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The Bill Simmons Podcast
NFL Draft Notes, Knicks and Nuggets Red Flags, Atlanta’s Moment, and Vrabel’s Mess | With Rob Mahoney and Sean Fennessey
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- [00:01]
Bill Simmons
This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn ads. Ever invest in something that seemed incredible at first but didn't live up to the hype? Well, marketers know the feeling. They optimize for the numbers that look great. Impressions reach reacts. But when they don't show revenue, well, that's not such a great conversation with the CFO. LinkedIn has a word for that bull spend. Instead, why not invest in what looks good to your CFO? LinkedIn Ads generates the highest roas of all major ad networks. Reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads you can target by company, industry, job title and more. So cut the bull. Spend. Advertise on LinkedIn, the network that works for you. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads. Get a $250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com Rewatchables Terms and Conditions apply. The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by fanduel. We are also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network where I put up a new rewatchables. On Monday we did Kindergarten Cop, which is on Netflix. The movie we're doing on Monday next week, Ghostbusters, also on Netflix. And we're doing a bunch of comedies in May that are on Netflix that we'll go into as we head into next month. Speaking of podcasts, Lagata fourth episode went up. This is one of the best things we've put up in a while. I've been talking about on this podcast, but we have four episodes. There's seven total. It's a narrative series about the 70s and 80s and cocaine in Miami and Columbia. Please go check it out. Also check out Sean Fennessy's new newsletter is called Projections. He put up a really great 4,000 word post today. He's coming on this podcast a little bit later. Rob Mahoney we talked about the Wolves and the Nuggets series, which is looking pretty grim. We talked about the rise of the Hawks and all the other basketball stuff. Then we brought Sean in to talk about his beloved Knicks and OKC and the Lakers and we talked about movies and TV and all kinds of things. So that's the tail end of the podcast. We're going to take a break. We're going to come back after Pearl, Jamie, and I'm going to talk about the NFL draft and the TV night in general. That's next. The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. The NBA post season is here and FanDuel knows the only thing better than watching your favorite team win is winning along with them. Fanduel the best place to bet the teams, players and plays during their playoff run. Build a same game parlay or try live betting and jump in after tip off. Don't forget with FanDuel you get paid instantly when you win. Download the FanDuel sportsbook app now and play your game 21 plus select states are 18 plus DC, Kentucky or Wyoming game problem call 1-800-GAMBLER call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincenetic. All right, unbelievable TV night tonight. There's always been a great argument about April versus October for Best Sports Month, which I've covered in multiple mailbags back when my fingers worked. And I think the answer is probably October because you really get hardcore NFL and there's just games constantly in the World Series and everything. But this specific week where you have basketball playoffs round one, there's games every night, NHL round one games every night. You have the NFL draft, all the weed up for it and then you have baseball going on too. So I had this is one of the rare nights where I had to actually break out this big iPad here for 4th TV cause I wanted to watch Buffalo and the Bruins. I wanted to watch two basketball games. I wanted to watch the NFL draft. I would have cared about Red Sox Yankees if the Red Sox were good this year. But that's a sunk cost. Sell the team. John Henry Anyway, I have some NFL draft thoughts and I want to talk about Variable at the end. So in no particular order, pretty boring draft. I think next year's draft's going to be awesome. So this was almost like the appetizer leading to the entree. Like we knew who the number one pick was going to be for for three months. Vegas moves into the Mendoza era and we'll see how good he's going to be. The only certainty is that Tom Brady and Mendoza will probably film some of the most awkward social media content that God has ever created. Those two guys together, anything's possible. I can't even fathom how wooden some of the interactions are going to be. Can't wait. Big winners I guess the Giants. Cause Greece fell to 5. A lot of people, including our own Dating Kelly had him as the number one player in the draft. Not even 21 years old yet. Awesome pass rusher, you know, just do it all defender potentially. Who knows with these guys but. But he fell to 5 and then they got an offensive lineman 10. It did seem like there was a moment when they were going to get Downs. The safety who Dallas took at number 11 and they were going to get Reese and downs and. And I think if you gave true serum to every Giants fan, even though the offensive line was the smart pick for them, if you gave true serum to the Giants fans doubling down on an already potentially pretty good defense with Reese and with downs, I think they all would have signed up for that. And in general, I just think the Giants I said this on Tuesday's pod. I think they are looming as this year's Patriots. Just that worst to first easy schedule added a bunch of guys, new coach, they check every box. So they took. They took the offensive lineman with the herniated disc. I'm sure it'll be fine. What could go wrong with a herniated disc? 9 offensive lineman in the first round. We talked about this on Tuesday's pod. The over under was seven and a half and that kept moving up. They really could have made eight and a half and I think it was ended up being nine anyway. So the Giants, they were fun to talk about. Ty Simpson goes to the rams at number 13 and it was one of those where if he didn't go 13, he might have fallen all the way to the end of the first round. Sean McVay is one of those. I'm not trading down. I'm Sean McVay. No way. He is Sean McVeigh. He's won the Super Bowl. I probably would have traded down. So this is one of those where this guy, this guy does not check. Or a lot of the quarterback boxes like career starts, he's not big enough. Was bad down the stretch, but people were then decided it was more his team's fault that he wasn't that good. And yet you go to the Rams and you just feel like the guy's been minted. I was trying to think of other. It's almost like a movie director, you know, if you're in like a Chris Nolan movie, you're just. You're in a Chris Nolan movie. It's going to be fine. And maybe that's the way this will work out with simpson going to McVeigh sitting for a year. I don't mind the whole not traded down thing. Personally, I do think we get a little carried away with that where if they go from 13 to 18 and pick up a third round pick next year and then they take them there, then it's a brilliant move. But if you just take them at 13 because you wanted them and you're afraid somebody else is gonna take them, not brilliant. I Didn't mind it. It felt about, I don't know, 10 picks too high. But whatever. I like styles to Washington was great. Sonny Styles the linebacker, perfect pick gave. Gave the Washington fans like a signature guy. And then downs to Dallas was another great one. I really enjoyed Arizona taking love the running back at number three which was a classic. We don't know who to take care fuck it. Let's just take the top guy on our board. The last four top three running backs taken Ronnie Brown number two, Reggie Bush number two, Barkley number two and Trent Richardson number three. That's 25% really small sample size but their quarterbacks, Jacoby Brissette and he's being backed up by Gardner Minshew and I don't think they can really block and they're in a division with the Rams and the Niners and the Seahawks. So good luck to love. I was kind of hoping he would fall to the Titans but he ends up going there and Titans took a risk receiver. Another big thing that happened. Lemon goes to Philly at 20. They trade up for the receiver from USC which basically confirms that AJ Brown's going to be in the Patriots because they've just spent all this capital on receiver. We get to watch another Eagles wide receiver slowly become unhappy and lose the will to live on the on the Philadelphia Eagles. But A.J. brown sounds like we'll be going to the Patriots. I don't know what the trade is. I really hope it's not next year's number one because I'm not convinced the Patriots are going to be very good next year. There's a lot of bad sides against it including super bowl loss, super bowl hangover, all that stuff. First place schedule. I'm not sure you know the story that's happening with our coach, but it's not good. But a lot of bad signs. So I Hope it's the 2028 first round pick. More stuff from the draft. Jets ended up with three first rounders. They took Bailey, second pass rusher. I thought they should take a Reese. They took Sadiq the tight end at 16 and then they traded back up into the first round and take Cooper, the excellent Indiana receiver. I really like him at 30. So great draft on paper. They did trade two of their best players to get two of the picks that then led to them coming out of the first round being like we got three starters in the first round. Well, it's because you traded two. It's like optical illusion. But I didn't mind the draft. I thought they should take in Reese. Kansas City got a cornerback. They traded up for that New England traded up for Lomu, the tackle who I guess is going to be the right tackle from Utah, but traded up, jumped Kansas City and the Niners. The Patriots never jumped teams so that was fun. So they gave up a fourth rounder in that pick. And then Mike Vrabel is also giving up the fourth round. On Saturday. Tennessee took Tate fourth. So we'll get on the glass half full word to Tate connection sounds fun. Red flag that he was the second best receiver at Ohio State and somehow went number one in this draft. I got slight slate slate Marvin Williams flashbacks with that. Remember when Marvin Williams got taken ahead of Chris Paul in the 2005 NBA Draft even though he didn't start from North Carolina? I was like a voice crying in the wilderness. This seems wrong. Why didn't this guy start for North Carolina? How is he going to be the number two pick in the draft? The other one that worried me was Tyson, the wide receiver who's stud but injury prone. And I talked on Tuesday about the different types of wide receivers. The injury prone stud has broken a lot of hearts over the years and sometimes made some teams happy. You just never know. He goes to the Saints, a team that plays in the Superdome and has a pretty legendary situation with the Saints and the Pelicans and they cheap out on training staff, medical staff stuff and it just feels like a good luck all the way around. I don't know if I would have taken this guy if I'm the Saints, but I guess Chris Olave has somebody to play cards with when he's in the trainer's room. The biggest thing I noticed from the draft other than I don't really understand ESPN's strategy of having the college guys on ABC and then whatever that Mike Greenberg thing was on espn, but not just using the NFL Live people, which is a really good show. I just maybe would have used those people. But Goodell's hugs. This has been weird the entire time he's been doing it and there's been a million comments and a million videos and I'm not breaking any new ground here. The hugs have gotten longer. I think he's tried to figure out how he can. I'd love for somebody to break this down, the hugs from 10, 12 years ago to the hugs in 2026, because I think he's holding on longer. I think he's trying to make them more meaningful and they're starting to take on the vibes of somebody who's reuniting with their son who just did a five year tour in Vietnam in the early 70s and came home and they never thought they'd see their son again. And they see them and they're just hugging for 10, 12 seconds. And that's how long these hugs are taken now. And I just don't understand it. I know, it's this thing. It's pretty weird. And I think we're forgetting how weird it is. I just think it's strange that he hugs 32 people for 10 seconds apiece. It feels like I don't know. And I also don't know. It's almost like wrestling when the moves in wrestling, they kept going higher and higher with the jumps. And then eventually you have people jumping off 25 foot ladders and shit like that and you're like, all right, somebody's gonna break their neck now. I don't know how far, how much further he can push the hugs. I guess we'll be on pins and needles trying to find out. The Steelers were up and it was in Pittsburgh and they had over 320,000 people there. I asked this every year. I have no idea why anybody would want to go to the draft. I was trying to think at any point in my life when I was the craziest about sports, even when, you know, I was going to Yankee stadium and sitting in the upper deck wearing a Red Sox shirt and Bruins pants and just was a lunatic. I don't even think then I would have wanted to go to the draft. I just don't really understand why people want to go. Maybe I'm missing something. I'd love if, you know, you can feel free to email me s podcast 33 and explain it. I just don't get it. I don't really want to do anything that has 320,000 people in it. But I'm also old. But anyway, they played Renegade by sticks that the Steelers have kind of claimed. Pretty good song. Can't kill them on that. And they got the crowd into an absolute frenzy because the Steelers are picking and Jerome Bettis was coming out waving a towel and then they took a left tackle. And I always think that's funny when that happens. I always really enjoy that. All right, gotta talk about Vrabel really quick. You know, the story happened. Diana Rossini's been on this podcast before. I don't know her very well. Only met her one time in New Orleans. And Vrabel is the coach of my favorite team. So the whole story happens. And I was debating whether to talk about it. On the pod. And it's just like, eh, they're both married, both have kids, like, let's kind of see where this goes. And I thought I would maybe cover it a mailbag or something. And then this week it goes to a whole other level, to the point that it really did become a football story this week because for one thing, he's missing the