OKC Ends Denver, "Whaddya Do" Second-Round Losers, and Knicks-Pacers Predictions With Ryen Russillo

Summary

Summary of "OKC Ends Denver, 'Whaddya Do' Second-Round Losers, and Knicks-Pacers Predictions With Ryen Russillo" - The Bill Simmons Podcast

Release Date: May 19, 2025

In this episode of The Bill Simmons Podcast, host Bill Simmons engages in an in-depth discussion with guest Ryen Russillo, analyzing recent NBA playoff outcomes, team strategies, player performances, and future predictions. Below is a comprehensive summary of their conversation, segmented into key topics for clarity.

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1. OKC Thunder's Victory Over Denver Nuggets in Game 7

• Game Recap: The Oklahoma City Thunder (OKC) triumphed over the Denver Nuggets in a decisive Game 7, with a final score of 125-93. Despite Denver reaching a Game 7, their performance was lackluster compared to OKC's dominant display.

• Key Insights:

  • Defensive Strategy: OKC's defensive adjustments, particularly Caruso's role, were pivotal. They abandoned the strategy of guarding Nikola Jokić closely, which played a significant role in their victory.

    • Bill Simmons (03:33): "The more impressive for me was that OKC found something because they abandoned the Chet Jokić idea."

  • Player Performances: Josh Giddey (referred to as "Gordon" in the transcript) played a crucial role despite injuries, showcasing the team's depth and resilience.

    • Ryan Russillo (04:18): "I thought the Thunder, despite some concerns, were the better basketball team."

2. Implications for OKC and Denver

• OKC's Road Ahead: With this victory, OKC appears poised for a deeper playoff run, possibly advancing to the finals. Their strategic flexibility and depth give them a competitive edge.

  • Bill Simmons (06:06): "All four of those teams are arrow pointing up, even not just for this year, but for next year too."

• Denver's Challenges: Despite their efforts, Denver's inability to perform consistently in crucial moments, especially against OKC's defense, raises questions about their championship prospects.

  • Ryan Russillo (06:15): "It's about as wide open a final four as I could ever remember."

3. "Whaddya Do" - Strategies for Second-Round Playoff Losers

• Cleveland Cavaliers: Facing significant salary cap challenges and player options, Cleveland may need to consider rebuilding or restructuring their roster.

  • Bill Simmons (07:18): "Cleveland is screwed with a $200 million salary for eight guys next year."

• Boston Celtics: With Jaylen Brown's increasing salary and Tatum's injury, the Celtics are grappling with financial constraints, potentially forcing them to trade key players.

  • Ryan Russillo (08:13): "They might have to trade Holiday or Porzingis."

4. Draft, CBA, and Salary Cap Analysis

• Second Apron Concept: The discussion delves into the complexities of the NBA's salary cap (referred to as the "second apron"), highlighting how it restricts teams from retaining star players without significant financial sacrifices.

  • Bill Simmons (09:13): "The second apron prevents teams from keeping core players because of financial constraints."

• OKC's Position: With multiple future draft picks, OKC has flexibility but will likely face penalties under the new CBA rules if they choose to retain their current roster.

  • Ryan Russillo (12:43): "OKC might stumble into a strategy with flexibility to tweak their roster as needed."

5. Knicks-Pacers Predictions

• Series Overview: The host and guest analyze the upcoming matchup between the New York Knicks and the Indiana Pacers, considering team performances, defensive strengths, and key player impacts.

• Predictions:

  • Bill Simmons (25:14): "I have to vote for Pacers. They're deeper and have better defensive options."
  • Ryan Russillo (29:34): "I'm taking the Pacers. They have a slightly better team with a strong defensive run."

6. Team Building and Player Performance

• OKC Thunder's Roster Depth: OKC's ability to adapt their lineup and defensive strategies has been instrumental in their playoff success. Their diverse player roles and strategic flexibility make them formidable contenders.

  • Ryan Russillo (25:14): "OKC's defensive unit is the best in the league, and their roster depth allows them to adapt quickly."

• Boston Celtics' Dilemma: The Celtics face a precarious situation with their high payroll and key player injuries, necessitating tough decisions on roster management.

  • Bill Simmons (39:46): "The Celtics pushed all their chips in last year, and now they're facing a giant tax bill."

7. Player Injuries and Their Impact

• Key Injuries: The discussion highlights how injuries to pivotal players like Jaylen Brown and Tatum have significantly impacted their teams' performances and future strategies.

  • Bill Simmons (04:18): "Gordon on one leg was kind of the decider if there was any hope of them gutting it out."

• Impact on Team Performance: Injuries have forced teams to rely on less experienced or lower-performing players, affecting their playoff outcomes.

  • Ryan Russillo (14:57): "Jalen Williams had an abominable Game 6 at Denver, which was a bad reflection on his playoff performance."

8. Future Projections and CBA Implications

• Parity in the NBA: With the new CBA rules, there’s a potential shift towards greater parity, where teams must continually rebuild and cannot rely solely on past performance or star players.

  • Bill Simmons (09:30): "The CBA has created a league where you can't keep core players together without financial strain."

• Long-Term Team Strategies: Teams like OKC and San Antonio are positioning themselves to maintain competitiveness through strategic trades and asset management.

  • Bill Simmons (25:14): "OKC is probably the last team that has a chance to keep it going for seven, eight years because they have all these picks."

9. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

• OKC Thunder as Title Favorites: The episode concludes with a consensus leaning towards OKC as the frontrunners for the NBA title, given their current form and strategic advantages.

  • Bill Simmons (110:06): "If I was gonna bet, I still think OKC is gonna win the title."

• Knicks-Pacers Series as a Coin Toss: While both teams have their strengths, the Pacers are slightly favored due to their defensive depth and overall team performance throughout the playoffs.

  • Ryan Russillo (111:35): "I'm taking the Pacers. They have a slightly better team with a strong defensive run."

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Notable Quotes

• Bill Simmons (03:33): "The more impressive for me was that OKC found something because they abandoned the Chet Jokić idea."

• Ryan Russillo (06:15): "It's about as wide open a final four as I could ever remember."

• Bill Simmons (09:13): "The second apron prevents teams from keeping core players because of financial constraints."

• Ryan Russillo (25:14): "OKC's defensive unit is the best in the league, and their roster depth allows them to adapt quickly."

• Bill Simmons (110:06): "If I was gonna bet, I still think OKC is gonna win the title."

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This episode offers a nuanced exploration of the current NBA landscape, emphasizing the intricate balance between team strategy, player performance, financial constraints, and the evolving dynamics introduced by the new CBA. For fans and enthusiasts seeking a deeper understanding of playoff strategies and future projections, Bill Simmons and Ryen Russillo provide valuable insights grounded in extensive analysis and firsthand observations.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

You're listening and watching the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel, our friends America's number one sportsbook, and they've made it easier than ever to get in on the action during an NBA playoff game, even after a tip off. Just look for the live SGP tab on the FanDuel Sportsbook app and build your own bet slip. Then sit back, relax, track the outcome of your parlay right in the app. And if you don't already have it, download the FanDuel app today to make every moment more the Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end episode for additional details. Must be 21 plus on President Select States Gaming Prom, call 100 Gamble or visit rg-help.com Coming up we had a game seven. It wasn't that good, but we still talked two hours of NBA Next this episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. Summer is almost here and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. What do we mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parmesan delivered. A cabana? That's a no. A banana? That's a yes. A nice tan? Sorry, no. But a box fan? Happily, yes. A day of sunshine? Nope. A box of fine wines? Yeah, Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost almost anything delivered with UberEats. Order now. Alcohol in select markets. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. I have a new rewatchables coming for you. On Monday night we did Close Encounters of the Third Kind as part of Big Ass 70s Month. This was a very, very, very fun podcast. So that is coming. You can also watch on The Ringer Movies YouTube channel if you like movies. By the way, I went on Sean Fennesee's Big Picture. We did a Tom Cruise movie draft. Me, Van Lathan, Chris Ryan, Sean Fantasy and Amanda Dobbins. Spoiler I thought I won the draft, but you guys can decide. I thought I waxed everybody who knows Coming up on this podcast, OKC killed Denver in Game seven and we're going to talk about that. The ramifications the does this mean OKC is smooth sailing now until the finals? We are also going to talk about the four what do you do teams that lost in round two. What do you do if you're Cleveland? What do you do if you're Boston and talk some draft stuff or so is at the combine and some future basketball stuff as well. So this is a good one. First, our friends from Pearl Jam, Priscilla's. Here we are coming off a dramatic game seven. That was dramatic for about 40 minutes and then it was 42 to 41 at one point. It was one of those. We ended up at 12593 OKC blows out Denver. And that was the OKC team. That was the ceiling of the team that we're always afraid of when we think about them. Big picture. But more impressive that Denver even got to a Game seven. Or do you look down on them that they didn't show up in a Game seven? I would say the more impressive for me.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah. Considering where they were at the end of the year, you know, you still didn't really understand what the rotation was going to be. The defensive numbers that we had talked about. So to get it to a game seven with this group, because I. I just think, you know, even though you had the Strother game in Game six, you had some good Westbrook moments sprinkled in there when it's bad, when the spacing is terrible. And we'll get to some of the numbers with some of this stuff. Like, you. You understand, there's just incredible limitations. And, you know, I think the headline of today is, is Caruso and his defense and that OKC kind of found something because they abandoned the Chet Jokic idea. So it's crazy that that's the second round game, but game seven went the way I just thought. The Thunder, you know, despite some of the concerns, I thought they were the better basketball team.

[Bill Simmons]

And Gordon on one leg was kind of the decider if there was any hope of them gutting it out. You need him for 44 minutes at 100% speed, but, you know, put a lot of miles on, dude. Over the course of two weeks, they play 14 playoff games and he does a lot of stuff for them. He breaks down. I want to go big picture before we dive into the game, because I was thinking about, you know, this might be. I. I'm not saying the windows close for Denver, but they might be moving into a different part of the journey here with jokic in the 2000s. And I was thinking about how many teams the first half of the decade's now done, right. We're moving into this. We're now in the second part of the 2000s. And you have these teams that in the first part of the decade seem like they were going to be the defining teams of the decade. Right. Tatum, Celtics, Jokic's Nuggets, Giannis and the Bucks, Luka and the Mavericks had one more. Oh, and just like whoever. Whatever team has Curry and whatever team has LeBron and now it feels like all those windows are either closed or in danger of closing, which I just think is. Notice notable. I think this is a very strange season all of a sudden, where you have a final four of Indiana and the Knicks in Minnesota and okc. And I think all four of those teams are arrow pointing up, even not just for this year, but for next year too. And then everything else feels like they're like San Antonio, Houston might be coming. And then this whole other group of teams that have either already fell apart, like Phoenix, or this other group that felt pretty unassailable two years ago last year and now feels like they're on the outs. And I don't really know what the reasons. It's beyond injuries. I think the apron plays a little bit of it. But what, what do you, what do you think? Is this just the league now where we just every three years we just flip who's on top, basically?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Well, it could be, you know, whatever result we get and certainly if a Denver had won this game today and you're going, this is about as wide open a final four as I could ever remember.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Ryan Rosillo]

And now it feels like there's even more pressure on OKC considering what's on the East. Yeah. Even though there's part of me that really just doesn't want to overlook this Minnesota team. Um, but it's, it's been an easy run for them the first couple rounds here. So. Yeah, bigger picture. You know, I'd mentioned this before with the SEC and college football, where, well, eventually they were going to lose a national championship. Yeah, there was going to be a stretch. Now they haven't won one in back to back years, which seems odd, but it's like that's, that's more normal. But is it going to be the norm moving forward? We don't know that yet. Whatever result we end up with, I think it's two things. One, I'd have to see it happen a lot to be like, okay, it's just such a different version of basketball that the regular season is completely pointless because there's times where it feels like that. But I, I think you can factor in the age part of curry, LeBron, you could throw Durant in there, you know, the Bucks, basically. It wouldn't, it would make more sense that they would Be like this five years after a championship, four years after a championship.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, plus everything they traded to make that championship happen. Right. They shouldn't feel bad about where they are now because they. They pushed all their chips in. They got the title out of it. And I think the Celtics are a little bit of the same way. Pushed all their chips in last year. Now they have this giant tax bill coming and the dinner bill has arrived, you know, in a lot of ways.

[Ryan Rosillo]

And this may be the last version of a team that we ever see like this under the CBA with the Celtics. Now, if they'd won it and then were able to repeat, you know, maybe new ownership comes in and it's like the last thing we can do is after winning two, screw this. And probably just going to have to take the tax hit because we'd rather take that financial hit than the PR hit of all the new guys are here. And now they're dismantling a back to back champ. So I think the Celtics part of it with Tatum impacts this too. So when you go through all the different scenarios, you're like, okay, these individual things, but that second apron, I know we're going to do some of the. What are you going to do?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, we're doing that later.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I mean, you know, the realization of what this is and that it is a hard cap with a different name and you know, you're trying to figure out trades and. And then it's like, oh, hey, I have a match. And it's like, actually the team can't do this, or if they do this, then they're hard capped because of where they're at right now. So, you know, there might just be more parody. Like this may lead to more parity. And we also are coming off of like two iconic runs. You know, some people look at the Heat and try to dump on them for only getting two titles in four years. I think making it to four straight NBA Finals is something that should be celebrated. And then you've got the warriors putting together what I think is the best five we've ever seen in the history of this game. So we're coming off of like a decade of that into these last five years, and then looking forward with even more restrictions. So maybe we're just too influenced by thinking that that was normal when Miami and Golden State was. Was not normal.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it was kind of normal, though. I think what shifted, maybe, maybe there's.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Construction but not the success, because I don't think the success is normal.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, but we're going to talk about the Celtics later. And one of the things with them is you look at all the moves they made individually. Don't be sarcastic. You look at all the moves they made one by one. It's good drafting and good trades, right?

[Ryan Rosillo]

That was a little sauce.

[Bill Simmons]

But it's not like they traded five first round picks to get to where they were. Like they. But now they're screwed anyway, you know, And I, I think, okay, like, I actually think OKC and we should talk about the game. But OKC is probably the last team that has a chance to keep it going for seven, eight years because they have all these picks and eventually, like, they'll probably trade, do it this summer, regardless of what happens, because they can replace him, right? And you could probably send that money out, maybe bet on one of your draft picks or bet on a cheaper guy or whatever, but you can constantly be replenishing as long as you have SGA and Williams and maybe homegrown or maybe it's two of the three, but they have the best chance to do it. But you're also. They're going to be penalized too for the same thing. They did a great job building the roster. They did a great job assembling all those picks. And they're probably going to be screwed anyway once. Once like the MVP stuff kicks in, those little kickers, like, Cleveland is screwed. Rude with the Mobley thing. His salary went up 8 million bucks. We're gonna talk about them later too. They're $200 million for eight guys next year. They haven't made the conference finals. So I just think it almost feels like there's this reckoning coming where the salaries are gonna have to really shift. We talked about it the moment they did that cba and you and I were trying to figure it out and we were like, what is this? Why does it seem like this is bad for the players? Ultimately, I think this is the summer where it's gonna be bad for the players.

