Orlando Gets Bane, The Limbo Grizzlies, KD’s Future and OKC’s Moment with Ryen Russillo

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Bill Simmons Podcast – "Orlando Gets Bane, The Limbo Grizzlies, KD’s Future and OKC’s Moment with Ryen Russillo"

Release Date: June 15, 2025

In this episode of The Bill Simmons Podcast, host Bill Simmons engages in an in-depth discussion with co-host Ryen Russillo, delving into significant NBA developments, including major trades, team dynamics, and the ongoing NBA Finals. The conversation offers listeners a comprehensive analysis of recent moves, future prospects, and strategic insights into some of the league's most intriguing storylines.

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1. Orlando’s Trade for Desmond Bane

Bill Simmons opens the discussion by highlighting a bombshell trade involving the Orlando Magic acquiring Desmond Bane from the Memphis Grizzlies. The trade sends four first-round picks and a swap to Memphis in exchange for Bane, Cole Anthony, and Kentavious Caldwell-Pope.

• Analysis of the Trade:

  • Bill remarks, "[…] Orlando gets Desmond Bane and gives up four first-rounders and a swap along with Cole Anthony and Kentavious Caldwell-Pope" (04:00). He emphasizes the strategic significance of acquiring Bane, a player who can significantly bolster Orlando's three-point shooting capabilities.

  • Ryen Russillo adds, "It's a directional shift for the franchise" (09:39), underscoring the long-term vision behind the trade.

• Impact on Orlando’s Team:

  • Bill praises Bane’s fit with Orlando, noting his three-point shooting prowess: "He's 43% on catch and shoot threes in all five" (11:17), making him a critical asset for a team struggling with perimeter shooting.

  • Ryen discusses the financial implications, "With the hard cap, paying three guys at 40 plus million is unsustainable" (09:39), suggesting that Orlando is resetting its financial strategy to build a competitive roster.

• Implications for Memphis:

  • Bill expresses concerns about Memphis signaling weakness, stating, "This feels like a possible white flag for me from Memphis" (04:00). He questions Memphis's commitment to building around their young talents amidst the significant assets parted with.

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2. Memphis Grizzlies’ Strategy and Future

The conversation transitions to Memphis's broader strategy, focusing on their handling of young talents like Jaren Jackson and John Moran.

• Trade Considerations for Jaren Jackson:

  • Bill and Ryen debate the value and tradeability of Jaren Jackson, with Bill noting, "He's making $23 million bucks, making him tradable to every team" (07:00). They consider various teams that might be interested in acquiring him.

• Potential Trade Scenarios:

  • Ryen explores potential trade destinations, "Chicago could offer Kobe White and some picks," (44:18) while Bill discusses the complexities of trading Jackson given his contract and potential resale value.

• Future Prospects:

  • Both hosts reflect on Memphis's commitment to their core players versus leveraging their assets for future gains. Bill posits, "They didn’t want to pay all three, or this is stage one of a massive blow up" (05:59), hinting at possible future turmoil within Memphis's roster management.

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3. Kevin Durant’s Future and Potential Trades

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to the future of Kevin Durant (KD), exploring potential trade destinations and the ramifications of such moves.

• Possible Destinations:

  • Bill argues that Houston is the most logical destination for KD, stating, "It makes the most sense for Durant to go to Houston" (52:30), citing their existing roster and strategic needs.

  • Ryen considers other options like San Antonio and Miami, debating their capacity and willingness to absorb KD into their teams.

• Implications of a Durant Trade:

  • The hosts weigh the benefits and drawbacks of trading KD, especially considering his age and performance metrics. Bill mentions, "He’s almost at 50,000 playoff minutes. Hard to win four rounds in a row as an older player" (63:56), questioning the long-term viability of KD as a cornerstone player.

  • Ryen adds, "If you have a guy who’s in year six and a lottery pick, the unknown often feels more valuable" (34:05), discussing the precarious nature of trading for aging stars versus investing in young, high-potential players.

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4. OKC’s Performance and the NBA Finals

The episode shifts focus to the Oklahoma City Thunder (OKC) and their remarkable journey in the NBA Finals against the Indiana Pacers.

• Defense and Key Players:

  • Bill lauds Lou Dort for his defensive prowess, saying, "Lou Dort was the MVP" (87:35), highlighting his ability to disrupt opposing teams.

  • Ryen emphasizes the Thunder's defensive strategy, noting their aggressive approach in the playoffs, "OKC defense is too hard to solve for four wins" (103:04).

• Game Analysis:

  • The hosts dissect pivotal moments in the series, including controversial officiating and fatigue among players. Bill critiques the referees, stating, "They seemed to have no consistency" (93:04), while Ryen discusses key plays where OKC narrowly escaped defeat.

  • They also explore the psychological aspect, "Once you get close to the title, you're going to be the craziest version of yourself" (77:19), suggesting that OKC's mental fortitude is a critical factor in their Finals performance.

• Final Thoughts on the Finals:

  • Both hosts express optimism about OKC’s chances, despite Indiana’s resilience. Bill concludes, "OKC is going to win the next two" (99:56), confidence stemming from their defensive lockdown and strategic gameplay.

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5. Additional Insights and Off-Topic Discussions

Towards the latter part of the episode, Bill and Ryen briefly touch upon other subjects, including personal anecdotes, movie preferences, and lighter banter about local eateries and travel experiences related to the NBA Finals.

• Personal Anecdotes:

  • Ryen shares experiences from attending the Finals, including interactions at local spots like St. Elmo’s Shrimp House. Bill humorously recounts ordering a “ranch water” drink, reflecting on the unique cultural aspects of Indianapolis’ sports environment.

• Future Episodes:

  • The hosts tease upcoming topics, such as playoff predictions and potential guest appearances, ensuring listeners stay engaged for future discussions.

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Notable Quotes

• Bill Simmons: "This feels like a possible white flag for me from Memphis" (04:00)
• Ryen Russillo: "It's a directional shift for the franchise" (09:39)
• Bill Simmons: "He’s 43% on catch and shoot threes in all five" (11:17)
• Ryen Russillo: "With the hard cap, paying three guys at 40 plus million is unsustainable" (09:39)
• Bill Simmons: "Lou Dort was the MVP" (87:35)
• Ryen Russillo: "OKC defense is too hard to solve for four wins" (103:04)

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Conclusion

In this episode, Bill Simmons and Ryen Russillo provide a thorough exploration of pivotal NBA trades, team strategies, and the intensity of the NBA Finals. Their analysis offers listeners valuable insights into the evolving landscape of the league, the implications of high-stakes trades, and the characteristics that define championship-contending teams. Whether you're a die-hard fan or a casual follower, this episode delivers a nuanced and engaging discussion on the current state and future of the NBA.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra, the official beer partner of the NBA. What do I love about the NBA championship? Well, first of all, I love when the Celtics win, but that's not happening this year. But you know what I really love? The drama, the pressure. Everything goes to the highest level. Guys are injured, guys are banged up, guys are hungry. It just brings out the best of everything. And Michelob Ultra is helping you celebrate like a champion with a chance to win your own limited edition championship bottle, just like those gifted to the NBA players during the championship parade. Enter now at michelobaltra.com Courtside Champs bottles Michelob Ultra Courtside Victor Solomon Champs Bottle Sweepstakes. No purchase necessary. Open to US residents 21/ends June 22, 2025. See Official [e-mail] Rules for free entry, prizes and details. Message and data rates may apply. Void where prohibited. The Bill Simmons Podcast, brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network where you can find Ryan Rosillo's podcast. This is our favorite time of year June, with free agency in the NBA draft and the NBA finals all happening at the same time. You can find the rewatchables which will be on Tuesday night. This week, not Monday night. We are doing Marathon man as part of New York City month. Rossillo, Dustin Hoffman, Larry Olivier. I call him Larry. William Devane, Roy Scheider. Any thoughts on that? Written by William Goldman.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, that's the old story where the other Larry O. Didn't he tell Dustin Hoffman to be like, wanna just try acting?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Oh yeah, we're gonna be covering that. Yeah, he was talking, doing a method acting thing and Larry's like, how about just trying acting? So there you go.

[Ryan Rosillo]

You think you'd be a method actor?

[Bill Simmons]

I definitely would not. I think you could tell from our podcast we both like winging it. We like the improv and the ad lib.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Oh, I don't know about that. Maybe with the podcasting, but I could see myself getting into it. Like, I get to do steroids.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a ESPN talk show host who has a steroids addiction. That sounds great. I didn't realize you were a method actor.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah. Or just like, what happened to him? He's in Key West. He's just decided he's going to get like super bloated glassy eyed for this role.

[Bill Simmons]

My favorite Dana Day Lewis where he was like doing Last of Mohicans and he insisted on helping them build the cabin because he wanted to get into his late 1800s kind of man about town.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I'm not sure there's a podcast I wish could happen more that won't than.

[Bill Simmons]

You interviewing Daniel about all his method acting.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Just because you have a good way about yourself of like not making it pretentious for everybody else to try to make it pretentious and you just be like, what's up with. Like, are you. Can you still fix shoes?

[Bill Simmons]

We're gonna take a. We're gonna take a break, bring in Pearl Jim. And then an action packed Sunday Father's Day podcast. Next. This episode is presented by State Farm. It's no secret that great teams need great teammates. I've been saying this for years. And when it comes to insurance, State Farm is there to help you find the right coverage for your home, car and more. Whether you need an in person or digital assist, they're ready. When Life hits you with a full court press, get a game plan that helps fit your life. Talk to State Farm today. State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. All right, happy Father's Day. Taping this a little after 10:00 PT, we thought we might be talking about a Kevin Durant trade. Instead we got a bombshell Rosillo. We got a Memphis and Orlando trade where Orlando gets Desmond Bain and they gave up four first rounders and a swap and Cole Anthony and Kentavious Caldwell Pope and I want to talk about the Orlando stuff in a second. The Memphis piece really jumped out to me because you're basically getting three firsts from a team that's going to be really good over the next five years. You're getting a swap, but then you're getting this 2026, best of a Phoenix, Washington, Orlando swap thing, that is the prize asset. And yet when you have Jaren Jackson and John Moran and Desmond Bain and you trade Bain and Jaren Jackson has a year left on his deal and John Morant has been, I wouldn't say stable over the last three years. And you're in the west with a team OKC that looks like they're going to dominate the rest of the decade with the spurs, with Dallas, with Cooper. Flag, you go on down the line. This feels like a possible white flag for me from Memphis and maybe not the last trade. What was it? What was your thought on the Memphis side?

[Ryan Rosillo]

No, I want to stay there though. White flag, like that's saying something when you start like, clearly we had it with Golden State where when it was just stacked up and I remember talking to other teams and like Daryl, it was like, hey, at least Daryl's going for it. Like so many of these other teams in the west go, what's the point? That might be the best starting five we've ever seen in the history of this game. And Daryl's like, all right, well. And I remember we had him on and he was saying something like, I don't know if we had. It wasn't. I don't know, the quote came out.

[Bill Simmons]

Biggest fanduel thing. We were talking about him chasing Golden State.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, we did it then. But like in the moment as it was, like we had already been through a year of it because I thought the Vegas thing was after that, because it was.

[Bill Simmons]

Right, well, whatever. I get your train.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, yeah. It was just that Daryl had figured out the math of, like, we have, you know, 41 chance of playing the Houston Rockets and. Or the Houston Rockets are going to play Golden State. That was my Daryl impersonation. Sorry.

[Bill Simmons]

I liked it.

[Ryan Rosillo]

You know, sold that a little bit, so.

[Bill Simmons]

And it was method acting.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Like, wait, he's taking night courses at mit? What do you like, do you think that. I mean, do you really think that, though? Because that's a pretty bold statement about a team with a job, with a Jaren Jackson in a city where it's like you kind of have to feel like you're all in all the time. Like, do you think they look around and go, okay, Dallas gets Cooper, Wemby's coming and all these other things. And of course you have OKC two games away from this whole thing, which I know we'll spend a lot of time on. That's just a massive statement for front office and ownership to get on the stage page and be like, let's white flag this conference for the next few years.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know any other way to take it because, like, I looked at my Ringer 100 list and Desmond Bain, I had him at, you know, in like the high 30s, somewhere in there, wherever, whatever list you're having, he's one of the best 35 to 43 players in the league. In a 30 team league. Right. And you're. Whatever the Memphis is trying to do to win a title you would think would be built around those three guys. Now they're saying we only need two of them. One of them we can't rely on. The other one has a big contract coming up. So either they didn't want to pay all three, or this is stage one of a massive blow up. Let's try to emulate what Presti did, you know, with The Paul George, Russell Westbrook, that whole four year era. Which would mean the second part would be a Jaren Jackson trade. I have, I looked at everything. I had a really good time this morning. What a Father's Day for me. It was the perfect gift to just go in the trade machine and spot track for two hours. I think it's a lot harder to move Ja than it is Jaren Jackson because the Jaren Jackson, the fact that he only makes 23 million bucks makes him tradable to every team in the league. Not that every team would need him or want him, but it's just a completely different type of trade. Like you're talking about the Lakers, not that you know, but they could literally get him for Reeves and Rui and all their picks. Like it's stuff like that that can't really happen. When you're talking about a guy making 45, $50 million a year. You're a bigger, I think you're a slightly bigger fan of Jaren Jackson than I am.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah. And I understand the problems you brought it up, the rebounding, the stupid fouls that constantly happen that make some a cat's foul decision seem smart. And sure, I mean you could get into even different playoff moments of like, is he a coin toss kind of guy? But I mean, you're talking about how much easier he is to trade. My argument would be they don't want to trade. Like you would want to stay in the Jaren Jackson business. And you know, as much time as we spend of trying to predict how teams will sort of manage some of this stuff with the second apron, you know, we've been on here for a while. Do you look at Bain's deal with what's left on it? I mean, it was a pretty big deal. Five years, 197 million. Although I think Bain at 37, 39, 42, 45 and he'd be 45 million in the 31 year old season as opposed to like some of these other deals. You're like, that guy's going to be making what, at 35, 36 with, with everything in the cap being at like 195 for this year. I still think that's a fairly reasonable contract for a player that I know we both like a lot. I love them. I love the basketball fit for Orlando.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

But it, it might just be like if we're all in on, Jon Jaren and Ja, then where am I going?