third day of the draft where the Patriots had eight picks, now they have seven. Cause they traded the fourth rounder. But he stayed there today for the draft, he's there tomorrow and then he's gone for the weekend because he's got some family counseling stuff and did a press conference today and basically was like, I have to do this. He was like, family first, then football respectable. I don't know why I couldn't start on a Sunday. But that made it more of a football story. And then the fact that this seemed to be going on for a long time, almost like that movie, same time next year, cross with Brokeback Mountain or something. But at some point this became one of the craziest Boston stories I think, ever. I can't tell you how many texts I've gotten about it, how many I've sent about it, just trying to figure out, is this story going to get worse. And it actually feels like there's more coming. And it feels like the evidence is whether it was an on again, off again thing or whatever, but they clearly had some sort of relationship and she was covering the team and he was coaching the Titans and the Patriots, she was covering the league and the Athletic got involved. They, the Athletic and the Patriots both stood up for them because they were telling them, you know, now this story's nothing. It's a nothing burger, which you're gonna do. You're trying to protect your family. But then it was clear there was way more to the story and now the tone has shifted and it just feels like if, you know, all the Patriots fans that I'm talking to and you know, even somebody like my dad and we talk about it, we're just like, this feels like a terrible omen just for the season. Not to mention all the personal stuff, there's no way this isn't going to affect the coach. There's no way this isn't going to affect the team. Also coming off some of the other stuff that happened and the way Variable carried himself last year as like such a leader and the Patriots are a family and is this going to seem genuine now? And it's just one of those. It's one of Those sports stories that just sucks in every capacity other than, you know, unless you're on social media, get jokes out of it. But in terms of, like, the craziest Boston stories ever, which I really try to put some time into thinking about, and I didn't want to put, like, dark stuff like Reggie Lewis, things like that, but just the kind of, what the fuck? The wtf? Boston sports stories, a really great one. When I was a. When I was a kid, the Celtics won the 1976 title, and then they let Paul Silas go, who was their best rebounder, was my dad's favorite player. And Dave Cowens, the center, who was one of the best players in the league, just retired the next season in his prime and sat out the first 35 games. And at one point, I can't remember, I think he drove a cab one night. But then at one point he took a job working for Suffolk Downs, the racetrack. And this was just being covered day to day in Boston. Like, I'm trying to think if this happened now because the players didn't make that much money back then, but I can't describe how fucking bonkers this was when it was happening. Like, Dave Cowens, he's just going to retire. And it's like, Dave Cowens took a job at Suffolk Downs. That story was nuts. The Larry Bird 1985 bar fight that happened in the playoffs that we didn't find out about until all of a sudden he was having issues with his thumb and he was the best player in the league and he was in the hottest streak he'd ever had. And then all of a sudden his shot was going sideways and he had an obviously swollen thumb. And then it turned out he was in a bar fight in Boston. And then it got reported by Dan Shaughnessy, and everybody got mad at Shaughnessy that he kind of told a tale about Bird. But actually it was a real story and he should have written about it, and it was one of the things that cost him the title. That was weird. But it turned out he punched some dude in a bar. Paul Pierce getting stabbed was awful. Oil Can Boyd, which was one of our best pitchers during the 1986 season when we went to the World Series and then had 13 pitches to win the World Series. And I don't know if you remember, but we fucking lost the World Series in the Mets. But oilcam Boyd, he did make the all star team and spun out and disappeared and was actually on the COVID of Sports Illustrated. And there are all these rumors that he was doing drugs and all that. And he was just really unraveled in all these different ways. And then came back and pitched and then became so unreliable that they couldn't pitch him in game seven. And it was one of the many reasons why they lost to the mets. And in 2012, Oil Cambodian admitted that he was smoking crack every day during the season. So our fears were valid. But that was just really weird. Looking back Ime Adoka and the Celtics that happened recently, that was crazy. Irving Fryer missed the 1985 AFC championship game. He was not our best receiver, but one of our best offensive players. And he was a kick returner. He was the number one pick in the 84 draft. And he missed it cause he had a hand laceration. And then it turned out his wife stabbed him in the kitchen in the hand. And it came this story that came out. And that story was nuts. But obviously the winner here is Aaron Hernandez. And we don't need to go into this, but this Rabel Rossini story is really nuts. And it's been interesting to watch everybody who has a platform try to figure out ways to talk about it. Because at one point it didn't really feel like a story, but now it is, and it's undeniable. And even today, I was really convinced that he was either gonna step aside for two months or maybe even step down. And this is a guy that completely rejuvenated the team, turned the culture around, created something that seemed really substantial. And if you had told me in January we'd have questions about Drake May and Mike Vrabel, that would have seemed insane. I don't have any questions about Drake May, by the way. I think the weird thing about this story is I don't know if it's over. Is there more stuff coming already? Seeing, like Today, there was 2020 photos from back then, and then there was like, the people are. It seems like they're going through their iPhones. Like, oh, yeah, I think I was at a bar one night. I noticed. So who knows if this is going to keep going? But Vrabel, his demeanor at the press conference today, he just looked like he had been hit by a truck. And it was really, really strange. So we'll see how this goes. But I felt like I had to, had to mention this is about as crazy of a Boston sports story as I can remember. And we'll see how it plays out, I guess. All right, we're going to take a break. We're going to come back, and we're going to talk basketball with Rob Melanie are the Nuggets. How much trouble are they in? That's next. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by my friends at FanDuel. NBA fans, this is your reminder to check in daily because every day during the playoffs, which have been really fun so far, FanDuel is serving up a happy hour. We're talking special drops you won't want to miss, from profit boost to bonus bets and more. And the best part? It's every single day, including today. I am probably going back to the well with the Celtics. I had everything in place for game two except the part that the Celtics didn't actually beat the Sixers at home, but I like their money line and a revenge thing. So I'm going to try to figure out a couple things to put with that, including probably tatum to be 10 plus rebounds again. Check for a new reward every single day of the NBA playoffs and don't miss your shot to get a little extra out of the action. Head to FanDuel.com BS to get started. 21/ select states are 18/DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Restrictions apply. See terms@sportsbook.fando.com, game problem call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat this episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. You know what my favorite thing about the playoffs is? I like during and it's usually maybe a Game four, might even be a Game five, Game seven, everyone's nervous. There's a different level of energy. But Game four, Game five for one of the two teams, there's this realization with like five minutes left in the fourth quarter where it's like, oh, our fate is suddenly in real flux right now. Who's stepping up? Who's what are we going to do? Let's calm down. Can we rise to the moment or are we going to shrink from it? And you can kind of see it with different teams. It's definitely like, for instance, going to happen in this Denver, Minnesota series. There's going to be a moment in one of the later games when all of a sudden either Minnesota's taking it from Denver and at some point somebody in Denver is going to have to hit a shot and you're going to look around and go who's going to do it? Or in Minnesota's case, maybe Denver is is punching them back and now Edwards has to step up or defincenzo and you just never know. And you never know how somebody's going to respond to pressure. But that's why we love the playoffs every spring. It's as great as opening up a Michelob Ultra. A nice cold one. Crisp, refreshing, the ultimate prize. Plus, as the official beer partner of the NBA, they're giving fans a chance to win courtside tickets, custom merch and more. You could be at one of those games when the pressure rises. Michelob Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Enter now at michelobultra.com courtside Michelob Ultra Courtside 2526 no purchase necessary open to US residence 21/plus begins on October 1, 2025 ends on June 30, 2026 multiple entry periods. See official rules@michelobaltra.com courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and prizes and details. All right, we're recording little after 9:00pm Pacific time. Incredible sports night. Rob Mahoney is here. We're going to talk basketball first. I thought we'd be here under better circumstances. Rob wolves Nuggets Game 3 Jaden McDaniel's talking all kinds of trash about the Nuggets defense, and then all of a sudden Aaron Gordon gets scratched. It's like, oh, and then Minnesota just kicked their ass again. And I, as a longtime Joker fan, Joker and Curry, my two favorite non Celtics, I just like watching them play basketball. I don't think I'm going to be potentially watching him in about 10 days.
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Rob Mahoney
It's heartbreaking for you, for many of us. I have to say, though, you know, we give Jokic a lot of benefit of the doubt when things like this happen, when the circumstances aren't ideal, when guys are scratched out of the lineup, he gets a lot of leeway. His inability over these last two games to get anything going whatsoever against Rudy Gobert is a massive problem, and I think it's fair to hold him to a different standard. Like we talk about him as one of these stars who doesn't need ideal circumstances to be effective, who doesn't need everything to be just so to win. And yet in this series against an opponent like Minnesota, it kind of feels that way.
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Bill Simmons
It's tough because he can't make threes. They're not going in.
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Sean Fennessy
Nope.
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Bill Simmons
And Minnesota is just doing one on one with him versus Joker. And if he's not making the threes, that means he either has to beat him off the dribble, which is hard, or he has to post them up, which is really hard, and they're willing to live. Like I think he had, he had like 23 shots pretty early in the third quarter of this game. That's not what he. That's not how he wants to play. That's not how Denver wants to play. But they've just made the decision like, yeah, Joker, knock yourself out. Take 30 shots. If you're not making threes, you're probably gonna go like 12 for 30. And that's great for us. So the Gordon thing, you know, I could say I did a thing on Tuesday about it, about I didn't like the way he looked in game two at all. I didn't really know fully what the injury was, but he clearly wasn't himself. And you know, unfortunately every team has their superpower guy. Like I think for the Celtics it's white. If they're going to win the title, he's going to have to shoot better and play better than he is. I think for the Knicks at San Andobi, like you go on down the line, everybody has the one guy for sure. And I think for the Nuggets it's Gordon. And without him and without Peyton Watson, I don't really see a path unless there's a corresponding Timberwolves injury.
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Rob Mahoney
Well, especially with Gordon, even when he was out there but wasn't himself, the concept of him was enough to be a deterrent for a lot of the other things that the Wolves might throw at you defensively versus a game like this. And it's because he's such an important shooter for them. He's really the piece that elevates like the two man Muric stuff into like a three man action that's really sophisticated and really hard to stop. He's the connector of so much of what they try to run. And so not having him out there, you saw it in the first half like just the drop off from going to, from Aaron Gordon to Cam Johnson, Spencer Jones, Christian Brown, I think combined for two total points in the first half between the three of them, Minnesota can just sit in every passing lane, clog up everything that, that Denver's trying to run. It's, it's just, it feels like a non starter in a lot of ways. And I say that knowing that Jokic is one of the game's like great like cerebral thinkers and problem solvers in a way that we would expect him to have a solution to this. And right now it just looks like he doesn't really have many answers.
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Bill Simmons
Yeah, and he looked just a whiff defeated during this game too. Yeah, I've seen him. There's versions of him when he knows like, all right guys, let's go. And maybe he'll be like that in game four. But this game he really felt like he was trying to problem solve. And when he can't make threes, I think it's going to be really hard. We talk too much about Denver without talking enough about Minnesota. McDaniels, McDaniels, if C.J. mcCollum wasn't in the playoffs, would be the breakout star of the playoffs. Even though he's done versions of this before. But he's been so. I. I didn't vote for him for either team, for all defense. Did you?
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Rob Mahoney
I did not, to be honest, in the regular season, I thought he was like a little more up and down than normal.
