← The Bill Simmons Podcast
The Bill Simmons Podcast
NBA Panic Teams, Best QBs Ever, and Sorry Seattle With Rob Mahoney, Chris Russo, and Danny Kelly
02:21:24
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- [00:00]
A
This episode is brought to you by TaxAct. Like an expert coach, TaxAct offers step by step guidance and guaranteed accuracy when filing taxes. Get tips along the way. Add Expert Assist to talk to tax experts and let our experts do your taxes for you. With Expert full service, TaxAct helps you find the deductions and credits you deserve so you can get them over with. Visit taxact.com to learn more. Conditions apply. See taxact.com for details. The Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel Sportsbook we are also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network where I have two rewatchables this week. We put one up already. On Monday night we did Just One of the Guys, a 1980s HBO classic we did with Kyle Brandt and Joanna Robinson. I had a lot of fun. It's been on the list for years. We are moving rewatchables from video from YouTube to Netflix next week. You will still be able to watch it on Spotify as well and get it as a podcast wherever you get your podcast. But the video will be on Spotify and then starting on Monday with Netflix. So we are doing one more before we do that on Wednesday night. It is going to be another 48 hours. The Eddie Murphy Nick Nolte sequel, Controversial sequel. I have a lot of thoughts, but it was me, Van Lathan and Chris Ryan. So that's coming Wednesday night and then coming next Monday on Netflix because we're going to try to, at least for the first few weeks, do movies that are also on Netflix. We're going to be doing Zodiac, which is a movie we did, I think the first year of the feed we didn't have all the categories. The pod was under an hour. I wasn't on it. So Zodiac will be on Monday night on the Rewatchables feed and also the video will be on Netflix. So you can watch the movie on Netflix anytime over the next five days. Speaking of rewatchables, so I mentioned how there's a Bill Simmons podcast live in Los Angeles on February 11th and you can get it's at the Wiltern Ringer.com events. There might be a couple tickets left. I'm not positive, but I'm just warning you now. It is a Bill Simmons podcast, but a Rewatchables will be breaking out during this podcast. I think I'm allowed to do that since I host both shows, but there's just heavy rumors right now about a Michael Mann movie and maybe even a Michael Mann movie that we've already done and that it's going to be me And Chris Ryan and Van Lathan, just heavy rumors. I can't confirm, can't confirm them yet. But there's a lot of buzz. We'll see if Sham Sterania reports on it. But so yeah, it's a Bill Simmons podcast live. We might even do a little NBA at the top for about 15 minutes because NBA All Star Weekend is going to be hitting that weekend. But there might be a rewatchables breaking out. So I'm just telling you now. Anyway, coming up on this podcast, second one of the week, we're going to talk to Rob Mahoney about what the hell do you do NBA teams, especially with the warriors losing Jimmy Butler last night. So we're going to hit a few teams there. The legend, the mad dog, Chris Russo is going to come on to talk about Josh Allen, hall of Fame quarterbacks and just what happens if you fall short in the playoffs over and over again. How do we think about you? And then last but not least, I made a mistake on Sunday's podcast. I'm going to hash it out with the ringers, Danny Kelly, and we're talking about the Seahawks in the NFL. So big, big, big ass podcast coming up. If you noticed, I didn't talk about college football in any of these segments because we have good college football pods. We have Todd McShay that broke everything down. We had the Ringer tailgate guys that did an awesome job last night. So if you want college football, go listen to those podcasts. I'm doing football and basketball today. We're going to take a break, Pearl Jam and then Rob Mahoney. The Bill Simmons podcast is presented by FanDuel. Playoff mode is on. FanDuel's got it all. Same game parlays, quick bets for jumping in live offers to boost your winnings every game day. You do not want to miss out on the playoff action. The remaining playoff action we have on FanDuel. Download the FanDuel app or head to FanDuel.com BS to get started. 21 in President Select States or 18 President D.C. kentucky or Wyoming Prom. Call 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com call 888-78-97777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Conn. All right, taping this with Rob Mahoney early afternoon Pacific time. I was actually watching last night when Jimmy Butler clearly did something to his knee and fell to the ground and took the warriors season with him. And it ties into a game we're gonna play called okay, what the Hell do we do now? Golden State, as a longtime Curry season tickets guy, just rooting for him to be in my life for as long of an NBA season as possible, every year. This feels insurmountable, Rob. I don't know what they do. I don't. I looked at it. I'm sure you did, too. I looked at spot track. I. I made up fake trades. I just tried to figure it out, and I just couldn't figure it out.
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B
This season is pretty much cooked like, they just didn't have 20 points to spare, much less everything else Jimmy Butler gives them. The offense does not have that much give to it right now, so all you can really do is I think, maybe take, like, a slightly longer view, take a little bit more risk than you would otherwise. It's just this isn't a front office that takes a lot of big swings, that makes a lot of big gambles, and so I don't know how much I'm expecting them to do that, even with Jimmy Butler down.
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A
Yeah. I mean, basically your gamble is going to be, hey, Jonathan Kaminga, how you doing?
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B
Trying to have a conversation with Jonathan Kaminga. That's a big risk at this point.
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A
9:30, breakfast. Want to get some eggs, maybe some yogurt, some granola? I don't know what else they would do. The only trade I could think of, and I don't even know why Philly would do this, is if Philly just wants to get off this year, plus two more years of Paul George. Mm. And you're like, take Butler. He's back. All Star break next year as an expiring contract. We'll take the extra Paul George year. Here's a protected pick and any interest in getting off Paul George.
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B
That's pretty dark if that's where we're going. Like, right off the bat, dark for.
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A
Everyone, including Paul George. It's like, this is my trade value. A guy who just tore his acl. That's pretty, pretty rough. Paul George, I will mention the last 17 games is 16 and five and four and shooting 37% from three and playing 33 minutes a game. Rob, he's.
- [06:56]
B
When he's out there, he's played pretty well. And the same has been true for Joel Embiid. I know we want to talk about the Sixers, too, but they've got, like, at least some momentum and something going. And it felt like the warriors maybe finally did, too. They were finally stringing some games together. It felt like the rotation was maybe starting to finally make some sense. It just sucks to see it fall apart like this. Especially when, as you mentioned, like, the big picture in terms of solutions, there's nothing that's going to fix them for this season. I think it's a matter for them if, like, if they want to target guys who might be like, buy low kind of candidates, who could be something for them next season, who can give them something beyond what they already have. Like, if you call New Orleans and kick around the idea of like bringing in someone like Eve Mecy, for example, if you talk about, I don't like, even like Gigi Jackson, like trying to find guys who are on other team's benches, who aren't delivering, who aren't being trusted, who aren't, you know, fulfilling the brief for whatever they're being asked to do and thinking, okay, if we put them around Steph and Draymond and Jimmy whenever he comes back next year, could they be something for us? Cause otherwise they just don't have that many guys who are rock solid, steady rotation players.
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A
Yeah. I mean, the other option is just to do that with the guy you already have on your roster and Kaminga.
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B
And give it could do that.
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A
This would be. What is this? 9.0 of the Kaminga era of talking yourself into it. But this is.
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B
I think they're going to get this one right. You know, 9.0, like the ninth try. It really is the charm. It really is.
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A
Well, they're 25 and 19. Their net rating was up to 3.0, which was eighth in the league. And I actually saw their last couple games because I'd kind of written them off. And obviously with OKC in Denver, it's hard to imagine a Warriors run. But they still have a top 10 guy. And it did feel like they were rounding into something. And I think that was what was frustrating about last night. Cause they were. They were beating Miami and they look good and they. They felt like they had figured some stuff out. I was going through the Curry bad luck in the 2000s, starting with the second clay injury. They get that high pick and it's the COVID draft. When you can't. You don't have a March Madness to work off of. You can't really work anyone out. You're doing stuff by Zoom. That 21 draft, when they're split in the room on Kamingo vs Wagner, Moody vs Sengu and Murphy, and they just go 0 for 2 with those decisions. The Draymond pool disaster right after they win this Miracle 22 title.
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B
Yep.
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A
Not dealing commingo when they could Have. I think I'm going to count which time well out of the many times. But especially like two, two plus years ago. Like, they, I think, could have gotten Caruso for him. I think it was that level of, like, he was at that Josh Giddy trade value level. They just didn't pull the trigger. And then the ACL last year. Now you could flip it and say they had so much Good luck.
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B
Sure.
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A
From 09 to. From. From Minnesota passing on Curry twice. Right. To Clay falling down in the draft.
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B
Where they did the cap spike all.
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A
Draymond in the second round. All of these things that happened, the Bucks having a choice between Monta Ellis and Curry and picking Monta Ellis in the Boga trade, that's a real thing that happened. So you could argue they used up maybe all their luck after the cap spike. I don't know.
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B
Maybe so. I mean, it's still like so much of what goes wrong with the warriors has nothing to do with Steph not living up to his job. Right. He still elevates everyone around him. He still makes this team incredibly functional, despite the fact that they don't have anything resembling traditional shot creation. Right. Like, he is the engine that makes it all make any modicum of sense. And there's just only so much you can. You can only do that for so long. And I think we've gotten used to having the conversation about, oh, he's doing this at this age. Isn't this remarkable? It still is. It's just everything around him has to. Has to bear some load. Right. Like, it has to carry some of the weight for the team. And increasingly, Draymond can only do so much, and even Jimmy Butler could only do so much. And even d' Anthony Melton is unavailable every third game. And, like, he's one of their most reliable players at this point. So he just needed a little more at basically every step. And if. If any one of those things you mentioned goes a little differently, if, like, Moses Moody is 40% better as a player, 30% better as a player than he is, maybe Golden State's entire trajectory looks totally different.
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A
So the Porter trade, which I think they were considering and didn't seem like they were that interested in, is one they could do with Kaminga and salaries and basically try to replace Butler's production with him. I don't think that changes their destiny as a team that's not going to win the title. There's a Zion dice roll that at least we're having. If you and I are running the Warriors. I think we go out and get a coffee and talk about the pros and cons of ZION, maybe for 45 minutes.
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B
You have the conversation, you. You kick all, all of the odds on that dice roll. It feels a little loaded to me. Like that's a casino I don't know that I want to step foot in.
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A
Yeah, that's one of those where they've changed the blackjack to five to five. Even odds. Trey Murphy. Hail Mary.
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B
Yeah, that's the last one. He's indeed available. Which apparently, supposedly, the Pelicans would never dream of trading. Trey Murphy.
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A
I find it hard to believe he's not available if it's a Godfather offer, but I don't even know if they have enough for a godfather offer. So sadly, this is a wrap, and I don't think Curry ever leaves. So I'm sure day three of this will be. What if they traded Curry? I'm sure that'll go, but I just don't think he wants that. I don't think they want that. I just don't think that's happening. What might happen is the, Ah, my knees bothering me.
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B
Sure.
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A
Like we could zag that way, too. They're not that far away from being able to zag the other way and getting a top 10 pick, but we'll see. All right, next team, the Knicks, as we continue to play. What the hell do we do now? The Knicks are 2 and 9 in their last 11. Yeah, and you could spin that one of two ways. Teams they lost to are pretty good. They lost to Phoenix twice. Spurs, Atlanta, Philly playing pretty well. Detroit.
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B
Yep.
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A
Golden State during a nice little run for them. Dallas has been frisky lately. They lost them yesterday. And then the one bad one was Sacramento. So you could say, well, yeah, okay, those aren't awful losses, but if you had.
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B
You're doing a lot of spinning like you are.
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A
Well, I'm trying.
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B
Don't make yourself dizzy here.
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A
The problem is, if you had a television and you actually watched, what was going on was a little different. The Dallas game was a disgrace. Losing in Sacramento at this point of what Sacramento is when they're -11 net rating and just a disaster. The Knicks are 5 and 10 in their last 15, 26. The net rating 2 and 9 in their last 11. Towns is now the one getting the, the, the most fingers pointed.
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B
Right.
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A
I have some other ideas that I'll give you in a second. But what, what do you see? What do you think's wrong?
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B
Yeah, I mean, normally with teams like this, the Knicks are on Paper still a good team. They're in a conference that has a lot of opportunity for them to go deep. Normally, I would be pretty conservative with the team like the Knicks. I just think something is really off here. Like, it feels awful in. In ways that transcend just the last, like, three weeks. Right. That's been a particularly bad stretch. But really, you're looking at two years now of the team's best players not fully understanding how to best play together, how to. How to work off each other in total, like, their quote, unquote best, like, best five on the floor this season. They're losing their minutes. And that was. That was not quite true under Tibbs, but there was something that was like, a little off. Clearly, they don't fully understand exactly how to play off each other in this offense. Defensively, they're just, like, structural problems with having Jalen, Brunson and Kat as, like, core members of your team. That are always going to be issues. Yeah, they can find ways to work around some of that stuff. And we saw it last year in the playoffs. Right. Like, who they can be collectively when they do tap into the best versions of all that. I just. I'm. I'm pretty apprehensive about just trusting this team to figure it out because they've had time now under two different coaches, and I wouldn't say they ever fully figured it out. They fired the first coach because the process behind the team felt busted. And now at this point, the same roster, more or less, with some, like, additional supplementary players, hasn't really figured out anything different.
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A
Yeah. To me, it's like watching a football team that spent all this money on the two cornerbacks. In this case, that would be Bridges and an obi. Sure. It's like, we have these awesome wing defenders. It's like, great love wing defenders. Need them in this day and age. And those are like the awesome shutdown cornerbacks. And then the defensive line is just awful and everybody can run on them and there's no pass rush. And it's like, well, you have these quarterbacks, but the quarterback has seven seconds to throw. Kind of makes it tougher to have the quarterbacks. I just think this started with, you know, this has been Brunson's whole career as the undersized guy, but I think Indiana really tapped into something against the Knicks with the guards and just being able to attack him with multiple people who had the ball and multiple people that he was having trouble staying in front of, not to mention Towns, too. And I really feel like the biggest Thing that has happened this season is how many teams have modeled themselves after Indiana in all these different ways. Indiana, it's weird because OKC has been the North Star of the league, the team you have to get over. But I think Indiana was the one. Everybody's like, hey, we could do that too. We could full court press. We could use a bench. We could have multiple guards at the same time and spread the floor and have people attacking one on one completely. The Celtics are doing a better version of what the Pacers did last year. They had the same fucking recipe.
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B
I mean, the Pacers version was pretty good. It got them to the NBA Finals.
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A
During the regular season. Like their. Their net rating and stuff. The Celts are second in net rating, but they're doing. The Pacers, they're just doing an imitation of it.
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B
Right.
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A
And I think it's bad for Brunson. I think they go into these games and these. You just have all these different guards that are just attack, attack, attack. And then on top of it, you have Towns going into this funk. And those two things alone, I think. Not to mention they don't seem to trust their bench very much, but that's what I see. So is that. Does that add up for you?
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B
It squares for me. I mean, Jalen Brunson is one of the best in the world at kind of making something out of nothing in some of these situations. Just like, you know, broken possessions situations where he shouldn't be able to create an advantage and does, obviously baiting guys into the air and drawing fouls and doing all those things, but he has to do it a lot. And to your point about the pressure that other teams are applying, full court and otherwise, that takes its toll. You want to find ways to get easier mechanisms of offense. And this is a team that has to have overwhelmingly good offense to overcome everything that they're not on defense collectively. And it doesn't feel overwhelming right now. It feels like they can be a decent offensive team and maybe a fundamentally flawed defensive team.
- [17:42]
A
Yeah. And you can get away with towns when he's 25 and 12. Last night he was 18 or 11, shooting 32% from 3. And when it's going badly for him and he's in one of those Towns funks, you really feel it? Yes, I would say he's first team all NBA of. I'm really feeling it. When it's not going well for you, you just feel it. You feel with his teammates, I think teams attack him, they try to fuck with them. You saw with Golden State, the Other night, Draymond's just messing with them to see. To see what he can get away with, basically.
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B
And, well, his mistakes are among the loudest in the entire league. And it's not just like guys like you and I watching the games. You feel that as a teammate, right? Like, when he messes something up, it feels glaring. It feels like something that, oh, my God, now we have to talk about this now we have to call timeout. Now we have to rally the troops to address this thing that Karl is doing or not doing. Like, that's a not insignificant part of, like, the ecosystems of these teams.
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A
Do you think so? I. I genuinely think Davis for Towns was going to gain traction as we got closer to the deadline, because I thought it was a trade that makes. Made a lot of sense for both teams and just a really good basketball trade. But if you're Dallas, like, yeah, we could put him with Gafford and he could be like a stretch forward. You know, we need more shooting when Kawhi comes back, like, there's some good things with this and we're getting out of the Davis business before he gets hurt again. Then he got hurt again, became a moot point. I say this tentatively, not happy about it. LeBron for Townes is sitting there.
- [19:23]
B
Okay, you're at least a little happy about it.
