NFL Future Leans, the Yankees Malaise, Amy Bradley Theories, a Scheffler Makeover, and Hulk Hogan’s Career With Joe House, Jack-O, and David Shoemaker

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Bill Simmons Podcast

Episode Title: NFL Future Leans, the Yankees Malaise, Amy Bradley Theories, a Scheffler Makeover, and Hulk Hogan’s Career With Joe House, Jack-O, and David Shoemaker
Release Date: July 28, 2025
Host: Bill Simmons
Guests: Joe House, Jack-O, David Shoemaker

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1. NFL Futures and Betting Analysis

Timestamp: [04:37] - [14:39]

Bill Simmons and co-hosts Joe House and Jack-O dive deep into the upcoming NFL season, dissecting team performances, betting odds, and future prospects. The conversation centers around teams like Cincinnati, Minnesota, the Chiefs, and the Broncos, examining their strengths, weaknesses, and potential for success.

• Cincinnati Concerns:
  Joe House expresses skepticism about Cincinnati’s chances, citing issues with their offensive line and defense.

  “Cincinnati, I don't like what they're doing. They haven't improved the defense and they still don't have an answer on the offensive line.” ([04:55])

• Chiefs Optimism:
  The Chiefs receive a positive outlook thanks to roster improvements and strategic acquisitions.

  “The thing that keeps coming back to me... this is just the July take.” ([07:33])

• Broncos Potential:
  Bill highlights the Broncos’ balanced team and favorable schedule, positioning them as a strong contender.

  “Could they crack top three for the over unders...? I think things are going to shift.” ([17:20])

• Division Analysis:
  A detailed breakdown of various NFL divisions, focusing on win totals and betting strategies.

  “The AFC West is really built for it. They have the best coaches in the entire NFL.” ([32:52])

2. Yankees Organization and Performance Critique

Timestamp: [40:33] - [62:30]

A spirited discussion about the New York Yankees’ current struggles, management decisions, and player performances. The hosts critique the organization’s reluctance to invest in key positions and the overhyping of young prospects who haven’t delivered as expected.

• Management Issues:
  Jack-O criticizes the Yankees’ GM and the unparalleled job security within the organization.

  “The GM has a job for life. He's been there longer than the Pope and, like, the King of England.” ([47:37])

• Player Performance:
  The conversation highlights the underperformance of players like Anthony Volpe and the impact of injuries to stars like Aaron Judge.

  “Aaron Judge is hurt, and then you have... the recruiting of new prospects who just don’t deliver.” ([52:48])

• Prospect Overhyping:
  Jack-O laments the Yankees’ history of overhyping prospects, leading to unmet expectations.

  “They overhyped him, and he stinks, and he can't hit, but he makes up for not hitting by not being able to field either.” ([54:44])

3. Discussions on Golf: Scotty Scheffler

Timestamp: [69:14] - [88:36]

Bill Simmons and Jack-O delve into the golf world, focusing on Scotty Scheffler’s rise to prominence and the challenges he faces in terms of personality and charisma despite his impressive performances.

• Scheffler’s Performance:
  Recognizing Scheffler as one of the best golfers since Tiger Woods for his technical skills and tournament successes.

  “He’s crushing it and is unequivocally now the best golfer since Tiger Woods.” ([69:14])

• Lack of Charisma:
  The hosts discuss Scheffler’s perceived lack of personality and difficulty in connecting with fans, which could hinder his marketability and long-term legacy.

  “He doesn't exude the charisma. He's just an amazing golf robot.” ([69:42])

• Potential Storylines:
  Suggestions for narratives that could enhance Scheffler’s appeal, such as developing a rival or involving memorable moments in tournaments like the Ryder Cup.

  “Some kind of Bryson versus him or Rory versus him could help.” ([77:59])

4. Hulk Hogan’s Career Reflection with David Shoemaker

Timestamp: [91:02] - [131:22]

In a poignant segment, Bill Simmons invites wrestling historian David Shoemaker to discuss the legendary Hulk Hogan’s career, his impact on professional wrestling, and the circumstances surrounding his death.

• Hogan’s Influence:
  Shoemaker elaborates on Hogan’s role in transforming professional wrestling into a mainstream entertainment phenomenon.

  “Hogan was just a real-life superhero. He was incredibly special as a performer.” ([93:53])

• Iconic Moments:
  The discussion covers key moments in Hogan’s career, including his feuds with Andre the Giant, the formation of the NWO, and his appearances in pop culture.

  “Hogan’s match against the Rock was the biggest moment of his career.” ([115:37])

• Legacy and Controversies:
  They touch upon Hogan’s later years, the steroid trials, and his personal controversies, debating how these elements have affected his legacy.

  “Hogan had a lot of dudes, but he was the backbone of the business.” ([124:03])

• Death and Aftermath:
  Reflecting on Hogan’s passing, Shoemaker and Simmons discuss the lasting impact he left on wrestling and sports entertainment.

  “He always had the mustache, the muscles, and the tan. He lived it till the end.” ([125:45])

5. Other Topics: Happy Gilmore, Cruises, and True Crime

Timestamp: [65:50] - [120:59]

The hosts briefly touch upon various other subjects, including movie reviews, cruise ship mysteries, and true crime documentaries, adding a diverse range of content to the episode.

• Happy Gilmore Movie:
  A quick review of the classic comedy with mentions of its cameos and nostalgic value.

  “It's a must-watch if you love the first movie. It’s a mix of terrible and good.” ([78:49])

• Amy Bradley Cruise Documentary:
  Discussion on the unsettling documentary about a missing person on a cruise, highlighting the lack of resolution and the conspiracy theories that emerged.

  “It's like a three-episode Unsolved Mysteries. The behavior of everyone involved doesn’t make sense.” ([82:39])

• True Crime Enthusiasm:
  Joe House shares his appreciation for true crime podcasts and documentaries, citing shows like Making a Murderer and Mindhunter as favorites.

  “I prefer watching these horrible things over following the Yankees.’ ([86:53])

---

Notable Quotes

1. Joe House on Cincinnati:

   “Cincinnati, I don't like what they're doing. They haven't improved the defense and they still don't have an answer on the offensive line.” ([04:55])

2. Bill Simmons on Broncos:

   “Could they crack top three for the over unders...? I think things are going to shift.” ([17:20])

3. Jack-O on Yankees’ GM:

   “The GM has a job for life. He's been there longer than the Pope and, like, the King of England.” ([47:37])

4. Jack-O on Prospect Overhyping:

   “They overhyped him, and he stinks, and he can't hit, but he makes up for not hitting by not being able to field either.” ([54:44])

5. David Shoemaker on Hulk Hogan:

   “Hogan was just a real-life superhero. He was incredibly special as a performer.” ([93:53])

---

Insights and Conclusions

• NFL Analysis:
  The hosts provide a thorough examination of the upcoming NFL season, emphasizing the importance of strategic betting and recognizing potential team overhauls. Their insights offer valuable perspectives for fans and bettors alike.

• Yankees' Organizational Challenges:
  A critical look at the Yankees reveals systemic issues within the organization, from management's reluctance to invest in critical positions to the overhyping of prospects, leading to underperformance and fan frustration.

• Golf’s Professionalism vs. Charisma:
  Scotty Scheffler’s case underscores the balance between technical excellence and personal charisma in sports, suggesting that success on the field might not always translate to fan engagement and mainstream appeal.

• Hulk Hogan’s Enduring Legacy:
  The discussion with David Shoemaker highlights Hogan’s pivotal role in popularizing professional wrestling, while also acknowledging the controversies that have marred his legacy. It emphasizes the complexity of his impact on the sport and entertainment.

• Diversification of Content:
  The inclusion of movie reviews, cruise ship mysteries, and true crime narratives adds depth to the podcast, catering to a wide array of interests and demonstrating the hosts’ versatility in covering diverse topics.

---

Conclusion:

This episode of The Bill Simmons Podcast offers an extensive exploration of current sports dynamics, particularly focusing on the NFL and MLB’s iconic Yankees, while also touching upon intriguing aspects of golf and the enduring influence of Hulk Hogan in wrestling. The hosts deliver insightful analyses coupled with engaging anecdotes, making the podcast a valuable resource for fans seeking in-depth discussions and nuanced perspectives on their favorite sports and beyond.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

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[Joe House]

Yeah, I was going through the inventory. I'm always a little nervous because now with the markets open in March, like oh, so there were some numbers I liked early. I got on Green Bay to win the Super bowl at 22 to 1. That's held steady.

[Bill Simmons]

I would have booked that for you just sent that to me.

[Joe House]

I mean, no, I just winning the Super Bowl, I just like some, some of the long shot. I really, this is like, you know, some of the long shot kind of stuff. And then as, as we get more information Then I start laying in. So I, I have been over indexing my skepticism of Cincinnati this season. Just way too many bets. Like every four days I wake up in the morning and I look at the total and I'm like, Cincinnati, I don't like what they're doing. They haven't improved the defense and they still don't have an answer on the offensive line. And if Joe Burrow gets hurt, we've seen this. They are horrendous. So I keep betting against Cincinnati. I have them missing the playoffs. I have them on the under a lot of skepticism about Minnesota.

[Bill Simmons]

So that Cincinnati on Cincinnati. I talked to you about this on the phone the other day and I was saying how my theory, how they've become the fantasy football team that spent all their money, all their 200 on the three guys and then did $1 guys everywhere else. And you were like, you mean like I did in two years ago in fantasy football? And guess what? You didn't win.

[Joe House]

No, I did that more in basketball than anything else. But, yeah, either way, it's not a winning strategy.

[Bill Simmons]

It's not a winning strategy. So Raheem was on this a year ago, who's on the ringer gambling show with you and has popped on this pod from time to time about the concept of if they're out on a team, go really out, go on some of those alt unders. And so Cincinnati's what, -9 and a half is the Open total.

[Joe House]

Yeah, it's 9 and a half.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. So you're saying I think Cincinnati is going to be awful or not as good as people think, or they're one borough injury away. You're going under seven and a half. You get plus 280 on FanDuel. If you went under five and a half, which I guess would be some really.

[Joe House]

I'm not doing that.

[Bill Simmons]

Injuries that that's 8 to 1 7. We've seen this. We saw it last year with the Niners where if you had just said, you know what, I don't like the look of the Niners. I don't like the smell of them. I'm just going to go hard under and that's the way to do it. So, all right, so Cincinnati's one and I agree with you because I think they're top heavy and I think the odds are reflecting the ideal situation with all their playmakers. I don't like teams that can't block and can't cover. So that's a problem.

[Joe House]

The thing that keeps coming back to me, and I'll have more time to get into the roster and so forth. This is just the July take.

[Bill Simmons]

Six weeks.

[Joe House]

That was a career season out of Joe Burrow last year. They got the career season out of him. He was awesome. He was incredible all season long with those weapons, and I mean, he's capable of replicating it, but a lot of stuff went right for them on offense, and they still missed the playoffs. They still came up short because that offensive line subjects him to just too much abuse. And there are games where that offense underperforms. They tend to happen early in the season especially. But that defense was just an abomination, and I just haven't seen anything. Again, we'll get into the rosters, but I just wanted to make sure that my skepticism was baked into my portfolio early on.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, as you know, I. I love doing the player rankings every year, and I felt like it really helped me last year, and I spent even more time on them this year trying to. Trying to perfect my formula like a scientist. Cincinnati did not do great in the setup. You take out Burrow and Chase. I gave them a minus one for their offensive line. I only had five offensive lines where I was like, not only do you get a zero, I'm giving you a minus one. Higgins, you know, who hasn't been as healthy the last two years, but when he is healthy, he's great. And then Hendrickson, assuming he's coming back, and I think Chase Brown was good for them, and that's about it. That's their team, you know, and they went 9 and 8 last year, had some bad end of the game luck, but they're also pretty top heavy. Minnesota, you and I share the same concerns because this is my favorite week to really start looking at this. Like, on the positive side, Josh Simmons, who the Chiefs got at the end of the first round, left tackle, hurt his knee. Everyone was like, oh, shit. If they get. They can get him healthy in time for the season. This is like getting a top 10 pick, right? I was like, all right, I've heard that one before. I'm not going to trust that if that's cool. Well, guess what? He looks great in training camp. And now they went from like this offensive line. That was the biggest reason they lost in the Super Bowl. They had Joe Tunney playing outside as a guard at left tackle, and now they have Simmons. They spent some free agent money. They actually have too much, too many guys. They might have like a, like a decent guy, not even starting. But this Simmons, if he can be left tackle, kind of changes how I feel about the Chiefs. I don't know about you.

[Joe House]

Well, and, and you know, some of the smart folks that are doing some of the assessing of fortunes like this iteration of the Chiefs, better than last year. The team that went 15 and two mainly because it seems like they are able to be physical and it will be by virtue of what you're describing with, with Simmons physical on the offensive side, you know they're not. Kelsey will be a become a possession receiver. They have two vertical threats. You know, whenever the suspension is done.

[Bill Simmons]

With Rice, the receivers will be better. Hollywood Browns back. Right. Like they actually weirdly should be better. Except they're not going to go 11 and oh in the one score games again. But it's leading to something I want to talk about in a second. But let's do the Minnesota thing because that this is the opposite of the Josh Simmons piece. The couple days of McCarthy we've had and some of the quotes from the players already where it just feels like work in progress is maybe being generous. Yeah, it made me nervous, House.

[Joe House]

Well, with good reason. I mean this. I have a lot of admiration for the Minnesota organization and for them doing what they did last season, especially on the defensive side of the ball. They were at times dominant and they were able to play physical football and it led all the way up to that unbelievable week 17 game against Detroit. But Sam Darnold was incredible for them and he and o' Connell were in such harmony. There was a synergy there. We can use all of the stupid business words, but it just made so much sense. And you could see the team believing in Donald and that we had that.

[Bill Simmons]

Famous locker room video.

[Joe House]

Amazing.

[Bill Simmons]

They gave him the ball and they're just going fucking crazy and they're lifting them up.

[Joe House]

So I don't criticize them for not paying Darnold, but they lost something meaningful in my humble opinion. And we were supposed to believe that the one hour sessions, you know, some of the stories coming out with Minnesota.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, talk about. Tell that story.

[Joe House]

What was that story story about? You know, Okada made a point of ensuring no matter what in his schedule, he had an hour to sit down with McCarthy every single week of the NFL season. So they could.

[Bill Simmons]

Last year.

[Joe House]

Last year. Yes, yes. While. While McCarthy was injured so they could talk about, you know, things that were going on, what McCarthy was seeing and just, you know, that undivided attention between the quarterback and the head coach, the offensive mastermind. That's great. I'm glad they have a great relationship. Need to see that dude get on the football field and throw the rock more than 10 yards.

[Bill Simmons]

It's tough because there's two things going against him. The rookie quarterback piece. Actually, three. The rookie quarterback piece, the I'm coming off a major injury piece, and then the I haven't played football in two years piece. And he's young, so you have all these things working against you and I get it. They had to play it the way they had to play it because he's on a rookie contract. They made a big investment in him last year. It wouldn't have made sense to pay Darnold. I get it, but that doesn't mean I have to like Minnesota this year.

[Joe House]

The other thing that sucks is that other than the quarterback position, the most important position on the field, they're goddamn good on both sides of the ball. And there are a bunch of veterans on that football team with an expectation of high performance based on how they did last year. And if he comes in and sucks, like, you know, that's not an easy situation to navigate. So I just have a lot of skepticism.

