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The Bill Simmons Podcast
Most Surprising NBA Player Leaps With Tim Legler, Plus NFL Holiday Picks With Joe House
02:13:33
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- [00:00]
A
This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra, the official beer partner of the NBA. While the NBA season is heating up, the best moments are served cold, just like a refreshing Michelob Ultra Superior light beer with only 95 calories. Nothing better than enjoying the games with a crisp, cold beer in your hand. And even better to see them in person. Luckily for you, that's where Michelob Ultra comes in, getting you closer than ever with a chance to see all the action in person. With courtside tickets to NBA games and more, Michelob Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Enter now@michelob ultra.com Courtside Michelob Ultra Courtside 25 to 26 no purchase necessary. Open to US residents 21/plus begins on October 1, 2025 ends on June 30, 2026. Multiple entry periods. See official rules@migelobulture.com Courtside for free entry, entry details, prizes and Details. The Bill Simmons Podcast presented by the Ringer Podcast Network where I put up a new Rewatchables episode on Monday night. It was me and Van Lathan and Chris ryan talking about F1, a 2025 movie that we did in 2025, second one of the year. We also did Sinners earlier in the year. I think there's only five movies we've done in the same year. They came out in the nine year history of the Rewatchable. So we did get out. We did Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. We did Top Gun, Maverick. There might have been one other one. So this is the fifth or the sixth one. But I really love F1. I think it's a great sports movie. It's a genre that has increasingly not churned out the high, high end sports movies. I was thinking about this because any given Sunday was on Pluto. Yeah, yeah, I was checking out Pluto. I'm not gonna apologize. Any given Sunday was on and I was thinking about that incredible run of late 90s, basically from 94 all the way through the late 90s into the early 2000s when just awesome iconic sports movies. And we're just not making them in the same way anymore. If we make them, they're either small scale or we've run out of ideas for them. I don't know what's going on, but anyway, really enjoyed F1, enjoyed Brad Pitt, enjoyed everything. I'm not even a racing guy, but we covered all the angles in that one. You could check out. Obviously with Christmas on Thursday, we're scaling back big time on the content on the ringer this week, but this is the last podcast for this week. You can check out all of our other podcasts that we have because everybody went at least once, I think, so we'll have enough to keep you warm over the holidays. Anyway, coming up on this podcast, Tim Legler. We had a lot of NBA stuff to cover. He hasn't been on in a few weeks and we spent a little time talking about contenders, but a lot of time talking about players that have gone up a level this season. I also threw my Celtics theory, Adam, that I have about this season that I came up with last night. So he's on. And then Joe House is back to do Ringer 107 with me. Ringer 107's been in shambles, basically looking at the playoffs at this point, hoping we could turn it around. But some fun games to talk about. So basketball, then football. That's the podcast. We'll take a break. Bring in Pearl Jam. This episode of the Bill Simmons podcast is presented by State Farm. Having insurance isn't the same as having State Farm. It's like expecting a linebacker on the football field but getting a line cook. Sure, they both can handle the pressure when it starts heating up, but only one is stopping a touchdown. You wouldn't settle for just anything for your team, so don't settle for just any insurance. When it comes to getting help, you need, State Farm is the real deal. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. All right. Happy holidays to our guy, Tim Legler. Doing a Christmas. What Christmas game you doing?
- [04:13]
B
Houston Rockets at Lakers. It's the prime time, 8pm Eastern. Man, I'm really looking forward, really looking forward to it. And honestly, Bill, I'm just looking forward to calling a game. Even though Christmas is always affecting family time. We get that, but I haven't called a game. The espn, ABC have not had any games since Thanksgiving Eve.
- [04:31]
C
Wow.
- [04:32]
A
What have you been doing with yourself?
- [04:34]
B
A lot of pods. A lot of. I'm still watching games. A lot of pods. But you know, hey, listen, it's not the worst thing. My life will disappear later in the year when the playoffs get here. So I say goodbye to my family for a while. So I'm just a lot of family time, but still watching, obviously, and doing a lot of this, this kind of stuff, man, because there's a lot of really, really interesting stuff in the league right now.
- [04:53]
A
Well, I hope all the Lakers are playing in that game, but I'm dubious. I want to start here. How many contenders do we actually have right now? So if I did this, I did this two weeks ago. On my pod, and I said okc, Denver, Houston, maybe the spurs, maybe the Knicks. But it was really three, then maybe two. But now I look at it two weeks later, and I think Detroit has a real case now with the way they've still been holding up their play. Minnesota, especially with the OKC win the other night. There's a couple other teams, but is it. How many? How many is the exact number for you now? Cause I think you can make a case for seven. Does that sound right?
- [05:34]
B
I'm adding. I would have Detroit, New York, from the Eastern Conference, obviously Oklahoma City. Then I would include Denver, Houston, Minnesota. I don't think you can rule out the Lakers necessarily, man. Like, I don't know that. Look, I don't know that any of these teams. And then. Did I say Minnesota or San Antonio?
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A
Yeah, San Antonio. Be the same. We have the same setup.
- [05:55]
B
They may have one more. Or do you have the Lakers in there?
- [05:58]
A
I don't. I have four teams after that that I just wrote down, but I wouldn't put them in now if my life depended on it. And by the way, one of those teams is the Boston Celtics.
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B
Okay.
- [06:08]
A
Just full transparency.
- [06:09]
B
Yeah, no, that's fine. I get that, too. I mean, I understand that, like, listen, they have. That's been one of. I think one of the better stories in the. In the league is what they've done. Them and Philly. I think both of those teams, what they've been able to do with Boston not having Tatum and really just, I think, holes in their roster.
- [06:28]
A
Yeah.
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B
To be able to do what they've done. And in Philadelphia, the uncertainty of when Embiid's going to play. You didn't have Paul George start of the year. And when Embiid does play, it's a totally different style you adapt to. And those two teams are third and fourth in the Eastern Conference. I did not, for the life of me, see that coming. If you told me Embiid was missing the amount of time he's missed, and Paul George, there's no way. I have Philly probably in the top eight in the East. Boston, I thought at best they were going to probably be like, in that 5, 6, 7 area. So both of those teams have overachieved because they've been carried by a couple of guys offensively. But I get why you'd include Boston in that. Why not particularly, if these reports are that Tatum's going to come back in March and he might be back for a month before the playoffs would start. Yeah, they absolutely, probably should be Included to win the east at least. I don't know if any of these teams legitimately are beating Oklahoma City in a seven game series now. So the real question is like, who could be the last team standing against them in the west and who could be the last team standing from the Eastern Conference? That's how we're talking about.
- [07:31]
A
Yeah, you're comparing it almost to last year. Nobody would add Indiana as a contender, but all of a sudden they were in the finals and it didn't make sense as it was happening. And then it happened. Yeah, the four I had that, I just don't know. Boston, who's 33 to 1 to win the title right now, the Lakers 22 to 1, the Cavs 21, Orlando 35 to 1. And I think the Cavs in Orlando is a classic. Let's wait and see here. Two months I'm more concerned for the Cavs than Orlando. And I think with the Cavs, they've only had their top four and four of the 29 games. But there's a general malaise and there's just red flags going off. Plus the fact that they can't fix their roster. Orlando, we kind of know we have. They fit in Bain, you know, they're going to get healthier as the year goes along and I just, I think they're a safer bet. But I mean, the Cavs, can you figure it out at all, what's going on?
- [08:24]
B
I think, and I think to answer your question, the criteria I use when you hear the word contender for me is can you realistically see this team, like either in the Western Conference, that would mean in the conference finals.
- [08:40]
A
Yes.
- [08:40]
B
And if you're in the east, can you realistically see them in the NBA Finals? Like, I think that's the question. And that's why for me, what I've seen out of Cleveland is really disturbing. Now, I know that they've had health issues like a lot of teams, but there's something, there's a flatness about them and a lack of defensive presence that concerns me. I think Orlando for the most part has a toughness that they play with most nights. Yeah, they haven't been healthy either. They missed Bancaro for a while, comes back now you don't have Wagner. Bain struggled big time early, kind of. I think he was almost like a new place. It's always weird for a guy that's like a high volume shot taker, kind of trying to fit into this team. He's found his stride. So he's answered a lot of what they needed from a year ago. They just haven't had their top guys on the court for any sustained stretch with. With Wagner and Bankero last year included, till the second half of the year. So I'm actually.
- [09:36]
A
Cleveland could say that. Cleveland could say that, too. The difference is Orlando seems to have fight regardless of who's out there or not. And Cleveland, it comes and goes, and that's the part that's concerning.
- [09:49]
B
And I think I would differentiate the two of them this way. Here's why I would put them in different categories relative to what I thought their ceiling was and what I saw of them last year. I think Orlando's closer to that. They got a better chance to hit that. Cleveland is not the same. They were absolutely unstoppable offensively last year. And the Knights this year, when their offense has clicked, their defense hasn't been close to good off. And I don't know exactly everything that's going on, health's played a factor. But it's more than that. It's more than that. When you watch them last year, teams absolutely had no chance to try to slow them down or defend them. The way that they move the ball, the way they shot the ball, they. They ran you out of buildings with these huge runs. And a lot of times they would take place in the first half, they'd go up 15, 20 points. You know, early second quarter, that. That was like a regular night for them. You're not seeing that as much this year. So I think they're much further from what they were at their best a year ago compared to the Magic.
- [10:49]
A
Well, it feels like Detroit took their mojo and their identity and everything. Like last year, Cleveland, I forget how many games they won, but it was like 16, 17. It was over 15. And that's when you know you're a really good team and you can put together streaks. This Cleveland team that we have now, I don't think could win four in a row. But when I think of the Finals, though, I feel like you have to play defense. I need a top 10 player. Like, I'm just starting there. Even if you look at Indiana last year, which didn't make sense as it was happening, but by the end of the year, it felt like Caliburton was the top 10, 12 guy in the league. They had a good coach they could defend. They had a style that made sense when you watched it. And the east was just weird and flawed and strange. And the series where they beat the Cavs in five, that was just a weird series in general, Giannis got hurt. There were reasons for it. I still feel like you need that top 10 to 12 guy. So, like, when you mentioned the Lakers, even though I don't, their record is way better than, I think what the eye test is for them. And especially if they have one injury to anybody, it feels like they're just a completely different team. But they still have the star power. Yeah, I wouldn't want to see them in a series. I went to Lakers, Clippers Saturday night. Lex, no, Reeves. Luka gets hurt at the beginning of third quarter. Kawhi and LeBron, I'm not going to say they don't like each other, but there is a competitive dislike when they're on the court together. And it really was on at one point, and LeBron turned it on for about 10 minutes and he pulled the Lakers back to eight. I swear to God, he looked like LeBron again. And we're all sitting there going, this is unbelievable. Like, he's in his 40s now. We were like, how is he still doing this? And then they missed some shots. The moment faded away. But just watching that, I was like, all right, I'm not ruling these guys out yet.
- [12:37]
B
Yeah, I watched a good chunk of that game, and I was thinking the same thing. And that's one of the reasons that it just kind of belies what we all know about, you know, biomechanics and physiology for professional athletes, what he's doing. It's one thing to have good scoring nights at his age. Yeah, that even is kind of unprecedented at his age. But, like, even you get into your late 30s, if you're a. If you're a player on that level, you're still going to have nights where you score the ball. Well, what should not happen is that you look like one of the fastest guys on the floor.
- [13:09]
A
Right?
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B
Like that. That's what. That's what. When I watch him, I go, how does that make any sense whatsoever? How is it possible he can still look like the best athlete on the court for stretches of games north of 40, this many years into the league? And that's the other night, I think reminded you of that. And that's why for the Lakers, and I know a lot of people like that, they want to hate on the Lakers, and they look at this team and their defense is so bad some nights, and you go, don't include them in the mix. And I go, how can you really dismiss a team with those three guys if they're all healthy? Because there's not a team in this league that has three guys on that level that can command a defense and control the defense the way they can with their passing and scoring. Nobody has three of them on that level. And a guy like Luca, who's been, you know, for the most part throughout his career, pretty good big game player. LeBron, obviously, can you really completely dismiss them? So that's why they're going to hang.
- [14:06]
A
Around and be included and trade possibilities with them too, with all the expirings they have. Even last night, Draymond melted down again. Poor Steve Kerr, he just needs like a full time therapist, marriage counselor just to deal with the Warriors. But Draymond melts down again. And the difference this time around versus when he was, you know, at the level he was at, I just don't think he's quite at the same level anymore. So you have the same kind of up and down emotional stuff, but you're not backing up with the same play. Like he's shooting under 40% legs. He's like 39.8. His two point stuff is just gone. Doesn't the free throw, he doesn't get to the line. His turnovers are the highest they've ever been. And offensively he's just. Just kind of an afterthought. In a league where the centers have gotten bigger. There's. There's just every night there's a sengun, there's a Robert Williams and Clingan together. They. The league just has more size. And last night was the first night I was like, I wonder if they would trade him. Like, I wonder if. If there was a Rui Hachimura and a contract for Draymond. Just like, let's just mix this up and go in a different direction. Or with Sabonis sitting out there for the Kings, could that be a Draymond Kaminga and picks and let's just try to get a guy. But did your mind go there last night? Because this is yet again another Draymond saga.
- [15:27]
B
My mind's gone there for years, Bill, with regard to this story. For years. And last night and I was. People were hit me up today about it and I didn't see the game, but I went and watched what happened. I watched the interaction. I don't know exactly. It's hard to tell everything that was said. But I mean Steve Kerr is a fiery guy and so obviously this thing really escalated in that huddle. Moses Moody gets up at one point, he's trying to like get in between them to probably look to me to calm Draymond down more than anything. I will tell you this. And in the years that I played in the league and all the years I've covered the league, I saw guys get thrown out of huddles. I've saw guys get thrown off the bench and sent to the locker room. I saw guys get thrown out of practice. I never saw a guy by his own volition get up and walk to the locker room during the game. And so at the time, you're not sure, you can't tell, did Kurt throw him out of the huddle? And then you find out curses, no. And Draymond said the same thing. And then you know it's true. Because later Kerr was asked, well, when he came back to the bench, like early fourth quarter, whenever it was, were you going to put it back in the game? He said, no, absolutely not. Like it was the quickest answer. No, he left the team. He left the huddle, he went to the locker room. No, he was not going back in the game. I personally haven't seen it. Now. Maybe it has happened. I don't know of a time that it happened. Certainly not when my eyeballs saw it. That, to me is pretty big. That's a pretty big thing. You walk away from the team in a five point game. You know when your team's a 500 team, like every one of these matter and you just get up and leave because you say, oh, I just thought it'd be better for a cool down and kind of separate myself from the situation. It's really kind of uncharted territory in a lot of ways. You don't see this, and that's why I'm curious to see what the. Does this move the needle at all for them? When you combine it with some of his offensive issues he's had this year, which is a low point for him in his career.
- [17:30]
A
Yeah.
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B
Combined with this stuff and are the dividends with the winning and the leadership and the defense, is all that stuff still outweighing all of that? Because there was a time that no matter what the offense was, it was like good enough. And the emotional outburst, like, okay, because he was giving you world class playmaking IQ and defense, now you go, is that stuff still on that level to offset the offense plus this? And I think it's probably right about that point where it feels like almost a wash. So, like, what would they do? I still doubt they would ever do it and remove them, but I don't doubt it.
