← The Bill Simmons Podcast
The Bill Simmons Podcast
NBA Draft Questions, Harper vs. Fox, and the USMNT’s World Cup Ceiling
02:10:32
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- [00:00]
Bill Simmons
Hey, it's bill from the bill simmons podcast FIFA world cup 26 fans, listen up. Is the official beer sponsor of the FIFA world cup 26. Michelob ultra is giving away $1 million worth of FIFA world cup 26 tickets and prizes. Enter now at michelobulture.com superior access/ fifaworld cup 26 mclob ultra FIFA world cup 26 superior access no purchase necessary. Open us residence 21 begins on december 1, 2025 ends on july 31, 2026 multiple entry periods. Visit www.mcglobeultra.com superioraccess FIFA world cup 2. 6 for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details. The Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by PayPal. We are also presented by the Ringer Podcast Network where it is from Hell Month. On the Rewatchables we put up Hand that Rocks the Cradle this week. I think we're putting up Domestic Disturbance, the Good sun and Pacific Heights all before the end of June because this is from Hell Month. So you have all that to look forward to. All those movies are on Netflix by the way as well. I'm going to be on Netflix on Sunday night with Zach Lowe. We might have a mystery third with us as well, so probably 5pm 6pm ET range. We'll be going live for an hour and a half, getting you ready for a big NBA week that's coming. Speaking of, Tim Legler is coming up in one second and we're going to be talking about the draft, what we learned from the finals. How does that help team building, predictions, all kinds of things. And then I've loved the World Cup. I've watched a ton of it. So I made Anthony de Bundo come on and we talked about USA's semifinals chances, Final 8 chances, some sort of chances. Things are better, things are optimistic. A huge game coming on Friday. I hope you're going to be out at a bar or somewhere fun watching it. But so we talked to the Bundo and that is the podcast. We're going to take a break, Pearl Jam and then Tim Legler. This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by PayPal. You know a clutch move when you see one? A no look pass, a buzzer beater, a big steal. Well, imagine if your wallet could pull off moves like that. That, my friends, is PayPal. Right now you can find offers from hundreds of brands like Sony Allbirds and Viator and save offers before you check out. Earn unlimited rewards plus you can add those rewards on top of credit card points. Now that is clutch. Download the Paypal app today. Save those offers, start scoring rewards terms and exclusions apply. See paypal.com rewards terms, credit card points subject to issuers terms and conditions. All right, so we're recording. It is Thursday afternoon, late Pacific time. Tim Legler is here. He did not join us during the Finals. Cause he was calling the finals and we were coming live after every finals game. I wanna.
- [03:09]
Anthony de Bundo
What's.
- [03:10]
Bill Simmons
I wanna do some draft NBA stuff. And then at the end of this, I wanna talk about what it was like to be there for such a crazy series. I was so excited today. I read that you're involved with the NBA draft this year for espn. I had this whole plan for stuff to talk about. I didn't know we were gonna be able to. I didn't know you were prepped for the draft. This is unbelievable.
- [03:29]
Tim Legler
Well, they listen to be full disclosure, I'm not fully. I still have a few days to get there because this was kind of also a late in the game ad for me to be part of it. It's fun, it's exciting, but at the same time, yeah, like there's a lot to acclimate yourself with and. And I've been doing nothing honestly over the last couple days, but watching a lot of film on a lot of guys just. I saw my new. Seen enough of. Kind of had a feel. But even those guys, you know, to really get into the weeds, you need to see more film on guys. And then there was a bunch of other dudes when you start getting down, you know, anywhere from 10 through 30, because I'm just doing the first night, so I'll be involved with the first round. So like, you got a lot of catch up to do. So I'm kind of in the midst of, of doing that, more or less.
- [04:12]
Bill Simmons
I did the draft two years and I had an incredible amount of fun just diving a half hour on each guy and then basically making a decision on how I felt. And I remember one of the. One of the drafts I had Giannis and I'm like, I don't know, man, he looks pretty good, but it looked like he was playing against 13 year olds.
- [04:31]
Tim Legler
You know what, I'm going to tell you something though. Here's the truth. Like, you know, the new thing, and I don't think this always was the case, but the new thing is with the draft is like the player comps.
- [04:41]
Bill Simmons
Yep. Right.
- [04:42]
Tim Legler
So drop a player name. And it's funny because. And I'm looking. And so in my research and in my film work and I'm pulling different stuff up, and you're seeing different player comps dropped by whatever source. I'm not going to get into those, but whatever the source may be, and I'm just like, man, I don't like these. I don't like the comps because I feel like. I really feel like you're either, as an analyst, you're either going way out on a limb. Yeah. Like, damn, man, that's a big reach because you have no idea ultimately how a guy is going to swim at the next level. And there's a lot that goes into that, man, like, fit, early, just heart, work ethic, handling pressure, maturity, and like, you can do all the homework you want. You don't know, man, until those guys put an NBA uniform on. So some of these comps, I'm going, wow, okay, that's a big bite. But then there's other guys. I'll be like, oh, that's not fair enough to the guy. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I don't think the comp is enough.
- [05:38]
Anthony de Bundo
So.
- [05:38]
Tim Legler
And I feel like either way, five years from now, like, you set yourself up to just get absolutely taken apart. Like, if you. If you. If you put a cop out there of some guy that's like a perennial all star and dude's bust, like, you're going to hear about that in a big way down the road. So I'm not a big fan of the cops. So I'm just. I'm just. I look at these guys.
- [05:57]
Bill Simmons
I have some bad news for you.
- [06:00]
Tim Legler
All right?
- [06:01]
Bill Simmons
I was the one. My draft. That was my big idea for the 2013 draft due to the players comps. I'm Dr. Oppenheimer of this whole thing.
- [06:09]
Tim Legler
Wait, are you the guy?
- [06:10]
Bill Simmons
I was. I was doctor. That was my big idea. I was like, each player will do a comp of whatever. And then the second year I did it, we blew it out even further. And so you're that guy, like Oppenheimer
- [06:22]
Tim Legler
who stares off Oppenheimer in the movie. Like, he stares off and he's seen math theorems and all that stuff. You're seeing. You're seeing former players, like, just bouncing around in your head.
- [06:31]
Bill Simmons
I thought it would be a good way for the audience to understand what they were doing. But it's. And we do it. We did it for the Grant Win draft guy. We do it for the Ringer draft guide. It's. It's really hard because if you do the wrong comp or you. You don't put enough thought into it, it can go as sideways as possible.
- [06:47]
Tim Legler
Have you changed your opinion then? On. On. On, like, even giving the comps, like,
- [06:51]
Bill Simmons
you know where I've gone.
- [06:52]
Tim Legler
Unless it just blatantly. Obviously.
- [06:54]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, yeah. I. I rarely do. It's almost like there's pieces of different guys. Right. Like, when I watch Caleb Wilson and I just. His. You can watch 20 minutes of him on YouTube and think he's going to be one of the best 15 porters of all time. Like, just see. See the way it's edited. You're like, oh, my God, this guy's Giannis crossed with Bam Cross, you know? And the problem with this stuff is you're seeing, like, the absolute best of the best. It's the greatest hits of whatever the college season was, which is why you have to go watch, like, you have to watch the last five minutes of different games. Like, to really do this correctly, you got to see them in different presser situations.
- [07:33]
Tim Legler
That's a great point. And I also. The other thing is, like, the guys that you're comparing them to, when they get the comp, that's that guy at his very best. And you're going, okay with these guys. Most of These guys are 19.
- [07:47]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [07:47]
Tim Legler
Like, man, you know, so whatever. If there's some things that are clearly obvious with their physical profile and maybe in addition to, like, sort of, like, stylistically, okay. But, like, that's the problem I have is you start throwing out guys that are, you know, every year an All Star, hall of Famer, all league players from the past. I'm like, man, that's a lot for a dude that's 19. When you just go back and look at the last 15 years of the draft, there's a lot of dudes that were picked in the top 10 that you can't. That had all kinds of comps from all star players from the past. Yeah. And a lot of those guys weren't even in the league in three or four years.
- [08:26]
Bill Simmons
With all that said, if you watch Darren Peterson's high school tape, he kind of looks like Kobe. Like, those are the comps where you're like, hey, kind of looks like Kobe. Like. Like, that's. I don't know. Is that a blur comp, or is that just what my eyes are telling me? I. I have gravitated. I've been fascinated by the draft my whole life, and even doing it those couple years was really helpful. But I've landed at the point I really value what I just watched in the playoffs. When I think toward the draft, and that's where I've landed the Last couple years, and I feel like there's basically like, three buckets of players, and I want to figure out just the pure studs, right? The first four guys in this draft, I think Flag was like this. Dylan Harper was like, just like, these guys are studs. They're going to make it. They're going to be, at very least, starters. They have all NBA potential. Like, that's a bucket. And then I think the next group for me is playoff guys. And playoff guys, to me means wings that can defend and hit threes and not hurt you offensively, but can switch on defense and just can fit in a series. Bigs who can defend the rim and rebound and maybe even stretch the floor a little, and then guards that can give you offense and not kill you. Basically, those three buckets as playoff guys. And if you look at the draft last year, Murray Boyles, I think went, what do you go, nine or 10?
- [09:48]
Tim Legler
Yeah.
- [09:48]
Bill Simmons
10th, I think maybe 10th. Coward went ninth. Carter Bryant, who I thought actually could have prayed probably a little more. San Antonio, 14th. But we're always taking these guards ahead of these guys. And sometimes I wonder, like, is this just the undervalue? Over and over again every year, these guys that we know are going to be playoff guys, and yet they always go 3, 4, or 5 picks too late?
- [10:08]
Tim Legler
Yeah, no, I think it's a good point. I also think, like, Carter Bryant's a fascinating guy to me. And I went. You go back to, like, last summer, first time I saw him, had seen a lot of film. Then I called his first game in Vegas in summer league, and I was like, this guy was. He was so much more athletic than everybody else out there. To me, and he's so rangy and bouncy and, like, hyper energized. And I'm like, man, this is the type of dude, if he figures out how to shoot a little bit, this is the type of guy that you look at down the road four or five years as, like, an elite, elite perimeter defender. And I still think he's got a chance to get there. And the good news for him, his perimeter shooting really came a long way this year.
- [10:50]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [10:51]
Tim Legler
Now, you know, and Mitch Johnson clearly, like, shrunk trust a little bit once they got deeper into the postseason. And look, he did play him. The one game we called against Jalen, three straight possessions, and Jalen Brunson just went right into the paint and just bodied him up and footworked him to death and made three straight buckets. And it was demoralizing, probably for this young Kid. But look, my point is, he's another dude that we didn't talk much about because we were spending so much time on Harper. This is another guy they got. That's going to be a big part of their future. There's no question in my mind. Yeah.
- [11:22]
Bill Simmons
And that's a guy that, in a playoff series, he makes sense to me. He's clearly like a four. He could guard different positions. So when I look at, like, Rez Johnson on Michigan, and he's all over the place, right? Like, he's in our draft guide. He's 13. I've seen him in mock drafts. He's like 10 to 14. And yet he's the kind of guy like, OK, so you'll take him at 12, and he'll be like, of course. Of course they took him. That's going to be who it is. But what's let's do. We can talk about some of the neat stuff later. The top four is so much fun. And I'm always a big. Take the guy that you think is the best guy. Like, figure it out. You have months and months to study these guys, how they would fit in with your team. Just go out on a limb and take your guy. This is one of the only times I ever remember looking at a top four like this and thinking I'd kind of be okay trading down to four. Like, if I was Utah at two and I couldn't decide, it's like, I might be okay moving backwards two spots and getting even more stuff if somebody was super excited about Peterson. But who's your favorite out of these four?
- [12:25]
Tim Legler
DeBonsa is my guy. DeBonsa is the guy. I believe that. I think that'll be the pick. That should be the pick. I think what we're hoping for, you know, is that he's enthused about the situation. I mean, he's hard to tell. He's very stoic. He actually came into the green room in. I think we're in San Antonio. I don't remember what game during the finals. He happened to be there that day. They brought him in. I think his dad. They came in and we met him and talked to him a little bit. And I was joking. I'm like, hey, man, I give you good restaurants in Washington. But it's been, you know, 30 years since I played there, 26 years. So I think they've probably changed. We had kind of had a joke about it. He's very serious guy, man, you know, And I'm just like, maybe that's just kind of how he's wired. Because I know a lot of people read into, you know, that when the lottery happened and the Wizards got the first pick, and he was there and they showed him, and he just looks so serious, borderline unhappy. And I just was like, man, let's just give him some. Let's just give him a little bit of slack here, right? This is overwhelming to him. He has now gone from, you know, in the last two years. You think about, you're trying to find your way as a high school player, hitting the AAU circuit, climbing the charts, and now you're the number one pick, a presumptive number one pick in the draft. You know, going to a team that's had, you know, hasn't won a lot in a long time, it's a lot to process. And maybe people are viewing you a certain way. So I'm not going to read into that he's the guy, because I think his. His what he could do from a skill standpoint, combined with the physicality that he brings and some of those metrics, that combination and versatility in his game, I feel like he's got a greater margin to find his lane, because I'm not sure exactly what ultimately his ceiling is, but I think he does kind of like everything well. And he's very athletic and he's strong and he's tough, and he seems serious about this. He's a worker. He looks like a guy to me that, like, you go, okay, we bring him in because we think he's the best guy. Not exactly sure how we're going to plug him in, how we're going to use him, what his ultimate strength is, primarily early. Offensively, it doesn't matter because there's a lot to work with. I think for me, combination of size, the toughness, athleticism with the skillset, I think this is the right pick.
- [14:33]
Bill Simmons
I landed there early February. I watched these guys for a while, and at some point it was like, what are we doing? He's gotta be the first pick, especially. Cause you don't know what his body's gonna look like five years from now. You know, he already looks like he's 26. And you think about, you know, some of the guys like the Tatum, Jaylen Brown guys like that, how they grew into these adult bodies. By the time they're 25, 26, 27, like the muscle he's going to put on, you can play their position. By the way Washington's taking him, that's. That's how this is playing out. They're going to take him and I don't for sure.
- [15:06]
Tim Legler
And he joins a group. I mean, look at, look at their roster and the number of like top 10 picks on their roster. They've got a lot of lottery picks there. Fits in with what they have developing nicely.
- [15:15]
Bill Simmons
He does.
- [15:16]
Tim Legler
And the one thing they don't have though, they do not have a face of the franchise type of guy. They don't. They've got some, some former number one pick or former lottery picks. And like Sarbi, the top of the list for me, like, he's grown tremendously. I really like his game. But this, this guy is different because of the nature of the position. This is a guy that you could put the ball in his hands in the open floor, in the half court. He can go get his own against guys. That's a lot harder for a guy as tall as Alex Sar. He's never going to have like that type of handle to just go break a guy down. DeBonsa can do it. So they don't have this level of franchise guy even though they've got some really nice young players. Trey Johnson was a guy I loved last year. Guys a walking bucket.
- [16:03]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [16:03]
Tim Legler
But they don't have this, this is a different level. A guy that, with that kind of size that could play off the dribble, shoot it, go get his own and break guys down. They don't have that combination.
- [16:16]
Bill Simmons
And is that a big spotlight on
- [16:17]
Tim Legler
him for a while?
- [16:18]
Bill Simmons
It's the right pick. You know, there's a piece of me wonders if Boozer also was the right pick for them. Um, and we always talk with the draft that you always hear like floor, ceiling, floor, ceiling, every high floor, low floor, high ceiling, lower ceiling. And Boozer seems like he has both a high floor but also potentially a high ceiling with his iq and he's just going to produce. He's been.
