signed.

[Bill Simmons]

Wow. So we always talk about how you can basically afford three giant guys in the NFL the way they play.

[Peter Schrager]

They want all three.

[Bill Simmons]

And if you can pull off four, well, you got to count Burrow, though. Burrow.

[Peter Schrager]

Burrow's got this huge contract and Burrow.

[Bill Simmons]

So if you're doing Burrow with the two receivers, that's an insane use of cap. It's insane.

[Wesley Morris]

And also it's not.

[Bill Simmons]

They just waived Alex Kappa too.

[Peter Schrager]

They waived Alex Kappa, which was undoing.

[Bill Simmons]

Although he didn't have a great year. But. But it's losing guys already.

[Peter Schrager]

They're going to have to. They're going to have to waive guys.

[Bill Simmons]

And you can't build a team around a quarterback and two receivers. That's going to work.

[Peter Schrager]

They're going to try.

[Bill Simmons]

And last year they're like the Pats. They're cheap. I mean, variables tried to change the Pats, but Bengals are cheap. Pats are cheap. So on top of. At least the Chiefs are like spending when they try to do this gymnastic.

[Peter Schrager]

They would bristle at the cheap thing. I think historically they're viewed as cheap. So Mike Brown's granddaughter. Mike Brown's granddaughter, Elizabeth Blackburn, who's. Or Katie Blackburn. No, Elizabeth is the granddaughter of Mike Brown. She's now taking over a little bit more. And like, it's all about, let's make this team fun, let's make this team marketable, and let's spend money. Like, let's spend money.

[Wesley Morris]

We have it.

[Peter Schrager]

We have to have a cap thing. So, like, that's their intention. But Duke Tobin and Zach Taylor have a giant. Giant few weeks ahead of them right now. And you already saw that Jamar Chase is posting things and T. Higgins is posting things.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, Burrow will be a dick, don't you think? Like, if it gets to the point he will put. He will be like an NBA star putting pressure on them 100%.

[Peter Schrager]

He already has been publicly. You know, you don't do radio row interviews and talk about company business. He was doing that. So I think Cincinnati, a lot of eyes are on them because historically they have this, this Feeling of, you know, small market team, 32nd market, they don't spend money. It's a family run business. And now you finally have put yourself in this position where like you have to pay up, there's nothing left. It's. It's not going to be good feelings. It's not going to be, it's going to be money. Are you going to spend the money and do you have a way to use the cap gymnastics and.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, they put up 40 points.

[Peter Schrager]

They put up 40 points every game last year and they still lost. So if you're focusing on offense and you're letting the defensive player of the year, the runner up walk out, is where your priorities at?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, it's Louis Amarillo. Amarillo's fault. The, the Higgins chase. When they play together with Burrow, the numbers are undeniable. They're undeniable.

[Peter Schrager]

And they're also the most entertaining team in the league.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. But if you're looking at Higgins and SHIELD had him as his number two free agent. He had Darnold number one. Only because there's no quarterbacks. But the Higgins thing would be, well, what about the games without Chase? Hmm. And you look at those, what happens when the defense is targeted against him versus I think T. Higgins is amazing.

[Peter Schrager]

I think he's.

[Bill Simmons]

That would be my dream Pats guy. I wouldn't give up the first pick for him, obviously, but the second pick, the second rounder, I would do in a hard go.

[Peter Schrager]

Watch what he did with Jake Browning last year. At the end of the season, they were going to T. Higgins on every big play against Minnesota on that Saturday game. And like Higgins is a true number one. And if they can get both those guys back, great. Back to Darnold really quick.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Peter Schrager]

If you're Minnesota and they're not franchise high and they're going to let them hit the market. Okay, you. What does it say to JJ McCarthy if you do bring him back on a 25 to 30 million dollars contract? Does it tell the rest of the league that J.J. mcCarthy, we're not. Like this is the bind with Minnesota. Like they don't know what they have in J.J. mcCarthy and you could read all the positive press like they don't know what they have in J.J. mcCarthy. He was injured all last year. He was on the sidelines. Like they haven't seen him play. So it's not like they know if.

[Bill Simmons]

You take a guy in the top 10, he's got to be your quarterback.

[Peter Schrager]

Okay. So you let, you let Darnold walk out the door you don't. You don't say, let's try to 2 for 35. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you have it out after one year, like one of those type of deals?

[Peter Schrager]

And if you're Darnold, you know, you played your best football with Kevin O'Connell. Let me do it one more year and then I. Then I can maybe break the bank. Like, I think. I think they're going to make a very concerted effort.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm Darnold. I'm like, by the way, I had Covid those last two games. Sorry. Sorry, guys.

[Peter Schrager]

I want to tell you, I can't.

[Bill Simmons]

Believe you guys didn't get sick.

[Peter Schrager]

Why'd you make me play?

[Bill Simmons]

Should it make me nervous that the Pats are probably going to spend on Ronnie Stanley? Because I still don't understand why the Ravens would let Ronnie Stanley go as their left tackle.

[Peter Schrager]

It's. The Ravens have a different salary cap situation and different team.

[Bill Simmons]

And I'm not nervous. Play.

[Peter Schrager]

I mean, if I'm the Patriots, I'm looking at Zach Bond. If the Eagles let him out, I'm looking at Josh Sweat. I'm looking at Milton Williams.

[Bill Simmons]

They said they didn't like Josh Sweat. I think the. I think Bond is a real possibility, though.

[Peter Schrager]

Bond would be great. And Sweat is good. And like Milton Williams. Good. The other name, I don't know if, like Nick Bolton from the Chiefs, like, unbelievable linebacker. They can get Nick Bolton. I mean, it's Robert Spillane. Like, these are like real names that can add to this team.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the move is what you. What the commanders did last year, getting those guys that weren't the A list guys, but they were like the. It's almost like the White Lotus cast strategy.

[Peter Schrager]

No doubt.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like, we're gonna get Carrie. Bring me Carrie. She's a really good act. Yeah. Carrie Coons a really good actress. Washington just went out and got like nine Carrie Coons.

[Peter Schrager]

Yes. Would that be Zach Ertz or Patrick Schwarzenegger? I think so.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Maybe it does.

[Peter Schrager]

Austin Ekeler starring as Leslie Bibb.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Austin Eckler is. Is Greg Gary the guy, the evil guy?

[Peter Schrager]

I mean, that guy's been in all three seasons. And I mean, just consistently say a word on the episodes. Just look on camera.

[Bill Simmons]

Has that. And he has. He was the drug dealer. 90210. He's got one of the great IMDb's of all time. Yeah. He got. He got Dylan hooked on drugs. Khalil Mack. What are the Chargers doing? Bosa and Mack.

[Peter Schrager]

Yeah. They lose salary. They could. They could we'll see. That's why I'm not like, I want to wait and see on that. And this is also Joe Ortiz who comes from the Ravens. It's his first real off season. Last year he was a GM and they drafted well. But like this is now, you gotta, you know, it's time to make some decisions that might not be as easy as just drafting and signing players.

[Bill Simmons]

Last question. Houston is the most interesting off season team to me because I don't know how far away they are from being impactful. I thought they were in the mix last year, especially if you look back at how the season went, how they were able to play against the Chiefs. Defensively, what they were missing feels easy to, easy to add. I like their coaching staff. I like their division. They're in a great division like that. That could easily be like a 14 and 3 team next year.

[Peter Schrager]

You were high on them last year.

[Bill Simmons]

I was. They had bad luck.

[Peter Schrager]

No, they finished strong and they, I.

[Bill Simmons]

Know, but they did got hurt. They lost two receivers. By the time we got to the.

[Peter Schrager]

Playoffs, Diggs will be a free agent likely. Like he's going to be gone. Okay. What was really interesting to me was Bobby Slowik was one of the offensive masterminds interviewing for head coaching jobs. Two years ago, after they had this great successional season, they didn't think they got enough out of the offense. They hire their offensive coordinator and then they go to the Rams and they get Nick Kaley who was, you know, Wonderkin under Sean McVeigh. They bring Kaylee in and they also, with this offense, like they didn't have, like you said, Stefan Diggs, they didn't have Tank Dell in the last few weeks of the season. And they still, in that Chiefs game, move the ball up and down the field. If they don't have two botched special teams plays and a block kick and get sacked eight times like they, they're in that game.

[Bill Simmons]

In retrospect, that was the red flag game for the Super Bowl. Looking back as I still continue to kick myself for not just having the balls. Take Philly.

