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The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: An NBA Midseason Power Poll, Plus OSU vs. Notre Dame with Joel Anderson and Van Lathan
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Bill Simmons
Coming up, I have an NBA mid season power poll plus college football. A lot of it. Next this episode is brought to you by Unstoppable. If you're a fan of classic sports films, you're gonna love this new one. It's called Unstoppable. It tells the true story of Anthony Robles, who overcame so much in his life to become a national wrestling champion. Directed by William Goldenberg and from Amazon, MGM Studios, you've got a star studded ensemble cast here including Jharrel Jerome, My Guy, Don Cheadle, Michael Pena, Bobby Cannavale, and of course Jennifer Lopez, who plays Judy, the loving mom whose unwavering support helps Anthony defy the odds. Watch Unstoppable now exclusively on Amazon Prime Video. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. State Farm helps you score an affordable price when you choose to bundle home and auto insurance with the personal price plan. Bundling home and auto, that's a pro move. Just another way you can save on your insurance needs. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can bundle and save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. I don't have a new rewatchables for you this week. We did record a long giant mailbag that we're gonna run on Monday's episode and then we'll be back to normal schedule after that. So thanks for your patience on that one. You can also check out The Ringer Movies YouTube channel for a lot of the old rewatchables we've done. As well as the Spotify archives. We're also brought to you by FanDuel Sportsbook where we're still doing 30 on 30. It's a profit boost token. We do it on Fridays. Any 30 plus point score or 30 on 30 special bet gets boosted with a little profit boost. Like for instance Shay Gilgis Alexander is playing Dallas on Friday, the team that knocked him out of the playoffs. They don't have Luca. If you think he's going to get a little revenge game, just put a little 30 plus on it. Get the profit boost token and all is great. So look for 30 on 30 on the FanDuel Sportsbook app coming up on this podcast. It's basically mid season NBA. So I wanted to get down a giant power pole and count down everybody from 30 to 1 so we did that and it took longer than I thought. Sorry, I had a lot to say. Followed by Joel Anderson, recent addition to the Ringer, who we're going to talk sports culture and a lot of college football. Then Van Lathan comes in to talk about the championship game and Joel's five favorite things in college football. So. So that is part one of this podcast because I'm going to do a part two later with NFL and million dollar picks. That's going to go up, I don't know, 10, 11 hours from now. So that is the schedule. Everything is okay here in Southern California. Definitely better than it was three days ago. Still terrible. But we got through all the wins on Tuesday and Wednesday and now the recovery and all that stuff is in full swing. I'm going to talk about some charities and stuff that I like in part two of the podcast. So here's part one. Going to do the mid season power poll one second. First, our friends from Pro Jam. It's the January 16th, almost mid season NBA power poll. We're gonna go from team number 30 all the way down to team number one separated by sections. I'm gonna get off a bunch of takes. So going backwards, there's five teams that are just openly tanking right now. I'm putting them in the capture the flag territory for Cooper flag. Getting a lot of buzz lately that Cooper flag. I don't care. They just 6 foot 7. He's gonna be awesome. Washington 6 and 32, Charlotte 9 and 28. Toronto 10 and 31. Utah 10 and 29. That's our 30 to 27 rankings. What's interesting is none of those teams really have an awesome trade piece. Utah has a couple smaller ones like Sexton's interesting Clarkson, although he's not having a great year. Brooklyn at number 26 is our big entry for this. They're 14 and 27. They lost by 59 points last night and it felt worse. Cam Johnson would be the potential move for them. Pretty decent contract. We've talked about it before on the podcast. It's basically 22 million a year for a couple years. Could he go to Memphis for Smart and Laravia to first and protect first baby. I couldn't find a lot of trades for him because a lot of teams don't have contracts to patch together around that mid-20s stuff. Or if they do like some of the second apron teams, what they're sending out has to be more than what Cam Johnson makes. It's a little complicated, but Memphis was the one team I was kind of looking At a fun topic with the Nets is what's Ben Simmons's next contract? Probably minimum. Would somebody get frisky around like July 6th and be like, ah, Ben Simmons, all NBA a couple years ago and all of a sudden he's making two years for 20. Who knows? I really like this draft though, and I'm just starting to get into it. Once football ends, I'm going to throw myself into it a little bit more because it's, it's fun. But flag love two Rucker kids, the Lithuanian kid at Illinois. I think there's real stakes and I think we're going to see some, some pretty incredible tanking as we go down the stretch. The next category is the Pre Tankers, which includes Portland. At 25, they're 13 and 26. If you catch them on the right night, they look pretty good. It's a weird team. They remind me of when you go through like one of those old basketball handbooks or like Basketball Reference and you go to like the 1979 season. You just look at the players on teams. You're like, that's an interesting team. What were they thinking there? They have three centers and no point guards and eight wings. What the hell was this team? That's kind of Portland right now. I also think DeAndre Ayton probably should have played in 1979. Might have been a better year for him. I don't know what this team is. I don't know what the point of it is and I'm not sure they know either. I don't know what the trades are. Ayton is now untradable. I think he's been, he's been pretty bad. Scoot is the one they have to figure out if they can unlock as an asset. He had 39 points two nights ago. My stock broker called me immediately. But before that, 39 point game was trending toward the most wrong I've ever been about a lottery pick in the last 35 years. And I actually made a list I went through and I tried to remember guys that I was super high on and why didn't it work out. Going backwards, I think these were the biggest misses for me. Wiseman 2020. Not 100% my fault. Mostly my fault. Not 100% my fault. It was the COVID year. He had barely played at Memphis. Theoretically he made sense as like this big guy who could pass, who could, you know, it just, it just didn't work out. I don't have a ton of regrets about it like I do with Scoot where I Just thought Scoot was going to be this downhill. Russell Westbrook, unbelievable athlete guy and we just haven't seen it. I have no excuses with Scoot Wiseman. There's some excuses. Lonzo In 2017 I was super high on and he just got hurt. So I don't feel bad about that. Jabari Parker 2014 I really liked now his knees were made of fusilli so I don't know how much blame I can get for that one. But he will also belong to this different era. He made way more Sense in the 1990s and 2000s. What his game was, the scoring small forward who couldn't guard anybody. And then as the league shifted, it's like is he a 4? Is he a 3? So I feel a little bad about that one. But not, not scoot level. Michael Kidd Gilchrist in 2012 I loved. I liked him at Kentucky. I just thought he was going to be an incredible three and D guy once he learned how to shoot threes. Guess what? Never learned how to shoot threes. He had some weird elbow thing. His elbow was always like. I forget was like a childhood injury or something. He just could never shoot. This one is probably my worst one since Scoot. Derek Williams in 2011. I still don't know what happened here. When you think like where the league was going 2011, that's right when Curry was starting to blow up a little bit at Golden State maybe a year later was when the Curry and the threes started. But Derek Williams on paper like the perfect stretch four, like just exactly what you'd want. Somebody good athlete who could rebound and shoot threes and I don't really know what happened. He went to Minnesota. It just. It just. I'd love to do his career again. I'm not going to admit 100% defeat on it, but I'll admit 90% defeat. Ricky Rubio 2009 My two favorite guys in that draft were Curry and Rubio and not in that order because I liked Rubio. I thought Rubio was going to be a generational point guard. I was all in. I'm not positive I was wrong because first of all he goes to that weird Minnesota team. They have a hundred point guards. He doesn't come over right away right as it's starting to really happen for him. On the T Wolves, Kobe crashed into his knee and he blew out his ACL and he just. He was never the same. I would love to do his career over again. I still feel like I was right on him and it just didn't Happen. So still not as bad as Scoot. And then the last one, Jay Williams in 2002. I think I have a column in the archive somewhere where I thought he was a better pick than Yao Ming. I'm not positive I was wrong. Jay Williams was really exciting guard. I remember we talked about this on. He came on my podcast like seven, eight years ago. He was an electric Rustbrook, Rustbrook, Westbrook Rose. Kind of athletic point guard that he was definitely something. Then he had the motorcycle accident. We'll never know. So out of all of these, I think Scoot was just the biggest miss for me because I thought athletically what he was as a downhill guy and as a competitor. I just thought he was going to be awesome. And I missed it. And I'm still holding on a stock. Maybe it'll turn around. 39 points the other night. Not giving up yet. All right, number 25, number 24, Chicago. They're 18 and 23. Super fun team. Great league pass team. Levine has been awesome. Levine has rejuvenated himself as a trade value asset to the point that if you're ranking him against all the other guys who are definitely available, you'd probably want him the most. You definitely want him more than Beal. So he's 23, 5 and 5. He's like a 50, 40, 80 guy this year. He's had good games against really good teams. Like, he had two games, two really good games against Knicks, really good game against Boston, two really good games against Memphis, a really good game against San Antonio. He's putting up big stats against excellent defensive teams, and I think he's a really interesting trade piece. As we head toward the deadline, because I don't know why Chicago wouldn't want to explore trading him, but compared to Bale and some of the other ones, even Jimmy Butler, who you just have no idea where his head's at. I think he's a legit trade asset. I think Vucevic is a legit trade asset. On the other hand, why. Why give those guys away? Like you're, you're. You're going to be a top 10 draft pick anyway? Probably. I don't know why. I would just be like, yeah, sure, take Vuch for a protected first. I'd rather just keep him and hope his value goes up regardless. This is the perfect Jerry Reinsdorf team. They're mediocre, they're fun to watch. They're not the luxury tax. And keep cashing those checks. Jerry. Next category. We just did the pre tankers. I'm calling this category, the Rock and the hard Place, number 23, Philadelphia. They're 15 and 24. That's really awful. 4 and 19 against above 500 teams. Yikes. Paul George, he's played 26 games. He's shooting 42%. 2.7 free throw attempts a game. As you know, I love free throw attempts because it tells you is somebody go to the basket or not. He doesn't go to the basket anymore. Not sure what he's doing. He was 5.3 free throw attempts two years ago. Just in general. Looks old. I don't know if this is a phase because he was hurt before the year. Maybe his conditioning wasn't there. Maybe podcasting. Maybe he's proving that podcasting is more grueling than you guys gave a credit for. He doesn't look the same and he doesn't look the same to the point that I think if Philly called Miami and said, we'll give you Paul George for Jimmy Butler, I don't think Miami does it. I don't think they want any part of three more years after this year of Paul George. So he said that point already. Unless he can show on a basketball court that he's better than that because right now we're not seeing it. I didn't like when he complained about playing the five when Embiid's out and he said it was. This is just not that fun for me. You're trying to win games. You're 15 and 24. Maybe do whatever it could take to make the team better. Rough signing. So you have that. The Nick Nurse thing has gone terribly and I am not ruling him out for the Amazon NBA Studio show next season. I think he's got to be in there. Embiid, this is the big thing. 13 games, 389 minutes this year for his career. He's missed 404 games now and he's played 446. So he's edging toward 50. 50. I played or I didn't play for my entire career. They had a 4 and 5 this week. That was the biggest stretch of their season, playing all playoff teams, all really good teams. He missed the first two. We'll see what happens with the others. He's got knee stuff plus a foot thing. And it just doesn't seem like it's going to happen again in the same way. I remember Goldsberry asked me earlier in the year, is he in a 2008 Shaq stage? Embiid, 2008 Shaq played. He was, I think, third team all NBA. He doesn't play. And when you miss, when you miss 404 games over the course of 11 years, yikes. When he did play offensively, looks great. Can still get, can still get to the free throw line, can still make that little 20 footer at the top of the key is still big and huge. He falls down all the time. Falls down more than ever. I think his fall down per 48 minutes is the highest it's ever been. The thing that was really alarming with him was the Golden State game a couple weeks ago. I'm not sure if you guys saw it, but Golden State was just doing the thing where they just. Everybody's cutting and moving and passing and the ball's flying around. They're doing the 2014 spurs thing and Embiid was wandering around like a drunk guy outside of the bar at 2:15 in the morning trying to keep up with it. And if you watch that one game, you would say to yourself, it is impossible to think that this team could win four straight playoff rounds. Which if they make the playoffs now, they'd have to win at least one playing game, maybe two. They'd have to play Cleveland in round one, right? Then you'd have to play the winner of who, whoever the four or five is. And then the Knicks Celtics would be waiting in the last. I mean, there's no way. So I was thinking like the Knicks, who. They always had this relationship with Embiid with Leon Rose and Wes and those were his guys. And it was always like, well, if he ever gets unhappy in Philly, the Knicks will trade for him. Can you imagine if the Knicks went all in for Embiid last summer and instead of getting Towns and Bridges, they basically took all those assets and just had Embiid. And then what happened with EMBIID this year? 13 games, 389 minutes was happening in New York after they had the super fun team last year. It's a bullet dodge, my friends. Anyway, they are number 23 and I think we can cross them off as a title contender. I'm ready to do that. New Orleans up to 22. They're 10 and 32. We knew they would be a. What the fuck happened to that team in the West? And they're. They're the team. They had a stretch where their body language was the worst in the league. Their home court, when they do the wide shot, all the seats in mid court, like maybe one third of them are full. The energy is just super, super, super weird. They should probably be doing everything possible to suck at this point. And yet when you watch them, which I've watched a couple of games, they've turned into a really fun league pass team. Trey Murphy's playing great. Zion's back, Murray's back. They're, they're, they're a good team. When every, when everybody's playing. They're not great team, but they're a good team. They're. You would think they were like a 6 to 10 playoff seed potentially with everybody. They haven't added anybody, but they're 10 and 32. And I don't know what the move is because it's really hard for them to tank when they have as many good players as they do. I mean, one thing they got to get credit for, they. They just nail their draft pick every year. Like Messi's, like been has a chance to win rookie of the Year this year. Every year it seems like they hit their pick, Trey Murphy, who they just resigned. But Hawkins, I like all these guys and they have a bunch of trade assets. Ingram, 36 million expiring. Zion, 36.7 withouts every year. McCollum, 33 and 30.6. Sorry, C.J. for mentioning you in a trade rumor. Murray, 29.5. They have moves. I just don't know what the move is. And my guess is they'll probably limp along for the next month and try to figure out what they are. And if they keep winning games, maybe start trying to talk themselves into or run it to 10 seed, which would kind of be insane. But what else are you going to do? You have all these good basketball players who are trying to play hard. This is a team to watch. It's a team to watch from a spoiler standpoint, from a trade machine standpoint. And then the Zion piece of it where he just, he goes away for four or five, six weeks, whatever it was, comes back and looks really good and doesn't look fat or out of shape, and you're like, whoa, this is going great. And then the story comes out, they have to suspend him because he's repeatedly late to practices and stuff. And you just got this guy just never ever going to get it. I would still trade for him if I was a team like San Antonio. We'll get to that in a second. Next category, the trade machine heroes. Phoenix, number 21. They are 19 and 20 their last 15 games. They're basically 22nd net, 26. Defense for points per 100% possessions. This team's just not good. You, you can talk yourself into. Oh, they just got. I Don't see it. I watch them play whoever and I'm very invested in them because this is going to be the probably the first FanDuel Super Boost we've lost since 2020. We thought they were going to get 47 plus wins. We thought they were going to shoot a bunch of threes. Marcelo, House and I were all aligned on it. And then you watch them and I just don't see it. They can't rebound, they can't protect the rim. The guys don't seem like they like playing with each other. You watch them play a team, I don't know, they pick a bad team. Like they'll play like Charlotte or Washington or whoever. And you're watching the back and forth. You're like, I'm not sure they're much better than this other team. The league's just really good and really deep. And what's funny, Katie and Booker are both over 36 minutes a game and they've actually had them for most of the year. It's a team that makes more sense on paper in 2017 than in 2025. When you need depth. They just threw away depth. The Beal trade. The Beal trade was Chris Paul Shamit. 