- [16:43]
Tim Legler
I like that, I like that way when you put it that way, Bill, because we've seen too many guys in the playoffs, particularly the separation between floor and ceiling, the variance between floor and ceiling.
- [16:52]
Bill Simmons
I don't feel like there's variance with him. Yeah. And the thing I didn't like about him, he didn't have that little foul line jumper. I felt like he would be bowling his way to the basket over and over again when he really wanted to get points, which he could in college and in the pros. You're not going to do that in the same way. But he's. This is the 19 year old version of him. You know, when you think like, he's these guys. I think he has the competitiveness and the work ethic. I think AJ has it. I think Caleb Wilson definitely has it.
- [17:20]
Tim Legler
This was a comp, by the way. I did like, Can I tell you the comp? I saw that I did kind of like, what was it with this, with Boozer? It's Kevin Love. I thought that was a pretty good computer. Think about Kevin Love at his best in Minnesota before he went and sacrificed a lot to go win. But his first years in Minnesota, think about how productive he was because he's. Boozer's not a guy that's gonna blow you away athletically, he's more of a grounded game, but I think he's going to stretch his shooting out to be a really consistent, deep NBA shooter. He's already got good shooting range. That's got to improve. Obviously, it's a huge thing. Those extra three, four feet, you really have to put some time. And I think he can get there. Any ball that he gets his fingertips on off the defensive glass and is his very Kevin Love. Like, he's smart, he can outlet the ball quickly because he's got a high iq off the glass, he gets it out of his hands quick to the guard. That's a Kevin Love trade, too. So, like, I don't love a lot of comps. I thought, yeah, Kevin Love, at first I saw it. It's like, let me think about that. And then I started watching more and more film on booze and I'm like, you know what? I don't mind that one.
- [18:22]
Bill Simmons
I loved heavier. Kevin Love was one of my favorite rebounders of all time. When he had like the extra 20.
- [18:29]
Tim Legler
Couldn't displace him if he was down there. No. If he got position, it was game over. And he wasn't going to jump over you at all. He just got his back on you and you was done.
- [18:38]
Bill Simmons
Man, one of the best offensive rebounders I've ever seen. That earlier version of him, like, if anything about, like the great, great, great rebounders that I've seen in person. And I'm sure you played with and against some of these guys, but Moses was an all timer. I wrote about this in my book. Moses had this trick where he would kind of go under the basket, almost out of bounds, and then he would just back in backwards and then he would just be next to the rim tipping it in. Moses Barkley was incredible. Kevin Love was another one that Kevin
- [19:07]
Tim Legler
Love also did very similarly to a big play in the game. What Mitchell Robinson did to wemby on that big missed free throw where they walk guys so deep they can't react to the ball. It gets beyond them. Kevin Love was great at that. I can see Boozer being that type of rebounder because they're not, they're not going to get those ones where you're going to run from point A to point B, cover 20ft because you're tracking it with your eyes. And then you just go jump over two guys and get it. They're not going to get those kind. It's got to be done a little bit more with body positioning and then just IQ and just their sense and instincts for the ball. So high. So I think, I just think Boozer, to your point, floor is pretty high with him. It'd be hard to imagine him not being a really impactful NBA player. Even if he doesn't turn into a franchise guy, which all 40s, top four, who knows? Maybe they could. He might not, but his floor is so high. It's still. He's still going to be a really, really good NBA player.
- [20:06]
Bill Simmons
I think he's just going to be excellent. And I said this a week and a half ago, I think Utah is going to take him. I have no inside info. It's just as from watching how Danny Ainge treated the draft for the last 25 years. Knowing some of the stuff that you need in Utah, like they, they know his family, obviously, because his dad played there and his dad works for them. To have a guy who could be this good who would also be like, yeah, I'm fired up to be in Utah. I think that matters and I'm not afraid of having him. And I love him and Jaren Jackson together. Like, to me that, that, that's a combo that really makes sense. Whether marketing's there long term or not, I don't know. And then Kessler, as another shopwalker, he could play with him too. I just, I'm good with like doubling down on size over taking Peterson and hoping last year was just a weird year and he's more like the high school Peterson versus the freshman year Peterson. I think Peterson is one of the toughest evaluations we've ever had with this. I don't know what to make of the fact that he got worse in college than he was in high school and that he didn't seem as. He doesn't seem as twitchy, he doesn't seem as fast. I don't understand it. I didn't understand the creatine thing. Like, what do you make of all this?
- [21:18]
Tim Legler
He Is first of all, I'm just going from the pure because a lot of the stuff I don't think we have the answers to ourselves. But when you just evaluate the guy physically and his tools translating to the next level, he's one of those guys. I watch him. Some of the stuff I've watched, I'm like, man, that's NBA ready right now. The guy can flat out score. He's got a control about his game that is almost like even though he's out there with another two 19 year olds paired or a couple of 20 year olds or whatever, he just looks so much more mature in his movements that it's obvious how easy it's coming to him.
- [21:58]
Bill Simmons
Well, you can see it on defense too, where just the way he's able to navigate around screens and stuff, he's the highest possible level.
- [22:05]
Tim Legler
He's got control, man. But like I'm watching him, I'm good. I've read stuff where he views himself and maybe some people are evaluating him as like a point guard. I don't see that. I don't see that. I mean I think he's to me maybe a combo guard that yeah, you could put him in ball screen. To me, I reserve the phrase point guard for like a different level of understanding of how you're organizing and how easily you're facilitating for other people. Because you're two steps ahead with any action you run. You already know two defenders away what that rotation is going to look like and you're now you know what the next pass is going to be and so you're processing all of that in real time. I don't see that. When I watch him, I see a guy that wants to go score and get his bucket and maybe, yeah, okay, you can run ball screen with him because scorers in this league run ball screen. To use the term point guard. Like this is going to be a point guard one day. That's going to be the guy that's like doing both, making the game easy for everybody while he's also going out getting 20, 25 a night. I don't know that I see him that way. So this to me is more like you want a raw scorer and a guy that's super confident and look at all that size up front already that Utah has. A lot of your points are good about boozer and like the fact, the connection to the organization, all that maybe that matters to them, maybe it doesn't. And he definitely could play with Jared Jackson Jr. And it's actually something Jared Jackson Jr. Needs is a guy next to him that can rebound the way Boozer can because he's not a big time rebounder. He likes to block a lot of shots. He spends a lot of time on the perimeter. Offensive,
- [23:28]
Bill Simmons
six a game.
- [23:29]
Tim Legler
Yeah, yeah. So, but they, but to think, you know, they already have Kessler, they have marketing, who plays a lot of three. That's like another six, ten and up guy to add to the mix to play. Unless they had other plans for some of those guys and they want to move them. And you know, that's. That's kind of almost beyond my scope of what front offices think sometimes. But I look at Peterson, I think he's just a natural raw scorer. So you look at the top of the draft, first team that thinks they need that, that's who should take them.
- [23:56]
Bill Simmons
I think he's a two guard. I agree with you. I don't think he's a point guard, although I do think that line has blurred over the years with the NBA where it's kind of like. I don't think Shay's a point guard. Right. But he is bringing the ball up a lot. But you and I, we grew up with like point guards were actually point guards. Their whole role was like table setter, almost like a host on a studio show or something. Their role is just to make everybody better. But in the guard position, there are exceptions to it.
- [24:23]
Tim Legler
And you're right, it is blurred more than ever. But there are exceptions to it. For guys that are so dominant off ball, I mean, off. Off of. Off of their ball handling, they're so dominant that they're dictating terms of the defense all the time. And organically, shots are being created for people, even if it's not necessarily in their direct wheelhouse. I mean, like Steph Curry, be an example. Is he a natural point guard? No, he's a guy that created so much offense through his movement and shooting and like the depths to which you had to go to guard him. He created offense just organically by being like Shay with his dribble. Brunson, even as a guy, is he a natural come down table setter? No, but he's so good at breaking you down organically, stuff is created around him. So you have to be on a certain level, if you're the lead guard, let's call it that, because some people prefer that terminology. And if you're the lead guard in the NBA and you want to be a contending team, you better be so damn good that you. Because if it's not your natural thing to find that you. That you're creating better opportunities to find because you're so talented with the ball.
- [25:27]
Anthony de Bundo
I'm not.
- [25:27]
Tim Legler
I don't know if he's going to be there or not. It's way too early to know that.
- [25:31]
Bill Simmons
It's the toughest one because there's a. I mean, if you were going to say, out of all these guys who's going to haunt anyone that passes them up, it's probably this guy. Cause I think he has the highest ceiling of anyone. Like he. The high school stuff from a year ago, which I've talked about on previous episodes, is you're just like, oh my God, this guy could be like the next guy, you know, And I don't know what happened to him in Kansas. I really get nervous with red flags before the draft. And I say that knowing I have a 21 year old and 18 year old and you watch kids change in real time every six months, every nine months, and all of a sudden you'd be like, wow, my daughter's completely different than she was six months ago. This is great. I can't believe it. It's like she's an adult. So it's so hard.
- [26:17]
Tim Legler
It's very, very true.
- [26:19]
Bill Simmons
It's so hard to project this.
- [26:21]
Tim Legler
No, no doubt. And it hits. All of a sudden you're just kind of like, wow, that's nice, right? And it's like a friend of mine told me one time, we were talking about this parenting stuff and he said what you have to trust, like, as a parent is that you made those deposits a long time ago, right? And so in one day, like, wow, it hits and then you cash in. You're like, hey, it worked. They're a good human being. Like, you know, sometimes along the way, it's hard being a parent. But like, I think that's what it is. You just trust it. And then you're right. With some of these players, it's the same thing. This is so difficult, man, because of the way that top picks are scrutinized. If there's even any indication that you whiffed early, it could be overbearing for the player.
- [27:09]
Bill Simmons
Reese's Shay in Atlanta.
- [27:11]
Tim Legler
I think it's so much at stake. I'm telling you. Markel Fultz is a guy that. I was at the Curry camp, the top 30 camp, the year that he was getting ready to go into his freshman year, and I was watching this guy and the Sixers had the first pick inside. All my friends are Sixers fans. And so I was like, man, I was out there and San Francisco, and I was, you know, I was working drills and doing stations and putting these guys to it. Coached in the game. They have an All Star Game at the end of the weekend. I coached in the game. Like, Darius Garland was in that game. Like, and I'm like, watching Markel Fulton, I'm like, man, this dude has it. Like, he's got the size. He's got crazy bounce. Like, way more bounce than he ever really even got to show to this point in his NBA career. Like, I would watch him after practice, they would have dunk contests. And I'm watching him with these guys, and I'm like, this dude is big. He's, like, powerful. He's got shifty changes, change of pace. He's got a nasty step back, which is required, and he's got bounce, too. So I'm like, man, and I think going to that market at that time with what the organization had already been through was, I think, overwhelmed him. And he had injuries, too, that. That contributed to it. But I'm just saying, like, these are so important. They're so scrutinized more than ever before. There's so much at stake for these organizations, and you're trying to determine this off a very limited sample size of work, and you have no idea what this is going to look like at the NBA level. And you just pray that these guys want to put the work into the time because the talent's there. And again, trust your deposits when you draft them. Put the deposits in now, five years from now. We hope this hits some guys, obviously, sooner than that. Some guys, never.
- [28:48]
Advertisement/Other Speaker
That.
- [28:48]
Tim Legler
That's. That's kind of where we're at with these top, you know, six, seven, eight, nine, ten picks. It's tough, man.
- [28:52]
Bill Simmons
The only thing I've learned over the years, competitiveness, work ethic. If that's in there at, like, the top, the top of the top, you're. That you're starting out in good shape there. And then the. The durability injury stuff is the third piece, right? Fultz didn't have that. Some guys come in and then you hear, like, the first guy in the gym, last one to leave all that shit. Like, those guys. There's a reason those guys become successful. Like you did that finals with. With Brunson. And then Brunson had that great interview after game five where he. Where, you know, yet again, all of a sudden, he scored a bunch of points in a row, and he was just like, I just go back to all the work I put in the gym over and over. I just pretend I'm in the gym. Like, honestly, that's what. That's what this is about. You can have as much talent as you want, but you still got to work at it. I look at Peter's.
- [29:40]
Tim Legler
But I will say this one last. One last quick point on that. Like. But I do think in addition to the injury with Markel Foltz and whatever it was, was a unique injury. They couldn't really get it. They couldn't get a handle.
- [29:48]
Bill Simmons
It was like a weird shoulder thing. Yeah.
- [29:50]
Tim Legler
With a shoulder. And it changed completely changes mechanics into something that was unrecognizable. I'm just telling you, like, being at a lot of those games and in that building and being close and kind of just observing. I also think there was a component of. It was tough for him being the number one pick, dealing with the injury. And then when he would go into the game when he was healthy, I think it was like a lot of feeling that everybody all eyeballs on number one pick. That market. That's tough, man. And I think it was. It got to the point where, like, they went like, hey, TJ McConnell. We took him out of the rotation at one point completely just because we're like, we got to see if this guy can go. And after a period of time, they put T.J. mcConnell back in there. And the crowd went crazy because it was like, we need a guy that can come out here. Contributed for whatever reason. He wasn't. I was so happy for him, actually, when he went to Orlando and he played pretty well when he first got there. And I'm like, man, hopefully he's going to end up having a long career as a productive NBA guard. But the number one pick, that was difficult for him from the beginning. The injury on top of it made it impossible.
- [30:48]
Bill Simmons
Ben Simmons was another one like that. Pressure, big situations. He had some sort of weird foul shooting thing. Didn't seem like he liked basketball that much. With the Peterson piece, there's some weird agency stuff too, where he has he. He's represented by team, which also is Georgia's agency, and that. That people think that's why they don't want him to go to Utah. So Memphis might be where he goes. I think Boozer is going to go to Utah and I think Peterson will go to Memphis, but who the hell knows? And then we'll.
- [31:21]
Anthony de Bundo
We'll talk.
- [31:21]
Bill Simmons
Let's take a break and then we'll talk about Caleb Wilson. The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by my friends at FanDuel. On the biggest stage in the world, FanDuel is changing the game because sometimes your player gets subbed off and your bet goes with them. Well, not anymore. And it's already. It's already cashed in a few times here during the tournament with FanDuel's super sub. If your player is subbed out, your bet stays in. You just get the guy that subbed in for him. That's right. If your player leaves the match, your bet continues on with the substitute. You just get that position for the whole match. So if you're still in it until the final whistle, you're still in it. Because in matches like these, anything can happen. And now your bet can go the actual distance of the game. Let there be goals this summer on FanDuel. Visit FanDuel.com BS to get started now. 21 select states are 18/DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Restrictions apply. See terms@sportsbook.fandrel.com, game problem. Call 1-800-Gambler, call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat Connecticut. All right, so if you were the consultant to the Wizards and they're like, hey, Tim, I know you do the ESPN games. We're starting to waffle on Debancea. The owner saw this high school tournament where Peterson scored 48 and looked like he was the greatest player of all time. Is Peterson going to come back to haunt us? What would you do if you were us? You would just say, no. No. Ride the course. Just stay with the bandsa. Don't overthink it 100% that you just.
