← The Bill Simmons Podcast
The Bill Simmons Podcast
OKC Gets Wobbled, Cleveland’s Done, and Knicks Nirvana Is Here (Maybe) With Zach Lowe and Sean Fennessey
01:40:19
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- [00:01]
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- [01:06]
Bill Simmons
The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. The conference finals finally is here. We are down to four teams. Think you know it'll go down. Take your shot with fanduel. Get closer to the action and as you know, I've been telling you for years, FanDuel the best place to bet the teams, players and plays during the NBA postseason. Build the same game parlay for a shot at a better payout or try live betting and jump into the action after tip off. Or just follow me and my picks because every once in a while I'll put them on social. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app right now and play your game 21 select states are 18 DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Game problem call 1-800-Gambler, call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat Connecticut Sam. Bill Simmons podcast live here on Netflix. Zach Lowe is here. You can hear his pie. He just put one up last night. Little post game reaction to Nick's Cavs. Your Tuesday mornings, Thursday mornings. I have rewatchables coming Monday. Last comedy movie that we that we did for month of May. Animal House.
- [02:35]
Zach Lowe
Wow. Classic.
- [02:37]
Bill Simmons
Really good. A lot of great lines. Had a great time. So that's coming. You can watch all those movies on Netflix. All right. We are coming off Oklahoma City San Antonio. Game four. I love Game Fours. Game Fours are always great. Game Fours are always like you bet three games of feeling each other out and then game four is the awesome game. Not today. That did not happen.
- [02:59]
Zach Lowe
But there's a Certain bu. There's a certain buzz for game fours because if it's a two, forget the three zero game fours like we're going to see tomorrow the two one game fours. It's the fork in the road game. It's either this is going to be an epic potential seven gamer or three one and it's going to have to be a crazy comeback to get it to seven now. Or at least we're looking. I just, I'm just cancel your Saturday plans now because I. Wouldn't you be surprised at this point if we go like, it doesn't feel like one of these teams is going to take the next two games consecutively.
- [03:29]
Bill Simmons
Counter. Okay, are we getting Jalen Williams the rest of the way here? And if we don't get him and we don't get AJ Mitchell, the thing that jumped out tonight was just all of a sudden OKC had one creator and San Antonio, you knew they were going to guard Shade differently tonight. I think that was the easiest prediction to make. Basically like, knock yourself out. We're going to guard the hell out of you. If you get 35, great. We're not letting these other guys get good shots. We're not letting them get going, which is what they did. But you could really feel the lack of a second creator in this game. So you lose Jalen Mitchell, I mean, Jalen Williams, but then you also don't have A.J. mitchell either. Now all that goes on McCain, who stunk tonight. And you know, in the fourth quarter, Aaron Wiggins. Aaron Wiggins was running offense for them. It was just weird. All of a sudden they felt depleted.
- [04:18]
Zach Lowe
Well, the whole fourth quarter was kind of a slow motion give up by the thunder. I mean, so Chet came back in the game, but SGA did it. But yeah, I mean there, there are game fours where you feel like, oh, did one team solve the other team? Even if it's a 2:2 series with. Did what the poster series for that is the 2015 final. Warriors went small and played the death lineup. And everyone was like, oh, is this, is this just a rap? Even though it's 2:2 and we should feel tense about it. I. I'm not like, I agree with you that something happened tonight that gave me a glimmer of that sensation. And it was the combination of softening the double teams on Shay to the point that we're just not doubling you high on the floor. If you get to within 14ft, we'll start darting guys at you, stunting guys at you, Maybe a hard double here and there. But it's going to come late and it's going to come suddenly and it's not going to come every time and it's going to be a much more confusing defense for you to pick apart because they were picking apart the traps and the combination of that plus to your point, the lack of your second and third best creators to play off of to throw the ball to. And it felt like huh. And I spent the second half of the game trying to think like if I now know this is coming and I don't have Jalen Williams and A.J. mitchell, what is, what is adjusting to this look like? Like Shay can get by anybody off the dribble and get into the 18 foot range. But what does life look like after that? How am I recreating the open threes and the good shots that we got if they're not just throwing guys at me? And I, I don't, I, I don't know the I, I'm, I workshopping some answers but I don't have any good ones yet.
- [05:59]
Bill Simmons
Well, and you didn't even mention they're also losing all the transition stuff. They're losing the fast break stuff. Cause he's the only guy that really felt in good hands. It was not a good, not a good night for the Kayson Wallace I'm worth 30 million a year agent strategy. Listen, game three, I thought Shay in game two and I didn't get to do anything after game three. I just thought Shay was just so good in those two games and just picking them apart and the way he was using his teammates, it was about as good as you can play the guard position. Right. So they knew they couldn't do whatever they did defensively. Again it was notable like his stats. Tirico mentioned that near the end of the game his stats aren't that good in this series for how well it seemed like he played those two games. Like I think he's under 40% for the series now. I mean Wemby was the best part in the four, which now makes two games where he was the best part in the four. And we're at 2:2, which is kind of where we thought we were going to be anyway. So I look at it like game two. I didn't love the officiating. I thought it really affected the game. Game four was the other way. I thought the officiating affected the game for in San Antonio's favorite Dort and caruso. Dort had 4,009 minutes. Caruso had four fouls in 12 minutes and it just like they weren't allowed to have the same physicality that they've had in some of these other games. There was big free throw advantages for San Antonio. That was one thing. Wemby had a superstar game. And then I thought Castle, the two way game he played and the stuff he was doing defensively, I just thought he was awesome tonight. Castle, flat out awesome.
- [07:29]
Zach Lowe
The loudest 13.6 assist game like possible, I think. And all none of the guards. Harper seven points in 21 minutes. Fox 12 points in 31 minutes. Castle 13 and 30. It doesn't like jump off the page that any of them played great. I thought Fox looked pretty good with the ankle stuff and Harper had a couple of explosive plays that are pretty encouraging for how he's feeling. But just the presence of them. 12 turnovers for the spurs, that's the thing, that's a winning recipe and just a calm to the offense. And on the other side, the Thunder finished with 33 threes attempted, but they only had 11 at halftime. And I thought that number would really stood out as like they're just not creating open shots against this defense right now. And Wemby, he was 1 for 11
- [08:20]
Bill Simmons
for 3 for them, by the way.
- [08:22]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, he wasn't just the best player in the game for the second time in the series. He was the best player by a mile in the, in a game for the second time in the series. And like that's also kind of alarming for the Okloba City Thunder that he's the best player by that much in half the series.
- [08:36]
Bill Simmons
Now, did you think the half court shot was going in? Because I did. So I was like, that's going in.
- [08:43]
Zach Lowe
I knew it was going in.
- [08:45]
Bill Simmons
I sound like LeBron. I'm like, I knew when he took it, I knew it was going in, but it really was like, hey, he's going to make this.
- [08:50]
Zach Lowe
I knew it was going in, but I only knew because I was about two minutes behind in the game and our text thread blew up and y' all ruined it for me. Like my friend ruined Tyrone Taylor's three run tying home run against the Yankees last week by texting me before I had seen it. So I knew, I knew, I knew it was just a bunch of wows. So I knew something was going to happen and then obviously that was it.
- [09:12]
Bill Simmons
I want to talk about Wemby in one second. You mentioned something about the guards and none of the box scores were spectacular, but to me the turnovers was the big thing because that's what killed them, you know, especially in Game 2. But Fox, even though Fox wasn't amazing, at least he can take care of the ball. That allows Castle to be more of a two way, like, freelancer guy. And I just felt like their team seemed like their team tonight. It was the team that we watched all year. Now there's some weird stuff happening. We see this happen in a series where you just start losing guys you can trust. As the series goes along, I no longer think champagne shots are going in. I. I no longer think Keldon Johnson shots are going in. So those are two, two pretty big guys for them during the season that now feel like they're in like a major, major funk. And I, I'm wondering, like, we get to like a game six, game seven, like really like these seven minutes are going to determine our season. It feels like it's going to be the three guards with Vesel and Wemby will be the lineup that. It's kind of like this is it. These are our best five. What is it for okc? Like, if we don't have Jalen Williams again, I assume Caruso's out there with SGA and probably Chet. But what, like, is it just a feel for the game or do you even feel like they have a best five at this point?
- [10:31]
Zach Lowe
I think it's a feel for the game. And it starts with, do we feel better with two bigs, one big. If it's two, is it Hartenstein, Hartenstein, Rather and Chet who were minus 28, I think, coming into this game. But you know, Hartenstein was carrying the offense early on with like one ridiculously high flow.
- [10:51]
Bill Simmons
That was unbelievable.
- [10:52]
Zach Lowe
Just one of the great stretches of random shot making in recent playoff history.
- [10:56]
Bill Simmons
He led them in shots tonight, I think.
- [10:59]
Zach Lowe
No, Shay caught him at the end.
- [11:01]
Bill Simmons
Did Shay catch him?
- [11:02]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, he was tied for second with Aaron Wiggins. Not a great. Just not a great statistical indicator for the Thunder. So which two big guys do you want or is just one big guy? And then if it's one big guy, you're really like, you're. You're scraping the end of your perimeter. Fill out guys that we really trust with. You know, Case and Wallace would probably be in there with Caruso. And then like Dort has done pretty much nothing this year is. Except foul and missed threes. And. And yeah, we. The other guys are injured, you know.
- [11:32]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, if he's just going to foul and miss threes, at least, like get some cheap shots in and try to change the tenor of the series. Whatever he's doing has not worked. They played 11 guys, plus topic at the end. So they put 11 guys for real during the flow of the game, but also didn't have J Dub and also didn't have AJ Mitchell. This Thunder team is so bizarre to watch in the playoffs. There's been all these cool stats about all the lineups they use and it's almost like watching a hockey team and then he's constantly mixing and matching. But sometimes I wonder, like at some point as a playoff series goes along, I need to figure out who my five are, who my six are, who my seven are. It's just like Wiggins, like Wiggins hasn't played really all playoffs and tonight it felt like they actually needed him. So I don't know, it's. This has been a weird one because I felt like after each game I became convinced that the team that won was in great shape and, and then it just flips, which I guess is the point of a seven game series. But now I, I honestly think San Antonio has the advantage, though.
- [12:37]
Zach Lowe
I, I have no idea. I'm going to wait. If, if those two guys are out the whole series, Mitchell and JDub and the, the spurs injured guards can play at this level, then I agree with you. San Antonio, despite having only one home game left, has probably an edge in the series because of what we saw tonight. And, and I think the Thunder's best five, the lineup I've been waiting to see and I think they've been waiting to use. Well, two of the five are, are not playing right now and it would, the lineup would have been Shea, Mitchell, Caruso, J Dub, Chet, and I think that's the best five that they can put out. It did not play much in the regular season. It got unleashed early in the series and it just, as soon as we saw it, it's gone. And certainly the lack of any clarity on timetables for either guy has me a little concerned right at this moment, late at night, on whatever night this is. But maybe we'll get an encouraging update tomorrow. I don't know.
- [13:27]
Bill Simmons
The Mitchell one seems more concerning because calf strain is just automatic. You're out for at least a week, right? We don't. If they, if they'd given it the, you know, when you're reading the, the injury stuff, like the mild calf strain, calf tweak, that kind of, this was like calf strain. So calf strain to me means seven to 10 days, which probably takes him out. And he didn't look right even before he got hurt. You could tell like there was something up the, the J Dub thing, I have no idea. This has been the longest hamstring injury, I think, in league history. It feels like this is just his body has not been healthy. What did they say? He's finished two, two playoff games or something out of the three rounds?
- [14:10]
Zach Lowe
Well, and it's weird because when he comes back, he looks good. Like, it's not like he's good in game one. Yeah, he's an into it. He did. He looks 70%. He looks like pretty, pretty close to all NBA J Dub. And it does change their team. You're reminded like, oh, having a giant wing who can do all of these different things on both ends of the floor, super valuable. And then it just. He just can't kick it. And it might be one of these things that just requires a little bit more sustained off time to just disappear or work itself out. And obviously they don't have the luxury of that right now.