2024, 26, 28 and 30. First round swaps with Washington and a bunch of seconds for Beal. And it was a terrible trade when it happened. I hated it. I thought they left themselves with no outs. I was not a giant Beal guy. And now he's at 50, 53.7 and 57 million for this year and the next two with a no trade clause. And they can't trade him. He knows they can't trade him. I'm not sure he gives a crap. They have Nurkic at 18 and 19. They have Grayson Allen at basically 16 this year and then three more years after that. And those are their trade assets. And nobody wants Beal. Nobody. Not. Not one team. I don't know what they do. I do know this. I was thinking about the worst Big Threes of all time. Cause we did use the Big three. I didn't. But we used the big three word with the, with Durant and Booker and Beal. This is up there for. For worst Big three of all time. But I think the answer, as much as I love Steve Nash is Kobe and Dwight and Nash. That one year at the Lakers when people were calling them the Big Three and then Nash was like his body just completely broke down. Kobe hated Dwight. That's probably our worst big three. You could talk me into LeBron and AD and Russ. Some people try to get it going when Russ and Paul George and Carmelo were on the same team that one year. But this is like a possible Mount Rushmore. Oh, my God, I can't believe we called them the Big Three kind of situation. It's also another unhappy Kevin Durant team. So we have the 2019 warriors unhappy 2022 N23 nets unhappy, unhappy 2024 sons unhappy 2025 sons currently unhappy. I'm just flagging it. Maybe it's a coincidence. One more other thing with them, they keep Beal keeps being mentioned in trades as if anyone's trading for him. And it's like, well, Jimmy Butler really wants to go to Phoenix. Cool. You're going to have to trade Kevin Durant or Devin Booker for Jimmy Butler because you're not getting him for Bradley Beal. Nobody wants that contract. Nobody wants Bradley Beal. I think he's the number one trade asset you don't want in the entire league. Sorry, Bradley Beal, but it's true. The Suns are the guy in your fantasy league who texts you and tries to trade you. DeAndre Swift for Brock Bowers. Hey, I see you need a running back. What about Swift for Bowers? And you just like, dude, stop. Nobody wants Beal. There's. Nobody wants Nurkic. It's like, yeah, you're not getting Vucevich for Nurkic and a couple of number twos. Stop. It's not happening. The whole league is annoyed by the Suns. It's a really important point. Everyone in the league's like, hba is just on a bender and, and this team is insane. And stop calling us Miami at number 20. Speaking of Bradley Beal, they're 20 and 19. It's weird. They're. They're, you know, in the top half of the league in offense and defense. They're getting an awesome Tyler Hero Year, who, at the end of some of these games, has really been a pretty special offensive player. Sometimes you watch, you catch a certain heat game with 2 minutes left and he's just like slicing and dicing somebody. I think that's one of the reasons Butler might not have been 100% happy with this Miami situation. Because when you watch him, there's games where Hero just seems like a way better option. At the end of games, Bams offensively is just taking a huge step back. And I don't really know whether it's whether it's an aberration or what's going on there, but it's worth mentioning that I don't think he's as big of an asset as he was last year. Maybe it'll come back. But if you don't get a star back in a Jimmy Butler trade, what's the point of this team? Because your top two is Bam and hero. Congratulations. I don't know where that's getting you with the way the league is now with how deep and awesome it is. So with Jimmy, no deal. Works with Houston and Memphis because they don't want them. Dallas or Milwaukee, they don't have anything. They could trade back Sacramento, there's like a DeRozan herder, Trey Lyles or Keegan Murray. But I, if I'm Sacramento, I don't, I don't want to deal with Jimmy Butler and wouldn't trade for him and then he's unhappy in Sacramento and then he's opting in for 50 plus next year. I'm not doing that. Denver, I don't think Miami takes Michael Porter Jr. Plus Najee, which I think that that would basically have to be the trade. I'm also not sure Jimmy Butler solves whatever issue Denver has because they're already like shaky enough with three point shooting and then they're going to get rid of Michael Porter Jr. I don't like that trade for anybody. Plus Denver's playing better. Phoenix, they're not taking Beal. Golden State's not trading Wiggins and Kaminga and other stuff for Jimmy Butler. And if I'm Miami, I'm not trading Jimmy unless I can get zion in a three way. I mean a basketball three way. Ingram and McCollum together from New Orleans with Butler and Rugier going out, I would consider that. I don't know why New Orleans would do that. Tobias Harris and Tim Hardaway is expiring, plus maybe a protected pick from Detroit. It's a little more interesting because though Kate has become a top 20 player in the league and if you're the Pistons, you could just turn, basically make a 30 cents in the dollar trade and get Jimmy Butler and hope that he's excited for the next year and a half. Paul George mentioned earlier, no way. And then there's maybe a trade where you just get cap space back. But I thought for sure Jimmy Butler was going to get traded. And then the more I kind of sniffed around, talked to different people, tried to figure out the trades, I don't think there's a trade. So I don't know what happens here. And maybe there's a surprise team like oh my God, the Pistons traded for him. There's one team coming up later that we'll mention for this, but I'm really having trouble and I'm the trade machine Picasso. We'll take a break and we'll finish the power poll right after this. Sometimes in basketball, 30 points could be worth more than 30 points and now you can get a 30% profit boost from the Ringer with FanDuel's 30 UN 30 during Fridays. NBA that's right, the Ringer teaming up with America's number one sportsbook to give you a 30% profit boost when you either pick a player to score more than 30 points or bet on our new exclusive 30 on 30 special markets. Like any game to have Both teams score 30 plus points in the first quarter. Looking at the Friday slate, I would target Shay on OKC going against Dallas, the team that knocked him out in the playoffs last year, to get a little revenge 30 plus so you can go there, look at all the matchups, pick whatever you want, ride with that pick. Make your own. Look for 30 on 30 in the FanDuel Sportsbook app or head to FanDuel.com BS for your choice to score a bigger payout this Friday. Don't miss your chance to find out how much more 30 can be worth. With FanDuel's 30 on 30, you must be 21 + in President in select states or 18 + in President in DC. Opt in required bonus issued as non withdrawable profit boost tokens. Restrictions apply including including any token expiration and max wager amount. See terms@sportsbook.fandre.com, gamble problem call Win 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com this episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. In basketball, a blockbuster trade can make or break your playoff run. Before the deadline, GMs across the league scour for the right data and insights, hoping their moves pay off February 6th trade deadline this year. By the way, just like in basketball, growing your small business in 2025 all comes down to how well you can build your team. 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I have them number 19th. They're 21 and 19. They had a huge bummer with Jaden Ivey getting hurt. Which a game that I was actually watching when it happened in a play that the guy diving for the loose ball goes into the side of somebody's leg that you just think would happen more often in the NBA and never does. And then when it happens, it's awful. But that was a bummer because they were really starting to figure out something with him and Kate. I really liked when he would come set the pick for Cade and they would kind of do this small man's pick and roll thing. So cade is basically 24, 7 and 10. And he's 45%, 38% from 3. He's going to be on the all Star team and he's turned into an awesome asset. And we were unclear the first couple years, especially with the way the team was losing. But I am willing to redo now my number one picks since Tim Duncan list where there's eight definitive nos. You would not take this guy again. Ayton, Fultz, Simmons, Bennett, Odin Bargnani, Kwame Brown, Ola, Wakandi. I still can't believe Olo Candy went first. 19. The late 90s were unbelievable for basketball content. I really wish I'd had a bigger audience back then. The sort of list. There's seven guys. Zion, Wiggins, Wall, Bogut, Kmart, Elton Brand. I'm gonna put Reese Sachet in there too. Cause I like Rhys sachet. He's like 19. We have no idea what's gonna happen with him. But that's like a sort of. You can see it. There's a case for it. Some of those guys like Zion and maybe even Wiggins. Maybe the next five years will even boost them into the yes category. And then the yes guy. You would take this again. Wemby, Paolo, Edwards. Three great ones. Three great number one overall picks there. Anthony Davis, Kyrie, Blake Griffin, Derrick Rose, Dwight Howard, Lebron, yao. That was 10 the last time I did this. We have two editions. I think Carl Anthony Towns is officially A yes. He's been a really good number one overall pick, especially the fact that he was part of a really good Minnesota team last year that almost made the finals. And then this year, you know, one of the. One of the best 12 players in the league so far. So he's in there. And then I think Kate is a yes. Now. I think when you think about, did that number one overall pick, did that work? Did that kind of work? Did that not work? He Definitely 100% worked, so kudos to him. I'm still interested to see what they do with Tobias Harris and Hardaway as trade bait because you can get to 41 million with them. They also have this 14 million under the cap situation, so there's a lot of fun stuff they can do. And the fact that they're over.500 even without Ivy in an Eastern Conference, that has been pretty weird. I'd like to see them do something. All right, next team, Sacramento, number 18. They are 20 and 20. This team would have been a three seed six years ago. And now they have a fired coach and. And I don't know what the hell they are. They had. They fired Mike Brown. They lost the first game. They won a couple goofy games that they shouldn't have won and now got the momentum. And now all of a sudden the vibes are good. And it's like, see, that's why we fired Mike Brown. I'm not sure that was the difference. Obviously not in the locker room. But I just think they had some bad luck earlier in the season and they got some better luck later. Now there's now DeRozan starting to look better. Fox missed a couple games. I was watching them because House and Sal and I and Hench, we did. We did a parlay over under wins, total bet like three weeks ago. And one of them was Sacramento under. I think it was like 42 wins. And we were like, sacramento, this is a. This team's falling apart. And then they fired the coach five days later. And now it's coming back with Doug Christie, former star of basketball wise. I don't know what happens with them. I'll tell you this, though. There was a moment with the Kings where it felt like they were full Kangs. And you go, there are 13 coaches in 20 years. They had that light the beam season. Then they overextended Sabonis, they did the Barnes extension, Vizenkov. That signing was terrible. They blew the Devin Carter pick. They did the Rosendale, and it was just like, oh, the Kings are back. But now they're playing well, so I don't know. I'm sure their fans are confused, too. Interesting playing team, by the way, because Fox, you know, they're. They're Fox and Sabonis. They have two of the top 25 guys in the league, so I'm not positive I would want to see them in Nate Nankan. Lakers, I have 17, 21 and 17. They're still in the bottom 10 in the league. On defense, they're in the bottom five in the league. Rebounding, two things that scare me. There was a Dallas game last week when Dallas abused Austin Reaves to the point that I thought. I thought the. I thought Reaves, his corner, was going to throw in the towel. And that's the rub with this Lakers team, is that any smart team can just attack them defensively. And it's like, pick your guy. Do you want to attack Reeves? Oh, connects out there. Let's attack him. Oh, LeBron's decided not to move around on defense today. Let's just start doing back cuts and making him move around. They're just too easy to score on. I like the Finney Smith trade, though. And Max Christie's playing better. And I don't dislike the roster. I think they have real issues that are going to surface in the playoffs. But as a regular season team, especially when LeBron plays well or Davis plays well, in any given game, it feels like they can beat just about anybody except for like seven teams. But for the most part, I this. This team not even close to being a contender. To me, I can't. It would be a miracle if they won one round. And the LeBron plus minus stuff is pretty strange. Like, I did that like a week ago. I looked it up. He had the worst plus minus of anyone who's playing 30 minutes or more in a winning team. It was minus 6.2. It's mostly the defense, but if I were them, if Jeannie Buss asked me what to do, I would tell them not to trade any assets. I don't understand the point of doing that. There's no scenario where they make the Finals. No, there's no trade out there that would put them in the Finals. So Golden State number 16, probably in a similar situation. I think the difference is they're in top five defensive rating, they have a bunch of tradable stuff, and they desperately need a second score. And you could see a world where if they got a second guy who could help out, Steph, maybe they become friskier. They're well coached, they have a lot of continuity Together. The problem is if you get somebody like Jimmy Butler, you're going to have to give up Wiggins in the trade. Now I'm losing stuff defensively. I'm losing other assets. So the, the, the trade that makes sense to me is Vucevich. And it's made. Say, it made sense for, I would say about a month and a half. And it's basically, you know, Looney can be any. Makes 8 million. Moses Moody, put Peyton's expiring in there or another Kyle Anderson, whatever you need to do, throwing a pick and just add Vucevich and kind of have him playing off with Curry. They. I think somebody told me this. Curry's never had a stretch five in his entire career. Every. Every guy in the league has played with somebody of three who could make a three, and he's just never had it. Curry's at an interesting point in his career because, like, his, they, they've cut his minutes down to like 31 minutes a game. His per 36 is still right around where you want it to be. Like his 26A game, 45%, 42% from 3. But I did my Ringer 100, and I couldn't justify putting him in the top 10 anymore. At least right now. It could change in a month. But if he's your best player on a team and the supporting cast is solid, you're. You're just not a contender. So I was. When I did my top hundred, I had Jokic first, Giannis second. I put Shea