- [32:55]
Tim Legler
You literally took words out of my mouth. That would be what I would say. Don't overthink this. And it happens all the time. Don't overthink this. I don't have really any reservation whatsoever that the Bance is going to be a star in the NBA. How long it takes, I don't know, down the road. I mean, look, that's an organization that obviously I played at a long, long time ago. There hasn't been a lot of stability there for a long time. So it's a situation. A bunch of young dudes. Now, look, Trae Young saying, you know, opt out. I don't know what that means for them. Is Anthony Davis going to be bought into being there? If Trey's not, you got all these other young lottery picks. I doubt Anthony Davis is going to want to be part of that. So. So it's this young group of dudes all high Picks trying to figure this out together. He becomes the face overnight. So there's some. There's certainly some. Like, there's not pressure, which is good for some young guys, but it's also like being part of something that's bigger in a winning culture. Like, that's also good for players when they're young and they're drafted high, they don't have all that responsibility on them. So I don't know exactly what that situation is going to look like, but I have no reservation that he is going to stand out. Barring injury. I think A.J. deBonts is going to be a star in this league.
- [34:09]
Bill Simmons
We agree that Trey Young thing I read as he opted out and he's going to get a longer deal for slightly less money.
- [34:15]
Tim Legler
Yeah, I read the same thing. And we'll see.
- [34:17]
Bill Simmons
That's my interpretation.
- [34:19]
Tim Legler
I saw other things that were like, you know, he's relishing this opportunity kind of almost to like, he's got something to prove and he thinks this might be a good situation to do that they're going to love him there. I can tell you that. If he plays and he does the things that Trey Young can do, he's a very entertaining player, very popular player, and he can put up some numbers and he's going to have a lot of athletes around him playing off of him. So it could be a good situation for him. But to get inside the head of a Trey Young at this stage of his career and Anthony Davis, good luck. I don't have enough expertise to know,
- [34:52]
Bill Simmons
yeah, I would assume Davis gets traded. Trae Young. If I'm his PR agent, I would be doing the whole, hey, Jalen Brunson, small guard, discounted. Change teams, NBA title champ. Why can't that be Trae Young? Build the right team around Trey. Could be the Jalen thing. I don't think that will happen. Caleb Wilson, what were your thoughts?
- [35:14]
Tim Legler
Love him. I love him, man. I'm excited about Caleb Wilson. And because, look, there's a dynamic.
- [35:19]
Bill Simmons
Did I say Williams or Wilson?
- [35:22]
Tim Legler
You said Wilson.
- [35:22]
Bill Simmons
I think I did. Okay. I wanted to make sure.
- [35:24]
Tim Legler
I never know about Wilson.
- [35:25]
Bill Simmons
Caleb Wilson.
- [35:26]
Tim Legler
Yeah, I'm pretty sure you said Caleb Wilson.
- [35:28]
Bill Simmons
Great.
- [35:28]
Tim Legler
Love him. Because there's a lot of things I watch with him and he's got that, like, eyes pop factor. You're like, holy hell. Like. And so now you look at the way the league is set up and some of the spacing that exists in that league, and a guy that's got this kind of just explosive power. Yeah. Sign me up for that because I think anything else that you would want to look at his game and if you want to, if you want to tighten up his handle, if you want to tighten up his shooting, particularly shooting off the dribble, I do think those are things that can be tightened up. It's not like for that you either have it now or you don't. That's not the case. Guys add that stuff all the time in their first three, four years of their career and then there's a whole nother ceiling for them. Excuse me, as a score, but that what I'm talking about, that stuff where he explodes off the floor like that. No, that's not something you either have it or you don't. I mean that is something you either have it or you don't. And he's got it. That's not that you're not adding that later. Not that degree of pop. And that's what he's got off the floor. And it blows you away because you're like you're picturing him in any sort of, of open floor situation or even offensive rebounding situations. And it gets a step on A guy like that is what big time explosive finishing ability looks like at the NBA level. The other stuff will come. I'm a huge, huge fan of his upside.
- [36:56]
Bill Simmons
There's a relentlessness with him that almost guarantees he's going to be a really good NBA player. He just really gives a shit. The work ethic, the competitiveness he has, like he, he just has it. I, to me, he's not like a runner jumper. I do think there's like some hoops IQ stuff in there. Like he seems like he'd be fun to play with. And I think if he was with the right kind of guard, point guard, who could be looking out for him and trying to set him up. You know, he's different. Cause Shawn Kemp had a different body. But when young Shawn Kemp came into the league and you just saw people he was playing against, it was a lot of this, like people looking up as he's going over them for rebounds and dunks. There's going to be some of that and then it'll come down to whether he can add a shot, which I'm not going to bet against anybody who's super competitive to eventually be able to add an 18 footer. Right? Kid's 19. When he's 22, he's going to have an 18 footer. I'm not worried about it.
- [37:51]
Tim Legler
And I've watched him shoot enough in game situations. Where you're like, okay, it's not like you're watching it going, oh, man, you know, put a, put a. Put a disclaimer at the bottom of the screen. Viewer discretion is advised on his release. It's not like that. I mean, I've seen guys with. And it looks decent. By the time he gets to the release point, it looks pretty good. There's a lot to work with there. I would be strongly considering taking him. I don't know what the Jazz are going to do. I don't know again, because of how many bigs they have. I don't know if they just want the best available player and they don't care if it's another big or not. But. But if it is Peterson that goes to the Jazz because they just want that another scorer to go, you know, on the wing, then I would strongly consider taking Wilson a three.
- [38:36]
Bill Simmons
So, Danny, all bets are off because he famously was going to take Durant that one year if the Celtics got the first pick over Odin. And I think he was the only one who's going to do that. I rarely say this. If I was Utah, I would try to flip with Chicago and pick up extra stuff and just take Wilson. Cause I. He might end up being the best out of these four guys. I don't think there's any way to know. And I don't think you can go wrong with any of them. Maybe Peterson, if. If last year the red flags kind of started to add up, but if you could move back, still get Caleb Wilson and then pick up like the 15th from the Bulls and other stuff, like, I would think about that. I think Wilson's going to be awesome. And we didn't even talk about this. You're the fourth pick in a, in a four player draft, basically before the drop off. Little chip on the old shoulder. Oh, you didn't think I was the. You thought I was fourth out of four. Okay, I'm gonna show you. And I was like those guys. Nothing like a competitive guy who got passed over.
- [39:36]
Tim Legler
I hear you. There's probably a lot of, you know, a lot of drummers that had, you know, a great solo career at some point, but they never got the credit right. Being in that band, that could be the case. So I think that is something, you know, and that's how this has been framed. And for a while now that it's these four guys and then there's a drop off. I do like some other guys after that. Who's your next favorite going? I love Mikel Brown.
- [40:02]
Bill Simmons
Oh, My God. That's my. I have. I'm terrible at figuring out guys like him.
- [40:07]
Tim Legler
Make the case you don't like him.
- [40:10]
Bill Simmons
It's my weakness with draft evaluation. Because he's a home run hitter. I felt he feels busty to me. But then he also feels like he could be a five top mo NBA guy. And I always like those guys always scare me. What do you like?
- [40:23]
Tim Legler
I don't know man. I just like the fact that he's just, he's a polished, proven scorer. Like he can just flat out score. He's got, he's got handle either direction. Some of the notes I wrote down, big time threat every time he touches scores at every level. Explosive finisher, deep range and a lot of potential to grow. He's got good size. He's not like elite in terms of his size. Good enough size to get his own shot. I and I've seen projections anywhere. I mean he's anywhere 7 to 10 like most of the ones I've seen. So he's going to go in that range. I think somebody's going to get themselves like a big time NBA scorer down the road wherever he ends up going.
- [41:06]
Bill Simmons
He's six three and a half without shoes. He seems like to be the wildly.
- [41:12]
Tim Legler
They don't play barefoot.
- [41:13]
Bill Simmons
Well true. So put maybe six, five and a half with shoes on. He seems like his range is basically like 5 to 12, which is pretty. That's what's so funny about like once you get to that Clippers pick, they don't need a guard, right? They, I mean they don't need a point guard. Cause they have Garland. They just made this trade for them and everybody seems to have Wagler and Acuff there.
- [41:36]
Tim Legler
Acuff's the guy I was just going to talk about. He's the other guy that like is kind of right there in that, in that territory. So like. And you know he's. He's another guy that like you look at both Acaf, Acuff and Brown, both of those guys like really flashy scores. They can go get their own. And in some ways kind of similar in that regard. Acuffs I've noticed seems to me like one of the biggest just consistent jumps up this board basically over the last month or so. It just. And to where I have. I've seen a lot of them where he's going to be the fifth pick. Like he might be the next guy outside that top four, you know. And that is the, that's the Clippers with that pick. So I don't I don't know where if he's going to go that high. But to me he was a guy that during the season you come kind of paying attention. I start to dive in after the season. I start to look more at it after the tournament's over. It feel. I feel like to me he's like solidifying himself on a. On a daily basis. Like he's going to be somewhere in there if he's not the first guy taking. He's one of those first two or three after the top four.
- [42:34]
Bill Simmons
He was my, my crush guy in college. I really became infatuated with him and so did my buddy House. And we watched a lot of him and then he had the run in the tournament. He's just every game he was 26 and 9, 25 and 12, 28 and 8. Oh yeah, he's a great shooter. He's like a pure old school big guy. Gets the rebound, looks for him. He's like a real point guard. Give me the ball. I want the ball all the time. I'm good on fast breaks. I think if you're going to take a guard that high who is clearly a smaller guard who's going to probably be not, not the greatest guy on defense, you better think this guy's a home run and I think he's that good. Like I like he could be.
- [43:20]
Tim Legler
I do think he's a ring. He's a lead guard. He's one of those guys we're talking about. He. That's his style of game. One of some of the notes I just real quick, I wrote down just great change of pace. Like really keeps guys off balance. Explosive first and second dribbles, which is a big deal in the NBA. Like that first one, a lot of guys had that first step. He's got one and two, that second gear as he gets downhill, finishes with both hands really, really well. Like so he can drive either way, gets into your body and he's got like creative finishing because he's probably learned to because again he's not 6, 6, 6, 7 coming at you. He's in that 6, 3 range. So he's had to learn how to be more creative with his finishing. He's a lead guard with outrageous potential. So he would be right there. He might be five like him and Brown. They're going to be right there in that category.
- [44:04]
Bill Simmons
And Wagler is the other one that a lot of people have there. And Wagler's a tough one to me because we talk about like we doing the comps before I Look at Acuff. And he just reminds me a lot of Kyrie. I think he's more of a point guard than Kyrie was, but his ability to finish with either hand, how he uses the stop and start stuff, how he gets somebody on his hip and carries them, sense of the moment, it's all stuff we saw with Kyrie and same thing like Kyrie was. He might be maybe a half inch, inch bigger than him, but reminds me a lot. I don't know who Wagler reminds me of. I don't. I don't know what the roadmap is for him. He's so unconventional. Like, I don't think he had a dunk last year. He doesn't finish at the rim. Everything's like this herky jerky, you know. And that team was built around just what a unique player he was. But he wasn't a top. I don't even think he was top hundred or top 150 heading into college and had this meteoric rise. But I don't know who he reminds me of.
- [45:02]
Tim Legler
One of the things I love about him because I'm always kind of really honed in on evaluating shooting mechanics and release and how that's going to translate. He's got tremendous extension. There are, believe it or not, a lot of guys make shots in college and they're going to be drafted in these drafts and they don't really extend on their finish. And I think to myself, well, it's fine when you feel you're the best player on the court and you're creating a little bit more space than you're going to create it to the next level. You're just not going to be as consistent. Because I think if you're not, if you don't have full extension now, that's going to shorten up even more as the windows shrink to get the shot off. And now you're just never going to be consistent. Front rims. Wagler has tremendous extension. Like, he gets full extension and it's quick. He gets into his shooting motion quick and he's got full extension, elbow lock, wrist lock. At the same time. I look for that kind of thing that, that translates, like, this is who this guy is. That's not going to change. He doesn't need to work on that. He's already got that. He's coming into the league. He can make shots now and then. Now he's climbing because people are looking at him as being more than that. Like he's more than a shot maker. He can do some other Things for you as well. He's got, you know, pretty good size as well. Better size than the two guys we were just talking about and came through
- [46:13]
Bill Simmons
on a big stage, which isn't nothing, you know, like, I, I really thought he got in that tournament. Him and Acuff both were really great. Part of the problem with this is so when you're starting with pick five, basically the next four best guys are point guards who are smaller guards. Cause Flemings is the other one from Houston. And as we know with the draft, not everyone needs a point guard. Like, first of all, we have a bunch of awesome point guards in the league already. There's four more. It makes me think one of them's not going to make it. And then Burris. Have you studied Burris at all?
- [46:46]
Tim Legler
Yeah, yeah, I have. Yeah.
- [46:47]
Bill Simmons
And then Burris is the one who is the best two guard available.
- [46:53]
Tim Legler
No question about it. The thing I love about him better than any of these guys and he had to because he was more off ball than the other three guys. And I think we didn't mention Kingston Flemings, is that the other guy you're talking about. You said that the next three you were talking about Acuff and Brown and Wagler and Flemings. Like those four guys.
- [47:07]
Bill Simmons
Those four guys, yeah.
- [47:10]
Tim Legler
Burry's is more of like what I love about him. You can run pin down action for him. He is, he comes off down screens and he's getting, he's getting his hips turned and swiveling into the catch and it's gone quicker. So like that is like another element to use. A guy like that, he can, he can create offense off his motion because he's such a threat off down screens out to deep. He doesn't necessarily need to play with the ball first to get into his shot. I think some of the other guys we talked about, that's just more natural for them for that rhythm. They need the rhythm first. He's a guy that you could put off the ball, so maybe his usage isn't as high. Maybe he goes to a situation where he can't have high usage because of who they already have, but he could still go get shots up because he doesn't need a lot of time to do it and he doesn't need a rhythm dribble or a live dribble to do it first. He, to me, the best of this group at that kind of stuff. Getting his hips turned off a down screen and letting it fly from deep.
- [48:05]
Bill Simmons
And he's going to be a really good defender. He now he's a year older because than some of these guys, but was a big la. Like, he won the high school state title here, where he was like the lead guard for that team. But I've said this, he's been my favorite guy out of the top four, other than Acuff, because it was a lot of the same reasons I led Castle two years ago, because he's on that great Arizona team, right? And they didn't really need a lot of what he. So he was just like, all right, well, what do you need from me? All right, I'll do this, this. And he just kind of figured out how to fit in. Hit a couple big threes when they needed them, play defense, do. Do like all like the nitty gritty stuff, which is exactly what castle did at UConn. And then when Castle went to San Antonio, like, he was able to. And I think Burris has that in him. He makes the most sense for the Clippers. My question is, you don't necessarily need to take him at 5. Could you trade back? Could you flip spots with the Kings, who everybody thinks they want? Acuv, could you flip spots with them, pick up one extra asset and then take Burry's at 7?
- [49:11]
Tim Legler
You'd have to. I mean, listen, as we know, all these guys were talking about its beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Because I haven't personally. A lot of the different mock drafts I've been studying and looking at haven't seen them really that high. So you'd have to be just one of those things where what you see is like, man, what he does these particular specific things better than some of the guys we've talked about who, like, yeah, man, they got a lot of junk in their game. They do a lot of stuff. They're scorers, natural scorers. But we like this specific skill better to take him that high. Most of the ones mock drafts I've looked at have not seen him as high as 5. So I don't know where, you know, he ends up.