[Bill Simmons]

I know I won't be betting on the over. The over right now, I guess it's eight and a half is minus 150 if you wanted to go over 10 and a half for them, plus 180. But we're also looking at, you know, the biggest drop offs in. In NFL history of teams just dropping six wins, seven wins. It's not a thing that happens very much, you know. So what was that record last year? 14 and three.

[Joe House]

Yeah. Yeah, it's 14.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. So you think like, all right, what are the biggest drop offs ever? Um, we've had some wins go up. I don't even have the list of the. The drop offs, but usually it's like six, seven wins is the max for going from point A to point B. So for them to go from 14 wins to eight wins, that's like almost historic.

[Joe House]

We had it like the San Francisco. There's always a team San Francisco last year backed up that much. Yeah, I mean there are.

[Bill Simmons]

Think about.

[Joe House]

There's a version.

[Bill Simmons]

All the shit that happened to them last year to make that happen. It was like the all time year from hell season starting with their fucking first round pick getting shot in downtown. That was it. When I saw that, I was like, oh, we started going under on all the San Francisco stuff. So I am a little skeptical of this team. Anyone else? Because I have a team that jumped out to me that I mentioned Nate Tice last week. Oh, I'm all ears. And it Ties into a bigger, a bigger thing I want to talk about.

[Joe House]

I'm all ears. You tell me.

[Bill Simmons]

I just really like this Broncos team.

[Joe House]

Okay, sure.

[Bill Simmons]

And I've looked at it from every way. I actually asked Fanduel and they said a lot of the action on the Broncos has been like, basically all positive, which makes me a little nervous for division, for the overs and. But when I did my rankings, I just. They just have a lot of good players all over the place. They have a top four offensive line. They got better in some subtle ways. They definitely got better on defense. They have a rookie running back that if they hit with him, with Harvey.

[Joe House]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Then that's going to be significant because their running backs were bad last year. They have Knicks in year two. The schedule is a little favorable in general for the AFC west. And, and I had them in my rankings. I had them like right. Hovering around where KC is for a number like, just for like, like player personnel. Yeah. I had them above the Chargers. I had them a little bit above the Rams. Like I had them when I laid everything out, they were higher than I thought. And. And when that happened last year, those teams were usually good.

[Joe House]

I think what's, what's got to be driving that is, is your defensive numbers. Right. Because that defense was already excellent. And then they added two very good players. Now we'll see what they have left in.

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't even have a fun. I didn't have a fungus as, as a chipper. I had six chips on their defense. Benito, Franklin, Myers, Allen, Greenlaw, Certain and Jones.

[Joe House]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Six of their 11 guys made the list and they're all like, legitimately, you have to put them in the top 15, top 17 range. So. And then Sean Payton, year two, they got a little taste last year, which I like. And I think with the afc, when you take out Baltimore and you take out Buffalo and you take out kc it's really it for. Oh no, I don't want to see that team.

[Joe House]

I agree.

[Bill Simmons]

You're right. So could they. Could they crack top three for the, for the over unders. For them that it's nine and a half is over. It's plus 110. The division odds, I think they're plus 330. And I just, I think those odds are going to move. I think that's going to be the team that I think. I think things are going to shift. Are you in or out on them?

[Joe House]

I'm in. And I like their defense quite a bit. I love the idea of building the way that they Built and what they surrounded Bo Nix with and Peyton getting his guy in Knicks. The aspect of that bet for them, would you say? Plus 330 to win the division? Yeah, that's just a. Patrick Mahomes gets hurt the bet. Do we do that?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, no. If, if Simmons wasn't going to be ready for the season on their line and, and I was worried about the Chiefs line again, I might have thought about it. But the only thing with the Chiefs, man, you, you look at their schedule and like, like what they did to them from a TV game standpoint and a night game standpoint, it's fucking bonkers. Hold on, I have it here. They have how many night games they. I have eight games that either at night on Christmas or in Europe. So they only, they only play. There's 17 games total. They only play nine normal Sunday games and then eight just completely wacky crazy. They start the season in Brazil. Week three, they're Sunday night, Week five, Monday night, week six, Sunday night, week eight, Monday night Thanksgiving, they play Sunday night Christmas and then the Raiders game for all we know could be a night game like that schedule, maybe nervous.

[Joe House]

Well, the same thing is true and I'm agreeing that there is, you know, we're going to see regression from the one score stuff and you know, even though we both think personnel wise they're right where they were last year. But you know, 12 wins is still plenty good. You describing all of those night games, all those island games, sadly Washington has the exact same. Very, very, very similar.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm aware. Let's talk about very similar. I was a little down on your Washington team. What's. You want to go half glass full or glass half empty?

[Joe House]

I'm. I'm only glass half full, so you should do the glass half empty.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, do the glass half full and I'll do the empty.

[Joe House]

That offense is better than last year. And yes, there will be regression in terms of their effectiveness on, on fourth down especially. They're not going to be 87% effective on converting fourth downs this upcoming season. But they still have that multiplicity and, and they, they will keep defenses on their heels. They're not going to change their philosophy or approach. And so overall, even though they won't be 20 of 23 on fourth down, they're going to play four down offensive football. And with the addition of Debo Samuel and the additions on the offensive line.

[Bill Simmons]

Now look, Debo Samuel, well, no, I.

[Joe House]

Mean he's just going to be put into the perfect role for him. That's all he's they're not going to, it's not like around him.

[Bill Simmons]

He's a, he's a, he needs shape yet.

[Joe House]

He needs the calories. He's going to be, you know, out there trying to earn another contract. Let that man eat. He's going to get his touches. I'm not worried. And take some of the pressure off of Austin Eckler.

[Bill Simmons]

Like is it touches of a bagel.

[Joe House]

It's a team of, of yards after contact and if some of that contact. Look, he needs to build up the fortitude to take that first hit. I don't have no issue whatsoever. Let that man eat. And in fact I'll take him around Washington D.C. and make sure that he's well fed.

[Bill Simmons]

Stay away from Joe House.

[Joe House]

Nah, he's, we're good. Me and D are on the same page. But I, I, I'm not worried about the offense. The, the, and I, you know it's hilarious with Tunsil led the league last year and, and accepted penalties from that position. But his, his, his blocking rates, you know, his, his grades are still very, very good. Um, the defense remains a work in progress and they lost, you know, some, some important guys there. So we'll see.

[Bill Simmons]

That schedule you mentioned, they had the same issue that Casey has. Eight games that are either net games or Euro games. Yep. And they're playing on Christmas too. So here's the other issue with them. I was ranking the divisions, which I can't wait for you to talk about for just who I think is going to be best division in each conference. And I think you can make a legitimate case that they're playing the two best divisions in each conference. They're playing the AFC west, they're playing the NFC North. Those are eight games where the worst teams you're going to play are either Minnesota or Chicago in the NFC north and probably Vegas in the AFC west, who I kind of like as at least being a little frisky with the new coach. So you have that they're playing a second place schedule which is Miami, the Chargers and Seattle. Two of those teams could be good and Miami seems like they lucked out with that one. But it's just, it's a murderer's row. And then you know, it's got to be mentioned the Jaden Daniels. Just the reason people were worried about him when he came into the league was he's skinny.

[Joe House]

True.

[Bill Simmons]

What kind of hits is he going to take? So those would be my concerns. House. From a player, from a talent standpoint, they did okay in my rankings. They were, you know, they were kind of. Kind of upper middle class.

[Joe House]

That's fine.

[Bill Simmons]

Believe me, they were right. I had them in the Minnesota, Pittsburgh, Washington range basically for.

[Joe House]

Oh, I see. For talent. Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

But a lot of it depends on how you rank Daniels and where you think he. Where you think he's going to be. So some of the bets that we. We were looking at and this sparked. We have a thread, me, you, Sal, and Hench that we've had for a long time that we named after J.T. thor, a guy who carried us on the last day of a season a couple years ago. What was that? The Charlotte over. What do we have? It was an incredible number. Whoever Charlotte, we had their under.

[Joe House]

It was a Cleveland under.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Joe House]

And they.

[Bill Simmons]

Charlotte to be Cleveland.

[Joe House]

They put J.T. thor was on Charlotte. And Cleveland deliberately decided to tank the last game of the season. I don't remember the circumstances why.

[Bill Simmons]

And Charlotte was trying to tank too. But JT Thor was like, I'm not tanking. I'm trying to impress people. And looked like Karl malone in the mid-90s. Anyway, so we always text bets, and we finally got excited about one, and it was +158 on FanDuel when we were texting about it. Now it has dropped to plus 145. The bet is New Orleans and Cleveland both to finish fourth in their divisions. I feel even better about it than I did a week ago. I love this bet. There's some people we could throw it in, but it's my favorite one. Right. Is this your favorite too?

[Joe House]

Yeah, so far. It's very simple. The other bet that I've made on the other side of it is Baltimore and Buffalo to win their respective divisions. That's +120 on the FanDuel sportsbook. So I like to have a positive bet to go along with our negative bet for karma.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, I just all go negative.

[Joe House]

Yeah, that's right.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't. I don't see any scenario where Cleveland makes. Makes the third place spot unless there's some sort of horrible injury to somebody. And even then, I don't know if.

[Joe House]

They seen the odds. I couldn't find them. I don't know if they're out yet. My favorite bet for Cleveland will be last team to get a win this NFL season.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh.

[Joe House]

Their schedule is excruciatingly tough at the outset, and there are some unbelievable betting opportunities.

[Bill Simmons]

Let's go through it for the audience. Cause I looked at this too, and I. And it was one of the reasons I sent you guys that last place. Text plus not to mention we have no idea who their quarterback was. Kenny Pickett's already hurt. Yeah. So their home Cincy at Baltimore. Home Green Bay at Dallas, play in Minnesota and London at Pittsburgh. Home Dolphins at Pats at Jets, Ravens at Raiders, Niners or the first 12, basically. So I guess the best chance would be Dolphins week seven.

[Joe House]

That's their first best chance. I agree.

[Bill Simmons]

Unless they upset somebody. But they'll be Bengals game. I haven't looked at the lines yet, but they'll be at least like +5 higher. There'll be +5 or higher in every game until that Miami game. So I don't see any case for Cleveland to not be in fourth place. And I don't even think they care. I think they're going to use this year to figure out they paid Miles Garrett.

[David Shoemaker]

He's.

[Bill Simmons]

Now. He can't say anything. He took the money. They don't really have a lot of talent anywhere and that's just the way it goes. But the New Orleans. New Orleans, even though that division's obviously worse, that was one of only. I only had two teams that I gave minus twos for their quarterbacks and it was New Orleans and Cleveland.

[Joe House]

Yeah. I mean, the thing that's a tiny bit scary with New Orleans is that their offensive line is not horrendous.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Joe House]

There are one.

[Bill Simmons]

One good thing.

[Joe House]

Offensive lines. And they do still have guys that, that, you know, you see some spectacular plays out of Chris Olave. Some spectacular. Alvin Camaro was like kind of a dog for as long as he could be healthy last season. Which, you know, he.

[Bill Simmons]

He's.

[Joe House]

He's in harm's way quite a bit, especially with their car.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, a lot of it, unfortunately. A lot of it has that concussion thing that I think he said four or five. I just, I hate it. It's hard to. Hard to pencil him in for an entire season anymore. New Orleans has, I would argue, the least amount of talent in either conference combined with this David Carr piece. Derek Carr, he's called him as well. That'll be the first of many mistakes in the podcast for me. Their car, whichever car. But having to. Whatever that salary cap, not being able to plan for a QB anyway, so. So we like that. Plus it's plus one 45. New Orleans, Cleveland. And then you can get a little frisky if you want. You can throw Tennessee in there for them to be in fourth place. That's. That was plus 493. Now it's plus 5, 20. Or you can go Cleveland, New Orleans, Miami. If you want to really go nuts. That's +7.24 house. If you think Miami can be the worst team in the AFC East. And I think they can.

[Joe House]

I want to tell you I have lost some of my enthusiasm for Tennessee as the worst team in the AFC south because when you go in and start looking at I honest I. I did this out loud on many of our shows. They were. They had all the hallmarks of a team that was point shaving except for they weren't. I mean I wasn't an allegation. They just were the point shaving Titans because their level of special teams play was historically bad and Will Levis was. I think our good pal Warren Sharp called him a double agent. No, nobody. He led the NFL in opposing touchdowns like letting other teams score. And he was, you know a. By however many measures you want to use the worst quarterback in the entire NFL. And so if you.

[Bill Simmons]

He was certainly the worst quarterback to gamble on last year.

[Joe House]

Well, they went 2 and 15 against the spread the first time they looked.

[Bill Simmons]

Confident and then he would become Will Levis and just pull. Yeah. So it was always better to be against Will levis.

[Joe House]

Yeah. Yeah. 2 and 15 against the spread. Another historical outcome. So here's. I mean it's not like a strong case for Tennessee. It's just they got rid of the worst quarterback in the league and replaced him with a rookie and the rookie is a great unknown. Who knows and they got a legit special teams coach on the team. So you know they.

[Bill Simmons]

Congratulations. But rookie QB offensive line might not be horrific. I didn't. They didn't get a minus one. They weren't a bottom five offensive line. Division's not good.

[Joe House]

Division's not good.

[Bill Simmons]

Another that would be.

[Joe House]

That's why I didn't like I'm. Oh let me plow into adding Tennessee to the parlay. The parlay that we absolutely. But we did though. But I mean it wasn't the same. It wasn't the same denomination.

[Bill Simmons]

We went less units.

[Joe House]

That's right.

[Bill Simmons]

Well there's a Cleveland, Cleveland, New Orleans, Miami, Tennessee all to finish fourth place is plus 18, 2018 and 1 odds. I think that's a pretty good long shot. You'll probably.

[Joe House]

And you could probably go against Miami is the jets are in that conference. How the Jets.

[Bill Simmons]

Jets have some talent.

[Joe House]

We said this last year.

[Bill Simmons]

I know, I know but they have a better coaching situation. My fear with the jets is or a positive fear is they might actually have an identity. I don't know if I Like the identity. I don't know if it's identity that will win 10 games, but you know, with Fields and they have a better than average offensive line, right?

[Joe House]

They do.

[Bill Simmons]

And maybe they're just going to be a pound the ball, multiple running backs, hard to play a lot of like 16 to 13 type games and I could kind of see what they might be. All right. Right. They have enough, enough chippers on defense. Maybe. I don't see it with Miami at all. I don't understand what that team is and that the first coach fired stuff hasn't come out yet. But I think McDaniel has to be lingering for that one, right?

[Joe House]

Sure. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He's.

[Joe House]

He's going to be in the top three for sure.

[Bill Simmons]

Most shocking one on that list could be Mike Tomlin.

[Joe House]

I just don't see it.

[Bill Simmons]

I know. I just don't see it. Who else would you have on the, on the first coach fired list?

[Joe House]

I don't know. All of the eligible candidates got fired all over the.

[Bill Simmons]

We have. So we have so many new coaches.

[Jacko]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

I guess like Zach Taylor would have to be mentioned if, since he went out slow again.

[Joe House]

He'll, he'll, he'll be there.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, Day ball may be at the Giants.