[Peter Schrager]

That Houston game was quite a few pods.

[Bill Simmons]

That Houston game was, was a bad sign for the Chiefs. No, that game, they hung around like they did with the, I don't know.

[Peter Schrager]

Block field goals, muffed kickoffs. Like they got everything from the Texans and they couldn't put them away until the very end. So there was some, some red flags there. But what are you going to do? But I pick. I didn't bet, but I picked on. I picked the Chiefs to win in that super bowl, too. And I've heard from Philly fans the entire last month, so it's all good.

[Bill Simmons]

We have to go. I have to go talk to Wesley Morris about the Oscars.

[Peter Schrager]

Oscars. Can I tell you, proudly have not seen any of these movies. Now I'll go see one of them. I'll go see Nora.

[Bill Simmons]

Great move. Oh, Nora's good. You should see Nora.

[Peter Schrager]

Is it good?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Shrags. We'll talk to you before the draft. Great to see you as always.

[Peter Schrager]

You're the man, Bill. Thank you.

[Bill Simmons]

This episode is brought to you by vrbo Private vacation Rentals. With vrbo, you always get the whole house so you and your fellow fans can cheer on your team in peace. What's worse than watching a game with somebody who's not rooting for the same team? You're rooting for nothing. But that's why if you book a vacation house with vrbo, you know all the people in your house. They'll be friends. They'll be family. Ideally, they'll be the ones who also root for my teams. Plan a winning vacation. Make it a vrbo. This episode is brought to you by Redfin. I love looking at real estate. You could be in the market to buy or rent, whatever it is. You might just like scrolling around, seeing what's out there. You might like checking out neighborhoods, then go into Google Earth and then checking out the overhead thing in the neighborhood. I don't know, whatever floats your boat. You might like looking at big mansions on the water in Massachusetts. I can neither confirm or deny. I've never done that. Whatever reason you're looking, I recommend the Redfin app. Redfin. It's gotten better every single year. It makes it fun to search all the homes for sale, apartments for rent in your neighborhood, filter for price. Beds, baths, square footage, so much more. And if you find a place you love, Redfin makes it really easy to go see it in person. Schedule a tour right now from the app. Plus, if you're looking to sell, Redfin agents know how to get you the best price possible for your home. That's because they close twice as many deals as other agents, and with the listing fee as low as 1%, Redfin's fees are half of what others often charge, which means you'll have more money to put toward your next home. So whether you're looking to buy, rent, or sell, Redfin's got you covered. Download the Redfin app to get started. My old, longtime friend Wesley Morris is here. We used to Work together at Grantlin. He's at the New York Times. Did not talk to him right before the Oscars, although we talked a couple months ago. We were waiting until after the Oscars, which was a very strange Oscars and was dominated by a movie called Anora Chalamet is not. I did like. Anora Chalamet did not win. Demi Moore did not win. I'm going to start here. And we haven't talked. We've only texted a little bit. I was so happy Mikey Madison won. I thought that was the best performance of any movie I saw. And I did not see the Brutalist yet, but I thought she was awesome. And this whole. Sometimes this will happen in sports, too, where they'll just decide, well, Demi Moore, she's been waiting forever. She's got to win. And that was an important movie. And I was just like, what the fuck? Like, Mikey Madison should win. Now, do you agree or disagree with that? Because I feel like you might disagree.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, okay. I disagree with everything. I think. What do I. Okay, I. First of all, I just want to be clear. I. I have no deep, visceral problem with Mikey Madison winning. I actually was. I was happy for the surprise of it. Of those five nominees, I wasn't terribly excited about. I loved Fernando Torres, and I'm still here. I think that Demi Moore. We can talk about what Demi Moore is doing in the substance that I think made her deserving of an Oscar. Okay. But my two favorite performances are two of my very favorite performances from last year. Their movies got no nominations. And I just was kind of like, there needs to be an asterisk next to these five.

[Bill Simmons]

Who were the two performances?

[Wesley Morris]

Nicole Kidman and Baby Girl.

[Bill Simmons]

She was really good in that. I can't believe she didn't get nominated, actually, for that.

[Wesley Morris]

That is one of the greatest. I mean, this is true of Nicole Kidman in general in the last, like, 15 years. But that performance in Baby Girl is one of the greatest feats of psychological acting I have ever seen. I don't know how. I'm. I'm not an actor, and I don't know how you simulate any of the things that Nicole Kidman was asked to do. And Harris Dickman.

[Bill Simmons]

Or is it.

[Wesley Morris]

Is it Harris Dickson? Dickinson.

[Bill Simmons]

Dickinson. I think he.

[Wesley Morris]

He is also great. That is. That is one of the top. That's. His performance is one of the top five performances I saw last year.

[Bill Simmons]

Would that be supporting actor for you or actor?

[Wesley Morris]

Supporting. I can live with supporting. We can talk about category. Category fraud, too. Yeah. Because two of Our winners, total category, fraudsters. And I. Anyway, I think that Mikey Madison is good in that movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

My problem with, with the performance is only that the four guys she is working with in this film are extraordinary. All four of those guys is great. And are. All four of those guys are great. And you know, Yora, Boris, Love. I, I'm. I'm so out of practice with these names. I. I'm going to get some of them wrong. But, you know, to single him out is right because, you know, he's got the scene at the end in the car, which is, which is her great moment as an actor too, in this movie. I like Honora. I like it more than fine, but I don't love it.

[Bill Simmons]

That's how I felt.

[Wesley Morris]

I think that I'd be curious to hear you talk about what you love about Mikey Madison so much.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought it was a very strange movie year. I didn't feel like a lot of stuff jumped out. And we always talk about how it's a little bit like sports where you look back years later and like, oh, what was that year? Oh, that was the year Nora won. All this stuff. I just thought I didn't know her really at all other than TV stuff. And, you know, she was once upon.

[Wesley Morris]

A time in Hollywood, working actress.

[Bill Simmons]

She was like the 11th person. And once upon a time in Hollywood.

[Wesley Morris]

True.

[Bill Simmons]

I just felt like. I like those movies sometimes where it's just like, oh, this person's a star. I'm watching her become a star during the movie. I thought it was a pretty, pretty out there performance. It's a crazy movie that I think has some flaws, which we talked about in the past, but I just thought it was a really memorable performance. But I also felt that way about Nicole Kidman. If she had won in that category over, I still wouldn't have agreed, but I would have understood it.

[Wesley Morris]

Here's what I'll say about Demimo. I. There's a. There's a shot at the beginning or toward the beginning of this film where she has left the set of her aerobics instruction show, her big hit fitness show. She's going to the bathroom. And on our. On our walk from the studio, I believe, or maybe the executives. I don't exactly know what. Where the hallway is going to and leading. I know he's going to the bathroom. But anyway, there are all of these photos of various versions of Elizabeth Sparkle, Demi Moore's character in the Substance on the Wall, and they're all from different periods of this character's life. And I just felt like I was also watching the hall of Demi Moore. And all those portraits correspond, at least, at least in my brain. They corresponded to some moment in Demi Moore's cultural life and her movie star life. And then she gets to the bathroom and I believe there's like somebody's cleaning the women's room. So what does she have to do? She goes into the men's bathroom. That is the Demi Moore's shot or sequence maybe ever. And this movie is so dialed in in its way. Cause it's not about America. It's not about. It's like set in a kind of fictionalized Hollywood. We can talk about the kind of European ification and the sort of the ways in which non American filmmakers and ideas have officially made an inexorable mark on the Academy Awards. And the Academy itself. It's just not going anywhere anytime soon. So we have to think about what the Oscars even are going forward. But anyway, this movie to me. And once she gets into the bathroom, you have the Dennis Quaid character in the bathroom talking about how over the hill Demi Moore is as an actress or you know, Elizabeth Sparkle is as an actress. And I, from that sequence forward, this movie was as much about the actor playing this part as it was about the character she's playing. And the total I have never seen. Demi Moore is committed to a lot of parts. I mean, GI Jane being maybe the ultimate striptease, being an ultimate like part commitment. She's never been the strongest line reader. She's never been the most convincing when she has to hit an upper register. Like anger is not something like verbal anger, verbally expressed anger. But she can make her face twitch. Her eyes can do that. Like, you know, like they're, they're, yeah, they're, they're like sizzling a little bit when she's, when she's suffering and. But her lower register, you know, you know, suck my dick, that, that, that line. And GI Jane, I mean she can sell those lower register rages. But this was something new for me with Demi Moore where like her physical commitment to the part had a lot of mistakes.