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Bill Simmons
Well, so were the Timberwolves fair? Yeah. When he's playing like this. And Ant, even though he's clearly not 100%. But the defense was going around then IO, which was the best move in the trade deadline other than maybe Kobe White and you know, they had no point guard. They were on the Rob Dillingham washed up Mike Conley, Bones Highland roller coaster at that spot. And sometimes not even playing a point guard.
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Rob Mahoney
They and we are still on the Bones Highland roller coaster. I want to give Bones an apology because he's just been straight up like a legit playoff performer for them and certainly miles ahead of whatever they would have gotten from Rob Dillingham at this stage.
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Bill Simmons
Yeah, the concept of Bones island was always what we're actually watching in this Minnesota series where it's like. And that 30 footer might go in. Oh, it did. Oh, he's talking all kinds of shit. Even though he has seven points, this is kind of what his destiny was. Now, of course, he left Denver because he didn't really like playing with the Joker and Murray and that seemed like a failure of an IQ test. But maybe, maybe, maybe Bones found his way. Minnesota, I would call them the rope and dope. The rope and dope Timberwolves, where I don't know what to expect from them game to game, week to week. There were three different times during this season where I'm like, here we go. I even have a 12 to 1 timberwolves title bet that I made in February and they immediately went on like a seven game losing streak. They're just all over the map. I don't think Chris Finch has aged. I think six years in the last two.
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Rob Mahoney
Oh, easily.
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Bill Simmons
And the frustrating thing about Minnesota and the reason we talked about them so much during the season is they can do this. They can do what we just saw in the last couple games. They can get to this level so why, why, why is it a backs to the wall thing with them and is it sustainable for you?
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Rob Mahoney
I mean, everything you just described says it's not perfectly sustainable. And even in this game, like, they played an amazing first half and then had moments in the second half where they were just fouling a bunch, like doing the kinds of things that you might do to let a team like the Nuggets back in the game. They were just so far ahead by that point. And I think you're spot on about Jokic in particular, looking a little bit defeated. Looking like they're just going to kind of punt this game and move on. Yeah, you have to believe in the Wolves because of this high end potential, though, because they do have this in them. And I want to say in particular had this kind of game in them when it wasn't like Ant was amazing. It wasn't like Julius Randall was unbelievable. It was just a collective defensive performance that was as much about, you know, leading scorer IO Dumu as it was Dante DiVincenzo as it was Jaden McDaniels, as it was Rudy Gobert. Like, they were all tethered together in a way that. That's really, really tough to beat.
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Bill Simmons
Yeah, Denver had six points with like two minutes left in the first quarter. Timberwolves weren't even shooting like that well. It wasn't like they were blowing it up offensively, but the defense was just awesome. I don't really understand it. I saw them in person play the Clippers right after the trade deadline when they had just gotten IO and they looked awesome and there was like specific stretches. I remember leaving the game, like, wow, that's like, watch out for that team. That might even been the day I made the bet. And then like a week later, they played the Clippers again and they were down 30 in the first half. And that was when they went into one of their many tailspins during the thing. But it was like, what? I just saw you guys a week ago and you seem like you had your shit together. This got bad enough for Denver that I was wondering if they were going to go Twin Towers with Joker and Valanchunas.
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Rob Mahoney
I don't know. Valentunas feels kind of unplayable in the series at this point.
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Bill Simmons
Well, but that's. That's when. When we're talking about searching for answers. My mind went there. Yeah, for about 20 seconds. That's a D. What would that look like at this point?
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Rob Mahoney
I. I think I'd be more comfortable maxing out the Zeke Naji minutes than I would making more space for Valentunas. It just doesn't feel like he has much of a spot in this matchup.
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Bill Simmons
No, I don't think so. I was. I was trying to figure out any way that they could put a second big body out there to take some. Some pressure off the Joker, but that wasn't happening.
- [33:26]
Rob Mahoney
I think, like, it's a little simplistic, but with this roster constructed as it is, like, the only way you're going to get offensive flow is if Jokic and Murray just play a lot better than this. And they're just going to have to do that against hellacious defensive pressure that's attached to them every step of the way. It's going to be incredibly difficult if Gordon can't go. But none of these other guys, like, create flow for your offense. They just draft off of everything that Jokic and Murray usually create for them. And so not a surprise to see the entire offense going gummy when you remove that, like, critical spacing and flow element in Aaron Gordon from the mix.
- [34:00]
Bill Simmons
And they unlocked a couple things. Like, they're just going to be in Murray's face, the 94ft. That's just how they're going to play. They're going to. It seems like they want to run after every rebound, especially when IO's out there. Like, they just want to go, um. And he's trying to get downhill all the time.
- [34:16]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, yeah. When IO and Dante are out there together, like, both of those guys just like, by the way they play, rev up everyone around them, and the amplifying effect of both of them on the floor at the same time is really awesome and really special, and I think maybe kind of insulates them a little bit from some of their more wolvesy up and down qualities. Right. Like, the offense is never going to be super precise in terms of how they execute. They're always going to be a little bit vulnerable to that. But if, when you do go on the runs, you add four points to that run, because I would assume you came up with two steals in the process. And it's like, you can weather the down spells a little bit better.
- [34:50]
Bill Simmons
I played 31 minutes today and had a 25 and 9. It was 10 for 15. Got to the line six times.
- [34:56]
Rob Mahoney
Incredible.
- [34:57]
Bill Simmons
The Bulls were like, yeah, take them.
- [35:01]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. Why would you want a player like this to be a part of your future? What would be the point of that?
- [35:05]
Bill Simmons
Especially when you see him in person. Like, he's a big dude. He's not a point guard. Like, he's big shoulders. Looks like he's about 6, 3, 6, 4. Can switch on anybody and is just really impressive. So when they play, when they have him, I'd love to see the. I haven't looked at the five man lineups, but when it's McDaniels, Gobert, Dante Edwards and then IO it's A. That's a lineup that I feel like could. Could hang in the next couple rounds. And it's going to be the big question because you know, he. It seems like he's stubbornly playing through something, but he's flexibly like going down and playing with it and looking at it and I don't know. We're. This is a long haul. We're in week two of a. Well, how many weeks are we going here? 12. Not great.
- [35:50]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, he's not fully himself for sure. They're going to need as as these games get a little bit more competitive than this one. Like the best of Julius Randle a little bit more often than they might otherwise just because of whatever ant has left at this point.
- [36:02]
Bill Simmons
Game 82, Denver has a chance to just roll over against San Antonio, get to the four seed and play Houston. I kind of like that they said fuck it with the Denver Nuggets on the other hand, probably better, better off if they're playing that messed up Rockets team and it switches two series because it gave the Lakers life.
- [36:22]
Rob Mahoney
True.
- [36:22]
Bill Simmons
It would have no chance against this Minnesota team. And now Reeves is coming back and we're going to talk about that in a second. But Aaron Gordon, this is his 12th year. He's played 756 games. 68 games. This is the first time I started thinking about a finish line with this Nuggets run.
- [36:40]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [36:40]
Bill Simmons
Where Gordon, who I think has just had a lot of nothing like a catastrophic injury, but some mileage and some, some dings and some bangs on his body. And we might have seen the best version of him. We might see a 90% version of him. But sure. So you have that. You have Joker who's been dominated in the 2000s. You have Murray with some miles on him. He had a knee surgery. Like I am a little worried about the long term with this team if they can't get out of the series.
- [37:10]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. I think there are parts of Aaron Gordon's game that are going to be just fine as he, you know, diminishes ever so slightly from, I don't know, one of like seven most athletic people on the planet into the like top 25 most athletic people on the planet. Like he's such a smart positional defender. He knows how to rotate, he knows how to communicate. Like he's so good at tethering in to his teammates on both sides of the ball, but they also rely on him to do superhuman things all the time to guard up and down the positional spectrum, especially to like cross match against other bigs and really like be a bully in a bunch of different ways. And that's tough if you're coming up with calf injuries and hamstring injuries all the time. Like that's. You have to be really explosive to do the best Aaron Gordon stuff. And I don't know how long that will be a reasonable ask.
- [37:54]
Bill Simmons
Well, we'll see. I don't want to pronounce the Nuggets dead.
- [37:57]
Rob Mahoney
No.
- [37:58]
Bill Simmons
Game four, I think is the series for them. I don't think they can win three straight with with a banged up Gordon. So if they fall down three one, even though five and seven are in Denver, that seems too tall of a task. His Minnesota is too good defensively. So everything will come down to game four. And the NBA already played their Scott Foster card tonight. So there you go. One last thing. A little bit of a legacy series for our guy. Rudy. Oh sure, I was looking it up. So he's made a second team all NBA and two third teams. He's been defensive player of the year four times. First time first team all D7 career. He's basically 13 and 12 with two blocks. He's played 89 playoff games, two conference finals, 12 and 11 in the playoffs. With whom declining line for hall of Fame players in the NBA. As, as we've continued to make it pretty blurry what a Hall of Fame player is. I actually think there's a chance he gets in.
- [39:01]
Rob Mahoney
I, I think he's absolutely getting in.
- [39:03]
Bill Simmons
Okay.
- [39:04]
Rob Mahoney
He's a four time defensive player of the year. It is.
- [39:07]
Bill Simmons
He's getting into the hall of Fame. It's hard for me to wrap my head around it. I think he's in.
- [39:11]
Rob Mahoney
No, he's in.
- [39:11]
Bill Simmons
I think it's going to happen now.
- [39:13]
Rob Mahoney
I do think a series like this could change just the way a lot of people talk about him. Right. In terms of the playoff liability, we've seen I think some very specific moments where he was taking taken out of the game and like again, very, very specific circumstances and that has been overblown into oh, you can't keep him on the floor in high leverage like playoff situations. That was never really the case. A lot of the teams that he was on that faltered defensively were more about, like, what perimeter guys couldn't hold down their spot. And Rudy being overstretched maybe a little bit. But he's one of the best defensive players of his generation, if not all time. He's a winning player through and through. He's helped a bunch of different. Like at least these two different franchises at this point. I think he's. He's kind of a shoo in based on the accolades alone.
- [39:55]
Bill Simmons
So the reason I don't think he's a shoo in, although you never know with the line these days, is that there's just a lot of good players that are going to be popping in and the careers are longer and we're going to see people with, I think, better credentials, like, because Draymond's another one that I. I actually think Draymond is more realistic to get in than Rudy because of. Of all the titles and all the finals and the playoffs, stuff like that. Yep. But just think, if you go through the teams and it's like, well, Curry, Clay and Draymond, they're all getting in. Westbrook and Durant, they're getting in. Tatum and Brown, they're probably getting in. Like, you go on down the line. It's like, it's just a lot of guys. So I guess it would depend on how many. How many they do. But yeah, it was the first time I was watching it, I was like, wow, Rudy's really kind of cementing a Hall of Fame case out of nowhere. We'll do quickly. Raptors, Cavs. Probably the best game of Scotty Barnes career.
- [40:48]
Rob Mahoney
He was awesome.
- [40:49]
Bill Simmons
Maybe the best game of RJ Barrett's career. They both had 33.
- [40:53]
Rob Mahoney
Both have had a good series, to be honest, even though the Cavs overall have clearly been up and mostly down. But they have not been the problem. They have been rock solid, I would say, throughout these first three.
- [41:03]
Bill Simmons
And they got a big Murray Boyles, little Jameson Battle.
- [41:07]
Rob Mahoney
He's back hitting some closing threes.