- [49:48]
Bill Simmons
But what do you do if you're the Clippers, though? Because you have Kawhi, who's going to be 35 next year. You've Garland, who's your point guard. And if you're taking another point guard, you could talk yourself into it and just be like, look, we're going to be a little unconventional. We're going to have these two scoring guards. And you know, we're not. There's going to be some bad stuff on defense. But that. That's why we have Ty Lu and a coaching staff I just find hard to believe they're going to do that, which is why I feel like they're going to trade back and take Burris would be. There's one other trade I love. I got to throw this at you. This is just in general something I've been watching. And you didn't do the Western Conference for playoffs this year. Right. Did you do the ot? Yeah.
- [50:28]
Tim Legler
You did the east, we did the Eastern Conference. Yeah.
- [50:30]
Bill Simmons
You had the stinky stinky sweep.
- [50:32]
Tim Legler
We had the Knicks just treating people like a wood chipper.
- [50:35]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, you had that one.
- [50:35]
Tim Legler
Yeah.
- [50:37]
Bill Simmons
I don't know what happens with Wallace and OkC where you have these, you have Shea and now you just gave maxes to Chet and you gave of Max to J Dub and you have Wallace who after the season is very interesting. He had a little moment in a press conference where he was basically like. It was interesting when I. Or he said something about when Shea was out during that stretch and Wallace had the ball. And you and I talked about this in a pod where it was like
- [51:02]
Tim Legler
did a couple of games during that time.
- [51:04]
Bill Simmons
There's a lot more with Wallace here that we didn't really get to see. Then the playoffs happen. He's back to 25 minutes a game. I mean, he averaged eight points a game this season. Right. It's year three for him. All right, well, what's he worth? Because you're talking extension now after year three. You can extend a guy and if I'm him, I'm like, there's more here. I could be the lead guard. I'm one of the best defenders in the league. I'm a $30 million a year guy and I don't think OKC is going to play it, pay it. So what about Wallace and the 12 for 5? Clippers get Wallace, they move back seven spots, OKC moves up to five. Is that too much?
- [51:42]
Tim Legler
You're outside the top four. I mean, look, I think.
- [51:44]
Bill Simmons
Is that too much to give up to for that pick for okc? Yeah. How much do you like Wallace?
- [51:54]
Tim Legler
I like Wallace a lot, but they have to me in their system and the guys that they have. He's one of the better on ball defenders in the NBA, but. And he did ramp his game up a little bit when he got more of an opportunity. But they've also got, you know, AJ Mitchell sitting there like so these. There's you.
- [52:11]
Bill Simmons
And I love him too. Yeah, right.
- [52:13]
Tim Legler
And he's a guy that's just much more dynamic offensively with what he can do. He hasn't even scratched the surface of how good he is going to be. So I like him. But expendable. Absolutely. And this was the problem all along for okc. Well, not even a problem. It's a good problem to have. They want a title and they had like this perfect system and they had a superstar and then they had couple like 2 and 3 were like really good players. And then he had a bunch of role players interchangeable a lot of nights really deep. You're not going to be able to keep all those guys. You're just not going to be able to. And you're not going to need to because of who's at the top. You can find guys, I think that can replicate what those guys do. Maybe have a little bit more scoring punch to them. You know, even look at what they went out and found in McCain, like that move to pick him up and what the offensive punching game where he's playing heavier minutes than some of the guys we're talking about that were staples for this team for two years. And they picked him up mid season coming off an ACL injury because they identify it better than just about any organization. So if they looked at that and said, you know what?
- [53:11]
Bill Simmons
We're not.
- [53:13]
Tim Legler
We think that we can move up and get the guy that we desperately need. We can replace a case in Wallace and then who knows, at 12, man, you can start getting down there. It's a crapshoot anyway to go get the exact guy that they want, whoever that player may be. No, I don't necessarily think that is. But again, I don't know. Like, do they view any of those guys outside the top four as that?
- [53:33]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I don't know. Because it's almost like a math problem. Like at some point Wallace on a rookie contract is perfect. But now with Wallace with a contract looming as you have to pay him basically as like not even better than a fourth guy because he's probably worth like 25 to 30 on the open market with what his ceiling is. Nate can't pay that. And the whole point of having all of these picks and taking swings and grabbing McCain and locking down AJ Mitchell to this great contract is that you have to build this like cheap apparatus around your three guys.
- [54:08]
Tim Legler
You can't pay.
- [54:09]
Bill Simmons
You can't pay Wallace 30 million. So really the time to trade ends now.
- [54:13]
Tim Legler
He's committed to the top three, something like that.
- [54:15]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [54:15]
Tim Legler
So like you're right.
- [54:16]
Bill Simmons
I mean it's so you got. You have to use him and move up. And maybe even then, if you have five now, maybe it's easier to try to even move up into that top four. But it was one. I was thinking, because if, you know, I have Clipper season tickets, I want them to at least be decent next year before aspiration annihilates them. But if they got Kayson, Wallace and then the 12th pick, I feel like they'd be better off.
- [54:39]
Tim Legler
And if they don't get. Get into that, you know, get into that situation where they're going to move that pick or whatever, which I thumped, there's no question they're going to listen to all that because they're not in the top four. And, and, and we think there is a difference there. That's seems to be, you know, if they see that Acoff's the guy, like, if that were the guy and they just looked at him like he's better than everything else. And we think, you know, I'm taking the best available player. I don't care that we have Garland and we've got guard play. I don't care, because this guy ultimately is going to be a guy that can flat out play at the NBA level and he can play quickly at that level. And maybe they hold it and they take that just to take the best available player. But, you know, they're, they're. They're like a veteran team, so it's like, you know, you don't know what their thinking is. Like, they're not. They don't have time to develop guys that they drafted.
- [55:24]
Bill Simmons
That's why Acuff doesn't make sense to me, because you have Kawhi, who's 35, and you're going to play him and Garland. Like, I'm not winning the title with that. As much as I like Acuff or you have to trade Garland at that point, it just opens up these different doors. Did you study the center yet, Mara?
- [55:42]
Tim Legler
Yeah, I was just going to ask you about him because we didn't talk about any bigs really, like real centers. We talked about some bigger guys, but, like, he's different. Here's the thing, man, I watch him. It's so hard for me because even, like, I go back to a guy like Edie and they're like a little bit different. And I looked at Zach Edie and I was like, I don't. As dominant as he was in college, I don't know how he's going to change ends of the floor at the NBA level. Like, it's a big deal. Like, he's Lumbering up the floor. Now it was a turnover. Now you got to get back and run and like, is he going to be too methodical to do anything offensively? He answered this question. Firstly, he leaned up, he worked with their player performance, team and like, even his running stride improved. Everything improved. So it's like, no, this is fine. He can keep up with this and actually do a lot of damage offensively. Kind of stays in a limited lane, but he's an effective NBA player. So now look at Mara. They're different body types that are a little bit different. Mara is like more agile. Certainly the thing I like about him. I was like watching like, he's got a really, really good feel for like passing. A dribble handoff game and he could find guys from the elbows. He's. He's just really clever with his passing. He's thinking one step ahead. It's another dimension to your team. He's a really good rim Protector. The guy's 7:3, so he's going to protect the rim and he moves well. You know, guys like that, there's going to be limitations there offensively, you know, unless he becomes a really good three point shooter and then there's more opportunity for you there. And even like a guy like Clingan is trying to do that in Portland. Like, he's taking more threes because he knows if I don't, I'll never ever get anything other than a rim run, lob or offensive rebound. So I better learn how to do it. Can Mara do that? Can he extend out there? He needs to. I'm sure that's probably all he's doing this summer in trying to extend that range. But I just like his feel for the game. His IQ is touching, his finesse with his passing. I think that translates to a lot of different systems. You can play him. He's going to help make other guys better, particularly if he learns how to shoot the basketball. He just has more upside.
- [57:37]
Bill Simmons
I love the passing too. I like him in general and at one point I was convinced he had to go in the top 10 because he's somebody I could just see in a playoff series. Then I did some more research. The minutes really scare me with him. So when he went to UCLA, which everybody agrees didn't go awesome, he played basically 10 minutes a game and 13 minutes a game for them in the first two years. Then he went to Michigan, played 23.4 minutes a game last year. If I'm taking, if I'm using the 8th pick in the draft like to me that that means like, oh, I can see he's going to be a big off the bench. Like Edie played big minutes, had points, rebounds, and was a proven. Like you can actually put. Now he got hurt in Memphis, but I just think top 10 is too high for him the more I look at it. And maybe OKC can get him at 12 and that's a great pick for them. But this draft is so good and if I have a chance to get somebody like buries at 8 or 9 or Kingston Flemings, I can't take a guy who played 23 minutes a game last year. I just can't.
- [58:44]
Tim Legler
No, it's, it's a fair point. And I think just in general, you're just looking at him and you're going. When there's other guys that I think you're just looking at offensive upside, you know, three, four years from now is so much greater. It, it can be hard to justify that unless you have glaring hole, like a glaring need. Like we're so undersized up front. We don't like the bigs that we have if it's so glaring and he's available and he's in that 10ish range somewhere in there.
- [59:09]
Bill Simmons
OkC12, that's, that's like the perfect flyer.
- [59:12]
Tim Legler
You can take a flyer on him.
- [59:14]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, but like, I don't think Golden State can take him at 11 because they need athleticism, they need, they need young guys, they need pop. They need somebody that can kind of tilt their team a little bit. And we don't know what they're going to do this summer with. They have. You know, I still think LeBron's going there, like, who knows, who knows what they're capable of this summer. But like, this is a luxury pick. I don't think this is somebody you can take in the top 10 with, with this many good players. And we, we didn't really talk about Flemings. I can't decide on him, like what the ceiling is for him because he's not, it's not huge. He's like 6:1. He's fast as shit, he's really competitive and he's a good defender. But we've also bounce. We've also seen those guys, like people really regret taking those guys, like seventh, sixth, eighth, these six one guys that unless, unless you have a chance to be one of the eight best point guards in the league, it's just not worth the pick. I'd rather have somebody that I know can play big minutes.
- [60:13]
Tim Legler
Yeah, I think that that's look, he's. I've seen him in the top 10, like the bottom two, closer to 10. I've seen him on a lot of draft boards. Like, he's in that area. Some of the other guys, I think, are clearly more like polished right now. Acuff and Brown and guys like that. Wagler, I think, are a little bit different category. He's an interesting one because you start getting to that pick and like, he's the next most talented guy on the board. So I'm curious to see, like, how that ends up. I do, like, kind of like, athletically, the way he competes, like, you're going, okay, that translates like, he's going to be able to hold his own and hang athletically. It won't be a problem for him. He's right there. Same category, those other guys.
- [60:52]
Bill Simmons
Atlanta at 8. I actually think point guard makes perfect sense for me. For them, Sacramento desperately needs one at seven. Brooklyn needs anything. And then Dallas at nine is a fun one because it seems like Kyrie is going to be back. They have Flag. They have a bunch of, like, expensive, really polished swings. Right. They're going to have lively back. They have Gafford, and everybody has buries going there to them at nine, which makes a ton of sense to me. But it's. It's when we get to like, 10, 11, that range I think the draft gets.
- [61:25]
Tim Legler
Burry's going there, to me would be an ideal pick, an ideal fit for him.
- [61:31]
Bill Simmons
It.
- [61:32]
Tim Legler
It fits a need. They need guys that can shoot the ball off of guys they have now that can absolutely collapse the defense and break them down as primaries. To have a guy that you can plug in that's going to get clean looks and shoot him at a high rate, that makes a lot of sense.
- [61:48]
Bill Simmons
Have you done Steinbach work yet?
- [61:52]
Tim Legler
Did do Steinbach.
- [61:53]
Bill Simmons
Big rebounder, pick and roll guy, like classic in the right spots.
- [61:58]
Tim Legler
Yeah, I got his. I wrote down for him. Very strong in the open court. Dude. Sort of bounce off him, Runs well. Athletic. Very, very tough. Yeah, he's a guy that just kind of stood out just because of. He was just like, so physical and so strong. The way he plays the open floor with dudes, sort of. He's just making space organically as he moves up the floor. Yes. Impressed. Particularly just his competitive toughness.
- [62:22]
Bill Simmons
He seems. I'm. I'm not a hundred percent sold on him because I do. I. I just can't get the Spurs, OKC and Spurs, Knicks out of my brain. I'm like, where would he have played in the in those series. Um, but he feels like a perfect Charlotte pick for 14 hey, it's Bill from the Bill Simmons Podcast. FIFA World Cup 26 Fans, listen up. Is the official beer sponsor of the FIF World Cup 26. Michelob Ultra is giving away $1,000,000 worth of FIFA World Cup 26 tickets and prizes. Enter now at michelobaltra.com Superior Access/ FIFA World Cup 26 Michelob Ultra FIFA World Cup 26 Superior Access no purchase necessary. Open US residents 21 begins on December 1, 2025 ends on July 31, 2026 multiple entry periods. Visit www.michelob ultra.com Superior Access FIFA World Cup 26 for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Countless hours in the gym, 1000 shots before tip off. Day after day on the same court with the State Farm stanchion right there. That's right, the best players put in the work. And State Farm is the same way with insurance experts who put in the work as well. Whether you get a digital quote or reach out to a local agent, State Farm is there to get to know you and help you select the right coverage that fits your life and your budget. Putting in the work is what separates the good players from the great. And that's why you want State Farm on your team. So get the coverage that's right for you. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. This episode is brought to you by HubSpot. You know why elite point guards make everyone better? It isn't just the no look dimes. It's because they know everything. Who's hot, who's tired, what the defense is doing, which teammate needs a basket. Most businesses don't have that. Sales run one play, marketing runs another. Nobody told service. The game plan has now changed. HubSpot gives you that point guard vision. One platform, full customer context. And that context is everything you need to win. Visit HubSpot.com to learn more. All right, we got to play quickly. I sent you a list of all the favorites for the 2027 title. And just like. And it's a good time to think about this because we're heading into trade season, the draft and free agency right now. So just quickly. Spurs are the favorites right now in FanDuel +250 and their big question is the Kelton expiring. And then they have 20 and 35, 40, 42. So they have stuff to move around and do stuff you were There you were in the house for these games. They have Fox, whose extension hasn't even kicked in yet. You have a bunch of spurs fans like, let's get this guy the fuck out of there. It's Dylan Harper time. What do you do? What do you do with Fox?
- [65:13]
Tim Legler
It's tough because his number's going to be big. I'm not. Listen, I don't overreact to the extent obviously a lot of people do, particularly spurs fans right now. The way they're feeling about the series he had. It's a big moment specifically. But the guy can still play and he's going to be getting a big number. He still does add a dimension with his speed. He's a high caliber NBA guard that had a terrible finish to his season. I don't know that that's going to carry over. He wasn't 100% healthy. He'll get healthy over the summer. Nobody was really feeling this way about him most of the season. So it's a terrible way for him to end. He's going to be part of the mix here. So. But now the question is going to be this. And people that are watching the finals heard me repeatedly, particularly in the last game. How are you going? 5, 6 possessions in a row. And Dylan Harper is off the ball kind of hanging out when he was by far to me the most comfortable player on the spurs in that game. And it just in general looks that way all the time. But think about the stakes in that game. You cannot keep this dude out of the paint with one defender. You just can't do it. His shooting streaky. It'll get there. I think Harper's. But the thing is he can also make plays for people. He's a great defender. Is it time you go, that's our starters and we're not going to start all three of these guys. Is Fox at that number. Something is going to be smart to bring him off the bench and be more of like a second unit guy to go get his offense rather than continue to start him and bring Dylan Harper in. Even though a lot of nights now you're playing them starters minutes doesn't make a lot of sense. So I don't know what exactly the solution is going to be. Clearly this is Harper and Castle going forward. Particularly the sooner that Harper becomes a more reliable shooter because Castle got better as the year went on. He was over 40% after the all Star break. It's still got his wheelhouse and he can be very streaky from there. And Harper can too. That's tough. And if you want Fox a little bit more, he's a bit more consistent with his mid range pull up even with his three point shot most of the time. Certainly not there late for him. But I don't know what the answer is. I just know this is Harper and Castle. Is it next year, the year after, whenever is it going to be. I don't think Fox is going anywhere at that number coming off of that series. So you better kind of wrap your head around it. As a Spurs fan, could you feel
- [67:24]
Bill Simmons
it being that close sitting courtside? Could you feel Fox starting to waver, confidence wise?