third, Tatum fourth, Luka fifth for now because he's. He's hurt and there's durability stuff with him that I'm not positive about. I have Wemby 6th, Davis 7th, Mitchell 8th, Brunson 9, Edwards 10, Curry 11. And Curry vs Edwards and Brunson, I think is the big question there. But those guys are just more reliable night to night at this point. Curse 36. It's just the way it is. If I, if it was one game with my life on it, it's a different question. But if we're talking about a regular season, I don't see how he's in the top 10 right now. That could change. Next category, the Young and Funds. Oh, by the way, with Golden State, I don't. This is not the Jimmy Butler team for me. Not worth it. The Young and Funs, I only have one team. This Atlanta have them 15, 21 and 19. They got Trey going a little bit. We talked about Trey like a month ago. He's up to 23 a game 12 assists. His shooting percentages are up a little and he's had some good games when other guys weren't playing. You can kind of see, oh, this is a game I get to shoot 33 times. I still really like this team as, as like a stealth. You'll beat them in round one, but it's probably not going to be that easy. Their three point shooting is the thing that's been really hurtful to them. Daniel's 31%, Reese 28, Jalen Johnson 32, Bogdanovich 34, not as high as he used to be. I'm still in on these guys and they've, they've never had all their guys together for more than like a, like two weeks. So when everybody comes back, I don't think they're a trade team to try to get a better asset, but I think they're going to be like around 44, 45 wins. That's where I have them penciled in. Just because the east is going to really start tanking, that brings to the next category secretly scary round one opponents. You could talk yourself in Atlanta being there, But Indiana number 15, definitely. They're 22 and 19. They're 11th in pace this year. They were second last year, so they're a little slower. I think that's siakam related. They're ninth in offense this year. They were second last year, but the last 15 games are fourth in offense. They've had no knee Smith for 35 games. Halburn's had a weird year and every time it seems like he gets going, something happened. He just hurt his hamstring. In general, I like this team and I like what I've seen from Walker the last couple weeks from them. I, I feel I want to see this team in March. This team is like a pause button. Let's see what you look like on March 10th. And then San Antonio is the other team like that. They're 19 and 20. They're always hanging around these games and they haven't quite figured out how to close them. I think last night was a really good example against Memphis, which was an awesome game. They played the most fun game of the season against Denver a couple Fridays ago. That was the Wemby is officially here. We knew he was already here, but he's officially here now. Game where Jokic praised him afterwards and talked about how he was generationally special. Really cool moment. Wemby's 25, 11, four assists, four blocks a game. Their defense is sixth in the last 15, which is why you have to consider them a scary playoff team. Wemby just. We should have a different defensive player of the year award now because he should just get it every year. We should. We should actually have the number two guy, should get a separate award. Nobody's ever winning this award again as long as. Until Wemby is like 35, assuming he stays healthy. He's. I was talking about him with somebody yesterday. He's a foot longer than everybody realizes when they're playing. And over and over. One of the most fun things about watching him is every, every game, there's four or five moments where somebody is in the paint and they think they're going to get him, or they think they're going to shoot a floater or they think they're going to get a layup past them, and they just forget. He's got this extra foot that his body goes up. And they're always like, oh. And even as they're shooting it, he's going up and they're realizing mid shot, oh, God, he's going to block this. And they can't stop it because their body is already committed to it. But he's. The fact that he's growing like he is, which is not surprising. And then Castle has shown some, some, some stuff like he did last night against Memphis Castle. I think the second half of the year is worth watching as how. What's his ceiling? This is a terrifying round one team. I don't want to see Wemby in a series period. Like, there was a play last night in the fourth quarter where he ended up with the ball on the left side of the foul line where if he turned into the paint, he could have shot a jump hook. And he never goes there. He's always in the. He's always around the three point line. They always run stuff with him 25ft from the basket. And in this play, he had the ball because a play broke down and they gave it to him on top of the foul line. And the other team immediately panicked. The point guard came down and doubled him. Then he turned into the lane, the third guy came in. So now he's being triple teamed. And then somebody back cut and he was able to pass the guy and get a layup. And it made me think, like, when he realizes that the foul line is where he needs to be, that's his spot. The same way Nowitzki realized it, the same way Duncan figured out his spot. I talked about this with Kurt Goldsberry Berry a couple weeks ago. What's Wemby's what are his spots on the floor? That left side of the foul line where he can turn and he can either shoot a little 15 footer or he can put his head down into the paint, jump, hook, or pass to a cutter. But everything is coming with his right hand. He can hold the ball up like it's a fucking grape. That's the key to Wemby, I think, going forward, if he figures out that spot. Plus he has the top of the key in the. In the ability to shoot threes. Those two things combined, I just think he's going to be an absolute bitch in the playoff. And I'll tell you something else. This is the number one. Holy shit, I can't believe they traded for Jimmy Butler team where the spurs just say, fuck it. We have this guy's the sixth best guy in the league. Maybe we should see what's up. Would they do that with their culture? I don't know. This is also a holy shit, they traded for Zion team, which if I was the spurs, that would be the guy I targeted. Bring him into our organization, our culture. Put him with Wemby now. This is the most terrifying circle on anyone's schedule. It's like, oh, my God, we have to play Wemby and Zion today. All right, next category. Puncher's chance. Minnesota. I can't rule them out yet. They're 21 and 19. I have them 12th. They're up to fifth in defense. They were first last year, but now they're fifth. So that's better. Here's the thing. They finally realized something that I've touted on this podcast many, many times over the years and in my column. And it's something I just instinctively believe in. Just play your best five guys. Stop worrying about positions. Oh, we need somebody who's. People always do this with point guards where it's like, well, that guy looks like a point guard. Mike Conley. Godspeed, great career. Really enjoyed him. Incredible teammate. Everybody loves him. It's over. He's. It happens. This is what happens to point guards. He's done. It's a wrap. So they realized a couple weeks ago we should just play DeFincenzo and not have a point guard and defense. Enzo is reinvested and has been playing really well and they're playing better. There's a Conley with Randall where that can get them to about 43 million. They'd have to take somebody back who makes less than that. I don't know if they'd even trade Conley. There's no Trade for him straight up, because he's got another year after this one. But there's still a move with them. And part of that move has to be maybe get Julius Moreno out of here. The thing with the Towns trade, which I think has just worked out horribly for them, and this was the worst case scenario of the trade, which was that it boxed them in. Nobody really wants Randle now. They had to resign Conley. Nobody wants him. But it was a financial trade. And it's yet another reason why Glenn Taylor is one of the five worst NBA owners we've had. The move to trade Towns and then extend Gobert to try to get him on a cheaper deal was just a fucking double whammy. Like you can't bounce back from that. And the lesson, as always, is a rod is a loser. The sleeper number 11, Orlando. They're 28th offensively. There's only two teams in the league worse per 100 possessions than Orlando, and yet they're four games over.500. Their defense and their camaraderie and their feistiness and their competitiveness has just carried them in all these games. They're opposing rebounding. Their first teams are only 40.6 rebounds a game against them. So they're dominating the boards. They're great against the three. Teams are 31% against them with the three. And they get steals. They get all this stuff. The zombie magic. Unfortunately, they can't shoot and they can't score. Paolo came back. Franz is eventually coming back and nobody wants to play this team. They're six seed, seven seed, eight seed. I don't want to see them. The Celtics are the three seed in Orlando's six seed. I'm bummed. That's a really hard team to play. It did make me think though, this is a good example of NBA depth being deeper in a significant way than it was 13 years ago. You're talking about players like 75 to 300 are so much better than they were in the early 2010s. Like they have Da Silva. Oh, let's just throw him in. He can we. He's not even playing now. He's in there and we're going to him in crunch time. Batadzi. I think that's how you say his name. Isaac Cole. Anthony. Anthony Black. These guys are all good. I was looking at the 2012 Celtics, a team that was up 3, 2 in the Eastern Conference finals with a chance to go to the finals. This was their 5 through 10 guys in that series. Michael Pietras, Brandon Bass, Keon Dueling. Marquis Daniels, Greg Steamsma and Ryan Hollins. That was our bench. The league is way better now number 10. The Clippers still can't get a feel for if this team is a contender or not. They're the league's best coached solid team. The bottom seven offense, top five defense. They have a pretty good home court advantage. Now they have Kawhi, at least at the point where I'm interested to see where it is in March and April. They have this Norm Powell jumping from 14 points a game to almost 24 at age 31, which I think we need a new award. I would get rid of clutch player. I never know how to vote that I would replace it with the Tommy from Goodfellas. Look at this fucking guy. That would be my award. And Norm Powell would win because I have no idea how we went from 14 and 24, but we did. Harden is interesting because on the one hand he's one of the reasons that they've overachieved. On the other hand, a lot of his best games seem to come against shit defenses or mediocre teams. And then the worst games, if you really watch carefully, it's like against Houston, okc, San Antonio, Boston, Minnesota. So there's some fool's gold with the hardened pace. 35% from 3, 44% on twos. He's. He seems like he's the same, but he's not. He can still give you a good quarter, but not a whole game. And they really need Kawhi back for me to take them seriously. So that's the last non contender for me until we see with Kawhi. All right, next group, definitely lurking. Milwaukee. I have them 9th, 21 and 17. They still have Giannis. That's it. They're. They're shooting threes way better than I think anyone expected. They're in the top three. They're really good in corner threes and I don't want to see them in the playoffs, if that's okay. Because that's the three, six, possibly. If it's Boston, Milwaukee, I don't want to see Milwaukee. I don't see Orlando, actually. The way Boston's playing, I don't want to see anybody. But they're lurking. Dallas is lurking. I'm not willing to make any sort of big judgment with Dallas. Lucas missed 19 games. Kyrie with some back stuff that's a little scary because he's been in the league for a while and he's a guard. And I always worry about aging guards hitting their early mid-30s. This is a let's say in March team for me also not a lot of moves, but Luca turns 26 next month. Just pointing that out. Usually you have your apex season age 27, age 28. So we're in range and it's not this year, but it's a wait and see team for me. Then Houston number seven. You could talk me into Houston being fifth, you could talk me into them being 12th because I don't think there's an extra gear. I think they're here and they're here every game and when we get to the playoffs, they're still going to be here. They don't, they don't have the ability to do this because offensively it's just too choppy. They're really keeping their fingers crossed. With Jalen Green out, I watch a lot of Houston. I really, really, really like watching Houston. We talked about it, we're going to talk about with Joe Anderson in a second. But the Jalen Green piece is the piece. 43% field goal, 35% threes, 2.6 assists, 4.2 free throw attempts. I'm just reading those stats because this is your crunch time guy and the odds are he's not going to score or create a shot from somebody else in the biggest moments of the game. So that's one at least not yet. He's young, maybe it's in there. And then Van Vlietz, the other one, who's 15 points a game, six assists, his clutch numbers are probably the worst in the league. And those are kind of their two options at the end of games. So it, it just turns into a rock fight. And the rock fight recipe, they're. They're third to last in three point shooting, 28th. They're first in rebounds. And it's just a rot. You watch the last five minutes and it's like watching 90s basketball again. So you know, could they turn Van Vleet and a bunch of stuff into Fox? I don't think Sacramento. If I'm Sacramento, I'm not trading Fox. But that's the only way this changes, I think. Otherwise I'm fine. Joel and I talk about it in the next segment. I'm fine with Houston. Just, hey, this is great. We're a top four seed. Let's see what happens in the playoffs. Let's see if Jalen Green has another gear. Let's see what Sengun can do. Jabari Smith, let's, let's just see what this looks like for a year and then we'll decide in July who We are. I think that's the move. The contenders. I have six contenders. Number one is Memphis. Who's top seven? Offense, defense. Brandon Clark's back. Angry Jaw's back. Dunking on Wemby last night even though it didn't count. Still fun. Their benches just. I've never seen anything like this. Bench Brandon Clark, Huff, Aldama Wells, Canard, Edie Laravia, Pippen. I mean not sometimes a couple of those guys will start, but they just can survive an injury to anybody in the team for a week and you don't even notice. The Laravia contract was weird where they didn't. They did the, the Jalen Smith thing. They didn't renew it and now I guess he's a trade piece but he's playing really well. I want to shout out Wells. I used to do when I, when my fingers worked and I had a column. I used to have my Bill Simmons all stars for random guys in the league. I, I just love, I love Wells. Wells. Watch Memphis and watch if the other team has, you know, a really good swing and Wells is a lot of times the guy guarding the swing and really being a pain in the ass. But I. That guy. There's something there with Wells and that's why when you think about like I've heard Cam Johnson mention with them and they could easily trade Marcus Smart and Laravia for Cam Johnson throwing some picks and improve that Marcus Smart style. I would want to see what I have with these guys for another couple weeks before I think about a trade. And the team seems like they have good chemistry, they really like each other. There's a regular season versus playoffs conundrum with them that the team in the regular season is perfect with the depth but in the playoffs, when you have to, when the same team is seeing you six, seven times in two weeks, is there an extra gear? It's the same issue Houston has Morant plays three, DNP plays five, misses eight, plays one, DNP plays five, DNP plays two and a half gets hurt. DNP plays three, misses five. This is. He's just not on the floor enough. And that's why it's the hardest to take them seriously when we have to think about can they win four straight playoff runs. We do not have evidence that Morant can play for two months in a row. So until we do, I have them as a pseudo contender. I do want to mention Jaren Jackson's been awesome this year and I loved watching him go at Wemby last night. He really, he. He's one of Those guys who, when he's going against Sabonis, Davis, Wemby, like you really could see him being like, I'm taking the challenge tonight. Denver number five. Let's go. Jokic, 24 and 16, fourth in offense. Their three point shooting is still abysmal. Their bottom three in the league, but Murray is starting to show signs as always. Online criticism works now, TV criticism, maybe that works, but Murray does look a little bit better. Jokic has been, you know, they're 25 plus points better when he's out there versus when he's not out there. The WEMBY Jokic battle two Fridays ago was the highlight of the year. He's doing stuff offensively that doesn't seem conceivable. It seems like it's out of like the 1962 season. And right now I don't think he's the MVP because of what SGA is doing and what he means to that OKC team. But what's changed is now they're a top four seed and whatever happens these next two months, maybe he can play himself into that combo. They have a GM and coach that famously doesn't seem great. I've heard that they don't talk. I find that hard to believe, but it's the worst kept secret in the league. There was a thing where they presented Malone with some sort of win Sting and Calvin Booth as the GM and he presented this jersey. And I was like studying the clip because I was like, I thought these guys didn't interact. I love that Russell Westbrook is relevant on this team and they really needed him. They needed him when Murray was kind of, you know, flaming out a little bit there for a while. They needed him in days when Aaron Gordon, when he got hurt for they just needed his energy, his rebounding, how weird he is, the fact that he just puts up stats and he's been really good for them. Like, I think he's been way out kicked his coverage of what they ever could expect with Westbrook, but I wrote down putting him on this Jokic team. I'm not sure if it's like Daniel Day Lewis in an Apatow comedy or Will Ferrell in a Paul Thomas Anderson movie, but it's so weird. I'm kind of into it. It's just constantly weird. There's a lot of no, no, no Russia shots in with like three minutes left where he just decides, I'm going to take this corner three. But he plays really hard and it really seems like Jokic likes him. So I think he's been a bonus. I think he's kind of saved them in some respects because he's not afraid and he puts up stats. Number four, the Knicks. The town's trade is just amazing. Just. Just an incredible trade. I know their defense dropped, but just when you think like the two assets they gave up versus the one they got back and how great he's been, it's an amazing trade. 