[Joe House]

He'll be number one.

[Bill Simmons]

Horrific.

[Joe House]

Don't you think? He'll be number. Or did he get another, you know, year's worth of dispensation?

[Bill Simmons]

I would have McDaniel first.

[Joe House]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. But that, that's just me. So Speaking of divisions. So I was trying to figure out we did this. Sal and I did this when we did the over under pod. So I'll have a final answer on this. But if you go most wins by division and you go least wins by division, it's a good way to think of it because last year one of the things that helped me with my futures was I went all in on divisions or I was all out on divisions. We had the most wins by a division last year was the NFC north had 45 wins. The year before the AFC north had 43 and the year before that the NFC east had 43. Those are our top three. 43, 43, 45. So we know the best division in the 17 game schedule is going to be in the 43 to 45 range, which is a lot of wins. You need one really good team, another really good team, and then the other ones are probably around nine to 10 wins. Who is that this year? House. Who would be your best bet? Because I'm going to have FanDuel do some some division things for us, like win totals for divisions, divisions against each other. I have a pick. Who. Who's your. Who's your most reliable division this year?

[Joe House]

For me, it's the AFC West. I think that they're really kind of built for it. They. They have the best coaches in the entire NFL, in my humble opinion. Now with Pete Carroll, I mean, you could say whatever you want, make fun of Pete for the last couple years in, but the culture will change and they have talent and they're headed in the right direction. What we saw out of. Out of Peyton and Harbaugh and the way that they immediately arrived, it immediately kicked those teams into gear. And then the Chiefs are just the Chiefs. And so, you know, you can get. I see like a 38 to 42 win sort of possibility for those four teams and I can't get there with any of the other divisions.

[Bill Simmons]

So the over unders right now, Casey's 11 and a half, Denver's nine and a half, Chargers nine and a half, Vegas seven and a half. So if you add those up, we're at 38.

[Joe House]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And if we're going over, if you think that division's actually going to overachieve, that puts us in that range. Here's the fun wrinkle. That division plays the AFC south and the NFC East. So you have the AFC south, which I do not think is going to be good. In the NFC east, which, other than Philly, if your team goes backwards, if Dallas stays in the middle and then the Giants are bad, it's just probably the best. The best outcome would be south and South. But the, the next best outcome, I think is is this. So I'm with you, House.

[Joe House]

You're agreeing with me. Okay, I am.

[Bill Simmons]

That was the one I had. That was the one I had as well. The AFC West. I think there's an interesting Vegas case where it's basically just QB coach, which we've seen. You saw it last year on your team.

[Joe House]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Change qb, bring in a competent one. Change the coach, bring in a competent one. That's usually worth five wins. It just is. And that team was. I think that record was even a little better than we thought it was going to be last year. But I don't know. Could they go 9 and 8? Sure.

[Joe House]

Sure. The Christian Wilkins thing, I didn't love.

[Bill Simmons]

The Christian Wilkins thing, didn't love that. That was. That was, I thought, a red flag, but then you flip it the other way. Who's going to be the worst? All right, what are the numbers for that Last year, worst Division, AFC South, 25. We thought it was going to be the NFC south, and we did. We had special fanduel bets. We went under, I think 29 and a half. It actually did hit, but it. It was a little closer and a little hair than we thought because Tampa turned out to be pretty good. But anyway, last year, AFC South 25, year before NFC South 27, year before that, AFC South 23. So let's call it somewhere between 23 and 20. 27 will be our range. And the two candidates are the two south divisions. So we have the AFC south, they're playing the AFC west and the NFC West. So that's at least eight of the games, plus each other. NFC south is playing the AFC east and the NFC West. So slight advantage to the AFC South. AFC south has Houston nine and a half, Indy seven and a half, Jacksonville seven, half Tennessee five and a half. NFC south has Tampa Bay at nine and a half wins, Atlanta seven, half, Carolina six and a half, New Orleans five and a half. So they're one win less. NFC south is at 12, 29. AFC south is at AFC south is at 30. For just. If you take the FanDuel outs together.

[Jacko]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And yet, House, I think I like the AFC south to be the worst division. What do you have?

[Joe House]

I agree with you.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, I thought you were going to have NFC South. I was ready for that.

[Joe House]

I'm not. And the reason I don't is because I think that Tampa will be good again, but I think that there is. Speaking of double agents, speaking of saboteurs, going back and looking at what Kirk Cousins did to that Atlanta Falcons team, it's astonishing they have a cause of action against that. Man. They were. They were six and three. And that. That offense was. Was very good until it got to the red zone. He led the. The Falcons led the league in turnovers in the second half of close games. You know, like games where they were sort of within one score. And Kirk Cousins had seven picks before he got benched in the second half of close games and finished his, some might say career with one touchdown and nine interceptions before they finally benched him for Michael Penix. I mean, they were. They. That was a legit playoff team, talent wise. Now, look, Atlanta had plenty of challenges. They had no pass rush. They tried to address that this offseason, but I think the ceiling for Atlanta is. Is high. And I, you know, got to look at some.

[Bill Simmons]

Higher. I would say higher. Higher.

[Joe House]

Yes. Yes. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So go ahead. I had that as well, because I actually like Tampa this year. Like when I did my at least this first pass of the rankings, I was surprised by how high Tampa was, including the fact that they have one of the best four lines in the league. They brought back continuity and offense, except for the coaches and. And it looks like they're in a pretty easy division. I don't feel as good about Houston as I do about Tampa. So even if you're looking at those two teams versus each other, I just have more questions and concerns with with Houston than I do at Tampa. I think Tampa's going to be good.

[Joe House]

They are good. They had to address their secondary. They were a bottom three defense in terms of yards per game and overall total passing yards. They just give up a s ton. They gave up a lot of career games to opposing quarterbacks. So they have to, you know, have some improvement there. And it is once again a new offensive coordinator for Baker. But it doesn't seem to matter. You know, he. He just gets cooking and it's a guy that was already. Already there, so it seems like it'll be fine. The talent is good, the offensive line is good. So I like Tampa easier when you.

[Bill Simmons]

Have everybody back and you have the same system and all that stuff.

[Joe House]

Only thing with Tampa is Tristan Worf's is hurt and out for a little bit. Looks like he might not be there for the beginning of the season. He's a pretty important offensive lineman, so that might be like, you know, you mark him down a game kind of thing.

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't love that piece. Yeah, But Houston just lost Joe Mixon for God knows how long, you know, so, you know, I'm just a little more worried about them. So we're going to tell Fanduel we're going to try to do an AFC south versus NFC south, some sort of head that. They're going to put a couple of futures up on Fanduel that House and I are going to approve and we'll try to figure out before we go. New Orleans, Tennessee, Cleveland, Miami. All to miss the playoffs, plus 109.

[Joe House]

Good. Let's do that. Plus money we like. Plus money.

[Bill Simmons]

Saints, Titans, Browns, Dolphins. I just don't see any of those teams making the playoffs. Miami would be the threatening one.

[Joe House]

That's who messes it up for us.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, like if the Pats are worse than people think. If the jets are worse than people think and they somehow go nine and eight and get a seven seed. On the flip side, Baltimore, Kansas City, Philadelphia. Yes, they all make the playoffs. 14 teams in the playoffs, plus one.

[Joe House]

On one that's another one. That's money.

[Bill Simmons]

Who messes it up?

[Joe House]

We like those. Philadelphia. I. I mean, I can't. I have to admit, I don't know how to make the case.

[Bill Simmons]

I. I don't know who messes that up. Even odds. Let's do that as well.

[Joe House]

I mean, I would say Philadelphia on the theory that, first of all, I hate Philadelphia because they beat the hell. But that's no the reason. Here's the thing. If you want to make a case to fade them a tiny bit, it is that they have, you know, significant turnover personnel wise on defense and it takes a little a minute to get that Fangio Defense. That's a. That's the best I could do. That's the best I can do.

[Bill Simmons]

We're gonna take a break and we're gonna bring in our buddy Jacko.

[Joe House]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. As a small business owner, you don't have the luxury of clocking out early. Your business is on your mind 24 7. So when you're hiring, you need a partner that works just as hard as you do. That hiring partner is LinkedIn Jobs. When you clock out, LinkedIn clocks in. LinkedIn's new feature can help you write job descriptions and then quickly get your job in front of the right people with deep candidate insights. Nice. At the end of the day, the most important thing to your small business is the quality of candidates. And with LinkedIn, you can feel confident you're getting the best. You can even add a hashtag hiring frame to your profile picture and get two times more qualified candidates. Post your job for [e-mail] Simmons terms and conditions apply. And now it's time for Rookie Radar, a new segment from Yahoo. Fantasy. The best place to play fantasy football this season. It's where we're going to be doing our big ringer fantasy football draft at the end of August. Starting August 4th, Yahoo Fantasy is dropping 28 big new features over 28 days, giving you more ways to play and draft and win. And whether you're building a dynasty or hunting for that late round jam, it pays to keep an eye on the next generation of stars. Obviously, Genti on Vegas is going to be a crazy good running back and we'll see how high he goes in the rankings. I still like Hampton on the Chargers to get a lot of touchdowns. I think he's going to be good right away. My sleeper would be RJ Harvey on Denver because Denver has top four offensive line and I just think, I think he's Immediately going to put up points. And then the other one I really like is Tyler Warren in Indianapolis because I think he's as a tight end, I think he's just going to come in and be really good right away. So we'll see. We'll see if there can be more names on that list. Stay tuned and get started by creating or joining a Yahoo fantasy football league [e-mail] Simmons. All right, House is still here. A very special tree for us. My buddy Jacko. It's been a while. We were all together how many years ago? That may now be 37 years ago. Incredible. You know, I was talking to somebody. Buddy of mine was sending his, his son off to college and we were talking. He had like some two day orientation that they went to at the University of Oregon where they got to meet everyone. They're going to be in the hall. You flew in, you flew back. And I ended up telling him Jacko's story about how he was introduced to his roommate, our friend Nikaeda. And I feel like you could just tell that right now what happened. So we would get at Holy Cross, they would send us the name of who you're rooming with and a phone number and that was it.

[Jacko]

Right? And an address, I think. So I learned that Nikaida, who is not actually Japanese, although it sounds like it should be a Japanese name. So I'm like, holy cross is like 90% Irish and I'm gonna have the one Japanese roommate at Holy Cross, which is fine, but I'm just like, this will be unique. So I called Nikaida and just to tell you what a simpler time it was, there was no social media of any kind. There was no Twitter, Facebook, you couldn't. Or Snapchat, whatever the kids use these days. So you couldn't see anybody ahead of time. So you would just cold call this person and you were encouraged to talk ahead of time. And meanwhile, my parents. And to tell you what a different time this was, my parents had bought me a fridge and a hard landline phone, which was a big deal at the time. So I call Nick Aida and I'm listing off all these things that I have for our room and I'm like, I have a fridge and my parents have a phone for our room. And we're good with this and we're good with that. And he was kind of grasping at straws to see what he could bring. And he's like, I've got a bunch of hangers. And I'm like, hangers I'm like, does he think my shirts are just on the floor right now? Like, oh, thank God, I'll finally have a place. I'll finally have something to do with my shirts and coats. Because I was wondering what I was gonna do about that. So I felt bad for him. So we told that story in college, and of course, Nick and I are fast friends now, but. And then, like, Holy Cross Alumni magazine a couple years ago had a thing about going off to school, and it had all the things you need. And one of them was, like, a big package of hangers. And I'm like, aida was ahead of the time.

[Bill Simmons]

Who KNEW he was 30 years ahead of the curve? And now you have a fantasy football team of them called the Wire Hangers.

[Jacko]

Exactly. So it's lived on. It's lived on. Although you had a similar story, because I remember when you called your freshman year roommate and he was like, I have to call you back. I'm entertaining some guests. And you had a vision, like, he was circulating, like a tray with Cheetos on it or something, like, to all of his friends. Such an awkward thing. So awkward. My daughter started college last year, and now they encourage you to, like, go on, you know, social media and try to find a roommate ahead of time, which I don't particularly care for, because if you get rejected, like, you start off behind the eight ball, like, there's already people you dislike or dislike you by the time you set foot on campus. You know, I don't care for that. But, I mean, it worked out for her. She's going back sophomore year with the same roommate, so it's all good.

[Bill Simmons]

Who knew college? Who knew college roommates was like Tinder, like, swipe left. Did you know this house?

[Joe House]

It would have made sense, though, because I will say from my own experience, I got paired up with a very nice guy from, like, central Massachusetts. And I was describing to him my interests and stuff. And I would, like, really into the Washington, D.C. music scene, you know, the punk scene here. And I was describing, you know, all the. The, you know, how I spent my time that way. And he tried to connect. Like he was, you know, we were on the phone how he's like, well, my high school had Punk Day, which we get dressed up. It's like, okay, that's a, you know, different kind of thing than what I'm talking about. But, you know, house was like, every.

[Jacko]

Day is punk day for me.

[Bill Simmons]

That's Tuesday for me.

[Joe House]

That's right. The day that ends. And why we were roommates for one year.

[Jacko]

There you go.

[Bill Simmons]

Then you had the great Jeff Mazur. Yeah. All right. There's a lot of things we're going to try to do with the three of us. We're going to start here, Jack. Oh.

[Jacko]

All right.

[Bill Simmons]

Yankees have not won a World Series. There are kids now turning 21 who are legally able to drink, who don't remember really what it was like when the Yankees won the World Series. They could say they did because they were like, four or five. You absolutely detest their gm. You absolutely detest their coach, and you fly off the handle anytime something goes wrong. So now Aaron Judge, who's been Superman, and now he's hurt. It seemed like there was some Tommy John stuff potentially, but they're saying he's fine, at least for a little bit.

[Jacko]

He averted disaster there. Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Just walk us through your emotions as we head into August.

[Jacko]

Well, I mean, you could just play any podcast I've appeared on since 2018, and it's the same story. Like, literally, like, there's no updates. It's the darkest time in my Yankee fandom history. I am 55 years young, so I've been a fan cognizantly of the Yankees since about 1977, when I was 7 years old. And there's just no hope. Like, yes, you say I fly off the handle. That's true. I can't help but react to some things that occur, but I'm like, why are you doing this? What's the point? Nothing's gonna change. It's like yelling at the weather. What's it doing for me? It's not doing any good. The owner doesn't care. We could reenact all this again. The owner doesn't because he gets 40,000 people a night ordering chicken buckets and beers and sodas, and he makes a fortune, so he owns his own TV network. He doesn't care. The GM has a job for life. He's been there. I did a thing a while ago. He's on the third pope, the second British monarch, and the sixth president. It's the biggest job security on Earth. Literally. He's been there longer than the Pope and, like the King of England. It's ridiculous. And he's never, ever gonna get fired because he's Hal's buddy. They're like brothers. So it'd be like, I would think, like, if you put me in charge of the ringer content. Right? And I'm like, you're like, john, I don't think we need the 50th Harford Wailers or Pogues podcast. I think, like, 49 was probably enough. You'd be like, I love you, but we gotta make some changes here. Like, it's not working out. Hal Steinbrenner's like, nope, it's all good. It's great. I love it. And you have Aaron Boone, who is not fit to lead a pet store, let alone a major league baseball team, and the New York Yankees, you know, a multi billion dollar franchise. The whole thing's a disgrace, but, like, it doesn't change. And yeah, like, they have. And last year I was going to console myself and say, well, you know, they haven't even been to a world series since 2009, which they won and they went to one. And I'm like, all right, I'll give them a pass. But then they lose the World Series in the most embarrassing, mortifying fashion in the history. One of the worst performances in the history of baseball. Like that fifth inning in Game 5. I will still have nightmares about that on my deathbed. It's so bad and so horrendous. So you can't even give them a break on that because they got through a very weak American League to win a pennant. And okay, a pennant's still a pennant, but you can't mortifyingly embarrass yourself in your first world series in 16 years. You just can't. And then they're like, well, we're going to come back stronger. We're going to be better defensively. And they got worse. Like, you can't make it up. They got worse. And they all have this fake swagger that they get from special advisor to the owner Nick Swisher, who is the king of fake swagger, and he runs the organization with Cashmen. And they're like, well, the league's caught up to us and we're still the best team in the league. Based on what? When Aaron Boone says these things at press conferences, I just want one media member to say, you have all this confidence. What is that based on? Like, what is it based on? That this team is going to rebound and it's all right in front of them and you're going to turn the corner. Based on what? It's delusional. Like, it is delusional. It's like me saying I'm going to win the decathlon in the next Olympics. What is that based on? Oh, no, I'm going to do it. Don't worry about that. Based on what? There is no track record or history to say that you were going to do anything. And the media is just like, oh, okay, they're going to do it. It's all right in front of them and writes it down. Oh, the whole thing is just disgraceful. Disgraceful.