[Bill Simmons]

If that's my answer, like, well, now this is a commitment to Jared and Ja. It's like, cool. You're. You have no chance of being one of the five best teams in the west for the next three years. If that's your.

[Ryan Rosillo]

So you.

[Bill Simmons]

Those are your two guys.

[Ryan Rosillo]

The Bane thing is, it's not just getting off a contract. It's not just the assets. It's that this is a directional shift for the franchise.

[Bill Simmons]

I do, I really do.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I'm not saying you're wrong. I guess.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, there's two ways to perceive it. Either they felt like they couldn't pay Bane, Jaren Jackson and John Moran all at the same time, which, as we know, with this hard cap, which Zach has officially named it a hard cap, and I think I agree with him. This hard cap, you're paying three guys, 40 plus million. Orlando's gonna find that out when Palo's. When his extension comes in. All I saw, like, for the 26, 27 season, you're all of a sudden looking at like a $350 million payroll. With the tax, it's just really hard to pay four guys, much less three. It just feels to me like they're like, this is a full reboot. Like, we gave it a whirl. Maybe we should just be a bad team. Let Jo just go nuts for a couple years, everyone wear his jersey, and we'll just be one of the three worst teams. And by the way, I support it. I like, especially after going to those two finals games in Indy and watching the athleticism and the depth and the youth, and you just start thinking about how many teams could play at this level. That's why I love the trade for Orlando, because Bane is somebody that could have played in the two games I just went to. Right. That's somebody who easily played 35 to 40 minutes on either team in those games.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, if he's the 35th best player in the league, which I think he's probably in that 30 something to, you know, I don't know. I don't know if I had him 43 to mess with your cutoff there.

[Bill Simmons]

Somewhere, somewhere in that range, there are.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Some incredible numbers for him and who he's been. I mean, the minute he came into the league, he just makes threes. And there was one number I was looking at today. He's 43% on catch and shoot threes in all five. So since he's coming to the league in five seasons on 43% shooting and catching threes, that's third best of any player in the NBA. Pairing that with Orlando's greatest need, which had the worst 3 point shooting percentage season since we've seen in the league since the 2015-16 Lakers.

[Bill Simmons]

So you're saying it was a need?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, I mean this is, you know, whatever you think of Orlando, because Powell is starting to take some hits. If you don't like him, he's an inefficient hog who makes bad decisions. I like him. I think he's a guy whose inefficiency speaks more to the role that he's tasked with of solving a team that can't shoot around him.

[Bill Simmons]

He's 21. There's that part too.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, but I don't, I don't look at him as some of the other on ball guys that are really dynamic where it's like, well, you just still haven't figured out a lot of the game. Like I've seen enough from him from college and in these years in the pros where I'm like, I actually think he is a willing teammate. It's just his teammates are unwilling to make any threes. The Pope signing was a fucking disaster. I mean, that guy was invisible.

[Bill Simmons]

That's why one of these picks I think goes to making Memphis take Pope, take Caldwell Pope. Right? So it's like basically four picks for Bane and then an extra pick to please take Pope with you. With him in the trade, I think.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, I mean the picks are 16, the Phoenix 1st and 26, which, you know, who knows what Phoenix is going to look like day by day here. The unprotected 28 and 30. I mean, it's just so funny when we start looking at these picks, like you're going to be sitting here in five years being like, oh, that's that 30. That's the unprotected from who was in that deal. Be like, remember Pope?

[Bill Simmons]

That's my favorite. The Derrick White trade. I. So there's one other piece of this trade that I think really hurts Memphis and really hurts and really helps Orlando is Bane's just a tough motherfucker, man. And when you think about like the way Presti put together that OKC team and watching them in person for a couple games where none of them talk, Caruso is the only guy on the bench that talks. Everybody else is just like silent assassin, competitive guy and it's like clearly a prototype. They're looking for athletic silent assassin. Do your job, keep your head down, work really hard. Bane fits with Suggs and Palo and Franz. That's a foursome. That makes sense to me. From an intensity chippiness, little aggro. Bane gets A little aggro from time to time. You think about him in round two of whatever series next year. And that's a team that's almost like the Florida Panthers. What we're watching, they add Marchand to all these other guys they have who are just agitators and just this physical agitator team. And Marchand's just like perfect for that. And Bane just seems like perfect for them. I love the trade. I also thought there was more playmaking from him last year than I thought he had in him. Like his assists last season he was over five. When you're over five assists a game, that's not nothing. You know, true.

[Ryan Rosillo]

The true shooting percentage is around 600. First career. And you look at the regular season part of this, he's 41% from three in the regular season. He's played 27 playoff games. The playoff 3% shooting is at 40%. You know, I love him because I like him as a player in a vacuum. I like him for Orlando a lot because this team desperately needs some kind of spacing to make it easier on Paolo. To make it easier when you're swinging to the other side for Franz. Suggs clearly is so important to this team because they fell off a cliff. I do not understand some of the stuff that they do offensively. I'll never forget that regular season game where I think it was Ty Jerome and Sam Merrill. Shout out to Sam Merrill. But they were at the front. They were at the top of a zone that Cleveland was running. And Orlando, with all of their size, still couldn't figure out a way to do anything. They're just not very creative offensively. So I don't know if that's lack of point guard or Paolo not being.

[Bill Simmons]

Along can help that a little bit though. Cause I do feel like he can initiate some offense, run some pick and roll. I. I really like the fit.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah. Cause the catch and shoot guys usually that are this good, it's kind of like you catch, you shoot. Muscle memory. And then that's pretty much it. And he's able to provide that with somebody that can put the ball on the ground and can probably swing it and make some decisions. You know, back to this kind of Thunder ideal of. Of the ideal Thunder players. The way I should say it of that once the ball's in your hands, we trust you with every decision you're going to make after that. And Bane definitely fits that. Now, if you want to say, you know, I just always get annoyed when it's like, oh, he only has one Year left, it's like, what's he worth? And then it's like, oh, that contract. It's like, well, what do you want? Do you want somebody under contract or do you want the flexibility of them not being under contract? Because I think the headline part of it is it's four and a swap for Desmond Bain, but it's about six.

[Bill Simmons]

People don't watch basketball. I mean, come on. I would do this in a heartbeat. It's three non lottery picks. It's the number 16 pick this year and the Phoenix pick, which is a prize.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, the Phoenix pick, which if Phoenix does all right. On this trade.

[Bill Simmons]

But you like Paolo the most. This is a bet on Paolo. Like, this is like we have Paolo. We're going to be in the mix every year because this guy is going to be one of the best 15 guys in the league. So I think that's when, that's when I don't really care about the picks. Like, if the Celtics had done this with Tatum in the early 2000s, I would have been like, I don't mind it. Like, we have Tatum. We're going to be in the mix. You know, and I think Paolo is at least an in the mix guy now, especially in a, in a crippled East.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, I know. It's just five years out, that's all. I mean, you never know what's going to happen. We sit here all the time being like, oh, this team or this guy. And all these things are like, even sitting here pretending like the Thunder like no one's going to challenge him for five years depending on how the rest of this week goes here. So it, I, I sense that there's some resistance to like, people made fun of the Bridges deal because of all the picks. It's like Bridges hasn't even made an all star team. But the Knicks probably felt like at that point we know we can't pay Hartenstein, so we're going to lose him. And so can we reinvent this thing with another wing? Go all in on the picks and just go all in now? Because we actually like with Mitchell, Robinson, the other four. So who's, who's the fifth guy or with Hart that we like the five guys, who's the sixth guy? So Bane fits such a desperate need for this team that it's probably worth the extra pick. You know, if it had been just the 28 unprotected and not the 30 unprotected, does that sound a little bit better? But I don't know who they're bidding against. I don't know what the rest of it is. And he's a really good player. He's a really good player for a team that desperately needed to figure something else out because KCP, even though he's making it's not half, but he's 22 million the next two years. He just was such a massive disappointment. Which, by the way, should be another one of those deals where if you're a team thinking about trading for anybody, that's not Jokic. With Denver, I might just. If I were running a team, I go, even if I like this guy, I don't think I'm going to trade for anybody post Jokic, because you have.

[Bill Simmons]

No idea what their actual talent is playing with Jokic. That's. I like that theory. So, Michael Porter, buyer beware.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, I mean, Aaron Gordon's a perfect example of the other side of this, which Orlando. Orlando fans had to hear this. It's like, I can't believe they traded this guy. Dude, what did you think the market was for him?

[Bill Simmons]

Right?

[Ryan Rosillo]

And now he's playing next to Jokic in this awesome baseline role and now he's become a better shooter. So, I mean, this is a different conversation, but I think the, the Senate summary is we're aligned on this. He fits such a. Just awful need for this team that I'm okay with the price, even if it feels a little bit like, man, you're throwing a lot in there.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And who, like, who are the other type of people if they're going to make a trade like this that you'd want to go after? It's basically Jaylen Brown, maybe Anobi. Right. Knicks aren't trading with Orlando. I don't think the Celtics are trading with Orlando either. So if you start thinking about kind of guard, big guard, who could also maybe guard some, some small forwards like perimeter guys with size, who hit threes, who can play defense, who are tough. This is probably the number one draft pick. I had two bigger reactions other than that. Memphis. 1. This, to me is a blood in the water trade for the Eastern Conference. And this is why I don't think Milwaukee is going to trade Giannis either. I think everybody who's in the Eastern Conference has to look around and go, we might be able to make the Finals next year. Like, Tatum's going to be out. Look at what Indiana. Indiana was 10 and 15 after 25 games. I know there are real reasons for that, but they've won 14 playoff games. Who knows what the Knicks. The Knicks seem like they're A mess right now.

[Ryan Rosillo]

The Knicks are going to be good. I mean, this whole coaching thing is funny to make fun of them, but they're going to be good.

[Bill Simmons]

I know, but I'm just saying, if you go down the line of, who are these slam dunks like Cleveland, we still don't know what look like. Nobody's afraid of any of them.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Even Indiana. And as good as Indiana has been, I don't think anybody's going, whoa, like you would with okc. And I think. I think that's why Milwaukee keeps Giannis, at least until the December, January, February range. If they're. If they're horrible and it looks bad, maybe they look differently at it. But. But I think with this, Orlando has to be looking at this going. We might make the finals next year with this team, especially if we can get one smart free agent signing. You know, who knows? Who knows? We have Palo. What if he makes a leap? What if there's like an Ann Edwards going from here to here kind of jump, or Halliburton going from here to here? So that was. That was one thing, and then the other one, it just confirmed to me that I don't think Milwaukee is going to trade Giannis. I just think if you're them, could you. Could you talk yourself into. Can. Can giannis do a 2018 LeBron and just win three rounds by himself? You know, maybe. You scared anyone in the East. I'm not. So that's it. So Orlando through that. Who. Which roster would you rather have right now, Orlando or New York?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Orlando. I think I would. We did. When we did the next five years thing with the Pacers before, I think everybody kind of fell in love with this Pacers team, and I think that's despite the loss, which I know we'll get to. Just. I know you were in the building, and after game three, you're like, damn, this team is just. You know, this team is. They really are something else.

[Bill Simmons]

They have an idea.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, right. And I was like, would I still take this roster over Cleveland's roster? I'm battling with it. But when we did that exercise, I thought it was worth bringing up Orlando before the Bain part of this. So, yeah, it's going to be expensive with Franz, with Suggs, with Paulo and Bain, which. A different way. That. That's. You know, the Pacers kind of hit this right with the timing, a lot of these contracts, too, because if you were going to start resigning these guys and keep it longer term, then clearly the salary would be a lot more. But, yeah, I think you're right. And by the way, like, as bad as it can be in Milwaukee, it can't be that bad because of how special Giannis is.

[Bill Simmons]

So the other thing, Memphis. Did you see that sneaky Ed injury that they announced a couple days ago where he's out for like five to six months? Maybe they're like, they're going to reevaluate in four, so they might not have him for the whole year. Brandon Clark's coming back from a knee injury, but I think he's going to be fine for the season. They have no idea what Ja. And then the Jaren Jackson piece. You know, I put it this way. If they decide to auction him out, like I was thinking Utah. Is Utah ponying him up the fifth pick and Collins and more first to be in that conversation. I would assume Houston, a lot of the same Durant stuff with more picks. Detroit, if it's Tobias and Ron Holland and like all their firsts and swaps and they just go all in on trying to add him. Brooklyn, Claxton, here's. We have a shitload of picks. How many do you want? The spurs, could they. Could they figure out how to get him without giving up the second pick? And then. I hate mentioning them, but man, if. If the Lakers put Reeves and rui and they're 31st and some swaps and a 32nd first, like, I think it's a conversation. I really like Reeves, you know, so I. That's one of the teams I was looking at.

[Ryan Rosillo]

But I mean, clearly on the asset part of this is about the picks. It's not about Pope's contract and Cole Anthony, who we should probably mention at this point because it's been this far, the discussion of it. Cole's. Cole's like a really nice off the bench guy. He probably don't want to be in your starting point guard, obviously.

[Bill Simmons]

But Cole, Memphis ties too, for him.

[Ryan Rosillo]

What's that?

[Bill Simmons]

He's some Memphis ties, right? Cause I remember Verno loved him.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Was it just Verno?

[Bill Simmons]

No. In the draft, there was something with him in Memphis. I can't remember. Like his.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Maybe we need to do. We need to get it on this.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know. We. We can. We could talk. I could look at it during the break. Verno was like the biggest Cole Anthony fan. So what would you do with Jaren Jackson?

[Ryan Rosillo]

I like the Utah part of it because, you know, the whole bang conversation is you're sitting there going like, all right, but don't we want to wait for like somebody who's just a little bit better. If we're going to go all in with all of these picks, it's like a lot of times you're just sitting there waiting around and you got go, all right, cool. You waited.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

And then no one else became that available. You know, it's. Is. Is it like the Bridges conversation where you go, well, sure, it'd be nice to have all these picks for like a top 10 guy. But waiting around for this top 10 imaginary scenario where we outbid everybody else and the guy definitely wants to come here and stay, like, that's a really. It's probably. It's crazy. It's likely a stupid plan because the idea that it's going to just follow through the way you had planned it out for this one specific guy in this certain tier. It's just chances are stacked against you that that's going to happen. So if you're a Utah and you go, okay, we need something that's heading in the right direction. You know, if. If the draft goes the wrong way and knipples gone and VJs gone, I love it.