- [19:28]
A
It's so classic. Just the stupid Internet trade somebody would make up. And yet I'm looking at it going, eh, not a bad trade. Like, for to solve two things, right? If you're the Knicks just trying to get out of the Towns business before that contract gets crazy. If you're the Lakers, this is a pretty interesting guy to put with Luka. I'm now going to war with Luka, Towns and Reeves together. I don't have to worry about getting nothing for LeBron a year from now. And if I'm the Knicks, it's like, well, this will be weird with Brunson and LeBron. And, you know, all of a sudden, I don't really have a center. I'm gonna have to rely on Mitchell Robinson. There's all these other variables that are opening up. Just fundamentally a pretty interesting basketball trade. My take is way more fun for the league if you just do that right now. Most fun, like sign me up from an entertainment fund standpoint of just downs for LeBron. But you seem a little more skeptical.
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B
I just. LeBron's 41 years old. I don't want to throw it on him that he needs to now save the New York Knicks and especially needs to make sense of their defense in some way. I think obviously adding LeBron as a secondary playmaker, as somebody who's going to take, you know, relieve some of the pressure off of Brunson, that's an, that's a hugely valuable thing. I think where you and I are different is like, for everything that Towns has done and not done, and as frustrating as he's been, especially over the last couple weeks, I'm not operating from the mindset of like, we have to get out of the Carl Towns business. Right. Like, I, I'm open to any Towns trade. Certainly like an Anthony Davis one I think might be more appealing. Especially if, like your medical staff believes that he might be back in five to six weeks. Right. That it might be a non surgical recovery for him. That's something that would be really interesting to me. But like, I wouldn't do it if he had.
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A
I wouldn't do it if. I don't know if he's coming back this year.
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B
I think that's, that's where I have moved on the Knicks is. If you ask me a month ago, should they even consider trading for somebody who has a serious injury and might come back? I said, obviously, like, obviously not. They're in. So they're so well positioned, positioned in the East. They're talented enough. I'm going to trust them to figure it out. I no longer trust this team to figure it out. Like, I think they need to consider some pretty dramatic changes. They don't necessarily have to be Towns oriented, but he's the natural guy you look at.
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A
Yeah. And it's weird because that whole identity matched a lot of what we're watching with some of the successful teams this year. Like that over, overachieving, underdog, scrappy. That's who they were two years ago. That's who it felt like they were at times last year. And now they feel like just your classic. Everybody's making a ton of money on an NBA team. I thought this was going to go better. We just see it. We've seen this happen for the last 40 years with certain teams. I don't know what the answer is with having Towns and Brunson at the same time. And I think back to that Celtics series, which was the best series they won in the last two years with Brunson and the Celtics. Just, we were saying it as it was happening. It was one of the dumbest offensive game plans. The way they played them was the one way that was great for the Knicks. Defensively, it's like we're just Going to launch threes. It was like the Knicks were like, great, that sounds awesome. Please keep doing that. And they, they were able to scrap and win. But I do wonder Brunson and Towns together how sustainable that is. All right. Yeah, next one. Speaking of the Celtics, the Tatums back. Celtics. This is much. We can do this quick because I've talked about the Celts a lot. It's a weird team, but they do have Tatum coming back as the quote unquote trade deadline move.
- [22:55]
B
And they might have Tatum coming back as the trade deadline.
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A
Well, did you see, what did you see yesterday?
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B
I saw it.
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A
The workout in front of reporters is like, that's basically, that's now, that's like the soft, that's the friends and family launch of a restaurant. Come on in. We're going to try to make some tortellini.
- [23:13]
B
Soft launching Jason Tatum's return is a very funny way for the Celtics season to go.
- [23:17]
A
But, like, he's coming back.
- [23:19]
B
I, I, I expect that he will come back at some point. In what form is my question. Right. Because 60% Jason Tatum and 80% Jason Tatum, those are radically different players.
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A
What if I offered you a small dose minutes version of a 90% Jason Tatum?
- [23:37]
B
How, how are we accomplishing this medically? Like, does, does he need to have like a cybernetic arm? Like, what's happening?
- [23:42]
A
Well, I think he's going to be all right.
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B
Like, I don't think he's just going to be fine.
- [23:46]
A
I don't think he's going to be fine to be playing 39 minutes a game like he did before the injury. But the question, the text threads that I'm on because this team has overachieved 26 and 16. They're third in net rating now.
- [24:00]
B
Crazy.
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A
And they, and when you look at like the, the bigger stats with them, it's just a fucking weird team. Like, they're first in turnovers, which is great. They're sixth in offensive rebounds. Big part of the strategy of like just shooting three, crash the boards, basically. Second in May threes. They're seventh at three point percentage. They're also 29th in free throw attempts. They're 29th in assists and they're 30th in pace. If I just gave you those three and I'd be like, what do you think the team's offensive rating would be with those three stats? You'd be like, I don't know. 20th?
- [24:30]
B
Yeah, 24th maybe. Like, it's, it's not a great recipe by that standard, but they make it I mean they make it work. And by that I mean mostly Jaylen Brown makes it work.
- [24:38]
A
And the three guards and the fact that they always have these two guards. And White has been in a slump lately, which is one of the reasons their record has dipped in. But looking at the minutes Yesterday, Brown plays 38, White plays 37, Pritchard 33, Simon's 24K to 28, Garza 15. And then Hauser, Walsh and Scheireman are at 57. And you figure if Tatum comes back and he's just playing 20 minutes, he's grabbing 10 minutes from somebody, which I would assume is that Charman Walsh combo. But. But then on one of my threads we were like, are we sure Peyton Pritchard should be playing 33 minutes a game? I don't think he should.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So maybe he gets 10 of those. Then there was, well, what happens in the playoffs because I don't know if they could play Garza, who I think I like Garza, but I wonder if he's going to get targeted. It's like, could Jason Tatum gasp play some stretch five?
- [25:35]
B
Why are we doing this to him? The like the man is on a surgically repaired leg and you're asking him to play like part time center, basically.
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A
Going small ball with Tatum in the Garza spot. And here's why I bring this up. I don't know how this is going to play out and it's one of the weirder variables. I remember where a team that's playing really well, that's a two seed is now just bringing this guy who was the fourth best player in the league last year and he has to fit into what's happening and I don't know how they're going to do it and I don't know what he's going to be happy with. And then if I'm Jaylen Brown, who you didn't see the game last night, he's guarding Cade on one end, he's doing everything on the other end and he's the best forward in the league right now and I don't want him to lose some of the stuff he's doing.
- [26:18]
B
Totally.
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A
But Tatum's going to want to prove that he's so they have. It's just this, there's a lot of balance and can we keep the identity of this year's team and not be last year's team? I don't know how they're going to unlock it.
- [26:31]
B
I think that whole that balance is incredibly delicate. And you're right. Like you should Be mindful of what it does to Jaylen Brown as a player to introduce this huge variable when he has been able to dictate terms in ways that have been incredibly beneficial to him and wildly successful given all of our expectations. I would be mindful of that. I would be mindful of Jason Tatum, as you said. Like, is he going to be happy with this sort of arrangement? It's really hard to ask a competitor who is that talented and that successful to, oh, you're just going to play 20 minutes a game. You're going to be on these hard minutes limits even as you work your way back, even for someone who I'm sure wants to be a part of it.
- [27:05]
A
Yeah.
- [27:07]
B
Talk to him after a competitive crunch time or fourth quarter where he's not allowed to play because he already hit his limit in that game.
- [27:13]
A
Right.
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B
Like, so basically you're trusting him to be responsible in his minutes. You're trusting the Celtics coaching staff to be responsible at his minutes. You're trusting every member of that roster to. To be like, so squarely in their zone in terms of role that they will understand what Tatum coming back means and doesn't mean. There's just a lot of ways that a really successful season could just be upset all of a sudden. I'm not saying don't do it. If you have Jason Tatum available and he's healthy enough to play, he should play. But these are huge variables for a team that, as you said, is basically strung all this together because they have overachieved, because they have tapped into something like, kind of magical in the alchemy of the group. And now you're challenging the alchemy of the group.
- [27:52]
A
Yeah. And. And the style that they play is different with how. Even how they use the two bigs to set picks, how much runs through the guards compared to how much ran through Tatum last year. So it is. It's going to be fascinating. But people really like the Celtics team and people are also really excited that Jason Tatum might come back. And it feels like if you have a great coach or a really good coach, and I think that Missoula has been really good and a good organization that doesn't want to rush him back, that trusts like, you got to come back. This team, I think is pretty realistic, but it's definitely a. What are we going to do? Orlando, just quickly. So they're 23 and 19. Every time I become intrigued by them or think maybe something will happen, they just suck in a game.
- [28:39]
B
They've got some bad losses.
- [28:41]
A
They like the Last one they had the getting killed by Memphis in London or wherever the hell they played that game. I guess the thing I keep coming back to Rob is I think we have a. We're halfway through the season. There's some really good advanced stats now. There's good sample sizes. There's good five man lineup stuff. Now there's even good like last 20 games where you can look at a team like the Clippers be like, sure, throw out the record. Look at the last 20, Carter, Suggs, Bain, Paolo and Franz is plus 18 per 100. So even though I'm 2319, I've had some weird injuries. I'm just looking at that and going, you know what, let's, we can make a run. We could beat Dallas two years ago. Let's just trust the process. Right. Is that fair?
- [29:24]
B
Totally. I think, I mean, maybe that's a lofty ambition for them, but it is what they should at least think about embracing. And I think they've been a different team when Jalen Suggs has been healthy. They've been certainly. They've opened my eyes just with the Anthony Black, like the wild card of him.
- [29:40]
C
Yeah.
- [29:40]
B
Oh my God, he's been incredible.
- [29:41]
C
Yeah.
- [29:42]
B
So like, as far as navigating the deadline goes, I don't think they should do anything dramatic. I want to see the healthiest version of Suggs and Paolo and Franz and Bane in particular. And now adding Anthony Black to that mix in some capacity, I want to give them a shot to show something and to prove something. I think they've earned that. You can still short around the edges a little bit and I think you can maybe find another backup guard who can give you something a little more than what they've gotten from Tyus Jones, who has been muted at best and kind of riding the bench at worst. You know, I'm like eyeing like IU Disumu in Chicago. Like, is that a guy that's pryable, right. Someone who's like an energy defender who's hitting like 45% of his threes this season? Could that be an option? Is, you know, the Anthony Simon stuff has always been out there. Is there like a mutually beneficial Simons Gogo Bhattache oriented deal that gets Boston a backup big and gets Orlando some shooting? I don't even know, but that's kind of where I'd be looking is like that fourth guard spot, basically. I think there's some room for Orlando to do something.
- [30:44]
A
Would you like to know my Anthony, Anthony Simons update for whether I'd Want him to be traded or not?
- [30:50]
B
I would love to do that in.
- [30:51]
A
My newsletter, but I have a substack. I don't want them to trade him.
- [30:56]
B
No, you're holding on tight.
- [30:59]
A
I like them. I actually think it's taken them a while to figure out what he is and isn't. And I don't know. He had a game a couple games ago when they just spread the floor with them and kind of unleashed him, and it was awesome. And he was just. I mean, he has. I think out of all the guards, it's weird. One of the best first steps when he's really, like, just zooms by people. And he's also, like, one of the best, I'm feeling it shooters, I think, in the league. And I think if you look at the advanced stats of them the last two months combined with just, like, the way he's been shooting, like, I just wouldn't trade him because there's an easy Malik Monk trade sitting there. If they wanted to shed salary and get under the first apron and they could be involved in a variety of ways, and I actually think Malik Monk would be really good with this team. I wouldn't trade Simons. I think the team likes them like the players like them, the coaches like them. So when I. Anyway, when I look at Orlando, yeah, it's like, is there like a Kobe Jones Alvarado you mentioned to someone, like, one of those is somewhere one of those three levels of guards that they could add to give them a little flexibility. I'm more interested in, like, what am I getting from Paolo? Why aren't you better than you were last year? Why are we so beholden to you at the end of these games? And are you just going to be Sharif Abdur rahim from the 2002 season? That's who you are. You're just a 21 and 8 and you take. You're taking some 20 footers.
- [32:33]
B
Okay, this a little harsh. I know I'm being harsh. Look, he's been disappointing this season in playoff games. He has consistently been, like, one of the only guys who shows up, right, whose shot isn't completely failing him, who's kind of, like, able to. I say force it, but I mean it as a compliment. Like, force his way through tough defense and create opportunities and shots in ways that other guys can't always do. So I want to see.
- [32:57]
A
And the playmaking's there, too. There's things that I wonder, like, if you gave all the Magic fans truth serum and they woke up from a nap and you gave them truth serum and you said we have traded either Franz or Palo. What would be more disappointing to you? I wonder what the answer would be.
- [33:13]
B
I would love to hear it. I feel like Paulo's approval rating in Orland among Magic fans is still pretty high. Now nationally. A lot of people who are skeptics, a lot of people were wondering about, you know, whether it's the jump shooting efficiency or the defense or kind of like who he ultimately will be. Yeah, I feel like Magic fans still like Paolo.
- [33:31]
A
Here's the. Here's the best thing for Paolo and the best case for he'll be fine. Look at what happened to Jaylen Brown. What we've learned is social media can just beat out all the bad habits of a player and turn them into an awesome first team. All NBA.
- [33:43]
C
Er.
- [33:44]
B
This is the thing we're so worried about. The effects that social media have on the youth, on our brains. What if it can fix us?
- [33:51]
A
Jaylen Brown now has a crossover dribble and doesn't lose the ball in traffic and has devastating two point game. It's great.
- [33:57]
B
Incredible.
- [33:59]
A
I think Orlando's fine. I was actually looking at the odds for them on FanDuel for Eastern Conference and I thought they'd be higher, but it's only 10 to 1. I could see them making a little run here, like a little post All Star break. It's like Orlando is 18 and 2 in their last 20. I'm not ruling them out. Philly from a what the hell are we going to do now? Standpoint, I think their fans really liked what was going on with this team. And then Paul George came back and Embiid came back and they both are playing. Embiid's played 12 of the last 14 three minutes a game.
- [34:33]
B
Like knock on every piece of wood you have in your home. But like is kind of playing pretty well. Kind of moving and looking like Joel Embiid again.
- [34:40]
A
Three point shot seems gone. The second jump stuff's gone. Sure it looks like one of his legs doesn't really work anymore, but that. But listen, Tim Duncan.
- [34:53]
B
I don't know about that.
- [34:54]
A
Tim Duncan's last seven years, I think he was on one leg.
- [34:58]
B
That's fair.
- [34:58]
A
It's fine. Rebounding. Not where it used to be. No, but it still feels like he can score when he wants to. So he's at least become almost like the greatest version ever of like Ogoskas in the late 2000s where it's like we could throw this guy the ball and he'll get a basket for us.
- [35:17]
B
The greatest version of Zojuna Zolgauskas. I'm sure that's what Joel Embiid has been trying to.
- [35:21]
A
I know that was what he was hoping for. And Paul George has been playing too, as we discussed earlier, and yet it hasn't really affected their record. And now when you watch them, it's like when you're on Prestige TV with a bunch of our shows, it's like the TV show where there's two shows going on at the same time.
- [35:39]
B
It's like the writers room is struggling to pull it all together.
- [35:42]
A
I like this procedural room over there. I'm not sure about, like, the rom com going on in here. Can we do more of the procedural? And I think that's how the Sixer fans feel about Maxi and Edgecombe.
- [35:51]
B
I think that's probably true. I personally am waiting for the bottle episode of Dominic Barlow and his exploits.
- [35:57]
A
Like, I'm into that personally, but solo episode. Yeah.
- [36:00]
B
This thing, though, like, this is what's hard about the Sixers is the east is open enough and they're good enough as is. They, like, I think they should consider themselves to be a pretty serious player and more biased than seller. But what exactly do they need? Because they're not complete. But you look up and down their roster and it's like, yeah, they could use, you know, a little more forward depth. They could probably use a different kind of creator, especially off the bench, to kind of complement what they have. But you don't want to take the ball out of Tyrese Maxey's hands too much. You don't want to take away Joel Embiid's momentum. Like, they kind of have some of the stuff that should work in theory, but it's hard to know how much to hedge against Paul George and Joel not being available for this game or that and what exactly you need to add to this group. Like, it's just not immediately clear to me where the obvious upgrade is.
- [36:47]
A
Well, and they have this Grimes contract that's basically a one year deal, which I think is hard to trade when at some point they can trade it though, right?
- [36:55]
B
They can't trade it.
- [36:56]
D
Right.
- [36:56]
A
Right around now is when it's available.
- [36:58]
B
And I think maybe the Grimes contract plus Kelly Oubre, like, puts them into.
- [37:03]
A
The vicinity of people.
- [37:04]
D
Yeah, that's.
- [37:04]
B
That's starting to. Like, now that's a conversation. And those are two guys who can actually help teams present tense and maybe can help the Sixers resolve some of, like, this redundancy.