- [18:08]
A
I think they would. I think they would. And if I'm another team, like the reason this initially came up was, we're talking about the Lakers, right? A team that, when they put their best three guys together, have a lot of trouble on defense and the net ratings with LeBron and Reaves and Luka together just hasn't been good. It makes sense. You have three of the five guys you have out there and their defensive liabilities. LeBron's not a defensive liability if he's going all out, but I think it's hard for him to go out for two straight hours. You put Draymond on that team, reinvigorated with, I can't believe they traded me. I'm going to triple down and be a maniac. And that's kind of what the Lakers need. So I don't know that. That one struck out to me. And then just the Kings with. With the way that their rookie center has evolved, who I think is a gem. I mean, congrats to them, but I think Sabonis is expendable to them. And, you know, I want to talk about that later, but I. I think Sabonis is on the table and he should be. If you're the Kings, you stink anyway. Why wouldn't you trade him?
- [19:07]
B
Let me. Let me follow up first. What you said about Draymond. I completely agree with you, by the way. I think like there, it would be like that final adrenaline push from Draymond if something like that were to go down. I do think he's still a guy that's going to help somebody win games. There's no doubt when it's been the totality of how long it's going on in Golden State, and you reach his point, you look up, you're 500 team, you're at the end of the Curry era. You don't look like a team that can contend. Would you be willing to do it? I still don't think they would, but if they did, I do think there's something more there still for Draymond Green with something to prove if he were to go to a team that was playing for something and what he could add. Yeah, you're talking about one of the more competitive in Golden State the rest of the year.
- [19:54]
A
Well, you're talking about one of the most competitive non superstars we've had this century. And if they did trade him, the fire that would be lit under him. The bigger question for me is they're not. They're not on my contender list. They're not on yours either. They do need to do something. They only have a couple contracts. They're paying butler like almost 55 million. Curry's they're not trading. So it really moves down to like Kaminga plus contracts. And it just gets easier if it's with the way the apron is for Comminga Draymond. I like the fit for the Lakers. Obviously he has a long relationship with LeBron and you know, the clutch factor, which I don't even know matters anymore with the Lakers, but that one jumped out to me. And then could the warriors turn contracts and picks into one more premium guy? And if you were them, does that even matter? Has the ship sailed? Can you say the ship sailed? When you have Steph Curry.
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B
You kind.
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A
Of can't sail the ship as long as he's on the team, right?
- [20:56]
B
Totally agree with that. He can't. Curry, there's not been this, you know, big time discernible drop off in what he's capable of. There's just not enough on that team to where now you can, you can load up on him in a different way than you were ever able to. Defensively, you don't have to worry about the counters that they run and over committing to him the way they would make you pay in the past. This team doesn't do it to that extent. Even. Even Jimmy Butler, like when it ends up with Jimmy Butler's hands, that feels a lot different. If you've run two, it's Steph coming off a dribble handoff and the ball ends up back in Jimmy's hands. That's a lot different than what it used to look like when that ball ended up with Klay Thompson and a quick release three. And the way that they would just punish you if you tried to play on the top side of Steph or you didn't communicate the switches or the down screens properly and all that running he does, they punished you in a way they don't as much. And so no, it's just not enough. Curry to me was would still have that in him if he had enough around him. If you had to go and figure out a way to bring in a guy like we're talking about on that level, that's a needle mover for them, you would have a serious depth issue, most likely with his team. But if you had Jimmy Butler, you had Steph Curry and you added another star player to the mix. Very difficult to just dismiss Steph Curry's chances if he had one more guy like that.
- [22:22]
A
I like the Sabonis idea just because the offense that he brings and the playmaking and the way his hoops IQ offensively I think fits in with who they are and what they do. When we were texting about stuff to talk about today and we have a segment coming up that I'm excited about. But you mentioned how we're heading the dog days right now and how this gets dangerous for a bunch of reasons. One, the trade deadline's coming up.
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C
Your.
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A
Name gets thrown around. No matter what team you're on, all of a sudden you're on hoops hype, you're on NBA Today with shams. Like I'm hearing, you're in the rumor mill, you're on Twitter, there's Reddit boards making up fake trades about you. Everybody, like 10 teams are just completely unhappy. Five teams are probably happy, they suck. Another seven are like, could we be good? Maybe not, who knows? And then you have the seven, eight contenders. What is it like when you're on a team like this during the dog days? Like what are the danger signs and what can go wrong as you hit the holidays and the trade deadlines coming.
- [23:25]
B
Up tough because what happens is you get to this time of the year, the adrenaline from the newness of the season is gone. That's worn off. Now. Teams are starting to find out kind of like what they really are. When you've played a third of the season, you start to have a better idea, are you on the outside looking in or not? And that adrenaline you were getting from just the freshness. When every guy in the rotation thinks they're going to crack it and everybody thinks their role is going to be expanded and everybody's excited now everything has sunk in. The reality for every player and every team is sort of sunk in the adrenaline that you then get for the playoffs. That's too far off in the future. So this middle third of the season, these are the toughest games. Not to mention the fact a lot of these road games are in really cold places. Like all that stuff. Like I remember being in like when I was playing in the league, like being in Washington and then middle of the winter you'd get that two game trip to Miami, Orlando and it was like, oh my God, thank God you come out of the hotel and like your joints felt good. Like you went to shoot around and it was like this lightness in the air and. Cause it was warm and you felt it was fun. You wanted to go play pickup ball. Like this is like this is great. A lot of these cities it's not man. Like you're bundled up getting off the bus.
- [24:47]
A
So Minnesota doesn't have that right.
- [24:49]
B
Exactly. A lot of cities in the league. Check that box. So that's kind of there all the time. You know, the injury and fatigue is sort of there and you're still like a couple months away from like the horizon when the real meaningful stuff comes. So this is the toughest time of the year and this is when because of it, there can be lulls with teams that change the way front offices view certain guys that weren't really going to be involved in being moved. This is the tough time of the year when there could be this law from a production standpoint or your team starts losing games because all the things I just mentioned pile up and now they make a move that was kind of not foreseen. And I think that that's the danger that you run into in this 15 to 20 game stretch we're about to start.
- [25:37]
A
And there's the adrenaline rush. If you do make a move, it's.
- [25:40]
B
Like, hey, no doubt about it. Woo.
- [25:42]
A
Look at us. The Celtics are in a unique situation just cause they have this Tatum comeback looming, right? So it's like you have the playoffs far away, but then you're also like, hey, we're hanging tough here, we're a three seed and we might get the guy who was third in MVP last year back. Spurs, I think, is another one that I don't. You know, it's been so rare for them to have all their guys and Wemby was out, he's back now. You see as they try to figure out with Castle and Harper, with Wemby and Fox, like just having those four guys playing together for a month straight, I think is a huge win for them. Houston's the one I'm watching from. I don't want to say Malay's standpoint, but just a. And you're getting them on Christmas and we're taping this before the Tuesday games today, but they lost three OT games in the last week. Their net rating, all their rebounding, stuff like that, we don't need to make the cases for why they're, why they're great. They almost have too many options at crunch time. Where I like, sometimes I feel like they're too heavy on going to Shengoon. When you have Durant there, you have Shepard, who's been lights out. Thompson feels like he can beat anybody one on one. You got Jabari in the corner. And I think they're almost trying to figure out like, well, we have more offense than we realized. What are we. So what are they?
- [27:01]
B
Well, here's the thing that they're dealing with Right now they've got to be better at end of game offense. And actually it's even starting before the end of the game. What teams have been doing lately to the Rockets, Kevin Durant's getting hit with these blitzes at half court, even when there's not a ball screen like he's coming over half court. And teams are sort of. It almost looks at first like they're morphing into some sort of a zone and then that second guy on top just runs up and they're forcing him to give the ball up over half court. It's happened throughout the game, but it's particularly been prevalent in like the fourth quarters of these games and they have not handled it well. I don't like their identity offensively in close games. I did one thing I said when they got Durant, obviously they needed the offensive firepower. This was an elite defensive team, an elite rebounding team. They didn't have enough. They didn't have guys you trust down the stretch. And Shen Goon, as good as he is, is not a guy that's like got every answer to be your guy down the stretch of fourth quarters like some of the stars in this league. He's not a Jokic, he's not a Shea, he's not a Tatum, like he's not a Curry. He's not on that level offensively. So they got by with their defense, rebounding. Where's the offense coming from? They get Kevin Durant. I didn't want them to be just all about Durant late in games, like give him the ball and just let him go. Like that's how they're going to play offense. It's not good enough in this league. Not against the Oklahoma City Thunder, which was the team they were comparing themselves to. Well, now you're finding teams are just getting the ball out of his hands and they're not worried about what's happening on the back end of that, with how Houston is making them pay for that. That's their big riddle to solve. And I'm going to do a heavy dive on the last couple of games before I do the Christmas night game to see when that surfaces in that game, which if I know JJ Redick, it's going to because he's been watching their results as well. What is the problem with why they're not able to capitalize more on those possessions and why their end of game offense hasn't been very good. And the New Orleans game was the one that stands out to me. You know, blowing a lead against A team like that, look, they've won five straight games, they're playing better, but it's the Pelicans, and you've got almost a 20 point lead in that game in the second half. You've got to close that game. You can't lose that game. And it really was about their offense letting them down. And so that's, to me, what I'm looking at with them right now. They don't have a great identity offensively down the stretch of games, Bill, and they don't know how to play out of teams blitzing Durant and giving it up and how to make you pay because there's not enough shooting on the floor most times. And maybe the Amen Thompson factor isn't quite what they thought it would be with that leap. So that's really been their biggest issue. Teams are figuring them out a little bit in that way. They've got to have an answer for that now.
- [29:43]
A
Yeah, the shooting piece is the thing that jumps out to me because I feel like when I watch them, I like when Shepherd's out for them and when he's out there in crunch time for them, I just think he solves issues. And they also get fast breaks when he's out there and when they don't, they just seem like they slow down. But I, I swear I, I, I see the same thing with you, with how clumsy the crunch time is. And yet I like all their options. I feel like there's stuff they haven't explored. Like, I like they never set picks for, they never have Shepard come up and set picks at the top of the key, right? So, like, do like a little high screen with Durant, use him as a screener the same way some teams use their best guards. It seems like they fall in this habit of like, shit, all right, Sengun, and they just dump it to him, which I don't think can work in a playoff series for two weeks. It's too easy to stop. So they'll figure it out.
- [30:35]
B
Yeah, they don't have, in my opinion, enough motion off of their entry to Shingoon or Durant.
- [30:43]
A
Everybody stands.
- [30:44]
B
It turns into a lot of standing and watching. And, you know, for Amin, that means he's going to probably slash or get a lob or get on the offensive glass they've got. It's crazy because they shoot the second highest percentage in the league from the three. But the reason that is because they take fewer than anybody. So, like, they're so selective in their shots now. To their credit, they're taking Shots that they can make that that's good in some ways refreshing that they're not taking 45, 50 threes like a lot of teams this league. That's fine. They're taking 30, which is a very low number in this league. They shoot a high percentage, but it feels like they don't move off the ball or keep weak sides occupied at all when the ball gets dumped into Shingun or they're letting Durant kind of go into his thing. And so offensively at times it kind of bogs down to the point where they look guardable and it feels like they got more talent than that.
- [31:44]
A
What team would you have wanted to come off the bench for and play 15 minutes as you watch all these teams, I just have to ask because we're in an era now where a team shoot 45 threes a game. Oh, it's a dream team for you when you watch it.
- [31:56]
B
Take your pick. I mean there, there's, there's, there's a ton of teams that like, you know that when there's not a shot on the court that can be taken that anybody would frown at, it's, it's like nirvana. Like Cleveland would be a team I would think of like there is no three point shot that any of their spot up shooter guys can take that anybody even bats an eye at. And I know this because I'll be sitting there courtside sometimes calling a game and a shot will be taken three seconds into the shot clock, heavily contested, like off one pass. And I immediately, my eyes immediately divert to the coaching staff in that situation and no one reacts to it at all. And like I'm going, wow. So I guess it's just, yeah, just live with everything. So there's a lot of teams in this league that I can't imagine the mental freedom that a lot of guys have that kind of played a similar style game.
- [32:48]
A
To me, you would enjoy the Simons role on the Celtics when he's trying to basically carry offense when, when Jaylen's out and one of the guards is out and like Simon's just with no shot is, is bad. Just take all of them. We're going to take a break and then we're going to play a little game called guys who are even better than you think.
- [33:07]
B
I like it.
- [33:08]
A
This episode is brought to you by Prime Video. It's a special Christmas edition of Thursday Night Football. It's only on prime. This week. The Denver Broncos take on the Kansas City Chiefs on Christmas night. Cap off your holiday with an old school rivalry. Weird tab Mahomes. Not in this one, but Denver is still going for the one seed. Kansas City's going for pride. So there's still some stuff. Plus some other reasons you could talk yourself into this game too. Coverage begins at 7:30pm Eastern with Football's Best Party TNF Tonight, presented by Verizon. Could be your fantasy finals. Who knows? Not a Prime member? Not a problem. Simply sign up for a 30 day free trial. It's the Broncos and Chiefs Thursday, 7:30pm Eastern, only on Prime Video restrictions apply. See Amazon.com amazonprime for details. This episode is brought to you by Loom. Packed calendars, nonstop emails. Yeah, work can have you feeling pretty stuck sometimes. Get your team unstuck with Loom by Atlassian. It's AI powered video messaging that lets you quickly record your screen, your camera and your voice to share updates with your team whenever, wherever, even across time zones. Unstuck your process, projects and teams with video communication from Loom. Try Loom today. Loom. Com that is L O O M Com. All right, here's the task. Tim Leger Guys who are even better than you think. And here's the premise. These might be people people aren't talking about enough, which is kind of an overused sports media thing where we're like, people aren't talking about blank. Usually we're talking a little bit or people who are actually really good, but we don't even understand how good they are or actually what is happening beyond even a level you might have expected. So I made a whole list. I asked you to make a whole list. Let's just go back and forth. Who was the first guy, given the parameters of this, that you thought of?
- [35:01]
B
Jalen Johnson. He's the first guy for me.
- [35:05]
A
Like he's on my list as well.
- [35:07]
B
He's kind of blowing me away right now with how easy he's making this look. This guy's not just putting up like, you know, 22, eight and six nights. This guy is having like 35, 13 and nine nights. Like, you're talking about the numbers that you see a Jokic put up or a Luka put up. He's doing that damn near every night now. He had an opportunity to get extended freedom when Trey was hurt, but it hasn't stopped since Trey came back. It's his team. And the thing I was actually watching the other night and I was thinking to myself, man, does this guy's smoothness hurt him? Because it's so effortless that it almost looks like there's a lack of Intensity, because it's that easy for him. And I don't think, I don't think there is a lack of intensity.
- [36:02]
A
You know what that Ryan threw me up actually is, is. It's a little tmacish because I agree with you. Everything is so smooth. It almost seems like he's not going all out, but he is going all out because he just, his muscles just move differently. He's averaging 24, 11 and 8 right now.