[Bill Simmons]

I love that you did that. Is knipple gone at 5? Because I feel the same way. I think Utah would be devastated if Kippo was gone.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Unless they want fears and they go, this is great. We wanted fears the whole time, but that's another guard, another really young guard because he reclassified like Cooper did. And, you know, you can say whatever you want in the press conferences. Like, there's a lot of teams going. We are not rebuilding anymore. We are going for it. You're like, you guys won 32. I'm not even talking about Utah, but, like, I've heard it a lot. I mean, it felt like the Pistons were saying that year after year after year. And look, then it finally happened and we all like where this business team is right now. So you wonder if there are teams that have been bad now for a while that would look at Jaren Jackson the same way Orlando looks at Bane. And I like Jackson better than Bane, but if they would look at him and go, you could do a lot worse than going all in on somebody this young that's this talented. I think showed you, like, the full repertoire of his scoring possibilities. It'd be nice if he was probably with a more athletic 5.

[Bill Simmons]

Can I get like 7 rebounds a game from him?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, I know, I know you're probably not going to. So I. Yeah, I. But I don't know if this means Memphis is tearing the whole thing down. And that would just lead to like, what's the job market? Or is. Is Jaw the best? Because I used to joke that, like.

[Bill Simmons]

If I were the job market, you're. You're looking at like, Brooklyn, Washington, teams like that. Part of the problem with trading a franchise point guard is that 22 of these teams have a franchise point guard or a point guard they love. You know, you go on. If you go on trade machine and just be like, oh, Jah, that'll be easy. And then you go through every team and it's not nearly as easy as you think. Even if you talk about, like, oh, maybe the Clippers would take them. Okay, well, who are they giving back and why is Memphis trading job? Or like James Harden and Zubots, like, not happening. I do think Brooklyn. Brooklyn's the most interesting summer team just because I have no idea what they're up to. They have all these picks. They're going to have potentially a hundred million in cap space. I don't know if they want to be good right away. Maybe they want to tank one more year. Maybe they want to be the way station for other teams, crappy contracts and do what Presti did. But it also feels like there's a way for them to just supercharge it. Be like, we'll take Ja. You're souring on him. You're rebuilding. Okay, we'll put him in Barclays. We'll get people excited about him. There was another thing. So conspiracy Bill. Not quite. It's like his brother just kind of. I'm mildly intrigued. His cousin. I'm mildly intrigued. Bill. Yeah. Wayne. So that Phoenix pick being in the trade did make me wonder because we're going to talk about Durant later.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I like this.

[Bill Simmons]

And the Durant trade would be Jalen Green, I assume. Jalen Green, Jabari, maybe Cam Whitmore. They give Phoenix back their 27 pick, and it's something like that. Right. But then what does Phoenix do with Jalen Green and Devin Booker? Could that then lead to they trade Jalen Green to Memphis and get their other pick back? And then it's basically, they have Booker, Jabari Smith and all their picks back. It was just. Just a Matt Wayne, my cousin Wayne just was mildly intrigued by it or.

[Ryan Rosillo]

That's not what I thought you were going to do.

[Bill Simmons]

What did you think I was going to do? A Booker to Memphis?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Did Orlando do the trade? Because they have a good feel on what Phoenix is going to get for Durant. And they go, well, look, Phoenix is still going to be competitive, like to A plan, a playing game level where they're.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't see it.

[Ryan Rosillo]

You think they're going to be one of the five worst teams in the NBA at the West?

[Bill Simmons]

No, I think they're going to be one of the five worst teams in the West.

[Ryan Rosillo]

They're going to trade Durant wise.

[Bill Simmons]

Can we both agree that if they get. If Jalen Green is the centerpiece of a Durant trade and it's Jalen Green and Devin Booker together, that's not a playoff team because I'm willing to sign that in ink right now. You're not making the playoffs. Those are the best guys. I do not like that max. That mix at all.

[Ryan Rosillo]

We would agree, but I'm, I'm wondering if they have. They feel good about their intel, if they have an understanding that Phoenix, however, they're going to try to put the pieces together for 25, 26. If they're including that pick, does that mean they feel like, all right, well, Phoenix will have, you know, a 6% chance of the number one pick. You know, they're not going to be completely bottom and Booker's probably too good and you probably feel like you owe it to him to be competitive. I mean, I guess we could pretend that Beals on the team.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you're licking that Atlanta situation where it makes no sense to bottom out. So you're basically grinding your way to 39 and 43 or whatever it is.

[Ryan Rosillo]

That's what I'm talking about. Yeah. Yeah. Now, I don't know if there was another version of where Phoenix goes. Now we're just going to tear the studs down around Booker because you would just think as much as Booker seems to love it there and, you know, says all the right things and, you know, I think it's a lot easier to say those things and say that you're on the same page until you're actually like living in it again. And I don't know how happy he would have been long term with Sarver and all the stuff that was happening until Chris Paul comes in and saves the day and then they're competitive. They're playing an NBA championship. So now it like that window of three or four years of being competitive, maybe it revives you a little bit, but then if you're going back into it. But, you know, I could do a weekend, I could do a marathon podcast on trying to figure out what we actually think the best and worst assets are of all the Durant rumors that we've heard. Because you're right. If the Headline is you got Jalen Green. You're like, you can't do better than that. But then you'll hear something that's like, so hands untouchable. You're like, sohan. We like Sohan untouchable.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he's. He would not be untouchable for me. Jaren Jackson, I was trying to figure out what his trade value would be knowing that you're going to have to pay him in a year. Would you rather have the second pick or Jaren Jackson if you're San Antonio?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, that's a tough one, right?

[Bill Simmons]

I think I would rather have the second pick because I think both of us think Harper, man. I, I did an all day rookie deep dive yesterday in the top eight.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, I was getting the text. I didn't even know what to do. You were so excited. I couldn't keep up with him.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it was, it was an all dayer.

[Ryan Rosillo]

It would probably be the unknown of hoping like what Harper is now projecting, like, okay, if this guy really figures it out and how seamless it feels like his college game and just one year as a freshman, just all the stuff that you see with him, you're like, okay, well that's an NBA thing. That's an NBA thing and the price control, all that stuff. You probably would rather have the number two pick with Harper, but it's not as if it's, it's not like I.

[Bill Simmons]

Would personally rather have number two pick if I, if I'm San Antonio. I just want Wembanyama and Harper and all the rest of the guys. I'll figure it out later. Fox, you name it. I, I just know, like, give me these two. I'm going to build my team around these two. Even Castle, who I really like, I would be like Wemby Harper. Maybe Castle and I would just be watching this OKC Indiana series on a loop going, what kind of team do we need to put in a game like this athletically, from a playmaking standpoint, from a shooting standpoint, what does our team have to look like? I would rather have the number two pick. But yeah, that's the thing. If they just go, hey, we're going to resign Jaren Jackson, we have all these picks, maybe we'll make a move, maybe not. And we're going to build around John Morant, a guy that everybody in Memphis loves and one of the 30 best guys in the league, and Jared Jackson, that's our team. I don't think people would be upset about that, but I don't think they're making round two of the playoffs anytime soon. Do you like that in the West? Come on.

[Ryan Rosillo]

No, I don't think so. I would think there's a lot of teams that really like Jaren Jackson, but a lot of the value of all of these picks, especially when we're talking about lottery picks, it's okay, you know, but if I hit it right, you know, the value of the unknown, the value of talking yourself into like, the biggest ceiling ever for a player because you haven't seen anything yet on an NBA court that tells you that somebody can't do it. So the unknown always feels like it's more valuable than the known, which is probably a mistake in a lot of these transactions because I love Jaren Jackson, you know, I, I really do. I. If it were just in a vacuum, like, who would get more calls if you said, hey, Jaren Jackson or Bain's available, Jackson's getting more calls. Right. You're not saying, wow, wow.

[Bill Simmons]

The one you're left on the deal makes me nervous. I, I love that. Bane is just, here's his contract.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Let's say this, let's say this because. All right, fine. But this kind of gets back to the whole, like, that's a lot of money here. Oh, he could leave in a year. What if Jaren Jackson is telling you, like, the Siakam transaction with the Pacers, it's like, I'm in. I'm gonna, I'll, I'll resign with you. So if, you know, you can get Jaren Jackson resigned versus Bayner to be signed.

[Bill Simmons]

But Jaren Jackson's like, you're gonna resign me, but I expect something in the high 40s, low 50s. And I'll be like, so, 50 million a year. So that's 10 million per rebound a game. That's what, that's what we're pricing out. Was it 9 million per rebound a game? I don't know. I just don't think he's a $50 million player. I don't. Now, that doesn't mean he's not going to get it from somebody. But I just think with this hard cap now, if you're paying him $50 million, it's going to be really hard to put a winning team around that. Let's take a break because there's a lot more to discuss, including the KD ramifications of this trade. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. One of the best things about summer, all the different sports going on. You might be playing volleyball, golf, tennis, baseball, who knows? There's so much to do. If you really want to have some fun, spice things up with Michelob Ultra as the prize. Because winning always tastes better with Ultra on the line. I'm a big tennis guy, especially during the summer. Uh, nothing better than a couple sets. Sweat it all out. The Ultra's waiting for you. Um, don't do this with pickleball, because you shouldn't play pickleball. Play tennis. That's what the real people play. Play tennis. Have an Ultra superior is worth playing for. You can fill your fridge with Michelob Ultra this [e-mail] super easy. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2025 Anheuser Bush Michelobotra Light Beer, St. Louis, Missouri all right, Rossillo. I looked at FanDuel. They had the odds for the year 2026. NBA champion OKC is plus 220. Cleveland is plus 850. Second best odds. The Knicks are plus 950. Third best odds. The Pacers are 12 to 1. Celtics are 14 to 1. I'll book that bet. Orlando is 16 to 1.

[Ryan Rosillo]

You're not bets Denver the Celtics to be NBA champs next year.

[Bill Simmons]

I would book if somebody was going to bet that. I'll. I'll book that action.

[Ryan Rosillo]

You'll take it?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I'll take that.

[Ryan Rosillo]

My bad. My bad.

[Bill Simmons]

Orlando 16 to 1 with the. With the 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 best odds in the conference seems kind of excessive. I would. I would have them. I'd probably have them second behind Indiana. Right. Or would you have Cleveland over them? They're in the top three.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Cleveland's still too talented for Vegas to just completely write them off, so.

[Bill Simmons]

Especially after 64 wins. Yeah, you're right. Anyway, 16 one for them. I'm trying to think for them to actually win some rounds next year, Anthony Black would have to go to two other levels. I assume he's the fifth guy, especially because now they've traded Cole. I don't. Unless there's some free agent I'm not thinking of. Or maybe it's like they get like a Luke Canard type or something. But they're still going to need that fifth guy out there in these crunch times with those four. And I guess it's going to have to be Anthony Black. What'd you see from him last year? What did you like and not like?

[Ryan Rosillo]

I liked him. I think there's probably moments as a rookie where I was like, oh, this guy's going to be pretty good. And then there wasn't enough progress from year one to year two with him. But I still like him. I like his playmaking, I like his unselfishness. But I mean, the key for him is know like the whole. Remember like two years ago, we're sitting there with Jonathan Isaac and we're like, this guy's awesome.

[Bill Simmons]

Is this Bill Russell in a time machine.

[Ryan Rosillo]

And you are like, oh, this team can't play another non shooter. Like, this is a complete disaster. And that's kind of the problem with Black, at least for the second year and the regression. I mean, he was under 40% from three. Grant, he was only taking one and a half a game. You know, that's a bit like some of these bigs are like, that guy's a 40% shooter from three. It's like, yeah, he takes like one a game, so it's not really a thing. Even though the number is nice. And he was 32% from three this year, taking two and a half a game. So the minutes jumped up. You know, he didn't start a lot of games he played. I still think there was enough there. I just feel like maybe that rookie year I was more excited about him and then I expected a little bit more this year. And it's not just about the shooting. I think he's a smart player. I think he's competitive, probably still needs to fill out a little bit more. But he's not playing, he's not closing.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

You think he's closing with Paolo Bane?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't. There's probably a veteran, there's a Derek.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Fisher, early 2010s type, but it's, it's the four and then whoever the center is, and Wendell is underwhelming, I think it's safe to say.

[Bill Simmons]

So you think it's the four guys? You think it's the four guys with a center and they don't even play a point guard. Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Well, what do you, what do you think it is? Franz and Paolo were playing, Suggs is playing, Bane is playing. So then it's who's the center? You seriously think they'd run that?

[Bill Simmons]

I would want somebody that I know in certain situations could play crunch time. If I wanted to go small with Paolo and Franz, basically, as my quote unquote bigs, I would want the flexibility to do either depending on who I'm playing. Cause what if I'm playing Indiana in game six and they just go small and put toppin at the five and they have three guards and I basically have no guards out there. I'm in trouble, you know, mo minutes.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I, I mean, Batazi's been a nice little story. Remember, they, like, spent their money last year, too. On.

[Bill Simmons]

Still mad. I thought. I thought he was. Thought he was a little reckless in the Boston series. I'm still mad about it. Some elbows flying around.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Well, the other part of the odds for Orlando is people are probably thinking, like, even with Bane, it'd be nice to see him win a series. Right. For.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

And they're really young, so, you know, it's not like they had all these massive expectations.

[Bill Simmons]

But I'm going to just say a couple teams for John Morant, and you tell me when to stop.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

So these are teams Memphis is calling, and they're dangling John Morant. And the other team is not saying, no, thanks. They're saying, really can. We're going to talk amongst ourselves. We'll call you back. All right. And I'm not going to say every team in the league, and I'm not going to say teams that can't trade for him. Atlanta.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Is Trey gone?

[Bill Simmons]

I think Trey has to be in the trade. Right?

[Ryan Rosillo]

What are you doing if you're playing Trey and John next to each other?