[Ryan Rosillo]

It's going to end up being historically bad because it just reminds me so many times throughout. I'm not trying to go super deep here, but in life, the way we label things, to lie to ourselves about what something really is. And after we did that pod, I ran into a couple guys from a front office shortly after, and somebody said like, hey, did you go through. I was like, yeah, Bill and I went through it. But you never feel like unless you're like a capologist or a lawyer, you're like, I'm. How, you know, how am I possibly Screwing this up or what are the unintended consequences? And I was like, man, it feels like a hard cap. And the guy just. I didn't. I didn't even know the guy. And he just looks at me and goes, it is a hard cap. Yeah, it is a hard cap. And I was like, okay, all right. So that confirms. And now that we've had a couple years of, like, looking at what this is going to be, you know, it's even more of a credit to Presti, who I believe was, like, in on the meetings on some of this stuff. So you're going to like this. It reminds me of, like, when Belichick would just always trade out of where he was in the first round. And then if you just keep doing it year after year, it's like, man, they have this many picks or they have another couple. Like, it felt like for years he had two firsts to maneuver around with because he just kept doubling down on the approach. Granted, it's worked a lot better for Presti than it did Belichick, but if he understood. If he understood all of this stuff. And we kept wondering, which is another conversation too, had OKC somehow lost this game at home in Game 7, does that mean that they're more motivated to start going off season shopping and packaging some of these assets? Or is it to the longer view of. Presti realizes all the restrictions, how hard it would be to keep together this roster, and that even if they win this whole thing, he has the flexibility to tweak and make tougher decisions because he just feels like he's stockpiling. And their track record would tell you they're better positioned than anybody to do so.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I mean, he has all these picks that enable him to basically, oh, I need to get out of this $25 million guy and move him into a $12 million guy, and I can reward another team with. It's the. The situation the Celtics are in right now because it's impossible for them not to do a trade. They're going to have to do one if they're over the second apron as badly as they are, which I think it's like 20 million. So, like, for instance, everyone's like, well, they'll trade Holiday or Porzingis. It's like, okay, well, who's. Who's taking them? What are the Celtics getting back to make the math work for the trade? And then how does that help them? You know? But I don't want to step in the Celtics thing. Let's do. Let's do okc. Why they won. Did you feel like they went through playoff puberty in this game? In some ways they were tight in the first quarter, like, legit. I felt like there was two guys that showed up for that first quarter. SGA and Caruso and everybody else. The sphincters were like this.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I'm glad you said that because it's exactly what I saw. And the Jalen Williams game six performance was so disappointing because then you're thinking, okay, what? Like, I don't even know what to expect from this guy. You know, somebody that was supposed to have his off playoff games, you know, maybe we're a little unfair. It's like, okay, you're a young guy. You weren't great against Dallas. You couldn't be counted on as that second scorer. Sga, like, you need that second guy to create on the ball when everything's a mess. And if you don't have it, you're so limited as a playoff team. And, you know, I think there was something to be desired there based on, you know, you can look at the final box scores of the Dallas series and be like, oh, it wasn't all that bad. It's just funny. I think that stuff becomes the most misleading stuff. Like there's some efficiency stuff that I'll look at with a player in a series and go, there's no way he was this, like, this is a bad reflection. These metrics are too rewarding to. However he played because just in the moment, you needed more from him. So he has that abominable Game six at Denver. And you know, look, I, I think it's fair to say, even for a guy like Jalen Williams, like at Denver, you know, going up against the best player in the world, you get the Strother game out of nowhere. I mean, he was wide open one because of Jokic and two, because I. It felt like okc, like, hey, do you want to guard this guy? He's like, no, we don't want to guard him at all.

[Bill Simmons]

So when the, the Nuggets had four guys like that, that OKC was like, go ahead.

[Ryan Rosillo]

There was, there was a couple five man stretches that Adelman like, even he had to be looking at the scorers table going, I can't believe I have to do this right now. But in that first quarter, I'm like, what's up with Hartenstein? Like, after he missed those two floaters in the baseline earlier in the series, it's like, does he not want to shoot that anymore? Jaylen Williams getting a couple open looks and there were so many open looks that were great looks in Game 6. And it looked like he was going to be tight again. And I'm thinking, I this can't possibly, like, he's not going to be this bad. Game six and game seven, is he. I mean, he had a three. You know, Denver's playing so much zone, they're collapsing the top for sga. So SGA is getting cut off. It's kind of working. And there's a kick out to the right side a little bit later in the game where Jalen Williams just turns it down. And I'm thinking, like, you don't even want to take like you. I remember you have to take this shot. But what I loved about game six is against that Denver zone, if you could find any way to collapse, there were all sorts of points waiting for you on guys just cutting on the baseline. And in the dunker spot. You saw more of that with the Chet. They had one play worth. Chet passed to Caruso and he made a layup. Caruso beat his man, and Dort was coming from the other side. Both baseline cutters are wide open. So, you know, there was a lot of stuff that I saw in six that I thought, if they can just go, hey, when they zone us, because they're going to like, crazy.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, Gordon Hurt, you knew the zone was going to be bigger, right? Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

So, you know, there's a lot of stuff, but the fact that Jalen Williams stepped up and played the way he did today, and I think there was like one drive where you could tell, okay, he's now feeling it a little bit. You could see his confidence was at a complete. He started to.

[Bill Simmons]

Started to attack. He was 42, 41. I'm not a live better and I'm also. Gambling's not legal in California, but it felt like the perfect live bet spot. Cause Gordon had given them a lot in the first quarter. Brown had made some shots. OKC missed everything from three. I think they were like 1 for 10 at some point. And you could just feel the game. You could feel it starting to shift potentially. And then.

[Ryan Rosillo]

And they hadn't taken any free throws when it was like, right.

[Bill Simmons]

And Denver had like 10 free throws, something like that. But that Caruso Wallace combo, which I think is going to be a real problem for Minnesota too. Like, I like he'd been thinking not to jump ahead to the next series, but you think like Connelly is like the one point guard. Then they'll bring. Edward Edwards will have the ball sometimes. Then it'll get weird with like Alexander, Walker and Defincenzo. And that's when these OKC guys feast. Like they're over the mid court line and they just come in waves where it's like, it's Crusoe Wallace. Now Dort's in too. Oh, wait, here's Jalen Williams. And they're just trying to make you uncomfortable over and over and over again. I think it's going to be a problem for Minnesota, but it became a problem for Denver and it was one of the worst. Russ, it wasn't. Russ wasn't just bad. He had like three or four passes where you're just going, what is that? This is game seven. How is that the pass you just threw? And then Strother and Watson, you know, it was no surprise turned into pumpkins. And Murray was not really playoff Jamal. And then Porter was playing with one arm and Gordon was playing with one leg and. And then Caruso became the star of the game. And I, I guess Caruso guarding Jokic, I feel like is a slight hit for the Jokic legacy, that Caruso was able to do that. But to defend Jokic, which I have to because I love Jokic, I really did feel like they were getting away with a lot with how they were pounding him physically, which they should have because they were getting away with it all serious. But I'm not really sure what Denver's supposed to do when they're defending him like that. I don't know what the move is like if you're just. You're putting smaller guys. They're planning, they're pushing, they're shoving. If he's turning around and going into them, he's just going to knock them over. It's an offensive foul, right? He's not fast enough to go by him. You don't have any spacing because nobody can shoot. So I'm not sure they finally like moved him to the top of the key like 25ft back to give him, try to give him more space. By that time it was too late. Not really sure what the move is, but I wonder if OKC might have stumbled onto a strategy with him. Now there's that many Carusos in the league, but like let's say it had been alternate universe. Celtics, Denver finals. Could Drew Holliday have guarded him like that? Like, could other teams? Do other teams have guys that could do that? Or is Caruso just that special?

[Ryan Rosillo]

I don't know how it would look for seven games, right?

[Bill Simmons]

I guess for one game you could.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Do it right Caruso might end up shooting, like, 10% from three because he's so exhausted the entire time. Look, Jokic could have been better today. Certainly, he wasn't a great Jokic. No. Some of the passing or it's just like, throwing it back to him, and he's turning the ball over because it's getting knocked out of his hands. Like, a couple were definitely on him. He had the one late where he tried to go right at Caruso at the top, and he just got stripped. There's another one from Murray where he's throwing him a buddy pass, and all Wallace has to do is just see it coming in. So I think there was a bunch of different things, but I think overall, if you're looking at Jokic just saying that he was the problem, I mean, the number of times that you're watching defenders, and I think over the course of a series, you get more and more comfortable with it being like, all right, well, if Westbrook hits a couple corner threes, we're okay with it. Like, as long as we try to stay in front of Murray at the top and then collapse on Jokic. Because, you know, you could sit there.

[Bill Simmons]

And say, well, after game six, same thing.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, they just left. I mean, there was at one point. I mean, the game was, like, basically over at this point, but I looked at it to see what Strother, Watson, and Westbrook were, and they were one of 4, 0, 6, and 2A7. So if you're not getting anything out of any of those guys, then good luck.

[Bill Simmons]

And then I had a porter, too. Like, as you're expecting, like, best case scenario, like a 15 and 7 something from him, but you weren't getting that.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Nothing, nothing. And, you know, at least you have to defend him as if he's going to shoot, but, like, it was just a bunch of bricks from him. You know, maybe you say, hey, Jokic needs to get deeper on the catch and then have crew. But then if you're doing that, there's just so much more traffic in there defensively that I think they want Jokic to have more space to get it outside of the elbow, to be able to turn and shoot, to turn and drive.

[Bill Simmons]

But also the further he goes away now I don't have his rebounding, and I got Gordon on one leg. And now OKC started killing them on the boards, too, which was another thing. But the turnovers, they had, I think, 23 turnovers halfway through the fourth quarter, which, if you have over 20 just in a normal NBA game, that's A lot. That's like, whoa. Didn't take care of the ball today. So the ball was, well, you're gonna lose. Yeah. Okay, so you had. At halftime, they're up 14. Cause they have this crazy run the last three minutes. They're five for 20 from three and they're up 14 and they have eight steals. And it's like, that's it. There's no road back for Denver. What you need like Christian Brown to have like 35 points. So you need some complete. Or you need Russia to flip it on. And by the way, how mad do you think the Clippers were watching this series with Russ? I think Russ was like -86 in the series. Games five, game six, game seven. He was like just universally atrocious. And you think like, he was one of the guys that swung that Clipper series and then turned into. He's another one who turned into a pumpkin. But I saw, I. If I'm the Clippers, I'm still looking back at that Round one being like, how. How did we not get past this team? Like, how what happened? You know. But they, to Denver's credit, they were able to play 14 playoff games. Somehow just to get OKC to seven, I thought was remarkable because I don't know, I just don't think the teams were close from a talent standpoint.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I don't know who can beat an entire team when every single defender is just like, all they really care about is you. And Murray's elimination game track record is terrific. He's got two 40 point games. He's got the 50 point game in there. So you wonder, you know, you're going to get another Murray moment out of this. The fact that he played as well as he did with the illness in game six. But you know, just over the course of a series, when you're going, okay, when Jokic does this, you know, and now it's like three, four, five, you know, in this case, seven games in a row. It's like when he does this, when he catches here, we're doing this and then everybody's just in tune. And when you wait around on OKC and then everybody starts flying around and the help is so good and they're so smart and all this stuff starts happening. I'm with you. I can't believe that Denver played 14 playoff games. I think that's well said.

[Bill Simmons]

The other thing with OKC is they have different looks like almost like a football team where they can be like, ah, we're just going to rush you conventionally now. We're bringing in six defensive backs. Oh, now we're blitzing from this side. And you just kind of never know what to expect. So I'm sure mentally just trying for Jokic. He was like a supercomputer trying to basically diagnose the problems that he can solve. And just the lineups keep changing over and over again. They were bringing. It was almost like they were like a hockey team bringing dudes in and out. The second quarter, I think OKC is going to win the title, and I'd be really surprised if they didn't. But the seeds were planted for how it wouldn't happen. Where you need a team that would just be able to go toe to toe with them and make them nervous like they were at parts of game six, like they were in that first quarter today. And you leverage their youth against them, I guess would be the recipe. But I, I just don't see anybody beating them. I think they're. I, I said this to you last week. I think, I think what they do on defense is the best thing anyone's doing right now. And I don't, I don't. Could there be. I'm trying to think of like the Knicks, like those five guys, the way they played in the second half of Game four, the way they played for all the Game six. Five guys that have not, I don't think, have gotten a ton of reps together as a five, as a healthy five, some. Maybe. Maybe there's a ceiling there that maybe game six is a little more representative of that maybe Indiana, their depth and, you know, their style of play and just their pace and how comfortable they are all playing with each other. Maybe that could be something. And maybe Minnesota with. With the ant piece and then the Randall just really punishing anybody who's smaller than him. Maybe there's some level there, but I can't see anyone touching okc, can you?

[Ryan Rosillo]

No, you're right. Like when you think about football teams, you go, which is the best unit? OKC's defensive unit. And the numbers would back it up. And I think the other part of it is the thing that you loved about them all regular season is this team can go one big, they can go two bigs, and both bigs actually complement each other and they don't zero bigs.

[Bill Simmons]

We found out today they don't need a big. Alex caruso as a 6, 4 setter.