- [36:18]
B
That's insane, man. And, and, and I think if you take away like the first month of the season, those numbers are significantly higher than that. Like, I mean, he's, he's had stretches of 10 games where he's been averaging over 30 points a game, double digit rebounds and almost 10 assists. Like, these are the numbers reserved for the true top tier alphas in this league. And he has been doing that pretty much all year for Atlanta. So he would, he was the first guy I thought of and it's crazy because he took a big leap last year and I'm going, well, you know, you talk about the most improved player and stuff like that. Typically it doesn't go to guys like this who already arrived at a certain level last year and now they just take it to like those guys usually get excluded. But to me, he's so much better than he was last year. I don't think it's blasphemous to throw him into that conversation.
- [37:08]
A
Yeah, like six weeks ago when the honest trade stuff started and I was saying how I thought Atlanta made was the team that made the most sense because of the picks, the assets expirings. But I was saying Jalen Johnson can't be in it. Like, I'm not trading Giannis unless I get to also keep Jalen Johnson because now I have these two guys together.
- [37:26]
B
Yes.
- [37:27]
A
And some people are pushing back, like, especially like the Bucks fans that I know are like, well, we're getting Jalen Johnson and Yanis trade. Like, that's ridiculous. I'm like, I don't think they're trading Jalen Johnson six weeks later, untouchable. Like I, if I'm the, if I'm them. And you're like, you could have Giannis for Jalen Johnson. Obviously you'd have to have a seven hour meeting about it. But I would much rather have the younger guy who keeps ascending and try to figure out a way to also bring Giannis into it versus, you know, making him the centerpiece. I just don't think there's a world where they trade him at this point.
- [38:00]
B
I totally agree. Because of this, the explosion in his offense over the last 18 months. There's no telling what the ultimate ceiling is. When you have a guy that young, that talented, who's doing it this easily, like you, you really don't even know how much more there is to grow. So the uncertainty of that is so risky to give up on and send somewhere else. Because even though Giannis is a more known commodity right now, you also know 100% what his ceiling is. You don't have any idea what Jalen Johnson's ceiling is. So that would be, to me, a really risky, dangerous thing. And again, to your point, I'm not considering trying to acquire him unless I can figure out a way to pair them together, because I want something special. I don't want just sort of this. This, you know, one in, one out type situation. We got this in, but we lost all this. Are you going to feel like you're kind of in the same boat where you were, even though Giannis, I agree, is on a different level right now? I couldn't give up on all that upside without knowing I would lose sleep over that as a gm, knowing I moved. A guy like that that's grown this much in a year and a half.
- [39:06]
A
He's only 24 years old. Giannis, who's had been dinged up with some injuries the last couple of years, there was a lot of miles on him already. You need Johnson with Giannis, and that's the only reason to do it. So I still feel like that's the honest trade that makes sense. Everybody seems to feel like it's going to be till the summer, but when you see The Bucks are 11 and 18, plus they have that New Orleans pick, plus they have some other stuff. Who knows? My first guy. You're going to laugh. Nicole Jokic just, I. I just want to talk about the stats because I. We're used to it now. It's been a whole decade of this, but right now he's averaging a 29, 12 and 11. He's shooting 61%, but 41% from three. He has a 34.9 PR, which is like two and a half points higher than his usual. He's leading the NBA in rebounds and assists, which I didn't realize until today. Did you know that?
- [40:03]
B
Yeah, I did know that. It's been going on for a while because it came up with a. One day a researcher sent me a note because we were talking about him on some segment and it was like he'd be the first one Ever to do it ever. If he could pull this off.
- [40:16]
A
By the way, he's leading Cade by one and a half assists and he's leading Towns by a half a rebound. He's also only five guys ever have gone 25 plus points a game and 60%. But the, I was like, I thought Wilt did it. And it's like, no, Wilt led the league in assists that one year. He also led the league in rebounds that one year. He led the league in points, but he's never did the assist rebounds at the same time. So I, I, you just look at the basketball reference and you watch the six years as he just keeps somehow getting better. And I actually think it doesn't get enough attention.
- [40:49]
B
Well, Bill, I was, I was fortunate enough last year and my buddy Dave Pash and I talked about this in the moment right after the game, back at the hotel. Have the glass of wine. The next day we were continuing to talk. We were the two guys honored with calling the 30, 20, 20 game.
- [41:10]
A
Oh my God.
- [41:11]
B
That Yokich had last year. Yeah, 30, 20, 20. And it was one of those nights. And you get this sometimes in the league where like the social media reaction from other star players over that performance, it was incomprehensible that someone could do that to have that kind of statistical impact in any given game. You can't believe you actually saw it. And we were the two guys that were able to call that game. So, yeah, for me, I don't know that he's better than I think he is. It doesn't sound like he's better than you think he is. But I still think you're probably right. There's probably a large portion of people that don't genuinely understand what this guy is doing on a nightly basis, which is still shocking to think he could have the year he had last year and not win the mvp. And Shay deserved it too. I didn't know.
- [42:06]
A
And she's probably going to win it this year. If they go 75 and 7, Shea's going to win.
- [42:10]
B
I've been saying, I've been saying for the last two weeks, listen, the guy's numbers are better. They could potentially could break the record for wins in a season. Yeah, they didn't substantially improve their team from a personnel standpoint, so they're running it back. He's every bit as good. How can you guarantee you get another mvp? No matter what Jokic does is, well, let's do something historically great, let's be an all time great team. And they're on their way to do that. So to me, I think it's going to be very difficult for Jokic, particularly if there's another 10, 12, 15 game gap between OKC and everybody else in the West. It's going to be very difficult for Jokic to be able to get one. You're going to talk about two of the greatest years in the history of this league if this happens, to not win an mvp.
- [42:59]
A
Well, that was to back my guy, Larry Bird. His best year ever was 87. Didn't win the MVP. Sometimes it happens, Sometimes it's a narrative. Sometimes it's how your team's doing. All right, your next guy, who is it?
- [43:12]
B
The next guy I would go to off this list. I'm going to go with AJ Mitchell. I'm going with AJ Mitchell because right now he's been like, okay, wow, AJ Mitchell. People are like noticing this guard on the Oklahoma City Thunder that got a chance to play because Jalen Williams was out.
- [43:29]
A
Yeah.
- [43:30]
B
I'm watching a guy that at some point, and I don't know when it's going to happen because if he stays in Oklahoma City a long time, it's not going to happen there because of those two guards and how young those two players are. SGA and Jalen Williams. Maybe it's somewhere else a few years down the road. I think this guy legitimately has like all star potential.
- [43:52]
A
Well, so you'd feel like like 20, 21. Brunson.
- [43:56]
B
Yes.
- [43:56]
A
Kind of ish.
- [43:57]
B
Yeah.
- [43:57]
A
Okay.
- [43:58]
B
Yeah, yeah, I do. Now, look, will he. Will he top out at, you know, 27, 28 points a game and be in the MVP discussion? I don't know, but I'm not going to rule it out because Jalen Brunson so blew out the ceiling of what I thought he was as a player. I probably missed his ceiling more than any player I've ever covered Jalen Brunson's. I thought Jalen Brunson was going to be a like 15 point a game guy on a mediocre team or like a really good backup guard on a contender, but not an MVP guy that can get on any night, 30, 40 points, like just whenever he feels like it. I never thought he was this. So I'm not going to say A.J. mitchell can't become that. But yes, it's got that sort of feel to it. Backing up two great players. In Brunson's case, it was Jokic. It was. I'm sorry, Luka.
- [44:50]
A
Luka.
- [44:51]
B
In this case, it's sga. Jalen Williams as the off guard. I think this guy potentially, when he gets his own team, puts the ball on his hip and run, is running the show. I think AJ Mitchell is potentially like going to become a star. When that happens, I don't know. And what would have to change circumstantially for him? Probably a lot to get those kind of numbers that I'm talking about, but I think he's capable of it.
- [45:15]
A
I 100% agree. I hate when we just agree all podcasts, but I 100% agree with that one. My next guy. I got to go. Homer pick. I can't believe how good Jalen Brown has been offensively this year. I'd already decided on him as a player and I was a Jalen defender. I thought I knew who he was. I thought he had maxed out whatever his ceiling was. Probably two years ago during the playoff run there were some flaws that were just going to be there that we lived with and that's just who he was going to be. We knew he was probably going to score a little more this year without Tatum. Right. But I thought it was going to be more high volume threes. I thought his field goal percentage was going to go down. First of all, I think he's. It's him or Jalen Johnson for best forward in the league right now. I just think if you're talking about pure forwards, I don't count Giannis as a center. I'm not counting him as a forward. The one on one stuff this year has been so sophisticated. He did it again against Indiana last night and I know Indiana stinks, but Indiana was trying. He was going against Siakam. He was going against a team that's well coached and kind of knows how to help out. He's just, he has this whole bag of moves now. He's got that. One of the last times you were here we talked about. He's got this move where it seems like he's going to drive with his right hand in the basket and he stops and does this low crossover 12 footer. He's got this kind of almost like Brunson esque pound you down, plays off you and then has this extra footwork now where he'll take this extra step and do these spin layups. I just, I love how he's playing. I think his been more unselfish than ever. He's averaging 29 a game. 29, 6 and 5. He's shooting 50% and his free throws are up legs 7.6 free throws. He was never a big free throw Guy, he was always like a settle for threes, don't go to the basket guy. And I just think he's been awesome, and I kind of can't believe it. And this is not a small sample size. This is now one third of the season.
- [47:18]
B
I love this one because I think. Here's what I'm seeing from him. First of all, it's very rare that a player in his 10th year can find another level offensively than what you thought you knew. And I think what you're seeing is he. There's no deference at all on the court when he's playing with Jason Tatum. There is a level of deference that takes place that can affect his nights. And if Tatum gets cooking on a certain night, particularly if it's early in the game, that can affect Jalen Brown's night to a certain extent. And just the fact that he's there and you got, like, kind of got, like, one eye. Knowing where Jason Tatum is because of his level and his profile and the shadow he casts in the league will take Jason Tatum off the court right now for Jaylen Brown. And everyone defers to him. He doesn't get that feeling that often because he hasn't had to do it. And so for me to be able to take it to this level with the opportunity that's presented really has impressed me. Second highest field goal percentage in a season of his career. 50% more free throw attempts per game than his than his highest single season. So, like, take whatever season you want in his career. The highest free throw attempts per game, he's shooting basically two and a half more free throws a game than that. I think it's his career high in assists. Yes. So his playmaking has been there as well, and it shows you, man. You know what? This guy had a lot more in his bag than you really thought, because he didn't have to demonstrate it every night because he had Jason Tatum as, like, the ultimate crutch, like, to lean on during stretches of games and stretches of seasons. And that's not the case. It's his show, and he's showing you what he's capable of doing. So I totally agree with you. And I think he and Tyrese Maxey have got to get a lot of talk right now for what they've done with those two teams to keep them positioned where they are with all the uncertainty and injuries that those teams have dealt with, delivering every single night as the targeted guy for defenses, and they're still finding out a way to get to 30, pretty much every night.
- [49:28]
A
I think both of them should be in conversation for First2Mall NBA. And that's probably like a nine guy list, but I think both of them should be in there. The thing that with Jalen, he had time to prepare for this because Tatum got hurt in the beginning of May and you know, like, all right, I'm going to be the guy next year. How do I get better? And I think he took so much shit over the last couple years for, like, can't dribble with his left, loses the ball too much, settles for threes, doesn't hit big free throws at the end of games. Oh, now that Tatum's gone, watch how bad Jalen's going to be. And I think all that stuff really helped him. Like, he came in, he fixed every flaw that he had. Like, he, like, he can go with his left a little bit. He does have this crossover now. Like, teams poke at him to try to steal the ball and they don't get it anymore. The last thing I'd mention, he has gone toe to toe with the best guys in the league and matched their offense, which I think is the last. This is what Cade started to do last year. If you're going to just swim in the pools against the better teams and the best teams, you still at some point need a guy. You need like, oh, shit, it's 104.
- [50:37]
B
104.
- [50:37]
A
Four minutes left. Where are we going? This is now a yin yang game. Who's my guy? You saw it with Edwards on OKC on Friday. Edwards thought he was the alpha on the court. Like, he's insane. But he really believed it and he beat OKC and he made the biggest shot. Jalen thinks he belongs on the court with all these dudes. He's like, who am I playing tonight? Oh, we got Max tonight. Oh, it's Luca tonight. Like, he thinks he's on the level with all those guys, and this year he's played like he is. So that attitude, I think, is one of the reasons they've been really good. Who's your next guy?
- [51:08]
B
Next guy I'll go with is Reed Shepherd. And here's the thing. I really liked him coming out, so I was a believer. Yeah, I saw him initially in summer league and I was super impressed. Like, I called his first Vegas summer league game last year. Like, the first time we saw him in a Rockets uniform. And I was so impressed in that game because I had not seen him in person. And what you. What you pick up on in person is this guy's athletic ability. He has tremendous elevation on his mid range and because he doesn't look very big, he's actually listed bigger than he looks. When you see him on the court.
- [51:46]
A
Have you stood next to him?
- [51:48]
B
I have, yeah. Yeah.
- [51:49]
A
So what is like 5? Are we talking like 5 11?
- [51:51]
B
No, no, he's bigger than that, but he's bigger than that. But like when you, when you look at him moving out on the court against some of the like longer armed guards and stuff that he's playing against, he looks like one of those smaller guys. He almost looks Mark Price ish to me. Right. And I was watching him and I'm going, well, how does he get this stuff off like in the middle of the floor? And this was a point, by the way. He wasn't really making threes in summer league. He wasn't making threes last year at a high rate. So it was like, how was he even scoring? Well, he's scoring because the mid range was. He was more comfortable with before the three point shooting at the NBA level because he gets off the ground and I have frozen it on touchscreens to take a look at deep defenders that were right there and they both jump at the same time. And he's given up three inches to a guy with a long reach and he's just goes up where his foot is like basically at knee level from the guy that's jumping to contest. Because his bounce is so good, he can get that shot off. And that is what triggered what we're seeing now. He was going to that more often early in the year because he still wasn't making threes. And that kept his confidence up until the deep shot started to fall. And once that started to fall, this guy now has become one of the most important players on their team. And you knew Van Vliet was out, the opportunity was going to be there. Didn't look like he was going to jump on it early in the year. He's jumped all over it now and like they. I don't know where Houston would be without what Reed shepherd is giving them from a shooting standpoint and from just a bench production standpoint now.
- [53:26]
A
Yeah, when Van Vliet got hurt, the best, best case scenario for Houston was that Reed shepherd could play some minutes and, and be serviceable or better and that, that I think he's been above that. I, I really like him. I agree with you. The Mark Price thing stands out when you watch them, not just because they're both white guys, but just he has this, he has this 80s, 90s style that I think has gone away because we've moved more toward these like donovan Mitchell Type 0 guards, guys who have the ball a lot, but they're not like these pure point guards that we grew up with. And I just think he's one of. I like watching him on fast breaks. Like he's one of those guys. He kind of knows what to do and where to go and who to make the extra pass to and when to give the ball up.