25 and 14, 55%, 45% from 3. Really has a chance. If we were doing the old school center forward guard for all NBA really has a chance to be second team on BA Might make second team NBA Anyway, I think I'd rather have him than Anthony Davis at this point. As crazy as that sounds, he's younger and I just think he's more impactful day to day. The Tib stuff is the thing to watch. The minutes that he's putting on these dudes. Last night, overtime, he's just. Hart played 49 minutes. Brunson's playing 40 plus minutes in really hard games and also doing 2/3 of the stuff offensively. And I just feel like he's going to burn these dudes out. And as a Celtics fan, this is where I take my basketball analyst part out. Just as a Celtics fan, please, Tibbs, continue to play these guys. 40 plus minutes a game. Thank you. The Celtics, number three, 28 and 12, second offense, six. Defense started out 16 and three. They are seven and seven in their last 14 games. So what's going on? Well, you win the title and it could go one of two ways. Either you have a huge chip on your shoulder and it's like, we got the bullseye. Come get us and you just kick everyone's ass. That would be like the 92 Bulls. Or then the more typical way it goes is you got a little bit of an on, off, switch. You feel like you can still turn it on and it's going to be there when it needs to be there. The Celtics had a road trip the other night where the first two games were Houston and Minnesota and they just played really well. And it was, it was one of those road trips where it's like, all right, we still got it. And then they immediately fell apart after and lost some games. They're losing games at home. They're not shooting nearly as well like last year. There were. They were 39% on threes and 49% just field goal in general. So very close to where Cleveland is this year. This year they're 46 and 36. So it's not dramatic. But it's a little dramatic. It's three points a game. They don't rebound as well as they did last year. They were second and rebounding last year. They're ninth this year. Tatum has a way bigger rebounding burden than he used to. And then in white. White has just really fallen off the last 20 games. And I think he's hurt and I think he's been hurt for a month plus. And I don't. I just think he's playing hurt because he was incredible the first five weeks and he has been. Drew's older. Drew is a little more hit or miss than maybe he was last year. I'm still not worried. But what worries me is this. Last year was a cakewalk to the Finals. It wasn't their fault. It was just the way it played out. If they follow a three seed, potentially that's Milwaukee or Orlando in round one. Milwaukee is Giannis. Orlando, potentially, defensively could be a real issue for them, especially if you watch the stagnant Celtics offense lately. Knicks, round two, not having home court. Cleveland, round three, no home court. It's like night and day compared to last year. So there's stuff, you know, KP's just coming back in a real way. Tatum's been stupendous. Fifth in scoring, 18th rebounding. Plays his ass off every night, plays defense. He. He's just a top five guy in the league. By any calculation. Jalen shooting numbers are down. There's. So it's all little stuff and I'm willing to say it's more in the camp of we won last year. We're kind of hibernating until the playoffs. I don't love it, though, with the younger team and I don't love the white stuff at all. I want to really know what's going on with them. The schedule is rough. I. They really need that two seed. And if I'm the Knicks, if I'm the Knicks, I'm playing Jalen, Brunson and Hart 48 minutes a game trying to get that two seed. I think that's what they should do. Wink, wink. Cleveland, number two, 34 and five, first offense, 10. They're basically the 20, 24 Celtics. They basically recreated what that Celtics team was. They're 50% on field goals, 40% from threes. They can play defense. The Celtics had those two forwards that were a huge mismatch for everyone. Brown and Jalen. The Cavs more have that same thing with the guards, with Mitchell and Garland. What's crazy is they really, really, really played the minute stuff. Well, Mitchell's 31 a game, Mobley's 30 and a half, Garland's 30.3 and Allen's 29. And what's that record? 34 and 5. Those guys are sitting for one third of every game. They're killing teams and it's very similar to Boston last year. And I said this a couple weeks ago. I'll say it again. I take them really seriously. I do not think this is a regular season team. I think they're really good and I think Mitchell is ready for a bigger moment. And Mitchell might. If you're doing a draft. Of all the guys this year, when we get to the playoffs, who might have started here and went up to here like Jaylen Brown last year, Mitchell's the number one candidate and I would have Wemby number two. Just while we're here, things you're not allowed to say on pregame shows about Cleveland or OKC anymore. People got to start talking about sga. We're talking. People got to start realizing how good Donovan Mitchell is. We know. People got to start talking about Jalen Williams. We are. People got to start talking about Evan Mobley. We are. People got to give more props to the job Sam Presti has done. We have. People got to take OKC more seriously. We are. They're the favorites on FanDuel, which takes me to OKC. The favorite, 33 and 6, first in defense by a lot. This is one of the great defenses regular season wise anyone has put together. They force turnovers at an absurd rate. Everybody seems to sit. The only real weakness they have is opponents can rebound on them a little bit. They've shown the ability to come back in games from double digits. They did against Minnesota and the Clippers and the Knicks and the Celtics, which I think is significant. Chet, I don't know when he comes back, but they're doing all this without Chet and when Chet comes back, this becomes a nightmare team. I don't think they make a trade. My guess is they don't. If they made a trade, they'd probably try to improve the Wiggins spot or the Isaiah Joe spot. And I just don't think Presti rolls that way. If you go back and you look at the KD Russ Harden era, Harden was really the only trade he made during a five, six year stray. He did the Jeff Green Perkins. That was pretty early, before they made the finals. And then he did the Harden trade, which was a financial trade. But for the most part he's a continuity guy and I think they roll with what they have. Their playoffs could look like round one. Maybe it's San Antonio, maybe it's the Lakers, maybe it's the Kings of the Warriors. Round two, Denver, Dallas, Round three, Memphis or Houston. I don't see anybody beating these dudes. And the biggest reason is SGA who is out Alpha the following guys head to head just this season. 45 against Harden, 45 against Hal Burton, 40 against Ant, 39 against Luca, 36 against LeBron, 35 against Curry against Boston. And Tatum, he had 33, 11 and 6. Played the Knicks twice. 39 and 33. Best player in the league this season. He's got to be the MVP because he's meant the most to the best team in the league. Now you could say, well, why didn't we do this with Tatum last year? He's just been more impactful day to day than Tatum is. And I can't believe this is the guy I watched as a kid on the Clippers as a rookie. I never in a million years would have thought that this would become one of the best, most creative scoring guards I've ever seen. He's him and Brunson. Watching those guys just over and over again get the shots they want and create the shots they want against these defenses that are designed to stop them is pretty nuts. Is it going to work in a series? It really depends on Jalen Williams. That's going to be it. It's because at some point during a seven game series, you're going to try to take out SJ and you're going to send second guys at him and you're going to make other team and you're going to make the three point shooting beat you. You're going to put the hand the ball in the hands of Jalen Williams. You say, you know what dude, go for it. If you beat us, so be it. And from what we've seen him in the playoffs last year and even in the NBA cup this year, I'm not positive he can do it. But that's the play against them. Once we get to the playoffs, they're the best team in the league. I think they have a legitimate chance at 70 games because of their depth. 70 wins because of their depth. So could they get to 70, 12, 71, 11? It's possible because night to night, game to game with how good their defense is and their scoring and their three point shooting, I think they can get there anyway. That is our half season power poll coming back. We're going to talk to Joel Anderson from the Ringer and then eventually Joel Anderson and Van Lathan about college football. See you in a second. This episode is brought to you by Nissan. When you're younger, you're more spontaneous. 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I know and love Apple Card. So many places I can use it, especially during a busy time here with football, basketball, the holidays all at once. I can use my Apple Card on tickets to a game, a gift from my dad, or even tickets as a gift for my dad. Plus, anytime there's a new Apple product, it's a lot easier. Apply for an Apple Card today. It's easy. Just go to the wallet app on your iPhone again. That easy? Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch terms and more@applecard.com all right, Joel Anderson is here. We have a whole long history. This is. How many times did we almost work together before we actually decided to work together?
- [67:03]
Joel Anderson
So I definitely came down to the old studio in like 2016 and you guys showed me around. I did the whole thing. We went to lunch, didn't we, didn't we go to lunch that time too?
- [67:12]
Bill Simmons
I thought There was a 2014 too. Wasn't there a Grantland era? We, we definitely talked then. We talked in 16, we talked in 20. And it just for whatever reason never worked out. Now all of a sudden you're with the ringer and we couldn't be happier.
- [67:27]
Joel Anderson
Can I say, can I say something about that too? So yeah. So, you know, like I was in between jobs a few months ago and I was about to accept another offer, right? And I reached out to Connor Nevins people at the Ring of Doe Connor? Because Connor was my editor at espn and I was like, hey, man, you know, I got this offer and it's exciting, but I just want to make sure that Bill, like, you know, like, you guys sure that this isn't going to work out? And Connor was like, yeah, man, you should probably just go ahead. It's fine. Like, you know, Bill's busy or whatever. And so then I texted you right after that. I don't know if. I don't know if Connor's right about this. And you were like, what? I thought, you know, then. Then everything started rolling and here we are today.
- [68:10]
Bill Simmons
It's so funny. Yeah. Because we had talked as usual. I probably forgot to follow up two weeks later. And then. So anyway, it finally worked out. But we always felt like, date back to the Grantland days, you know, sports, culture, real life stuff. Like, we always like the people who dabbled into all these different circles. You're like the epitome of that. You care about all these different crazy. All the stuff you've done in the past. What was the best narrative podcast? What was the one you were proudest of of all the stuff you did?
- [68:40]
Joel Anderson
Oh, definitely Slow Burn six to LA riots. Just cause, like, I was fascinated by LA as a city, and it emerged from my reporting on season three on Biggie and Tupac, and I was just like, oh, if I ever got a chance to tell that story. Which is part of the reason 2020 got held up, right? Yeah, that got put in my face and I said, well, I have to do this. Like, this is like a passion project and, you know, like, humanizing Rodney King, just talking about the divisions in the city, like, how it was more complicated than people thought. I couldn't wait to do that. So that was probably the thing that I'm most proud of. You know, I did a season on Clarence Thomas a couple years later, which was more critically acclaimed. But my favorite is season six of Slow Burn, the LA Rise.
- [69:29]
Bill Simmons
What was the most surprising thing you learned about Tupac and Biggie when you worked on that one?
- [69:36]
Joel Anderson
I think the degree of intimacy between them. It makes sense in retrospect how things got out of control. Right? Because that kind of hatred, that kind of anger only comes about when you know somebody and they're like your friend. Right? And they were really friends. Like, Tupac had a lot to do with Biggie becoming a celebrity and like, you know, getting accepted out on the West Coast. And, you know, he. Tupac wanted to sign Biggie to his record label.
- [70:05]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [70:06]
Joel Anderson
Like, and Biggie was Like, but then Tupac was like, yeah, I don't know, this Diddy guy or Puffy. He. He knows what he's doing. You probably should stick with him. But we could collaborate. Yeah.
- [70:15]
Bill Simmons
I mean, right? Yikes.
- [70:17]
Joel Anderson
Right? Right. I mean, in some ways it worked, and in some ways, you know, it. It probably is best. We didn't get to see how that was gonna turn out in the end, but. Yeah, man. So that. That part of it was the thing. I knew that they had been cool, but I didn't know how cool. And that was sort of a revelation, and it explained a lot about what happened after. Once I learned that, I think how.
- [70:35]
Bill Simmons
Many years before somebody does the Drake Kendrick version of that podcast? I mean, do we need time to pass? Like, what's the right amount of time to actually, like, let everything settle and then dive into it?
- [70:47]
Joel Anderson
Right? Because in so much with. Drake is unsettled. Like, we don't know where he's actually gonna. He hasn't released any. He hasn't really released any music. He hasn't really presented himself in front of the public again. Actually, I'm sort of fascinated by, like, what Kendrick is gonna do at the super bowl is, like, the LA guy, right? Like, he probably had one show in mind. And now after all this, you know, the events of the past week, I wonder if he's gonna have to broaden it, a sort of shift focus. But, yeah, because of all that, because we haven't had their careers haven't continued. Like, that's. Doesn't have to be at least 10 years. Don't you think we got to give it 10 when Drake's almost 50?
- [71:24]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. You. I. I don't know what the right level of distance is. And especially in the documentary era, it really feels like that shortened, you know, like, the Last Dance to me. What was that, 22 years? Yeah, from the last season. That was kind of the perfect amount of nostalgia time.
- [71:39]
Joel Anderson
It really was. It really was.
- [71:41]
Bill Simmons
Because you want. You want people. You want them to have enough distance that they can really say shit after the fact, right. In the interviews. And the Last Dance is a good example. I've certainly had all that. But also, there's a whole new generation moving up that wants to learn more about it. So, yeah, I just feel like that window is shortened now. Now it's like 10, 12 years and not 20.
- [72:01]
Joel Anderson
Absolutely.
- [72:02]
Van Lathan
Well, yeah.