[Ryan Rosillo]

There's times where, you know, against Memphis, it didn't really matter. But then I remember, I think it was even in Game 1 with Dagnault, where I'm thinking, like, he's coaching this game. Like, he's down 20. Like, is he experimenting in game one for the rest of this series? And then they have that small lineup today just to kind of pour on their adaptability. And so whenever you look at the playoffs, you're like, hey, they're deep and they'll do all this stuff. It's like, yeah, you really only want to play seven games, or, excuse me, seven guys, and. And be who you are. That's. That's completely, like removing. The thing that I've liked the most about them all season long is on paper and based on watching them play all season long, their depth, or sometimes we can overrate the depth part of it a little bit. Like, I was still surprised in the Pacers. I'm like, they're in these playoff games and they're playing 10 guys in the first quarter. Like, that's. That's unheard of. And it's working for them. Maybe it's because of their style. And again, we'll see what happens here with the Knicks. But there's part of me, because I thought OKC was so good had they lost this game. It's like, so do I have to just completely eliminate teams that have all this malleability with their roster? Because that is their greatest strength, and I think we saw that in this series.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, it's like we say every spring when we're doing these. How many guys do you actually have? Right. I think the Knicks in that last series, they have seven guys now. Now that Robinson can give them 15 minutes a game. And McBride has been, I think, a really good bench player all season. They have seven, which I think you can win the title with seven guys. Indiana has 10. We'll see if they get into a really hard series, how many people that number actually is. But it. It probably is eight. You know, and then maybe Obie Toppin, maybe that's nine. But you could work there. Minnesota as a team. I'm really interested to see what that number ends up being, because you have Nas and Gobert, you have Rando, you have ant. So there's four. DeFensenzo Conley, as the playoffs go along with his age. We'll see. That's six. Maybe Alexander Walker.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, well, he's definitely.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, some at 7, and that's probably it. OKC, they might have 9 or 10. I mean, I think Wallace, I, you know, I've loved him all year. I. I always put him in my ring or 100 voting. Even though I think he plays like 19 minutes a game, but I just think they're bringing dudes out.

[Ryan Rosillo]

The.

[Bill Simmons]

Isaiah Joe's not even playing for them. I really like Isaiah Joe Wiggins. I really like. I almost feel like Wiggins is probably like, fuck, I could probably play 30 minutes for 20 teams in the league. So. So I guess that's what we're going to find out with with Minnesota because they're going to need everybody and they're going to be coming at Connolly. They're going to be. They're going to be pressuring Ant, and I. I don't think it's a great matchup for them. What do you think the line is?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Just out of curiosity for game one.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. No. OKC. Minnesota as a series.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Minus 175. OKC.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm going to say higher. I'm going to say minus 300. And the answer is. Ooh, minus 375.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Jesus.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I think Minnesota has a better chance than that, right?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

That seems with the way Randall's playing.

[Ryan Rosillo]

The first, the game one line is huge. I mean, I already looked at it because I was like, is there a game one scenario there where you go, Minnesota, easy path so far grind for okc Having to play in Denver that whole time and the fact that the Western Conference has the quicker turnaround than the Eastern Conference on this one is brutal. But they had to do that in case there was going to be a game seven. So it's minus seven and a half for the. For game one. I mean, to me, that screams Minnesota plus the seven and a half. Feeling like you're hoping to get OKC a little hungover from this series.

[Bill Simmons]

If I'm betting against okc, I'm just betting the money line in a game because it feels like they just. They cover those bigger spreads and their defense if they're up 10, if they're up 12, all of a sudden it's 20 before you blink. But the. I'd rather just take the go right against them. Hey, time for a special part of the show brought to you by Workday. Are you a forward thinker? I feel like you're a forward thinker. Then you need an HR and finance platform that thinks like you do. Workday is the AI platform that helps propel your organization, your workforce and your entire industry into the future. Workday moving business forever forward. Watching OKC today, I felt myself get relieved yet again that they didn't end up with the seventh pick in the 2025 NBA Draft. Cause that would have sucked. Cause we got really close. We had two. Two teams jumping Philly there, and OKC could have added the seventh pick to everything we're watching right now where they're already so deep they have guys who are playing 10, 15 minutes less. Jaylen W. J Will. The other Jalen Williams, I don't even think he played in the first three quarters. That guy. That guy would have played 30 minutes for the Celtics in the. In the Knicks series.

[Ryan Rosillo]

And the craziest thing, too, is you'd watch the series, you know, like, here's a guy that scores three points a game. He's a complete afterthought on offense, and yet his body and his strength was like a nice little like, hey, go in there and hack Jokic. Like to think that the third center that they don't even need plays a significant role at times defensively in this series because, you know, it's a bit like the cat thing. At least last year, where you go, okay, at least we have a huge, big body type that's strong and can fight for position. Because you're just going to need some of those minutes with Jokic. So you're just not allowing him to get deep. I mean, because every time that Jokic got shut, his just eyes lit right up. It was like, okay. And you could see Degnalt was like, I want to end up with Chad.

[Bill Simmons]

That was the way less than the.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Beginning of the series.

[Bill Simmons]

How many. If you did the player by player on each team. So Jokic. Let's remove Jokic, Gordon and Murray. The fourth best guy in the Nuggets was Brown, and the fifth best guy was probably Porter. Is that fair for the Nuggets?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, I think. I mean, even though he's disappointing, I don't. Who else are you picking?

[Bill Simmons]

So it has to be him, right? Supporter with one shoulder. Does he get on the court for that OKC team? Their fifth best guy, does he play a minute in that series for them?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Well, he's not playing over Caruso. He's not playing over.

[Bill Simmons]

He's not playing over Caruso. Do Wallace. So cross that off. Is he playing over Wiggins? I don't think so.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Five, six, seven, Wiggins. Michael Porter Jr. At his peak.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm saying the guy we just watched the last two weeks. I don't think he plays for them in that series.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, I don't.

[Bill Simmons]

And nobody else does either.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I don't think Wiggins was. Was all that necessarily in this series.

[Bill Simmons]

No, but at least he's healthy. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. We all have our routines during the playoffs. I'm the same man who once wore the same T shirt every single day during the 2003 baseball playoffs. I am the same person who will tell my wife to come into the room when I need a team to win because she's good luck during the NBA playoffs. These are things that happen. Well, Michelob Ultra are a great addition to any game time routine. It is a superior lap beer. It's really great. And they're getting fans closer to the game with exclusive prizes including courtside seats to see your favorite team play. Sign memorabilia. Lots more. Enter for your chance to win at mcglobultra.com Courtside McGlob Ultra Superior Access Courtside 2024-2025 Sweepstakes. No purchase necessary. Open a US residence 21 or older. Ends on July 1, 2025. Multiple entry periods. Visit michelobreltra.com superioraccess/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and official rules. Message and data rates may apply. Void. We're prohibited. All right, let's play. Let's play. Do you want to talk about the two series coming up or do you want to do what do you do?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Whatever, man. I'm ready to go.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, let's do what do you do first? Because we can talk about Denver. They have Jokic, Murray and Gordon at 124 million last year. Next year they have Porter making 38.3 next year, 40.8 the year after, and we're going to find out he has like a torn labrum or some terrible injury. They have Najee at 8, Braun at Brown at 5 and Sarge at 5.4. Player option. Do you want to report now on Sarge? 5.4. You want, you want to do a breaking?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, we're going to go ahead and confirm that.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, so he's picking it up. Okay.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah. Well, I just don't know who's paying him with the limited cap space.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but it's saying he's picking that one up. Why? That's not a one year deal. You could ask Calvin Booth, who's no longer the GM of the Denver Nuggets. They have their own first and 26 and 28. They're 27 and 29. First are top five protected. Going to OKC. They do not have a lot of flexibility to improve the roster. Uh, they were well under the second apron this year. They had like seven, I think six, seven million to play with and just didn't get whoever. But we always talk about this Every February, like, go get a buyout guy. It's like, well, who. Who are the buyout guys? There weren't really any good ones this year. Um, but the team, the roster wasn't good enough. Westbrook has a player option that I think he probably opts into, too. Cause that's like three and a half. So they might be stuck with him again, whether. Whether you consider it stuck or not. But going to be a tough roster to improve. And meanwhile, all these other teams in the west are getting better, which is why I led in the first segment with. You start to worry about the windows with this stuff, because if this is the nucleus and you're just bringing this back and hoping everybody's healthier, I don't think that's going to be enough. In the west, as great as Jokic.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Is, I know we're probably going to fall on a lot of this. Of, like, what do you do? But if Porter Jr. Has, like, I. Sometimes I see him written about, like, he's this awesome trade asset, and he's. That. You're like, if he was any good, they wouldn't want to get rid of him. And the numbers are massive. I mean, it's 38 next year, 40.1 in two years. And he just appears to be a guy that, even at his peak, you know, was more aware defensively, which is being nice. He rebounded a little bit more. He stretches the floor. You just wish you were more aggressive. It doesn't happen for him to the point where, you know, it ended up being a huge issue in that Clipper series where he got benched before he was hurt. And even Jokic was like, look, it's the playoffs. If you're not. If you're not into it now, I mean, that's his teammate saying, which really doesn't happen very often. So if you're moving them out, you're not moving them out for some other player. That's this massive upgrade in solution, because it's not like the rest of these executives aren't seeing these games and know that generally, with his talent, his size, and his shooting ability, he should be a better player. So if he's available, what are you actually getting for him?

[Bill Simmons]

Bradley Beal, that was a joke for people not watching this. But that's. You're. You're. You're shopping. You're not shopping at. At Whole Foods or Bristol Farms. You were. You were shopping at a pretty grossly kept grocery store. When you're shopping Michael Porter around, like, where you're picking up the Ground beef going, ooh, this might have been here for a while. That's who you're looking at, like, say.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Cam Johnson was available. Like, why would they.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, they're never getting. Yeah, and he's on a better contract too. So I don't really know what they do. And it'll be interesting because Jokic has done a great job over the years of doing the whole. I'm just here to play basketball. I leave every summer. I don't really have any opinion on anything. He's never really come out and said, I need help, I need more. He's just not wired like that. But if he was ever going to do it any summer, I think it would be this one. I still feel like that Jokic, Murray Gordon, as a three person foundation can compete for a title because we just saw it and the rest of the supporting cast has been bad all year and it failed them at the worst possible time. I don't really know the answer. I guess it comes down to that Porter deal. Whether you feel like, would you have to attach a pick for it? Could you find the right GM who really likes him as an asset and gets excited about it? I don't know. Are you looking at like you're talking to Milwaukee and hoping maybe they talk themselves into him and it's like, all right, we'll take Kuzma back and something else and get two guys, turn them into two guys and then where are you anyway? All right, the Celtics. So I haven't talked to you. We haven't talked on a pod since the Tatum injury. The numbers are grim next year and they were a lot less grim if it was a team that made the eastern finals or the finals and they had cash, some playoff money this year and you felt like, you know, they were headed for something special. And instead the season abruptly ends. Tatum is out probably for next season. Who knows? Their starting five next year is $188 million. Their top nine is 205 million. That's not counting our cornet who are free agents. Total salary is going to be around 227, approximately. Second apron is 207. So they have a huge tax bill plus a repeater tax. And with Tatum's injury, I don't see any way that they don't try to get under that second apron, do you?

[Ryan Rosillo]

I don't know which owner would go into next year going, yeah, let's just run it back again. I still think that they were going to be pretty proactive about trying to figure out a way to Save. Even if they'd won the whole thing, I mean, it just was going to be tough. And so we've already covered the PR part of it of the first thing you do is start saving money. But it's a little different when you're spending 6 billion on a team as opposed to a few hundred million like it used to be back in the day for these teams. So true. The Drew contract. I think all of us probably deserve a redo on not going like, hey, he's a great guy and he's such a good leader and he's so good on defense. You're like, what those numbers again? I mean, it's three years, 105 million for Drew Holiday.

[Bill Simmons]

You can't do next year. 35, 37 player option. You want to report it now, probably.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Pick that one up.

[Bill Simmons]

KP is 30.7 next year and then it expires. But the thing is, they won the title last year. That was the price of doing business. They had to take care of Holiday before the playoffs started because he didn't know if he was staying or going. They didn't want that hanging over. They had to extend Pritchard as part of the Porzingis as part of the deal and they won the title. So, you know, when you win the title, it's. It's hard to be critical. But then when you look at these numbers, it's like, holy mackerel. I still feel like Drew would have real value for somebody because there's. It's not a good free agent market. And I think he's the type of person that you always hear younger teams want to get like the, you know, the veteran who's been in a lot of big spots, who's a glue guy who doesn't care about his own stats. We need. Is he. Do you wish if you're trading for him that he was making 22 instead of 32? Probably. But it feels like that's one and then KP is an expiring. I don't know. I guess we have to find out what's wrong with him and we still don't know. For some reason. This is the most covered up illness, whatever that I can remember where even like people around the team won't talk about it. I still don't know what it is.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Porzingis has missed 65 games since he's been with the Celtics. So when they made the trade, and you think about the ceiling version of it, because the ceiling version of it's really good. He stretches the floor, defends the rim. But this past year was a disaster. I mean, they were 18.7 points better per 100 possessions with them off the fourth floor. So even with the 30.7 million left on this deal, I don't know why anybody trades for that. I mean, again, all of these guys are tradable. So I'm not saying they're these movable contracts, but I'm surprised that you're so bullish on the market. For Drew, I would feel like, with 105 million, I'm not him.

[Bill Simmons]

I wouldn't use the word bullish. I think it's doable, though.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Doable or you have to attach something to it. I mean, that's a ton for him.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know if you would have to attach, but maybe I'm being naive because I'm trying to factor it in. So there's 30 teams in the league, and 10 of them every summer are like, we're one guy away from really being interesting. The problem is there's really no free agents this year. There's nobody to like, oh, this guy, that guy. There's, you know, it's like a lot of the Bruce Brown types, right? And the price for the Bruce Brown types and the free agency, you're always higher than you think. Right. It's like. Or like Caldwell Pope last year, you know, Caldwell Pope got what, 22. 22 a year? You know, I. The problem for them is I didn't. I didn't think Drew was not good in the Knick series. I mean, other than game five. I didn't think. I just didn't think he played well.

[Ryan Rosillo]

He's coming off his worst year in a really long time.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

On top of everything else, he was.

[Bill Simmons]

Going to turn it on for the playoffs, and he just didn't.

[Ryan Rosillo]

So if you're taking back a worse player with a shorter contract for a ton of money, okay, maybe if you think you're getting an asset back that's a rotational guy for this team next year and sending out, you know, him making 37 million plus at what, 37 years old? 36 to 37, it's. That's a huge ask. Granted, it's a player option, but again.

[Bill Simmons]

How'S there 10 who had. It might be a little tradable, but. Yeah, I'm with you. I see it the same way as you. The whole. Oh, yeah, they'll trade guys and get under the second apron. I. I definitely spent a couple hours looking at all the teams, and you'd be surprised how many teams are just immediate Cross offs. Either they don't have the thing to trade back, or they wouldn't be interested in the first place. So.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Well, you know what it gets back to, right?

[Bill Simmons]

What.