[Bill Simmons]

You're bringing in your 40 plus year history with her movies and that became part of the performance for you.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes, and I think that, that, I think that's fair.

[Bill Simmons]

I get it. Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

But if you're, I'm.

[Bill Simmons]

Can I, can I do my history?

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, but can I just real quick, like, if you're an Iranian voter, do you care about 40 years of.

[Bill Simmons]

You don't. You're just doing Best performance. Just like. Right, right, right. I went back to be more in General Hospital because I was watching General Hospital in the early 80s. That's where she broke in. Was with her through the Brat Pack years. It was amazing to watch her. It felt like she fizzled out and then became a big star. I think she was really under it. Like we did Disclosure for rewatchable. She's just great in that movie. She's just a 10 out of 10. Smoking hot, incredibly confident. But I swear to God, I think the best scene of her entire career. You're going to laugh. And this is one of my takes that I'll probably take shit for and I don't really care.

[Wesley Morris]

You're you. You're used to it. Go on.

[Bill Simmons]

When. When Rob Lowe breaks up with her in a belt last night.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh.

[Bill Simmons]

And he says he doesn't love her anymore. I honestly think that's the best acting moment of her career. The weight. And apparently he ad libbed it and it wasn't in there. But the way she reacts to it, you could just see it go through her entire body. I think she's had some really great acting moments over there.

[Wesley Morris]

I was just about to say, Bill, there's so many moments like that.

[Bill Simmons]

Like G.I. jane's another one. Disclosures like that. I think she good in Ghost. I think in St. Elmo's Fire, she has a couple moments where you're like, I would run through fiery hell to get this girl to like me. Right. And she's a 101 where I don't even know. There's a little Kathleen Turner in there just because of her voice. But she was drop dead beautiful in the 80s and then kind of transformed over the 90s. So we've been there the whole time with her. But part of what I thought was interesting about this movie, because you're right, it's a career retrospective of her. I actually feel like her career should have been better. I think.

[Wesley Morris]

I think she could have made this.

[Bill Simmons]

I think she could have made better movie choices when she had her peak. Like, you think about even like making a movie like Striptease. That was like a paycheck movie. That's like what we get mad at some actors doing, right?

[Wesley Morris]

But you know, Striptease. Wait, let's go.

[Bill Simmons]

That's like, I want to work with my husband. That movie sucks. I don't like that movie.

[Peter Schrager]

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

[Bill Simmons]

No, your movie sucks.

[Wesley Morris]

You're throwing too much at me.

[Bill Simmons]

I know.

[Wesley Morris]

Too much at me. Hold up. Wait. Let's Go back to Striptease. That movie was more than a paycheck movie like it was, I believe. Well, it, it did pay her a lot, if memory.

[Bill Simmons]

She became the biggest, biggest contract. That was the biggest salary anyone made in Hollywood.

[Wesley Morris]

But it was also at the peak of her, of her demeanness. Right? She had a great 1990s. She had, I mean, she was, she was one. She was a top five box office draw. She was in Indecent Proposal.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, well, she's a decent proposal. I'm not arguing the success. I just wish there were a couple awesome movies in there where she was like going for an Oscar. And I don't think that was even on the radar for her.

[Wesley Morris]

I don't think she had that in her is the thing like, think about the Scarlet Leopard.

[Bill Simmons]

So that's where we disagree. I think, I think she had it in her.

[Peter Schrager]

You.

[Wesley Morris]

What do you think happened? Because it's not like she didn't.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think she had the right part. What if she was the. What if she was the prostitute and leaving Las Vegas instead of Elizabeth Shue? Probably too old.

[Wesley Morris]

It wouldn't. No, she's too, I mean, too old.

[Bill Simmons]

When they, when they made that movie.

[Wesley Morris]

No, no, I think that that's not it. Because I bet you she and Elizabeth Shew are the same age. I think.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, you're right. You're right. They probably are.

[Wesley Morris]

I, I think that Demi Moore, and this is why she's so good in Ghost, by the way, I think that she presents as invulnerable, right? She's, I mean, her whole, her whole thing when she became a real major movie star where people were paying money to see movies she was in was just about her toughness, right? I mean, she's often the only woman in these movies. A Few Good Men. She's the woman.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, that's her worst part.

[Wesley Morris]

It's her worst part and maybe like her worst piece of acting because she's kind of seems secondary to everybody else's priorities. And so, you know, Reiner is a great director of actors, so I don't know what his side of this part.

[Bill Simmons]

Of the problem is. The mid-90s did not have a lot of great female parts. If you go back, even you look at. You go back and look at the Oscars during some of those stretches. Like, could she have been Sharon Stone's part in Casino?

[Wesley Morris]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

You don't think so? Why?

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, I'm sure that, I mean, I can't say no. I definitely would have loved to have seen her play the part. I don't have an argument for why she couldn't have done it. Like. Yeah, like cast her into Casino. I thought you were gonna go with Basic Instinct. Could. Which she really could have.

[Bill Simmons]

She would have been too famous for, but she could have. She could have been. One of the disclosure was basically her Basic instinct. Could she have been Annette Bening in American Beauty?

[Wesley Morris]

No. No.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, so you think she's more limited than I do? I. I think I feel like there was more there. She also got married to Bruce Willis. They became a giant celebrity couple and they had three kids. So that, that, that probably hurt the output of movies she was making at some point.

[Wesley Morris]

This is why I want to go back to Mortal Thoughts because. Yeah, it's a great combination of the thing I'm identifying about her that I like, which is the strength with these pockets of vulnerability you don't believe. And the thing about Mortal Thoughts is it's two women. Glenn Headley's the other woman because Glenn Headley used to be a thing and wonderful actress. The two of them in that movie are wonderful.

[Bill Simmons]

She stuck with Mr. Holland even after he almost ran away with a 17 year old. Still stayed there with him. Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Did it. Did it all. And this movie, Immortal Thoughts, I think. Is it. Is it? Alan Rudolph directed this movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

From two. From 1991.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a Tubi classic. Tubi just is always trying to get me to rewatch it. I'm like, no. To be. No, not biting Bill.

[Wesley Morris]

I fell for it.

[Bill Simmons]

You did. To be. Sucked you in. I have fairly recently throwing the fishing rod at you.

[Wesley Morris]

I rewatched it and there's more going on. It does not ultimately work because it's structurally. It's structurally. It should just go chronologically and shouldn't do all the sort of jumping around in time that it does. But Demi Moore.

[Bill Simmons]

We don't have to spend 10 minutes on Mortal Thoughts.

[Wesley Morris]

There's a struggle in here. I know. I'm just thinking through like what worked for me and what the surprise was with respect to Demi Moore. Like there's a struggle in her, I think as an actor where she's trying to figure out like what the. What. How to modulate the. The shell that she sort of moves through movies with. And in a movie like Mortal Thoughts, I mean, some of what's required for that part. She's plays. She's playing a woman being abused by her husband. They conspire to kill him. I think I'm getting this right.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, they.

[Wesley Morris]

They conspire to kill him. She and Glenn Headley, and then they spend the rest of the movie trying to figure out how to get away with murder.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like a bad Thelma and Louise.

[Wesley Morris]

It's.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, whoa.

[Wesley Morris]

You know what's crazy is. Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

And it came around right around the same time. Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And that was. The movie didn't work also because they. You don't believe them as New Jersey housewives or whatever.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, well, they had their accents. Bruce Willis had a crazy facial hair thing going. It's like, come on, Bruce Willis. So what was your favorite Demi. More performance before this movie. What's your. What was your number one? Because my favorites. I loved her in About Last Night, which I. As you know, I think is the. The first modern rom com. But I thought she was great in that. I thought she was great in Disclosure. I think she's great in Ghost.

[Wesley Morris]

I listened to you guys talk about Disclosure.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I know. I don't. You don't like Disclosure. I don't want to.

[Wesley Morris]

I don't like that. I don't like it. I don't think she's good. It's not a good use of Demi Moore.

[Bill Simmons]

I liked it. If you're just making a random movie and you're just showing up for 11 days of shooting, it's. It's. It's a good one.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, three straight guys talking about Disclosure is just.

[Bill Simmons]

That was part of the gimmick.

[Wesley Morris]

It just was like, I'm like, there needs to be.

[Bill Simmons]

She's ghost. She's really good, though.

[Wesley Morris]

Ghost, I think, is. Is the number one number of.