- [72:02]
Joel Anderson
The thing is. And if you wait for too long, somebody else is gonna do it and they may screw it up, and then it's like, well, you really don't want to go over that ground again. Right. Like, it's already out there, but then it's like, maybe not the ideal project at the end of the day. So. Yeah. Wait, let me ask you about the Last Dance thing, then. Cause, like, don't you think that, like, they kind of. I felt like, because of all the fallout as a result of that, like, I don't know what the hell is going on with Scottie Pippen. Like, anytime I see Scottie Pippen in a video or a reel now, like, I feel sorry for him. And I don't know how much of this emanates from what came out of the Last Dance or whatever or, you know, he's gotten divorced. But I feel like they almost have to revisit and re interview some of these people because I feel like there was a lot of fallout from the Last Dance, and it's like, I feel like that story, like, kind of got sparked back up, and I need some sort of closure on a lot of these things.
- [72:54]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I think Isaiah probably has more of a case for feeling like he was completely betrayed by it. You know, he just comes off like the villain. Pippen's more complicated because they tell the whole story about, you know, 94, when MJ's gone and he doesn't want to come back in the game. That was a big part of his legacy. Like when. When I wrote about him in my book a million years ago, a lot of what I wrote in the Pippen part was about, it's unfair that that moment framed his career when he was, like, the most selfless teammate, awesome guy to play with, one of the best 30 players ever. But I think if you really watch the Last Dance again, the last episode, it circles back and talks about how much pain he was in the 98 finals. But part of me wonders, did Pippen even finish it? Because by the end of it, it's like, heroic watching him go through this stuff. But, I mean, big picture, what changed is I think people are so. Sports people are so much more hesitant now to be in docs unless it's about them, unless they're the stars. You don't want to be the bad guy in a sports stock. I think the Isaiah thing, yeah, we dealt with it with the Celtics when we did this nine part Celtics stock that's coming out in 20, 25, and 15 years ago, we would have gotten everybody. This time around, it's so much harder to get people.
- [74:11]
Joel Anderson
Really?
- [74:12]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [74:12]
Joel Anderson
Oh, man. You can't tell me who's been a source of Frustration here.
- [74:18]
Bill Simmons
Then came sadly, no. But it's just, I think the way it is going forward because in the late 2000s especially, nobody really knew what documentaries were. They weren't like, they weren't made like they are now, where it's like they're leading Netflix and they're leading HBO and whoever. So I think the stakes feel higher and people either feel like if it's not about them or if they're not getting paid, they still want to be in it.
- [74:45]
Joel Anderson
Let me tell you, that was the big problem with the Biggie. And two, I'll just admit this on your show here, I did not like season three for Slow Burn, like the Biggie and Tupac because so much of it was people not wanting to talk. Because first of all, people have talked about Biggie and Tupac forever. Some people think they deserve their own documentary. And then. Yeah. Then other people are like, why would I talk about this if I'm not getting paid? And I feel like people have gotten sort of attuned to the idea that like, all right, well, I've got this information if you want it. I need something out of this for myself. Right. And actually though, now that you mentioned it, I would watch the Scottie Pippen documentary.
- [75:21]
Bill Simmons
You know, well, he. So his whole background, which they went into a little in the Last Dance, but you know, it's. He was about as broke as it gets growing up as a kid. Like his, I think his dad was basically couldn't work, was handicapped and. Right. So that kind of led to all the financial decisions he made. Were just trying to grab money, grab these extra long contracts where you're not getting paid as never being able to bet on yourself because you needed money so bad. And it was like this eight year spin cycle for him. Just bad contract after bad contract. And unfortunately with sports, you make a couple bad decisions you can't get out of it. Now we have the NBA where you have Jimmy Butler or Bradley Beal stuck in situations they don't like, but they're making 50 million a year. So it's like, I don't really feel that bad for you.
- [76:08]
Joel Anderson
Yeah, I don't feel. Yeah, I don't. You know, and also, I mean, you know, Jimmy, you could show up, you could play. You know what I mean? The thing I call him, Jimmy Succeed. I'm like, well, you know, I can understand, I could understand the heat problem here. They're like, well, you want to just kind of coast through the regular season? Like, why don't you take the responsibility of leading Us to home court advantage in the playoffs once. Like, that would be cool. Wouldn't that be nice also? That would, you know, do the Erisons or whatever a solid. I'm sure that would earned them a lot of money too, for having playoff games in the first round.
- [76:39]
Bill Simmons
So it's such a mid-2020s thing where it's like, here on the one hand, I see the case for Jimmy, like brought the team to the finals in 20 and 23, was expecting them to make some sort of upgrade. It's not Miami's fault. I don't think necessarily that Portland didn't want what they were offering for Dame Lillard, but they didn't get anybody else. So he's doing the I'm not getting enough help thing. I kind of see it. I also see the Miami side of like, we're paying you 50 million a year. You're the best guy on the team. We're paying you to be there, you know, for nine months a year. We don't want to have to wonder when you're playing or not and why are you unhappy. So it just feels like a bad marriage. Like, it's the classic bad sports marriage.
- [77:22]
Joel Anderson
Don't you think he would have been pissed if he had got. If they had gotten Dame, too? Like, now that we've seen Dame and I'll go back to Dame, it was the Tokyo games, and I remember thinking, man, he looks not good out there. I just. I didn't trust. I liked it when they had Jrue Holiday out there instead of him. And I was like, oh, man, I didn't know if he had just turned the corner in his career or what, but I was like, I don't. And so when he went to Milwaukee, I remember thinking, I don't know if that's. I don't know if that's going to be the answer, but okay, we'll see. And so if he went to Miami without Giannis, I mean, I don't. I think they would have a lot more reasons to be pissed down there.
- [78:02]
Bill Simmons
I remember making those points when he was being. When he was being shopped to the different teams, and then everybody was like, you're just Celtics fan. You don't want Miami to get Dame. It's like, look, there's. There's some evidence that he's an awful defensive player. He's also a little guy hitting his early mid-30s, which we have a lot of evidence with that that. That gets a little dangerous. I actually think he's been a little better in Milwaukee this year than I was expecting. But the Jimmy thing is in such a strange spot now because he also has this player option next year. So if you trade for him, you're also paying him next year. So it's a two year commitment. It's his only leverage over Miami because if they don't trade him, then he could just opt in and now they're paying him. So now he's screwed up one year instead of two for them. But that if you're Miami, you don't want to take a bad contract back.
- [78:50]
Joel Anderson
Right.
- [78:51]
Bill Simmons
So Philly's like, all right, fine, take Paul George. You can have him this year. In the next three, Miami's going to be like, no way. We're not taking Paul George.
- [78:59]
Joel Anderson
The thing is, like, they just have to kind of get over the idea. Like, they're not going to win a championship now. Right. I mean, that's the thing. I mean, they have to sort of take their medicine, I guess. Like, don't they have to be bad? But that is not a Pat Riley thing. Like, he's not going to allow them to be bad.
- [79:14]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Because they have some good assets and they're a little bit better than being in the middle. But they're not. They're not a top six playoff team.
- [79:23]
Joel Anderson
Right.
- [79:23]
Bill Simmons
Hero's playing the best he's ever played, and if Jimmy comes back the way that he could actually play, they're pretty interesting. They're not going to make the finals again. But I don't. It's an unsolvable one, because what you don't want to do is compound a mistake by taking somebody else's mistake. That's why Bradley Beal is never happening in a million years. But if Phoenix plays worse and worse, maybe now Durant becomes a possibility, you know, and at least you're taking advantage of somebody else's misfortune to get out of yours.
- [79:56]
Joel Anderson
Let me tell you something. I mean, as a Rockets fan, you know, I grew up in Houston.
- [79:59]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [80:00]
Joel Anderson
Please. Please don't. Please don't trade for kd. Like, I just don't. I like our young core. Like. Like, we have a lot of assets. Please, I just want to rock with Amen. Jaylin Sanguine. Like, I just want to see that with. And let's just go with that. Let's not do the KD thing, because as great as he is, I just kind of feel like the days of him being able to elevate a team in quite that way are kind of over. So let's just. I like what we're doing. It's the only thing that makes me feel good about missing out on Wemby in the draft. So, like, let's just. Please, if Houston, if you can hear me, let's keep this roster. Let's just rock with it for a little bit longer and see where we can go with it. Please.
- [80:37]
Bill Simmons
How close were you to Wimby? I forget how many picks.
- [80:40]
Joel Anderson
I mean, two. But I think that, like, I think they had. What did they have the second best odds to get Wimby or something like that. And they ended up picking. They ended up picking third, which is, you know, fine. I'm not upset with the pick, but obviously it's not. It's not wimpy.
- [80:57]
Bill Simmons
Like, so. So to recap, you're not totally fired up. You didn't get a generational super duper star.
- [81:04]
Joel Anderson
Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think that, like, what the Rockets are doing is, like, the only thing that makes me feel good. I'm like, oh, this is the kind of team. They're really good. They're young. They can grow together. Also, I feel like they're strong in a way that sort of could cause problems for Wemby, like this physical, deep team. Right. And I could see that causing Wemby problems. So I'm like, okay, like, if we can keep this together, then I'm fine with it. But if not, then, like, I'm just going to.
- [81:29]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [81:29]
Joel Anderson
Belabor missing out. We got Yao. We got Ralph Sampson. We got Dream. I just kind of expected the Wimpy thing supposed to be us. That's supposed to be the Houston thing, and we missed out on it.
- [81:39]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I forgot to. I forgot about your Rockets connection. I think they're the most fascinating team to be a fake GM for when you just look at their assets. What? Cause they're. They're 26 and 12, you know, or at least when we're taping this on a Wednesday, every time I feel like they're going to maybe tail off a little bit, like, Jabari Smith got hurt. And you think, all right, here we go. Because this team is not a 26 and 12 team. They no last five minutes of a game, they can barely get a decent shot off, and it's going to dip. And then they. They just keep winning and winning, and they're really mentally tough. They play good D, they've good coach, and I don't know what I would do. I don't know what the tweak is.
- [82:17]
Joel Anderson
Well, let me ask you, because you're the. I mean, you're The NBA expert here, like, do you think, though, this is one of those examples of a team that is already sort of capped out on its like they're. They play really at their young eme can get them to play really hard in the regular season, but when it comes to the postseason, there may not be another gear for them, at least right now.
- [82:34]
Bill Simmons
No, there's not. So the question you have to ask when you're in a situation like them is like, OKC two years ago, they were like basically a.500 team. They played really well together. They had a certain ceiling to what they were doing, and he was very hesitant of trading anything for it. Then last year, same thing, right. They. They ended up. They really could have beaten Dallas, they could have made the finals, but they were still really hesitant about making a move. And then this year was when they made the move. And I think they. Bob Houston's conciliary. Unless I could get Darren Fox for Van Vliet and some picks. Like, if that was really sitting there. You have to do that. Like, if you can. If you can basically just change your point guard position. Because Van Vliet, I. I admire the guy. Plays hard, he's an overachiever, but he's just. When he has the ball with three minutes left in a tie game, I don't have any confidence he's scoring.
- [83:27]
Joel Anderson
Right. Like, nobody is scared of him. You don't mind him having the ball? No. Yeah. Yeah.
- [83:32]
Bill Simmons
So they could get like. Like a Fox type level guy, like a booker somehow became available. That's the only thing I would think about. I want another year with Jalen Green because I still don't know what he is.
- [83:45]
Joel Anderson
Yep.
- [83:46]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Same thing with Jabari, who I think I like a little more than most. And then I think their number one asset is Thompson. Like, if I'm just like, if I'm ranking their trade assets, I think he might be number one for me.
- [83:57]
Joel Anderson
I was so mad when they picked him, by the way, Bill. I was like, man, what the fuck? This overtime elite shit, man, I don't want this dog. Don't fall. It did not feel good, but, yeah. I love that dude so much, man. He's such a. He's such a dog. And he's like, pro. I mean, how many. I mean, it's very rare that he's on the floor and he's not the best athlete on the floor, which is crazy to say in the NBA, but that. That is legit.
- [84:20]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [84:20]
Joel Anderson
At least, I think. Yeah.
- [84:21]
Bill Simmons
I know a couple people that have seen Seen the Rockets in person this year separately in different cities. And all of them texted me after and were like, oh my God, like this guy athletically. And it was same, same feeling I got too, where it's like just certain guys move differently.
- [84:39]
Joel Anderson
Yeah, man.
- [84:39]
Bill Simmons
You know where they. And this is a league of these awesome athletes. These are some of the best athletes we've produced as a country. And yet some guys still stand out. And he was one of the guys that you're watching going, man, it just feels like he's a split second faster, more athletic, he can bend in any way, more explosive. Like, he's just. I don't know what his ceiling is, but from what I've seen so far, there's no reason to me that like there's like a pippin would be the ceiling for me. And I don't think that's a crazy thing to say.
- [85:11]
Joel Anderson
No, not at all. I mean, he's. I mean, how old is he again? He's like 20.
- [85:14]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, it's like 21. So. 20 or 21, something like that.
- [85:17]
Joel Anderson
Yeah, yeah, man. I mean, just there's so much growth left for his game and I don't know, like, I don't know if you want to clear it out so that he can become like the alpha dog on your team.
- [85:28]
Bill Simmons
Well, we don't know. Offensively, we don't know. Is the shot ever going to be there? Scotty always, you know, he went. He was basically going to Michael Jordan basketball camp every day. So he, the IQ stuff from MJ kind of eventually morphed, but he was always such a good playmaker and like passer and you know, he had a little weird post up game and I don't know if that stuff's in there, but the defensive athleticism stuff, like if you're doing grades, he's A plus, A plus.
- [85:55]
Joel Anderson
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I want to hold on to that guy forever. And I just, you know, I love, I love like again, you know, maybe I could probably live without Dillon Brooks, but I understand like his role on a team like that and.
- [86:08]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [86:09]
Joel Anderson
It helps to create a culture which was totally different than it existed a couple of years before. But like.
- [86:14]
Bill Simmons
Well, one fun thing, that. One fun thing that's happening with Houston, Memphis, Oklahoma City, and then I'm going to say half of Minnesota. But you have some real alpha e defensive teams, athletes, they're all like kind of around the same age range for the most part. And when you watch league pass, you'd be like, oh, Houston's playing Memphis this Game's going to be fucking awesome, you know. Oh, my God. Houston's OKC tonight. Oh, my God, I can't wait. So there's. There's this little subset now of the league that's like basically the sons of LeBron. All of them were probably. They don't even remember the NBA when LeBron wasn't in it. And. And they're. It's something. You know what I mean?
