← The Bill Simmons Podcast
The Bill Simmons Podcast
NFL Preseason Hype Buy or Sell. Plus, Spike Lee on Basketball and Movies | With Danny Kelly
02:25:21
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- [00:00]
Bill Simmons
This episode is brought to you by Yahoo. Fantasy. It's my favorite time of the year. The NFL season almost here. Fantasy football full swing. It's happening this season. Yahoo Fantasy is taking it up a notch and giving you a fantasy football experience like never before. This year I'm playing on Yahoo. Fantasy and you should too, because we have a big ringer league that we're doing. We're going to do a live draft, we're going to have bragging rights and all kinds of things that are going to be happening. You should join us. You should have your own league. Yahoo. Fantasy dropping 28 big new features over 28 days through August. They just dropped Yahoo. Fantasy Guillotine leagues where the lowest scoring team gets eliminated weekly until one is left standing. Give this new mode a try or stick with the classics in private head to head leagues or public leagues. Stay tuned for more killer announcements. Start playing Yahoo. Fantasy Football now@yahooFantasy.com Simmons the Bill Simmons Podcast brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network where I put up a new rewatchables. On Monday we did Rollerball, which came out in 1975 and is one of the first great modern sports movies. Bryan Copler and I broke it down. You can listen to it or watch it on The Ringer Movies YouTube channel or on Spotify. Next Monday we're doing a movie that came out 50 years after rollerball. I think this is the biggest disparity we've ever had between an old movie.
- [01:20]
Spike Lee
And a new movie.
- [01:21]
Bill Simmons
A 50 year difference. We're doing Sinners. Best movie I saw this year. I've seen it a bunch of times and cannot wait to talk about it. So that's going to be on Monday. Stay tuned for that. Spike Lee and I talked about that a little bit later actually, when we did our interview, so you can look forward to that. Want to talk while we're talking about movies? Mission accomplished. New narrative podcast that's going to be on the Big Picture Podcast. It's about the 2000s, the Bush years, and a deeper dive into some of the films that came out right after America was going through 9, 11 and a whole bunch of other stuff. So that premiered August 12th and you can check it out on the Big Picture Podcast. On this podcast, Danny Kelly's coming in and we're going to talk about all the preseason NFL hype. What do we believe? What do we not believe? What are we actually even more excited about than the hype? I told him 25 minutes and I think we went 50. So a lot of NFL. A lot of NFL going on. Can't wait for it to come back. We're getting close. And then Spike Lee, for the second time ever, he has a new movie coming out and that is not what we spent the first half hour talking about because we had to catch up on a lot of basketball stuff. He came over to the new studio and did it. I'm getting back in the swing with these celebrity interviews. I'm trying to remember how to do them. It's been so long. Once Covid happened. I hate interviewing people on Zoom. We'd had this great run of interviews in 16, 17, 18, 19, and then Covid just stopped it. But now I want to get back in this swing. So Spike's helping me get my chops back. But I had great time. A lot of good stuff that came out of that too. So this is a big action backed podcast. One note, I will not have a podcast on Sunday unless there's some sort of major sports event or something. But I'm probably not coming back until middle of next week. So just keep that one in mind. We're going to take a break, do Pearl Jam and then Danny Kelly and then finally Spike Lee right after this. All right, Recording this late Wednesday, so if anything happens, don't blame us. Danny Kelly is here. You can read him on the ringer.com, you can listen to him on the Ringer Fantasy football show. An excellent show. We'll be doing our little four person preview on this podcast a little later in August. Danny Kelly. I was thinking about it. This is our 10th NFL season together.
- [04:10]
Danny Kelly
Wow.
- [04:11]
Spike Lee
Yeah.
- [04:11]
Danny Kelly
Oh yeah, it is. That's right.
- [04:13]
Bill Simmons
Cause The Ringer was June 2016 and this is season number 10. So what was going on in September 2016? Oh, man, we still had Tom Brady. Peyton Manning was gone. Rogers was becoming the king. The Seahawks were still relatively relevant, right.
- [04:33]
Danny Kelly
There was still a chance that they were going to kind of keep their dynasty alive, but it just didn't happen after that.
- [04:39]
Bill Simmons
The Kennels were getting a lot of hype and not coming through, which is just like now.
- [04:44]
Danny Kelly
Deja vu. Yeah, man.
- [04:46]
Bill Simmons
We had all these quarterbacks we didn't really have yet, like Josh Allen and Mahomes. None of those guys were on the radar yet. We were wondering who the next wave was going to be.
- [04:55]
Danny Kelly
Early on in my tenure at the Ringer, we did Cleveland Browns week. I can't remember exactly what season it was. Might have been that first season. Obviously that didn't pan out so well.
- [05:07]
Bill Simmons
We probably had a sponsor for it. Who left? Who was like, I don't want to sponsor the segment about. Give us our money back. So it is officially preseason hype time. You pointed this out. I said, hey, I need an NFL segment. I want us to do something. And you're like, well, it's, it's. It's preseason hype season. It's almost mid August. This is when we overreact to stuff, good and bad. We're going to play a game called buy or sell. So it's preseason hype. It's not just the good hype. This is also the oh, train wreck coming kind of hype. It's all kinds of hype. What's your number one preseason hype either way that you've been like, huh, what's going on here?
- [05:49]
Danny Kelly
So this is tough because there's a lot of really fun things. I'm one of those sickos that likes to watch preseason football and get really into the nitty gritty. I. The first one I want to bring up, bring up is the Bears offense. The situation that's going on with the Bears offense. I feel like there's Bears despair right now with camp, and it's weird because at the same time, there's really good vibes with Ben Johnson. Like, that signing was electric and everything they've done from like, the coaching point of view has been good. But I think all the reviews so far from camp and everything that you're seeing on Twitter and kind of just what's happening at practices, it feels like it's not going so well. So I am officially selling Bears to spare. I'm holding out. I still have hope, I still have faith that the Bears are going to be a pretty good offense. It's going to be a huge upgrade over what we saw last year.
- [06:38]
Bill Simmons
So do you think this is a case of the offense is just way more elaborate than it was last year? And it's the classic. Everyone's just trying to figure out stuff. Everybody's got way more jobs, 50 different plays than they had before, and it's just super choppy.
- [06:53]
Danny Kelly
Yes. And I think the, the nice part, it's like one of those things where as the season goes along, I think it's. It's going to start to look a lot better. I know Ben Johnson is sort of known for being very detail oriented, and to me, what that says is early on in training camp, he's going to be so focused on all those details that they're going to have to kind of keep going over it, you know, getting all the motions correct, getting the snaps just how he wants it, getting everybody in the right place. But I think that was kind of a. You know, that was a big part of the reason their offense just wasn't good last year is like, guys aren't going into the right spot. You got guys that are not fully bought in with. With the offensive system or like, whatever the coaching. Dj Moore is walking off the field during a play, you know, that was just kind of the type.
- [07:35]
Bill Simmons
That was a great.
- [07:37]
Danny Kelly
That, to me, was just like the biggest indication of how terrible everything could have possibly gone. Like, Caleb Williams is scrambling around and DJ Moore just walks off the field. And I'm like, okay, that's. That is the. That's the biggest indication. This is just an absolute train wreck. But if you go through, obviously, I think the Ben. The Ben Johnson hiring, to me is like one of the biggest hirings of this kind of era. It has the potential to be kind of like that Sean McVeigh thing. Obviously, we've seen guys with a ton of hype that don't end up being very good, and that could be the case with Ben Johnson. But everything we. We've talked about for the last two or three years is Ben Johnson. You know, genius play caller, genius play designer, play sequencer. You know, he's pulling out end arounds, hook and ladders, passing to tackles, passing to, you know, having double passes, everything. Like, he. He has been more in his bag as a play caller than any other offensive play caller in the NFL over the last few years. And so to me, that is a huge, huge upgrade, especially when you compare it to, like, Shane Waldron last year. I mean, Shane Waldron has become kind of a butt of jokes. But, you know, the thing that we always talk about on our show is there was an interview last off season with Jackson, Smith and Jigba, and he was asked, like, what do you. What do you think of the Shane Waldron hiring for the Bears? And Smith and Jigba was like, are we live here? Is this on them? Yeah, he's like, he's a good person.
- [09:04]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Nice guy.
- [09:06]
Spike Lee
Yeah.
- [09:06]
Danny Kelly
So, I mean, I think that's a massive upgrade. They've done a lot to work on their offensive line. I saw, PFF has the Bears going into this year as the fourth best offensive line. That's a bit of an outlier. But I've seen, you know, fantasy points has them 15th draft. Sharks has them 10th, FTN has them 12th. So they're a. They have the potential to be a top half of the League offensive line. If everybody kind of works out with that they brought in, they drafted Colson. Leveling Luther Burden year two of Roman Dunes. Hopefully he's healthy. I'm just kind of buying all the different ingredients here and I still have belief in Caleb Williams, even though obviously he looked terrible as a rookie most of the time. I mean he had some pretty good games too, but the lows were just really concerning and so hopefully Ben Johnson can just eliminate some of those really, really bad games and kind of raise the floor for the whole offense.
- [09:52]
Bill Simmons
You left out the Bill Simmons rankings which I sent to you. You're the only person I sent them to. Yeah, I had the top four, Denver, Buffalo, Philly, Tampa for offensive lines. But the next tier, Indy, Atlanta, Minnesota and Chicago. Yeah, I think they're a top eight. If you just look at like the amount of money they spent, the people they have and the talent and the ages, like it just, you know, and I defer to all the offensive line guru like Brandon Thorne, people like that. And all of them are like, that line's going to be good. The Chargers I think I had potentially up there. But after the Slater thing not happening. So the Bears piece, it feels like it's going to be choppy. I feel like we've seen this before in other NFL situations where it takes like a month.
- [10:36]
Danny Kelly
Right.
- [10:37]
Bill Simmons
And I have my eye on them like as a second half. I'm just trying to file this away for from a betting standpoint, I think they're over under is eight and a half which to me feels a whiff low because if you're just going to pick pile on a division, I think that's one of the divisions to look at. And I think the other one would be the NFC West. If you're like there's a 40 plus win division sitting here in one of these conferences, NFC north and AFC West I think would be the two picks. The problem for me with them just like as I think of them big picture is, you know, some of the schedule stuff and all the night games like they, we get to week 13, they're playing a Friday night, they're week 16 a Saturday night, week 17, Sunday night football, they play two other Monday night games. It's like for a team that wasn't good last year, they're being treated like they're a national TV thing. But they go Vikings first week of the season. And that's the thing that really scares me because I think there's a case for the Vikings defense to be the best defense this year. If you're going to say who's the best defense this year and you're just listing candidates. Vikings, Texans are in there. Steelers still have to be in there. Even though I think they're going to.
- [11:51]
Spike Lee
Slip off a little bit.
- [11:53]
Bill Simmons
Is there anybody else you would even put in that conversation? It's probably the Vikings in the number one spot.
- [11:58]
Danny Kelly
I mean. Yeah.
- [11:59]
Bill Simmons
For preseason. So they're playing in week one on Monday night, which makes me nervous.
- [12:03]
Danny Kelly
This is going to. Yeah. And please remember, I'm not saying week one. They're going to be a very good offense. I think as the year goes on, we're going to start to see the Ben Johnson effect take hold. I think it's going to be a tough one that Week one against the Vikings. You know, they're going to make his. They're going to make Caleb Williams life kind of hell. And it'll be interesting.
- [12:21]
Bill Simmons
Oh, these guys. No, now these guys are going 100%. It's going to be a nightmare.
- [12:26]
Danny Kelly
Yeah.
- [12:26]
Bill Simmons
But I think our overreaction, Week one, it's like the Bears are dead. Caleb Williams, his career is over. And then that'll be like five and four after week ten.
- [12:34]
Danny Kelly
Yeah.
- [12:35]
Bill Simmons
All right. I like that one. I'm going chalk with this first pick. I saw my guy, Peter Schrager, I saw a clip of him on one of the ESPN shows because he's on a bunch of them now, and he was doing this, and I was laughing because I knew it was coming. I wish I could have bet on this on FanDuel. The giants knew Abdul Carter was going to be good. They didn't know he was going to be this good. Yeah, there's. That's. That. This is the official week of. Holy shit. This guy might already be one of the most impactful defensive guys in the league. This was the devastation of the Patriots with the Joe Milton game, who, of course, plays his first preseason game for Dallas and stinks.
- [13:20]
Spike Lee
Right.
- [13:21]
Bill Simmons
And meanwhile, the one time he was able to put together three decent hours in a row cost us the number one pick. I like Will Campbell. I'm happy for him. But this Abdul Carter thing and the Giants having a real kind of frightening pass rush, I don't know what it means, but it means something. And it means there, at very least, if you're. If you don't have your shit together offensively and maybe your. Your left tackle's out, you can't block to begin with. It's not a team I want to see. So have you been following the Carter hype? Train? Cause I'm buying.
- [13:51]
Danny Kelly
Oh, a hundred percent. I, I mean, this, you know, this could be one of the best fronts in football. Dexter Lawrence is probably the best defensive tackle or one of the best defensive tackles.
- [14:00]
Bill Simmons
It's definitely one of the best. I, I thought you, when you started that sentence, I thought you were going to be one of the best fronts of the decade.
- [14:08]
Danny Kelly
No, I'm not going that hard. Um, but yeah, I think this is the type of team. There's a couple teams that are doing this right now. I feel like the, the jets are kind of trying to do this too. It's like emulating the Eagles. Like, the Eagles are the prototype. They're the blueprint. You know, if we have a really good defense with a ton of studs up front, we can, you know, that can create things for the back end and then we can. On offense, we can run the ball and play a ball control offense and, you know, all that stuff. And I think there's teams that are trying to kind of emulate that. This is a very poor man's version of it, I think, for the Giants. Yeah, but, you know, I heard on the broadcast the other day that Jackson Dart models his game after Jalen hurts. And I'm like, I can kind of see what he's talking about in the sense that he's really good throwing deep, he can hit those big plays, he can run around, he can be part of the run game. They had some design runs for him, you know, and Dave all is a guy that comes from coaching, you know, Josh Allen. So, like, I think he's open to utilizing his quarterback in the run game again. This is a very poor man's version of it. And you know, I wasn't like the hugest Jackson Dart fan, but I do.
- [15:13]
Spike Lee
I.
- [15:14]
Danny Kelly
One of my things I actually was going to bring is that I'm buying that the Giants are going to be kind of fun this year. I don't know if they're going to be good, but they're going to be worth watching. That defense is going to be really.
- [15:23]
Bill Simmons
Um, you know, you know where they got fucked.
- [15:26]
Danny Kelly
Where's that?
- [15:27]
Bill Simmons
They should have an awesome schedule, right? They, they sucked last year. They're playing the AFC west and the NFC North. Those are the two. You don't want their fourth place schedule. They're playing the Patriots, Vegas and the Niners. Like all those teams might be good.
- [15:43]
Danny Kelly
We, yeah, we were trying to figure out when the best spot to bench Russell Wilson and bring Jackson Dart in this season is going to be. And it's kind of tough because you.
- [15:54]
Bill Simmons
Got to go, like, mid season.
- [15:56]
Danny Kelly
I mean, I guess maybe at Bears, we can't do. Yeah, you can't do week five there. That's at New Orleans. Because then after that they get Philly, Denver, Philly, San Francisco.
- [16:06]
Bill Simmons
I mean, that is Denver and Philly in the road. By the way, we. I forgot when we were talking best defenses, I forgot to mention Philly. I'd like to apologize to the defining champion Eagles and their fans. And I forgot to mention the Broncos. Cause that's the other team that I think could have a top three defense. But in the Giants case, at the very least, it's a team that if they're up 1310 in the third quarter and they could just be like, oh, you have to throw the ball now. And they're just unleashing everybody. We've seen teams that have awesome pass rushes. It doesn't matter when you're down 20 to 3.
- [16:40]
Danny Kelly
Right?
- [16:40]
Bill Simmons
It's not. Who cares? But I agree with you. I think they're going to be really fun on both sides of the ball, which is different than basically every incarnation of the Giants for the last 10 years.
- [16:51]
Danny Kelly
I know. Yeah. I give Heifetz crap all the time just because the Giants have been one of the worst teams in the NFL. Like, they score some of the fewest points, fewest touchdowns. They've just been pretty much awful since we started working together at the ringer. So hopefully this year that changes and he can have a little joy in his life from his team.
- [17:08]
Bill Simmons
Listen, the Carter thing was a miracle that he got the third.
- [17:11]
Danny Kelly
Seriously.
- [17:11]
Bill Simmons
It's a miracle in that a team traded up to two and didn't take Carter.
- [17:15]
Danny Kelly
Right.
- [17:15]
Bill Simmons
And I don't know, maybe they were worried about the foot and. But I'm just the Travis Hunter. That's great. You can play both sides of the ball. You're going to be super exciting. I get it. But I just. If you're just starting from scratch, what are the things you need to be an awesome team?
- [17:31]
Danny Kelly
Right.
- [17:31]
Bill Simmons
Quarterback one. And probably somebody like Carter would be the number two thing you would want.
- [17:36]
Danny Kelly
Yeah.
- [17:37]
Bill Simmons
Just started from scratch, so. Well, you. I went there, but then you pivoted it back to Jackson Dart. So I think I get to go again.
- [17:45]
Danny Kelly
Yeah. Okay.
- [17:47]
Bill Simmons
Josh Simmons. Casey having a left tackle.
- [17:50]
Danny Kelly
Oh, good one.
- [17:52]
Bill Simmons
I've been reading a lot about this. So they lost tuning because everyone's like, well, they have a left tackle that. Well, you're still. You still lost Tuney, so you can't say your Offensive line is going to be dramatically better, but they will have a left tackle. They get this guy. You're, you know, you're one of the focal points of our draft pod. Somebody that would have been in the top 10 to 12 range, if he doesn't get hurt, gets hurt, falls into the, you know, end of the first round, all the smart draft people were like, oh, shit, that might be a good pick if that guy could play next year. And guess what? He can play. Are you buying that? Combined with Rasheed Rice back, a healthy Pacheco?
- [18:32]
Danny Kelly
Yep.
- [18:33]
Bill Simmons
We get Hollywood Brown back. Are you buying the Mahomes assaults as a fantasy guy or no?