- [41:09]
Bill Simmons
Today it turned out it's not the series for Brandon Ingram or Jakob Pertle. I don't know if there's ever a series for Jakob Pertle, but it's not the series for Brandon Ingram for some reason, which is weird to me because I thought he would have some good matchups. But to me, this is way more a story of the Cavs and all of the issues I had with them as a real contender. I just don't think they're good enough defensively. I don't trust the Mitchell Harden, just Mitchell Today was just for him, for somebody that was a first team all NBA guy on some ballots and a fifth place MVP guy, it was just a no show in a game three that it's like just. Just go out there, slit their throats, get out of this, get to make this a sweep. And he did the opposite. It looked like he didn't give a shit.
- [41:56]
Rob Mahoney
Especially like Donovan Mitchell takes his shots in terms of his playoff performance too, but it's more about what he is in a team context and the idea that you can't just have him throw a whole team on his shoulders and Superman his way through everything once you get into the second round or whatever. Yeah, but generally speaking, he shows up and competes and this is a highly unusual game for him where you're right, he felt a little disconnected. He felt a little absent. I think the Cavs turnovers overall had a lot of them feeling a little bit out of sorts in terms of what they were supposed to be doing.
- [42:26]
Bill Simmons
They have 20.
- [42:27]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, it was a lot. And Toronto, to their credit, like, really dialed that up in a way that they needed to, to kind of equalize their own turnover issues in this series.
- [42:35]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, he was bad. Evan Mobley is just always slightly disappointing at this point. You never feel just fully satisfied. I don't know what, what food item.
- [42:47]
Sean Fennessy
He is
- [42:50]
Rob Mahoney
just like a little underwhelmed every time you have it.
- [42:53]
Bill Simmons
Like you're excited to get it and then it's like, yeah, this is all right.
- [42:58]
Rob Mahoney
I feel like you need to swing big. You need to be like the pan seared bra.
- [43:02]
Bill Simmons
Pan seared filet sole with the breadcrumbs. And it's like, ah, I'm not really filled. Can we get pizza?
- [43:08]
Rob Mahoney
The sommelier. Tough, tough shots on the Bill Simmons podcast this week.
- [43:12]
Bill Simmons
Just always a little slightly disappointed, but I just don't think, you know, I think Toronto's a pretty bogus five seed. You knew they were going to win one of these at home. I picked Cleveland in six and I don't even like Toronto. Yeah, I just don't.
- [43:24]
Rob Mahoney
You.
- [43:25]
Bill Simmons
You can just rain these open threes on Cleveland. That's how Toronto built. All of a sudden they're up 25 in this game just because they had guys wide open all over the court just taking whatever shot they wanted. Um, and I don't, I don't think Harden. This was not like a no show, James Harden game. Like, he was a little omnipresent, but pretty strange. Cleveland's a weird team.
- [43:45]
Rob Mahoney
They are a weird team. I, I will say on like as far as those open three threes go for Toronto, they are, I mean they have to be the streakiest three point shooting team in the league where they have a lot of theoretical who will hit in the way that they did today, but they will have some bottom out games that make their offense just completely implode.
- [44:02]
Bill Simmons
I thought Murray Boyles was excellent today.
- [44:04]
Rob Mahoney
He's a dog. Yeah, he's really good.
- [44:06]
Bill Simmons
I wonder if there's some lineups where they just are going to just go. They can go smaller because they had these long athletic eyes and just be like, hey, this is what we're going to do. Try to stop us. That game four will be the game with that series too. You know, home team usually wins game three when they're down two nothing. This is how the playoff series goes. Game four. We'll see, we'll see if those shots keep going in. I want to see what happens with Brandon and Ingram. It's funny if you go through the player who's probably the most bummed out on each playoff team, even though we just had a win, it would have been Mikhail Bridges today on the Knicks if the Knicks had won. And it's, it's definitely Ingram where he's like, all right guys, good game. But meanwhile he's like, what the fuck? I only had nine shots, you know,
- [44:49]
Rob Mahoney
I just, I just can't with Brandon Ingram. I wish we had a larger body of work to point to that would say that Brandon Ingram, when push comes to shove is like again, quite underwhelming in the so many kind of way in these sorts of games where it's like even, even when he scores, it's like, why aren't you guarding? Why aren't you boxing out? Like there's always something with him in a way that I agree with you, is covered up nicely by the fact that the raptors around him acclimated themselves well.
- [45:12]
Bill Simmons
He's the onion rings. It's like, I don't even know if
- [45:15]
Rob Mahoney
you're going by onion rings.
- [45:17]
Bill Simmons
No, it's like, I don't even know if I should get these. You're glad you had three. And then you're like, I don't want to keep eating these. This is just 900 calories. I'm going to feel sick. And then you're having, you're like half heartedly eating the fifth one. We have fantasy coming on later to talk about the Knicks with us in the playoffs in general. But that doesn't mean we can't talk about Atlanta right now. I Have so many Atlanta thoughts. A joyous Rembert. Brown called me immediately after the game. He thinks C.J. mcCollum is in the running now for greatest Hawk of all time.
- [45:50]
Rob Mahoney
What is that list? What is the greatest Hawk list?
- [45:52]
Bill Simmons
It's basically Dominique Wilkins. And then pick anybody else after him. Unless you want to go way back to St. Louis with Bob Pettit and
- [45:59]
Sean Fennessy
people like that doesn't count.
- [46:01]
Bill Simmons
Knicks are up three. Atlanta gets a second chance. Jalen Johnson, offensive rebound put back. Knicks have it. It's like 45, 50 seconds left and the Knicks have been money in these situations all year. Atlanta gets a stop. Time. Offensive rebound Nicks. Atlanta gets another stop. Timeout. 15 seconds left. Mike Brown goes small. CJ McCollum says thank you and immediately scores a Miles McBride. And then Atlanta gets a stop. And all of a sudden the game's over and Atlanta's up 2:1 in the series. And. And I thought they deserved to win. The game was the bigger thing. They're up 18. The Knicks almost did their ridiculous. It would have been the fourth time in the last two playoffs that they came back from 18 and 1. This time they didn't win. Why in your opinion, do the Knicks consistently fall behind lc now we're talking about the Knicks. We should wait till Sean Atlanta. How many teams do you think are kicking themselves that they didn't go for McCollum anytime from November to February?
- [47:04]
Rob Mahoney
At least a half dozen. And I think top of that list, it has to be the Houston Rockets.
- [47:08]
Bill Simmons
Yes.
- [47:08]
Rob Mahoney
Like this was one that we flagged on group chat early in the season as far as like, what should they do post Fred Van Vliet's injury? CJ's just been sitting there on the shelf waiting for someone to trade for him. And I think a lot of teams overthought it and he couldn't be this for just anybody. Like you need the right supporting cast, you need the guards who can compensate for him defensively, you need the movement to work around the fact that he's not like the most natural playmaker in the floor in the world, but he gives them and this group like exactly the kind of squirrely one on one game that they need. And so it's turned out to be a perfect marriage. But it could have been a perfect marriage for a lot of teams.
- [47:44]
Bill Simmons
He would have really, really, really helped Houston. The thing with him is he's not a conventional point guard, but he's really comfortable with the ball, which is to me doesn't really make him any different than somebody Like Donovan Mitchell. Right. They're guards who can bring the ball up. They're not point guards, they're scoring guards. But they can kind of run an offense and they can handle the ball and you can't press them. I was looking at his career. First of all, he's 34, so I think if he's the leap guy, I tweeted this. If he's the making the leap guy in the playoffs, I think he'd be the oldest guy ever. It's usually we have that one guy. We're like, whoa, this guy. And there's like three days of stories about him. He, in 69 playoff games is a career average of 20 points a game. And this includes his first year. He scored 0.7 points a game for six playoff games when he barely played in 2019 when they made the conference finals and lost to the Warriors. He played 19 playoff games and he was 24.7 points a game. 44, 39, 73. Made three threes a game. And in his career, he's basically been between 18 and 25 a game since 2016.
- [48:54]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [48:55]
Bill Simmons
It's really weird to me that none of these contending teams and I kind of wish I had made a bigger deal out of my pot. I didn't even think of it because he was. Seemed so buried in Washington. It just seemed like he was going to get bought out and join somebody. But it's weird to me that some of these teams that could have needed him. I think the Lakers are another one that could have. Even though they ended up with Canard. And I think that worked out. But you go through the league and I don't know, man. This guy's a professional scorer and he hasn't really lost a step.
- [49:20]
Rob Mahoney
Especially if you have any solid playmaking from 2 to 4 in your starting lineup. Like a Jalen Johnson type player is.
- [49:27]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [49:27]
Rob Mahoney
Then yeah. Why wouldn't you invest in a guy who isn't running your offense? Sure. But can connect enough players and attract enough attention to really get things going. I really do think a lot of teams overthought it. And I think we're seeing now where, like, I want to be very clear that this is not like a vintage CJ McCollum performance. You're right that this is a leap. Right. This is a dramatic shift. Not just in how he's performing and then like the moments that he's stepping up into, but he has a usage right now in the playoffs that's like above Ant and Donovan Mitchell and these other guys. We're talking about. He is. He's dominating an offense whereas before he was scoring in one. And it turns out he can do that on a team like this, at least in this sort of series where he has these sorts of matchups. And this is what is so mystifying about that final score. Like the go ahead bucket against Deuce McBride. He had been killing every Deuce McBride's size defender that the Knicks put in front of him all game. He gave Deuce the too small after he busted his ass on like a first quarter, second quarter possession. And Josh Hart had done a little bit better. A little bit of size has gone a long way and kind of containing CJ over the course of the game. And yet on a critical defensive possession, you're just going to guard him with Deuce McBride. Like why would you do that?
- [50:40]
Bill Simmons
Dumbfounding. I actually did research on this during the game. When you throw in CJ who they're obviously going to resign now, maybe at a lesser deal, but they have a lot of cap space too.
- [50:53]
Rob Mahoney
He's the second greatest Hawk of all time. You have to bring him back.
- [50:55]
Bill Simmons
You have to bring him back. It's him and Bob Pettit 2A and 2B and they have Jalen Johnson, Daniels. They have Alexander Walker under contract. A Kongwu who was terrific tonight.
- [51:05]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, he's really good.
- [51:06]
Bill Simmons
I'm sure they're going to bring back Kaminga.
- [51:08]
Rob Mahoney
That's another one on a congu that the final defensive possession where Jalen Brunson could have theoretically won it. Yeah, I think attention is going to be drawn in a lot of different ways. Maybe we'll just gloss over it or Jalen Brunson will get blamed for not scoring in that situation or whatever. If you watch Ayeka a Kongwu because Dyson Daniels is guarding Brunson, he gets hung up on I think was probably like a moving cat screen to be honest with you. Yeah, a Congu sees it, busts ass across the court to get to Brunson, stalls out the whole possession, basically saves the game which is like situational open awareness. And Akongu's having a great series. This was an awesome game for me.
- [51:42]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I agree. I must. I'm a mild stockholder. I don't have a huge position but I have bought some Akongu stock over the years. Kaminga which listen, I don't think there's a lot of teams he makes sense for, but he makes sense on this team.
- [51:56]
Rob Mahoney
Clearly.
- [51:57]
Bill Simmons
It's like some seeing somebody like crime 101 and you know, just seeing a couple of the actors, that movie like, all right, for this movie, that's fine. Halle Berry, great. But they have this New Orleans pick too.