- [86:55]
Joel Anderson
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Well, I was looking. I mean, like, dude, the southwest standings in the NBA, like, San Antonio was fourth, man. They're fourth. 19 and 19. And the fifth place team is the Pelicans. And I felt like if Zion is right, they can beat any of those teams any night too. Right. They're 9 and 32. But, like, if Zion is right, which is.
- [87:13]
Bill Simmons
I watched it last night. They beat somebody and Zion was. I don't know if they're auditioning him. I'm on the record. I. It's the most fun. The most fun trade that we can come up with in basketball right now is Zion to the Spurs.
- [87:28]
Joel Anderson
Oh, man. Come on.
- [87:30]
Bill Simmons
No, I'm telling you, no.
- [87:32]
Joel Anderson
What?
- [87:32]
Bill Simmons
Put Zion. Zion with Wemby. Zion, trade their stuff, a couple picks.
- [87:38]
Joel Anderson
I don't want that.
- [87:39]
Bill Simmons
Put him in a different organization. Come on, get him the ball. You're out. Why don't you like that?
- [87:43]
Joel Anderson
I could. I don't. Because I don't. I don't like the Spurs. I don't want to hear their mouth.
- [87:49]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [87:50]
Joel Anderson
I don't want them to want to be.
- [87:52]
Bill Simmons
That's.
- [87:52]
Joel Anderson
That's terrifying. Yeah. I don't want that to happen. I also feel like. Like Zion looking up at Wimby and being like, man, this. Look how this guy, how serious he takes his career. Like, I mean, they were talking about his dedication to the game when he was 17 years old over and, you.
- [88:06]
Bill Simmons
Know, learning two languages, learning how to, like, become like a face of a league, basically, you know? Yeah, he's. Yeah, he's planned it all out. I. I wouldn't compare. This isn't an exact comparison because Randy Moss was better than Zion and Randy Moss did more stuff than Zion and he was healthier than Zion. Zion. But there was a moment when. When Randy Moss was on the Raiders that year and they were a dumpster fire and, you know, everything was wrong. He wasn't playing that hard. And his asset as a trade asset slipped to the point the Patriots stole him for, like a fourth rounder.
- [88:39]
Joel Anderson
It was a fourth round pick.
- [88:40]
Bill Simmons
It was crazy.
- [88:41]
Joel Anderson
Yeah, right, right.
- [88:42]
Bill Simmons
But they got him and then he is immediately rejuvenated. I do wonder, like, if that happens, whoever gets Zion, if they could just get him in the right thing, would that be, like, the best trade you could make?
- [88:53]
Joel Anderson
I think that is like, 90. Like, I'm like, 90% certain that's going to happen, because, I mean, it just. It. He did not want to go to New Orleans in the first place. It just felt like it was never going to work out. And New Orleans is a franchise. I feel like if you're CJ McCollum, you're a professional. Like, I'm just going to show up. It doesn't matter where I got a ball, like, I'm going to do it or whatever. But, like, the expectations for Zion was so much more than that. And clearly he thrived in a place where he was the star of the show, and there was a lot of attention on him. And it just felt like New Orleans is not where it needs to be. And also the training staff, I don't know. Anyway, so what do you mean?
- [89:27]
Bill Simmons
No, no. That's the worst organization in the league. That's a huge part of this.
- [89:32]
Joel Anderson
Yeah, that's also. I feel like it's pretty much guaranteed that if he goes someplace that he feels motivated to play and he's got a bunch of guys or dogs around him, I feel like it's a certainty that he's going to take off no matter where he goes.
- [89:43]
Bill Simmons
And he's at least showing flashes, too. You know, like, even in the playing game before he got hurt, like, he's. He was taking it to LeBron in a way that was unusual.
- [89:50]
Joel Anderson
He likes being that guy, man. And so it's clearly in there. I think that it's. Unless. Unless he gets hurt, it's going to come out, and it's going to come out somewhere else. It's just. It's just some places, it's just not going to happen, dude. And, like, I feel like we've seen enough of New Orleans now. It's like, it's just not going to happen down here, so it's time to go somewhere else.
- [90:07]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, well, I know New Orleans is bad for me when I'm there for four days, so I can't imagine when you're him with some of the vices.
- [90:13]
Joel Anderson
That he has, don't you. Well, I don't win. I felt like. I feel like New Orleans is sad, though, too. Like, I feel like I could be down there for three or four days, and then I got to kind of keep it moving.
- [90:23]
Bill Simmons
It's like Vegas.
- [90:24]
Joel Anderson
Yeah.
- [90:25]
Bill Simmons
Vegas is fun for three days. This is like, it's. This is too much. The thing with him, this is like, these are the NBA players I grew up with, where these guys, they have so much talent, they're so awesome, but they never find the right spot, right situation, whatever, and then it just never happens. Oh, Van Lathan's here. He's going to join us. We'll take a quick break, come back and talk some college football with Van. You can save every day by shopping at Whole Foods Market.
- [90:56]
Van Lathan
Seriously, don't just go for their big sales. Walk the store and see the savings for yourself.
- [91:02]
Bill Simmons
In the meat department, look for yellow.
- [91:04]
Van Lathan
Low price signs on Whole Foods market. No antibiotics ever. Chicken breast and ground beef.
- [91:09]
Bill Simmons
Quality, flavorful meats priced just right. Perfect for big dinners with plenty left over for tomorrow's lunches. There are so many ways to save at Whole Foods Market.
- [91:19]
Van Lathan
Now you know.
- [91:20]
Bill Simmons
This episode is brought to you by Peloton. Life's always changing. One season you're trying to break personal records and the next you're just looking for a solid routine. Peloton is here for all of it. With workouts that flex to fit your schedule. Whatever. It looks like you've got options from four week strength programs to running, cycling and everything in between. Peloton's got the tools to adapt to whatever goal you're chasing in this season of your life. And here's the real kicker. With peloton's all access membership, you can work out wherever you need to at home, on the bike, tread or row or even on the go with the app. Take your favorite classes with you to the gym, on the road, wherever. So whatever you're aiming for, that 5am club or squeezing in a late night session, Peloton is ready whenever you are. Find your push, find your power with peloton@onepelaton.com. all right, Van Lathan is here. He's joining us. We're going to talk college football.
- [92:13]
Van Lathan
Yes.
- [92:14]
Bill Simmons
It's the first time you guys have been on a podcast together.
- [92:16]
Joel Anderson
Yeah.
- [92:17]
Van Lathan
Ever. A lot of respect for this guy.
- [92:19]
Joel Anderson
Yeah, likewise, man. Likewise.
- [92:21]
Bill Simmons
College football. I'm going to let you guys carry this. I'm just going to be the point guard, set you up. I'm going to be like Reed Shepard in the G League, just, just running fast breaks and raining threes before we have Joel's five favorite things for college football before we do that. Notre Dame, Ohio State. Every person I know who gambles on college football is like, just throw Ohio state in a parlay It's a wrap. They're too big. They're bigger. They're better. Like this is this is done? They were the eighth seed this year.
- [92:48]
Van Lathan
Yeah.
- [92:49]
Bill Simmons
Is this done? Does Notre Dame is there? Nobody believes in this case.
- [92:53]
Van Lathan
I think Notre Dame probably has a lot of bulletin board material. People are on Ohio State like crazy. They have a ridiculously talented roster and they're peaking at the right time. Right. However, I. Despite all of the animus between LSU fans and Notre Dame fans online, I am not ready to say that Freeman and his staff up there in South Bend are not going to find a way to make this game competitive and not have a chance to win this game in fourth quarter. I think that they will.
- [93:22]
Bill Simmons
What do you think, Joel?
- [93:23]
Joel Anderson
I definitely think it's going to be closer than people think. But at the end of the day, your limitations are your limitations. Notre Dame can't pass, right? Like, they can't pass the ball. And I feel like that's going to be a real problem in a game where you. I mean, the thing about Ohio State, which was we'll get into it in the list later, but somebody's supposed to slip free, right? Like Trayvon, you know, Quinshon, Jeremiah, Emeka, Carnell. Somebody is going to bust loose and like Notre Dame is going to have to do something other than put together a 13 play, 72 yard drive to keep up. And I just think eventually, after a while that takes a toll and they'll kind of fall behind. But I do, I agree with Van that it's going to be much closer and they're going to be a tougher out for Ohio State than people think.
- [94:11]
Van Lathan
So I think what happened with me with Notre Dame was the last game. I think there were a lot of questions answered. Now we could talk about Penn State and some of the limitations that Penn State has, particularly the explosiveness that they lack in their downfield passing game. But a lot of things that people. A lot of questions. Should I say that people are asking about Notre Dame in the game, which was if they ever got behind, Right. Could they play from behind? Did the offense have enough wrinkles that they have dynamic enough talent on that side of the ball to get them back into a game where they couldn't play complimentary football defense like a Pittsburgh Steelers situation. Exactly.
- [94:48]
Bill Simmons
We're down 14. The game is now over.
- [94:50]
Joel Anderson
It's over.
- [94:50]
Bill Simmons
It's. It.
- [94:51]
Joel Anderson
Yeah.
- [94:51]
Van Lathan
But they got down 10. Yeah, they got down 10 and Riley Leonard was even knocked out of the game, which honestly I think kind of worked in Notre Dame's favor a little bit because they weren't really preparing for the backup quarterback to come in there and complete a couple passes. And they played from behind and they made enough plays in the passing game in that game against a quality not quite as good as Ohio State defense. Maybe not, but it's not too, it's pretty comparable a quality Penn State defense. They made enough plays in the passing game to go win the game. Um, they are facing an uphill battle, but for some reason I think the game will be competitive.
- [95:26]
Joel Anderson
I, I, I don't, I don't, if I don't, I don't think I can't envision a scenario in which Notre Dame can get to 24. And that's why I don't think they can win. And I feel like Ohio State can kind of F up and we can't curse here, right? I can say fuck. Yeah, I can say fuck. Ok, I'm just making sure. Well, I know y'all curse, but I just, I'm not, I'm new here. Right. All right, well, I think, I think, I think Ohio State can fuck around and get 24. Like, I mean, you know, they can just luck up into a couple, like hit Jeremiah deep, you know, a drive or whatever. And I don't Notre Dame, again, better than people think they're going to be, but I don't think they can get to 24.
- [96:01]
Bill Simmons
All right, two follow up questions off this one. Ohio State was the eight, the ranked eighth heading into the playoffs. So a year ago they're not in the playoffs.
- [96:11]
Van Lathan
Yeah.
- [96:11]
Bill Simmons
So now they're going to, they're heavily favored to win the title. So what does that mean? Big picture? Were we just doing this wrong the last 20 years? Do we have to go back and go through all the times when maybe the wrong team won?
- [96:23]
Joel Anderson
No, no, no.
- [96:23]
Bill Simmons
What does it mean?
- [96:24]
Joel Anderson
I don't, I don't think that Ohio State necessarily deserves to be the national champion. Like by, like by the standards of the champions that have come before them, they are a failure. They didn't beat their biggest rival, they didn't win their conference championship. So like that they win, like it redeems like the fuck ups they had earlier in the season. But I don't think it means that they deserve to have been in the playoffs. Like, it's just a circumstance of history that they're in the playoffs. But I don't, you know, like, they're the best team, but they didn't live up to that during the year. And if they didn't make the playoffs. I don't think anybody would have lost any sleep.
- [96:58]
Bill Simmons
Well counter. They lost two games by four points.
- [97:01]
Joel Anderson
Yeah, but I mean, have. Well, we'll talk about it. But like, I mean. Yeah, you watched. Had you watched Michigan play this year?
- [97:07]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I watched that game and it was. The announcers were shocked as it was happening.
- [97:12]
Joel Anderson
I mean. Yeah.
- [97:12]
Bill Simmons
What's your take?
- [97:13]
Van Lathan
So I think the dynamic, it depends on which version of college football that you believe in. So if you believe the traditional college football sort of way of doing things that I was brought up on, and I'm sure Joel's brought up on, too, which was the most deserving team won the national championship after a full body of work was examined, then Ohio State's not there. But what I think they were trying to move to by expanding the playoff was to see if they could get to a situation where the best team wins the. The. The. The national championship. And that's on the field. And that means that if you slip up a couple of Saturdays. Right. It doesn't matter, because if you have the best roster and you're playing the best at the right time, then you get a chance to prove it on the field.
- [98:01]
Bill Simmons
Right. So, like, that Michigan loss in the old system is catastrophic for them. Oh, well, let's go to, like, one of the worst losses in the history of Ohio State.
- [98:09]
Van Lathan
Well, let's go.
- [98:09]
Bill Simmons
No, it's not.
- [98:09]
Van Lathan
It's the worst loss that I can remember in that rivalry. But let's not even talk about Ohio State. Let's talk about Notre Dame that lost at home to Northern Illinois. Right. So that is a disqualifying loss in most iterations of the old way of doing college football. It is not in this particular day.
- [98:29]
Bill Simmons
So is that better or worse?
- [98:31]
Joel Anderson
I mean, I guess it kind of depends on what you think. I wrote about this for the ringer dot com.
- [98:35]
Bill Simmons
I know you did.
- [98:36]
Van Lathan
I.
- [98:36]
Joel Anderson
And so what I would say is that if college football fans can sort of disabuse themselves, it's like, as Van said, the most deserving notion. And it's like, well, NFL fans when. When Brady and the Bucs won the Super Bowl, I mean, I don't know if anybody thought they were clearly the most deserving team or anything like that, but they won. They were the champion. And so like, NFL fans accept that.
- [98:57]
Bill Simmons
And it's going to be like Washington with Jaden Daniels when he wins the Super bowl in three years.
- [99:01]
Van Lathan
Or it'll be like when a 9 and 17 beat an undefeated New England.
- [99:07]
Joel Anderson
I didn't want to I was trying.
- [99:08]
Bill Simmons
To be nice also like that. I blocked that out. I don't remember that happening. Is that the Patriots? All right, sorry, Joel, go ahead.