[Bill Simmons]

It was a monster movie.

[Wesley Morris]

Number one answer. Because that movie is, like, not so secretly strange. Right. It's not just the supernatural part.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, it did it. It taught us what happens when you go to hell. Goblins come out of the. Come out of the street and they pull you down. They shadow goblins, and that's it. You're in hell. From that point on, they had the code.

[Wesley Morris]

But I also love what she and Whoopi Goldberg get up to.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, they're great scenes.

[Wesley Morris]

I love her disbelief that the thing that. That she's being told is happening is happening to her.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

I believe her as a woman named Molly, which, you know, that's a huge. That's a big deal. And I just think that that movie is so. It's so much about Demi Moore's character and the movie's about her, and there's just. She's so soft in that movie and the moments in which she has to, like, Put a shield over herself. They work because you understand, the movie has given you enough of this, like, this vulnerable, you know, woman who just doesn't believe that this magical thing that is about. Is about to. That's about to happen to her is really going to happen. Yeah, I just think it's a. I mean, it's strange because in 1990, who were your best actress nominees? Julia Roberts, Meryl Streep, Joanne Woodward, Kathy Bates, who won, and Angelica Houston, I want to say, for the Grifters, I mean, it's not like she was remiss. I mean, Julia Roberts took the movie star part. Movie star nomination for those five people.

[Bill Simmons]

Roberts. Yeah. You had the five. That was impressive.

[Wesley Morris]

I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

Loaded. Loaded year. Jesus Christ.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, any one of those people could have actress.

[Bill Simmons]

And then the next year was loaded, too. And then in the mid-90s, nothing will top her turning on the lights. And about last night, because I think we've been in the dark long enough.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, wow.

[Bill Simmons]

That movie has some growner lines. You got to watch it. It's. She's really great in it, though.

[Wesley Morris]

I haven't seen it in a while. Haven't seen it in a while.

[Bill Simmons]

It's really, really, really an enjoyable rhyme. How'd you feel about the best actor?

[Wesley Morris]

Well, I mean, the winner or the. The nominee.

[Bill Simmons]

Just how it played out. I. So here's my sports angle on Chalamet. Great for a great career move. Not to win.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Great career movement. No, way better now, next movie. This happened to Leo, too. This is. When's he going to win? You want to get into that When's he going to win, Zone? Because now it just helps you with the celebrity of being an actor.

[Wesley Morris]

I also don't think it. It. I also. It's complicated, right? He's probably going to be one of the last actors to be in this position. Right? We're like, he'll just. He'll just be nominated to maybe. Maybe two more times before he actually wins.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he'll have to be in the Revenant. He'll have to crawl out of a dead bear.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, my God. Jesus.

[Bill Simmons]

He'll have to get the shit kicked out of him.

[Wesley Morris]

I'm looking forward to Timothee Chalamet as the Revenant because he definitely has it in him. The question is, is that script ever gonna come his way?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, here's the thing. Can I throw this theory at you?

[Wesley Morris]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

I think what happened with this Oscars run and with Chalamet in general, we always. I mean, how many pods did Sean do about who's the next big star? We always would. We've done pods about who's the next big actor in Hollywood. Are we ever gonna have one? Is this.

[Wesley Morris]

Just moving into this. I love Sean. Talk about that stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, is it. Is this ever gonna happen again? Does the way this does, the way the system, the way it's structured now, does it just make it impossible because we just throw, like, some DC Comics or Marvel suit on them after they. After they become famous? I think what happened with him, snl really helped going on college game day, the way he navigates. You could feel it in the Oscars telecast, too. He was kind of in that Leo spot. They kept going to him. They kept showing him. People were mentioning him, and it just felt like it was kind of his Leo early 2000s moment. Right.

[Wesley Morris]

This is a great point, because I actually didn't even think about DiCaprio in that moment. And I thought I went. I went past Leonardo DiCaprio and went to, like, Streep and Nicholson. Right. Right where he was the person. They weren't even making fun of him at some points.

[Bill Simmons]

No.

[Wesley Morris]

It wasn't even Conan O'Brien.

[Bill Simmons]

It felt like he had clout.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes. People were, like, just shouting him out because they thought he was cool.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he has about as high of an approval rating of an actor that we've seen in a long time. I think, really since Leo in the early two, when Leo was in that aviator stage, and we were like, you know what, man? This stand. This guy is. He's handsome. Everybody likes him. He's a really good actor, and he stands for the right things. He wants to work with good directors. He wants to challenge himself. I know, I know. Chalamet's SAG speech didn't go over fantastic when he was talking about how he wanted to be one of the greats. But I loved it.

[Wesley Morris]

I. I thought it was great.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm glad he said it.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, as. As sports people, Bill, I think we just. What we want is a little bit of honesty in terms of people's ambitions. And if you think you can go all the way. He wasn't even saying, I'm the greatest. He's like, I want to be one of the great athletes.

[Bill Simmons]

It was authentic, which is what we were. It was. We want from athletes, celebrities, whoever. Just be. Just fucking say what you want. Be yourself.

[Wesley Morris]

Be yourself.

[Bill Simmons]

Don't try to be some manufactured. I think people are going to like this version of me, and this will help me if I appear this way. Like, I don't think he's like that.

[Wesley Morris]

No. I think there's. I mean, I think at least not yet.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe he'll turn into that.

[Wesley Morris]

They don't talk about you that way. I mean, think about. I mean, this is not quite fair to the person I'm about. I'm about to name. But think about a show where, like, they would treat Kieran Culkin this way. Right? I think that there is. There's, like, real belief in. In. In Timothee Chalamet as more than just, like, an actor. I mean, he. He embodies something that people seem to like.

[Bill Simmons]

Also.

[Wesley Morris]

It's important to say that he. He's just really good at being himself. And I don't know what that is, really, but I just enjoy when he shows up, you know, on some, you know, Canadian talk show, like hanging out in the record store with this. With the talk show host. I don't know if you saw that. Like, I. I don't even know where I saw it, but it came to me and I was like, I love this guy. He really went along with it.

[Bill Simmons]

And he's the guy who is waiting outside MSG for Maurice Stoudemire to, like, sign a fucking jersey for him. Like, he. He still has that authenticity. And, I don't know, Hollywood beats that out of you sometimes.

[Wesley Morris]

And the difference between. Yeah, I think the difference between him and DiCaprio also. And this is also important. He seems to be fine with it. DiCaprio didn't like it. He. I don't know that he likes it to this day.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, he liked. He liked some of the accoutrements.

[Wesley Morris]

He liked the spoils. The spoils.

[Bill Simmons]

He liked. He liked the spoils.

[Wesley Morris]

Right. But he doesn't like the actual. He does not. He's not in it for, you know, Jimmy Kimmel, Conan O'Brien kind of poking him in the ribs a little bit. Chalamet, she can roll. He leaves. Like, his. His. His skin is thick. He can handle it.

[Bill Simmons]

I gotta say, I think the way Leo handled his career was. Was brilliant. No notes.

[Wesley Morris]

No notes.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, just like, he studied some of the old greats. I don't need to do a shitload of interviews. There needs to still be a little mystery about me. And he kept the mystery for better and worse, because that also allows people to. He's doing this. He's at this party. He has a pussy wrangler. That's an actual phrase used with Leo. That guy's his pussy wrangler.

[Wesley Morris]

Keep them on their Toes. Right. Like, I mean, let. He is willing to be the brunt of. Of some brutal jokes. I'm thinking specifically about Tina Fey and Amy Poehler going at him at the Golden Globes. Yeah, he can.

[Peter Schrager]

He just.

[Wesley Morris]

He's like, if this is the price. If the price is having two funny people, like, roast me for some stuff they think I did or like, the community thinks I did, I'll take it. I still don't have to do an interview.

[Bill Simmons]

I like it. Who else? I mean, there's been De Niro for a while. He had a real mystery, and then something snapped in the 90s, and we went the other way with it.

[Wesley Morris]

What do you mean? Like, what do you think? What changed?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, he just started doing a ton of movies. He started going on snl, part of De Niro. Like, De Niro was this mythical figure. It's like, who is this guy?

[Wesley Morris]

He relaxed. But does he seem any more known to you?

[Bill Simmons]

Like, no, he's. He's actually, ironically. A terrible interview. Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, he's still. He's still mysterious to me. I don't. I don't pretend so.