[Bill Simmons]

No, I think Trey has to be in the trade going to Memphis.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Right. But I just wanted to be sure.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, what you, Trey and Ja together would be an attempt to just completely ruin your brain during league.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I'd watch it. Like, actually, the whole dejounte thing was test driving Ja and Trey.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. All right.

[Ryan Rosillo]

So, John, Atlanta seems like a good fit, though, just in general.

[Bill Simmons]

How about Chicago?

[Ryan Rosillo]

I'm not totally against the. You know what, though? You can't. Because Trey is a more stable guy that you can also count on who plays.

[Bill Simmons]

Are you still thinking about the Atlanta trade?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah. Cause, I mean, that one just. I mean, I was a little frazzled here when I. I was so ready for you to say something positive about the Celtics. I completely misinterpreted a very normal phrase of like, I'll book your bets. But I just expected. I was like, wait, you're still. It was like, breaking news to me here in June of 25. I was like, did Bill talk himself back into believing that they're a sneaky east contender? And the answer is emphatic no. And I'm so pre. Like, conditioned to think that you were going to. Actually. I got so excited. I was like, he actually thinks they're going to win the east next year. That I should have totally understood based on the phrasing was like, no, you want people to make that bet? All right, so back to Atlanta, because I can't get over this one yet. Let me throw it back. Even if you think, like, peak Jaw is better than Trey, even if you don't like Trey, his stability, you. You would never do this. Even if you thought, like, okay, but Ja, there's like a little bit more of a. I'm not even sure if there is that much more of a ceiling, but, like, does JA feel like a bigger star? Which is kind of a dumb conversation anyway.

[Bill Simmons]

Ja, higher ceiling because he's. I think if his head's on right, he's a better player. And he also means more to Memphis, which is the other reason why it's tough to. I mean, as Verno has talked about many times, everyone in Memphis owns a JA jersey. So if you're trading him, as stupid as this sounds, this does have Luka getting traded from Dallas kind of vibes where people are like, you traded Ja, He's. Everyone loves ja. So if you're going to do it, you have to get a good trade back.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I think take out the fan base part of it, too. Cause that's like the superstar conversation. That's a little different because it's like Jaw at one point felt like he was tracking towards being one of the faces of the league. I know that might not be done yet.

[Bill Simmons]

He's only. He's only in his mid-20s. He's still.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I'm over 11 as a basketball player. I. I just. I'm over his very predictable approach. Predictable approach to all this stuff. I think he's going to get hurt all the time. And I think he's delusional. I think he's a very delusional guy. I would.

[Bill Simmons]

I would personally trade him Chicago. So I guess that would be like Kobe White.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I'm not done yet. Not done yet.

[Bill Simmons]

You're still in Atlanta.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah. Who would you just rather have, like, not Trey's appeal in Atlanta? Not. I would rather have Trey.

[Bill Simmons]

At least I know what I'm getting. Chicago, I guess, would be like a Kobe White, some picks. I. I don't know how that makes sense.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Is your. Is your pitch on this that you're kind of. If things go the right way, you're kind of getting a star, a very discounted star.

[Bill Simmons]

No, my pitch on this is a jaw trade is a lot harder than people think. If people are like, mips is going to blow it up, they're going to trade Ja Jaron. Like, we're going through the teams now, Miami. So I think Hero would have to be in that trade, plus picks to get Memphis to do It. I don't know. Is Miami rolling the dice with John Morant?

[Ryan Rosillo]

I think they'll roll the dice on somebody that feels like a real.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, so we finally have a guy.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, I think Miami makes sense.

[Bill Simmons]

Miami first team, Toronto. Keep hearing Messiah. It's ready to do stuff. It's going to be aggressive. Don't count them out. They'll trade for Durant for a year.

[Ryan Rosillo]

They don't even.

[Bill Simmons]

He did it with Kawhi. Yeah, he did it with Kawhi when he had like a 57 win team. He did it with Kawhi.

[Ryan Rosillo]

He didn't give up a lot for Kawhi. Have you gone back and looked at that deal? I mean, you probably remember it. DeRozan and Jakob. Right. And it was a top 20 protected pick. That was Keldon Johnson at 29.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. You do that trade every time for one year.

[Ryan Rosillo]

And they also won the title, I've heard.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm going to rule out Toronto. Brooklyn. I'm not ruling out.

[Ryan Rosillo]

You're ruling out Toronto for Ja.

[Bill Simmons]

I just don't think they have anything to give up. They're not trading Scotty Barnes for him and the rest of the stuff they have.

[Ryan Rosillo]

They're not getting him quickly.

[Bill Simmons]

No. Brooklyn, yes. Charlotte would have to be Lamelo for Ja, which I think we've discussed on seven podcasts at this point. It's a fun one. Not against it. It's a good. Who says no? I think Charlotte probably says no ultimately, but it's a fun one. Who says no? Wait, you seem like you're percolating on that one.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Just picking all my favorites here, you know.

[Bill Simmons]

And then Washington. It. That just feels wrong.

[Ryan Rosillo]

It is, because it is wrong.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

That just brought in for them front office group. I mean, I know it wasn't yesterday, but I think Jaw kind of disrupts the. The team that trades for Jaw. And this used to be the old Westbrook thing is that I know he puts up numbers and he's talented. I personally feel this way about his approach to basketball and the flaws and how he fits in. Like, you have to hand the keys. You give him the entire franchise. And you only do that if you feel like you have been a stale franchise for a really long time without any direction or any kind of plan. And before Orlando. Desperate. Yeah. And like before Orlando had hit on, you know, Franz and then winning the lottery and getting Paolo and be like, okay, we have real building blocks here. Who knows how it's going to figure out? But like, there was. There was different years ago, different landing Spots of like Westbrook. It's like, would Westbrook to Orlando like, work? You know, hey, just. You've got a traction. Yeah, but it happened in Washington, so you could argue like it kind of happened in Washington. It would at least feel like there's a three to four year plan here for the Wizards, where you're a year in and you'd be completely derailing everything you've been, you know, hypothetically mapping out here by saying, like, okay, now we have John here and good luck.

[Bill Simmons]

It would be the most wizardy move in a while. So then you go through the west and there's a lot less candidates. There's really just one team that jumps out. Cause I don't think New Orleans, that doesn't make sense. And I don't think Utah would do it either. Sacramento, everything you just said about a desperation, a malaise, making a big swing, not being afraid. They check a lot of boxes for a jaw trade. I think Sabonis probably has to be in it because I don't think otherwise. I don't think you're getting them for Levine and picks or whatever. They don't really have a lot of assets, but maybe it's a three way. But that's the only other team I looked at. The point is I think a job trade is hard for them.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, I think Vivek would do it.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he would too.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, I think that's the kind of thing that he would want to do. Like, I thought Monica did a really good job with that team, but I feel like there's like a lot of these teams, like, sometimes you're like, what happened there? Or what went on there or whatever. And like, we always have to remind ourselves. A lot of times the owner's gonna say, hey, this is what I want to do, or this is what I'm going to do here. They bring in Scott Perry. So our Scott and Vivec aligned enough that it's like, hey, we're a little flat here. We were close. It was new for us. Like, light the beam, all the. Like, they had some real momentum there, but you knew that that was like, that's not a high ceiling team. But this is kind of fun that they're even in the mix considering their history and where they've been and that now, like that building towards something. It's likely like, hey, that was it. That was all it was going to be. And you know, Fox Game seven against.

[Bill Simmons]

Golden State, that's where it landed, right?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Steph had.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, 51 other thing I was Thinking, could Memphis get a little sideways frisky? Maybe be. Maybe be. No man lands it. No man's landsit. I don't know what the phrase is. KCP and Brandon Clark to Denver for Michael Porter Jr. And they say, fuck it. And then if you're Denver, you save salary, you get two pieces for one. You get out of the last two years of Porter's deal. And if you're Memphis, you're like, let's take a firearm. The guy's talented. Put him in the bane spot. Maybe he can capture 85% of his scoring. And then we just got all these picks.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Because whoever's trading for Porter, I like what you did there. He can't ever be expected to be anything more than your third option. Right. That's the best case scenario. And if you were to bring him in, being like, we're going to have him wait, he's going to be, you know, you just already see the headlines that are big. We're going to get him more in the actions.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, right. He just needs more touches.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah. He's a feel guy, and when it's right, it's beautiful. It's nuts what he can do. Six, ten, those pull ups off the dribble. When it's right. You realize why this guy, for a very long time at a young age was. Was projected to be this dude. And there's always these glimpses, but him kind of back to the other thing. We were talking about him, not with yic somewhere else. If you think that you're two manning it and Porter's your one or two every single night, you just. I don't even know how many teams would even think that. But I like what you did there for Memphis.

[Bill Simmons]

Thank you. Well, there's a bigger picture thing that ties into that Jaylen greed train I mentioned earlier.

[Ryan Rosillo]

The one that didn't happen.

[Bill Simmons]

The one that hasn't happened yet. And maybe by the time this podcast goes up, Durant will get traded to somebody else and this whole section will be moot. But I do think, and there's a second piece of this that I want to talk about, about why I don't think San Antonio. Why I think something is changing about their philosophy of what to do. Big picture. I think it makes the most sense for Durant to go to Houston. And the trade that makes sense has to have Jalen Green in it from a salary standpoint with Jabari, who I think both of us really, like, maybe Whitmore's in it. And they give Phoenix back their 27 pick we like.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I think we like Jabari, but we're running out of.

[Bill Simmons]

We realistically like him. Yeah. Yeah. But if they can then flip Green to Memphis and get their other pick back and Phoenix can at least write the ship for the next two years, that gives them a lot more flexibility with Booker to be a little more patient and maybe they could do what OKC did with sga.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Where.

[Bill Simmons]

Remember sga? OKC was just sitting him for two years. Basically. There was one year where he just after the All Star break, we just didn't see him again. They just punted on two years. I don't know if Sarbo would have the patience to do that. But it leads to the KD thing, which I think we have to talk about because it feels like that's going to happen pretty imminently. He said the three teams he would sign an extension to, as reported last night, were San Antonio, Miami and Houston. So the two Texas teams in Miami, Minnesota, I don't think could ever figure out the Gobert defincenzo. I just don't think they had enough. The salaries were weird. They're both hard cap teams and I thought it was going to be San Antonio.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Okay, so where are you on that? Because a week ago you were heavy on San Antonio.

[Bill Simmons]

I was.

[Ryan Rosillo]

And I'm not calling you out for. I just want to know, like, tell us of your journey the last seven days.

[Bill Simmons]

Say we're working for the Spurs. We find out we have the number two pick. Harper's clearly the second pick. I think we can both agree. And now we're just crunching Harper tape for a month. And at some point we look at each other and go, what are we doing? This guy's clearly should be the second pick. This guy's a potential franchise guard. He looks like he's a combination of Cade Cunningham and Jalen Brunson. And I don't even know what else, but he's a really unique, awesome athlete. He's herky jerky. He's crafty. There's stuff he's doing at age 19.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Where he's like, he's got moxie.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he's got a lot of moxie and guile. And you're like, hey, the Deer and Fox, no brainer. We didn't have to give up a lot for him. We wink, winked. Maybe we'd give him an extension. But this is kind of our guy. Maybe the move is to just take Harper, move away from Fox, not do the Durant trade. And maybe our window is in right now. Maybe our window is like, three, four years from now, when Wemby's 24, 25, when this kid has been in the league a couple years, castles come up. Maybe we could kind of emulate what OKC has and build up through this Nucleus. Why are we trading any assets for Durant now? We're not going to win the title. It just makes me. I don't think Fox and Harper make sense together. I don't get it.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Couple things. I. There's maybe nothing I hate more than this idea that everybody's supposed to be locked into this kind of timeline. Right?

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Like the Dallas Mavericks talking about a timeline as if it was like, we're smarter than everybody. Like, you know, we. We need to be about defense. And the way AD Is paired with Kyrie, it's like, everybody's supposed to be within three years of each other. For you to be doing it, like. Like, Duncan couldn't use Ginobili or Tony Parker. Like, oh, those guys are too young, you know?

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Ryan Rosillo]

It's not the same timeline. All this stuff is so stupid. And all of us bring it up constantly about, like, well, if you have a guy who's, like, in year six, but then you have a lottery pick, it's like, well, who knows? Maybe when you likely don't win the championship. Your best player, who's only in year nine and likely came in after one year and is 28 or 29 years old, and you pair him with a guy you've completely nailed, and he's terrific in his second year, Guess what's good about that? He's a really good player playing next to the other guy. And it doesn't mean that they have to be 28 or 26. It drives me fucking crazy because everybody defaults to it all the time. Now. That makes it sound like I'm totally aligned with you. And I think the Durant thing is really stupid. I feel like I could be talked into this either way, where if. If the price on Durant is Harrison Barnes Vassell, who I think we all like, but, you know, what's the ceiling there as of this point? Like, he probably feels a little bit more like an opportunity score than just a dynamic. Like, nobody can do anything with this guy. If it's Barnes and it's like some other later pick and it's Barnes Vassell.

[Bill Simmons]

The 14th pick and some future pick, that's okay, but not awesome. I would. I would also do that trade in five seconds. Why not?

[Ryan Rosillo]

It gets me excited a little bit about, all right, well, let's let's see what happens here. Because this is a guy who can bring in and you know he's going to put up numbers. Even when he was miserable coming off of that summer going into Brooklyn, he put up huge numbers until he was then pretty quickly miserable again by the trade deadline and ended up getting his way out. So.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I, he wants, he wants to be there as the other piece.

[Ryan Rosillo]

He, if, if he wants to be there.

[Bill Simmons]

He likes the Austin, San Antonio area. I really do. I think he likes that area.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Okay. I don't know. I don't know. Because, you know, you're also betting on somebody who finds a way to be unhappy everywhere he goes. As much as we love him as a player, like, that's on him. And I, I see him arguing.

[Bill Simmons]

It's only been the last seven years.

[Ryan Rosillo]

You're right, it has only been the last seven.

[Bill Simmons]

Hasn't been a decade.