- [14:44]
Bill Simmons
They're minus 250 to win the series. Oklahoma City, which I just completely disagree with.
- [14:50]
Zach Lowe
That's when that's updated.
- [14:52]
Bill Simmons
Now that's on FanDuel. Yeah. Minus 250.
- [14:54]
Zach Lowe
Wow.
- [14:55]
Bill Simmons
I do not agree with that because I thought Harper. Harper looked back to me tonight. He had that one dunk in traffic where he exploded. Like, he seems okay. Fox, you can tell, is, you know, 75, 80% speed, but is still able to be a point guard and run the offense and all that stuff. I have an important question for you. Okay. Who do you think the rest of the league is rooting for in this series? Like, both competitively and like long term, big picture.
- [15:27]
Zach Lowe
I think, I think both of these teams are looked upon as, oh boy, we got to deal with this for the next however many years. And there would almost be. The easy answer is the people are rooting for the spurs, right? Because of all the officiating stuff and the Thunder getaway, the fouls and the flops. Flopper. Like they're just straight up hitting Shea with the flopper chant in San Antonio, which very good performance by the spurs fans all around. Like, you gotta be. If you're gonna chant like that, you just gotta get right to the point and be as mean as possible. And it's a one word chant and it. And it does the job. But I will say there, there, even. Even though the OKC is the correct answer for like, who teams are rooting against, I guess the rest of the league is rooting against. There would also be like a Woo Victor's already here. Like if they win, there's like a. They're already in the finals. Like, that seems, that seems fast. Oh, my God. But I think, I think OKC is the answer.
- [16:23]
Bill Simmons
You know who's rooting for OKC to lose? The Milwaukee Bucks.
- [16:28]
Zach Lowe
Oh, boy. We're going there. We're going right there.
- [16:31]
Bill Simmons
Veering right in there just becomes a quick, honest panic.
- [16:34]
Sean Fennessy
Tra.
- [16:35]
Bill Simmons
Right away.
- [16:35]
Zach Lowe
Do you think that that is something? I, I, I'm not ready, I'm not ready to contemplate it yet. I'm just, I'm just not. I mean, it's, it's totally against their playbook. And we go through all of this, they won the championship last year. Here they are 2, 2 in the Western Conference finals against another 60 plus win team, and it's already like, well, if they lose two out of the next three games, we got to upend everything. I know the salary stuff. I know the consolidation. I got it. Like, we're already going there. Like, maybe we, I don't know.
- [17:03]
Bill Simmons
Maybe. Here's why we're going there.
- [17:04]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, okay.
- [17:06]
Bill Simmons
Here's why.
- [17:07]
Zach Lowe
I'll go for a drive. Let's go for a drive.
- [17:09]
Bill Simmons
No, here's why. This is it. If I'm, if I'm OKC and I lose this series to a Spurs team that's this young and isn't even close to being the team they are yet, and Wemby is the difference, and I just have no answers for him, what do I do if I'm OKC the rest of the decade? Do I just be like, ah, we had some bad luck, or, or do I look at it differently and go, okay? Almost like, how Minnesota, when Tim Connelly went there, it was like, I have to build a team to beat the joker. And I think the question for OKC would be, we thought we were going to dominate the decade. That's not going to happen. How do we construct the kind of team that can beat a generational freak? And do we have the right team right now? Was that just a weird two weeks? Or do we have the wrong roster to beat this guy? And that's where you have to think about Giannis.
- [17:58]
Zach Lowe
I think you better know the answer to that question is we just don't have the right roster with a thousand percent certainty. If after all the success you've had, you are willing to throw the throw, not throw it away, but mix it up to that extent based on the result of a few games, and that extent is going to be minimum one of J Dub and Chet and a bunch of picks and role players and everything you've Got. It's the last big move you've got for a 31 year old who has not gotten through a playoffs healthy in quite some time. You just, you just got to be sure, like, yep, he broke us. We, like, we got to try something now because we'll never beat him again. You got to really be sure.
- [18:41]
Bill Simmons
And I agree with that.
- [18:43]
Zach Lowe
Sure.
- [18:44]
Bill Simmons
But, but here's the, here's the wrinkle, Hartenstein. I think it's a team option for next year. Right. For a lot of money. Combined with that, they're going to have three max guys and they have the dort team option and they have the case and Wallace extension thing coming. This was their best roster. The way all the money work. Chance to compete against a Wemby team. And if they're going to lose already and the money is about to go up when they have all these picks, when they have the 12th pick in place, I just feel like you have to look at it holistically and be like, okay, this is. It's reset time. Like, because the other thing they could do is just bring back Hartenstein at that, at that price. If they, they, if they don't pick it up, he's going to go to free agency and he'll get 20 plus million from, I think, a bunch of different teams. There's teams that have cap space and trade exceptions and all kinds of things. Like, I promise you, the Celtics would be in on that with the giant trade exception they have. So it's just, it's a weird one and it's a weird spot to be for your okc. We're like, wow, I thought we were going to dominate the last five years. Now it's two. Two. What do I do? Flip side, San Antonio is fine. Like, win or lose this series. They're like, whatever. Like, we're, we're happy to be here. Yeah. We could probably tweak around it. We'll figure out in February they're not there. There'll be no panic at all. Okay. See, I'd have to wonder if they panic a little. First of all, does not panic.
- [20:06]
Zach Lowe
Well, well done. Thank you for mentioning the last thing, because I was. I had two editorial comments for you after that. Number one, really good job bringing up the Celtics even though they haven't played in three weeks.
- [20:16]
Bill Simmons
Thank you. Contractually, I had to.
- [20:19]
Zach Lowe
Do you want to do a deep div on Vuchevic and his market and whether any cap space teams want him?
- [20:24]
Bill Simmons
We know his market. It's called the, it's called the Veteran Minimum.
- [20:27]
Zach Lowe
And this. I was going to say before you. I was going to say I have to. We have to strike a deal now. Yeah. I mean, I won't even be your guest on the next podcast because that's not how this works. But the deal was going to be if the Thunder win game 5 and go up 3, 2. You are not allowed to go through spurs packages for Giannis. You're not allowed to do it. You're banned from. We can't react that way to one spurs loss. Is that. Can we make that deal or are you going to go off the. On that one?
- [20:53]
Bill Simmons
What about. What about Trey Murphy?
- [20:56]
Zach Lowe
Fine. That's fine. That's reasonable. That. That's. That's allowed.
- [20:59]
Bill Simmons
I will allow. Can we all agree Giannis and Wemby just is too weird and probably doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
- [21:05]
Zach Lowe
But weird is what you're going for, right? Like, weird is what the Jazz are going for. Weird is what you have to go for if you think this is the insurmountable alien mountain that we just can't climb and. And, like, we gotta try something different. That's different. Those two guys together on defense, Giannis isn't the same guy. He has been defensively as a help defender around the rim. Those two guys together, it's something. I don't know what it is on offense, but it's something.
- [21:30]
Bill Simmons
What do you think happened to Wemb on game three in game three, now that we just saw game four, what was he tired? Did they just have a bad strategy? I thought it was really weird watching in real time. I know you talked a little bit about it last night, but I didn't understand that stay in the strategy at all. I didn't understand why he was so far away from the basket. I didn't understand why they weren't playing with pace. He seemed a little sluggish to me, and it was really making me wonder, did that double OT game, was that just a huge tax for both teams? But especially with him having played that many minutes then he looked fine tonight. So, you know, two. Two days later, you throw it out the window. But what do you think happened to him in game three? Was it pressure? Was it too much adrenaline? Did OKC do something like, what was your take on that?
- [22:16]
Zach Lowe
I mean, without being in his head, I assume there's a little bit of all the, like, unquantifiable stuff you're talking about, right? Fatigue, you know, this is a guy whose minutes have been pretty monitored throughout his career, and now it's just Balls to the wall. You got to play 49 minutes in game one, whatever it was. Pressure, home, playoff debut, Thunder, Chet, the whole thing. But I also think it took them some time to adjust to after six, what, five regular season games and then the game one of the, the Thunder pretty much exclusively guarding him one way. Then they go scrap everything, all of that and guard him another way with big guys with the single minded goal of we're not letting you get lobs at the rim and offensive rebounds, we're going to take your shot selection and shove it outside. And he that A, they executed well. B, I think their initial reaction was the spurs are a little back on their heels and Victor was a little bit back on his heels and he kind of like went along with that. And tonight it was going to be like both he and the guards. And I thought Castle set him up on a couple early pick and rolls really well. There was just not going to be any denying that he's going to the basket even if it's not all the way there. I'm just going to take one little dribble and reach and it's going to be a hook shot or he tried to throw the ball off the backboard to himself two times like it was just, he was just not going to settle. Look, his first three shots were still jumpers. He took a fair amount of jumpers in the game, but there was just a different mentality and aggression level to his game. And I think that's just, I think that's just feeling out an elite defense who threw a monkey wrench into your plans halfway through, you know, the series or whatever.
- [23:51]
Bill Simmons
I agree with that. I think there's one other piece. It seemed like they were really trying to attack and get to the basket and get in the paint and get to the rim. I don't, I haven't seen the we tape right after these games end, but I would guess the stats for them in the paint were a little bit different this game. And it felt like they were like just let's attack, throw the ball near the rim for Wemby. Let's just like go downhill a little bit more because that game three was just weird to watch them. It always felt like they were either going backwards or sideways and never like going, going toward the rim. The Chet piece though, he made all NBA today.
- [24:29]
Zach Lowe
Yeah. What, what's, what's our collective level of remorse for Jalen Duran over Scotty Barnes at this, at this point after the
- [24:38]
Bill Simmons
playoffs for me, zero. I'm not taking any shit for that I'm voting centers every year for each team. And until as long as I have a vote, I'm not changing because we decided to make this like Little League where everybody gets a participation trophy to be in an all NBA team. I'm not throwing away 75 years of history because they stupidly decided to change the rules. I want a center or somebody who can resemble a center. I want each of my teams to kind of look like a basketball team.
- [25:02]
Zach Lowe
Okay. I don't want to detour down Jalen Duran, but.
- [25:04]
Bill Simmons
No, I'm just saying. But. But it's a regular season award. I have no regrets.
- [25:09]
Zach Lowe
Now let's talk about Chet.
- [25:13]
Bill Simmons
I thought he was a little better than this and I. Maybe he's in a funk, but I really was more of a believer than what I'm seeing. And I don't mean to do the, you know, the morning TV show. Chet Holmgren's got to step up. Like, I'm not doing that. I just honestly thought he would have more of an impact. And from watching him this season, I really thought he had rounded into, you know, dead eye, three point shooter. Just really, really severely impactful defender. Just elevates your team in all these different ways. And it feels like Wemby's in his head. Like, I don't even like his body language. The only other time I remember his body language like this was in the Indiana series. I felt like you could feel him sliding a little bit a couple times in that series where the pressure, you can just kind of see it. He was carrying it, but I thought he shed that. And now it feels like Wemby's in his head. Now in his defense, Wemby's a 7 foot 7 alien who came out of a UFO. So I get it. I'm just saying. I honestly just thought he would play better than this.
- [26:16]
Zach Lowe
I think we're going to do some sort of pressure.
- [26:19]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, we did that after the break. Yeah.
- [26:20]
Zach Lowe
But I mean, not to spoil one of my potential picks, depending on draft order, chet Holmgren has 45 points in four games in this series. He took one three tonight. Despite the fact that the spurs are playing a good chunk of each of these games in like a hybrid zone defense where someone is going to be open from three and yeah, the guy closing out to you in the corner is going to be the alien. And I get it. And we're going to hear a lot of like, well, this just isn't a chat series. This just isn't a chat series. The matchup stuff for him the that's not acceptable.
- [26:50]
Bill Simmons
This is the team they have to beat for the next 10 years.