- [52:11]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [52:12]
Bill Simmons
And they actually, it's the better of that picker, Milwaukee. So they have a couple chances getting the top four. So I asked Rembert, like, is this the best time to be a hawks fan since 1988, which was the year that Dominique's peak. Doc Rivers, Antoine Carr, Cliff Livingston, they take the Celtics to seven. Dominique and Bird had the amazing duel. Dominic's one of the best players in the league. And since then, the only other peaks for them, they. I mean, they were pretty good in that. They had a couple of 90s where they had like 50 win teams that were fun. They had that 2015 season with Horford and all those dudes, the joint players
- [52:52]
Rob Mahoney
of the week and Mike Budenholzer. Did they win 60 that year?
- [52:54]
Bill Simmons
They won 60. They got swept in the Eastern finals and then 21, they made the Eastern Finals. They had that weird Sixers series win when Ben Simmons, his career ended and Trae Young made a couple plays.
- [53:06]
Rob Mahoney
Sure.
- [53:06]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah.
- [53:07]
Bill Simmons
And they made the Eastern finals. Nobody really took them seriously. But I think the combo of them playing well, but the fact that they actually have a foundation, they have the best foundation I think they've had in a long time. I honestly think since, since the 80s. Because when you throw in that New Orleans pick and how good this draft is, this is just going to be a really good team for a while.
- [53:28]
Rob Mahoney
I suspect so. But we also said the same thing after that 20, 21 run, like. Cause it was Trey, it was DeAndre Hunter, it was Kevin Herder. It was like a lot of guys who were on the come up who now with the benefit of hindsight, we know didn't really pay.
- [53:41]
Bill Simmons
We got fooled by Trey Young a little bit. Well, we also got fooled by the Sixers and Ben Simmons. And yeah, you look back, and that was definitely one of those. The wool got pulled over our eyes series.
- [53:52]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, yeah. But this, this, this does not feel that way.
- [53:55]
Bill Simmons
No, no. This feels like a. I know what they are. I think they have a real identity. I think in the draft they can really add somebody who could be special. And if they bring Kaminga and CJ back at reasonable deals, like there's something here. All right, so that's the positive version of the Atlanta Knicks series. We're going to take a break and then we're bringing Sean Fantasy for the, for the Knicks heart attack section of this, this episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable Internet means everything for your business and even this podcast. That's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with Internet, advanced wi, fi, phone, tv, mobile services plus 24. 7 US based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business so visit spectrum.combusiness to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to you by New Era. All right, if you love the 90s NBA, listen up. New Era just dropped the Hardwood Classics 90s collection and it's stacked. It pays respect to the golden era of basketball with iconic teams like the Bulls, Rockets, Spurs, Suns and Pistons. Obviously my favorite is the Celtics. I was really jealous of the 90s Suns, hats, jerseys, shirts, everything but Celtics was my team. Plus 90s all star game caps complete with host team side patches for that authentic throwback feel. Available in a wide range of fitted and adjustable styles. Visit newer cap.comringer to shop now and use one time code Ringer for 20% off your first order all right, I was thinking about this guy today. There was a moment on the double TVs where the jets were on the clock at 16 right as the Knicks were trying to close out the Hawks with 20 seconds left. And I was cause Sean was supposed to come on tonight and I was like, it's possible Sean might have an aneurysm right now.
- [55:46]
Sean Fennessy
You forgot about one thing. What did I forget while that was happening? The Mets were winning seven to three and they've been in the midst of this terrible tailspin and the bases were loaded and they pulled the starting or they pulled the pitcher and they brought in a reliever to pitch to the bases loaded. So the bases were loaded into 73 game. In the 8th inning, the Knicks were down by 1 point with 7 seconds to go and the jets pick came in. This happened simultaneously.
- [56:16]
Bill Simmons
Unbelievable. Sports is the best. Today was just incredible with the sports that was happening.
- [56:20]
Sean Fennessy
But do you know what happened? Do you guys know what I mean?
- [56:23]
Bill Simmons
Well, you took a tight end, even though you took a tight end at number 42 last year.
- [56:27]
Sean Fennessy
And that was by far the best thing that had happened in that moment because the Mets gave up a grand slam to tie the game and blow the lead. And the Knicks lost when their best player fumbled the ball into the back court in the final seven seconds. So that was one of the more convulsive 35 seconds in sports routing history for me that I can remember.
- [56:45]
Rob Mahoney
I do feel like this pod is Bill's euphoria And Sean is the Sydney Sweeney at this moment. Like you've brought him in just to cry. I think it's a little gratuitous.
- [56:53]
Bill Simmons
Sean dress naked like a catcher. No, we. We agreed today, win or lose, and I, I genuinely thought the Knicks were going to win today. Yeah, I thought it had all the classic whatever, but. Yeah. All right, so where do you want to start, Sean? You're down 2:1 in the series. You have the Celtics waiting in round two, hopefully. Maybe not. Maybe Embiid comes back. Who knows?
- [57:18]
Rob Mahoney
Might do.
- [57:18]
Sean Fennessy
We'll see about that. We will see about that.
- [57:20]
Bill Simmons
Cleveland looked like hot garbage. Then in Toronto, the East, the seas have parted for the Knicks in the east. And then you're down 2:1 somehow.
- [57:28]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah, I don't. I don't feel good about the series and I don't feel good about the team, and I haven't for roughly the last two and a half months of the season. And if you watch them play the Hawks in March, a game that they won, but they seemed severely unprepared for, and CJ McCollum also went off in that game and they didn't have an answer for him. And so, yeah, I'm already kind of spinning my wheels on. I guess they're going to have to blow this up. And they've also probably made a mistake with Mike Brown, but I'm a catastrophist, so, you know, maybe. Maybe things will be fine. It's foolish, I think, to lose faith in Jalen Brunson. He has proven that he is worthy of a little bit more faith than what I'm usually willing to grant. But this is two games in a row where this is. This game was sort of. Maybe you guys talked about this, but this game was sort of the inverse, where they were in control for most of game two. And then they really spit the bit in the fourth quarter and then they played so terrifically well in the fourth quarter of this game. And OG Anunoby has my heart forever. I just love him so much. And they just kind of lost it in the final moments. And I thought the defensive alignment in the final possession against the Hawks was super weird, going so small and then they gave up an eight footer because they went so small, and then Brunson just lost the ball. I thought the Hawks double teaming him there and just kind of moving away from Hart. Why Hart was even on the floor offensively in that final possession is something you can debate and I didn't think was smart. So, yeah, I don't know Feel like shit. Always feel like shit about sports. What am I supposed to do, man?
- [58:57]
Bill Simmons
Three first rounders today. You did that at least.
- [58:59]
Sean Fennessy
That was cool. Yeah, I'm actually kind of into that. We can talk about that if you want.
- [59:02]
Bill Simmons
Rob, do you have the Catastrophist on 4K?
- [59:05]
Sean Fennessy
Blu Ray, Italian film, 1964.
- [59:09]
Rob Mahoney
The special features are unbelievable. Honestly, great doc footage.
- [59:14]
Bill Simmons
We. Can we talk about Mikhail Bridges? And this becoming one of the weirdest stories in the NBA?
- [59:19]
Rob Mahoney
I think we have to talk about Mikhail bridges.
- [59:21]
Bill Simmons
He had zero points in the second half of game two, and he had zero points in game three. It's zero. And was basically benched for the entire fourth quarter for McBride. And it's not like McBride was shutting anybody down. Rob, what has happened to Mikael Bridges?
- [59:40]
Rob Mahoney
I would say that this was a weird occurrence if it hadn't been happening for, like, a month straight now, on and off. Like, he's had so many of these games where, like, you would have to work really hard to have less of an impact on the flow of basketball than Mikhail Bridges did in this game. Like, completely transparent. He hasn't always been the defender he's been hyped up to be for the Knicks, but this was an especially glaring case of that. I thought Deuce was, like, easily outplaying him. Like, it really was an easy call to trade out some of those minutes, but they need something, like, just desperately, literally any sign of life from that spot.
- [60:14]
Bill Simmons
I would have thought he was. I thought him and OJ Would have been so important in this series against the Hawks Wings. That's the weirdest thing. Like, if there was a series for him, this would be one of the series, I would think.
- [60:25]
Rob Mahoney
But OG lived up, and I don't say Josh Hart lived up. Right. How much of the Knicks play in this game resorted to flounder your way through a possession and then get bailed out at the last possible moment by either OG or Josh Hart or I guess, like a desperate Deuce McBride. Three. Like, those were the only options.
- [60:40]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, OG hit two. Absolutely ludicrous. Shot buzzer, shot clock, buzzer saving heaves that went in that. I think if either of them don't go in, we're probably not even in the final minute in a close game. Like, it really felt like they swung momentum.
- [60:56]
Sean Fennessy
I think fans would probably feel like the Knicks are even more out of this series than it feels like right now, because this is a game that, like, maybe kind of got away from them, but they were getting beat pretty much. I mean, they were down 18 at one point. So it's one of those things where it's usually one of the wings that comes up short when they don't perform well. And sometimes it's Hart and sometimes it's og. And more recently, especially this season, it seems like Mikhail has just still not been able to figure out what his role is, how he makes sense. He just kind of stands in the corner a lot of the time and waits for someone to maybe pass him the ball. And I think fans feel like this was an ill conceived trade from the moment it happened. And now that we're multi years into it and he's already been given a new contract, I mean, he's making a lot of money. To be scoring zero points in six straight quarters in the playoffs, it's kind of depressing.
- [61:47]
Bill Simmons
It's kind of how I feel about them locking down Miami Vice 1985, but with Austin Butler as Sonny Crockett, like they just kind of shot. They had a great idea and just shot their wad without really thinking about it.
- [62:00]
Sean Fennessy
Has it been confirmed that he's playing Sonny and not Tubbs? Because I think the move is to race swap is to make MDJ Sonny.
- [62:11]
Bill Simmons
Oh my God.
- [62:13]
Sean Fennessy
What do you think?
- [62:14]
Bill Simmons
That broke my brain. Unbelievable.
- [62:18]
Sean Fennessy
I mean, NBJ has Sonny quality.
- [62:20]
Bill Simmons
That makes way more sense.
- [62:22]
Sean Fennessy
So why not do it?
- [62:24]
Bill Simmons
That's a great idea. Wow. That's why you launched a new newsletter this week about movies, because you have great ideas like that.
- [62:31]
Sean Fennessy
I love movies.
- [62:32]
Bill Simmons
You really love those movies. So Bridges, is. Is this salvageable?
- [62:40]
Rob Mahoney
What is. What is this? I think the problem is not just Bridges, it's that to also catastrophize a little bit. This is a Knicks team that has felt like they are one bad day away all season from never speaking to each other ever again. And maybe that is a little bit of projection on our part. Maybe that's a little body language doctoring here and there, but I don't know. They just don't feel connected in terms of the way that they play. And you can tell that when they really do run into walls, guys like Bridges feel completely iced out. They don't know how to contribute. Sean, I think you absolutely nailed it that he's just kind of like idling off to the side as they try to figure out some problem, like try to figure out some solution to everything else that ails them. And it just. He's not really a participant in it at all.
- [63:21]
Bill Simmons
I'll tell you the body language. Doctor, my front desk was multiple calls today during the game, multiple texts, wondering if I was noticing what was happening. The only person who seemed remotely happy to be there was Jose Alvarado, who was like, guys, I'll buy in. I'll be the cheerleader bench guy and try to give everybody some good energy. They would cut to the Knicks bench after big plays. And you could just kind of tell when a team's not that connected. My bigger thing is, if you ask, if you go Nick by Nick, who feels like they're totally happy with how everything's going, it's probably just Brunson, and OG would be the. And maybe Miles McBride. I don't know. What do you think, Sean?