[Bill Simmons]

Wow, House, you thought you had it bad with your baseball team.

[Joe House]

I do have it bad with my baseball team. The Yankees were in the effing World Series last year. Yes, yes. It wasn't bad, but they were in the World Series. That is. It's very good. It's a very. They won the pennant. That's very good.

[Jacko]

House. Does a lot of people Yankee, like, younger, and I'm not killing House, I love House. But a lot of, like, younger Yankees. Twitters, like, oh, they've been in the playoffs 20 years out of the past 22, and they went to the World Series. Listen, that's great. If you're the Kansas City Royals, that's fantastic. You could hang up the banner like the 2014 Colts with the AFC finalist banner. Go ahead and hang that. That's great. If you're the New York Yankees, you are the creme de la creme of North American sports franchises. Making the playoffs is not enough. And normally I would give you. I would say cut them some slack and say, winning a pennant is good. We'll take that. But not when you lose in the way that they did. You just can't lose like that. I went to bed that night after the game, and my wife had gone to bed before me, and she said I was sighing so heavily, she thought someone died. I worked with a woman who's part of you died. I worked with a woman whose husband is a big Yankee fan. And I went to work the next day, and I said, how did your husband take last night's loss? And she goes, well, I went to bed early, and when I woke up this morning, there was a bottle of scotch that was empty on the table. And I'm like, yeah, that's about right. That's exactly. Tell me. Well, we went to the World Series. It was great. When my wife thinks somebody died, and another woman I know, her husband drinks a bottle of scotch to console himself after that, like, you can't be like, well, we still got that pendant to root for.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, and then Cole gets hurt. Now Judge is hurt. And then you have. This is something you and our buddy John Jemsky has. Have been on it forever. This. It's basically Yankee prospect porn, where they just tout these prospects that are coming up so that they don't spend money on other people because they have the next Lou Gehrig's coming up, right? The next Derek Jeter is coming up. And they did this with Bullpay especially, where they were like, this guy is so special, you're not going to believe it. And now it's turned on him to the point that I actually feel bad for him as a Red Sox fan. Like, I feel bad for him and his family. And I hate the Yankees. Like, I hate them almost the most, other than maybe the Lakers, but that's how badly it's gone. Why did they do this with their prospects?

[Jacko]

Well, because Hal doesn't want to spend money, and they have to justify it some way. So he didn't want to spend money on, like, Trey Turner and Corey Seeger, and even before Volpe was a thing, he didn't want to spend money on Manny Machado. And they never went out and got Bryce Harper. And then they're like, there's like a joke about, you know, on Twitter or elsewhere where somebody's like, I want McDonald's. And I think it's like an old Eddie Murphy joke. Like, we have McDonald's at home. So the Yankees are like, we don't need, like, an all star shortstop. We have one at home just waiting. Anthony Volpe. And they overhyped him, and he's Italian, so they could play that up. Because the Yankees have a history of great Italian players in New York, largely Italian Yankee fans. DiMaggio and Lazzari, the whole Rizzuto, the whole nine yards. And he grew up a Yankee fan. He grew up in New York. So they're like, oh, this kid, he's gonna be great. He's awesome. And they put too much pressure on the kid, and he stinks. Like, it's his third year, and he stinks. And people got all excited because he had a halfway decent postseason last year, but that was like, a very small sample size, and it turned out to be a fluke. And he stinks, and he can't hit, but he makes up for not hitting by not being able to field either. So it's like, what is he doing? And the Yankees always do this where, you know, Clint Frazier was going to be the next great thing, and Greg Bird was going to be the next great thing, and Gary Sanchez was going to be Johnny Bench. And they do it because Hal doesn't want to spend money, and he's enamored of the Tampa Bay Rays business model of doing it, paying 75 cents for a roster, and it doesn't work. And I guess it could work if you had a GM who knew what he was doing. But the GM has been there too long, and everybody in the system has been there too long and they don't know what they're doing, and they've shown that clearly. But so Volpe, I almost feel bad for him myself because he can't help that he just stinks. And fans put too much in him because they're like, well, I guess if we're not going to get a competent major league shortstop, All Star Anthony Volpe will be that on the cheap and we'll love it. And he's our homegrown guy and prospects and yay. And I read about him in baseball Prospectus and all that. It's horrible. Everything's horrible.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, at least Torres didn't go to the Tigers and lead off the All Star Game, right?

[Jacko]

I mean, that's a great point. When they traded Chapman for Torres and Torres was the number one prospect in baseball and they made another trade where they got Clint Frazier, and he was supposedly like one of the top 10 prospects in baseball, and the Yankees destroyed both of them. Now, Gleyber was okay as a Yankee, but he never lived up to the top prospect in baseball billing. They couldn't get him to run to first base on a consistent basis, and they coddled him and they never got the best out of him because Aaron Boone is like your big brother, like, managing the team and he's not an authority figure and he lets him get away with murder and he covers for everybody. And you ended up with like, you know, I had a thing the other day and a guy corrected me because I said, they haven't. They developed Aaron Judge, who's a, you know, generational player who they weren't even that high on as a prospect. And they lucked out with him. They were higher on Greg Bird and Sanchez and Volpe at later on than they ever were with Judge. And they lucked out him. But who else have they developed? And a guy said, well, Luis Heel won the Rookie of the Year last year. Okay, He's a pitcher. And I think it was probably a weak field and he's been hurt all year, so I forgot about him. But before that, like, who's the prospect that this wonderful analytics department of Brian Cashman has developed? You can't go back and find anybody that they've developed in their own system except for Judge. And I'll give you Heel, who won Rookie of the Year. But, like, they washed out on Torres, by and large, they washed out on Frazier, et cetera.

[Bill Simmons]

You got Schlitler.

[Jacko]

They have this kid Spencer Jones in the minors and they're probably going to trade them for like a backup third baseman because they don't have or a relief pitcher. That's going to be brutal. So yeah, they get this. I like Schlitler because he, or whatever you say his name because he throws 100 miles an hour and you know, they need more of that. He threw like the first game he pitched. He had the six fastest pitches for the Yankees all year, which tells you something else. So I like him. But like, you know, pitchers, who knows if they're going to work out. He looks good in small sample, but who knows? Who knows?

[Joe House]

This is a good faith question, I promise.

[Jacko]

Oh boy.

[Joe House]

How different, how different do you think the season would be if Juan Soto was still on the team? Because I, I will tell you that I think that they did make a legit effort to sign Soto.

[Jacko]

I mean, I think they did too. But I think Steve Cohen was never going to be outbid and if he went to a billion, Steve Cohen was going to go to a billion and $1. And it's very clear when Soto was complaining about losing out on $100,000 bonus for not making the World Series that, I mean for not making the all star team, that he was always going to go to the highest bidder. That was. So yeah, I do think they made a good faith effort to get him. And I would say like on paper, they getting Bellinger, Cody Bellinger who's been good, and getting Max Freed as like the backup plan were two good things. And I think Soto certainly had the capability of masking some of their offensive troubles because they, they haven't been able to get a clutch hit in about 10 years and it's all like basically home run or nothing for the most part. Although their offensive stats this year are good, but that's a little phony because it's from a couple big games. They don't have any level of consistency and they don't believe in clutch and they. I don't know what they teach in the minor leagues, but it's not defense or like any kind of competent hitting. I don't think they teach anything. I think Nick Swisher takes them out to dinner and tells you how to do a home run trot or something.

[Bill Simmons]

But wow, Johnny's more down on the Yankees than I am on the Red Sox. I actually had a big comeback season with the Red Sox and I've had a lot of the season.

[Jacko]

You traded Devers and then you got better. It was the Ewing theory It was the biggest Ewing theory of all time.

[Bill Simmons]

It turns out when you trade your overweight superstar guy who won't help the team by playing first base and didn't seem like he was very happy and felt betrayed by everybody, maybe it was a good thing to have him move on, apparently.

[Jacko]

And he proved them right because he went to the Giants and Will Clark's like, hey, I'd love to meet with you and work on first base. And he was like, nah, I'm good. No, thanks.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he played. He played there eventually. Last week. The problem is the Red Sox sold it to the fans as like, no, no. And then we're going to use the Devers money. We'll spend it on. And we're. We're still waiting.

[Joe House]

Yeah, exactly.

[Bill Simmons]

But we have these young prospects that are actually, you know, pretty special. Like this Roman Anthony thing is this is. This is like appointment viewing. This is a rare case of the prospect that they might have actually. Yeah. They might have actually not been full of shit. He's pretty great, even. Where's my old. The Fred Lynn Number 19, which brings joy to my heart.

[Jacko]

Gave him Fred Lynn's number. Really? I didn't wear.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. He's not aware of what. You deal with Bryce Harper when you're watching him. What about Bryce, like, right away, when you. When they had Bryce Harper, like, right away, right?

[Joe House]

Yes. Immediately. Amazing. Immediately. Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

But thank God that's what this Roman Anthony thing's like. It's like he's just clearly has it.

[Joe House]

We've had a wealth of those kinds of things come through Washington, Juan Sot.

[Jacko]

So.

[Joe House]

And now James Wood, who is an absolute goddamn stud. Six foot seven, runs the bases. So fleet of foot. But the organization is speaking of abominations, you know, in this holding pattern because the family that owns them can't figure out how to sell it, you know, for.

[Bill Simmons]

For.

[Joe House]

For Max Price. So they. Speaking of teams that won't spend any money, I mean, I'm not hard.

[Bill Simmons]

Is it. To sell a baseball team.

[Joe House]

It's really. It's very peculiar to me.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I have a question for both of you, because you each hate this team for different reasons, but does it. Does it annoy you that the Mets kind of have their mojo back? Jacko, do you care about the Mets at all as a Yankee fan, or are you just American League?

[Jacko]

I never really used to care. I never used to care about the Mets. It was like the Don Draper I don't think about you at all thing. But then I kind of got my backup A couple years ago, there was, like, a Mets, Red Sox game on espn, and everybody was joyously chanting, Yankees suck at the same time. And I got kind of mad about the Mets.

[Bill Simmons]

You're like, what?

[Jacko]

I was like, what? I got my back. Mets. Who the fuck are you? The Mets. Shut up. You know, so I got my back up a little bit. So, yeah, I mean, there's always a thing about, you know, who's going to be the dominant team in New York, to the extent anybody pays attention to that, like, who's the big kid on the block? And when they got Soto, you know, they talked a lot of trash, and it was like, all right, the Yankees are in a rough patch, rough decade. But let's not. Let's not go nuts about who the big boy in town is, you know, so the Mets are cute, you know, like, let them have their cute little fun. But you give it in the cute.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, I love it. It's dismissive. Jacko is one of my favorite jackos. If you had Steve Cohen as the Yankees owner, though, you'd be delighted.

[Jacko]

I would be in love.

[Joe House]

Yeah, you would be in love.

[Bill Simmons]

You would love it, too, House.

[Joe House]

I would, of course. I mean. You're kidding me. I don't care about the Mets either. The Phil. I care much more about the Phillies and honestly, the Cardinals. Because the Cardinals beat the Nationals a bunch of times in the playoffs. I like them less.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I feel really good about not only the Red Sox, but baseball. I don't want to say I gave up on baseball, but I definitely took a pretty long hiatus, partly from Mookie Bets, partly for how long, the games. We won the four titles. But I really did kind of deep down miss it and getting back into it, especially when Tatum got hurt and just kind of all of a sudden, it kind. They kind of slid into a void in a lot of different ways. But I think the biggest thing that I've loved, and we've talked about it last year, too, is just how much faster the games move and how much more enjoyable it is day to day. To be like, oh, it's the sixth inning, and you just have it in your. In your head. You're like, oh, this would be another 45 to 50 minutes. I can actually stay and watch the end of this versus wherever we were before, where just, like, time stopped. You had no idea how long anything was going to be. The pitch clock is the greatest thing. Like, hey, are we going to watch that show? To be like, I don't. This game might be another three hours. I don't know. Their innovation with that, I think is one of the most important things anyone did this century. Like, baseball to me is like pretty entertaining again. And I can't believe they fixed it. Jacko.

[Jacko]

Well, especially you and I, veterans of the Yankee Red Sox wars where a game would start at 7 o' clock and go until 12:30 in the morning because guys are stepping out of the box and they're adjusting their gloves and they're shaking dirt off their spikes and there's a million pitching changes in the whole nine yards. So it was like, I got to go to work tomorrow. Can we please end this one way or another? It was like a marathon. It was ridiculous. So the pitch count is fantastic. Such a smart innovation. And to speed things up, which was. I was always, you know, I'm an old school conservative guy, so I'm like, what are we making these changes for? But I'm like, oh, that was actually good. Good stuff. Good job, man.

[Joe House]

FRED I will tell you, my kid, my kid. This is how we're is. He turns 15 this upcoming week. We're going up to New York to kind of celebrate.

[David Shoemaker]

Good.

[Joe House]

Go to. And I said, here's all the stuff we can do. The Yankees unfortunately are not in town when we're going to be in town, but the Mets are in town. He's like, f, yes, I'll go to a Mets game. I definitely want to go. Because he knows that he's not going to be held hostage for hours and hours and hours. And, and he does get to see Juan Soto, who is his favorite player when he's in Washington. But yeah, we're going to go to. He's like, yeah, I want to go see a Met the Mets game.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, my son's the same way. He's been watching more this year, but a big piece of it for him was the mlb, the video game. My video for my apparently is fantastic this year and it's gotten him really into some of the players. And then, you know, they also. I can't believe they figured this out either, but they. The All Star Game was pretty fun to watch this year and I thought the, the home runoff with Schwarber was. Was awesome. Like I, I watched the entire game. I can't. I don't remember the last time I've watched the All Star Game start to finish basically. And I thought the home runoff was good. Baseball making a comeback. Jacko in, in every aspect except for the Yankees, who are the. Yeah, basically the early 90s Yankees again.