- [37:12]
A
Basically, there's a trade asset they have. That would be a trade asset for me if I ran another team, but I'm not sure is actually a trade asset anymore. Is Jared McCain sure look good for a cup of coffee. Last year we got super excited about him. Got hurt.
- [37:29]
B
Now he's a Delaware bluecoat.
- [37:31]
A
Now he's in the G League, which is just incredible. I remember before the year talking about could they put Paul George's contract with Jared McCain as the asset attached to try to get something better than Paul George. Now it's like I don't even know if McCain's an asset. But I still, I would trade for that guy. Like, like, to me, that's like a guy Minnesota should be staring at.
- [37:53]
B
Oh yeah, that'd be awesome.
- [37:54]
A
But there's a couple teams or Houston, there's.
- [37:57]
B
Or Golden State. Like, teams that are just like in a position to take a chance on a guy who isn't as good as he could right this second.
- [38:03]
A
And who I don't think has a path with the Sixers. They have their backcourt. Like, he's just never. He's going to be a 15 and 20 minute a game guy for them for eternity. They have their two guys.
- [38:15]
B
VJ is way too good.
- [38:17]
A
Like, yeah, he's just not going to play. And I'm sure maybe that's part of the. The thing with him that, oh, this sucks. Like, I have. My path is to be the third guard on this team. I. That guy is an LA high school guy. I watched him in high school play. Like, I just thought he was awesome. I liked him at Duke. I think there's really something there and that I think is a real asset. So what do they need? Probably some Paul George swing insurance. Like if you're in a playoff series. Who's guarding Jalen Brown? If I catch the Celtics right on that team. I don't know.
- [38:53]
B
No easy answers. Like, currently, I think it'd probably be someone like Kelly Oubre.
- [38:57]
C
Right.
- [38:57]
B
Getting the bulk of that responsibility. And that's, you know, flighty at best, not awesome.
- [39:03]
A
And then the embiid thing, I guess this has been a success. When we thought two months ago that he seemed like he was not going to be in the league.
- [39:12]
B
Yeah. I mean, he beats the alternatives.
- [39:14]
A
Yeah. I would say this is. We're in the pleasant surprise.
- [39:17]
B
Yes.
- [39:18]
A
Stage of this. So their odds to win the east are 11 1. So FanDuel has Detroit at plus 330. Celts plus 340, Knicks plus 390. Cavs 5 to 1, Magic 10 to 1, Sixers 11 to 1 and then the only Is there any other team you'd want to know the odds for? I think that's really it.
- [39:40]
B
The Charlotte Hornets. What are the Hornets odds to win the east?
- [39:42]
A
125 to 1. I'm glad you asked.
- [39:44]
B
You know what, speaking of buy low.
- [39:46]
A
Let'S get speaking of incredible five man lineup, advanced metrics.
- [39:52]
B
See now we're talking.
- [39:53]
A
They were second in net rating with their best five out of everyone in the league over 100 minutes with the Knipple and Miller and the center when those and they've like kind of their west coast trip was pretty good. Yeah, yeah. I went at Zach on Twitter. Zach and I have been feuding about the Hornets ever since. He laughed me out of the room and I said they were number six as my league pass team.
- [40:14]
B
Oh no, they should be higher than six as your league pass team.
- [40:16]
A
They're great. They've been just a reliable, entertaining team this whole time. So you're what do we do now as the Sixers is let's wait another week to see how healthy these guys are.
- [40:26]
B
Couldn't hurt. Or like you know, modest upgrades on the bench I think would be nice but otherwise like see if you can string together some of these contracts to make a meaningful deal.
- [40:34]
A
All right, quick break and then we'll quickly talk about the Lakers and some others. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. Four teams left, two games this weekend, a trip to Super Bowl LX. I think that's 60 on the line. FanDuel is turning on playoff mode and right now all customers get a profit boost pack during the Conference Championship round. That means you'll find a pack loaded with multiple profit boosts waiting for you in the app. More boosts means more ways to level up your playoff bets. And on Thursday's pod we are going to break down not only the games themselves, but a bunch of fun props related to the game. So stay tuned for that visit fuel.com NFL grab your profit boost pack for the NFC and AFC Championship games. You must be 21 President in select states or 18 in President, D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in required bonus issued as non withdrawable profit boost tokens. Restrictions apply including any token expiration max wager amount. See terms@sportsbook.fandrel.com get prom call 100 gambler or visit rg-help.com call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org Chattinconenetic the Lakers are my favorite. What do we do now team, because they're 25 and 16. And if you just freeze frame it right there and you're like, they're 25 and 16. They have basically the same record as the Celtics. What's wrong? Why are you complaining? It's like, well, you haven't watched them their last 20. Their 29th defensive rating. There's 30 teams, so that's kind of a big deal.
- [42:09]
B
Yeah.
- [42:09]
A
Their 25th in net rating, minus 4.7. Um, I thought this was funny. They're 26th in rebounds, 28th in blocks, and 23rd and made threes. If I just gave you those three stats, you'd be like, that team's probably bad. They are second in free throw attempts. But that's just because they're the Lakers and the league is rigged for free throw.
- [42:29]
B
And because Luka Doncic is the best at doing that basically in the whole game. Yeah, yeah.
- [42:34]
A
They have a bunch of expiring contracts. Rui Vincent, Cleaver, Cleba. And it's basically 40 right there. 8 and 8 and 8. Vanderbilt's 11, 12 and 13. Then they have some smaller ones. All the Laker fans I know hate the fact that this might be the team in March and feel like they're just drawing dead at the poker table with the defense. What do you do now if you're the Lakers?
- [43:02]
B
The defense is really bad and it's awful. There is not one move or one series of moves. I don't even think that fixes all that this season. It's. To me, the framework is, can you hit a solid double, right? Like, can you find a contributing perimeter player who will be a part of this team next year, who will make some of this make sense? And I'd be calling every day about, like, Tari Eason, about D. Anthony Melton, about Keon Ellis, about, like, maybe if the Bucks go to shit and they start fire sailing guys off, like Ryan Rollins, someone like that, right? Like, who. Who can you get in on that can give you. Honestly, the skill is great and you want guys who can contribute offensively, but they just need somebody who is a dynamic enough athlete that when they try to get back on defense, it doesn't look like they're running a sand dune. Like, they just don't have anyone who makes getting up and down the court look easy right now. And that feels like a huge problem every time they bump up against any young team, any athletic team, any team that, like, they just work them because of that. And so they just feel like they're stuck in the Mud. Because that's where a lot of their guys are athletically right now.
- [44:06]
A
Yeah, I was saying to one of my Laker fan friends, these teams have the Lakers on the schedule and if you're a younger team that likes to go up and down and try to score points, you must be like, we're playing the Lakers tonight. This is going to be great. I'm going to try to score 40 points.
- [44:20]
B
I mean, why wouldn't you like that opportunity is there for you. And again, it's like there isn't one silver bullet solution to that problem. But you need somebody who's going to make sense longer term, or at least medium term with Luka and Austin Reaves, if that works with LeBron, if you want to consider him part of the mix beyond this season. Like they just need somebody who fits better than what they have and they just don't have enough actual supplementary talents.
- [44:44]
A
Who fit that if you catch them on the wrong night, they have successfully replicated the energy of the guys who have been playing pickup for three hours and decided to play one more game. And they realized halfway through that it was a bad idea and they probably shouldn't have, but they still have to finish the game.
- [45:01]
B
Been guilty on many such occasions.
- [45:02]
A
You know, I'm very familiar with this energy. Yeah, it's like, should we go one more? I don't know, my feet hurt. Well, one more and then you're just like kind of half out of half heartedly jogging after dudes were 20ft behind you. That's what they look like. They still have Luka Doncic, who's having an awesome offensive season, and some of his effort on defense has been as reprehensible as ever. Of course, LeBron, it's even tough to complain about him at age 41. I think it's amazing that he's still as productive as he is at this point. But if you're asking him to lock down people, good luck. They have probably the top two guys in the league who don't move, who move the least when they don't have.
- [45:41]
B
The ball, who do the most with the least in terms of their actual body.
- [45:45]
A
When they have the ball, it's like, I'm out of. I'm out. I'm just out of the play, I guess. And it's just a bad mix of guys. So the bright side is their record's pretty good, but I think that 20 game sample size is pretty illuminating. I actually like Rui as a piece for somebody else, not this team, because I think ultimately I think LeBron has to be a 4 at this point to play Rui. LeBron and Ayton is just nonsensical to me. You could argue Luka could be a 4 sometimes, but I think really they could turn into something. There's teams, like we talked about the Sixers a little bit ago, that's like an interesting Sixer to me. Like some size, some three point shooting.
- [46:24]
B
I like that.
- [46:25]
A
But there's some teams that I just think, honestly, he's a pretty interesting OKC guy for me.
- [46:31]
B
This is kind of one of the problems, though, is that one of the benefits of having Luka on your team is, in theory, it opens up room to do a lot of interesting things. Positionally, you can mix and match guys, you can play different sorts of skill sets, you can move guys around the board in ways that they might not be able to on other teams, but they're so locked in between when Reaves is out there and healthy and Luka and LeBron. But really it's a Luka and LeBron issue in terms of playing those guys together where you don't have that flexibility. And that makes Rui less valuable. It makes Jake Laravia slightly less valuable. Like, you just feel so hamstrung by centering so much of your team around guys who don't open up the room for you to play more interesting combinations of players.
- [47:10]
A
You wouldn't consider trading Reeves, Right?
- [47:14]
B
I mean, I'm not like completely ruling it out. I think Austin Reaves is awesome. But this is maybe a team that needs an awesome player who plays a slightly different position or could at least, at least stand to go through the.
- [47:24]
A
Thought experiment of it because he's 45 billion a year. Next year it's going to be 50. Because now whatever you pay him, you're locked into Luka and him as your top two expensive guys. Yes. So you have to decide if these are my top two. Am I winning a title? Basically. But give me all the best possible people to put with these two guys.
- [47:49]
C
Right.
- [47:49]
B
I'm fully comfortable paying him at this point. Like, I don't really have doubts about him as a creator. It's more like, is this the best possible use of all of that cap investment? Is it Austin Reaves and Luka together? Or again, do we need somebody who's giving you a little more defensively? Do you want someone who plays off of Luka like Austin honestly plays off of Luka well, but plays off of him in a different way?
- [48:10]
C
Yeah.
- [48:12]
A
Well, to be continued with them, there's a Possibility JJ might have to be hospitalized, though, if they have to keep playing defense like that. I could just see him. I could just see him all of a sudden be like, I think something's going on.
- [48:24]
B
The aneurysm potential is high.
- [48:25]
A
Oh, my gosh. Bucks 18 and 24. Somehow they are 15 and 13 with Giannis and 3 and 11 without him. Part of the issue is they only have two tradable contracts other than Giannis and Turner. One is Kuzma, 22 this year, 20 next year, and then Portis 13 and then 14, and then they have a bunch of small ones.
- [48:48]
B
And those are two guys who have been around the trade block. Like Kyle Kuzma has been available at many different points for many different teams at this stage. There, you know, there's always some interest, but not overwhelming interest. And Bobby Portis, wildly productive for the role you slot him into, but has so many, like, little red flags or asterisks or like, trade offs to his game that make him hard for a team to, like, really take a swing on.
- [49:12]
A
Yeah. So you're looking at Simons and Portis together. I'm sorry, not Simons. I have a four teamer. With the Kings getting Kuzma, the Celtics getting Monk, the Grizzlies getting Simons and Portis, and the Bucks getting John Morant. You're looking at crazy trades like that where you ultimately end up turning your two trade assets into John Morant and then crossing your fingers really hard.
- [49:38]
B
I don't love it.
- [49:39]
A
I don't either.
- [49:40]
B
I mean, I don't. I don't love the Jai Giannis possibility in general.
- [49:43]
A
Me neither.
- [49:44]
B
Maybe the Bucks are desperate enough to do it, but, like, this is ultimately their problem. Right. They really only have two options, and it's. You either go hard at basically any decent proposal that is put in front of you to try to make this team better as soon as possible. Like, that would be what investment in this core looks like. The standing pat, like, middle ground option, I don't think really makes a lot of sense for this team at this stage. The other option is you do, like, you make the hard call on trading Giannis or something. You don't want to do something that you've been loath to even consider to this point. But if you're not like, really swinging at, like, big trades and possibilities, like a Ja Morant style deal, even if I don't like Jaws Fit specifically, what are you doing here? Like, like, what is the point of going through all this, of turning your cap sheet upside down? To fit Miles turn. If you're not willing to make then further dramatic. The calls you make are only going to have to get bigger and bigger and bolder and bolder to make any of this work.
- [50:39]
A
What Heat character is Giannis right now? I mean, because I have a hardcore.
- [50:45]
B
Answer on this, I would love to hear yours. Who do you have?
- [50:48]
A
Pacino's girlfriend or wife. Whatever she is, she knows she needs to break up with Vincent. Doesn't really have the balls to just say it. So she's like, just putting on makeup and going out on dates and disgracing herself with Ralph.
- [51:03]
B
Yeah.
- [51:04]
A
Because Vincent won't break up with her.
- [51:05]
B
That was. This was. My question is like, who's the guy she's bringing home from the club? Basically? Who is that in this metaphor?
- [51:10]
A
I don't know who that is yet. But Giannis, just. Just ask for the trade. Just do it. The Bucks fans aren't going to be mad. The Bucks fans want you to basically do it at this point. Yeah, just do it. Just. Just go and just ask.
- [51:22]
B
It's just hard to imagine their way out. Yeah. Like, we're talking about John Morant. The Jeremy Grant trade rumors have been out there for a long time. And it's like if Jeremy Grant is your big solution, like, you might already be buried. Like, it might just be over.
- [51:36]
A
It's sad because this Turner thing that they did, which I did not, like I was on the record.
- [51:43]
B
Yep.
- [51:45]
A
Dame, I think, would have been fairly tradable with that contract to at least be a big money figure that you could have attached a couple other things to. Sure. They didn't do that. They're not going to trade Turner.
- [52:02]
B
I mean, it's not like he was an expiring deal, though.
- [52:04]
A
No. But it was this year and next that at least you could have been in the conversation to take back a big contract back, plus other stuff, and you could have patched together something.
- [52:14]
B
Yeah.
- [52:15]
A
And they just couldn't do it. They took that off the table. So now it's all you have is Portis and Kuzma extremely tough.
- [52:22]
B
I don't really see a way out for them right now.
- [52:24]
A
The way out is to trade Giannis and they should get to that point. Do it. Hawks. I don't know.
- [52:31]
B
Do they know?
- [52:32]
A
Like, they don't know how they.
- [52:33]
B
Do they know what they are.
- [52:34]
A
The Bulls are quietly, like, pretty good last 20 games and they've had a couple good wins. No, I mean, like, they. I thought they were going to tank.
- [52:42]
C
Sure.
- [52:42]
B
They don't. Well, they don't do that.
- [52:44]
A
No. Well, they're ahead at their 11 and nine in their last 20. They're 20 and 22 overall. Nobody can remember a single moment from any game they've had.
- [52:54]
B
I mean, 20, 20 and 22 overall is the most Chicago Bulls record that one could possibly have. So this is what they do. This is who they are. It's the lot they have chosen for themselves.
- [53:04]
A
Well, and then the Hawks, they do the Trae Young trade. We think it's leading another trade. Davis gets hurt. I guess they could mortgage everything for Giannis. I don't know what they would do. They can't play defense even. I mean, now that Trey Young is gone, it's still a team that. That doesn't seem like they can defend properly. And I just. To me, it's like, let's see what we get with the Pelicans pick. Let's see what we get with our. Don't they have. What's the other pick they have? They have their own pick back. I think they have two picks.
- [53:33]
B
Who are we missing?
- [53:34]
A
Well, the big one is New Orleans. I'm waiting a year. I'm seeing what happens this summer. There's no urgency. You're not making the Finals. I just kind of wouldn't do anything. Right.
- [53:43]
B
I mean, I think they get. At this point, everything is so new post Trey, that I think they need to stabilize a little bit and figure out who they are. Like, it's been kind of a struggle of late, but really it's like offensively, who are they going to be? What kind of team are they going to settle into? You're right that the defense hasn't been great and they have the profile of a team that probably needs to win with defense and then have kind of a come and go, volatile offense. They just don't really show any signs of that. It's. I think it's hard when you have. You don't have organizers who get everyone into place and you don't have volume drivers on the team really, other than Jalen Johnson. Kind of like it's hard to have a. Like a good, stable offense when you don't have either of those things. And until they do, I think they're going to fall into this zone. Cause it's like this read and react. We're just going to figure out every possession as it comes expectation. It seems pretty clear these guys are not up to that.
- [54:33]
A
I think they're pretty fun to watch sometimes and then other times you put them on and they're down 75 to 50 in the second quarter and like, what's going on? I would wait a year and figure out what I had. This would be a fun Jared McCain team, too. They needed somebody like that, like one. Like some sort of normal guard who's just like, I'm here to set everybody else up. I'm just here to make some smart basketball plays, guys.