[Ryan Rosillo]

It's only been seven years and the last three stops. So, you know, based on pricing and hey, we do this and I would think every team wants to do the two year extension with them. I don't understand why you'd be trading kind of anything for a one year rental of Durant. I know the numbers. Two years, 122 million, which he's eligible for after July 6th. I don't know why he would wait another six months to do two years. 124 million. I hear that one talked about all the time. It's like, if you're Durant, you go, it's okay, I'll risk the other 2 million. With my injury history at this stage of my life, I'll take the 122 now. And I'd imagine that he would want that. It also reminds me a bit of the Jimmy Butler thing is Jimmy Butler didn't like Golden State until Golden State was the only option. And they go opt in and then we'll tack on the next year. So you're going to get another year at like max money. It's like, you know what? I, maybe I could do this Golden State thing.

[Bill Simmons]

So that could be the Minnesota thing. Minnesota's not on my list. Oh, you're gonna promise me two years. Oh, now you are on my list.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Right? Everybody has a million options in their head and all their preferences and the things they will do or they won't do until it's like, okay, well all those things you thought were in play, you don't get to decide you don't have those options are not on your terms. So now here are the only things that are left. So now you got to pick one of these. And a lot of times you're picking one that you didn't think you were even gonna do or you're trying to talk yourself out of it. So on the other part of this first part part which kind of speaks to criticizing my own timeline thing here is if the spurs, if we came out, although, you know, you don't hear a lot from the spurs, they just went, hey, Durant at this stage end the two years, 122 million. We're really excited about Harper. We'll see how it fix fits with Fox for a year. It probably is a little redundant there. There's a lot of over overlap in their games. You know, can Fox later on play off a little bit more than he did before? That seems kind of stupid. Have dear and Fox playing off of them.

[Bill Simmons]

He already couldn't do that with Halbert in Sacramento. So I'm, I guess it's still not going to happen.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Which would be the funniest thing for Fox. It's like you got to stay because of Halbert. And then they got Dylan Harper, which they didn't expect. Clearly they didn't think they were getting Dylan Harper when they make that trade. And now you get spun out for the new young guy, which was again, the opposite of what happened there with Halberton. I have now, if I've, I've talked about this enough this week, I don't really like it. I would say, hey, are we really solving anything here? Are we just more interesting for 25, 26. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Or.

[Ryan Rosillo]

And it's also going to cost us another 122 million for a guy that does get hurt. And who knows if he's pissed off about being here in a year and goes, oh, you know, I only have one year left, or, you know, he does the extension. It's like he plays two years. I don't. I don't think it makes a ton of sense. I really don't. I don't think. I don't do it. Even though the price isn't that bad, we agree.

[Bill Simmons]

Because the difference with them in Houston, San Antonio has no reason to be desperate at all. What do they care, right? They have this amazing roster of assets and picks and all these other things. It's not like they're like, oh, we got to cap this off and get Durant. Whereas I look at Houston, I actually think Houston not only needs Durant, but becomes a really interesting team if they can add him and all they give up is Jabari and Jalen Green and Cam Whitmore, and they give Phoenix their pick back. I still really like the nucleus of their team. Like post trade, they would have Shengoon and Adams, they'd have KD and Amen Thompson, they'd have Eason and Brooks and Whitmore, they would have Van Vliet and Shepherd and the 10th pick. That's a lot to work with just to throw Durant. And what was the one thing they needed last year was a guy to score at the end of games. So it's a home run across the board. I think for them. I. If that was the price, and I just don't think San Antonio is going to top that from a price, so.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Well, he wanted Houston, apparently, last year. I don't know why Houston would be giving back that Phoenix unprotected pick that they were able to get in the Brooklyn thing, which has worked out for Houston, because at the time, it's like. I mean, I went through all the Houston, Brooklyn stuff when we did the show together, just almost, you know, almost exactly a year ago, it was like, what did Brooklyn do here? It's like, well, Brooklyn wasn't going to do the trade for Bridges unless they knew they could get their picks back. So you could sit there and say, well, you're giving up these valuable Brooklyn picks. It's like, well, you don't know what Brooklyn's going to do. They're not going to get rid of Bridges unless they know they're going to get their picks back. And then you're looking at, well, there's a chance, especially with Dallas winning. It's like, what if they had won the lottery? You know, like, Houston gives that pick back, but now it looks like Stone pulled off another one here because it's going to be four picks for the two you've made it through. The. The scary part of, like, where is.

[Bill Simmons]

That we both picked the trade for Houston, though. When that happened, we were like, cool. Like, they. They basically leveraged. They took advantage of Brooklyn kind of panicking, right? I think we like the trade for them.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Well, Brooklyn couldn't tank unless they knew they were getting their picks back. So they were paying a premium.

[Bill Simmons]

They're paying the vid.

[Ryan Rosillo]

But a year ago, the conversation and then in the fall was like, what if Brooklyn ends up, you know, they gave him that pick back, but it wasn't. It wasn't that. There was clearly the thing in front of it.

[Bill Simmons]

So you think that's too much for Durant to also include the Phoenix pick?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, I think Phoenix is a mess right now, like, not trending in the right direction, so why would I help them stabilize in front of that?

[Bill Simmons]

What if Phoenix says that's the only way you're getting Durant?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Then I'd be like, let's fucking Jabari this up.

[Bill Simmons]

I think I agree with you.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Although if you wouldn't trade.

[Bill Simmons]

I wouldn't trade Durant to Phoenix unless I got my own pick back. Like, if Houston's like, How about the 10th pick? I'd be like, no, want my pickback? I need my pickback.

[Ryan Rosillo]

When the deal happened last year and they have the 27 Phoenix pick that's unprotected, I thought that was the single most valuable asset in all this stuff. Yeah, and I don't know that. Look, if you would talk to us if we were having this conversation right after Game seven, where it's like, hey, guess what? Offense wasn't great in clutch moments. Like, it was Houston's, who saw that coming, right? This feels like a very solvable plug and play. Throw them in there. You'd wonder if you were Houston and you're talking to Phoenix going like, all right, well, what's. I mean, they don't know what the hell the rest of their plan is going to be. I mean, we got to keep reminding ourselves how quickly these things change. But the unknown of what that 27 pick could be, I'm not interested in doing that for somebody with kd. That isn't a complete. It's a slam dunk from the scoring thing in the fourth quarter for 25, 26, but it's an expensive 122 million for the years beyond that. And, you know, his habit of, you know, you really wish one of these picks that they had had turned into some sort of super polished closer in the fourth quarter. As much as you can love Amend Thompson, it probably feels like a reach to think that he's going to be closing playoff games and being their number one scoring option, and then Durant just eases up everything else for everybody else. I would be very reluctant to want to get rid of that 27 pick.

[Bill Simmons]

Or could you use a lot of those assets with something else and try to get somebody younger than Durant, like a Jaylen Brown, who I don't even know if is available.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Who do you think's more valuable, Jaylen Brown or Kevin Durant?

[Bill Simmons]

Jaylen Brown. It's not even close. He's 10 years younger. Right? I was looking at the durant stuff. He's 37 years old in September he's played 18 seasons. He's played 11, 11,023 games at 170 playoff games. So he's almost at 1300 combined games. He's played 41,000 regular season minutes, 7,000 playoff minutes. So he's getting close to 50,000. If you just look at the numbers of, hey, 37 and over, who's averaged 20 a game, it's LeBron, it's Karl Malone, it's Kareem, and it's that one Michael Jordan wizard season. So this is like the rarest of rare territory just to be good after this age. Right? And then you think said foot fracture, he had the Achilles, said some knee stuff seven feet tall, so there's that. But then on the other hand, in the 2000 and 20s, just this decade, he's averaging 28, 7 and 5, 53%, 42% from 3. Like, he's been pretty steady offensively. There's been some slight athletic signs of decline that I've seen just from like, the defense and rim protection. And I wouldn't say he's 2014 KD, but he's 88% there, 85%. I don't know. I just don't know how many more years he has left because NBA history says this isn't going to go in a great direction from here, you know, so that speaks to your Phoenix point. You're trading. You're not trading for a sure thing. Whereas if I'm trading for somebody like Jaylen Brown or even Desmond Bain, I know I'm getting like, the best years of their career right now with Duran, I don't know. I'm getting.

[Ryan Rosillo]

All fair. I mean, none of this is new to anybody that's paying attention to the league as much as his scoring is. Like, you're so enamored, but, like, run through all of the stuff. And by the way, I need to clean it. I knew as soon as I said it. Ginobi and, like, Duncan are the same age. But he didn't play for three years.

[Bill Simmons]

No, but he came in. He was in 03. He was.

[Ryan Rosillo]

But they're both.

[Bill Simmons]

Him and Parker were young and Duncan was.

[Ryan Rosillo]

My point still stands. Bad, bad little tidbit on that one based on the technicality of the same age. Anyway, here's the thing. Go through it all. Like, if I'm. If I'm stone in Houston, I'm like, okay, so what's your Miami offer? Right, It's Wiggins.

[Bill Simmons]

It's Wiggins. And where?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Well, I don't know if they'll do where it's Wiggins, one of the young guys we don't like, and then a pick and then maybe a swap. All right. Okay. What's Minnesota's offer? Go bear and defend Genso. Or it's. That's Dillingham. Is the. Is the exciting thing. Because, I mean, there's so many different problems that they have, especially if they have to wait in like a sign of.

[Bill Simmons]

Trade him in that I wouldn't put him in there. Would you?

[Ryan Rosillo]

I really like Durant in Minnesota. I could probably live with it, knowing how jammed up they are, but, I mean, we want to start running through, like, if they didn't do. I was looking at it this morning. I don't know how Minnesota, like goes from how expensive this team going to be and why they did the cat deal knowing that his numbers at the end. But I mean, if you were at an. At 49 million, this is in 25, 26.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Or maybe I did. I was doing. Yeah. KD at 60 million. Jaden at 26 million, which look five years, 130 million for him. You know, it's not. Not cheap. It's not terrible. Nas, the numbers on what that could be or what he wants.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm just guessing 30, right? 25 to 30, like minimum.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Great guess.

[Bill Simmons]

Nobody has ca. Nobody has free aging. I don't know who I guess from a cap space standpoint, maybe there's not a lot of people with cap space. Maybe he goes for 20, 25, I don't know.

[Ryan Rosillo]

So it's. If it's DiVincenzo and Gobert's out, and so that means Randall staying, which now you're like, okay, so who's playing center?

[Bill Simmons]

You didn't mention Alexander Walker yet, who's a unrestricted free agent. They're just going to punt on him.

[Ryan Rosillo]

To me, he's just gone. I mean, he doesn't. He doesn't work in any of this stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

I know, but that's. That's a loss. Even that.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I don't know how they were going to redo Randall and then sign Nas and then keep Alexander walking.

[Bill Simmons]

Would you redo Randall? I would not.

[Ryan Rosillo]

So you would just let him, what, opt in and we'll talk to you next year?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I would. I would play chicken with him.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, I think that's the right move there.

[Bill Simmons]

Brooklyn that has cap space. Is Brooklyn gonna sign Julius Randall?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Probably not totally aligned on that one. You just never know because sometimes they'll be like, all right, we're going to do this. And then you I. I don't. You know, again, we've seen different versions of this. Anyway, the point is, is let's keep Randall at that $30 million number on the player option. That's 190 million with those guys. So you're just below the first apron.

[Bill Simmons]

And I haven't even filled out seven spots.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, and I'm not counting the stuff, you know, some of the smaller stuff that's already on the books here with different roster stuff. So, again, back to the exercise of that 27 pick that's unprotected from Phoenix that Houston currently owns. And what's the Knicks deal? I like og I like Mitchell Robinson. I've never liked Mitchell Robinson more than I do right now. All right, that guy was a motherfucker in the playoffs. Knicks fans. I get it. I get it. All right. Like him to stay healthy. You can make the same health argument about Desmond Bane, by the way, but we've already done the Desmond Bain part of the pod. So what's Toronto's deal? Hey, do you want expensive former Knicks or expensive former Pelicans? We got you. All right, now. Not impossible. Not impossible. Maybe there's one guy in that group that the group in Phoenix actually really likes, and they feel like it's stable, and then they get a center out of it, and they're like, hey, Booker, we're going to try to do this, but what if. What if, whatever this is, as we're running through all these assets, you know, is Reed shepherd more valuable than the 27 unprotected? Potentially. Or maybe Houston still loves Reed shepherd so much they'd rather do something else, and maybe they'd rather trade the pick in 27 than even Reed Shepherd. I feel like if I'm Houston, I'm sitting on either the shepherd part of it, the 27, that's like. That's better than Gobert aging out at 35 million a year. That's better than Dillingham. That's better than whatever the Heat are going to throw at you here. It's probably better than Vassell and then Harrison Barnes.

[Bill Simmons]

They can throw at it, too. They don't have. They don't have to put in number 10 or they don't have to put in 2027.

[Ryan Rosillo]

You're right. They don't have to say, hey, Jalen.

[Bill Simmons]

Green is the second pick in the draft. Jabari.

[Ryan Rosillo]

They also have the two picks in 29, where they get the two best picks between Dallas, Phoenix, and, I believe, themselves in 29. So there's other avenues, okay? But as quick as these things happen, like, what if. What if Houston did the deal and it's Booker's like, this Jalen Green thing sucks, right? Or this isn't working out. And then you start realizing that Booker's like, hey, I tried it in the beginning. I was patient. The Chris Paul stuff was great. We tried it with these three guys. This sucks. Beal still hanging out? He just bought another condo in Scottsdale. He says, I'm never leaving.

[Bill Simmons]

Feel, feel joined another golf clubs.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I'm not going anywhere.

[Bill Simmons]

He's down to an 88 decap.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, he's. He's never felt better about his approach.

[Bill Simmons]

Short game is great right now.

[Ryan Rosillo]

There's just so many unknowns where I feel like all of us could, like, I just throw a pick in there. Throw a pick in there. If you compare it, and maybe there's another secret thing out there that's a really valuable piece. I mean, are you with me on this at all, or do you think I'm crazy?