[Ryan Rosillo]

If you were, all right, you just bought the team and you hit me up? You're like, what should I do? You've already made it up.

[Bill Simmons]

I would have caught you. It would have been one of my first, like 10 calls. I just would have wanted your advice.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I would say, and I hate that I'm.

[Bill Simmons]

It would've gone right to voicemail, and then I would've had a call back and you would answer.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Far too often, all of us just say, hit the magic reset button. As if there's all of these scenarios out there for these teams to get better and not realizing the teams are trying to compete and be a little bit better. But next year without Tatum is most likely a lost cause. And Jalen, as expensive as he is, he's an NBA Finals MVP and he's still young enough that I would try to flip him and look at next year as like this gap year of getting in some kind of assets to then reset. Because you're going to have to reset it around Tatum anyway. Al's going to be gone.

[Bill Simmons]

So you're looking at the 2020 warriors scenario of, let's just take our lumps for one year and try to be ready. Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

And it. Look, it doesn't. Doesn't guarantee anything. And it'd be a lot easier to say, hey, Jalen's a really good player and he'll be the number one option and it's going to be fine. And, you know, who knows, get it to the playoffs, you see what will happen. But I think you're just then delaying all of these other decisions that you're going to have to make. So I would hope, if I'm. If I'm, you know, again, the Celtics, a lot of these things are connected. If Houston were to miss out on Giannis. Right. Say Giannis isn't real forceful about it. Milwaukee kind of goes to the default of like, hey, run this back. But granted, I think we'll have a Giannis conversation here anyway. At some point, you may be getting in front of something you probably have to do in 2026 anyway, and then resetting this thing around Tatum. And it would be really bold. It'd be probably hard to do because it's a new ownership group that doesn't have the equity of Wick and his group, or Wick was explaining it. Ownership that never spared any expense that you know, they could probably pull it off quicker than who's this new guy? And then they just traded Jaylen Brown. But I'm serious, like, I think I would try to figure out a way to get a few assets back and, and reset the salary deck that way and then hope, you know, granted, you got to be right around the things you're bringing back in around Tatum and do it that way because you may be getting in front of something you have to do pretty soon and it's probably going to be a lot less options. What do you think?

[Bill Simmons]

So I don't know who to blame for this second apron thing because I think the owners are just going to try to get away. They're trying to protect themselves from themselves, they're trying not to spend too much money and they want all these checks and balances. This is what's, what's been the case for all professional sports forever. They want to protect themselves from themselves, from the 4, 5, 6, 7 people in the league who are like, I don't care, like Bomber Ishba, I don't care. I don't care what stuff costs. I'm just going to pay, I'm just going to throw money around. And everybody has. So they put this infrastructure in, but the players union, who is always run poorly and always does a bad job with this stuff. And this is the worst thing they've ever done because what they've created is a league where you can't keep Tatum and Brown together and you can't keep core people together because you can't afford to do it. And if you try to keep the two together, you can't put anyone else around them. So this is just the way it is and you're going to have these three four year windows and then you're going to have to blow it up. And this is just what we have, which is not, I don't think what professional sports is about. I think professional sports is about. I have these guys, I followed them their whole careers. We drafted them or they showed up or I've watched them go through their prime and then age with them. And you know, if we're just going to be this like transactional league now, I don't think that's good for anybody. So when I think of like the Brown trade, it probably is the one that makes the most sense on paper. But that means we're splitting up Tatum and Brown, which is something I never wanted them to do. And it might be the only move you might be right because, you know, like looking at Houston. If Houston was going to say, we'll take Jalen, Andrew and we'll give you Van Vliet back and Jabari and Eason, and we'll give you the 10th pick and you'll save like $20 million. We can make it work with our cap, and that gets you under the second apron right there and gets you a rebuild. I think they would have to think about deals like that. Then if you're Houston and you can get Jalen and Drew in the same trade and give up assets, but not touch Thompson and not touch Sengun and, you know, keep enough going, that's the type of trade. But I just. For me, it's like trading Jalen is an all time last resort. There has to be a better option.

[Ryan Rosillo]

What are your expectations for next year?

[Bill Simmons]

Not good.

[Ryan Rosillo]

So why play it out another year?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, it becomes a question of do you want the person to stay in the city for his entire prime, or in this case, the two people together.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, be nice. But now you don't get that option for 25, 26.

[Bill Simmons]

You don't.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I'd add something else onto the Houston thing because I think the Giannis thing is going to be a big influence on, like, how does Houston do all the legwork for some sort of Giannis deal and then it's just pulled backs out or. Yeah, right.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, like, if you're Giannis, like, I'm. I would rather kind of stay in the east if I felt like my team could be almost good enough. Right. The east is going to be awful next year compared to the wet. Like, if you're just removing Boston from the picture next year in the east and, you know, God only knows what's going to happen with Cleveland because they're way over the apron. I might rather. I might rather stay in the east than go to Houston and be in this, like, juggernaut of a conference against all these awesome teams. I don't know. Does that guarantee me anything? Plus, Giannis already won a title, which I think everybody forgets when they. I don't think he's decided anything, but he already won the title. I think he just wants to be in a good team. I don't think it's about like, I need a ring. He won a title.

[Ryan Rosillo]

It was the most talked about thing at the combine.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Let's hear it. You were in Chicago for three days.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah. And I. I'd say, like, the conversations are kind of all over the place that it's definitely happening, that, you know, it's. Or the other side of it is that he actually hasn't initiated any of this stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

I think that's true.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I've talked to teams that spoke with his agent where it's like, if anything were to happen, you know, we're kind of, like, hinting in these areas of, like, semantics. It's like, hey, nothing's really happened. But if anything were to happen, I think the most important thing to remember is that it's probably not a free market kind of deal where Milwaukee's going to be telling Giannis and his agent, hey, guess what we did today? All right? Even with control for a couple of years here, you know, the standard usually is for somebody at this level, we're talking about one of the three best players in the world, that he's going to have input on where he would be going. Now, if he's open to four or five different teams, then, you know, this is a different transaction. As opposed to guys in the past where it's like, hey, I have a year left on my deal, and if you trade me anywhere else, like, I'm not going to resign. So then that destroys the trade market, and then it's like, all right, how many switches can we throw in this thing to make it look like it was that good of a trade? And you're kind of screwed. Which I think is another conversation that you would have if you're the Bucks going, okay, if Giannis is fine with it, okay. And I know I've said that in the past, like, if he told me, hey, I'm good with Milwaukee, that's all I need to hear. And you Hope to win 4850 games, and. And to your point, see what's going on in the East, I mean, it's not the worst scenario, but if I'm getting the feeling like it's going to be way worse in 26, then I might just want to get this thing over with now and bring back players.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you think maybe, like, is. Is Kuzma gonna be in the team next year? And they're like, yes, like, okay, I'd like to revisit my options.

[Ryan Rosillo]

You're just gonna keep scrolling right on this. On this one?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, Just keep. Just keep going left.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Keep going, keep going.

[Bill Simmons]

There's one more year there.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Wait, that's not option. No.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, let me ask you this. With Giannis, though, what if he says to Milwaukee, I've decided I want to be traded? They're like, okay, but I only want to be traded. Golden State, that's where I want to go. And I won you a title, and I've been an awesome buck, and I've been here since 2013, and I represented the community in an amazing way, and all I've done is kick ass for you guys. And if you're going to trade me, I'd like to go to Golden State. So now, what do you do if you're the Bucks?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Like, well, that's really nice.

[Bill Simmons]

It's cool.

[Ryan Rosillo]

But we like a lot of other potential pieces more than Kaminga.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that's looking like Draymond Kaminga and all of their picks and a million swaps, I guess. And that's not a headliner.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I would not.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe Pods is in there.

[Ryan Rosillo]

There's no way I'm bringing Draymond in to be like, okay, we need more from you on offense because now Curry's not running around you for a decade, so.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, how about what Randall did to him? That ended the Defensive Player of the Year debate. Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I thought it strengthened his case, considering everything that he had to deal with in Houston. But Randall. I mean, Randall's just off the charts right now.

[Bill Simmons]

Wait, so this leads me to Cleveland, though. Just talking about Giannis, quickly.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you want to be the Milwaukee GM or the Cleveland GM for this phone call?

[Ryan Rosillo]

I'll stay with Milwaukee.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. I'll be the Cleveland gm. I'll be Kobe Altman.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Hey, Kobe.

[Bill Simmons]

Hey, Mobley. For Giannis, straight up, what do you think? We could do the deal on July 1st when Mobley's kicker comes in? Straight up. He's six and a half years younger. Call it in right now.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Done.

[Bill Simmons]

You're done if you're Milwaukee.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I think I'm done. If I'm Cleveland, too. I think I'm doing it. I think it's a great trade. And I don't even know if you had to say one side has to throw in something else. Which team would you pick to have to throw something else in? Giannis is a better player, but Moby's six and a half years younger.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I mean, what else would you want from Milwaukee? There's no picks, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Right. Some sort of, I guess, some swap in 20, 32. Anything, really.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Fair trade, you know? Can you send us AJ So we can do an aj Sam Merrill, back court.

[Bill Simmons]

Can you sign and trade Kevin Porter Jr. And keeping him? No, I think that trade makes a lot of sense to me, and I know they love Mobley, though, an option.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Or is he two years?

[Bill Simmons]

So Mobley turns 24 in June. He is an option, and Giannis is 30. He turns 31 in December. Cleveland is really screwed with no first round picks this year in 27, 29 and swaps with Utah. So they have no their picks. Things done. I guess the question for Cleveland is do you overreact to what happened in those playoffs or do you say eh, Garland was hurt, Mobley missed game two, the series got away from us. We're still really good. We won 64 games. And if you think that Garland wasn't super important, everything we did then you didn't watch us this season. Cause he was our backcourt was the single biggest. Like basically OKC's defense was the best and they had their backcourt was the best thing that they had and Garland wasn't Garland in that series. So that's what you would talk yourself into. And their role players sucked. Stru sucked. Jerome was super disappointing. That's where you would say let's give this one more year. Counter would be. You could have a team that has Donovan, Mitchell, Darius, Garland and Giannis on it in a weakened east and I think you're immediately the favorites in the East.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, the only reason I'd be so quick on the Milwaukee side is that I'm, I'm emphasizing I'd rather do something now. If I get the hint that it's like, okay, we're fine for now, but I'm going to have to do this all over again next year with another year of miles on Giannis, there's probably another just little nagging injury that'll happen. I mean this guy is on an all time tear. He was great again this year. I don't have a negative thing to say about him. I mean, hell, the fact that he addressed the Halliburton's dad thing the way that he did, where he composed himself, thought about what he was going to say and gave you this incredibly like heartfelt answer. You know, he just, I'm such a huge fan of this guy, not only because of stuff like that, but knowing that when he takes the floor he wants to kill everybody out there and I want to see him get another run. So I realized like I'm losing the trade on talent out for talent in and wondering, okay, like even the best version of Mobley, it's likely he's not going to be finishing top five in the MVP race like five years in a row. And I think Giannis is going to be what, like seven years in a row, top four, something like that. So we all love him, we all think it's fantastic, but it would be okay. Comparing Mobley to the rest of the potential, like make believe stuff that we're doing here, it's better than maybe even a men Thompson. It's better than the number two pick or the number three pick. I mean, some of the stuff that I've read in the days removed from the combine of like Houston, if they were going to do something in San Antonio, was going to do something of like, what they wouldn't trade. It's like, look, Castle had a nice year, but Giannis like, give me a fucking break. You're going to have to trade Castle. Houston has these pieces where it's like, dude, they're not doing it for Cam Whitmore. You don't get to keep everybody. Yeah, you're going to have to like Jabari or Jalen Orish and goo like one of the three has to go and then you're figuring out the rest of the part.

[Bill Simmons]

And if it's Jalen two of the three for that.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, right, right. Cause like, oh, no. Amen. No Tari. No Reed Shepherd. No Sengon. Don't give up on Jalen yet.

[Bill Simmons]

We with the Milwaukee we. I just have to mention this, even though we talk about every time we talk about this, they don't have any of their picks. So it makes no sense for them to do a dump trade. Which is why the mobile thing was so interesting to me that they could bring back somebody that would keep them competitive and somebody they could build around and then hope, oh, when Dame comes back, maybe we'll be pretty good and maybe we'll have cap space in two years. Like there's light at the end of the tunnel where right now they don't have any. And I think it gets. When you don't have your own picks, it just gets so complicated with the rebuild because it's not really a rebuild. You don't have your picks. Brooklyn's in that spot too. And they made that crazy trade with Houston last year to get their picks back so they could feel better about basically tanking, which is what the league is now. And the league rewards that. And this goes back to the second apron discussion. The league rewards that over actually shrewdly building a smart team and putting your roster together the right way and winning trades and drafting now it's like, you know, what you should actually do is just throw away four seasons in a row, accumulate a lot of picks, take some of those picks and keep trading and get more picks down the road. So you have this never ending fountain of picks and then eventually, hopefully you strike oil with a Couple and you can have a contender, and then you could thwart the second apron that way. Which is basically what Utah's trying to. Utah is basically emulating what OKC did. Right. Houston's emulating it to some degree, but that's, I guess, what the league would rather see people do.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah. I also think there's, like a conversation in there about, you know, was there so much freedom of movement and so many players dictating things that they put enough restrictions in there? It was like, okay, you can be as mad as you want. You can watch to go there, but now I legally can't even do the thing that you want to do. Now, granted, it's about to your point, giving yourself a credit limit on a card that even though you could afford a higher credit limit, you're like, I need to figure out a way to curtail this. Because it's not. It's not just, you know, sometimes we lose sight of this. It's not, oh, well, they're keeping spending down across the board. It's like, well, no, that comes down to the negotiated split on the basketball revenue. So whatever the basketball revenue is and whatever the split is that's agreed upon, like, that money's going to the players. So the lower. The lower apron or, you know, granted, the caps going up every time, but whatever the money is, it only hurts the players in those off seasons. It's going to hurt them individually. But collectively, these guys are still making what's agreed to with all this stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

So, yeah, like, Mitchell was a good example last year. We talked about that last summer, that he kind of ran out of options, and it actually made the most sense for him to stay with Cleveland, which I think is part of what they were designing the CBA around to kind of nudge people to staying where they are. But ironically, now you have this new issue where the Celtics, you might be right. They might have to trade Jaylen Brown just to write the ship financially for a year during this tragic Tatum injury. And then, so now you have a different problem. You still have the problem of stars not staying where their cities are. You know, which is why the SGA thing, I think the SGA thing is what people. I personally think that's what people want to revisit for. I think they want to root for Edward staying in Minnesota and staying there for a while and starting to win titles. They want to. They want to root for Curry at age 37, trying to win one last time in Golden State. Everything Kobe did for, you know, two decades in la, that's what people care about, that's what they respond to. And we're unfortunately going to start moving away from it, it feels like.