- [18:39]
Danny Kelly
I think so. I'm, I'm cautiously optimistic. Obviously the problem is I'm a little nervous because they have such a good defense that they're just going to play the type of football that they've been playing the last couple of years, which is where, you know, they dominate defensively and they don't, you know, and they haven't been as explosive as they were early on in Mahomes career. In fact, if you look at Mahomes, his numbers on deep passing last year, they were pretty horrific relative to what you'd expect from him. And so, and then obviously Travis Kelce, kind of a shell of what he used to be. But that's, I mean, he's still a good player. He's still going to create matchup problems on the inside. I'm cautiously buying what the Chiefs are doing. They've, they've upgraded their offensive skill player group. I, I'm a, I was a Jalen Royals fan. I think he could give them something while Rasheed Rice is suspended. I think Xavier Worthy, he showed last year that he can kind of play that Rasheed Rice role as well in terms of getting him opportunities to run after catch crossing routes. You can't catch up to him on crossing routes. He will just run away from you. And you know, I thought he showed some things. I still don't think he's like a complete receiver. He's not going to win in contested catch situations or anything like that. But, you know, they, they've, then they'll get Rasheed Rice back at some point, either week four or week six probably. And he's looking like he's been pretty healthy. So, you know, their offensive skill group will be a lot better. Pacheco is going to give them a little bit of, you know, explosiveness on the ground. They got Elijah Mitchell and Brashard Smith this year in free agency. The problem last year they had like one of the slowest run games I've ever seen. You know, they're trotting Cream Hunt out there as like one of their main guys and he was, you know, he doesn't have any explosiveness left. He's a good tackle breaker but not scaring anybody. So they have a little more explosiveness on the, in the ground game. And then like you said, the Josh Simmons thing, I actually circled, I mocked Josh Simmons to the Chiefs and of course it happened. You know, it's like one of those things where it's like just the perfect situation for them. It sounds like he's healthy, his tape was outstanding. He didn't face a ton of really high level competition early in the season. But I mean, he just, he looked like the best pass protecting left tackle in college football at that time. Like he was just, it looked easy for him.
- [20:42]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [20:43]
Danny Kelly
So, you know, getting a left tackle at that spot, pretty incredible. So if he can stay healthy, that's obviously a huge, huge boost for them.
- [20:50]
Bill Simmons
So first three weeks they're playing the Chargers in San Paulo. God only knows what that field's going to be. Eagles week two at home and then at Giants week three, and then Ravens week four.
- [21:04]
Danny Kelly
Dang.
- [21:05]
Bill Simmons
So no Rasheed Rice those first four weeks. And I could see the same like ah, Chiefs offense. And then by mid season though, yeah, they'll be going. You know, I did that. You already knew that I had Allen as the top quarterback and of course a lot of people were upset about that. Mahomes fans and Chiefs Fans. He was sixth in MVP last year.
- [21:28]
Spike Lee
Sixth.
- [21:28]
Bill Simmons
He didn't even throw for 4,000 yards. And then he didn't win the Super Bowl. And it's not like he was like amazing in the playoff games. I don't feel bad about it. I think Josh Allen right now, in this moment, week to week, as from, from a durability standpoint and just everything you want is still the best guy. If I had to bet my life on a guy for one game, I would still bet on Mahomes. But that's not the exercise. It's like, who would you rather have for an entire season?
- [21:56]
Danny Kelly
Right.
- [21:56]
Bill Simmons
And I just think Josh is the best, best guy for that question. And I don't feel bad about it. I know you probably disagree.
- [22:02]
Danny Kelly
I mean, I think when you were talking, I was in my head thinking if I, if my life depends on one guy executing a drive in the fourth quarter, I'm going with Mahomes. So maybe that's why you go with that. But if you're explicitly saying like the full season like big picture complete package, I can understand it. But I still probably go with Mahomes. Just. It's more of just like a lore and confidence in him getting it done in the crunch time type of thing than anything than Alan. Yeah.
- [22:31]
Bill Simmons
I went back and I watched the fourth quarter of the Chiefs Bills game and I think I blocked the Kincaid play out of my mind. I forgot how amazing Allen was on that play to get that pass off. And then if Kincaid catches, becomes this legendary Josh Allen comes through the Bills. You just think that's why I think it's way closer. It's a good argument. It's what? Way closer than people think. What do you have for the next hype thing?
- [22:58]
Danny Kelly
Well, I'm surprised you haven't said this, so maybe I'm stealing it from you, but Travion Henderson as the new Jameer Gibbs or insert any super exciting explos explosive, electric running back into that sentence. I. I tried Henderson like Buzz, to be fair.
- [23:15]
Bill Simmons
I was hoping and praying you would bring it up. I was saving. I thought if it came from me, it wouldn't be as genuine.
- [23:21]
Danny Kelly
I. I am buying this so hard. I'm buying it 100%. You know, obviously it's very early, but the fact that he took his first NFL touch 100 yards for a touchdown is like you kind of can't ignore that. The thing that I loved about him, you know, going back to the draft, I actually had him. I have him and Omari Hampton right next to each other. But I had Henderson over Hampton just slightly because of some of the stuff he can do in the passing game and just the pure juice that he brings. He's just so explosive.
- [23:48]
Bill Simmons
And the pass blocking, which was like they've never had a guy who had speed like this but could also pass block.
- [23:55]
Danny Kelly
Yeah. And you know, add in everything you heard about him at Ohio State was just like he is the alpha, he's the best guy. Everybody absolutely loves this guy so much in. In terms of just like the character and everything. So I am so excited about what he can bring to this offense. Obviously explosive element you heard about. I think today he had some 70.
- [24:14]
Bill Simmons
Yard touchdown on second play of the script. Yeah, the second don't like I didn't follow that. Yeah, he's. He's breaking plays left and right. It's just. He gets in the open, he's just gone.
- [24:23]
Danny Kelly
I think it's like simultaneously you can't get, you can't buy in too much to the running back hype when it comes to the preseason because they're not hitting. Sorry. You know, it comes to like training camp and everything. Because they're not hitting, they're not tackling as much. But with him, it's passing game and what they can do in him, with him in the passing game. Vertical routes. Like, I've seen multiple highlights of him running down the sideline, whether it's wheel routes or vertical routes. I just think he's a really dynamic big play creator and is going to give the Patriots the type of juice that they really do need in on their offense.
- [24:59]
Spike Lee
Like.
- [24:59]
Danny Kelly
Like, who else gives them juice right now?
- [25:01]
Bill Simmons
I mean, Williams is the other chance and then Diggs if he comes back. But they have way more speed than they had last year.
- [25:06]
Danny Kelly
Yeah. And so, and I think just in the NFL, this, in this era, you have to have explosive playmakers. You know, especially in an era when teams are trying so hard to limit the big play. Like, this is the type of guy who can create big plays, who can, you know, in theory get teams to kind of like load the box a little bit more because you start to threaten in the run game. I still think that they're going to use Ramandre Stevenson quite a bit, but Trayvon Henderson as a complimentary. The Jameer Gibbs, David Montgomery type of thing. I think he has some real potential. And I am unabashedly all in on this hype right now. I'm loving it.
- [25:42]
Bill Simmons
They've had no explosiveness, much like the Chiefs last year, where if you don't have a couple guys in the field who can scare you a little bit. So this Henderson thing, all. If you just. If somebody stole my phone and looked at my text, they're basically all about Roman Anthony Trivian Henderson.
- [25:58]
Spike Lee
Yeah, yeah.
- [25:58]
Bill Simmons
And. And whether Jason Tatum can come back by the All Star break. But so you mentioned Gibbs and it's. First of all, Henderson, I think is still like 151 to be Offensive Rookie of the Year on FanDuel, something like that. Maybe it's gone down a little bit from. Because the hype has started. But you mentioned Gibbs and it's like, man, it would be amazing if he could be Jameer Gibbs. He's only been in the league two years, but they took him 12th and it was like, this is a weapon. This is this toy. Here are Gibbs's stats his first year. 182 rushes for 945 yards and 10 touchdowns rushing. Then catching was 52 for 316. His longest catch and run was 20 yards.
- [26:46]
Danny Kelly
Oh, that's surprising.
- [26:47]
Bill Simmons
If Henderson doesn't, I'm sorry, 24 yards. If Henderson doesn't beat that, I'm going to be shocked. Yeah, I think he can get, first of all, if he plays 17 games, if he stays on the field, which I think he can because he's one of those like short, all muscle, like he. I think he can cuss somebody. On Washington last week, the guy put his head down, Henderson like truck. The guy bulldozed him, he trucked him. But it's like, could he get 50 to 60 yards a week rushing, but then in the passing game be like a 60 catch, but maybe like a 500 or 550 guy because he'll break two or three during the season.
- [27:25]
Spike Lee
Right.
- [27:26]
Bill Simmons
And then if that's the case, not only are in the offensive rookie of the year combo, but you're in like, could you be an RB2 for somebody in fantasy? Which I actually think he can. And the thing with him is they can pass back with them. McDaniel had some stealth quotes about him that did get recognized by the true Pats fans where he was comparing him to Danny Woodhead, Shane Vereen, James White, some of these third down backs. And he was just like, he's just has way more juice than. And I love those guys, but he has way more juice than those guys had and can block. So they've never really had anybody like this. But this is for what McDaniels does. This is the kind of guy he loves. We've just never had a guy this talented in that spot. So I don't think you could do enough. Not only am I buying the hype, I'll buy everyone else's hype. Yeah, I'm just. If there's an island, I'm buying condos on it. I'm ready to go. I am all in. And honestly, it's a miracle that he fell to 38. It's a miracle because Cleveland had 36 and took his teammate, who's already gotten into trouble off the field. But in the moment, people were like, whoa. They took. It was honestly like a Nick Chubbs Sony Michelle situation where it's like, ooh, you took the wrong guy from the college. So it to get that guy at 38 is a miracle. I can't believe it.
- [28:42]
Danny Kelly
There was a lot of buzz that he was going to be a first rounder coming into the draft. I think there was, you know, people taking the over on running backs in the first round.
- [28:50]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [28:51]
Danny Kelly
Genty and whoever else it might have been, Trayvon or Whoever and Hampton and, you know, I, I think it's really just because he wasn't necessarily a quote unquote, full time running back in college. Like, maybe that was the difference that. That he fell a little bit.
- [29:07]
Bill Simmons
But I guess my question is why couldn't he be like. Or maybe he could be like a. Could he be like a 17 carries a game guy plus a pass catch guy? If he can block and he's just built like a fucking truck, like, why couldn't he play? We have short running backs. I mean, I don't know.
- [29:26]
Spike Lee
He.
- [29:26]
Danny Kelly
I think he could. I think the worry is he was banged up several times in the wear and tear thing.
- [29:31]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, okay, I get it.
- [29:33]
Danny Kelly
But, yeah, I mean, overall, you know, where do running backs really differentiate themselves? I think big plays, passing game stuff, obviously breaking tackles. I don't know if he's like a huge tackle breaker, but I think what he is is a, you know, he's.
- [29:46]
Bill Simmons
A nobody touches them guy.
- [29:48]
Danny Kelly
Right? He's like a, you know, the pursuit angle killer. He, he. He gets past pursuit angles because he's so explosive. And so I think, you know, he has potential to be a really valuable player regardless of the position, just because of what he can do and how he protects the quarterback, you know? Their first two picks were. The Patriots first two picks were designed to help protect Drake May. They're Will Campbell and Trayvon Henderson.
- [30:09]
Spike Lee
Those.
- [30:09]
Danny Kelly
Get both. Both those guys are going to protect Drake May. So I can see the logic. I think it was, you know, great job by the Patriots, obviously.
- [30:16]
Bill Simmons
Well, and then in the third round, they get a left guard, so they actually have the semblance of we can actually protect Drake May. Now they need Drake May to protect himself and not, you know, take on seven guys. Let's take a quick break and then we'll do the rest of the. Buy or sell guys. All right, go ahead. You're up. Buy or sell?
- [30:32]
Danny Kelly
I am buying. The Teoa McMillan hype that we're seeing in the preseason here, I'm surprised.
- [30:37]
Bill Simmons
I got. I'm selling. I'll sell my. I'll sell mine to you.
- [30:40]
Danny Kelly
Okay. Okay. Yeah, I'll buy it.
- [30:42]
Bill Simmons
I'm.
- [30:42]
Danny Kelly
I'm scooping up as many shares as I can. I think he is exactly what Bryce Young needs in terms of a true number 1x receiver guy that can win in the short middle, you know, and deep areas, big body. And the, the important part is I think he does what he does for the rest of the skill group. For the Panthers, it's like a cascading effect where he's the true number one. You got Adam Thielen, who is a steely veteran. He could be the number two. He's not at this point in his career. He's not going to be a good number one. Xavier Leguette, who they drafted in the first round, can be like an explosive after the catch. Playmaker kind of design, manufacture some touches for him. He's not going to be a true number one type guy. And then they have a couple other players. Jalen Coker is getting some hype and it kind of just rounds out that receiver group. I think Bryce Young can really, you know, continue what he did in the second half of last year, which was, I mean, one of the big storylines obviously kind of flew under the radar because Panthers are so bad. But Bryce Young being really good in the second half of the year obviously could be a type of thing where it saves the Panthers franchise for the next like five years.
- [31:48]
Bill Simmons
Really good. How about. Can we just go with good?
- [31:52]
Spike Lee
Sure.
- [31:53]
Bill Simmons
Pretty good.
- [31:54]
Danny Kelly
You mean Bryce Young or just Ted McMillan?
- [31:56]
Bill Simmons
Bryce Young, like, I don't know. Really good is.
- [32:00]
Danny Kelly
Yeah. I wouldn't put him in like the top 10 or anything like that.
- [32:03]
Bill Simmons
But he, he was, he was horrific.
- [32:05]
Danny Kelly
To start his career.
- [32:06]
Bill Simmons
He was not a bust. And then it was like, ah, Bryce Young, pretty good.
- [32:10]
Danny Kelly
Yeah.
- [32:10]
Bill Simmons
I don't know what to expect from him this year. Yeah.
- [32:13]
Danny Kelly
Why you out? Why you out?
- [32:17]
Bill Simmons
Big receivers, I feel like, take a little bit of a while, especially as rookies, and I, I just think they're counting on him too much. I can't remember that many guys just coming in right away built like him, who are just reliable, dominant number one receivers for a team. Like even dk when he came in the other dk, DK Metcalf.
- [32:40]
Spike Lee
Right.
- [32:41]
Bill Simmons
Who I think had, if I remember correctly, a good rookie season. But he also was on a team that had other good receivers and, you know, they. They could kind of ease him in. And so that. That'd be the only thing I worry about with him.
- [32:53]
Spike Lee
Yeah.
- [32:53]
Bill Simmons
I have a receiver I was going to throw at you.
- [32:56]
Danny Kelly
Okay.
- [32:58]
Bill Simmons
As you know, one of my specialties is sniffing out the training camp quotes about people on a team. When the quotes hit a certain level where you're like, oh, this feels real. And you can like, Jaden Daniels was a good one last year. If you read anything about Jaden Daniels in Washington last year, every story, the way teammates talked about him, the way coaches talked about him, the media at the practices, it was like, shit, something's happening. Here I didn't have the balls to pick them to make the playoffs, but it was like, clearly something special is happening with him.
- [33:31]
Danny Kelly
Yeah. Yeah.
- [33:32]
Bill Simmons
So there's a first round pick that's not Abdul Carter that there's. This is happening for and it's under the radar and I'll be interested to see if you can guess it. I'll give you one guess.
- [33:44]
Danny Kelly
First round pick.
- [33:45]
Bill Simmons
It's somebody you liked who went a tiny bit later than he was supposed to go.
- [33:49]
Danny Kelly
And it's a receiver.
- [33:52]
Bill Simmons
Oh, see, now I'm giving you hints. If I tell you that, you'll know the answer is.
- [33:57]
Danny Kelly
I was going to say Ameka Buka.
- [33:58]
Bill Simmons
That's the answer.
- [33:59]
Danny Kelly
Yes. Yeah.
- [34:01]
Bill Simmons
Just Google people listening after you finish this. Google Ameke Agbuca hype and read all the stories. In fact, there's one right here from Buccaneers Wire. Hype continues to rise for Buccaneers top pick. But everyone's just like, this guy's awesome. And it's very similar to the Brian Thomas Jr. Last year where from the moment he got to the Jaguars, people are like, this guy's awesome. And the teammates are like, that guy's fucking awesome. We did this drill today and he toasted nine people and he's just so. He might just be really good, which to me, like, I know, I know Worfs is out for a few weeks, but if Godwin can actually come back and be where he was before he got hurt. And you have Mike Evans there still, but then you have this other guy who could be this year's BTJ for all we know. Does that change how you think about the Bucks at all?
- [34:52]
Danny Kelly
Yeah, I mean, I think it definitely gives them the boost that they need with, you know, worse being out and them losing Liam Cohen. I think there's just question marks over what this offense is going to be like with. With those types of losses. But everything that you've heard about a Mechag Buka so far, like you said, has just been. They're not even asking people about him. And like, you got players talking about him like he's so, so great.
- [35:15]
Bill Simmons
That's when you know this is like, this happened with your guy Russell Wilson, rookie year. This is when I picked Seattle to make the super bowl because all the quotes were like, russell Wilson, holy shit.
- [35:25]
Danny Kelly
Yep.
- [35:26]
Bill Simmons
This is unbelievable. I can't believe what he's doing. And it feels like that's the case with Igbuka.
- [35:31]
Danny Kelly
Well, and it reminds me, it's funny, like another homer pick for me. It reminds me a lot of Doug Baldwin's first training camp where Doug Baldwin, he was really under the radar. Undrafted free agent. And so obviously it's a little bit different because Booker was a first rounder. But like immediately upon getting to training camp, everyone watching, because in those days I think you still can, you can just go watch Seahawks training camps. And everyone knew immediately like, this guy's making the team. He's really good. He's probably their best receiver because he was just toasting people every day. Like a big player too, every day. I think that's what's happening with a Buka. I mean, and it makes sense. He's like really experienced, great hands, really good route runner, really good blocker, high character. He just has a really high floor. And that was kind of what I had ranked 13th overall in the draft, I think. And people were kind of not six.
- [36:21]
Bill Simmons
Seven spots lower than that. Eight.
- [36:23]
Danny Kelly
Yeah.
- [36:23]
Bill Simmons
Where'd he go in the 20s?
- [36:26]
Danny Kelly
I don't remember the top off the top of my head exactly.
- [36:28]
Bill Simmons
Cause I remember he dropped because nobody needed a receiver for like six, seven picks was the reason.