- [54:09]
B
And I want to make one more quick point on him because this is. I lived this in some way, some regards. It's amazing how when he was struggling to make shots early, like his rookie year and even the very beginning of this year, but most of all of last season, all of a sudden because you're not making shots, some of the stuff defensively gets like overly scrutinized, right. Because the ball's not going in on the other end. Now he's making shots and like now he's getting a lot of credit for like lateral quickness and he's really scrappy with his hands and he's, he's always been that. He's really good at raking on guys. Like, he's just got very quick and very good anticipation defensively. So it's funny how the ball starts going on the other end. Like all of a sudden the narrative completely changes. Even though you're exactly the same player in terms of your defensive competitiveness, now all of a sudden it's becoming something they talk about as a strength of yours when before it was like this obvious weakness because the ball wasn't going in. So he give him credit because that's not an easy thing to change the narrative one. And he kind of has done that because he's been so good offensively for them.
- [55:18]
A
He's also, and I say this as a compliment, he's a little bit of a dick.
- [55:22]
B
Oh no, he's got a swagger, man.
- [55:24]
A
He's got, he's feisty and it's, There's a little. I always thought I was right about John Stockton, like what an asshole he was. And he would just set these cheap picks and he would trip people and he was just scrappy because he had to be. He was one of the smallest guys out there.
- [55:37]
B
Yeah, he got a shot blocked the other night by Bruce Brown on a pull up jumper and Brown blocked on a baseline and knocked it into the crowd and started woofing at him. And at this point Reed shepherd was already like, came off the bench. I think he hit his first Three threes. So he's already, like, rolling. And Bruce Brown, like, blocks his shot and has all this stuff to say to him. And you could see him, like, smirking and going back at him. And I was kind of sitting there. I was like, I wish I could, like, had a thought bubble right now and, like, what's coming out of his mouth right now? Because, like, to get challenged like that, when you're starting to play well, you feel yourself a little bit like you're not going to take that. And he went right back at him. He ended up having. In that game, he had, like, 28 points.
- [56:16]
A
He was awesome.
- [56:17]
B
He was incredible.
- [56:18]
A
Pritchard had a. Not to compare him to another white guy, but it's the same thing. Like, you're the undersized white guard. People are going to make runs at you. They're going to talk shit to you. And especially if you're not hitting shots all the time, all the kind of warts just seem bigger. Prichard developed the same thing. Like, he talks as much shit as anybody, and he's super confident, and he's an irrational confidence guy, and he kind of has to.
- [56:41]
B
I actually thought that's who you were going to say when you led it with. We were talking about guys that are.
- [56:45]
A
Better than you think.
- [56:46]
B
And you said, this is like a homer take. I thought you were going to.
- [56:49]
A
You thought it was going to be Pritchard. Interesting.
- [56:50]
B
I did. I thought you were going to say, yeah, because it seemed like it would lend itself to this conversation. Can I tell you something? The first time I saw him in person, I called the game last year in Phoenix, and I was like, this dude's sneakers make a different noise than everybody else's sneakers on the court. Like, the speed with which his feet move. And like, that squeaky sound if you get. You broke it down with some headphones and listen to it. Like, you're like, that doesn't sound like anybody else's feet because his feet are moving so, so quick. Like, he's way quicker than I thought he was when I saw him in person. And I love that whole story with him and, like, what he's turned himself into. And again, like, you look at where Boston is without Tatum, and Jalen Brown deserves certainly most of the credit. Missoula should get a lot, too. And then it would be Peyton Pritchard, man, right there as, like, the next guy stepping in now as a starter and playing as well as he has.
- [57:49]
A
I have two picks here. I'll go with. Since we're on A white guy.
- [57:55]
C
Run.
- [57:56]
A
I don't understand this Colin Gillespie thing. Oh, man, I just don't understand it. I looked at his basketball reference. He was on Denver two years ago. Did you even know?
- [58:05]
B
Yep. And I got wait 23 games for them. Did you and I not talk about this earlier when I was on with you, about my. My background with Colin Gillespie?
- [58:15]
A
I don't remember your background with Colin Gillespie. I don't think we've talked about it.
- [58:18]
B
I coached AAU for seven years and my team was based in South Jersey and my son was on that team. And it started out they were like 10 years old with mostly local kids. And the better local kids that came through my camp, that's where I handpicked these kids. So you start playing local tournaments in the Philly area. And he was with a program called the Northeast Sting in Northeast Philadelphia. And his story in high school is incredible. No scholarship offers going into his senior year. Outplays a kid going to Kentucky in the Catholic League playoffs. He has like 43 points against a kid quad A Green who's going to Kentucky. And his dream was to get one scholarship offer from Delaware was the way it was. The narrative was he ends up. Jay Wright, sees the game, offers him, he goes on to become Big east player of the year like twice. And now he's in the league. So. But here's the thing. We played that team like 10 times and it was started with the Northeast thing, and then we started playing him on the Under Armour turn circuit. It was like higher level stuff. And I kept seeing this white guard that I just loved his game and they were never able to beat us. I think we were like probably 10 and O against his AAU team over the course of his youth career. And the guy goes on to do what he's doing now. So, yeah, I knew where he was. I've been following his career from day one. And in fact, the first time I saw him at a game last year, he came running across the court and shake my hand because he remembered those battles, like when I was coaching against him and I told him how happy I was for his success and I always admired his game. Do you know that this year, Colin Gillespie has scored 90 more points this season, a third of the way in than he has in his NBA career to this point total.
- [59:52]
A
I would. I would have believed even a higher number. Yeah, I don't understand why he didn't play last year on a team that desperately needed a point guard and somebody who give a shit. And he was basically bear on that.
- [60:02]
B
Team he's tough as nails, man, he is. That kid has so much confidence and belief in himself and it's the typical, like Villanova, like Brunson had it, they just, they belong in the bright lights. Like they like that moment. Because he's been on the floor for Phoenix a lot in the fourth quarter. Oh yeah, and he's made plays defensively too because he's got great instincts defensively. So he's come up with timely steals or a deflection or whatever it may be. He's never in the wrong place if it's his turn to trap or rotate. But then on the other end he's like made big shots.
- [60:36]
A
So yeah, they trust him.
- [60:38]
B
Credible story.
- [60:39]
A
They trust him running offense too. Yeah, he's over 40% on threes. He's, he's just jumped out over and over again trying to figure out what was going on with this weird Suns team that's just played well and really gives a shit.
- [60:51]
B
Yeah, I saw him for the first time, he was like 13 years old and now here he is, an impact player for one of the surprise teams in the league.
- [60:58]
A
Unbelievable. Well, I do think he fits into a theme that started last season and is carried over to this season effort, as weird as that sounds. These teams and players that just really seem to care game to game, quarter to quarter, half to half. And now that we've moved to this league where there's more full court pressure, people picking stuff up at half court, you kind of need these agitator perimeter guys. The Celtics have a slew of them, but Phoenix, I look at the team they have, it didn't make sense before the year I went under on their wins, 31 and a half. They just have a bunch of hard nosed dudes that actually care and want to mix it up and roll their sleeves up and really fight. And I think that hurts. These teams like these Cleveland teams that are just kind of in a fog waiting for the playoffs to start and they don't want to get in fights with these teams, they don't want to battle, they don't want to roll up their sleeves and, and all of a sudden they're down 12, they're down 15. But he's, to me, he typifies that. And I think there's other, other guys like that. I think Knipple's been like that, you know, like Jordan Walsh on the, on the Celtics when he was playing was another one who's just like, he just really gives a shit. Hugo. Hugo, I always call him Hugo. Hugo on the Celtics now, he, he's just a maniac. And I just feel like we've had more and more maniacs in the league. I don't know. I, I can't think of a reason either.
- [62:18]
B
No, I think you're, you're hitting on something. I think now teams are now identifying the value added to, to what you're doing, like energy with energy with guys that are willing to kind of push themselves to the limit in terms of fatigue and stamina, like, and continue to like what you're talking about. The ball pressure up the floor, that's definitely been something that's increased in the league last couple of years. The other thing that you see on a nightly basis on the teams, right, and you notice it when you can force the initial pass to the wing, like that first entry pass to start your offense, when that can be denied and pushed out to 38ft on the catch. 30ft on the catch. It's amazing what that ends up doing to your possession and the timing of the next action that teams are trying to run. So now coaches are rewarding guys that want to do that. They're not just going to kind of be back there, lazily let the guy pop out, catch it right at the three point line, where now all of the timing and the cuts are the way the coach drew it up. When you forced that first catch out on the floor, everything is off from that point. Denying ball reversals to the top of the key. Like, that's a big one. If you can force the ball reversal out to like 30 plus feet, it's amazing how much more difficult it is to score with what the next action was supposed to be. On the weak side of the floor, fighting guys in the post for position, not just conceding it. Let him catch it and like, okay, that's right. I'm getting a double team and they waving for help now. How about you fight that guy first to not let him catch it where he wants it, front him, do everything you can to let the ball come in easily. It wears on the guy. It also creates timing issues. It wears the clock down for teams offensive. Like all that stuff. It seems like now is being rewarded with guys that otherwise might not have been able to crack the rotation.
- [64:04]
A
Yeah, I wonder if it would change the concept of team building. Like you like okc, everything you just laid out, this is one of the things OKC is the best at. Not to mention all the other, all the talent they have, all the great shots they get, but they just make it so hard for other teams offensively. And then I look like Detroit is another one where it's just hard to play them. They're a pain in the ass. I look at a team like the Clippers and I have my LA friends like, oh, my God, what's wrong with the Clippers? They can turn it down. You can feel it when you go to the games. They don't have enough of these crazy energy guys. Their energy is, like, super low. They have all these guys who have accomplished a bunch of stuff. It's an older team, you know, and you just kind of feel the energy sag and they go against the wrong team and it just. It's almost. You're watching going, the other team's trying harder. Maybe they aren't, but it feels that way. And they just kind of don't want to mix it up like that. They don't want to roll their sleeves up. I can't remember who was up, but I had. I wanted to mention Khalil Ware on Miami, who's turned into a 1211 guy, and I wanted your take on this. I just like him. I mean, he's playing 24 minutes a game, 25 minutes a game. Put up double doubles. If you redrafted 24. And Castle was first, I think Castle has to be first. I don't even think it's an argument, right?
- [65:21]
B
Yes.
- [65:22]
A
And then I gave you Sar, Ware or Shepherd as the next three in some order. What would your order be?
- [65:29]
C
Oh, man.
- [65:30]
A
Castle first, Sarw, shepherd, and you have the second pick based on what you've seen for the last year.
- [65:37]
B
And a third man, that is tough because I do think Alex Saar has, like, offensive capabilities that Khalil Ware's never going to have. And it's really intriguing because he's so long and he actually. There's nights when he's really impactful eventually. Now, look, he's on a team that, you know, no one's paying attention to. It's not winning. It's a different environment. I'd love to see him on a competitive team and maybe he'll get that at some point in his career sooner than later. The overall package there is more significant than where's now where on a certain team, if you want to plug a guy in, like, with what he does, well, he can be a massive difference maker, as I think he is in Miami. But just in terms of the two players, Saar probably, for me has a little bit more upside than what he can be, and he's shown me a lot this year. I thought the first half of last season I was like, oh man, they might have missed this pick altogether. And man, did he have a great second half of the year. And then he committed to go to summer league, which I was shocked by. Like, guys, you know, typically, you know, he was all rookie team. You know, you're thinking he's not going to want to go to Vegas. They said he volunteered to do it. He wanted to go out there and play with those guys. It's told me something about him and who he is and like how bad he probably wants to be better. And so I probably would lean there and look, Reese Shepherd's a really, really nice player. One day maybe he's going to be starting point guard on a team and doing things, but I'm not quite 100% sure yet. Is it like this perfect situation he's in now to do what he does or what is ultimately like his real ceiling on a team that's really good? I'm not exactly sure. Alex Saar is intriguing to me because of the length and the skill set.
- [67:21]
A
I had the same order. I think SAR has the highest ceiling still. There's stuff. And I saw him in person in November, but there's stuff with him where it's like, that's unusual. I don't. There's not a lot of guys that do that. Shepard I would probably have over where. Because I like the ceiling with shepherd, where he is right now at age 20. I'm just trying to imagine him at age 27 when he's got full confidence. I think, I think he's a possible all star. I'm not sure where's an all star, but he's perfect for this. Can you put up double doubles? Can you play with your hands up? Can you protect the rim? All that stuff. All right, you got one more guy. Who do you have?
- [68:00]
B
Let's go with Denny Abdia. This dude, when he got drafted, people didn't know much about him. Lottery pick goes to Washington. Kind of like, watch him early on you're like, you know, he's got like a nice like all around game but didn't do anything great. And to do what he's doing now and to put up these stat lines and look, Portland's a pretty competitive team. Like the Western Conference. They'd have a lot more wins if they were in the east and they were playing Eastern Conference teams all the time. Like, I mean, look at, look at the Western Conference of what you're dealing with. So their win totals aren't as good as they would be if they were in the East. But they're still like, you got to come to play when you're playing against the Blazers and this guy, another roll.
- [68:47]
A
Up your, roll up the sleeves team, right? And he's like the, probably the starting five on that team completely is.
- [68:54]
B
And for people that probably haven't, they're listening to this, you know that love the league but like maybe you're not really watching the Blazers, which I would understand. Like you're not really paying attention to the Blazers. They've played themselves into 10th place, which is like, might not sound like much, but that's, that's, that's, you know, play in territory. Didn't look at their roster before the year and think that was going to happen. This dude is averaging just under 26, seven boards, six and a half assists, 47% from the field, 37 from the 380 from the line. And he's like a triple double threat a lot of nights with like not like the generic kind, not like 12, 11 and 10. Like this is a guy that's going to get those 28 point triple doubles. His all around game has really blown away my expectations for him based on what I saw in Washington. It was just an obvious case of give this guy more freedom, the talent is there, let him go play through some mistakes and you've got something really nice. It's kind of crazy when this happens though Bill, because it's almost like you're going, well, the talent evaluators in Washington were right. Like actually they were right, but they didn't even give it enough time to know that like. And then he's in Portland. So. Because the guy is. The guy's taking it to another level. But so it was there all along.
- [70:11]
A
Well, it seems even worse than that though that it seems worse because it seems like they traded him partly because they wanted a fully tank and he was like a little too good to be part of the mission, right? And Portland smartly identified it and grabbed him. But I think the Wizards fans like Joe House who comes on this pod all the time, huge Wizards fan. Like he always thought Abdi was really good. I don't think he thought he was going to do 26, 5 and 6. I mean he's not only an all star, I think he has to be in the all star team, but he's at least on the fringe all NBA conversation. I can't believe how good he. If you're 26, 7 and 7 for a third of the season, I know the numbers are a little inflated these days, but that's real. Well, that leads me to Michael Porter Jr. Who I just wanted to mention it's only 23 games. He's not a bad team. He's averaging almost 26 a night and he's in the 50, 40, 90 vicinity and he's averaging almost four threes a game. And look, I don't know, we knew there was more there. We knew in Denver he was being used the way he was going to use. We thought he was overpaid. I still probably think he is. Despite the stats. He's had some toe to toe with the best player on the floor for the other team games where he seems to be pretty confident he belongs in that. Like what I talked about with Jay lebron earlier. He killed the Celtics a couple weeks ago. Like killed them like single handedly. It's probably their second worst loss of the year. And he's had a couple of those where he's just like, yeah, I'm Michael Porter Jr. I'm putting up 30. He's an intriguing. I don't know if he's a trade asset, if he's a building block or what is he. But I think he's probably added four wins to their total that they didn't think they were going to have. They wanted to be terrible and they're not terrible, they're not good. But he's fucked it up for them.
