Part 1: An NBA Popularity Check and Tyson’s Big Comeback With Wosny Lambre and Van Lathan

Summary

The Bill Simmons Podcast – Part 1: An NBA Popularity Check and Tyson’s Big Comeback

Hosts:
Bill Simmons (Host)
Van Lathan
Wosny Lambre

Episode Overview:
In the first part of this two-part episode, Bill Simmons delves into the current state of the NBA, analyzing team performances, player dynamics, and the league's evolving popularity. Additionally, the conversation shifts to the highly anticipated comeback fight involving Mike Tyson, providing insights and predictions.

---

1. Introduction to NBA Popularity and Ratings Decline

Bill Simmons kicks off the discussion by addressing the paradox of declining NBA ratings despite increasing interest in the league. He questions whether the NBA is in better, worse, or the same shape as it has been in recent years.

"A league that is having its games watched less but feels like it matters more and what's going on and we all have theories on this."
[36:37] Bill Simmons

2. Chicago Bulls’ Unexpected Performance

Van Lathan praises the Chicago Bulls, expressing surprise at their strong performance contrary to initial expectations.

"They haven't gotten rid of...they're just so well coached."
[04:11] Van Lathan

Bill Simmons concurs, highlighting Zach LaVine's improved role and the team's overall chemistry.

"They're five and seven, which sounds like it's bad, but that's the sixth seed right now in these."
[05:08] Bill Simmons

3. The Second Amendment Era and Player Contracts

The hosts discuss the impact of the "second apron" (likely referring to the NBA's salary cap and player contracts) on team dynamics and player mobility. They cite examples like Julius Randle and Trae Young, questioning the marketability of star players who produce high stats but command large contracts.

"There's no given wins. And then even the Wizards on some nights of Frisky and I think Brooklyn, Brooklyn's another one."
[09:20] Van Lathan

4. Social Media’s Influence on Player Performance

Bill Simmons and Van Lathan explore how social media and the gambling aspect contribute to maintaining high performance levels among players. They argue that the constant scrutiny makes it difficult for players to underperform without facing immediate backlash.

"With the fantasy and the gambling. Gambling aspect, that might play a part."
[10:25] Van Lathan

5. Giannis Antetokounmpo and Team Dynamics

The conversation shifts to the Milwaukee Bucks and Giannis Antetokounmpo, discussing the team's reliance on Giannis and the potential vulnerabilities if he were to underperform.

"If anything happens to Giannis for a month, that team's going to be a bottom five team in the league."
[21:01] Bill Simmons

6. Changing Role of Big Men in the NBA

Van Lathan and Bill Simmons analyze the evolving role of big men like Jalen Brunson and Karl-Anthony Towns, emphasizing the need for versatility and adaptability in modern basketball.

"The Towns and Brunson pick and roll is clearly difficult to deal with."
[18:48] Van Lathan

7. The Challenge of Building Superstar Stars in the Modern NBA

The hosts debate the difficulty of creating charismatic and marketable superstars in today's NBA, comparing current players to legends like Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan. They suggest that the lack of compelling personal narratives and the overemphasis on statistics may hinder the league’s star-making ability.

"Skills make champions, stories make stars."
[50:52] Big Wos

8. Mike Tyson’s Comeback Fight

Transitioning from basketball, the conversation shifts to Mike Tyson's anticipated comeback fight against Jake Paul. The hosts reminisce about Tyson's legendary status and discuss the potential outcomes of his fight with the young celebrity boxer.

"Mike Tysons comeback, which is a big Tyson fight against one of the Paul brothers."
[67:03] Big Wos

Van Lathan expresses skepticism about Tyson's chances given his age (58 years old) but acknowledges Tyson's enduring legacy and unpredictable nature in the ring.

"I just can't believe he's going to hit this guy enough times to win."
[81:08] Bill Simmons

Wosny Lambre shares anecdotes from the gym, highlighting Jake Paul's serious approach to boxing and his capability, making the fight more credible than previous celebrity matches.

"Jake used to come in the gym... Jake fucked this guy up."
[85:32] Big Wos

9. Reflection on Boxing and NBA Storytelling

The hosts draw parallels between boxing's ability to create compelling narratives and the NBA's struggle to do the same in the modern media landscape. They emphasize the importance of storytelling in building enduring sports narratives that engage fans beyond just the gameplay.

"Skills make champions, stories make stars."
[50:52] Big Wos

---

Notable Quotes:

• Van Lathan on Bulls' Surprise Performance:
  "The guy looks rejuvenated. They've been, to me, the team that has kind of jumped off the screen, like, wow, I thought you guys were going to be horrible. And you're way better."
  [05:08] Van Lathan

• Bill Simmons on NBA Ratings vs. Interest:
  "Is the NBA in better, worse or the same shape?"
  [36:37] Bill Simmons

• Wosny Lambre on Mike Tyson's Humanity:
  "He is brutally human."
  [74:34] Big Wos

• Discussion on Superstar Building:
  "Skills make champions, stories make stars."
  [50:52] Big Wos

Conclusion:

Part 1 of this podcast episode offers an in-depth analysis of the current NBA landscape, addressing team performances, player dynamics, and the challenges of maintaining and growing the league's popularity in a rapidly evolving media environment. The discussion seamlessly transitions to the world of boxing, drawing insightful comparisons between the two sports and their respective approaches to storytelling and star creation. With engaging conversations and thought-provoking insights, this episode serves as a comprehensive check-in on the state of the NBA and the enduring allure of legendary figures like Mike Tyson.

Transcript

[Todd McShay]

What's happening? It's Todd McShay and I'm back with a new home and a new show at the Ringer and Spotify. The McShay Show. It's a video and audio podcast coming to you year round with all my NFL draft information, big boards, mock drafts and player movement. Plus, I'll be chatting with some of my best friends in football, including some of your favorite football analysts during the week. We'll have episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays that will include discussions about my player rankings, who's rising, who's falling, and who your NFL team should be keeping an eye on. Plus, we'll be reacting each week to the College Football Playoff polls and giving you previews and picks for each Saturday slate. In addition, I'll have episodes on Saturday nights with my immediate reaction to the full day in college football every week. So if you love the college game, the NFL, the draft, or all of it like me, make sure to like, follow, subscribe and get ready for the McShay show on the Ringer, Spotify and wherever you watch or listen to podcasts.

[Bill Simmons]

This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by Ray Ban Meta Smart Glasses Built with Meta AI Ray Ban Meta Smart glasses react to what you see so you can learn more about the world around you. You can also take hands free photos, videos, send messages, make video calls, even play music and podcasts straight from your glasses with Ray Ban Meta. This episode is brought to you by the all new reimagined Nissan Kicks. From the bold new exterior to the performance and tech features like intelligent all wheel drive and a Bose Personal plus sound system. Cars where I live I live in the Los Angeles area and cars are one of the most important things you can have because you're in them a lot. Because you got to drive around all over the place. You know what's fun? To have a nice car for an everyday commute, to have music and the ability to do hands free stuff. And just to feel safe, you can do it. Drive the all new reimagined Nissan Kicks today. Head over to Nissan USA to learn more. Bose Personal plus Sound System is an available feature. Bose is a registered trademark in the Bose Corporation. Intelligent all wheel drive cannot prevent collisions or provide enhanced traction in all conditions. Always monitor traffic and weather conditions. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network put up a new rewatchables on Monday. We did meet the parents you can watch on The Ringer Movies YouTube channel as well. You can watch a whole bunch of rewatchables podcast on that as well. You can watch all the clips and videos from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. We got a two parter today. I don't know. Lot going on. Wanted to talk basketball and wanted to talk about the Tyson fight and why NBA ratings are going down as interest seems to be going up. So I have big W, I have Van Lathan, they're joining us for part one. And then part two is going to be a football podcast that's going up later tonight after I want to see what happens with that Eagles Washington game too. So part two will go up much later. Part one's going up early. And let's bring in our friends from pro jab.

[Todd McShay]

All right.

[Bill Simmons]

Big wise is here, 12:30 Thursday afternoon. Last time I saw you, we were doing the league pass rankings.

[Van Lathan]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

And trying to figure out who we like the most, who we were the most excited to watch. What's changed for you since the season has started? Has there been a team jump out? Has there been somebody that captured your fancy? Has there been a new league pass mistress for you that you didn't expect to be cheating on with some of the other favorites?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, it's. And I owe a big apology to Justin Barrier. It's the Chicago Bulls. Oh, look at you. You thought the Bulls were going to be fun and Josh Kitty was going to have this new role and DeMar DeRozan was going to open things up. But like they've been way better than I could have expected. Obviously they beat the Knicks last night on a crazy last second foul on a three point shot. But they're just so well coached.

[Bill Simmons]

Kobe White's hair got fouled.

[Van Lathan]

I know.

[Bill Simmons]

I really think that's what happened. I thought he hit his hair. I've never seen that before.

[Van Lathan]

That is what happened.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think he actually fouled them.

[Van Lathan]

But, you know, he airballed the shot to make it look like he got hit pretty bad. But yeah, it's Kobe White, Zach lavine, who I don't know if it's. He's found clarity in his role on the Bulls or if he's really dying to get traded because he was so unhappy this off season. Like, I just thought, you know, they lost their most consistent player in DeRozan. Zach LaVine has been sulking for like a year and a half. Yeah, they're bringing in Josh Giddey, ushering a kind of youth movement kind of thing. I just thought they would stink and it's been the opposite. And Vucevic has been playing Some of the best ball of his career. He's taking and making threes. Like, the guy looks rejuvenated. They've been, to me, the team that has kind of jumped off the screen, like, wow, I thought you guys were going to be horrible. And you're way better.

[Bill Simmons]

They're five and seven, which sounds like it's bad, but that's the sixth seed right now in these. I'm with you. I was thinking about it last night. Watched that Knicks game, everything they seemed like they wanted to do on paper, including like, pick up the pace, play with some pizzazz. It's all happening. I think they're a really, really frisky five and seven team. And Lavine, like, I know, yeah, I get it. He was upset about whatever he's got. I don't know what he's upset about. He's certainly got an amazing contract. But you watched him last night against the Knicks, and my thought was this is actually a great situation for him. He's got guards that push the ball that are pretty. Giddey's pretty unselfish. Right. Kobe Waite, I don't think is like a Trae Young monopolized the ball type guy. And just seems like lavine's in a nice spot. And what stuck out to me yesterday, they win the game on that weird Kobe white foul, get the Brunson toilet bowl in and out to win it. But you watch the way their bench was celebrating. It actually seems like they liked each other.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Last year did not.

[Van Lathan]

No, it was, man, last year was toxic. As by all indication, when you talk to people who was in and around the team at that time. And I think with Vucevich and Patrick Williams, who I'm still like, whoa, what were they thinking with that contract?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he's like one of those. What do you do?

[Van Lathan]

I don't know if it's the three or the two.

[Bill Simmons]

What's your specialty?

[Van Lathan]

I don't know. I'm still trying to figure it out. But he's been a more willing shooter. And like with Vucevich finally being a stretch four, lavine is playing with like a really spaced out floor in front of him. And the guy is really talented. Like, he's not afraid. Well, this year he's not been afraid to take it to the basket. And there were just some isolation plays last night in the fourth quarter where it just felt like the Knicks had no chance against Zach lavine, which, like, when's the last time you've said that about Zach Levine? He looks incredible. And then you know, the Knicks.

[Bill Simmons]

Wait, hold on. On Zach Levine, because I want to talk about the Knicks. I was thinking about him. Brandon Ingram.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I think Trae Young's about to be in this boat. These guys that got these big deals.