- [36:34]
Danny Kelly
And it was, I mean, I remember my reaction to the pick was like, oh, that's kind of weird actually. Like I didn't expect the Buccaneers. They just, I think resigned Chris Godwin to a big contract. Jaylen McMillan last year was pretty good in the second half.
- [36:47]
Bill Simmons
Well, the GM, the GM basically said like this guy was the best guy on our board. Like we didn't even really need a receiver, but we couldn't not take him. So we took him.
- [36:56]
Danny Kelly
He was a 19s pick. But you know, I think there was concerns that he did he. Number one. He's not like the most explosive guy. So I think people have sort of a, a bias against first round receivers. Should be super excited.
- [37:08]
Bill Simmons
I know, fucking stupid.
- [37:10]
Danny Kelly
But he catches everything. You know, he's, he's a big body guy, really reliable. You know, I think Ohio State's all time leading receiver and that's like on teams with, you know, Chris Olave, Garrett Wilson, like obviously he never led his team in receiving, but he, he was just so reliable year in and year out. And he kind of fell off a little bit because he, he had some injuries that his production suffered a little bit.
- [37:32]
Bill Simmons
He's going to be on all my fantasy teams. I love him. What do you have as your next one?
- [37:38]
Danny Kelly
I'm going with, I'm selling the Jets. Justin Fields experiment. Speaking of Ohio State.
- [37:45]
Spike Lee
Wow.
- [37:46]
Bill Simmons
Okay.
- [37:48]
Danny Kelly
I think for fantasy it's going to be good. So we have to delineate there Because I think for fantasy he's really exciting. He has, he's getting pushed up right now. I think I saw in one rank he was QB11. So he's getting pushed up the ranks.
- [38:00]
Bill Simmons
Well, because you figure he, if he's 10 for 70 rushing every week, I.
- [38:05]
Danny Kelly
Mean, yeah, he's going to run the hell out of the ball. Their offensive line is pretty good or it could be really good. But I mean he, to me Fields is one of those. He, he's a classic story of highly drafted quarterback goes to a bad team. You get stuck with multiple offensive coordinators throughout your first few years, get traded to, you know, and, and kind of it's just like it just never really happens. And I think with him I, you know, you remember I was really high on him. I thought he was going to be a really good probably, but he just doesn't, he's, he just doesn't work quickly enough in the pocket and I don't know if he can necessarily fix that. I think there will be good games here and there, but overall, I mean if you look at some of the stats from last year when he was on the Steelers, 39% success rate, which was 36 out of 39 quarterbacks that qualified, 12% sack rate, which was dead last, 45% pressure rate, which, which was dead last among those 39 quarterbacks. He just takes so many sacks. He does, he can't, he doesn't get rid of the ball quick enough.
- [39:02]
Bill Simmons
And I don't feel like when you're down 10 with him in the fourth quarter, the game's over.
- [39:06]
Danny Kelly
That's what I was going to say next is basically like they have to have the game script that's kind of just perfect for what he does. And so.
- [39:15]
Bill Simmons
If you're up 13 to 6 with 10 minutes left, it's great run, run, run play action, then you're okay with them.
- [39:22]
Danny Kelly
So I'm in on, I'm in on the fantasy portion of it but, and I don't know if anyone's really that excited, but this last preseason game, like he looked pretty, there was some exciting plays and he ran in for a touchdown. So I'm trying not to let myself get too excited about the Justin Fields thing because I've bought into the field stuff earlier in his career and I don't want to fall for it again.
- [39:40]
Bill Simmons
I've, I've test drove the jets over, you know. Cause I had a.
- [39:45]
Danny Kelly
What is it at right now?
- [39:47]
Bill Simmons
It's, it's low, it's. I think it's Five and a half.
- [39:50]
Danny Kelly
Yeah.
- [39:50]
Bill Simmons
Their schedule's pretty hard, especially if the Dolphins end up being good, which I don't think they will be, but, you know, I think the Pats are going to be better and the Bills are.
- [39:59]
Spike Lee
In there and then.
- [40:01]
Bill Simmons
But I can't get there. I think it'll be, though, they'll have two upsets during the season where they run the ball really well. They have a lead, they don't have a turnover. And they, you know, I could see them being a tease buster, but I'm with you on Fields. I just thought it was too hard for him when they. When you actually need your quarterback to move the ball down the field and throw the ball, I just don't think.
- [40:26]
Spike Lee
He can do it.
- [40:27]
Danny Kelly
Also, they don't have any receivers after Garrett Wilson. I mean, their number two right now is, I think, Josh Reynolds, you know, and then they have a rookie, rookie tight end. You can't, you can't expect a rookie tight end to elevate an offense. It rarely happens. I mean, Brock Bowers is a special, special player. So I think it's.
- [40:43]
Bill Simmons
I think it's going to happen with Tyler Warren a little bit on the Colts. Oh, he was throwing there on the hype list.
- [40:48]
Danny Kelly
Do that. Let's do that.
- [40:50]
Bill Simmons
I just think he should have been the first tight end. I like that he didn't go first because now he's got the chip on the shoulder that he didn't go first.
- [40:56]
Danny Kelly
Yeah, yeah.
- [40:57]
Bill Simmons
They actually really need him. They have two quarterbacks that I don't trust with wide receivers at all. And they're are probably going to be throwing them the ball anyway. So I just. He's jumping out to me. As you know, Bowers is above everybody and then Kittle. But then if you go into that next tier, am I going to pay $15 for whoever and I can try to get this guy instead at 4 or 5? Like, I'm just going to do that.
- [41:23]
Danny Kelly
Yeah. How surprised are you going to be if he's the top receiver on that team this year?
- [41:27]
Bill Simmons
He might be.
- [41:29]
Danny Kelly
Pittman broke his back last year and he's like, yeah, I don't trust him. It's hard to trust him. Josh Downs, I think is a really good player, but who knows what's going on with this quarterback situation? I think that they're going to scheme up like three to four plays a game for Tyler Orman and that's like his floor, you know, in the sense where you're doing screens, RPOs, maybe even get him in the Backfield a little bit. He does. He did that a ton actually at Penn State. I don't know if they'll do that in the NFL when you have Jonathan Taylor back there too. But you know, get, get creative with, with what he can bring as a run after catch guy and he's kind of in that. I don't think he's the level of, you know, like player that George Kittle is clearly at this point in his career, but he brings they run after catch ability. I think that's like reminiscent of Kittle where he's just trucking dudes, jumping over him, stiff arming them, things like that.
- [42:18]
Bill Simmons
I love them in the draft. Like he was too high for the Pats to take it for, but if they had traded back a couple spots and taken him, I wouldn't have been furious about it. I couldn't believe he fell to 14. I just. There's no way he was not one of the best 13 guys in the draft. So we'll see. And the level and I don't know, that seemed to be more of a higher ceiling pick. But Warren seems really, really good to me. What was that? You or me? Who's up? You.
- [42:44]
Danny Kelly
That was you.
- [42:45]
Bill Simmons
Oh, you're up. Let's see. I think in my big one for last.
- [42:50]
Danny Kelly
I feel very torn on this. So I'm going to just, I'm just going to send it. I'm buying the Jags revival with Liam. Liam Cohen.
- [43:00]
Bill Simmons
How can you do this?
- [43:04]
Danny Kelly
There's no, there's absolutely no evidence to support the fact that they'll be bad again.
- [43:09]
Spike Lee
Right?
- [43:10]
Danny Kelly
No, I mean obviously this goes against my, my better judgment. We do this every year I feel like, but I don't know. The Travis Hunter being able to play on both sides of the ball, I think that will make an impact. I don't know if he's going to be, you know, a massive, massive impact year one on both sides of the ball. I think the Liam Cohen thing is really what I'm excited about the most though, like getting a coherent offense, you know, getting Trevor Lawrence kind of into his groove, hopefully a little bit where he's not, you know, making these just ill advised throws and doing the kinds of things that he's done the last.
- [43:40]
Bill Simmons
Couple of years, doing so well.
- [43:42]
Danny Kelly
The, the, the other thing here that I will say, and I think this does matter, is they have the sixth easiest schedule for Warren Sharp. So they're in a bad division with a good play calling. New head coach. Get that bump. Brian Thomas Jr. Explosive playmaker. Travis Hunter, another explosive playmaker. God, why am I doing this? I don't know why I'm doing this, but I am.
- [44:03]
Bill Simmons
You should know since you had a shitty offensive line last year on your favorite team, the Seattle Seahawks.
- [44:09]
Danny Kelly
Hey, they won 10 games.
- [44:10]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, but you had a way better all around team like this, their line's going to be the combo of the offensive line and Lawrence. Why? Why am I going to feel good about that? Not to mention, do you. The Travis at TN and who's the other dude? Bigsby. Like they still haven't figured that out. People are trying to get us to get the Travis comeback year. No thanks. Had him last year for like 30 bucks. The only case for them. Because I did. Look at this. Cause it's like I'm. And I'm going to spend the next week trying to figure out who I settle on here for the out of nowhere team. Last year I had Pittsburgh and I nailed it. Everyone was off Pittsburgh. Everyone had them third place and 500 team. And I was trying to figure out who is the out of nowhere playoff team because we have all the ones people always talk about. Could Jacksonville be the team? The case would be the first three weeks where they're home for the Panthers. They're at Cincinnati, who always starts out slow. And then like an upset against Houston. And now they're playing at San Francisco in week four. McCaffrey's already hurt and now they're. Now it's like, now Jaguars are four and oh my God, Travis Hunter. What a trade. And so I was trying to play it out in my head and I just. I can't get there. But they have their third place schedule, which means they get the Jets, Bengals and Panthers, which I don't mind, but they do have to play the AFC west and then the NFC west, who we'll see if they're any good. But I can't quite get there with Lawrence. Lawrence to me is like, you're going to have to shock me and prove that you're actually good again. But I don't know. I respect the hype, so I'm buying it. You're selling it. Can we just do McCaffrey quick? Because it's a blind sell for me. People are trying to hype me back. Don't be surprised if he's the number one fantasy guy again. Guess what? I'm going to be surprised. The guys cannot stay in the field. He's older and I just don't see it. And I think it's the worst kind of fantasy guy to Have. Because you're spending. You're not spending $60 anymore, but you're still in the 40s, and maybe you're even in a bidding war with your drunk buddy. And now I'm up to 49, and I really want him. And now, fuck, now I'm paying 50. And then two weeks in, it's like I'm having. I have my Achilles. Starting to feel tight now. And I got the red flag. Oh, no. McCaffrey has the red flag. What happened? Oh, tendinitis. Oh, no. He's going to play. Nope, he's not playing. Oh, he's out. Well, he's going to go to see a specialist. I'm out. I'm not doing it. No, thank you.
- [46:48]
Danny Kelly
He's going to Germany to do some stuff.
- [46:50]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I'm out. I'm out. We've all been there with him, and no, thank you anymore.
- [46:55]
Danny Kelly
I think the only argument, the counter to that is when he's on the field, he has been the best.
- [47:01]
Bill Simmons
You feel great.
- [47:01]
Danny Kelly
He's the best fantasy player of this generation.
- [47:04]
Spike Lee
Right.
- [47:05]
Bill Simmons
But this begs the question, is it better to not have that at all in your life or to have tasted it and then it gets pulled away when they get red flagged and you're like, oh, man, I had those three weeks of McCaffrey and it was so great. I'd almost rather not know what it feels like.
- [47:22]
Danny Kelly
I totally understand what you're saying, though. I think it's. It's tough ultimately. You don't want to. You're not trying to get seventh place in your league. You're trying to get first place.
- [47:30]
Bill Simmons
And so this was your. This was your HN last year. This is your. This was your theory on this. Go for the gusto.
- [47:39]
Danny Kelly
Yeah. And. But I will say McCaffrey and Shanahan lied to our faces last year about, like, what he was going to be and which obviously, whatever. That's their prerogative. But from a fantasy point of view, it's easier to do this when coaches are. And players are honest about kind of like, where they are. So I don't trust that team. And then the hard, the worst part, and this is something I experience, is trying to figure out the handcuff situation to McCaffrey. Like, with a lot of players, it's like, oh, if I get this guy, I'll just grab his backup, and then that way I'm insured against this injury or whatever. I could still get this team's run game.
- [48:17]
Bill Simmons
But now you're spending $7 on his backup.
- [48:20]
Danny Kelly
Yeah, but the end. The 49ers are the most cursed team I've ever seen in my life when it comes to running back injuries. Every one of their running backs just constantly gets hurt. So you're like playing whack a mole, trying to figure out who to play week in and week out. Is it Isaac Garendo? Is it Jordan James? Is it, you know, Jeff Wilson, who. I think they just resigned. It's like, I just. And then who knows what Shanahan's. Who's going to be in Shanahan's doghouse this week? So I think it's. It's, you know, obviously the upside of. Of hitting on McCaffrey and getting the. You know, he's literally like an RB1 and a wide receiver, two or three in one spot in your roster, which is immensely valuable. So the upside is. Is worth. I think, worth betting on, but it's going to be a miserable experience for you. You're going to probably, you know, every time a little red cross is next to his name on the app, it's just going to stress you out. So it just depends on how much risk you want to take on.
- [49:13]
Bill Simmons
The problem is there's no value for it because you're overpaying right now, being worried about the red flag, which is the worst place to be in fantasy. Let's do a couple quick ones. But before we do that, I just want to say Shador is off the table.
- [49:30]
Danny Kelly
Okay. We're not talking about it or what.
- [49:35]
Bill Simmons
Who knows? I'm rooting for it. It would be fun if the Browns had a good qb, but people going nuts about Week one preseason, like, it's fine just to not have an opinion. Sometimes it's like, that's cool. He wasn't a disaster.
- [49:49]
Danny Kelly
Right?
- [49:49]
Bill Simmons
Okay. It doesn't mean anything. You know, I don't know. I mean, I. I hope it happens for him. I'm in the camp of. I thought he should have gone in the first two rounds.
- [50:00]
Danny Kelly
Right.
- [50:00]
Bill Simmons
It's hard for me to believe he's not a starter. It's hard for me to believe New Orleans couldn't have used him. But a lot of. I'm not. I'm not going to be like, well, see what he did in Week one preseason, like, just stop.
- [50:11]
Danny Kelly
Yeah. Also, it's funny because the only reason he started that game is several.
- [50:15]
Bill Simmons
Three guys got hurt. Right. It was just like, man, so what's your next one?
- [50:21]
Danny Kelly
I actually just want to get your take on this. I'm selling the Aaron Rodgers, Steelers thing, but I want to know what you think about it.
- [50:27]
Bill Simmons
Oh, not only have I sold it, I knocked down the house. Not only did I sell the house, I knocked it down for the new owner. I couldn't be more out. She'll made the key point. Brady's the only 1 over 42 who even played 10 games. I thought Rogers sucked last year. I don't think he wants to get hit anymore. I don't love their offensive line. I don't think the team. I'm very nervous about that team in general. And I think it would be shocking if he was good in the Steelers with all the evidence we have following football for him, for what we saw last year, to him all of a sudden being good for the Steelers and them going 12 and 5. Like, honestly, what are the odds in that? Like 7 to 1, 8 to 1. He's going to be good. He's going to like getting hit again. Last year was an aberration.
- [51:16]
Danny Kelly
There. There are. I will say there's like. And I'm completely with you on this, but there. There are. I've seen stories and I've listened and I've heard a few on podcasts. Like, Aaron Rodgers kind of feels like a different guy this year. You know, he's come in there and like, his. All his teammates love him, all this stuff, and I'm just like, I don't know.
- [51:34]
Bill Simmons
It's over. He's. He's 42. It's over. Even if you lose like a split second of your reaction time on stuff combined with that. His. The lower half of his body had this traumatic injury, that would be one thing if it's 27, but, you know, he's got a repaired Achilles. He's 42. He's like the biggest guy in the world.
- [51:53]
Danny Kelly
Him and DK Metcalf is a very funny combo, too. Like, from a schematic and stylistic.
- [51:59]
Bill Simmons
What about the first time he says something stupid?
- [52:02]
Spike Lee
Or Arthur Smith?
- [52:03]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I just think so many ways to go wrong. All right, I'll give you my last one.
- [52:07]
Spike Lee
All right.
- [52:09]
Bill Simmons
I've already talked about that multiple times on the pod. To my horror, I was listening to the Ringer Gambling show, excellent Ex, the excellent East Coast Bias show, as they did the AFC west. And all three of them got excited about this team. And it feels like there's too many people on the bandwagon. I'm getting nervous. But the Broncos were my favorite team. I actually think they're underrated. I think they are a live chance for them to buy that, to win the AFC West. I just think they're going to be really good. I think they're an actual contender. I really think that. And now it feels like people are coming on the bandwagon because nobody can figure out another. Another team that's like, this year is basically Lions of like, oh, this team was good last year. Now they're going to be this. And they're the most obvious candidate. Then Slater goes down for the Chargers and you're like, well, there's another reason the Broncos are going to be better than Chargers. And now I'm worried it looks too obvious. So I'm not selling the hype right. I just wish that. I wish I could calm down the hype. I wish I could create like a fake news story to get people off the scent. Like Bo Nix might, might, might not be able to start the season. Mystery injury. Like, I almost want to throw people off the scent.
- [53:21]
Danny Kelly
I. Yeah, I've the contrarian in me that like the, the Broncos hype. I'm. That is like maybe the top one where I'm just like the contrarian in me.
- [53:29]
Bill Simmons
For whatever reason, everybody just want to zag it.
- [53:31]
Danny Kelly
Yeah. 100. Like, everybody loves the Broncos and I have kind of a long running bit of. I'm anti Sean Payton, but that's like fantasy wise. Like, he's actually a good, He's a good real life coach. He just annoys me in fantasy because he, you know, platoons every position, and it's really hard to guess, like, whoever he's going to like that week. But I don't know, to me, it's just, you know, we saw CJ Stroud have a huge slump in his second year as teams start to kind of figure out what your fastball is and some of the best things that you're doing. I don't think, you know, I'm not fading Knicks by any means, but I think there's a chance, like, he could be a little worse than he was as a rookie and that wouldn't be super surprising. Their defense, obviously, way harder schedule. Yeah, really hard schedule. Their defense, I mean, their defense is great, but with everything, you know, how healthy can they stay? Can they. Can they continue to do what they're doing up front? And then, you know, I think defense is harder to predict year in and year out. Like, it's less consistent year in and year out. So I don't know it. To me, I'm like, I don't have like a real argument against the Broncos, but the contrarian in me, it's just like that that's like the, the bells are going off. Like everybody loves the Broncos this year and so like that's just kind of my reaction to it.