- [54:54]
B
So if you're the Hawks, are you totally ruling out Anthony Davis?
- [54:59]
A
I think I am. I think I look at this year and it's like, look, we did a really good job. We made an awesome trade with the Pelicans. We rolled the dice with Porzingis, and we Knew it wasn't 100%, but it was a smart trade, a smart way for us to use our money. Didn't work out. We thought Trey, with all these athletes around him, maybe this would be it. It didn't work out.
- [55:20]
B
Nope.
- [55:21]
A
Let's reboot it this summer. We gave it a whirlwind. Let's see what we got. We. We got to get Rhys Sachet going. We got to figure out if we can run a playoff offense through Jalen Johnson entirely. And let's kind of look at this and see what we're missing. This is how I would look at it.
- [55:38]
B
The counterpoint is, if you're already thinking about, let's let. Let's reboot this thing and take another crack at it next year, wouldn't it. Couldn't Anthony Davis be a part of that, taking another crack at it? Like, couldn't you re like, reimagine the team around him being a critical part of your defense, giving, giving you a different inside, especially counter.
- [56:00]
A
I just don't know if he's ever going to be healthy again.
- [56:03]
B
Oh, none of. None of us do.
- [56:05]
A
It feels like. Like Blake Griffin was in this point with Detroit, right, where he'd had a lot of injuries already and he had that one last really good, healthy Detroit season. But I don't think any of us felt like this was sustainable in the 20, 22 range. Now. He was a little different. He was a jumper and an athlete, and you only. Only have so many things in your legs. He'd had some knee injuries, some.
- [56:26]
B
Well, AD is those things too, in terms of especially his offensive game. Like, he has a little bit of mid range to him, but he is a jumper and an athlete, too.
- [56:34]
A
But some of his injuries were like, he has this eye thing now that he has to wear goggles the rest of his career. He has this hand thing.
- [56:42]
B
Right.
- [56:42]
A
You know, and then he had some, some leg stuff too. I, I really get nervous about injured big guys who are expensive hitting their. Hitting the stage of his career that he's in, which is basically like year, what will be year 15 next year. He's.
- [56:56]
B
I mean, he's, he's getting long in the tooth really fast. And some of it is just you blink in him as a season, you blink him as a half a season, then all of a sudden, like next, next spring, he's gonna be 34 years old. You know, like, he's not a young up and coming player by any means, or even one who's comfortably in his prime anymore. He's gonna have to be. He's gonna have to adjust his game for sure. I think for me, if the price is low enough, like, if it's just, can you help Dallas clear salary and offer them something for their trouble, then maybe that's enough to take a risk on. I'm not, I'm not throwing Nikhil Alexander Walker into a deal or something like that. But like, if it is, if the price is low enough, I still think maybe there's enough reason for them to do it longer term.
- [57:35]
A
So you're just saying expirings. We'll give you a pick, but not a really good one. We will take Anthony Davis off your hands.
- [57:41]
B
Yes.
- [57:41]
A
Because if I'm Dallas, I'm keeping him for another year. And, and actually with the team that I have, I'm probably more excited about that because that there's. If you catch Dallas on the right night, there's some interesting stuff going on with them there.
- [57:56]
B
There's always interesting stuff going on. I, I think for them it's the, the extension looming scares the hell out of me. It's like if, if you are not comfortable paying Anthony Davis on his next deal.
- [58:08]
A
Yeah.
- [58:08]
B
Then why would you keep him beyond this season? Because, like, that is going to be the. That's what you're playing for. That is the expectation of keeping him around whether it's on an extension or in free agency. If you're not comfortable doing that, you should trade him. Now. I know it's hard to do that. I know it's hard to potentially take a return if you're the Mavs that feels like you're selling low on a, on a really good player, I can assure you it can go lower. With a guy who is injured this often, who's only going to be older by next trade deadline, like, if you wait, I think it's going to get worse.
- [58:37]
A
I couldn't agree more. Well, the Mavs were the next team on our list, and you just made the key case. I. I'm probably hanging around if I'm the Mavs and not doing anything either way. And I could probably make the play in, team the play in with Kyrie back and get Flag. All I care about is Flag. I just want Flag to be in a good situation, gets it, be in the right kind of games. They're not going to be bad enough to tank ever, unless they started shutting guys down right now, which I don't think they're going to do. And if anything, Kyrie's coming back and AD might be back in mid March, so I. I could be. I'm just. I don't think I'm doing anything there. There was a moment a couple weeks ago, really, like, they should trade PJ Washington. They should trade Gaffer.
- [59:18]
B
They can't.
- [59:19]
A
Oh, that's right. They can't trade P.J. washington.
- [59:21]
B
Yeah. He's going to be on the team. Yeah.
- [59:23]
A
Gafford, Marshall, they could trade Thompson if anyone wants them.
- [59:26]
B
Right. Marshall's really good. Like, I. I would try to hold on to him as best you can, but Gafford. Yeah, I think, like, could make sense. If they want to trade anybody. He's a player who could appeal. We, you know, we talked about a lot of teams who could use a little extra center depth. Yeah. Who could use a little extra bounce at that position. That could be useful. I don't know. I think I'm just kind of ready for the AD era to be over. And I don't say that coming from a place of, like, over, like, he.
- [59:50]
A
Has to leave the country.
- [59:53]
B
You know, we need to, you know.
- [59:54]
A
Eject him or he's going to be in NBA Europe. Moving him out of the league.
- [59:59]
B
Someone needs to cut the ribbon. You know, when Paris comes around.
- [60:02]
A
All right, we'll have him do it.
- [60:03]
B
I just. I like the idea of a Kyrie Irving, Anthony Davis version of this team for the last couple of weeks of the season, potentially does not excite me very much. And the idea, especially if that now becomes you're welcoming that team and being beholden to AD's next contract. I don't. I think the Mavericks have to run from that possibility basically as fast as they can.
- [60:25]
A
I just disagree. I'm looking at it like they're four back from the nine seed. Let's go.
- [60:31]
B
Think of all we can do with that nine seed.
- [60:34]
A
Jesus Christ.
- [60:35]
B
Like, what are we playing? You're telling me it's all about Cooper, Flag and Now you're like let's chase the nine seed.
- [60:40]
A
I know. I don't know what they do. Well, they're not going to tell Cooper Flag to stop playing. And he's an additive really good player. Right. So you can't really tank Cooper Flag.
- [60:48]
B
I mean he's really good already. Max Christie is having a really nice season. Like they got stuff going on there. It's just all stuff that should be.
- [60:55]
A
Centered around watching them.
- [60:57]
B
I don't mind watching. I just like every, every decision they make should be what team are we going to be two to three years from now? And not who are we going to be by April of this year.
- [61:06]
A
Clippers we don't need to discuss because it feels like they've figured it out. So that's why they weren't on the list. They last 15 games, third net rating, they're 132 and you know, it all depends. Can they just. Kawaii, can they keep them on the court doing this for the next four months, three months, two months, however long their season is going to be and if they do that, they're going to be good. There's no trade. They're not going to trade Zubots, they're. John Collins is an expiring. I don't know what you're getting back. If they wanted to go nuts and get Michael Porter Jr. The last team I wanted to talk about quickly is okc and just like is there, is there a move for.
- [61:46]
B
Them but what do they need?
- [61:48]
A
A notoriously patient Sam Presti to to his anti detriment to do his championship validation to to his title as best GM in the league. Could they get, could they get Murphy? Could they actually do the Godfather offer?
- [62:10]
B
Yeah.
- [62:11]
A
Could you take Dort, Caruso and Kason Wallace and say we only need two of these guys. A.J. mitchell can get more minutes and we could add Murphy to this. Could you. Dort has a team option next year at 18, Caruso is tied down for a couple of years and if you're the Pelicans and you could turn, let's say they get Dort back. Let's say they get four first round picks. The OKC has a million of them. They get Troy Murphy, then they take Dortmund, they trade him to the Pistons for Lavert, two more for like they could turn Murphy into seven picks potentially if they got the right OKC package back. And honestly if I were them, I would think about it if you're the Thunder. I, I, I would think about it if I was everybody. If I'm the Thunder And I could, I'm basically not losing anything with the defense I have because I still have two of my guys left. But now I'm adding this other piece that gives me insurance and shooting and yes, all these things that could potentially play in crunch time and can guard different players. And if I'm the Pelicans, it's like, well, what's the point of having Troy Murphy? We're not going to be good for three, four years and then he'll probably leave. And then if I'm the Pistons and I could get my hands on one of those dudes, that's exactly what they need. So I don't know. I, I, I, I'm not convinced OKC is going to stand pat, is my point.
- [63:33]
B
I think they have a lot of reason to talk themselves into standing pat. Right. There's still the best team in the Western Conference. They still have everything at their disposal. I think you could make a pretty strong argument that what they need most is the best, healthiest version of Jalen Williams they can get. And he's been pretty up and down all year and who knows if that's going to happen this year. Right. Maybe the Hand will just be in such a state where he's a little more inconsistent than they need him to be. But I think you're right about the market for Trey Murphy, which if you are New Orleans, yeah, they're not going to be good in the near term future to make the most of someone like Murphy. He's also so good and so young that they don't have to trade him. And so what they should be waiting for, if you're the Pelicans and to just kind of like set the, you know, the trade machine market, it needs to be an overwhelming offer. It needs to be something that convinces the Pelicans to give up a player who could be a part of their next core if they just decide to keep him around. And this is kind of what it takes. It's like an overwhelming amount of picks that make you stop and say, holy shit. Like, maybe we just have to take this windfall from a team like okc, even if it means giving the defending champions really like the one kind of knockdown shooter they don't have.
- [64:42]
A
Yeah, it's a 140 cents on the dollar trade. And I think if you go back and you look at the history of these trades and we, you know, there's been, we have such sample size now with all of these type of trades. Like, should you trade for a superstar? What about a trade like this, the one thing that seems to work over and over again is overpay me with picks for a guy that I probably wasn't going to win the title with anyway. Right. And like even the Bain and Bridges trades, if you just go to the fan bases or the front offices would be those teams right now and you're like, would you do that one again? They'd be like, yep, totally would. Or even what they got for Durant for the net, Scott, initially, like.
- [65:25]
B
Right.
- [65:25]
A
I don't know. I just think when you're getting too many assets for a guy, you got to think about it. And it's not like they're trading one of the 10 best guys in the league. This is a really, really good player who might make some all star teams. I don't think he's an all NBA player.
- [65:38]
B
No.
- [65:39]
A
And if I could turn him into four first round picks and then an asset that I could flip for more picks, I'm doing it.
- [65:46]
B
I mean, he might end up in that very overqualified role player who never makes an all star team kind of category. That's sort of like where he slots in right now.
- [65:53]
A
Yeah.
- [65:54]
B
And there's a weird, maybe this is just me like overthinking it from OKC's perspective, but there's this thing happening where they are so conservative in their decision making. I don't see the Thunder making the swing with all of these picks. To get another huge high usage star in the door. Right. To change the makeup of the team like that feels antithetical to everything that they're about. And so if you're not going to make that move, if you're not going to package all these picks for a traditional star in the most straightforward sense, then what are you going to use it for if not overpaying in a deal like this? Right. Convincing someone to get the exact supporting player who you think can help your team. And maybe it's that, maybe it's the Thunder. Like, like, like. But don't love Trey Murphy enough to make that kind of godfather offer. I would understand that. Or maybe it's they're, you know, so wary of the financial implications with all of these young guys coming up for new deals that they want to keep the picks to either draft new talent or, you know, flip those players into guys on cheaper contracts who are also very good. But it feels like it has to go somewhere. Right. Like you have to invest all this draft capital in one of those two places. And I think the argument for trading for someone like Trey Murphy is pretty compelling. Even with the Thunder already being as good as they are. Yeah.
- [67:06]
A
My thing is they have too many picks, so just start there. You can't. If it's a 15 man roster, at some point you have to consolidate the picks or use five to move up 10 spots in a draft or whatever you want to do. Like, at some point. It's just ridiculous.
- [67:20]
B
Yeah. And that's just overpaying in a different way. Right.
- [67:22]
A
Like you're.
- [67:23]
B
You're going to end up consolidating all of this into something and it's just a matter of picking your exact right spot.
- [67:28]
A
Yeah. Like if I'm the Pelicans and I can get A.J. mitchell and Dort or Caruso and picks and I can turn Dord into more picks, like, that's the kind of trade I would be thinking of, but that'd.
- [67:40]
B
Be pretty damn good.
- [67:40]
A
There's two teams in the league right now that can overpay for players. OkC in San Antonio, there's a player in Murphy who fits perfectly both of those teams, and those are the two teams competing with one another. So I don't know. I just feel like he's a chess piece that is going to really matter over these next two weeks because I can't imagine you can't fear the Pelicans. You can't say he's untouchable. You can't. I'm a huge.
- [68:06]
B
You can say it, but it's not true.
- [68:07]
A
I'm a huge fan of his. But he's not untouchable. He's not one of the best 15 players in the league. He's not. So you can't say he's untouchable.
- [68:15]
B
Yeah.
- [68:15]
A
So, like, to me, like, Tyrese Maxey is untouchable. If you're calling on me, I'm hanging up. If you're calling about Troy Murphy, Trey Murphy, I'm at least listening to what you're thinking.
- [68:27]
B
Yes, you're saying he's untouchable, but you're staying on the line.
- [68:31]
A
Do you notice how I almost did the old guy, Troy Murphy instead of Trey Murphy? Remember Troy Murphy?
- [68:37]
B
Boy, do I. You know what, What a time and place where Troy Murphy was just like an actual, somewhat impactful NBA player.
- [68:43]
A
He won a McKeskey Award. All right, Rob, what TV shows are we covering?
- [68:48]
B
Covering industry right now, which is on quite a heater to open the season. And the Pit. We love the Pit.
- [68:54]
C
What?
- [68:56]
A
I. I don't even know, sports wise, how to describe the first two industry episodes from a heater standpoint. Because it's like a heater, but it's a deranged heater. The Jon Snow episode was deranged. I was riveted. Like riveted. I thought it was so good. I don't really fully understand what happened, but I really loved it. That show's great.
- [69:20]
B
It's deranged in all the best ways. It's fucking mean, too. We need a little bit of that edge in the TV landscape right now, so I'm thrilled to have it back.
- [69:28]
A
Well, as you know, I'm rewatching Thrones in the sauna. Talk about your mean shows. That show's. That's about as mean as a show we've ever had. Anyway. All right, Rob Mahoney, Good times. Great to see you. We can watch and listen to it on the ringer NBA show as well as well as the prestige tv. Talk to you soon.
- [69:46]
B
Thanks, Bill.
- [69:47]
A
This episode is brought to you by Firehouse Subs. Who just dropped a game changing sandwich. The French dip. Literally one of my favorite sandwiches slash subs. Roast beef, caramelized onions, melty cheese, little freshly toasted garlic butter roll and the warm savory au jus. I've been eating these forever, since I lived on the east coast in la. I think to me, this versus the cheesesteak, the French dip, no contest. Way better. And I think it's really because of the au jus. I don't know anybody who doesn't like au jus. An elite game day sub. Fun to order, by the way, if you want it delivered. Because they usually put the au jus in the special little container you can pour it on. Knock yourself out. The French dip here for a limited time. I wish it was longer. Only at Firehouse Subs. Limited time at participating Firehouse subs restaurants while supplies last. This episode is brought to you by Velveeta. Game day is all about the tailgate spread. Listen, if you're going to have friends over, you absolutely 100% have to have a lot of things for them to eat. Everyone gets hungry. They could say they're not going to eat. But guess what? If you lay out the right kind of spread and you have some good cheesy, creamy melty dip with some good crackers, some chips, they're probably going to eat it. So why not do creamy shells and cheese melty Velveeta box and cheesy jarred quesos? I don't know. Why wouldn't you? They're taking down one taste bud at a time. Do yourself a favor, stock up on Velveeta before kickoff. Jumpstart your January goals at Whole Foods Market. They have hundreds of yellow sale tags for feel good savings across the store. Explore sales on sustainable wild caught sockeye salmon filets, organic boneless chicken breasts and many more quality finds to support your wellness journey. In fact, Whole Foods Market is the only certified organic national groceries shop. Whole Foods Market with so many ways to save all month long terms apply. Welcome to we kept the receipts presented by Taxact where we look back at our predictions and figure out who deserves a victory lap and who is completely off base. TaxAct helps you with actual receipts like the kind that you can use for tax deductions or credits and the ones that help you get your maximum refund every tax season. So I have two from the last year that'll be fun for this one good one, one bad one. The good one I went on Zach Lowe's podcast over the summer and we were picking our 2028 Olympic team and my dark horse for 12th spot was Con Knippel because I thought by the time we got to 28, the shooting, the way he moves without the ball, like they're going to need somebody like that. And I picked him to make that team even though I hadn't played an NBA game yet. That was great. The bad one was I think during the college football playoffs last year I made fun of some game management from Kurt Signetti, the Indiana coach, and was talking about oh, Belichick can't coach college this guy again. And what happens? Belichick sucked as a college coach and Signetti went 16 and oh won the national title. Tough one. We kept the receipts that was presented by Tax act this tax season. Make your max refund the one prediction that actually pays off. Visit taxact.com to learn more. Conditions apply. See taxact.com for details. All right, late morning Pacific time. The legend is here. The Mad Dog himself, Chris Russo. I wanted to talk big picture quarterback all time stuff and I used to love once Upon a time listening to you. You were always like in the all time context which has framed a lot of how I think about this stuff too. And I was talking to Sal on Sunday about Josh Allen, how this is now becoming a career unlike any quarterback career that we've had where you can make a Casey's a top 10 all time guy but he's never made a Super bowl and he's had all these terrible playoff losses and where does he fit into context? So you're a decade older than me, you've seen you remember The Staubach, Bradshaw. You even go back to the 60s a tiny bit. Where is he in the context of all the guys? Let's start there and then I want to dive into the history thing.