[Bill Simmons]

Because I have a couple of things I want to hit with you. So you.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Your best actor was. What was who of those five people? No, give me. Anybody giving somebody who didn't get nominated. Yeah. Who did you. Who is the best male performance for you?

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, I really. I'm just going to stick with Adrian Brody. I mean, he was the person who. Who, when I saw him in the opening shot of the Brutalist, I was just like, well, this is. We're headed into There Will Be Blood territory in terms of what the acting is doing. I just think that this is a guy who. I'm just gonna. I don't want to talk about the speech. I can't even. I don't even know what to do.

[Bill Simmons]

Performance. Forget it. He's annoying. Whatever.

[Wesley Morris]

I. A little bit understand where it came from, but then it took a turn and then I was like, no, you got to just. Anyway, but he was my. He. Of those five guys. I'll just stay with those five guys. He was my favorite of the. Of the nominated performances, and he also was the best. He was the. It was the. One of the best pieces of acting I saw last year, period. And I think what I loved about it was the. The restraint, the way he. The way his. There's something like an. There's an anchor. It's so different from the piano, from the pianist performance. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Where that character seemed to be blowing through the narrative. And part of what was beautiful about that performance was just that he was in a silent movie, essentially, and you were watching somebody do like a Charlie Chaplin, but under the worst possible circumstances for a human. Human being. And he just seemed to keep surviving in an almost tragic, realist way. And this movie is the opposite, where it's. Everything about it is internal. And how many levers can he keep down on the emotional circumstances? You know, dealing with the Guy Pierce character keeping his eyes open, you know, there's a wariness and a skepticism about what this character is up against at all. At all times. There's that great scene. Oh, you haven't seen it, Bill, have you?

[Bill Simmons]

I haven't seen it.

[Wesley Morris]

All right. I gotta just. I'm gonna tell you about this one scene. There's this one scene. Felicity Jones is his wife. She eventually makes her way over to the United States. They wind up living together in this. In this smallish apartment with her cousin and these three Holocaust survivors in this little apartment, they haven't. The husband and wife have not seen each other in a long time, and there is an expectation from her that they're going to do it. And this is truly this. This scene between these two actors and between these two characters is like. I'm getting chills just thinking about. It is one of the most loaded sexual encounters that also is freighted by, you know, watching it in 20, 24, 25, you know, 60 years, you know, 70 years of history and the history that these characters have with each other where, like, they're just different people now. This. This. The Holocaust has changed them. The time they've spent a part has changed them. Her body's different. His. His interest in her body is different. It. It is. I'm not even gonna. I can't be more detailed about the scene because I don't want to. Haven't seen it.

[Bill Simmons]

I wasn't gonna skip it, but I just.

[Wesley Morris]

That is one of the best directed, best acted scenes between two actors in a bed that I have ever seen. And I will say, as a, you know, parenthetically, not a lot of bed scenes in Baby Girls, so they didn't have a lot of competition.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, yeah, that's true. A lot of hotel room carpets. And I want to talk about Hackman, and I want to talk quickly about White Lotus. So any other Oscar thoughts? Because we're going to take a break.

[Wesley Morris]

We can talk about Hackman. No. Well, can I just say one thing? We can save it for after the break, but I want to talk about, like, what these Oscars mean. Cause this felt. These are different. Something has changed. I don't. It kind of is both promising, but also not. It doesn't feel good. Based on the way people are talking to me about the Academy Awards. And I'm curious what people in your life and world are saying.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean we could do this now. I just think we've been talking about the Oscars for a while. I think sometimes things morph over time culturally. When we were talking about All Star Weekend a couple weeks ago on the podcast and I think it was. Maybe it was van or I can't remember. I'm sorry, I can't remember who said it but about whether it just had a cultural expiration date.

[Wesley Morris]

Things can change.

[Bill Simmons]

That was shifting. Yeah, things can shift and change. I think about. People used to care about regular season baseball and now they just care about their own teams. Like as you get older you just see like things sometimes run their course. And with the Oscars, you know, whether people care about who wins the way they did in 1982, I. I just don't know if they do. I don't especially the younger generation. The younger generation was probably like did Chalamet win? Would be the way they could that like my kids I prom I can have a 17 year old, 19 year olds who are pretty sports culture in the mix at least a little bit because of me. They didn't care about the Oscars. But when we were kids and I'm older than you, but both of our generations, we really cared who won. And I wonder if that's just shifted now.

[Wesley Morris]

But it's shift man.

[Bill Simmons]

But part of it is the NBA issue when they talk about Face of the League. And my whole case is when somebody really matters, we won't have this conversation because we'll know something Ma. You know, we'll know that person mattered. Like if there's another Titanic, there's another big ass movie or there's another big ass star with an awesome performance, people are gonna care if that person or that movie wins this year. Didn't have a movie like that. And it's always gonna suffer when that's the case.

[Wesley Morris]

But I also think that those movies aren't like that's just. They're not gonna happen. And also the thing about the old way and this is not nostalgia speaking, this is just, you know, facts. You know, there were. There was a kind of randomness to what the five best pictures wound up being or the five best picture nominees. And you know, there was a healthy movie going ecosystem or one that seemed healthy to, like, an average. Could seem healthy to an average moviegoer where, like, there was a lot of movies to choose from. They weren't all trying to win Oscars, you know, and sometimes the ones that weren't trying wound up mattering.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. Stumbled into it.

[Wesley Morris]

A lot of people.

[Bill Simmons]

But we were also. We were making less movies. There was no confusion between, is this something I watch at home on my TV or do I go to the theater to see it? We had way less TV competition with the high end stuff. We didn't. We had all the best actors, were just doing movies. And now it's like, you might see a really great actor just do a TV show and see instead. So it just feels like it's splintered in a whole bunch of different ways. I still care. I still care about the history and how current stuff relates to it, but I think I'm like, an anomaly.

[Wesley Morris]

I was gonna say we don't count. I don't think.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, we don't count.

[Wesley Morris]

I. I think that. But. But I'm telling you, you're mentioning your kids. I'm talking to people your kids age and I'm talking to people older than.

[Bill Simmons]

We are in their. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Who are also like, I'm out. I can't. Y'all. Y'all got me to see Conclave and then pull that shit at the end. I don't. I'm out. Like, y'all trying to rope a dope me into having feelings I don't want to be having. Now, as a conclave person, I will tell you that that dismount is pretty ingenious.

[Bill Simmons]

Conclave supporter.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay, I. You don't like it.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought it was. The twist was stupid.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, I loved Is such. It is such.

[Bill Simmons]

I said it was. I didn't think the movie needed it. I was more interested in who did.

[Wesley Morris]

You want to win, who did you want to.

[Bill Simmons]

I just like being in the world as they tried to figure it out and undermine each other. Like it was just a classic old school movie. I didn't feel like it needed a twist.

[Wesley Morris]

I think that that, like, what we're going to call a twist was really ingenious because they. I think the movie earns it.

[Bill Simmons]

I've heard this case. I'm not. I. I just personally didn't work for me.

[Wesley Morris]

All right. But that's not my point. My point is I talk to so many people of so many different age ranges. Like age demographics, right. Generationally, everybody's out. Like, nobody feels like the movies are for them. And I don't know what to do with that, because it's not Sean Baker's fault. It's not the substance's fault. Do you think Nickel Boys was out here trying to win a bunch of Oscars? No. This is the story that Romel Ross wanted to tell about, like, based on, like, you know, quote, based on Colson Whitehead's novel. Like, yeah, he. There was. There's so much risk taken in these by these movies. These Best Picture nominees this year, they were doing strange, unusual, weird things. And I'm saying this as a person who saw Jamal Del Toro's the Shape of Water, which won Best Picture. A woman about a woman in love with a fish. Like, you know, strange things happen to Best picture nominees or in Best Picture nominees. But this was the first year where I can understand what it is the public wants. And what the public wants is movies that not only have they seen, but they want to have, like, a wealth of movies. If they're gonna be going to the movies, like, to a physical movie theater.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, they.

[Wesley Morris]

They want to go look at. They want to look at famous people. They want movie stars like Deadpool and Wolverine are movie stars. Like, this iteration, this Anthony Mackie, Captain America, to, like, two people who aren't invested in the Marvel Universe, Marvel Cinematic Universe. Like, he's important. And we all know, like, what this iteration of Captain America is and does if you read the comic, etcetera, etcetera. But, like, do people. This is Anthony Mackie, a draw for people. I mean, the movie seems like it's doing okay, but my point, my larger point is this is just me saying once again to you, Bill, that the IP is still. I think people are now tired of the IP even.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

Like, the IP's worn out. It's welcome.