- [54:42]
Bill Simmons
They check the most boxes I've seen for a leap team in a while including week one home Tennessee Titans, week two at the Colts, who are already a probably changed QBs.
- [54:55]
Danny Kelly
Right.
- [54:55]
Bill Simmons
Week three at the Chargers. Week four home Bengals Monday night and then week five at Eagles which could be a four. And oh against four. And oh like I'm already ready for it. I. So I like it too much. I want it to calm down. I need to like this is like a relationship in college. I want them to be mean to me for a day. So I don't like them as much.
- [55:16]
Spike Lee
Right.
- [55:16]
Danny Kelly
Your spidey sense is tingling right now. I think you're feeling the. You want a zag.
- [55:20]
Bill Simmons
Too many checks. Too many check marks. And I was trying to think what another zag team would be because we do this every year and that's what I'm going to try to figure out.
- [55:31]
Danny Kelly
Going to be bad. That will be good or the vice.
- [55:33]
Bill Simmons
Versa that there's always a team, there's always a team. Like it's going to be like the Giants. It's. I'm not saying it's going to be the Giants, but that's what I really want to figure out is like who is the team everyone thinks is going to be shitty. And it's going to. I'm telling you, they're going to make the playoffs. Last year was Washington, even the Patriots. I think people are expecting they're going to be pretty good. It's a team like the Panthers because I think there's cases for Falcons. It's like Panthers, Jags, Giants, the Titans. That would be like the Titans is a great one.
- [56:05]
Danny Kelly
The Titans is the one.
- [56:07]
Bill Simmons
Vegas, the jets, it's those kind of teams. One of them is going to make the playoffs. Just how the league goes. Not the Browns, not the Browns. I've crossed off the Browns and the Saints all over the place. Those are my two cross off already.
- [56:22]
Danny Kelly
Oh, I think you know what, I'm not like saying the Saints are going to win the division, but the Saints have been my surprisely surprisingly competent team because just everyone like for whatever reason again, it's a contrarian thing where everyone says the Saints are going to suck. Everyone thinks the Saints are. It's like a fact the Saints suck. And that's the way that we've talked about them this off season. And for whatever reason that just you know, it like Ignites my. My contrarian ness. And I just want like the Saints, for whatever reason, they always kind of figure out a way to be competitive, especially in that division. The quarterback situation is obviously very concerning. But, you know, I don't know, maybe Kellen Moore goes in there and they kind of just run this funky offense that people don't know what to do with and they eke out some wins.
- [57:08]
Bill Simmons
And I'm sure Kellen Moore is good. No, to me, like the QB coach. The QB coach combo, which is the easiest way to figure all this stuff out.
- [57:16]
Spike Lee
Right.
- [57:16]
Bill Simmons
They've got to be one of the lowest. Even the Browns. Because Stefanski is better than Kellen Moore. Yeah, even they might have a higher number.
- [57:24]
Danny Kelly
I'm not saying it makes any sense. It just. That's the team that I've been contrarian on because it just feels like everyone is stating as a fact that the Saints are awful.
- [57:33]
Bill Simmons
Well, there's one thing I have noticed. The people covering the team are talking about how it's way more professional this year. Like they are. We are going from Dennis Allen and whoever the guy was that Cam Jordan annihilated on the podcast. You see that Something about the defensive line coach. It was the worst coach he's ever.
- [57:50]
Danny Kelly
Oh my gosh. No, I didn't see that.
- [57:52]
Bill Simmons
But anyway, they're over is five and a half and it's already plus one, 25. The last thing. And then we'll go because I already kept you a half hour longer than I thought we were going to go. I think Seattle is in the mix for. I didn't realize that they were going to be good because you think last year they hit their draft a year ago, as you know.
- [58:12]
Danny Kelly
Yeah.
- [58:13]
Bill Simmons
The reasons people are off the scent this year, basically, like they downgraded at receiver and they change QBs. You could argue Darnold's better than Geno Smith. In fact, I'll make the argument right now it's year two. McDonald, they had another good draft and they're in a division that I'm not sure anyone in the division is good because this Matthew Stafford. Who Matthew Stafford wasn't that good for most of the season last year and then got better as it went along and then was really good in the playoff game. But for the entirety of the season, like, we were wondering what was going on with him. The Niners, who knows? I don't like Arizona at all. And could Seattle just be like, oh, shit, I guess it's Seattle. Their odds are they're plus 550 for the division. That's crazy. Nobody should have odds like that in that division.
- [59:01]
Danny Kelly
I mean, they almost won the division last year.
- [59:03]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [59:04]
Danny Kelly
So I think logically and on paper, I would say they downgraded going from Geno Smith and DK Metcalf to Sam Darnold. And no question, however, the scheme, the change in scheme is like the big X factor for the Seahawks this year. It could be a force multiplier for them on offense because they're going from what was one of the past heaviest offenses in the NFL last year in terms of expected pass rate to I'm sure they're going to run the hell out of the ball this year. Like, that's why they brought Clint Kubiak in this wide zone offense. I think in theory it fits Kenneth Walker really well. It could help their offensive line start to get some continuity in terms of like they. They drafted Gray's Able, who's gotten rave reviews out of training camp and he looked good in this first preseason game. Looks like Abraham Lucas, their right tackle, is going to be right now. He's like looking like he will be healthy and able to start Charles. Charles Cross can be a good left tackle. I think there's some pieces there that they're working with that could emerge on the offensive line to make it a not bottom five unit, which is kind of what they've been the last few years.
- [60:08]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. And that too is a minus one before the season, but I might take the minus one off.
- [60:12]
Danny Kelly
Yeah.
- [60:12]
Bill Simmons
Because the offensive line people seem to think it might be actually fairly competent.
- [60:17]
Danny Kelly
It's like a scheme thing. Can the scheme hide some of the rewards that they had last year in terms of like, maybe this just works better where they're. They're attacking, running the football, you know, all that stuff. And then defensively, you know, there's a p. I'm trying hard not to like, buy too much into the hype because this is another one that's gotten tons of press around where I live. It's like the Seahawks could have a top five defense. Like a lot of people. A lot of smart people who know what they're talking about are looking at this scheme with Mike McDonald and some of the defense, some of the talent they've amassed on defense. It's a.
- [60:49]
Bill Simmons
Well, you have two big motherfuckers in the middle.
- [60:51]
Danny Kelly
Yeah.
- [60:52]
Bill Simmons
That. You know, maybe five teams have two guys like that.
- [60:56]
Danny Kelly
I mean, Leonard Williams was one of the most unsung elite players I think last year on defense. And then Byron Murphy, they drafted last year in the first round, and I think he had a good rookie season. Could have a really good, you know, second season.
- [61:09]
Bill Simmons
He got hurt and he played hurt.
- [61:13]
Danny Kelly
I think so. Yeah. And he was one of my favorite players coming in.
- [61:17]
Bill Simmons
I like him.
- [61:17]
Danny Kelly
I can't.
- [61:18]
Bill Simmons
I think. I think the Seattle defense and the Pats defense are very similar for me in that I actually think the ceiling of each defense could be top five.
- [61:26]
Danny Kelly
Yeah.
- [61:27]
Bill Simmons
Especially because your secondary is really good.
- [61:29]
Danny Kelly
Yeah. I mean, they have so much talent in their secondary. Devin Witherspoon, another draft pick from a couple years ago. So I don't know. They have the pieces. I think, like, you could make an argument certainly this year. The other one I wanted to bring up was Torrey Horton. This is like too much of a deep cut, but their fifth round receiver is another one of those guys that's in the category of just making two or two or three big plays every day in practice.
- [61:51]
Bill Simmons
You got to send me some of the quotes.
- [61:52]
Danny Kelly
Let me keep hearing everything about else.
- [61:54]
Bill Simmons
Sleuth it. Tonight, I want to find for myself.
- [61:57]
Danny Kelly
Look up Tori Horton. Who. And look, I'm obviously in the Seahawks text thread, you know, streets where it's people really into the Seahawks, but, I mean, I got so many messages and texts about Torrey Horton when they drafted him. When the Seahawks drafted him. They're like, this guy is so much better than a fifth rounder. You're going to love this guy. He was my favorite player at Colorado State. You know, it's. I got a ton of people telling me this, like. Like, you're going to love this guy. And then everything that we've seen since then is like, he's been really good at practice. He had a couple big catches in this last game, in the preseason game. So I don't know. Again, this is like, way too deep cut for probably the national side of things, but people are really excited about Tori Horton here in Seahawks land.
- [62:39]
Bill Simmons
Paths. Excitement. Seattle excitement. We're back. Danny Kelly. Thanks for hyping it up with me. Good to see you. And don't forget ringer fantasy. So what. When's the big. We're doing our draft on August 25th.
- [62:52]
Danny Kelly
Yeah, it's in a couple weeks here.
- [62:54]
Bill Simmons
Let's see. Yeah, that's. We're less than two weeks.
- [62:56]
Danny Kelly
August 25th.
- [62:57]
Bill Simmons
All right.
- [62:58]
Danny Kelly
I'm going to be in LA soon.
- [62:59]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I'll see you in la.
- [63:00]
Spike Lee
All right.
- [63:00]
Bill Simmons
Thanks, Danny Kelly.
- [63:01]
Danny Kelly
Thank you.
- [63:03]
Spike Lee
Boston, New York. New York, Boston. All right, let's go. Also, I'd like to say thank you for having me on and let's have some fun.
- [63:11]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, you do the intro for me. I don't even do the. I wore my Celtic shirt. We're a little wounded these days. Well, you made this movie. You put like 17 slanderous Boston things in there. And maybe 15.
- [63:24]
Spike Lee
There wasn't that many.
- [63:26]
Bill Simmons
Nine. There's a Rick Fox took a Larry Bird shot. He played with Larry Bird.
- [63:32]
Spike Lee
Also like to say quick story.
- [63:34]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [63:34]
Spike Lee
You know, I've done several commercials for. And one of these spots. Yeah, it's Larry bird.
- [63:44]
Bill Simmons
Which one? McDonald's.
- [63:45]
Spike Lee
I do with Sam and Magic, you know, and Charles.
- [63:48]
Bill Simmons
Oh, the bank ones. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [63:50]
Spike Lee
And so I was really scared. Larry Bird.
- [63:55]
Bill Simmons
I mean, if you saw any of the movies from the 80s, she's gotta have it.
- [63:59]
Spike Lee
John Savage.
- [64:00]
Bill Simmons
John Savage. It's a two minute scene.
- [64:02]
Spike Lee
The gentifier he's wearing. So I was really scared. I knocked on the door, I said, who is it? I said, spike, come, come in, come on in, Spike, sit down, sit down. And I. Because I mean we have a commercial ghetto. I don't know this. So he says, spike, look. Well good. That means so much to me because I never anything. I love Larry Bird, but the thing for me was that he was positioned in the press as being the great white hope.
- [64:33]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [64:33]
Spike Lee
And Larry, that wasn't him. He just wanted to bust your ass.
- [64:36]
Bill Simmons
Right?
- [64:37]
Spike Lee
So he didn't know all this. I mean, I mean, he knew, but he wasn't. All this mythology was put up behind him. So that's why I was talking about where nothing to do with Larry Bird, you know what I'm saying?
- [64:47]
Bill Simmons
We tried to hit that in the Celtics documentary we did for HBO about. He's positioned as this great white hope. But meanwhile he's way more talented than that. And he always wanted. And he wanted no part of it at all.
- [64:58]
Spike Lee
Yes, look, I got number love for Larry. I mean he. He just wanted to bust your ass. And that's wasn't his fault he was put in that position. Yeah, I remember like going to Old Garden with the live. Bird was at the Boston Garden at 6am and took 10,000 shots. You know, like. And like we come out of the womb, but dunk it right. No hard work, no expertise, you know. But anyway, how you doing?
- [65:28]
Bill Simmons
I want to talk basketball first and then go into movies because I.
- [65:31]
Spike Lee
This is our year.
- [65:32]
Bill Simmons
Well, I haven't seen you. The last time we did a pod was pre Covid at our two studios ago. And then.
- [65:38]
Spike Lee
Hey, you got a setup here?
- [65:39]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, now I got. Now I brought you in and. But I haven't seen you since. The Knicks got good again, and then we had a little passing of the torch. They beat the Celtics. Did you go to all. You weren't you promoting a movie at some point during that series, Right?
- [65:54]
Spike Lee
Nah, I just didn't go to Boston.
- [65:56]
Bill Simmons
You didn't go to Boston. You won't go to Boston.
- [66:01]
Spike Lee
You know, me and coach, really good friends. He came.
- [66:04]
Bill Simmons
Okay.
- [66:04]
Spike Lee
He came to my office.
- [66:06]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [66:06]
Spike Lee
There's a picture Instagram you use, you know, in front of my. I'm pointing to him. He's pointing at me. We got the Knick team behind on the front of my office. But I love him as a coach, and I like to say this. A couple weeks ago, I was invited to a mama's birthday party, a mama's vineyard. And Jason was there.
- [66:32]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [66:32]
Spike Lee
So I just gave him a hug and said, you know, wish speed. I don't want to see nobody get hurt.
- [66:37]
Bill Simmons
Were you at that game? You were right.
- [66:39]
Spike Lee
Yeah.
- [66:40]
Bill Simmons
Did you know right away?
- [66:42]
Spike Lee
I knew it was bad.
- [66:43]
Bill Simmons
Pretty close to where you were sitting.
- [66:45]
Spike Lee
Yeah. I mean, I knew it was bad. Also Halliburton, you know, and.
- [66:50]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [66:51]
Spike Lee
Dame. You know, they all wear the number zero. You know that.
- [66:55]
Bill Simmons
I know. I don't. I don't know if that's a coincidence or something similar.
- [66:59]
Spike Lee
I saw Jason. I said. I laid it down. You know what it was? He said, are you gonna wear numbers, Joey? So, yes. He says he's gonna keep it.
- [67:08]
Bill Simmons
I'm trying to figure out why all these young guys are getting hurt. Because the generation, they're not wearing high tops. Well, you think that's it? Cause I've heard the high tops theory. That's definitely one of them. I also feel like there's way more running in basketball now than there used to be with the three point line. Well, a lot of, like, sprinting out, trying to hedge over flying over this way.
- [67:26]
Spike Lee
I just think that there's a reason why players wore Chucks.
- [67:32]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [67:33]
Spike Lee
Converse.
- [67:34]
Bill Simmons
Well, they would just have knee injuries back then. Now it's like, it seems like everything's moved toward the feet and the ankles.
- [67:39]
Spike Lee
Somebody should do a study because.
- [67:42]
Bill Simmons
This.
- [67:42]
Spike Lee
Seems like a wave of this type of injury. And when you get that, you're out for a year.
- [67:48]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Well, the Tatum thing was interesting because he gets hurt. He's in New York. The best Achilles doctor is in New York. He's on the operating table. Ten hours later, the operation was in New York. Yeah. And they were saying, like, that actually might have been good for him. That he was able to get it because that's what Kobe did, too. And Kobe actually came back pretty fast.
- [68:07]
Spike Lee
But then had a different Kobe and you win. So let's push him.
- [68:11]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, yeah, Put him to the side. But that's Tatum's work ethic. Idol, though, I haven't seen you since Kobe died either. You were actually, like, legit friends with him because.
- [68:21]
Spike Lee
Well, we weren't great friends, but I.
- [68:22]
Bill Simmons
Knew you did something.
- [68:24]
Spike Lee
I had to be there. And we did this thing called Kobe doing work.
- [68:28]
Bill Simmons
I remember at ESPN and listen to this, though.
- [68:31]
Spike Lee
So we didn't want to put it out till he could do a commentary and look down the scout, he said, spike, let's do it after we kick the Knicks ass. And that's the game. We set the record for the Garden. I had the stat sheet. He sized his spike. This shit was all your fault.
- [68:53]
Bill Simmons
Is that story true that he almost backed out at the 11th hour of Kobe doing work the day of the game, and you had to go to the house and convince him to do it? I always heard, like an urban legend. I never knew what was true and wasn't true.
- [69:04]
Spike Lee
We were ready, and for some reason he says, I'm not doing it.
- [69:09]
Bill Simmons
And you had the 24 cameras or whatever it was. You're ready to go.
- [69:13]
Spike Lee
I was freaking out and then labeling him something. He gave me, like, the thumbs up. That was close.
- [69:23]
Bill Simmons
You think he was, like, just testing you? I don't know.
- [69:26]
Spike Lee
But it didn't matter what it was. It will be. It would not be what intended if. Oh, this. What do you got? 50 anniversary of George. I know, I know, but I have a house in Marsville. Anyway, thank God that Kobe said gave me the thumbs up and we did it.
- [69:51]
Bill Simmons
You know, everyone talks about the goat stuff and basketballs against basketball players, and yet with directors and actors, we don't do it that way. It's just like you basically either make some list.
- [70:01]
Spike Lee
I like, I like. We don't do it like that way.
- [70:02]
Bill Simmons
I think it's better. And I'm partially probably responsible for the goat, the rank. Like, I've certainly. I wrote a 700. Well, I definitely was involved, but with actors and with directors, it's more like you move into this kind of area, but nobody cares about the ranking of the area. It's more like you kind of know who's there and who's not.
- [70:22]
Spike Lee
I think there's. I don't know what the word is, but I'm so tired of this LeBron, this goat thing that's going on Forever. And then you say this welcome. Kareem's not in there. It's just, I don't, I don't think it's. What's the purpose? If you think LeBron is, or you think Michael is, you think Wilt or whoever, you, you know, Kareem good. But why do we have to spend time like discussing this?
- [70:58]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. And plus, people are going to have their opinion on it. They're not going to change.
- [71:01]
Spike Lee
Here's the thing. I'm going to tell you this, though. This is not new. I grew up in Brooklyn, so there was always a Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle thing.
- [71:11]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [71:12]
Spike Lee
So it's not new, but it's just with the Internet just, it's just, it's out of control for me. For me.
- [71:18]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, we've had good ones over the years. Manny versus Brady was good.
- [71:22]
Spike Lee
Mike don't give a fuck about that. He said, what are you talking about? I mean, LeBron probably say the same thing. What, what is the good that comes out of that? I'm asking you.