[Jacko]

I wish enjoy it. Yeah. That's great. Good stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

Are you nervous about the Red Sox at all? We're kind of breathing down your necks a little today.

[Jacko]

Part of I saw that part of me is I really am at the point where I want them at this point to lose as much as possible. And I know nothing is going to change, but I just want them to wear the embarrassment like I know Boone will never leave. Cashman is never, ever going to leave. It's not going to make any difference to Steinbrenner because 40,000 people will go. It's just like a place to go and see and be seen and enjoy the experience. So nothing will change, but I would like them to have the embarrassment just attached to them like a scarlet red letter.

[Bill Simmons]

House, can you believe what you're hearing? House, he's now spite rooting against the Yankees for the sake of a greater purpose.

[Joe House]

I understand it's a sacrifice and I admire it as a sports fan.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, House does it with the Wizards every year as he roots for a good draft pick. Let's take a break and I want to talk about golf and true crime with you guys. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. During the season, every baseball team plays 162 games. It's a true test of endurance. It's not enough to have a hot month or two. You need sustained dominance throughout. Well, the same is true for your small business. It's not enough to have a great Q2, even a great year. You want year over year growth that starts with better hires that'll be there for the long haul. To find Those hires, use LinkedIn. LinkedIn has strong hiring data and insights that you won't find anywhere else to help pair you with the best candidates. From unique skills and interests to the connections you have in common. Based on LinkedIn data, 72% of small businesses say that LinkedIn helps them find high quality talent. LinkedIn also lets you go beyond people who are actively applying. In a given week, 171 million LinkedIn members aren't actively seeking jobs, but they are open to new opportunities. That's a big pool to miss out on. If you're not hiring with LinkedIn. Find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com Simmons that's LinkedIn.com Simmons to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by mtv. Everything you know about the challenge is about to change. To win it all, iconic challenge vets will have to work with an elite set of new threats. Will they be able to forge a new challenge legacy as a team? Or will the new threats turn on the vets and take them down? America's longest running great sports franchise is back. The challenge vets and new threats. New season premieres Wednesday at 8, 7 Central on MTV. This episode is brought to you by Yahoo. Fantasy Fantasy football is back. Fire up the group chat, get those draft boards ready and buckle up for a season filled with breakouts, busts, overreactions and more. It's all happening with Yahoo. Fantasy this year I'm playing on Yahoo. Fantasy and you should too. We're doing a big, big, big ringer draft at the end of August. It is head to head bragging rights. There's going to be a little 10th place team gets some sort of fun punishment. We are going all out yahoo. Fantasy dropping 28 big new features over 28 days, giving you more ways to play, drafted, win and you can be like us. It all begins August 4th. Stay tuned and get started by creating or joining at Yahoo. Fantasy football league [e-mail] Simmons all right, so I was going to do this with House last week and I forgot. And now Jack o'. Sara. And I know, even though I didn't prep Jacko at all for this Scotty Scheffler, who crushed the British Open a week ago and is, I think unequivocally now the best golfer since Tiger Woods. But he's boring, Jacko.

[Jacko]

He is.

[Bill Simmons]

It's not his fault. No, yeah, I know. You're, you're the typical. You're a casual golf fan. You will come in for the majors.

[Jacko]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

And it's fun to watch somebody be really good. But something's missing with Scotty Scheffler and I, I want to dive into this because it's not his fault. I feel bad even talking about it. Sometimes you just don't have it. But do you? You. I just wanted to make sure you agree with the premise. Like, oh, it's probably not fixable from a personality standpoint.

[Jacko]

100%. Maybe they could bring in Nick Swisher to coach him on swagger. Like, I don't know, maybe, maybe Nick Swisher could leave the Yankees alone and go join the Scottie Scheffler team and give him a little swagger and he could like fist bump after like a swing his fist after a big putt or something. But no, it's true. And I've, I've read this. There was just something on the ringer. I'll give the ringer a Shout out about it after he won and, you know, his press conferences or just. And he's sort of matter of fact about it. Like, there doesn't seem to be, like, even, like, a lot of joy. He's like an automaton when he wins. And even, like, getting arrested, you know, during a tournament at the PGA didn't even really make him interesting. And normally that would be like, you know, the guy would be fired up or mad or whatever, and it's just not in his demeanor. He's just like this amazing golf robot. But, yeah, that's true. He doesn't. I don't think you get clicks. Certainly not like, for Tiger or even for, like, you know, DeChambeau or something.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Jacko]

Or Koepka. Like, those guys. Rory. Right? Those guys bring eyeballs. I don't think he does that at all. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, what's weird is the golf audience has been pretty good, but House, I know you poor House, is stuck doing a golf podcast with Nathan where they have to talk about Scotty Schoeffer after he beats everybody by six strokes. House, what do you do? Have you tried different methods to sound excited after these tournaments? Like, do you drink after? Do I even need to ask?

[Jacko]

Well, I.

[Joe House]

A couple things. In the first place, he does not possess the outward charisma. He's not even in the same league. We, you know, Jacko just ran through the top guys. Jordan Spieth, when Jordan Spieth was at the top of the game, like, magnetic, you know, all kinds of generations coming together because he was a phenom. He was young. He was the golden child. Sheffler just has. Has, you know, been a very quiet, kind of executioner, kind of style of golfer. Now there is a personality. And the story of the British Open, in advance of him going out and kicking everybody's ass was an interview that he gave at the press conference where he talked about getting life fulfillment from something other than. Than golf, that he liked golf, that he liked to beat the pants off of everybody. But it wasn't the true thing that gave him, you know, joy in his heart. It didn't. And it was a. You know, there was a lot of reaction in the golf community about, you know, wow, he doesn't really have the fire. Like, you know, people were sort of wondering what. What, what. What he was trying to convey there is. He's a very thoughtful guy, and when you can get stuff out of him now, I will say, I mean, I hope you don't mind.

[Bill Simmons]

He.

[Joe House]

He did at the British Open, the Open Championship, Let out a very long fart that a boom mike picked up.

[Bill Simmons]

And he heard about this.

[Joe House]

He confessed the fart. And it was. It was very funny, you know, so there is something there. He just doesn't exude the charisma. And to the observation Jacko made, he was the number one player in the world at the PGA Championship, trying to turn his car into the entrance of the major championship. And the cop stopped him and had no idea who the hell he was and put him in the hand cussing, whisk them away. So that we've had.

[Bill Simmons]

We've had some great athletes. And it always feels like it's a diss to talk about it, but sometimes like Tim Duncan House and I revere Tim Duncan. I think he's the best power forward of all time. I. I'll fully admit if people were going to say he's really boring when he played, I'm like. I don't really have much of a counterargument. I'm. I'm in like. Because I love Tim Duncan. Like, right. Oh, no. If you went to the game, like, to watch the way he interacted with his teammates, it was so cool and still not exciting. It's not like Anthony Edwards. I think of Anthony Edwards things. John Stockton was another one.

[Joe House]

Scheffler as Pete Sampras. I've heard that Sampras is another analogy. And I think that's. That's a good comp. Cause Sampras really was excellent for the stretch, you know, when he was on. On top. And he had a nice foil with Agassi. And Scheffler has a kind of foil, which should be. It should be Roy. But Rory is a tiny bit inconsistent. It could be Bryson, but Bryson was a little up and down this season as well.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, here's the. I wrote down top five signs. When a superstar athlete is probably boring. Number one, they're boring. Number two, they play professional golf or professional tennis is usually a red flag. Number three, you feel bad that you think they're boring. Which I think we're in that stage here. It's like, I don't even like we're doing this segment. He seems like a great guy. It's not his fault. We know a bunch of. We have a bunch of friends who. It's like, it's not their job to be the life of the party. He's just going and kicking everyone in his ass. Number four. And this happened during the British Open. The announcers were talking. They were trying to almost, almost promote that he's Less boring than he used to be. But the way they were doing it was like, well, Scotty, you know, he's made a lot of an effort recently to, to open up, to be more personable and to, to share more. And it's like, well, that's, you're definitely boring if, if outsiders are rasping at here. Yeah, he's like, hey, he's opening up. I remember they used to that with Sampras. And then the fifth one, which hasn't happened yet, is the media narrative shifting to people worrying that you're so boring you might actually hurt the sport, which I don't House, we're not there yet.

[Joe House]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Joe House]

And I don't think golf isn't that way because if he continues on the, the streak that he's on of, of like very high, he's, he's won, you know, he's finished in the top three of 10 of the last 16 majors. He's won four of the last 16 majors. Like if that, those are, those are Tiger style numbers. If he continues on that, that accomplishment all by itself is thrilling to the golf community. I don't know the answer as to whether or not you guys will, you know, make it appointment TV to catch the PGA Championship because he's up by six strokes, you know, going into a Sunday.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he's just out at that point maybe so.

[Jacko]

Well, it's going to be, going to be great someday. When you look at everybody's legacy and you're like Bobby Jones, you know, the first great American golfer. And Ben Hogan, you know, came back from a year after a car crash and you know, was a superstar and Arnold Palmer the people's champion and Nicholas the best ever. And Tiger revolutionized the game. And Scotty Scheffler, remember that time he farted.

[Bill Simmons]

The fart hurt around the world.

[Jacko]

Maybe that's the thing. He's just a cold hearted killer. But he farted that one time. That was something, huh?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. But maybe farting could be his vice. Well, House, I was thinking two things with him. One, having a reliable rival that where there's like real dislike I think would really help. So he's. We're just gonna have to just feed some sort of Bryson versus him or Rory versus him.

[Joe House]

We have the Ryder cup coming up, so there could be somebody on the European side, either Jon rahm or Rory McElroy talking shit to Sheffield. Yes. Try trying to get it out of it.

[Bill Simmons]

The other other thing is maybe we need to work. Maybe he needs like more of a character as a caddy like a fluff, like a. Maybe like a Shane Gillis type. Maybe somebody who's like a complete wild card. And Shepard's super loyal to him, but he keeps offending people with, like, jokes or. I don't know, maybe there's something we could work on with the caddy thing. The only other thing is, the thing that really works is for something bad to happen off the field and then you have to rally back and come back. Right. The comeback. We don't want that to happen with Scott. That's the third way this could play out. But other than this House, I think Ryder cup is our best chance.

[Jacko]

Yeah, I like that.

[Bill Simmons]

To have him be like the Rambo in the mid-80s, defending America's honor. Then he becomes the patriot and the hero, Scotty Sheffler. And now, now I have some momentum or something.

[Joe House]

The challenge.

[Jacko]

What if the USA is down on Sunday, right?

[Joe House]

And he's the guy that needs to.

[Jacko]

Come back like, you know, like a miracle on ice deal or something on grass, and he, you know, he leads the charge to win the Ryder Cup. That would be a good narrative for him.

[Bill Simmons]

That sounds great.

[Joe House]

The challenge for him is the shadow that Bryson DeChambeau will cast at the Ryder cup because he has become like, you know, the Captain America. Like he. When he's the people's champion, he's the people's champion. When he beat Rory McElroy at the US Open down at Pinehurst, they were chanting USA as he was walking up the fairway.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Joe House]

With his chance to, to win the tournament. So. But Scotty. Yeah. Some kind of comeback thing at the Ryder cup could help.

[Jacko]

That'd be good.

[Bill Simmons]

Speaking of golf, Happy Gilmore, too. Jack O. Hasn't seen it yet. I watched at House. Watch. We don't have to talk long about it. You know, it's. It's. If you love the first movie, it's kind of a must watch. I was very surprised by all the cameos. I'm gonna hold off on a review, but that's always yours too. I'm hold off.

[Joe House]

It was terrible.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, but it was terrible. But it was also good. Like, I. I kind of enjoyed having all these people in my life again. House. The most fascinating thing to me is it was basically a two hour critique of the live tour. That seemed to be the actual purpose of the movie is to use this fake live tour thing they had as a proxy to make them the villains and then to just bring in a bunch of actual golfer cameos and let's just say probably John Daly, who Doesn't Golf Anymore was the best one, but some of the other ones, I don't expect them to maybe move into acting full time.

[Joe House]

Probably not.

[Bill Simmons]

Be my guy. It's just there's cameos. It's kind of like they didn't fully have a script, so they loaded as many cameos as they possibly could.

[Joe House]

But I enjoyed that House.

[Bill Simmons]

Was there any interesting piece for you with all the PGA golfers that were in there? No, no, no.

[Joe House]

I like very much Adam Sandler sitting at a table with Lee Trevino and Jack Nicklaus.

[Bill Simmons]

And I agree.

[Joe House]

Yeah. That. That was like, you know.

[Bill Simmons]

And those guys happen to do lines.

[Joe House]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

The legend Fred Couples was there.

[Jacko]

Yeah.

[Joe House]

Yeah. They kept bringing Fred Couples Blueberry parfait. I think that was that. That resonated. Another dessert, Mr. Couples? Oh, why, yes. Yes, please. That. That certainly struck a chord with me.

[Bill Simmons]

So it was a little nostalgia ride.

[Joe House]

That's right. I agree with that.

[Bill Simmons]

It was what it was. Jacko. I. I still think Jacko's gonna jack. Oh, you end up watching it.

[Jacko]

Oh, yeah, no doubt. I'm sure I'll tune it at some point, see how much I can take.

[Bill Simmons]

It's fine. All right, What. But what we really want to talk about on Netflix is the. You have me with Missing Girl and a cruise.

[Jacko]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

I think cruise is it. This has been a huge summer for cruise documentaries because Poop Cruise was great. I'll never go on a cruise. Have either of you ever been on a cruise?

[Jacko]

No.

[Joe House]

I have. I went on one of the Disney cruises we took my kid for. For his birthday.

[Bill Simmons]

When was that?

[Joe House]

I think it was.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you hide that for his 9th.

[Joe House]

Birthday or his 10th birthday or maybe somewhere in one of those. And he was in a transition year where he was too young to get access to the video game room that he really wanted to be in and too old. The age appropriate room. He's like, this is boring as f. I don't want no part of any of this. So we basically had to pay for WI fi so he could play some of the video games that he wanted to play and then placate him with chicken fingers.

[Bill Simmons]

This sounds worse than the Poop cruise.

[Joe House]

He wanted to get off as quickly as possible. As soon as it became apparent that he wasn't allowed into the video game room that he wanted to be in. We went to shows and stuff. We tried. He's like, I went off. We made a mistake.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm never doing it. One of the things I love about cruises, and they dive into this, and this it's called Amy Bradley is missing. But one of the things they dive into is like cruises. There's basically like no laws. Once you get in cruise, you see like that's it. You just don't know anything's possible. Did you know this? Because I didn't fully know this.

[Jacko]

No. I didn't realize that to the extent to which the cruise is like its own entity unto itself, including laws or lack thereof. Yeah, I was unaware. But this documentary made it all too aware. I would never. And I have two daughters. My daughters will never get anywhere near the ocean, let alone not even on a cruise.

[Bill Simmons]

That's how I felt. I'm discouraged, all my immediate family from ever being on a cruise. One of the things when the girl. So this, this Amy Bradley goes missing? Yeah, in the wee hours, like 5:30 house. Like she's in the cabin next to her dad who sees her. She's on like the little cabin with her dad. Oh yeah, she's on the balcony for.