[Ryan Rosillo]

But if it means more parity and if we're seeing the first post season of something that becomes more the norm, which I'm not ready to say. I mean, this could be a political. It might be.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, it's definitely this season's definitely something. I don't know if it's a new thing going forward, but it's definitely some sort of era ended and some sort of new era is here and I don't know how to really put my hands around it yet.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, I'm not ready to make any definitive statement about what we have for playoff teams. But if it is, if there is more parity and it's not just three guys teaming up and going somewhere, whether it's through free agency or demanding trades and the next mad guy going, I'm mad. I want out. And I'm only going there. And we just all accepted it. Was that better?

[Bill Simmons]

No. The good thing is that era is over. Well, that was the longest segment we've ever done. You can learn more about [e-mail] we're going to take a break and come back because I, I want to talk about Golden State as well, but we're staying on YouTube. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. Every basketball team that's still alive in the playoffs has one thing in common. Their key trades and signings throughout the season paid off, giving each team the talent needed to make a run at the championship. With a small business. Your success directly depends on the new talent you add to your team. And a great place to find that talent is LinkedIn. They know hiring is a big deal for small businesses, not only because small businesses are wearing so many hats, but also because every hire is crucial for a growing company. That's why LinkedIn pairs you with the best candidates, using data you won't find anywhere else. From unique skills and interests to the connections you have in common. LinkedIn also lets you go beyond candidates who are actively applying in a given week. 171 million LinkedIn members aren't actively seeking jobs, but they are open to new opportunities. That's a big pool to miss out on. So find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com Simmons that's LinkedIn.com Simmons to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. There's still a Lot of stigma around mental health. Let's change that. This Mental Health Awareness Month. Let's encourage everyone to get support when they need it. And if you're not sure where to find that support, check out BetterHelp. With a network of over 30,000 licensed therapists, they can help you find the right therapy fit. We're all better with help. Visit betterhelp.combillSimmons to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H E L p.combillSimmons this episode is presented by State Farm. On the basketball court, the best players know when to pass. And off the court, you still need teammates who are there when it counts. That's where State Farm comes in. With agents to help you find coverage that's right for you. You can focus on what really matters, whether that's hitting game winners or just getting through the day like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. State Farm coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. Okay, Golden State. Golden State's probably in the worst shape out of the four. The four. What did you do? Teams that just got eliminated because they have all their first. Basically, Miami has their first this year, but they have 26, 28, 29, and 31. And they basically have 32. They made this weird trade with Washington where they get the pick if it's 1 through 20, and Washington gets it if it's 20 through 30. So they basically have it. Draymond's got two years left. Curry and Butler have two years left. They're basically locked into that core for 140 million. And Peyton and Looney are UFAs. And then Kaminga is the sign and trade piece. I personally think somebody's going to sign a trade for Kaminga. Minga would be my guess, because I think it's limited for agents, and I think there's enough there to fool you into thinking He's a $15 to $20 million guy. Some GM will be fooled. I'm dubious of it. But what do you think?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, you're right. The free agent list is so bad. And that's why it's so funny. It's like, well, there's not that much cap space. It's like, okay, but is there not that much cap space and guys aren't going to get paid? Or are a couple guys going to get paid a ton of more than we thought because there's no one to pay? So if I'm the Nets, I'm probably not looking to get into the Kaminga business at A huge number because it's probably pretty stupid. I think the best version of Kaminga, unless, you know, everything clicks and he totally figures it out. It's probably like, all right, you run out there with a bad team and score your 20 points. A game like this dawned on me during some of the Jalen Green struggles and Kaminga playing really well. Where I had said in my pod, I was like, is Kaminga Jalen Green Green with less opportunity? Which is. Seems like it's, it's kind of insulting to a Jalen Green. I'm not even sure that I'm two.

[Bill Simmons]

Guys that should end up on Charlotte.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So just putting up stats, the thought.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Popped in my head and I actually think that's unfair to Jalen Green. So I'm, I'm not, that's not my conclusion. It's just, hey, I'm sharing some thoughts every now and then. What like the non taxpayer mid levels 14 million. I mean, is there a non tax team that goes, hey, this is actually a pretty decent acquisition.

[Bill Simmons]

If you look at these numbers where there's three teams that have cap space. Brooklyn is 58 million. Detroit's got 24 six. It might be able to get a little more. Memphis has 6.9, but could also potentially get a little more.

[Ryan Rosillo]

And the Detroit one I think is going to be different depending on the Cade stuff too. So I think that could be right.

[Bill Simmons]

If he gets all NBA, I think.

[Ryan Rosillo]

It goes to 19.

[Bill Simmons]

But full non taxpayer mid level is San Antonio, Sacramento, Charlotte, Washington, Utah and Atlanta. A couple of those teams feel a little Kaminga to me and then taxpayer mid level but not full that that list has like 10 teams on it.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, but that's only like five and a half million. The crazy thing is when you see the guy who's like seventh or eighth on a team and he immediately gets the two year, like two year tax mid level and he's just like, I don't, I'm like, I'm afraid, I'm afraid to wait this thing out. So I'll just take that right now.

[Bill Simmons]

You know what they call that? The Austin Reeves that.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But one day he's like, how much? Okay.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, but they weren't. Look the, their agents, I mean, look, I know those guys, so I'm a little biased. They knew what was going to be out there, wasn't going to be out there for Austin. So it's not like they jumped on something without all the information they needed.

[Bill Simmons]

Fair. I don't know what Golden State does and I don't Know what makes them think a year from now, a team that got slowly injured as the season went along and limped to the finish would somehow be super healthy next year? But more heels.

[Ryan Rosillo]

It was more fun, right? It was, hey, this could happen.

[Bill Simmons]

It was fun right until the fourth quarter at Game 3 against Minnesota. That was when the fun stopped, when it seemed like they were going to go up 2:1 against Minnesota and at least buy enough time for Curry to come back for Game 6. And then Minnesota finished him off. And Randall, the Randle Renaissance. Did you keep any Randall stock? Did you ever have Randall Stock?

[Ryan Rosillo]

No, I. I mean, I think I had it for the draft. I liked him better than Marcus Smart.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you really?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, I did.

[Bill Simmons]

Interesting.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I did. I liked his playmaking. I like the size. And there were times where I thought I was right. I mean, you want to talk about. This is like you and I revisiting the Pelicans, Lakers, Anthony Davis trade again, which you should probably do next week.

[Bill Simmons]

I have it scheduled.

[Ryan Rosillo]

The number of times that you could have argued Smart against Randall. And then it's like, it was this late to be able to argue. Like, yeah, actually, you're right.

[Bill Simmons]

That argument flipped again.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Like, that would be an incredible segment. Maybe not a great segment. Maybe a real slow.

[Bill Simmons]

No, you and I would enjoy it.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, we'd like it. But just trying to figure out, like, what are the longest possible argument, like.

[Bill Simmons]

Drafting one guy or the other guy, how many times it flies. Flip back and forth.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah. Can you get to year 14 where you're like, I'm still not sure.

[Bill Simmons]

Shot Marion versus Andre Miller.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Had a couple twists. Yeah, right. I mean, then once, you know, Dan, Tony got there with Marion, you're like.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, now he's.

[Ryan Rosillo]

He's hitting threes and everything else.

[Bill Simmons]

I have a couple of fake Celtics trades for you.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I want to stay on the warriors thing because I. I think there's a. A little bit of a lesson in this, in that the things you're battling and how tough the moment is versus all the decisions later on because I would have not wanted to get in the Jimmy Butler business. Okay. And then Dunleavy basically is like, what are we doing? We're not doing anything. We got off to this great start. We're terrible. And now it's everybody chasing Steph around, and he has to take all these other shots because we don't trust. Like, no one cares about any of the other four guys that are out there offensively, and everything's on staff. And so if we. We're not really moving out, anything of significance. What are we actually disrupting? And then they get attack on the extra massive year for Butler. Okay. Because like, that becomes part of it. But, you know, the beginning of the 25 calendar year, nobody cares about any of that stuff. And it looks like, how could you have questioned this? Butler has his joy back and all these different things. And, you know, the playoffs are disappointing. Whether it's.

[Bill Simmons]

Minnesota might be really good. Yeah, that's the other piece. And they lost their best guy one game in.

[Ryan Rosillo]

But there's, you know, I know Jimmy in the game where he took nine shots after the fact is like, hey, he was sick. I mean, this, by the way, this playoff season is unbelievable with the health and illness updates that we get from every team as soon as they're eliminated. We're like, our trainer had a cold.

[Bill Simmons]

Our.

[Ryan Rosillo]

The pilot. His has eczema. You know, it was tough. It was tough for us at the end. So you look at all of this Butler stuff and it's this huge celebration and then it's almost like, how could you have not wanted Jimmy Butler? And he's so smart and he's doing all these different things. Then you're watching him like, take the first quarter off of playoff games and then Steph is out and you're like, hey, dude, just shoot. Because, I mean, another Pajemski off the dribble stuff isn't working. Draymond, offensively, I mean, if, you know, I know he hit four threes in that game. Thanks. But then you're like, all right, now we're kind of stuck and we're paying those three guys 140 million and like, what's Jimmy going to be like with an expiring? We sure was healthy, Jimmy.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Cause I'm not. I'm not positive he was healthy in that Minnesota series.

[Ryan Rosillo]

He looked.

[Bill Simmons]

That injury he got fucked him up. And I think they could, you know, I. I think these guys get shot up with a whole bunch of stuff so they can play like God only knows what Aaron Gordon had put in his body today so he could limp around for two hours. But I don't know if that was like a five day injury Jimmy had. I'm not, by the way, I'm not making excuses for Jimmy.

[Ryan Rosillo]

He looked exhausted.

[Bill Simmons]

I. He just didn't look right to me in round two. I didn't. I did not feel like that was like a vintage Jimmy performance.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Well, because it wasn't. I. Well, is it. Is there anything for Draymond Green at 34 years old? At 26 and a player option for 27 and a half. Is there anywhere. Yeah, I mean, is there anything that works there where you go, hey, it's been a great run, but we need to figure out something else. We need more offense in today's game.

[Bill Simmons]

It's interesting because we, it feels like we've had this conversation now for three straight years. If it's a younger team on the rise that needs, like, their version of the veteran guy who's been in some wars, maybe, but I just don't know what you're getting back. It's not like you're saving money. You're going to have to take somebody else's contract back. Right?

[Ryan Rosillo]

I'm not talking about it as a salary dump. I'm just wondering if there's a specific value.

[Bill Simmons]

What are you getting from, though?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Well, you'd already have to have your offense pretty established because he can't go to another team, and you're like, hey, we want you to shoot more. Because the offensive stuff with him now is, like, a major problem for them in the playoffs.

[Bill Simmons]

Could it be the Lakers?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Are you doing a Reeves deal?

[Bill Simmons]

No, I, I, I was thinking like a Rui and something else, but I decided I don't think the warriors are trading Draymond unless it's like this unbelievable deal for them, which I don't think they're getting. Reeves is getting traded. That one I would bet on. I wouldn't bet my life on it, but I would bet on it. I think they're going to turn him into something I don't. It's just the logical thing, because he's, it's the same situation the Knicks were in with Hartenstein last year, where it's like he's just going to be able to get more money outside the team than he will with the team, and he's not going to stay for less money again. So they have to trade him this summer. And by the way, I think it makes sense to trade him. I don't think it makes sense to have, if you're keeping LeBron for this year, next year, and you have Luka and you have Reeves, we've already seen it. You're not going to be able to win four rounds with that as your top three. They need to turn him into a center.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, but can't he just turn down the extension now and then sign for more with him? If they wanted to keep him later on?

[Bill Simmons]

There's, I thought maybe I'm wrong, but I thought there was something with the. It was A little hard. Like, for what it was, the race that he got. I think he can only get a certain level of raise unless they're like, way under the cap. So I think that's the issue. But I think they're going to trade him this one.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, they can. I'm pretty sure they can wait. You're right, because it's like the max, like the percentage off of the last year of the previous contract because it was lower. I think the extension puts him way below market again. But I think if they were waiting, if. Which he was obviously going to do, I think there's. They could actually then sign it later on. So I don't. Look, let me throw two at you, though, because.

[Bill Simmons]

For Warriors.

[Ryan Rosillo]

No, just in general.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Would you do Tatum for Giannis?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think Tatum's on the. On the table.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Okay. Is there. Do you think if Nico hadn't traded Luca, he trades the number one pick for Giannis?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't. I think from all indications, they're like, holy shit, we got Cooper Flag. Like, if we're doing trade value list, it feels like he's already in the top, like seven because of his age and the rookie contract and how impactful he's going to be right away. Right.

[Ryan Rosillo]

He's 19 in December.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like, how can you possibly that the list is so short of people. I would even like, entertain a phone call with him. And he's going to be so good right away in all these different ways, the Giannis. I do have some fear with Giannis. If I'm trading for him. I'm not getting giannis in his mid-20s. I'm getting a guy who's 31, who has been in some long seasons, who's already had some wear and tear and who plays a really physical style of a game. You know, I just don't. I would just rather have the young guy in the rookie contract and take the ride with that. Do you disagree?

[Ryan Rosillo]

No, that's the right answer. But I, you know, there was all sorts of stuff where. I know Koc had mentioned that the Celtics talked with Cooper Flag and by the way.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, at the combine.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But they have five years from now when he turns down his rookie extension and just comes be the first. I'm counting on you, Kelly Flag. Kelly Flagg. She's got our backs. 2,030 Celtics. Come on.