[Big Wos]

Julius Randle.

[Bill Simmons]

Julius Randle. These guys that are being paid like they're superstars, they do put up production and yet there's not a market for them. And it's because of the second apron. Kurt Goldsberg was talking about my pod on Tuesday. It's just, it's changed the dynamic of roster building, of how we think about players, where you take somebody like Brandon Ingram, who was available all summer for anybody who wanted to offer anything, and they couldn't trade him. Now he's scoring 23, 24 a game. Sak Levine, same thing. And we're moving into this new era of these guys that it's like, well, this is my price. I don't want to pay that. I'm stuck with you. But you're still producing. Yeah, I don't remember another era like this. The only time I could think was that 2000s, when guys were getting those six, seven year deals and you would just be like, ah, I guess we have Allen Houston now for the entire decade.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, I think that's the difference between now and 20. Like 11 or 12, which is like, when I first became a regular on league pass, it was like, whoever the Bulls were, when they decided that they were gonna stink up the joint, they were going to have basically three rotation worthy guys in the starting lineup. And everybody else was kind of gonna be like, okay, this team is headed for 17 wins. Yeah, they're playing the lottery game and whatever. Nowadays, like the Bulls, we expected to be a bottom four Eastern Conference team, but because they haven't gotten rid of like, they would have sold off Vucevic, they would have sold off lavine, they would have sold everything off. But now, because they kept those guys, like, they're just not a given win. There's no like given wins. And then even the Wizards on some nights of Frisky and I think Brooklyn, Brooklyn's another one.

[Bill Simmons]

Brooklyn's another one.

[Van Lathan]

Charlotte. Yeah, like, there's Toronto. There's no process Sixers is what I always say. Like that process Sixers team where Michael Carter Williams was leading that team in scoring for an entire season, that was insane.

[Bill Simmons]

And we were like, he's not good. And he like, when the rookie of the year, it's like, well, he's 20 points a game.

[Van Lathan]

Exactly.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, this is a really interesting point. Can you have tanking when there's too much talent in the league? Because I think about that with Brooklyn. I watched Brooklyn. I saw them in person on Friday. I talked about on the pod, watched him yesterday. The Celtics played really well and beat them and they played one of their best games. But I watched Brooklyn. I'm like, I know they wanted to be terrible. It's going to be really hard to be terrible with some of the guys in this team. Like, Schroder is a above average point guard. Cam Johnson's good. Cam Thomas is a 28A game guy. Now they have shot blocking. This is not like in 2013, 14 when you could just be like, yeah, we're going to throw a year away. Like, think about what the Lakers had during the last couple of Kobe years where it was like, here's Kobe and nobody else.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, it's so different. And I don't know, I don't know if it's just the talent. Like these dudes have just come out and played with a lot of pride. Like just quite frankly.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you think it's social media? Like, I wonder if it's just hard to suck now because if you suck.

[Van Lathan]

With the fantasy and the gambling. Gambling aspect, that. That might play a part.

[Bill Simmons]

Man, I feel like it's social media. Cause I was thinking about this. Vince Carter got his number retired in Toronto. And I was just thinking how fucking crazy that is.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, that where he started.

[Bill Simmons]

Cause I was writing for years pin back then and he completely tanked on them that year to the point that.

[Van Lathan]

I was reading those columns.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he tanked on the point that the trade that they made for him is probably the worst superstar trade anyone's made. They had to like take back Alonzo Mourning's contract and a couple other bad contracts. They got two shitty picks. It was like a 20 cents in the dollar giveaway. And it was because he stopped playing for them. But we didn't have the apparatus we have now to be like, oh my God, did you see what Vince Carter did last night? Like, he just didn't give a shit. I don't feel like anybody can do that now.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, but I mean that. It's really hard to explain why none of these teams have come out and been, you know, just dog shit. And again, it's early. Like nobody's had to get.

[Bill Simmons]

I guess the dog shit team has probably been Philly.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Sorry, Chris Ryan. But yeah, they stink. But there's a reason for it.

[Bill Simmons]

No, there's a reason for it, but they still stink.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, they've been God awful.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, think about the other day. J.J. d'Angelo Russell had that play in the corner and whatever he did, he got his three pointer blocked. He did some stupid step back and the camera showed JJ So fucking mad and he sat down. He like just like sat in his thing and he was like, like a parent mad at a kid and even that. So now he's like, well, that'll never happen again. Cause he just saw the video of it. It became a big deal. The next day he's like, I can't do that anymore. I just think there's a lot of checks and balances now for bad basketball, lazy basketball, lethargic basketball. People don't give a shit. People going through the motions. I don't know if you can do it anymore.

[Van Lathan]

And I think what's crazy too is that like the NBA because of how they handled some of this load management stuff have been.

[Bill Simmons]

How did they handle it?

[Van Lathan]

Poorly. They've been so effective in messaging that the regular season doesn't matter. This isn't real basketball playoffs where things really start and people are playing hard. That's not been the case to start the season. Like every single one of these games feels like super competitive. People are playing like the people aren't playing with super low motors. There's some teams that are like, seem to have a bit of a hangover. I think Denver started the first four games of the season with a bit of a hangover. Minnesota's hangover has been extended.

[Bill Simmons]

Minnesota's not just hungover. They're like, they're like lying in bed with the shades drying.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, they still can't drive. Yeah, man, they're way old still. Yeah, 100%. But for the most part, man, teams have come out and been playing out the gates like okc. Feels like they got something to prove Cleveland. I got something to prove Cleveland. I mean, my God, they've come out like gangbusters and it's made the regular season excellent for it.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm going to read you some of the 201314 Sixers leading scorer, Evan Turner.

[Van Lathan]

Wow.

[Bill Simmons]

Michael Carter Williams, your rookie of the year, shooting 264 from three and 40% from the field. Thad Young was our number three, Spencer Hawes.

[Van Lathan]

Oh my God.

[Bill Simmons]

Number five, James Anderson. Playing 29 minutes a game, 80 games. Who was James Anderson? I don't. I was. I was on a studio show that year and I don't remember who James Anderson was. James Anderson, he went to first round pick from the. I remember him. Okay. Henry Sims, Tony Rotten, yeah. Tony Roton.

[Van Lathan]

That was a Tony Roton apologist in those days.

[Bill Simmons]

Hollis Thompson, Lavoy Allen was their ninth man. But this is our point. Like, yeah, you look at the 9th man now and the Nets. The game I went to Friday, like, Jalen Wilson's coming. I'm like, this guy's good.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Should he play more?

[Van Lathan]

That Sixers team would challenge the Bobcats into worst win this season in terms of worst win loss record ever. And teams just aren't that horrible. And some of it, like you said, is the second apron where contenders. I think in a different era, Golden State would have looked at. They would have said, you know what? Instead of doing the Melton and Buddy heel to replace Klay, we're going to pull the trigger on Zach Levine in a different era. But now with like all of the.

[Bill Simmons]

Style constraints, the Lakers would already probably have them 100%.

[Van Lathan]

And, you know, maybe they keeping the powder dry for Trae Young, who knows? But, yeah, it's just a different era, man.

[Bill Simmons]

2014 Bucks who were 15 and 67. Brandon Knight led the team in scoring. Ramon Sessions was second. Remember him? A Young Chris Middleton, third. Ilya Silva, John Henson, O.J. mayo. Larry Sanders. Hey, now playing 20 games. But man, and then young Giannis was just.

[Big Wos]

That.

[Bill Simmons]

That was great for young Giannis because Larry San.

[Van Lathan]

Larry Sanders is pissed right now. Kd, like, smokes weed openly.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Larry Sanders, like, I tried this. Why didn't it work for me?

[Van Lathan]

They kicked me out the league for this.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. So if you think about the actual bad teams, Toronto's probably like, fundamentally the worst team. But then Scottie Barnes can come back and who knows?

[Van Lathan]

And they're competitive on a lot of nights.

[Bill Simmons]

They're too competitive.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

They can rebound, they can shoot threes. The other thing is, we didn't talk about the threes. Like, this is the first season. The threes are 40% of the shots that everyone takes.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

That's just the variance that comes from that. You just never know.

[Big Wos]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

You know, yeah, the threes is always. It's been a sort of, you know, less talented team. You want to up your variance factor with the threes. Everybody's kind of known this for like seven, eight years now, but, like.

[Bill Simmons]

But now everyone's doing it.

[Van Lathan]

That's the discipline with which coaches are actually able to enforce it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Is different now. It's just better infrastructure to make sure, like. Cause it's one thing to say, like, we're gonna play with pace. We're gonna. You know what I mean? We're gonna shoot the three point shot. We're gonna encourage as many threes as we can. But to like actually coach it and get your guys to be doing a consistency to go against their instinct to dribble, dribble, shoot along too, is different.

[Bill Simmons]

You were going to mention the Knicks.

[Van Lathan]

What about him?

[Bill Simmons]

I missed last year's Knicks. I miss Hartenstein. I missed Dante. Yeah, they were just more fun to watch last year and I know they'll figure it out. Yeah, the Towns has been incredible. Brunson's not been as good. They're five at the end of games, which it seems like it's a little better offensively, but it's definitely worse defensively. And that's when the rim protection isn't there in the same way. And there's a bunch of. Now that we have a sample size, some of the advanced stats are like, huh, this isn't really the profile of a tips team.

[Van Lathan]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

So what are you seeing?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, I mean, yeah, the Carl Towns rim protection. We knew that was going to be a problem coming into the season and we just talked about this on group chat with Rob and Justin. Mikhail Bridges is getting smoked on defense. He's just not been a deterrent at all. And again, OG Anunnobi, you can't mention.

[Bill Simmons]

This to the Knicks fans. Well, listen, I mentioned last week, I was like, what was the point of trading five first for this guy if he's going to shoot 13 times a game? But the other side has been interesting too.

[Van Lathan]

I think the scoring is going to come. I think he's going to learn what spots to pick, when to attack, when to just let his fire.

[Bill Simmons]

Did he think they give him the ball more and just run through more stuff? I guess the Towns Brunson pick and roll is so good that they can't.

[Van Lathan]

Afford to because their defense is so bad. Like if you're getting cooked, you kind of have to look at your best player and say, yo, we need points right now. If they were stopping people then they would be a lot more patient about who gets to do what on offense. But when, like you're constantly having to put out fires cause you just gave up, you know, 10 points in a row. Like at a certain point it is, you gotta give it to Brunson. What I'm encouraged by is that the Towns and Brunson pick and roll is clearly difficult to deal with.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a nightmare.

[Van Lathan]

They're putting defenses in a bind. Cause Brunson, unlike a lot of these star point guards, can be the center on the switch. Like Halliburton's been having trouble with it this year. Brunson, as soon as you put a big man on him, he's killing that guy. And if you, God forbid, you drop on freaking Carl Towns, like that's a nightmare. And so I like that that's already started to figure itself out.

[Bill Simmons]

Wait, can we say one thing about Towns?

[Van Lathan]

Sure.

[Bill Simmons]

He's been kind of a winner of the season because he's been, I think, better offensively than anybody could have ever expected. On the Knicks. And then Minnesota feels worse.

[Van Lathan]

Minnesota's definitely worse.

[Bill Simmons]

Ooh, we miss Towns. Like, I feel like this has been a win all the way around for Towns. And then instead of the Knicks fans being mad at Towns for whatever, they can just now be mad at Bridges.

[Van Lathan]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

So he wins in every way.