- [99:16]
Joel Anderson
No, but, yeah, no, but I, I, I'm, I'm with you on that. So if it's going to be like that, then, and we, we're going to become college fans, become NFL fans, I'd be like, all right, that happens to be the champion this year. But I kind of, I guess as an older dude, I kind of like the, every game, you know, like that loss in Michigan should count for something. Like it should be now in this way. It just made Ohio State mad. But it used to be that. Oh, man, like the whole program crumbles. Ryan Day has to go away. Caleb Downs is back in the portal, all that kind of stuff.
- [99:48]
Van Lathan
And there's a cultural question in Columbus right now, too, with my Ohio State fans. And the question is, it sounds stupid to people who don't understand college football and don't understand the rivalry, but it's a question that's very much on the mind of people up there. And the question is, would you rather beat Michigan or would you rather win a national championship? Now, the answer seems obvious. There's no Ohio State fan right now on the precipice of winning the national championship that's going to say, oh, man, like, blah, blah, blah, blah, like, this doesn't matter as much. But then the day after the Michigan loss, the week after the Michigan loss, like when they were talking about Ryan Day, the way that they were talking about Ryan Day, they would have, they'd be lying to you if they'd have told you right now that that wasn't a soul crushing moment, that not even a national championship could completely repair and heal.
- [100:43]
Joel Anderson
Right. I think that there's still questions. Even if he wins the national championship, is this the right guy? You know, like, is this the right guy?
- [100:53]
Bill Simmons
That's hilarious though.
- [100:54]
Joel Anderson
Yeah.
- [100:54]
Van Lathan
He's lost to Michigan four times in a row. Like, are you Bill? Are you familiar with the Bayou Classic? I brought this up on Rossillo's podcast. Shout out to Riggs. But the Bayou Classic at Southern University. Rest in peace, dad. Like, they would rather beat Grambling than win the swac. That's a no brainer. Like, it's a one game super bowl. That means everything from some people that are traveling from up north in Louisiana down to New Orleans, us making a shorter drive. And it's all on the line right there. And that's just the way college football is. And if you ever get to a point where Ohio State fans will care even a Centella less about beating Michigan, you've lost the whole sport.
- [101:37]
Bill Simmons
Notre Dame. Can you walk me through the relationship Notre Dame has now in 2025 with America? Because I know what it meant in the 70s and 80s. To me, it felt like the biggest school on the planet forever. And then all of a sudden it wasn't. And then it came back and now where are we in 2025?
- [101:55]
Joel Anderson
I mean, I think it's still probably personal for it probably is the pro, the program that your grandmother is most likely to recognize. Right? It does have that. And it no longer has the cachet. I mean, there was a time this large, Catholic, wealthy university, own network, it had all these advantages over everybody else. Well, we all know that that's not even true. They lost a coach to lsu. Like, we're not in. You know, no disrespect, Van, you know, but LSU is not Bama. It's not Texas, it's not Ohio State.
- [102:26]
Bill Simmons
God, this is like shots fired.
- [102:28]
Joel Anderson
Just saying.
- [102:30]
Bill Simmons
Jesus.
- [102:30]
Joel Anderson
I grew up. When I grew up, LSU was a seven and five ass program. No, it's seven and four.
- [102:35]
Bill Simmons
Oh, my God.
- [102:37]
Joel Anderson
Before Kevin Falk, I'm worried I'm gonna.
- [102:39]
Bill Simmons
Get hit by a bullet.
- [102:40]
Van Lathan
Okay?
- [102:40]
Joel Anderson
Before Kevin Falk went to lsu and then definitely before Nick Saban got there, they were like, if Texas A and M beat or lost to lsu, I'd be like, man, what happened to Texas A and M?
- [102:49]
Van Lathan
So this is bullshit. It is, because LSU was down in the 90s, that's for sure. LSU won the SEC a couple of times in the 80s, which was a hell of a time to win the sec. The program was pretty good. It was a very important. We had to have a Heisman Trophy winner. All of that stuff.
- [103:08]
Joel Anderson
You're talking about Billy Cannon?
- [103:09]
Van Lathan
Yeah, I'm talking about Billy Cannon. 1958. That matters, right?
- [103:15]
Bill Simmons
Do I get to count my Celtics title from 1958?
- [103:19]
Van Lathan
Y'all count all them titles from back. You don't count like y'all count all of the titles from back in the segregated days in Boston, not in the NBA. But. But what I'm saying is lsu, when we came into college football, was down in the 90s. And the reason why the program was down. I'm not about to do a whole LSU defense is because a lot of the best players from Louisiana were escaping. Warwick Dunn didn't go to lsu. Cordell Stewart didn't go to lsu. So many of these people. What happened was Nick Saban was able to reorient. And Jerry DiNardo, to a degree, was able to reorient the position of LSU in Louisiana, where we could keep some of the talent back at home. And when that started, we became a perennial power.
- [104:04]
Joel Anderson
Let me throw this theory at you, because I say that Nick Saban actually integrated the sec, like, the way that he recruited at lsu. If you look at, like, recruiting rankings over those years, like, starting from, like, 98, when Saban gets there, like, every year, like, the SEC school, like, LSU starts creeping up the recruiting rankings, and then slowly but surely, and certainly once he. By the time he goes to Alabama, all the other schools start to catch up, and they're like, oh, yeah, I guess we need to recruit these guys. Because it used to be there was a lot of reticence, like, even in. Even in Texas, like, there was some reticence that the University of Texas, they didn't really recruit the guys out of the urban centers, like Dallas, Houston. Those guys went to Florida State. They went to Michigan or whatever. They didn't go to Texas. And then, like, something happened in the late 90s, early 2000s, and I said, like, Nick Saban, for me, like, when I look back at what he did, I felt like he integrated the SEC in a. In a way, right? And that. And I think that's what was the inflection point for lsu. But prior to that. Come on, man. You know what? Y'all were.
- [105:04]
Van Lathan
No, in the 90s, we were down in the. Oh, come on.
- [105:08]
Bill Simmons
I didn't realize.
- [105:09]
Van Lathan
Billy Cannon.
- [105:10]
Bill Simmons
I forgot about Billy Cannon's high school.
- [105:12]
Van Lathan
Billy Cannon's.
- [105:13]
Bill Simmons
You know what really happened? Shaq went to LSU. Boy, Shaq went to. Shaq went to LSU, and it bankrupted the whole school for, like, 10 years.
- [105:20]
Van Lathan
They're still paying us.
- [105:22]
Joel Anderson
They still hired checks.
- [105:23]
Van Lathan
They hired a guy.
- [105:25]
Joel Anderson
This is.
- [105:25]
Van Lathan
And this is a cautionary tale for any college program. They hired a guy named Curly Hallman.
- [105:32]
Bill Simmons
For most programs, never trust a Curly.
- [105:35]
Van Lathan
And by the way, we're talking about Bama. It's so interesting that people go. LSU is not Bama. Bama was down for 10 years, too. Bama was down, super down. We were kicking Bama's ass every single year until Saban comes to Bama. The first year Saban was at Bama, Bama loses to UL Monroe. So what I'm saying is any program out there, right? You look at when Bobby Bowden leaves Florida State, what Florida State has to go through until Jimbo Fisher gets there. You look at Texas and Mack Brown, Texas is just getting back. It doesn't matter what color your blood is in college football. If it's blue, if it's red, whatever it is, you are one bad coaching hire. One bad coaching hire. When we were coming up, Nebraska was an unquestionable blue blood. Right? Tommy Frazier, Lawrence Phillips, all of these guys haven't been nationally relevant since Colorado. You're one bad hire. One bad hire. Two, maybe at the most, from being in a situation you don't want to be in.
- [106:37]
Joel Anderson
I wasn't saying LSU was Indiana. I'm saying that y'all would not know the name. No, we would not.
- [106:42]
Van Lathan
We weren't. Nobody.
- [106:43]
Joel Anderson
Nobody ever. Nobody ever.
- [106:44]
Bill Simmons
Shell, don't apologize to him. You're right.
- [106:47]
Joel Anderson
Yeah. Nobody thought of LSU as like this great blue blood program. It's not a good solid program.
- [106:52]
Van Lathan
It's a good solid program. But what I'm saying is that if you are a program and you represent a culture where football is very important, like it is in Louisiana. It's like live or die in Louisiana. It is. Whether it's lsu, Southern High School, whatever, you're actually one coaching hire away from being able to harness the power of your state. LSU was not in the same conversation with Notre Dame, USC or historically, and probably still isn't. But I will say, since 2000, you have three national championships. You've played for a fourth national championship.
- [107:20]
Bill Simmons
Nobody wants to hear your credentials.
- [107:22]
Van Lathan
You won the sec.
- [107:24]
Bill Simmons
This is what we want to do. Your team's not even the championship game.
- [107:27]
Van Lathan
You got two Heisman Trophy winners.
- [107:29]
Joel Anderson
Are you happy with your program? Are you happy? Would you rather sound like a fucking booster?
- [107:33]
Bill Simmons
It's like having Buddy Garrity here talking.
- [107:34]
Van Lathan
About, am I happy with LSU right now? No, I think we should be doing better. But to me, trajectory matters and the entire context of where you are matters. And Coach O, who was a great coach in terms of what he was able to get onto.
- [107:50]
Joel Anderson
What a character, a great coach character.
- [107:52]
Van Lathan
I mean, I'm going to be honest with you in terms of when I say he was a great coach. This is what I mean. If you put together the team that we had in 19 together, you gotta at least have the potential to be a great coach. Right. And so he wasn't a great long term guy. Cause he likes to fuck boosters, wives and allegedly. Whatever. So he wasn't a good long term guy. Right. And he left the program in shambles for what we needed, for the time that we had him. He was good. He took what Les Miles couldn't do, Undefeated season, all of that stuff. Now LSU is getting back to the point to where people in South Louisiana are looking for real results from Brian Kelly, and we'll see in the next couple years if he can deliver him.
- [108:33]
Bill Simmons
Can I throw a hottest take at you guys? Most important guy this century for the sec, Dante Culpepper.
- [108:39]
Van Lathan
Why?
- [108:40]
Bill Simmons
Because if Saban picks Drew Brees over Dante Culpepper, he never goes to Alabama. And then what happens to the sec?
- [108:47]
Van Lathan
What are you talking about? We would have been Alabama.
- [108:49]
Bill Simmons
Would you have? Would you have, man, no.
- [108:54]
Joel Anderson
With less miles.
- [108:55]
Bill Simmons
For real.
- [108:55]
Van Lathan
No.
- [108:56]
Bill Simmons
I don't know if that hottest take worked, but I wanted to fire it off anyway.
- [108:59]
Joel Anderson
That was very interesting, because I don't.
- [109:01]
Bill Simmons
I still think Saban's in the NFL now. If he has Drew Brees, he would have had Drew Brees for 15 years.
- [109:05]
Van Lathan
Oh, no, I got. Actually, I was confused. You're saying he went to. So if Nick Saban. What I meant to say is Saban.
- [109:12]
Bill Simmons
Picked Culpepper over Drew Brees because Drew.
- [109:14]
Van Lathan
Had a search shoulder. What I was saying is I got a little turned around. I was saying is if Saban never leaves lsu, we'd have been Bama. We wouldn't have been Bama with Les Miles.
- [109:21]
Joel Anderson
Oh, yeah.
- [109:23]
Van Lathan
So you're saying if he stays in Miami and he has a lot of success there, then he never comes back and. Yeah.
- [109:29]
Bill Simmons
What happens?
- [109:30]
Van Lathan
I mean, look. Yeah, for sure. I mean, that's the way things happen, right?
- [109:32]
Joel Anderson
I'll say that if Saban stayed at lsu, LSU would have been better than Bama. Like, LSU has a lot more going for it as a program. And in terms of what it's like, potential is as opposed to Bama, I think.
- [109:44]
Van Lathan
But all I'm saying is this. Whatever. Like, I've spent my life watching LSU football. I can tell you this with the talent that is inside of Louisiana. When you look at the guys that we got out there, and y'all can say whatever y'all want to say, right? About lsu? About whatever. People can say whatever, man. Ja'marr, Chase, Jefferson. Jefferson. When you look at the talent in the NFL, I'm not talking about guys who just came through.
- [110:10]
Joel Anderson
I mean, BTJ, neighbors and BTs, neighbors and Thomas.
- [110:13]
Van Lathan
I'm talking about guys that are from our wide receiver factory, like Derek Stingley. When you talk about guys that are from our state, if we can recruit our state, we'll be competitive with anyone.
- [110:24]
Bill Simmons
Can we switch gears? Because we're running out of time. All right, Joel, rip it off. Your five favorite things about college football this season. Van and I are the audience. I made you have a list. You can go five to one or one to five. Your choice.
- [110:33]
Joel Anderson
I was going to. I was going to go five to one.
- [110:35]
Bill Simmons
Let's do it.
- [110:36]
Joel Anderson
Okay, real quick, Bill, did you follow Holy cross football from 2021 to 2023?
- [110:41]
Bill Simmons
Yes.
- [110:42]
Joel Anderson
You did?
- [110:43]
Bill Simmons
I was into it.
- [110:43]
Joel Anderson
The quarterback play.
- [110:45]
Bill Simmons
Well, he went to UNLV and then left after three games.
- [110:48]
Van Lathan
Yeah.
- [110:48]
Joel Anderson
So, like, that was my number five thing. Matt Sluka going to unlv. Because first of all, like, I think it was one of the rare things where it ended up okay for everybody. But for people that don't know Sluka, go. He was the quarterback at Holy Cross, transfers to unlv, plays the first three games. UNLV looks great. Like, I was like, man, UNLV is great. Got a good damn football program. What happened there? Well, it turns out that he says he. He decides to sit out the rest of the season and take a red shirt because the school didn't follow through on whatever promises they allegedly made about Nil. And I thought, well, the follow through.
- [111:20]
Bill Simmons
Is they didn't fucking pay him. They like, he. Whatever the money was. I don't. I just don't think he got it.
- [111:25]
Joel Anderson
They promised him 100,000 and he only got, like, a thousand. Right. And I don't know which the. It's still unclear, like, what the difference is here and why those expectations weren't met. But it's like one of these things where you could project your feelings about the Nil era onto the player in this situation. And if you like me and you like players getting paid, I didn't mind him withholding his labor until he got what he felt was promised. And if you don't like it, it was about, like, these spoiled and entitled college players prioritizing money over the team. So I thought it was like a really, you know, like a fun story that didn't ultimately hurt anybody because UNLV still was badass and sleuth.