- [64:02]
Sean Fennessy
Even OG at times, you can kind of see him being like, shouldn't this be my team? I feel that from him at times where he's feeling. There was a moment in the fourth quarter where Brunson brought the ball up and was doubled, and OG Set a high screen, and Brunson went past the screen, and it didn't seem like he was going to pass the ball when the double came back to him, and then he did pass it to OG And OG Went to the basket and he got fouled. And I watched OG Go back to Brunson and almost say to him, like, more of that. Like, you can see the ball back. And I think that's really interesting, just because he's obviously, if he's a number one, it's not a very good team, but he's a really interesting number two. And on this team, he's number three. And the name that we haven't said is Karl Anthony Towns, who is, like, the enigma of enigmas. And I thought was, like, at times, brilliant defensively in this game.
- [64:52]
Bill Simmons
Really good defensively.
- [64:53]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [64:54]
Sean Fennessy
And impossible to figure out offensively. Like, I just don't know what to expect from him. And so, you know, I don't know. I don't know what you do with Bridges. You can't take Hart off the team because he's the heart and soul of it and he's Brunson's boy. But also, there are times when he's on the floor and you're like, this isn't really a rotation player in a functioning offense. And so they're just a series of awkwardly fitting parts and have been that for two and a half years. And yet this is the best Knicks team since, like, 1998. So it's so weird. It's just a weird situation.
- [65:29]
Bill Simmons
Well, and then also, it's a team that, if you played Boston in a series, you would have a ton of confidence as dysfunctional as the Knicks at bed.
- [65:35]
Rob Mahoney
That's true.
- [65:36]
Bill Simmons
And Hart was the best guy on the team in game two and was pretty indispensable today. But I agree with you, it never adds up. What is your Josh Hart take, Mahoney? Just in general, I have a hard
- [65:47]
Rob Mahoney
time talking myself into him holistically for exactly this reason. It's like when he's great, everything he does is super loud and incredibly impressive. It feels completely indispensable. And then when he's anything less than great, his flaws really drag an offense and completely devolve its flow. And I think all of these things are connected. Right. When Jalen Brunson gets a little bit ball hoggy, some of it's because maybe a defense isn't guarding Josh Hart very much and he's having to over dribble to get where he wants to go. Carl Anthony Towns being, yes, really good defensively in a game like this, but maybe the most complicated star in the entire league. If you just wanted to crank up how much he gets the ball, like, he'll just commit four offensive fouls or he'll have heinous turnover. So it's like you have to work around all of these different things, hard included, to make the Knicks go. And sometimes you just run into walls all game long, like they seem to in this one.
- [66:39]
Bill Simmons
Sean, do you like this Knicks team?
- [66:46]
Sean Fennessy
I mean, I love Jalen Brunson, you know, like, I just, I think he's really special and I want him to be great. I want him to be a forever Knick, and I want him to reach the place that I think he deserves to be. And I didn't really get the Cat trade and I didn't get the Bridges trade. And it has kind of worked insofar as they just win 50 games every year now, which, you know, as recently as five years ago seemed impossible. So I can't. It's not like I dislike them. I really like them. And yet, like I told you the other night, like, I. I wasn't like, I have to see every single second of this game because I feel like every game is kind of the same. Yeah. And even in the playoffs, they're down 10.
- [67:28]
Bill Simmons
They rally back.
- [67:29]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah. And so that's a different relationship to the team that I had even a few years ago, before the Cat Bridges era, when Tibbs was trying to grind, you know, Derrick Rose and turn him into 2014 Derrick Rose. So I don't know if I love them. I really, I love Brunson it's hard to not think about Giannis right now and, like, what this could have been and if they had just pushed a little bit harder. Yeah. You know, so I'm really torn. I still think there's a good chance that they win this series, even though they're down 2:1.
- [68:01]
Bill Simmons
Yes.
- [68:01]
Sean Fennessy
And I agree with what you said, Bill. I think against Boston, we've seen it once before and we match up well with the wings and a couple of really bad three point shooting games from the Celtics, and we could be back in the Eastern Conference finals and anything can happen after that. But tonight sucked.
- [68:17]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, it's a weird basketball thing. Cause I think Minnesota has it against Denver, too. The Knicks have it against the Celtics. These certain matchups where you can tell the team's like, we really like playing this team. This is just a good one for us, you know, and this will happen in football all the time where the right football team plays the right football team and they're just, they're feeling good the whole time. I. I think there's a crazy what if with this Knicks team that probably doesn't get discussed enough. And I'm not just saying this. So Sean dips his head in a vat of acid.
- [68:46]
Rob Mahoney
Are you sure you're not.
- [68:47]
Bill Simmons
The Halliburton shot, I really think is a sliding doors for this Knicks era, because I. I just think they probably win that series. I think that was such a bizarre basketball event. That's the weirdest collapse. And that shot going up 30ft and coming down and going in, and then the Knicks almost winning an OT and just that whole game. I just feel like if we play that game 30 times, the Knicks probably win 29 of them and maybe they make the Finals last year instead of the Pacers. And then this is. You're just thinking about this and talking about it completely differently. It was like, well, we were in the finals last year. Like, there's some sort of validation of what happened. But that Haliburton shot in that game in general, just flipped it. So now, like, if you lose to the Hawks in round one, this all feels like a complete failure. But if that shot misses, it's not. It's a weird point, but I do think it's a point.
- [69:42]
Sean Fennessy
Well, so how much does it. How different is it, for example, from when the first Subway, the Subway Series, when the Mets play the Yankees and they just got dominated and they made it to the World Series, and like, this is great, but they got kind of embarrassed on a big. On the big stage and likewise, when the Knicks went to the Finals and faced the spurs and they just kind of got bullied and they shouldn't have been there.
- [70:01]
Bill Simmons
Thanks for not bringing up the Patriots against the Seahawks.
- [70:04]
Sean Fennessy
Appreciate that. Yeah. Who would you guys draft? A tackle. Why would you need a tackle?
- [70:09]
Bill Simmons
I thought you.
- [70:10]
Sean Fennessy
I thought you were black. Interesting. I did. I did. I watched the whole Super Bowl.
- [70:16]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I know.
- [70:17]
Sean Fennessy
I really enjoyed it.
- [70:19]
Rob Mahoney
I think it would be one of
- [70:21]
Sean Fennessy
those things where if that Knicks team last year had gone to the Finals, they would have just gotten their doors kicked in by okc, and we would have been like, all right, cool, they made it to the Finals. But they were. They never really, like, materially had a chance to win the same way that I think this season, no one's like, well, the Knicks do have a chance to win. Like, they don't have a chance to win the Finals. They're not going to beat whoever's in the Western Conference. So it's just a little bit hard to feel like that game in particular radically changed the fortunes and future of the franchise.
- [70:45]
Bill Simmons
That's fair.
- [70:46]
Sean Fennessy
But it doesn't mean that that series was not any less painful. And the one thing that on all my Knicks chains today, a lot of, like, this is the Pacers all over again. Pacers all over again. It's like, bad matchup. We don't have an answer for this particular player, and a couple things are not going our way. A lot of sloppiness. The head coach seems to have misunderstood the assignment in this matchup. Like, a lot of similar kinds of vibes. And this is the first round and not the second round.
- [71:12]
Rob Mahoney
But you know what?
- [71:12]
Sean Fennessy
They were in this position last year with the Pistons, and they prevailed. So we'll see what happens.
- [71:16]
Rob Mahoney
Well, even down to the second half of the Hawks season being such a resurgent thing, just like the Pacers were like, I think a lot of opponents are still trying to get a feel for what exactly the Hawks are. I don't blame the Knicks for being caught a little bit off guard. I wasn't expecting CJ McCollum to turn into Jesus Christ, but he just has. And now he could do no wrong. And this is the world we live in.
- [71:37]
Bill Simmons
Sean, will you stick around for a couple other small basketball conversations?
- [71:40]
Sean Fennessy
I will, but you must be feeling great as a longtime CJ Guy. I know CJ Was one of your boys back in the day. Bill.
- [71:45]
Bill Simmons
I always really liked him. I really thought that Houston. It's just so funny that Houston didn't get him and needs him so desperately in this Lakers series. And they just have to be like, what the hell? Can we talk about okc?
- [71:58]
Rob Mahoney
Absolutely.
- [71:59]
Bill Simmons
I really feel like. And it's Internet driven and social media doesn't mean everything, but I just, in discourse I have with people in my life, like, everybody's just like, fuck this. Like, they're just tired of the style and some of it's not fair, but it's really risen to villain level. And I was wondering, they flop and they foul bait enough that. Do we just give them the nickname Oklahoma City fc? Cause they're like a soccer team. Does that work for you guys?
- [72:28]
Rob Mahoney
You kind of have to walk your way there. I think we need something a little more straightforward.
- [72:32]
Bill Simmons
If we had a Premier League team in the NBA, it would be Oklahoma City.
- [72:35]
Sean Fennessy
Oklahoma City. The Bayern Thunder. Yeah, there's some sort of Atletico Thunder.
- [72:40]
Bill Simmons
I just want to workshop some sort of soccer thing with them. But, Rob, how. How fair is the hatred of the tricks that OKC pulls? Because the bottom line is it works. And that's the whole point of, you know, you're trying to win, you're doing whatever you can.
- [72:53]
Rob Mahoney
It does work. Some of it is, I think, quite earned. Like, Shay does exaggerate a lot of contact. I think that what frustrates a lot of people is just the different thresholds. Right. Of you can't touch Shay, but they're allowed to just swarm and hack defensively and be ultra aggressive. To me, that feels consistent with everything we've ever seen in modern NBA history, which is once you get a reputation for being good at something, the refs will mostly just assume that you're doing that great thing again. Like, if you look at the players who get away with the most travels, it's all the guys with amazing footwork, because you just think, oh, they pulled it off. Oh, they kept their pivot. I think the Thunder came by a lot of this stuff, honestly, in terms of how physically they play defensively. But they do get an incredible benefit of the doubt. And then some of it's just not really their fault. Like, it's not their fault that Devin Booker got called for one of the worst technical fouls I have ever seen in an NBA game. Like, that's not really a Thunder issue so much as it's like, Thunder adjacent.
- [73:46]
Bill Simmons
Sean, I know you have a take, and you've been known to just irrationally hate random things.
- [73:51]
Sean Fennessy
I'm imagining a Thunder Celtics finals and just what it. Speaking of catastrophes, I mean, that would be a global catastrophe and a very complicated NBA season, I will say, in the perception of the league. Who's excited for that, Bill? Who's pumped? Besides you, obviously. Who's like, thunder, Celtics. I'd love to watch that for seven consecutive games.
- [74:12]
Bill Simmons
I think the spurs getting to the finals would be the win for the league.
- [74:16]
Sean Fennessy
I agree.
- [74:17]
Bill Simmons
I'll be interested to see. I mean, obviously the Lakers getting in would be their wet dream, but I think the spurs making it all the way would be the. What they would want would be my guess. Spurs, anyone would be the ideal Finals.
- [74:30]
Rob Mahoney
Sure.
- [74:31]
Bill Simmons
Joker going for a second one would be more fun than OKC trying to go back to back. And the Celtics thing, look, if you don't love sports movies and Jayson Tatum coming back from his darkest hour, rising from the ashes and coming back, then I don't know what to tell you. You don't like sports movies. You didn't like Christie with Sydney Sweeney.