[Bill Simmons]

No, I persuade me a little. The case for it would be, can we actually make the finals? If we make this trade, we still have an awesome nucleus. It's basically green and Jabari for Durant. And then we threw some other stuff in there that we can't use right now anyway, and that's the trade. But I think. I think the. Who are we bidding against? If San Antonio's like, ah, we're getting Dylan Harper, I don't know. And then Miami, I just don't think has the kind of assets to swim in this pool. Right. I guess they could throw a bunch of firsts down the road, but why are you doing that for Kevin Durant in his 19th season?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Here's another timeline to revisit. We've already touched on it. Last year, it was. You were hearing Durant wanted to go to Houston. So I feel good about him actually wanting to go there. And I imagine his team is telling whoever it is because there's no other option. This waiting six months for the extra 2 million, they're going to want to in the beginning of July, say, we need that two years, $122 million extension. Durant's like, cool, just pocket another.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought it was 112.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Excuse me? No, I thought it was an extra.

[Bill Simmons]

12 million if you waited six months. Either way.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I asked Bobby Marks this morning, so, okay, wow. I thought it was 122 versus 124.

[Bill Simmons]

He's going to grab the money. You're right. Why would he wait six months Well.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I saw it talked about a few times. I was like, I need to look that up. I mean, it's hard to keep track of all this shit, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Taxes, like. Like there's no point.

[Ryan Rosillo]

And I don't know if you've heard this, but there's no state income tax in Texas.

[Bill Simmons]

What?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Did you know this? Oh, yeah. Huge advantage for the stars. So he wanted Houston. Last year, there was a TV report that said they wanted a Phoenix, wanted to trade him. I was lucky enough to talk to somebody. We said it on the pod. I was like, I talked to somebody today. They're not trading. They're not trading. They didn't trade him. All right, this Minnesota thing happened before the deadline. Supposedly, Durant was kind of open to the Minnesota thing. Doesn't mean I'm right. And by the way, all of the things I'm about to say could be completely irrelevant. Golden State had the deal done and then found out, no, I don't want to go back there. So I've also seen it talked about where it's like, well, they want to do right by Durant this time around because he was left out of the process. If anything, you could argue that Golden State and Miami kind of went through the process of it all last year, or I should say this year, before the trade deadline. And then once they had something in place, instead of wasting his time and updating him and his team all the time, like, hey, we could do this. Do you want to do it? That's being involved. He says he didn't want to do it, so he can't really play the card of, like, he was left out of this process, and it was somewhat disrespectful. So whether or not he wanted to play with Ant want to go to Minnesota in February, I don't even know if that's true. It appears that's not what he wants to do now. It was cool that I heard it.

[Bill Simmons]

Was like a five or six team. It got too complicated. Was one of the issues. In February.

[Ryan Rosillo]

In February, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Because there was no way to do it.

[Ryan Rosillo]

What do you believe now? Do you think he wants. Do you think Minnesota. Because it's not brought up.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he wants to go to Texas.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I'd heard Minnesota, Miami and Texas are all the favorites at different points of the week. I would not rule out him wanting to be in Miami, but Miami feels like it's. I mean, unless they love Khalil Ware, which there's a lot of nice stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

From him, what's he doing in Miami? Other than he gets to live in Miami. What's going to happen?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Should we ask that question? Should we ask.

[Bill Simmons]

I just don't think you're. You're even in the Eastern finals with that nucleus, Nothing's happening. Houston is the only team that I feel like he could elevate. I even have real questions about him with Edwards, that feels dueling Banjos to me. We've seen.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Sometimes it is, and sometimes it's an awesome situation.

[Bill Simmons]

Another Booker situation where there's a lot of Durant standing in the corner, like, I guess I'm not in this one. And he has that weird body language thing. He gets going from time to time. I'll just be over here, guys. Whereas Houston, they'd be like, please take us home. Here's the ball. Eight minutes left. Do your thing. Like, they don't have anybody else other than Shangoon.

[Ryan Rosillo]

But it is funny how when teams have one option as that closing scorer and it's like, Manny needs help and that's what Ant needed. But looking at those possessions against the.

[Bill Simmons]

Disagree, I don't think he needed help. I think he needed a fucking point guard. That's what they need. I wouldn't. If I'm going to make trades, I'm not trading for Kevin Durant. I want to get like a somebody who can actually handle the ball and take pressure off Edwards and get fast breaks. Conley was in that OKC series. Conley looked like he was 50 years old. That was why they lost. They couldn't bring the ball up. Was it wasn't because they didn't have enough scoring. That's how I watched the series.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Conley Western Conference finals moment.

[Bill Simmons]

It was. I thought it was going to be bad. It was way worse. And listen, I just went to a second half of a Game four where Lou Dort was looking at Halbert, who's one of the best guards in the league, and was like, you're not dropping the ball over half court. I'm not letting you do it. So poor Mike Conley's 37. That was like his worst. He's probably in bed, like, fucking seeing nightmares of Lou Dort and Caruso. I think they need a point guard. I don't think Durant changes their destiny at all.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Okay. And there's also a funny thing that we've already touched on here before. Imagine if Houston gets Durant and is ramped up and it's 25 versus 2018. We're like, hey, we're the team best positioned to try to take on.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, it's like, we're rebooting this. Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Same situation, like, in 10 years from now, where there's just this epic player and he's on another team, and the guy's like, hey, Houston, do you want to be the one that goes in there first and tries to give this a shot?

[Bill Simmons]

So year 19 of Durant, I just don't think gets discussed enough in all this stuff. Now maybe he can keep it going for two more years, three more years. But this is. We are now at the point LeBron defied it. Karl Malone, who, even if the stats say he was still pretty awesome, if you actually watch those games post the two finals, he was at a slightly different point in his career. Jordan and the Wizards, Kareem near the end. Like, LeBron's the only one who's divided. And by the way, LeBron hasn't been in the Finals since 2020. So, you know, like, when you go to these games and you see how young and athletic everybody is, like, there's a reason for that. It's really hard to win four rounds in a row when you're an older player. It's almost impossible. The only reason Bill Russell was able to do 1969 was because the series were shorter and it was three rounds. Like, he didn't have to win 16 playoff games. I just think counting on old guys is really hard.

[Ryan Rosillo]

We agree. I mean, when you run through all this stuff, you don't need to. I think everybody listening for the most part, but it is still Durant and whoever gets to introduce him with a brand new jersey.

[Bill Simmons]

I think you're right. If they could be Jabari and Jalen Green, some other pick that's not the 10th pick or the Phoenix pick.

[Ryan Rosillo]

That's.

[Bill Simmons]

That's my offer. And if you can top it, so be it. Jalen Green's still young, had some really good moments in the week, and we both like Jabari, let's think.

[Ryan Rosillo]

But I'd like to see more from Jerry. Can I end with one last thing, though? Yeah, you just said it. Okay. He's been in the league this long, right? He hasn't been happy the last few stops. It makes sense because we think he cares about hooping so much that he would want to go someplace that at least has a chance to contend in the next year or whatever the next three, if he likely. I still would imagine he's going to get the extension. If teams are giving up. If you're giving up Jalen Green and Jabari, you probably still want control of the asset as opposed to like, well, let's see what happens in the summer of 26. I can't imagine any team wanting to do that, but would there be like a long form feature by Brian Windhorst if he ended up on Miami where it was like the role model Kevin Durant never thought he would have the Bradley Beal story and they're like, why South Beach, Kevin? He just goes, why the fuck not?

[Bill Simmons]

We'll take a break. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. Summer is here and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. What do I mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parmesan delivered. A day in the sun? No. A bottle of rum? Yes, Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now for alcohol. You must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. During the season, every baseball team plays 162 games. It's a true test of endurance. And it's not enough to have a hot month or two. You need sustained dominance throughout. Well, the same is true for your small business. It's not enough to have a great Q2 or even a great year. You want year over year growth that starts with better hires that'll be there for the long haul. To find Those hires, use LinkedIn. LinkedIn has strong hiring data and insights that you won't find anywhere else to help pair you with the best candidates, from unique skills and interests to the connections you have in common. Based on LinkedIn data, 72% of small businesses say that LinkedIn helps them find high quality talent. LinkedIn also lets you go beyond people who are actively applying. In a given week, 171 million LinkedIn members aren't actively seeking jobs, but they are open to new opportunities. That's a big pool to miss out on. If you're not hiring with LinkedIn. Find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com Simmons that's LinkedIn.com Simmons to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by McDonald's. All new McCrispy strips new McCrispy strips are here. Chicken made for dipping. Tender, juicy white meat chicken with a golden brown peppery breading. This sounds delicious. It's chicken. So good it deserves its own sauce. That's right, the Creamy Chili McCrispy Strawberry Strip Dip. It's creamy, savory and sweet with a little heat. But strips work with any of their sauces. I'm actually still a big fan of the buffalo sauce look. New McCrispy strips and dip sounds fantastic. And it's only at McDonald's. Quickly. San Antonio. I forgot to mention one thing. If they did trade the Aaron Fox and they just went Wemby, Harper, Castle, let's go. I'm just going to throw a couple of fake trades at you just for fun. Fox to Brooklyn for 8, 19 and 27. Does Brooklyn have a meeting?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, let's say that happens. Could they then flip 8, 14 and 27 and move up to 4 to Charlotte for. For our guy Knipple? Basically turning Fox and a Knipple with a couple other assets. Kind of fun.

[Ryan Rosillo]

That timeline would make sense. Much more like the analogy where I should have said Kawhi Leonard instead of Ginobi for Duncan. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Is there a Trey Murphy possibility where Fox could go to Brooklyn and then you take. You basically do the Bane trade with the extra picks, you have more stuff and try to get Trey Murphy from New Orleans, who I think is gettable if you just do the Bain price, maybe even more. That's the kind of trade I would rather see them do than Durant. There's one other one, though. Tell me what you think of this. They're keeping Fox. If they just dropped from 2 to 3 and got McCain in the trade from Philly, so they would still be picking a three and they could take Knippo or Trey Johnson or Ace Baylor, whatever they want and they get McCain. But I also don't feel like Philly's giving up quite enough. What is that trade for you? If it's McCain and three plus what to move up a spot.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Cork Moss. They still have his rights.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think they have his rights anymore. Or is that just a no go? You're not. You're keeping Harper.

[Ryan Rosillo]

No one in the NBA would trade out of the two into the three.

[Bill Simmons]

That's how I feel too. I just wanted to talk it out.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I don't think so.

[Bill Simmons]

Even if Utah was like, we'll give you marketing and five to move up to two and we'll throw in some extra stuff. They're still like, no, thank you.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. That's why I think they should trade the Aaron Fox. We got to talk finals. We're going to do a whole bunch of draft stuff, but I guess we'll do it next Sunday. I was prepped. I'll be Even more prepped next week. I have some people I will say, I'll leave you this little tidbit. Nemhardt's in my draft prep. Nemhardt's brother, who's like a late second rounder. I bought some stock. Ryan Nemhardt on Gonzaga. Average almost 10 assists a game last year. I watched some film. I like him. Only 5 11.

[Ryan Rosillo]

You're doing second rounders already?

[Bill Simmons]

I just. He was. I already had my sleeper the finals. What'd you see in game four? You didn't get to talk about it on pod.

[Ryan Rosillo]

There's a moment in the third quarter where I was very surprised to see how, just out of sorts, OKC was on offense again. And it was a lot of like, sga, can you come back and take the ball? Can you come back and take the ball? And it was the first moment in the entire finals where I was like, maybe this is actually going to happen. I mean, sometimes this stuff has to happen. Sometimes we have to have these great stories. This is why we keep coming back. The sports need to be unpredictable for us to continue to be entertained. Because what if. What if the ball just bounces the right way? And in that moment I'm like, what is up with this OKC offense? This is awful.

[Bill Simmons]

Felt the same way sitting in my seat. There was. It was like a five minute stretch where you're like, my God, this. This is gonna happen, right? Really? I really did feel it. It felt like they had kind of mentally broken OKC a little bit.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah. It wasn't the first quarter. It wasn't that building third quarter. It was that third quarter where I went, holy shit. Like, I had to like, almost just have a moment with myself being like, this might actually happen. And I think this is important because you didn't catch it. Because I want to get to you more than me, because I was at home watching it. But on the broadcast, it's like a six point game. But it felt like 12. It felt like the 12, like OKC's down six. And it feels like 12 against the Pacers. But that's just how impressive the Pacers had been. And on the broadcast, you have Doris, you have Breen, you have Richard Jefferson. And it's like, hey, this is still a six point game. And it was like nine minutes to go. But they were right. It would be easy if you didn't experience it in real time. It'd be right to be making fun of the announcers and be like, wait, why are you telling us it's a six point Game, as if anybody's changing the channel, but it. The control of the game just favored the Pacers. And it was so, like, aligned with what we saw in game three that you're. You're like, all right. I. I guess they just kind of figured this team out. And yet, like, why would I be doubting a 68 win team like OKC? Why would it be doubting this team that has the best point differential in NBA history and they're down 6 and you're like, kind of worried about them. And I thought the announcing crew did such a great job of relaying that vibe that it's only six points. It's only six. And they said it a couple different times. And instead of being critical of something that would seem like almost an observational mistake, it was the perfect way to sum up how the game felt. And then SGA happens a bunch of different stuff. You were there. What did you think?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I remember I turned. I was sitting with my friend Chen, and at one point, OKC was 1 for 12 from 3 in Indiana was 11 for 27. And they were up 8. So they were plus 10 on threes, but they were up 8. And we were just like, this is. I can't. We couldn't believe OKC was still in the game. It felt like they. Especially when that sequence when Toppin hit the two threes and the crowd went nuts, and it just felt like OKC was dying to be knocked out for about three minutes and they couldn't do it. And they hung around and they hung around. And then the only reason not to count them out was just how crazy the defense was. I said it. I went on Zach's pod Friday. I was saying, I. I don't think I've ever seen defense like that in person. I've seen rim protection defense that was as good. This was different. This was attacking whoever had the ball 50ft from the hoop and making it impossible for them to even start the offense. It was like shit you would see in, like, a high school game where some. Some crazy guy is like the. He's won 500 career games in Long island and he has this crazy press and the other team can't get it over half court. That's what it felt like. But it was Halliburton and Nemhardt. Like, these guys are good guards that are good ball handlers. And Dort was just standing there on the logo, just wiping people out. And then you have Caruso, and then you have Jalen Williams, who I thought was really, really awesome in that game and really took it to Siakam and just athletically that, that it just eventually won out. And I just. I thought Dort was the MVP. I said that the other day. I know SJ had 15 in the fourth quarter and came through in the end, but I thought what Dort did all game and the physicality and the intensity and just how he kept fucking with Halberton, really hard to do. He's the first guy all playoffs who's kind of slowed down Halbert to the point where if you're on a show going, they need. Halbert needs to step up. It's like you're not watching. You don't understand what's happening with this. Like, Lou Dort is impossible to go by. So I thought that was why they won. And then sga, I didn't see. So when we were sitting in the seats, that after the three that push off shot where he traveled, I just didn't see that angle. That was an amazing no call. We didn't cover that. On the Friday night thing. That was really rough because he definitely pushed off and he definitely traveled and Foster was just staring at it. Didn't do anything. Really tough call.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Do you want to talk about the extender?