- [71:33]
Bill Simmons
Well, I think LeBron probably cares a little bit more because after Last Dance, Last Dance comes out. It's during COVID There's no sports. It's like this. Everybody watched that five week MJ extravaganza. Everybody's in it. There's this whole generation of people who didn't know how good it is. And a lot of people.
- [71:53]
Spike Lee
Let's not talk about Scottie Pippen, you know.
- [71:56]
Bill Simmons
I know, but the thing is he's becomes a hero at the end of that. Scottie Pippen, because that goes into game six when he's playing with the bad back and Jordan, you know, it is what it is.
- [72:06]
Spike Lee
What's the guy that. Phil Jackson, when he ran the play for KU coach.
- [72:11]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, well, but that's like, that's a part of Scotty's legacy, unfortunately. That and the migraine, that's just how it goes. You know, Ewing has the finger roll and it doesn't go in, but that becomes part of his legacy.
- [72:22]
Spike Lee
Why you bring a Nick into it and don't talk about game seven against Houston.
- [72:27]
Bill Simmons
Well, you. Did you go to game one Pacers this year, The Halliburton, the Neesmith hitting threes and then Halliburton. And so you were at that game, right?
- [72:38]
Spike Lee
Yeah. This is the Garden. Right.
- [72:39]
Bill Simmons
So that game was on recently and I just started watching it and I was like, I just forget what happened. And I just couldn't believe. I couldn't believe it as it was happening. It's actually three Times crazier than I thought it was. So, in person, you must have been going nuts.
- [72:55]
Spike Lee
Let me ask, were you at the two games, one and two, where the Knicks were behind 20 points, both games against the Celtics? Were you there? Oh, you missed that one, huh? You missed those two, huh?
- [73:04]
Bill Simmons
I was fortunately on the west coast up by 20. I know. That was. I felt like we blew it in those games because of the style we were playing. The Indiana thing. Nisman's making fallaway threes. They're making some of the craziest shots, and they're all in a row. And it wasn't even like the Knicks did anything that bad. I think they missed, like, two shots. They missed a free throw, but for the most part. And he's just making like, literally everything for 10 minutes.
- [73:33]
Spike Lee
So what are we talking about? The movie?
- [73:36]
Bill Simmons
Well, did you feel like that was a fluke or did you feel like. Cause you guys were really good.
- [73:40]
Spike Lee
Here's the thing, though. I'm going to leave it at this. The Knicks led the league. That. The starting five of the Knicks led the league in minutes. Yeah, I'll use it, though. Oh, so you were a supporter of what?
- [73:53]
Bill Simmons
Of the change?
- [73:54]
Spike Lee
No, look, I got nothing but respect for my brother Tibbs.
- [73:58]
Bill Simmons
So why'd you say the minutes thing?
- [74:00]
Spike Lee
It's a tough business.
- [74:02]
Bill Simmons
Is that the closest you felt like the Knicks were to winning a title since 94 was that team the best team last 30 years?
- [74:10]
Spike Lee
Look, we're up three, two, going to Houston for games six and seven.
- [74:14]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, it's 94.
- [74:16]
Spike Lee
Yeah, okay, but this is our year. I'm not even talking about the pass. This is the year we're coming out of the East.
- [74:24]
Bill Simmons
Well, it's lined up because you got you guys in Cleveland.
- [74:27]
Spike Lee
We got a bench, too now you.
- [74:28]
Bill Simmons
Got Giannis, and basically he's the best player in the conference, but doesn't have the best team. My team's not going to be there this year. Probably. Orlando's a year away this year off. It's a write off, as you could tell by the two trades we made. Poor Zingus and Holiday for nothing.
- [74:45]
Spike Lee
Plus, you got that. Were you in the third tier or something like that?
- [74:48]
Bill Simmons
We got out of that.
- [74:50]
Spike Lee
Got out of it.
- [74:50]
Bill Simmons
Thank God they don't have that for movies. Second apron, Third apron. Actually, that might be good for movies. Maybe we'd start making more original movies and less superhero movies.
- [74:59]
Spike Lee
Could be, could be, could be.
- [75:00]
Bill Simmons
Although that's starting to change now. I feel like this has been a nice renaissance year for movies. With original, original voices. There's been original IP movies that have actually, people have gone to the theater to see. You guys are back. Directors are back from where now you feeling it though.
- [75:24]
Spike Lee
I have to think about what you just said. But there's a strange thing between studio films and streaming. You know, they're still kind of wonky. So, you know, everybody's trying to. Trying to figure it out.
- [75:41]
Bill Simmons
When you say strange, what does that mean? You mean trying to get people to actually see a movie in a theater versus being home?
- [75:46]
Spike Lee
It's people with the price of tickets and, you know, some other thing. They rather just stay home. And I think that the stay home thing, as you stated, as you talk about COVID you know, there's still. Covid is not over as far as mentality, I think, you know, and there's just a thing where I'm gonna stay home. I got a big ass TV on the wall.
- [76:13]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [76:14]
Spike Lee
I don't have to drive. I don't get in a sub. I'm just gonna sit home.
- [76:17]
Bill Simmons
I don't have people next to me in my seat on their phone during the movie.
- [76:21]
Spike Lee
That drives me crazy.
- [76:22]
Bill Simmons
I don't have to see somebody's phone light during a big scene.
- [76:25]
Spike Lee
Exactly. But even with that, there's nothing. I remember as a kid waiting three hours in line to see the Exorcist or Alien or Jaws. The fifth anniversary, and there's nothing. I mean, when the film is hidden and the theater's packed, it's wonderful.
- [76:44]
Bill Simmons
It's so funny. Like doing. We do that movie podcast, the Rewatchables, and there's movies where they weren't number one until like the sixth week. Like these slow builds that just now it's completely different. You have to hit in the first place.
- [76:56]
Danny Kelly
First weekend.
- [76:57]
Spike Lee
Yeah, first weekend.
- [76:58]
Bill Simmons
And I think that's it. I'm way more optimistic than I was a couple years ago because I'm with you. I thought Covid screwed everything up. I thought it changed habits. Well, but beyond that, I'm just saying what's more important from movie standpoint now.
- [77:13]
Spike Lee
If you had a relative diet of Colby, you would just be talking.
- [77:15]
Bill Simmons
Well, but you know what I mean, though.
- [77:17]
Spike Lee
No, I don't.
- [77:17]
Bill Simmons
I'm saying like the, the structure of the movie business, how they were made, what the prices for them were, what the goal. Trying to get people into a theater. It felt like it shifted over the last five years and now it feels like it's a little more like the 2010.
- [77:31]
Spike Lee
Let's, let's do some of this I'm a cinephile. First of all, silent movies, when sound came.
- [77:39]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [77:40]
Spike Lee
Then when TV came, you know, it's going to kill the theater. So this, all this thing is like. Yeah, that's the word, my brother.
- [77:49]
Bill Simmons
So I think it's. I think the biggest thing is we just need. It's almost like basketball, where. Basketball. There'll be some years where there's like eight great players and there's other years where there's like 16. You have little classes, like you had your director class way back when of the up and comers. Then it shifts and right now it seems like we're in a good spot. There's a lot of good people right now.
- [78:08]
Spike Lee
Well, you gotta get in where you can fit in.
- [78:14]
Bill Simmons
What was your favorite movie you saw this year that wasn't yours?
- [78:23]
Spike Lee
Sinners. My brother Ryan, he did the damn thing. Let me tell a quick story. He called me up and he said, spike, do you happen to be in la? I said, yeah. Why? Well, we're going through the final thing of imax and if you can get here in an hour, you can see it. I'm rarely in la.
- [78:43]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [78:44]
Spike Lee
So it was a mistake. I was there and he took a chance calling me. So I'm there, I'm on the right, Ryan's in the center and his wonderful wife Cynzi is there. And me, I know they're not going to want to sit next to me in a movie again because I was acting like I was my court size seated guard and we were killing the Celtics. I was jumping up and down. I was like, my mom was more especially to see that musical sequence with.
- [79:15]
Bill Simmons
The genres and the eras.
- [79:16]
Spike Lee
Yeah, I mean, I was so happy. It was like I was, let's leave the Celtics outfit. I was just happy to be there and that he called me out of nowhere and then just took a chance. Maybe there's a chance Spike is in la. Cause this was like the final view of the IMAX part, the IMAX thing of the film. And that film was transforming. That film took me to another place. And I love movies. And when I see something that's great, it just puts me is list. My spirit and spinach to me was that film this year.
- [79:59]
Bill Simmons
I felt the same way. I've seen it four times because we did a rewatchables on it that's coming Monday. But it just. I walked out of the theater.
- [80:06]
Spike Lee
Has Ryan been a guest?
- [80:07]
Bill Simmons
Huh?
- [80:07]
Spike Lee
Has Ryan been a guest?
- [80:08]
Bill Simmons
No, no, no. We do, we do like people, fans of it, talking about it.
- [80:12]
Spike Lee
Well, you you need to get them.
- [80:13]
Bill Simmons
But I saw it on a Thursday before it had really come out. I had no idea.
- [80:17]
Spike Lee
Theater.
- [80:17]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, it was in la sometimes they premiered early and we. We walked out.
- [80:23]
Spike Lee
So you didn't know nothing, but you went there?
- [80:25]
Bill Simmons
No, I always. I did. Same thing with your movie. I don't want to know anything. The only thing I knew about your movie was it was a remake and that was it. I didn't want to know anything else. Well, you know what I mean. A reimagining.
- [80:35]
Spike Lee
Reimagining. Reimagining, not a remake.
- [80:37]
Bill Simmons
You know what I mean?
- [80:39]
Spike Lee
But that was always doesn't. Because you said that word, remake.
- [80:41]
Bill Simmons
But all I knew was MBJ and vampires and we were in the past and that's it. And it was just. It's just so original and so creative. And then the ending, when you just walk out of the theater, like, oh, my God, like, I don't want to spoil the ending for anybody who hasn't seen it, but to land the plane the way they did with that and the way they use the music. I thought it was such a great in theater experience, especially the way he used the IMAX and the cameras. It's really. And my guy, mpg.
- [81:11]
Spike Lee
Best film in the eight for me so far.
- [81:13]
Bill Simmons
But it's really great and it's made.
- [81:16]
Spike Lee
A ton of money.
- [81:18]
Bill Simmons
That's the thing. People will come out if the movie's good. So we've at least gone back to that because I think it felt like the studios were getting a little scared with, well, no, we gotta walk, gotta hold people's hand. And it's gotta be like, oh, I recognize the superhero now. It's like, is the movie good or not? And the word of mouth feels like it's bad.
- [81:36]
Spike Lee
Here's the thing.
- [81:36]
Bill Simmons
We saw it with weapons. People are going to see weapons because everyone's saying, did you see weapons? It's good.
- [81:42]
Spike Lee
Here's the thing, though. Even more than in the past, people worry about their jobs. So very few people in this industry are going to take a risk that might give them their walking papers, right? And as history is shown as cinema, the people that who have pushed the best films over this who knows how many years that they believed in the talent, they believed in the story. And they said, fuck it. When you get behind this film, push it out. Steven Spielbones got fired doing jobs, right? So when you have, look, this is a business though, but you have people in those off in those. Those spaces in the studio, some streamers that have respect to the artist.
- [82:41]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [82:42]
Spike Lee
And when they. When the whole world's telling them, don't do this film. And that. That comes to me personally, I'm getting choked up now because my brother, Tom Pollock, people told him, do not release do the right thing. Especially in the summer. Because, you know, black folks riot in the summertime and that. Here's the thing, though. People forget about this. He had just done the. Tom Pollard had just done the Last Temptation of Christ with Marty. He had death threats.
- [83:16]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [83:17]
Spike Lee
So he cannot be blamed not doing the right thing, knowing him and his family were targets for death.
- [83:26]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [83:26]
Spike Lee
But Tom Pollock not listen anybody. Those. Those haters. And he put do the right thing to the world because nobody coming out of can black folks going to riot. All this stuff which is never happened. And today it's in the canon of great films. So you gotta have people like that in the studios who are gonna champion work they believe in and not. And look, no one wants to get killed, you know. But Tom. Polly had people forget that he came out of the Last Temptation of Christ. He had death threats, not just him, to his family. And he believed in me. He believed in the film. And the rest is history, herstory.
- [84:20]
Bill Simmons
It's funny, that's basically the last 50 years of movies. You read all the books about, like. No, about the 70s, right? You have this huge director boom. And Coppola was one of the ones who was like, I don't need the studios. I want to fund my own stuff. And had One from the Heart, which almost bankrupted him. And so we had this little dance, right?
- [84:38]
Spike Lee
I went to see a film, One from the Heart. Opening day was St. Valentine's Day. Racing musical.
- [84:46]
Bill Simmons
Because you were still at NYU, right?
- [84:48]
Spike Lee
What year was that? 82. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, yeah, 82. I finished. Yeah. So.
- [84:58]
Bill Simmons
So you had this.
- [85:00]
Spike Lee
We go to this new film. Francis, he put all the money in that film, Right. Lost it, too.
- [85:07]
Bill Simmons
So it's always been this dance with. I want to trust the director. I don't want to trust him too much. No, I want to trust him. And you see it in tv, too, because all the greatest TV shows were done by one person, right? Sopranos, one guy. Succession, one guy. The Wire, two guys.
- [85:25]
Spike Lee
That's the thing. There's not many of those people around, though.
- [85:27]
Bill Simmons
Well, that's the thing. And that's what makes people not trust the actual artist. But I feel like it's happening more in movies. I think people are starting to understand, like, if I just bet on somebody like Coogler and he's Passionate about something. Even if he's only made four movies every day.
- [85:42]
Spike Lee
Everybody does. Let's talk about this though. Ryan took this film, the film, the script around town.
- [85:51]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [85:51]
Spike Lee
But no one wanted to make it because he wanted to own the rights in 25 years.
- [85:56]
Bill Simmons
Right. To get it back.
- [85:58]
Spike Lee
And PAM and Mike DeLuca, thank God they said okay at Warner Brothers.
- [86:05]
Bill Simmons
Great business deal. Cause they needed a hit and they've.
- [86:09]
Spike Lee
Had a string of hits since then. Yeah.
- [86:11]
Bill Simmons
And guess what? They have it for 25 years. He gets it back, everybody wins. He retired. I don't think that'll be a new model going forward, but I think for them.
- [86:18]
Spike Lee
I'm glad it happened, though.
- [86:20]
Bill Simmons
It's a little like NBA free agency, though. All you need is one team that really needs somebody and they're willing to pay it and that's it. But I mean for him now he can his next one, he could do whatever he wants.
- [86:30]
Spike Lee
Yeah, but you should thought you do whatever you want. Come on. Just based upon Black Panther, you would think.
- [86:36]
Bill Simmons
Did you ever. Do you ever have fuck you power with one of your, like, did you ever feel like I can make any movie I want and get a green lit or.
- [86:42]
Spike Lee
No, Never, never, never. I mean, I never made a film over $100 million till the last one, Inside man, which was 18 years ago. And I didn't even know it was 18 years ago since me and Denzel, I worked together until the journals told me that those 18 years ago, that's.
- [87:00]
Bill Simmons
The only thing, only research I did because I just wanted to talk to you and not feel like I was following some sort of. That was the only thing. I was like, how. When was the last time they worked together? When was Inside man, I was like 06. First of all, that's crazy. You haven't seen him. I made a movie with him since 06. That's your fault.
- [87:18]
Spike Lee
Come on.
- [87:18]
Bill Simmons
You guys should make a movie every 10 years. Come on. Look, you've only made five. I thought it was like 12. Coppola, Scorsese and Leo made seven.
- [87:31]
Spike Lee
Yeah, but that's not the same as Scorsese and De Niro and they've been 10. You know, that's not this for me.
- [87:39]
Bill Simmons
But you know what I mean.
- [87:40]
Spike Lee
I know, I know, but I feel.
- [87:41]
Bill Simmons
Like you could have made one.
- [87:43]
Spike Lee
Look at the great director, active, you know, you got Saint Lumet with Pacino. I don't like the politics, but John Ford and John Wayne, I think they have the record.
- [87:57]
Bill Simmons
They made like 21. Ford and Wayne, he was at least 20 then.
- [88:01]
Spike Lee
Yeah. How many Native Americans got killed?
- [88:03]
Bill Simmons
It was a long time ago.
- [88:06]
Spike Lee
Them savages. Them savages.
- [88:10]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Some of them are tough watches. But yeah, Scorsese and De Niro are probably from the last 50 years. Probably the ones people would think of first because they made 10. But they also made them in different decades. And they're classics for different ways.
- [88:24]
Spike Lee
Right.
- [88:24]
Bill Simmons
You could have snuck in for one like Equalizer or something just to keep the streak alive.
- [88:29]
Spike Lee
No.
- [88:30]
Bill Simmons
Stuck in for Equalizer.
- [88:31]
Spike Lee
Denton and I were not thinking about that. And I've come to believe as I get old in years.
- [88:37]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [88:38]
Spike Lee
That things happen when they happen. You know, I cannot force. Here's the thing. We. We saw each other in that interlude, you know, but we just didn't make a movie. You know, he has season tickets to the Lakers. Long and me have had it with the Knicks. And so we look at the schedules and when are the Knicks going to be in la. But now. But now it looks like they. The Knicks are in la, same trip. So you get. I get to see the Lakers and then they at the time get to see the Clippers.
- [89:10]
Bill Simmons
You know what's crazy about him?
- [89:13]
Spike Lee
Who?
- [89:13]
Bill Simmons
Denzel. So now you figure like he's a leading man really. Starting late 80s 1990 range. Right. So it's been 35 years. And usually when somebody is an A plus Lister in the face of movie poster at some point you kind of either have to move into the old guy roles or you move into like where Cruz is. Or he's basically just doing Mission Impossible and franchise things. And Denzel could still play these original characters where I still feel like he can kick somebody's ass if he has to and he can do all these other pieces. I know.
- [89:44]
Spike Lee
Don't give it away.
- [89:45]
Bill Simmons
I don't want to give it away, but I just can't believe he's kept that going all these years later. It's almost like watching LeBron in year 23. Like I don't understand how he's still doing this.
- [89:56]
Spike Lee
Here's the thing for me and I say this very respectful for me. I feel Denzel is the greatest of an actor. Now the escar says he's going to say De Niro. France is going to say Randall.
- [90:10]
Bill Simmons
This is back to our previous discussion though about. There's no answer but it's not. You just want to be mentioned.
- [90:15]
Spike Lee
It's not as vicious as LeBron Michael.