[Van Lathan]

Look, I think the Bridges thing is everybody's in a patient wait and see moment. It's been 11 games. I'm not crazy worried about it.

[Bill Simmons]

I do wonder if you stop playing defense for like you're just on bad teams for two years. Like I wonder if it almost. You have to get back in the hang of what it's like to be on a really good team play.

[Van Lathan]

It's not just that though. It's like when guys start conceiving themselves as 20 point per game scorers and all of a sudden it's like, no, you're back to being that role guy that you were in Phoenix and it's like, no, I was a ball in Brooklyn. I was like, can I show you.

[Bill Simmons]

A YouTube clip of my game winners?

[Van Lathan]

No, he gotta get back to what he was doing in Phoenix for sure.

[Bill Simmons]

If you truth serum them. I wonder what they would say about the whole Giannis piece of this.

[Van Lathan]

I know you saw the, and I know you saw the graphic last night where they like showed all of the pics that the Knicks sent out to bring Richardson.

[Bill Simmons]

A couple of them. Like good picks.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, decent.

[Bill Simmons]

Like we didn't know that. Whatever that Bucks pick, which is so complicated, where New Orleans gets it if it's one through four now Brooklyn gets it if it's everything else. But I don't. I think The Bucs are a.500 or worse team. If anything happens to Giannis for a month, that team's going to be a bottom five team in the league. They're pulling these games out of their assholes.

[Van Lathan]

Well, it's like they've won three games.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, but the one yesterday, yeah, that was a miracle. Guy gets fouled with a second left. He just has to go one or two and the game's over and he bricks both of. And then Giannis wins an ot. Yeah, I just. I like that they look the next thing. If we're going to be rational about it. The town's thing has been a huge win. All the other stuff is explainable. Robinson is going to come back. There's probably some sort of buyout guy they can get in February to replace some of the Defrance out because it feels like there's a lot on McBride and then the Brunson. I know he hasn't been quite as good and efficient as last year, but I also feel like it's. Teams have been watching this now for a couple years. It's like Jalen hurts on the Eagles where it's like, oh, I know what this is.

[Van Lathan]

You gotta play a new weight. Like this is a completely reconstructed offense like that. He hasn't been completely comfortable yet. I don't think it's the biggest deal. I just think it's scary that like missing Mitchell, Robinson and precious Achua. Is this damaging to your team? Like, that's a bad sign so far. But again, I think it's pretty early and right now they're 20th in defensive efficiency down to 13.

[Bill Simmons]

But that's the bigger question to me is, is this the right Tibbs team? Is this a Tibbs team the way it's currently constructed? Or is this a. Maybe somebody else with the car keys.

[Van Lathan]

Would be more fun. I mean, if Tibbs is worth what he thinks he is, then he needs. He needs to also adjust. Players have to adjust. Coaches should adjust.

[Bill Simmons]

Can I do a PSA for the other 29 teams? When the Knicks have the ball with like 3 seconds or less and they need to score, they're going to throw it to Jalen Brunson in the corner, he's going to pretend to go left and then he's going to do a follow a jump shot. I'm just telling you that's what's going to happen. You can pretend to bite on the going left, but then dive forward when he's doing the turnaround.

[Van Lathan]

That's his move.

[Bill Simmons]

It works every time. I don't. Do these guys have tape?

[Van Lathan]

It's tough in the moment, Bill.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like Tatum. Here's what Tatum's going to do. He's going to dribble through his leg seven times and then when there's two seconds left, he's going to do a step back, 26 footer. We know all these moves. LeBron. He has this Specific spot on the court. He's going to shoot a three from there. He's going to make you think he's going to the basket, hop back from.

[Van Lathan]

Step back.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, there's some guys that you just. You know what they're going to do. And then there's other guys like Durant, where I'm like, I have no idea what he's going to do. He's going to go right, he's going to pull up. Is he going to do the turnaround move?

[Van Lathan]

Brunson's. Yeah, he's going to try to create space with a little shoulder face.

[Bill Simmons]

He's got to be so hard to guard because I think they know what he's doing and he's still get.

[Van Lathan]

He's.

[Bill Simmons]

He does that.

[Van Lathan]

He's got a little Luca in him in terms of the stop and start. Like, he's not the fastest, but he can get accelerated faster than everybody else and decelerate faster than everybody else. Yeah, it's not. It's not easy from the couch, Bill. That's what they would tell. Tell you.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you know what's. I think the secret hardest move is the Luka two on one when he slows down and then almost makes it like a low post movement.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Where he's got momentum, but he stops and the guy's like, also playing the pass. And then Luka just like, I'm just gonna bounce off you.

[Van Lathan]

Against the warriors the other night, I.

[Bill Simmons]

Don'T even know what that move is, but I feel like he's perfected it.

[Van Lathan]

And I'm like, that's Draymond Green, one of the best defensive players of my life, and he can't even stop it. It is weird.

[Bill Simmons]

Are you scared of the Cavs?

[Van Lathan]

The Cavs, man, Listen, I know, like, every single smart NBA person you guys and included on the over unders had the Cavs over Kenny Atkinson winning coach of the year, and I was like, yeah, they're going to play better. They're going to be way healthier this year. But, like, I don't know, they kind of took off last year when their guys weren't playing. Yeah, but Kenny Atkinson has been smart about deploying the lineups, letting Mobley play center at times, being the lone big. He's gotten these guys to understand the importance of spacing, and they're like, niang. For instance, this guy is completely unconscious. Like, he shoots with the green light of a freaking Kevin Durant at certain points. And Donovan Mitchell, God bless him, he's getting off of the ball a Lot faster than he has at any other time in his career. That's always been my biggest criticism of him, is that he doesn't see the floor as well as a lot of the guys that I think are a little bit better than him. But this year, he's seeing it, they're believing it. I think there's something too everybody feeling like they have ownership of the offense, which Atkinson, you know, he spent some time in Golden State with Steve Kerr. We make fun of Steve Kerr a lot of times with his hippie dippy, like, the ball finds energy shit. But Atkinson has brought it hippie dippy. That's what it feels like to me. It feels like he's on a commune when he's saying some of that stuff. But, like, Atkinson has brought that ethos to Cleveland, and they've been way better for it.

[Bill Simmons]

And he brought Ty Jerome. Cause he knew Ty Jerome was good from, like two years ago.

[Van Lathan]

Revelation.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like when football. When the guy. Like when the guy, Dan Quinn went from Dallas to Washington, he took like a couple Dallas guys with them. He's like, I know this guy's pretty good. I'll grab this guy, too. I'm 100% in on the Cavs being real. I don't think there's any fluky shit at all. It totally makes from the first, second, third game. You could see it. And there. I talked about it before, but there's like a charitableness now with Mitchell and Garland. I don't think Mitchell cares if he doesn't have the ball in the last minute anymore. I felt like he did last year, and I think. I think Garland did a little bit, too. I just feel like they've sorted out something and then, you know, they can defend, they can switch, they have a bench. If, as Celtic fan, they're on my radar because I thought we would have the one seed unless somebody got hurt. Now it's like this team's. I think it's going to be tough to steal the one seed from them. You start out 14 0, 15 0. Like, just think about it logically for the rest of the way. You just have to go like 45 and, you know, 18 or whatever. It's not the same pace to get to 60.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And the Celts are gonna have trouble getting to 60.

[Van Lathan]

And if you look at the Eastern Conference standings right now, a lot of teams are gonna have trouble getting to 50. It's crazy how these things flip because, you know, there was all this smoke around Donovan Mitchell for years that he was not gonna he was not long for Cleveland.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

He ends up doing his extension. Shams puts out that report that Garland's representation might. Oh, yeah, I forgot about that. If Mitchell's still on the team. Cause he feels like he's not being optimized. They bring in Kenny Atkinson and shit, man, everything sort of flips. And everybody has this level of buy in. It's just so crazy how things can turn on a dime in.

[Bill Simmons]

Kenny calls him and he's like, I'm going to optimize your shit.

[Van Lathan]

And a.

[Bill Simmons]

Just, just bear with me, buddy.

[Van Lathan]

They've bought it and they look so much better for. And like I said before, it did feel like a your turn, my turn situation. It did with Mitchell and Garland, where I'm just like, man, these guys have complimentary games. They both can shoot, both can drive it. They should be elevating what each other do. And this year is the first time in that partnership that I actually feel like it's happening. And it's been exciting to watch.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm good at very few things. I can spot toupees. I can make meatballs.

[Van Lathan]

That's like me with bbls.

[Bill Simmons]

I can spot that. Your turn. My turn.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm just attuned. I've been watching basketball my whole life. You know it when you see it, you know when it's not perfect.

[Van Lathan]

Look at when Tatum and Brown got rid of that dynamic where they now elevate what each other do. Where back in the days we were like, oh, these guys are too duplicative. Like, we might have to move one, blah, blah, blah. Now these guys actually play off of each other.

[Bill Simmons]

I always believe that is a freaking lie. I always believed in my guys. No, I think you can tell the difference between your turn, my turn, competitive versus elevation. And now I feel like those guys elevate each other, which is a boring topic for a podcast or a YouTube video or an NBA content segment, but it's what's happening. That team's playing super unselfish. And then you watch a team like, you know, like Philly when Embiid comes back and how they have to navigate.

[Van Lathan]

It's gonna take some time.

[Bill Simmons]

How do you take care of Embiid? How do you. How does Paul George make sure he's involved up. Oh, wait, there's Maxey, too. Oh, there's Jared McCain who's having the. Might be the rookie of the year if he could just get playing minutes. How do you navigate all this stuff?

[Van Lathan]

He's got to beat out Eric Gordon.

[Bill Simmons]

And what happens, right? And what happens with Zombie Nick Nurse? Does he ever turn back into Toronto Nick Nurse? Or is he just Zombie Nick Nurse now?

[Van Lathan]

I mean, Nick Nurse did a great job last year. I think the Sixers definitely overperformed most of our expectations. Maybe the playoffs wasn't ideal.

[Bill Simmons]

Playoffs are pretty rough.

[Van Lathan]

They overperformed most of our expectations and I think. Which we can be bullish about.

[Bill Simmons]

Nice. You were in the Nick Nurse Kool Aid drinking kit.

[Van Lathan]

I'm just saying last year they were good.

[Bill Simmons]

Was it on my research?

[Van Lathan]

Last year they were good. The thing is, Embiid, I know a lot of people killed him for saying, I don't care about mvp. It's about the playoffs. It's about winning. I like that. For a team that's trying to incorporate Paul George, that has Maxey, who's ascendant. I like the idea that he's not gonna feel the onus to dominate every possession like he traditionally has for the team basically his entire career. And so that's a good sign. I think they're gonna be straight. You know what I mean? When Embiid isn't beating dudes up in the locker room for writing bad columns.

[Bill Simmons]

And you know, y Baseli and McCain are guys who could play in a playoff series. So, you know when they're operating on the fringes and trying to. You're picking out of the lottery, you're trying to grab, take flyers on dudes and usually it doesn't work out. And it seems like both of those guys I feel like could be in a top seven on a good team. So. But the Embiid is going to be the big thing. Let's take a break and then I got a couple more things for you. Van Lathan and said we're going to talk about the NBA cup because sometimes in basketball, 30 points could be worth more than 30 points. You get 30% profit boost on 30 plus point scores. With FanDuel's 30 on 30 like it the ringer. Team me up with America's number one sportsbook to give you a 30% profit boost when you pick a player to score more than 30 points during Friday's NBA cup action. I will give you the games and you tell me what you think. I'll give you a couple options. Brooklyn Knicks. Anybody loving that?