[Bill Simmons]

He was bad for both teams. There was no. I talked about it Friday night. There was no rhyme or reason for the calls. There was touch fouls being called. There was Dort and Caruso just kind of shoving guys away at mid court to get the ball or create steals or running through picks. I just, I didn't understand what a foul was in that game. They're bad for everybody. Both coaches were mad, both benches were mad. It was just all over the place.

[Ryan Rosillo]

The two SGA plays that everybody has talked about. I don't think officiating had anything to do with the game. I rarely do. But I don't like rewarding the offensive player for initiating that contact on Niecemith on the one at the free throw line. But E. Smith is also on a heater of fouling, which is to be expected. He's averaging over five fouls per 36 minutes, which, oof, according to NBA.com is the highest foul rate of any player who's played 175 minutes or more. But that's how Niece Smith plays. But it's very. It's playing out like that regular season game that I keep referencing. There was. There are a few things that I thought, okay, oh, that's interesting. That's interesting. Is that whether it's Jalen Williams or SGA and it's really when Jalen Williams gets him, he's like, I'm going to kill Nick. So N. Smith, this hyperactive physical defender, Jalen Williams is like, you have nothing for me. Okay. And to the point where they were running that two man game, which is something that if you track it, there's not a lot of on ball screens being set by SGA throughout the course of the regular season. And that he and Jalen Williams started doing it for each other. And the hope was to get NE Smith because they needed to get Nemar off of Halliburton.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

So there's this. And everybody's been talking about this now. Yeah, yeah, excuse me. SGA trying to get him off of sga. Just doing such a good job with it. But they started working this like two man thing and setting screens in ways that it's just not something that they normally do, which is, you know, look, the Pacers be ready for it in game five. They want to go back to that kind of stuff. But the whole point of it is let's get NE Smith in the action. Let's get NE Smith in the action. And yeah, there was a lot of free throws and everything, but I want to stay on this because I, I've heard about it so much, especially with Scott Foster being involved in it. A part of this game that's a little easier to miss is that the Thunder were called for four fouls on defensive rebounds within six minutes of the fourth quarter. And there was a fifth foul on Niecemith. So for the whole idea of that, hey, let's extend this series. Let's get OKC back to 2, 2 and all that kind of shit. That's why Foster's on the game. They called five fouls on the Thunder and got the Pacers into the bonus with over six minutes to go. And again, four of them, I don't know that I've seen that very often. Four fouls on the Thunder just trying to box out. And I'm not arguing that they were or weren't fouls, but I think on a lot of box out stuff, you can find more fouls there if you want to. It's like college officials, they'll just pick a game in the tournament, decide to call all of them. You're like, how come this first quarter.

[Bill Simmons]

So that was on our basket and they definitely were doing this mauling technique of the rebounds. But what that was, that speaks to my point from earlier. They started calling stuff in the fourth quarter that they didn't call for the first three quarters, I hate that the most.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Well, this game, there was no consistency.

[Bill Simmons]

To anything that was happening.

[Ryan Rosillo]

The two Pacers games, or at least at Indiana, it. It felt like there's so much effort in that first half. Yeah, that and it might be even a little underplay. We'll see, you know, what happens here in game six in the second half. But you can. You can almost see the guys exhausted on both sides. Like, I thought Chet was spent in game three. I thought Chet was so good defensively. He was getting into switches. He was holding up against perimeter players. He's contesting shots like Halliburton got him one side. So I look, I thought that was kind of interesting in the free throw part of it, it's like, okay, I understand this team lost, so it's all about the free throws. I hated the baseline thing with sga. I don't like that Niecemith Fou. But it is a foul and all that stuff. But there's another, like, Dagol part of this is that he. They clearly don't like Hartenstein because he's a target for the Pacers. When he's in, he's targeted. And let's face it, he's a nice player. He's been a fucking zero on offense for this entire series. And him holding the ball 30ft away, waiting to do some sort of dribble handoff thing in a playoff game when everybody's flying around at full speed. That stuff looks all right. In the regular season, it's kind of a waste of time in these playoff games. It kind of slows everything down, the way everybody's hedging against all this stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

I said that to Zach on Friday night. He's become a backup center, and I don't feel like he was during this season. Yeah, in this series and a little bit last series too.

[Ryan Rosillo]

You know what I mean? Look at the game logs in the minutes like they. They're pulling away from it. You could argue. Some games it's just Chet has it going. Chad had the two follow dunks too, on top of the really good defense because, you know, he closed really poorly after a great start in Game 3. Didn't play that well. But at that 6:09 foul, the fifth team foul against OKC, another defensive rebound thing. Dagnall went to the double big, and I was like, he must, like hit that. Staff has to be going, can we grab a board? Can we grab a board in this game to close this thing out? Went double big for just about two minutes. Little under that. And I don't know if it's settled, but clearly, you know, look, Caruso's the preferable guy as opposed to the double big against this stuff, because I think they worry about Hardenstein being a target. But it almost felt like in those two minutes when he went double big, his main concern was, we got to figure out a way to try to control the defensive glass here. And we're not closing six minutes of double big. But let's just. Let's try to change our physicality here for a couple minutes, because our guys are getting eaten up just trying to box him.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he was trying to help out Chet, too, a little bit. Cause he didn't want to take Chet out. So it was like, I'll give you a little added muscle for a couple minutes here. Jalen Williams was the only guy on that team that didn't look tired in that game. Because sga, you know, they played Wednesday night, and that Wednesday night game was a brutal game.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Brutal game. Oh, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So they're 48 hours later. Indiana looked fresher than. Than OKC for the most part. But they're also home. You get energy from home. But Jalen Williams was the one in that team. That. And Dort, who Dort is, like, he's not even human. I just thought my big takeaway from just seeing that in person for those two days is just how unique Dort is. Because I was thinking before the playoffs, like, all right, if they win the title, they got to pay these guys. Maybe they'll trade Dort. Wallace can take his minutes. Dort is untradeable for me, like, with the toughness and physicality and all the stuff he does for them. I don't think they have anyone on the roster to replace it. To just have somebody who can wipe out the best guy on the other team and make it. Like, even when Halliburton was scoring, they were like, you know, flying down the lane, layups where he had to, like, throw it high off the backboard with some spin on it just to, like, make the shot. Like, it was nothing was easy for them. And that's why they won the game, and that's why they're going to win the title. I think I just feel like Indiana missed their chance. They had it. They had it in that third quarter. I felt that way when I left. I felt that way on Friday night. And we talked about it, and, you know, it was 80. It felt like it was 86 to 76 for two, three minutes there. And they just couldn't extend it to 15. If it gets to 15. OKC wasn't making threes. They're not coming back from that, you know, but they just couldn't get the hump high enough. And I don't know what the fixes are either because we've seen with some of these games when you kind of unlock the other team, it just kind of gets worse as the series goes along. I think the Warriors Celtics series in 22 is a good kind of parallel to that. Just everything you got worried about just starts to get worse and worse as it goes. I think they've figured out if they're not going to call those fouls on Dort and Caruso at half court with how physical they're being, it's going to be really hard for Indiana run offense like that. Remember that part where they're putting Siakam 40ft from the basket and he was trying to go one on one and they were. OKC was like, really? This is. You're doing this? No, thanks. The only wild card is Matheran to just. He seems like, you know, and he's the ultimate trick or treat guy. But that's the one where I felt like they should have thrown him in. In the fourth quarter, they were so stale. It was so hard for them to do anything. They kind of needed the wild card heat check, irrational confidence guy.

[Ryan Rosillo]

It feels like a quarterback avoiding pressure and then like getting back to the line of scrimmage and then thinking he has, like another chance at the same play. They'd be scrambling, it would all get shut off, and then it'd be like, all right, Halliburton. Now it's like started all over again. And I didn't have any issues with him. And Siakam had such a terrific game, like, completely well rounded with the steals, the assists, the boards, the shooting wasn't great. But the problem is it's like, okay, but now you're taking. You've had this really nice game and you kind of need to be like a number two scoring option with some of this stuff. And I know everybody's going to think that I'm just kind of on his ass again, but you know, the variance of. Of noticing him to then going, oh, did he. Did he take one shot in the.

[Bill Simmons]

Fourth quarter in the second half? Well, that, I mean, once they took away their fast breaks and slowed the pace down.

[Ryan Rosillo]

The pace, by the way, has been like a non factor. Maybe you can say they pushed it a little bit more in game three, but, like, if you look at the pace numbers Game by game, it's 102, 97 and a half. 100.

[Bill Simmons]

The full games though the first half of game four, especially for the first like quarter and a half, Indy had to have been delighted because okc, this is what Indy does over and over again. They pull you into how they want to play and OKC was doing it and then they backed off.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I think OKC is fine playing at a pace. They played at a faster pace than the Pacers have for the entire playoffs. They've had a lead now going into the fourth quarter. The first three games they didn't have it. They come back. The storylines that I touched on after they were down two, one is like all of these storylines that are potentially in play of doing the obituary on what this Thunders team ended up being, right? If they had lost this series, who knows, they could still lose this series. I'm at a point now where certainly I'm not going to like change my pick or anything, but this Pacers team is more real in this, in this final series than I certainly thought and a lot of us thought. But you know, the too young thing, right? Or they didn't play in enough clutch games and it's like, man, if they were too young, doesn't that show up in Game 7 against Denver? Doesn't it show up? I thought that Game 4 win against Minnesota was just a, just an absolute like ballsy we are here type of win. And so you come back and you win this game for like, if the Pacers were to win this, are you allowed to say that it was, oh, because the Thunder were too young. If they're too young, they don't come back in game four of this series.

[Bill Simmons]

The two young thing comes with going three for 17 from three and having 10 assists.

[Ryan Rosillo]

But they didn't shoot it well. They didn't shoot it well.

[Bill Simmons]

Some of their young guys were mia, like people like Wiggins, Wallace. Those are the guys that when you're talking about too young, they're just not getting stuff from the roll guys. That's why Caruso was so huge in that game. I mean, Caruso, you know, he might make the hall of Fame now. Michael Cooper made it.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Does Siaka make the hall of Fame?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know.

[Ryan Rosillo]

The answer is yes, he probably does.

[Bill Simmons]

Second best guy in a finals team might be on pace for like almost 20,000 points.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Do you know where OKC is right now as far as three point shooting in the playoffs where 13th out of 16 teams, they shot it well against Minnesota, they did not shoot it great the first two series. And that's another thing that's so scary about this team is that, I mean, I wonder where they'll be historically as a three point shooting team if they stay at some of these numbers and they have another bad shooting night. Like, they're in that game. And I'm glad that you brought up that math because you're like, something feels wrong here. They're going to. They're going to be 1 to 12.

[Bill Simmons]

Just doesn't resemble the basketball we watch in 2025. When somebody could be that bad from 3 and be in the game, that's usually a death note.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Okay, another observation, because when the Thunder are not talking to each other, only Caruso is the guy with any energy on the bench. And they're down and they look lost in that body language.

[Bill Simmons]

Doc is right there just studying everything.

[Ryan Rosillo]

You're on the case.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

It is used against them. It's like, who's. You know, you start thinking like, hey, who's their Draymond Green? Like, where's their emotional leader? Where's their badass? Is this too subdued a group of players?

[Bill Simmons]

You know, that wasn't what I was thinking. I was thinking more like these guys have all the same type of personality where they're just like. They just go. The only thing I really noticed.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Would you have said that if they lost?

[Bill Simmons]

No. The only thing I thought was that they seemed tired. Like, Chet looked like he was going to keel over. Like, for real. All the young guys, like people like Wallace and guys like that, it just. You could just tell they weren't going to get anything from those guys. But Caruso, I thought was, you know, really seems like he's the glue to everything. And then sga, they never bailed on him. He took him out for that one minute and he got the fourth foul and he looked tired. There's no question. He didn't have a good first half.

[Ryan Rosillo]

They said it after. So, yeah, like, I think Dangald even had said, you know, he wasn't having the best game, and then he was going to have to work through it and we're going to have to figure a way to get Nemhar off of him, you know?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And then Jalen Williams, I thought, you know, the fact that he can do what he does. But that team, they're just a bunch of dudes that, you know, they're like an. Like a football team that just kind of goes out. It's like, you're not getting a first down right now. You know, these Have a vibe to them. It's hard to explain. I think they specifically pick certain type of personality types, and that's who they look at and go after. Like, Draymond wouldn't make sense on that team. I don't think they would ever have a guy like that kind of boisterous type of, you know, big alpha personality. It's not the kind of team they have. Even Dagnal, when you watch him, like, he got mad at the refs for him at one point, and mad at him and the refs is just him, like, making a face and putting his hands out. He's not like a screamer. Everything they do, and I think they do a lot of stuff after the games, which has been talked about, about how they. They constantly barrage the NBA with like, clips and stuff like that. But I think on the court, even afterwards, I thought it was interesting. Dagnaut said, I thought they called a good game. They could have called even more fouls. Did you hear that quote he had? Like, they're very careful about not pissing off the refs or showing them up. Halburn, when he got fouled that one time, and he did, he was doing, though, holding his hands up and I don't know. Refs hate that. This has been Jason Tatum's problem for the last three years when he does that sarcastic wave at the refs, like, they hate that. Okay, so he doesn't do any of that stuff. Ant's another one.

[Ryan Rosillo]

And just every single baseline on the way up, it's like, before I get my balance back, I'm gonna. This guy, Hal Burton, had every right to be upset.