- [67:31]
Tim Legler
Yeah, I did. I think it was. It was more than just whatever he was going through physically. There's no question, it's. It got. Here's the thing I'll say about Derek Fox. I don't think I've ever seen him miss as many makeable looks for him. It's not like this dude was getting draped because he couldn't separate because he was that injured. He was getting to his pull up, he was getting hooks, there's little spins that he likes to take. He was getting to that little quick pull up when he gets like a ball screen like at 22ft instead of 30 and he comes off and he just stops on a dime at 18ft. I mean his release was clean most of the time. And so that told me all I need to know. Like it's. It's definitely in here. He's feeling something now string together with like bad performances now you start to overthink it. I got a lot of respect for the guy. He's unbelievably smart. He's a good teammate. Like we interviewed him a lot during the series. Guy's just got a lot to say that's meaningful as a leader. He had a terrible series, man. And he had some moments that were very difficult for spurs fans to swallow. I get it. You don't just put this guy out at the curb with the recycling can. You can't do it.
- [68:45]
Bill Simmons
But do you feel like, I don't know, it's a small piece, medium piece or big piece of this is. You have this fucking prodigy behind you who deep down you probably know, even though he barely knows what he's doing is probably better than you in point guard. And you have that piece too, where it's. Every time this guy comes in, he's swinging the game and swinging. The energy of it getting to where he wants to go and he's not scared. And you know, the fact that he played 31 minutes a game in that series and Fox played 36. That might have been the difference in the series.
- [69:20]
Tim Legler
If you game won that.
- [69:22]
Bill Simmons
I don't know.
- [69:23]
Tim Legler
After Game one, Mitch Johnson admitted, because they didn't remember. That was mostly Fox in the fourth quarter. Harper didn't play much in that quarter.
- [69:30]
Bill Simmons
Four minutes.
- [69:30]
Tim Legler
He said basically. And he. Basically, Mitch Johnson owned it. And he said that was a mistake, man. You know, looking at. He's a young coach, he's allowed to make mistakes. I like the fact that he kind of answered it that honestly. Yeah, I probably need to look at that. I didn't handle that well. And then it was never going to. He said I was just probably not going to happen again going forward. And what he ended up doing was playing them both together a lot in the fourth quarter. But the one the game five was was kind of where I couldn't understand
- [69:55]
Bill Simmons
and I said it.
- [69:56]
Tim Legler
I don't know how many possessions in a row probably in that broadcast. How is Dylan Harper right now? Off the ball right as you start your. Why is he not the initiator of this?
- [70:07]
Bill Simmons
Why is Castle bringing the ball up?
- [70:10]
Tim Legler
There's no. Well, even Fox was doing it. Yeah, Castle. Because Castle does find himself repeatedly, like in foul trouble. I thought he looked absolutely exhausted in that game. He had a terrible shooting night himself. Didn't really impact the game offensively at all, which is rare for Castle because I love him. But it got to the point. Okay, he looks gassed. He doesn't have it tonight. He's expended so much energy guarding Brunson. Maybe we got to go with Fox and Harper. Okay, cool. If you want to do that, go ahead. Harper needs to be the initiator because they hadn't figured out a way to keep this guy out of the lane and they just couldn't do it. And whatever it is what it is. Here's the thing. You're going to have these three guards next year, and I don't know exactly what the plan is going to be because like you said, Fox is a big number. And it kicks in. Harper is on a rookie deal, palatable. But it's obvious to everybody what this guy's going to be. He's going to be one of the major forces at that position in the league soon. Like, if not next year, the year after. So how do you handle that from a playing standpoint and like a fit standpoint of who's on the court at the same time with Wemby as well? So it's a tough decision. I'M glad I don't have to make it. Harper is going to be the future, but Fox is a guy that's a big part of the mix, man. You can't just get rid of it and the guy can still play, trust me.
- [71:29]
Bill Simmons
And Wemby will probably have a little say into this, too. I mean, Harper was. I would take him over everybody in this draft, and I think this draft is better than last year's draft. But to me, he's like, I think he has a chance to be one of the best guards of the last 30 years. Like, I really do. I'd be.
- [71:50]
Tim Legler
Let me ask you something.
- [71:51]
Bill Simmons
I thought the question was doing how unafraid he was, was nuts.
- [71:55]
Tim Legler
Yeah. It's a big statement and I like him so much. I think I probably would agree with you. But that's. That's what I know now. So let me ask you, so, like, going back to before last year's draft, did you feel that way about him then or we. So everybody was so overshadowed by Cooper Flag. It was like we knew that was the number one pick. Or are you saying, like, kind of like what you know now about Dylan Harper and the. Especially the way he grew late in the year that you go, okay, kind of know now, like, what this dude's ceiling is and we might actually be underselling him?
- [72:26]
Bill Simmons
That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Because last year in the draft, the Rutgers season was so weird. I didn't know what to make of that. It's like, all right, this team's going to have two of the top five picks and they couldn't make the tournament. Like, what, 500? Then you watch the Clips and. But. And we talked about him a few times when he came on my pod during the year, but I saw it in the preseason. It was like, oh, my God, what's going on with this guy? And then every time he would just
- [72:48]
Tim Legler
jump out of the TV and he's got. The thing that surprised me is this, in this particular stage, as much as I already kind of believed right there in front of my eyes, when I'm. When I was watching a guy with the stakes that high, with that much pressure and if game was so physical, you know, the way it was, it was defended on both teams. Like, he didn't speed anything up when he. When most guys that age get any daylight, you're going to rush it. Yeah, he missed a layup in Game 5. It wasn't because of that. He just missed a shot. He didn't quite extend his arm Fully. He missed a layoff. That was a big play late in the game. But I'm not, I'm not, you know, that wasn't because of stress or pressure or playing too fast. He could play as fast as he wanted, as explosive as he wanted. And then when it came time to control his body and put English on the ball, even with a bunch of traffic at the rim, he was so far beyond his years in his ability to finish under those circumstances with English and reverse layups, when you think there's no way he can extend and get there. And he made it look so routine that I was like, man, it's amazing to me this guy has arrived at this level this fast in his rookie year. He's like, okay, he's making a statement like, this is kind of what it's going to look like for a while.
- [74:09]
Bill Simmons
And was getting big rebounds. And I really liked his defense. I thought. I loved how him and Castle, that's what made Brunson series so crazy. I thought Castle and Harper defended him great. I loved everything they did. And Brunson just kind of solved it as the series went along and figured out how to score on them.
- [74:27]
Tim Legler
Bill, what he did, we haven't even talked at the finals what Jalen Brunson did in game five against that level of individual defender in front of him. And by the way, it's not just Castle or Harper. Vassell more than adequate Champagne can do a nice job on him as well. And I know by the way, yeah, there's Wemby. Get past all that. Wemby's back there to drop 45 points on them efficiently in something that important against that caliber defense, defense in front of you, it's one of the greatest finals performances of all time. And again, he did it very matter of factly and very routine. And it was so smart in the way he attacked and the way he kept guys off balance, including Wemby. A couple of times at the rim where he'd start, stop, and Wemby would bump him and then couldn't. Couldn't gather to jump to go get it. And Brunson would just extend because he's not jumping very high and he's six two and he's just laying the ball in wherever he wants and shooting mid Rangers like it was nothing. It was amazing. Amazing. Amazing to watch a guy with that kind of composure as a scorer against that level defender when he's not blowing by you or going over you in any way.
- [75:36]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. You know, so a Bucks fan friend of mine was like, well, you mentioned, you said Brunson had one of the greatest finals performances. Like, why didn't you mention Giannis five years ago? And Giannis had that 50 point game in the closeout, which was a great game. The difference with what Brunson did in game four and Game five was the inevitability that you could feel with the scoring. I was texting Nick Franz, like, here comes Brunson. This is it. He's going to score. He's going to go on a heater right now. And the spurs, by game five, I feel like they kind of knew it too. And he broke their will in a different way that's like that. You know, he's obviously not Michael Jordan, but there's very few players over the years that got that to that break your will level. And I do feel like he fucked with the Spurs. Like it was just over and over again. Oh, you fucked up again. We're only down seven with eight minutes left. I'm going to score the next nine. Like, it's just worth the level he got to. But to do it against that team, I thought. I thought that was one of the most amazing things I've seen in the finals.
- [76:36]
Tim Legler
It's one of the greatest finals performances of all time. I'm not going to waver from that. And it's because of, again, what was in front of him. And as good as it might have looked to a lot of people on tv, like, in terms of the pressure on him with these defenders. Yeah, trust me, trust me, sitting there watching it, to watch guys that big and physical and the game was so physical and they're quicker than him, they're gonna beat him to spots and they're taller than him and they're stronger, and he just did whatever he wanted to do. And it was mind blowing in the moment to be able to call that and to watch like, that level of greatness when you look at like the physical profile of the player. And it's all just. It's all just strength and balance and footwork and touch and iq. And then the final component, which is really what separates him, what he is processing in the feeling in terms of pressure of the moment. It's not what other people are processing. He doesn't feel actually, in some ways, it actually increases his adrenaline in a good way in those moments. And there's been a lot of guys, obviously, over the course of the history of the league that also kind of fall into that category. But in this series, it stood out so much from everyone else. That he wasn't feeling what everybody else was feeling with this energy in these two buildings. And it was like the force and physicality of the defenses. And he's just like, no, I'm just going to kind of do my thing. And I know where I'm going to end up at the end of this possession. It'll be in a place that I like.
- [78:07]
Bill Simmons
Not to mention, he's carrying six generations of Knicks fans and 53 years of history. And just.
- [78:13]
Tim Legler
I got a great and, like, 35 former players, like, at every game. It was like, incredible, man.
- [78:19]
Bill Simmons
I got a great email from a listener who was saying that it was almost like watching. When they would talk about Prefontaine, Steve Prefontaine, the runner, how he would hang behind, hang behind, and then he would make his move, and everybody knew he was going to make his move, and he would just kind of wait. He'd let everybody run himself out like, okay, now I'm going to do it. And then everybody he was running against would know that he was doing it and he would still do it. And that's where the Knicks got with these comebacks like they were. I've never seen a team more comfortable down 10, down 12, where you never felt like the game was going to get away from them. Usually when you're down 12 in the third quarter, you're like, fuck, we give up one more three. Like this. This game's a wrap. The Knicks kind of liked it, and they. They like this come from behind thing where you could feel the momentum shift. And then, you know, we. We talked about Fox earlier, but the spurs not having that settle down guy. Um, it just wasn't, you know, obviously Wemby's not there yet. They just didn't have that one guy like, I got this, guys, I got this. They didn't have it.
- [79:22]
Tim Legler
That was my point on top of what you just said, which is so true about the comfortability factor for the Knicks. And part of that was because they were observing the uncomfortability factor on the other side in those moments because they didn't have a clear defined identity offensively, either individually or collectively. And part of it is because there's. There's. These guys are growing as players, there are holes in their games. And I think I said a lot about it the other day on our All City pod, and I believe it. I think the biggest area of growth for Wemby is going to be. Answer that going into next season. And how do you answer that? You answer that by dominating from 15 to 20ft. That's the area of the floor that he doesn't really yet know how to fully utilize his shooting ability and length. And it's in a simple jab step. A Dirk Nowitzki type of closing ability from that area of the floor. It's also hard to double team him from that area of the floor. He could play one dribble. He's at the rim from the top of the key. Easily with his length. But he doesn't really go there and catch the ball. He either runs to the rim or he pops back behind the three. Those are the two things he does. He doesn't really screen. Short roll. And they hit him there. Not to mention, he's such an easy target to hit on that short roll. Because you could throw it high. He could just catch it up here. Even if there's traffic for the guard. Just throw it up. He'll catch it. And now he's got it one on one. Give him some room. One strong side shooter. And now let him practice that jab and get guys off him just a little bit. Boom. Make four or five of those jumpers. A game coupled swing through and goes. And I think the game will be easier for him. Because he didn't know really where to go in those game defining series, defining championships.
- [81:01]
Bill Simmons
He was 30ft from the basket. Running pick and rolls on fox. Yeah. Well, I always thought that Duncan spot. That's where he has to figure out. Like 12ft to the side. Pick a side, give your bank shot. You can swoop into the paint. Do the Dr. J.
- [81:17]
Tim Legler
Agreed.
- [81:18]
Bill Simmons
You're a lob threat from the side. Like that's what he's got to figure out. He doesn't have a spot.
- [81:22]
Tim Legler
Yeah.
- [81:22]
Bill Simmons
And I don't. It bothers me that he doesn't have a jump hook either. I don't know why he doesn't have a little.
- [81:27]
Tim Legler
Yeah. I mean, when's the last good reliable jump hook we've seen? I gave up when. When I would see seven footers come into the league with some skill. And I'm like, how do you not practice? Like a two dribble to the middle jump hook over either shoulder.
- [81:42]
Bill Simmons
Al Jefferson.
- [81:43]
Tim Legler
Because it's damn near unstoppable. Al Jefferson had a great moment. Even his was more almost like a.
- [81:47]
Bill Simmons
It was like a little push run.
- [81:49]
Tim Legler
Full body. It was a push. Right. Because his shoulders were square to the rim.
- [81:52]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [81:53]
Tim Legler
Yao Ming had a decent little jump hook. Yao Ming was. Was like he. He kind of mastered that.
- [81:57]
Bill Simmons
Duncan had one.
- [81:58]
Tim Legler
Not to the extent that you would think guys would. And I think for, for Wemby, I think that that's not bad man, because you could, you know, look at some of the distances that Kareem shot him from. Like it doesn't have to be a five foot shot. He might have a hard time getting guys that deep. So okay, what if it's an 8, 9, 10 foot shot and it looks smooth and you practice it enough, who's stopping it? So I agree, look, and I think this is what really to me separated the two teams. The Knicks going into game five, I said had the most precarious 31 lead in the history of team sports because they had been outscored 70% of the minutes in the series. Everything had gone right in these key moments that had to Senna, Harry yardis, they're up 3:1 but man, it could easily been 3:1 the other way. We all know that the difference in this series was how these two teams managed the last 5, 6 minutes of the game. Burners were kind of looking around like what are we going to do this time down the floor because all their best players have a little bit of a hole in the game. Too young, not a good enough shooter. Maybe if you're Castle Wemmy we just talked about doesn't get those spots of the floor that are comfortable for him enough. Guess what? Best learning lesson, losing that series. That's, that's the best thing that could happen to them for long term success here in the foreseeable future because they're going to remember how that felt and they're going to address that exact situation.
- [83:18]
Bill Simmons
I 100% agree. And yet they're going to look back. I mean that's one of the all time squandered series.
- [83:24]
Tim Legler
No, no, no doubt.