[Bill Simmons]

We did Rocky for the rewatchables that went up last night, and Rocky won Best Picture.

[Wesley Morris]

Wait, you guys have never done Rocky?

[Bill Simmons]

We did three and four. Rocky is now a prequel for Rocky 3. That was part of my case for not doing it. Rocky 3 is the best movie of the 80s.

[Wesley Morris]

I agree.

[Bill Simmons]

But I mean, sort of Rocky wins All the President's Men Network and Taxi Driver don't win. And then you go to the best actor, and it's just. You're just looking at it like, oh, my God. And granted, it was almost 50 years ago, but you're like, oh, my God, look at the movies we were making.

[Wesley Morris]

No, go back to 2014.

[Bill Simmons]

Right? Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Was that the year that gravity. And was that the year of. Of Dallas Buyers Club Gravity American Hustle.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah 12 Years the Slave 12 Years Old Captain Phillips Dallas Buyers Club Gravity Her Nebraska the Wolf of Wall street.

[Wesley Morris]

That deck was so stacked that Tom Hanks giving one of the best performances he's ever given and Captain Phillips did not get a best actor nomination.

[Bill Simmons]

Right? Let's take a quick break. I want to talk about Hackman. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast and this episode is brought to you by Intuit. TurboTax didn't file with TurboTax last year. That's in the past. Now taxes is getting the TurboTax app and filing your own taxes for free if you didn't file with them last year. Filed by February 28th all tax forms, all 100% free. Now this is Tax Intuit TurboTax. New filers and filers who didn't use TurboTax last year only must start and file your own taxes in app by February 28th. Excludes TurboTax Live full [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by Marvel Television's Born Again. Charlie Cox returns as vigilante lawyer Matt Murdock and Vincent D'Onofrio as former mob boss Wilson Fisk. The darker side of Matt Murdock is revealed when he gains a new perspective on his role as the Daredevil and faces an internal struggle between justice and revenge. The devil's work is never done. Don't miss the two episode premiere of Daredevil Born Again tonight only on Disney. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. During the season, every baseball team plays 162 games. It's a true test of endurance. It's not enough to have a hot month or two. You need sustained dominance throughout. Well, the same is true for your small business. It's not enough to have a great Q2 or even a great year. You want year over year growth that starts with better hires that'll be there for the long haul. To find Those hires, use LinkedIn. LinkedIn has strong hiring data and insights that you won't find anywhere else. To help pair you with the best candidates, from unique skills and interests to the connections you have in common. Based on LinkedIn data, 72% of small businesses say that LinkedIn helps them find high quality talent. LinkedIn also lets you go beyond people who are actively applying in a given week, 171 million LinkedIn members aren't actively seeking jobs, but they are open to new opportunities. That's a big pool to miss out on. If you're not hiring with LinkedIn. Find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com Simmons that's LinkedIn.com Simmons to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply.

[Peter Schrager]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Gene Hackman died earlier this week. And he was old. It wasn't like a big surprise. Hopefully the details of how he died. I've heard some things aren't too awful, but I have a feeling they might not be great. But he was somebody that had this awesome, awesome, awesome career forever and then just walked away and didn't. We never kind of saw him again. He almost did the Johnny Carson going to Malibu and I'm out. That's it, I'm done. There was nobody really like him that I can think of. It's like he's a true one on one. And, you know, even like in the rewatchables we've done, I think we did like eight Hackman movies, something like that, where you would never think like he would be one of the more rewatchable actors, but he just over and over again went popping and stuff. And what was interesting watching as his career evolved was how the other actors would talk about what it was like to kind of be in a movie with him. And it was like, almost like you're going against him. And it's. I was trying to think of like, how many actors are discussed that way, where it's like, I'm with Hackman, gotta raise my game today, I gotta raise my game this week. Like, he reached that part of it too. There was just nobody like him. But you could go way back, like Downhill Racer, which I think Fantasy and I are going to do and rewatch at some point. It's an awesome movie. It's probably the first great modern sports movie. Even though it's not totally modern, but he's even great in that. And that was what, 1969? So, yeah, there wasn't a career quite like this. Will we ever have another Gene Hackman?

[Wesley Morris]

No, because, I mean, here's, you know, you know me well enough to know that my taste in men is eclectic. But I'm just going to say for the average person, they're not. They're not looking at Gene Hackman and going, oh, yeah, yeah, I'll take it.

[Bill Simmons]

You t, you're tapping in a horny hack. Horny hacks already that horny side. Yeah, we talk about that in the Rewatchable. Sometimes he gets a little randy. In some movies he is.

[Wesley Morris]

But I think there's something about the. His kind of average lookingness yeah, like, you know, he. He did not wear a toupee. He did not hide his, his loss of his hair. He always just seemed like he was perpetually 45 years old. Yeah, he came to us 45 years old. And like when he left, he maybe seemed 60, I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like 58 years old.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, he just, he just seemed permanently middle aged, which is a thing that just will never happen now.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, then. But the other piece with that was it somehow allowed him to play all these different parts. Yes, that he could be like, he could be a basketball coach. He could be in a buddy cop movie. He could be the bad guy in a buddy cop movie. He could be somebody that's, you know, running a submarine. He could be somebody who's the president. He could be somebody trying to. He could be somebody trying to break into the White House movement.

[Wesley Morris]

Like.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. He could be somebody who's like, trying to figure out the heist and he's in charge of the heist. Or he could be the person who is working on the heist. He could be the sports movie coach. He could do literally anything.

[Wesley Morris]

Anything. I think that his also. That kind of does speak in some weird way to what America is. And I know this sounds cheesy and corny and cheap, but like, if you are coming to this country for the first time and you want to you like one of the many things that tells you that you're in the United States of America. It's probably Gene Hackman. Right. This is a person who, in all of the jobs that he could be doing, seems credible in them. He's not conventionally good looking. Like, the idea that he and Warren Beatty are supposed to be brothers in Bonnie and Clyde is just one of the most laughable things I've ever seen. Like, yeah, adopted brothers. I don't know, I just. It's just, it's comical. There is something also, like, unpredictable about him. And it isn't so much that, you know, I think about him in the French Connection.

[Peter Schrager]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

One of the what if you think of. If you diagram the psyche of. You've diagrammed that sentence psychologically, this is like a terrible human being. He's a racist, like, racist cop in New York City shaking down people in bars just for kicks.

[Bill Simmons]

Basically, him and Jack Cates in 48 Hours are my favorite cop characters that are also completely indefensible.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. But you know, Popeye Doyle never had an Eddie Murphy to come and give one of the great rebuttals to the racism.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

In the movies, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Or like to. To anybody's racism in the movies. Popeye Doyle stands as a singular character because he's never brought in to heal. He's never. Nobody ever like, wags their finger in his face in a way that means anything because ultimately he's looking for what, you know, a moviegoer will recognize as a kind of narrative justice. Like he's trying to solve this mystery. And the command, the like easy, like kind of sexy command that he has in that. In those bar. In those shakedown scenes, you know, he just. It's just a great dirty, filthy character who. And the character works because he's got swag, you know.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

And he didn't. He could turn that on and he could turn it off, but you really.

[Bill Simmons]

No way out was like that. That was another one where he's just kind of. Kind of sleazy, right? But sleazy powerful. And you could just kind of see it. The other thing with him that I thought was cool, you could just throw him in other great parts and he makes sense. You put him in the Godfather. He's just. Just be Tom Hagen. You're going to be Tom Hagen instead of Duvall. And it's like, yeah, Hackman would have been fine.

[Wesley Morris]

This is a.

[Bill Simmons]

Could have pulled it off.

[Wesley Morris]

Can I tell you how many years I thought that Tom Hagen was played by Gene Hackman?

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

I sometimes have to remind myself that Robert Duvall is not Gene Hackman in that.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, could he have Nicholson's, you know, all time incredible in Chinatown, but could the movie have survived if it was Gene Hackman in Chinatown?

[Wesley Morris]

Like, probably would have worked.

[Bill Simmons]

Would have been fine.

[Wesley Morris]

Terms of Endearment works with Gene Hackman.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that's the thing. It's. And that's why I think he's so unique because it's almost like a basketball player that could. Could play like a bunch of different positions and guard a different bunch of it. And it's just like, oh, when we have this guy, we basically can do anything we want.