[Bill Simmons]

He just gets called a little differently than most stars. I would, I would just the default.

[Ryan Rosillo]

That it's always the refs. It's always the refs. It's always the refs. And you just go like, all right, well, you want to go through. Do you want. You want me to file? You want me to find a Nemhardt foul that wasn't called?

[Bill Simmons]

But you didn't think that was a well called game? I thought that game. I thought the flow of that game was a fucking mess. It was. Really, really. Compared to the other games that we've had that was like a mess on both sides.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I thought the game just became very different.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

The way it was.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, what do you expect in game five?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Well, it's nice to see the fourth quarter defense that we'd expect from the Thunder to show up. Although I still think the Pacers defense in Game 3 of that fourth quarter was more impressive than when they pulled that game out. I thought what they were doing on defense, like that was that game three thing. I'm just telling you, game three Pacers, it changes the way I feel about them in the East.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Going into next year.

[Bill Simmons]

You drafted him number one.

[Ryan Rosillo]

We finally got there, boys and girls. Took me three games the NBA Finals. But it was, it was pretty special. But unfortunately for, for Pacers fans, not the case in game four. And the whole time, the whole time going into this is like, I just think that Thunder defense is going to be too hard to solve for four wins. And that's how I feel about it still. I mean, you know, here's the thing is going home. OKC just feels, dude knocked down like 14, 15 threes here in one of these games.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, this f. This has a 29 point blowout vibes. I also wonder like everything was going so magically for Indiana for two months there. And that was the first game where like Halberton does the little step back when they really need it. The, you know, the dribble, dribble, dribble, three step back. And it was an air ball. It was, it was almost like the clock hit midnight for them in that fourth quarter in so many different ways. But I do think, I do think they have some moves. Like some things have worked. Okc, they've lost some trust in a couple guys. Like they're basically down to six and a half guys now. That's a good sign for Indiana and for Indiana. Like they've had different guys play well the whole series. I don't feel like the only guy they seem like they've lost confidence in is Thomas Bryant. Everybody else is.

[Ryan Rosillo]

They had already lost moments. Yeah, I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

I guess they re lost it, but they need. If I was them, I would have been sending just clips of Dort and Crusoe mauling my guards at mid court. I would have sent a whole highlight video of like, hey, are they allowed to do this? Just check in? Because I thought that was. I thought they got away with physicality, which they should do because if you're getting away with it, do it, you know. But man, that's the story of the series. Is that the Caruso trade, what it did for them when you actually go in against them, when they ramp it up is the scariest thing in the league. And that's probably why they're going to win the title.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Do you remember, and I'm not trying to put you on this, the energy that OKC came Out with defensively, the first touch that Halliburton got, it was just swarming. I think they sent two at him, and it was, like, intense. Granted, when you're freshest, the game's just tipped. And I was like, oh, what's going on here? And then the Pacers survive it, and you're going, all right. You know, like, it was so I. I almost was wondering, like, are they just. This is like blitzing on the first drop back of the NFL game and be like, hey, let's just do something so that they know we're coming today. And, like, we're gonna do this because, like, the first play was so much energy defensively, so. Well, you're not gonna be able to keep doing that kind of stuff. Like, this is insane how hard you're going just on this trap. And Pacers feel great about themselves. Thundercand knocked down a shot. Yeah, there's a bunch of positions, and you're right. Like, Wiggins coming in isn't pretty. Wallace got caught up, like, in between a decision there in the fourth quarter. On one play, we're like, okay, that's like a sign of somebody. Not necessarily.

[Bill Simmons]

They weren't guarding him either. They, like, if he was out there, they were just playing off him. Hartenstein, he feels like he's lost confidence. But this is what happens when we get to the finals. You start. Guys start falling off in the battlefield, and you end up with five guys, six guys left. I'm glad you brought up football, because it really was what OKC reminded me of, watching them. It was like watching an awesome defense just put everyone on the line, knowing that their cornerbacks could. Could defend any receiver, and just like, going. And at some point, you're like, oh, my God. I don't know.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I.

[Bill Simmons]

Like. We didn't know what Indiana should do in the fourth quarter. It got to that point, like, I don't know, they can't get within 40ft of the basket. I don't know what the move is.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Like, it was like watching Checkmated on the left side. Cause I think because he had SGA, but it was like 15ft out.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

And then he was just kind of dribbling. You're like, what the fuck is this play gonna be?

[Bill Simmons]

Because that was every play he was.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Turned and he didn't have enough time. And it wasn't like a straight line drive or anything. He was kind of turned. Turner had a couple threes where it looked like he wasn't in a hurry to get those off. And then Nemhart will. When Halliburton gets stuck, Nemhardt's the guy. It's like, I'll shoot like I'm good to go. And then usually Nismit's good for a three or two that you're just like, okay, these are. He had that huge one in, in game three.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, not, not yesterday. Turner's the wild card because, you know, obviously they have to win one of these next two in OKC to win the title. Plus the one at home. And the way Turner looked in those two indie games. If he's going to play like that, there's just no chance because they were giving him the wide open shots at the top. They were happy with them. He wasn't making them. My guess would be OKC is going to win the next two. I hate counting out Indiana like that, but I just feel like that OKC solved something in those last two. And then the closer you get, the more you can smell it. And anything you're doing is going to be ramped up anyway. Once you get like really close to the title, you're going to be. It's going to be the craziest version of yourself. Right. And the craziest version of okc. I don't think Indiana can. Could score against. So I feel like they missed. This episode is brought to you by Altra Running. Every pair of Altra shoes has a roomy toe box and zero to low drop which lets your toes spread and keeps your foot in a more natural position. All in the name of comfort and performance with a variety of styles. There's a shoe for everyone. It's comfort you have to feel to believe. Try Altra for yourself with a free 30 day trial and free [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by Yeti. Summer is basically here and if you're getting outside, you need to check out YETI Hard coolers. They're built like tanks, super durable. They hold ice for days like they're tundra 65 iconic for a reason. Just an absolute beast for tailgates or tournaments. The Roadie 32 wheeled cooler. That one's awesome. You can pack it with a ton. Just roll it along. And if you want something super, super portable, the Roadie 15 is perfect. It even fits wine bottles. Find your cooler and gear up for summer with YETI Hard Coolers. A shot. All right, so you're covering. You got Tuesday, Thursday this week.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, we got a lot of stuff. I don't know what we're going to run. We got a little F1 for you, Ron Chernow.

[Bill Simmons]

You excited for the movie?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, definitely.

[Bill Simmons]

I really am. Every time I'm excited for the movie.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Oh. Because I haven't seen the Chernobyl movie trailer. Yeah, the F1.

[Bill Simmons]

Brad, that looks great.

[Ryan Rosillo]

You're so. I was thinking about you the other.

[Bill Simmons]

Day, how easy I am to please with the trailer.

[Ryan Rosillo]

That wasn't the thought. But there's these things that you love that I'll know that you're gonna love, but then you'll just shock the world. Yeah. And be like. It's kind of like your Star wars position. Be like. You like wrestling? You like.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Top Gun.

[Bill Simmons]

Yep.

[Ryan Rosillo]

You know, and it's like. But you don't like Star Wars.

[Bill Simmons]

Then there's like, not like Star Wars. I just never got into it. The. The one. That one. I can't. The line I can't cross is Wes Anderson movies. I just don't get it. Not for me.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I watched Tenenbaums the other night.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, not for me. I'm not against them. Just not for me.

[Ryan Rosillo]

It's an Owen Wilson fest over at this place. Jumping back and forth between stick and Tenenbaums.

[Bill Simmons]

Summertime. Let's go.

[Ryan Rosillo]

You've never seen. You've never seen Rushmore.

[Bill Simmons]

I've seen Rushmore. I've seen Tannenbaums.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

So, Steve Zissou, when we lost you.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm not like, no. Yeah. It's just like, you know, I'm putting together the Blu Ray collection. There's no Wes Anderson yet.

[Ryan Rosillo]

You don't think Rushmore is a rewatchable?

[Bill Simmons]

I think we did it already. I don't think I was on it.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Good.

[Bill Simmons]

You're going to be on one this summer.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Hopefully.

[Bill Simmons]

We're planning.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I might even go to Scotland.

[Bill Simmons]

You're a hard guy to book. You know, you call to see if you're in and you're like, just on your way to some strange country.

[Ryan Rosillo]

It's going to get real strange this summer.

[Bill Simmons]

Can I tell you what I did in India on Fanduel? A lot of Pat's bets, including Mike Vrabel for coach of the year, plus 750.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I couldn't resist.

[Bill Simmons]

Pat's over nine and a half. Sure. Pat. Five to win for the division with Kansas City and Philly. Okay, I'll parlay that.

[Ryan Rosillo]

When you were hanging out with guys, you're like, I have to go home and hammer this Rabel bet.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. It's like, guys, it's been great. I gotta go. Indy does close pretty early, though. It's surprising. I really like Indy. There's things. No, it didn't.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Let me double check if that place is still open. Stanford, Steve and I went to Ike and Jonesy's one night. I think they were like, hey, can we get a beer? And there were just cups or like, grab as many as you want.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think there's a more resillo city on the planet than Indy.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Come on.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. No, for. For, like, if you came for a game, I think you'd have a great time.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I have. I've been to India a million times.

[Bill Simmons]

Pacers playoffs.

[Ryan Rosillo]

No, did. Did the super bowl there. We did.

[Bill Simmons]

Hardcore. Hardcore basketball fans, man. It's our people. They're all there. Just love basketball.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Stanford, Steve and I drove over to Butler to check it out, and then it was pretty obvious because there was a rack of balls and the guy was looking at us. He's like, how bad do you want to get a couple shots up? And it was like, insanely bad. He was like, yeah, you're not supposed to, but like, you can. No problem. Which was a lot different than when we were at UNC and Roy Williams told me I could get shots up. After the practice was over, I was like, all right, no problem. And then somebody came over and screamed at me like, what are you doing? And I was like, roy said it was fine. And she was like, okay. Turned around. That's all I needed to know. That was like the time anytime I was at Eugene, be like, what are you doing in this? And I'd be like, chip said it was fine. Like, okay, that's a good. That's a good thing to have. Anyway, the point is, is that Indy. We drove out to go see Tom Crean coach the Hoosiers. So Van Pelt and I drove out to Bloomington, and we spent the afternoon there. Got out of there pretty quick. So I can't say that I know Bloomington super well. But then I did a bunch of Big Ten championship games. We did the Wisconsin win.

[Bill Simmons]

There was another one for a Pacers playoff game. A couple people mentioned it.

[Ryan Rosillo]

My approval rating is not very high in that state after the college football season. So I think I have indie back.

[Bill Simmons]

The Pacers thing now. Now that you've circled back with the Pacers, I think. I think big comeback is I want.

[Ryan Rosillo]

To push back a little bit that it feels like a Rosillo town, because I don't.

[Bill Simmons]

Why?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Just.

[Bill Simmons]

They love sports.

[Ryan Rosillo]

That's true.

[Bill Simmons]

Real American people.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah. No, I like that. Salt of the earth.

[Bill Simmons]

My only criticism is the St Elmo shrimp. I don't like when you're touting the food. And it's good. It's fine. But if it's going to be, like, a marketing thing, I really want to have my socks knocked off. And it's not there. I'm sorry.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Van Pelt hated it as much as any single person has ever hated anything.

[Bill Simmons]

The St. Elmo shrimp.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, he. Cause I'd had it. Stanford Steve and I probably got in earlier. Van Pelt would get there when he needed to get there. And then I think we went back again, and it really becomes the hang, too, you know, it's not just the restaurant.

[Bill Simmons]

It's hang, multiple floors. There's nooks and crannies. You go around. Yeah, it's good.

[Ryan Rosillo]

And no one loves St. Elmo's more than you do. So Van Pelt's sitting there, and he was like. We're watching him about to eat it, and he's looking at us. He's like, what? What. What's going to happen? Is it really hot or something? It's really hot. Like, are you guys fucking with me? And we were like, just eat the shrimp, dude. It's not that big of a deal. And he, like, kind of like halfway through, a couple chomps, spits it right out, was like, this is. What is that? Like, it's horseradish. You know, it's. It's. That's the whole thing. It's kind of clears you out a little bit. He's like, that's. That's the dumbest thing ever invented. He was so mad. He's so mad about it. It might have been the first time he didn't pay for the dinner. Because his thing is, he always pays for every dinner, no matter what, all the time. And I think that night, he may have just been like, protest.

[Bill Simmons]

I went for drinks there, and I ordered a ranch water.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Oh, look at you, Yellowstone.

[Bill Simmons]

It's tequila. For the people listening. Tequila, club soda, and lime. They brought the ranch water. They brought me a glass. It was like a triple tequila with a little bottle of club soda next to it. And tequila had lime in it. I'm like. And they're like, watch. And the waitress said, watch out for this. That's all tequila. And I'm like, I ordered a ranch water. And she's like, this is how we serve it here. So they make giant glass and tequila, not the premium. Put some lime in it, and then I can pour the club soda in if I want. Yeah, it's their version of it.

[Ryan Rosillo]

It's also called the Tequila soda. I believe in other places it's called.

[Bill Simmons]

The don't drive after you have this. I think was the actual, actual thing for it. But it was pretty impressive. Anyway. All right, Rossillo, I'll see you in a week. We gotta do the finals will probably be over by then. There's a chance we'll be coming on after Game 7 of the NBA Finals a week from now. Can't be ruled out.

[Ryan Rosillo]

You're the biggest Pacers believe you and winhorst guys looking at property there China.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think it's going to be a Game 5 for them, but it would have to be a game six. One last awesome.

[Ryan Rosillo]

You were just there two days. How can you not believe after you were in that building?

[Bill Simmons]

I Lou Dort psyched me out. That's what happened. But so we'll be Sunday night at some point.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Anyone say anything offensive to you in person?

[Bill Simmons]

No. People were great. Indiana's great.

[Ryan Rosillo]

All right.

[Bill Simmons]

Thanks to Eduardo and everybody else behind the scenes as well. Don't forget, Rewatchable's coming Tuesday, and I think I'm gonna have something else tomorrow night. So we'll see. Anyway, bye, Russell.

[Ryan Rosillo]

See Y.

[Bill Simmons]

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