- [90:21]
Bill Simmons
But I think being mentioned as the.
- [90:24]
Spike Lee
Win celebrate for me the whole. Especially more in sports then I don't think people go around Saying, well, dinero was this. I mean, I think it just really has gone off the charts in sports for me.
- [90:38]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [90:40]
Spike Lee
And it's for me. Oh, there goes Dave the Butcher. But for me, it's a waste of time for me. And I know Michael thinks that way because we've talked about it, man. He's like, man, I got too many things to do. I got kids, you know, I gotta just.
- [91:05]
Bill Simmons
Plus, Michael knows who's the best, so he just need to talk about it.
- [91:07]
Spike Lee
And where was he born?
- [91:08]
Bill Simmons
He's like, I don't need to talk about it.
- [91:09]
Spike Lee
Where was Michael born?
- [91:11]
Bill Simmons
I thought it was North Carolina.
- [91:12]
Spike Lee
No, he's born in Brooklyn.
- [91:14]
Bill Simmons
Oh, there you go.
- [91:15]
Spike Lee
Cumberland Hospital. Mike Tyson was born there. And Bernard Albert King. Jesus Cumulative Hospital is the hospital. My neighborhood. I grew up in Fort Greene, Brooklyn. Mike, Michael Jordan, Mike Tyson, Bernard Albert King, all born in the same hospital in the People's Republic of Brooklyn, New York. Thank you very much.
- [91:33]
Bill Simmons
I was upset that you weren't defending Bernard's name a little more vociferously when Brunson had, like. And by the way, I love Brunson, but he had a couple good playoff games, and then it's like, greatest Knick ever. It's like, what?
- [91:45]
Spike Lee
Who?
- [91:46]
Bill Simmons
I didn't say that. That. No, you didn't say it. But that was out there. And it was like, did you guys. You guys got to go on YouTube and watch Bernard in 84 for like two months. Two months. Just killing everybody. Like, come on. Brunson was great.
- [91:59]
Spike Lee
He knows his teammate was there in Tennessee.
- [92:02]
Bill Simmons
Ernie Grunfeld.
- [92:03]
Spike Lee
Yeah.
- [92:04]
Bill Simmons
Burnt the Bernie Ernie Show.
- [92:05]
Spike Lee
Yeah. Both from Brooklyn.
- [92:06]
Bill Simmons
Here's the thing with Denzel, though. I think he's a one on one. Tell me how certain basketball players like this too. I just. Nobody can be the cool. You can play the role where you're the coolest guy in the movie, but he can also disappear into a character. He can be like the dad in an ordinary people type movie, but he could also be the guy in man on Fire. Like, he can.
- [92:29]
Spike Lee
Or Training Day.
- [92:30]
Bill Simmons
Or Training Day. Like, Hanks had that crazy run. Right. But Hank's. There's certain roles he just wouldn't do or he just. You wouldn't have bought him in. Denzel, I feel like is the most malleable of any A plus lister we've had. He can really literally put him in anything, even in this movie. Like, he's never played a character quite like the guy in this movie.
- [92:53]
Spike Lee
Yeah. I'm not gonna argue with you.
- [92:56]
Bill Simmons
That would Be my case for him.
- [92:58]
Spike Lee
I understand he's. It's a blessing. I've dealt with 5 mo better blues. Malcolm X. He got game inside man, which was 18 years ago and now this.
- [93:12]
Bill Simmons
The last time you were on my podcast, we told the story about when he got the first four points off Ray Allen.
- [93:18]
Spike Lee
If he got gave want to go.
- [93:21]
Bill Simmons
Well, but then I saw Denzel after. I can't. I think I. I did a podcast with him, I think after you. And he told his version of the story and he's clearly more proud of it than just about anything. He probably did.
- [93:34]
Spike Lee
Now I was saying, you know, Denzel played JV at Fordham. Yeah. And PJ Karisimo was his coach. So he's. You know, he loves sports. He's season ticket for the Lakers. I mean way I saw him on.
- [93:47]
Bill Simmons
Espn, you were there too. Killing Jerry Jones.
- [93:50]
Spike Lee
He. That was him. So the script. In the script, Ray Allen's supposed to win 11 nothing. Right.
- [94:02]
Bill Simmons
He's supposed to kill him.
- [94:04]
Spike Lee
Denzel's like that. I'm squarely the basket. And so Denzel starts throwing up some. Those throwing up shit is going in.
- [94:12]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [94:12]
Spike Lee
And we have to have a acting coach named Susan Batson. So Denzel's throwing these baskets and then she's yelling at him, what are you doing? What are you doing? And then Ray starts yelling at me. He says, time out. You say cut. He's saying with the detectable.
- [94:35]
Bill Simmons
Because he was like. Was he like embarrassed?
- [94:38]
Spike Lee
Yes.
- [94:39]
Bill Simmons
Well, Denzel was doing the old guy bang against you.
- [94:42]
Spike Lee
Here's the thing though. He's looking at me. I said, ray's look at me like, what the going on? I just. I just saw. I go like this. And then Ray said, oh. And here's the thing though. The point is that Denzel him makes some baskets. Made that scene better because I wrote it is 11 zip.
- [95:07]
Bill Simmons
It's one of the best sports. It's. It's one of my favorite favorite sports movies. And then you also go wide on it.
- [95:12]
Spike Lee
And then also you got.
- [95:13]
Bill Simmons
It feels like you're watching a game.
- [95:15]
Spike Lee
The great music election of Aaron Copeland.
- [95:16]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [95:17]
Spike Lee
For that too. And think about that. That film, the music film was Public Enemy and the great American poser Aaron Copeland. So then I mean his. His story since is amazing that he made the movie better.
- [95:33]
Bill Simmons
I wrote.
- [95:36]
Spike Lee
Ray's character when he live in zip. But D was like, nah, he didn't tell me he's gonna do that though. That's the thing though. He just did it. And the shots we would make them Were lucky. And they would go when they were going in.
- [95:53]
Bill Simmons
We did that movie a couple years ago for rewatchables, and it's aged in this awesome way. And it's stuff like. I didn't realize when I saw it in the theater, what 97. Some of the stuff that's in there is where basketball's going, which you saw pretty early. And I don't think I was just how fast things were moving for fame, for high school kids, the system, all the money that was in place.
- [96:21]
Spike Lee
My brother Rick Fox takes him down.
- [96:23]
Bill Simmons
Takes him to unc. Yeah. For the trip. Kill a couple porn stars there.
- [96:29]
Spike Lee
But you know what's funny though? Now, you know, I Sid the Garden, so when teens were visiting, would come in, they'd be going by me like, spike, man, you gave way too much.
- [96:39]
Bill Simmons
Right?
- [96:39]
Spike Lee
Seriously, Spike, you spilled the beans. Thought we had unlocked, man. You. You put out there for the world to see. They said, joking. Yo, Spike, man, you know, come on. You put too much in there. Too much in there.
- [96:50]
Bill Simmons
But you had. So you had. Marbury was your access into that world, right. Because you, you were friendly with him.
- [96:56]
Spike Lee
Not really. It's just Abraham Lincoln, that was a school. I mean, a lot of players. Oh, I thought.
- [97:01]
Bill Simmons
I thought Jesus was modeled a little.
- [97:03]
Spike Lee
Little bit.
- [97:03]
Bill Simmons
Is that an old West?
- [97:05]
Spike Lee
That's what Stefan said. But really, Coney island, historically, no Abraham Lincoln, that's the school for basketball. Okay. And of course Stephon went there. But it was not. It was not a biased.
- [97:18]
Bill Simmons
Something shifted over the course of the 90s as more money goes into basketball. College has already been ni.
- [97:23]
Spike Lee
What do you call it? Which one? Ni.
- [97:26]
Bill Simmons
Oh, the Nil. Well, now it's like, now you gotta make he got Game two and you just do an nil.
- [97:32]
Spike Lee
You ain't oh, so many people. First of all, you know, you want.
- [97:37]
Bill Simmons
You want 100 million dollar movie, do that.
- [97:38]
Spike Lee
First of all, you know, I. The Garden. So if anybody wants to say something, they come over, they be people at the foul line. The guys over here is a Spike.
- [97:51]
Bill Simmons
Oh, because they want to be in it.
- [97:53]
Spike Lee
Yeah. And then also Skyler. What's her name? Diggs. Yeah, she's.
- [97:57]
Danny Kelly
She's.
- [97:58]
Spike Lee
She's the first one that says Spike God. Dudes again. Sequel. But, but, but flip it. Make it a. Yeah, she said that she was the first one to say that.
- [98:04]
Bill Simmons
That's a great idea. Why wouldn't you do that?
- [98:07]
Spike Lee
I haven't done any remakes yet.
- [98:09]
Bill Simmons
It's not a remake. It's. It's a continuation.
- [98:13]
Danny Kelly
It's a reinterpretation.
- [98:14]
Spike Lee
Like Honduma Kurosawa.
- [98:17]
Bill Simmons
Either reimagining of him.
- [98:19]
Spike Lee
I use the word reinterpretation.
- [98:20]
Bill Simmons
Reinterpretation. This is a continuation. This is like Top Gun Maverick. You get Jesus. You get Ray Allen in it now. And it's his daughter. Come on.
- [98:32]
Spike Lee
Ray Allen said that a million is.
- [98:34]
Bill Simmons
Saying that every year he's available, he's ready to be in it. I actually think he's good in that movie. Like, when you think of the legacy, I mean, obviously, you know this. The best basketball player performance ever is Bernard King in Fast Break as Hustler. Like, ripping off lines. Like, he's the most natural actor we've ever had. You're not buying that one.
- [98:55]
Spike Lee
I'm not comparing. I mean, I haven't seen him in a long time, but Bernard's good in that movie.
- [98:59]
Bill Simmons
Bernard was in a Miami Vice with Bill Russell. Yeah, Bill Russell and Bernard were father and son in an episode. Bernard was a good actor. I thought Ray was good. It's not a long list of good. Anthony Edwards was good in the Adam Sandler movie.
- [99:13]
Spike Lee
The what?
- [99:14]
Bill Simmons
Adam Sandler made a movie on called Hustle on Netflix and Anthony Edwards is in it.
- [99:20]
Spike Lee
What's the one that. That Kevin Garnett was a Uncut gems.
- [99:27]
Bill Simmons
Kevin Garnett was good.
- [99:28]
Spike Lee
Yeah, he was good.
- [99:30]
Bill Simmons
Boston Sal and I thought even though Eddie was not a good movie, which I'm sure you probably hated, I hate it. I thought Malik Stele was good that movie. I thought Rick Fox was good, too. We've had some good ones.
- [99:41]
Spike Lee
Rick is an actor.
- [99:43]
Bill Simmons
Rick's an actor.
- [99:44]
Spike Lee
You put him in this movie and. Yeah, Coach. Playing himself.
- [99:47]
Bill Simmons
Coach Fox.
- [99:48]
Spike Lee
Coach Fox.
- [99:49]
Bill Simmons
I don't know why he took the.
- [99:50]
Spike Lee
Larry Bird shot, though. I think he's not a shot. That's what.
- [99:56]
Bill Simmons
That was his.
- [99:57]
Spike Lee
That's what a policeman would say, that the guy was a Celtic fan. So why wouldn't he get at Rick Fox?
- [100:03]
Bill Simmons
You healed with Larry Bird and now you're taking. Now you're taking shots at him.
- [100:07]
Spike Lee
I'm not taking a shot. As I said before, ladies and gentlemen, those listening home had the utmost respect for Libra.
- [100:13]
Bill Simmons
We have to. There's a big thing before we talk about your movie. I feel like Shalom is on your corner a little bit, and I want to make sure you guys are good because. Because he's become a signature Knicks fan. He's kind of. He's kind of in. Kind of in your real estate. Are you. Have you hashed this out?
- [100:28]
Spike Lee
What's going on, no, my sis, my daughter and my son, they all grew up together in New York City. So I got.
- [100:40]
Bill Simmons
Man, we want to, we want to condone this.
- [100:41]
Spike Lee
We want to do a film together.
- [100:43]
Bill Simmons
Oh, so you're in. Okay.
- [100:45]
Spike Lee
I mean, all right.
- [100:46]
Bill Simmons
He's on your corner a little bit. You're sharing it. It's a big corner now.
- [100:51]
Spike Lee
There's no competition.
- [100:53]
Bill Simmons
He's wearing chrome hearts. Nick's wardrobe, like he's really stepped it up.
- [100:58]
Spike Lee
Look, there's no robbery there.
- [101:02]
Bill Simmons
This is like LeBron Jordan.
- [101:03]
Spike Lee
He's a great actor.
- [101:04]
Bill Simmons
I'm just trying to start.
- [101:05]
Spike Lee
Shit. He's a great actor and one day when a work together.
- [101:08]
Bill Simmons
I'm just trying to start the sentient island.
- [101:10]
Spike Lee
There's no to be started.
- [101:12]
Bill Simmons
I don't know. I heard he was telling people it's my team now.
- [101:14]
Spike Lee
No, he was.
- [101:17]
Bill Simmons
Patrick, why they lying on?
- [101:19]
Spike Lee
Why they lying on? Now here's the thing though. People try to. I know you do a kidding but people trying to start stuff. Me and him are good, man. It's, it's, it's all.
- [101:28]
Bill Simmons
Do people actually try to start stuff? Interesting.
- [101:31]
Spike Lee
Yeah. I think that he's a hair parent. You know, I'm hand. I'm going to hand him the baton. But it's not. We just love the Knicks.
- [101:38]
Bill Simmons
So where are you going?
- [101:39]
Spike Lee
You're.
- [101:40]
Bill Simmons
You've plenty of good Knicks years ahead of you.
- [101:43]
Spike Lee
Well, God willing. Look, he's a good guy.
- [101:46]
Bill Simmons
He's a real fan.
- [101:46]
Spike Lee
He's a. He's a real fan. Is a great actor and we've talked about doing a film together. You know, once this schedule clears up, the next.
- [101:55]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I was going to say he's kind of in demand. Well, maybe it could be a Knicks. Knicks related.
- [102:00]
Spike Lee
Nice. Have nothing to do with boys.
- [102:03]
Bill Simmons
He's a W fan. Sports radio host.
- [102:07]
Spike Lee
You know what?
- [102:08]
Bill Simmons
I'm trying to think of something.
- [102:11]
Spike Lee
You better think longer and harder.
- [102:13]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, let me get back to the workshop on that. Yeah. So it's you two. Who else was going on the road for those games? You guys were the two big ones, right? Seemed like there was a little celebrity posse traveling around.
- [102:24]
Spike Lee
Yes, and that guy Al Palagoni, you know, he sits next to me. You know, he has Apollo jets, so we're all on his plane. And a lot of the players too.
- [102:34]
Bill Simmons
You must be so excited though that they're good again. I mean, you talk about sticking through the lean years. It's like two decades.
- [102:43]
Spike Lee
Look, we have not won a world championship since the 72. 73 seed.
- [102:47]
Bill Simmons
I know I was.
- [102:48]
Spike Lee
How many years is that?
- [102:48]
Bill Simmons
I was three years.
- [102:49]
Spike Lee
Is that my brother?
- [102:51]
Bill Simmons
50, 52.
- [102:52]
Spike Lee
I was three years old, not 53.
- [102:54]
Bill Simmons
Well, it's going to be 53 this year.
- [102:56]
Spike Lee
Yeah. This is a glory year. I don't want anybody to get hurt. But with Tatum, Halliburton. I'm not scared of Cleveland. They went out the first round last year. Right.
- [103:12]
Bill Simmons
You should probably be scared of okc. I would be scared of them.
- [103:15]
Spike Lee
Look. Well. Yeah. That means we're in the finals.
- [103:18]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, that means you're in the finals.
- [103:19]
Spike Lee
Let's get out. Win the Eastern Division first. That's why I said Boston and Indiana. Indiana quit us out the last two years in the playoffs.
- [103:29]
Bill Simmons
Your guy, if you look at the book there, Goldman's staring at you. He missed all of it.
- [103:34]
Spike Lee
Great writer.
- [103:35]
Bill Simmons
Great writer.
- [103:36]
Spike Lee
Great. Had his seats right behind the baseline way before me.
- [103:40]
Bill Simmons
He went to all of them in the last 15 years. There was no good memories. But now. And the Brunson thing, I don't know how sustainable it is with small guards to be like. To just do this for seven, eight years. Because the pounding he takes, like Isaiah was retired when he was like, 32. Like Isaiah Thomas, the Celtics version, you know, he was. He was last in 2017. He got hurt. I just. He takes a lot of hits. That would be my one fear with him.
- [104:10]
Spike Lee
I don't think this will happen with Mr. Brunson.
- [104:14]
Bill Simmons
What do you mean? You just think he's just built different and he's a crazy worker.
- [104:19]
Spike Lee
He's built like that. He's built for it. And so he's going to be the one to lead us to the glory land.
- [104:25]
Bill Simmons
You get along with his dad, Rick? His dad's running the team. Apparently.
- [104:30]
Spike Lee
One of the team. No, he's not even a lead assistant coach. Assistant coach.
- [104:35]
Bill Simmons
Now, I know that was a rumor that was going around.
- [104:37]
Spike Lee
No, it's true.
- [104:38]
Bill Simmons
No, I know. It's Leon and World Wide West.
- [104:40]
Spike Lee
No, I'm saying Mike Brown is hiring his own coaches.
- [104:46]
Bill Simmons
Is Rick Brunson? I thought he was on the bench. He's not.
- [104:48]
Spike Lee
He's the only one left. Harry Else is gone.
- [104:51]
Bill Simmons
And you like Mike Brown?
- [104:53]
Spike Lee
Yeah, I think that. Look, I love tips.
- [104:55]
Bill Simmons
You seem very confident. Last time I saw you, you were not confident at all.
- [104:59]
Spike Lee
Yeah. How many years ago was that?
- [105:00]
Bill Simmons
That was like 20, 19, 18. Now I think you're just trading Porzingis.
- [105:06]
Spike Lee
Heard that soap opera as the World Turns.
- [105:08]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. I think you just traded Porzingis and you were down in the dumps. Or you're about to trade Porzingis.
- [105:16]
Spike Lee
What happened?
- [105:17]
Bill Simmons
The Knicks. That was the last time I saw you.
- [105:19]
Spike Lee
What up? That's. Man.
- [105:22]
Bill Simmons
Shoot.
- [105:23]
Spike Lee
You guys got rid of them?