[Wesley Morris]

But you know what he cannot do and never really tried. He never did crazy. Well, he did do comedy and he was pretty. The birdcage. I'm. That's the first comes to mind.

[Peter Schrager]

How about.

[Bill Simmons]

Are you a heartbreakers person? Sigourney Waver and Jennifer Love Hewitt. Corny hacks is out in full blue.

[Wesley Morris]

This is. I mean, I. I mean I'm already out as like, you know, I've out of myself as being like into Gene Hackman, but yeah, that does not quite but no, his Lex Luthor. His Lex Luthor.

[Bill Simmons]

That's how I got to know him. By the way, that was my first gene hack.

[Wesley Morris]

That was my first gene hack.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

My first Gene Hackman was this guy in the 78 Superman. And listen, he's sexy. He is sexy in that movie. And there's like. And he. I don't know what he knew, but he definitely seemed to understand that Lex Luthor thought he was sexy and that was good enough for him.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. Like, could he have done Liam Neeson and Taken. I think he could have.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. But he. Oh, wait, but this is my. I was going to say, speaking of which, I. He never did crazy. Crazy is the thing. He never did. He never.

[Bill Simmons]

So he never did. Like Tommy Lee Jones and Blown Away just as a crazy Irish terrorist.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, go back to, like, one of his primes. Like, he couldn't have played Travis Bickle.

[Bill Simmons]

No.

[Wesley Morris]

You also wouldn't have believed him as Woodward, right? You wouldn't have believed him as Bob Woodward.

[Bill Simmons]

No, because I would never think he was. I would never think he would not be in control when I see Gene Bobby.

[Wesley Morris]

Exactly. He would have flown off the handle way before it was time.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

And there are just some things, like. This is an interesting distinction that we're trying to make here, which is that I'm saying he's never played crazy, right? He's never played a crazy person. Like a psychopath. You know, you can say what you will, what you want about Little Bill and Unforgiven, but that guy was just. Evil's not the same thing as crazy.

[Bill Simmons]

No, you're right. I totally get what you mean. Well, the other part is, he didn't bring Gene Hackman, the famous celebrity person, into the role. That kind of baggage that some other. Like, I would see Dustin Hoffman or Nicholson. And you're always thinking it's Nicholson. You're always thinking it's Dustin Hoffman.

[Wesley Morris]

This is a good distinction.

[Bill Simmons]

Hackman could kind of blend into the different parts and where it's like, oh, I love Gene Hackman. But then you'd kind of like, Enemy of the State's a good example. He's Gene Hackman. But you're watching. He just kind of blends in and out. Now all of a sudden, he's this weird guy. I don't know what he's up to, and is he going to help Will Smith or not? And you kind of just forget he's Gene Hackman.

[Wesley Morris]

Think about all the people he's mentored, too, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah. I mean, and Everybody talks about it after, like, whoa. Yeah, that was. I went to grad school when I did acting with Gene Hackman.

[Wesley Morris]

But what is it. But what is that, though, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I think it's professionalism. Just going onto the set knowing exactly who you are, like, real confidence, a little bit of a charisma. You're not going to back down anybody. I think he had some size to him, too, which I think is unusual for Hollywood, you know, six, one. Yeah, I think he was. You know, he was.

[Wesley Morris]

He said they definitely seem substantial, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Like, there was. I mean, this is part of the thing that I've got for Gene Hackman is he just seemed meaty. Like, there was some. There was often some meat on those bones. Like, he seemed big boned is really what it was. Like, not fit at all, but not interested in fitness. Not vain. There's no vanity. Right. He just. Whoever he's playing, it's just there to do the work. Because often these are working people. All these guys have jobs. And even the guy that he plays in the. In the Birdcage, the senator, the kind of, like, bigoted senator who kind of, like, never changes but keeps going along with the program. And part of the comedy of the movie is you fully expect him to, like, give himself over by, like, showing up and, you know, coming out of the. Some. Some crazy plot twist or something. But instead he's just like, man, this is the world. It's very Billy Wilder of him, that. That the approach he takes in the. In the Birdcage. Mike Nichols directed it. So it's not like. It's not a crazy thing to have a smart performance, like stay in a lane, because the director knows the payoff will be there at the end. But there's just.

[Bill Simmons]

Your crazy point is good, because I wouldn't have wanted to see Gene Hackman in the Shining. He couldn't have done it, I don't think. I just wouldn't have bought it. I wouldn't. I just don't think it works.

[Wesley Morris]

But he doesn't burn slow like that. He's eruptive. He's eruptive.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, what's interesting is, like, he could play the president. He could have played the president's conniving chief of staff. Yes, he could have played. He basically could have played every part in the White House. Could have played the vice president who doesn't like the president. He could have played the guy, the military general who works for the president. Just go through anybody that is involved with the president, and he could probably.

[Wesley Morris]

Have Played every part.

[Bill Simmons]

Whereas when Nicholson's the president, you're kind of like, ah, it's Jack Nicholson. Like, even when Jack Nicholson is in broadcast news and he's good. Yes, but you could argue Hackman might have been better on that part. Right.

[Wesley Morris]

You know, you know what's interesting, because.

[Bill Simmons]

He still feels like Jack Nicholson in broadcast news. I'm not buying him as like a network anchor.

[Wesley Morris]

The. The thing. Well, he would have been the president of the network. Right?

[Bill Simmons]

Or what? Yeah, whatever.

[Peter Schrager]

He was.

[Wesley Morris]

No, no, no. Nicholson was the anchor. But what I'm saying is Hackman, you would have more believed him as the president. He could.

[Bill Simmons]

Or like the Robert Prasky part. Like, he was like working with Holly Hunter. Yeah, he could have been that guy.

[Wesley Morris]

He would not have made sense as any of. He wouldn't have made sense as William Hurt or Albert Brooks. But you know, that same era of Hackman. He has a cameo appearance in Postcards from the Edge. Do you remember this scene?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

He's the director of the movie Meryl Streep is fucking up in. And the Meryl Streep character, this is based on the Carrie Fisher memoir. She's playing this drug addicted actress who bottoms out and she goes through rehab. And her redemption essentially is going back into the post production studio to do voiceovers. And Gene Hackman's her director. And the thing that we're talking about with this mentorship, I think a version of what it looks like is this director telling this Meryl Streep character to get her life together and, you know, giving her this. I mean, it's not another chance. The movie still needs to be looped and she's there to do her voiceovers. And it's just this wonderful sequence where you learn something about the movies. I didn't know what that process was until this. Until Postcards from the Edge, another Mike Nichols movie. But he's so warm and firm and clear about what it is that he needs. But he's also got a sense of humor and he's not. I don't know who this character is. He's Gene Hackman.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

Whatever that means.

[Bill Simmons]

101.

[Wesley Morris]

But fatherly in a really touching way.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the other thing. And obviously We've done almost 375 Rewatchables movies at this point. Part of what becomes somebody's legacy is the rewatchability of some of the movies they made. And he just had such a great instance instinct for this. Great. And then sometimes, like, he didn't. He thought Hoosiers was going to be a bomb that ends up being the biggest basketball movie anyone's ever made. Right. And lives on forever and ever. He was. He was pissed. The whole time he was making it, he was like, nobody's going to see this shit.

[Wesley Morris]

No Best Actor nomination for him in that movie, by the way.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I think it was because it took him so long to realize, just turn the ball to Jimmy Chitwood.

[Wesley Morris]

Clear out.

[Bill Simmons]

Clear out. Don't overthink this. Stop running. Plays. We don't need four passes anymore. We have a generational star in our team, Royal Tenenbaums.

[Wesley Morris]

I would say the last great Hackman.

[Bill Simmons]

Performance was close to the end. It was one of the last ones anyway. Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And one. I mean, the thing that you love about that's the one performance I think anybody's given in a Wes Anderson movie where it felt like Wes Anderson was just giving him. Giving the enterprise over to this actor. I don't know. I don't know anything about anything with that movie. I just know how I feel watching it versus watching him in it versus watching anybody else in any other Wes Anderson movie. That's the one where I felt like Gene Hackman just won, overrode the vision. And, you know, most people, a lot of people think that that's their favorite Wes Anderson movie, I think in part because Gene Hackman is the one person who's the. One of the rare people to act in a Wes Anderson movie who feels differently alive from the sort of dioramic project of the film. And he frequently exists on the streets of that city. Right. He does not exist. He's not in the houses that much or he doesn't. He doesn't live in my memory as being an indoor cat. He's an outdoor cat in that movie. And like anything outside, Wes Anderson just seems to have less control.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

Right. He's such a soundstage interior, like, interior design oriented person. And something about Gene Hackman out in those streets. It's just classic. And it's very on brand for Hackman and very disorienting for Wes Anderson. And the Tenenbaums is greater for it because there's a tension there that exists between his energy and the movie at large. His energy.