- [74:03]
D
Great to be on there, Bill. Yeah. You can't put him in top 10. That you can't do. Not yet. You know, I think it depends how far you want to go back. I mean, Don Shuler once said, you know, if you're going to rank these quarterbacks, don't forget about old Otto, meaning Otto Graham, who, you know, played in 10 straight championship games. And remember, Paul Brown never won a title in Cleveland after Graham retired. Graham retired after the 55 season and Brown never won another one. Yeah, because he wasn't the coach of the Browns in 64. They fired him, Modell did, and brought Blanton Collier in. And of course their quarterback was Frank Ryan. Not an all time great, but if you go back to that level, you got to put Graham in. If you want to go back to the modern day quarterback, that usually starts with, you know, guy who calls his own plays and football is a little shaped like it is today. That usually starts with Unitis.
- [74:54]
A
Yeah.
- [74:55]
D
And if you don't even want to start unanitis, that's too far. Well, then maybe you go. You know, since the merger, I've heard people say, well, let's start it since 1970. So it depends on the year that you want to begin at. But if you look at the guys, I mean, you know, you know, it's only going to be Brady, it's only going to be Montana. You're going to, you know, you got probably put Unattis in there. If you want to start with his era, quote unquote. You know, obviously I put Mahomes in. He's won three Super Bowls. So that's four right there. And so before you even begin, that is four. Then you got those next six or seven slots. You know, Manning, Starbuck won two titles.
- [75:36]
A
So you have Staubach up there. Okay.
- [75:38]
D
No Starbucks up there. He's an all time great, Lee Corso once told me. And he was at Maryland as an assistant coach and played against Unitis. And when he was at Florida State, Unitis was at Louisville. Said that Starbuck was the best college player we ever saw.
- [75:54]
A
Wow.
- [75:54]
D
So you got to keep that in mind too. And obviously Starbuck won the two titles. He got floored by the concussion, so he retired a little early. But I love him, you know, certainly, you know, Elway, you got to consider Elway. You got to also figure out what you're going to do with the championships, Bill, is that a prerequisite? If it is a prerequisite, well, you got to win a Super Bowl. Well, if that's the case, then, you know, you're in a tricky spot with Marino.
- [76:19]
A
I lose Marino, I lose Marino. He has to be in the top 10 for.
- [76:23]
D
Okay, so if you're going to do that, well, then. So the titles that helps Allen, you know, in the long picture, but, you know, those next five or six after the big four would be. Peyton would be, you know, Elway would be. Marino would be Bradshaw won four championships. He's very underrated, great quarterback.
- [76:44]
A
So you haven't mentioned Rogers yet.
- [76:46]
D
And you haven't mentioned Rogers yet. So you know, he's only one to one. Not great in the playoff games, but him. So that group, after the year, four, which to me, you can't go anywhere. You can't go. And I'm leaving Graham out because that's too far back for your purposes. So we're going to leave Grant out, Graham out. So if you look at it from Mahomes, Brady, Montana, Unitis, those four, those next six slots, if you're just going to narrow it down to a top 10, is dicey because you got Manning is 1, Elway 2, Starbuck 3, Bradshaw 4, Marino 5, Rodgers 6. You got a lot of guys here that you. That you got to put in the equation, and sooner or later you're going to. You know, I'm trying to think. There's a couple. There's a couple.
- [77:33]
A
Well, there's two more. You got Farve you didn't mention.
- [77:36]
D
Yeah, I wouldn't put Far in there. Too many turnovers and who's the other one?
- [77:39]
A
Too many. Far fell apart, really, in the 2000s. And then some people have Steve Young, I don't think he. I don't think he was good for long enough to put him in the combo.
- [77:49]
D
And I love Fouts, but I can't put Fouts in there. They were 3 and 4 in the playoffs, so I can't put.
- [77:54]
A
His stats are hilarious because that era was like you'd throw for 30 TDS and 28 picks and stuff like that, but.
- [78:00]
D
And he. And he played for the right Coach Coryell and everything else. But the problem with Fouts is he wasn't great in the postseason. He's had a couple of bad losses, so you can't put him in the top 10. He's a Hall of Famer, but you can't put him in a top 10. So you really have to figure out what your criteria is for the top 10. You want to see a lot of playoff wins. Would you like to see a Super bowl or two? Would you like to see some heroic performances even if the team loses? Which Allen, of course, he's got a couple of those. Couple of games against Mahomes.
- [78:31]
A
Right.
- [78:31]
D
So it depends on how you want to grade it after you get by the five or six guys. I think Elway is a guy that you got to put somewhere in that one to six level. You know, he won two Super Bowls. He was in. He was in five Super Bowls. One two has got the heroic drive.
- [78:48]
A
Yeah.
- [78:48]
D
John Wayne, fun to watch. I think you got to put Elway probably in that 5, 6 category too.
- [78:55]
A
Well, do you think like probably the most talented. Like if you're just talking about being able to move around and to the gun that he had combined with the late game stuff, you could argue that he might have been the best one and just was in probably the worst situation of any of the guys from the last 40 years.
- [79:14]
D
Quite possibly he had a couple of bad Super Bowls. And I'll tell you something, you're going to laugh at that. You have to, you know, take seriously. What are you going to do with Bart Starr? Nine and one in the playoffs. Super Bowl MVP and MVP in 1966 to the league. He was an MVP in the league in 66. He had a great year. Threw four touchdowns in the NFC Championship game against Dallas. Killed the Chiefs in a very pressure packed game.
- [79:41]
A
Yeah.
- [79:41]
D
And led the most heroic drive in the history of, of the NFL. And Ray Scott told me at Lambeau, it's the greatest mind. The longtime Packer broadcaster. It's the greatest mind over matter drive in the history of the NFL. And that was the Ice bowl when he went 68 yards in the last 438 of the game. After nine straight three and outs, 59 degree below zero temperatures with a wind chill factor you can't believe on the ice and Lambeau and he called all the own place.
- [80:17]
A
See, this is why I wanted to have you on because I knew you'd need barely any prep and you'd be, you'd be like AI. You might be AI. It's possible. I don't know. I don't know if you have an AI engine in your brain.
- [80:28]
D
But Starr gets. Starr's underrated because, you know, everybody remembers it's Lombardi. They think about all the, you know, it's like Bradshaw too. Bradshaw and Starr in a lot of ways. Bill are very underrated historically because they played with so many hall of Famers.
- [80:43]
A
Right.
- [80:43]
D
You know, Stallworth and Swann and Mike Webster and Franco. And then of course, the guys on defense and Starr, who's got, you know, Horning and Taylor and two or three offensive linemen and Nitsky and Willie Davis. And it goes on. Obviously, Willie Wood and Herb Adderley, they got a million hall of Famers. You almost forget about the quarterback. Elway doesn't have any hall of Famers. Randy Gratichar, he don't have any hall of Famers.
- [81:13]
A
Well, think about, remember the offense that he was like one of the first. We got to get this guy some help guys in the modern talk radio era.
- [81:20]
D
So Elway gets looked at higher because there's not a lot of great players around him. All right, well, sorry.
- [81:27]
A
Can we do this exercise differently? You laid out all the cases in the resume. Let's go. I test now.
- [81:34]
D
I test, I think Mahomes myself. He's only had one bad half in the history of his postseason playing. He's played a million games. It was not his fault in the two super bowl losses. His offensive line was a mess. He runs tremendously. He's won the three Super Bowls and been to five already. It's a very tricky era now with the parody and everything else.
- [82:01]
A
Yeah.
- [82:01]
D
I think for my money, Mahomes is the best quarterback I've ever seen.
- [82:06]
A
Most talented you've ever seen.
- [82:08]
D
If you know, I know Brady Now Montana, four Super Bowls, 11 touchdown passes, not one interception. So you got to, you know, that's pretty damn good. Four and owner, Super Bowl 11 TDs, not one pick. But for my money, where just. And a running ability has got a lot to do with it. He's a great runner. He's a tremendous competitor. He. Now, you might disagree, but he's the best quarterback I've ever seen. And I would take him over anybody. And that's saying a lot with Brady and with Montana and people like that. I would take Mahomes one myself.
- [82:43]
A
So the problem. And we're seeing this now in basketball because we're in the steroids era with basketball stats now, you just have. Everyone's stats are 20% higher than they should be because there's more shots, more possessions, three pointer, three point shooting. Just people are going up and down. And LeBron is averaging the same stats that he had when he was in Miami, you know, at the peak of his career, because the sport's totally different now. And there's no way he's the same player he was 12 years ago. So I look back at, like, I look at the stuff Elway and Marino did back when you could hit the shit out of quarterbacks, when, if you scrambled or if there was no sliding back then, if you scrambled, you were going to take a hit. If you were going to try to stay in bounds and lay one more in, they're going to knock your head off. Not to mention they could hit you after you threw the pass. They could hit your receivers over the middle. I think it's really hard to, like, could Elway do what Mahomes did if you just took him in a time machine and moved them 40 years? I feel like he could, yeah, absolutely.
- [83:41]
D
And Marino. The knock on Marino is he had a couple of really bad playoff games. Lost a playoff game to Stan Humphries with the chargers. He lost 3114 of the Patriots in 1985 at home games squish the fish.
- [83:56]
A
It's a bad one.
- [83:57]
D
That's a bad loss. I mean, you know, you and Marino young in your career, and you got. And you got them coming in. That's the year after they got to the super bowl and you got the Patriots coming in as a wild card team. You got a home game after you beat the Bears in a regular season. That was the only loss the bears at 85 had. And he. And he played badly in the game.
- [84:17]
A
By the way, the 95 in the game. The 95, Chargers 1, they're up 15. And is that like. It's Marty Schottenheimer. Marty Schottenheimer was usually the one that was blowing the playoff games, and it actually flipped it and they came back and that was probably Marino's last chance. I just know how he made me feel as a fan, where you felt like if you're going against them, you're like, oh, my God, this guy's going to kill us.
- [84:40]
D
Absolutely. Right. He, you know, you always were worried about him. He had that bad loss to Buffalo when Buffalo that year beat Houston in a great comeback. And then they went to Miami and won the championship game in Miami. Wasn't great in that game. Elway, I can't think of a championship game where. Or a playoff game where he was bad in the game. Super Bowls. Yes, Super Bowls, yes. Because he, you know, he didn't play. He played. He got ambushed by Washington. He was terrible against San Francisco. Now, listen, they were going to beat him anyway, but he was bad in the game.
- [85:12]
A
That's the thing. He probably went against a couple of the greatest teams in the history of the sport.
- [85:16]
D
That's fair, too. And The Giants in 86 were a great team, too.
- [85:19]
A
Yeah.
- [85:20]
D
So you got to give him a little break. See, the thing about Elway, that you like Bill and you're on top of this, you're doing a good job here. The thing about Elway, Think about Elway. You like when he lost the three Super Bowls, they were by far the inferior team.
- [85:35]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [85:36]
D
Now, I know Doug Williams beat him, but they scored 35 points in the second quarter. That's not Elway's fault.
- [85:41]
A
Well, in the case for always, like, name. How about this? Just randomly name the offensive players he was with in the first 10 years of his career. Most people would probably get like three of them.
- [85:51]
B
Really wasn't.
- [85:53]
D
Ricky Matiel, Mark Jackson, Sammy Winder. There's not a lot of guys, 100%.
- [85:59]
A
But then it all circles back and all of a sudden he's playing with McCaffrey, Rod Smith, Terrell Davis. So I still think pound for pound, just those two years is in the running for best running back I ever saw. Shannon Sharpe, he's in there too. Like, it's just all of a sudden.
- [86:14]
D
They weren't families later.
- [86:15]
B
Yeah.
- [86:16]
D
And he had Shanahan, too. You know, who was a better coach than Dan Reeves.
- [86:20]
A
Yeah. And it was a different. It was a different stage of his career. And I think he had taken a lot of hits. But that's why it's really hard to. I think about Elway. I mean, I'm sorry, Josh Allen, he's definitely a one on one with how he plays and how the physicality and the size that he has and all the different things he can do. So it's almost like you have to think about him in a basketball context where he's like the basketball player who can do everything and yet something's happening to him in these playoff games. And I think this. You know, you always try not to overreact. You're on a show, you're on first take on Wednesdays where one of the goals is to come in, coming hot with an angle. I don't think it's possible to overreact after that last game because I thought he was the reason they lost and this season parted for them in these playoffs and there's just no excuse for it. So now I don't know where to place them.
- [87:11]
D
Well, I disagree with you on the idea. And I'll do this tomorrow, too. To me, he left the field and they were up 27, 23 and on third and 11 with 2:38 to go. That defense allowed freaking Knicks to throw a 26 yard completion of Sutton.
- [87:31]
A
It's fair.
- [87:32]
D
Who. I could have thrown the ball. He was so wide open.
- [87:34]
A
Right.
- [87:35]
D
If they make a stop there, Denver punts and one first down wins the game.
- [87:41]
A
All right, But Cal Buffalo had the ball back. All they have to. They had a chance to score and he overthrew Knox to win the game. Basically.
- [87:48]
D
Yeah. But he also, if. If Hardeman makes a catch, which he should have made.
- [87:54]
A
Bad throw.
- [87:55]
D
He's got a. He ran a bad route, I guess. Yeah, you gotta catch. He had two hands on the ball. And if Cooks comes up with the ball, which he should have.
- [88:05]
A
Yeah, they would.
- [88:06]
D
They win a game.
- [88:07]
A
Well, so the Buffalo fans who are defending Allen are like, look at the supporting cast. He's only playing with a couple Pro bowl caliber guys that the front office let him down. I do think this is part of the sport now. If you're paying 55, 60 million a year for your quarterback, you're going to lose stuff in other spots. This is what happened to Brady in the 2010s, right? At some point, and Brady was even taking a little bit less than thias part. But at some point you have to pick and choose. You can't have. It's not like the 90s with the Cowboys where you could just be like, we need Deion Sanders. Let's get them. And you just get them. So you're going to be missing stuff all over the place. And for them it's like, all right, if we give him more weapons. Now I can't stop anybody on defense or maybe now I can't block, you know, so you're always giving up something. So I don't know if that flies for me.
- [88:55]
D
Now, now, now listen, I can't absolve him. The play before the half was bad.
- [89:00]
A
All right?
- [89:00]
D
He had Shakir there, he hit a ground, he threw a ground ball to him. That could have been a touchdown.
- [89:05]
A
Right?
- [89:05]
D
You mentioned the Knox play. I cannot absolve him on. So he wasn't great in the game. It was a little herky jerky. You are 1000% corre. But the defense cooks fumble at 7 3. A huge play in the game. After the interception, he fumbles there at the 32 yard line. That's a terrible fumble. You know. Can Cooks make the. Can he come down with the ball? Can he come down with the ball? Can he do that and not take and not get it taken away? Can Hardeman now, I don't know enough about the actual route. But everybody seems to think that he didn't cut it left enough and he went upfield instead of going to the sideline. But even if you say that he still should have caught the damn thing right, he catches the ball there. Buffalo's got a first down at the Denver 43 in overtime. They're going to win the game, right? They are going to win the game. And I'm not even going to talk about the overtime defense with the two pass interference kennel, we'll throw those out. Third and 11 with Knicks. Can they make sure they don't get a first down in that play. Is it possible that maybe you give him a 5 yard catch instead of a 26 yard catch, right. And not put and not put him in a tough spot? Now again, if your point is greatness on the Brady level means that you got to do everything in your power to overcome the team's weaknesses and you have to be the guiding light when everybody else is kind of falling back. Whether it's a receiver drop in the pass, whether it's a fumble by a running back, whether it's a defensive legs.
- [90:40]
A
To make a play with all that.