[Ryan Rosillo]

It sounded like a newsworthy item, but. And. And Koc mentioned it, so it wasn't as if he was reporting it as this. Like, oh, my God, can You believe this? Like, once you understand how it works, like, they're like, yeah, we'll do the interview with him, we'll do the interview with the top guy. And by the way, front offices, there's nothing they love more than doing stuff where they think they're collecting information. Even if it's incredibly unlikely, all of these rookies they're going to interview, they're never even going to have on their team. But I thought some of the Cooper stuff of like the hypotheticals and then realizing like, even if Nico and ownership were like, this actually makes a ton of sense. It makes a ton of sense for our window. Why would we do this? Like, why would we try to have two timelines? Which seems like it never, ever works out, except for maybe the spurs, but they just obviously couldn't do something like that months after they did what they did with Luca. But the longer term part of it, which is a lot like the Lakers side of it, which again, you're not going to say no to getting Luca for anybody. But it's like, even if this screws up the 25 part of it, which again, I don't know what Anthony Davis, how different it would have been. I'm not going to guess that he's healthy with them, hurt with anybody else. But Cooper gives you the post ad like you know what you can be and build around. So it's extending. Like, it's not necessarily a championship window, but it's like, hey, if Kyrie's this or AD is this and all these things. Like, we now have a new thing though, that we already have in place, that if he's as good as everybody thinks he can be, the hardest thing to get in the league, which is again, why the Lakers? That's the discussion around the Lakers in 25. It's like, all right, whatever even happens here. But you know, for the next five years or longer with Luca, like, we have the first thing, which is the hardest thing to fine because without it there's no problem.

[Bill Simmons]

Isn't the bigger question, why wouldn't you trade Davis? As weird as that would be to. Considering he was the focal point of the Luca trade. But wouldn't it make more sense to trade Davis and try to build a team that has a different timeline?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Is there a Davis Lakers trade that makes sense?

[Bill Simmons]

Not that I. He. We'd have to be flipping it back.

[Ryan Rosillo]

But what if Reeves turned into Reeves? Like, if Reeves turned into like, I don't know. I'm trying to think, you know, it's not Paolo, but Like that level or Scotty Barnes two years ago when it seems like his. His value is taking a massive hit which I'm pushing against here. That's my position right now on this.

[Bill Simmons]

But what if San Antonio said second pick and I don't even think they would do this, by the way. I'm just. I'm just using his hypothetical, like range of what AD might be worth if San Antonio's like, you know what? We feel like Wemby's ready right now. We'll do the second pick in Vassell right now for AD No. I wonder if Dallas would even consider that.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I don't think they would. I think for everything, you know, Nico. So Pot committed to the AD thing where working out. I don't think they're going to do anything.

[Bill Simmons]

What if Booker was on the table?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Then you have to do it.

[Bill Simmons]

You have to if you're Dallas.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, but why would Phoenix do it?

[Bill Simmons]

Durant, Beal and AD and it's Matt Ishbia who's already done nine things we disagreed with. I don't know would. So you think Dallas would have to throw in more in that be AD plus for Booker?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah. Booker doesn't. Well, I shouldn't say Booker doesn't get hurt because he's had some time.

[Bill Simmons]

I would say Booker's value is not as high as it used to be.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I think that's a mistake.

[Bill Simmons]

He's born in 1996, so that makes him 28 years old, 29 in October. So he's I think three years younger than Davis. What if there was a wait, you.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Think Phoenix would have to. Who do you value more right now, AD or Booker?

[Bill Simmons]

I'm a bad.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Think about this.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm a bad person to ask because I don't. I'm not convinced AD can stay on a basketball court. I do have to. I was really unimpressed by Booker the last two years. I don't understand why it wasn't more of his fault that his team went to hell in a hand basket and couldn't even make the playoffs and he was somehow absolved from this when we both thought he was like a really special player who should be in the short list of franchise guys. I don't understand why they were so bad.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I can't believe you just said I'm not the person to ask. This is you. This is your entire life's work. I'm not the person to ask about.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm talking about. I'm not the person to ask with AD Because I default toward not Thinking he's going to be on a basketball court. But I don't know if I'm in the minority or not on that. No, that was one of the things I thought was so crazy with Dallas. Like, I just don't trust that he's going to play nine months of basketball in a season, you know, especially they trade for him and he got hurt again. What if it was? What if it was? Where's the other one? What if there was something with Brooklyn, where Brooklyn traded for Davis and your Cam Johnson, the eighth pick in the draft and more first.

[Ryan Rosillo]

And it was like a real Claxton.

[Bill Simmons]

Action, maybe Nick Claxton, like I don't know it. My point is I couldn't figure out the AD trade, even though I think it probably makes sense for them to trade ad but maybe they can decide to do that in February. I don't understand the team they have now. I guess they'd have to play Flag at small forward. But if I'm Dallas, all I care about is Flag. That's my number one. Number two and number three priorities is how can I put this guy in his position to succeed for the next five years? And I'm not positive him playing small forward is how. How he's succeeding. But they have these two centers and. And they have Davis. So then plan B, I guess, would be to trade at least one of the centers and maybe you could just have Lively, Davis and Flag, and Those are your three guys and you split up the 96 minutes with those three guys and you feel like Davis is going to get hurt sometimes anyway. But they probably have to trade Gafford. That might be the move.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Move.

[Bill Simmons]

That's probably the easiest solve.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I'm sure they're going to have to trade one of the centers, right?

[Bill Simmons]

If I'm them, I want to keep flagging Lively because now short term and long term, that's where in business with those guys.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, but Lively's a little different player when it's not Luca.

[Bill Simmons]

True, true. But maybe he'd have value for the right thing. Anyway, I think it'd be hard to trade ad. I have another draft trade for you. What if Philly didn't want to stay at 3 and what if they wanted to move back a couple spots and what if they called New Orleans and said, we'll give you three and Ubre's expiring for seven and Herb Jones called him right now Philly moves back four spots to get Herb Jones, New Orleans moves into that top four that I think all of us really like, and I would include Ace Bailey in the top four. Personally.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Man, I love myself some Herb Jones.

[Bill Simmons]

I figured you would. Feels like a Darrelly trade, right? Still loves. He ends up with, like, Knipple at 7 and Herb Jones, and that's what they turned the third pick into. It's pretty interesting.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah. Cause Bassini was really good on this, as he always is from the athletic on the draft stuff. And he was talking about how, you know, Philly because of Darrell, you would expect, you know, big into the models, but not. I don't know that any team would go, hey, this is what our model says. And now this is all we're doing. But that Bailey on some of the analytics stuff is just not a.

[Bill Simmons]

Not a Darrell guy. I've been trying to tell people that he's Edgecomb, I think is more in the Darrell vicinity.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah. But then you think, okay, they have Maxi McCain. I. I feel like Edgecomb with his. His just motor and the way he attacks the rim. Like, there's just another level of like, hey, some guys get to the rim. Like, I look at the NBA and go, okay, whenever we say it's really hard to stay in front of this guy. Well, the way defenses are so sophisticated now and everybody kind of understands, like, game in and game out. Like, this is the plan against somebody who's really aggressive and dynamic off the ball. You can clog them up. I mean, look what Denver did with the zone against sga. Who's one of the best drivers. Drivers in the entire league. All right, so having said all of that. And then there's ant. Okay, and then there's Ant. And in college, somebody can be really good in special, athletic. You're like, all right, but can this guy consistently just get to the rim? You know, that's really hard to do when a team is ready for it. And Edgecomb felt like he consistently was just in this other gear in comparison to other guys that are, you know, playing college basketball. So does that translate over to the NBA and everything? So, you know, it'd be interesting if there's no deal there for Philly if they go. It doesn't make a lot of sense because of who we've invested in and nailing the McCain pick last year to throw another small player in like this. But.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but I'm not. I'm not letting McCain change who the right player is for my third pick. I like McCain. I don't. He was so good to see. I know. I really like him. But, like, okay, so we like. Indiana has multiple really Good guards. Like, it's not like, oh, we have too many good guards. Like, that feels like a good problem to have for me. I feel like two and three, and I know you talked to way more people than I did this week. Cause that's the combine is. It's the super bowl for that. I feel like 2, 3, and 4 are wide open. I don't. I'm not convinced San Antonio's taking Harper second. I'm not. And I think they think out. They think outside the box more than anybody, though.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Where they just like, hey, we like this guy. We don't care what the mock drafts say. We like this guy the most. We're taking him second. I will. Is Harper the most likely guy to go there? Probably. But I just think, like, if anyone's just. They're like, Danny. Like, I don't. I would never trust Danny with a mock draft versus if he just likes somebody, he's just going to take the guy. You know, they might. They might say, whoa, Trey Johnson, this guy. We love this guy. We're just taking him here, too. I have no idea.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, I think it's a good reminder with San Antonio and the Danny thing's right. Because of the Tatum year, where it just was like, how could you not take faults? And I just love that Danny was like, I don't. I don't see it. You know, and you've got to have some stones. You have to have, like, years of. Of everybody just accepting you to go ahead and do some of that stuff. Because I think the mocks screwed up Durant.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, Durant was even bigger because he didn't even have the resume at that point to fall back on. And they would have taken Durant first.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, right. He had. That would have been the year. Well, again, that was the year they ended up winning the title. But, um, the reason they were able to do everything they did is because they didn't win the lottery or didn't get one of the two first two picks. So the funny thing is, is that all of that probably would have been delayed. And maybe they don't do the Ray Allen. Well, they wouldn't have done the Ray Allen deal because that was a Jeff Green pick. And then maybe that, you know, likely means they're not giving.

[Bill Simmons]

No, them falling to five led to the title.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, you're right. You're right. So I would say other teams, though, certainly think it's Harper, too. So maybe you're right about San Antonio thinking outside of the box. I'd say consensus Is Harper's too in this draft. But I like the Herb Jones thing. I know when you put these trades together and we sit here and we were like, all right. And then we just end up talking about it for five minutes. We're like, yeah, that's not going to happen. Or that doesn't make any sense. Philly probably doesn't want to wait on another guy. I mean, if somebody's special and they do all the evaluation, it's like, hey, this is still the best value. We'll sit there at three. But Herb Jones, healthy again, gives you stuff that very few wing defenders gives you.

[Bill Simmons]

There's one more trade back for them. Brooklyn is at third. Eight with the Cam Johnson pick, with Cam Johnson and eight. And that might be too much to flip with Philly, but if I'm Brooklyn and I can get in the top three, I'm trying to do it, you know, and that's the other one. I just feel like Philly with the talk about windows, I don't know what their. Their window with Embiid might already be shattered and there might be wooden glass everywhere, but they don't have time to wait on some 19 year old kid with Embiid. I don't think so. They're. They're basically. And George, who's going to be 35 years old, but thank God he's podcasting again. They need to move fast on turning this pick into people who can help them next year if they're actually trying to contend. Plus the east like we talked about earlier, with Giannis leaving the east potentially and Tatum being out like the windows now. So, you know, if they get Cam Johnson in the eight for the three, I would do it unless I felt like one of those guys like I'm kind of with and I haven't done all my work yet. You're way ahead of me in the draft stuff, but I'm with you on Edgecomb like that. His. The clips of him are unbelievable. It's like everything you want in the NBA now is a guy who can. Is that athletic and can go to the basket like that. So I would have a hard time not taking him.

[Ryan Rosillo]

And that may be what they're stuck with. But I think your approach and your strategy, if you're going back into it and be like, all right, the whole thing this off season is health. Be ready to go. Limit the minutes for these guys. See what you have. In what feels like a more open east with the Tatum injury, with Milwaukee likely kind of stuck a little bit. Maybe the Knicks and the Pacers are the favorites to win the east going into next year because everybody's going to be so pissed off about Cleveland. Although the odds are they're going to be the odds on favor at least to be the one seat in the east if everything stays status quo. But we know that's not going to happen. But even if they want to do all those things, I mean, if you start looking at going, okay, is this a veteran that actually helps us or is it just a veteran?

[Bill Simmons]

Right?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Those are like, you know, I don't know if John Collins like, yeah, this makes sense.

[Bill Simmons]

Same timeline, same Speaking of John Collins, we got to take one more break for the podcast. We'll keep going on YouTube. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. What do I look forward to every NBA playoff season? Well, I'm always hoping the Celtics do well. I'm always hoping we have great storylines, great games, great matchups, great games, Sevens. I just hope for good basketball. But the NBA playoffs are even better with Michelob Ultra, the official beer partner of the NBA. Plus, they're getting fans closer to the game with a chance to win courtside tickets and more. Enter now at michelobulture.com courtside Michelob Ultra Superior Access Courtside 2024-25 Sweepstakes no purchase necessary. Open to US residents 21 or older. Ends on July 1, 2025. Multiple entry periods. Visit michelobulture.com SuperiorAccess Courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and official rules. Message and data rates may apply. Void where prohibited. This episode is brought to you by Cars.com, whether you're buying your first set of wheels, upgrading to fit your growing family, or looking for something to have a little fun with on the weekends, visit cars.com and explore the possibilities. Up to 50,000 cars are added daily, so wherever life takes you, there's a car for it on cars.com find your next possibility on cars.com where to next? John Collins was in one of my get the Celtics under the second apron trades. Yeah, weren't expecting that that, were you. Porzingis for John Collins just saves the Celtics 4.1 million in Utah. Thought they were getting Porzingis a couple years ago and then he had a chance to go to Boston. He did that instead, so they've always liked him. It's interesting there's 4 million hower to Detroit. Just trading them there. That would save another 10 holiday to Memphis for Conchar and Pippen.

[Ryan Rosillo]

They're not going to give you Pippen I think Pippen's good. All right.

[Bill Simmons]

I was trying to steal him. Holiday to Memphis for Conchar. Maybe in that. Maybe it's just. Maybe that's the trade.

[Ryan Rosillo]

How long would you wait after they said no to Conchar Pippin before you called back and asked for just Concha? You'd have to give it a few days.

[Bill Simmons]

I call a second time for Pippin. No, I'd keep. I'd keep trying for Pippen first. I love Pippen. Holiday to Detroit for Fontechio I thought was the most interesting because that actually makes sense to me for Detroit. That's the exact type of guy they need for the team they have. With Ivy coming back in that shrewder spot with all the other stuff they're probably going to want to do in the east and the fact that they're not going to be able to sign a free agent and I don't know, maybe that's one too, that would save the Celtics 24 million. I feel bad trying to trade Drew Holiday because I love Drew Holiday. But if the assignment is you have to shave 20 million, he's the most logical candidate, unfortunately.

[Ryan Rosillo]

But if you're Detroit, I mean, they're going to see the same thing that we've been talking about here being like, how much does he cost in the.

[Bill Simmons]

Last year, three years from now?

[Ryan Rosillo]

37 million. At that point, Cade's making his massive contract, which is the highest version of it because of the escalator. You've got to at that point figure out what you're paying iv, Duran and Sar. So that's. That feels like one of those deals. And now maybe they go, hey, by that point, Tobias is expiring, which I would imagine.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, Holland. I assume that they think Holland's going to grab some of those minutes. The thing with Memphis is just, I think some of these smaller market teams do not lure free agents as we've seen for the last four decades. And the best way for them to. To add an impact veteran is to trade for one that's under contract and that's a possibility for them. But anyway, it's a tall task. Can I give you my list of we should have won the title Celtic seasons? My top four. Do you think 25 is on the list? I'm just giving you a top four. You think 25 made the list?