[Jacko]

It's her, her 21 year old brother and her parents, they had one cabin and he sees her sleeping on the balcony. Yeah, right.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe she's having a drink or a cigarette or something and then a half hour later doesn't see her at all. And nobody knows what happens.

[Jacko]

Never seen again.

[Bill Simmons]

One of the great things.

[Jacko]

That's what I thought. I'm like, why is this three episodes? I'm like, she fell in the ocean, she got up to throw up or she threw herself off the boat. And that was ball game. But it turns out maybe not the case.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, well, they zag against that because, well, first of all, the crews, they don't like send the alarm that somebody, they let everybody off like three hours later in Carousel, whatever it's called, Carousel. And that's another. I'm on like six missteps and mispronunciations. This part I'm in rare summer form. But they, they let her off. They let everyone off, but they don't know where she is yet. And that actually makes it worse. So then the theories become she's actually out there. She was kidnapped, she's part of sex trafficking. And then a couple different people see her and House, the whole doc is like these people being like, I was in a bathroom and there was. And I knew it was weird because somebody was monitoring her. And then I realized two years later, that's who it was. It was Amy and her family, like basically just, I don't know, losing their minds, like trying to figure out what happened to her. Now it's been 25, 26 years, Jacko.

[Joe House]

Yeah.

[Jacko]

Since 1998. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Cow.

[Jacko]

And there's a. There's like a. There's a guy that they want you to hate who was the cruise director. And he couldn't be, like, any more nonchalant about this. And it was like. Did you ever think about, like, shutting the boat down? And he's like, well, yeah, she was missing, but there was 2,500 other people that wanted to go to Curacao or whatever.

[Joe House]

Right, right.

[Jacko]

So. And I was like, yeah, she would. She jumped off the boat, unfortunately, or fell off the boat. But then there's a lot of conspiracies where people seem to see her after the fact. And there's some weird Internet things. And it's horrible for the family. It's horrific because they, you know, like, they still have her car, like, washed and tuned up, like, to come back to.

[Bill Simmons]

They kept her Miata.

[Jacko]

It's just. I can't even imagine what they go through, and it's just gotta be horrific. But. And basically, the behavior of everybody involved in this doesn't make, like, a lick of sense for the most part. Like, the FBI, they're like, we can't do that. We can't investigate that. We can't do this. And I'm like, no, but I think you could, like, like, what are we doing? What are we doing here? Seems like things to follow up on.

[Bill Simmons]

Carous House. Seems like a lot of shady stuff might be going on there too. Like, they're afraid to alert the police. And. Yeah, I think, like, if you.

[Jacko]

Since we've already trashed cruises, we might as well trash the entire Caribbean, too. Like, everybody goes to the vacation in the Caribbean. And you think like, oh, it's all good at the resort or whatever, but, like, Curacao had, like, this underbelly of, like, mob. Mobster ism and prostitution. And it was like, areas you can't even go to. And the police are like, you know, I was like, jesus. Kind of trouble.

[Bill Simmons]

Houses House is going next week now. Just book the front.

[Joe House]

Checking a lot of my boxes, Johnny. You checking a lot of my boxes.

[Bill Simmons]

That talking house out of this. Yeah. So the big thing was there was some picture, and it was on, like, a prostitution site that looked like her seven years later. And it really did look like her, Jack. Oh, that was the one.

[Jacko]

That was the scary part.

[Joe House]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And then there was a thought that maybe she got pregnant and that the.

[Jacko]

They were holding it over her head.

[Bill Simmons]

The traffickers were like, you'll lose your kid right there. Was she. She turned out. She came out to her parents and then the question was, is that why she jumped? Because she was hiding the secret. Her parents didn't accept her. So they go through all the machinations of what might have happened. And then you think it's leading to some ending where it's like we're gonna find out what happened. Yeah. And then it's like, that's it. We never found out what happened.

[Jacko]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

And then you just kind of go from there to the Internet and you go to like Reddit and hope there's some Amy Bradley site. Which of course there is. And it's like 2:30 in the morning and I'm reading the Amy Bradley Reddit site trying to find out what the fuck happened. I don't know.

[Jacko]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

And I still don't know what happened.

[Jacko]

It's well done. And they. And they. It's like a big. It's like a three episode Unsolved mysteries essentially.

[Joe House]

Like.

[Jacko]

Cause it doesn't get solved unfortunately for her family. And it's horrible. And my wife is currently in Ireland with her sister. I hope she may be at a Coldplay show. I'm not sure. But let's hope so. I was by myself and I'm like watching it down here in my finished basement and it freaked me out. And I'm like, they're gonna come traffic me. Like, what? You're not on a cruise ship. Come on. Be a man.

[Bill Simmons]

I watched the Idaho College Murders one too on Amazon and that's four episodes and probably should have been two, but that one, you know, they do. You guys gotta watch that one because basically. And it's a terrible story but the guy who ends up being the killer is somebody who was studying like criminology and like clearly like lost his mind and was like, now I want to see if I can commit one of these terrible murders and nobody will be able to catch me because I've gone to school for this. And this fucking dumbass leaves his cell phone on as he drives to and from where the murder sites were. So all they had to do was ping his cell phone.

[David Shoemaker]

Like.

[Bill Simmons]

No. To all the future murders out there. Leave the cell phone in your house. I don't know. Like you. They didn't cover that in his criminology course, apparently. Jacko. I don't know.

[Jacko]

That's like.

[Bill Simmons]

That's surprised by how poor his performance was.

[Jacko]

It's day one, Serial killer stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

Leave the cell phone in your house.

[Jacko]

Speaking of serial killers and Netflix, I just. I'm Five years late to the party. But I just banged through two seasons, the only two seasons of Mindhunter, which was good. That was so, so good. Oh, that was great show. And I'm so bummed out that it ended and then I was like, there was rumors they were going to bring it back and oh, so well done. It was so good. But yeah, between that this cruise one, I've been freaked out a lot, but I'd rather watch these depressing, horrible things than the Yankees. So that's what it's come to.

[Bill Simmons]

House, you're not true crime or you are?

[Joe House]

No, I. I enjoy it very much. What was the one about the guy in Wisconsin that I was. No. Railroaded. The guy who. His family.

[Jacko]

That's like. That's like early. What the hell was that called? Making of a murderer or something?

[Joe House]

Yes, yes, exactly. That, that, that, that. Yeah. I thought that was very riveting. I enjoyed it very much. And the end. The murder, the podcast that turned into getting the conviction overturned here in the. In the up in near Baltimore.

[Bill Simmons]

I think this true crime stuff is never going to end.

[Jacko]

No, people love it.

[Bill Simmons]

It's one of the few things you can watch, like if you're a couple. It's kind of a something for everybody, which a lot of these shows don't. Johnny, there's a show on Netflix called Hunting Wives that I would recommend.

[Jacko]

Okay, somebody else was just talking about that.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a scripted. Just a lot of nudity and a very horny show about. In these Texas house, there's a murder. You get to see a dead body early, so you know what you're in for. And then it gets really horny and it's right in your wheelhouse. I've known you for a long time.

[Jacko]

I just watched your friends and neighbors with friend of the pod, Jon Hamm. Your friend. That was a good one.

[Bill Simmons]

That was a good one. All of these shows start with the murder in the first minute and then we go backwards. Yeah, that's the model. So if we ever do the Scottish Scheffler story to make it more interesting, it'll start with his caddy being murdered in the first minute.

[Jacko]

Hopefully somebody left their cell phone behind.

[Bill Simmons]

Woody House, could we get him a more exciting caddy? Like in wrestling when his caddy. And it would give the boring wrestler a good manager, like a fun manager.

[Joe House]

A lot of people would say that his caddy is the like the thing.

[Bill Simmons]

Secret sauce.

[Joe House]

Yes. Yes. Because the guy caddied for Bubba Watson before and won two masters with Bubba Watson and now has all these majors being on Scotty's bag. And they have a symbiosis. They're both, you know, they're. They have the same religious background and religious belief. They, they pray together. There's a whole thing with the families. So it's probably not going to happen.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, we've answered it all. Ryder cup is the key. Jack has turned his back on the Yankees. And don't go on a cruise. House. Great to see you as always, Jack. I have a true pleasure. I'm glad you're well. Talk to you soon, my brother. All right, boys, thanks for coming up.

[Jacko]

Anytime. Thanks.

[Bill Simmons]

This episode is brought to you by Viori. Look, I'm not a big let's hype up workout clothes guy, but Viori, I gotta say, total game changer. Been wearing a lot. If you see me power walking around Los Angeles, probably gonna see me wearing some Vuori Sunday performance joggers that they have. It's made with four way performance stretch fabric, one of the most comfortable things you own. You will wear them everywhere, I promise. All you have to do is go to Vuyori.com and you get 20% off your first purchase with Vuori. V-U-O-R-I.com Simmons enjoy. Free shipping on all US orders over $75 plus free returns. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Building a good support system is kind of like putting a championship team together. You want skilled teammates who have your back. They're going to lift you up and help you reach your goals. And now might be the right time to add a BetterHelp therapist to your team. BetterHelp is convenient and affordable with access to over 30,000 therapists with a wide range of specialties. Build your team with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com billsimmons to get 10% off your first month, that is. Betterhelp.com billsimmons all right, we're taping this Sunday afternoon. He already wrote about Hulk hogan for the ringer.com, a great website. Talked about in the ring of wrestling show. David Shoemaker is here. We've been working together since 2011. There's been a lot of ups and downs with wrestling. We worked on the Mr. McMahon documentary series together. Knew the Hulk Hogan day was going to come at some point. Age 71, very complicated death. It was interesting when somebody has this outsize importance on a sport or in this case, a. What do we call it now, Professional and entertainment Sport, sports, entertainment, whatever we're using these days.

[David Shoemaker]

I've gone full circle to just saying sport again.

[Bill Simmons]

We'll go back. We'll go back. Somebody who was like, basically he wasn't Babe Ruth for this sport, but more like Michael Jordan. And then the last 20 years becomes this huge part of the legacy. I want to go. I want to skip all that and come back to it later and just go back to the 80s specifically and what happened. And you wrote about a lot of it.

[David Shoemaker]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Does wrestling become wrestling without Hulk Hogan? Is the big question. And everyone has asked this. Dave Meltzer wrote about in his newsletter this week about. Could you argue that a lot of this stuff might have been in motion already? The, the grease. This greases were skidded. The skids were greased.

[David Shoemaker]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I still feel like it had to have him involved for it to happen. Happen.

[David Shoemaker]

Yeah. I mean, listen, in everything in pro wrestling, there's a lot of what's accepted as truth or what's told as truth is just bs, right? Everything's sort of a work. Everything's trying to get the storyteller over or put forward some angle. So truth is really hard to come by. I, I do think that that inter. That that wrestling and going national would have happened with or without Vince McMahon, with or without the WWF, with or without Hulk Hogan, for that matter. I think, you know, it was already on some cable TV networks and as those things expanded, I think that, you know, Georgia wrestling or who, or if it was the Crock, whoever it was, the AWA world class somebody would have become a real big national promotion. But it's undeniable that Vince McMahon had a very specific eye for a certain style of this professional wrestling that really worked on a national level in and out of almost everybody's lives. And Hulk Hogan was undeniably a big part of that. Even if you just look at the whole, the Hogan part. I've tried to run this counterfactual in my head so many times, like, what if it was Dusty Rhodes? What if it was Paul Orndorff? What if it was, you know, what if, what if superstar Billy Graham had been at his peak right then? What, you know, what if it had been Ric Flair, for that matter? Like, there's so many things I think it could have worked. I still find it hard to believe. I mean, Dusty's really. You know, Vince dropped a bomb on us that he was considering Dusty when we were doing the documentary. He was considering Dusty for that Hogan spot. And I mean, Dusty's the only guy with that level of sort of baby face, star power.

[Bill Simmons]

But I think it works within the same way.

[David Shoemaker]

It's just not like. I mean, I started watching wrestling as a kid because it was like real life comic books. You know, it was like. It was the. It was the muscles, it was the screaming, it was the, you know, it was the monologues. Hulk Hogan was just a real life toy, a real life superhero. And there is just. And he was just incredibly special as a performer. Even though it's easy to look back now and say his matches were repetitive, his storylines were repetitive, you know, whatever you want to say. He was just an incredibly special performer.

[Bill Simmons]

Repetitive is a compliment. It was the same formula every time. So I think it was three things. I think it was Vince, I think it was cable, and I think it was Hulk Hogan. Yeah, but I think the cable piece was the most important because cable was pushed everything from local to national. You know, when I was growing up on the east coast, we got wwf and I didn't even really know there were other, you know, wrestling federations. I remember being in Boston after my parents got divorced and, you know, spending weekends with my dad and stuff in the mid-80s, and they had Texas on and being like, what's this? There's, you know, you only knew it from the wrestling magazines. Never saw any of those guys. And then all of a sudden they were. They were on, so stuff was popping up. But I think the cable pushing in national was a big piece. Vince having the vision to understand that this was happening in the moment and trying to mobilize, like, I have to beat everybody else to this spot. But I don't think it happens without Hogan. And I think if he doesn't have Hogan, I think he tries to beat people. But I think the south has a much better chance maybe to go national because they had TBS already, right? And I think maybe TBS in the South. And if Ric Flair had become the biggest star, maybe if Carrie Von Erich doesn't get a motorcycle accident, there's some what ifs on that side that it plays out differently. And maybe they're. And maybe they're the ones not wwf. It needed to be Hogan.

[David Shoemaker]

I think so. I mean, I just don't think you can overstate the degree to which Hulk Hogan just worked in mainstream pop culture in those days. For one thing, he was six, whatever he was. They said six, eight even. He's. He was a legit six, five, you know, back in those days. And he would go on the Tonight show or whatever and just tower over everybody and that in the, in the days, you know, I mean, obviously wrestling's always walked this fine line between how real it is and how, how, how kind of wink, wink, they're being in public. But to its earliest days, the most important thing was to have wrestlers look like guys who could beat you up.

[Bill Simmons]

Right?

[David Shoemaker]

So Hogan, like Hogan. But Hogan looked like that guy. But he also was a sort of circus clown personality. He could go on these shows and laugh at himself and laugh at everybody else, you know, and, and, and, and he fit on mtv, you know, he fit on, like I said, late night shows. He was just sort of, you know, I think people looked at him. We had the Dolly Parton bit in that, you know, documentary early on. I mean there, there was, I think people just looked at him and they immediately could process what they were looking at. And part of that was that it was a wrestling that was somewhat self aware because he was so corny, you know, but, but also just so cool.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you can't overstate Rocky III and when we were working on the Mr. McMahon doc, Rocky III was such a big part of it because Rocky III was, you know, Star wars was the biggest multi sequel franchise we had. But Rocky, Rocky ii, Rocky III was in the conversation and his cameo, extended cameo in Rocky iii which it was funny. I was in a text this weekend with Sal and Gus and a couple other people. We were like, where, where does Thunderlips just rank in the Rocky characters rankings? Like just for, like just, for just, just characters who just hit a home run. And Thunderlips is just in the top five. He comes in. It's an all time Dion Waiters performance that we talked about in the rewatchables and just crushes, six minutes of it. And it was just so clear. He was this larger than life wrestling star. And after that happened then I didn't, you know, he was at awa, which I think they were running some stuff on espn. But I don't really remember seeing him that much. I was watching a ton of wrestling. But I do remember the whole storyline with Backlin the Sheik beating back when Hulk Hogan coming in as reinforcements for Backlin. Then I watched him win the title live on the MSG network because at that point I was in Connecticut, my parents had been divorced. I was there and it was on and I can't tell you how exciting it was.