- [71:54]
B
He's done way more than I thought he was going to. And me too. I wasn't like a. I wasn't like a, you know, a negative Michael Porter guy at all. I just thought there was a casualness about him that probably hurt him. And with what they did in Denver, the way that they played on certain nights, if it wasn't, you know, flowing toward him, he would get a little bit aloof, a checkout a little bit. I think Michael Malone at times kind of, I think was probably in his own head. If he didn't say it publicly. He was questioning his toughness a little bit some nights. So the irony is like when they trick when they got made the trade, I said, well this is an upgrade. Cam Johnson's an upgrade for them because I trusted his energy more. I trusted his ability to play within a role and like be good at that every night rather than the fluctuations when some nights Michael Porter would get it going early in Denver and he was a totally different player than the nights when he was kind of an afterthought for them offensively. And now you're effect, now you're looking at his defense now. You're looking at his energy because he wasn't getting shots. I thought, Cam Johnson's going to have nights where he doesn't get a shot for a quarter and he's still going to play hard and hard as he can. So I thought it was an upgrade, and I'm still not sure.
- [73:11]
A
And they shaved a lot of money, too. I mean, they shaved 20. 20 million, I think, or something close to that.
- [73:16]
B
So Denver's having a hell of a year and maybe, maybe ultimately he is a better fit for them for some of the reasons I stated. Particularly if Jamal Murray is going to have the year he's having. Maybe you need a guy that's going to be less consistent with his shot volume, but still, like, play hard and have a. Have. He's got a really positive energy and vibe about him. Cam Johnson, no matter what's going on. And Michael Porter Jr. He just kind of has a different vibe about him. Right. So maybe it still is for the best that they made the move, but give Michael Porter Jr. All the credit in a row. So I have a question for you because I've been thinking about this. Is there any part of Michael Porter Jr. Do you think that's kind of having just like this year for now, just a little bit more fun? Even though there's no question, Even though they're 819 and they're not playing for anything and he's not going to contend Denver, who knows? Denver could end up in the conference finals or the finals and you could be part of that. You know, he's already won a ring, but do you think maybe because he's won a ring, he's like, hey, I kind of tasted that. But this is fun. Like, I'm the guy now the ball's ending up, everybody's looking for me. I'm a magnet for the ball. Some part of him is probably really enjoying the hell out of this at 27 years old, you know, just to get numbers, go get numbers.
- [74:32]
A
Well, he was also. He was the, you know, one of the biggest high school recruits of a. Of a stretch there. Right. He was supposed to be number one.
- [74:39]
B
In his class for like two years in a row.
- [74:41]
A
Yeah. So I think there's. There's a sense of like, ah, never happened for that guy. And now he's kind of shown, like, well, never happened to me. But I was also on a team where I never had the ball. Like you could make a case for it. He won the title is the key thing for me. If he hadn't won a title, it'd be like, ah, I don't know. It's fun to be on a winning team, but he won the title. Now he's proving A, that he could, you know, again, small sample size, but he's at least shown it.
- [75:06]
C
Yeah.
- [75:07]
A
B, I think he's a really intriguing trade asset. Like, I wonder if the warriors have had a meeting about him. Be like, hey, could we turn Kaminga and some other stuff and a pick into Porter? What does that do for us?
- [75:18]
B
Well, I really believe in just like conversations that I'm having. I think the guy has completely changed, like his draft stat. I mean, I'm sorry, trade status. I think in terms of attractability to teams attractiveness, like this guy now is like. Because I think people thought, okay, kind of, kind of knew what Michael Porter was. The fact that he can do this offensively, even though it's a team that's not winning a lot of games. I do think now there's probably more teams that would look at him that are sort of those middle of the road playoff teams and go, man, that would be nice to add that kind of scoring punch. The question always gets back to, what, what are you willing to give up for him?
- [76:00]
A
But I was thinking Milwaukee with him because I know Doc likes him. When Doc was coming on my podcast, he. Yeah, he always thought Porter was underrated for Denver. He liked that he rebounded. All right, we. So I apologies to not mentioning Tyrese Maxey. Sorry you asked. How do we decide most. Most improved player? I just wanted to cover this quick because I don't think Abdi is eligible for me, even though he's one of the favorites. Here's why he did this. For the last two months of last season, we already saw this and it was the same reason I didn't vote for Cade last year. It was a different reason. Was just like, well, Cade's was the first pick in the draft. He's supposed to get better every year. Which is, I think, the case for Maxi not being in there. I don't really know how we decide this, and it seems like it's up to the voter and we both have votes, but I feel like, like Porter could potentially be in this most improved player thing. Right? It's like, well, look at. He's really improved. It's like, is he. He just got more shots, more higher usage rate. He's on a team that needs him. If you went from not playing to playing like Gillespie, I'm not sure that counts either. So what is the criteria. What's the number one thing for you?
- [77:14]
B
So for me, guys fall into different categories with this, and it all depends on what you prioritize the most. Like, I hear what you're pointing about Abdia, maybe you say the same thing and then about Jalen Johnson because, you know, he showed you like some of this last year and you're kind of like, okay, here's what it really comes down to, Bill, because for some of these guys, it's not really that they're improved that much in terms of their game. It's really the word should be for some of these guys, most improved opportunity. Because that's what's changed for Michael Porter Jr. That's what's changed for AJ Mitchell, who is a guy that's probably going to get a lot of votes for this award because he was not really on your radar with the Thunder last year and now he's a major component and will be all year. This guy's going to play 20 plus minutes all postseason for this team. But can you.
- [78:05]
A
Can you improve from not playing at all to playing. I'm going to say no.
- [78:10]
B
What do you mean by that? Are you saying you're not. You don't think a guy that was just like hanging on to an NBA career to now being a guy like Gillespie, for instance, why would he be disqualified?
- [78:23]
A
I'm not saying disqualified. I'm just saying when I think about this in my head, it should almost be a separate award that they should call the. Where the fuck did you come from? A word, and it's like, oh, this year it's Colin Gillespie. Where'd you come from? What happened?
- [78:36]
B
That's. Maybe they should. Maybe they should name it that.
- [78:38]
A
That should just be a different award. I look at. So when I think of this award, I look at Jalen Duran, who right now in Fanduel has the fourth best odds plus 700. I look at him like he had the exact same minutes last year. They needed the exact same things from him last year. But I'm watching him this year and he's a different guy. Right? He's just went up a level. He is now, whoever, whatever center he's going against, I feel like he's toe to toe. They can run offense with him at the end of games with him and Cade, and it's kind of devastating. His. His personality has evolved where he's like this real leader and kind of, kind of intimidating presence. And I just. I don't think he was that way last year in the same way. So to Me, that's the kind of guy I'm looking at for a candidate. But you could also say, like, Jalen Johnson is now one of the 15 best players in the league. He should win.
- [79:33]
B
Yeah, no, agreed. So that's for me, is first thing I'm going to ask myself is, have they gone to a completely different shelf right in the hierarchy in the league? And if they don't, so that's the first thing they have to. And some people might, for some of these guys, say, well, yeah, but if you really then go deep dive into what they were doing last year, you're going to realize, no, they really, they really aren't. Like, they've already shown you this. Now they're doing it consistently more often maybe. And so that would maybe be what people are looking for. I wrote down 10 guys without really, really, really diving in, like just off the top of my head going down the league. And I'm going to blow foam real quick because we've covered a lot of them today, but there's a few others we haven't yet. So I have Jalen Johnson written down as a guy that's probably going to get consideration for this. AJ Mitchell, Reed shepherd should. Because Reed shepherd got an opportunity last year as the third pick in the draft. Like you're going to give that guy an opportunity. He didn't look quite ready for it. I think that.
- [80:29]
A
But that goes into like when, if you're a second year guy, you should be better than you were as a first year. That's where I get confused with this award. It's like, I would expect you to be better this year. You've been in the league for a year too.
- [80:40]
B
That's a very good point. And that's why a lot of people will exclude guys from this. I look at him and go, he's so much better than he was though, because last year he didn't look sure of himself. And the opportunity was there for him to grab the backup point guard minutes for that team. They wanted him to get it. He wasn't ready. And you know, I will say, when I met with Ime Udoka, like halfway through the season, I called a Rockets game. At that point, Reed shepherd was like pretty much out of the rotation. And he had so many glowingly positive things to say about him. I knew he was going to be okay. Like, you can tell when a coach, you ask about a young player and it's like you could just tell by their response. Even if they don't say it, you can just kind of Tell like that they don't believe this guy's going to turn. He did not give me that indication. So I, that made me think this guy's going to be fine. Like there's something they're seeing that is not translated to the games yet. Now he's done it six times last year, double figures all season. He's done it 18 times. So, so there you go. But you're, you're make a good point.
- [81:45]
A
All right, so who else did you drive in the West?
- [81:48]
B
Colin Gillespie I think has to be in there. Avdi, I mentioned Jalen Duran. I have on this list you mentioned, we talked about Alex Saar. I think he could be a guy. These next few I think are really interesting ones. Nikhil Alexander Walker, look at what he has done with an increased opportunity to score the ball in Atlanta that he didn't get in Minnesota. Minnesota was guard the ball, one of the best on ball defenders pressure up the floor. Loved you for that on those nights. You made shots great, but we don't really need you to do that. It's not a big deal. You're not judged by that. Now he goes to Atlanta and all of a sudden it's like a different type of offense. Trey Young's not out there and this dude's getting 20 regularly. Like him and Jalen Johnson are getting 50 points combined. Like a lot of nights I put him down. Ryan Rollins from Milwaukee was a guy that I thought probably deserves some of this because he looks really natural as like a lead guard for them with, with increased opportunity. And then Keonte George was the last one I wrote down in Utah. Now here's the thing about him. His efficiency isn't much different. He's just taking higher volume. But the guy had like four 30 point games in a five game stretch.
- [83:00]
A
You catch him on the right night, it looks like he's going to be a five time all star man.
- [83:04]
B
A dude's got talent, he oozes talent. I think he drives them crazy a little bit with some of his decision making. But the guy's got massive talent and they're, they're better than they were. At least they're trying to win games now a little bit more often. So I've noticed him a little bit more than I did a year ago. So that was like my 10 list.
- [83:23]
A
Can I add one more?
- [83:24]
B
Sure.
- [83:24]
A
Kevin Love hasn't done anything for the last four years. 16 rebounds the other night. Let's throw him back on.
- [83:29]
B
There you go.
- [83:29]
A
Any other late 30s guy won the award. This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. You'll find everything you need for the holidays at Whole Foods Market. If you're entertaining, explore limited time seasonal desserts like the Holiday Rum Cake and much more. And for the main event, serve show stopping centerpiece mains like Bone in Spiral Cut Ham and their Bone in Rib Roast, succulent and special. They've even got great gifts like seasonal candles from 365 brand at everyday low prices. In a hurry, skip the crowds and order online for pickup and delivery and select zip codes. Shop for everything you need at a Whole Foods Market, your holiday headquarters. This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into. That's why it's no surprise that more than 85% of the Fortune 500 use the ServiceNow AI platform. While other platforms duct tape tools together, ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data workflows and AI connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters Most. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people@servicenow.com this Christmas Day FanDuel is letting you once again pass the leg to your families and friends with a fun new way to bet. So if you open Pass the leg in the FanDuel sportsbook app, you can begin by creating a unique link for all the NFL games on Christmas Day. What an early Christmas present this is. Add your legs, invite and share with your friends. Once your friends are finished adding their legs, add the group parlay to your bets slip and you're ready to go. Use your past leg PBT to boost your winnings and just get after it. So here's what I would do for the Christmas games. Cowboys Commanders Chris Rodriguez plus 120 anytime touchdown score. It's been coming on late. I just think this game's going to have a lot of points. I like that one. Lions at Vikings Jameer Gibbs anytime -195 for a touchdown and he didn't have a good week last week. I could just see him unleashing holy hell this week. And all the teams that got eliminated last week in fantasy because he was on their team get mad all over again. Yeah. And then last but not least, Broncos at Chiefs. Let's go nuts with this Broncos defense against whoever the heck is Q being for the Chiefs Broncos defense to score a touchdown plus 550 at any point in the game. I love it. Throw that in with some easy bets and you're ready to Go head to fanduel. Start passing the leg right now. I had two more quick things for you. I told you I had a Celtics thing I wanted to throw at you. I say this very hesitantly and carefully. They remind me a lot of the Pacers last year. If you actually look at the blueprint and what they're doing. Because I've been. I watch every Celtics game really trying to figure out. First of all, I've loved this season. It's just amazing to watch a team lose their best guy. You know that like Jacoby and Chris Vernon were talking a couple weeks ago on the mismatch pot about the Scottie Pippen season without mj, when the infrastructure stayed the same and Scotty rose up, much like Jalen's doing this year, and they just somehow won 55 games without Jordan. It was incredible. So here's the Pacers comparison. They're built around guards, right? The guards are creating most of the offense, most of the opportunities, the shooting. They control the pace. They always have two out there. Simons can come in and he can still create a shot. So they're always in a position with their guards where they can create something, which is where the Pacers were last year. They have an awesome forward. The Pacers had Siakam last year. I think Jalen's an even better offensive option than Siakam was. But they have one forward that they know can get a shot and can kind of, if you space out for them, can probably get a good 12 to 15 footer. They have some rim protection in Keda, which the Pacers had Turner. And then they just have all these wings that just try and play defense and know how to switch. And they come in waves and the whole team tries really hard. The bench can come in and they really remind me of that Pacers team. And I know that the one thing that's different is Keda can't shoot threes like Turner did. They don't have like an incredible playmaker like Halliburton. But Brown's better than Siakam. But I think it's the same blueprint. They're really well coached, good infrastructure. And the 1811 makes sense to me watching it. So that's my case.
- [88:00]
B
I like that a lot. I think there's. I kind of get the same vibe watching them offensively that I did get from the Pacers a year ago. It's pretty incredible what they've been able to do. You think about it, the last two teams that represent the east in the Finals both lost their best Player, look at the difference in the results. And you know, Indiana had some other injuries, but they still had Siakam. Just about every night Matheran has been out there, Nemhardt's been out there, like these, you know, TJ McConnell and these guys in there and Miles Turner's not there, obviously. But look at, look at their season and look at what the Celtics have been able to do. So I have a question for you as a follow up, as a guy that's, you know, unapologetic, love your team. Do you have even an improved respect factor for Joe Missoula than you had prior to this year?
- [88:49]
A
He won me over last year, but what I love about this year's team is it's like, it's like coming out of his brain and his pores the way they like you, basically. If you don't try, you're not playing. He sat Garza for a couple of weeks and Garza had a. Had a weird little stretch where he wasn't good. But Garza's creep back in and he creeped back in because he's playing like his life depends on the game. And if the Celtics lose, he's going to be murdered. After the game. He had a play. He got an offensive rebound. He dove over two guys and tipped it back like he was like a strong safety trying to break up like a Hail Mary or something. So you have him and then you have Hugo, which is like, I honestly, I think Mozilla created him in a laboratory. Like, I think he went to Spain and just like created like his version of Frankenstein. Hugo is a maniac and he's. I think he's plus 78 the last three games. And you feel it when you watch it. He's flying around like he just had 17 coffees. Other teams hate playing against him. They hate him. He's.