[Van Lathan]

One for 30.

[Bill Simmons]

The Cam Thomas action. No Clippers. Houston. James Harden going into terror. Twins. No, no.

[Big Wos]

They're going to lock up Phoenix.

[Bill Simmons]

Okc. Booker.

[Van Lathan]

Devin Booker.

[Big Wos]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, great. Booker's going to do it. We'll give it to Devin Booker. So whether you want to ride our picks or make mural, just look for 30 on 30 in the FanDuel Sportsbook app or head to FanDuel.com BS for your chance to score a bigger payout this Friday. You can even parlay it with Mike Tyson who we're going to talk about in a second. Don't miss your chance to find out how much 30 points could be worth. FanDuel 3930 must be 21 + President select states or 18 + President DC opt in required bonus issue does not withdrawable bonus or withdrawable profit boost tokens Restrictions apply including any token expiration and max wager amount. See [e-mail] game problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com this episode is brought to you by SimpliSafe. It is football season, which means the holidays are coming up and actually Simplisafe is already having a blast. Black Friday Sale. So if you're worried about the safety of your home and family, now is the time to get home security. I personally like to use Simplisafe because they can stop intruders before they break into your home. That's kind of the goal. I think. They take home security to the next level with their active guard outdoor protection. It's not an old school system. They only take action when somebody is already in your house. No, that's not Simplisafe. They take action before somebody gets in your house. There's no long term contracts, no cancellation fees. It's around $1 a day and it gives me peace of mind and helps me and my family feel protected. So take advantage of this Black Friday sale this week only. Right now you can take 60% off any new system with a select professional monitoring plan. Head to SimpliSafe.com BS to claim your discount and make sure your home is safe this season. Keep your home, your family and your peace of mind protected with SimpliSafe. Again go to simplisafe.com/bs that is SimpliSafe with two eyes. There's no safe like Simplisafe. This episode is brought to you by Peloton. Now I know what you're thinking. Peloton doesn't look that tough. Well, let me tell you, Peloton is way more challenging than most people think. Whether you're on the Peloton tread or diving into their All Access membership, they've got a wealth of running and strength training programs that will really push you to your limits. And these instructors, they're not Messing around. We're talking military trained sub three hour marathoners and former college athletes who know how to bring out your inner beast. And with tons of options to choose from, you can gear up for race day with seasoned marathoners leading the charge. Plus custom strength workouts to keep you accountable and crushing those goals. Peloton is all about the details too. Want to up your game as a runner? Well, they're pace targets. Let you tailor your workout so you can truly challenge yourself every step of the way. Find your push, find your power. With [e-mail] all right, we're back. Van Lathan has joined us.

[Big Wos]

What's up?

[Bill Simmons]

This is the fun of having an office. When people are in there, we're just like, fuck it, let's turn the mics on and go, you know how I feel about this. You've been preaching this forever.

[Big Wos]

Yeah, you know how I feel about this.

[Bill Simmons]

Bring people to the office and shit goes down.

[Big Wos]

I'm just, I'm saying everybody's about to get mad. I'm glad I'm not gonna slack cause it's gonna go crazy. But I think that first of all, look, it's a new time. Toxicity is back. So I feel okay saying that. I think everybody should have to come into the office at least 20 hours a week. Like that's three days or two days to take you 20 hours.

[Bill Simmons]

It's not enough.

[Big Wos]

20 hours, three days, however you wanna do it. You can still have your Thursday and Friday off. But I'm just not from the era where it was offensive to actual show up to work. Oh, I laugh at you. I don't care how it comes off.

[Van Lathan]

I laugh at you.

[Big Wos]

I'm not from the era where it was like one time back in my day, I was on a movie set. I actually brought a air mattress to the set.

[Van Lathan]

Oh my God.

[Big Wos]

Cause I wanted to be there work, then sleep there so I could be there early again. That's the toxicity I was brought up in.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, yeah. Honestly, I'm more in the middle of you and some of our gen zers who just like see like any stress related issue related to work as Van Love.

[Bill Simmons]

Van loves live bodies to just talk.

[Big Wos]

I just like to talk to people.

[Bill Simmons]

He just wants to hop in conversations.

[Big Wos]

Hey, how you doing by the way?

[Bill Simmons]

Were you just talking about Melrose Place? I have some buns here.

[Big Wos]

I come. By the way, Gen Z or turns out Gen Z turns out not as woke as we thought, so.

[Van Lathan]

Well, the dudes. So we can leave it.

[Big Wos]

We can stop Pretending now everybody come to work. It's a new day.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm bringing a text thread combo that Van and I were having to wow about the NBA, about the phenomenon of a league that is having its games watched less but feels like it matters more and what's going on and we all have theories on this. Is the NBA in better, worse or the same shape?

[Van Lathan]

I think it's a little bit worse than the peak of our recent peak of 2016 where Steph was like a global phenomenon and like him and LeBron playing that epic seven game finals. Like I don't think we're anywhere close to that level of health in terms of the league. But they do have the most famous players in American sports. Again, the teams don't like people don't watch games as much as they might even watch the.

[Bill Simmons]

So take Mahomes, Kelsey, Lamar and you would take 40 NBA guys.

[Van Lathan]

It's not like Lamar, who I love. That's my guy. He's.

[Bill Simmons]

He as famous as Jaylen Brown?

[Van Lathan]

I don't think Lamar.

[Big Wos]

No, no, no. He's not playing football and basketball famous. It's like a ridiculous losing game for the football players.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, they're just not, they're recognizable people. So like they can get people to pay attention to them, whether that be for who they're dating or what clothes they're wearing, whatever. They gotta find a way to monetize that attention. But I think once you're in a space where like you create celebrities, like even recently like a Ja Morant, that's a good place to be and they just gotta get more creative about getting people to love the game.

[Big Wos]

It's interesting talking about the celebrity because I would argue that Austin Reeves is more famous in LA than Justin Herbert is. Okay. But this is what I would say. Those players still exist in the league and they are the most famous guys, but they're less consequential in the league than they used to be.

[Bill Simmons]

Sure.

[Big Wos]

So they're not. It means something at the top of your league to have your most famous players also be your most important players. And I would argue that Steph, LeBron, KD, all of that older guard, they're not really serious. Although you could argue this year with how the warriors are playing serious threats for the NBA throne.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, don't tell the Laker fans that. So they're, they're seven and four. I mean JJ's got this team going.

[Big Wos]

Why, why do you do this?

[Bill Simmons]

We beat Scottie Pippen Jr last night.

[Big Wos]

You know, why, why, why do you do this we beat Huff. Bill, the vindictiveness towards.

[Bill Simmons]

No, it's the Laker fans.

[Big Wos]

Hold on, Bill.

[Van Lathan]

We gotta. And because we're on this, because I have to talk to you about this. Carl towns over LeBron in the top 100.

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't do that. I had LeBron. I had LeBron 15.

[Van Lathan]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I had Townes 25.

[Van Lathan]

Okay. I think towns over. Over LeBron.

[Bill Simmons]

No, I had Towns 25.

[Big Wos]

Don't you think you're too influential a voice to have this specific bias? Don't you think? Like you. Every single shot.

[Bill Simmons]

I just want to say the Lakers play Oklahoma City and some of the other good teams. They played Cleveland and lost by a hundred.

[Big Wos]

Nobody's.

[Bill Simmons]

The crowd was chanting for Bronny with six minutes left.

[Big Wos]

Nobody beating Cleveland right now, though. Nobody.

[Bill Simmons]

Can we go back to you? You're talking about those three guys. This is what I said to Van on the text thread. These unicorn situations they had with six guys. Bird, Magic, Michael Jordan and Kobe. Then LeBron, then Curry.

[Van Lathan]

Sure.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know if we can replicate that with any under 30American guy in that way. Even the Kobe thing. If Kobe goes to Charlotte instead of the Lakers, what happens to him?

[Big Wos]

The problem is that you're describing 40 years of the NBA basically. Like, when you're talking about those guys, you're basically going from 1979 all the way.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm talking about our last six guys that broke through in a real way.

[Big Wos]

I know, but think about the sample size of those guys. That means that every single generation, they've been able to find a guy or two like that. And if this is the first generation, why they can't? It's probably the scope of society and culture has changed and not the actual NBA. And so when you look at social media and the other things that, for example, you have Zion, you have Ja, right? Like, Ja is an incredibly likable player with a incredible fan friendly style. 30 years ago, him with the blick, blick, blick, blicky. Like posting it also. It's not a thing, right? He will post it on the Blicky. It's different. So maybe making stars is harder now because of the scrutiny.

[Van Lathan]

I think it's harder because of the stars and the culture around our stars themselves. Like I was asking somebody who's Now a huge F1 fan about the Netflix show. I was like, do they get into anything on that show? Cause I've never watched it. She was like, yeah. Like, they'll be like, that team is cheating. This owner's this, this person's an alcoholic. Blah, blah, blah. Like, they've made the characters compelling. As opposed to that damn NBA show on Netflix where Jayson Tatum is like, I love my mom, I love hoop and I love my son.

[Big Wos]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

These are the things we learned about Jayson Tatum, who's one of the 10, 8, 7 best players in the league. Like, they don't make themselves interesting. People don't.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, they're afraid to be interesting because it's.

[Van Lathan]

I think that's a problem.

[Bill Simmons]

It makes them less marketable.

[Big Wos]

I'll just bring up something and we're potting. Have to talk about it. If we talked about Kobe and what Kobe was able to become. If Twitter's around, when Kobe has a situation that he has in Colorado, he doesn't survive it. I mean, his legacy, I'm telling you, it's.

[Van Lathan]

I think he survives it in la.

[Big Wos]

He might survive it in la. But in terms of things like that as murky or whatever you want to say that they are, things like that used to happen to athletes. There used to be narratives about.

[Bill Simmons]

We talk about room for error, for lack of a better phrase, things used.

[Big Wos]

To happen and they just wouldn't stick.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Big Wos]

Like we are retroactively punishing Karl Malone. You know, things used to happen and they didn't stick. So making stars was the right. There was less margin for error. You could do it easier now. You got a gun, you got an adult star going at you for three weeks, harassing you on Twitter. All of that stuff, it sticks to you in a little way and it changes people's perception. And we have to ask if all of that's like, worth it. It can make you a star, but it can also take you off your perch.

[Van Lathan]

I wonder how much of that stuff actually sticks to people, like, off of the Internet. And I get it. More and more of our society are Internet based creatures. But I do wonder how often and how long that stuff sticks. Like, to me, what I'm talking about is like Draymond goes on his podcast and he's like, yo, Klay freaking ghosted. Steph. Steph was gonna say some nice words about him before the comeback game and after the lack of. Or the conversation that he had with Klay called PR and said, I'm not doing it anymore. Like, you telling me you put that in that Netflix show, that kind of stuff.

[Big Wos]

But do you think that people won't.

[Van Lathan]

Be interested in the story of the NBA?

[Big Wos]

I think they would, but that. But being interested in the story of the NBA is starting to Become. Because you don't have to watch the games to. And this is a Tommy Alton. I didn't want to watch that, though. Nah, you don't have to watch the games to be involved in that drama. You could follow that drama without watching. Without watching the NBA.

[Bill Simmons]

This is what Derrick Thompson, he came on my pod, I don't know how many months ago, and he was talking about how he's this new breed of NBA fan that loves the NBA but doesn't watch it that much, but loves everything around it and loves following it. My son's like that, too.

[Big Wos]

Oh, my God.