[David Shoemaker]

I came along right after that. I was actually piecing the, I wrote about this in the piece. I was going back through the timeline saying I remember where it was. And I watched that where it was then I watched that and, and I almost said, I remember being in my, my TV room when, when Hogan beat the Sheikah. Like no, no, no, I wasn't watching yet. I started watching because Hogan beat the chic because of this like tidal wave of like, you know, popularity that came.

[Bill Simmons]

After that it just felt, it felt new because Backlin had gotten stale and I think he'd had four and a half plus years and he was just this baby faced all American and it just, it felt a little stale. There was other stuff going on, other battles, other villains and, and Andre was looming over everything. But it just, it felt like we needed, we needed, we needed a hero. Which was where we were in America because that's when Stallone has first blood. That's in 82 or 83, but leads to Rambo first blood two in 85. We have Schwarzenegger coming in, we have Ronald Reagan taking on the Russians. And we did this when we did the documentary, this little section about like, you know, testosterone superheroes defending America. Hulk leaned into that as much as anybody like after they changed the Eye of the Tiger song and he does the real American. Like this was a real way to market yourself. I am your patriotic superhero. It wasn't going to happen with Bob Backlin.

[David Shoemaker]

No. I mean, and Bob Acklin in some ways in more traditional lens might have fit that role a little bit better. But it was just a different casting call when it came to 80s pop culture.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[David Shoemaker]

I mean it was, it's exactly like you said, the competition, you know, when pro wrestling is at its best, it's not competing against pro wrestling, it's competing against other things in the mainstream. And you're right, I mean what it's competition then was those action movies. You know, I mean that, that was it for me. Like I said younger. I mean it literally, wrestling literally came on after Saturday morning cartoon. So at some point you just got, you, you, you were watching, you know, these muscle bound dudes on cartoons and then you just sort of got old enough to watch the real thing. You've, you matured at 6 years old or whatever.

[Bill Simmons]

But it was never cool either. And that's one of the things that shifted in the mid-80s was as it became more mainstream there was this weird validation that came with that like ah, maybe I'm not a fucking complete loser. Like it's, this is now an mtv like shit's happening.

[David Shoemaker]

Yeah, I mean we've been through I guess three of those at least now in our lifetimes where wrestling Got cool again. And, and. And everybody and every wrestling fan has that same feeling every time. Remember I talked to the guys who, who were filmed the curtain call video in the. In the attitude era days, and they were told their story about meeting each other. They were like, we were the only two guys wearing wrestling T shirts at high school. And then everybody started wearing wrestling T shirts. You know, they were, they were kind of despondent. You know, they're like, ah, we're not, we're not. We. We didn't want to be nerds, but now we. We're sad that we're not unique. But yeah, Hogan, it really did just change everything, man. I mean, like, you know, I think I was always the biggest wrestling fan amongst my friends, you know, when I was. When I was a kid. But everybody was into wrestling. Like, every boy that I grew up with, like, could tell you what happened on Saturday night's main event, you know, and Hulk Hogan was such a big part of that. The other big part of every big wrestling movement moment is expansion. And they went from, you know, zero pay per views to I think they were at 3 when Hogan left the first time. But there's, you know, these huge pay. They went through closed circuit, they went, you know, do onto pay per view and then the Saturday night's main event phenomenon. And that's to say nothing of the MTV shows and all this. I mean, but I mean, it was just enormous as a cultural influence at that point in time.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, there was these little checkpoints. I think Thunder Lips helped. Hogan coming over, Hogan winning the title and that becoming like a huge thing. The slaughter versus chic kind of showdown. That really helped from a, From a. Just where we were in a cold war standpoint, MTV having Cyndi Lauper kind of be involved and make it seem like she thought wrestling was cool. It was like, okay. And then WrestleMania. But even after WrestleMania, it was on USA, that Tuesday night Titan show. It was like a Talk Show. Vince McMahon did the Letterman anniversary thing. That was a big deal. And then Hogan just started selling out everywhere. And the mainstream media started writing about it, talking about it, doing news segments about it. I still feel like after he won the title that first year or so that he had, he was about as big as any athlete. Sports entertainment like, this dude's just selling out NBA. He could have sold out NBA arenas and you name the city every night, night after night, it just didn't matter. Everyone went to go see him or wanted to see him.

[David Shoemaker]

Yeah, that was it. I don't know if it Was Mel. I think it was Alvarez, actually, who said that you put Hogan's name on the marquee and it sells an extra 4,000 tickets that day. You know, like, it's just. And that's, you know, it's just immediate name recognition. People buy tickets. And it was. I mean, the business just blew up. It was. It was absolutely crazy. And I know. I mean, in. And there were times. I have one memory, I wrote about it in the piece about seeing Hogan when I was pretty young and I was trying to find the date of the show and get it all specific. I look back, and they had three house shows in one night. On the night that I saw them, they were all in Kentucky. They were also working in Pennsylvania and New Jersey. Like, they were just going wall to wall with this product because of. In large part because of this celebrity that Hulk Hogan brought.

[Bill Simmons]

And a lot of the stuff he was doing had been done in different forms before him. It wasn't like he was Neil Armstrong landing on the moon, but he elevated or perfected certain things. Like when Paul Orndorff turned on him, because everyone always points to Macho man turning on him, which was the most famous one. And that was on the main event show at that point. But Orndorff turning on him, which was basically the Zabisco San Martino. Wait, I thought you guys were buddies. Oh, my God, you turned on him. I mean, that's been Wrestling 101. But when that happened and then Hogan just. We just had this steady stream of either he was buddies with them and the guy turned because they were jealous. They couldn't be Hogan, so they had to. They had to like, get him back. Or just like these weird villains that would come in out of nowhere.

[David Shoemaker]

Oh, there's the monsters.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, big monsters that our patriotic superhero had to defeat. And it was the same recipe. They would beat the shit out of them. They would beat the shit out of them. He'd Hulk up, he'd come back and. And the match would end the same.

[David Shoemaker]

And yeah, wag the finger punches, the face, clothesline, leg drop. It was a. It was. It was a tried and true, tried and true recipe. And you're right, they did. I mean, the Orndorff thing was similar to the Zabisco San Martino thing, except the same thing with. Or with Orange Dwarf and Macho Man. If you look back, Hogan's kind of actually the asshole in all those situations. Like, he was like. That's sort of the low key thing about Hogan. Through his careers, he wrestled like A heel. He sort of was a he to his friends. But he was still the baby face in of record. He was still the one that they were had to turn against and talk about repetition. One of his, one of my least favorite Hogan moments when he came back at WrestleMania 9 after Bret Hart lost to Yokozuna to just be, to, to take the title from Yokozuna. That was the same thing that happened with Backlin and the Chic. Basically he came back let back. You know, he's like I'm buddies with the, with the, with the champ, the now ex champ and I'm just going to take the belt while he's well, he's out of the picture easy as kind of a jerk at times in character. But people kind of love that. You know, they loved him no matter what he did. I think that's what made Hogan so irrepressible. But you're right to mention those moments. I mean after WrestleMania 3 when it was him and Andre and we don't have to skip over that entirely. I mean, you know, WrestleMania, I mean the, the, the Macho man match at WrestleMania was absolutely huge. The mega powers colliding and then the Warrior match where he was supposed to pass the torch to the Ultimate Warrior did pass the torch to in a very good match at WrestleMania to the ultimate.

[Bill Simmons]

But that was sort of matches. Well, I mean going back to Andre, which I should have mentioned sooner, which has been written about and discussed ad nauseam and we've been involved in multiple documentaries about that one and heard multiple.

[David Shoemaker]

Versions of the events from Hogan himself.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah. Couldn't keep track of what, what he told us. But I, I, I could just say this. Like the Leonard vs Hagler fight was within two weekends of it and it might have even been within one weekend of it. And Leonard coming out of retirement, Sugar Ray to fight Hagler. And it was just like one of the biggest boxing fights of all time. Everyone was so excited about it. And Hogan, Andre was around there and I love both and I was equally excited for both. Yeah, like that's, that's, it felt like they were on parents that this matchup was on par with the biggest possible boxing event that we could have. And that's just where it was. And it kept going. And the Macho Man, I think that's been underrated over the years. How big that was and how they use main event. You look back at some of the main event ratings, what did I send you that one time a couple months ago I texted you how it was like 26 million people watching one of.

[David Shoemaker]

The main events, the Hogan Andre main event that had the twin referees.

[Bill Simmons]

Another famous moment.

[David Shoemaker]

I think that. I think I just. I think it was. It was either. I think it was 33 million people, which is still the record.

[Jacko]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

That would be bigger than. Than a Super bowl now. Yeah, that was the other thing with Hogan. You know, there was so many. So many things like that were going on. But there was some great unintentional comedy with him when he would try to act. You know, like when he would. When the pinnacle was him versus Macho man over Miss Elizabeth with. In the hospital room. And Macho man telling him, you got jealous eyes. Yeah, you got jealous eyes. And Hogan's doing the. What do you mean? What do you mean? Macho? And it's just so we're. We're kind of making fun of them as we're idolizing them in the 80s. This guy's a complete idiot, but we love him anyway.

[David Shoemaker]

It's totally true. I mean, listen, he got in the. In the Hogan Andre feud in the, in the. The Piper's Pit segment where that sets the whole thing up. Up when, when, when Andre grabs his shirt and tears it off. He unintentionally grabbed his necklace and tore it off too. And it cut Hogan in the chest. And Hogan was holding the necklace and he's bleeding.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[David Shoemaker]

And. And aside. And that's one of those serendipitous things that makes wrestling so amazing because without the blood.

[Joe House]

Yeah, he.

[David Shoemaker]

He's doing the same shick you were just describing. He's like, why Andre? Why? You know, and, but, but the blood makes it feel like a real moment and we're just all totally roped in. I mean, Andre was also so of all of those big menacing bad guys, I think the only one who was really bigger than him who looked like he could beat up Hulk Hogan. So that, that was. That helped a lot too. And of course, Andre's history. I mean, he was just terrifying.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And meanwhile, he could barely move. So. So you have Hogan much like Stallone, much like Schwarzenegger, much like some of our other favorites from that era where there's like unintentional comedy. They're a one on one. We love them. There's a question of how long can you keep this going? What's the shelf life of a gimmick like this? And we hit the 90s and he's had this phenomenal run. But then we have the steroid trial. He's still hulking up. It's just not Working the same way. The crowd's starting to flip a tiny bit, and it leads to him eventually starting to do TV shows, going to wcw, but then improbably ending up with this other incredible moment. You know, with. With this, with WCW and NWO and him becoming the third man and him, Hogan going heel, which is in the running for biggest wrestling moment of all time. I don't know if it's first, but it's in the top four, right?

[David Shoemaker]

Oh, dude, I feel like I should have an answer prepared for this. Yeah, it's definitely, It's. It's definitely up there. I mean, I think top four.

[Bill Simmons]

It has to be mad.

[David Shoemaker]

It's. It. It absolutely changed everything. Is it the biggest moment of Hulk Hogan's career? I mean, maybe you can make the case that everything he did led up to this moment. Like it was the culmination of. Of 30 years in the ring. That. That made it so poignant.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, until we. To reinvent something that seemed like it had run its course. Yeah, I think is one of the hardest things to do. You know, it's like we've seen athletes try to. It would like Tom Brady going to Tampa Bay. Even that seems somewhat realistic. Hogan reinventing himself, becoming the biggest heel in the business, and basically flipping WWE versus WCW. It was like the odds on that were like 100:1.

[David Shoemaker]

No, it was. It was really. I mean, it was really improbable. And you know, just like in a wrestling match where you got. If you have a big moment coming, you kind of like, they, they. They lower the stakes a little bit for like the four minutes leading up to it, you know, they're not going to do anything too crazy. They accidentally did that in wcw. By making his first couple, his first year and a half there, just the most boring thing possible. You know, he was there just replaying the hits. It was just like a fake. It was like. It was like if. What. What wrestling is in a movie, you know, just this just silly Hulk Hogan feuds against people you didn't care about. And then all. But you know, the announcers are there. Tony Schiavone, God bless him, screaming his head off. Like, this is the most important thing in the world. When he came down to the ring to take, you know, to take to presumably take on the outsiders, and then he joined them. I mean, that was just an absolutely irreplaceable moment in pro wrestling Israel. Yeah, he's the third man.

[Bill Simmons]

No. So he gets like one more year out of that, and then it seems over again. WCW completely Falls apart. There's some great stuff that I, in the couple days after he passed, some stuff I even forgot about, like the, the 2000 bash on the beach. And just when it's gone so bad, we're like almost Dirk Diggler jerking off in the church parking lot level, like Grizzly. That's how bad it goes. But then we have the merger, he comes back and then he has another iconic all time moment against the Rock in WrestleMania which probably the best moment of the whole match was when they're just in the ring beforehand staring at each other and the crowd's going apeshit and they just kind of do the facing different directions move, just kind of soaking it in and he ends up winning the title. I think I even wrote about this for ESPN the Magazine about like Hogan's last comeback. So this was the last great thing for him.

[David Shoemaker]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, listen, the, the WCW NWO run was. It was just a few years and it had some great moments. You know, everyone remembers the Sting feud. Everyone remembers, you know, Goldberg in the Georgia Dome. Everybody remembers, you know, Hogan versus losing the title, Alexa Luger, which was an incredibly transformative moment. If you were just the right age to really love Lex Luger. It was, I mean there's a lot of good moments, but by the end he was just, you know, the Internet had come to exist and Hogan was sort of got. Was one of the first guys that really got saddled with the baggage of being a guy who was like kind of hard to work with backstage or had too much creative control. Let's just say it wasn't really he. Yeah. And, and I mean, listen, the moment that he passed on, I got like five texts the, in a row that were just like some version of the joke he said to St. Peter, that's not going to work for me, brother. You know, like, like that's, that phrase is just everywhere, you know, when it comes to, to any joke about wrestlers being hard to work with backstage. But you know, he had all this baggage and it, and then not coming over immediately when WWF bought WCW was not his fault and at all. But like, like it kind of saddled him with a little bit more when he finally showed up, you know, we were excited to see the NWO again, but like, you know, no one quite knew. Hogan was not just like, it wasn't not a triumphant return for him until that match. That match against the Rock was another. Just a moment can only exist in wrestling where the entire, I mean, God bless Canada. The entire crowd just decided, we will accept you back Hulk Hogan, and that's. And it happened in this match. He enters as the heel, he walks out as the biggest baby face that business has ever seen once again. And, you know, I don't want to rewrite history, but if he had hung up the boots that night, he probably would have gone down as the greatest wrestler that ever lived, like, full stop. You know, I mean, people would still be making the case for the guys who could work better from bell to bell, you know, like Flair and Macho, whoever else. But, like. But I mean, Hogan, I mean, that was. That was the. That to me, I was the end. I don't. I don't care about the McMahon feud. You know, it was just sort of another. Just.

[Jacko]

They.

[David Shoemaker]

I mean, they kind of. They had to do it. But whatever. The Mr. America run was funny, but whatever.