[Ryan Rosillo]

No, because you're going to put nine and 10 in there. So I don't think 25 is on the list.

[Bill Simmons]

It's not on the list. And I'll tell you this Game four was they lost before Tatum went down. They were down 9. Or I guess Tatum went down as the steel layup. They were down 3:1 in the series. And let's say Tatum never gets hurt. I still don't know if they. I don't think they win three in a row without poor Porzingis. Do you think they could have won three in a row without Porzingis or. Or the ghost of Porzingis or zombie Porzingis, whatever version of Porzingis that was.

[Ryan Rosillo]

He was terrible. I mean, I know he was terrible.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think they could have done it. They blew the series in those first two games is where I've kind of landed on a Sunday after the series.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Game one, fine. I can't believe they did it again in Game 2. And Tatum going down to say, well, that that game was. We had already seen it two other times, so sure they're like there's randomness of the OKC Denver stuff or OKC looked like a terrible team in the fourth quarter a couple times. Yes, Denver looked like a terrible team there in the fourth quarter when Tatum went down. If you're a Celtics fan, you cannot use that injury as an excuse for the outcome of that game. I mean, sure, you can hit me with. You don't know what's going to happen with three minutes left. And this team. Okay, fine. It didn't feel that way, man. It like that felt like in that span when they got down to them, it's like, oh my God, they're actually going to lose this series. And then the Tatum part is just the bad news on top everything else. So I think we're on the same page with that one.

[Bill Simmons]

The second half of game four for the Knicks and game six for the Knicks is the best I've felt about them as a team all year. I was really impressed. And.

[Ryan Rosillo]

The Mitchell Robinson stuff, man.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, just the 15 minutes him and McBride. Can I.

[Ryan Rosillo]

That possession on Jalen in the corner when he defended everybody.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, God, yeah, that was great. I got to defend the Knicks fans for a second because they took some shit for the over celebrating getting at around 2. I was fine with it. I mean that team hasn't had anything good happen to them in 25 years other than Linsanity and beating like the ghost of the Celtics in 2013. Like they should have celebrated like that. It's a Friday night. It reminded me a little that the when the Celtics had that comeback Nets win and then nothing good had happened with the Celtics for nine years and everybody Just went out in the streets and got drunk in Boston. Same thing. It's like they deserved it. That that team, all those fans have been through so much shit and so many bad, stupid management things and owner things and so much bad luck and bad lottery luck. Like, I, I, I would have expected them to celebrate that way. And if they make it two more rounds, I don't even, I can't even imagine what that's going to be like. But I, both of us know a ton of Knicks fans. I was happy for a lot of people. Even though it was at the expense of my team. I thought, I thought it was a pretty cool story.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Is any of this true or is this just like.

[Bill Simmons]

No, it is. I feel the Knicks, you know, there's some Red Sox parallels. I see it, I feel it like with the, you know, they haven't won in 52 years. It's like you're talking entire generations of people talking. People like Koppelman's son, who's like, in his late, mid, late 20s now. He's never even seen them win a game like that. So I don't know, I was feeling for them positively.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I loved watching him play last year. I know I've mentioned that Philly Nick series for an early, early round series. Last year is like, one of my favorite series of the last few years. And the intensity of it all. And clearly, like, Brunson's more comfortable, which doesn't make any sense considering the Celtics team and everything they've gone through, but he's more comfortable in those moments than anybody on the Celtics, and that was going to keep happening.

[Bill Simmons]

Great point.

[Ryan Rosillo]

And I know how I felt like I could do a much bigger. You know, one of my favorite things about the combine is just like, what the dudes who do this every single day, they think about this sport, where it's going.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

And, you know, are we now away from, like, we just accepted small balls? Like, well, it makes a lot of sense. Like, why would you want some big plotting guy out there who's not as skilled. Put your five best skilled players. Like, what took us so long to get to this point? And now we're seeing in a real way pretty quickly the teams are going. You know, what I really like is controlling the glass and having rebounds. It also helps that some of these big guys can both stretch the floor offensively, which, you know, maybe a shot.

[Bill Simmons]

And then get it back and then take another shot and then that one goes in.

[Ryan Rosillo]

No, but I started thinking about, and, you know, look, I don't Love doing this. The week Tatum blows out his Achilles. But it was another thought that I had where, you know, I remember I've talked about the usage rate stuff of like, if you look at the history of like the highest usage rate seasons and how many. I haven't updated the number numbers recently, but more often than not, those teams didn't do very well in the playoffs. Now the counter to that can immediately be the reason the guy's high usage is that high is because the rest of the team isn't that good. And that means that's why those, those teams didn't do anything. I think both things can actually be true. I think if you do something in the regular season where it's always in one guy's hands over and over and over again, like, I think there's probably a Donovan Mitchell conversation about that that he defaults back to the Utah Jazz versus where it's so dynamic and when he's rolling, he looks like one of the five best options of the ball in his hands.

[Bill Simmons]

Nobody else is doing anything.

[Ryan Rosillo]

But then, no, right then nobody else is doing anything. Guys aren't boxing out as hard because they're sitting there watching. They're not playing defense as hard because they're like, this guy's going to take 30 something shots again. And you know, for the most part, I really like Donovan Mitchell because when it's right, it's probably one of the most fun things to watch in the NBA. So if you allow me to take my time here and making the point, you know, I was talking with just different people just bullshitting about the game and I was like, this is even about Tatum. So much is like when you see it going bad for the Celtics and everybody knows it, I mean, it's unbelievable. It's like there's a warning sign or a reader.

[Bill Simmons]

Eight years of watching it. Like you kind of know the signs. It's like, you know being in a marriage or something where you're like, oh, my wife seems pissed right now. Yeah, it's like a material like this.

[Ryan Rosillo]

With like four minutes to go, interrupts the broadcast and goes. And here's the point where they're going to hunt for switches and then settle for bad threes. And it's going to be a lot of isolation.

[Bill Simmons]

So they're going to walk the ball up and start the offense. Eight seconds left in the shot clock.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Are we in a parallel of this small ball to now the too big. And I, I'm going to say it one more time. Also known as center and power Forward, which was pretty exciting for a long time.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it was working.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Have we gone so far away from the traditional point guard who may not even. He may just be extinct now? I don't even know if there, there may be a couple of zoo and shit.

[Bill Simmons]

That's why Mike Conley is still working. That's why Chris Paul can still get 30 minutes a game.

[Ryan Rosillo]

There's no. I kept thinking about like Gary Payton in some of these games where you can see the best player, you know, whether it's a Mitchell or whether it's a Tatum or some of these other dudes that are like MVP caliber players that are just like, hey, this is kind of what we do. Like I'm the best player. The math says that I have to have the ball, the math says I have to take the shot. But that means that it's kind of pretty predictable like what I'm going to do. So the defense is more prep for it. They can help off a little bit more because it's just not likely that we want like any of these other three guys even shooting. I wonder if Gary Payton watches some of this stuff and goes, hey, after three of these in a row, let's do something different. I'm going to take the ball, I'm going to tell everybody what to do and I'm going to get us a good look. Because the way I'm programmed to play this game is to figure out the best possession for us and not necessarily saying, hey, an open three in this spot gives us this many points per shot, points per possession. So it's not even like an anti.

[Bill Simmons]

So you're saying like Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, any of those old school point guards that we grew up with.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I don't think a Chris Paul or any of the guys you just named would let that many possessions go as bad as we've seen with the high usage. And we're talking about some of the best players in the sport, players that have had huge accomplishments, a few of these guys that have won rings.

[Bill Simmons]

But wouldn't you put Halliburton in this though? Because I think I really like some of the decisions he made in those first two rounds. And he's a real point guard.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I think it's a great the way he collapses a defense because of his handle and because of his size and you can see. And then he's keeping like almost jokic ish. He keeps all of these passing lane options open. Like he's not just throwing to a corner, he's not just hitting the roll, man. He's thinking like, okay, I have a few different things. As soon as I can get into the defense and get them to collapse, I'm gonna find a couple.

[Bill Simmons]

But you're just talking half court. The other thing is he's getting fast break transition stuff, too.

[Ryan Rosillo]

You're right.

[Bill Simmons]

But. But that's the bonus of. That's the stuff you don't get with Tatum and the Celtics because he's not wired to be like, rebound. I'm going to try to create a. You know, even, like, Jokic is wired that way. But I see what you're saying, though, with this stuff.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, we are like combo guard. The tweener thing, like, it used to be bad. Well, he's kind of a combo. He's not really a one or he's not really a two. Now it's mandatory that you're the one, but you're really. All of these ones play as twos.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

And have. Has the game in those huge playoff moments. Have we lost that part of the game? Those guys that had that talent to go. It doesn't guarantee you anything. But, hey, we just did this three times. Let's do something different. It sounds simple, but I think the game is missing that a little bit because.

[Bill Simmons]

Would you look at that, too?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, but.

[Bill Simmons]

Cause that. That got really stale in the day. Dallas, Boston series, specifically, you're talking about.

[Ryan Rosillo]

The bad part of it where it's predictably the same thing over and over again.

[Bill Simmons]

Just over and over again, same. I see what you're saying.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Maybe we appreciate LeBron more.

[Bill Simmons]

No, I think there's one other piece that you're. You're. You're not factoring in. That, I think is important because you're talking about how more bigs. We also have more bigs now that can play this style. And I think that took, like 12 years to shift.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Totally.

[Bill Simmons]

Because remember, like, those 201213 bigs. I always think we talked about Brandon bass and the 2012 Eastern Conference finals, like, this type of forward that just no longer exists, or Big Baby Davis or like the PJ Brown. Those guys are all gone. And now it's turned into this new version of those guys where it's like, Mitchell Robinson is almost a throwback center.

[Ryan Rosillo]

He totally not almost.

[Bill Simmons]

He is. But you can. You can.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Well, you know what? Well, I would give you this, though, because what this game asks Biggs to do now defensively is insane. Is insane. And so maybe those guarding.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he's guarding Derek White 25ft from the basket. That wasn't happening in 2012. So it's like you, even if you're big, you're accumulating these new skills that I don't think the guys from the previous generation had combined with. You have these Chet Holmgren types that are this new version of a center where it's like they're 25ft from the basket, they're spacing. So I just think we have better talent to play these ways to play the double big than maybe we did when it was. What was his name? Pirantic, Macedonia.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I just had a guy, he was driving me in Chicago. He's from Macedonia. He told me the NBA was fixed. It was a long hour.

[Bill Simmons]

Wow. I know. They could fix the ping pong balls. I think the whole discussion is Al Horford. If you just look at his basketball reference, that is the roadmap. That is the IMDb of how basketball changed, where he's 0 free throw 0 threes a game to like 1 to. All of a sudden he's at like 5, 5. And now when you look, he's like, no free throws and threes. And this was a guy who used to, you know, post up and play near the basket.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Now he doesn't, but he always should have been because he was pretty good with the ball in his hands. I always felt. And I know, I interviewed him and I asked about this. I go, you're going to spend your entire career out of position because you end up having to play center. And you should have been a power forward who had the ball a little bit more. And of course, it's Al Horford. So he's like, yeah, you know, whatever.

[Bill Simmons]

Griffin's another one, near the end of his career was. Became more of a three point shooter. But if he came into the league being a three point shooter combined with all the other stuff he had, it's pretty interesting. So that was what you guys were. That was one of the combine discussions of. Is the. The way people are playing basketball. Is something broken? Is it fixable? Like, because that's just a lot of.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Philosophical stuff that I think is really great, especially when you're talking to the guys that think about the game right every single day of their lives. All they are like, they're think. And it doesn't mean everybody agrees. It's not like, I came back from the combine. Like 10 teams said the exact same thing about the way they see the game. But there is. I. I'd say there is a. A sentiment from a few of the guys that I talked to that were like, there's just A lot of this stuff that gets really repetitive and really predictable at the ends of these games. And it feels like almost the default setting for all those teams. And like, look at okc. To bring it full circle, they had to figure out the second thing because the SGA take you from the top high ball screen. And then now you're chasing him and he's pulling up from every single angle, full speed to straight up in the air, or he's working you for three free throws. Like OKC could not go to that as consistent as they wanted to or as they had throughout the regular season because Denver was prioritizing. Just clog all this stuff up at the top. And you know, it almost makes me think the Celtics would have just kept running that right.

[Bill Simmons]

Well. Cause it was. The math was on their side. And then they won the title last year, which makes you think you're invincible. But they sure. I mean, the. The. I mean, the last minute of game one was an atrocity. The shots they got and then the fact that they repeated it in game two, you know, it's even worse. It's interesting with Minnesota because Minnesota is a hybrid of both of these worlds. Right. Where you're. What you're talking about is basically the ant issue, where it's when they're at their worst, it's him trying to do the same thing over and over again. And teams like threatening to send a second guy and not him getting frustrated. That's usually when they unravel. But then they added this Randall piece, and now they have these two different versions on offense that they can kind of attack you with. It was notable in those Laker games. Like, at some point you're realizing Randall's just not having a good game. Like he's attacking them and they can't match up with it. And I felt the same way in Golden State. We'll see with okc. So you. You think you have OKC in this next series?

[Ryan Rosillo]

I picked him this summer. I'm picking him again. I'm again surprised the odds are that in their favor. But maybe it's because I thought the Thunder were going to dispose of Denver a little bit earlier. Well, I did.

[Bill Simmons]

There was a lot of. A lot of pride, championship DNA. And that one game where Gordon hit the game. Winning three was a pretty lucky win. Right. Even though it was a great win for Denver, it was still pretty fluky. I guess them winning three was an achievement.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I think Clippers are probably saying the same thing.

[Bill Simmons]

Definitely. Yeah. If I was gonna bet, if I was gonna Bet the Finals. I, I, I still think OKC is gonna win the title, but I would probably do the, I'd probably do the SGA to win the finals. MVP, I think is the best value, although it's basically the same as OKC. OKC is minus 185. The Knicks are plus 490, Minnesota 6 to 1 and Indiana is 8 to 1. And this is the, I guess we can hit the finish line with this. I picked the Knicks to kill that Detroit. I thought they were going to win in less than six. It took a little longer. I thought the Celtics were going to kill the Knicks in round two. They didn't. I like Indiana and against the Knicks in the series, I think Indiana is going to win the series as a bet. Like The Pacers are plus one 26 and the Knicks are minus 148. I think that should be a 50 50. So I think you're getting more value with the Pacers at +126. Cause I honestly, I think the Pacers have a slightly better team. They're deeper. I think this is a good matchup for them and I continue to really believe in them. I think they're really good. So for me, I would take the plus 126 if I was betting on this. That line's moved a little. It was plus 140. It's dropped. What do you have, you think the Knicks or the Pacers?