[Bill Simmons]

My son's not. My son wasn't watching. My son wasn't watching, you know, Bucks, Pistons last night, but he knows what happened with Giannis. That Giannis had 59 points. And, you know, when I was a kid, I felt like anytime the NBA was on, I was like, oh, my God, the NBA's on the USA Network on Monday night. I'm watching. I can see the Bullets. I never get to see the bullets. Or, like, SportsCenter in the 90s. You'd watch. You'd come home. Come home from drinking.

[Van Lathan]

Felt special.

[Bill Simmons]

1:30 in the morning, it's like, oh, Craig Kilbourne and Rich Eisen, they're gonna tell me what happened in the NBA. I have no idea what happened. Oh, Karl malone had a 30 and 25. Oh, my God. And it just felt. Now it's so available. And not just the games, but, like, the players. I do wonder if that's a piece of it, too. Like, all these guys have podcasts. There's no mystery with any of them. And then if you feel like you have mystery, you have something like the Netflix show where it's like, I'm not buying this version of you. I know there's more.

[Van Lathan]

It's crap.

[Bill Simmons]

You know what I mean?

[Big Wos]

Is there anything just to ask, is there anything about specifically the quality of the play that lends itself to any of this?

[Bill Simmons]

I've heard this. I think basketball is better now. I really do. I've been there the whole ride. I'm, like, amazed by the skills. I watched.

[Van Lathan]

I watched the warriors and Mavs.

[Bill Simmons]

That game was awesome.

[Van Lathan]

130. And at no point was I like, this isn't interesting, competitive, compelling. Like, I don't know. I think people could fall in love with it how it is. I think the TV product is a problem. And I know this is, like, not a populist thing to say. I think they should ban league pass or just, like, make it as extremely expensive. As possible. Like cost per hit or just you.

[Bill Simmons]

Only get to pay for three teams.

[Van Lathan]

You don't get all 30 or something like that.

[Big Wos]

I'm not understanding.

[Van Lathan]

Make the product less expensive, make it more smart, make it more scarce. You know what I mean? Cause I think there's gotta be a way to make this thing feel less accessible. There's a game every single night. And, like, what do you really miss? If you missed the Heat game last night, what did you miss?

[Bill Simmons]

You didn't miss anything. Yeah, but the schedule is too long. Too is the other piece. And they're never gonna change that.

[Big Wos]

But doesn't if you do that with league pass. I've actually never heard that. It's really interesting. But if you do that with league pass, doesn't that put the game back in sort of a regional space? Because right now if, like, Charlotte will never. I want to watch Lamelo.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Big Wos]

And Charlotte's never going to be on national if I don't have league pass. And then that makes the game more.

[Bill Simmons]

Regional, you know, Lamelo's a Van type of player.

[Big Wos]

Oh, yeah, for sure.

[Bill Simmons]

He puts up huge stats, fun highlights, and then the wins and losses don't matter. That's Van's wheelhouse.

[Big Wos]

Bill full of shit. I like to watch players that are fun to watch.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Fun to watch. Over winning is. Van's watching.

[Van Lathan]

This is the Westbrook thing.

[Big Wos]

This is.

[Bill Simmons]

He loves Westbrook.

[Big Wos]

No, I don't. But this is. This is what I said. Bill wants to thrust this onto me.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Big Wos]

Pause. But because of his Jokic thing, he's.

[Bill Simmons]

Still holding on to his Jokic thing.

[Big Wos]

What else? What other winning player don't I like?

[Bill Simmons]

I'm just saying.

[Big Wos]

Give me an example.

[Bill Simmons]

Winning player. I'm brand that you love watching Lamelo.

[Big Wos]

I love watching Lamelo. It's fun to watch. And he's unpredictable.

[Bill Simmons]

Career winning percentage 440.

[Van Lathan]

He's unpredictable. And he's playing better this year.

[Bill Simmons]

No, he is playing better. So what I'm saying is shout out to Lamelo.

[Big Wos]

You get into.

[Bill Simmons]

He's playing better. I enjoyed watching him.

[Big Wos]

We get into a situation where the regionality of it and the sport starts to feel like baseball a little bit.

[Van Lathan]

Sure, but.

[Big Wos]

So I don't know. I think that's an interesting idea and.

[Bill Simmons]

I've heard it before, but we didn't talk about. One of the things we were talking about in the text thread is if your best players in your league are all foreign, that's a problem. What is the history of people connecting with foreign players in America. Because, like, I loved Hakeem. Hakeem was amazing to see in person. He was fucking awesome. He was a badass. Like, he would. There's videos you'll see on Twitter. Just be like, hakeem punches a guy. Like, he was, like, a badass. There's multiple videos of him just, like, turning around, just popping.

[Van Lathan]

He was the Draymond of his day.

[Bill Simmons]

He was, like, amazing to watch. He was an amazing defensive player. He was the best low post player of his generation. And people are like, ah, Hakeem's boring. It's like, I don't. Giannis, Luka embiid.

[Van Lathan]

I think Giannis's wemby now has been mismanaged by the league, by Nike.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, oh, what's this case?

[Van Lathan]

This is, I just think, like, this whole, like, oh, the poor, humble immigrant who was selling, you know, yogurts and grease for a dollar. Like, I just think that was just mismanaged. They should have leaned into, like, the insane competitor, freakish athlete, whatever guy. Like, the way he's been packaged to America as this, like, cutesy immigrant story, I think was done a disservice to, like, his actual star pill. And Giannis is somebody who's actually embracing Americana in a way that Jokic and Luka just don't. They're just not interested in being American celebrities. They're just like, yo, I want to hoop, win, go home, be a great teammate, move on with my life. But Giannis is interested in being a cultural figure, and I think that could have worked. I just think that they did it poorly.

[Bill Simmons]

I think Giannis is pretty compelling, but.

[Van Lathan]

I think the freaking foreign stuff does hurt the league. If Luka was from Indiana, bro, he would be.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, this is interesting.

[Big Wos]

Out of here. We've talked about this before.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm trying to think what would be the best out of here, town or city for Luka to be in if his name was like, Luke, Luke Doncher, either.

[Van Lathan]

Oregon, Oregon, Kentucky.

[Big Wos]

Oregon, Kentucky. All of those places.

[Van Lathan]

Kentucky would be where white Hoopers thrive.

[Bill Simmons]

We need be like, oh, did you see what Luke did last night?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, Seriously. And he would have been a phenomenon in the state of Kentucky. He would have went to uk. He would have been this.

[Bill Simmons]

Basically what I have with Drake May. North Carolina superstar Drake May. Yeah.

[Big Wos]

Or Cooper, Flag your new obsession. All these obsessions have something in common. So, look, this is the thing. This is a boxing problem. We're big boxing fans, so boxing has insanely good stars right now. I'm talking about good in their skill. Terrence Cross, Oleksandr Usyk, Tyson Fury, even though he lost to Usyk Inua. Like all of these different guys, right? People care for reasons that. Really, as fucked up as this is, they care for reasons other than how good you are. Like, stories make people care.

[Bill Simmons]

UFCs like this, too.

[Big Wos]

Skills make champions, stories make stars. And you have to be able to relate to a story. Now, some of these foreign guys, they have stories that are just as interesting as anyone. Really more interesting. I left War Torn, whatever. Like, if you ever. You ever like.

[Bill Simmons]

Jokic's story is really interesting, right?

[Big Wos]

Francis Ngannou, Jesus. Like, all of that stuff. The problem is, isn't accessible to audiences. Even in boxing, when guys. When they don't speak English or when they can't really get over to American audiences, sometimes you have problems making stars with them. The only difference there is that for somebody like a Canelo Alvarez, his country backs him to such a degree that you can still make a worldwide star. Yeah. What I wonder about the NBA. You gonna have to. You gonna have to have some dude from la. You're gonna have to have some guy from Ohio, Cooper Flagg, as much as we joke about it, Chet Holmgren. As much as we joke, those guys are important to the league 100%.

[Bill Simmons]

AJ could be the guy.

[Van Lathan]

100%.

[Bill Simmons]

If AJ lands on the right team, AJ Debansa, a year from now, he might be the guy. Cause I feel like it has to be a wing. This is. Wemby has two problems. Centers have never resonated with people. Like, we talked about that with the Nike contract. It's like, nobody has ever been like, oh, I got like, when I was a kid in this late 70s, we weren't like, oh, I gotta get Kareem Shoe. Or like, oh, I gotta get you in.

[Van Lathan]

Could you imagine? Yeah, yeah. Shaq was a huge shoe.

[Bill Simmons]

Shaq was Shaq from a shoe standpoint. And also, like, I was there for Shaq. Shaq was pretty polarizing for the 90s.

[Big Wos]

How do you mean?

[Bill Simmons]

He's just like. People were like, eh. Like, why are you making so many movies? Why aren't you in shape all the time? Why'd you leave Orlando after four years?

[Big Wos]

We're talking video game movie, right?

[Bill Simmons]

No, I get it. But people felt in the moment, and they weren't right. But people felt in the moment, like, why does he care about all this other stuff? Why isn't he just trying to win titles? And then he had the MVP season and it flipped.

[Van Lathan]

And I've said this before. I think another thing if we were doing the foreign players thing, right, we would be doing it like boxing with the xenophobic, nationalistic sort of spin that we do with every fight. Like, I do remember when Floyd came out to fight Oscar De La Hoya in the sombrero. Like, I'm not saying we should do that in the NBA. I'm not saying we should do that in the NBA.

[Big Wos]

But think about Floyd, though.

[Van Lathan]

But I'm saying.

[Big Wos]

But think about Floyd, though. Floyd just went total heel.

[Van Lathan]

Yes.

[Big Wos]

To like, total heel.

[Van Lathan]

And today's NBA players aren't.

[Bill Simmons]

So do we need heels in the NBA? Maybe that's the biggest.

[Big Wos]

Do we really need heels in the NBA?

[Bill Simmons]

That's Jimmy Butler. It's sitting there for him right now.

[Van Lathan]

But he's not that good.

[Bill Simmons]

Draymond tried to do it, and it just made people mad.

[Van Lathan]

He's a great heel. He is the best heel.

[Big Wos]

He's a good heel.

[Bill Simmons]

He's at this point now with the. Because I really like watching the warriors this year where he had his arm flailed and almost hit this guy. And it okc. Whatever the team the other day, it's like, no, no, Draymond, no. Don't ruin this. No, please.

[Van Lathan]

It's the best.

[Bill Simmons]

But do you think Wemby could be the biggest star in the league? As a 7 foot 5 French guy?

[Big Wos]

I've never seen a player that the NBA fans that I know, the die hard NBA fans, had more invested in him being good. Like, if you. There have been guys that have come into the league that it's like, hey, I like him. Hey, I don't like him. If you talk, Jacoby is fucking brave. Cause if you talk shit on WEMBY, you get 50 different people telling you that Wendy is basketball Jesus. Isn't nothing to it. I think if Wemby lives up to the hype, he's a global superstar. People just love Victor Wimby.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, they love him. I made the same mistake. Cause I don't know if you guys remember the Adrian Report where it was like, people are saying he's the best prospect of any sport ever. So I had this bid on the show where I was like, oh, he's the best prospect since Satchel Page and Ty Cobb. Like, I would come up with some old whatever every time and, like. Cause, you know, I was like, kind of, kind of a little bit doubting it at first. And my goodness, man. Like, the. Like, whatever. Twitter is just what it is. But in person, people be like, I heard you, what you said about Wemby. You're crazy, you're wrong.

[Big Wos]

Blah, blah, blah.