- [90:41]
D
Stuff, you got to figure out a way to win a game. That's what you're getting paid. 50. If that is Bill Simmons's argument about Josh Allen, I cannot argue. But I would also say he's up 27, 23, 238 to go in a game on third and 11. I dare you to think I wasn't. You were thinking about the fumble before the end of the half. At that point in the game at 27, 23 with 238 to go, I was not thinking about the fumble. Guys, make a stop. Peyton's going to punt. He's got three timeouts and he's got obviously his two minute warning. He's not going for it on fourth and 11. He's going to punt, hope his defense can make a stop, get the ball back and do his thing. I don't think he's going for it on 4th and 11 and the defense couldn't make a play so well. But I think there's blame to go all the way around with the loss for Buffalo.
- [91:30]
A
That was an underrated piece of the Brady Super Bowls and New England. There's a couple ones where if they don't get a stop for him to get him the ball back, they lose the game. Right? Atlanta. Atlanta who seems like they won the game with the Julio Jones catch. The game's over at that point. And this is after the Pats defense got the ball back with Hightower, all that stuff. But then they somehow made The Falcons go 10 yards backwards so they couldn't kick the football. They got a holding penalty, but they, they came through for Brady in a way that Buffalo's defense never did.
- [92:00]
D
That's a very good point.
- [92:01]
A
And then the Seattle one was the other one. They're down 10, Brady scores two touchdown Dr. But they also stop Seattle to get the ball back. And if they don't, they don't win that one either.
- [92:10]
D
And that's Super Bowls. How about a couple of times in the playoffs? Brady got a break of all time. And Troy Brown caused that fumble in the San Diego game.
- [92:17]
A
Right.
- [92:17]
D
Well, he.
- [92:19]
A
Forward offsides was probably the biggest break.
- [92:21]
D
There's another one. You know, Ford was offsides, which, which was an interception to end the game. So. Yes, a lot of this sometimes is happenstance. And for whatever the reason, the Bills themselves, the team, the franchise, you know, it's almost like they're cursed. I know nobody has had the kind of losses that they have had since 1990 in Big Spot or even going back a year before Cincinnati when they beat him. They've had incredible losses. That Norwood missed field goal, the other three in the Super Bowl, Music City, Barrick two or three Mahomes two or three times. I mean, they've had so many bad ones. And this is one that is in line with the Bill's history. There is a black cloud over that franchise. Minnesota has not had as many of these chances as Buffaloes had. You know, they had the Gary Anderson missed field goal against Atlanta when they were 15 and 1, but they haven't as many. They haven't. And every time they played in the super bowl, they got killed. I mean, Buffalo should have beat the Giants. I mean, so from. It's incredible that this franchise just can't get out of its own way when the money and everything is in the middle of the table. And Allen is now part of that because he can't win these games either.
- [93:36]
A
Yeah, and you and I have both been in that position as fans because I was certainly there at the Red Sox and even like wrote column after column and books about it about what it was like to just feel like you're just cursed with your team. Do you, do you want to pass this team down to your kids? Should you just get out? Should you have a sports bet? You were. You, you were in a similar spot with the Giants. With the Giants for a while where it's like, is this going to happen in my lifetime. And that what's happening in the Bills I think is as dark as anything that's happened since the Red Sox. I think I still feel like the Red Sox for going 86 years and cold weather New England and all the history of coming up close and falling short and it just was in our DNA and it feels like it's in the DNA now. For the Buffalo fans, I think there's some.
- [94:24]
D
Now remember with the Red Sox you had the Celtics who won all those championships.
- [94:27]
A
True.
- [94:28]
D
You know you can chronicle them. You also had the patriots who won.
- [94:31]
A
In 01 with Bobby or we had a couple cups.
- [94:33]
D
Yeah. You know, Buffalo doesn't have any other teams. This is it. Yeah, they don't have any other teams. There's no baseball team. The Sabres.
- [94:41]
B
All right.
- [94:41]
D
But they haven't won a Stanley Cup. They've been close, but they haven't won and they have no NBA team. Now after the, you know, the Braves left to San Diego.
- [94:49]
A
Right.
- [94:49]
D
So from that standpoint that this is it, this is their franchise. At least in a place like Boston, you know you have some other franchises. You the huge Celtic fan, you got all those. You got how many champions are 20. How many, how many? How many you got?
- [95:04]
A
Well, even after we lie 18, I think 18 now that we have like when we had. We lost to the bears the 45 to 10 game, whatever that the 46 to 10 and then we had a cocaine scandal two days later but we immediately moved to the 86 Celtics and then Roger Clement and we. And we had at least other stuff talk about. You're right. So the. I think Buffalo is number one. It's weird because the Browns fans have to be heard from as well. They at least had the LeBron Cavs thing but in a way it's almost worse to have this many where you come close and you have all these horrible losses. The Browns have just been irrelevant and not mattered which and just futile.
- [95:44]
D
Which is almost going to be in Buffalo for a while. They're going to have a few more of these opportunities and they may use some more of them because he's still young enough that stadium will give him a little juice next year. You know, they, they, they made, they made McDermott the scapegoat. But you know, they get somebody else in there, they're going to be a competitive team. I mean it's not like the Bills, the division stinks, the jets stink, Miami stinks. You know, the Patriots now they're going.
- [96:09]
A
To have to deal with.
- [96:09]
D
But you you get the idea. The Bills are going to be a playoff team for the next five, six years. When you have a quarterback this good now, now where you and I want to rank him is a different argument. But when you have a quarterback, he is a hall of Famer. When you have a quarterback this good, you're going to be good every year. In the NFL there's very rare where you have a great quarterback. Where you have, you know you're going to be bad. You know, once in a while Mahomes team gets hurt, injuries, it doesn't click for you. You might go 6 and 11, but most of the time when your quarterback is this good, you're a playoff team year after year after year. Which means that he still has a chance to redeem himself and win that championship. You know, we said this a lot about Manning for a long period of time in his career, eight years before he finally won that one against the Bears. So he lost a lot of brutal games before he beat the Bears and then won the other one there at Denver against Carolina.
- [96:59]
A
Yeah, Manning's playoff history is pretty checkered. He had a lot of like as big favorites blowing games and choke jobs at home. But then that, you know, you win one super bowl, that stuff washes away. Who's your number one? This guy was great. But something was missing when it really mattered. Athlete in any sport that's a good in any sport. Any sport you can pick baseball, football, basketball, hockey. Just somebody that had everything and it couldn't get there.
- [97:26]
D
I'm not a fan of his, but Harden is a perfect example. I mean hardness terrible in a big game. He's go look at his games in elimination games. Yeah, I mean I know I used to talk to Van Gundy about this all the time. He thought he was better than Jerry West. No, he's not better than Jerry west.
- [97:41]
A
Now he's stuck with him. His punishment was to have to coach.
- [97:44]
D
Him and how he's got to deal with him. Harden. I would never trust Harden in the big game.
- [97:48]
A
You could see it in the game seven last year. He wouldn't even look at the rim.
- [97:51]
D
Terrible.
- [97:52]
A
How about a Game 7?
- [97:53]
D
When he was with Philadelphia against the Celtics that one year in Game 7, he was terrible. There's so many examples of Harden and he's a hall of famer and everybody thinks he's an all time great because.
- [98:03]
A
Karl Malone was a legitimate one. Karl Malone, you could see it on his face as the game got bigger and bigger and he just. And people now we live in this stats Era where you could go back 50 years later and be like, whoa, are we sure he wasn't better than Tim Duncan? It's like, no, we're sure he wasn't. You would have much rather had Tim Duncan. Trust me. We were there.
- [98:23]
D
You feel that way about Stockton. You did not feel away. You knew Stockton was. He's gutty. Was going to figure out a way to beat you, was going to overachieve with his talent. Malone, I think at times now he had to go up against Jordan, but I think at times the moment became a little too big for him. You can feel it. I do think. I think there's. And I think you definitely can make the case for Wilt.
- [98:47]
B
Yeah.
- [98:47]
A
So you were, you were barely there for Wilt, but you, you got to see some of it. It was when you're getting into sports. But I mean, Wilt, all the, all the, Everything written said Wilt was the number one guy like this, that something would happen to him in these games.
- [99:02]
D
Well, he did win the two championships and he did anchor two teams that were the two greatest, arguably teams of all time. That 66 team.
- [99:11]
A
Yeah.
- [99:11]
D
With. With that beat the Celtics finally. And then of course, the 71, 72 Lakers.
- [99:15]
A
That 33 game winter. Yeah.
- [99:17]
D
So. So you can argue that, but he, he, you know, he couldn't make his free throws. Took himself out of Game 7 against Russell in his last game.
- [99:25]
C
Yeah.
- [99:25]
D
Looked around the arena before Willis Reed, Game seven at the Garden. Hey, is Willis playing tonight? Geez. Will you. Will Chamberlain. Who gives a crap? If he's playing and he's got one leg, you'll be fine. Yeah, yeah, go ahead. You know, as Havocek once told me at a Rollins College dinner, where he was at and I was the mc.
- [99:42]
C
Wow.
- [99:43]
D
That game seven the following year when Philly played the Celtics and they were trying to go back to back, Philly was up three games to one that year. And in game seven in Philadelphia, Wilt did not take any shots essentially in the second half because he was in foul trouble and he didn't want to get called for an opportunity.
- [100:05]
A
He had that dumb streak about he never wanted to foul out of a game.
- [100:08]
D
He never fouled out of a game, and he never wanted to be in a situation where he fouled out of the game. So he got very passive. And Boston beat him in Game 7 when they were down 31 in that series. Remember, the Celtics had lost the Sixers. You know, I'm not telling you anything you don't know. They lost the Sixers in 66, 67. And then in 67, 68, Phillies up 3:1, right. And Wilt goes quiet at the end of Game 7 against Russell, doesn't want to shoot the ball. So I think that Wilt has got a little bit of that aspect to him where in a big moment, life on the line, you get a little nervous. Yellow nurse.
- [100:44]
A
I'm gonna make you laugh. Aaron Judge.
- [100:51]
D
He helped himself last year in that Toronto game. You know, when he was done, he helped himself. I. There's a little of that in Judge. Yeah.
- [100:58]
A
I will say I thought Clemens, I thought Clemens had it in him for a while. I thought especially on the Red Sox, I thought in the 90s, I think go sideways on him a little bit.
- [101:10]
D
Clements had some big moments. Later on he won a championship for the Yankees. So a couple of championships.
- [101:15]
A
Shed it.
- [101:17]
D
He shed it. Now he was on a great Yankees teams, but he 99 and 2000. So I. You give Clemens. But I think there's some truth to that. I tell you the one guy that you're going to think I'm crazy, that I say this all the time and the media loves him. That is if you look at him in the postseason, he's atrocious. And that's Clayton Kershaw.
- [101:38]
A
Well, I mean, I think the Dodger fans. I was at the 18 inning game when he had to come in and this year, oh, wow, the World Series.
- [101:47]
D
Game, he was lucky. That 32 pitch, he swung on it. That was ball four.
- [101:52]
A
Well, that's the thing. He came in and it was, it was a legendary game even before it went 18. And he brought, they brought him in and you could feel it in the stands. The Dodger fans were like, no, no, please, no, no, no. We don't need to add another one to his legacy here, please.
- [102:08]
D
4, 4, 4, 45 ERA in a postseason and a 24 ERA in a regular season. People don't like to talk about that with Kershaw, but he in a. He's a little overrated in these big games.
- [102:21]
A
Right.
- [102:21]
D
A lot of times you don't want to. And he had a lot of terrible moments. That's just reality. You know, people don't like you to say that because everybody loves Kershaw, but that is fact.
- [102:30]
A
That's one of the things I really miss about whatever baseball has turned into is these start. You had one with Baumgartner. The starters that are just like, I would bet my life this guy's coming through tonight because now nobody's allowed. That was why the Yamamoto thing was so Fun. The guy was like, wait, do we need. Do you need me again? I'll come back. Let me, let me save another game for you guys. But that was so old school because that's what we grew up with. I grew up with Jack morris just going 10 in a game seven, you know, and these guys were like, get on my back, I got you.
- [103:00]
D
And that's why I kill Scuba all the time. Game five in Seattle. Six innings, 98, 99 pitches. He took himself out of the game with a 1 nothing lead. Finnegan comes in, gives up a run in his seventh inning, and then they lose the game in a 14th inning and the Tiger season is over. I understand he's a free agent. And you know Boris, who knows? He tells them, hey, your money is more important in game five of an ALDS and you're the best pitcher in baseball. And it's one nothing. Tigers in the sixth inning, seventh inning, stay in the game. 98 pitches, stay in the game. And Scubal took. And A.J. hinch didn't take him out. Scuba took himself out. You think Bob Gibson would have done that? How about Randy Johnson? You think Smoltz Schilling? How about Randy Johnson? You think Randy Johnson, who pitched many back to back games in a postseason you think he's taking himself out of? How about Tom Seaver? You think Tom Seaver in that spot's taking him? Hey, going to Gil Hodges, put somebody else in. That really, really bothered me. That really bothered me.
- [104:03]
A
We had that with Clemens game six, 86 when he got taken out and they said he had a blister and it was. Yeah, we never know who was right. And then John McNamara died. But each guy had a different version of the story. All I know is he came out of the game.
- [104:16]
D
I did. And then of course, McNamara, McNamara to his grave, said Clemens assed out. And Clemens says, not true. So who knows? But yes, that is. That's a famous one. That's a good job, Bill. That's a famous game 6.
- [104:28]
A
Do you ever think about if a game had swung, when you really cared about the sports, sports the most when you were a kid, if a game had swung, would you be different as a person, as a personality? Like, I always feel like if the Red Sox had won game 686, I just might be a fundamentally different person. I don't even know if I'd be doing this. Do you have one of those where you're like, wow, that might have been a sliding doors for me in life.
- [104:52]
D
That's a very good one. I Think if Starr doesn't sneak and get the touchdown in 67. I was a Packer fan, young kid, love Lombardi. I think if they got stopped in that situation, I wouldn't have had the same love for Lombardi and Starr and all those Packer teams. I think that's one that went in my positive direction, not the other way.
- [105:11]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did the Giants have a bad one?
- [105:14]
D
Yeah. 93 when they were.
- [105:18]
A
You're an adult at that point though.
- [105:20]
D
Yeah, I'm an adult. 93 when they went 103 and 59 and the Braves went 104 and 58. The last great pennant race, remember? 94 they did. They had no season and 95 they came back with wild card.
- [105:36]
A
Yeah.
- [105:37]
D
93 was the last great American pennant race. And the Giants, who blew an eight and a half game lead, won 15 of their last 17 to get even. If they blew an eight and a half game Lead, took a three and a half, fell three and a half back and got the game and tied last day of the season in Game 162. And we lost 13 to 1 to the Dodgers at Dodger Stadium and the Braves beat Colorado to win the pennant. That one, that one really pained me.
- [106:06]
A
Well, that was 78 Red Sox blowing the 14 game lead, then rallying back and tying it and then losing anyway, very similar.
- [106:14]
D
And the Red Sox won 99 that year and the Yankees won 100. So it was the first to 100. And that's still based on the regular season and the fact they battled from April 1st. That is still the most significant game I've ever seen. Red Sox, Yankees, Fenway, 78. It was very much like the regular year. Red Sox slid first half of the year, two nothing through six, 10 hits. The home run fell behind by Moore and then clawed and battled and scratched. And then of course, jazz pops up a 21 in the 9th off gossage and I lose the game 5, 4, you know, so that to me, Pinel.
- [106:50]
A
And the sun stabbing at a bouncing ball gets it.
- [106:54]
D
Lynn hit it down there. Yeah. That game has got so much drama to it. Yom Kippur.
- [107:01]
A
Oh, yeah. We didn't have school that day.
- [107:03]
D
That was Yom Kippur, early October of. Of 78. 5, 4. Yankees went on no school and the Yankees won a championship that year. They beat the Royals and they beat the Dodgers. That game, those innings were for the World Series. Those two or three innings. That was one of the great games ever seen.
- [107:24]
A
You have to go to prepare to do your show soon. I Had one Knicks question for you and then we can do this whenever. I'll come on your show whenever you want. Knicks are 2 and 9 in their last 11. This was a conference that had the season parted. Halberton's out, Tatum's out. They clearly had. They're built to win this year and they're going backwards and they look miserable together. So what's going on?