[Bill Simmons]

One great thing about him, he's just in movies with most of the great stars from three different generations of movies. Right. I think Denzel might be. I'd be interested to see what the list is.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But we always talk about Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon, and it's like one degree of Gene Hackman. You could Just go through Nick. Everybody he's worked with, like, Redford. Like, it doesn't matter. You go 50 years or 45 years, however long he was, and he's going to be in a movie. Like, it'll be like. Like Travolta was paying homage to him. And it was like, Hackman made so many movies. What was it? Get Shorty was his Travolta movie. Yeah, yeah. But you go through and you'd be like, just shout an actor out. Did they work with Gene Hackman and. And they probably did shout an actress out. They probably did Sally Field.

[Wesley Morris]

Am I missing a very obvious one? Because, like, the two of them seem like they just Field. It just should have worked.

[Bill Simmons]

He did a movie with Barbara Streisand.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, that underrated, by the way.

[Bill Simmons]

All Night Long.

[Wesley Morris]

All Night Long. But he and Sally Field seem like they would have had a random, really good connection.

[Bill Simmons]

He did a movie with Richard Gere, Julie Christie, Kate Cavshaw, and Denzel Washington and J.T. walsh. Can you name the movie?

[Wesley Morris]

Can you name those names again?

[Bill Simmons]

Richard Gere, Julie Christie, Kate Capshaw, and Denzel Washington as Arnold Billings. What's the year it was? Lumet Power.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, that's great to be.

[Bill Simmons]

Throw that shit on the main screen.

[Wesley Morris]

That's like 1981, isn't it?

[Bill Simmons]

No, it's hot. It's later. It's 86.

[Wesley Morris]

86. Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

It was. It was right when Hollywood was like, hey, Richard Gere, what's going on here? Yeah, why are we making all these. Why are all these bombing. But you're not a movie star anymore.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, I know we're not talking about Richard Gere here, but, like, you know, it's funny because, like, to compare Richard Gere to Genie Hackman is interesting, right? Like, why does it work for Hackman and not for Richard Gere?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, this raises the second. Well, Richard Gere's too handsome. That's part of the problem. But we. We've talked about Richard Gere when. What? He taps into an internal affairs and officer gentleman. That's Richard Gere. Yes, yes. Hackman as the guy in Pretty Woman would have been really interesting.

[Wesley Morris]

That's the one that they wouldn't make, right?

[Bill Simmons]

That's the one they wouldn't make.

[Wesley Morris]

But that's the more realistic one they originally wanted to make.

[Bill Simmons]

That's the more realistic one where he's like an older dirty fucking guy.

[Wesley Morris]

What was that original title? Was it called 2000 or 4000? Whatever the. Her fee would have been. I think that's what the original title.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Then they tried Whore on the Street. That didn't work. They just kept trying titles, just kept going for stuff.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, I feel like there was some Hackman money left on the table if he never did a movie with Sally Field, because that would. That, yeah, that's a no brainer to me. Murphy's Law instead of. Instead of or Murphy's Romance. Sorry. Is the Sally Field, James Garner movie that got James Garner his only Oscar nomination. I feel like Gene Hackman, that could.

[Bill Simmons]

Have been a good Hackman. He's making so many movies Anyway, Gene Hackman, first ballot hall of famer. Give me your one minute review of White Lotus through three episodes. Are you caught up?

[Wesley Morris]

Here's my one minute. Here's my one minute. Three. I don't know how many words it's going to be. Here's my review of White Lotus Season 3. I'm watching the Pit.

[Bill Simmons]

You're watching the Pit?

[Wesley Morris]

I'm watching the pit.

[Bill Simmons]

ER is back. I'm not 20, 25 years.

[Wesley Morris]

White Lotus. White Lotus had his chance with me, Bill. This show doesn't know what it's about. I'm watching the Pit.

[Bill Simmons]

Wow, you're into the Pit that much.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, I'm in the Pit.

[Bill Simmons]

You're in the Pit. No, Wiley, you never gave up your stock.

[Wesley Morris]

Can't. Oh, I. Are you kidding? Did I ever own stock? I was like, I should have bought stock.

[Bill Simmons]

No, you had some stock.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, this would have. I mean, the vesting happening here is extraordinary. Are you watching this show, Bill?

[Bill Simmons]

I'm not. Should I be watching? People keep telling me to watch it. Let me tell you, it's like ER crossed with 24.

[Wesley Morris]

Y'all can keep your White Lotus, y'all. You can have it. Eat it up. I don't want it. I don't want anymore. I had my fill. Y'all don't know how to feed me. The Pit, this show. And it's crazy that, like the most excited I've gotten talking to you is about this show and not about anything else. Yeah, I do. If we were talking about Baby Girl or Hard Truths, which is. Which has the other great performance from last year by Marianne John Baptiste, I'd be psyched to talk about that. But we're talking about the Pit and I. It's such a strange viewing experience. If you ever watch Doctor and I actually would love to know how people feel who haven't watched Doctor Ever to watch it for the first time. Because within like five minutes, you are someplace, you know, you've Already been. Even though you don't know where you actually are, everything about it is familiar. This show is made by John Wells, who is responsible in part for er. And it's. The structure is basically one hour. Like Every episode is one hour in this. In this staff, this medical student.

[Bill Simmons]

24 across with ER, basically.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes, that's exactly. You said it. It went over my head because I was enthusing about you watching the show, but you are 100% correct. Formally, that's the show. I don't know how anything that happens on this show actually happens. What are the retakes like?

[Bill Simmons]

You know what, how many takes do they need to say no more? I'm gonna watch. You don't need to sell me anymore. This is. This is. I'm in. I'm gonna watch it.

[Wesley Morris]

Noah Wiley giving the TV performance. Nobody's gonna do better than Noah Wiley on this show.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, I'm so happy.

[Wesley Morris]

Nobody doing.

[Bill Simmons]

I never gave up on him.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, you didn't. Because I haven't seen him. I haven't seen him since 2001.

[Bill Simmons]

He's been doing some good stuff. He was on that. That. What was that movie with the train, The Crazy Train. I thought he was on that movie that turned into a TV show. Snowpiercer. Snowpiercer. Train.

[Wesley Morris]

I think it might have been TNT Snowpiercer or the Bong Joon Oak.

[Bill Simmons]

Snowpiercer. No, he's in the TV version, I think. Maybe. I don't know. You're right.

[Wesley Morris]

Say so. I'm glad that, you know, he was on tv. He was on it. He might have been that show, actually. You're right. I remember being like, well, I'm glad. I'm glad the checks are still coming in.

[Bill Simmons]

It's great.

[Wesley Morris]

This is more than a. I'm glad the checks are still coming in. This is an extraordinary. Everybody on this show, even if you're not. Even if the acting isn't good, you have to be present in a really interesting way. Like a. Like a way that feels new to me for television. And it is just.

[Bill Simmons]

The pit.

[Wesley Morris]

It's thrilling. It's really gross and suspenseful and I love it.

[Bill Simmons]

Anything to plug, personally?

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, I'm working on a podcast. I turned in my book, you'll be happy to know.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't believe it. Is there video evidence of it?

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, there's still a lot of work to do, but it'll. We're going to make it. We're going to make it really good. I think it's going to be. It's going to work.

[Bill Simmons]

I can't wait to read it.

[Wesley Morris]

But yeah, I'm working on a show, a podcast. It's just, it's going to be me talking to people.

[Bill Simmons]

I can't wait to invite myself on it.

[Peter Schrager]

You?

[Wesley Morris]

Well, I mean, I would have invited you had you not already just invited yourself. You know, you're, you know you're invited.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, Wesley Morris, great to see you as always.

[Wesley Morris]

Nice to see you, too.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Peter Schrager and Wesley Morris, thanks to Kyle and how and Rudy as well. And don't forget Celtic City. You can catch up on the first episode on Max. New rewatchables, Rocky Prestige TV podcast, episode three, White Lotus. Check out theringer.com a great website and I will see you on Thursday on this podcast.

[Peter Schrager]

Feel it.