[Van Lathan]

Like, you're right about the Wemby investment. So, like, I do think he has major pot. I think Wemby's broken through, honestly, in terms of. Of culture. Like, even when Britney Spears got beat up by his bodyguards at summer league for trying to talk to him that one time was. No, I'm just saying.

[Big Wos]

You don't remember.

[Van Lathan]

Britney Spears wanted his guests.

[Big Wos]

I know, but you throwing so much gas on that. Britney Spears got beat up.

[Van Lathan]

That's how she represented it on the Internet. Anyway. I wasn't there. I didn't see it. But, yeah, I think Wemby's definitely up there.

[Bill Simmons]

One thing that he has, and I think Edwards has, too, and I've seen this happen over the years, is when we really want it to happen for somebody, because you really felt this. When Jordan retired and there was that whole. It was like we were auditioning the next star.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, God.

[Bill Simmons]

It was like, would you.

[Van Lathan]

Painful.

[Bill Simmons]

Would you like to have Grant Hill?

[Big Wos]

Maybe Kobe?

[Bill Simmons]

How about this T. Mac character? T. Mac.

[Big Wos]

Vince Carter.

[Bill Simmons]

Vince. And then Kobe. I feel like starting in the 2000 finals kind of grabbed it. And then Vince, all of a sudden, that one year when he went ahead to head against Iverson was like, oh, could he grab it? Iverson, it. Even though I think he had, like, his base, but I still feel like it would have been really hard in 2001 for him to become the guy.

[Big Wos]

But the thing with Iverson. Iverson is a good example.

[Bill Simmons]

He was like a belated after the fact, people appreciated him more.

[Big Wos]

Iverson is a good example of what we're talking about.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[Big Wos]

In a time when the NBA was looking for the next Jordan, Iverson was able to carve out his own superstar aurora by being completely antithetical to Michael Jordan.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, right.

[Big Wos]

He was able to be. And now what we have. I'm sorry, bro. These dudes ain't got no personality, bro.

[Van Lathan]

It's a 100%.

[Big Wos]

I mean, they are.

[Bill Simmons]

Edwards does.

[Big Wos]

Edwards has personality.

[Bill Simmons]

Edwards is. Edwards is our big hope.

[Big Wos]

He's great, but the older guys do. Steph has personality. LeBron has personality. The way we judge people and the conversations that we have around people and the way that we excoriate them for every little. The food getting a little bland. And if you want to be a superstar, you gotta be spicy. There's gotta be some spice to it.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. And I remember David Stern's dress code thing that everybody said was like, mega racist and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. And you know it was just the idea that, like, a lot of these guys from the streets or whatever we're called, inner city, whatever euphemism we wanna use, we're less polished, less media trained. Right? Our league is now way more suburban. These kids come from way more affluent backgrounds. They're way more media trained. Focus group consultant, freaking to death. And as Vance says, it's not as fun. It's just not. Like, I love Devin Booker. I love watching him hoop. He's famous enough to date Kendall freaking Jenner. Nobody knows anything about him. Nothing. Nobody knows a.

[Big Wos]

You can't.

[Van Lathan]

A lot of people don't even know what this guy's voice sounds like.

[Bill Simmons]

But then the flip side of everybody's like, hey, kd, can you stop being so out there? Can you get offline?

[Van Lathan]

Keep doing it.

[Big Wos]

I like that.

[Van Lathan]

Keep doing it.

[Bill Simmons]

I like it, too.

[Big Wos]

I think KD is interesting and I think the fact that he has embraced the fact. Yes, I like it. I like it.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he's one of the most authentic superstars we've had in any sport this century.

[Van Lathan]

100%.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, almost to his own detriment a lot of the time.

[Van Lathan]

Like, could you imagine Donovan Mitchell? He's another one of these guys who's, like, perfect. Like, great suburban upbringing, says the right thing. Beautifully eloquent when he speaks, like, he's so polished. Could you imagine him ever saying anything as interesting as KD does on a freaking daily basis? No, and I don't think that's a good thing.

[Big Wos]

Now, while we say this, once again, I wanna come back to the climate, right? Because part of this is because if you're James Harden and you like to go out to the strip club a little bit, that becomes your whole identity. You know what I mean? So what I'm saying, he's earned that identity.

[Van Lathan]

He's earned it.

[Big Wos]

Once again, I like him. Once again, I like him. But all I'm saying is, look, the NBA is not boring. It's so much fun to watch. All these storylines are so much fun, but loosen up a little bit. Have fun, play basketball. But everyone, not just the players, the fans, too. I don't need 12 saints that never did anything wrong or never said anything wrong playing basketball. Your favorite players from back in the day. I'm sorry, These guys were intensely flawed.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Big Wos]

The Goat is a legendary asshole.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Big Wos]

One of the other guys is a legendary whore. And one of the other guys, if you said the wrong thing to him, he'll throw your ass through a plate glass window. So these are people that play basketball, the people part makes it a superstar. And so I think that turning them into robots only makes the league a little bit more.

[Bill Simmons]

Larry Bird bar fight during the 1985 playoffs. Hurt his hand.

[Big Wos]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Shooting went south. One of the reasons we lost the title, I was like, what if that happened now?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

That was like, oh, yeah. Anthony Edwards got in a bar fight, and now Minnesota's out of the bar.

[Van Lathan]

What I would say, too, is like, Adam, God bless him for all of his shortcomings, in my opinion.

[Bill Simmons]

I can't wait for this to.

[Van Lathan]

He went out and got these guys. The bag is 10 games.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, I thought you were going another direction.

[Van Lathan]

No, he went out and did that. And you did a great job. Bravo, Adam. Now your next freaking job is to get people to care more about what's happening on the floor in your freaking league. And I get it. He was putting on his NBA cup courts. No, it's not.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, there's a green one.

[Van Lathan]

I think Adam has amazing business sense. He's smart enough to get the Emory involved in naming rights. And, like, he is incredible at getting the corporate partners to buy into what they're doing now. He's gotta be better at the basketball part and getting people to care more.

[Bill Simmons]

The number one thing to me that tells me that that's not gonna happen is the schedule, which I've talked about a million times in this podcast. The fact that it's 82 games and not 70 or 72. Even like that. They don't care. They have too much of their product.

[Van Lathan]

They love the inventory.

[Bill Simmons]

They love the inventory. And it's too much. And it's way too much. And it's just night after night, there's eight games, nine games, 10 games, none of them. You never know what's special, what's not special.

[Big Wos]

It's been 82 forever. At what point did it become that you would have thought? What was the point to where you felt like they needed to scale back late 2000s. Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I also think I talked about this Tuesday. I think the sport's much harder to play, and it's a big reason why these guys are getting injured.

[Big Wos]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

I got religion too hard in 2014 when everybody was praising Popovich for not playing. They were playing the Heat, too. It was the spurs, and he sat like three of the starters.

[Big Wos]

Everybody ruined the Saturday game.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes.

[Van Lathan]

And everybody was like, the NBA media consensus was like, pop is such a genius, and blah, blah, blah. And I gotta give it to our guy Amin. He was like, it's cool when the spurs do it, but when everybody's doing it, yeah, it's not gonna be good. And our partners pay us for these games. This is how we make the bulk of our games.

[Bill Simmons]

But the thing is, they just paid them more money for the games. Yeah, like, they ponied up again.

[Van Lathan]

They got blessed with the media environment where these live rights are so impactful. But, like, that's when I got religion on it, when everybody was like, yo, Pop is a genius for this. And I'm just like, well, if teams need to load manage their stars, then that means we need less games. Like, that's just think how good the.

[Bill Simmons]

72 would be right now with like Philly's situation where it's like, Holy shit, they're 2 and 9 in the 72 game season. Like, this is. This is dangerous now. They can't fuck around. They, you know, they could be like, not with 82.

[Van Lathan]

They'll be fine. They'll fit. They'll finish in the top three of the East.

[Bill Simmons]

I have never. I've asked so many people, and there's some people in the league who've really pushed for it. Like, Steve Kerr is like a massive advocate for it, and he's like, written letters and all this stuff and there's no answer other than, nah, we don't wanna give up the money. That's it.

[Van Lathan]

And the thing is 100% money, mind you. These are the masters of the universe. This is what we're told. These are the smartest business people in the history of planet Earth. And, like, you get this massive increase in revenue with your new TV deal. You would think that it's like, all right, with this windfall, we can make the product better. It might, like, hurt us in the short run in terms of our inventory, but we're going to find a way to make these games feel more interesting, special and better, Monetize the decrease in inventory. But instead they're just like, no, we going to bash them over the head with 82 from now till eternity.

[Big Wos]

Well, I mean, they're probably. I mean, the conversation now around the league in terms of the quality of the games. The viewership might spawn something, but there's been no reason to, right? The league has been incredibly popular. The NBA was like, The NBA helped normalize the American society in the bubble after, like, they should have won some kind of social award. This is dumb. I've said this to you before, bruh. I literally was driving around LA like a zombie during the pandemic. And then I heard on the radio, people were Like, I've heard that there are rumblings of the NBA getting everybody back together in one city and playing all the games. And I was hope.

[Van Lathan]

Hope brings this.

[Big Wos]

I was like, oh my God, if I could just watch some NBA basketball.

[Bill Simmons]

You know what's crazy about that? I was thinking about that the other day. Cause it feels like it happened 130 years ago. And it was four years.

[Big Wos]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Wow.

[Bill Simmons]

We were putting cardboard cutouts of fans in the stands. Not only did we not have fans in the stands, we were pretending to have fans in the stands.

[Big Wos]

Virtual fans.

[Bill Simmons]

Like that Stallone cobra thing behind Van's shoulder there. And it was like totally normal. That's how desperate we were for basketball. Let's take a break. We got to talk Mike Tyson. This episode is brought to you by IMS Pet Food. We're all picky when it comes to our pets and their meals. When you choose iams dry dog or cat food, you can see a difference in your pet with your own eyes. Healthy energy in five days. Healthy digestion in 10 days. Healthy skin and coat in just 25 days. Satisfaction for you and them guaranteed or your money back. Feed imes dry dog or cat food and see a visible difference. Visit imes.com that is iams.com difference to learn more. This episode is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Seeing a band or your favorite sports team in person is great, but it could be even better with the Chase Sapphire reserve card. It can help turn every moment into an unforgettable experience. With early access tickets to concerts and sporting events and access to some of the best seats in the house. You'll also earn three times the points on travel and dining purchases. Find your next experience with Chase Sapphire Reserve. Learn [e-mail] Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank NA member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply. This episode is brought to you by Empower. You got money Questions like can I retire early? What are my best savings options? Can I afford to pay for my kids education? Luckily, Empower has all the answers. With Empower's real time dashboard and real live conversations, you get clarity on your real life financial goals. So join 18 million Americans and empower. What's next? Next start today at empower.com tap the banner or visit this episode's page to learn more. Sponsored by Empower. Not an endorsement or a statement of satisfaction by a client. All right, Mike Tyson against one of the Paul brothers. Which Paul brother is it? Jake.

[Big Wos]

All right, Jake.

[Van Lathan]

Paul about to say Logan.

[Big Wos]

It's Jake. All right. Bill.

[Bill Simmons]

Where are we? All right. Billy. Man. Jake.

[Big Wos]

Take everything personally. Jake. You gonna find out I'm old.

[Bill Simmons]

Don't take anything personally. Jake. Paul, was. Are you old enough to remember early Tyson or just the clips of early Tyson?