- [74:51]
Sean Fennessy
Obviously that could have been better. I think that movie just like I think the finals could be better if it were. I don't know. Detroit, San Antonio. That would be interesting, right, Nick? San Antonio would be magic.
- [75:03]
Rob Mahoney
I feel like y' all are selling the Thunder a little bit short as an entertainment product. I get that they are despised because of some of their tactics, but like, their defense is very fun to watch in a. Like watching a cheetah chase down a gazelle in the open range kind of way. Like I, I do. I do like the state of nature that they create.
- [75:21]
Bill Simmons
I like watching the Thunder as well. I, I hate the foul stuff, but they're not the only team that does it. But I, I feel the same way, Rob. I think they're. I actually the problem with them is they're up 20 in the second quarter of a lot of these games. You're like, all right, that sucks.
- [75:36]
Sean Fennessy
Don't you think it would become a pretty significant national talking point though, if somehow, miraculously the Knicks got to the finals and faced the Thunder. And then two chief foul baiters in the league were toe to toe. I mean, how many pods could you do about that particular issue? Because you know, Brunson got love him. He has his ways, right?
- [75:56]
Bill Simmons
He does, he does.
- [75:58]
Rob Mahoney
The people who don't watch the NBA regularly who just tune in for the finals would think their broadcast is like flickering buffering with all like the pump fake jab step like pivot through the Jalen Brunson and Shea are trying to do.
- [76:09]
Bill Simmons
Lakers. Rockets. Rockets are down 02. Austin Reeves coming back. Unbelievable. I think this is one of the most bizarre series that we've had in a while. The Rockets are down 02 to a team that basically just ran amok for the first half yesterday with Luke Kennard and Marcus Smart and 41 year old LeBron and then held on for dear life in the second half. And what's the. Sean, what just as somebody that just flicks this stuff on, what's more fun for you? The demise of the Rockets or 41 year old LeBron carrying the Lakers without Luka?
- [76:49]
Sean Fennessy
You know, Katie reminds me of recently is Kanye West. Those were two guys in like 2012. I was like, these guys are never going to lose. These guys are unbelievable. They're so naturally gifted. They're on. They're on a collision course with destiny and they will be great forever. And now is it 07 in his last seven playoff games. Kevin Durant is. And obviously not healthy and getting his ass kicked by the B team from Los Angeles. Yeah, just weird. And you know, Kanye, we can. Let's not talk about that. So yeah, I think it's unfortunate. I loved watching Kevin Durant play. He broke my heart when he didn't come to New York. And these are just desserts.
- [77:28]
Bill Simmons
37 years old. He was in the 2007 draft and probably shouldn't be the guy that's handling the ball for 37 minutes a game in a playoffs. What do you think Eman's biggest mistake was? Because he's taken a pretty big beating, Rob.
- [77:42]
Rob Mahoney
It's a pretty big list. Yeah, I would say spending the last several months not preparing the team to like function whatsoever on offense, like, these are the problems right now. But this is the same team that if you turn them on two months ago, be like, why don't they know how to play out of a double team for Kevin Durant? And here it is all coming home to roost when he's the only guy who can actually handle the ball. So if you wanted Reed shepherd to be a bigger part of your team and you need him to be a bigger part of your team, maybe you should have invested more in his actual encore development at the incremental stages of the season. It's like there's all these like long game visions of who the Rockets could have been. And it all got traded out for like IME Odoka puffing out his chest and wanting to play like grinders every night of the regular season. And I just think the Rockets are so much worse for it.
- [78:28]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I agree. It's. That's why you have the 82 game. Season's way too Long. But one of the benefits is you can keep throwing Reed shepherd out there and trying to get him experience for a series like this. Yeah, The Luke Canard thing's pretty interesting, though, because I think it's somebody we've always. I think all of us have liked and have seen the ceiling for, and it just never happened. And he would just bounce around from team to team, and then somehow JJ Redick has unlocked him, and I think JJ has been one of the stars of the playoffs.
- [78:56]
Rob Mahoney
Agreed.
- [78:56]
Bill Simmons
Beating the Rockets two games in a row without your two best guys is nuts.
- [79:01]
Sean Fennessy
Not that surprising that JJ knows what to do with Luke Canard. I mean, they have profile as players.
- [79:07]
Bill Simmons
Getting DeAndre to have a pulse is way up there. But I don't know. I was watching them in game two is as ugly as it is. They still have dad shooters. You know, they, they. I at least understood what they were doing. It wasn't always going to be successful, but there was a plan in place. Whereas, like, you watch the Rockets, you're like, I don't understand anything that you guys are doing.
- [79:27]
Sean Fennessy
When Fred Van Vliet went down, do you think they should have just tried to trade for CJ then in the off season?
- [79:33]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, that was. That was the name that got mentioned. I think part of the problem was Van Vliet would've had to be in the trade, right? Yeah.
- [79:42]
Rob Mahoney
With that kind of salary? Well, I think there probably would have been other constructions, but it would have cost you. Maybe Atari, Eason, Dorian, Finney Smith, who they thought was going to be an important part of their team. Like maybe some guys like that.
- [79:52]
Bill Simmons
Well, C.J. made, I think, 30, 30 something. And Van Boot was at 25. So they could have tried to. And they had all these extra picks. Like, it would have been pretty easy. I didn't. I didn't understand why they didn't get anybody. Like, why don't they have Dasunmu, not like they don't have picks.
- [80:08]
Rob Mahoney
Great question.
- [80:09]
Bill Simmons
They had a bunch of things they could have given up. I. It's almost like they didn't think they were going to really be competitive or they were saving themselves for next year. I didn't really understand it, but you
- [80:19]
Rob Mahoney
have Kevin Durant at his age like this again. This is the year, like you're supposed to be pushing forward once he's a member of your team and not just accepting that, oh, we got a bad break, let's let Fred rehab and we're going to see where we are next year. Like, Kevin Durant might not be a borderline 50, 40, 90 guy on this kind of production. Next year, like at some point the bottom will fall.
- [80:39]
Bill Simmons
How would you rate the playoffs so far? Rob?
- [80:42]
Rob Mahoney
I think quite good for the first round. Like an A minus B. Yeah, B plus a minus zone. Like I think if if this Nuggets Wolves game tonight had really kicked off then maybe we'd be headed into a pretty special area. But the Lakers Rockets being like a complete flip on what I thought it would be a lot of split series that are hotly contested. I mean we got two one point games in terms of the the Hawks Knicks alone. Sorry Sean, but like there's just a lot on the board here that's exciting and surprising. And then you have your CJ McCollum level stories that are just kind of catching us all off guard. This is kind of what we want.
- [81:15]
Bill Simmons
The streaming thing's been a little weird.
- [81:18]
Sean Fennessy
Don't like it.
- [81:19]
Bill Simmons
It's just weird to not be able to flip channels around. But man, I know this is going to be what the future is of all this stuff.
- [81:26]
Sean Fennessy
But tonight, because I had three specific sporting events that I was paying close attention to. I had a TV on a laptop open and my phone going with all three and I don't know if I've ever done that before. We don't all multi view quad box like you Bill. And it was honestly extremely confusing to my little daughter. She was like which one of these am I supposed to be paying attention to? And I was like none of them. Please don't be close to me right now. This is dangerous.
- [81:53]
Bill Simmons
Please leave.
- [81:56]
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- [82:56]
Bill Simmons
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- [83:36]
Rob Mahoney
Can I get a comp subscription or do I have to pay for this thing? What's going on?
- [83:39]
Sean Fennessy
The answer is yes.
- [83:40]
Rob Mahoney
Okay, then. I'm very excited about it, Sean.
- [83:44]
Bill Simmons
I paid right away because I'm wealthy and because I wanted you to have my. My money for it.
- [83:49]
Sean Fennessy
Thanks, Bill.
- [83:50]
Bill Simmons
I didn't ask you for a comp.
- [83:52]
Sean Fennessy
As you know, I'm also doing this with Spotify, so I'm not totally sure how that financial arrangement works.
- [83:57]
Bill Simmons
I just. I just wanted to throw my money into the ring.
- [83:59]
Sean Fennessy
Thank you so much.
- [84:00]
Bill Simmons
It was great to get it. You did, like, 4,000 words today. Your fingers still work. I was jealous.
- [84:05]
Sean Fennessy
I did. I might have got a little over the top in the first piece, but, yeah, it's really fun. Rob, as you know and Bill, as you used to know, and we're going to get you out of retirement and get into a newsletter at some point. It's just very. Well, yeah, we will.
- [84:18]
Rob Mahoney
We will.
- [84:18]
Sean Fennessy
I will. It's rewarding to write. It's like it's a different kind of rewarding than doing a show. And I'm enjoying it so far. It is hard. It is actually hard to sit down and focus for several consecutive hours and write something, even if it's something as silly as what I've been writing about movies. So I'm excited to be doing it. I am legitimately, like, blown away by how cool and nice people are about this, and I'm excited to do more. Next one won't be 4,000 words, but I don't know, what do you want to see me write about? What kind of what. What. What movies are you interested in, Bill?
- [84:49]
Bill Simmons
I like, first of all, I might want to have a paragraph every once in a while. I haven't. I don't know if I told you about these Lifetime movies I've been watching on Netflix.
- [85:01]
Sean Fennessy
You did, yeah.
- [85:02]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I did. I did tell you about those gaslit by my husband. Gaslit by my husband. Nobody dumps my daughter. With what I saw this week, Netflix has finally figured out Lifetime and Netflix are the marriage everybody needs. Rob, just have a really good title and somebody with a slightly sinister face in the thumbnail. And people are gonna click on it. Two of the top ten right now. The other one was Husband, Father Killer was another good one. But this is the kind of stuff I wanna watch late at night when I'm falling asleep. I can't watch Babylon at 11:30 at night.
- [85:34]
Rob Mahoney
Sean, first of all, yes, you can.
- [85:36]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah, you absolutely can do that. I do it on the regular.
- [85:39]
Bill Simmons
I don't want to fall to Babylon.
- [85:41]
Rob Mahoney
Somebody out there is like staring at a spreadsheet of your browsing algorithmic information, being like, yeah, we got him Again, Gaslit by my husband.
- [85:49]
Bill Simmons
You got America. But you're in the top 10. You're in the top 10.
- [85:52]
Sean Fennessy
Is there not a 10 episode string of recaps of Nobody Dumps my Daughter on the Prestige TV podcast? Rob, did I miss that?
- [86:01]
Rob Mahoney
It's actually coming in June. You know, we really wanted to save it for the meatiest part of the calendar. Really, really bring people in will be one of our tent poles. I mean, this is. This is what the people want.
- [86:09]
Bill Simmons
I used to be more involved with the planning and ideation of Prestige tv. And then I let Joanna and Rob kind of sent them on their raft and pushed them in the ocean. And it's worked out 95% of the time. But then occasionally there'll be the three episodes on Beef where I'm like, we probably could have wrapped this up in 40 minutes. I don't know if you saw.
- [86:30]
Rob Mahoney
Did you.
- [86:30]
Bill Simmons
You finished Beef, Rob?
- [86:31]
Rob Mahoney
I did. That's a Prestige product. You're. You're telling me an Oscar Isaac, Carey Mulligan, Kaylee Smith, Charles Melton show.
- [86:37]
Bill Simmons
We could have ripped through it.
- [86:39]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, no. Absolutely not.
- [86:41]
Bill Simmons
I can't say I. I can't say I finished Beef. There's gotta be one of those. They have those ratings at the end where it's thumbs up, thumbs down. I wish there were, like, more options.
- [86:51]
Rob Mahoney
What do you want?