- [83:25]
Bill Simmons
I haven't forgotten. So many things happened in those five games. So many things happened. I forgot that, that Wemby missed an 18 footer just to win game one. That was a pretty open shot. You just go through that clean. Look, if you're a Spurs fan you're just torturing yourself going all even like that shot.
- [83:44]
Tim Legler
I said, you know, like even that they ran good action. He, they ran. It was him and Fox, Fox came off. They, it was. They knew exactly what they wanted to get. High ball screen. They knew, they knew you're going to have to give some sort of help or what or Fox is going to walk into an 18 footer to win the game. So they, you knew the big was going to shade which meant it's going right back to. Wemby at the umpire. But the only thing I don't understand is this. And Mitchell Robinson, they got a lot of credit for his contest. I don't really think it affected him. But why did you.
- [84:13]
Bill Simmons
Why.
- [84:13]
Tim Legler
Why fall down backwards like you're shooting a shot to win the game, Right? Stay on your feet and stay with your extension. Because he went.
- [84:24]
Bill Simmons
Michael Jordan,
- [84:27]
Anthony de Bundo
just.
- [84:27]
Tim Legler
Just stay with nothing else. Stay upright to give the ball the best chance to get over the front of the rim. Your momentum going back to that extent that you can't even stay upright. Of course the ball is going to. It's impossible to track that to the center of the rim. So that's even that again, it's youth. It's young. It's going through it for the first time. You know, figure out a way next time in that situation, stay on your feet and shoot an 18 footer, because there's not a person on the planet that's going to really bother you on that contest if you stay upright.
- [84:57]
Bill Simmons
Well, he asked us to figure out how to play more than 29 minutes a game, because I think. True that. 10 weeks. Now he knows. Now he knows what that 10 weeks feels like from start to finish. And I just thought there were a couple of those fourth quarters where he was just wobbling around. He made, obviously, the huge mental mistake at the end of game two. And it's all part of the process. He's going to have to figure out how do I ramp up to 37, 38 in the playoffs? And that's it.
- [85:24]
Tim Legler
Game two. You know, that's not. You learn, learn. They got to learn from it. They didn't know exactly what they wanted to do. Castle looks at him and then goes, oh, oh, you're going to bring it up. Okay, I'm out of here. And they all hit. No, wait, it's him in the back. It's just because it was like they weren't completely in sync because they're so young.
- [85:39]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [85:40]
Tim Legler
Collectively don't bet on young teams.
- [85:42]
Bill Simmons
Now we know again, this is what we said all year. They're too young. They haven't been there. It's like.
- [85:48]
Tim Legler
And here's the thing, it's what's scary for, like, maybe the league is just the fact that, okay, yeah, they lost one series, but, like, nothing will expedite their learning curve like that. Nothing. No way their season could have ended any of. Even losing game seven at Oklahoma City is not coming close to expediting the learning curve with the way they navigated the ends of those games. And knowing how tight they were, the margin for error was so, so slim. And the Knicks were making all the plays. They weren't making any of them. Nothing will expedite their growth more than the way that their season ended.
- [86:21]
Bill Simmons
Before we go, where do you want Giannis to go?
- [86:25]
Tim Legler
Man, probably Golden State would be like,
- [86:30]
Bill Simmons
you know, hey, man, Golden State. Are they even in this?
- [86:33]
Tim Legler
I don't know, but I. They. They always came up for Yanis over the last, you know, two years, and it was like, you'd love to see Curry get something of that level here at the end of his career. That's why I said that. That's more like, from just my heart standpoint, because I love watching Steph Curry so much, and I want a potential for, like, deeper playoff runs for him not playing stuff where he's gone in a game or two, or even if they make it out of that, what are they facing? A buzz saw. So more help for him to give Steph Curry a greater chance to have meaningful series and playoff moments at the end of his career.
- [87:13]
Bill Simmons
I like that. My guess is they end up with Anthony Davis, Golden State. I don't know why. It's just in the back of my head, I've landed on. I don't want the Celtics to trade Jaylen Brown for Giannis, which I felt that way the whole month. But the more I just. I can't. I can't. Can't get there. I also don't think Miami. I don't like to trade for Milwaukee or Miami. That trade that everybody's been batting around, I actually don't like it for either team. If I'm trading Giannis, I don't like what I'm getting back. I'm not getting one thing I can point at. And if I'm Miami, I've traded all this stuff away so I can have Giannis and bam. And I don't know where I'm going with that. Can I even win one playoff round? Not to mention be honest, like, how many more years? The thing that scares me is just how many more years can he be elite when he's already been banged up?
- [88:07]
Tim Legler
And let me ask you a question. What percentage of the people that love the Celtics, right. Fans would agree with what you just said about your cool not getting him because you would rather go with Jalen Brown.
- [88:19]
Bill Simmons
People like the Jays, the only. I would say it's probably like, three, four Celtic fans would probably rather just not do anything and run it back with hell. Okay, here's the problem, and here's the question, and I don't. The Celtics are gonna have to evaluate this. You had Jalen get a taste of being the guy, and now he has to go back to not being the guy. And once you have the taste of being the guy, can you go back? I think that would be the fear, and maybe he just wants his own team. He hasn't said anything. The Celtics haven't said anything. And I. I would much rather see those guys keep playing together. I don't even like that Clay's not on Golden State anymore. Like, even that. I wish Clay and Draymond and Steph had just managed to. I know why they didn't, and I know it got acrimonious, but it's so rare for teams to stay together, you know?
- [89:08]
Tim Legler
I hear you, man. I hear you. Like, they keep. They have it, and they. They're winning and they're fun to watch. And like, us, you know, guys like us that are watching this and analyzing it and have to do this every night and watch these teams. Like, you guys, like, are you a fan of the group? The style, like, whatever. And it's like, there's more There. There's more meat on the bone. Yeah, there. Like, why. Why are we. Why are we ending this now? I think for. For me, with the Jalen Brown stuff, I think it's a.
- [89:30]
Bill Simmons
It's.
- [89:30]
Tim Legler
It's a good point. I mean, and this is kind of how I felt during the year. Just for me was probably how I would process it. If I were good enough to be Jaylen Brown. I went through. That would be. Yeah. You know what? Bottom line is, man, Like, I got called. I got. I slid over one seat, and that's what it looks like. But there's a hell of a lot. There's a hell of a lot that comes with that seat. So, like, now, okay, he goes back and it's. It's. You know, obviously, I don't think anybody's gonna deny it's more like Tatum's, you know, the guy. Jaylen Brown's a great, great player. But at the same time, he's like, okay, listen, I rang the bell, man. I validated what my ceiling is, what I believe it is. And. But it's okay here to be, like, 1A next to Jayson Tatum, too, because Tatum's going to get, ultimately, most of that playoff pressure is more on his shoulders than anybody else. And so I do wonder how Jaylen Brown feels about all that. Is it like. He's like, no, no. Hell with that. I don't Ever want to go back? I want a team of my own. I know what I'm capable of doing, and nothing's ever going to satisfy him again. Or is it.
- [90:32]
Anthony de Bundo
No.
- [90:32]
Tim Legler
I like playing here. I like Boston. I like Jayson Tatum. I showed what I could do when given the chance. That's good enough for me.
- [90:39]
Bill Simmons
If they were going to trade him, Milwaukee would not be my Jalen trade. I would be looking at New Orleans or Atlanta and trying to, you know, especially New Orleans. That's a trade that makes sense in my head. Where you get. Get Trey Murphy back, Herb Jones, one more contract, maybe you get a pick, but, you know, you're recreating basically a different version of what you had with Tatum and Brown, but your contracts are a little better and you. You get more flexibility. Like, I'd be thinking that way. I'd. To me, I don't. Do they win the title if they get Giannis? I just. I don't know if that's the magic elixir, and I don't know physically where he is, you know?
- [91:15]
Tim Legler
Yeah, I would look at it if I were Boston like this, the way that the. Look, the Knicks jumped on it, and they played incredible basketball at the end of the year, and they peaked at the right time. But you still have to go back and you have to be honest and just look at the Eastern Conference like, the path was cleared for them with the injury to Tatum. And, you know, that was like trying to figure that out late in the year. Know how Liberton obviously had Pacers, went there a year ago. Detroit doesn't have enough shooting yet. The Pistons, the Cavs are a team that's got, you know, they've got issues in the postseason, like handling that pressure. Phillies hurt all the time. So if I'm Boston, I'm just looking at it like, yeah, okay, the Knicks, to me, I've seen a lot of lists out there where they put OKC, San Antonio 1, 2. Again, in terms of league expectations to win it. Boston three, next four. I mean, to me, the Knicks have every. Have the. Have the case to be made that they're going to run it back and win the Eastern Conference. I think they can absolutely make that case. But if I'm Boston, I'm not sitting here looking at any teams in the east and going as currently constructed without the Giannis trade. Like, we can't hang with those guys. So I think. I think that's why the comfort zone comes from fans. We know what this looks like, and it's pretty damn close. And now we get Tatum for an entire year coming off the injury rather than just a partial year. Yeah, we'll take our chances of that. Of course, you need to improve your roster. They're going to need to improve, and we'll see what they do.
- [92:39]
Bill Simmons
They have a $27 million trade exception. They have some tradable smaller pieces. Like, they'll be better than they were last year. Last year was. They always called it the quote unquote gap year, but in some ways it was. They got rid of Porzingis and Simons,
- [92:52]
Tim Legler
putting the Knicks as the favorite right now to win the Eastern Cup.
- [92:55]
Bill Simmons
You should.
- [92:55]
Tim Legler
I'm putting Knicks as. Yeah, I mean, but it's amazing. I'm looking at some stuff that's written out there. They're not doing that. I'm like, I don't get it, man. The way that they just played and, like, that last series was a grind it out. They fell behind, but they still found ways to win. But prior to that, like, they were playing damn near perfect basketball. And they end up winning A championship in five games against the team that won 62. With that kind of young talent, like, for me, the Knicks should be the team that's placed at the top of the pecking order and Eastern Conference going into the season. Now let's see what these other teams do to address their needs.
- [93:29]
Anthony de Bundo
Awesome.
- [93:30]
Tim Legler
And close that gap.
- [93:31]
Bill Simmons
Brunson's the best player in the conference. He is. It wasn't just, oh, I had this great postseason. He's done this four years in a row now. He's averaging 29 points a game for four straight playoffs. Like, this is who he is. They have a team built around him. The only thing I would worry about with the Knicks is, you know, Pat Riley called it the disease of more. Everybody's super unselfish. When you're trying to win a title, you're doing everything. You put your ego aside. But now you won Doc Rivers. I had Doc Rivers on the pod the other day, and he called it trophy tour syndrome. You get your trophy for the day, you go back home every day with all your people, and then you come back the next year and you're like, all right, now it's my time. And that's usually what happens with this with championship. And that would be the fear.
- [94:16]
Tim Legler
I'm going to tell you, though, I'm going to tell you, I don't think that. I don't think that's the makeup of this group of guys. And I've got to spend a lot of time around them covering them, you know, all the way through the playoffs basically and then certainly the finals. They just look like they're perfectly in sync with where they're slotted, where they're slotted, each guy and what they require to be and then perfectly fine with this other incredibly special player that they have settling things and we'll contribute to that heavily and in some nights be one guy more than another. I don't think they're going to have that particular problem with this group. I just don't think that's the makeup of this team.
- [94:55]
Bill Simmons
I think you're right, but I'm not positive because this is the league we have. They also they're not going to be able to pay Mitch, I don't think. Dolan basically said he's not going second.
- [95:06]
Tim Legler
Doesn't look like it.
- [95:06]
Bill Simmons
So Mitch is out. They're going to have to luck out with the 24th pick, get some sort of big man who but small problems. All right, Tim Legler, have fun at the draft. I'm excited for your player comps. Just rip them off like boom, boom, player comp, boom, player comp. Good to see you. Always a pleasure. Thanks for spending the season with us.
- [95:25]
Tim Legler
Let's, let's catch up when the smoke clears from the draft and free agency and see where everything's settled and all those trades. Take play, all that stuff.
- [95:32]
Bill Simmons
Can't wait. Connect all right, take care, man.
- [95:34]
Tim Legler
You got it. See you, Bill.
- [95:36]
Bill Simmons
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- [97:09]
Bill Simmons
tremphyaradio.com all right, so we're recording this. It is Thursday afternoon, Pacific time. There's still some World cup games happening tonight, but we only care about the one by the time people hear this Friday, America, who looked awesome, really, truly awesome in the first match, and now Australia on Friday. It's a holiday. It's going to be a great day. Anthony de Bundo came on a couple weeks ago and he reminded us. I was skeptical. I wasn't that excited about our chances. And you reminded us, hey, we haven't really been healthy in four years. Like, we have our guys. Like, there, there is a path here. So you're watching that first half. What are you thinking?
- [97:51]
Anthony de Bundo
I didn't think it would go that well. I don't think even the most optimistic US Fan in the world thought that it would go as well. As dominant as the first half was, they made it look so easy. This is a. This is a country that usually struggles with Trinidad, that usually has had issues beating Panama over the last few years, and they're just washing away a pretty good South American team. So, I mean, it was the most exciting I've ever been. It was my first ever time going to a World cup game. First time ever seeing the U.S. score a goal in person. Like, amazing, amazing stuff.
- [98:20]
Bill Simmons
All the 1v1 stuff. A striker just like creating holy shit goals and then actually finishing the kick. It was. It was unbelievable. And even Raina comes in at the end, right? The guy from, from a few years ago where he became the polarizing, like, he became the big argument guy that did the documentary. It was barely covered. Um, but even he had a moment and he might have to have a moment in this Australia game because of course, we can't have good things for that long. Pulisic is. Who knows? When I see the training by myself story, that makes me nervous. But he was so good in that first half. We thought they took him out because they didn't want him to get hurt in the second half.
- [99:03]
Anthony de Bundo
That's what I thought, too.
- [99:04]
Bill Simmons
You assume Paraguay would be doing the. Okay, we're down three nothing. We're. We're going to Start taking your guys out. But it turned out he was, he was maybe a little hurt. So what do you, what are you thinking or how worried are you?
- [99:15]
Anthony de Bundo
I'm definitely worried. I mean, there are only one or two players that the US can't truly replace and he's one of them. And it's funny because I was thinking today, okay, so if he doesn't start, who are the guys that replace him? And there is no like for like, I mean, in a perfect world, Gio Reyna can do a lot of the things. But Giorna has barely played soccer for the last three years. And he has had some good moments for the US Men's national team. Like that last minute goal. But expecting him to just walk in and replace what Pulisic has done is just not realistic. Then it's like, well, maybe it's Burhalter and they play a little more defensive. That's going to be divisive. Maybe it's Aaronson and they go for the pressing. He's not very creative. So like all of a sudden, all the excitement. They don't really need Pulisic though, for this specific game they do. But for the tournament, like, this is not their most important game anymore. They need to shift expectations and realize that the later on games are what we really are playing for here.
- [100:16]
Bill Simmons
Well, you know, so they're going to probably do the park the bus a little bit. Right. Do some counters.
- [100:22]
Anthony de Bundo
Australia.
- [100:22]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Try to, try to do the 1 nothing final. Try to rope us. And that's what they're. Their first win was like that they didn't have the ball a ton. But when they did have the ball, they made stuff happen. So that would be the recipe. You also have Seattle, a great soccer city. Everyone's going to be so fired up. It's a holiday. There's so many good things about this game. And I don't know, I've just seen soccer games like this where it's like, oh my God, we've had the ball. Oh, oh no. What's happening? Oh my God. What did you think of Australia when you watched them that first game?