[Van Lathan]

Tyson. No, Tyson out. My first real memories of Mike outside of, like, OVHS was when he came out of the first prison stint, like the Bruno and all of those. He was there.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you remember of early Tyson?

[Big Wos]

I remember the way things used to go back in the olden days was Whispers. Realities star. That's how it was with Shaq. My uncle wrote a letter from prison to my dad, and it was like, yo, have you heard about this boy from LSU? 7 foot 1, 290 pounds. Have you seen him? Shaquille O'Neal. Whispers. Boom. And with Tyson, it was this unbelievable wrecking machine. Then you see him on HBO Reality and then stardom. And so. So from. I guess he came out. At no point in my young life do I not remember Mike Tyson not being the baddest motherfucker around. And when you watched him, it was obvious you were watching something different.

[Bill Simmons]

That's my memory as well. Well, although I was older, but it was Sports Illustrated cover. HBO Fights. This is must watch. Yeah. Saw literally every Tyson fight. Everyone cared the most about his fights versus really anything else in sports except maybe like, the Super Bowl.

[Van Lathan]

That's crazy.

[Bill Simmons]

And I don't know. The audience doesn't match up with that. But just.

[Big Wos]

No, no, they do. No, it was a huge thing. It was boxing. Cause remember now, boxing is in an interesting place at this point. Muhammad Ali is gone in 1980, but really he's gone.

[Bill Simmons]

And nobody likes Larry Holmes before then.

[Big Wos]

Larry Holmes comes in at the lower weights. Sugar Ray Leonard is your favorite.

[Bill Simmons]

The middleweights and the welterweights took over half the decade.

[Big Wos]

And then there's an unstoppable heavyweight bust off. And that becomes must see television.

[Bill Simmons]

But it wasn't just the buzzsaw. It was the way he talked. It was how weird he was. He was just the most compelling person.

[Big Wos]

He was.

[Bill Simmons]

His interviews after the fight, he would just use crazy words and had, like, this weird empathy for somebody who he just sent their nose through their forehead.

[Big Wos]

I'm just. I'm telling you, that was the biggest part of it. The biggest part of it was you never knew which Mike you were gonna get.

[Bill Simmons]

Right? No, I don't think he knew either.

[Big Wos]

Right. And so. And then Mike becomes ubiquitous.

[Van Lathan]

He's got the punch out video game.

[Big Wos]

Punch out video game.

[Van Lathan]

I remember that.

[Bill Simmons]

Well. The big Pay per view is what pushed it over the top. He knocked him out in 91 seconds. And everybody was like, that was one of the early, hey, whose house are we going to? Which is now a staple of how we watch sports. Back then it was like, who's getting the fight? Are we all chipping in? What are we doing for food? And then my mom, I don't even think had brought down the nachos yet. I had 12 people in the basement.

[Big Wos]

It was over.

[Bill Simmons]

And we were all like, yeah, the fight's over, but the food's still coming, right? It was just done.

[Big Wos]

That was the only thing.

[Bill Simmons]

Spinks was terrified.

[Big Wos]

I remember that fight specifically.

[Bill Simmons]

Remember the deer in the headlights? Look at Spinks.

[Big Wos]

We had everybody over, he and my uncle. Rest in peace. My uncle Ray. My uncle Ray is like, spinks gonna make it a fight. Spinks gonna make it a fight. He from a boxing family. The whole nine, whatever.

[Bill Simmons]

He's gonna box him.

[Big Wos]

He's gonna box him. He's gonna move. Might hit. Spink speaks, goes down to one knee. And my daddy, like, uh huh.

[Bill Simmons]

And then hit him with the second. The punch that ended it was one of the single hardest punches in the history of boxing.

[Big Wos]

It's gone, it's over.

[Bill Simmons]

He's moving forward. Like, it's like in Roadhouse just to like, clear him out.

[Big Wos]

And we didn't really. That was the bit. We didn't have very much else to do.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[Big Wos]

Like, we all had to just sit around and talk about how raw Mike Tyson was.

[Bill Simmons]

The thing with Mike was he was involved in four. I remember where I was when I watched it, Sporting events, which is like, I think he might have the record for. Cause it was that Spinks fight. It was getting knocked out by Douglas. Yeah, Douglas, which is still Holyfield.

[Van Lathan]

The Ear.

[Bill Simmons]

Both Holyfield fights. The first fight was incredible that we had that at my house. We had that party. Still thought he was gonna beat Holyfield.

[Van Lathan]

I like that symbol.

[Bill Simmons]

And then the ear was also insane.

[Van Lathan]

It's like when he came out of prison and he had that sort of exhibition tour where he fought the big doofy white dude, Peter McNeely. Yeah, Bruno. In the big Massachusetts moment.

[Bill Simmons]

Peter McNeely.

[Van Lathan]

And like, you know, it was like this warmup to, like, the real big fights against Holyfield and Lennox Lewis. And like, I would say, even back then, the aura still existed. And everybody around me assumed he was gonna kill these guys. Yeah, like, everybody thought, no, it's Mike. Like, he had the fluke. He went to prison. He's back he's down with the Muslims.

[Bill Simmons]

Holyfield was a cruiserweight who had moved up to heavyweight. He'd lost to more by that time.

[Big Wos]

It was more mythology. Yeah, we had, we had. And they knew it because they were picking opponents very strategically for Mike. Mike beat Brucelnik for a championship. Maybe Buster Ma. Oh no, he beat Bruno for a championship. They actually paid like $4 million of step aside money to Lennox Lewis at one point so they didn't have to fight him. So at that point it was a little bit more.

[Van Lathan]

It was smoke and mirrors.

[Big Wos]

It was more mythology.

[Bill Simmons]

The fights were awesome though. They weren't a Galata fight.

[Big Wos]

Right at the mic that we knew was gone even before the Buster Douglas.

[Bill Simmons]

The way he would move side to side and the combos like that guy.

[Big Wos]

That guy died in jail. Atlas and all of those other guys like leaving, but he still had it.

[Bill Simmons]

You know what's another amazing thing about his arc was living it in real time. Watching somebody like fly too close to the sun. And as even the mistakes aren't even done yet. And you just kind of knew her. Once he started dating Robin Givens, it was like, this isn't gonna go well for anybody.

[Big Wos]

Something that was always resonated with people about Mike was the real fight of Mike Tyson's life was never gonna be in the ring. Because when you started learning about where he came from and what he went through, you always were wondering. It still feels like Mike Tyson won because he won the biggest championship he could have won. You were waiting. Mike Tyson has experienced intense tragedy in his life. You were waiting for the moment that it was over and he ended up like in a really bad, life altering, life changing situation. And he went through some of those. But him fighting was. It was a happy ending to a degree. Whenever you saw him in the boxing ring, because everybody sold you on just how much he had gone through. You mention certain things, Mike flies into a rage. You mention other things, Mike breaks down and cries. And so of all the things that he's been through and they are not woke, they are things that he's been through. They are not.

[Van Lathan]

He's a case study. Cause there's an extension of grace that Mike has afforded even after the sexual assault charges and convictions that like people just have decided collectively that we're gonna extend my. Some level of grace. And I think it is some of that vulnerability that you're mentioning right now. Cause like there's other people who would have gone through what he's gone through and would have been completely written off by Every single segment of society except some of the worst elements. But, like, Mike has managed to fight his way through that and be embraced.

[Big Wos]

We. This is weird territory that we're treading into. But I'll say it like this.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, boy.

[Big Wos]

He is brutally human. Yeah, he's brutally human. Like, you watch him and you're like, this is supposed to be the strongest guy in the world, right? He knocks people out. He bowls people over their heads. But there's an interview where. With him and a guy from Canada where Mike's out there to do his play. And the guy brings up Mike's old case and he cannot control himself. And you get the feeling of, man, I've been through that. I put that behind me. I'm trying to move on and be better. And you're throwing this back in my face. This guy is mentioning something that Mike was convicted of. He is not wrong in saying, this is something from your past. But you still look at him like he's an asshole. You're like, yo, man, why are you bringing that up? You know what I'm saying? You still look at him like that because there's something compelling about the amount of truth that Mike Tyson has failed into, and it'll always be that way. He's one of the last ones that.

[Van Lathan]

We'Re just like, yeah, I wonder if anybody else could ever have the type of redemption arc. And, you know, some people might say it's undeserved. You know, some people might say, like, you know, maybe human beings deserve to make mistakes and live past it. But, yeah, I'm fascinated by that element of it where, like, everybody understands that, like, Mike has lived a traumatic life. Mike has mental health issues. Mike has done some really fucked up things. But yet Mike is, you know, still somebody people root for. I think it's amazing, honestly.

[Big Wos]

There's one more thing that might factor into it is that he's. I don't think people think this consciously. He's been punished. So he hasn't. He hasn't gotten away with anything per se. There's a lot of things that he probably got away with.

[Bill Simmons]

But he even said that. He said, I didn't do this, but there's some other stuff, so we're probably even, right?

[Big Wos]

So he went to jail. He lost a child. He lost all of his money. He lost his mentor. He lost his best friend. Life has taken a lot from him now. He's gotten a lot right, and he's been able to come back from all of. But you've seen part of it Is. And you don't wanna. You don't. I'm trying to pick my words very delicately because the thing that Mike Tyson went to jail for is something that we have to root out of our community, our society, and we have to make sure that we're serious about talking about stuff like that. But there's a part of it to where it feels like. It feels like he's got a chuck out of his ass taken out of it because of it. It feels like he's gone through some really terrible, immensely gut wrenching, horrible things. And look, if no one ever wants to watch or look at Mike Tyson, I get it. I get why you would feel that way. But like, even my mother, who is.

[Van Lathan]

People love Mike, man.

[Big Wos]

Yeah, Even my mother is just like, she still likes to see Mike Tyson.

[Bill Simmons]

Doing, you know what I think it is? Jalen and I interviewed him once when I was at Grantland. We did a pod with him and it was like, it was like a thrill. It was like really. It was so cool to just shoot the shit with him. And I might even said this to him on the pod, but I always felt like he was one of the most self aware athletes that I ever followed. He was somebody that you would have thought was a complete disaster, and he was. But he was also completely painfully aware of all his faults, all his mistakes, all the issues he had and could talk about it, which I don't. I can't even think of anybody. Iverson, I think, has a little bit of that too, where there's an interest, self introspection. That was always unusual about him. Even as it was like, I'm talking Robin Givens era all the way through. He always kind of knew. I remember writing a column about it once about. He kind of became the Tony Montana, say hello to the bad guy character because he kind of knew that was how society saw. Yeah, say hello to me. I'm the bad guy.

[Van Lathan]

It's like one.

[Bill Simmons]

That was who he became.

[Van Lathan]

These people think that I'm an animal.

[Bill Simmons]

But so I'm gonna act like one.

[Van Lathan]

So I'm gonna do it and I'm gonna sell this fight and I'm gonna intimidate this dude and I'm gonna, you know, talk about, I'm a fan, crazy shit.

[Big Wos]

But that one run, I wanna eat your kids.

[Bill Simmons]

His crazy run was the craziest.

[Big Wos]

Mike's crazy run is the craziest run we've seen by any athlete. By any athlete. The only person that comes close to was Kanye a couple years ago.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, but like, maybe Charlie Sheen, too.

[Big Wos]

That's. Those are. These are iconic credits.

[Bill Simmons]

So in my column, I created the Tyson zone, which was when somebody acts so consistently crazy that you'll just believe any story. And Charlie Sheen entered that. Yes, Kanye, definitely.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, my God.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, there's certain people where you're like, I'll believe any story.