- [26:53]
Zach Lowe
Exactly what I'm going to say. This is exactly what I was going to say. At some point you reach a stature where every series has to be your series. And Chet is at that. Defensively, he's infallible. The guy's amazing. He's going to bring that every game. He just has like there was just one. There was one play tonight where they're guarding him with wings the whole game. Right? That's just what they're doing for the most part. And he just sort of faced up and burrowed his way to like the dotted line against Devin Vassell, drew some help and kicked out to Case and Wallace. For the only three that Case and Wallace made in the game. It's like, well, I mean, like what we can't get a little bit. When you're. When Shay's game is off, when the whole offense is clogged up, you can't do like we can't get a little more of that. I know he's. We do this with Mobley too, right? Like, he's not going to put his head down and post up and get us 25 like any big man, but like 45 points in four games, it just is not enough. I mean, it's.
- [27:49]
Bill Simmons
Especially when you're starting to lose scores on your team game by game. It was just. I just think it's been a weird series. All right, we're going to take a break and we're going to come back and we're going to do pressure rankings for what might end up being an awesome seven game series right after this. This episode is brought to you by America's cookout classics. Heinz, Kraft and Oscar Mayer. This summer we're celebrating 250 years of America cookouts with all the classics. Heinz, Kraft and Oscar Meyer. I love hot dogs. Anytime it's a cookout, you have to have multiple kinds of hot dogs. I need different kind of food. Like some people like the burgers and the turkey burgers. Got to have the right playlist in place. Got to grill some vegetables, but for the most part you really need the hot dogs. And I need multiple types of mustard too. Make sure to top the burger with only the best Heinz ketchup and Kraft singles. I'm a ketchup and burgers guy. Dress up your sides to impress all summer long with Kraft real mayo and Kraft dressing. No matter how you cook out, you'll find the same favorites on every table. Heinz Kraft and Oscar Mayer shop at your local retailer. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn for small business. Every hire matters, but the time and resources required to hire a writer Limited. Luckily, LinkedIn Hiring Pro is built for that reality. It's your hiring partner designed to help you hire with confidence by surfacing only the right candidates without turning hiring into another full time job. Hiring Pro streamlines the entire process, from drafting your job to shortlisting candidates and conducting AI powered screening interviews. Its conversational interface lets you describe what you need in plain language. No recruiter jargon needed. Nearly 60% of hires find a candidate to interview within a week. With Hiring Pro, you spend less time searching and more time connecting with the right talent. Hire right the first time. Get started by posting your first job for free@LinkedIn.com Simmons that's LinkedIn.com Simmons. Terms and conditions apply. Let's do the pressure rankings then. Let's go.
- [29:42]
Zach Lowe
I'm coming.
- [29:43]
Bill Simmons
I'm coming back.
- [29:43]
Zach Lowe
Like Devin Vassella hitting a trail three on the delayed, delayed break.
- [29:47]
Bill Simmons
I like that I'm criticizing Chet that I screwed up the break that I didn't have going into the thing. Well, we're going to do something like pick my nose.
- [29:54]
Zach Lowe
Well, go well. Yeah, that was dangerous times. Do you want to pick first your show?
- [29:59]
Bill Simmons
Well, you pick first and you just took. I assume Chet's your first pick or you want somebody else.
- [30:04]
Zach Lowe
No, I. I would want somebody else, but I did just do a Chet thing. So we'll pretend that's my first pick.
- [30:08]
Bill Simmons
I will. No, I'll pick first. Yeah, I'll take Chet first.
- [30:11]
Zach Lowe
Okay.
- [30:12]
Bill Simmons
I think Chad has the most pressure and the biggest spotlight on him now as we head into the rest of this series of where is it he just. Especially on the heels of the all NBA thing. I need to feel you more in this series. Chet Holmgren. You know, we talked about this with Evan Mobley too, and I do feel like I know they're down 3 nothing, but I do feel like Evan Mobley went up like a half level as the playoffs went along. And I just felt like defensively, I put it this way, the position they're in is not Evan Mobley's fault, I don't think. And I thought he rose to the occasion. I would like to see that from Chet. So what would be your first pick for the pressure rankings?
- [30:51]
Zach Lowe
Well, I'll just steal your thunder and go straight to the top. Shea has had an okay series. Oh, he's shooting 39% through four games and less than 30% on threes. He's, his turnovers are up. He had four turnovers tonight and a bunch of them are the same. Kind of like I'm just going to kind of bulldoze my way into traffic and oh my God, all these guards are awesome defensively. I just fell over and I don't have the ball anymore. Turnovers and I, look, I get it, it's Victor Wama, right? They're, they're. The spurs have the one guy who can fuck up all the shit you're trying to do, all the stuff that works against every other team and you get into the lane, you get into all your sweet spots and all of a sudden it's, it's, it's. There's a guy right behind you messing with your airspace back there and this guy over here, he's just going to have to problem solve his way out of this and have, if they're going to win this series, win two of the next three games and J Dub is going to be out and Mitchell's going to be out and we don't know, but let's just say I think he's going to have to have two efficient games. They're not going to be like the crazy 16 of 23. Oh my God, this is the best guard we've seen since Michael Jordan or whatever you want to say. But like 10 of 20, 11 of 22. I just think he's going to have to dig his way out of this and problem solve it. Especially if we, like we talked about before, if the spurs aren't going to kind of half give him the answers by trapping him at half court with his, where his decision tree becomes a little easier. You know, look, we were talking about a guy who's a two time MVP now back to back finals MVP last year. We've talked all season about all the historical stuff that he's on the precipice of. Well, this is the precipice. The precipice is digging out of this series. And I'm not saying he's got pressure on him. Like I'm going to think differently of him if they lose this series or he's been a flopping fraud the whole time or anything like that. But it's just like this is it. This is the moment where if the all time greats find a way to dig out of whatever Victor Wembanyama is
- [32:52]
Bill Simmons
doing to you, I like how you frame that. And if he has a chance to be an all time great, it's moments like this when you don't have the same team that you started the playoffs with and you're playing a ferocious opponent. Like, the best example ever of this is Jordan in the 98 playoffs.
- [33:09]
Zach Lowe
Those guys make the same computer.
- [33:11]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Scotty's back goes out, Rodman's doing whatever. He's getting drunk every off day. He's going to Vegas and Jordan just is like, all right. And just, you know. But that's the greatest basketball player we've ever had. There's been other good examples. Like my favorite bird season was 87 when Mikhail had the foot, Parish had an ankle, D.J. had an ankle, Bill Walton couldn't play, and Bird just kept kind of throwing people on his back. Feels like we're there with sga. I think one thing, there's one of the narratives from coming out of this game into game five will be the officiating and that OKC got hosed on calls and their fan base, and I don't blame them, their fan base is going to say, you guys complain about us that we get all the calls, we get to foul, we flop. Well, we didn't get any calls in game four. And. And SGA got banged around by Castle and they didn't call it, but Wemby got banged around and they called it. And. And we want more fair treatment for mvp. So that'll be a whole narrative the next two days. With that said, I'm just not really that afraid of leaving some of the guys open that were out there. Right. Like, I'm okay with Wallace wide open. I'm okay with Lou Dort. Caruso is the Josh Hart of this team. It's like you're going to live with it until he makes a couple. You know, they had. Williams was out. Kenrick Williams was out there at one point hitting corner threes, but I just don't know who I trust on that team. Isaiah Joe seems like their Instant 3 guy, but they don't seem to go in that often anymore. And then Wiggins would be the other one, but I just think they're going to guard him the same way they did tonight and he's going to have to be awesome. Well, if you're doing. If you're doing same game parlays like the SGA points with the OKC win would be the reliable one, I think, for game five.
- [34:52]
Zach Lowe
I think those Kenrich Williams corner threes are really interesting plays to go back and rewatch because the spurs found a bit of a roadmap tonight. And look, the roadmap is having Victor Weba Yama. But this roadmap was Shay. You pick your matchup at the top of the arc, like 35ft away. You want to run a screen roll and get champagne on you or Vasil on you or someone. You feel a little more comfortable with Fox than you do Harper Castle. Fine, we'll give you the switch. You're going to beat that guy off the dribble.
- [35:21]
Bill Simmons
Cool.
- [35:21]
Zach Lowe
Beat him off the dribble. We're not going to double you. We're not even. Take your two. Because if you beat a guy off the dribble one on one, it's not like that guy disappears. He's going to be right on your hip at the cadence. Shave plays and then you're going to get to 16ft. And when you get to 16ft, a couple things are going to happen. Thing number one is the alien is going to be in your airspace a little bit. Thing number two is there may not be a double team, but you're going to see the guy on your right and the guy on your left kind of on their toes, half stunting, half getting you in your field division, messing with, messing with your mind. And those reads, those moments, I. I don't know what the answer is when you're in that kind of sandwich of like four guys all around you and one of them Victor Wembanyama.
- [36:02]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [36:03]
Zach Lowe
And you haven't been given a trap 30ft from the rim, which just unleashes the pass, pass, pass threes they've gotten. But that's where those Kenrich Williams threes in the right corner came out of. Is it. Is that moment just like that? And maybe the answer is the Thunder are just going to have to play all their shooters and hope that they make enough of those threes that they get San Antonio out of that. Because I don't know what Shay's supposed to do in that airspace or how to get him in a different airspace against that defense. Like, there was that one floater he took where you could see him thinking like, I'm Shay, Gil. I got to get something in this space. And it was just this moon ball, one handed, right handed moon ball that had no shot at going in. And it was like, you don't see a player of his skill set. Look that like, unleash a shot that like, is a no chancer from 13ft away.
- [36:53]
Bill Simmons
Jalen Williams, not the injured one, the center, one for seven from three tonight. McCain was zero for five. Isaiah Joe was two for seven. Dort was zero for one.
- [37:05]
Zach Lowe
Caruso took one shot, I think, right.
- [37:07]
Bill Simmons
Chet was zero for one.
- [37:08]
Zach Lowe
Yeah.
- [37:08]
Bill Simmons
Caruso little one. Too many greatest role players ever segments for him on podcasts and TV shows. Last two days, the gods had to, like. Had to, like, ding him with the. With the hammer. But those shots, I thought for the most part were pretty open, and they just didn't make them. When you. They missed 31 of their first 35 threes. Right.
- [37:27]
Zach Lowe
Dort has 15 points in the whole series, and I know we're not going to him for. I think he has two threes, and I know we're not going to him for points. Like, that's not what he does. But the Thunder, when they're rolling and when they won the championship, there's just a lot of Lou Dort 2 for 5, 3 for 7 kind of games where he just makes just enough to make it hurt. And he has two in four games.
- [37:56]
Bill Simmons
That's somebody that I don't feel like will be in the Thunder next year. Team option. They've got to put money somewhere. It's a different conversation. All right, my next pressure pick. You know, you just took the best guy. I know.
- [38:12]
Zach Lowe
Casey, I was going to say, I've left you with not much to do.
- [38:15]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, it really has to be Wemby. And normally I would say, ah, he's 22 and he's playing with house money at this point. He's. This is this. Playoffs have already been a massive win for him. But A, they have a chance to win the title. B, we saw him get a little spooked in game three. I felt like. Or whatever was going on with him. So it's not like he's. We know he's human because if he wasn't human, he would just be rolling through the league every game. Um, but I wonder, as we get closer and closer to the end of this and the spotlight gets bigger, his tendency is the hotter the spotlight, the better he plays. So we'll see. But it just feels like if he has a game like he had in game one, or even a game like he had tonight, then I feel like they're going to win the series with the injuries on OKC side kind of up to him. What's your next one?
- [39:06]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, if he. If he's the best guy by a significant margin, obviously that's a. That's a big one. I was going to cheat and just go. The collective of Fox, Harper, Castle, and only because the guard crew. The guard crew only because keeping the turnovers down is the single best way to get yourself into A game against the Thunder. They did that tonight and it's been a little up and down throughout the series because two of those guys have played limited minutes in a couple of games and Castle's been over taxed. But if, if, like, I mean you would want to single out Fox because he's the, the vet, the experience guy. But I just think the three of them together have to have a very clean game. Two more very clean games.
- [39:47]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. I would have taken Castle with my next pick for. Just because of some of the stuff I talked about in my pod on Thursday about the Westbrook 2008-2016. That side where he's just. You love everything he does. But there's, there's a couple times he gets a little out of control, a little sloppy. Now that Fox is there, it feels like that goes away. My next guy would be McCain because if they don't have Mitchell and they don't have Jalen Williams and I thought he, I, he just didn't have it tonight. He was terrible. And this was after a weekend of everybody shitting on Daryl and oh my God. And I can't believe they traded him. So where'd you stand on that trade?
- [40:25]
Zach Lowe
When it happened, I was surprised. I was certainly surprised that it was the way Philadelphia chose to save money. I was, I just, I, I wouldn't give up a player that had showed me what he showed in all, albeit 20 whatever games as a rookie. I was kicking myself for not anticipating the Thunder being the team to overpay and get him. It was just such a perfect trade and such a perfect fit. He's sort of like their super duper version of Isaiah Joe. Not, not, not the shooter that he is, but someone who with a lot more ball handling juice and kind of moxie to his game. I understand. I understood why the Sixers did it.
- [41:06]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [41:06]
Zach Lowe
And that they got more return than they were going to get ever trading Jared McCain because he was not playing for their team, which is also their fault. But. And that he was trapped behind those two guards who were going to be their franchise mainstays. But I don't know. It seemed like a unnecessary gamble to me.
- [41:25]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. So he wasn't playing for them. And I think the, the case was that his stock was only going to get worse and you're cashing in on these picks that are easier for trade. We've heard the arguments. My, the question remains to me is why wasn't he playing more. It's not like he was on the 86 Celtics and Maxi was playing 40 minutes a game. And Edge Como was playing like 39. So even if you say, well, he's behind those guys, it's like, well, so what? You still have 96 guard minutes per game. You still have an 82 game season, plus playoffs with, you know, injuries and all the wear and tear of a season. Like, why wouldn't you want to have three good guards? And it just, it felt like Nurse probably. Probably quit on him a little bit and it was only going to get worse. And it's like, whoa, if we get to the off season, we won't even be able to get a first for him. But I, I just. It was a weird one because he did so well last year as a rookie. You know, it's not, it's not like it's, oh, this. It wasn't like a Cam Reddish thing. It's like, oh, he's got so much potential. He was so good in high school. Like, Jerry McCain was good last year before he got hurt. So, so weird. Traded. And I get it that they wanted the assets, but wouldn't it be suspicious to you if OKC was like, we love Jared McCain. Here are a bunch of picks for him. That would be a fucking red flag. It's like, maybe we should keep this guy. Preston really wants him. Like, like, should we be reevaluated this?
- [42:48]
Zach Lowe
Yeah. You wonder if Sam Pricey. Yeah. You know, he's probably not gonna be in our rotation, but it's a nice flyer for us. And look, we have all these extra picks.
- [42:55]
Bill Simmons
Let's take some of our picks. We'll take them off your hands.
- [42:58]
Zach Lowe
And here he is in the rotation. But to your point, three point shooting is kind of cooled off. Even in his big game in, in game three, it was mostly twos.
- [43:06]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [43:06]
Zach Lowe
And he took a ton of shots, which is fine. They needed guys to take a ton of shots.
- [43:09]
Bill Simmons
It's a good pick.
- [43:10]
Zach Lowe
That's because if it's not those two guys, the J Dub and aj Then it's got to be.
- [43:14]
Bill Simmons
It's.
- [43:15]
Zach Lowe
Someone among this group is going to have to give you 18 to 22 points. Like, it's just. It's okay. Well, Case and Wallace was five of eight from three. It's going to have to be one of those guys.
- [43:25]
Bill Simmons
What do you have for your next pick? Do you have anybody left?
- [43:28]
Zach Lowe
Well, look, I mean, I don't know
- [43:30]
Bill Simmons
if we haven't taken a coach.
- [43:32]
Zach Lowe
Well, I mean, one coach just won the championship a year ago and the other coach is a. It, you know, was a former interim. Now Permanent fill in for one of the greatest coaches of all time. And this team won 60 whatever games. I don't, you know, I don't think there's any. I don't think any. Seats are getting hot.
- [43:48]
Bill Simmons
I'll go.
- [43:49]
Zach Lowe
I'll go. Like this is going to be near and dear to your heart. I don't know if the nuns can go to every game. But I just, I just. It's not his fault. It's not his fault. But Luke Cornett minus 9 and 13 minutes. I will just put him in as the sim. The symbol of. Even in this blowout game. Yeah, the non wemby minutes are just. Are. It's be. It's Yokichi now where it's just like. I don't know what the best lineup combination is. Do we throw all the guards out there? But I'll put him in as the unfair standalone symbol of those minutes.
- [44:24]
Bill Simmons
I thought Cornett was okay today.
- [44:26]
Zach Lowe
He was good. This was the best game of the series.
- [44:27]
Bill Simmons
I think I'm going with the two ladies who. Their bodies from the neck down were just on camera behind Mitch Johnson. And there was some commotion about them on the Internet heading into the game. Yeah, this wasn't the first time. And I think it's going to become a talking point. I think people are going to be looking forward to Game 6. Certain types of people on the Internets that enjoy these things, but it was certainly, it was certainly interesting every time they cut to Mitch Johnson, what was going on behind him.
- [45:00]
Zach Lowe
So you're saying they're under pressure?
- [45:02]
Bill Simmons
They're under pressure, yeah. Because now people are expecting it for game six. Like the spurs are up. Three, two. Yeah.
- [45:09]
Zach Lowe
Did you see. I know you're a fan of watching. We can. We like the way we watch games. We see the. In arena entertainment sometimes during the commercial breaks. Did you see Mark Henry's appearance tonight?
- [45:24]
Bill Simmons
I did not.
- [45:25]
Zach Lowe
Well, I mean, if you want to talk about someone who's under pressure, I would nominate Rumble. Rumble the Bison, the Thunder mascot was at this game in San Antonio. And in one, unless I took acid and hallucinated it. In one of the commercial breaks, they had Mark Henry come out from the stands and I was like, I don't know, like, what's Mark Henry doing here? What's going to happen? And he chair shotted Rumble the Bison and. And then kicked him a little bit on the ground while the Spurs Coyote, like freaking Jimmy Hart with the megaphone was like jumping around taunting Rumble the Bison. So my question for Rumble the Bison is why did you agree to this?
- [46:04]
Bill Simmons
Why are you at this game? Yeah, you're losing to Mark Henry.
- [46:06]
Zach Lowe
You didn't, you didn't think like, oh, the spurs are being so nice inviting me to the game. My mascot friend must really love me. You didn't think his setup was in play? And how are you going to respond? Is the coyote getting an invite? Is the coyote getting kidnapped? Like, how are you going to respond to this? You can't just let this stand.
- [46:21]
Bill Simmons
Maybe they're doing a home and home. Is that possible? Now he has to go to okc. I had a couple, couple side note things and then I want to ask you who you think is going to win game five. So there's a lot of role player Caruso, where he stands in the role play, role player all time rankings, all that stuff. Is he the best role player of the 2020s? Best role player of the century? Reggie Miller in the pregame show was talking about how important role players are and then proceeded to list multiple guys who aren't role players who were actually just really good players who were like borderline B A guys I didn't see he was going backwards and he was like, 20, 24, Derrick White. And then. And it was like, ah, Derek White's not a role player. I just. There's a specific type of role player Mount Rushmore that I think we have to discuss. And the first person who has to be mentioned anytime the conversation happens is Robert Hori. I just want to say that as a PSA to everybody who likes basketball, everybody has a platform. Robert Hori has to be the first person you mentioned. It can't be Alex Caruso, it can't be Derek Fisher. It has to be Robert Hori who won seven titles. This was. I put him in my pyramid. In my basketball book. He's the only role player that made it because he had so many big moments that I wrote this thing about. And I was like, if I told you the Robert Hori game is on ESPN Classic, you wouldn't know what game I was talking about.
- [47:49]
Zach Lowe
It could be any of seven games.
- [47:50]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Is he on the Lakers? Give me the team and I'll try to guess what game it is. So Robert Hori has to be first. And he's the perfect example of a role player where he doesn't matter if he's getting his stats. He always has a knack for getting better and it matters. He's always doing the dirty work. And that's, to me, a definition. Derek White's like a star, like He's a really good player. Iguodala is an interesting one. We're on Golden State. Golden State. Iguodala became a role player. Like an overqualified role player. Right? I think the four best are Hori, Iguodala, until Caruso, and I'm. And I want to add the Caruso combo really quickly. Hori, Warriors, Iguodala, Derek Fisher and Michael Cooper. Now I'm not. This is my lifetime, so I'm not doing Casey Jones, Satch Sanders, people like that. But I think those are the four. And then apologies to Bobby Jones, who I think was better than a role player. I actually think he was like a notch above. Mario Ellie is definitely there.
- [48:50]
Zach Lowe
Danny Ains.
- [48:51]
Bill Simmons
I don't know where to put him.
- [48:52]
Zach Lowe
Kiss of death Mario. Mario Ellie's one of my all time favorite role players.
- [48:55]
Bill Simmons
He's in there and then, and then Caruso. But does Caruso crack the top four for you, like post merger? Cause he's got the title on the Lakers. He's got the title of the okc. He has a chance to win another one. If you get three, like, you're really in a different conversation now.
- [49:11]
Zach Lowe
You know who has three with three different teams? Is Danny Green, also a very good one.
- [49:16]
Bill Simmons
Danny Green's another good one.
- [49:18]
Zach Lowe
Recent vintage.
- [49:18]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I'm going to add him, add him to the list. That's a great one.
- [49:21]
Zach Lowe
I think we need parameters to your point about Derek White and even Andre Guadala. Derrick White received all NBA votes this today. They came, the balloting came out. He received a few third team all NBA votes. I don't know if a role player can receive all NBA votes. And Iguodala is an all star like I, I did do. Are we allowing all stars, like one time, two time all stars. Drew Holiday, is he a role player? We do or we gotta throw them out.
- [49:45]
Bill Simmons
Well, so I guess the question is if you're one of your best four players on your team, are you a role player?
- [49:51]
Zach Lowe
I think the fourth best player could be in. In a lot of cases, a quote unquote role player.
- [49:57]
Bill Simmons
I think it has to be five through nine.
- [49:59]
Zach Lowe
Okay, that's fine. I'm fine with that. I'm just saying, like iguodala was a 20 point scorer in an all star. I believe he made an all star team in his early one. Maybe in his Sixers era. Maybe I'm wrong.
- [50:10]
Bill Simmons
Draymond Green's another one. Not a role player. Like don't put him in this. It has to be like Mara Ellie the team could win with or without the person. They could probably survive, but the person is the cherry on the Sunday. You know who's your favorite random role player ever? I mean, you're your guy who just never. Who never really landed on the right team. Josh Hart, by the way, is another role player. Mount Rushmore, potentially. But he hasn't won a title. But he's.
- [50:36]
Zach Lowe
That's a good one.
- [50:37]
Bill Simmons
He's.
- [50:38]
Zach Lowe
He's right at the point though. Is he too good for role player status?
- [50:44]
Bill Simmons
He's not a top four guy on his team. But is there a guy that you were like, man, if, if he had only just landed on the right team,
- [50:52]
Zach Lowe
I'm going to just throw three names at you. Just that you. No, no preparation. You're just.
- [50:56]
Bill Simmons
I know. I didn't prep you at all.
- [50:57]
Zach Lowe
Trevor Ariza.
- [51:00]
Bill Simmons
Well, Trevor Ariza won one though. He gets one for 09. So he gets to at least be in this little club. Okay. The SNL five Timers Club. You get the jacket at least. He might.
- [51:09]
Zach Lowe
He had better years than this because of the teams he was on. But I just had the softest of soft spots for Laphonzo Ellis.
- [51:17]
Bill Simmons
Oh, interesting.
- [51:17]
Zach Lowe
I like that one. Same era, same team. I just like late 90s me was like, man, these teams should be trying to get B on their team. He's like just, he's just a random, like a Mario Ellie kind of guy. Tough like he, you know, the heat got him at one point. I just, for some reason I just loved Sean Leonard. This just again, random names.
- [51:39]
Bill Simmons
I have one that never gets mentioned anymore and should is James Posey.
- [51:45]
Zach Lowe
Oh, yeah.
- [51:46]
Bill Simmons
Two out of three years won the title. Doing awesome role player stuff. There's other versions of it, right? There's the Eddie House type. I wouldn't say that fits for this. Fisher was an amazing one. Fisher had just one of the most bizarre careers ever. Was just in a million. I think he's like second or third most playoff games ever was on all of these different teams. Even when okc. He was basically a dead body on okc, you know? Cause he's like, well, it's still Derek Fisherman. Maybe he still has it. And they were still rolling with him.
- [52:16]
Zach Lowe
Okay, well, can I, can I throw another name? We're in Name Some Guys territory.
- [52:22]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [52:22]
Zach Lowe
Did Nick Batum ascend beyond this at his Portland prime?
- [52:27]
Bill Simmons
Never won that. Yeah, well, he's. He's a classic. Never. Did he even make a finals?
- [52:33]
Zach Lowe
I don't think so. All right, well, we named some guys. That was fun. Shout out for Sean Leonard. Oh, Tayshawn Prince is a fantastic.
- [52:42]
Bill Simmons
Counts, right?
- [52:43]
Zach Lowe
Oh, my God, he counts. Yes.
- [52:44]
Bill Simmons
Okay, great. Who do you have winning game five?
- [52:50]
Zach Lowe
I picked Thunder and seven. I'll pick the Thunder. Win game five. I don't. I don't. You. Someone asked me this. I was at the Knicks game the other day, game two, and people are like, oh, do you think he's gonna win? He thinks he went like, let me just. Let's just go through what's happened in the last two weeks. Cleveland, with a chance to close out the Pistons at home in game six, gets their asses kicked by a million points. And it's like, oh, the Pistons have all the momentum. They're going home for game seven. They lose by 30 points like the individual games. I don't know. I'm just going to say the Thunder because I picked the Thunder, but I will say something in my. You know what? No, forget it. Spurs. Spurs figured something out tonight, and the Thunder rattled. I'm going to go Spurs. I think Thunder and seven. Sticking with Thunder and seven.
- [53:31]
Bill Simmons
I think Spurs. I could. I would lean toward them. Game 5 because of the injuries. I don't think it'll mean they win the series. That's where I would land. Okay, I think it's. We're almost time to bring Sean Fennese in to talk about the Knicks, but before. As we. As we. As Sean warms up in the bullpen
- [53:55]
Zach Lowe
here, what are you.
- [53:59]
Bill Simmons
On a scale of 1 to 10, what are you prepared for with Cleveland in the off season if they get swept?
- [54:08]
Zach Lowe
I mean, everything. Anything. I mean, I don't.
- [54:11]
Bill Simmons
Do they have one person? You'd be like, no way they're trading that dude.
- [54:16]
Zach Lowe
No. Do you.
- [54:20]
Bill Simmons
So if they brought me in as a conciliary, okay, I would. Mobley would be my one keeper. I'd want another year with him. I liked how he played in the playoffs, and I just feel like I hang nothing on him. And if I'm giving up Mobley, I have to get somebody else back. I'm not trading Mobley for Giannis. That's an absurd trade. There's no way they should do that. It's crazy, because last year I suggested that would be the trade. All the Bucks fans.
- [54:44]
Zach Lowe
Why is it absurd?
- [54:46]
Bill Simmons
I just wouldn't do it. I don't think Giannis is changing the destiny of the Cavs winning the title. I don't think that was their issue. Their issue was that they have a backord of Donovan Mitchell and James Harden who can't guard any Guards.
- [54:58]
Zach Lowe
Well, I'm not. I was just playing devil's advocate because the argument for it, which you can find people who would make, I would be very hesitant to do it too. And probably not because then I've just made myself in two deals. I've made myself so much older all of a sudden, but I do, I do now have an interesting two year, three year window with Donovan Mitchell and Giannis. That's interesting, but I don't know that I've seen enough from this team to be like, well, we're, you know, we're so close.
- [55:27]
Bill Simmons
If Brooklyn called and said, we'll give you the 6 pick and our 2029 first for Mitchell, we'll just take them off your hands, I would do it.
- [55:37]
Zach Lowe
No way.
- [55:38]
Bill Simmons
No way.
- [55:39]
Zach Lowe
For who you're doing that is Cleveland.
- [55:41]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I mean, look, you look, I'm not even blinking.
- [55:45]
Zach Lowe
You like all Those guys at 6, 2029 first. I'm assuming Brooklyn is, I mean, look, all the picked values are going to
- [55:51]
Bill Simmons
change and I save 50 million in all the luxury tax stuff. And do I think Mitchell is going to be on my team two years from now? Is he going to stay? I'm doing that.
- [55:59]
Zach Lowe
Well, okay, so you gave your future, you gave your consiglier self knowledge of Donovan Mitchell's plans that I personally don't have. And he said all the right things about Cleveland. I wanted to stay in Cleveland. He signed extensions there before. But you know, there is an interesting conversation to be had of like, is with all these guys really, like, is the next contract going to be worth it?
- [56:24]
Bill Simmons
I'm resetting. I made a run at it. It didn't happen. I have a chance to get an all NBA guy in this draft. I keep Mobley, I reset, I reset my tax, I lick my wounds and I get ready to make another run at it with a younger team is where I would land.
- [56:40]
Zach Lowe
I would love to still have Darius Garland in that scenario, but alas, I do.
- [56:45]
Bill Simmons
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- [57:48]
Zach Lowe
Oh boy.
- [57:50]
Bill Simmons
Yes.
- [57:51]
Sean Fennessy
What's up?
- [57:52]
Bill Simmons
So I owed Sean Fennessy this appearance because we've known each other for 14 years. I've made a hundred million Knicks jokes. He's also come on my pod many times after sad Knicks events. I feel like almost exclusively, almost every time you've come on, something terrible has happened with the Knicks. They've had a bad loss, they've done a dumb trade. Now everything's flipped so you have the floor. Just tell us how it feels.
- [58:20]
Sean Fennessy
Not today, Bill. It's Memorial Day weekend. I've been drinking. I'm feeling really good right now. Man, we do it.
- [58:26]
Zach Lowe
I feel like I want to go get a glass of wine and come back and just really save, really savor this.
- [58:31]
Sean Fennessy
Well, you know, it's funny, the last time I was on was the last bad moment I've had as a fan of this team. It's amazing. I came on after what was the game three of that Hawks series and I we could not have been more low. Two brutal one point losses and look at us now, we're flying. Bill.
- [58:50]
Bill Simmons
10 in a row. Some interesting stats. Zach, with this 10 in a row and the point differential and stuff about teams like if they pull off the sweep tomorrow of teams that have only lost twice heading into a finals, some pretty interesting teams on the list. I to me, I thought whoever won this west series was winning the title. And now you see the attrition on both sides in this west series. I don't even know who's going to be playing next week. Whereas the Knicks are going to be nice and rested and it's just feeling pretty magical. I don't know. Zach, where's your head at with this Knicks thing? You talked about a little last night.
- [59:28]
Zach Lowe
I said it after the Philly series. They can win the championship. You know, I think the spurs is a coin flip. I think full strength Thunder is, I think I said like 25, 30% chance the Knicks could win. Obviously the Thunder aren't at full strength. I think this is a legitimately, really good team that has found whatever they needed to find and are in this zone now that I don't think they're coming out of it. I don't think there's a crisis around the corner where all of a sudden they lose their rhythm or, you know, Towns all of a sudden wants more shots or whatever it is that would disrupt their rhythm. I don't, I don't think that's coming. I think this is the team and this is the level of play we're going to see going forward. And I think they're just a strange, they're a strange team. Like Brunson is a strange guy to game plan for towns at the 5 is is a really interesting tough look to deal with. And when they put sham it in, it's really tough to deal with. They're just, they're an unusual team that plays at an unusual cadence and I think they're going to sustain this level of play. I think they can win. I said after the Philly series, they can win. This is not, this is not, you know, I was at game one Knicks Cavs and it was the day after game one Spurs Thunder and there was like some snickering going around about from some of the people, you know, some of the league figures, agents, et cetera, in attendance, not people with the teams saying, yeah, that was a nice win by the Knicks. We had a nice comeback, but like the real finals is happening over there. And I was like, I don't think that's true. I just don't think that's true anymore. I think they can win.
- [60:56]
Bill Simmons
Sean's head's going to explode.
- [60:57]
Sean Fennessy
I, I, I've been turning this over in my head obviously a lot. And I was just in Europe for 10 days and like watching games at 2 o' clock in the morning and trying to wrap my head around what was really going on here. And I was afraid to come United States, to be totally honest. I was nervous that if I came back things would go awry. And then I just watched yesterday's game in normal Pacific time and everything again, just, they just seemed different. And I remember watching them in February and Bill, we probably were texting about it back then when they just seemed not together. It was unclear what Towns role really was on the team. He was doing the same dumb defensive lapses and stupid fouling that he's been doing for the first decade of his career. And things came together near the end of the season. They started playing better in the last 10 or 15 games. Of the year. They did win the NBA Cup. It's not like they did win 50 games again, you know, it's not like they weren't consistently good this year. But, you know, I think also some things broke right for them in the playoffs. I think it's nice that the Celtics had to play an incredibly inspired Sixers team who were desperate to beat the Celtics. The Pistons, I think, were paper tiger all season, but they also did not particularly have answers for the two teams that they played. And I got to give it up to Mike Brown, man. I don't know how much you guys have been talking about it, but he's done stuff with this team that Tibbs was not doing. And it was controversial, especially in New York, whether or not Tibbs should have been fired. And it's a huge freaking relief to me that he was. Even though I think he's responsible for rebuilding this franchise in a lot of ways. Because Mike Brown is flexible, man, and he plays the bench, and the bench has been a huge part of this run. The fact that they're so deep. I remember I was talking to CR before the Sixers series and he was like, well, you guys aren't deep. And I was like, that's wrong. Like this. This team routinely plays eight guys, sometimes nine guys in playoff games. And look, I don't know if you guys have been watching Landry Shamit for the last three weeks, but he looks like an elite bench player in the NBA. It's been amazing.
- [62:54]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, Kyrie completely quit on him. And when he was on Brooklyn, I remember feeling like he was on his way out of the league. I was looking. So this has been a 10 game odyssey to get to the point they got to yesterday. I was so impressed by how they played yesterday. And you look at the box score and it's like if you were just drawing on a map what the ultimate Knicks box score would look like. The Brunson had 30, OG Bridges had 23 and 21. Bridges was 11 for 15. And you felt him the whole game, right? He was just. He was either running the floor or he was running in little open spaces in the half court. He was just. You felt him. Whereas like most of the season, it felt like he was just in the corner with his hand up or not doing anything. Towns was 13, 8 and 7 with zero turnovers. Hart was 12, 9 and 5 with four steals. And Shamon had 14 off the bench. They were 11 for 28 for threes. They shot 55% and they had actual ball movement. He's Looking at it, it's like this. These six guys make sense together. And then you throw in McBride and Mitch, now you have eight. But it was watching initially, I was like. It felt a little 2004 range pistons to me, which is interesting because I think that was the model for how they built this team. It was Leon Rose and Worldwide. Wes. Wes was a huge Pistons guy. He was a Detroit guy. And that model of just bringing in competitive veterans, guys hitting the right points of their careers, guys are going to sacrifice. And you go through the moves they made, like the Pistons, they had Ben Wallace. They signed Billups and traded for Hamilton in the same summer they drafted Tayshon. But then the big move was they fired Rick Carlisle and hired Larry Brown. It's basically what the Knicks did with Tibbs, right? And then the Rasheed Wallace deadline trade was the other one. The Knicks, they had some luck with Dallas, fucking up the Brunson thing, right? That was it. Four for 55, Zach, for Brunson. Dallas could have locked them down.
- [64:52]
Zach Lowe
There's a whole. I don't think we have time to dig into the whole Jalen Brunson, who said what? When? What was offered when. Why wasn't it offered when?
- [65:01]
Bill Simmons
Yes, there were just that Dallas lost him.
- [65:03]
Zach Lowe
Yes, there. There was a time where they could have locked him down for that. And if they had been a little more proactive, I think they probably could have.
- [65:09]
Bill Simmons
So they signed Hartenstein, who was like a stopgap. But the other big lucky break for them was the Mitchell Utah trade, which I forgot the details. Do you remember what the holdup was on that trade, Sean?
- [65:20]
Sean Fennessy
No, what was the holdup?
- [65:22]
Bill Simmons
The Jazz really wanted Grimes in the trade and the Knicks wanted Quickley in the trade. And it became like, well, it's either three unprotected first or two firsts and are protected, depending on who is in it. And then they said fuck you and went and took the Cleveland trade. Zach, if they have Mitchell and Brunson, does that team make sense to you? Plus, you don't have all the extra picks to trade for Bridges.
- [65:45]
Zach Lowe
I was also going back and rereading the Donovan Mitchell trade stuff for different reasons. But I remember thinking at the time, and Ian Begley was, is and was the most plugged in Knicks guy at the time. And he had a lot of the details about, well, this offer was made here at this timeline and was there a pick here? And it's just like. It just made me think, did the Knicks really want to do this? Like they want to do it on
- [66:13]
Bill Simmons
Their terms almost versus actually wanting to
- [66:15]
Zach Lowe
do it because they, they knew. The question you just asked me about, like, these two guards, small score firsts, like, is this actually going to work? And if we use all these assets here, what do we have left for stuff down the line? I, I, look, I'm, I'm sure there was part of their front office that really wanted to do it, and there was debate internally about this pick, that pick. But the bottom line is they did not go as all in as they needed to go all in. And I think it unquestionably saved them. It unquestionably not taken for them. Are. Are that are embiid. And obviously Giannis is the one that half. To Sean's point, halfway through the season, all the discourse was, well, they blew with McKilbridge. They don't have picks for Giannis. They're hopeless. And, you know, they're just kind of stuck in a. I was re listening to the live show I did in Brooklyn because I felt at the time, it was mid March, and I felt like the whole show was me giving Knicks fans a pep talk. Like, no, you guys are. You guys are third in offense, six in defense. Yeah, I know it's been a little rocky, but, like, who, who's beating you in the East? And because it felt like Knicks fans needed a pep talk, I was like, I don't.
- [67:22]
Bill Simmons
Sean needed one, I could tell you that much.
- [67:25]
Sean Fennessy
I didn't have huge expectations for the playoffs. I thought they should definitely beat the Hawks. And then after that, I thought it was a crapshoot because I thought any, any of those top five teams, a lot of things also, like the Magic, not having to deal with the Magic and then the Magic kind of falling apart was another thing that went their way. There were a million things that went their way to the point about Donovan Mitchell. If they had acquired him and they tried to pair them together, I think it might have been a somewhat similar situation that Brunson had to contend with through the first four seasons of his professional career, essentially playing behind Luka. And so you could say the Mavs mismanaged that scenario, or maybe there was nothing they really could have done by just having a superstar backup point guard behind the single best backcourt player in the sport. But you just can't under, like, overstate who and what Brunson is. There's just. There has never been a New York Knick like him. There are very few players in the NBA like him. I think, like, maybe now, finally, NBA fans who, like, even if they Deep down, hate the Knicks. Like, you can't watch him for nine consecutive fourth quarters and consistently watch him just take over games and be unguardable. I mean, his shot making. He's been doing this since he came to the Knicks. This is not new. It's like. It's the supporting cast that you just described, Bill. It's those guys, those pivotal moves that they've made. Acquiring OG acquiring Mikhail, you know, building up Robinson so that he could play 65 games in a season, acquiring Kat. All of that stuff has changed. Brunson's been basically the same guy who scores 27 points a game, who is fearless down the stretch, who always puts the team on his shoulders. And when the team isn't going well, we can point to him and say, oh, well, you know, it's ISO ball and it's all Brunson, and he's taking nine of 13 shots in the fourth quarter. But when they're going good and when the supporting cast looks good, that works. And it's going to. It has been working throughout this playoffs. And I genuinely, you know, you can talk about, like, Walt Clyde Frazier, you know, like, there's Earl Monroe. It's a very short list of guys that he is now getting into the conversation with after just five seasons. And I don't know, it's making my head spin. I just. When we picked him up, I was. I was not against the move at all. It was obviously a very savvy contract, but never in my wildest dreams did I ever think he would become this person to the franchise.
- [69:42]
Bill Simmons
We all like Brunson. I think that Knicks felt like he could be this guy. I do think Liana west did feel that way. I thought that was crazy. I clearly thought he. I might have even said it in the pods, like, this guy could be one of the best three guys on a final 14. Like, there's no question. I didn't think he could be what he became. You're talking about, like, for an entire generation of Knicks fans. Well, multiple generations. But if you're talking about, like 30 and under Knicks fans, like, they're. This is like their David Ortiz, basically. If they win the title, he becomes David Ortiz. One of the things about how they put the team together, they were cutthroat. A couple times. The town's trade was cutthroat. Like that. Like, Randall was like their guy. Like, they brought him in, they gave him a big extension. They went and signed DeFincenzo. They traded, I think. Would they trade Toppin to have the deepcenzo money, Villanova guy. This is our crew now. And then they had a chance to get towns and they just like slit their throats. Basically went got towns that was cutthroat and then the. The Tib straight. The Tibbs firing kind of have to do that sometimes. You know, there's a difference between being desperate and cutthroat. Those were two moves that were probably the right moves, but it's still like, I don't know if all teams make those moves, Zach. No, it's like what we were talking about earlier, where if OKC is like, check can't defend Wemby, we're trading him and it's just like we're cutting his throat. Some teams won't do it.
- [71:11]
Zach Lowe
No, the towns one was. Was a risk and it's one that has. Has gone up and down over like halfway through the season. It looked like did Minnesota like kind of win this trade? Cats all over the place and like, Randall's playing really well and DiVincenzo is essential. And now it's like swung totally the other way. But it was a bet on. It was a ceiling bet. It was a. We need to take some risk of absorbing this contract because if it works, our ceiling goes up a level that Randall and DiVincenzo just can't.
- [71:41]
Bill Simmons
They need a center can't take.
- [71:42]
Zach Lowe
You needed a center and you need a five who can shoot. And yeah, I mean, they've been an OBI was the guy they clearly just targeted. And Brunson, I remember I was with you guys. I mean, I remember vividly doing on my old podcast, like, that deal was slammed, like, really unpopular contract in a lot of corners. And I remember saying, I don't. I don't love it, but it's like a BB plus. Like, Jalen Brunson's a really good player and like, it's a lot at that time, but, like, it's a BB plus contract. Obviously, in retrospect, it was an A plus plus plus.
- [72:13]
Sean Fennessy
What was it? Was it four for 100?
- [72:15]
Bill Simmons
What was it a little more for 106?
- [72:17]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah, 106.
- [72:18]
Bill Simmons
I was on the bullish side for it, but I also was like, yeah, it's guys career average is 11 points a game. You know, it's definitely on the higher end.
- [72:28]
Zach Lowe
I do think we're all overlooking just a huge story here and a huge fly in the ointment.
- [72:35]
Bill Simmons
Chalamet.
- [72:36]
Zach Lowe
No, even. Even more dire than the celebrity fandom.
- [72:41]
Bill Simmons
The return of Chalamet to. To being. Being on TV and stuff, which my
- [72:46]
Zach Lowe
dad, by the way, hates. He's like, I don't understand. Do they pay for their tickets? Why do all these rich people get free stuff? I don't like it. Even more dire. And, Sean, I think you need to be worried. I think you need to be on higher alert.
- [72:56]
Bill Simmons
Oh, no.
- [72:57]
Zach Lowe
I don't know if you know this, but the Cavs have won the shot quality battle through three games in this series. I think you guys are actually on the ropes here. I think if you look at the track, look at the tracking data, it's neck and neck, but the Cavs have a slight edge in shock quality. And let me tell you, I think the league is going to retroactively go back and look at the shot quality and flip the results of these games. And you might be down 2:1 tomorrow morning. I wouldn't get too excited about the finals just yet. Or the Cats get one.
- [73:25]
Bill Simmons
It's a deceiving, deceiving three out. Sean, don't, don't get comfy.
- [73:30]
Sean Fennessy
I did see that interview with Kenny Atkinson today, which was very amusing. Let's just say it's been passed around amongst Knicks fans. Listen, I.
- [73:39]
Zach Lowe
Are you scared, Sean? Are you scared of what the next four games portend because of this?
- [73:43]
Sean Fennessy
I don't, what I don't want is to say something stupid. And then all of a sudden, this series is 3:3, and I'm getting clipped by, like, Cavs busting genius, you know, on x.com I, I, I'm very excited about how well they've played. And you know what? As a, as a dork who looks at exit velo and hard hit rate and baseball like, that's not good, I do, I do, like, trick myself into thinking that that shit matters. But, like, look, the Cavs just haven't been able to hit threes in this series. But also, the Knicks play great defense, so both things can be true.
- [74:15]
Zach Lowe
Look, if you played those games 150,000 times, it might be a different result. Unfortunately, Sean, this is the result that actually matters. And it's 3 0.
- [74:23]
Sean Fennessy
And the fact is, is that Timothee Chalamet was courtside for two of those games. So maybe he's in Donovan Mitchell's head. Have we considered that? Maybe he's in James Harden's head?
- [74:32]
Bill Simmons
Very possible. Here's the other thing. Game 4 is already over because there was a play at the end of game three that made me convinced the Knicks are going to sweep them. That Jalen Brunson hesitation layup when all 5 Cavs just decided they weren't gonna move anymore. That's the kind of thing that happens when you're going home in two days. I don't think you come back from that.
- [74:52]
Sean Fennessy
They kind of quit in the fourth quarter. They kind of quit.
- [74:54]
Bill Simmons
It was a quitting is what was going on.
- [74:56]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah.
- [74:57]
Bill Simmons
And I think the Knicks can smell it. And the Knicks and Sean went. This is the prologue of my book, the Secret the Knicks. Part of the problem with them during the season is everybody was having to sacrifice stuff and there were all these different times when people didn't seem that happy about the sacrificing. Those guys are all locked in now. I don't, I don't know how it happened over these last 10 games, but it happened. And that's the great thing about sports when you watch it happen in real time.
- [75:21]
Sean Fennessy
I think obviously OG was unstoppable until he got injured. But the secret is what you already talked about, which is that bridges shooting 75% from the field and being back to that mid range guy and also being really comfortable as basically the second option offensively has just totally transformed the offense for them. The early story was Kat being point cat, but that has kind of moved out recently. And Bridges just having much more usage in the offense makes them way more dynamic and scary. I mean, they're going to match up totally differently though, with either of the two teams in the west, assuming they go forward. It's going to be a different looking offense and it's going to be harder, I think, for Brunson to get some of those baskets that he's been getting in the last two series. But I have to enjoy this. I mean, it's 53 years since the Knicks have won a title. It's 27 years since they've been in the NBA Finals. It's 40 years since a team that I root for of the three major sports has won a title. 40 years like this is very rare. And it's extremely rare to watch a team that I care about just motherfuck teams. I mean, it's just amazing how they're just dominating for the last three weeks. And so I'm such an embittered and cynical sports fan. Like, I really just gotta look myself in the mirror and be like, have some gratitude, you asshole, because this is super special.
- [76:37]
Bill Simmons
This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable Internet means everything for your business and even this podcast. That's why I trust Spectrum business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with Internet, advanced Wi, Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24. Seven US based support millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business, so visit spectrum.combusiness to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to you by Ferrero. The biggest global soccer event is on the horizon and Ferrero is making it easy to go all in. Grab two of your favorite chocolatey treats. Enter for a chance to win a range of prizes. Maybe it's Butterfinger the one of a kind Crispity Crunchity Peanut Buttery bar or a Crunch Bar Real Milk chocolate with crisp rice for Matchtime Fun. I love those. Go all in. Buy any two Ferrero brands and you can win $1,000,000. Official rules apply. Learn more at goallin and win.com special I got this email from Yuval and Israel. I'll read it to you. I remember The Mavs were 2:2 in the first round against the Brandon Roy Blazers and people were saying Dirk is choking again. That was before the 2011 Mavs had one of the most beloved championship runs ever. Something clicked. They went on this crazy one, went 101 the rest of the way. In the west, almost every Mavs player at a moment. Berea, Chandler, Peja, even Deshaun Stevenson. They beat the villains of the league, the Heat. Without home court, the Knicks have a chance to do something similar if they take out okc. If they actually win it, will this championship be as universally beloved as the 2011 Mavs run? This is an interesting one because it's a New York team, right? Dallas, Everybody loved Dirk, including Zach Lowe. Everybody had kind of given up on him having a moment like that and then he just fucking went Clint Eastwood on the 2011 playoffs and series by series just took people out and then they took out this Heat team that everybody was annoyed by. Zach, do you see the parallels? If it was OKC during this whole flop thing, at this moment they're having the back to back and then this Knicks team that comes out of nowhere. Do you think it would be as beloved as that Mavs title?
- [78:59]
Zach Lowe
Well, it's interesting you asked that because I saw Ethan Strauss write this column this week about basically why is this not a bigger story that the team in the biggest city and the biggest market is doing this? And I'm like, maybe I just live in the wrong place. Cause it's like the defining story of my life. It's a massive story 24 hours a day. So I, I think it could be. I mean they're like, the Knicks don't have a Dirk who's like been just beaten down and been close to the mountaintop and shoved off and is, like, entering the back nine of his career, and this might be his last chance. And that was also a collection of vets.
- [79:35]
Bill Simmons
But Brunson is as, like, the small guy, underdog, and small guys aren't supposed to win titles, kind of.
- [79:41]
Zach Lowe
No, I'm just giving you the. I'm giving you the counters before I hammer it. And the other counter is like, there are just some. Some people who don't like New York City and don't like New York and it's too big and all the famous people. I think it would be, if not as universally beloved, almost so. And like, such a rapturous moment around the league. Because it is New York, because it is the Knicks. And it may depend a little bit on who they play in the Finals, because the Thunder have a whiff of a different kind of villainousness to them, at least in the way they're perceived around the league. Not the same as that Miami team. But, yeah, there are just some parts of the country, fans in parts of the country who hate New York, and they're like, oh, boy, the big bad Knicks. And we have to listen to everyone talk about New York, and the Yankees will probably win the World Series, and we'll do it all again.
- [80:29]
Bill Simmons
Well, that would be terrible.
- [80:30]
Zach Lowe
But I. But I think. I think the Knicks are their own unique thing in New York City because of the sport. It's the city's game. They're the city's team. And it's been so goddamn long that I think it would be as rapturous as the Mavs. 1.
- [80:44]
Sean Fennessy
I think there's one other component to this, too, which is if this had happened last season, it might have felt a little bit different because it would have felt like they were vanquishing teams that they had not beaten before. So obviously, that Boston series. Sorry, Bill. Was, like, euphoric for Knicks fans because we were underdogs in that series for real, and that was a really triumphant series win. And then they got their hearts ripped out in game one of the Pacer series, and that series was effectively over. And obviously, the Pacers have given the Knicks fits over the years in the playoffs. And so if they had gone to the finals after that run, it would have felt different than this, where they're basically dispatching a bunch of teams that they've already beaten before. The Knicks have, three years ago beat the Cavs in the playoffs. The Knicks two years ago beat the Sixers in the playoffs. Both of those teams were seeded lower than the Knicks are. It doesn't feel as triumphant and stunning a run to the Finals. And so maybe that's part of the reason why it's not getting these incredible national headlines. Also, at the very beginning of this season, I think most pundits felt like the Knicks were the most talented team in the conference and probably should be, at least in the Eastern Conference Finals. In fact, the Knicks owner basically set a mandate for Mike Brown and the team that they had to make the Finals, that the expectation was the NBA Finals. So it's not preordained, per se, but this has just been Talked about for 16 months as a possibility, so it doesn't feel as stunningly special. And also, I think Zach's right that New York teams are just hated. Like, the Knicks are kind of a fumbling franchise over the last half century, but they're just not beloved. And whatever success they have had, especially in the 90s, was for a kind of, like, brute force, unlikable style of play. And so I think for older fans, that's also burned into their brains is like, this isn't a team that. I love watching. This team, though, this season. I mean, this playoffs, they've been a lot of fun to watch. I think offensively, they're pretty exciting.
- [82:38]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. So DOLAN in the 2000s, a 10 out of 10 train wreck. And then the 2010s, a 10 out of 10train wreck. That's 20 years, 1/5 of a century. A complete train wreck as an owner. Right before COVID All Star Weekend, Chicago, I think Zach Lowe was there. No, I skipped. You skipped it?
- [83:00]
Zach Lowe
I skipped it because I didn't want to get Covid.
- [83:03]
Bill Simmons
Somehow. I went. I went to Sundance and All Star Weekend and the Oscars and went over three in Covid. Sean went one for one.
- [83:10]
Sean Fennessy
I went to Sundance and have never been more sick in my life. So pleased to have been patient zero.
- [83:15]
Zach Lowe
I got it at the Sloan Conference two weeks later. So it's not like my discipline sustained.
- [83:21]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. So they hire Leon and Wes basically three weeks before COVID and then post Covid, they've just turned into a completely different franchise. And Dolan's been a good owner. Like, he's. He's let those guys do their thing. Supposedly he was the one that's like, we have to fire Tibbs. You guys are being too loyal to him. He's not good enough. Get rid of this guy. He's paid for a lot of money. Like, it's been impressive. And you think with that, with the sphere, which has been like, one of the most successful entertainment things that has launched probably this century. Dolan's back, man. You got to hand it to him. I made a lot of jokes about him. I made a lot of jokes with my column and on the pod that. You got to hand it to the dude, man. He's done a good job.
- [84:06]
Sean Fennessy
When was he originally good at? Dolan's here.
- [84:08]
Bill Simmons
Dolan's here.
- [84:11]
Zach Lowe
I really thought for a second that you were going to draw some connection from COVID to Dolan arriving before and after. I thought there was going to be some sort of science commentary that was going to frighten me. My screen was just going to go black, like the connection was going to get lost.
- [84:29]
Bill Simmons
Well, as Sean knows, I don't really remember anything from 2020 or 2021, and there's a chance all of us are dead right now, and this isn't actually happening with the Knicks. It's possible.
- [84:39]
Sean Fennessy
I love the idea of this being your projection in your post Covid dream state. Yeah, that's really exciting.
- [84:45]
Bill Simmons
James Dolan became a good owner, but you got to hand it to a man. He's doing a good job. The New York thing's interesting because this is such a beloved team. Like, if you just like basketball, I just really respect how they play. I think Brunson is just one of the most admirable guys we have in the league. But it is a New York team, and there are a ton of New York fans. And I don't need to tell you, Sean, when it's going well for New York fans, they have a way of letting everybody know about that. So I'll be interested to see how everybody handles this over the next four weeks.
- [85:18]
Sean Fennessy
I'll just say this is the first public comments I'm making since this win streak started. I have been trying to keep my mouth shut throughout this.
- [85:25]
Bill Simmons
It's a great way to do it.
- [85:27]
Sean Fennessy
I don't want to jinx it. And I'm also super grateful, however, like, give it. Like, we deserve this. Come on, 53 years.
- [85:35]
Bill Simmons
You deserve it. Just for the last 20.
- [85:37]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah, it was. The 2000s were fucking tough, man. That was a really hard time because in addition to being inept on the court, they were entrenched in controversy and scandal nonstop. I mean, it was a very ugly time to be a fan of that team. So this just feels different. And I said this to you the last year or so, Bill, but they're just normal now. They just win, like, 52 games every year. They have one or two players who are in the conversation for all NBA. They're just like a legitimately good NBA franchise. The other thing I'll note is that Leon Rose does not speak to the press ever.
- [86:14]
Zach Lowe
Ever.
- [86:15]
Sean Fennessy
And that is also so strange. And so we don't even really know very much about the architect of this team through this six year period. We just know that they're making the right moves. And I would say six of the eight big moves that they've made since this new administration came in. When they happened, I was like, that's not a good idea. It was like my old Knicks reflexes kicked in where I was like trading Randall and DiVincenzo. I don't get that. I hope OG is a good deal, but he's really injury prone, getting older in that deal. That doesn't make sense. Oh, we missed out on Katie and Kyrie and we backfilled with Julius Randle as a free agent. Oh, four years for Brunson. And that this is at the expense of getting Donovan Mitchell like all of those times because Knicks fans are so beat up. You could have been like, well, we're going to get the short end of the stick on this one. And every single one worked out. Even Bridges, which that trade was, was, was pilloried as recently as April.
- [87:13]
Bill Simmons
How about a month ago?
- [87:14]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, like it was like way too many picks. And now all of a sudden, two playoffs in a row, we're like, nope, he's essential. He might even be the second best player on the team. And that's astonishing. That's cra. Like the fact that all those moves that those guys made worked out and they never once got in front of the public and were like, well, we did this, so trust us, they don't say anything. It's crazy.
- [87:33]
Bill Simmons
Well, one of the reasons you know, they're good is besides Brunson, the next best three guys in the team have all had moments when they've seen like, they're clearly the second best guy in the team. And that's when you know you have a good team. But there, Zach, I remember doing this in the 2024 finals with Celtics, Dallas when Celtics were favored, but maybe not as much as they should have been favored considering the disparity, the disparity with the records and stuff. And at some point it just became math. It's like the Celtics have been this team for eight months. This is kind of who they are. You look at the advanced stats for the playoffs and the Knicks have. They're plus 18.5 for 13 playoff games. That's like a small sample size. It's three different series and it includes them being down 2:1 in the first one. But they have the second best defensive rating, they have the best offensive rating and they have the point differential. They have all this mass stuff in their place. We've always learned that should be a bigger factor when you're trying to figure out what's going to happen than we give it credit for. So I assume if they blow out the Cavs tomorrow or to even just win, those numbers will still be pretty good. Do you pay attention to that though, Zach? Those, those post season advanced metric shit?
- [88:51]
Zach Lowe
Sure. I mean, again, it's a small sample and it's so opponent specific that you know, it can be a little. You have to be careful. But I mean, when you are, I mean, I don't even care what the numbers are when you're like, I haven't even looked. When you're this dominant and you're winning by this many points every single game. Like I've seen some people. Well, who have they played? They played the Hawks who fattened up against all these lottery teams are pretty good, but didn't. Didn't hear a lot about that when it was 2:1 Hawks. Oh, they played the Sixers, who, you know, they're injury prone and Joel couldn't sustain. By the way. I do have to give you this. As a Celtics person. You got the, like the weak that the Sixers became, the full fledged Sixers was against you similarly five seasons ago. You got like the week that the hardened Kyrie Durant Nets became the full fledged Durant Nets, that also against you guys.
- [89:39]
Bill Simmons
It's true.
- [89:40]
Zach Lowe
But like, I don't want to hear about any of this because if you beat three playoff teams by this much this many times, it says something about the group that you're in. And oh, by the way, they were third in offense and seventh in defense in the regular season and seventh in defense with this roster is quite an accomplishment. Like it was sitting there. They were, they were. Now what they've done in the playoffs is a completely different thing, but they're just a really good team.
- [90:04]
Bill Simmons
They caught a couple, couple small breaks, but every team gets breaks every year. Tatum and Halliburton getting hurt, Giannis and Bead breaking down. But I. And that's happened. That's. That's wear and tear was scheduled year after year. The. The one real break I thought they caught was Detroit kind of choking at the Detroit deadline, not doing anything. Cause Detroit was the One team that felt like they like going toe to toe with the Knicks.
- [90:27]
Sean Fennessy
They really had their number during the
- [90:28]
Bill Simmons
regular season and you know, why didn't they get the extra guy? And if I'm in a trade fan, I'm going crazy right now that we're not in the eastern finals.
- [90:36]
Zach Lowe
See, I, I get it. 3. Oh, Detroit. In the regular season, I was, I would have picked the Knicks in six match.
- [90:46]
Bill Simmons
I would have picked the next two
- [90:48]
Zach Lowe
without even thinking that hard about it. And I would not have thrown away the regular season stuff, but I just would not have read too much into it. And I think the Knicks were just qualitatively a better team than Detroit because
- [90:59]
Bill Simmons
I've seen Kawhi Leonard was on the Pistons.
- [91:01]
Zach Lowe
Well, okay. I mean I've seen a lot of like, oh, Detroit.
- [91:04]
Bill Simmons
I don't know where they would have
- [91:05]
Zach Lowe
got the regular season and boy, they blew it against Cleveland. I just like, I didn't like the way they were playing in the playoffs. I like the way the Knicks are playing in the playoffs. I don't read too much into those games.
- [91:14]
Bill Simmons
I guess you can't get too comfortable because analytically you're losing two to one.
- [91:20]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah, that's going to be. Feel really bad when they sweep and they've lost. They've lost three games to one.
- [91:25]
Zach Lowe
Analytically, I don't know how you're going to sleep tonight, man.
- [91:28]
Bill Simmons
This like you don't understand the month Sean's had. He, he goes to Cannes for the first time ever. He's there for like a week and a half. As that's happening, the Knicks go on the fucking all time heater. It's like Worm at the Chesterfield just whipping the Russians for 24 straight hours.
- [91:47]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah, but they're not cheating. That's the thing you're remembering. No mechanic work, no dealing from the bottom of the deck.
- [91:52]
Zach Lowe
I wish, I wish the Mets would cheat. By the way, Sean, as long as you're here, I'm in for anything. Don't get me started out in the back, whatever you got to do because I, you know, I will burn the
- [92:02]
Sean Fennessy
franchise to the ground. Whatever the Knicks are doing. The Mets need to drink some of that juice because what the fuck, dude? Like, absolutely.
- [92:08]
Bill Simmons
I'm not listening to you guys complain about baseball when my, my owner has just thrown away baseball in Boston.
- [92:14]
Zach Lowe
All right, fair.
- [92:15]
Bill Simmons
We, we traded a possible Cy Young guy this year for a guy who's sitting 161.
- [92:20]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah, but he got you like three titles.
- [92:22]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, and then he's like, he's four. Four. And then he's like, you guys should be more appreciative. I should be able to do what I want.
- [92:29]
Sean Fennessy
I mean, he's right.
- [92:31]
Bill Simmons
I don't. None of us feel that way. Just sell the team.
- [92:34]
Sean Fennessy
The Mets are way more embarrassing. First of all, they haven't won in 40 years. Second of all, they spend $400 million on their payroll and they have the worst offense in the sport. I want to jump off a building thinking about them. It's insane, sane. Thank God for the Knicks. Thank God.
- [92:48]
Bill Simmons
Like, if you spent money like that in basketball, your team would be good. You would just. That would just mean you have really good players in baseball. You can spend money on Behet and then he could just immediately turn into the worst shortstop of the national league.
- [93:01]
Sean Fennessy
He makes $42 million a year.
- [93:03]
Zach Lowe
I'm so sorry I did that. I'm sorry. It's my fault.
- [93:05]
Bill Simmons
Why don't you bring this up, Zach?
- [93:06]
Zach Lowe
This is my fault. You know why I brought it up? You know why I brought it up? Because I spent part of the day with my daughter, who's now a big Mets fan. We went shopping together, and she said, mets playing this afternoon. Let's check the score. And it was the seventh inning. This is where. It's a freaking mall. We're at the Stanford Mall on a Sunday. This is my life.
- [93:26]
Bill Simmons
Be my heyday place.
- [93:28]
Zach Lowe
Checking the Mets score, seventh inning. And I said to her, you'll never guess how many of the Met runs the Mets have in the seventh inning. It's 00. And we drove home. We drove home, listening to the game on the radio. Bottom of the ninth, Marlins are up. We pull into the driveway, guys are on base. We turn on the tv and Airbender gives up a fucking walk off grand slam right in our face. Why? That's why I brought it up. Because I had a day with it.
- [93:54]
Sean Fennessy
I want to hear a little bit more about Bill's heyday place, the Stamford Mall. What went down there?
- [93:59]
Bill Simmons
Here was the highlight. First of all, Stanford Mall was unbelievable. But one summer, Woody Allen was filming scenes from a mall scene from Mall. Yeah, with Bette Midler. And they were just there.
- [94:10]
Sean Fennessy
And they would be directed by Paul Mazurski.
- [94:12]
Bill Simmons
Sometimes they're on the top floor. And it was just such a big deal for the mall.
- [94:17]
Sean Fennessy
Did you approach Woody and say, I love your work, thanks for everything?
- [94:20]
Bill Simmons
They didn't approach Woody. They had a great A and W. They had a good music.
- [94:24]
Zach Lowe
The curly fries at the A and W were. You could do you could do a Sam Goody and AMW are right next to each other on the seventh floor. You could get some CDs and go get some curly fries.
- [94:34]
Bill Simmons
We had a Walden Books. Was just good times. Yeah.
- [94:37]
Sean Fennessy
Just going, you guys are getting into trouble. A couple of scamps hanging out in Stamford Mall.
- [94:42]
Zach Lowe
One of my great cinematic memories. Sean Fantasy of the big picture is waiting in line for two and a half hours for the opening night of 1989's Batman at the Stanford Mall. That's how big that, how is how big that movie was. A bunch of 11 to 12 year old guys. Like we're, we're camping out basically to get into this movie.
- [95:02]
Sean Fennessy
That's beautiful.
- [95:03]
Bill Simmons
I saw a lot of great ones. I don't even know if they have a movie theater there anymore. Is the mall still nice?
- [95:08]
Zach Lowe
It, it still looks the same. A lot of the stores are closed. A lot of them have become arcades basically. And one of the anchor stores, I don't know which I think might be Saks, has become the allegedly the nation's largest pickleball facility.
- [95:26]
Bill Simmons
Oh my God. That's the worst thing I've ever heard. That's like this guy who bought the trailblazers is like the biggest investor in pickleball.
- [95:34]
Zach Lowe
Can I tell you a pickleball story?
- [95:36]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, go ahead.
- [95:37]
Zach Lowe
Game two, Knicks. A team official who should not be named says hi to me, introduces me to a guy who knows Joe House. So hey, I know Joe House.
- [95:47]
Bill Simmons
Always a good starter.
- [95:48]
Zach Lowe
I think his name is Sam Porter and he is the owner or founder or something of the biggest professional pickleball league. And he looked me straight in the eye and he said, I really like what you guys do on the NBA podcasts. You and Bill have great chemistry. I can't listen as much anymore. And I said, why? He's like, I can't take Bill's slander on pickleball. It's just too much. I can't do it. So you've lost a listener because of your anti pickleball take.
- [96:16]
Bill Simmons
I'll be on the right side of history if we lose A couple Listers are on the way. It's fine. Pickleball sucks. What was the best movie you saw
- [96:27]
Sean Fennessy
at Cansha called Club Kid Stars? Jordan Firstman, who is Rachel Sennett's friend from the TV show I Love la. It's his directorial debut. He plays a guy who's a club promoter in New York City who wakes up one day and he's in his 30s and he has no money and no insurance and Nothing to show for it. And 10 year old kid shows up on his front door and is like, you're my dad. And he's like, what the fuck are you talking about? Because Jordan Firstman's character is gay in the film. And it was funny and heartwarming and old fashioned and beautiful. And I was like, this is like a Barry Levinson movie. Or it was kind of like Big Daddy, the Adam Sandler movie. And honestly stole my heart. I had a great time watching it. Didn't expect it. It was great.
- [97:07]
Bill Simmons
So it's like gay Kramer versus Kramer crossed with Big Daddy.
- [97:10]
Sean Fennessy
Exactly. That's exactly what it is.
- [97:12]
Bill Simmons
A good idea.
- [97:13]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah. And it's funny and sweet and excellent.
- [97:17]
Bill Simmons
Zach did Sean's projections newsletter about movies that he launched a couple weeks ago. Get your juices watered to maybe start your own version of an NBA type thing.
- [97:27]
Zach Lowe
I'm a subscriber. It's been an idea I've been kicking around. I'm a little scared I forgot how to do it.
- [97:34]
Sean Fennessy
I will say I was doing a chat on the sub stack and literally someone asked me, I signed up for your thing. I'm really glad you're here, but I really need you to get both Zach and Bill writing again. It's really important to me. And I said, I'm doing my best. So Bill can't just pass the buck to Zach. It goes to you too.
- [97:54]
Bill Simmons
I sent a 180 word text today. I don't know if that's got me going.
- [98:01]
Sean Fennessy
Just what was it about?
- [98:02]
Bill Simmons
Hammering the two fingers, getting going.
- [98:05]
Sean Fennessy
What was it about?
- [98:06]
Bill Simmons
I don't know. It was about graduation plans.
- [98:10]
Sean Fennessy
Oh, okay. Well, that's not exactly like writing about the mba, but it's a start.
- [98:15]
Bill Simmons
I mean, my daughter's been home for the last two weeks and you guys have younger daughters than my daughter. And she's 21 now, and we go out and she can't wait to get carded and order a drink and just let you know what's coming for you guys down the road.
- [98:29]
Sean Fennessy
Feel very far away from that.
- [98:30]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, yeah, they get. They just the. The happiness in their eyes as they're handing their real driver's license to a bartender or waiter. Kind of like the look in your eyes right now, Sean, about the Knicks.
- [98:42]
Sean Fennessy
My version of getting carded with my daughter is when she's like, dad, take out your credit card so you can buy me this.
- [98:48]
Bill Simmons
There it is.
- [98:48]
Sean Fennessy
Which is something I'm becoming more and more familiar with.
- [98:51]
Bill Simmons
All right, you can listen to Sean on the big picture. You can Listen to Zach on the Zach Lowe show, which will be going. You'll potentially be a game five, right. If. If Cleveland somehow comes back and wins one.
- [99:01]
Zach Lowe
Honestly, I just forgot that there could be a game five, to be honest with you. Yes, I would be there if it exists.
- [99:06]
Bill Simmons
I honestly think it's a wrap and I think there's going to be 30 to 40% Knicks fans there tomorrow. Would be my other prediction.
- [99:13]
Sean Fennessy
Can't believe this is happening. This is unbelievable.
- [99:16]
Bill Simmons
Heard there can't get courtsides if you're a Knicks fan. Like, it'll get on the ticket sites. It'll just reject you. If you're not from Cleveland, what is that?
- [99:25]
Sean Fennessy
Like, they'll forcibly remove you from the arena.
- [99:28]
Bill Simmons
They'll just reset your order.
- [99:30]
Zach Lowe
But they make room for celebrities like Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey.
- [99:34]
Bill Simmons
We're. Well, we're going to have some celebs at the game tomorrow, but I don't think there'll be courtside. Sean, good luck. Congratulations. I'm glad things have turned around for you.
- [99:42]
Sean Fennessy
Bill, thanks for inviting me.
- [99:43]
Bill Simmons
Became at the expense of my team. That's fine. We've been friends for a long time.
- [99:47]
Sean Fennessy
Well, I deserve at least one goddamn thing in this life. So thank you.
- [99:51]
Zach Lowe
Yeah.
- [99:51]
Bill Simmons
After the sixth Tom Brady super bowl, you deserve something.
- [99:54]
Sean Fennessy
All right, settle down.
- [99:54]
Bill Simmons
Tom Brady's. That's another thing that's happening for you. Tom Brady's getting super weird. This is almost like another win for you.
- [100:00]
Sean Fennessy
With respect, he's been an absolute weirdo for 20 years.
- [100:06]
Bill Simmons
Zach Lowe, thanks as always. Good to see you. I will see you next Sunday. Thanks to Gehau and Eduardo and Jack Wilson and Chris as well. That's it for us on Netflix. I'll be back on Tuesday. Don't forget tomorrow Animal House on the rewatchable. So thanks, everybody. Must be 21 plus on President. Select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 on President in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-BYRESET. Call 888-797-777 or visit ccpg.orgchinconnecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massach or call 877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPENY in New York. For Louisiana, call 877-770-7867.
- [101:01]
Zach Lowe
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