- [100:54]
Anthony de Bundo
Yeah, I mean, it's a classic example of like, does this say more about Australia or more about Turkey? I mean, they sat very deep in a very compact block and just made Turkey send in prayer after prayer after prayer, cross after cross. Long range, I mean, you know, Turkey has a superstar player, Arta Guler, who attempted seven shots, all of them from long range. None of them had a chance. They were really frustrating and really effective defensively and in this system, in this tournament, those kind of teams can be really freaking annoying to play against. But I do think the US what they showed against Paraguay shows me that they have new ideas for how to break down this system. But it is so reliant on Pulisic, on his ability to retain the ball in dangerous areas. His ability to keep possession in the penalty area has always been his best skill. And now it's like, well, without him, who's going to be the man that beats the man? Is it Dest? Are they going to start Tim Waya? Is it just Baligan kind of like muscling his way through Australians because they're a big bunch in the back too.
- [101:54]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, Pulsek was so good in that first half, it almost seemed like we were gonna get the rare first half sub for their right back. Like, we gotta get this guy out of here, he's getting torched. And then he wasn't out there in the second half. So the, the two guys that make me nervous on our team, Dest, I just, I wish there was like slightly more there. I don't know, I felt like there was a lot on the table for him in the game I went to. And then Reem's 38. Like Australia has a 20 year old flyer who's who had a goal in their first game. And I just, I just can't imagine that's not going to rear its ugly head at some point during the Cup. The fact that we feel like we're like a great defender short, right?
- [102:34]
Anthony de Bundo
Probably, yes. And I think that's the big question that like Paraguay and maybe even Australia aren't going to test is like Tim Ream, for all of his, you know, now faults as a defender, is still very good at picking passes out going forward. If you just let him stand there on the ball and ping passes all over. And he had seven long completions in the match against Paraguay, which is nuts. Australia will probably do a better job of marking Tim Ream. They'll probably do a better job of oppressing him a little bit better. Teams will do a better job of that. That's where it's like, okay, can Tim Ream hold up when teams start to press more? That's going to be kind of the stress test that like Paraguay just really never gave to the defense. I mean, they scored one goal off a set piece, but there was at no point any stress on this defense. So that's the big question mark. But you know, I think that's why they're playing A back three. It's the idea that if you put two really athletic dudes and Richards and Freeman, who cover a lot of ground and who are super smart guys next to Reem, you kind of COVID for him as much as possible.
- [103:36]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [103:36]
Anthony de Bundo
You know, and so you hide him. And then, you know, Jess is a funny guy, because I love Sergino Dess. I get why he's easy to be like, he's always in dangerous areas and he often screws it up. But the fact that he's always in dangerous areas means you just cannot forget about him, because he will show up in a big moment and create a chance or dribble past a guy. And he really did dribble past players a lot in that game Friday night. It just. The final touch was rough. It was rough.
- [104:03]
Bill Simmons
Well, the big question was, what were we getting from Richards? And he was awesome in that game.
- [104:07]
Anthony de Bundo
Amazing.
- [104:07]
Bill Simmons
And he passed. Basically, he passed all the injury concerns that we had heading into the cup right to Pulse, where it was, because I. Did you see that, that stat? Like, he. What did he complete? 83 of 83. Yeah, he threw the soccer defender, perfect game. You never see that very often. But he also. He's such a badass. The way he carries himself. It's really funny. He carries himself like. He's like a Ravens linebacker or something.
- [104:32]
Anthony de Bundo
And he does have a header on a set piece, too, that came close to scoring. I mean, he is such a. I mean, like, we talk about, you know, the classic example of, like, what does it look like when the Americans are finally developing bigger and better talent and, like having a center back who starts every week on a good Premier League team, just ho hum, goes about his business. Nothing flashy like that. Those kind of players are what it's not about having all the superstars in Europe. It's about having more of Chris Richards, right? Like three more Chris Richards across the line. And that's, you know, that's the perfect example.
- [105:04]
Bill Simmons
Well, it's almost like when, like preparing for the NBA draft right now, doing my whole process, and over and over again, you come to the same conclusion, like four days before, where you're like, you know, it's really nice, like swingman who can defend and hit threes.
- [105:17]
Anthony de Bundo
Yeah.
- [105:17]
Bill Simmons
It's just OG Anuno. You can't really go wrong with that. So, like Merez Johnson now the Michigan guy, and he's like, oh, he might go 15, 14, like, wherever he goes, somebody's going to be super happy with him because that's just the kind of guy that plays and it's the same plug and play. There are these certain guys. With that said, Jedi is probably. He's another one that when you in person, really feels like the atypical American, just like fucking freak athlete flying.
- [105:42]
Anthony de Bundo
He's everywhere. He's. I mean, like, I know the running joke is like a lot of these guys were not developed in the U.S. baligan, Robinson, Tillman, you know, like a lot of these guys were not quote unquote, traditional homegrown players. And we could do a whole podcast on that. But like Jedi in the Premier League is consistently one of the most active, aggressive, all over the place defenders on that left wing. I remember they played Liverpool like two years ago and he completely shut down like a prime mo Salah and I was like, what am I watching?
- [106:12]
Bill Simmons
Like, this is, this is crazy.
- [106:14]
Anthony de Bundo
And then he also had 10 assists that year. I mean, he, he is, he's a special player and I think he'll be important because inevitably they're going to need more wide production if they don't have Pulisic in the middle. So Robinson and Dest become even more important than they were in the first match.
- [106:28]
Bill Simmons
And then the striker might be the most talented striker we've ever had. And I like Clint Dempsey, I think was really reliable. Good. I loved how tough he was. And he, I thought was really important just for where U.S. soccer was and where it was trying to go. But this guy's absolutely. This is different.
- [106:44]
Anthony de Bundo
It's different. It's amazing. And you know, the one thing with him has always been. And I remember, you know, when I first joined the ringer Bill, we did the Copa America, remember two summers ago when we were a disaster and Baligan only played like half the minutes because he got hurt. And even you texting our group chat like, watch how he's moving. It's so different from how the other guys are moving around the pitch. And that's how you feel when you watch him. And no matter what his finishing has always been, he's always had the shots. And the analytics nerds and the scouts will always say, if you get the shots, we'll worry about the finishing later. Just get the shots. And his shot numbers have been amazing in France and now he's carrying that into, into the US and two goals. I think he had four shots in the first game. So just amazing.
- [107:27]
Bill Simmons
Well, like you, I'm. All I've been doing is watching World Cup. I love it. I, I love gambling on it. I just love that there was that one game the other night that was on it, like, midnight Pacific time. That was amazing. What was it, Jordan, Austria or Austria Austria.
- [107:41]
Anthony de Bundo
Jordan.
- [107:41]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, it's all classic. It was a really good game, though, for how late at night it was, but. And you're just watching all these different guys, and the ones that jump out over and over again are like, the left or right back that's just fucking flying up and down constantly and never gets tired, or like the forward who he's just kind of hanging around. Then all of a sudden, he's got that stop, start, boom. And that's what Balgan has. He's kind of lurking, looking. Boom, he's off. And then on top of everything else, you get to watch what Messi did the other night. And it's like, oh, yeah, that's. And that's the other version of the sport where he's just levitating above everybody. I mean, that was one of the great random sports experiences. I certainly wasn't expecting that to be, like, the highlight of the summer, but it was. Even up there with the finals games, that was unbelievable. You talking about Messi, the hat trick? Yeah, just. Just played all the hits.
- [108:34]
Anthony de Bundo
Watching his son,
- [108:37]
Bill Simmons
he played my daughter whenever, you know, my daughter was always a striker. And we always had this joke called. It was called Rufus goals, because our dog rufus, who died 10 years ago. But if you put food on the counter, if you left it for two seconds, he would just kind of sneak over and grab it and go. And so we always talk the same with soccer. Like, the best strikers or best forwards, best anything, they're always in the position to just kind of jump on the counter and grab a goal. And that second goal he had was my favorite one of the three, because he's just kind of over there. He's reading. Oh, this might be a rebound bounce. And he's already moving to where the bounce is, and nobody's even reacting yet, and he's just putting it in. It's like the easiest goal we had. But he's just a second and a half ahead of where everyone else is mentally.
- [109:25]
Anthony de Bundo
And that's despite the fact that he just. It's so funny when they don't have the ball, right? When you watch him and you see him in the corner of the screen, and he's just walking around like it's a Sunday men's league. Like, he's just trying to get his steps in, and then the minute he
- [109:37]
Bill Simmons
gets the ball, but he's calculating everything.
- [109:38]
Anthony de Bundo
He makes two little runs, one little dart, one dribble, one shot. And you're like, oh, shit. I mean, Argentina, in the first 28 minutes of that match did not have a touch in the penalty area of Algeria, but they were up 1 nil. Because Messi's like, I don't need to go in the penalty area. I'll score from 25 yards out. Screw that.
- [109:56]
Bill Simmons
Why bother with that? And on top of it, like, the.
- [109:59]
Anthony de Bundo
That.
- [110:00]
Bill Simmons
I mean, the thing that makes the guys truly, truly great, no matter what sport you're talking about, is like, it's performance, but also, like, performance. That's the artistry of it. It's all these people in Kansas City, it's Mahomes in the luxury suite, and they're all there to see him, right? And that's like, almost drives him up to make him greater. Whereas, like, poor Ronaldo, he's out there. And you. You called it on the pod. We did before the cup started. But it's like, yeah, this is Aaron Rodgers, Pittsburgh kind of territory, potentially. And it was worse than that. Cause he. He cost them the game. I mean, he. He had, I felt like, opportunities that normal people would make at this level, and he just didn't cash in on any of them.
- [110:39]
Anthony de Bundo
It's so funny because you. A lot of the people that are trying to defend Ronaldo are saying, well, it's not just his fault, right? The performance was bad all around. And like, their wingers have problems. Portugal has issues. But it's like what you said, the best strikers always find ways to get shots, to get space, to make those little runs, those little movements where they can get separation and get shots off. That's just always been true. And that wasn't the case for Ronaldo yesterday against Congo. He was never able to separate. He's not running in behind, he's not coming short. He's not linking the play. It's like, hopefully the cross finds his head, because they had a lot of the ballot with it. But I mean, you know, a couple of days ago, when. When Mbappe scores twice and Holland scores twice and Messi scores three times, all in one day. And then, like you said, we get the. The Austria Jordan, midnight. I mean, it's one of the greatest days for stars in the history of
- [111:32]
Bill Simmons
the World cup, right?
- [111:33]
Anthony de Bundo
We get four games every day, and then pretty soon it's going to be six games a day for a few days.
- [111:37]
Bill Simmons
And you didn't even mention the England game. Kane was incredible in that game, doing these 40 yard fucking dart passes. I got to watch that one with cr. We were enjoying it. And then and the corner kicks for England. I mean, I know that was. The guy was on Arsenal. That was one of their calling cards. But, um, nothing, nothing really floats my boat. Like, just a great corner kick right in the right.
- [111:59]
Anthony de Bundo
A routine they ran, a pick and roll.
- [112:01]
Bill Simmons
Fucking boom. And the guys are wide open over and over again somehow. And it's the most underrated part of this, but there's no other what else is like this. It's almost like maybe special teams in football, where Belichick was trying to get, like, advantage with special teams. And it's this thing that it's like, oh, yeah, and you should be good at special teams. And he's like, no, actually, we're going to, like, flip games with special teams. That was one of the biggest reasons the 01 Patriots won. And these corner kicks, free kicks, you see it over and over again, the World cup, like, putting the ball in the box, in the right areas and
- [112:31]
Anthony de Bundo
doing the little boxing out the keeper. Yeah, it was John Stones, literally set up. If you go watch the replay that goal. John Stones is setting what would be called a moving screen for the NBA just so he can get Cane free a little bit. And all he needs is a couple yards. One header, two, one. It's so funny because I watched with the Fozcast guys, Ben Foster, and they're awesome. And getting into the psyche of the English fan. I mean, you were with cr, so how is CR Feeling before the match?
- [112:57]
Bill Simmons
Confident. He's a little worried about the back three, but they have a lot of firepower. They do. They really do. They have all kinds of ways that they can create goals and they're really fun to watch. I think if you're an England fan, it's weird to watch this team that can be kind of explosive, but they feel a little bit explosive. Right?
- [113:16]
Anthony de Bundo
So with the Fozcast guys, none of them were that confident. I talked to a random England fan outside of Sofi, he was like, yeah, you know, I think we can make the semis. I'm like, you don't think you can win? He goes, no. Like English fans, I think more than maybe any other fan base. And maybe because they've been, you know, so close yet so far, they just don't have the same level of irrational optimism about their team. So a lot of nervous energy. And then Kane misses the penalty and they're all like, oh, shit, here we go again. Like, this is how it's going to go.
- [113:44]
Bill Simmons
The rarely seen callback. They nailed the goalkeeper. It never happens.
- [113:49]
Anthony de Bundo
He was about a half of A toe off the line, nothing. You can't get away with anything anymore. And then in the second half, they went for it. I mean, England fans have been crying out for this. They have so much talent and they play scared under Gareth Southgate. It's all like, defend the lead, defend the lead, defend the lead. And Tuchel went in the halftime and said, eff it. Like, we're going for this. What do we have to lose? And they came out and played an incredible second half. So I think England has vaulted themselves into the favorites conversation if they weren't already there. And I think, you know them, Spain and France are still a tier above, but maybe, maybe USA should be in that second tier. I don't know.
- [114:22]
Bill Simmons
One thing they did, England that I loved. I love the hockey line change for the forwards. It's one of my favorites. You can't do it if it's like a Premier League team, probably, but if it's the World cup and you have a deep roster and a bunch of awesome guys, it's just kind of fun. Like, hey, we're going. You guys go all out. 20 last 20 minutes of the game, and. And they were able to get one, but that was fun. Who was the best team? What's weird about the World cup is, like, Paraguay might actually be good. We just got to go early on them, right? And their whole strategy is like, you know, they want it to be 00 after 70 minutes, and. And all of a sudden they're on their heel. All of a sudden, it's two nothing. And, like, their games blown up. I don't know if they're good or not. So we. We've only seen, you know, 90 minutes of each of these teams. But who really jumped out to you?
- [115:08]
Anthony de Bundo
France. For the last half hour put together, they showed a ceiling that I don't think any team has. And, you know, they made some tactical changes. The first half was embarrassing. They were terrible. They. Michael, Lisa, who is one of the best players in the world, was just kind of standing out on the wing all alone, like, hey, hey, guys, I'm over here. And then the coach was like, all right, let's move you centrally in the second half. Let's get you involved because you're our best passer. And then the whole game changed. I mean, he's dribbling by pass, guys. He makes the pass to Keelian and Bape for the first goal. He just changes the game. And it's like, well, you know, France, you could do this from the first minute. You could play like this. All the time. But Deschamps is like, we like to defend. We don't like to press.
- [115:49]
Bill Simmons
Well, the halftime was funny. Thierry on Ray at halftime was fucking sullen. It's really interesting, these halftime shows with the, you know, they just gravitate toward just famous guys from different countries and, oh, it's great. They're so bitter if it's. If the game's not going well. He almost couldn't talk that he's going to.
- [116:07]
Anthony de Bundo
Zlatan might kill Lalas at the end of the tournament. Like, I don't. I almost, like, I don't usually like to watch, but now I kind of feel like I have to watch because I never know when Zlatan is just going to start throwing haymakers at Lawless. It's been an interesting tournament for the Fox studio crew.