- [107:50]
D
Yeah, well, number one, does anybody give a crap about that stupid Champions cup, whatever they called it? And the Knicks. And the Knicks beat the spurs. And the argument was, should we put a banner up? Really? We're going to do something as dumb as that for a regular season tournament that nobody cares about. And now the Knicks, since that moment in whenever it was December, have been absolutely awful. And I was one that thought Thibodeau got a terrible deal. Dolan just woke up one day and decided he didn't want Thibodeau coaching him, coaching his team. And Leon Rose got stuck and he didn't have a list. And that's why he went to the Jason kids of the world, because he didn't have a list. He was not prepared for it and he was scrambling. And so he got his sixth choice in Mike Brown. And I'm not knocking Mike Brown. But the bottom line is Thibodeau did not deserve this. And Knicks lost last night, which I did not see because I was watching the college game. But the Knick loss last night to Dallas, when they're down 28 at the half to a maverick team that's got nobody, you know, no Davis, no kyrie Irving or 18 year old kid in flag PJ. Washington's out and so is Gafford. And the Knicks lose by 28 points to the Dallas Mavericks. And everybody played. I mean, you got to be kidding. After they had been playing poorly. That's as bad a loss. And Thibodeau never had a loss like that where they didn't. They gave up 75 points in the first 75, 48. I mean, I mean that's ridiculous. And I'm not blaming Mike Brown. But this, to me, Dolan deserves this. He's the one who wanted Thibodeau out. He couldn't stand looking at him anymore. Thibodeau got a terrible deal, wasn't he? Didn't they got beat by Indiana. Indiana was better than the Knicks. And Halbert made that incredible shot to force the first game, one overtime when it bounced 9 million feet in the air and somehow went in. And Knicks lost a game at ot. Changed the whole Series. I mean, I really feel, you know, that was a move that was just not fair and unnecessary. And again, I'm not trying to kill Mike Brown, but the Knicks deserve what they get. And the fact that the Celtics without Tatum have been this good, give that head coach a lot of credit. And Jaylen Brown, that is a tremendous job. This is a year you could completely write off if you were a Celtics fan. You know what, we've had a good run.
- [110:05]
A
I did, I did it the first week. I was like, let's, we gotta trade Derrick White. This is gonna be a bad season. Let's keep the.
- [110:11]
D
And as it turns out, what are they about 15 games over 530 and 15.
- [110:15]
A
Something like that. Second, second in net rating. They're 26 and 16. They're in the two seed. And Tatum, he had a very conspicuous workout yesterday. He's definitely coming back soon.
- [110:26]
D
I agree.
- [110:26]
A
So you're adding that to this, to everything they have going. They're not gonna make a trade. Deadline move. I think he's the deadline move. But Detroit, Detroit's really good though. I just like, I gotta shout them out. That's a really, that's an old school, tough ass Pistons team.
- [110:40]
D
I gotta see Detroit make baskets. Last six minutes of a playoff game in a close spot. Yeah, I got to see yesterday said, yeah, I gotta see them make some baskets, though. I. In a. In games on the line in the postseason. Something they could not do last year against the Knicks. Brunson made the baskets and they didn't have anybody. I gotta see them make baskets in that kind of spot. But I agree with you, they're tough, they're physical. Cunningham's a very good player. You know, they take their personality at Bickerstaff and they, and they're hungry. Detroit, it means something to Detroit to finish with the best record. They're hungry. They're hungry.
- [111:16]
A
Yeah. There's a physicality and an aggressiveness to them that's going to be great in the playoffs. And actually, honestly, bad for the Knicks because. And all the Knicks fans I know are really turning on towns now. They're like this, this is the guy.
- [111:29]
D
I was terrified.
- [111:30]
A
I was terrified we were going to get this version of this guy and now we're seeing him. All right, you're going to read a.
- [111:36]
D
Lot about Giannis now because the Knicks are going to be desperate and you're going to, you know, the Bucks are bad and I know Giannis said he wants to stay there and Doc Rivers has said he's going nowhere, but you're going to hear whether it's true or not. By the deadline. You're going to hear a lot of Giannis to the Knicks stuff. Whether the Knicks could ever pull off a trade like that, we can hear a lot of that.
- [111:54]
A
Well, the problem is they traded all of their first round picks for the 53rd best guy in the league. I don't know if they would do that one over again. And Mikhail Bridges, Mikhail Bridges, he's fine. But they basically, that was their Giannis chance and they traded it for Bridges.
- [112:09]
D
Yeah, that was a terrible trade by Rose.
- [112:11]
A
Terrible trade. That was a tough, terrible trade.
- [112:13]
D
All right, Bridges is a decent player, but you can't give up five draft picks for a decent player. You got to give up five draft picks for a Hall of Famer, and he's not a Hall of Famer.
- [112:21]
A
The problem is you do a trade like that, and I didn't mind the trade, but it was like, this is. You have no outs now, this is your team. You're doing this. You, you, this is. You're stuck with this.
- [112:30]
D
And if it doesn't work, this might be one of those teams that will be, you know, a 50 win team for the next three, four years. But always, never on that top shelf. You know, sort of be a top four, top five team, which is purgatory. You got to get past the top four, top five. Getting that last jump, Bill, as you know, from, you know, pretty decent to pretty good. And then a championship level with the same group. That is very different. Portland never did it with Adelman. That is a very, very. And they never, you know, they had Duckworth and they had Terry Porter and, you know, they never, they never were able to pull that off.
- [113:07]
A
How about the Suns in the 2000s? They had seven years there. Just could never.
- [113:12]
D
Good example. Could never get over.
- [113:14]
A
Yeah, we see it happen.
- [113:16]
D
They did lose to the Bulls that one year, you know, so you get a little break there. But I'd be a little worried about the Knicks historic. I'd be a little worried about the Knicks. And I tell you right now, Dolan deserves it. After he did the Thibodeau. He deserves it. To underachieve. He fired Thibodeau thinking he was going to get to the NBA final.
- [113:32]
B
What?
- [113:33]
D
Yeah, you don't do that. He did not deserve that decision. And because of that, I've been down on the Knicks. I felt bad for him.
- [113:42]
A
The great Chris Russo, you can hear him on Mad Dog radio and Sirius. Say hi to. Are you doing first take tomorrow?
- [113:48]
D
Yes, I am. I will say hi to Stephen for you.
- [113:50]
A
And please say hi to my guy, Shriggs Trigger.
- [113:54]
D
Yes, of course I will. He's there tomorrow.
- [113:56]
A
Yeah, I think we're like. We're like his two surrogate media fathers.
- [114:00]
D
I know. He's a big. He loves you, too. Yeah, he's a big fan. I know. He grew up with us. He grew up with us.
- [114:06]
A
He grew up with us. All right, let me know.
- [114:08]
D
And I saw you a couple weeks ago with Kettleman. You did a great job. I saw you.
- [114:11]
A
Oh, thank you. Well, let me know if you need me on the show. I'm here for you.
- [114:14]
D
I will, Billy. I'll keep in touch with.
- [114:16]
A
Thank you, Chris.
- [114:17]
D
You got it.
- [114:17]
A
This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Without Internet, you wouldn't be able to hear my beautiful voice right now, and businesses wouldn't be able to stay connected the way they need. What if I told you that business owners can get free business Internet advantage forever? When you add four or more mobile lines, Spectrum Business keeps you connected seamlessly with Internet, advanced wi, fi, phone, TV and mobile services, all in packages tailored to your business budget. No contracts, no added fees. Find out how you can get free Spectrum Business Internet forever@spectrum.com free for life. That's where you go. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. If you've ever hired for your small business, you know how important it is to find the right person. That's why LinkedIn Jobs is stepping things up with their new AI assistant. So you can feel confident you're finding top talent that you can't find anywhere else. The best part is that those great candidates are already on LinkedIn. In fact, employees hired through LinkedIn are 30% more likely to stick around for at least a year compared to those hired through the leading competitor. Higher rate the first time. Post your job for free@LinkedIn.com Simmons. Then promote it to use LinkedIn Jobs new AI assistant, making it easier and faster to find top candidates. That's LinkedIn.com Simmons to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. All right, last but not least, a year, one ringer guy, Danny Kelly. You can find him on the Ringer fantasy football show as well as on our website theringer.com as well. He's also a diehard Seahawks fan. I made a horrible error on Sunday's podcast. I just want to talk it out. I feel like I've been in a really good spot with the Seattle sports fan bases. Sunday Night, doing a live pod on Netflix. Lot of stuff going. Coming up. Bears, Rams, heads, heads spinning, all these different directions. And we're talking about super bowl matchups. And I say the Seahawks never won a Super Bowl.
- [116:14]
C
Right? Right.
- [116:15]
A
Now you could say I'm old. I would go with brain fart because obviously I know the Seahawks won a Super Bowl. I was writing for Grantland at the time. I was doing podcasts and writing about that super bowl year. I thoroughly enjoyed watching them kick Peyton Manning's ass. And if I had thought about it for a split second, I would have remembered they won. But I think I brain farted and mixed them up with the Mariners. So I'm here to ask for forgiveness.
- [116:38]
C
Well, I appreciate it. I'm not mad. If I was mad, I would say something like, the Seahawks defense, which could be counted among the best of all time, shut down the best offense the NFL has ever seen. That literal highest scoring offense and Peyton Manning most touchdown passes in a season. And the Seahawks defense completely shut them down in the Super Bowl. That's what I would say if I.
- [116:59]
A
Was mad, but I'm not mad.
- [117:00]
C
I understand.
- [117:00]
A
I also think I won money on that game.
- [117:03]
B
I don't know.
- [117:04]
C
How'd you forget that? Because that would have been. I just see it would have been. The Seahawks would have beaten Peyton Manning and then Tom Brady and back to back Super Bowls. Of course, that didn't happen. But yeah, that's. That's what the SEO. I got a lot of texts about this.
- [117:17]
A
I know. My station response for this stuff is, it is hard to host a podcast. You're not going to bat a thousand. Unfortunately. It's not like flying an airplane where if you have a screw up, you just. The plane crashes. You can just kind of get bass and save it. But yeah, I couldn't believe I was thinking afterwards. I was like, why did I say that? What happened to my brain? But then I realized the Rams, Bears and the Bills game probably broke my brain. I think that's fair. Well, so I've been texting with you and Mina about the Seahawks, really? Since the summer when I was like, I like the Seahawks to win the division. And we were talking about pros and cons and the season could not have worked out better. You had. I think you're the one that put the electromagnetic thing next to the Niners practice field. I don't know. We gotta check the security cam footage.
- [118:03]
C
I love this.
- [118:04]
A
You have that. You have the Niner season goes to hell. You have the Rams and Seahawks left. First of All. Is there animosity between Rams and Seahawks fans? Is this a feud like what do we have here?
- [118:16]
C
No, I think it's different. So there would be definitely animosity between Seahawks and 49ers.
- [118:21]
A
No question.
- [118:21]
C
That is like the biggest, longest rivalry I think in at least for the Seahawks point of view. The Rams have always just been a really tough team for the Seahawks to play. I think there's some grudging mutual respect between the two teams.
- [118:34]
A
I don't like grudging mutual respect.
- [118:35]
C
I know, I know. I would say it's not as fun. I think it's the 49ers thing is just, I mean, the Seahawk fans have been in absolute heaven the last two games. They played the 49ers their last two games and absolutely annihilated them both games. So that's been incredible. I would say it's a different dynamic with the Rams though. We hate the Rams, but it's not that primal, deep seated hatred. It's more just like we want to beat them.
- [119:00]
A
Got it. Well, ever since, so the season's evolving and it's like, ah, still nervous about Darnold. Then he's fine. Then it's time to get nervous again. Now it seems okay. The running game, frustrating all year there was always like, why isn't Kenneth Walker doing more? And then he looks awesome in the last game. The offense got really stagnant there for about six weeks in the second half of the season that looked like it was going to be the Achilles heel. And then they finally, I don't know, that part of it was special teams and just figuring out different ways to use Shaheed, which we had been texting about. Like, just use this guy. Figure out ways to give him the football. It feels like that's going better. And then the defense is really good. So why wouldn't they win the Super Bowl? What are. Give us here two things you're the most scared of other than Sam Darnold. Number one, what's two and three?
- [119:56]
C
I've been kind of hard on Sam Darnold this year. He did lead the NFL in turnover, so that's the big one. Honestly, with two, with, with the other ones, you know, Charbonnet got hurt. He has a torn acl. He's out for the year. He's been a big part of their offense in terms of they're really high leverage situations where they need a, they need a yard on third down or fourth down in the, in the red zone. He's been good in pass pro, which is important. Kenneth Walker's not nearly as good at pass pro, so that could be an effector. So I think that's one thing to worry about. And you know, generally speaking, just, I think offensively, making sure there's a spark there because some, there's some games where the offense just doesn't really click all that well. Yeah, I think I'm, I'm really confident in this defense, the defense going to give them a chance to win.
- [120:38]
A
Yeah.
- [120:39]
C
But I think it's like, honestly, just weird stuff happening for the offense that, that really worries me the most.
- [120:45]
A
There should be a special teams advantage.
- [120:47]
C
Yeah, I don't. He's been such a big, I mean, he's been huge. He, he, he's been a huge spark on special teams. He's been a huge spark. He's kind of like the Percy, the no drama Percy Harbin for their offense where he can create explosive plays on some of these gadget plays. He's really good in special teams and kickoffs and, and punt returns. So he's been a huge, huge bonus for them.
- [121:07]
A
It's frustrating for me as a Pats fan, cause I thought he would have been a perfect dad. And I think they probably felt Kyle Williams could do some of the Shaheed stuff at least with stretching the field. And they're good on special teams, at least for punt returns with Marcus Jones, so maybe that's why. But that was the trade when you made it, I was like, fuck, that's a good trade. That's kind of exactly what they need and he's perfect for them.
- [121:34]
C
I think there's been a little bit of consternation because they haven't incorporated him into their offense quite as much as people thought. You know, if you look at what Clint Kubiak did with him in New Orleans last year before he got hurt, he was a huge part of that off. He was, you know, getting deep every other play, every other game. He was creating like a big touchdown down the field. He hasn't really done that as much on offense, but he's been such a huge spark on special teams that I think people are, you know, totally happy. They want to keep him long term, all that stuff.
- [121:59]
A
Do you do the Rams have the kind of defense that could take out JSN or is he just going to get his eight catches for 110 yards?
- [122:07]
C
I think no, I don't think they have the shutdown defense to do that. I think, you know, and especially with what they do on play action, if they can get their run game going A little bit. They've always been really good at, you know, getting JSN behind the line, behind the second level of defense when they get play action rolling. And so I'm not too worried about that. I am worried. You know, the 6 defense is really good, but they did give up like 500 yards to Matt Stafford in the last game they played. I think the Rams just. The offense is really, really good. Yeah, I think just straight up McVeigh and Stafford is one of the scariest combinations I can think of on a football field. And Puka is really good. I just think that's kind of, you know, the big thing in this game is like, what can the Seahawks do? And the first time they met, the Seahawks pretty much shut down the Rams offense, or at least stymied them more than anybody else had to that point. And then in the second game, the Rams offense went absolutely nuclear. So I don't exactly know what we're going to expect from this game, but I think that's in this Rams matchup. The big worry I have is not necessarily JSN or shutting them down. It's just what is. What is Stafford going to look like in this game?
- [123:09]
A
Yeah. Especially coming off a terrible weather game that was just funky in every single respect. You must have been watching, like, dying for the Bears to win that game, I'm guessing.
- [123:19]
C
Yeah. Little bit.
- [123:20]
A
A little bit.
- [123:20]
C
Again, it's not the hatred with the 49ers. It's. It's kind of like a healthy fear of.
- [123:24]
A
Of.
- [123:25]
C
And again, I just don't want to play Stafford. He's so good.
- [123:28]
A
But a young, erratic Bears team. Yeah, I wish. Pretty shaky defense, not at home. Probably seemed like the perfect matchup.
- [123:37]
C
Yep.
- [123:37]
A
Yeah, I. I just don't think the Rams looked that good the last couple weeks. And I don't know how much of that was the Panthers game. You know, just a. Just weird. And I don't think the Rams played that well, but they still pulled it out. And then the Sunday night game, how cold it was, and the field has no whatever. I thought it was the weirdest Puka game I've probably watched where he just didn't feel like as present as he normally does in these games. I'm guessing in Seattle. What's the weather? Do we know?
- [124:06]
C
Oh, that's a good question. It's cold here right now. I don't know what it's supposed to be like on Sunday, but, yeah, it's been cold and clear here, so I think, you know, hopefully it'll be cold Again, I. I did think that the. It's gonna be like, 44 on 44.
- [124:21]
A
Yeah.
- [124:21]
C
That's not too cold. But I think the one thing you did notice a little bit about the. The Rams offense and that really cold game was it just didn't feel like they had anybody that was very explosive or fast. You know, Puka is more of a physical.
- [124:34]
A
Yes.
- [124:34]
C
You know, tough over the middle, run after the catch, you know, that kind of player, red zone threat. And, you know, Dante obviously is not super explosive at this point in his career, so that's maybe like, one variable we can talk about here.
- [124:46]
A
It's funny you talk. You mentioned that. Because I was thinking as I was watching the Bears game, thinking the Seahawks, it feels like a game you push everyone close and basically get super physical, and you're not really worried about them going over the top on you.
- [124:59]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [125:01]
A
Which I think you can do with the Seahawks. This is like the perfect type of team to do that with.