- [89:53]
B
Is he like taking on this like sort of cult status now with the Boston crowd?
- [89:57]
A
It's beyond. Yeah, Jordan Walsh had it for a little bit and then Hugo just like grabbed it. But the combo them together, they always have one guy in the game who's a wing who can guard anyone on the other team and who tries, you know, at an A plus level. And it's just, it's been really fun to watch. So now you start thinking about this Tatum comeback. Let's say he plays 25 minutes a game. Those minutes are coming from like Shireman and some Houser that you're just going to upgrade to Jason Tatum, that even if he's on a little bit of cruise Control still, the three point shooting, the rebounding, the defense. Like they're going to be better with Tatum. And I think these, this last week was the first time I think Celtic fans started to kind of look at each other and go, we're in the three seed.
- [90:40]
B
No, they're in the mix.
- [90:42]
A
Coming back in March. What's going on here?
- [90:44]
B
They're in the mix. And this was what the storyline going into the year we all knew was like the path was created, right? Like it's the potentials there for a number of teams. Boston didn't seem like they were one of them, but I think they're looking at the top and going to Pistons and the Knicks. Like yeah, we're okay playing those teams.
- [91:02]
A
Like we're going to be okay if.
- [91:04]
B
We get a seven game series with them. They've been, they've been one of the really surprising stories, especially the way the year started for them, for them to have flipped it around the way they have, man, just so impressive. And by the way, Christmas Day games are coming up. We talked about the very beginning. I got the Houston Lakers game in that 8 o' clock game. There's five games that day and I wish you could flex them. I keep my matchup that I'm calling that. I'm part of that crew calling that game. I keep that one. I want that game as the eighth.
- [91:31]
A
Flex Cleveland out, put the Celtics in.
- [91:33]
B
But let me ask you a question. No, I almost don't because here's the thing that's crazy. Only two of the 10 teams are from the Eastern Conference. There's only two Eastern Conference teams represented on Christmas Day and that is Cleveland and the Knicks. But first of all, I'd rather watch Detroit Knicks at noon. Yeah, that's the one I wanted first. Especially since they haven't, they haven't played yet this year and they had that incredible series last year. That's the game at the Garden at noon on Christmas. Two teams that, that practically got a fight every game in the playoffs this year. You give me that to start my Christmas Day game here, I got a weird one for you.
- [92:11]
A
So we're, so we're fighting at the tables later, but Detroit and the Knicks start us off and then we can.
- [92:15]
B
Fight with our family after. You know, at that, at noon you're still kind of like maybe these kids are still opening presents and people are talking a lot and, and so you got one eye on the game and all of a sudden you're looking up and they're eight minutes in and somebody, somebody's being thrown into the crowd and you're like, wait a second. And it changes everything. Like day games, Right?
- [92:33]
A
Yeah.
- [92:33]
B
Here's another thing, though. Did you know this? Like, so San Antonio is playing Oklahoma City on Christmas night. They just played in the Emirates Cup. San Antonio beat them. Do you know that they're also playing on the December 23rd. They're playing back to back.
- [92:48]
A
Oh, it's a baseball series. Wow.
- [92:50]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Opposite. Opposite buildings. It's a home and home.
- [92:53]
A
Yeah.
- [92:54]
B
But it does not, not take little of the edge off the Christmas Day game. Like, they're playing on. They're playing on Tuesday.
- [93:01]
A
Counter. I could watch Those teams play 20 times.
- [93:04]
B
Oh, I hear you. I hear you. But for me, I wanted that to be.
- [93:09]
A
To be a little, like, have a little more weight.
- [93:11]
B
Yeah. Especially since San Antonio just beat them and you're like, you know, Oklahoma City is going to want to get this back.
- [93:17]
A
Like. Yeah, but I don't think. I don't think they knew San Antonio was going to be San Antonio when they scheduled that game.
- [93:23]
B
Right.
- [93:23]
A
What was that over, like, 44. Nobody knew they were going to be a contender that. Nobody knew Harper was going to look like this and Castle was going to go up a level.
- [93:31]
B
So there's only. There's only. There's only two other teams that I would put in this category of gosh, Boston. Philly would be fun, man. Because of. They're fun to watch. Maxi and Brown are like a show that would be fun. You know, it's a decent rivalry, those two teams. So you got Dallas and Golden State Christmas Day, like, yeah, it's a tough one. I mean, I want to see Cooper flag and they're playing a little bit better. Golden State's 500 team. Could you ever not want Steph Curry on Christmas Day? You have to have Steph Curry. So that's. So you get Dallas because you don't want an east coast team versus west coast team. So that took Philly and Boston out of the mix. Detroit, to me, is the team that kind of got slighted in this. Their number one seed in the east, and they're sitting home watching Christmas Day.
- [94:17]
A
Well, it's tough because Cleveland won 64 last year. You cannot have them.
- [94:21]
B
I know.
- [94:21]
A
Yeah, you're right. I, I watched the Dallas game last night. I really enjoy watching Dallas.
- [94:28]
B
Yeah.
- [94:29]
A
Now that Davis is back and looking like Davis again, I think they're fun. And then New Orleans has been.
- [94:33]
B
Yeah.
- [94:34]
A
Charlotte was the league pass MVP of the first quarter. And now New Orleans has grabbed the Reins and it's just the most fascinating league pass team possible, by the way.
- [94:43]
B
How about. How about Con Kadipel? Fastest guy to 100 made threes in a season ever.
- [94:47]
A
Also, I think he's 27. I think they need to investigate this.
- [94:51]
B
I agree.
- [94:52]
A
Has anyone lied about their age before in the NBA?
- [94:55]
B
He looks like the game could end. He could throw in a suit and go do someone's taxes.
- [94:58]
A
Yeah.
- [94:58]
B
Right after the game. I totally agree with that. Just his body type, like, everything about.
- [95:03]
A
The way he moves. He knows how to switch already. He's always in the right spot.
- [95:06]
B
100 made threes in however many games they throw.
- [95:10]
A
Yeah, like 20. 24 games.
- [95:11]
B
24 games and it took Steph Curry 58 games to get 100 threes.
- [95:15]
C
Wow.
- [95:16]
A
Well, I'm going to end with Steph Curry and then you could go spend time with your family. Are we at the point where Curry to Charlotte. We should just do it? Like, just is. Can we. Can we just. Can the league intervene? Can this just be. I don't want to upset Warrior fans. I don't want to trade Steph Curry before Christmas. But, you know, he grew up there. There's his dad's there. There's shots of him on the court as a kid. He always joked about ending his career there. I don't think this warriors team has any chance. We just saw Draymond blow up last night. Like, can we just do the Lamelo and a bunch of picks and send Curry back to. To Charlotte and let's just go.
- [95:54]
B
The only people. The only people that might object to that are the. Their parents because Seth just got there to go.
- [96:01]
A
Seth can be in the trade. We'll put him in.
- [96:03]
B
Your family will go Seth. If that's.
- [96:04]
A
That's the both Curry's. Yeah.
- [96:06]
B
Think about what you're saying now. You're talking about Splash Brothers with 2.0 with Curry and Knipple. Like, that's the new version of that Curry knipple.
- [96:14]
A
Brandon Miller Bridges is there. We'll try to get them a. Lamelo.
- [96:18]
B
Is one of the funnest guys in the league to watch.
- [96:21]
A
Yeah, well, no, I'm saying Lamelo's in the trade.
- [96:23]
B
The warriors trade Lamelo. I got for Curry. I got you.
- [96:26]
A
I got you Lamelo and picks and other stuff for Curry. It'll never happen. But I was just like, if there was ever a time to get the Charlotte bandwagon, go for the Curry.
- [96:34]
B
I think the Draymond Green's reaction to Lamelo ball would be a little different. Than his reaction to Steph Curry.
- [96:41]
A
Well, Draymond's probably out too, but there is a blow it up scenario with Golden State. If they were like, hey, maybe we shouldn't pay $400 million a year for this team and. But I don't think he's ever leaving. I just wanted it.
- [96:53]
B
Honestly, I don't want him to. I want him either. I want it to be one of those ones where, you know, you don't have Journey going into the Rock and Roll hall of Fame and Steve Perry's not there. Like, I don't want that. I want them to finish.
- [97:07]
A
You're still upset about that?
- [97:08]
B
I am. I just, I hate when it ends that way, man. You accomplish all this greatness together and then at the end, no one's talking to each other. Like, the 90s Bulls teams, like, it's like, what? Look at what you guys did together and now y' all hate each other.
- [97:21]
A
It's like, I think the 90s bulls is more upsetting than Journey and I'm upset by journey. But the 90s bulls, like, Pippen doesn't talk to anybody anymore. It sounds. These guys won six titles. They have a 10 part documentary about the. They had the most famous athlete we've had.
- [97:36]
B
At least Journey did go find Arnel Pineda, which is probably the greatest replication of Steve Perry's voice you could possibly imagine. Continually found the Guy on Like YouTube in the Philippines or something, and he ends up being now the lead for Journey for however long. But we digress. We could talk 80s.
- [97:53]
A
I love that you went full name.
- [97:55]
B
Anytime you want to do a show.
- [97:56]
A
On 80s rock music, it sounds like you're ready. Last thoughts on the Commanders before we go on holidays.
- [98:03]
B
I finally got over my month long anger, like real, real legitimate anger at what I perceived as a team that quit playing football. I was just so, so disgusted. All the injuries piled up, but then they just stopped tackling altogether. And I was just like, what? How could they do this to the fan base? You know, you get your season ticket renewal, they Jack you up 20%, you know, and you're based on this year and you're just like, what? I was so mad. I finally went back. I missed three straight home games that I normally would have gone to to see the Eagles Commanders. Last Sunday I went to the game, so I was back in the stadium. It felt good.
- [98:40]
A
I just want this season over Chris Rodriguez jersey. What was going on?
- [98:44]
B
I know what I know. I was so mad that I did not wear a jersey. And in fact I did have a sweatshirt? No, but I covered it with a coat because it was really cold. It was like 38 degrees, so I covered it with a coat. I was not fanned out. I was not celebrating first downs like I normally do. I wasn't doing any of that stuff. I just sat there and I took an Eagles fan with me, a buddy of mine, to the game, which I would never consider wanting to do something like that, but I didn't care. I want the season over. I don't want any more wins. I don't know why they beat the Giants a couple weeks ago. I don't understand what they're doing. Just get the best pick you can at this point.
- [99:18]
A
Yeah, I think that. I think that's probably.
- [99:20]
B
I just hope it's one year where it was this fluky thing with everyone being hurt, and I hope we're back next year again in the mix.
- [99:27]
A
He'll be fine. It's an old team that ended up having a lot of injuries, which was predictable. But the Daniels thing is probably more concerning because you have this RJ RG3 shadow from that whole era, and it's.
- [99:40]
B
Hard not to think about four injuries in a year and a half to miss time. Four, like that's. It's like, man. So I'm nervous about that for sure. I'm just hoping that, okay, we win four games, get a high pick and let's move on, get everybody healthy in the off season, kind of reinvent certain positions and I just hope they're back relevant again. They don't take the playoffs every year. But you can't. You can't give me NFC Championship game to this. You can't do that. That's not right for the fan base, the loyal, the loyalists like myself.
- [100:10]
A
We'll see you on Christmas. I hope you get a great game. I look forward to watching it. Happy holidays. Thanks as always for coming up.
- [100:17]
B
Absolutely appreciate it, Bill. Happy holidays.
- [100:19]
A
This episode is brought to you by Chime. A great team avoids dumb penalties. So get Chime on your side to help avoid dumb fees. With Chime, you can bank fee free. Unlock your paycheck early and with qualifying direct deposits, you can get 1.5% cash back on eligible everyday purchases while building your credit. Start banking smarter today. Sign up for Chime in minutes. Terms and conditions apply. See chime.com for details. Chime is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services and the secured Chime Visa credit card provided by the Bancorp Bank NA or Stride Bank NA members. FDIC optional service and product may have fees or charges details@chime.com feesinfo with a qualifying direct deposit. Earn 1.5% cash back on eligible secured Chime Visa credit card purchases on time. Payment history may have a positive impact on your credit score. Results may vary. Learn about credit building and more@chime.com this episode is brought to you by Greenland 2 Migration. If you loved this disaster hit film in 2020, well, the end of the world was only the beginning. Gerard Butler and Marina Baccarin are back for the sequel. Five years after a comet strike devastated most of the Earth, the Garrity family is leaving the safety of their bunker in Greenland in search of a new home. There's a chance of a safe zone, a place with breathable air and drinkable water. It's in southern France, but the question is, how will they get there? Will they risk their lives to do so? Disaster movies, we really started to figure them out in the 70s. We had airport, all those versions of that. We had Towering Inferno, just kept going and going. Then we had the parodies of the disaster movies. And then the disaster movies really came back in the 90s with a whole bunch of them, like Armageddon, Independence Day. There was work. We like watching things blow up. We like watching cities crumble, even though we know they're not actually crumbling, but they're crumbling. We like crazy storms. We like suspension tension. And we like to believe in our main hero, a disaster film. And my God, Gerard freaking Butler. What else do you need? Greenland 2 Migration in theaters January 9th. Rated PG 13. All right, Joe House is here shortly before one of his favorite days of the year, Christmas, which is the second most you eat other than Thanksgiving.
- [102:38]
C
Well, you know, the. The nice thing about where Christmas falls on the calendar this year is that today is my favorite day. It's Christmas, Adam. Today. Tomorrow's Christmas Eve. And then we have Christmas. I just got back from a lunch of giant ice, raw bar, platter of Chesapeake Bay oysters, spiced shrimp with some delicious old bay, and maybe a couple frozes. Maybe a couple.
- [103:07]
A
Because, you know, you seem like you're not sick anymore and you have your energy back.
- [103:12]
C
Tis the season, brother. Tis the season.
- [103:14]
A
So you've decided you have enough white blood cells in your body again to just start drinking during the day?
- [103:20]
C
Day drinking. That's what Christmas is for.
- [103:22]
A
Well, Christmas is also for comebacks. Just everyone's getting annihilated. Ringer 107. This is now the worst regular season.
- [103:30]
C
I think Shield was cooking.
- [103:33]
A
What did Shield do? Oh, my God. I Almost. I need to win 10 straight just to finish with 500. I'm already focused on the playoffs. I'm already thinking ahead. Playoffs are all that matters. Unlike the Chiefs.
- [103:47]
C
Why didn't we get to the Titans last week? That was my. One of my favorite bets of the week.
- [103:52]
A
Schrager was guesting for you and he talked me out of the Titans.
- [103:55]
C
Come on. That was. I gave out the Titans. I gave out the Saints. Plus shuck over 275. That was.
- [104:05]
A
You did that. You did that on Sunday. We're making the Thursday.
- [104:09]
C
Nobody asked me. I would have. I love the Saints.
- [104:11]
A
Last week I should have asked you.
- [104:12]
C
It's okay. You're allowed.
- [104:15]
A
I was so disgruntled with picks and everything. I didn't. I didn't. I've passed the point of caring. But now I care because we have to get ready for playoffs again.