- [116:22]
Bill Simmons
If you watch the body language. And I've been on these shows, like, Zlatan is like, you know, Lawless is here. Zlatan's like this. And it's almost like he's turning his back on him. It's really nuts. He really is, like, seems like he despises him. Who knows?
- [116:39]
Anthony de Bundo
And then Landon makes the comment, right, about how he felt France was. Was, quote, arrogant in the first half, which, you know, I. I thought there were tactical issues more than. Than their. Their effort. And then Lawless tried to back him up and repeat it. And Zlatan has this incredible moment where he's just like. And by the way, it's not arrogance, it's confidence. Confidence. And I'm just like, what is going on? These guys are going to like, this is uncomfortable, but it's also electric at the same time because Zlatan does not give a shit. He doesn't care at all.
- [117:11]
Bill Simmons
Yes. Usually the studio show should feel like people were invited at a dinner to sit at the same table together because you knew the conversation would be good. The Fox studio shows, they feel like it was a dinner where everybody pulled numbers out of a hat. It's like, oh, I'm at table 18. I'm table zones over there. And then. Then there's just like, no chemistry at all at the table because they've never, ever hung out the. The. I had the plus one in that France game with the underdog. I forget all these.
- [117:38]
Anthony de Bundo
Senegal.
- [117:39]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, Senegal. And then they got it. They got the goal. And then in. Bob, like a minute later killed it. But the World cup, there was a day where. What was it? Four draws in a row? It was like, yes, 100,000 bucks. If you bet a hundred Dollars on the, on the parlay.
- [117:55]
Anthony de Bundo
The 2026 Redrawables World cup edition. Yes.
- [117:57]
Bill Simmons
Unbelievable. Yeah, that was fun. Okay.
- [117:59]
Anthony de Bundo
Not all draws are created equal. I mean, Cape Verde drawing Spain. That was so.
- [118:04]
Bill Simmons
I only saw the second half of that game. The guy was levitating over the gold, just blocking shit. He was doing it at dsp.
- [118:12]
Anthony de Bundo
He's up to seven and a half million Instagram followers.
- [118:15]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, that was great.
- [118:16]
Anthony de Bundo
After he had 50,000 before kickoff. He's 40 years old. And then apparently the, the department, the Secretary of State, like they arranged for his mother to get a visa so she can make the trip for the next game so she gets to see him live in my. The World cup is a really cool, really cool thing because these random pop up stories just come out of nowhere and all of a sudden we're like enthralled by it.
- [118:36]
Bill Simmons
Well, the number one thing that happened for people in my life was Scotland taking over Boston in the best possible way. And it was just a week long love fest. Everybody loved them. They were just drinking and walking around and having a great time, basically drinking all the beer out of Boston. And it went so well that they announced there's going to be some sort of partnership between Glasgow and Boston. The Boston Bear announced today, like we're going to actually try to figure out some sort of thing. It was really amazing because Boston's pretty Irish, you know, but that.
- [119:09]
Anthony de Bundo
Pretty Irish.
- [119:10]
Tim Legler
Yeah.
- [119:10]
Bill Simmons
I was going to say I didn't know how the Scots were going to go pretty Irish, but the Scots were like, hey, we love drinking too. And they. And from that moment it was on and they really took over the city. So that, that was really fun. All right, so tournament, we're doing this. It's Thursday. There's two games left today. France is now plus 410 on FanDuel as the favorite. Spain's 5 to 1, England 6 to 1, Argentina's 8 to 1. Portugal's plus 9 50. I'll book that bet myself. Brazil 11 to 1. I didn't think they look great either.
- [119:39]
Anthony de Bundo
Nope.
- [119:39]
Bill Simmons
And then it kind of goes on down. You were, you know, there's a couple of those middle teams like Morocco, I think US is now in that US is down to 40 to 1 that maybe there's more there than what we saw in the first game. But that, that top, top four feels like the four, right. Port France, Spain, England, Argentina. Yep, that would be my four. So if you had to cram one other team into that four, who would it be?
- [120:08]
Anthony de Bundo
Germany.
- [120:09]
Bill Simmons
Okay. Germany's way down there, they're 14 to 1. What'd you like about Germany?
- [120:13]
Anthony de Bundo
So the, the. We didn't learn a ton about Germany when they played Curacao. Right. Germany traditionally is a flat track bully. They like to pummel the teams that are a little bit lesser and they are built to do that. The reason Germany's odds are so low is that if they win their group and France wins their group, they will play each other on the, on the 4th of July in Philly in the round of 16. So we have this clash of two, what I think are top five teams and I would put Brazil and Portugal in the kind of figuring it out phase, potentially playing each other as early as the round of 16. France could then also play semifinals against Spain. So like Germany's path will be very, very difficult and I'm not really sure if their defense is good enough.
- [120:56]
Bill Simmons
We have what's finished second instead of first situation.
- [121:01]
Anthony de Bundo
It is, it is. That's hard to engineer.
- [121:03]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [121:04]
Anthony de Bundo
Because then you don't really know where you're going to end up in the bracket and things get a little bit weirder and like, you know, France is going to play Norway on the final day. So would they tank it? Like, I can't, I can't imagine that. Like, I don't think they're, they're thinking that far ahead. But it would probably be wise to if you were Germany, like, we'll avoid France, thank you very much. But that would be a fascinating matchup. I just don't know if Germany's defense is good enough. It's been their problem for multiple cycles. That's why they haven't made it out of the group stage the last two World Cups. But they have an incredible manager, they have an incredible attacking group. They could score on anybody. They're going to be in the mix.
- [121:38]
Tim Legler
Yeah.
- [121:39]
Bill Simmons
Because us is in this situation where if they finish first.
- [121:42]
Anthony de Bundo
Yep.
- [121:43]
Bill Simmons
They play the runner up from B, E, F, irj. I don't even know what those teams are.
- [121:47]
Anthony de Bundo
But if they finish third place team. Right. Yeah.
- [121:49]
Bill Simmons
If they finish second, they play the runner up of group G, which is Belgium, Egypt, Iran and New Zealand. I mean, that sounds great.
- [122:00]
Anthony de Bundo
Exactly.
- [122:01]
Bill Simmons
I mean, I'd rather finish first, obviously, but that, but even finishing second, that sounds like an ideal situation.
- [122:08]
Anthony de Bundo
So if they come in second though, here's where it gets trickier. You're round of 32 game is probably easier, but then in the round of 16, it's probably Argentina.
- [122:16]
Bill Simmons
Oh, God.
- [122:17]
Anthony de Bundo
So we would prefer to avoid them. If they get first, maybe a little tougher round of 32 because you could. The third place teams, I mean, who knows, it's too early. But the round of 16, you could potentially play Belgium, who showed a lot of cracks in their first game against Iran, so. Or against Egypt rather.
- [122:33]
Tim Legler
So.
- [122:33]
Anthony de Bundo
So you're like, well now we're talking like you get Belgium on home soil revenge for 2014 Chris Wandi revenge game. The Tim Howard ain't walking through that door game and you beat them. Like, I mean, if you put betting odds up right now, I don't think they would be huge underdogs at all. I think they'd be close to a toss up with Belgium.
- [122:52]
Bill Simmons
So if you knew Pulisic was a hundred percent healthy right now and he's obviously not, but if he was, if we were just healthy right now, like what, what's the ceiling for you with how excited you would be to like Final 4, Final 8 level run for this team just off that one game?
- [123:09]
Anthony de Bundo
It's, it's literally how far can we go until we have to play France, Spain, England or Argentina? Like, that's it. It's quite frankly a matter of like, okay, there are levels to this game and the US Is going to need some luck to beat one of those teams. And I don't know if I trust the defense and the goalie enough for that kind of challenge. Right. That's where Paraguay doesn't really test you, so we're going to have to find out. But yeah, like, if they're in the round of 16 against Belgium and they win, why not? And then maybe there's an upset and instead of playing Spain in the quarters, you're playing Uruguay or Colombia. Then it's like, well, we'll take our chances there. So I think it really comes down to the draw. It's too early to say, but in terms of performance alone, it would be hard to not say the US isn't playing in sort of that back end of the top 10 range because the Dutch look just okay. The Belgians looked just okay. Like, none of those teams are jumping
- [123:59]
Bill Simmons
off screen, not at all. On FanDuel USA to make last 16 -2 20 quarters.
- [124:07]
Anthony de Bundo
Did you bet with us last week?
- [124:08]
Bill Simmons
Well, that was the minus 130, right?
- [124:10]
Anthony de Bundo
Yeah.
- [124:11]
Bill Simmons
So that's minus 1 minus 2 20. I didn't, I didn't, I didn't want to have any money on us. I just wanted to enjoy it. I didn't feel like I needed that. But I might actually go in on, on that. If they finish first in the group, that game quarterfinals is plus 180 and semis is plus 550, which is.
- [124:30]
Anthony de Bundo
I mean think about that.
- [124:31]
Bill Simmons
They used to be 12 to 1
- [124:32]
Anthony de Bundo
betting odds are saying we're roughly 37% to make the final eight of the world Cup. It's not that far off my coin toss.
- [124:43]
Bill Simmons
Do you know off top of your head where the last 16 in the quarterfinals games would even be? I guess we wouldn't know because of the groups yet. But is there, is there a way to have any idea?
- [124:53]
Anthony de Bundo
Yeah. So if they win the group, their first knockout game will be in Santa Clara. That would be the first game. And then once they won that they would play in Seattle July 6th. Now we're going. Once they win that Bill, we're very.
- [125:08]
Bill Simmons
I like this. Okay. You're doing the Jalen Brunson.
- [125:11]
Anthony de Bundo
When they win the first round of 32 game, they would go back to Seattle on July 6th for their round of 16 game. If. Now we'll go. If, if they won that, they would be in the quarterfinals July 10th back at SoFi.
- [125:24]
Bill Simmons
So July 6th, Seattle, normally an absolute dead time of the year for sports where all the NBA free agents have signed. Wimbledon is still. We're getting near the end or. Yeah, we're almost at the end with one woman.
- [125:41]
Anthony de Bundo
And holiday weekend.
- [125:43]
Bill Simmons
We're right at the point where we're. We're wondering where all the really fun tennis players went. That's around July 6th. Oh man, I wish we had like two more fun tennis players like Serena and Venus Williams. We talked about that the last time
- [125:56]
Anthony de Bundo
you were on and they were playing doubles.
- [125:59]
Bill Simmons
We're going to see Serena at the US Open. I wish, I wish I was back. I actually would. My wife would want to go to that. We love. We're a big Serena house. So I get together with Schrager.
- [126:11]
Anthony de Bundo
He'll be down.
- [126:12]
Bill Simmons
I'm sure this was before you were born, but the two great moments of. And I used to love tennis, but McEnroe at the Open and Connors at the Open were the two runs where I felt like the crowd just kind of grabbed them and grabbed them by the neck and pulled them through some of the points in the sets. And I. The Serena thing would be the same. The crowd would be. Can you imagine playing against her in the US Open? Like you would have to be one of the best five players in the world locked in. I don't think anyone else would be able to beat her.
- [126:44]
Anthony de Bundo
So I had the luck, the absolute all time luck box of my friends and I decided One year we're going to go in on Friday night tickets on Ash before the draw, before Serena said, this is my. We bought those tickets and it ended up being Serena's last match.
- [126:59]
Bill Simmons
Oh, wow.
- [126:59]
Anthony de Bundo
So we got to go to see her play Isla and like that crowd was the coolest tennis crowd I've ever been a part of. Even when she, you know, when she came back and she won the one set and it was like, holy shit, she's going to win again. Then she loses the third set and it's kind of sad, but like the whole crowd, the euphoria of that night was one of the most special nights I've ever had as a tennis fan. So the fact that we're going to do it again, like four, what is it, four years later?
- [127:26]
Bill Simmons
It's the only thing in tennis you're allowed to do from a non sportsmanship standpoint is if it's a situation like that, if it's the old lion trying to hold on, it's just understood. The crowd just gets to root for them and cheer when you double faulted and all that shit comes into play. Otherwise. Otherwise, no. Well, the USA thing will be amazing. And then you were in New York today for the parade. Just randomly, there you were in the office. You were in like where everything was starting right. Just thinking about the city.
- [127:56]
Anthony de Bundo
I made the mistake of not thinking ahead. I was like, I want to go to New York. I'm going to watch England with the Fozcast guys. I have a couple friends I wanted to see when I was in New York. So I got together with them last night. And then this morning, once I got to the office yesterday, people were talking about the parade and I'm like, oh, where's the parade? They're like, oh, it's coming right down this street. I'm like, you got to be kidding me. Yeah, this is going to be an absolute madhouse tomorrow morning. So I managed to get in and out. I saw parts of it and I was very happy to kind of escape
- [128:26]
Bill Simmons
what was the madhouse on a scale of 1 to 10, like a 9.
- [128:31]
Anthony de Bundo
Like I said, it's not my team, so. Nor were the Eagles, I guess, when they won. But I compared to that in the sense that when the Eagles first won, I was in Syracuse at the time and I was the only one that had a car of my freshman friends from Philly. So I was like, okay, I'll drive home. We drove home at 2 in the morning. We get there at 6:30, 7 o', clock, people are already drinking by 9 o', clock, you can tell people are already drunk and it's just a huge party for, for something that had had been so much time in the waiting. So I'm so happy for all of my Knicks friends. And now I'm back to disliking the Knicks again. Glad they had their moment. Happy for them, was rooting for them. It's over.
- [129:06]
Bill Simmons
It's one of only like maybe 10 excuses to just be hammered at 10 in the morning.
- [129:11]
Tim Legler
Yes.
- [129:11]
Anthony de Bundo
It's very short in New York. It's like the biggiest tournament.
- [129:14]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. And the Knicks football tailgates are great. All right, so give us your USA predictions before we go.
- [129:21]
Anthony de Bundo
I am predicting. Okay, go ahead. No, go Australia for this specific game.
- [129:25]
Bill Simmons
No, just give us what, give us the, give us your updated predictions.
- [129:29]
Anthony de Bundo
Okay. US is going to make the quarterfinals and lose to Spain. That is my official prediction. They are going to win their first two knockout games, get to that quarterfinal and then, you know, maybe water finds its level and they were like, okay, yeah, like there's, there's a gap here. Like their midfield gets a little exposed. Their defense, trying to watch Jedi against Lamina Mall would be really fun, but I think Spain gets past them. So that's my official now prediction. However, like, I think they're going to win the group and a draw tomorrow is not a bad result on Friday. If they get a draw against Australia, they keep control. They stay in first place going into the final match. Ballistic stays healthy. Maybe he gets the night off. That's fine. That's okay. It's not the end of the world. It will kill some momentum, but in the grand scheme of the tournament, it's fine. I'll take it. We move.
- [130:12]
Bill Simmons
All right, Debundo, good to see you. Enjoy the game tomorrow. Have a great weekend.
- [130:16]
Anthony de Bundo
Go usa.
- [130:17]
Bill Simmons
All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Tim Legler. Thanks to Debundo. Thanks to Caho and Eduardo as well. I'm going to be back on Sunday going live on Netflix at some point during the day. I'll tweet out the exact time. Go usa. I'll see you on Sunday.
- [130:35]
Tim Legler
I wanna see them on a. Few years with him.
- [130:53]
Bill Simmons
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Bill Simmons
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Anthony de Bundo
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Bill Simmons
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