- [125:05]
C
The Seahawks have an incredible secondary, the way that they can match up with pretty much any personnel formation with their dime and nickel packages. You know, they have Nick Edmund, Warri, they have Devin Witherspoon. Those guys play like linebackers, but can cover, you know, like, safeties and corners and nickelbacks. And so it does give them a pretty unique schematic advantage. I saw this, I think, from the seat from the 49ers game the other day. The Seahawks had something like a 50% pressure rate on a 10% blitz rate.
- [125:36]
A
Ooh.
- [125:36]
C
So they. They just.
- [125:38]
A
Yeah, that's the sign of death for an offense.
- [125:40]
C
Yeah. And so if they can do that against the Shanahan team, you know, I'm feeling pretty good. Like, I think all Seahawks fans right now probably feel really good about where the team is. I think you've been saying this. This is a great chance for. For the Seattle, especially with kind of how the season has gone. But the big bad in the NFL to me, is the Rams. Like, they are the scary team. If you look at dvoa, it's Seahawks and Rams number one and number two by a mile. So this is. This is a big, big matchup. And obviously, there's a lot of history between these two teams and. And McVay knows the Seahawks, and, you know, I think McDonald was probably brought in to kind of, like, contend with McVay, so there's a lot of cool narratives with that. So, yeah, it's. It's going to be an awesome game.
- [126:19]
A
So we have home teams that have blown it at home in the title games.
- [126:23]
C
Oh, God.
- [126:24]
A
Ravens 1710 of the Chiefs. That was two years ago. Chiefs at home to the Bengals. That goofy 2021 game where I think Mahomes got concussed at halftime and Nobody admit it. 20, 20 bucks packers in Green Bay during the Bucks run when they.
- [126:43]
C
That was the Brady.
- [126:44]
A
Yeah, the Brady run.
- [126:45]
C
Yeah. Yeah.
- [126:46]
A
Then we really don't hit anything until 2018. Chiefs and Saints both lost at home to the Pats and Rams, and the Rams honestly should have won. And then it was like we did. The last one before that was 2012. Pats and Falcons both losing home. So, you know, being at home does help. Playing a team that's played three games in a row in the road, in the playoffs, I think I like that's a. When the Bucks were able to just win four straight and I. Were all four of them on the road. I can't remember.
- [127:15]
C
I think we had this quite a discussion the other day. I want to say one of them was at home.
- [127:20]
A
Yeah, but I think the first. Yeah, maybe the first one was. But yeah, just in general, it's always. It feels like an achievement. And I felt like the Rams really did look creaky the last couple of weeks. They were really lucky in that Bears game. The Bears are midfield in OT with momentum and felt like they were just getting 8 yards whenever they wanted. I don't. I still don't understand what they were doing on that play.
- [127:41]
C
Yeah, the. We had this discussion on after the game. It was like, basically we talked about the Bears for The first, like, 20 minutes on our show.
- [127:49]
A
Right.
- [127:49]
C
And I think a lot of Rams fans were probably pissed about that, but that was kind of the story of the game. It's like, man, how did the Bears not, like, follow through with this miracle? Just felt like it was their destiny that they're going to win that game. That touchdown throw by. By Caleb was completely just, you know, incredible. Yeah, I know it's one of those, like, footnotes of whatever happens next is just like, oh, yeah, remember that play by Caleb Williams that would have been. Would have gone down as one of the most miraculous things I've ever seen. But, yeah, it. You know, the Rams are good. I think that they're. I think the better team won. This is kind of what we were saying too, is just like, the better team did win, but they didn't look as dominant as I think I was expecting them to. They looked more mortal. A lot of that had to do with the weather. I think they're pretty banged up. Stafford hurt his Hand a little bit in that game. And I think that affected his. His ability to throw a little bit. Yeah.
- [128:41]
A
Before I let you go. Cause I promise you I don't wouldn't keep you on that long. But I did want to ask you. Your Pats Broncos take line is back up to five and a half directly in the Vegas zone. Jared Stidham started for Denver. Obviously, Pats fans feeling good. The thing I was saying to you and Mina, because the Pat, everyone's like, oh, the Pats. This is going to be amazing. You're going to win the Super Bowl. He didn't play anybody. Well, first of all, the Seahawks are like the sixth best DVOA team all time.
- [129:08]
C
Yeah.
- [129:09]
A
I think since 1978. So that I would consider that playing somebody if they played the Seahawks either.
- [129:14]
C
Yeah.
- [129:15]
A
Rams have been way up there, too. So that's one thing you could argue they'd be if they played the Seahawks in the super bowl, if they were managed to get past the Broncos, that those are the best four defenses they would have beaten all in a row. I think that matters.
- [129:27]
C
Yeah.
- [129:27]
A
Chargers, Texans, Broncos, Seahawks. Anybody else?
- [129:37]
C
I'm sure there are, but those are the big three that I could think of.
- [129:41]
A
Yeah. And I think even squeeze shoehorning the Chargers in there is probably a reach, but they would probably be the number four pick.
- [129:48]
C
Yeah.
- [129:48]
A
So anything I should be scared of in this game for my team other than the playoff history in Denver?
- [129:57]
C
Yeah. Well, there's that. I think obviously the defense, the Broncos defense is just really good. If weird stuff starts happening, you get turnovers on offense. That's like kind of the way that I see this going. If, if the. If, you know, the pass can play clean ball and not turn the ball over, I don't see how they lose this game. But that's kind of the variable that you can't control. That's. That's a very tough variable on the road in Denver, you know, against a very strong defensive, very experienced playoff coach and Sean Payton.
- [130:29]
A
And they're going to be hunting. They're going to be hunting for turnovers and trying to get Drake to cough the ball up because I think he has what, five or six fumbles now just in the last two games.
- [130:39]
C
And especially they're going to be targeting Will Campbell.
- [130:42]
A
I know that.
- [130:43]
C
Yeah. I thought it was so fascinating in that game. It felt like the Texans really had just the timing dialed of his backswing or whatever when he was going to throw. They were just able to time to get the ball out. By May, they had Two plays where he hit it when he was like putting the ball back behind his head. So they're obviously going to try and do more of that type of stuff. They'll try and drag the Patriots down into the mud and play like a defensive battle. Yeah, I think Stidham is one of those backups that we haven't seen him in like two years in, in the.
- [131:12]
A
Regular season for whatever he looks like. Like he. I remember there was like one game a couple years ago where he was. Looked good and was like stid him. Okay. And then. Yeah, that's all I remember.
- [131:22]
C
He could be in theory like a very poor man's version of Nicks in the sense that they could use him in some of the run game stuff that they do with Knicks like rolling him out.
- [131:31]
A
So what is he. What's the comparison for him? Is he like, is it Davis, like best case scenario is Davis Mills.
- [131:38]
C
The guy who came to my mind was Drew Locke actually who guy. And you know, you remember Drew Locke last year had won six touchdown game.
- [131:46]
A
Yeah.
- [131:46]
C
Like, I don't think he's good necessarily, but I think that there's some, there's some physical talent there and in the right situation, things could, you know, he could make some things happen. But you know, obviously I think, I.
- [131:57]
A
Think the line's too high. I really do. I think this is. I don't care that Stidham's the quarterback.
- [132:03]
C
Yeah.
- [132:03]
A
This is a lot to ask to go into Denver. What's the weather there against a really good defense. Yeah. I don't know what the. I haven't seen that. I haven't heard anything about like, you.
- [132:13]
C
Know, 30, 36 and sunny.
- [132:15]
A
Yeah.
- [132:16]
C
So it should, shouldn't be a huge factor. But the, but the height, you know, the, the altitude is certainly a thing.
- [132:23]
A
The Pats fans like, we're concentrating on the positives like the, we put together three good touchdown drives on the Texans. Right. Which ain't nothing. Now the other drives, I think they had two yards but like, like total. But they did put together three. And you know, the issue especially with these road games is the Drake may slow start, which just seems to be part of the package for him at this stage of his career where he just kind of choppy for 45 minutes and then gets going. And there's going to be a time and place where that doesn't fly in a playoff game where you don't get going. But Now I'm down 13 nothing.
- [133:01]
C
Right.
- [133:02]
A
So who do you trust?
- [133:05]
C
Who do you think is going to make the big play in this game. You think it's Diggs? You think it's Ramondre? Is Ramandre funny?
- [133:13]
A
Ramondre. For like an hour. That Texans game.
- [133:15]
C
He came back, right?
- [133:16]
A
Yeah, he came back.
- [133:16]
C
He went back into the game. Okay. Yeah.
- [133:19]
A
I really think booty's good, and I love when they throw it to him. And so Sir Tan, I'm guessing, is going to try to just take him out, which would make Diggs the key person. But one of the things that we don't know yet, Matt Collins was massive for the Pats all season.
- [133:36]
C
Oh, yeah. Late in the season, he was huge. He was big in fantasy.
- [133:39]
A
He really was important, and he was a good run blocker. And I'm looking right now. We don't know for sure if he's back, but it seems like he might be. But I just felt like he had something with Drake, and Drake really trusted him totally, and they missed him the last month, so that would be one. But, you know, and then, I don't know, just winning in Denver, in my head, is. Is a tough one. Before we go, can we talk Mendoza really quick?
- [134:07]
C
Yeah.
- [134:08]
A
Are you 100% in on him as the number one pick?
- [134:11]
C
I think so, yes.
- [134:12]
A
Okay.
- [134:12]
C
I think he's. He's definitely. During the season, it felt like he was getting shoehorned in as the number one just because there wasn't really anybody else. But the way that he's played during the college football playoffs, I thought has been pretty illuminating. He's just got that. He's got that steely, you know, drive, and. And he's really accurate. He play. He throws with anticipation. He's got a little bit of athleticism. We saw that on that 4th and 5 where he ran the ball in on a touchdown.
- [134:37]
A
I was like, I like that. He's tough, too. He takes. He takes a couple big hits, and then he just gets up.
- [134:42]
C
Yeah, he. He, like, wants to get hit.
- [134:44]
B
He.
- [134:44]
C
He wants. He. He likes that physicality. If you looked at his arms after the game, his arms were just all completely beat to hell.
- [134:50]
A
Yeah.
- [134:51]
C
So I. He really has grown on me. I think my initial impression of him was like, this guy's kind of a cornball, you know, personality, looking directly. He's looking directly into the camera when he's interviewing after the game. And I think it's like. But I think honestly now I kind of like that I've gone the other way. I'm like, he is kind of infectiously genuine and optimistic, and I could see why. His teammates love him. And so I'm kind of. Yeah, I'm kind of in on him. I think he's, you know, certainly not as physically talented as some of the other number one overall picks we've seen over the years. But I think he's got a lot of the other things you really look for at the quarterback position. Like I said, he throws with anticipation. His back shoulder throws in this game were huge. You know, he has a ability to kind of elevate this entire program that came out of nowhere the last two years. So, yeah, I think it makes a ton of sense for the Raiders to take him. It just feels kind of locked in at this point.
- [135:41]
A
I like that he's super smart and I look forward to the draft cycle of. I think people are going to start working on the tape and stuff for a couple of weeks and they're going to be like, holy shit, this guy is everything. And he's smart. And then there's going to be the backlash. Is he too smart? I can't wait for that. That part of the process that's probably like second week of March. Teams now worried Mendoza's too smart. It could be like an Andrew Luck situation.
- [136:06]
C
Does he take coaching?
- [136:08]
A
He could just. Yeah, he will.
- [136:09]
D
He.
- [136:09]
A
Will he be coached? Could he just walk away at age 28 because he has other career options? We'll do that all week. That'll be fun. But I think it's. If you're Vegas. First of all, I can't believe they wouldn't try to get an offensive coach. Like, I can't even believe they're looking at.
- [136:24]
C
Right.
- [136:25]
A
I'm just trying to match somebody with him that, you know, there's been some weird hires already, though, man. Salah was. I know there's a weird one. I. I'm not even necessarily against it because you could argue that with the jets, like, we. He never had a quarterback, so what are you going to do? But who knows? I think it is a.
- [136:44]
C
It's a strange one for me just because it's hard to understand exactly what he brought to the jets because they were such a disaster. And then he comes over to the 49ers as their defensive coordinator and they lose their top two players. They're completely banged up all year and their defense wasn't very good. And then, yeah, the Titans decided to hire him. I just. The timeline of how it went was a little strange to me. Obviously, you know, I'm not in there in the interview and see how impressive he is. I think the players. He gets the players to play hard which is huge.
- [137:12]
D
Are you.
- [137:13]
A
I'm in the pro McDaniel camp. I've come all the way around on DJ Mike.
- [137:18]
C
Yeah. I spin that.
- [137:20]
A
Spinning, spinning the songs. Like, if it's the Raiders teaming him up with Mendoza, it's like, fuck it, we're not going to win the super bowl the next couple years. Maybe we should just put like a fucking genius with him.
- [137:29]
C
I know. I'm into that. Honestly, I like him. I think he had the. In an exact same thing. What I was just saying with solid. He had the. He had the Dolphins playing pretty hard at the end of the season, and he was. I think it was a. I don't know what the word is, but he. It was good that he benched Tua and decided to kind of like go a different direction with it. And I don't know, it felt like to me, the Dolphins rallied around him and he had them playing really hard. So I think that's like, it answers a little bit of the question of, you know, how. How is he in a room of. Of, you know, alpha pros and all that stuff? Because that's always the question with him. He's kind of quiet guy, kind of an awkward interview, and how does he. How does the team react to this type of player or this type of coach? And I think. I don't know. To me, that answered at least a little bit of it, that he can get these guys going, keep them playing really hard. We know that he's really good with scheme. I would just like to see him with any other quarterback besides Tua at this point. I'd love to see what his offense would look like with. With a lot of the openings right now. So it'll be interesting.
- [138:26]
A
Partly designed that offense because he had Tua who make a decision after one second and. And if he got hit, was going to get knocked out of the game.
- [138:34]
C
Yeah.
- [138:34]
A
So you design the offense accordingly.
- [138:36]
C
And I mean, honestly, seeing him with Ashton Genty would be incredible, I think, because he's, you know, he's gotten the proven production from the run game over the years. So I think that would be really fun to see what he could do with the. With the Raiders run game. Yeah. So we'll see if he ends up being a head coach again. At the very least, if he doesn't get a head coach job, like he's going to be at the top. Yeah. For a lot of offensive players.
- [138:58]
A
I like the thought of him in Vegas too.
- [139:00]
C
Yeah.
- [139:01]
A
Listen, if the Pats can make the super bowl, all of these teams that Suck. But have, you know, a fourth place schedule and some real draft capital. Like they have to think about it. Cause we saw with Washington, we talk about this every year when we do in the previews in the summer. There's always. And that Vegas team was poorly coached last year and had some bad luck and they're going to have another high draft pick and they have some other stuff they're probably going to turn Max Crosby into a couple things would be my guess. So. And they're in a division that maybe you don't mind being in as much as you did a year ago.
- [139:33]
C
Right.
- [139:33]
A
But we'll see. All right. Do you have your number one fantasy player for 2026 yet?
- [139:40]
C
Bijan Robinson? I don't know.
- [139:42]
A
Boring.
- [139:43]
C
It's going to be tough. It's the boring ones like Jameer Gibbs, Bijan Jamar Chase Puka.
- [139:49]
A
When is Heifetz do the. It's actually Ashton Genti and here's why.
- [139:55]
C
It's actually the opposite. It's Ashton Genti. Yeah, that'll be coming probably in like July. I'm sure he'll. He'll workshop something.
- [140:03]
A
I'm in that playoff, that fantasy league that goes to the playoffs that I told you about and it's basically going to come down to can Drake may play two more games. As if I didn't have enough at stake with all the other things going on in life. Anyway, you can watch and listen to Danny Kelly on the Ringer fantasy football show. He's with Craig and Heifetz. Craig's on the Rewatchables as well, premiering on Netflix next week with the video. So we're having fun. Good to see you. Good luck with the Seahawks. I'm almost definitely betting on them in some form, so. Absolutely.
- [140:35]
C
And by the way, we do appreciate that you've been in the corner of the Sonics this whole time.
- [140:39]
A
Listen, as long as, as long as I'm back and as long as my live rewatchables in Seattle at some point in 2026 will not be awkward for everybody, I think we're fine. I think we walk through this.
- [140:49]
B
All right.
- [140:49]
A
Good to see you, dk. All right, you too. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Mahoney and Mad Dog, thanks to Dana Kelly. I apologize again to the city of Seattle and all the Seahawks fans. Thanks to Gahau and Eduardo as well. Don't forget, new rewatchables is up. Just one of the guys. Another one coming Wednesday. Another 48 hours and again February 11th, Wiltern Los Angeles. If you like the Rewatchables and Michael Mann movies, I would strongly consider going to this. I will see you on Thursday with some playoff picks, some football, maybe some basketball too. Go Pats. Must be 21 plus on President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 on President D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Get in prop called 100 Gamble or visit rg-help.com, call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.orgchatinconnecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org In Maryland, Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York.