- [105:25]
Bill Simmons
Well, we had to. They changed the rules on us.
- [105:29]
Spike Lee
Oh, that rule is just for the Boston Celtics.
- [105:31]
Bill Simmons
Change the rules. Come on. Come on. I'm sorry. We built an awesome team of assets. Now you have to take assets away from it. It's gonna happen in the Knicks.
- [105:38]
Spike Lee
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't keep these team together when we get a ring.
- [105:42]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [105:43]
Spike Lee
Well, mate.
- [105:43]
Bill Simmons
Well, so he got game two as. As a gender flip, I think is great. This movie you did, which I saw last night, which was exhilarating last night. I did.
- [105:54]
Spike Lee
You had a screener?
- [105:55]
Bill Simmons
I did. No, I went to the. I went to one of those screening theaters. I would have liked a bigger theater, but it was.
- [106:00]
Spike Lee
It.
- [106:00]
Bill Simmons
It did the job. And I didn't read anything. I didn't know where it was going. I just had a great time.
- [106:06]
Spike Lee
Yeah.
- [106:07]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I had a great time. You know what? Denzel Washington, he's been in my life now. I mean, you have to go back to sin elsewhere because I saw him on that show, but, like, as a reliable. I'm going to go see Denzel in a movie theater. This is now 35 years. It's atypical. And then you two together.
- [106:27]
Spike Lee
He's consistent, too. Yeah.
- [106:28]
Bill Simmons
You two together. Of course I'm going to enjoy this.
- [106:31]
Spike Lee
Dean Lee.
- [106:33]
Bill Simmons
So you're doing the reinterpretation.
- [106:35]
Spike Lee
Yes. Of the Kurosawa film, which is made from American novel written by Ed McBain. So United States, Japan. And also that was Japan post war. 1963. 1963.
- [106:48]
Bill Simmons
And that was shoes.
- [106:49]
Spike Lee
Yeah. And I mean, Denzel to be owner of a shoe company, you know, I think you had to bring him back to the culture. And he's head of the founder and head of a record label stacking hits.
- [107:06]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [107:07]
Spike Lee
And he's come to this point where that music is hard to stay on top, you know, for decades. And the thing for me that really drew me to this part behind working with Denzel again, is that what makes the novel and also Kurosawa's film highest, lowest, is that when you're an audience. This is what I think when you're an audience watching this film, you put yourself in the shoes of Denzel Washington with this morality. What will you do?
- [107:46]
Bill Simmons
I love what will you do?
- [107:48]
Spike Lee
Movies. This is. This is one of them. Yeah.
- [107:50]
Bill Simmons
You're sitting in your seat going, fuck, I know what the right choice is. Would I do It.
- [107:56]
Spike Lee
And that's. That's. And then when you have an actor, esteemed actor on the level of Denzel Washington, I'm sure everybody who sees this film in the theater or at home will feel the same way, asking. Asking themselves what will they do if they were in a situation Denzel's character, David King is in.
- [108:19]
Bill Simmons
So you've known him for so long. Because I do this now because I'm younger than you, but I'm still in mid-50s. But you start.
- [108:28]
Spike Lee
What year were you born?
- [108:28]
Bill Simmons
I was 69. So you go back 69 and the years pass. Yeah.
- [108:32]
Spike Lee
An amazing 69 Mets.
- [108:34]
Bill Simmons
Well, Russell's last title. I like to think of 69 in.
- [108:37]
Spike Lee
The Moon, but managed by Gil Hodges. Ed Crane. Pool at first.
- [108:43]
Bill Simmons
That was a great game.
- [108:44]
Spike Lee
Ken Bosbo at second. Bud Harrelson is short.
- [108:48]
Bill Simmons
Did you like that team?
- [108:49]
Spike Lee
I love that team. Cleon Jones and left Tommy Agee in center, Ron Shrobota in right, Seaver.
- [108:57]
Bill Simmons
Kuzman, Ryan.
- [108:58]
Spike Lee
Jerry Kuzman, Gary Gentry, Nolan. There's a famous card, baseball card. Gary Gentry, Nolan. Nolan Ryan share the same rookie card. Yeah, rookie card. And also sometime first baseman. Don Clendenin. And Don Clendenin went to my college, Morehouse College. Down with NAS. What?
- [109:20]
Bill Simmons
Down with two N's.
- [109:22]
Spike Lee
Yeah.
- [109:23]
Bill Simmons
The reason I brought up 69 was I have friends that I've had for. Since 1988. Things we did together, they just blend in with each other. You've known denzel since the 80s.
- [109:34]
Spike Lee
You made five movies with them, both Better Blues.
- [109:36]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, yeah.
- [109:36]
Spike Lee
I knew him before that, though.
- [109:38]
Bill Simmons
So when you think of, like, this relationship you have with them, does the shit blend in together? Do you remember specific things or what is it at this point?
- [109:45]
Spike Lee
Here's the thing, though. Me and Denzel are friends. We trust each other. But we might see each other when the lake. When the lake. When Nixon.
- [109:56]
Bill Simmons
La.
- [109:57]
Spike Lee
I'm sitting next to him. What's the new. What's the new place called? Arena.
- [110:03]
Bill Simmons
Into it Dome.
- [110:04]
Spike Lee
No, that's the Quippers. Yeah. Anyway, and then he might. He's in New York. He lives in New York, too. You know, we come to nick games. So it's not like we're best friends. We talk all the time, but we're doing a film is rock solid.
- [110:21]
Bill Simmons
So when you've done a film, when you've done four other movies with somebody and then you're doing the fifth with them, is there. Is there like a shorthand or like, is it new every time?
- [110:30]
Spike Lee
We did not have to have a Deep conversation about the other force we've done. And. No, we work. It's like we. We work together.
- [110:40]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [110:41]
Spike Lee
Inside man was yesterday. Right. That's. That what we have. And our wives are close and our children. Denzel's son was a leading black Klansman. John David.
- [110:50]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [110:50]
Spike Lee
Washington. So you have to be up in somebody's face every single minute. Because if the bond is there and on solid grounds on trust and love, that's all you need. You have to see him every day.
- [111:07]
Bill Simmons
When I did a pod with him, I was all excited to go backwards and talk about different movies he made. And he's the opposite. He just is like, I made the movie. It happened. I don't think about it anymore.
- [111:15]
Spike Lee
That's what Denzel. Denzel is. I'm going to say this. Denzel doesn't even look at his films once. Once.
- [111:20]
Bill Simmons
He didn't want to talk about it. He want to talk about the Knicks and the Lakers and Cowboys. Denzel. Yeah, that's what I mean.
- [111:25]
Spike Lee
He moves on. Moves on. What's. What's next?
- [111:28]
Bill Simmons
Like, what about man on Fire? It's like.
- [111:29]
Spike Lee
Yeah.
- [111:29]
Bill Simmons
Tony Scott. Is it like he just doesn't care?
- [111:33]
Spike Lee
Well, he cares, but I think it's just this process that he's on to the next one. He's. He's. He doesn't. He's in the. He's in the moment, he's in the future, and he's not in the past is gone, and you can't bring it back.
- [111:44]
Bill Simmons
But it's like Tom Brady. What's your favorite Super Bowl? The next one that stands out. What's your favorite movie?
- [111:50]
Spike Lee
The next one. No, let me. Now you bring up Tom Brady.
- [111:53]
Bill Simmons
I'm sorry.
- [111:54]
Spike Lee
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
- [111:54]
Bill Simmons
With the seven Super Bowls. Not enough.
- [111:56]
Spike Lee
Who's this? Who's this?
- [111:57]
Bill Simmons
What's that?
- [111:59]
Spike Lee
You know what that is.
- [112:01]
Bill Simmons
Are you. Tucker. Oh, come on.
- [112:05]
Spike Lee
What's this? Manningham.
- [112:08]
Bill Simmons
So that one bothered me more.
- [112:09]
Spike Lee
Why? Because you were undefeated that year?
- [112:11]
Bill Simmons
Because they. They outplayed us in 07. The Giants were better that game. Like, they kicked our ass. That game.
- [112:17]
Spike Lee
Full.
- [112:18]
Bill Simmons
That 2011 Giants team stunk. No, we. We gave. We gave them that game.
- [112:23]
Spike Lee
I'm gonna get in the car right now.
- [112:25]
Bill Simmons
No, that team.
- [112:26]
Spike Lee
Come on. How we make a Super bowl stink.
- [112:28]
Bill Simmons
Well, the. The. The Lambo game, that was a good one. But we were better than them in 11.
- [112:32]
Spike Lee
Why'd you win it?
- [112:33]
Bill Simmons
We stunk. We. We choked away the game.
- [112:36]
Spike Lee
So why did you. Undefeated.
- [112:37]
Bill Simmons
Eli made one.
- [112:38]
Spike Lee
You're undefeated. You're undefeated.
- [112:40]
Bill Simmons
No, that was those.
- [112:41]
Spike Lee
So you choose the Sioux bowl. The stink.
- [112:43]
Bill Simmons
No, that was 07. You guys beat us in 07. Like that front four dominated the game. They were better. I'm fine with O7.
- [112:51]
Spike Lee
Straight hand.
- [112:52]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. 07. We lost. We couldn't run the ball and the front four killed us.
- [112:57]
Spike Lee
So Tom Brady was courtsided Nick game.
- [113:00]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [113:01]
Spike Lee
And they gave him a ball signed. He has to throw up in the stands during timeout.
- [113:07]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [113:08]
Spike Lee
So Tom says, come here, Spike, when this thing happens, I'm going to throw the ball to you first. And you throw it back to me. He throws me a bullet like I'm Gronk, right. I'm five, six. The bull flies over my head and lucky it hit me, right? So the ball goal here. I run back and give it to him and he threw open. But that one was funny.
- [113:37]
Bill Simmons
Do you fit like you've been around?
- [113:38]
Spike Lee
That's what I'd like to say this.
- [113:39]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [113:41]
Spike Lee
I got the utmost respect for Brady. Great guy.
- [113:44]
Bill Simmons
Thank you.
- [113:45]
Spike Lee
Great guy. Great guy.
- [113:49]
Bill Simmons
You've been around a lot of cool actors, people with charisma and a lot of cool athletes with charisma. Is there some sort of common. Is there some sort of common DNA trait that you notice?
- [114:00]
Spike Lee
Confidence. Right now, not every athletes not very active. But I'm talking about the greats and the ones that they really thrive in front of the camera. Confidence also they take direction too. So the athletes and the great ones, they gotta listen to the coach. The coach may call on the fucked up play and they say, fuck that, I'm not doing that. But in general that they listen, listen. They would start listening to their coaches when they're in the major. That shit starts early, right? Pop one or whatever it is, you know. And the great ones had the blessing of having a coach that could put them on a straight path, lay down stuff you got to do to get there. Because you always hear these guys talk about not necessarily their pro coach, but the high school, especially a high school coach, high school coach who made the path smooth. What the word you wanted. But those, those, those high school coaches laid down the foundation. Do you agree with that?
- [115:13]
Bill Simmons
I think coaches, especially at the elementary high school level are like seven times more important than people give it credit for.
- [115:19]
Spike Lee
But now it's good because they can.
- [115:20]
Bill Simmons
Make you either not like sports or they can make you.
- [115:23]
Spike Lee
Now it's now with this travel squad and all. It's crazy.
- [115:28]
Bill Simmons
They. We're at a great reckoning with basketball right now.
- [115:31]
Spike Lee
Where's that?
- [115:32]
Bill Simmons
Tell me the specialization. The AAU Stuff, the flying everywhere, the playing, you know, eight games and two weekends, and it's all for the. There's pressure on these parents that if you don't do it, your kid's going to fall behind and they lost in the sauce. They fucked up everything. And.
- [115:50]
Spike Lee
Well, doesn't money usually do that?
- [115:53]
Bill Simmons
Well, that's for damn sure. But the specialization. You talk to some of the best athletes I've ever had. Like, even LeBron played football in high school. Like, he was playing multiple sports.
- [116:03]
Spike Lee
But something that's playing multiple sports helps whatever sport you really.
- [116:07]
Bill Simmons
And it also helps if you're an awesome athlete that could play multiple sports. The confidence thing, though, was there another actor other than, like, Denzel, obviously, but were there other people you remember where you're like, man, that guy really. Or that lady really, really knows what they're doing? Because you've had 40 years of movies now.
- [116:26]
Spike Lee
John Turturro. John Turturro, Edward Norton.
- [116:32]
Bill Simmons
Oh, you got. That's my favorite. That's my favorite spike Lee movie.
- [116:36]
Spike Lee
25Th hour.
- [116:36]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [116:37]
Spike Lee
Philosimo Hoffman.
- [116:40]
Bill Simmons
I mean, that movie's incredible. We talked about it last time, but it's basically the right after 911 movie that people didn't realize was the right after 911 movie. But it is.
- [116:50]
Spike Lee
Yeah. Nobody went to see that movie when it came out. And I'm a New Yorker. And the thing about that, I wasn't even in New York for 9 11. Where were you? I was in LA. I was trying to get Arnold Schwarzenegger. Schwarzenegger in a film I was doing what? To do a film called Save Us Joe Lewis, I wrote with the great Bud Schulberg, and he was going to play Max Schmeling.
- [117:19]
Bill Simmons
Really.
- [117:21]
Spike Lee
So I was on a left and we had a meeting the morning. That morning, and we weren't even talking. We were just looking at the TV screen. So.
- [117:35]
Bill Simmons
You sprinkled some serious New York in this new movie. I don't want to spoil it for the people that haven't listened, but there's an action series. I'm a New Yorker. You got Yankee Stadium, you have a parade. You got all kinds of stuff happening.
- [117:50]
Spike Lee
And I like to say, if I can, right now, we're all sat on by the loss. The great, great, great Eddie Palmeri, who passed. I mean, his scene where he performs the anthem. Not anthem, but the great song Puerto Rico, that holds that scene together. And he just died last week. Damn. You know that? Yeah, he died.
- [118:17]
Bill Simmons
So I was thinking, I was. Your first movie was 86.
- [118:21]
Spike Lee
She's going to have it.
- [118:22]
Bill Simmons
It's now too that you've. This is your 40th year of making movies.
- [118:26]
Spike Lee
Yeah, yeah. 48 years.
- [118:29]
Bill Simmons
40.
- [118:29]
Spike Lee
Oh, 44.
- [118:31]
Bill Simmons
Oh, this is your 40th Spike Lee movie year.
- [118:33]
Spike Lee
That's 40 for 40 acres and a mule.
- [118:35]
Bill Simmons
Would you have. Would you have guessed that in 86 I will make 40 years of movies?
- [118:39]
Spike Lee
No. I mean, I barely making shit practically killed me. So everything after that, my brother's been a blessing because I say this all the time. I hope that people don't get mad, don't get mad at me saying it. Instead they hurt it more than once. On this God's earth. If you can make a living doing what you love, you won. Majority of people on this God's earthquake, their grave haven't worked at a job they hated. But they're going to put make. They're not going to let their kids starve. They're going to put poles on your kids back and food and a roof over your head. But that's not their dream. Right. You know, but when you get to do what your dream is, you won. You've won.
- [119:27]
Bill Simmons
I don't think you could say that enough. Because it's true.
- [119:30]
Spike Lee
That's true.
- [119:31]
Bill Simmons
I mean, you talk to a lot of college kids and stuff, but that must be one of your big messages, right?
- [119:36]
Spike Lee
Well, my brother, I know I said the term many times, but I mean it's is truthful the thing that brings me joy besides making films. I'm a cinephile and I'm a tenured professor of film. NYU Graduate School.
- [119:55]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [119:55]
Spike Lee
Ernest Dicks is my great DP those early years and Ang Lee were classmates. Ang Lee, yes, and Jim. Same class. And Jim Jarmer were two years ahead of us. So Jim Johnvis had white hair even back then. So when Jim Johnvis's Stranger paradise hit, we were like. That was. We were so happy because look, Oliver Stone was before us at nyu. Marty was before us at nyu. So we loved them. But they were in our class.
- [120:23]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [120:23]
Spike Lee
They weren't in the building when we were there. You know, so when Jarvis. I always give my love to Jim Jarvis because he made it possible that independence time is the way to go. Everything Jim did with Stranger Paradise, I did what she's going to have it. I followed the festival thing, unlike that. So I'm a teacher. I've been teaching for 30 years, every Thursday. But when I'm shooting a film, I take the semester off. But I love teaching class. I love it. I'm not going to name People, Several people. More than several people working today. I was a professor. Not that I was the only professor, but I helped them. And it's gratifying to see young people win. And that even before class, I have class from. I have lunch from 1 to 2, from 2 to 4, from 2 to 5 or 6, depending upon the film we're showing. A lot of times we have guests. And from 7 to 12, I have advisement where 30 minute slots. Students come in. I look at their films, I read their scripts, stuff like that. We had one. So we watched. What was the film? Close Encounters. So lights go up.
- [121:54]
Bill Simmons
Oh, I just watched that movie.
- [121:56]
Spike Lee
Lights come up and then Steven Spielberg walks down behind him. They come on, they said, because he was gracious enough to come to my class.
- [122:07]
Bill Simmons
Oh my God.
- [122:08]
Spike Lee
People went crazy. Just saw the great close counts. The lights come up and he's there walking the aisle. So anytime we have guests, we surprise them. Same thing happened with Edward Norton with your film 25th Hour. So when I can, I have guests because I just don't want to hear one voice. Yeah, Spike said you bring in the person that wrote the script, the person writing it, you know, the, the wrote it, the star of it, the producer of it. It just makes it, you know, I.
- [122:38]
Bill Simmons
Mean, Spielberg walking in, they probably not even. They're probably just so stunned. It's not even a reaction.
- [122:44]
Spike Lee
No, they started cheering.
- [122:45]
Bill Simmons
Like, oh my God.
- [122:46]
Spike Lee
They started cheering and clapping and they were happy. And Stephen, he told me he really liked that, that he had a chance to come speak to young filmmakers.
- [122:57]
Bill Simmons
How are you feeling about the state of black filmmakers these days? Especially the younger ones?
- [123:02]
Spike Lee
Well, I mean, you can't. Look, everybody's excited about what Ryan has done, but he's not the only one. So it's still a struggle. And so gotta keep on keeping on, you know, that's just the nature of the business, you know.
- [123:19]
Bill Simmons
So the one thing that's changed, I think the, the most severely, in a good way.
- [123:24]
Spike Lee
What's that?