[Bill Simmons]

Him winning the title is probably the epilogue. And then anything after that, literally everything after that, you could probably toss in the. In the garbage bag, because. So the. The. The cheat sheets were bad for him. Him.

[David Shoemaker]

Once that really started.

[Bill Simmons]

The dirt sheets in the. What did I call them? The cheat sheets. I'm washed up. Like Hogan, the dirt sheets. The. That was bad because that was the first time people like us were like, wait, Hogan's a dick.

[David Shoemaker]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't. Wait.

[David Shoemaker]

It wasn't even so much that he was a dick, because it was just that he had the. In the power and influence to demand creative control in his contract. And they said yes. You know, like, he's like, I'm not going to.

[Bill Simmons]

To.

[David Shoemaker]

I'm not going to stop doing Thunder in Paradise unless you give me creative control. You know, they're like, okay, we'll get. And the people that are paying this money don't. I mean, this isn't. The promoters. They don't. This is time. This is Turner. You know, I mean, like, this is. This is the whole. The big parent company. They just think Hulk Hogan's famous. Whatever it takes will bring him in.

[Bill Simmons]

But then, yeah, unfortunately, every instinct he has was. And then Hulk will come in and Hulk will pin so and so.

[David Shoemaker]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[David Shoemaker]

Unfortunately, that's what almost every wrestler thinks. He also did help out a lot of people along the way. You know, I talked to Kevin Sullivan before he passed along, and he was leading that Dungeon of Doom stable like, that Hogan was shooting with before the nwo. And he was like, oh, yeah, all those guys were just Hogan's buddies and Hogan and. And we just had to keep him employed. So I just made this thing up for everybody to do. Something, you know, that was just Hogan. Hogan had a lot of dudes, but Brutus the Barber, you know, the, the Nasty Boys who kept jobs for a long time because they were associated with him. So, So I guess I'm sure they're going to miss him especially.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, sometimes this happens. Sometimes you die at the perfect time for a career move. Not obviously for yourself, because dying is never a win, but from a career standpoint, sometimes people can die at the perfect time. People can last way too long, or in some cases the post career stuff can then overshadow whatever happened in their career, which I think is, is a big piece of what. I mean, the, the scandal with him and Bubba, Bubba the Love Sponge and the sex tape and the, all the N word stuff and the racist stuff. Like, it's just, it's really rough and, and he was never really apologetic enough about it, you know, and then even when he went to talk to the roster, that apology didn't work. And it's, that might have been the.

[David Shoemaker]

Worst part of it. I mean, I, I did, I went back through as I was writing my piece and this is so morbid, but I was like, if he had died, like, what are the moments that he could have died? And he would have been remember purely positively. I mean, it's kind of any moment before that tape came out. But really, if he had, I mean, listen, he had all this success in Japan before his WWE run. If he had, if he had like you know, just disappeared. I wouldn't say died. Just disappeared after WrestleMania 1, it would have been like, you know, Jim Morrison. Like, it would, you know, would have been one of these, like, crazy, like, look at this run. And then he's just gone and like, whatever.

[Bill Simmons]

Obviously say that about the Smashing Pumpkins guy.

[David Shoemaker]

Oh, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

If he had just disappeared in 1998 and nobody ever saw him again, we would be like, genius.

[David Shoemaker]

Yes, yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Corgan. Like sometimes that's. And then sometimes all the stuff you do after ends up infecting how you think of the best stuff.

[David Shoemaker]

It's true. But like, yeah, it was basically the past, if anything, before the past 15 years. And he would have just been the greatest icon this business has ever seen. I mean, Hogan knows best. The reality show wasn't like deplorable, you know, it was just like, you understood why he did it and it kind of made him look like a goof and kind of weirdly obsessed with his daughter. But like, like, you get it. Like, it was, it was cool that there was a wrestler getting that kind of attention but, yeah, the Raw was the shocking one.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you go to that first Netflix Raw? I can't remember.

[David Shoemaker]

No, I was not there. I was not there. I was watching it at home, but the booze were just as loud in my home.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, my Lord. I went with Ben, you know, and Ben's always. He's not reading up on what the Legends, how they're fucking up their lives post career. He just knows Hogan from the wrestling stuff. Stuff. And Hogan came out and it wasn't like, oh, some people are booing him, some people are cheering him. This was like, just passionate boos. And the most fascinating thing about it, you know, in the old days, he would have fed off the crowd and flipped. And he would have been like, oh, I'm getting a ton of heat right now. Let me actually play off that and be like, how dare you? You guys are so ungrateful. Everything I did for this country. And he just would have flipped it the way, honestly, Rock kind of flipped it a little bit during the lead up to WrestleMania last year. But he didn't. And he seemed like he was just going through his plan. He was confused. He had Jimmy Hart behind him waving a flag, and it was awful. It really was like. And I think it would have been a bigger story, but tragically, the next day was when the fire started ripping through California, and there wasn't a lot of, like, dissection for three days of what happened at. At this Netflix Raw event. But I gotta say, I was in the moment. Shoemaker. I was like. I was dumbfounded. I couldn't believe, like, it was, like, actual hatred. It felt like. And I don't think it was just the Trump stuff. I think it was a variety of things.

[David Shoemaker]

No, I mean, you mentioned it before when he gave the. When he came back again, this is the dirt sheets getting the better of Hogan when he came back to give the speech to the locker room after, you know, kind of being banned for a year and a half after the racist. The racist video came out. Yeah, he had apologized in the news. He apologized in ABC News and in People magazine. And an apology. The fact desk when I was writing my piece said, are you sure we're going to use the word apology here? Because the words I'm sorry are never spoken. But it's. I was like, yeah, it's kind of an apo. Whatever.

[Bill Simmons]

But it was an acknowledgment.

[David Shoemaker]

It was an acknowledgment that he was. That he, you know, regrets it or whatever. But then he came back into the locker room. And instead of saying, I'm sorry to. For hurt, if I'm sorry for being a racist, I'm sorry for hurting you. I'm sorry for saying these things. He said, said, you guys better watch out for hidden cameras, because they can really ruin your life. And then everybody there, Everybody there. I know guys are in that locker room, but they're just like, I'm done with them. I can't. I just can't, you know, after that. And fans all knew about it, too. So that was a lot of what it went into it. I mean, WWE does this thing now, and they have a very, very savvy, Very, very savvy PR department. But they'll do this thing. You'll see them do this thing where they leak out a story like WWE considering in a relationship with Hulk Hogan's beer company. And then two days later, it happens. But. And you. They. And it's almost like they're doing a trial balloon, but deliberately not waiting for the results just so after it happens, they can say, hey, we put out a trial balloon, you know, like, right? And they did it with Hogan, and they said, oh, he's gonna come promote his beer. But now that just meant all the fans were ready for it, right? So instead of it being a surprise that Hogan's there and, like, you know, he just happens to be wearing a beer T shirt shirt, and he's a beer T shirt, and he's there to hug everybody. They were all just like, he's coming back, but only to sell us some bad beer. Like, what? And they. And. And these were already had these issues with him, and it seems so contrived, and they were ready for it, and he came out and just got the biggest booze that you could possibly get, man. And it's just. It's. It's like, fans really hate when they feel like the wrestlers don't care about wrestling, Right? It's why, like, you know, when Brock Lesnar and Goldberg were at WrestleMania 20 or whatever, they were both leaving the company. The fans hated. Like, you guys don't even want to be here. Get the hell out of here. They got booed the whole match. And when. If you come back just to sell beer, the fans are just like, get the hell out of here, dude. Like, come on. You can't even, like, apologize, right? You want us to buy your beer? Like, let's see. That's so funny.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, it was a rare misread by the room by especially and by the WWE and tko to think that that was A good idea. I mean, no.

[David Shoemaker]

And to have no back and no way to back out of it. Oh, you're holding up a Hogan glass show now.

[Bill Simmons]

The Hogan glass. I have all these old WWE glasses from the 80s, but this is like. This is where we were. This was like a cartoon superhero. I'm holding up. If you're watching the video pod, the Hulkamania on the glass with the. You know, this was. The guy was a merchandise machine. He was. I. I genuinely felt like on par with Stallone and everybody else from that era. From how famous he was, I would probably didn't make as much money as.

[David Shoemaker]

Stallone, but he definitely sold more T shirts than those guys.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And, you know, you think back and you think it was him and Vince growing this company, blowing it out. And then the steroid trial happened. And it seems like both of them are done, but they're not. And it keeps going for another 30 years. And now one's gone in a pretty fairly disgraceful way, even in death. And then the other one is just gone. Vince. And we probably will never see him again, but he's out of it. He sold the company. To say it's been a rocky five years for him would be an understatement. And we'll see how it plays out legally. But it's just. This was the backbone of this entire business, and both of them just left in disgrace.

[David Shoemaker]

Yeah. I mean, you know, maybe it shouldn't be too shocking. I remember when the. When the tape came out. When I. When the tape came out about Hogan I was talking to. This might have been on one of those early Cheap Heat episodes or something with Rosenberg. But I remember saying, this is super disappointing now, you know, if we could magically, you know, if we could. If we could. An angel came down and gave us a list of all the other wrestlers who said the N word. And, you know, private conversations. I think it would be a pretty long list, you know. You know, you look around the world, you don't. You know, maybe we shouldn't have been too shocked about that sort of disgrace, especially as we enter the modern world. Wrestling's a very, very odd space, but, yeah, I mean, it's. When Vince put out that statement about, you know, like, acknowledging Hogan's death, it was just like. I'm sure he wasn't super excited to do it, but it was like, do we really need this right now?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know.

[David Shoemaker]

The last time I saw Hogan, I think, was when he did the interview for the. For the. For the. Vince. Doc.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[David Shoemaker]

We, we went down to Florida and you know, I was there as the sort of bullshit detector on set and, and there. What can you do with Hulk Hogan? You know, I mean, it's just all bullshit. But you know, he looked okay at that point. He was walking around with like a, a staff, like a giant. He, I guess, you know, he's, he's not going to be carried using a cane. He's Hulk Hogan. So he had like a giant walking stick that he, that was like 7ft tall that got him from his like super tall truck in and out and, and he was always very open about the physical pain he'd been in since he retired. And even while he was wrestling, you know, he got hit multiple hip replacements. I think four, three or four hip replacements and had, I remember at one point there was, he was, he couldn't sit in a folding chair to sign autographs for 15 minutes. You know, like he was in that kind of physical pain. But he was sort of getting around and then, but you know, he was very, he was much more complimentary events in that interview than I expected him to be. You know, he, he was much more. And, and again, the truth varies in Hogan's mind from moment to moment, you know, like whatever. But it did seem like there was some sort of, it was time to just sort of make peace with everything and, and, and go out on a good note vibe coming from him.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I can't imagine what he put into his body over, over like a 40 year stretch. So to, to, to live to 71 and then die of heart failure. I can't say neither of us would have been shocked by that one. This was, you're talking about ground zero with steroids of the 70s and 80s before the steroids were even that good. You know, they just made you bulky and watery and all these guys were doing it. And you know, it's, we're not breaking any news here, but there's, there's just a slew of wrestlers who have died at ages younger than this. So even get into 71.

[David Shoemaker]

No, I mean this is. Yeah, you're right. This is, and this isn't even like you got a sports doctor. This is like you bought them from another dude in the gym locker room in Tampa or whatever. You know, steroids. These are horse steroids. This is like terrible to be putting in your body. And yeah, a lot of people, it's just like hearts exploded, you know, when they were in their 30s and 40s and certainly in their 50s. Yeah, I mean it's crazy and it's crazy to see him. I mean, we've all seen video of him working out with the back brace on. You know, Hogan had, he was Hogan until the day he died. He always had the, the, the tad, a little bit of stringy white hair and the, and the mustache and the muscles and the tan and, and you know, that was always part of the gimmick, brother. You know, he, he lived it till the end, I guess. You know, when we look back now, that rumor about him dying a few weeks ago that Bubba the Lun Love Sponge put out was probably closer to true at the time it was, was dismissed. But that seemed like the beginning of the, I mean that, you know, you could probably draw a straight line and.

[Bill Simmons]

And well, to put, to put a bow on this. I still feel like Rock had the, the total package as a wrestler in the best possible way. With the mic skills combined with what an athlete he was growing up in the business. I still have him one for kind of overall talent. I think Hogan is the most popular I've ever seen. I wasn't, I didn't see Bruno and his peak or some of these guys from the earlier in the mid-70s, but I can't imagine anyone got a louder pop than Hogan, especially in the 80s, walking into a 17,000 seat arena as people. And I feel like those crowds kind of pre 85 were wired a little differently anyway. They would just lose their fucking minds at every match.

[David Shoemaker]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And then Ric Flair is probably, you know, he's, he's like the LeBron of all this, right? Like the longest, best career, did the most things. But if you're going to start some sort of list, I feel like those three have to be on it. Is that. Who's. Are there two other people you feel like have to be on it? I'm not saying Mount Rushmore. I'm just saying like just the guys.

[David Shoemaker]

That, I mean, you know, I would always put Austin above the Rock. I mean, just because he had a very long career with a bunch of different stuff, you know, a bunch of different angles and the heights of the attitude arrow. I mean that was his. It was the glass breaking. You know, the Rock is. You can make a case for the Rock, especially since all this, you know, he's made all these movies, he's gotten so much more famous and he's come back now.

[Bill Simmons]

He was overqualified to be a wrestler. He's the only one you could say, like, I actually, I'm slumming at doing this. I've got to go become A movie star.

[David Shoemaker]

Yeah, it's true. You know, there's some people in the modern era that try to make the case of Roman Reigns or CM Punk or John Cena. I think Cena would get a lot of votes now that he's on his retirement tour.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Shoemaker]

You know, I, I, I find it really hard to separate Ric Flair and Dusty Rhodes. I mean, a lot of their careers were very separate, but Dusty was the one guy that had that sort of charisma, you know, that sort of magic. It's really hard. But Hogan, I mean, I think that you look back and it's pretty easy to say that Hogan stands above everybody else, you know, I mean, it's like you look back at the, the, the first, like eight years, you know, whatever of Hogan's, of the Hulkamania era. I mean, who is the second most important character, like who is second on the call sheet? It's probably mean Jean Okerland. You know, like it's Hogan. This was like a one man show for almost a decade, you know, and it was just the people that, that, that orbited around him. I mean, it's really, it's, I mean, it's, he is, he's pretty singular, you know, and again, not a great professional wrestler bell to bell. But he told the stories in the ring and maybe that's the most important part.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And there's only a couple guys left now. Ric Flair still hanging on, Vince still hanging on. But we're looking at pretty, pretty soon, I think Everybody from the 70s and 80s is going to be gone and.

[David Shoemaker]

Everybody from the 90s is somehow still wrestling. So I don't know how we're going to reconcile this.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, well, the medicine's better. David Shoemaker, great to see you as always. Thanks for popping up.

[David Shoemaker]

Great to see you too, man. Thanks.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Shoemaker and Jacko and House, thanks to Eduardo and Gahao as well. Don't forget you can watch all of the videos from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. We have new rewatchables coming too, as well on Monday night. And I'm going to be back midweek with one more podcast on this feed. See you then. Must be 21 plus in President in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + in President D.C. gambling problem. Call 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-87-7-8, Hope NY or text Hopeny in New York.