[Ryan Rosillo]

This is a coin toss. I'm taking the Pacers. You know, there's not really much. I mean, their first three games were October, November and February.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Ryan Rosillo]

And the Pacers are better defensive team than they were. And you know, here were two teams I thought had a lot of similarities in that. Man, I like them and I like their top level scoring. But are they, you know, are you really weak at point guard defensively? And then you're really weak at the rim defensively. So I felt like they kind of emulated each other. Even though the Pacers we've mentioned numerous times, big reason why this has happened in this turnaround is that they're able to get stops now in ways that you just didn't expect.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Ryan Rosillo]

You, we always knew they were going to score. It was like that team is not going to get a high. They're not going to get multiple high level stops when they need to get them. So now when I look at these two things, I mean, I can understand the Knicks side of this in the argument and I would throw in a little thing about the Knicks fans though. Everything you Said, totally fine. And look, this is kind of what this is now. Get a bunch of dudes together, do crazy shit, film it. I mean, we got this generation throwing stuff at strangers in Target and posting it. So, like, this is not new. And it isn't any different than anybody who's young. At some point when it's like, would I do this by myself? Nope. Would I do it with. There were 50 of us. Yep. Probably would. But leave Brian Windhorst the fuck alone. Okay? Yeah, just leave Windhorst alone. And Chuck D, again, a legend. We don't need him tweeting Windworth, which may be his worst bar of all time. I mean, Chuck D is like, unimpeachable for just a million reasons and how awesome he was. But maybe he was, you know, look, he's a Knicks fan. The Knicks fans get so upset at Windhorse and it's like, dude, I don't understand that.

[Bill Simmons]

People are just here to get. We're here to give our opinions on what we're watching, right?

[Ryan Rosillo]

And here's the thing. Windhorse is like, of all the good guys out there, leave Windhorse alone.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, I vote for leaving a lot of people alone. But yeah, that was unfortunate. I agree with you. I'm glad you said that. I have one thing to say, because I was too positive about the Knicks. So I'm just going to put sports hate. My sports hate. This isn't actual hate. I really grew to hate Karl Anthony Towns by the end of that series. I wasn't a huge fan to begin with. I'm just talking.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Oh, my God.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm not. I'm. I'm just talking sports hate. Irrational. I'm a Celtics fan. Just, you end up not liking certain people on the other team. By the end of game six, I was, I was just like, oh, my God, I can't wait for some team to expose him. He just drove me fucking crazy. Especially when they go up 15, 20 and then he starts like, you know, punishing Al Horford. I was like, ah, he drives me crazy. I hated rooting against him.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Well, you get to do it again.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I haven't decided what I'm betting, but I'm leaning toward Pacers. But to me, this is a no lose series because it's going to be super fun either way. I really like watching Indiana. I think they've been a revelation. And teams, people just continue to underrate them for some reason, which I don't really understand now. The Cleveland thing, it's like, oh, they have Mobile and Garland and they They. I thought they broke Cleveland by the. By game five. I really did. I thought. Thought Cleveland, like, melted the fact that.

[Ryan Rosillo]

They got down that big on the road. And you're thinking, most teams go, whatever. Like, all right, they're all hyped. They go to the three, we're going home. We still have two more chances. And then they come back and then they just close it the way. The way they close that game. That is one of the most impressive things any team has done in any game during this postseason.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And it was the whole Cavs team, too. I also think they have the right level of feistiness that you actually need in msg, which I'm not positive the Celtics had at certain points in that Knicks series. There's a couple points where Jaylen Brown stood up to Josh Hartz, but I think the Knicks.

[Ryan Rosillo]

You got Matherin.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Turner mixes it up with you.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Halbert knock shit. Like, though Nemhard.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I'm just telling Knicks fans right now, be prepared for Nemhardt to drive into OG. Maybe it'll be Josh Hart, it'll be one of the perimeter guys. It'll be Mikhail, OG or Hart, where you're going to think that Knicks player after that collision who will get called for the foul and Nemhar will get the end one. But Nemhar, it is like a crash test dummy. Level of impact could be organ damage. So if a guy is out, just internal organ damage. Game four questionable or whatever, there's going to be a NEM heart collision where he gets going where you're, you know. Again, I just think most people just kind of watch their team. The number of games where I've watched him hard do that, where I've watched like. And then he gets the call and, you know, look, there's going to be. There's going to be a really rough Brunson night in there for Pacers fans, where you're going to go, this is happening all the time. Like, yeah, yeah, it is. It is.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the other thing they do is the 94ft of just putting wear and tear in him, just bringing the ball up, which I continue to think is underrated. And the Pacers love doing that.

[Ryan Rosillo]

They did it to McConnell.

[Bill Simmons]

They love it. They want to just wear you down. They want to put miles on you during the game. Dumb miles. They. That don't matter in the big scheme of things. But that's. That's how they're wired. They come, come, come, come. I think they're really good and that there's a Moment here for either Brunson or Halliburton. Right? Brunson. If they make the finals, you're moving into this completely different territory in the city. And he, he might already be there. But you, you bring that team to the finals with some of the late game stuff that he's did and just how like likable and awesome of a guy that he is just making the finals, you could dine off that for the next 50 years, much less winning. I mean, now they have a real chance to win. But Halberton, who I didn't even vote for, for all NBA who was in that overrated poll, I think that's a.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Guy that want to stand him though.

[Bill Simmons]

He's been a pretty polarizing guy. Didn't play in the Dream Team, all that stuff. And I think he's been awesome in these playoffs. I've been really impressed. And he has a chance, you know, to really put himself on the map here because he's the best guy on that team. So there's big stakes there. The stakes on the other, the other battle is easier because if Minnesota beats OKC now, we're moving toward this. Edwards might be actually ready like that. That's like, I'm not ready to. We'll talk about that in a week. But like Edwards going through this gauntlet and all the fucking dudes OKC has that they'll be able to throw at him for seven games if he gets through that, this is like, we might be ready to have the combo. Like, is it time?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Because the other side of the Knicks thing first. And you're right about everything you said is I just keep thinking of Miles Turner and then the Thomas Bryant minutes where Carlisle must just be like, I can't believe it. Can't believe this is. This is what I've got to do. And it's like, okay, if the Knicks frontline beat up on the Celtics front line, you know, because Porzingis at whatever point. And I knew what Missoula. It seemed like Missoula was hoping, like, can this just wake up, right? Can it wake up at some point? It never happened. They bench him in that second half of that game because they said he couldn't breathe. But I mean, he just, he was that bad. But you still had Cornet. You still had Horford out there battling maybe the Knicks. Maybe this becomes more of a cat thing. But see, cat was actually like, look, he didn't hit any threes.

[Bill Simmons]

He was really good in game six.

[Ryan Rosillo]

The on the glass stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

And the putbacks and Just being big and being physical and being quicker to the ball and all that kind of stuff. Like, I don't know why that would get worse against the Pacers. If anything, it should get better. I mean, Mitchell's just going to be a cleanup guy. It's not like they're going to give him touches and actually, like, run something with him there. But, I mean, everybody's going to be.

[Bill Simmons]

A real problem for them, too, because I. He's turned into one of the best defensive guys in the league. And I think one of the problems with the Celtics in that last series is Holiday didn't do a good enough job on Brunson. Brunson didn't.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Derek White was bad, too, against him, and then that's why Jalen ended up having to play him.

[Bill Simmons]

And then Tatum was covering him, too, before he got hurt. Like, they were using their forwards to guard Brunson. Indiana has way more options.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Brunson was looking for Horford. I thought Horford held up really well, but then when it was the Przinga stuff, it was just a disaster. But look, N. Smith, we'll see what happens here. Because there's part of the Jokic conversation where it does get really annoying with Jokic, too. As much as we all love him, like when he pins the defender's arms into his arms and then screams with his palms up, and you're like, dude, you're doing all of this right now. But then there's other plays too, because he's so big where he's just getting swiped at the entire time. It's like, okay, but they're not going to call all these fouls. So if you have correct Russo, if you have Jalen Williams, if you have the two bigs, if you have the other Jalen Williams, you're Talking about like 30 fouls you can throw at this guy. And if they get to the bonus quicker, no problem. Like, we'd still rather them get to the bonus and try to just physically attack this guy the entire time. It'll be very interesting to see what the fouls are like on Nismith in the first quarter against Brunson, because niece Smith should foul out of every game he's in. He's just.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but you could have said that about Caruso and Dort. And that's the thing. It feels like if you can establish it in the first quarter, then you can get away with it.

[Ryan Rosillo]

But the smaller guy gets the calls more. I mean, Brunson is drawing free throws. Brunson is drawing the second most free throws of any player. The last time I looked at it. And then I think during the regular season, Giannis was the only player that drew more free throws. Excuse me, drew more personal fouls. Cause that's another thing that happens with this Brunson debate. It's like, oh, well, look at his free throw. We know all these different things, like, dude, he's number two in the NBA. I'll look it up right now just to make sure I don't get this wrong, because obviously it's going to.

[Bill Simmons]

He's. I thought he was top three, isn't he?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Per game. I think he was second to only Giannis right now. Look, somebody has to be number one, number two, number three. But I'm going to, I'm going to look it up just because I don't, I don't want to get this wrong. And I, I'm almost positive I had it right. All right, so he's drawing seven and a half fouls per game during the playoffs. In the regular season, even higher. Some of them are overturned. Yeah. So like, you know, Giannis was number one at seven and a half during the regular season. Brunson was number two.

[Bill Simmons]

That's crazy. Well, if you're the Knicks, this couldn't have broke better. You get rid of Boston, you have Mitchell Robinson healthy, which I would have, I would have put the odds at like 5 to 1 in and OG, sort of OG's at least out there. And you look the best you've ever looked all season in game six.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Bridges. Those bridges makes in the start of the fourth quarter in game two. The other like those non Brunson minutes to start the fourth quarter. Letting Bridges cook. Man, it's one of my favorite things about this because he has that in his game.

[Bill Simmons]

We were calm for half the season. Well, the other thing is everyone on the team is the hungriest you can possibly be. Which was reminiscent of the Celtics last year, right there. There's a hunger level with them. Not that everybody else doesn't have it, but it's. These are all of these guys that are really interesting points of their career that have this whole city behind them in this crazy way. It's going to be a tall task for Indiana. I think Indiana is slightly better than them. I don't think that's going to mean it's going to win. They're going to win the series, but I think Indiana is really good. We'll see those threes when you're down three, two in a series and you, you know, they're Home in Indiana in game six, and they need. They need to hit some shots, and you miss a couple, and it ends up being like that Denver game where you're down 15 and you start doing the math, like, oh, God, we got to get going. And the sphincter start tightening. Flip side will be the Knicks. But anyway, good. Final Four. I think this is. It's weird. It's unconventional, but the. I like both of the matchups, so we'll see what happens. I didn't finish my list for you. Before we go. My. My four. My four titles. My. Should have won titles. Number one, 1958, Phil Russell, sprained ankle.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Bob Pettit. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Number two, Bob Pettit. Number two, 2009, kg. Number three, 1982, tiny Archibald shoulder. I still think we win.

[Ryan Rosillo]

When I talked to Tibbs about the 2009 team, I was in a room with him.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

And we started talking about 2009. I think it moved.

[Bill Simmons]

Really?

[Ryan Rosillo]

He was that excited?

[Bill Simmons]

Number four, 1973. Havelich's brain. Shoulder. Separated shoulder, Knicksers. The three we shouldn't have won. 1969, 1976, 1981. So we're plus one. But I wouldn't put 25. I. I thought. Thought this team had a chance, but, you know, it's. I'm not gonna let.

[Ryan Rosillo]

That's the other thing, though.

[Bill Simmons]

40 years from now and be like, oh, we should have won that year. Like, the team. I don't know. The Porzingis thing was super weird.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I don't think the Knicks fan base would have celebrated the same way if it wasn't the Boston, New York thing. And the fact that, like, there was all of these matchup things that I thought were going to be a problem for New York, and even if they were, because it's the times when the Celtics had to lead, you're going, all right, this makes sense. This is what it was supposed to look like. And it's like, oh, okay. Brunson is so fired up in this spot, and you guys are not.

[Bill Simmons]

So we're so good to see you. We'll be back next Sunday. You have your podcast Tuesday and Thursday. I look forward to talking more basketball with you. Thanks.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah. Let's talk hoops.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Gahao and Eduardo. As always, thanks to Rosillo. I am going to be back, I think, on Tuesday and probably on Thursday as well. And I'm going to be in the rewatchables. I'm going to do in Close Encounters of the third kind and I will see you Monday and Tuesday.

[Ryan Rosillo]

When we.

[Bill Simmons]

Must be 21 plus in president select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + in President D.C. gambling problem. Call 1-800-Gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-887-897777 or visit CCPG in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplianma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. What do I look forward to every NBA playoff season? Well, I'm always hoping the Celtics do well. I'm always hoping we have great storylines, great games, great great matchups, great game Sevens. I just hope for good basketball. But the NBA playoffs are even better with Michelobotra, the official beer partner of the NBA. Plus, they're getting fans closer to the game with a chance to win courtside tickets and more. Enter now at michelobocher.com courtside Micheloboltra Superior Access Courtside 2024-25 sweepstakes. No purchase necessary. Open to US residents 21 or older. Ends on July 1, 2025. Multiple entry periods. Visit michelobulture.com SuperiorAccess Courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and official rules. Message and data rates may apply. Void where prohibited. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. Every basketball team that's still alive in the playoffs has one thing in common. Their key trades and signings throughout the season paid off, giving each team the talent needed to make a run at the championship. With a small business, your success directly depends on the new talent you add to your team. And a great place to find that talent is LinkedIn. They know hiring is a big deal for small businesses, not only because small businesses are wearing so many hats, but also because every hire is crucial for a growing company. That's why LinkedIn pairs you with the best candidates, using data you won't find anywhere else. From unique skills and interests to the connections you have in common, LinkedIn also lets you go beyond candidates who are actively applying in a given week. 171 million LinkedIn members aren't actively applying seeking jobs, but they are open to new opportunities. That's a big pool to miss out on. So find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com Simmons that's LinkedIn.com Simmons to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply.