OKC’s Revenge, NBA Cup Nitpicks, and NFL Season Fun Grades with David Jacoby, Kirk Goldsberry, Kyle Brandt, and Craig Horlbeck

Summary

The Bill Simmons Podcast: Detailed Summary of "OKC’s Revenge, NBA Cup Nitpicks, and NFL Season Fun Grades"

Release Date: December 11, 2024

Hosts and Guests:

• Bill Simmons (Host)
• David Jacoby
• Kirk Goldsberry
• Kyle Brandt
• Craig Horlbeck

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1. NBA Cup Dominance: OKC Thunder's Ascendancy

The episode kicks off with a deep dive into the NBA Cup, focusing primarily on the Oklahoma City Thunder's (OKC) impressive performance in the Western Conference. Bill Simmons sets the stage by highlighting the Thunder's defensive prowess and their emerging status as a top contender.

OKC's Defensive Strength:

• Kirk Goldsberry emphasizes, “[04:30] It’s just, it’s frustrating Luka’s team can't throw basic passes without being harassed. They’re like swarming wasps,” highlighting the Mavericks' (Dallas) struggle against OKC's relentless defense.

• Craig Horlbeck concurs, stating at [04:28] “OKC are the clear favorite now,” noting their superior net and defensive ratings compared to other Western teams.

Comparisons with Dallas Mavericks and Houston Rockets:

• The discussion shifts to OKC's comparison with the Dallas Mavericks, with Bill Simmons expressing skepticism about Mavericks' ability to challenge OKC, despite having star players like Luka Doncic and Kyrie Irving. At [05:13], he remarks, “I still think they’re the number two team in the West,” positioning OKC above Dallas.

• Kurt Goldsberry adds at [08:08], “OKC, Dallas, then Houston,” ranking the top three Western teams and underscoring Houston's potential as a formidable opponent.

Key Players Impacting OKC's Success:

• Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (SGA) is lauded as the differentiator for OKC. Craig Horlbeck notes at [12:13], “SGA is a truly impressive two-way superstar,” asserting his MVP candidacy and pivotal role in both offense and defense.

• Discussions around Luka Doncic’s performance reveal concerns about his inability to speed up, with Kurt Goldsberry commenting at [06:05], “You can’t speed him up,” suggesting defensive strategies that double Doncic early to disrupt his rhythm.

Trade Dynamics and the NBA CBA:

• The conversation delves into the complexities of NBA trades under the new Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA). Bill Simmons expresses frustration at [18:12], “I'm flummoxed by these trade rules,” particularly concerning the difficulty in acquiring star players like Jimmy Butler.

• Kurt Goldsberry explains at [20:02], “Adding Jimmy Butler requires matching salaries and significant assets,” illustrating the stringent conditions hindering major trades.

Potential Rule Changes and Enhancements:

• The panel brainstorms potential enhancements to the NBA Cup, suggesting at [31:26], “They should use it as a testing ground for rule changes,” proposing experiments like modifying the three-point line or experimenting with game-end formats.

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2. NBA Team Dynamics and Player Performances

Houston Rockets' Rebounding and Offensive Strategy:

• Bill Simmons discusses Houston's leading rebounding stats at [11:01], appreciating their dependency on players like Chet Holmgren and the necessity of their rebounding center for playoff success.

• Concerns are raised about Houston's offensive consistency, with Bill Simmons stating at [11:01], “Houston is a last-shot by committee team,” expressing nerves about their playoff performance.

Milwaukee Bucks and Boston Celtics Outlook:

• The episode touches on the Milwaukee Bucks' standing, with Bill Simmons praising Giannis Antetokounmpo’s performance but expressing uncertainty about their elite status [08:55].

• Craig Horlbeck supports the Bucks’ contention status at [10:39], highlighting Giannis as an MVP candidate over other Western players.

Orlando Magic's Defensive Upside:

• Discussions about the Orlando Magic focus on their defensive strategies and player injuries. Bill Simmons ponders potential rewards for Magic team success, suggesting incentives like guaranteeing a playoff spot for NBA Cup winners [31:26].

• Steve Cerruti and other guests analyze Magic’s roster changes and their impact, emphasizing players like Suggs and the importance of team health for their playoff prospects.

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3. NFL Season Fun Grades and Playoff Predictions

Buffalo Bills and Josh Allen’s Ascension:

• The podcast shifts to NFL discussions, centering on the Buffalo Bills' remarkable season and Josh Allen's stellar performance. David Jacoby praises Allen's leadership, stating at [76:48], “He’s unbelievably cool. Superhero, action star.”

• Bill Simmons draws parallels between Allen and legendary quarterbacks, noting Allen’s ability to make pivotal plays as the season progresses [79:17].

Chiefs vs. Bills Dynamics:

• Kyle Brandt and Jacoby debate the Chiefs’ resilience and matchups against the Bills, with Bill expressing caution due to the Chiefs’ defensive inconsistencies [84:17].

• The conversation highlights Chiefs’ coach strategies and key players like Travis Kelce, with Kyle Brandt asserting, “They can block and chase the passer,” yet Bill Simmons remains skeptical about their consistency [84:54].

Jets and Giants Underperformance:

• The struggles of the New York Jets and Giants are dissected, with Jacoby and Kyle Brandt lamenting their poor performances and poor quarterback decisions, likening ongoing losses to a consistent pattern of disappointment [112:38].

• Bill Simmons criticizes the Jets' inability to secure wins despite possessing a capable quarterback, emphasizing the need for strategic improvements [87:37].

Playoff Implications and Fantasy Football Insights:

• The hosts discuss playoff seeds, potential matchups, and fantasy football implications, focusing on quarterbacks' influence on team success. Kyle Brandt emphasizes the importance of dependable quarterbacks for fantasy success [86:15].

• David Jacoby and Bill Simmons share their predictions for playoff contenders, highlighting teams like Pittsburgh Steelers and Tampa Bay Buccaneers as possible strong contenders [85:04].

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4. Player Injuries and Team Health Concerns

Joel Embiid’s Health and Philadelphia 76ers’ Future:

• A significant portion of the discussion revolves around Joel Embiid’s chronic swelling and its impact on the Philadelphia 76ers. Kurt Goldsberry raises concerns at [55:26], “What is going on? Do his teammates like him?” highlighting the lack of communication and Embiid’s declining influence [54:38].

• Craig Horlbeck compares Embiid’s situation to Tim Duncan’s managed career, stressing the necessity for Embiid to adopt a more professional approach to his health [56:26].

Orlando Magic’s Injury Woes:

• The Magic’s injury issues, particularly with players like Suggs and Franz, are analyzed. Bill Simmons points out the challenges these injuries pose for the team’s playoff viability [43:27].

• Steve Cerruti elaborates on the defensive lapses due to injuries, emphasizing the team’s dependence on Suggs as a primary playmaker [46:52].

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5. Draft Strategies and Rookie Performances

Rising Rookies and Draft Picks:

• The panel discusses standout rookies like Jalen Suggs and their impact on their respective teams. Kurt Goldsberry praises Suggs as “one of the best winners in the league” [53:30], while Bill Simmons reflects on his value in fantasy leagues [54:27].

• David Jacoby and Craig Horlbeck share their insights on rookies’ potential, highlighting players like Jared McCain and Castle as future stars [61:35].

Trade Market Constraints:

• The impact of the new CBA on the trade market is critiqued, with Craig Horlbeck noting its restrictive nature and how it hinders teams like OKC from making strategic trades [25:45].

• Discussions also touch on the limitations faced by teams in acquiring top talent, citing the difficulty in trading up for high-caliber players like Jimmy Butler [19:32].

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6. Closing Remarks and Final Grades

As the episode wraps up, the hosts assign grades to the NBA and NFL seasons based on team performances, storylines, and overall excitement.

• David Jacoby rates the season as a B+ for its engaging storylines and competitive games, despite some underperforming teams [115:18].

• Kyle Brandt offers an A-, celebrating the entertaining games and rising stars like Jalen Suggs [116:11].

• Bill Simmons echoes similar sentiments, grading the season around an A-, praising standout performances and entertaining narratives, while noting areas of concern such as Sam Darnold’s inconsistency [116:43].

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Notable Quotes:

• Kirk Goldsberry on OKC's defense:

  “[04:30] It’s just, it’s frustrating Luka’s team can't throw basic passes without being harassed. They’re like swarming wasps.”

• Craig Horlbeck on SGA's impact:

  “[12:13] SGA is a truly impressive two-way superstar.”

• Bill Simmons on Embiid’s situation:

  “I think what's worrying is the chronic swelling... It has a stranglehold over the franchise.”

• David Jacoby on Josh Allen:

  “[76:48] He’s unbelievably cool. Superhero, action star.”

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This episode of The Bill Simmons Podcast provides an in-depth analysis of the NBA Cup, spotlighting the OKC Thunder's defensive superiority and their implications for Western Conference standings. Simultaneously, the discussion transitions to the NFL season, evaluating key teams and players, with a strong focus on the Buffalo Bills and Josh Allen's leadership. The hosts offer critical insights into player injuries, team dynamics, and the evolving landscape of trades under the new NBA CBA. Concluding with grades for the season, the panel underscores the blend of emerging talents and enduring star power shaping both leagues.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

Coming up, NBA Cup, NBA and a lot of NFL Next.

[Jacoby]

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[Bill Simmons]

This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. It's tip off time for NBA cup, so I hope you're all ready and stocked up on Michelob Ultra. Notice how I called it NBA cup and not the NBA Cup. Trying to get that going. We'll see how it goes. I really love how they're getting fans closer to all the action with M Ultra Courtside. It has exclusive content and prizes like courtside seats, a trip to the Paris Global Game or to All Star Weekend and much more. Learn how you can get closer to the action. Visit michelobultra.com Courtside Michelob Ultra Superior Access Courtside 2425 Sweepstakes no purchase necessary. Open to US residents. 21/plus begins on 10124 goes through 7125 Visit michelobocher.com Courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and official rules and void were prohibited. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network where I put up a new rewatchables. On Monday night we did Disclosure, which is now one of the strangest movies of the 1990s. It's now kind of a comedy, as weird as that sounds. Me Van Latham Big wise, we broke it all down and you can watch it as well on The Ringer Movies YouTube channel. Speaking of YouTube channels, we launched our Ringer TV channel that has the prestige TV podcast to watch. We're going to do some fun shorter videos on there and a lot of the archives we have from the TV episodes we've done. So go check that out and subscribe. We're going to be experimenting a lot more with video podcasts on all the Spotify feeds too for prestige and for the Watch and for my podcast and or the Rewatchable. So stay tuned if you like listening to podcasts on Spotify. You'll be able to watch the videos as well as we keep going heading to the end of 2024 into 2025 coming up. We waited for these two NBA cup games to end on Tuesday night because especially okc Dallas had to see what was going on there, wanted to break it down. So I reserved. Almost like you could reserve an uber black car or something. I reserved Dave Jacoby and Kurt Goldsberry to be on call after the NBA Cup. So they're going to join me. And then Craig Horbeck and Kyle Branton and I, Kyle and I did a rewatchables that we recorded for later this month and then I made him stick around yesterday. And me and Craig and Kyle just talked about NFL and it went a whole bunch of directions. I had a great time. So this is a three man podcast all the way through with two different three man teams. So next, first our friends from Projet. All right, we're taping this. It is almost 9:00 Pacific Time. Dave Jacoby stayed up late on the east coast. Kurt Goldsberry, sloppy seconds. We're getting you today because you were doing some alt casting. Hopefully you have enough energy, momentum back. Guys, I'm going to start here. OKC beats Dallas. Jacoby, is OKC like a borderline lock for you in the west or is there somebody else you're afraid of? Because the more I watch them, the more I just wonder who beats them in the West.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

It's the defense. It's just, it's. I, it's, it's on a different level than every other team. I don't want to play against this team. You can just see the frustration on the body language of the Mavs. They can't throw basic passes without being harassed. Like you remember that like lively rebound he got and the cruiser just knocked it out of bounds just like. What are you. It's just annoying. They're just swarming wasps. And it's so frustrating. Cause I was rooting for the Mavs that wanted to close game and it's just impossible to do anything against them. It's awful.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you think, Goldsberry?

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah, they're the clear favorite now. And I know Dallas is gonna sit here and say, oh, we didn't have PJ Washington and we beat him last year and this and fine, they should be confident. But from what I'm seeing, Bill, their net rating, their defensive rating like Jacoby just said. And then the eye test. Oh my God. Yeah, Luca threw a lob. I think it was to lively near the end of the game that he's thrown 100 times. And all of a sudden there was two Thunder guys and they were playing small and they intercepted it. I think they had 12 steals, 31 points off turnovers, but more importantly, they just frustrate the hell out of everybody. And I feel like they're so far and away better than anything else I'm seeing in the west through the first quarter of the season that, yeah, I'm going to say they're the favorite to come out of the Western Conference.

[Bill Simmons]

Fanduel agrees with you, but the odds for the OKC Thunder in the West, I thought they'd be a minus, but they're plus 190 in the west, and they just seem too athletic and too fast for maybe any team except the Celtics, because I think at least the Celtics, it's the perimeter. Guys like you watch Dallas, and Dallas was on a good run. They'd won 11 and 12. They really felt like they were starting to turn into something. And they just look slow tonight compared to okc. You put Luca, you put Kyrie, you put Klay Thompson, Najee Marshall, who was really good in the first half. Those are good players. Those are guys. The top five team in the league. And OKC just seemed faster and younger and more athletic. And Luka, I don't know what was going on with Luka. Jacoby, what was your take?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

One of the things that analysts always say about Luka is like, you can't speed him up. You can't speed him up. There's a part of me who's like, hey, Luka, can you speed up? Oh, you can't speed him up. He's always at his own pace. It's like, cool, cool, cool. How about you move a little bit off the ball? There's a couple possessions. He was just in the corner. He's kind of getting that James Harden off ball energy. They're like, oh, someone else has the ball. So I'm just going to stand here with my arms at my sides, like, straight up and down. It's like. It was a. It was a frustrating Luca day. They were doubling him early, which I think was smart because they doubled him early and kind of got the ball out of his hands and didn't let him catch a rhythm until the second half for like a brief spurt.

[Bill Simmons]

You know what, though? I still think they're the number two team in the West. For me, if I had to say, who can actually make the finals, I still have Dallas second. I don't think this is a great matchup for them. And I was trying to think of, like, the rock, paper, scissors thing with the West. I don't know if you guys saw the OKC Houston game. Maybe it was 10 days ago. Houston, I think, is the team in the west that can go toe to toe on this like crazy young, hungry pit bull, just speed, athleticism all over the place. I think that's the only way in the West. Nobody's going to overpower them. There's not going to be like a. Obviously not the lakers, but the LeBron ad type situation where it's just, oh my God, they just got bully ball. They got out rebounded by 10 rebounds. I don't see that happening this year. I almost feel like you have to beat them with what they do. Is there anybody else you see?

[Craig Horlbeck]

Kirk Houston, I think, you know, we'll see tomorrow if they can beat Golden State here in this quarterfinal. I don't see anybody else because Minnesota, I think coming in to the season, Bill was that other team for me and they have just been off to an awkward start. So I don't see the Randle piece really fitting in there to put them in that category. And Dallas was the hottest team in the league, period before for tonight. And I think they clearly deserve number two status. They won the conference. They beat this team in the playoffs last year in six games. So I think until further notice, it's okc, Dallas, then Houston and then.

[Bill Simmons]

Actually, I don't. So you'd have Houston third or just to beat okc, would you? Third in general.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I love Houston at three and I want to see what they do in this tournament. I know some people think it's silly, but I think this is a catapult for them. If they beat Steph and Steve Kerr tomorrow and they get to Vegas and they play the Oklahoma City Thunder, I think it really starts to feel like they're not just a flash in the pan like. Like okc, Bill. Their defensive indicators scream contender. Yeah. They are not just like Orlando. Orlando OKC in Houston. Three young pain in the ass defenses that nobody wants to play against. And IME has really be. Has really built that team up. So I would put them at three. I don't know if there's somebody.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm forgetting the other thing. Well, you're forgetting Memphis because. And we have to mention that because Jacoby does a podcast twice a week on the mismatch with somebody who's like, how the fuck could Kurt Goldsberry not mention Memphis for eight minutes there? What the fuck is he doing?

[Craig Horlbeck]

That might be intentional. I might have heard that. He fast forwards the minutes that I speak on this show.

[Bill Simmons]

Is that true? He does the 15 second fast forward Memphis right now. 5th offensive rating, 7th defensive rating the per 36 stats are crazy for them too. Like Ja, who's really only playing like 28 minutes a game, but he would be 28 and 11 if he played 36. Brandon Clark looks great. So from a speed standpoint, maybe. But I'd kind of like to see those guys play for 20 games. Jacoby. And I'll tell you this, they're dining a lot off that Celtics game on Saturday where the Celtics had played 5 and 7. They had played Milwaukee the night before. And this like he did, my dad was saying it was like a, like a third round playoff game kind of intensity. And then the next day the Celts have to run it back and they had no legs. They were dead. And Memphis kind of steamrolled them. But I don't, I don't think they should take too much out of that Jacobs there.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I don't think any of these teams are, should, would be a favorite in a series against the Thunder. And watching the Thunder tonight, watching them just fly around and watching SGA be like a true go to weapon on offense the way that some of the Rockets don't have to be honest with you. And then every once in a while they cut to this guy in a velour sweatsuit in the second row with a big beard who played like, who looked like he leveled up. Chet, obviously I'm talking about. It's like he's coming back. Like they have a major weapon.

[Bill Simmons]

He looks like a UFC fighter. Like, he's like this UFC middleweight hanging out outside the Octagon, waiting, waiting to see who's going to fight in the next UFC card. But it's Chad Holmgren. He's seven foot one.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah. But I think that people sleep on the fact that they're doing all of this without him. And a lot of, a lot of teams are missing players, but he's like, I don't know, second or third best player. Probably their third best player.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, we haven't seen their, I mean, what we did get to see tonight especially was the Hartenstein piece. The whole, the kind of rebounding center rim protection guy that they just haven't had. Like, we were talking about some of the matchups with them. One of the things that's interesting with Houston is Houston's first in the league in rebounding. They're almost averaging 50 rebounds a game, which I, you know what, sometimes I like the counting stats. I know that, I know the fancy kids, they love the advanced stats and Kirk's got his efficiency map and I, I love all that stuff. Too. But sometimes I like to know who gets the most rebounds every game. And Houston's getting 50 a game. So to Jacoby's point, Kirk, like I do feel like they need Chet and Hartenstein in a Houston series. But the flip side with Houston is I still don't really know who their go to guy is. I watch them game to game and it's like because they're my favorite league pass team and it's like really we're doing the Fred Van Wiet step back. That's our. That's our shot with 50 seconds left. They. I don't think they know like they'll go to Shangoon sometimes depending on the matchup. But it's kind of like a last shot by committee team which makes me nervous in the playoffs.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah, I think that's valid and I think that we went too long not talking about what we saw from SGA tonight. And I think he really is the differentiator in the top of the west because he is legitimately the MVP candidate over there right now. When you look at those three teams we talked about, you throw in Memphis, maybe John Morant, but SGA is on a different plane. And what we saw tonight from him on both sides of the court, nearly scoring 40 points and then just putting up crooked numbers, made some three 5 for 9 from 3, 5 for 9 from 3 and then just sets the tone on defense too. Like he is a truly, truly impressive two way superstar, Bill Simmons. And I think no other team has that. And if it does get to sort of crunch time at the end, you know that the guy who has the ball in his hands can score in an isolation situation. By the way, he's isolating more than anybody else in the league.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

And he. Houston doesn't have that. That is fair to say. And I think that is one of the things that separates the Oklahoma City Thunder from everybody else in the west right now is that their best player can be that guy at the end of a big game. Like we saw tonight.

[Bill Simmons]

Houston does have Dylan Brooks doing Dylan Brooks stuff. I think SGA would be the best guy in the west if Jokic wasn't averaging a 56.1 a game, points, rebounds and assists. He's in the 56 club right now. It's like him and Will Chamberlain. It's just the two of them. They're hanging out. That's it.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Who do you have in the MVP ladder right now just between those two?

[Bill Simmons]

Just because I think the greatest. The greatest statistical season of our adult lifetime.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I agree. But does it matter to you that OKC is emerging as a clear number one and they're sort of dropping down to maybe play in status. Does that factor into the Professor Simmons model?

[Bill Simmons]

It's early, right? I mean, Denver hasn't won two straight games for a month. I don't know what's going on with Jamal Murray. Jokic, I promise you, isn't like, oh, cool, I scored 104 points this weekend. That's not what he's about, but I don't know if he has a choice. I want to see if, you know, if it's 47. 48 wins is kind of a cutoff for me. But if you're a 6 seed or a 7 seed, I think it gets tough. If there's some. Some real candidates, I think Tatum's a candidate. SGA is absolutely a candidate. Jacobs, I think that thing that would really clinch it for sga, having an argument, maybe even becoming a favorite, is if OKC just be. Becomes like a 65 win team, which I think is in play. As hard as the west is, it seems like an accident when they lose. I'm always surprised when they lose. Right.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I. I think 65 might be a little high, but I think they're going to run away with the number one seed in the Western Conference, which is obviously the. The stronger conference, and they're 195 right now. For the record, I try to stay away from the MVP stuff. You know what I mean, on December 24. Yeah, yeah. But I. What Jokic has done is been very impressive. And what he did this weekend, as you mentioned, I'm sure he's like, I don't want to do. I don't want to take 39 shots in a basketball game.

[Bill Simmons]

He's like, you were like that, Jacobs. When you were taking a lot of shots, you were never happy.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I know, I know.

[Bill Simmons]

You want. You want to do no looks and you wanted to do good entry passes and just play team basketball. That's like Jokic.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Hey, what did he do this weekend? Lose to the Wizards? Is that what caught your eyes?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

To the Wizards? Lost to the Wizards and beat the Hawks? Yeah, he scored 104 points.

[Bill Simmons]

That's true. Killed.

[Craig Horlbeck]

It is crazy. It is crazy how. How little he has around him.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

The. What really jumped out of me about those two games was the Westbrook Jokic connection. Like, Westbrook was just feeding him. Westbrook was like the best player on the planet is on my team. Let me just get him in a position to score. It was really impressive. I was. I was impressed by Westbrook this weekend.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Because Murray is kind of like Jokic's basketball wife. And with Westbrook now, he's kind of flirting with the office, with the office assistant who just kind of moved into the office and it's like, whoa, Jokic. Jokic just went to get coffee with Westbrook. Does Murray know about this? That second game that. The SGA thing? I always say this every year. It's just crazy to me after going to some of those games when he was a rookie that this is the guy he is now that he's in a game with Luka where he just completely obliterates Luka and Luka's team, they have no answer for him. If I'm Dallas Kirk, who's my guy that's going to be guarding sga? If I'm seeing them in round two or round three, who's my stopper for sga?

[Craig Horlbeck]

You know, I think PJ Washington is a huge part of that equation.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

And I don't know if. If that's the correct answer, but it's not going to be Kyrie and it's not going to be Luca. I think we all know that. And then they have the big. And, you know, I think PJ would be my. My answer, but, dude, who can guard this guy? Nobody can guard this guy. So Dallas, I think, beat them last year on both sides of the ball. And I think that it was really PJ who, if you look back at the stats from that series, did a lot on both sides.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he made a lot of threes and. Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

So I think I'm hard. I can't talk myself into what I saw from Dallas beating Oklahoma City. But I have very, very, very big recency bias right now because of what we just watched. I think if I zoomed back out seven game series. Yeah. If PJ is going to be 20 and 10, like, kind of like he was, I think was 18 and 8 in that series and shooting threes and playing great defense and they have their bigs and Luca and Kyrie, obviously at the end of games, they could. They could win four games against that team. If everything broke their way last year.

[Bill Simmons]

They were too small and they almost won the series anyway. OkC and it came down to that play in the corner when SGA the foul when he played perfect defense and they lucked out with that one. But they also didn't have Hartenstein last year and Chet got overpowered in that series and just.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Or Caruso. And Caruso was great tonight.

[Bill Simmons]

A different team. And they yet they almost beat them last year. So I'm feeling great. If I'm okay. See the other thing? And who knows? Like, Shams wrote this piece today about, you know, could Jimmy Butler get traded? Zach lavine, I know Jacoby has some thoughts on it. I am like, okc, to me, is the perfect type of team that could make trades because they have all these movable contracts, cheap contracts. They can add stuff together. They're not getting crushed by the apron. They have a million picks they could trade. I'm so confused by the trade rules. And I've read everything, and as you guys know, I'm the trade Mr. Machine Picasso. Like, I take this seriously. I am just absolutely flummoxed by these rules. And even that thing today I read where it's like, yeah, Jimmy Butler. It's like, I'm not sure anybody can add Jimmy Butler. I just. From what I understand about these rules, it feels like they made him too hard. Jacoby. And I'm going to be useless at the trade deadline. I don't like it.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Zach Levine and Jimmy Butler, I don't think will be traded. And I think to bring Jimmy Butler, you have to match the salary. So you're giving up whatever $40 million worth of players to bring in Jimmy Butler, who wants a new contract and has a $52 million player option that he might exercise. It just seems like, who is Jimmy Butler away from contending? And if you're the Thunder, you're going to add a player later. Chet Holmgren, your third best player and your second big. Like, if you were the Thunder, why would you ever even think about picking up a phone call from Miami?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you're not doing that. Golden State's the team. I think it would be Golden State just. I know.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Are they Jimmy Butler away from contending?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I think Shams put in, he had the Texas teams. San Antonio would be super interesting for that, but I think they would have to resign them. And I don't know if that's on their timetable. But Golden State, I think, has real urgency with, you know, I'm not just a body language guy, but I'm also the trade detective. And I did notice this weekend, they're all of a sudden, they're pushing Kaminga. They're. They're. Put them in the starting lineup. Draymond Green's like, you can have my spot. When has Draymond Green ever been this magnanimous? Just, there's a lot of red flags where I was like, huh? What are you guys doing? Are you Almost feels like you're trying to showcase Kamingo for somebody. No, no, take my spot. Jmon Green, the guy who punched Jordan Poole. Now he's Mr. Magnanimous. Take by spot. I don't know. Something that feels like the team because they're on a specific window with Curry. Right. If you feel like you can contend for a title with Curry at age 36, he's already wearing down over the first five, six weeks. Butler makes sense for them. Kirk, you're nodding.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah, I think they've been sort of showcasing players all year. I think it helps explain why Steve Kerr has been playing 12 players a night. Oh, look at all these guys. Like, you could read into it. And I think they're one player short of.

[Bill Simmons]

So you're saying they're like the farmer's market. Come on. We got pistachios, we got Kyle's over here.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Organic.

[Bill Simmons]

There's some chicken. Got chicken over here.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Free sandwich.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a full chicken. Some fruit.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Farm raised. Kyle Anderson over here. But. But I think then. But Jimmy Butler to Houston intrigues me, too, because of something you said earlier, Bill, which is like, who's their guy at the end of the game? We don't have that guy. And Jimmy's from Texas. You could see Eme talking himself into Jimmy Butler. I'm not sold on it. The other thing that I would say is the trade machine. Picasso is coming into hard times. This new cba, I don't like it, pretty much cut the number of teams that could make a trade into half, if not more, because so many teams are limited into what kinds of trades, the financial rules, what they can and can't send out or take back are so punitive or prohibitive that just the trade market itself has shrunk. And I think that's going to sort of limit the amount of Picasso Ing you can do between December.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's going to, like, really, really harm it. But so selfishly, I'm mad because I love making up fake trades, and they're just going to be super unrealistic. But Jacobs, there's this flip side to it where I kind of like it, where guys who are in situations they might not love like, to me, it's like, if we're driving, you know, like, say, Jacobi, you're driving. You have your three kids in the car, and you're like, we're driving all the way to Washington, D.C. and we're not stopping. But your kids are like, dad, can we stop? Can we get something? Can we stop? Stop and they just wear you down. And you eventually stop this. All these apron rules are basically like, the kids are trapped in the car for the entire ride now. Like, if you're being an angry, it's like, I'm going to get off. Can we stop? You're like, can't. Sorry, can't trade.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Nobody wants to get to Uncle House's house. Uncle House's house.

[Bill Simmons]

But everyone's trapped in the car, and you kind of have to make the best of it. And this is what the NBA used to be like. You're like, hey, you're stuck on your team.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

It was also like the Jimmy Butler thing from Shams earlier this morning was like, oh, here are the teams that he wants to go to. I mean, it's like, cool, right? It's kind of like the NFL where they're like, go find yourself a trade. Go ahead, find one. Like, it's like, just because you want to go to those teams doesn't mean there's a deal between us and those teams. And to put that out publicly, it's like it almost feels like they don't really understand the implications of the new cba. It's not happening.

[Craig Horlbeck]

That's a great point, dude. Like, the whole trade demand ecosystem, the whole. The whole. The whole science of the trade demand from the player's perspective, has to get updated, too, because you can't just say, oh, I want to trade and make me make sure it's the Phoenix or whatever.

[Bill Simmons]

But look at Zach Levine's situation. Like, he's playing well for Zach Levine. Like, he's 22, 5 and 5. I've watched a couple games where in the fourth quarter, like, he's, you know, as. As good as he's ever looked. And he could have checked out or been like, well, I'm going to nurse an injury until you guys trade me. But he's not going to get traded, so he might as well make the best of it. It's. It's a little. Reminds me of what happened in football, where in football there's, like, never trades, right? Nobody's like, we traded our left tackle today for somebody starting outside linebacker. It's just everybody's kind of stuck on their team until the end of the year. And maybe that's what basketball's becoming, which is bad for podcast content, but it may be better for basketball, right?

[Craig Horlbeck]

I think so. And I think there's one more layer of it, which is like, the Moneyball era of pro basketball is so intense. Like, we know so much about how bad, bad Contracts are particularly in this new CBA that those were the contracts the teams used to be able hey, take this guy. Maybe you can deal with the contract for a year or two and win a title. No, like I was trying to think of who the best team with a terrible contract is and there aren't many. And so it's like, okay, do you want this Levine deal or this Beal deal? The answer to that question is smaller than ever. Not to mention the point we already made. The rules to get that player in a trade are more sort of strict than ever. So yeah, I think we're in a brand new era and it is bad for podcast content.

[Bill Simmons]

It might be Jamal Murray. Like his extension hasn't even kicked in yet. Well, if he's going to look like he's looked. I mean there's some other ones like Nurkic. I'm sure Phoenix would be dying to trade him in five seconds, right? But yeah, if you look at the best three teams, the Celtics, OKC and Cleveland, none of them really have like the oh man, I wish we didn't have this contract guy. All the contracts are pretty good, but I also feel like it seems like people knew this era was coming and the smarter teams were very careful. Even that OKC deal for Hartenstein, they overpaid him for three years based on what his market was, but it's actually a smart deal. That's how they got him and it's not going to kill them down the road. Unlike how Juan Soto is going to kill the Yankees in the last five years of his deal when he's just destroying them for 60 million a year. Or the Mets that met the Mets. Um, let's take a break. I have some NBA cup questions for you. Big picture, whether we actually like this or not, that's next. The NBA season is flying and FanDuel, America's number one sportsbook, wants to catch all the action right now. FanDuel giving everyone three months of NBA League pass. All you have to do to catch every tip off from buzzer beater is place any $5 bet on the NBA. You can trail me on Fridays. I've been pretty hot with these 30 on 30s we're doing on Fridays with NBA 30 point scores. So stay tuned. I tweet those out on Fridays. Next time you get a hunch on who's going to win or how many points a player will score, you can watch your picks come to life live. You can even bet the NBA cup games on Wednesday, just visit FanDuel.com BS to get three months of NBA League Pass courtesy of FanDuel. Make every moment more with FanDuel, official sportsbook partner of the NBA. You must be 21 + in President select states or 18 + in President DC. After three month free trial, the full price of League Pass will be automatically charged monthly. Cancel any time. No refunds. Terms, restrictions and embargoes apply. Limit one pass per customer. See [e-mail] gambling problem. Call 1-800-G GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com this episode is brought to you by Uber Reserve. You know it's a game changer for travel. Booking my ride in advance to the airport with Uber Reserve. Uber Reserve makes it easy to plan my whole trip. I just did this booking rides up to 90 days in advance to help squeeze the most out of traveling. Especially if you're doing odd hours. Rush hours, like early in the morning, you gotta do it. Plus, with Uber Reserve, you'll get an assigned driver, you get upfront pricing, and you get extra wait time included. So go ahead, plan like a pro. Reserve your Uber ride up to 90 days in advance. See app for details. NBA cup does this work? Jacobs It's Year two. Here's my case for maybe it doesn't work. I didn't want the Celtics to make the quarterfinals or semifinals and have to play the two extra games. I wanted the rest for them. So that tells me fundamentally, Maybe this doesn't 100% work, that I wanted my team not to make it.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Okay, that's a fair point. And I totally understand that thinking. I think the cup works. But I'll address your question and I'll say this. How upset are the Mavs right now after being on the road for like a month, having everyone be sick and they're like, oh, we don't have to go to Vegas and we get what, seven days off in the middle of the year to sort of get healthy. And like I think the maps are on the plane being like, yeah, it kind of sucks. I wish we won, but I don't know. Like, I don't think they're like really bummed tonight.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, Luca was like 100,000 we didn't get, eh?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah. But it's four teams. To me it's four teams like the Hawks, the Rockets and the Thunder. Like, I think that it's really for up and coming teams to get sort of like one and you're done experience. So I don't think it's broken, but I think there are certain teams like the Celtics coming off A championship. Like, what we get, we get to win the Emirates Cup? Like, no, I'm good. I'll take the time off.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you think, Kirk?

[Craig Horlbeck]

I think it's working, but I think those are valid points. In fact, I talked to one Western Conference executive who's like, oh, I'm kind of glad we don't have to go play at Oklahoma City tonight and maybe play Houston in Vegas. And like, I think I'd much rather have the time off or these lesser opponents. I think the league has something. I also think it's really cool that we had these two games tonight and the whole league was watching them. And I wish we had more of that, that sort of community feel where it's not just like league pass overload, where these games are meaningful in December. Like, let's not forget, like, this time of year is really hard. I do think, and I think we talked about this last time, they should use the divisions for the groups and just bring some spice and meaning back to those groupings of teams. I think there's some little stuff. I'm glad we have it. Uh, but I think it is fair to say that some teams are kind of not, not disappointed they're not going to Vegas this weekend.

[Bill Simmons]

I know Embiid's disappointed. He wanted to get those two extra games in. Um, I like the NBA cup, but I think that's the criticism. I was thinking, should there be a couple other things that you win if you win beyond, like, just the money? Like, what if you could get un aproned for the rest of the season? I don't know why the players would care about that, but the fans, I think would be like the Phoenix Suns all of a sudden be like, wait, we're out of the lock separate apron for three months. It's like a get out of jail free card for the apron. What if you guaranteed the six playoff spot?

[Craig Horlbeck]

That's what I think they should do.

[Bill Simmons]

You can't fall lower than six if you win.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

You got to move it later in the season then because, like, if you're locked into six, like, what are we doing?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you could, you could think about the season a little differently. It's an advantage, right? You know, you don't have to be in the playing game. You know, you're going no lower than 6. You can rest guys a little differently. Like, it's a real advantage for the season, I think would be the appeal. But then if you're a team like Atlanta or even Houston, who's probably going to be a top six Team anyway, but I think that would be pretty Orlando, who's losing their entire team to torn obliques. Like, you kind of want the 6 seed. I like that. The other one. The. That's. That's really it. Those are the. You could do a draft pick thing, but I don't know why the players on the team would care. It's like, oh, we've locked down the 15th pick.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

It would be. No, it would be like an insignificant draft pick thing. It'd be like you get like an extra second rounder or something. Like, okay, great.

[Bill Simmons]

With Jacobs. We both have the reality background. You once upon a time were the czar of reality tv. Is there a reality thing we could steal for this? Like, you win and you get to use that power to fuck over another team in some way. Like, you could say, I thought about.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

It in that I'm using by.

[Bill Simmons]

You get your cross and it's like the Celtics now lose a Game 7 at home and you just like stick them with some sort of terrible competitive decision.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Or we can do like. Like a rule changes. Like, TJ would just come out at halftime and be like, all right, guys, here. Here are the four point shots, right? Three circles.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. No corner threes.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I think they should use it as a testing ground for, like, rule changes. Like, I think that'd be kind of fun if they were just like, no three point line and not a four point line or there's no corner threes. I think. I think that'd be fun. And I understand, like, there are reasons you couldn't do that. But just while we're spitballing, I think sort of experimenting about rule changes or court changes you've been considering in these games because they are different. It could be a playground for that.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah, like the Elam ending. Wait, one more thing. The Elam ending would be great. And I know they got rid of it from the All Star game, Bill, but, like tonight, the end of that first game was like 25 minutes, the last two or three minutes. And it bled into the second game. It's like, what are we doing? Doing this free throw, free throw thing.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, just like the NBA cup quarterfinals, semis, and finals are all Elam ending. We just hit a certain score and the game's over. I'm not.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I mean, every pickup game we've ever played ends with a bucket, dude. And then we watch these free throw contests.

[Bill Simmons]

The.

[Craig Horlbeck]

The worst one I saw this year was Cel Cavs. And it was like 30 minutes and it was back and forth, back and forth, and now, because I always say this, the team that's ahead is now fouling a lot of time. So it's just adding to it.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

So I'm a big Elam ending guy, but I like Jacoby's idea. Make it feel special. Do something else. Elam ending is the best I got for that one.

[Bill Simmons]

Jacoby would SGA be fun to play with. He's fun to play pickup with. Okay. He leads the league in unassisted basketball. So it's one of those situations where you don't feel needed.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I know, but like, here's the thing. But if you're like in a pickup game and you're down six, you want SGA on your team so you stay on the court. You know what I mean? It's like you, like you always, you always associate guys you want to play pickup with, guys that move the ball and get teammates involved and sort of like put.

[Bill Simmons]

No, I want to stay on the court and.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah, but like, but you have SGA just to stay on the court. Like, that's why he's good to play pickup with.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, we had, when we played, we had that one guy who was the stay in the court guy, where we knew we would. We would basically just have to rebound and play defense. And he was going to score nine of the 11 points. I can't remember what his name was.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Jalen Rose. I think it was Jalen Rose.

[Bill Simmons]

He was unfair to play. To play it. Let's talk about the other game and whether we believe in Milwaukee Bucks yet. I thought they played really well against the Celtics on Friday in a game that was about as intense as you get in December. There's no love lost between those two teams. Kurt Goldsberry. There's some Giannis, Jalen stuff. There's some Giannis, Al Horford stuff. I felt like Tatum has a little burn of saddle against them. I don't feel like anybody really likes playing against Dame that much. I always feel like people get annoyed by him. But that was a really intense game on Friday, but the Celts won. But what struck me was I thought the Bucs hung with them and could have won the game. And now that Green and Prince have been getting them three point shooting, now that Portis, who looked like he was going to be out of the league first month of the season, now he's back. Now they have Middleton back. Giannis is averaging a 32, 12 and 6. I still don't feel like they're at that top echelon and maybe not even in the second echelon. But they're at least lingering because I honest now. Right? Is that. Would you. Yeah, I don't think they're lurking, but I would go lingering for them. Is that fair?

[Craig Horlbeck]

Think they're 11 and 3 in their last 14 games after starting 2 and 8 and what you just said, one of the sort of deep cut takes is like, yeah, AJ Green, Gary Trent, Torian Prince, Bobby Portis. They're getting really efficient three point shooting from those dudes. And then Giannis stopped shooting threes. He stopped shooting threes today. He shot his first three in six games. I think he shot another one at the end of the game, but he'd gone five games without shooting a three. He's attacking the rim and then they're surrounding him with shooting. Tonight they played a smaller lineup. They took Brook out and they put these aforementioned shooters. Chris Middleton's back in lineups. Damian obviously spacing, starts at the rim. Giannis pressures the rim better than anybody in the league right now, and he can make passes. If they can make those shots, they're very good. The Bucks were always supposed to be this good. The only thing weird was they were 2 and 8. Do I trust them to be better than the Boston Celtics? No. But it looks like they've righted the ship and look like they're a viable Eastern Conference contender now because Giannis is putting up scoring title numbers and they're getting this three point shooting from the supporting cast and now they're. They're whole. So they have Chris, Damian and Giannis. They were supposed to be good.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm a little worried about the Lopez piece of it. He looked really old in the Celtic game, and I thought he was the biggest reason they lost. And it feels like there's. There's a Giannis, Portis, shooters and Dame, and whether Middleton's in that or not, we'll find out. But that seems to be probably their most successful lineup, which is weird because Lopez was so essential to what they did. I don't know, Jacobs. I still don't feel like the Giannis Dame thing is perfect and maybe it will never be, but it almost feels like Dame. It's like, hey, Giannis isn't going to play today. Dame, you're going to have to take a lot of shots. I don't feel like he's shedding tears. You know what I mean? I don't feel like they've totally figured it out yet, but they're kind of scotch taping it and duct taping it together now.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Body language, Doctor doesn't love that duo as much as I wanted to when he signed, but we always, like, I think people are critical of Dame. It's like he scores 25.7 points a game and gets 7.5 assists a game.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, he's like, 37% from three now. Yeah.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Like, is that so bad? Like, is that. What are we being critical of, really? And, you know, Derry Bird, Torian Prince is shooting 54% from three on, like, 3.6 attempts or something. Like, it's not. It's not fake. Like, they're surrounding two of the biggest offensive weapons in the league with shooting. Defensively, we can just pass over that.

[Bill Simmons]

They're not stopping anybody when they want it all. Tatum to Tatum against the Bucks, he's like, this is awesome. Sorry, Kirk, I interrupted him.

[Craig Horlbeck]

No, I was just saying when they were great, when they won it all, they were great on defense. Like, this was a defensive juggernaut, too, with Brooke and Giannis protecting the paint, and then Drew and Chris and the role players all seeming like, you know, these younger Thunder Rockets teams that we're seeing the more like, yeah, they were a great defense, and I don't see that happening. And for that reason, I'm out to. To. To quote Mark Cuban on their ability to compete with Boston and maybe even Cleveland at the very top of the Eastern Conference.

[Bill Simmons]

Are you a believer? Ime said this, like, three weeks ago about. He's like, if you look at all the teams that have won a title or made the finals, they're all like, top five defense. Yeah, I think he's right. I actually think it's that simple.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah. And, like, even tonight, Suggs had Dame in front of him, and he dribbled between his legs like, four times, then just, like, shot a three, and it was like, Suggs, like, that's Dane Lillard. Just put your shoulder down and go past him in a key point. I was really disappointed in that particular possession because I think there's a reason that when Dame is guarding somebody that there's no screener. There's a reason.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. Well, and then when he. When Dame wasn't on him, he was getting the switch. But they were asking a lot from Suggs in that game. In fact, this is a good time to bring in Steve Cerruti for two seconds because we have a very important Orlando Magic question. So at halftime, were you. Were you on Expedia or wherever looking for Vegas, Hartford to Vegas tickets? Were you thinking about it? You were. We weren't.

[Steve Cerruti]

I definitely was. And it was like, it was Like, I saw Gladiator 2 on Friday and I had really low. I had really low expectations for it, and I really enjoyed it. I liked the movie. I don't know if we. If it needed to be made. It was kind of the same as the first one, just with, like, a new thing. I had really low expectations Night didn't know what to expect. I didn't know if we hit 90 points because I'm just. I don't know where the scoring comes from. And then, yeah, like, that first quarter happens and I'm like, I'm in this team's. This team that we're going to win the game. And, like, you get the halftime. They kind of, you know, I think they're down one at halftime, but anything's on the table. It just sucked because that Suggs injury in the third quarter, they were, I think, down one at the time. He goes out for a couple of minutes and I think he comes back in. They're down 8, and they have to climb back the rest of the game to get there. But without that, like, at the end of the day, the guys, like, when they're fully healthy, like, I think they're capable of beating anybody. They're capable of beating anybody.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah.

[Steve Cerruti]

It's not. I'm not saying they'd be favored against any of these teams, but they are capable of beating anybody.

[Bill Simmons]

My friend Sean Grandy, who is the radio guy for the Celtics, who's, I think, a good basketball kind of thinker with this stuff. He's. Orlando is the team he's afraid of for the Celtics when they get everybody back because he thinks they're defensive upside. And they didn't have Isaac tonight either.

[Steve Cerruti]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

He thinks their defensive ceiling is the high. Like some people would say it's Tibbs and Knicks, but I just think it's going to be too easy to get point. The Knicks are in a weird position where it's. Their offense is probably going to be more dangerous than their defense in the playoffs, but I think Orlando. So the case for them would be the defense giving Franz all those reps without Paolo. And now Suggs turning into, like, Russell Westbrook 2017 late, like, just doing everything on the Magic Jacobi. Are you buying sug stock yet?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I bought a lot of sug stock preseason because of defense. I didn't see this Suggs, but it is.

[Bill Simmons]

This is Gonzaga Suggs.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

It just seems like Paolo's playing so well and then Franz steps up and plays so well, and then Franz is out. Now Suggs steps up, plays. If Suggs has legit hurt hand. It's gonna be like mo Wagner scores 30 and 12 and 10. It's like, what is happening? It just seems like someone on that team is gonna play like an all Star. No matter what happens.

[Steve Cerruti]

Anthony Black is next if Suggs goes down. Yeah, I was nervous. You gotta get some K tape or whatever, get his obliques taped up so we can't get him. There's some oblique like, you know, like, you know, epidemic breaking out in Orlando. But yeah, when his thumb got hurt, I was like, you gotta be kidding me. Cause that's the thing about the NBA cup is, like, cool. Like, this is fun and all, but, like, if we're really gonna lose Suggs for an extended period of time, like, pass on the NBA Cup.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the other piece with the Orlando that's been interesting with these guys going out is, I don't know, they took the. They took the training wheels off Anthony Black a little bit.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

He got. What's. What's the. What's the hairdo? He's rocking these days. He moves some hairstyles around.

[Steve Cerruti]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And he's got. There's like a little bun in the back.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Totally different player. Totally different player.

[Bill Simmons]

I was like a new guy. Like, I didn't know who it was.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Who's that? Anthony Black.

[Bill Simmons]

But there's a lot of stuff to like with him, and I don't really know what his ceiling is. And I'm sure when we get to like, game four of a playoff series and he's in the corner, teams are going to be like, go ahead, take that. But the fact that he's not a bust feels like a win cerule.

[Steve Cerruti]

So it was kind of an uncharacteristic game from him. He's. He was weirdly bad defensively tonight. He. That he got lost like a couple of times, but he actually scored way more than you think he was. Had assist, rebounds, and a lot of that was just like, you know, because they just need an extra ball handler. I would say, too. Like, I'm not nervous. Like, the panic meter is not going off, but like $22 million a year, like KCP, seven points. Kind of, kind of, kind of hoping for more than that in a situation where, you know, you kind of need a veteran to step up. And honestly, like, all these young guys, like, even just like Tristan Silva, like, he's. He started tonight. Started a lot of games since Franz and Paulo have been out, and he's been fine. And I really like the two big lineup. The Wendell playing the Four kind of like it's, it's, it can't really work whenever, when they're fully healthy. But in this version of the team without Isaac, he's actually really good at getting those spots, like kind of top of the key, throwing those lob passes, like being a facilitator. I think he had the best plus plus, minus on the Magic tonight. He was awesome.

[Bill Simmons]

Kirk, what do you see from the Magic?

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yes. Rudy should be thrilled, man. I was talking to Vince Carter and Jalen. We were watching this game and we were like, holy crap. Like these guys are going to be a problem. And I'm with Sean Grandy. I don't think anybody wants to play this team in the playoffs. I'm not saying they would beat the Celtics, but they're a pain in the ass to score on.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

And like Oklahoma City, they're a pain in the ass to pass on and get rebounds on. I love the two big lineup. I love that it's Mo and Goga and Wendell. Like they're playing bigger than almost any Da Silva too. When he's at the three, they're just big. And yeah, the biggest point here is they didn't have three or four of their normal rotation pieces of Gary Harris, Jonathan Isaac, but obviously Gary Harris, Bill's favorite, Paolo. Paolo and Franz who you know, torn oblique club, like stand up, like. And as a holder of Suggs coin for years now, you guys should be thrilled. I know you didn't get the result tonight, but it looks like you're built for war for a long time. And you're the Orlando Magic. You guys should be thrilled.

[Bill Simmons]

And two, two games you didn't have to play. It's not like the NBA cup was going to do anything for you. It's two more games where nobody's getting hurt. Right. Oh, he's got time out.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Hold on. This is, this is just too much, like too much for me. They don't have a player that can hit a three point shot in 2024. They don't have one. So can we just like address that? They don't have a player that can hit a three point shot.

[Bill Simmons]

It's tough. 30. They're 30th in a three point shooting. 31%. They're 28th in corner threes.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Is that so scared to play? I'm so scared to play them in the playoffs. Yeah, but the worst shooting team in the league.

[Steve Cerruti]

But Paula, Suggs and Franz are all fine.

[Bill Simmons]

They're all fine. I have to do that to Cerudi. He's got like, no, it's a good guy. Torn and bleeding on there.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

No one wants to see this team in the playoffs.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, their defense is hard, but I.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Think those corner threes come from good movement elsewhere. Corner threes are created when their best offensive players are doing other shit somewhere else on the court. Those guys aren't playing particularly their best offensive player. And now Franz isn't playing, who's also great at offense. So those are like indicator species. Yes, they're three point shooting personnel. Jacoby does lack KCP is underwhelming, but some of these are sort of byproducts of the offense itself. Just not having its alpha and beta creators.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, liked how you use the alpha and beta. Sirudi, did you know where your oblique was five weeks ago?

[Steve Cerruti]

No idea. I thought it was a leg injury.

[Bill Simmons]

Part of your hip. Where did you think it was on your body?

[Steve Cerruti]

I thought it was like an inner quad thing. I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

Jacob.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah, because they're called love handles. That's all you have to do. It's for us. For athletes they're called obliques. For us, they're called love handles.

[Bill Simmons]

That's where they are. Right under.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Right under wheels are your obliques. It's a love handle injury that is sweeping through the magic locker room. Love handles.

[Bill Simmons]

I wonder if they even knew how to diagnose this like the 80s. Like, like Bob McAdoo had a torn oblique for the entire year and had no idea. Cause he's like, ah, my side hurts. They're like, bob, take some aspirin.

[Steve Cerruti]

Slept on Iran.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but how did two guys. I know everyone's asking this, but it is fucking weird. How did two guys get the same injury? It's like a haunted house. I don't understand it.

[Jacoby]

The.

[Steve Cerruti]

I guess Fran said he didn't even. He doesn't even know what he did it.

[Bill Simmons]

He doesn't know different plays and he couldn't even know what the play was.

[Steve Cerruti]

So maybe he doesn't even know where his oblique is either. He's like, what's hurt?

[Bill Simmons]

Really weird. Rank your three. Your three teams you're afraid of in the East. Boston, obviously one. Who's two?

[Steve Cerruti]

Cleveland. And I guess I'm. I guess I'm buying the Milwaukee. The Milwaukee Kool Aid over the Knicks.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Oh, please.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, die easy. Knicks fan Dave Jacoby is upset.

[Jacoby]

No.

[Steve Cerruti]

And this. Maybe this is a little essential league. You just kicked our ass the other night and scared the crap out of me. Because if we had lost that game by 37, we would have been out of the NBA cup, and that would have been one of the most embarrassing.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

It was on the table.

[Steve Cerruti]

It was very much on the table in the third quarter and against. And against Tibbs. That's the one guy you don't want to beat against. But I don't know. I'm still. I mean, the Cap Brunson thing is like incredible offensively right now, but they're not the same team defensively. And I just. I'm a little. I'm a little worried about the playoff thing with the playoff cat defensively, how's that going to look? What's the Mitchell Robinson minutes like? I don't know. I'm just like. I'm with Bill, too. The Bridges thing, Listen, we're picking hairs. They were good. They're a good team, obviously, but I. I don't know. There's something about this Knicks team I'm not ready to fully go all in on Kirk.

[Bill Simmons]

Were you seeing 25 and 13 with 46% 3 point shooting from Towns this year? Was that in your bingo card, Dude?

[Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

He is incredible. I didn't know that Tom Thibodeau was an offensive genius until this year.

[Bill Simmons]

I think that. Yeah, Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I just learned that 25 and 13, though, I think I would have. I would have put him around there. The 45, 46% number from three point is crazy, dude.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought it was going to go the other way. I thought it was going to be like, oh, they. They gotta figure out how to get in the ball more because there haven't been enough. Instead, it's like this. Him and Brunson as a combo have been crazy. And then it seems like the Knick fans really like them, too. That's the other thing that I think was up in the air.

[Craig Horlbeck]

They're gonna get precious and they're gonna get Mitch Robinson back, and we don't. I don't think we've seen what their defense really could be. Yeah, but I'm with Ceruddy. I definitely go Celtics, Cavs, Knicks, then I go Bucks. But I do think the Knicks offense deserves respect. They can. They can score against anybody in a variety of ways. It's just like their. Their shooting is great. And then Brunson and Kat. I do love the geometry, to borrow Jalen's basketball geometry phrase. I love what the Knicks have spacing the court right now.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I think I'd give slight edge to the Bucks because of just how crazy Giannis is this year.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It just seems like anytime he wants to go downhill and get. He turns. So my daughter went to the game on Friday because my dad got a Covid shot. And I don't know. First of all, why did he get a Covid shot? Second, what.

[Jacoby]

Wait, what?

[Bill Simmons]

In the year 2024, him.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

And did he get injected with COVID Is that his Covid shot?

[Bill Simmons]

How does it work? Nobody. Dad, it's 2024. What are you doing? So he got a Covid shot, and then, go figure, him and my stepmom both felt like crap the next day. So my daughter got to go with her boy boyfriend, and she hadn't seen Giannis in person, and it was. So she called me after, and she was like, dad, is he, like the best player of all time? Like, where does he. What. What's going on with that? It just seems like every time he wants, he could just bulldoze over everybody and get a layup or a dunk. And I'm like, yeah, it's kind of.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

No, it's fat guy from Serbia.

[Bill Simmons]

Actually, this fat guy is going to have 104 points this weekend in two games. But I think we've been watching the honest think for so long, we forget just fundamentally how insane it is that he can just basically get to wherever he wants, no matter what the defense is. Middleton is the thing with them. I. To me, it's a 3A 3B thing, and I want to know where we are with Middleton in March. And then Orlando is kind of lurking as the. Who knows team Miami. It's interesting. I. And I don't think they have any chance to move up into this ladder, but they do seem like they've figured out something over the last two weeks with their team. Like, Hero carries the offense for three quarters. Butler kind of takes over late. Bam's having a really weird season. Like, all his field goal stuff and stuff around the rim is terrible. It's really, like, uncharacteristic, but for some reason, I could see them maybe upsetting somebody in one round, but not more than that. And that's really it. I don't even know who else we would have in the East. Serudi, you seem. You seem, like, serenely confident, just focused on March and April.

[Steve Cerruti]

It just sucked. The Franz injury sucks because it takes away, like, the potential all star, the potential most improved. Like, all that stuff is kind of not well.

[Bill Simmons]

It took away the supermax, though, which is good for you, I guess that could have been like a salary cap nightmare to have two supermax.

[Steve Cerruti]

Speaking of contracts, I need to. I need to say this to the people who this summer were criticizing the Jalen Suggs deal of. What was it, five years, $150 million for a guy that scores 12 points.

[Bill Simmons]

Who criticized that?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

People. Who's that?

[Bill Simmons]

People.

[Steve Cerruti]

People. Yes, Yes.

[Kyle Brandt]

A lot of.

[Jacoby]

A lot of.

[Kyle Brandt]

A lot of our friends.

[Steve Cerruti]

Georgia Border, maybe some Raptors fans were still a little upset about how that, how that draft. By the way, the 2021 draft is my favorite draft in recent history. It's incredible. Like, go down the list of just every like week, I feel like you change the order of what guys you want. Yeah, obviously. Franz Suggs. What do we got? Cade Mobley, Sengun. Jalen Green. Barnes. Jalen Johnson was in that draft. Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Unbelievable.

[Steve Cerruti]

Draft pay sucks. The man's worth the money. He's one of the best winners in the league. He does things that other guys like he is, he is the ultimate winning player and whatever you need him to do. And you saw it tonight, like, he doesn't, he doesn't need to be a 30 point a game scorer, but he was tonight.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he's a third guy on a championship team and maybe even potentially has the, the ceiling of being a second guy if he was with somebody incredible. Right. Like being like the Jamal Murray Drew holiday spot if you get to play next to a Giannis or Jokic. All right. Thanks for stopping in, Cerudi.

[Steve Cerruti]

Thanks, guys.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Appreciate you.

[Bill Simmons]

Congrats on your, on your heroic effort tonight. Yeah.

[Steve Cerruti]

Hopefully we'll see you in April, May.

[Bill Simmons]

Before we go, Jacoby, you want to talk about Embiid?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I do.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you got?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

What the fuck is going on? Just like what is going on? Like, I. My questions for you, Bill, are what is the plan? Do his teammates like him? And all I hear about is like, how little he communicates with the team about his availability, how he's late all the time. Like Vernon knew some guy who said he missed the team buses like the day after the report came out that he was late. It's just all like he's become. In the last three years, he's turned from one of the most likable stars in the league to someone who I'd like less and less and less every three months. And we're there right now.

[Bill Simmons]

So here's why I've landed Goldsberry to me. Remember we used to have that joke about Twitter when Twitter was really like a place a lot of people went to that you just wish you could have certain stories and just not even see them, that you could mute the story if a story was happening. You just Wouldn't even know about it. That's how I feel about Embiid might play tonight. Embiid's not going to play tonight. Embiid's going to rest tonight. Embiid has some swelling again. Embiid's feeling better. I just. I'm just out. I'm tapping out. I can't do it. The chronic swelling was the most disturbing part of that story. I thought this weekend, it's not even like he re injured or anything. It was like, like, yeah, it's maintenance because he has chronic swelling. What does chronic swelling mean? None of it sounds good. Goldsberry, you were. You were at San Antonio when this was going on with Kawhi. It was a little different. There was more mystery. And Kawhi was younger. He wasn't 7 foot 3, carrying a bunch of weight. But this just has a stranglehold over your franchise after a certain point, right?

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah, that's a perfect word. It really is just like a black cloud or a stranglehold. I'd actually compare it to Tim. A lot of people forget that Tim Duncan had a really bad knee his entire career. And the scourge that is known as load management has a lot to do with Tim Duncan's knee and Greg Popovich and the staff really making sure that they could get everything and then. But that also meant that Tim had to be very serious about his nutrition and his sleep and all this other stuff. And I think as Joel enters sort of the later stage of his career, if he wants to keep playing at this level, he has to be more serious, more professional. Not just about being on time to the bus, but taking care of his body. Like, the reason LeBron is LeBron at this age is because he was really careful about his body and respected that stuff. And unfortunately, this is what it looks like when somebody doesn't do that kind of thing, in my opinion. And I'm not quite sure where this is going. I do think Philadelphia has reasons to be more optimistic than the last time we talked about these guys on the podcast. I still think the east, what we just went through is like, oh, Maybe Miami's the 5 seed. Unfortunately, there needs to be 8 playoff teams in the Eastern Conference, and I think Philadelphia will get one of those slots. And so I think they could be pretty patient here. I just agree with what you guys are saying. This is really troubling. Like the lack of communication, the lack of clarity, the weird Timmy Bontemps quotes from this week. It's depressing. I don't even know it's injured. It's just inflammation. These are bad signs, guys.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. This happened to the Celtics in 09 with KG. I don't know if you remember, KG got hurt. They were like 31 5. They had some crazy record. And it was like, kg's coming back. And then it was just, is he coming back? And then it was like, team not sure. Still feeling pain. Nobody's saying anything. And it just turns into this. That, like you said, a black cloud where you don't know game to game, week to week. What's weird is that I guess he looked pretty good in that Bulls game. I didn't watch it. I just saw the highlights.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I watched the game. It was weird. He like, he started out terribly, like he was like 0 for 7 or something. It was like. And everything was short. Like that Memphis game was the same thing where everything was short. And he has this brace, like his full leg brace on. They started to get warmed up and they're spamming this. Like they're spamming this high pick and roll with him. And Maxi and Maxi would just give him a pocket pass and he would just shoot from like 16ft. And Bosevich just didn't do anything about it. And even if Boostvich was on him, he would just jab, step and then shoot over him. And he was like, I don't have the numbers for him. He's like 8 for 10 from like around the foul line.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Which is where in my opinion, when he was best, when actually Doc was coach, he would just like operate from the foul line. But he would do a lot of distributing and like driving. But they really just like. It got to the point where in the third quarter he was just absolutely wet from the mid range. He scored a ton of points after starting over seven, looking like he might as well just go back on the bench.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's like when you see in a sports movie, there's the fat old washed up guy who wanders on the court and just starts hitting 20 footers. It just seems like a bead. He's so skilled from 18, 19ft. It doesn't matter. They had him played for a month. All of a sudden he could just hit nine straight 20 footers. But you know, not to be a party pooper, but you know, they're in this stretch. They were calling it. Hollinger called it NBA, the NBA bye week, basically, where everybody has like one or two games over the course of eight days and they're playing Chicago. Then they have all this rest so he can have a game. He's playing Vucevich, he's playing the Bulls, who are a bottom five defensive team. And he can go out there, get a good run, get his points, not have to worry about playing the next day. I. It's hard to feel optimistic after that, is my point. Like, I want to see what their schedule starts to get harder. I think at the end of the year, they've got. Did they have a road trip? Is he going to be on the road trip? Is he going to play? Then there's the part that you mentioned about the teammates being asked about it. What do you think about Joel? How much do you guys miss Joel? It's just day after day and, you know, it's not awesome. Especially when you're competing against teams like okc where it's like. Like everybody's young and hungry and they're all doing the post game press conferences together and they're. And they're hanging out and they're ready to go. So I don't know how it plays out. I'll tell you this, though. The extension. Yeah, that's just a. Wow.

[Craig Horlbeck]

No, that is a very debilitating contract. And we talked about this earlier. It's like, you don't see a lot of good teams with this new cap bill with any bad contracts, let alone a max contract with a guy who's not playing that hasn't even kicked in.

[Bill Simmons]

From the extension part yet.

[Craig Horlbeck]

A hundred percent. It's like, how do you build a team when you have that much sort of money locked up in a player that may or may not even be able to play most nights?

[Bill Simmons]

Jacoby, who's your favorite rookie?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

My favorite rookie?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

In terms of like, to watch or like I would want on my team. Because, I mean, my favorite rookie is obviously Jared McCain just like as a vibe, you know what I mean? Because he's so much fun and just sort of like, so himself off the court. But I am also on Risa Shea Island.

[Bill Simmons]

I wish he made threes. He's like 28% from three. But everything else is there. Fluid. I know.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Like that team of Johnson, Daniels, Risha, it's like Trey or no Trey, like, that is a core that I really, really like in Italy. I'm much higher in Atlanta than like, I should be and I'll admit that. But I feel the same about Risa Shay. Like, I've watched. He had a huge game. I forget who was against. It was early in the season, he had like 30 points or something. I was like, this dude looks like a number one pick. In the NBA draft.

[Bill Simmons]

He's good. He knows what he's doing. I had over under bet. I had over bets for them before the season. When I was in Denver last week I doubled down because the over was still too low because I think that's a over.500 team. I think my favorite rookie is Castle. Yes, good point for what he's going to do. I think this year I think they're going to have real trouble keeping them out of the lineup and there's a chance like he's their second best player by the end of the year. I just like him. I like how hard he plays. He seems like the kind of guy OKC would have. Just like a really, really, really gives a shit two way guy. He can't really shoot yet. But I thought he was my favorite guy heading into the draft. I thought he's the guy. I would have taken number one if I was Atlanta. And everything I've seen from him, I would not waiver on that one. I want to see more. Reed Shepard is the one I think I'm the most interested by because I don't think Van Vliet's had a good season and the shooting stats back it up like they're not good. And I wonder, you know, I know they have like a. I forget if it's a player option or a team option next year, but Reed Shepard within two years will probably be running that team. But I almost. That's one of those where you want like, you know, Van Buyde to have some very minor injury for three days or three games just to kind of see Reed Shepard get to drive the car out of the garage a couple times. He's one. It's weird. I like this draft more than I thought. Kirk. There's a lot of guys, they're not superstars, but there's a lot of guys where I'm like. I kind of like that guy. Even clinging on Portland. I like Zach Edey. There's a bunch of them.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I'm going to come back to you on Edie because I need to know how the surf has been over at Eady island if the seawalls are holding up. But I want to know. Yes, Castle is the answer for me and it's not close and I'm obviously close to the Spurs. They are very excited about all the stuff he does. I love the description of a Thunder like player. He is that kind of dog in him stereotype. But he does the stuff that doesn't show up in the box score. They love this guy. He's out adding sort of an edge to their group. I think Jeremy Sohan is kind of like that, too, and I think it could help them. You know, they're. They're destined to build a great defense in San Antonio, and I think he could be part of that. Yeah, like. Like Lou Dort, another potentially great defender. He needed to get a shot, and Lewis figured that out. So I feel like Castle could. Could get a little of that Dalton connect, obviously needs to be mentioned. I know he's older, but I think he's been fantastic given where they got him in the draft. I'm still on Recherche Island. I'm not giving up on that anytime soon, but for me, and I'll say Reed Shepard, I think is going to be great in this league for a long time, but I'm going. Castle has really won me over in the last few weeks, specifically. But tell me, Bill, Zach Eady, was he everything you dreamed of, or are you a little bit let down at this point in the season?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I think Memphis is so deep.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

That I thought he would actually be this important, like, weird. Just kind of, you know, throw a cannonball in the pool just to shake it up kind of thing. But they don't need it. They just have too many good bench guys. Their bench is crazy. And the fact that Aldama is actually good now, huffing Al Dama.

[Kyle Brandt]

Yeah.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

You can't take minutes away from huffing Aldama. What, are you crazy?

[Bill Simmons]

No, those guys.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

He's also not available. He's just not available right now. We haven't seen him too much.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, true. Yeah. Sar, that's probably the worst possible situation for a guy like that. It's like your team's going to just be awful and you're just going to learn some bad habits. But too early to say we talk about him. I mean, one other thing with Memphis, like, another reason that Edie's probably not even going to play that much is that Brandon Clark has. I was so impressed with him in the Boston game, but just. It feels like he's got his explosiveness back and he's a really unique player. Like that crazy, undersized energy guy that always seems to be on good teams. So, yeah, I like the draft. We'll see. With Dillingham, that was the other one I was super duper intrigued by. But it feels like they phased them out a little bit because they're trying to get their defense going. So we'll see what happens with that. Who's your most disappointing team Jacoby, Indiana.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I mean that's. You're leading the witness. So I'm going to try to go with another team.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, you're going to zag on me. That's fine.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I'm trying to. But I mean, obviously the most disappointing team is the Sixers. But I think there's a reason for that. Just availability. Like I think the Sixers, you know, I think the Sixers will turn around and end up being a playoff team. Let's not forget they were in the play in last year and ended up in like a really good series against the Knicks. But it has to be the Pacers and Halliburton. And remember this time last year at the, during the in season tournament it was called at the time they were, they were the bell of the ball and Halliburton was this like rising superstar. They put him in the stupid commercial with Rosario Dawson and he's not even a factor whatsoever. And his like home road stuff is really strange. I don't think I've seen anything like that. But yeah, I would, I would say the Pacers because it's, it's, you know, the expectations were at a point where they're just not reaching.

[Bill Simmons]

It's probably Tommy Alter's fault. Who's your most disappointing team, Kirk?

[Craig Horlbeck]

Well, this one's for Chris Vernon, the Memphis Grizzlies. I've been very disappointed. What do you. I'm just kidding. Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right. I would say the Minnesota Timberwolves because I thought I hand up. I thought the Randle trade was good. Dante DiVincenzo too. It hasn't worked. It has not worked. They went from having a very strong identity with great defense and good offense to not really having an identity and looking like a middle of pack team in the Western Conference when most of us thought they were going up a level, not down a level in this exact season. Bill. So for me, I think the Pacers have a very strong claim to this conference finalists. But I will say Minnesota because I really want Anthony Edwards to be the face of American superstars in the next five, 10 years. I love everything about him. So I've been particularly disappointed with that team's performance after what they did last year.

[Bill Simmons]

Those are two great choices. Congratulations to both of you. But the answer is the Phoenix Suns.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

They don't have kd.

[Jacoby]

Okay, what do you want them to do?

[Bill Simmons]

Yep, they don't have KD. Make excuses for big shot Bob Sarver.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

They're 13 and 11, one in nine without KD.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, but guess what? They traded all their first round picks, they traded Mikael Bridges, they traded Cam Johnson, they traded Deandre Ayton, they traded all their second round picks, they traded everything to have basically a three guy team. And one of the three guys has been in the league since 2007, has a bunch of injuries and has gotten hurt twice. And I don't know why I fell for it. It made me mad. They were one of my favorite overs. I picked them to win the division. I thought they were going to be a 50 plus win team. And I forgot the fact that they're built around this guy who's been in the league for 18 years, asking him to be their rim protector, their crunch time score to put do 30 a game, nine rebounds a game, make 50% of your shots and 45% of your threes, do everything. And it's like, oh, guess what? He lasted a month before he got hurt twice. And I'm just mad at myself more than anything. But you have to be disappointing when you trade literally a decade of stuff for the team you have in your 13 and 11. So that's my answer. Kurt's.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

When they made the Beal trade, were you like, that's great. Well, like no one liked that trade.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Especially now with all the apron stuff that happened. That trade looks even a hundred times worse. Like you would much rather have the flexibility now but. But when you just consider all the assets they sent out for the team that they have now and it's all hinging on. Well, when Durant's healthy might not happen. You know, he's seven foot one and he's had a lot of lower below the hip injuries at this point and they put a huge burden on him and play him big minutes and I would just be nervous if I was a sense.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah, I could see you counterpoint. You don't want to draw them in the first round of the playoffs because they're. Let's, let's imagine KD plays well, gets back. They're going to climb in the standings. Like right now, I think they're 10th or whatever. They're going to climb in the standings and then you see them in the first round and you're like, man, Booker and Katie can get on a heater, you know, like that. It feels a little bit like they're basically the Sixers.

[Bill Simmons]

But counter, does everybody have two good guys at this point?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

No, no, the Rockets have zero. They're one of the best teams in the league.

[Bill Simmons]

But they can play defense though.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I guess for, for me, Kirk, with Phoenix like that, you know there's always going to be now that Nurkic is pretty much unplayable. So leaning on Plumlee now as their center and Tyus Jones. These are like bench guys. These are guys that would be like 10th or 11th players on the Celtics or the Thunder and these are two of their crunch time guys.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah, it goes back to our theme earlier. It's like there's not a lot of old and overpaid great teams in the NBA right now and their best players older. As you pointed out. Devin Booker's certainly not old. I'm not mad at his contract. The Beal deal to me sticks out like a sore thumb on their cap sheet. Nurk like you have to have pretty much a perfect roster and I, I kind of agree with you. Doesn't everybody have at least one superstar that we're talking about winning at all? Yeah, pretty much. I think that is fair. And to me the differentiating stuff is now lower down on your depth chart and that's where this team is just really not great. And I don't think they'll ever be able to play defense well enough to keep up with the top teams in the west. But I keep going back to that Bradley Beal decision because that was a lot of depth. They traded essentially for one other player that might have sort of a repetitive role next to Devin and Kevin.

[Bill Simmons]

70 plus million for Bradley Beale and Nurkic and Bobo Bo Bo bowl still on the team. Yeah.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Smells like new owner decisions.

[Bill Simmons]

Guys. Thanks for staying up with me. It's a pleasure seeing you. Great seeing you in your weird, weird, undisclosed New York City location at one in the morning. We don't know where you are. Be careful walking home. Jacobs. Kirk, great to see you. We even though we were your sloppy seconds tonight, I had a great time talking guys. I will see you soon, I'm sure. Thanks for coming on. This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. It's nice to see all the different family traditions people do this time of year. You know, it's become one of my new favorite traditions. My daughter comes home from college. We haven't seen her in la, where I live since the beginning of August. So when she comes home it feels like the conquering hero's back. I love it. However you plan to spend your time during the holiday season, I hope you guys are happy but also you should be feeling that way all year round. So make sure you bring yourself some comfort that'll never go away. And try therapy. Therapy teaches us so many different skills and coping techniques like positive coping skills, how to relax. And it can help everyone, not just people who have experienced a major trauma. If you want to try it out for yourself, check out BetterHelp. It's an easy, convenient way to get started, especially since everything is online. All you have to do is fill out a short questionnaire and then you'll be matched with a licensed therapist. It's that easy. Find comfort this December with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com billsimmons today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp Help. Billsimmons this episode is brought to you by SimpliSafe. When it comes to the safety of me and my family, there's only one home security system I trust, and that's Simplisafe. I love having it in my home. Helps protect every inch of it, inside and out. And if you want to try it for yourself right now, perfect time to get it. There's an amazing Black Friday sale going on for my listeners. I am talking 50% off here, everybody. Also, reasons to have Simplisafe. Holiday season's coming. Talk about this every year in the BS Pod. Guess what happens during holiday season? People start kind of casing your house a little bit on Wednesdays before Thanksgiving. Are they home? Did they go away? Oh, wait, there's no cars in the driveway anymore. I'm moving in Christmas packages. Maybe they're going to try to steal those. Well, they won't if you have Simplisafe because you're going to be guarded against the porch pilots. Simplisafe helps to stop crime before it happens. Professional monitoring agents that can see, speak to and deter intruders. And if someone's lurking around or acting suspiciously, they can and will take action. So check out Simplisafe today. Keep your home, your family, and your peace of mind protected. And remember, a massive Black Friday sale is being extended by Simplisafe for my listeners this week only. You can take off 50% off any new system with a select professional monitoring plan. It's your last chance to claim the best offer of the year. So don't wait. Head to simplisafe.com BS to claim your discount. Make sure your home is safe this season. Once again, SimpliSafe.com BS SimpliSafe with two eyes SimpliSafe.com BS there's no safe like SimpliSafe. All right, we're taping this part on a Monday. I did a rewatchables taping with Kyle Brandt, who We haven't been together in a long time, really. Since super bowl with the Giants and the Pats that I never like to talk about. Craig Horlbeck is here, too. Let's talk football.

[Jacoby]

All right.

[Bill Simmons]

There's no reason for this. We just turned the mics on.

[Jacoby]

Come on.

[Bill Simmons]

Sal brought up last night on the podcast about whether if you were Granted, it's. It's like a generic talk show segment, but I really. It really got my brain turning about Josh Allen versus Mahomes. Mahomes. The resume versus what we're actually watching week to week, game to game. Like, the shit that he's doing. The shit when they're down 35 to 13 against the Rams and you're just, like, not turning this off. No, I feel like Josh can bring this back. You've been on the Bills thing forever.

[Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So is anything different this year? Or is. Are the. Are the toys better for him? Is it just the experience? What is it? What's different between the ears?

[Jacoby]

It's, like, the happiest he's ever been in his life. And I mean, like, in all different ways.

[Kyle Brandt]

Is that a Stefon Diggs subtweet?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

A little bit, yeah.

[Jacoby]

It's funny to think about. Like, can you even remember the last Bills loss? It's been so long before the Rams game? Yeah, they lost to the Texans that night, and the take was like, wow, Diggs got over on the Bills, and there was this viral moment of Diggs, like, side eyeing him. And we haven't heard from Diggs since he got hurt. And Allen's taking over the world, but loves his offensive coordinator. Never more comfortable. Loves the guys in the room. And I don't think this is irrelevant. Like. Like, he's engaged to a movie star and a pop star, and his personal life is out of control. Like, over the hill, over the moon. Amazing. And he has a good run game and a good offensive line. Like, what do you want as a quarterback? My line's awesome. My running backs are awesome. I have, like, a really cool girl that I'm with. And, like, my receivers are cool guys. And I know they're not Calvin Johnson, but, like, they make plays for me. I think he's so happy and so confident. I think it's great.

[Kyle Brandt]

Yeah. We joked last week on the fantasy pod that last week was Josh Allen's apex mountain. Right. Engaged to Hailee Steinfeld, had the big night game, whole thing. Literally a week later. A week later, he already beat it, even though he lost to the Rams. I would say his now, this is his Apex mountain. He had the greatest day in fantasy football history. Basically 52 points, and he locked up the MVP.

[Bill Simmons]

You think it's done?

[Jacoby]

Yeah, I think he did. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I can't count out Lamar yet for some reason, but I think it's like Fanduel would say it's done. It's like he's like a minus 500.

[Jacoby]

FanDuel in a regular year. Lamar still a month. There's Lamar fatigue. He's already got it a couple times. And listen, I want Saquon to win a bat. It'd just be cool. He would have to have the perfect campaign. Like, he'd have to break the Dickerson record. He'd have to have the touchdown, everything. Allen just took it away.

[Kyle Brandt]

I'm not sure it can be Saquon.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, really?

[Kyle Brandt]

It's hard. Two years ago, the Eagles made the super bowl with Miles Sanders.

[Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Kyle Brandt]

And so it's like, I just.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm out. I did this last week. I'm out on the Saquon. I just think, like, I want it to.

[Kyle Brandt]

It would be cool, but I don't think they can do it.

[Bill Simmons]

This is the dumbest way to think about it, but I also think it's the best way to think about it. When somebody gets hurt, what happens to the line? Like, if Josh Allen got hurt, the Bills line moves by nine points. If Barkley gets hurt, the Eagles line moves by, like, two and a half points again.

[Kyle Brandt]

They were, like, the best team in the league with Miles Sanders two years.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. So that's what I hate, that it has to be a quarterback pretty much every year. Unless the guy's having the most amazing season ever or there's no, like, awesome quarterback. But for the most part, this is the most. It's like saying, like, no, the pilot's not the MVP of this airplane. It's actually the third flight attendant got those peanuts.

[Kyle Brandt]

She's killing it.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like, you know who's the mvp? The fucking pilot. Cause we're crashing if the pilot doesn't make out.

[Jacoby]

But I think as the Allen thing, especially as it pertains to Mahome, my concern is that that Rams game, 20 years from now, when, like, you tell your kids, your grandkids about Josh Allen, like, that's the Josh Allen experience. He's unbelievably cool. Superhero, action star. And the Bills lose, right?

[Bill Simmons]

And they have the dopey play with the QB sneak where they wasted time out.

[Jacoby]

Is that this era?

[Bill Simmons]

What are you doing?

[Jacoby]

Like, is he. I just worry that he's like Dominique Wilkins or something. Like just so awesome. Incredible talent. What did it amount to? He's even said it. He's like, he said it. I'm sick of winning T shirts. He has a whole stack of T shirts that are like division champ T shirts. And he's like, I want to get them out of my closet. I don't want these anymore. That's what he's known for at this point. Because if they lose in the playoffs, if they lose in the playoff this year to the Chiefs. What do you think? If you're a Bills fan, like, this Chiefs team sucks. We can't even beat this one.

[Bill Simmons]

It's right.

[Jacoby]

It's a big playoff game.

[Bill Simmons]

That's why it'll be the Steelers. That they lose too.

[Jacoby]

It might be. I know you're big on the Steelers right now.

[Bill Simmons]

I am, I am stunned that the Steelers have not gotten more credit this year. I don't get it. I don't know what else they have to do.

[Kyle Brandt]

I'm holding my breath a little bit. They have a really crazy Taylors fan. I'm a Steeler fan.

[Bill Simmons]

Super careful.

[Kyle Brandt]

This is a tough four game stretch they're heading into and it's been pretty easy the last four weeks. Now they're Eagles, Chiefs, Bengals, Bengals. No, Eagles, Chiefs, Bengals. It's a tough stretch.

[Bill Simmons]

They're playing Christmas night too. Yeah. The Josh thing, the way you laid it out really makes me think of Peyton Manning. First half of the 2000s, where he had reached this point where he was the best regular season quarterback. He was the guy you would take first in fantasy, all that stuff, but you never felt like he was actually going to win. And then they end up winning in 06, partly because the Pats choked away a 21 to 3 halftime in the dome.

[Jacoby]

Marlon Jackson interception sealed it and was like, holy shit, they beat Brady. And this is my test for the Chiefs right now. Out. So we're picking away at all of them and they barely win and all their numbers are terrible and the offense, like looks legitimately bad except for one drive every game. Let's say they get the one seed. They get the buy the division run. You're watching on your couch. And the Chiefs lose to Pittsburgh or Baltimore or Houston or somebody like that. Are you surprised? Because I'm shocked. I, I, I, I'll fall off my chair if they lose the divisional round. Even as bad as they've been. That's my respect for them.

[Kyle Brandt]

I agree completely.

[Jacoby]

It's everywhere.

[Kyle Brandt]

I'd be shocked if the Chiefs lost. I was like, oh, you know, if the Bills play the Chiefs again in the playoffs, this is what we see every year. The Bills beat Mahomes in the regular season, Mahomes beats Allen in the playoffs. It's the same thing every single year.

[Bill Simmons]

The problem for the Chiefs is sometimes you can pass the point of no return with weapons because. And I said this last night in the pod, like, this did happen to Brady a couple of times where like 06. He was awesome. And we just had nobody. We had Lawrence Moroni and starting running back and Rache Caldwell and Jabbar Gaffney and Ben Watson and it's like we just didn't have enough weapons. When we needed third downs, there wasn't that one guy to get open. There wasn't that awesome running back. I don't think the Chiefs weapons are that bad, but there's been some Brady seasons where he was better than the team. And I wonder with Mahomes this year. I thought he took a lot of hits on Sunday night.

[Kyle Brandt]

It's so weird. I feel like last year was the year the Chiefs were supposed to lose. And then the criticisms would come. What did they go? 11 and 6. And it was like, yeah, you know, this is what we were saying. You can't do this again. Not with these weapons.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Jacoby]

The Raiders killed them on Christmas.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes.

[Kyle Brandt]

It was like a super weird.

[Bill Simmons]

Should they have lost and Allen missed that one third of Diggs. There was one other play. Like, if you really watch that game closely, it was kind of amazing. The Bills didn't win that game.

[Kyle Brandt]

Yeah. I don't think anybody knows what to do now. Now that they come out of this weird 11, 6 year where they shouldn't have won the super bowl, but they did. And now they're 12 and one and they've won 16 straight games that were one score. Yeah, it's the most improbable run. I mean, can you think of anything like this in the last 20, 30 years in the NFL?

[Bill Simmons]

No, there. There were some weird Patriot years wondering, like, how we were doing it week after week. But this is different because they're almost adding this degree of difficulty to the wins. And I. I'm not a lucky person with football. I don't. I've never really bought into that. Cause clearly they're good. Clearly. Like the plays that he was making yesterday, especially in the last drive, that third and 15 was crazy, right? The third and seven, you know he's going to get it. So that. That's its own skill. I thought, what. What Concerned me, if I was them, was. Was the charges I thought were really physical with them in the second half in a way that I don't remember seeing with the Chiefs. Yes, but you always felt like the Chiefs were going to lose. It was because they, you know, they dropped the Keith or down pass or something. I thought the Chargers were, like, pushing.

[Jacoby]

Them back without their best running back.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kyle Brandt]

Yeah.

[Jacoby]

I mean, the Chargers are built like.

[Bill Simmons]

Michigan and without their best receiver.

[Jacoby]

No, definitely. I think the Chargers are going to win a playoff game. I like them still. I'm not jumping ship on the Chargers. Without the best receiver, without the best running. They play great defense.

[Bill Simmons]

So they'll be a six seed, right? They'll be whatever behind Baltimore, Pittsburgh. But six seed would put them probably against either Buffalo or Pittsburgh.

[Jacoby]

Yeah, And I don't like that match. I don't like the Chargers. But the distinction, I think with the Chiefs weapons, it's like. Like, I think there's having players that are just kind of average, but then there's having players who are just kind of average the way they're playing, who are made. Guys like John Deere, Hopkins and Kelce, even Juju. Those are guys who have been around, who've been in playoff games, who've won. Those are the guys who are like, oh, shit, we turned on the division around. Kelce had nine catches and two touchdowns. They've done it. It's not average players who just suck and have never done it. These guys are all a friend of ours. You know what I mean? They can turn it on.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, that's why they'll win. That's why I'm so cautious with the Chiefs because of the. Kelsey keeping him in the garage with the tarpon thing. Yeah, like, they're just clearly doing that.

[Jacoby]

Yeah, I.

[Bill Simmons]

We didn't see him for two hours in the game yesterday. And, you know, in fantasy, like, people are still paying for him in fantasy.

[Kyle Brandt]

Yeah. He was still fringe. First guy who went off the board in drafts. It was like him in Laporta.

[Bill Simmons]

But then you watch Bowers, although Tampa was able to take him out a little yesterday. And Bowers is just like Gronk crossed with Kelsey, crossed with like a sports movie.

[Kyle Brandt]

Tight end, easily number one.

[Bill Simmons]

He's open all the times. He's just crushing everybody. And Kelsey could probably do that in January and round two, but I don't think they're using that skill now. So I don't know if I had to rank them. I honestly think Pittsburgh's the safest bet out of the three because of the defense more than Buffalo. Yeah.

[Jacoby]

Yeah. Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

I think they could beat Buffalo in Buffalo because they can get some explosive plays, but I think Buffalo has a better chance of beating KC because the thing with Casey that I can't wrap. I feel like if you can get 24 and up on them points wise, you're probably beating them. Right. Buffalo beat them 30, 21.

[Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But Pittsburgh's more likely to play the 18 to 16, 19 to 16 type Kansas City game, which is better for KC so I do feel like there's some rock, paper, scissors.

[Kyle Brandt]

Yeah. I think Arthur Smith and Russ are really starting to work well, especially last week without picking, which I do think Tomlin held Pickens. I think Pickens could have played in that game, and I think they knew they had this gauntlet coming up. They held him against the Browns.

[Bill Simmons]

I 100% agree.

[Kyle Brandt]

They were at home. I think that was a very smart move.

[Bill Simmons]

They knew that could be Jameis.

[Kyle Brandt]

There were more open guys in that game than there have been all season for Pittsburgh. So I do think Arthur Smith and Russ are really starting to gel. I just worry that in January, they're in Buffalo. They need to score 35 to beat the Bills. They're doing too high. They're taking off all the top end stuff for Russ. You really got to rely on, like, Najee Harris having a good game, running the ball, and then if it's not Pickens, it gets real thin real quick. I'm a little worried. I almost wonder if, like, they could muck it up with the Chiefs and win a game like 1917.

[Bill Simmons]

That's where I feel, yeah, but Kyle knows the way to beat the Bills is what the Rams did yesterday. You're just bleak. Five yard run out of nowhere. Four yard run. Seven yard run. Seven yard pass. Three yard run, five yard.

[Kyle Brandt]

You had Staffordshire.

[Bill Simmons]

You had chipping away, chipping away, chipping away.

[Jacoby]

Lock a punt. You get it. Like, you have to play.

[Kyle Brandt]

Yeah. Big defensive play.

[Jacoby]

And then.

[Bill Simmons]

Jesus Christ.

[Jacoby]

Nakua and Cooper were just doing anything they wanted.

[Bill Simmons]

They looked bad.

[Kyle Brandt]

I mean, Stafford, Nakua and Puka is like the highest degree of difficulty offense in the league. Like, it is so hard, but they do it because they're so good. And I'm like, I don't. I will.

[Bill Simmons]

But what did they run for the running game, I thought was the most interesting part of that, because they didn't Buffalo. I wouldn't say they're like a giant defense.

[Jacoby]

No, not really.

[Bill Simmons]

Feels like you can push it backwards.

[Jacoby]

They thought that. Okay, so Matt Milano's back now. Like, he was their heart and soul of their defense. He's back there going to stop it. And Terrell Bernard's amazing in the middle, but like, they did this Blake Corum thing that we haven't seen a lot of them this year. And then obviously, Kyron. I have a little bit of a spicy take on the Bills Rams. Thing is, I actually think that loss was good for the Bills and I'll tell you why. Like, everybody was just on their nuts across the whole country because they did a lateral play and they won in the snow. And they're the best team ever. They go across the country, they get their ass whipped a little bit. Now they play the Lions, which is one of the biggest games of the regular season. I think they need to have their shit humbled a little bit. Just a little bit. They were such a darling for about three or four days and then they weren't that good. And I think that get that loss out of the way now maybe and have a little bit of a wake up call. I actually was not shocked that they lost that game because McVay is amazing. And when cup and Nukua are out there for the Rams this year, The Rams are 6 and 2. Like, they're a very, very good team. And their defense is like, super young. Super. Doesn't give a crap. I'll hit Josh Allen late, talk shit to him, don't care like the Rams are. If I had to pick a team that holy shit, a team is in the Super Bowl, I'd pick the Rams as like the holy shit team.

[Bill Simmons]

Your holy shit team.

[Jacoby]

My holy shit team is the Rams. Like, that is a dark horse, Cinderella, all that. Like, they have the quarterback. I think they have the best coach in football. And they have this crazy young defense who doesn't know they're not supposed to be that good yet. They're my holy shit super bowl team.

[Bill Simmons]

I think the holy shit team has to be afc.

[Jacoby]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Just for me. But I like that pick. But I think, like, the Chargers would.

[Jacoby]

Be a holy shit.

[Bill Simmons]

I just think that Detroit Philly talent, pedigree, it's good. Is going to be really. Especially if you have to go into Detroit Round two, round three and try to take those guys. Whereas the afc, I don't really love any team. And I, I feel the best about Pittsburgh. I certainly wouldn't feel like, awesome about Russell Wilson winning three straight playoff games, you know. Yeah.

[Kyle Brandt]

And if this is the year to.

[Bill Simmons]

Go against my holy shit playoff team would actually be the Chargers because I'm.

[Jacoby]

With you on that.

[Bill Simmons]

They can block and they can chase the passer. And once we get into January, if you can just do those two things, make a couple plays, not turn the ball over and win a couple ugly games. That's what the Chiefs did last year. You know, I was really impressed by their mystery.

[Jacoby]

I think they're the Chargers and a loss.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought they, I thought they really handled the Chiefs defensive line. I was surprised. And like Herbert misses wide open.

[Jacoby]

Touchdown.

[Bill Simmons]

Right Palmer?

[Kyle Brandt]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He missed another guy like 35 yards down the field. Their running backs are among the worst in the league without Dobbins.

[Kyle Brandt]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Gus Edwards and Vidal, like, come on.

[Kyle Brandt]

They'Re overachieving this year. Like it's impressive already what Harbaugh has done. He's amazing.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kyle Brandt]

This was supposed to be kind of like, all right, we'll get our lineman, we build from the inside out, see what we got. We'll see what we have in lad McConkey. He's already one of the better rookie wide receivers in the league.

[Bill Simmons]

You know what's funny? We talk about football all the time and we always look for these angles on what makes the team special, who's going to be the sleeper. This was the first year where I was like, all I care about are coaches and QBs.

[Jacoby]

Smart.

[Bill Simmons]

I did all my over unders and I was like, if you have a coach or a qb, like I'm not even worried that the Chargers don't have receivers. I'm going over. I'm picking them to make the playoffs. They have Harbaugh and Herbert.

[Jacoby]

Doesn't matter.

[Bill Simmons]

That should be enough. Whereas like flip side, I don't know Vegas, I don't understand their quarterback situation at all. I don't know where we're getting from the end. I'm out. And I wonder sometimes, is football just that simple? Is it all about the QB and the coach and the rest of it is like periphery.

[Kyle Brandt]

Yeah. In retrospect, looking at Rodgers and Salah, it's like I, you know, not that I like Robert Salt.

[Jacoby]

Are you big on them?

[Kyle Brandt]

Yeah, I think a lot of people was a little bit.

[Bill Simmons]

That was my big mistake. I had the jets over Buffalo in the division. That was my biggest regret.

[Kyle Brandt]

But my biggest.

[Bill Simmons]

Rogers is washed. Like he's, you know. If you knew it was going to be the 41 year old wash Rogers, I wouldn't have picked that.

[Kyle Brandt]

I know. My big thing in fantasy this year was like try to eliminate as much randomness as you can. Like only bet on things that you can depend on. That you know are going to happen pitching quarterback. And then I just was completely blind to the jets. Like a 40 year old quarterback coming off a torn Achilles. I just miss.

[Bill Simmons]

I got so deceived by all the Buffalo dead cap space stuff and transition year. I just, they. They snookered me.

[Jacoby]

I think they snookered themselves. I don't even know if they expected this. Yeah, I really do think it was all right. This would be a year and we'll lose in the wild card or whatever, but just Allen's been that good and defense has been that good. Can I give you like a surprise disgruntled team right now? Yeah, I'm kind of with you. Like, I have a couple friends and they're Philly guys and they're like beside themselves right now. They hate this team. They're like, we're going to lose. We're going to go one and done. They're panicking.

[Bill Simmons]

But like six days ago, everybody was thinking, Detroit's defense is so banged up. Philly. The season parted for Philly. That's how I was feeling.

[Jacoby]

The Eagles have won nine in a row.

[Steve Cerruti]

Yeah.

[Jacoby]

And they're like, nope, Hertz doesn't have it. There's not. Their kicker keeps missing. That freaks people out. He can't make one from 50 plus. He hasn't made one all year. After this game, this last game, the problem is, all right, they barely beat the Panthers and people have to update their expectations of the Panthers. The Panthers aren't the Panthers of September. They're actually kind of good.

[Bill Simmons]

They're frisky.

[Jacoby]

Like they almost beat the Chiefs. Yeah, they're exactly frisky.

[Bill Simmons]

They did a. They had a 98 yard drive almost to win a game with three minutes left.

[Kyle Brandt]

I mean, Bryce Young won that game. Leggette dropped it.

[Bill Simmons]

I know.

[Jacoby]

And so Eagles fans are like, we saw, like, first of all, the Panthers are pretty good. But then right after the game, AJ Brown, after a win, the ninth in a row, they're like, aj, what do you think you need to work on? He's passing. You gotta get better at passing. Jesus, A.J. you've won nine in a. Like, there's some issues with Hertz and I think there's. Eagles fans still don't totally believe in him. Just my friends. I think he's a really good player. But there's my friends and I think also.

[Bill Simmons]

And they don't really believe in Sirianni either. Right.

[Jacoby]

Definitely not coaching quarterback. And also I think AJ Brown is like tired of the Saquon shit. Like, we pass the Ball the least in the whole team. They're. They're ranked last in the league in pass attempts. They run it. They have an MVP running back. I don't know if he's liking that either.

[Bill Simmons]

This reminds me of I was talking to an mb.

[Jacoby]

There's nine in a row they've won. And they're like, they're so. They're pissed.

[Kyle Brandt]

Are they waiting for the collapse? Because, remember, the Eagles were like 101 last year, but it was the weirdest super bowl hangover where everybody was miserable. But they were 10 1.

[Jacoby]

No, they're supposed to be good. Their defense is awesome.

[Kyle Brandt]

It's amazing. They retooled immediately.

[Bill Simmons]

This was a theory. I heard about the Nuggets. You made me think of about, like, AJ Brown being pissed. Yeah, like that. It was like, why isn't Jamal Murray playing better? It's like, Cause Jokic does everything this person I know was saying. How NBA. It was just a theory. It's like those guys are tired of just being like, Jokic's towel boys. And everything's Jokic. Jokic. Jok is. Oh, what a miracle it must be to play with Jokic. Oh, he gets all the stats. And like Jamal Murray, Michael Porter Jr. Where's mine? I want you too. Because they already won a title.

[Jacoby]

So A.J. brown's like, enough with the backwards hurdle. We get it. Enough with the Saquon shit.

[Bill Simmons]

Enough with the tush pass.

[Kyle Brandt]

I don't know, it's probably easier when the star is the quarterback. When it's the running back, it probably rubs AJ Brown the wrong way. He's like, I'm just as good as that guy. Look, I can't play quarterback. But it's a running back. Really.

[Jacoby]

It's true.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, counter. Is there a wide receiver who's gruntled? I know we have a lot of disgruntled receivers. Do we have gruntled receivers?

[Jacoby]

Jefferson always seems pretty gruntled, even when he wasn't putting up numbers.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he seemed happy for Addison.

[Jacoby]

Huge contract, huge plays indoors. Like everybody loves him. I think Jefferson's gruntled.

[Bill Simmons]

This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. It's football season and Uber Eats is dropping undefeated deals on all your game day favorites. This week's score. Buy one, get one free six piece boneless wings from Buffalo Wild Wings now on UberEats. And if you're craving even more, we've got you covered with game game deals on pizza, burgers, tacos and more all season long. Uber Eats official on demand food delivery partner of the NFL. Order now for game day, terms, taxes and fees apply. See app for details. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. As a small business owner, every new hire added to your team needs to make an immediate impact. Think of C.J. stroud in his rookie year, how he transformed the Texans. With limited hiring resources, you don't have the luxury of getting it wrong. You need to feel confident that your candidate is going to perform when the game is on the line. With LinkedIn jobs, you can. As the world's largest professional network, LinkedIn gives you access to more than a billion professionals with the unique skills and experience you need. Chances are your next standout star is one of them. A qualified candidate ready to put in the work that makes an immediate impact on your business. On LinkedIn, 86% of small businesses get a qualified candidate within 24 hours. So hire professionals like a professional on LinkedIn, tire the right person for your role, and post your job for free. Go to LinkedIn.com Simmons that's LinkedIn.com Simmons to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. Do you buy Minnesota yet? I know that's been a we we for three months. All of us who do podcasts and content, we're all just assuming this was your classic Viking season. The stats say they should have been 9 and 8, and they went 14 3.

[Jacoby]

But every week, let's have a Sam Darnold conversation. It's nuts. So my background on Sam Darnold is okay. Was supposed to be the number one overall pick, fell a little bit. Baker rises up and steal it. From that point, every single coach slash guru, all the McVays and Shanahans and, like, Jordan Palmer types, they all swear that Sam's the man. Oh, Darnold's incredible. Darnold's got it. And as a fan, you're like, he mostly sucks every time we see him. It just feels like when someone keeps recommending this show. You gotta watch this show. It's so good. It's so good. And you're like, it's not that good. They're like, watch another episode.

[Bill Simmons]

I promise.

[Kyle Brandt]

Watch another episode. That was Schitt's Creek for me.

[Jacoby]

Yeah, keep.

[Steve Cerruti]

You know, you gotta watch.

[Jacoby]

I'm like, dude, I'm on three seasons in. I don't like the show.

[Kyle Brandt]

It's a sitcom. Yeah.

[Jacoby]

The show is finally amazing. And all those coaches were like, he's amazing. And yet they may just cut bait with him this year.

[Kyle Brandt]

Well, I was gonna ask.

[Jacoby]

It says, I don't know, what do.

[Kyle Brandt]

They have to do in the Playoffs where it becomes a problem for the Minnesota front office, thinking, well, now what I said to Sal Championship. What happens now?

[Bill Simmons]

I said to Sal on Sunday's pot. I don't know how they let him go at this point. Like when you have a quarterback that you're built, your team's built around these two awesome receivers that you have, right?

[Jacoby]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

You have a quarterback who's clearly clicking with them in a real way, who's made big plays over and over again down the stretch. Why do I have to start J.J. mcCarthy next year? Why can't I just trade J.J. mcCarthy? He's the eighth. He was seventh or eighth pick. What was his seventh, seventh pick.

[Jacoby]

I don't know where he was top 10.

[Bill Simmons]

I know he's coming off a torn ACL.

[Jacoby]

But you loved him.

[Bill Simmons]

But you think like I'm trading him for a high second and I get to pay Sam Darnold. I think with Sal and I went through all the teams that need quarterbacks, there's probably four legitimate, plus maybe Seattle if they don't pay Gino, maybe Purdy.

[Jacoby]

Sure.

[Bill Simmons]

Six total.

[Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I just think if I'm Vegas, I'm paying them.

[Kyle Brandt]

They're like the anti Chiefs because no matter how bad the Chiefs look, I think to myself, I'm still going to bet on the homes.

[Jacoby]

No matter how good the Vikings look.

[Kyle Brandt]

Doesn't matter how good the Vikings look. I'm like, hey, in the playoffs I'm going to bet against him.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, we did million dollar picks Thursday and the House was like imploring me to put the Vikings in a parlay and I was just like, it looks too easy. Something's wrong. I don't make me nervous. Nobody likes Cousins and we ended up doing it. And Falcons scored seven. Nothing. And I'm texting House like, motherfucker, why did I listen to you? Fucking dick.

[Jacoby]

They were good early. Listen, same organization, Vikings a few years back. They're in the NFC title game. Their quarterback is Case Keenum.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Jacoby]

Killing it, making miracles to Stefan Diggs, like, oh my God, Keenum. Yeah, Moved on, went to Cousins. It was the right move.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but here's the difference with Darnold, if you're just talking about what if I have a franchise quarterback, what do I want? Do I want size? Well, he has that escapability. He has that cannon arm has that. Is he pretty good down the stretch or when you need him to make some plays? He's done that all year.

[Jacoby]

Also. He doesn't say shit. He's like a model citizen. Great reputation.

[Bill Simmons]

Teammates like him. Yeah, I don't know what he's missing. I watch quarterbacks for 10 to 11 hours every Sunday and most of them are bad and he's actually pretty good.

[Jacoby]

The take is very insulting to him. Here's the take, okay. You have Jefferson and Addison and Aaron Jones and Hawkinson and Koc is your coach. Of course you're succeeding, right?

[Bill Simmons]

It's the Brock Purdy.

[Jacoby]

We put somebody in there. It's the Brock Purdy.

[Kyle Brandt]

And you know how it's going to go because when he leaves and signs a four year, 160 million Daniel Jones contract somewhere else, he's not going to be good because it's the Kevin O'Connell system of making Josh Dobbs good for three weeks. And it seems like Kevin O'Connell is like the guru quarterback whisper now. And I just know Darnold is going to go sign a deal with like God forbid, the Giants or something and be terrible. It's going to happen.

[Jacoby]

And we've seen Cousins won 111 as the Vikings quarterback and they won every. And they get to the play and they lost to Daniel Jones. So that's part of the reason why everyone's like, I don't know, Darnold. I feel like we've seen the, seen this shit before. That's why you're saying no matter how much they win, you don't believe in them. Because they could, we could look up and they lose in the wild card round. Like what was.

[Bill Simmons]

We said this about Baker last year and then they signed him and he's been good this year.

[Jacoby]

That's true.

[Bill Simmons]

The best thing with Darnold is how young he is. What does he look like? 27. Right. So, yeah, I, if I were them, I would try to sign him for like 100, for four years, something like that. Try to get him like 25 a year and then try to trade JJ McCarthy. But supposedly he hurt his ACL again, so maybe he doesn't even have the same. I just, that to me that feels like the disaster is like, we had this guy, now we let him go because JJ's ready. And then what if JJ's not good and those receivers are like, what the fuck?

[Kyle Brandt]

Imagine the other way though. They trade their top 10 pick, JJ McCarthy, who goes off and has a great career, and then next year Sam Darnold turns back into a pumpkin and it's like one of the worst front office moves of all time.

[Jacoby]

Yeah. To your point though, let's say the Vikings are like, we love Sam, but we have a very Bright future for jj. We want to be in. Benjamin, what is the line that the Vikings get to where they're like, well, we're in the Super Bowl. We can't get rid of Sam Darnold now do they have to win it? I think if you. I think you have to get to the super bowl because already Case Keenan was in the title game with him. They've already been that a few years ago. I think if he gets to the super bowl, it's, I guess you're coming back.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, as a fan, I was in a situation once with a guy by the name of Tom Brady in 2001. Blitzo gets hurt, Brady keeps his job and we're kind of like, is he going to be the starter? And we'll be like, oh, we'll see what happens. And all of a sudden he won the Super Bomb.

[Kyle Brandt]

This is the first.

[Bill Simmons]

He's getting traded.

[Kyle Brandt]

The first Tom Brady, Sam Darnold compared.

[Bill Simmons]

I just. You never know.

[Jacoby]

I like it.

[Bill Simmons]

The thing is Detroit, Detroit's defense mess. And I don't see how it really gets better. Right. So at least there's a little bit of a hole there. Philly has all the chemistry stuff. Green Bay, I'm not sure I trust Jordan Love and just in general, I wouldn't pencil them in. Like Minnesota can play with all of these teams.

[Jacoby]

Those three teams in the north, they're 28 and three. Outside of the north, they beat everybody. Like those teams are up there.

[Bill Simmons]

They might be the three best teams of the league.

[Jacoby]

They're up there. Yeah, I think they have. They're all top five teams. Who knows they're 28 and three when they're not playing each other. So they kick the shit out of everybody. I think the Lions defense reputation is down right now because what we just saw, I think they'll be better. I think they'll be back. I still think they're going to win the Super Bowl. I still think it's the Lions.

[Bill Simmons]

I would at gunpoint pick them as well, but I don't feel great about it.

[Jacoby]

Maybe Pittsburgh, you think maybe or Chiefs.

[Bill Simmons]

No, I would still. Life depends on it. I'm still doing Lions, kc. But I just think right now, mid December. Is it mid December?

[Jacoby]

It is.

[Kyle Brandt]

Well, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I think Pittsburgh is the most complete all around team right now. I don't know what that's going to mean.

[Jacoby]

Where are you at with Russ? Isn't this weird for you to be saying that?

[Bill Simmons]

Russ? Every fucking week Russ makes three 40 yard plays or gets a pass interference. There's a play that moves the ball 35 to 50 yards three times a game with him and it happens every single week. And at some point that's what they do.

[Kyle Brandt]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Whereas the Chiefs get none of those plays. The Chiefs had one 30 yard play to Hopkins and he dropped it and it seemed like a miracle that they almost completed.

[Kyle Brandt]

Russ is cocky right now. He's doing this like, you know he does.

[Bill Simmons]

He's talking a lot of shots.

[Kyle Brandt]

He gets down on one knee and like points to the side. Has he always done that or is that a new.

[Jacoby]

Never saw it.

[Kyle Brandt]

Yeah, he unveiled.

[Bill Simmons]

He does a lot of like running over to the sideline and barking at the OC and shit like that.

[Jacoby]

Have you. Have you done the Russ pop culture comp? Like what this is. Because like I was doing it the other day with Peter. I think it's Travolta and the comeback. Seattle was all of the 70s and 80s and he's a superstar. He's the coolest rock star ever. Denver was. Look who's talking. It's pathetic. And then like 4 and 2. Mike Tomlin put him in and it was his Pulp Fiction and like he's like the coolest guy ever now and can't miss. It's an amazing.

[Bill Simmons]

I would go Lady Gaga.

[Jacoby]

You go Lady Gaga.

[Kyle Brandt]

What?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Really strong start. Considered a diva pretty early on. Did some good stuff. Faded a little bit. And then a star is born. Was her Pittsburgh.

[Jacoby]

That's the 4 and 2 Pittsburgh.

[Kyle Brandt]

But then is it going to end with Joker 2? That would be a bummer.

[Jacoby]

Oh, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Craig, you should have bring the house down next year. But I mean, you root for Russ every week. Yeah, he's surprisingly good. There's just no other way to say it. He's been doing this now for two and a half months.

[Kyle Brandt]

I'm enjoying it one week over and.

[Bill Simmons]

Over and over again.

[Kyle Brandt]

I'm not looking ahead. I'm not looking into the future. I'm just. Every week I'm having a good time.

[Bill Simmons]

Time. And.

[Jacoby]

And I always would think that Tomlin wouldn't be here for the Russ theatrics that we used to see.

[Kyle Brandt]

Tomlin's good at.

[Jacoby]

So affected. Like, I guess he likes weird problems.

[Bill Simmons]

Tomlin likes weird. Yeah. I mean, he works with Pickens. Who's ready to start?

[Jacoby]

Pickens. Antonio, Giant fight at the end of every game. Pickens is great.

[Bill Simmons]

The. The other thing with Pittsburgh, their kicker. Is there another kicker you feel better about during any playoff game in bad weather than Boswell? He's like the New Tucker, like he lined up like a 54 yarder yesterday. He's making that.

[Kyle Brandt]

He's been that guy. He's been the best offensive player in the Steelers for the last five years. I think he leads the league in points.

[Bill Simmons]

Tomlin Boswell, like, I can't find the holes. It's really like, who's going to be that second receiver on third and nine? But Mike Williams had a couple good plays yesterday.

[Kyle Brandt]

Yeah.

[Jacoby]

And Friarmuth is like, they're really good. They're amazing team. Is it like the rusting? You see comebacks, like, they suck. You never see when someone's a superstar, then sucks. And then as a superstar again. The only ones I can think of are Kurt Warner, who went St. Louis, right with Arizona. And then the Giants who was like just weird. And then Arizona to the super bowl again. And then even a slightly less version of that. Carson Palmer was with the Bengals. He was with the Raiders and I don't even remember that. And then he was with Arizona and was also in a title game. But the good shit and then good again is really hard to play.

[Bill Simmons]

It especially happens with quarterbacks. Cause it feels like. Like the wrong offensive line, the wrong coach, the wrong team, and they could just get the shit kicked out of them for two years and just completely lose their confidence. Right.

[Kyle Brandt]

It's funny. Russ has never been paid the right amount based on what his talent is at the moment. Like when he was on Seattle, when he first got drafted, he kind of like started that model thing. He was making like 700 grand a year and leading them to Super Bowls. Then the Denver thing happens and he's making $43 million a year and he's terrible. And now he's a great again on Pittsburgh, making $1 million a year. I know Denver's still paying him, but. And then he'll probably. I think the plan is. And I think this was what the Steelers envisioned the whole time. I think they are going to definitely resign, Russ.

[Bill Simmons]

No question. They just don't want to pay more than 10 to 12. I'm guessing they have a whole thing.

[Jacoby]

We also might get Pittsburgh, Denver in the playoffs. That'd be pretty fun.

[Bill Simmons]

You talked about the comeback though, with him and how unusual that is. The other thing that's unusual for me, I always feel like quarterbacks hit that point of no return. It just doesn't seem like they want to get hit anymore, which Rogers was clearly the last seven, eight weeks. It's like that guy doesn't want to get hit anymore. Roger Wilson last year to me, just seemed like he didn't want to get hit anymore. That's why when he's a free agent this, this summer, I was just like, well, who cares? The guy doesn't. You know, he's made enough money. He won a Super Bowl. He doesn't want it anymore. I know, but it seems like he's okay with getting hit again. So I don't know whether Tomlin. I just think Tomlin and Tom and Reed, to me, levitate over everybody else.

[Jacoby]

Coaches and quarterbacks when we do playoff picks to start the season. About four years ago, I learned this. I always picked Pittsburgh, no matter what, picked him this year to make the playoffs. And everyone's like, you're an idiot. They have no quarterback. I'm like, I know, but just always pick Pittsburgh. They get in the playoffs. Always. And I pick McVay now, too. Every year, the Rams just.

[Bill Simmons]

It's. That was another one. That was. That was another guy with the futures. I just did over on the Rams. I get that they only have seven players.

[Jacoby]

Doesn't matter. Just pick.

[Bill Simmons]

As long as they have the QB and two receivers, they can move the ball.

[Kyle Brandt]

Yeah. We always joke that McVay is the chef on chopped and he's making bolognese.

[Bill Simmons]

Out of mayonnaise and who's your holy shit team? I have the Chargers.

[Jacoby]

I have. Who did I say? The Rams.

[Bill Simmons]

You said the Rams.

[Jacoby]

Holy shit, this team is in the Super Bowl.

[Kyle Brandt]

Can I have the holy shit this team. There's no way this team is going to make the Super Bowl. And it's the Houston Texans.

[Jacoby]

You hate the Texans.

[Bill Simmons]

They're not good.

[Jacoby]

The Texans are definitely going to play a Saturday playoff game like they always do. And It'll be like 1:00 and it'll be.

[Bill Simmons]

Everyone's going to pick whoever the other team is.

[Jacoby]

Yes. Probably going to be the Chargers.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I think it's going to be like.

[Bill Simmons]

That Browns game last year. It's like Flacco.

[Kyle Brandt]

Yeah. Slowik, I think, is super overrated. I think Stroud's in his own head big brothering every quarterback at midfield, and it's completely failed on him.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Jacoby]

Stroud's had a tough second half of the season. Great guy.

[Bill Simmons]

I think the ringer fantasy show hates Stroud. Big brothering one of the most.

[Jacoby]

The Caleb moment.

[Kyle Brandt]

The Caleb moment.

[Bill Simmons]

He's done it multiple times. Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Who else did he do it?

[Bill Simmons]

He did it with Drake May, too.

[Kyle Brandt]

Yeah. Three straight weeks after the Caleb thing, and then he finally got off of it.

[Jacoby]

I missed the Drake May One.

[Kyle Brandt]

Yeah, it's been. He's been terrible.

[Bill Simmons]

He's weighing in with his big picture thoughts on everyone he plays against. And it's like, dude, you're in your second year. Settle down.

[Kyle Brandt]

Yeah, my. I might go with the Chargers as well, probably, I would say, just because of their ability to like, play cold weather. Herbert's so good. I. The only thing with Herbert is I'm worried that he's going to get hurt. Sometimes. Herbert is almost too good of a player. I kind of. I think he's kind of like the Puka Nakua of quarterbacks, where I'm like, you actually play the game with too much honor. You don't take. You don't go out of bounds ever. If there's a throw and Herbert needs to make it and he knows he's going to get drilled, like, he will get drilled to make the throw.

[Jacoby]

Put a huge hit on him and that Chiefs.

[Kyle Brandt]

Yeah, that leg hit. But he had to step in to make the throw. So they worry about that.

[Bill Simmons]

They're 8 and 5. Baltimore's 8 and 5, Denver's 8 and 5 for the 5, 6, 7. So the key for the Chargers would have to be to somehow get that 5 seed and try to play Houston. But I don't know how realistic that is with their schedule. But if they can somehow get. What do they have left?

[Jacoby]

That Houston is just dog shit on this.

[Bill Simmons]

Tampa, Denver home.

[Kyle Brandt]

Oh, another third and 10 in Houston.

[Bill Simmons]

Tampa, Denver at home for the Chargers, then at Pat's home, Vegas, like, they.

[Jacoby]

Could sweep that definitely.

[Bill Simmons]

And Baltimore, I think, is going to have a lot of trouble sweeping because they had that weird Christmas situation.

[Jacoby]

Isn't it crazy? We've talked to playoffs this long. We haven't even mentioned the Ravens. Like, they're blowing up.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, we know they're going to be there.

[Jacoby]

I know, but what are they going to do when they get there? Like, I don't have them in the Super Bowl. Does anybody that their stocks?

[Bill Simmons]

It's funny that people get mad about the January Lamar thing. It's like, okay, is it. When is it not going to ha. Like, it's just until he doesn't do the January Lamar thing. That's the way it is. The Raven fans are very touchy about it.

[Jacoby]

Lamar media is weird.

[Bill Simmons]

Tua media is the worst, though. The two of fan base. The two people who think he was good yesterday, he was 23 for 37, no picks. It's like, all right. I watched the game like, he had 10. Terrible. Like, stop.

[Jacoby]

I don't trust Tua Dolphins fans are frosty for sure.

[Kyle Brandt]

No the two when I think of a Tua play in my head it's Tyree Kill turning around to catch an under thrown defense.

[Bill Simmons]

Who's your fantasy MVP this year?

[Kyle Brandt]

Craig Fantasy mvp We all overthought Saquon so much. Him going in the second and Derek Henry. The two of them, both of them going in the second round. Everybody was afraid of the new the veteran on the new team thing.

[Bill Simmons]

Now it's going to go the other way. Everyone's going to overvalue it in next year's draft.

[Jacoby]

The new running back usual fantasy seasons in history because of what happened with McCaffrey that was so strange.

[Bill Simmons]

Well and Bree saw who just died.

[Kyle Brandt]

Of natural costumes Also just in general with fantasy this is the healthiest running back season outside of McCaffrey which that happened before the season kind of in season injuries for running backs. This has been the healthiest season in forever and I think there's definitely you know it was always get a wide receiver in the first round for the last five years. Next year it's going to swing way back. Everyone's going to be back in on getting all these running backs in the first round and it will probably regress back to the mean and like guys will start getting hurt again.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm in the camp of and I have I have three teams two that did badly and one that's doing well. But I just I just want to have good qb. That's all I care about. I feel like I can patch together everything else but like anyone who has Lamar or Josh Allen or burrow in any of these leagues you're just like fuck that guy's probably going to win.

[Jacoby]

That's why you play fantasy because of that Allen game against the Rams.

[Kyle Brandt]

Yeah, 100% just the key point is getting a guy who can move. I'm so done with pocket passers. I drafted Goff who's been good he's.

[Bill Simmons]

Been solid Strads like this too.

[Kyle Brandt]

Yeah so tough because you basically need 280 and three touchdowns that'll Goff every single week just for him to get.

[Bill Simmons]

By Lamar Josh Mahomes is turning into that too for different terrible as a.

[Jacoby]

Fantasy quarterback probably one of you can't start him.

[Kyle Brandt]

He's the biggest busted quarterback in fantasies.

[Bill Simmons]

Before we go New York because you're in New York Giants vs Jets which team is more down which franchise fan base is more down in the dumps right now between those two I think.

[Jacoby]

The jets fans are a little in shock Whereas the Giants fans are like, I don't know. Like, when I run into people on the street and they're like, oh, you're on the football show. And I go, yeah. And the thing I always say to them, wherever I am, I'm like, oh, who's your team? Cowboys? Texans? The Giants fans always go, eh, Giants? Like, they're so apologetic.

[Bill Simmons]

They've hit that point where they're apologizing. Oh, no.

[Jacoby]

Yeah. Like our show that we do on NFL network started in 2016. Every single year, the jets and Giants have sucked. They've always sucked. The only one that didn't suck was the Giants team when they went on the boat with the Odell thing. Like, that's the only.

[Bill Simmons]

What about the Danny Dimes playoff win in Minnesota?

[Kyle Brandt]

That was a fever dream.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but that was. They were like 9 and 8 that year.

[Jacoby]

Yeah, but so I think the Giants fans are like, we know we're terrible, and we're embarrassed. I think the jets fans were like. Like, they bought some lottery tickets, and before they won it, they, like, put a down payment on a mansion and a boat, and they're like, I'm gonna win this shit. And then match one number on their lottery ticket. And I think so. I think they're like, their mental health is in question, and they're in shock. Sucks.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. It's tough because the Red Sox fans used to be like this, too, before we won the World Series, where it's this rare combination of fatalism and thinking things aren't gonna go wrong. But then before the season, like, this crazy optimism. It's like, how are these two things the same? Where it's like, March, spring training in 2000, like, this is it.

[Jacoby]

Here we go.

[Bill Simmons]

This year.

[Jacoby]

Got a great rotation.

[Bill Simmons]

The Vegas, the odds for the Boston team, they could always put them down because they knew all these dumbasses would come from Massachusetts and bet it. And the jets were have those fans, too, that they actually think it's going to work out. And then there's people like fantasy who's like, this is going to be a beautiful disaster.

[Jacoby]

Well, Sean had the best tweet ever. The one he keeps retweeting about. It was the day that Jets Niners were going to play.

[Kyle Brandt]

I love it.

[Jacoby]

I just want to go on record. I think this will be a complete disaster. Everyone will be fired and Rodgers will retire, and he's probably going to be right. That, like, the jets season, it might.

[Bill Simmons]

Have been the last. Great tweet.

[Jacoby]

It was a great tweet. We talked about that on our show we even brought up Fantasy's tweet. But this season for the jets is not like a D or a D. It is an F. It is as bad as it could go short of like a tragedy happened off the field. Like it is an F. They basically.

[Bill Simmons]

Had what, seven one score games that they had the ball in the last three minutes but somehow didn't win any of them. I don't know how they fix it.

[Kyle Brandt]

Rogers tried his best. You know he has that doc coming out in two weeks. Yeah, you can see he was trying. He had his first 300 yard game as a Jet this week. He's on the press tour. He's trying to get get viewers now. What a 3 and 11 jets team.

[Bill Simmons]

We're going to watch the funniest thing. I watched that whole Jets Miami game because I had Miami in a parlay.

[Jacoby]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Miami was terrible. The whole game. Like they looked like they didn't want to be there. They looked like they were the team that was 3 and 10. Rogers looked good and the jets were like into it. They were trying to win. They were moving the ball, they. Their offense was better and somehow Miami still won the game. And it was basically because the jets as usual just fucked up completely with three minutes left. F. Pretty brutal.

[Jacoby]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

So what would you rate this season from A plus to F minus? What's the grade for the season so far through 14 weeks?

[Jacoby]

Oh, just as a whole.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, just as a whole. For content, storylines, excitement, everything.

[Jacoby]

I think it's like a B plus because we have just some really good teams. Like I mentioned, that thing in the NFC north is fun. That Bills Rams game we just watched was amazing. That Lions game against the packers was a 34 31. Like we've got some Rembrandts. We've got some. Like when you say what was the game of the year? We have like eight or nine games of the year. And I like that the quarterbacks aren't hurt. Like I.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Jacoby]

Like that's really what I care about. Allen's out there, Mahomes out there. Even burrow on a losing team. Like you get to watch those guys. You don't have to turn on the Thursday night or and It's Taylor Heinecke versus Mitch Trubisky.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean we did lose Aiden O'Connell.

[Jacoby]

We lost Aiden, but I heard it's not as bad as we thought. Maybe coming back.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe he'll be back.

[Kyle Brandt]

Preventative era cast for Aiden O'Connell. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you have for a grade?

[Kyle Brandt]

Probably A minus. See, I think it's been really fun. I mean, the Lions storyline is amazing. I feel like everybody in America wants the Lions to win a Super Bowl.

[Bill Simmons]

Also, they're the rare public team that's actually really fun to watch every week. I genuinely enjoy watching their offense. When Ja'marr Gibbs is in the game, I'm like, I don't even have him on a fantasy team. Jamar Gibbs is in.

[Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Kyle Brandt]

You feel like you do the golf storylines, you great. The weird 12 and 1 Chiefs is fun. Saquon going to the Eagles and then maybe breaking the rushing record is unbelievable. I think it's been really, really fun year.

[Bill Simmons]

I would be at an A minus, but the Drake May thing puts me at a solid A. I'm just out of my mind about how fun this Drake May thing's been. I can't believe he's this good already. I just can't believe it.

[Jacoby]

It is really cool.

[Bill Simmons]

It's crazy that he's this far along. And you know, I've had terrible quarterbacks and I've had the greatest quarterback ever. Like, and you just. I don't know if he's going to be even in the ballpark of somebody like Brady, but he's clearly a franchise guy. Like, worst case scenario, I feel like he could at least be like Herbert.

[Jacoby]

All you care about is you think you got a guy.

[Bill Simmons]

We have a guy who knows what a guy.

[Jacoby]

Well, I can't believe I did the B plus then without mentioning. I mean, I think, like, they are huge. There's two massive blemishes on the season. The jets just complete disaster. And the Bears, I mean, the Bears are massive disappointment from start to finish. If the jets are an F, the Bears are.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I thought that new coach. I thought you guys bumped back. Oh, no, that was the option.

[Jacoby]

You're supposed to get the bump. Like the Saints got the bump with that guy.

[Bill Simmons]

The clogger bumped you back.

[Jacoby]

That Niners Bears game, Tom Brown, maybe the worst game of the year. I mean, it was an unbelievably terrible, pathetic game.

[Bill Simmons]

I think that was the only pick I lost. And it was over five minutes into the game.

[Jacoby]

You thought the Bears were going to win?

[Bill Simmons]

I did. I was like, new coach Bump, definitely. They figured out Caleb just getting rid of the ball fast.

[Jacoby]

They were way worse than they were under Matt Eberfluss. So think about that. Like, they looked way worse. Like, they should have brought Eberfluss back. They would have had a better performance.

[Kyle Brandt]

Well, it's like Eberfluss leaves The defense probably gets worse. And then you promote the guy running the offense. So now you have a different person running the offense. It gets messy quick.

[Jacoby]

You did get suckered by that, though.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah.

[Jacoby]

The locker room was so excited about the new guy and they're going to be ready to play. They were so bad in that game.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, that was like when Antonio Pierce got the job and they were smoking cigars after the first win. And then within nine months, Devonte Adams is like, get me the fuck outta here.

[Jacoby]

I'm glad you brought that up. Better than the cigars because, like, I have landed on this take and I say it all. Never hire an interim coach. I don't care what happens. The interim coach is you get out of a miserable marriage, you're just so pissed, and there's so. And you like the next girlfriend you meet, you fucking marry her. You don't take her to Cabo. You marry her, it never works out. Have her fling.

[Kyle Brandt]

Do it.

[Jacoby]

Fine.

[Bill Simmons]

Don't. I mean, she made me. Tuna sack. You don't marry the rebound.

[Jacoby]

Watch the Saints win. A couple more games and they'll be like, I don't know, this Darren Rizzi gets them to compet. Pete, don't hire Darren Rizzi. Do respect.

[Bill Simmons]

The only interim coach who actually should have been hired was pit boss Rich. The Raiders guy.

[Kyle Brandt]

Oh, Tom Cable.

[Bill Simmons]

Rich Pursuccia, whatever. Versace. Yeah, Versace.

[Jacoby]

Special teams coach.

[Bill Simmons]

Pit boss Rich. He'd come in with like, all right, guys, I'll be back in 20.

[Jacoby]

Damn right. Changing out 200. Derek Carr. They were in the playoffs that day.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I like pit boss.

[Jacoby]

And then now he's the special teams coach again. But no, it's. Don't ever hire the interim coach. You're marrying the fling after the marriage. Terrible.

[Bill Simmons]

My dream is Drake May, year two. Yeah. Vrabel. Brian D. Ball, Offensive coordinator. Let's go.

[Jacoby]

Who do you.

[Kyle Brandt]

Do you want to receive?

[Jacoby]

He's not a head coach. Opening though, Bill. What are you talking about?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, there might be if we lose these last four games. The problem is we're going to go to Arizona, and he's probably going to throw for like360 and beat Arizona and then Mayo keep his job.

[Kyle Brandt]

Do you want a tackle or a wide receiver in the draft?

[Bill Simmons]

Thanks for asking because I've obviously studied a lot. My dad is now wading into the draft waters as well. Just finding out about this TMAC character, this wide receiver.

[Jacoby]

Sure.

[Bill Simmons]

It doesn't feel like they're going to be a top. They're going to Be a top five team. But there's no top five left tackle, which sets us up for the trade down. Which I'd feel great about if we had an owner that wasn't 83 years old and we had an actual GM and not an interim GM. But it feels like they have to trade back. I'm in the camp of I would take Hunter if we had the third pick. Really, if he's there, he just seems like he's going to be a superstar. I'm going to change my mind on this a hundred times. But, like, it just seems like sometimes these guys get in the draft and everybody's just like, that guy's special. And he just seems like that guy's special guy. You could have said this about Marvin Harrison last year, though, and he hasn't tried the be the best special. But there's no left tackle. This is the one draft where there's like no even like a Joe Alt.

[Kyle Brandt]

Yeah. Probably not one worthy of a top three pick. No.

[Bill Simmons]

Who's the defensive line guy? There's like an awesome, like defensive tackle. That's a. That's another one. Like, when is it goes wrong to have like an awesome defensive tackle.

[Jacoby]

Fine. Craig, have you had, have you had some takes on where Shadour is going to go?

[Kyle Brandt]

Because, I mean, he certainly feels like a Raider to me.

[Bill Simmons]

The Vegas, the father, son, Vegas thing.

[Kyle Brandt]

Feels like it's so raidersy.

[Jacoby]

What if the Giants get the number one pick because the worst fit of all time is the Mara family and the Sanders family? Not at all. But what if they get the number one pick and he's the guy? Raiders feels perfect. The Giants might get it, though.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, they almost screwed it up yesterday. And then the kick or miss, there.

[Kyle Brandt]

Was a conspiracy theory that Shador was tweeting. Thank you, Lord. Every time the Raiders lost because he wanted to go to the Raiders. It happened for 11 weeks. It was perfect. Even when they were on a buy. He didn't tweet it that week, but the Raiders, I think won. And then he tweeted it and so it turns out not true. But for there was a while there where I was like, Shador and Deion are angling to get to Vegas.

[Bill Simmons]

It is the most fun destination for those guys.

[Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Because the team's a disaster every year anyway, so we might as well have this.

[Jacoby]

And Bowers is sitting right there now like he's already has a stud. And like, let's just have a carnival at Dion. Make Deion the coach. Why not have Shadow be the quarterback? It'd be great content.

[Bill Simmons]

I had somebody who knows stuff tell me about the Pats. Like, if that job did become available, they were like, they said, you know, it's actually like a destination job now because of Drake May I was like, it's like, I need a cigarette.

[Jacoby]

Six to midnight, Bill, just give me a.

[Bill Simmons]

You have a lighter? I just need a cigarette. I just want to fuck this. But I think with Vegas, the fun part would just be having some sort of personality with that franchise.

[Jacoby]

Well, we had it in Pierce. Like, that's the guy. We smoked cigars. I won a Super Bowl. But he just looks miserable now because they hired the interim coach. You don't do that. Can't do it. Can't do it.

[Bill Simmons]

I like your theory.

[Jacoby]

Thank you.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, I'm going A, A minus, B plus. Kyle Brandt, great to see you as always, Craig. Thanks, Craig.

[Jacoby]

Pleasure.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to. Thanks to Jacoby and Goldsberry. Thanks to Kyle and Craig. Thanks to Kyle Creighton and Steve Cerritti and Jesse Lopez. Thanks to Gahao and Jack. Thanks to you guys for making it through our second podcast of the week. I'm gonna have another one on Thursday. I'm gonna have an NBA six pack. I'm gonna have million dollar picks. I'm gonna have a guest. Stay tuned. Get ready to buckle up. I'll see you on Thursday. Must be 21 plus and President. Select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + in President D.C. gambling problem. Call 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-887-897-777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelpline ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text hopeny in New York.