- [112:01]
Bill Simmons
Well, wait, though. There was a third piece to it, though, which is you have, like, thousands of these business deals being cut left and right. Right. With teenage kids or kids who are 20, 21. With these different colleges, they're probably not. They're just like, yeah, yeah, we'll get you 25,000 by. So there's so much room for sleaziness that I don't think we've ever seen before. We've only had this with boosters before.
- [112:23]
Van Lathan
You're just seeing now the opportunity for people to get in People's ears and promise things that they can't then deliver on. And the college athlete who is now in a brand new world that's kind of like the wild, wild west with not a lot of protections or structures there to protect them or their family or protect the schools either. You're just seeing a lot of promises not being met. We'll see who has the power. At the end of the day, it's.
- [112:50]
Bill Simmons
Either the wild, wild west or it's like that new Netflix show where just everybody gets brutally murdered. What's that show? American Something. The Western. Tim Riggins is on it. It was on Netflix. It's like set in the 1800s. Everybody just kills everybody.
- [113:02]
Van Lathan
Oh, is that Roots?
- [113:04]
Bill Simmons
No, no, it's Peter Bergsten show. It's called American Something. It's about Wyoming and just. It's like 1883.
- [113:14]
Van Lathan
More violent. Anyway.
- [113:15]
Bill Simmons
All right.
- [113:17]
Joel Anderson
Wow. All right. I want to move to number four. So. You know, Nick Saban was actually trying to be honest earlier this year when he said the only place you play in the SEC that's not hard to play is in Vanderbilt. And then it's like, not even a month later, Alabama goes into Vanderbilt and loses for the first time since 1984. Man. Got their ass beat. Vanderbilt scored 40 points on them. They didn't look into those points. They beat their ass. And it was just hilarious because, first of all, you also get to see Bama fans go crazy now.
- [113:48]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [113:48]
Joel Anderson
You say they've been. They've lived an unprecedented ride for like the last 15 to 20 years. And to see their faces and to see how they responded to losing the Vandy in the first year post Saban, it was hilarious. So that was that. That I had to put that at number four.
- [114:02]
Van Lathan
Good bun.
- [114:03]
Bill Simmons
Right. I would also add for Saban, I loved when Shane Gillis made fun of him and Saban didn't know how to handle. It was one of my favorite TV moments in a while.
- [114:11]
Van Lathan
Right.
- [114:12]
Joel Anderson
Do you like it?
- [114:13]
Bill Simmons
Saban had no sense of humor about it.
- [114:16]
Van Lathan
No.
- [114:16]
Bill Simmons
He was like, who the fuck is this guy? He's saying we cheated. And by the way, how does he know?
- [114:21]
Joel Anderson
Yeah. Did he say anything about charges? Anything? He didn't say anything about a Dodge Charger.
- [114:27]
Bill Simmons
No, he was just talking. He made a paying the players joke.
- [114:30]
Van Lathan
Yeah. And Saban was just fucking with it. Yeah.
- [114:32]
Bill Simmons
Anyway, number three.
- [114:34]
Joel Anderson
Number three. So if you are like me, since I followed college football, the idea of Arizona State football has always been like, man, Arizona, why isn't Arizona State any good? You know, they've got all the, they're in a fast growing area, they got a lot of sun. It's like a school. Like academics ain't gonna be in the problem. And you know, if you like me and you saw, you know, the playboy edition of Pac 10, you know, Pac 10 seasons like Arizona, you know what I'm saying? It's rolling.
- [115:00]
Van Lathan
You say Elite Milk.
- [115:02]
Joel Anderson
Yeah, you said it, not me. I can't. You know what I'm saying? I'm a family man.
- [115:06]
Van Lathan
I am too, but the truth is the truth.
- [115:12]
Joel Anderson
So anyway, about Frank Clinch. No, I'm just kidding. But, but man, like, Arizona State was dope this year, man. Like you kind of see, it's like, oh man, Arizona State's good. They might have like a future. They got a 34 year old coach he can recruit. You know, they got a little offense they're not going to get. Cam Scatterboat, like I call that dude Pocket Gronk. Like, I don't know if he's going to be good in the NFL or whatever, but like as a college character, he was perfect for like Arizona State.
- [115:40]
Bill Simmons
I think as a fourth rounder, he's a must. Like once you get past the second round, you're just like throwing darts against.
- [115:47]
Van Lathan
The dartboard, taking a flyer on him.
- [115:49]
Bill Simmons
I mean, look, could he be like Tyler Algier?
- [115:52]
Van Lathan
What you do know is he has an incredible skill set. He can do a lot of different things on the football field. He might not have all the measurables. I'm sure he'll run like four, six or four.
- [116:01]
Joel Anderson
Like damn, four, six.
- [116:02]
Van Lathan
Yeah, but, but he is a football player. Yeah, he's so competitive.
- [116:07]
Bill Simmons
Who's been good since he was probably, what, 7 years old.
- [116:10]
Van Lathan
He's always found, found a way, always.
- [116:12]
Bill Simmons
I'm in on that, dude.
- [116:13]
Van Lathan
The tape always matters more to me than the measurables. Your tape always matters more.
- [116:17]
Bill Simmons
It feels like he's going to have some moment where somebody's starting running back will get hurt next year or a year from now and that guy's going to go in and have like 110 yards and be the big fantasy pickup. Yeah, God only knows.
- [116:27]
Joel Anderson
I mean, that dude beasted against Texas and like Texas has all the athletes you could think of and he was, he was awesome.
- [116:32]
Bill Simmons
All right, number two.
- [116:34]
Joel Anderson
Number two. This was the first Heisman race in about a decade where QB wasn't a serious contender. And I love that because we had, we could talk about Travis Hunter. Who, I don't know, I've never seen anything like that in College football. Like, maybe if you go down a level or something, or you could say, oh, there's a guy that played, you know, a thousand snaps in a season. But I've never seen anybody do that and excel in the way that Travis Hunter did. And like there was a game this year against UCF, he had nine passes for 89 yards, a touchdown, a pass breakup and interception. And he was on the field for 128of143snaps in that game. And I'm just like, yo. Like, I. I don't know what more you could. Like, people thought Charles Woodson was amazing because he played a few snaps at receiver. No, like, Travis Hunter was doing something else. Totally. And like the Ashton Genty kid, I just get on the soapbox for a second. If you think that Ashton Gente got exposed against Penn State, you were stupid. Like, I literally think that you don't know ball because the dude, like, if you watch that defense and him like that guy, it took everything in that Penn State defense and they focused all their efforts on them because they. Because Boise couldn't pass and that dude still hammered out a hundred yards. There was a. There was a 10 yard run early in the fourth quarter with six Penn State guys got a hand on that guy. Yeah, man. Yeah. So I love him.
- [117:56]
Bill Simmons
So it felt like they were almost running like a goal line defense on him.
- [117:59]
Van Lathan
Yeah.
- [117:59]
Bill Simmons
But I mean, he's getting crushed.
- [118:01]
Van Lathan
It was tough yards, but every yard that he got, he had to take it from the defense. So he just, he proved to me what a good back he was by his performance in that game.
- [118:09]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [118:10]
Joel Anderson
Abdul Carter is supposedly a badass and he got hurt tackling Ashton in that game, you know what I'm saying? So anyway, and so he's.
- [118:16]
Bill Simmons
So Hunter's your favorite because obviously I'm moving into. I have the fourth pick in the draft with my beloved Patriots because we fucked up the last game of the season. But Carter is one of the guys. The fan base is kind of. We have a new coach. He wants to build around the lines. But like, look at this guy. I mean, he could be amazing pass rusher, but he's probably not going to be there at 4. I feel like he's going to go before that, man.
- [118:37]
Joel Anderson
Yeah.
- [118:37]
Bill Simmons
I mean, it feels like a Will Anderson situation. Right. Where he'll just go second.
- [118:41]
Van Lathan
I mean, if he does get drafted high, I mean, a lot of people say. But my thing is this. If you guys. If Will Anderson. Will Anderson. Will Campbell. Homer pick. Will Campbell is still on the board. When you guys are drafting, you guys should take the left tackle.
- [118:52]
Bill Simmons
Or we. Yes, I think that's where we probably end up. So you would play Hunter D back or receiver?
- [118:57]
Joel Anderson
D back. Because it's so much harder to find guys with that skill set at that position. You can get a receiver, maybe not as talented as Travis, but you could get something, a reasonable approximation. On defense, though, that's just not. This is that cat's like.
- [119:11]
Bill Simmons
Cause it seems like the. The move with him and maybe he ends up on the pats, I don't know. But cornerback and then special packages and maybe third and third and eight and up he comes in and he's like your third receiver. And so maybe he's like 10 offensive plays a game and then cornerback, which even that would be like. Nobody's doing that now, right?
- [119:31]
Van Lathan
I mean, look, I don't know what the feasibility is of him playing too much, going both ways in the NFL from a wear and tear situation. Travis has been injured before, so I don't know what the feasibility is of it. I know if I was him, I would want to play the receiver. If I was him, just for the money, however, it is warm out, they're going to want him.
- [119:53]
Bill Simmons
It's like 30 million a year at least.
- [119:55]
Van Lathan
Yeah, they're probably going to want him to play db, but if I was him, I would want to find my way to.
- [120:02]
Bill Simmons
It's so much fun. I remember as a kid, or I wasn't a kid, I guess I was in college when Deion, he was the D back. But then every once in a while, they would play him at receiver. Every time he came in, it was so fucking exciting. It was like, are they gonna throw a bubble screen? He's just gonna throw it deep for him. It was like you couldn't take your ass off it. All right, number one.
- [120:19]
Joel Anderson
Number one. This is kind of obvious. I mean, it just. There was just nothing that was gonna indicate that Michigan was even gonna be competitive with Ohio State. Like, Ohio State was a 19 1/2 point favorite coming into that game. They had a $20 million roster. Michigan didn't even have their best player that game. Like cornerback Will Johnson, he was out that game. And this was like, they had it all set up. They're at home. They can exact revenge on this team and just totally exorcise all those demons. And they lost to like the brokest dick offensive team. I mean, I saw at that, like, I mean, they cannot throw a forward pass on that team.
- [120:57]
Van Lathan
It's the most. It's one of the most embarrassing and shocking college football losses I've seen. Really. Maybe. Maybe since Michigan lost to Appalachian State a couple of decades before. Like, you know what I mean? I struggle to explain how that game happened in the way that it did.
- [121:20]
Bill Simmons
With the stakes for Ohio State, with.
- [121:22]
Van Lathan
The stakes for Ohio State, when everything was. With everything that was on the line for Ohio State in terms of what they were playing for, structurally, in terms of a college football championship, but also culturally, like the fact that they had been getting their asses kicked and Harbaugh was there, and this was the time for them to actually win that game, 31 to 10. They couldn't fucking do it. And not only that, they got fucking manhandled and got their goddamn manhood taken by their arch rivals. I could not believe it.
- [121:49]
Bill Simmons
I love this theory that that loss was worse than the. The high of winning a title.
- [121:55]
Van Lathan
But let me tell you something.
- [121:55]
Bill Simmons
That's a really interesting seesaw.
- [121:56]
Joel Anderson
And diluted home, too. I mean, like, they did it on your home field, bro.
- [122:00]
Van Lathan
I'll be honest with you, though. I think that loss catapulted them into a national championship run.
- [122:06]
Joel Anderson
It made them mad.
- [122:07]
Van Lathan
They got pissed off, they got embarrassed. They just have not played anywhere nearly like the same team since the unbeatable behemoth that we were told Ohio State was going to be this year. They've played that way subsequently to that loss. So that says a lot about their staff and really, a lot about their players and their program, to be honest with you.
- [122:27]
Bill Simmons
Do you guys like Ohio State fans?
- [122:30]
Van Lathan
No.
- [122:30]
Bill Simmons
Okay.
- [122:31]
Van Lathan
No.
- [122:31]
Bill Simmons
All right.
- [122:32]
Joel Anderson
I have one thing to say, and I have a theory. And, you know, I know concussion came out nine years ago, but I talked about this on the press box. I think Ohio State's quarterback got a concussion in the second quarter. I think Will Howard got a concussion. Cause he went. He missed a play for a head. They said they were looking at his head. He said he was okay. He went back in the game, and he never looked at the. So that's just. I know that football. We've moved on from that, like, the worrying about CTE and everything, but I kind of feel like that dude had a head injury.
- [122:58]
Bill Simmons
I'm. I'm. I will always, for the rest of my life, think Mahomes got a concussion. That Bengals game at the end of the first half. And he was never the same after that moment. And that was when they lost. And I still can't believe they didn't make the super bowl there.
- [123:11]
Van Lathan
You know what? You guys are. I'm getting so Sick of this conversation. This bleeding heart liberal bullshit that I'm listening to. You guys are talking like it's 2018, right? I forgot.
- [123:22]
Bill Simmons
It's Trump's America now.
- [123:23]
Van Lathan
The unwokening has happened.
- [123:24]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [123:25]
Van Lathan
Scramble their brains, okay? Like, if I see you out there wearing one of those soft helmets, I'm gonna start trolling you and your family. Scramble that. Like, scramble. Scramble their brains. It's over. We don't have to care anymore. We don't have to care about nothing.
- [123:39]
Bill Simmons
The great unwokening.
- [123:40]
Van Lathan
The great unwokening has happened. We don't have to care about nothing. Put Tua right back in the game right now. Put him right back in. I don't care. I don't have to care. No more. No more marches.
- [123:52]
Bill Simmons
All right. We have to run. Van, a pleasure. Joel, awesome to finally have you on. Yeah, man.
- [123:58]
Joel Anderson
I had a lot of fun with you guys, man.
- [124:00]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, we'll do it again.
- [124:01]
Van Lathan
Easy on lsu.
- [124:05]
Bill Simmons
All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Joel and to Van. Thanks to Kyle and Gahao and Saruti for producing. As always, don't forget you can watch clips and videos from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. And don't forget, part two of the Thursday extravaganza is coming later tonight. NFL. Lots of it. See you in a couple hours. Must be 21 plus in President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + in President D.C. gambling problem. Call 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-887-89-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-550 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text hopeny in New York.