[Big Wos]

Now Mike's crazy run. And then it was like, not just crazy, but it was like. Like odd. Funny. Like, my back is broken. Spinal, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Big Wos]

Like, it's, like, odd.

[Van Lathan]

Like, I guess I'm just gonna fade into Bolivian. That's my favorite.

[Bill Simmons]

That was the best one. Yeah, we went. The first year of Jimmy's show, we went to go. He was the guest host, and we went to. He had, like, this pigeon coop in Harlem, and I went with Uncle Frank. I was like, the writer. And we spent, I don't know how long on the rooftop just watching Mike. And he was, like, so sad and so, like, traumatized by, you know, his whole life. But he could also talk about it. And he really connected with Uncle Frank. And it was this. This really cool, like, five minute video we got out of it. But even that, I was like, why is he even letting us up here? It was like he wanted to win people over even though he knew he was the bad guy.

[Big Wos]

For everybody out listening right now, I want you guys to. You're going to. This is going to be hilarious. When you think about. Think about how jumpy Bill was on the roof of the pigeon.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, I loved it. It was amazing. It was such a cool experience.

[Big Wos]

Bill was like, pookie, nice to meet you.

[Bill Simmons]

No, the thing is, it was only him and, like, one other guy.

[Van Lathan]

Like, he didn't have the entourage anymore.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, all these boxers. You hit that point. He hit that in the Douglas fight. He had two people in his corner.

[Big Wos]

You think he wins tomorrow?

[Van Lathan]

Phil doesn't.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you think? I'm going to look at the odds while you talk about this.

[Big Wos]

I don't know what to think.

[Bill Simmons]

He's 58 years old, which is just like. W was asking, could he just, like, die if he got punched in the heart?

[Van Lathan]

Like, how I think he's going to be punching. I think he's going to be okay in terms of physically. I just. Yeah, I just find it hard to believe he's going to hit this guy enough times to win.

[Big Wos]

So from a boxing standpoint, people like to hate on Jake. They do. I've seen Jake in the gym. Like, in the gym.

[Bill Simmons]

He's not bad.

[Big Wos]

Out at Phil's boxing He's certainly not bad in terms of the guys that he fights.

[Bill Simmons]

This isn't Screech from Saved by the Bell.

[Big Wos]

Fuck no. This is a guy that actually has a right hand. Like a real right hand. Like, he can detonate you with a right hand.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Big Wos]

And he's a big, strong, athletic guy who's got a fair amount of ring experience now, right?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Big Wos]

So he's not somebody to be fucked over and played. Any version of Mike TYSON Pre age 50 will work. Jake Paul, but it's not pre age 50. Your stamina goes. Your punch resistance goes.

[Bill Simmons]

Jake's -205 on FanDuel.

[Big Wos]

So, Jake, I could. I don't know what's going to happen, to be honest with.

[Van Lathan]

That's the thing about Mike. You don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

But that's. People have been asking me, like, is this. Do you think people are going to watch this fight or people are going to care? And I'm like, people are 1,000. First of all, it's on Netflix, which is the single most important channel we have now. It's a Friday night. People are gonna get together, somebody's gonna get it. It's super easy to queue up Netflix at whoever's house or whatever bar.

[Van Lathan]

People are gonna care.

[Bill Simmons]

People are gonna care. I actually think people are gonna care way more than I think people realize.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Big Wos]

I'm watching it. Like, I thought it wasn't gonna happen. I thought after it got canceled the first time that they would never come back to it. The only thing that makes me think that you could see a Tyson victory is that Mike seems genuinely motivated.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Like, this young kid, he just parachutes into my life's work, my sport, and thinks that he could take me out. I understand why anybody would be motivated by that, but, yeah. The man is 60.

[Bill Simmons]

I just can't. The man is 16. I can't believe, like, I was watching Mike Tyson fight in the mid-80s, followed by some, like, erotic thriller on HBO. It was like the greatest night.

[Van Lathan]

Greatest night ever.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, my God.

[Big Wos]

Emmanuel Queen.

[Van Lathan]

The heart was pumping.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Oh, the hitchhiker's on. And now, 40 years later, Bill was.

[Van Lathan]

Watching Emmanuel in space.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I was like, oh, she's in space now.

[Big Wos]

See, see, everybody tries to act like it's only me. Waz knows what's up.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, my God.

[Big Wos]

What?

[Van Lathan]

On the weekend, I never went to.

[Big Wos]

Sleep before 2am what's your big boxing fan? Jake Paul. Real boxer.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he's an elite celebrity boxer.

[Van Lathan]

Yes. He's real enough.

[Big Wos]

He's the greatest celebrity Boxer of all time.

[Bill Simmons]

To me, it speaks to more the evolution of celebrity boxing, which was in the 90s and 2000s, where we would put like Screech against him.

[Big Wos]

I think we were ready to go.

[Van Lathan]

I think he'd be the top 100 of actual people in his weight class in terms of, you know, especially not in the world or even in America for that. For that sense. But like, to be that famous and to fight that credibly, I think is an actual.

[Bill Simmons]

It's impressive.

[Big Wos]

Can I tell you guys a quick story from the gym with Jake?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, story from the gym. Story from the gym sponsored by State Farm.

[Big Wos]

Sponsored by State Farm. Like philosophy boxing. Woodland Hills. Phil Polina shout out to him. There was a heavyweight in the gym. Jake used to come in the gym. Come in the gym with BJ and they. They would fight Jake's whole team. Jake roll. He got a whole team that comes in with him and they. They do their whole thing and they spar. Different guys, pros, normally they would spar people out of weight class stuff. So Jake at that time, he wasn't as big as he is now, 175, 180. The guys he would spar would be middle sometimes. Sometimes even. Well to that he would spar with. And they were bringing him along, but he was taking it serious. He was in there all the time. There was a heavyweight in there that was like, just hated Jake Paul. Just hated Jake Paul. Like, just did not want it. Like, I want to spar Jake. I want to spar Jake. I want to fucking fight Jake. I want to do all of this.

[Bill Simmons]

To start a Creed fight.

[Big Wos]

Hated Jake Paul. Hated Jake Paul. They got in the ring and he was like, this was a guy had been boxing for a long time. They got in the ring and they sparred. Jake fucked this guy up.

[Van Lathan]

Wow.

[Big Wos]

When I'm telling you, this is like. This is what I consider to be like a real. We haven't seen him since Jake fucked. I'm like, you guys, I know that Van has a reputation of embellishing stories. This is we. When I'm telling you hurt him bad.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Big Wos]

And I was like, oh. Cause I did not think that was going to go the way that it. This was a guy that was his same size, had been boxing for a long time. There's literally pictures of him with gloves on when he's like 13, 14 years old. Jake beat the shit out of him. And I'm like, he's gonna win some fights wise.

[Bill Simmons]

Are you familiar with buccoli?

[Van Lathan]

No. Who's that.

[Big Wos]

Oh, shit. This is Bill's guy.

[Bill Simmons]

He's your guy, too.

[Big Wos]

He is. But Bill is, like, obsessed with Mark McColley. He's a gigantic guy from the continent.

[Bill Simmons]

He's from.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, what's wrong?

[Bill Simmons]

He's Congolese.

[Big Wos]

Oh, the Congo.

[Van Lathan]

The continent. Continent.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, I'll just give you the one sentence. Cell Jones, job. Congale. Ernie shavers meets 1974 George foreman.

[Van Lathan]

Wow, that's p. So is this, like, more credible than the Deontay Wilder early clips?

[Big Wos]

Oh, no, no, no, no.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, there's nothing like. There's nothing like. This guy.

[Big Wos]

Deontay Wilder is. I don't want to take anything.

[Bill Simmons]

Nobody wants to fight this guy. Like, he can't. He literally cannot make a fight.

[Big Wos]

Yeah, I don't want to take anything from Wilder. Wilder is a bronze medal in the Olympics who became heavyweight champion with one of the most devastating right hands of all time. But, like, Martin Buccoli is like a. Like, there's a big young heavyweight. Jared Anderson.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Big Wos]

Great young fighter just got demolished.

[Bill Simmons]

The Saudis. The Saudis threw him a ton of money. They're like, will you fight Bacole? He's like, no. And they're like, here's a lot of money. And he's like, all right. And he got absolutely. Like, his career has been altered.

[Big Wos]

It was one of those. You ever seen? It's not quite.

[Bill Simmons]

It was like the Frazier. Foreman.

[Big Wos]

I was just about to say that's what the fight. I was gonna bring him up like, Frazier, Foreman, fall.

[Bill Simmons]

Frazier just keeps getting. Falling over.

[Big Wos]

Halfway into the fight, you're like, ooh. By halfway into the first round, you're like, ah. And Jared Anderson just doing. Give him credit.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, one of these guys.

[Big Wos]

He was landing shots.

[Van Lathan]

That's what he was doing the whole fight.

[Big Wos]

But it's not just that, like, Macaulay is skilled.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. No. But it's ultimately when somebody can just. And you just see the other guy moving backwards, and it's like he's getting hit by a tornado.

[Big Wos]

And then it became. And so now after that, he can't get a fight.

[Bill Simmons]

He's my number one. I just want to see him fight. I would watch him fight every two months. They just made jump on the bandwagon once.

[Big Wos]

I want it, but it wasn't with December.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's one of them. He's going to kill somebody.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, he's going to kill somebody.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, Mike Tyson. So we're all watching.

[Van Lathan]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

Kyle, you watch?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

All right.

[Big Wos]

Oh, news for everyone. Kyle and I going to frolic when is that?

[Bill Simmons]

Allegedly?

[Van Lathan]

I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

Sounds great. What day is that?

[Big Wos]

When did we say we're doing it?

[Bill Simmons]

I said the weekend. Saturday vibes are great, but will they.

[Big Wos]

Have the games on?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Three TV's not the best, though.

[Van Lathan]

You can go.

[Bill Simmons]

Now that LSU season's over. You can start going to bars on Saturday.

[Big Wos]

I'll just let y'all know. Y'all fuck with me with lsu. I'm not like a stable person when it comes to lsu.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes.

[Big Wos]

So, y'all. You know how everybody likes to get razzed about their team. I don't like that.

[Van Lathan]

Lsu.

[Big Wos]

Yeah. Yeah. But our season is kind of fucked. We still outside Hope, though. We run the table now.

[Bill Simmons]

You have Jaden Daniels. You just transfer all your love to Jaden Daniels for his Washington playoff and we got.

[Big Wos]

There's a whole nil battle happening right now. We're about to play probably 10 million for a quarterback.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't like this at all.

[Van Lathan]

I saw Cam Ward bought his entire offensive line diamond chain like he had like a platter out. And as he.

[Bill Simmons]

How is this going to end?

[Van Lathan]

Well, amazing season. Should have bought him for the defense.

[Bill Simmons]

You could give me, if we had this, a better podcast for another time, but if you told me what is College Sports in 10 years, I'm prepared for a hundred scenarios.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He literally tell me anything. You tell me it's like a 10 college league and everyone else is D3. And I believe that.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, this is a. It's a strange direction it's headed in, for sure.

[Bill Simmons]

I can't say it's great. W. It's great to see you.

[Van Lathan]

Same band.

[Bill Simmons]

Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Cochrane and Steve Ceruti for producing. As always, thanks to Van Lathan and Big Wise name Lambre. Stay tuned for part two. It's coming later tonight. I'll see you. There must be 21 + in President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + in President D.C. gambling problem. Call 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-887-897-777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling helpline ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text hopeny in New York.