- [104:23]
C
Well, this is miserable because week 17 and week 18 have nothing but like incredible variants all over them.
- [104:30]
A
I had an awesome gambling week in real life.
- [104:33]
B
Yeah.
- [104:33]
A
Last week.
- [104:34]
C
Me too. Great one.
- [104:35]
A
And then I gave some of it back last night with a Colts under tease. The under lost with like five minutes into the game. I don't know what happened to the Colts defense. And then on the flip side, I don't know what to make of the Niners offense because they now look like the 99 Rams.
- [104:51]
C
Respectfully, again, Ringer Gambling Show. First part of Monday I gave out the San Francisco money line parlayed with the Colts over 20 and a half. That only paid out plus 280. That was a plus 280 parlay that I gave out to all of America first part of Monday because thought there was a great chance the Colts would be able to move the ball against that San Francisco.
- [105:17]
A
I did too. That's why I took that plus five and a half. I didn't realize they'd give up 48.
- [105:22]
C
We also talked about the fact the Seattle had six scoring drives against this defense. Yeah. The difference is they were all field goals.
- [105:34]
A
Yeah.
- [105:35]
C
Half of those were touchdowns. That game wouldn't have been close.
- [105:38]
A
And that's a good point.
- [105:39]
C
San Francisco has been absolutely cooking since Purdy came back.
- [105:43]
A
Four.
- [105:43]
C
No, straight up.
- [105:44]
B
Four.
- [105:45]
C
No. Against the spread going into last night. Every win by double digits. Well, let's just make it five in a row. Five and oh, against the spread. Five and oh.
- [105:53]
A
Straight up.
- [105:53]
C
Five straight games by double digits.
- [105:55]
A
And we might be taking them again this week.
- [105:57]
C
Might be.
- [105:58]
A
I like for Jose House, maybe this is where we needed to go for the Picks. This could be the last thing that saves it. Needed to come back drunk House got sick. I'm right here. Couldn't be drunk house. Now you're back.
- [106:08]
C
Yeah. Old fashioned. Froze. It's the season.
- [106:11]
A
We have three Christmas games that include me with.
- [106:14]
C
With rye. Go ahead.
- [106:15]
A
Negroni was right. We have Washington, your favorite team, plus seven against Dallas, who now has somehow the worst DBOA defense in the league. They passed the Bengals this week. They passed the Bengals were in historical conversations for having the worst DBO defense of all time. And by week 17 they had been passed by the Cowboys. And I thought your team looked pretty good last week for a bad team.
- [106:39]
C
They were going to. They were. That was going to be really fun coming down the stretch until Mariota got hurt. As soon as he went out, I was like, oh, this is a double digit loss.
- [106:46]
A
If Mario didn't get hurt.
- [106:49]
C
They can move the ball against that, that Eagles defense. And they were moving the ball against the Eagles defense.
- [106:53]
A
So who is the quarterback this week for the Washington team?
- [106:56]
C
I believe it is going to be Jeff Driscoll. Spelled with a K. Drs.
- [107:04]
A
K. Say no more. Cross it off.
- [107:08]
C
I already have bets. You know, the line was six and a half. Dallas six and a half. I jumped all over. I got every bit of that I could.
- [107:16]
A
That's a complete. Stay away from.
- [107:18]
C
No, I'm just. I understand, but they're going to. They're going to beat Washington's ass and.
- [107:23]
A
Yet Dallas isn't good. So who knows? Next one. Vikings. Lions. Vikings plus seven in that game. And Brosmer's probably playing because J.J. mcCarthy got hurt. Brosmer wasn't bad last week. Brosmer. Brosmer.
- [107:38]
C
Brosmer. I think it's bro.
- [107:40]
A
It's Brosmer with the bro wasn't bad last week.
- [107:42]
C
The bro. That's what we're calling him.
- [107:44]
A
You know, defense. That stinks.
- [107:48]
C
They stink. Holy cow. They picked my pocket last week.
- [107:53]
A
I think this line's a little high.
- [107:55]
C
I agree with you.
- [107:56]
A
I want to. I don't want to stay away from the first two Christmas games. This is Netflix, right? This is our friends at Netflix.
- [108:05]
C
They are our friends. We would never steer them wrong. Let's get involved here.
- [108:09]
A
They're going to have to rig one of these games to make them exciting. So why not this one? Vikings +7. I watched that whole Vikings Giants game last week because I had the Vikings in a five team Moneyline parlay that, that Baker Mayfield ended up sodomizing. But the Vikings plus seven with the ability to run the ball with the Ability to blitz a Detroit team that has no offensive line.
- [108:34]
C
Yes.
- [108:36]
A
Feels like a closer game than seven.
- [108:38]
C
I mean, a division game. Vikings at home. The Vikings, very quietly. Their defense has been very steady over, like the last six weeks or so. It should have been my wise wager on Sunday. I like them against the Giants. I think that they can win.
- [108:57]
A
That would have. That barely won, though.
- [108:59]
C
It barely won. I know.
- [109:00]
A
Barely won, but it was.
- [109:01]
C
It was. The defense won the game for him. And ultimately that, that.
- [109:05]
A
This.
- [109:05]
C
This. This number's too fat. What world are we living in where the Lions deserve a full touchdown?
- [109:12]
A
That. That. That.
- [109:13]
C
That team. That's a clown show over there.
- [109:15]
A
Well, the other thing is they can't block.
- [109:17]
C
Cannot.
- [109:18]
A
And it just seems like a nice matchup for the Vikings. D. This feels a little square to me, but I don't. I think it's. It's just because of Brosma. Right? That's.
- [109:27]
C
Jonathan Greener's not playing. He's out for the rest of the season. He is their top. The Vikings top pass rusher. So that would be part of, like, why you would be.
- [109:36]
A
Everybody's missing two guys at this point. Yeah. I also really like the Broncos in the third game, which is going to be on Amazon. They're minus 12 and a half against the Chiefs. As we do this, the Chiefs have Chris Oladukon. What's his name?
- [109:53]
C
Olawa Candy.
- [109:55]
A
Ola Michael Candy is the quarterback for the Chiefs.
- [109:58]
C
Ola Duke and Ola Candy.
- [110:00]
A
So the Chiefs showed us how they plan on handling the rest of the season by not winning or competing.
- [110:06]
C
But let me ask you this. On that very point, is this the farewell game for Kelsey? Where's he going to make five babies with Taylor Swift? He might already have two of them right now.
- [110:22]
A
They might not be a week 18. Kelsey, you're saying. So he just plays well. This is Swan. He says he's retiring after the game.
- [110:31]
C
Isn't this their last home game? Yeah.
- [110:33]
A
He'll play in week 18. And what I'm saying for his home.
- [110:37]
C
Crowd, this could be the farewell game for both. Kelsey, what's the announcement? Are they going to do a deal with Arrowhead Stadium? Are they going to keep one of the venerable venerated stadiums in all of professional football? Or are they going to move to fucking Kansas?
- [110:53]
A
I thought they were. First of all, I researched this. It doesn't seem like a big deal that they're moving. It's Missouri and Kansas. They share Kansas City, The stadium in the league. They had to get rid of it.
- [111:06]
B
Like.
- [111:07]
C
Like you know. Oh, they're moving from. It'll be a Green Bay. Oh, we're moving from Lambeau 20 minutes away to, you know.
- [111:13]
A
All right, bite your tongue. Arrowhead is not Lambo, brother. When we were growing up where we were like, hey, someday we got to go to a game at Arrowhead. Come on. It's fine.
- [111:23]
C
It's achieved quite a bit. I mean, a lot of great. A lot of things have happened there over the last.
- [111:28]
A
Everything. Everything ends. We lost. We lost Sullivan Stadium once upon a time. The New England Patriots. Yeah, the Patriots fans. And the best game ever played in Sullivan Stadium was the last game ever. The snow game.
- [111:43]
C
Well, this is what I'm getting at.
- [111:45]
A
Yeah.
- [111:45]
C
What if.
- [111:46]
A
You think there's going to be a motion what if?
- [111:48]
C
What? It's a what if.
- [111:51]
A
What are you talking about?
- [111:52]
C
12 and a half. It was my favorite bet last week was the Titans on the money line. Titans at home against that completely decimated Chief.
- [111:59]
A
I had it. What if I parlayed Denver at six and a half and took the under to 43 and a half and bet that these teams could not get to 44 points if they had seven quarters?
- [112:11]
C
That part is fine. You would just be worried about Denver doing. Getting it. Because Denver was embarrassed. Yeah, they were embarrassed. By the way that the Jaguars pants.
- [112:20]
A
Last week sounds like this is a stay away. I mean, we could also just take the Broncos minus 12 and a half and think it's a sad game.
- [112:27]
C
Yeah, the. The chief's last game is at Vegas. This is their last.
- [112:32]
A
It's playing in that one, you know.
- [112:34]
C
Well, it's not. It's not that he's playing. This is a Christmas game in prime time on prime video. Kelsey and Arrowhead, possibly the farewell for both of them. It just, you know, I don't want to get rid of.
- [112:49]
A
Just NFL calls it in.
- [112:51]
C
They have injuries on defense and that's really the reason why you would be like, go ahead and just. Just lay the points. But I don't know, man.
- [112:59]
A
The NFL tried to call in the Ravens Pats game and Drake May had other ideas. They boned us at nine calls.
- [113:05]
C
And Harbaugh, holy cow, how can that guy come back? How can that guy possibly come back next year? It's like, what's the scenario?
- [113:13]
A
Derek Henry.
- [113:13]
C
Do we have Derek Henry on our team? Is he even on our team?
- [113:16]
A
He had the series off.
- [113:18]
C
How'd they get resignation letter already?
- [113:21]
A
Ravens, Packers. Ravens plus two and a half. Ironically, the Ravens. Green Bay is in if. Green Bay's in if Detroit Loses. We just had to look up before we came on who the packers third string quarterback was. And his name is Clayton Tune.
- [113:36]
C
Tune.
- [113:37]
A
Mr.
- [113:37]
C
Tunes parents are very proud of him.
- [113:40]
A
The Ravens, I gotta be honest. Slightly hampered Lamar versus Huntley. I'm not sure there's a major difference. It's not like going from Mahomes to. Who's the third string guy in the Chiefs again?
- [113:53]
C
Tune.
- [113:54]
A
Chris. Chris Oduke. Chris Olu. Michael Ola. Candy. Yeah, I was. There's a parlay possibility here. Ravens plus four and a half with the under 54 and a half. It's a night game at Lambeau. What are the odds this game has 55 points?
- [114:10]
C
Not betting any more money on the Ravens. The Ravens can go fuck themselves the way they ended that game. Remember, we've only had two shenanigan games out of the hot trash Ravens this season. The very first game of the season against Buffalo when they were up by 15 points with seven minutes left. And then the hot trash. Let's find a way. How can we lose this football game? Let's invent it over the last 10 minutes. When we're up 10 points against the Patriots with our goddamn season on the line. All we have to do is win this football game. We're up 10 with 10 minutes left and then we can rest. Week 17, everybody get healthy and go win the division. Week 18, can we go do that? Nope. No chance. We're clowns.
- [114:55]
A
We're left out. We're jokers at the part. They were going against 2010. Aaron Rodgers combined with John O Way and Drake May left out that part.
- [115:04]
C
Say whatever you want. A beat up Patriots offensive line.
- [115:09]
A
Yeah, you don't matter. Jake May got pressured 47% of the time.
- [115:13]
C
Patriots missing the middle of their defense. Is that exploitable? Nope, not. Not. Not by the Ravens. Not Keaton Mitchell. Make sure we have a rotation. Got to get Keaton Mitchell all of his touches in the fourth quarter.
- [115:25]
A
Derek Henry's old. They're trying to rest him.
- [115:27]
C
They did. He's going to get a lot of rest this off season when they're not in the playoffs.
- [115:31]
A
I'm marking down Ravens plus four and a half with under 45 and a half.
- [115:34]
C
As you go nuts, I want no part of it.
- [115:37]
A
Jags, Jags and Texans. Colts. Here's the scenario. Colts are alive. They have to win twice. They have to hope Houston loses twice. Jaguars win the AFC south with a win and a Texans loss. Colts are out if Houston wins and Colts. Texans playing week 18.
- [115:53]
C
Right. They're hoping that Houston loses twice. They could beat Houston. That's how they have to do it. They have to beat Houston in week 18.
- [116:02]
A
Well, they're going to know on Sunday because on Saturday, the Chargers host the Texans. And if the Chargers win that game, nothing. The Colts do matter, but I don't even know. Does Phil Rivers say, like, okay, guys, I'll see you later. I got the Chargers in the playoffs. I'm good. That was my goal. But Jags are minus five and a half against the Colts. You can do a little parlay action with that one. You could go jags minus one and a half. And the over 41 and a half works in the contest rules. But we'll do Chargers Texans first. I watched every play of that Texans game Sunday because I had my fantasy season relying on CJ Stroud and Nico Collins. And they had so much trouble moving the ball against Vegas. And a good pass rush. They can't run the ball because Woody Marks is hurt and they just have no other threats. Stroud was legitimately bad. We, Sal and I talked about it on Sunday, and now they're playing this Chargers team that all they do is play really good defense. They can run the ball now to running backs. Herbert has been great for a month, and they win every week. So A, why am I taking the Texans in that game when they're playing a better version of the Raiders, so they barely won last week. B, Chargers can just put shit away with this, right? And then C, if Houston loses, that keeps Jags, Colts alive, which I think the NFL likes when that happens. Just throwing that out there, too.
- [117:31]
C
Fair point. Here's my concern. Yeah, I don't think Houston prepared for that Vegas game as though it was a potential playoff game for them. I think that they did a game plan that was the old Just enough. The old Milton Berle.
- [117:50]
A
I thought that I was watching. I was getting mad. They're just trying not to do anything, basically.
- [117:56]
C
So first of all, we want confirmation about Woody Marks. How's he looking for that game on Saturday? But more importantly, the thing that concerns me is Houston has a defense that is equal to or superior to the Eagles. And the way that the Eagles played the Chargers in la, I expect to see something that is very close. Very close. Seven sacks, 70% pressure. And the Chargers won that game because they let Jalen Hurts just go ahead and beat himself and take the Eagles, you know, completely out of that game. That defense for Houston can take away every single thing that the Chargers want to do. Their pressure, to me, is superior to what The Eagles.
- [118:54]
A
So I would have agreed with you until I watched the Raiders. I know open guys, line and floor, run the ball and have explosive plays. And I thought the only case for it is that Houston was just looking ahead to the week later and that's it. Because they were bad. They're bad on both sides and I thought they deserved to lose.
- [119:12]
C
Oh, they could have lost. They definitely could have.
- [119:15]
A
Yeah, they were. They definitely, they blew everybody's 10 point teases if you did those. They barely covered the Houston moneyline stuff that everybody had. So it sounds like. Well, then Jags, Colts. I just, I don't know if the Jags lose again this season. I think, I think they have the eye of the tiger. I don't want to even think about going against them until the playoffs. So it sounds like you like the Texans more than the Chargers.
- [119:43]
C
I think I do. I have so much respect for the Chargers.
- [119:47]
A
I'm tired of going against the Chargers.
- [119:48]
C
I understand.
- [119:49]
A
I just feel like they stick it to me every time.