- [123:25]
Bill Simmons
Well, think about when you did Malcolm X. It was initially gonna go to a white director, Norman Jewison, who's one of the, you know, one of the best directors.
- [123:33]
Spike Lee
Several films with Hurricane, with Denzel.
- [123:35]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, yeah, but. And also, but in that case, the way Hollywood thought about that stuff, they never even, never even occurred to people like, eh, maybe, maybe we should have a black director for this. But now it feels like that shifted.
- [123:49]
Spike Lee
But here's the thing though, like with.
- [123:51]
Bill Simmons
All types of things.
- [123:51]
Spike Lee
Let me add this. Here's the thing though, and not Many people know about this. That film was Norman Jordan's film.
- [123:58]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, he developed it.
- [123:59]
Spike Lee
Right. With Marvel's last name. Anyway, I made it known that I had a certain type of feeling about that Marvin Wert. He arranged a meeting between Norman Jewish, the late, great Norman Jewish, and I. And I just explained to Norman why I felt I should be directing the film. And Norman, we had a talk back and forth, and excuse me, he bowed out gracefully. He didn't have to do that. The film was his. The film was enormous. He chose Denzel. Denzel's part of that film. But even before me, also, Denzel had done an off Broadway play that called When Chickens Come Home to Roost. But I gotta give a shout out to Norman Drews, because if he could have said, spike f you, I'm directing it. But he didn't do that.
- [124:53]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. And in the early 90s, it probably wouldn't have been a big deal. In fact, you probably would have been like, who's Spike Lee? Why does he think he should direct this? Well, it's definitely shifted.
- [125:03]
Spike Lee
I had done films before that was.
- [125:05]
Bill Simmons
No, I know. But you don't know.
- [125:06]
Spike Lee
I'm just saying. I'm getting a shout out. I'm complimenting.
- [125:09]
Bill Simmons
So what was great.
- [125:10]
Spike Lee
The late, great Norman Jewish.
- [125:12]
Bill Simmons
What's the biggest movie that you thought.
- [125:14]
Spike Lee
You were going to do that you're.
- [125:15]
Bill Simmons
The most excited to do and then you didn't do? Was there one that was like your great Kahuna?
- [125:21]
Spike Lee
There's two. It was a Jackie Robinson movie, which I was going to do with Ted Turner. But my approach was I did not want to do a film just about 1947. Yeah. I want to do a biopic. And they chose not to. But, you know, Chadwick did a great job. And the other script, which I mentioned is called Save Us Joe Lewis.
- [125:44]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [125:45]
Spike Lee
Was. I wrote with the great, great Bud Schoberg. Bud Schoberg was inducted. He's in the Boxing hall of Fame. Bud wrote Oscar for On the Waterfront. And through his end, I got to meet Bud and we came very close. We wrote this script together about the relationship between Joe Lewis and Max Schmel and all the stuff that's happening.
- [126:12]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. It's actually a fascinating story that they became friends after and all of it.
- [126:18]
Spike Lee
And you know, Shmel was not a Nazi.
- [126:21]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [126:23]
Spike Lee
But didn't happen. The first fight in Yankee Stadium, Joe didn't train, got knocked out. The second fight, he trained, he knocked smelling out. But the thing about this, that the second fight, before the second fight, FDR summoned Joe Lewis to the White House and said, come here, Joe. FDR was in a wheelchair. He said, these are the muscles that we're going to beat the Nazis with. People thought that the winner of the Shmell and Lewis fight. The second fight, 938 would determine the win of World War II. Jesus. And it went like, Joe's here. And post war Germany, Coca Cola, America. All America wanted get business in Germany. The war is over and Coca Cola needs a president. So say like Max Melon to be president of Coca Cola in Germany. Joe gets involved in drugs and stuff. And he's a greeter. And Caesar's palace, some. Some place, you know, some hotel in Las Vegas. And so it shifted. Joe ended up broke and Smell was a president of Coca Cola.
- [127:39]
Bill Simmons
Jesus.
- [127:40]
Spike Lee
It's an epic film. And the writing.
- [127:43]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Joe became like a casino greeter, right? He just was.
- [127:46]
Spike Lee
Yeah, completely. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, he got into drugs, you know, cocaine, stuff like that. But the fact that me and Bud came really tight.
- [127:56]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [127:57]
Spike Lee
And this is a guy that wrote, you know, what makes Sammy run. Facing the crowd. The film after Waterfront. And there were several times where you call me up, Spike, did you get the money? Yeah. He had a very particular voice. And I made a promise. But the great buzz show Brooke that on his deathbed, literally, I'll get this film made. It never happened. Not yet. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna lie. I'm not lying. We're getting the buddy, but we're getting this film made.
- [128:32]
Bill Simmons
Could there be a Michael Jordan movie? Because I feel like the documentaries are so good now. You almost couldn't do it.
- [128:40]
Spike Lee
I wouldn't do it. I don't think Mike would want to do it either. I'm like, I can't speak for him, but right now, in my opinion, Mike just wants me left the fuck alone. Just leave me alone. I got my boat, I got this, I got my car thing going. You know, Just let me live my life. That's what I think I get from Michael.
- [129:02]
Bill Simmons
Cause I think the Last Dance is almost like the movie. Like if you're gonna do Michael Jordan movie, just watch the Last Dance. And I don't know if you can make a movie that's. You know, I thought Ali. I know you were interested in doing the Ali movie at some point. It's got some. With Will Smith, it's got some interesting stretches. But ultimately Ali was such a one on one, it's hard to even play. How do you play him?
- [129:24]
Spike Lee
Him?
- [129:25]
Bill Simmons
There was nobody like him. We've never had a human being like him before since, you know, but look.
- [129:30]
Spike Lee
Everybody makes their choices. And so again, I'm gonna. I know I'm repeating myself, but I made a promise that the great Bud Schoberg. Yeah, I'll get this. Filming for me, on the Waterfront is my favorite movie of all time. Of all time. Brando. I mean, look what actor has done what Brando did. On the Waterfront. I could have been a contender. It's a funny scene where in one of your favorite films of mine, 20th Hour, where Barry Pepper accidentally broke Edward Norton's nose.
- [130:12]
Bill Simmons
For real?
- [130:13]
Spike Lee
Yeah, for real. And so the ambulance there. The camera's here. And the ambulance had turned. Turn the alarm off, the. Whatever it is, the siren off. So the camera in front of the ambulance. I said, edward doing this. Look, give me one more take. Not one, just really one take. Remember how Brando walked after he got beat up?
- [130:38]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [130:39]
Spike Lee
He's walking up the steps from the thing. That's why they want you to walk to the museum. I mean, to pass the camera. And as soon as you pass the camera, I'll call. Cut. Ganamos, get your nose fixed. Jesus. You remember when Brando, he got beat up in the shed.
- [130:59]
Bill Simmons
Brando had a weird hold over all the actors from, like, 1970, probably through Ed Norton.
- [131:05]
Spike Lee
Right.
- [131:05]
Bill Simmons
But now that's one of the things I always think about with movies and sports. Like, enough time passes, and then if you're in that film, do you think, like, Chalamet has Brando Pinnacles played a boxer?
- [131:17]
Spike Lee
I watched a boxer in that film.
- [131:19]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. I had a Delroy Lindo thing I wanted to bring up before we go.
- [131:26]
Spike Lee
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [131:28]
Bill Simmons
Because he's really good in Sinners, but he was also really good in your movie. I feel like he's having Five Bloods also. I think he's having a renaissance also.
- [131:36]
Spike Lee
Look, he played my father in Crookland.
- [131:39]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [131:39]
Spike Lee
Alfie Woodard played my mother. That film is semi autobiographical about the leads growing up. It's in Brooklyn.
- [131:44]
Bill Simmons
I was trying to think of the sports equivalent of somebody having, like, the run he's having right now in movies at the age he's at. It's great.
- [131:50]
Spike Lee
I'm happy for him. Yeah.
- [131:51]
Bill Simmons
Cause you.
- [131:52]
Spike Lee
He should have won Oscar for supporting actor for the Five Bloods. That one scene in the film where he's speaking to the camera going through the jungle, he was awesome in that movie.
- [132:05]
Bill Simmons
So what's your next movie? Do you know yet?
- [132:08]
Spike Lee
Don't know yet. And also, be honest. I know, but I don't talk about stuff before it happens. I just. For me, personally, I think that's a jinx.
- [132:18]
Bill Simmons
Oh, I see what you mean. So there might be a next movie.
- [132:21]
Spike Lee
Oh, I'm not done yet.
- [132:23]
Bill Simmons
Are you at the point now where you're like, mid April, May, June, probably not filming?
- [132:30]
Spike Lee
I pick dates.
- [132:31]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Yeah.
- [132:32]
Spike Lee
Like, we gotta be going by this date.
- [132:34]
Bill Simmons
We're done by, like, March 29th. I have. I have business.
- [132:39]
Spike Lee
Well, here's the thing, though, because I gotta. I'm still teaching.
- [132:42]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [132:43]
Spike Lee
So it let me off. I have, you know, you have the fall semester and the spring semester. So they gotta know, well, I'm not gonna be teaching.
- [132:52]
Bill Simmons
So. 40 years of spike movies. What was the one that came out in a way that you look back now and you think, that's the closest to what I wanted the movie to be. Now, looking back, the most things went right. I feel the best about this. I did my job the best I possibly could have.
- [133:10]
Spike Lee
I would say I've done the best I job. I would say I've done the best I could at that time.
- [133:17]
Bill Simmons
So you don't think of it that way. There's not one, looking back years later, where you're like, man, a lot of things went right for that one. Well, you need 20 things to go right.
- [133:26]
Spike Lee
You're absolutely right. To make a movie is one of the hard things known to humankind. I say mankind said humankind. And there's so many things that out of your control.
- [133:39]
Bill Simmons
So, yeah, you have one actor that you cast wrong, one scene that something got screwed up and the take wasn't what you wanted.
- [133:48]
Spike Lee
Like, that's why I said it's the hardest thing known to humankind. I think, as far as you're in the art form. So I'm not saying as hard as digging a ditch in a coal mine in West Virginia. I'm not saying that, but.
- [134:02]
Bill Simmons
Well, the hardest thing now is going to be to win four straight NBA titles in a row. The second apron. That's the single hardest thing right now. Well, we'll never see it again.
- [134:10]
Spike Lee
Look, as a person, as a Knick fan, and we hadn't won since the 7270 season, we don't have that luxury of having. How many rams you got? Seventeen.
- [134:20]
Bill Simmons
We have 17. Unlike the Lakers, who lie. They count the five Minneapolis ones.
- [134:25]
Spike Lee
It's bullshit. Come on, now. Come on.
- [134:28]
Bill Simmons
Can't count those.
- [134:28]
Spike Lee
That was a great rivalry.
- [134:30]
Bill Simmons
It really was. We'll see what happens now with the Lakers because they stumbled into one of the five best guys in the league.
- [134:38]
Spike Lee
That was not a stumble.
- [134:40]
Bill Simmons
Well, what's your conspiracy theory?
- [134:43]
Spike Lee
I ain't no stumble. I know a stumble on a stumble.
- [134:46]
Bill Simmons
But what are you trying to tell us, Spike?
- [134:49]
Spike Lee
I. Who was that? Was that Hogan's Hero? I know nothing. Did you like Hogan's Heroes growing up?
- [134:59]
Bill Simmons
It was a little. It was five years before I was Brady Bunch. Partridge Family was my era. Those were the scenes.
- [135:07]
Spike Lee
You know what's funny though? In Crookland, there's a scene where we used to have. So I have four siblings, so we had to vote. And the Partisan Family Gritty Bunch were back to back. And they came on the same time as the Knicks.
- [135:27]
Bill Simmons
Oh, really?
- [135:27]
Spike Lee
On WT, channel 9. So always got outvoted. That scene is in the movie.
- [135:36]
Bill Simmons
I'm trying to think like, so what time would that have been?
- [135:39]
Spike Lee
What?
- [135:39]
Bill Simmons
What time would that. So the Knicks came on at 7 and Partridge and Brady Bunch run at 7 o' clock at night.
- [135:45]
Spike Lee
7? Yeah. 7:30. 8 o'. Clock. 8 o'. Clock. 8 O'. Clock.
- [135:48]
Bill Simmons
We really didn't have a lot of TV options back then in New York.
- [135:52]
Spike Lee
Channel 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11. That was it. Yeah, that was it.
- [135:59]
Bill Simmons
We had the same. We had six in Boston and that.
- [136:03]
Spike Lee
Was all we had. All right, Spike, look, I want to thank you. And also, you do a great, great job, man. I mean, you know, sports, you know, even though you're from Boston, you know, you don't try. What did Yoda say about the word try?
- [136:17]
Bill Simmons
I try.
- [136:18]
Spike Lee
He didn't say that. Yoda did not say that. You know my brother. What did Yoda say?
- [136:24]
Bill Simmons
Yoda.
- [136:25]
Spike Lee
Yoda from Star Wars.
- [136:26]
Bill Simmons
What'd he say?
- [136:28]
Spike Lee
There's no try. Do that. Anytime is one of my students. I have a stack, A zero. A stack pile picture Yoda. And the quote. Anytime one of my students in class says the word try, I slap my fingers, my TA plops that piece of paper. Boom.
- [136:52]
Bill Simmons
That's it. Don't try that word.
- [136:54]
Spike Lee
Try. Gotta go. And, and thank you, Mr. Lucas.
- [136:59]
Bill Simmons
I also want to point out you did this entire podcast with me with the 1986 Celtics. Finger behind your head.
- [137:05]
Spike Lee
Oh, setup. You got me.
- [137:10]
Bill Simmons
I got you.
- [137:11]
Spike Lee
Hey, any sport. Boston in New York is great, Spike.
- [137:15]
Bill Simmons
I hope I see you in the playoffs with a healthy Jason Tatum.
- [137:18]
Spike Lee
You think he's coming back?
- [137:20]
Bill Simmons
I don't know. Well, look, I don't. As you said, this year's the write off for us.
- [137:26]
Spike Lee
If he comes back, I just hoping to come back too soon and hurts it again.
- [137:31]
Bill Simmons
That's the thing. We've all written off this year. But I think these guys are really competitive and if you tell them may they're going to want.
- [137:38]
Spike Lee
Let me ask you a question. If I don't think I got to go with my next thing. But what do you think about the Knicks this year? Go New York. Go New York, go. Coming out the East, I think if.
- [137:50]
Bill Simmons
If it's a bet your life situation, they're the safest bet. I'm not sure I would do the bet, though. I still.
- [137:59]
Spike Lee
You think the Cavaliers.
- [138:01]
Bill Simmons
I still feel like Milwaukee's going to be heard from. I know everybody thinks that's crazy. I just.
- [138:08]
Spike Lee
Having the game's not even there anymore.
- [138:10]
Bill Simmons
Having the best guy in the conference I still value. So I have to mention them. And then I really want to see Orlando. What those guys look together would be the other one. But you have the best chance.
- [138:20]
Spike Lee
All right.
- [138:21]
Bill Simmons
And I don't trust coming out of the East.
- [138:22]
Spike Lee
Right.
- [138:22]
Bill Simmons
I don't trust the Cleveland thing at all. But you could argue that they just had a dumb playoff series. Garland was hurt, Indiana made a couple crazy shots and all of a sudden they got bounced. But that team won 64 games. So maybe they'll have the eye of the tiger now. Maybe that was like their club or.
- [138:37]
Spike Lee
Lane, let me say. So let me ask a question. When New York wins, wins the mid championship, it's not a jinx. I'm just saying we win next year. I want to be on the show. I'm flying the next day.
- [138:50]
Bill Simmons
Spike, you're always invited on the show.
- [138:52]
Spike Lee
I want to come on a.
- [138:53]
Bill Simmons
Since we.
- [138:54]
Spike Lee
We have not all the time. I'm talking about. We haven't won since the 7272 season. And I want to see. I want to be in this scene looking at you.
- [139:03]
Bill Simmons
You're always debated. You can.
- [139:05]
Spike Lee
I want to be here the day after we win. So help me God.
- [139:13]
Bill Simmons
That sounds great. You. You bring Chalamet.
- [139:15]
Spike Lee
What?
- [139:16]
Bill Simmons
We can bring Chalamet. We'll figure out your W fan movie.
- [139:19]
Spike Lee
Good. I bet.
- [139:20]
Bill Simmons
All right. Good to see you. Thank you.
- [139:23]
Spike Lee
Oh, we left us on Slow up.
- [139:25]
Bill Simmons
What? Oh, we got to keep going.
- [139:26]
Spike Lee
Last thing.
- [139:27]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [139:27]
Spike Lee
You're watching the film.
- [139:29]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [139:29]
Spike Lee
And how many times has Boston mentioned this film? I'm asking, were you laughing when those things. One of those things happened in the film?
- [139:39]
Bill Simmons
First of all, I know going into it, there's going to be some shots fired at Boston and a movie set in New York. So I'm just waiting.
- [139:46]
Spike Lee
So you knew it.
- [139:47]
Bill Simmons
I'm waiting. So I see Rick Fox.
- [139:49]
Spike Lee
Can I just say this. You knew those shotguns were coming, right?
- [139:51]
Bill Simmons
I knew it was coming. So I had my bulletproof vest on.
- [139:54]
Spike Lee
Double barrel.
- [139:55]
Bill Simmons
Well, I knew it was coming, but then I saw Rick Fox and I was like, friendly face. Played with the Celtics for seven years. Played with Larry Bird. He won't be part of this Boston anti propaganda. No. Boom, you had him. Then you had Turturro chanting this Boston sucks at the subway with 50 people. He did a third thing, too. There was three different anti Boston things in there. I noticed all of them.
- [140:20]
Spike Lee
Well, look, all I can say is.
- [140:22]
Bill Simmons
Listen, you stay true to yourself. That's what makes you you.
- [140:25]
Spike Lee
I love Marlin's Vineyard. Thank you.
- [140:30]
Bill Simmons
Thank you. All right. Thanks so much to Spike Lee. Thanks to Danny Kelly. Thanks to Gahau and Eduardo and Ceruti as well. Good to have Cerutty back. Don't forget rewatchables, Rollerball last Monday and then Sinners coming up next Monday. So you have the whole weekend to watch. It's free on HBO Max. If you get HBO Max, just knock it out. A classic. An immediate classic. Anyway, enjoy the weekend and I will see you next week. Must be 21 + and President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + in President D.C. gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPENY or text hopeny in New York.