- [86:52]
Bill Simmons
This kept my interest for a few hours, but ultimately I'm not sure it was worth my time.
- [86:57]
Sean Fennessy
It comes out halfway through episode three. That's me. On most TV shows, I hung on
- [87:01]
Bill Simmons
as long as I could. Yeah. The one that we're not covering on Prestige, that I've. I'm ashamed to admit I'm enjoying is Imperfect Women.
- [87:12]
Sean Fennessy
Oh, the Apple series.
- [87:14]
Rob Mahoney
I don't even know what this show is, what is perfect Women go well about.
- [87:18]
Bill Simmons
It's actors. Apple's strategy is it's actors or actresses that you've heard of and liked, but probably haven't really resonated with them in about four years. And now they're in a show where somebody dies in the first three minutes, and then we go backwards to try to figure out who did it. So in this one, it's Kerry Washington, Elizabeth Moss, and Kate Mara. Long time, long time. Grantland ringer All Star. Like Rudy Gobert. Like, you go back and you look at her basketball reference, and it's like, wow, she was a Grantland All Star four straight years. We love case early 2010s. So it's the three of them, and there's a murder mystery, and you just kind of turn your brain off and go. Which I think is its own. That's not prestige tv. That's like another type of tv. But Beef was, like, a little too much work for me. There was a little too much going on. A little too much work. Yeah. And it wasn't good enough for all the work was where I landed.
- [88:08]
Sean Fennessy
Bill, I actually wanted to pitch you on a show for Apple that is based on some of the IP we have here at the Ringer. It's called Mysterious Podcasters. Three actors that look a lot like you and Rob and Chris Ryan. And, you know, we can talk about who those actors should be based on your comps, but it's the three of you guys in the tile image huddled around a single microphone. And, like, one of you is, like, nudging the other out of the way and fighting for space. And it's like a dramedy, you know, it's not drama. There are laughs in it, but also there's like, a real mystery at the center. One of you killed one of your former podcast partners, and we have to figure out who did it.
- [88:48]
Bill Simmons
Well, Greenwald dies. He's in the first scene.
- [88:50]
Rob Mahoney
He's dead.
- [88:52]
Bill Simmons
And then it turns out at the end, Chris wanted to watch for himself, but nobody realized that for seven episodes.
- [88:57]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah, Mysterious Podcasters coming soon to Apple tv.
- [89:00]
Bill Simmons
Plus, I really like that.
- [89:01]
Rob Mahoney
It feels like a written by Jason Segel production. I feel like he could nail the tone of exactly what we're talking about.
- [89:06]
Sean Fennessy
You and Jason Segel are about the same height, Rob.
- [89:08]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I'm. Seriously, Rob.
- [89:10]
Rob Mahoney
You know what? I'm not opposed to it. Let's get Jason on the phone.
- [89:13]
Sean Fennessy
He used to ball as well.
- [89:15]
Bill Simmons
The key with these shows is the thumbnail and the title does 97% of the work. You really have to nail both. Like, beef is great. It's four letters, and you could just put some sort of crazy thumbnail and you're ready to roll. But I mean, so, Sean, I. I deep dive the binge. The. The Pit did.
- [89:35]
Sean Fennessy
Oh, yeah, I heard you talking to Joe about it.
- [89:36]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I did two straight seasons in about five days, and now I just have a hole in my heart. It's just gone.
- [89:44]
Rob Mahoney
Well, they can fix that. You just got to roll into the ER. They'll get you fixed up.
- [89:47]
Bill Simmons
I'm just waiting for Dr. Robbie just to figure out what happened with him. But it's. It's so funny that they just unlock this strategy of, hey, it's going to be a doctor series like everything else, except it's going to be every hour and it's going to be grosser than a network show.
- [90:03]
Sean Fennessy
My. My biggest challenge with the Pit is I did really enjoy when TV shows had 22 episodes in a season. And it felt like we were spending a lot of time with these characters and building a relationship with them. I like you, Bill. Was a huge ER fan. Watched every episode of the first, like six or seven seasons. At this stage of my life, when they're like, yeah, there's going to be 18 episodes in this season, I'm like, I nope, I am Wiley. I won't be there. Yeah, like, good luck. Sounds like you guys have got an Emmy winning product. Happy for Noah Wiley, but I just can't find the time. I'm sorry. Look at all these Blu Rays.
- [90:35]
Rob Mahoney
You know, you say this, but when it comes time to do the Transformers hall of Fame, you're like, yeah, let me just mainline these real quick.
- [90:40]
Sean Fennessy
I mean, I don't even have to prepare for that. We can do it right here.
- [90:43]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. The irony of you saying that when it's. You're doing like a 1978 hall of Fame draft or movie movie draft, and then you watch 20 movies from 1978 in the span of three days, but it doesn't have time for Dr. Robbie.
- [90:59]
Sean Fennessy
But that's like saying to an architect, why are you spending all those. All that time drawing those blueprints? You know, like, this is. This is the raw materials. These are the. This is. These are the brain gems that are necessary to make that. That draft or that hall of Fame. You know, the Pit is like, that's something you do in your free time. And 18 of them. No, I'm good.
- [91:20]
Bill Simmons
You're missing Nurse Dana, though, who would be one of your Favorite characters of all time. Who.
- [91:25]
Sean Fennessy
What's her story?
- [91:26]
Bill Simmons
She's just the one that. That sucks everyone in who jumps in on the pit after one episode. They're like, I love Dana. I don't know. What is it about Dana Rye? I can't even describe her.
- [91:34]
Rob Mahoney
She's just a gruff, real, talking, you know, nurse running the placement in charge. That appeals to a lot of people.
- [91:40]
Bill Simmons
Pittsburgh accent, goes out, has. Has cigarettes outside the front door of the hospital.
- [91:46]
Rob Mahoney
Just dart after dart after dart.
- [91:47]
Sean Fennessy
Just sounds more CR speed than mine.
- [91:50]
Bill Simmons
Oh, it is not just CR speed. It is CR is in fifth gear. CR is at an F1 course, flying around. Ciara and I simultaneously were watching season one of Miami Vice and he kind of floated a. Why wouldn't we just recap season one at Miami Vice? And we decided that would be the all time one for us. I don't think America wants it. I don't think we can get a sponsor for it. I don't know what feed it would go on. But we did talk about it.
- [92:22]
Rob Mahoney
Maybe you just need the newspag of the new movie. Oh, I was gonna say if you
- [92:25]
Sean Fennessy
want me to host it on the newsletter, then that that's an option just to get everybody Prepped for Miami Vice 85. There's video capabilities, you know, on the newsletter. Yeah, sure.
- [92:35]
Bill Simmons
We could do like little 10 minute episodes.
- [92:38]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah, I mean, I'm not planning to do that because I'm already. This is my fourth podcast of today, but I.
- [92:43]
Bill Simmons
Is it really.
- [92:45]
Sean Fennessy
It is really just a bad coincidence.
- [92:49]
Bill Simmons
Fourth podcast?
- [92:50]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah, I'm not. I never do that, but I'm promoting the newsletter. Also. The Mets are on fire, so I had to talk to Zach earlier this morning.
- [92:57]
Bill Simmons
The newsletter is called Projections. You're also going to be on. Not the upcoming Rewatchables because we did Ghostbusters, but you're on the one after the next one.
- [93:07]
Sean Fennessy
I've been pumped about it. Yeah, I'm really excited about the next one.
- [93:09]
Bill Simmons
Won't say what it is yet, but we're doing a bunch of comedies next month. Rob. Rob's come on the Rewatchables twice and had two of the hottest takes in
- [93:16]
Sean Fennessy
the history of the show.
- [93:17]
Rob Mahoney
They're very normal takes.
- [93:19]
Bill Simmons
He said Russell Crowe and nice guys dog walked Gladiator for the Oscar was the last one.
- [93:26]
Rob Mahoney
No, I said Joaquin dog walked Russell Crowe. It's a very important distinction.
- [93:31]
Bill Simmons
Sorry I screwed that up. Yeah,
- [93:37]
Sean Fennessy
I'm very familiar with the Nirvana take. I believe that you should be sentenced to prison and spend the rest of Your life there for that take. But it was really good podcasting.
- [93:50]
Rob Mahoney
Thank you. I appreciate it. As long as it's white collar, as long as I can play a little pickup basketball, have a nice cafeteria lunch. Like, I'm not opposed to some prison time.
- [93:57]
Sean Fennessy
No, you're going under the prison in the gulag, and you'll be tortured every day.
- [94:03]
Rob Mahoney
But at least I'll be my authentic self, unlike all of the members of the grunge movement.
- [94:08]
Sean Fennessy
That's really. How dare you? And sorry. And wipe that smirk off your face right now. I'm gonna get violent here, Bill.
- [94:17]
Bill Simmons
I blew him. Sean and Chris and Yassi. I was saying how the whole Replacements now retroactively being on the same level as REM Is one of the things that infuriates me the most about what's happened with music in the last 35 years. And that devolved into basically a screaming match on text. But the important thing to know is I was right.
- [94:39]
Sean Fennessy
Well noted, Rob. How are you gonna follow that up, though? Now every time you're on the show, you have to come with some nuclear take. And you spoke of men like Eddie Vedder and Chris Cornell being inauthentic. But now when you perform a take, we'll know you have reached beyond the pale.
- [94:58]
Rob Mahoney
I think I just can't go on the rewatchables again. I think I just gotta, like, take my bow, exit through the fire escape.
- [95:04]
Bill Simmons
We're bringing you on for From Hell month. You're not gonna miss From Hell month in June. It's five movies.
- [95:09]
Sean Fennessy
Oh, wow.
- [95:09]
Rob Mahoney
That does sound quite exciting.
- [95:11]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. From Hell. All right, Sean, good luck with projections.
- [95:14]
Rob Mahoney
Thanks.
- [95:14]
Bill Simmons
Mahoney can hear you on Prestige TV and watching there, as well as Ringer NBA with. How's the new guy, Kyle Mann? That's going all right.
- [95:24]
Rob Mahoney
Kyle's crushing it.
- [95:25]
Bill Simmons
New guy energy.
- [95:26]
Rob Mahoney
New guy energy. A very particular energy from Kyle Mann, but I think he brings us a folksiness that we desperately needed. Us coastal elites, for sure.
- [95:34]
Bill Simmons
All right, thanks for popping on. See you guys.
- [95:37]
Rob Mahoney
Thanks, Bill.
- [95:38]
Sean Fennessy
Thanks, Bill.
- [95:39]
Bill Simmons
All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Mahoney and Sean. Thanks to Gahao and Eduardo as well. Don't forget about the rewatchables, which went up Monday at Kindergarten Cop. Don't forget about Legata. Please check that out. New Ringer original series. And I am going to be back this weekend with Zach Lowe. We'll be coming on Netflix Live right after the last playoff basketball game, whatever it is, or whenever that game's been decided. If it's a 20 point blowout in third quarter. We'll come on earlier, so enjoy the weekend. I know it's great on the east coast right now. Wish I was back in Boston, but it's nice here in LA too. Enjoy the weekend. See you on Sunday. 21 and President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino are 18 and President in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in Required rewards are non withdrawable. Restrictions apply including bonus and token expiration leg requirements and max wager amount. See terms@sportsbook.fando.com, get a problem, call 1-800- Gamble or 1-800-My reset. Call 888-797-7777 or visit ccpg.org Chattinconenetic or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland, hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-Hopeny or text Hopeny in New York. For Louisiana, call 877-770-7867.