- [119:51]
C
You know, there they were underdogs in all three games. They were underdogs against the Eagles. They were underdogs against the Chiefs. They were underdogs against Dallas. And all they do is come out and play really, really, really impressive defense. Their defense has been outstanding for the past month. That's a, that's the toughest mother effort. You know, we, a lot of people, including us, have had a lot of fun at his expense. But that's one tough big boy. He has been playing big boy football now, taking the hits. You know, part of the handicap for why I thought the Eagles had a nice chance. That left hand was all banged up, him going down on it. He can't run. It doesn't matter. He just takes it. He takes it like a man. I've been so impressed.
- [120:37]
A
I still might take the Chargers as one of my picks. I really cooled off on Houston after last week. Sure. It might be an overreaction.
- [120:43]
C
Completely understandable.
- [120:44]
A
I was really unimpressed.
- [120:45]
B
I get it.
- [120:46]
A
I don't think Vegas is good.
- [120:47]
C
I'm not arguing with you. I am not arguing with you.
- [120:50]
A
There. Seahawks, Panthers plus seven and a half at home against the Seahawks. Weirdest line of the week.
- [120:56]
C
This is Seahawks role. This is, this is that. You know, the Panthers are every other week and their season comes down to, to week 18. You know, they, they have to beat Tampa again. That's it. That's. That's why Tampa's favored to win the division. That's why, you know, the Panthers handled Tampa no Problem whatsoever. I love Seattle here.
- [121:19]
A
Well, so there's a world where if the Dolphins beat the Bucks, the Panthers could actually win the division this week if they somehow beat Seattle. I think the line's a little too high, but it also makes me suspicious. Why is the line so high? Why should we trust Seattle on the road, on grass and in Sam Darnold's own hunts in Carolina?
- [121:39]
C
Seattle's been awesome on the road. I think that they have covered nearly every game for two years. They've only lost twice on the road in two there. It's an awesome team under Mike McDonald, an awesome road team.
- [121:52]
A
So Niners, Bears. Niners minus three against the Bears and Green Bay loses. Saturday night. The Bears quench the NFC South. And the Bears have now had six come from behind wins in the last two minutes, which has only happened zero times since 1970. And the Niners are looking really good. The Bears should have lost last week. If the Bears had lost last week. If they just lose 16, nine. What's the line for this game?
- [122:18]
C
Ooh, that's a great question. Four and a half kids minus four.
- [122:21]
A
Four and a half. Yeah. So getting an onside kick gave give them an extra point and a half.
- [122:26]
C
Romeo Dobbs did it. He gave it to him.
- [122:28]
A
Is there some recency bias with how good the Niners looked and now you're peak of the market with the Niners five weeks.
- [122:34]
C
Is that recency bias one of the most efficient offenses in the NFL?
- [122:38]
A
I like Niners minus three.
- [122:40]
C
Me too. We're. We're in lockstep on this.
- [122:42]
A
Okay. What, what game did I not mention that you like?
- [122:46]
C
I think the Eagles have something up their sleeve. They still have an outside chance at the two seed. It's a long shot. But with if this Bears team loses down, the Bears will, will know the outcome of Eagles Bills going on Monday night.
- [123:08]
A
I think Buffalo and the Eagles are plus one and a half.
- [123:12]
C
They're getting back both Jalen Carter and most importantly Lane Johnson. Lane Johnson's definitely going to play. And Bills are beat up. They came out of that Cleveland game. Allen's got something going on with with foot.
- [123:28]
A
He is a bad ankle.
- [123:28]
C
Yeah, yeah, whatever that that thing is. Jordan Poy seems like he's going to.
- [123:33]
B
Be out.
- [123:35]
C
And this Eagles team, the defense has been outstanding for the most part. Other than the second half against Dallas, they've been very, very stout. This is a game where, you know, this is a, you know, state your class game. Eagles went out. They still have a chance at that two seed. It's not, you know, that they need the Bears to lose both, but that's, that's. That's conceivable. Bears have two tough games left.
- [124:07]
A
I thought the, I thought the Bills defense was alarming last week against Cleveland, and if Cleveland was any good at all, they would have won the game. They just couldn't really put it together, but they were getting explosive plays with guys you'd never heard of. It's still really hard for the Bills to move the ball without the explosive plays. They're just putting so much pressure on Cook. Feel like the Eagles should be able to take Cook out, right?
- [124:31]
C
Yes.
- [124:32]
A
Kind of shrink the field, make Allen try to beat them over the top. I, I like the Eagles as well. I think that's a good point. About. Are we sure Carter and Lane Johnson are come back?
- [124:44]
C
Lane Johnson's definitely back.
- [124:45]
A
Okay. All right. Well, we have five and let the. Unless there's another game you like.
- [124:50]
C
No, I'm, I'm happy. I wanted to make sure we got the Eagles and the niners were my 2 favorite.
- [124:57]
A
Eagles and the Niners. Well, that's great because I didn't know that and I really like the Niners. Okay, so we have today's Ringer 107 brought to you by FanDuel. Hoping to change our luck this week. It's been a pretty gruesome year. I still feel good about the playoffs, though.
- [125:13]
C
I mean, cheers to us.
- [125:14]
A
Listen, I'm going to keep my process the way it's always been. Sometimes it's not. And by the way, if people want to go against us every week, great. I just hope people get picks either way. First one, Christmas Day Vikings plus seven against the Lions who have no offensive line and no defense. We don't really care who the quarterback for Minnesota is. Minnesota's defense can carry this one ugly game probably a little under. And I think the Vikings could actually win and so does Joe House. It's a possible. It's a moneyline play.
- [125:44]
C
It's a moneyline play, but we're going.
- [125:46]
A
To take the plus seven and we get a touchdown. That's the first one. Second one. Parlay. House didn't love this one, but I like the fact that Clayton tuned my play for the packers in this game. Saturday night Ravens, if they played Derek Henry with seven minutes left, did they just beat the Pats? And we feel great about them. Probably.
- [126:03]
C
Who can say? Ask Coach Harbaugh.
- [126:05]
A
Parlay Ravens plus four and a half. Under 54 and a half. Let's go. 55 points combined to Beat this with Clayton Tune or Malik Willis. Maybe Tyler Huntley. I don't see 55 points.
- [126:19]
C
Three base defense is excellent. It's fine.
- [126:21]
A
Yeah, I don't see 55.
- [126:23]
C
Not mine.
- [126:24]
A
I think it's a three point game. I'm getting four and a half. I might win and I don't think it's high scoring. There's two.
- [126:28]
C
Okay.
- [126:31]
A
I'm deliberately defying House on this one. This is one of my picks. Chargers minus one half against the Texans.
- [126:38]
C
It's a 5050 game. Well, I'm not going to say anything disrespectful about the Chargers.
- [126:44]
A
You know, I, I was one of the leaders of the Texans. Defense is awesome. Being running.
- [126:48]
C
You were, you were.
- [126:48]
A
I didn't like how they looked at all against the Raiders last week.
- [126:51]
C
Okay.
- [126:51]
A
And I don't like that they're giving up plays up and down the field and big plays and I just wanted a little more. Chargers minus one and a half. All their offensive weapons are back. They've learned how to play without their tackles. Herbert has gone up a level. I like Carbaugh over the Texans coaching staff in close games.
- [127:10]
C
Fine.
- [127:10]
A
You've seen Harbaugh do this.
- [127:12]
C
Understandable.
- [127:12]
A
Think they can run the ball? If the Chargers win this, the Texans keep the Colts alive. And if the Colts can somehow beat the Jaguars, we would have a Colts Houston game. That means something. People are starting to get worried about there. No bit being no Week 18 game that has any sauce.
- [127:32]
C
I mean, Panthers Bucks is going to be there.
- [127:35]
A
Yeah, that's what I mean. Does that game have sauce? Do you want to. We watched that game last Sunday. Did you enjoy it?
- [127:41]
C
It's the worst kind of sauce that's out there. I can't even come up with a.
- [127:44]
A
Bad sauce because special sauce. Remember we were in Jersey Shore that time with Jacko and we went to Mr. G's and they had the omelet with the Mr. G special sauce and we made like a million jokes. But Mr. G. Did anyone eat it?
- [127:59]
C
I don't remember. I wanted.
- [128:00]
A
I was scared. I didn't know how Mr. G was depleting his sauce. All right, so that's pick three Niners minus three Bears. We're both aligned on this one. And by the way, if Green Bay loses on Saturday night, the Bears quench this NFC south would have the one seed to maybe play for. Not that realistic, but that line probably goes up. And then last but not least, we both like the Eagles and Buffalo against a Buffalo team that barely hung on against Cleveland last week. The Eagles might be getting some guys back. House Carter.
- [128:29]
C
Yeah.
- [128:30]
A
Lane Johnson.
- [128:30]
C
Yep. Yep.
- [128:31]
A
Could this be the game where they. Could this be the Eagles tease everyone into thinking they're back and the NFC runs through them? Maybe.
- [128:38]
C
Maybe.
- [128:39]
A
No. This.
- [128:40]
C
This. This is a game. It lines up the same way. Where we watched the Eagles go into Green Bay and it's just this super low scoring. Their defense dominates. It's that it's like that kind of game.
- [128:52]
A
It'll be interesting to see if the Eagles can force John Josh Allen to not be in a fun game. That was today's Ringer 107 Bro by Fando Odds subject to change. Any NBA thoughts you want to throw in before we go? I just did 90 minutes with Lego.
- [129:09]
C
Whatever the line is for that. Cleveland. I like the Knicks on the money line.
- [129:13]
A
Oh, you want to do Christmas?
- [129:16]
C
I got a couple thoughts, you know, a couple games that I got circle like the overall.
- [129:20]
A
So you don't want. You don't want to take the dysfunctional calves on Christmas. Dysfunctional family calves.
- [129:25]
C
I did give out again on the Monday show. The line for the the Charlotte Hornets in Cleveland. Cleveland was laying nine and a half. I said, please, everybody run right now. It's middle of the day Monday. I know you're busy Christmas shopping. Get to the sports book. Grab the nine and a half. That's a big fat winner. Of course it was a big fat winner right out there. Charlotte lost by seven. Not. Not 10 though. That's a winner.
- [129:51]
A
They were down the whole game too. Yeah. So we have Knicks minus six. We have OKC minus 11 and a half against San Antonio.
- [129:59]
C
That's too rich. Too many points.
- [130:01]
A
Dallas plus 235 against Golden State. The Rockets minus 180 against the Lakers. I have no idea who's playing for the Lakers. And then Minnesota plus 158 against Denver. You want to do a little five teamer just for fun?
- [130:16]
C
Yeah. It's Christmas.
- [130:17]
A
Maybe we'll change our luck.
- [130:18]
C
It's Christmas. Let's see what we can do here.
- [130:20]
A
Okay. So Knicks money line.
- [130:24]
C
Great.
- [130:25]
A
On board with that OKC Moneyline.
- [130:28]
C
That's fine. They have.
- [130:30]
A
You don't want to do the OKC money line.
- [130:31]
C
Oh, that line is seven, by the way. What number did you say that was for?
- [130:35]
A
What?
- [130:36]
C
Oklahoma City and San antonio.
- [130:39]
A
I have 11 and a half on Thursday. The Tuesday line is seven.
- [130:43]
C
Yeah. The Tuesday line is seven. Yep. I got it.
- [130:46]
A
All right. OKC minus 560.
- [130:48]
C
Yeah.
- [130:49]
A
Dallas Moneyline minus 235. Or Golden State minus 290 the Draymond even be on the team on Christmas.
- [130:58]
C
Steph Curry going to come out on Christmas? Well, I mean here's the problem. We're doing this Tuesday. Who the hell knows who's going to play in any of these games?
- [131:07]
A
I kind of like Dallas one. Take Dallas plus seven and a half.
- [131:10]
C
Okay, that's fine. I'm good with that.
- [131:14]
A
Rockets, Lakers, Rockets. Money line.
- [131:17]
B
You know what I prefer with that one?
- [131:18]
C
The line. It's 228 and a half the total. I think that's a fly over a Super fly over 228 and a half. Like.
- [131:28]
A
Okay, I'm going to do the rockets minus 180 as well. Okay, well let's do money lines. The overs are too hard. Okay, do the minus. Do 28 on your own time.
- [131:39]
C
All right.
- [131:40]
A
Minnesota. Denver. Denver minus 5. Denver minus 188. And Anthony Edwards. Never afraid of Denver at any point.
- [131:48]
C
No.
- [131:49]
A
Like Minnesota.
- [131:50]
C
Interesting. So we would put two dogs into this five legger, huh? Minnesota and Dallas. That's a Giant parlay.
- [131:57]
A
Dallas plus seven half. Houston Moneyline. Minnesota Moneyline.
- [132:02]
C
Wow.
- [132:03]
A
That's a big ass number.
- [132:04]
C
The Giant.
- [132:07]
A
Wow. $100 to win 1002 33.
- [132:13]
C
Better than 10 to 1.
- [132:14]
A
Better than 12 to 1 odds.
- [132:16]
C
12 to 1.
- [132:17]
A
Yeah. Knicks OKC. Dallas plus seven and a half. Houston, Minnesota, moneyline.
- [132:25]
C
I mean I like it. Based on what we've seen thus far.
- [132:28]
A
This season, is there anyone you don't feel great about out of those five? I mean that you throw out Dallas? You want to do the Golden State money instead?
- [132:36]
C
That would be my preference. But that's okay. I don't mind. This is how you get it juiced up. And I understand Dallas is playing hard. They just don't have enough scoring at the end of games.
- [132:47]
A
Golden State. If it's golden state money, that's plus 839. I like the Dallas plus seven and a half.
- [132:51]
C
I'll do both.
- [132:52]
A
All right, let's see. Maybe Fando will throw that on their Christmas thing for us.
- [132:57]
C
There you go. They can make a little tree and put these. These are the ornaments hanging down house.
- [133:03]
A
Go back to your.
- [133:04]
C
Make sure there's.
- [133:05]
A
See if you can make yourself sick.
- [133:06]
C
It's the froze, not the Christmas season.
- [133:11]
A
Yeah, Frose, that was the same thing. You almost got me in. It got me in marital trouble.
- [133:17]
C
It's a trial separation. I drank it all.
- [133:19]
A
Broke my frozen machine.
- [133:21]
C
I didn't break it, I just drank it all. It wasn't broken.
- [133:24]
A
It was gone.
- [133:25]
C
It emptied it. Then I went to bed at nine o' clock like an adult.
- [133:29]
A
Good luck with the gambling. Happy holidays. Let's go.
- [133:31]
C
Happy holidays. Good job by us.
- [133:34]
A
All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Legs, thanks to House, thanks to Eduardo, thanks to gahal. Don't forget rewatchables 3 up in the last week and a half. High Fidelity, sure thing and then F1. So enough content for me at least I think to keep everybody busy over the holidays. Not to mention all the other stuff you're watching and consuming. Have a great holiday. Thanks for all the support in 2025. Enjoy your fams. I hope you stay safe and I will see you on Sunday night with Cousin SAP. Must be 21 plus on President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + on President D.C. kentucky or Wyoming Gamble problem called 100 Gamble or visit rg-help.com, call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.orgchinconnecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org In Maryland, Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York.
- [134:57]
B
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