Part 1: An NBA Six-Pack, UFC 308, and the Yankees Are Back With Ariel Helwani and JackO

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Bill Simmons Podcast – Part 1: An NBA Six-Pack, UFC 308, and the Yankees Are Back with Ariel Helwani and JackO

In Part 1 of this special two-part episode of The Bill Simmons Podcast, host Bill Simmons delves into a trifecta of major sports topics: the NBA season's early developments, the upcoming UFC 308 event, and the New York Yankees' unexpected resurgence to the World Series. Joining Bill are renowned MMA journalist Ariel Helwani and longtime friend JackO, who provides a passionate Yankees fan perspective.

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1. NBA Six-Pack: Early Season Observations

a. Orlando’s Dominance Over Miami Heat

Bill kicks off the discussion with his observation that the Orlando Magic have effectively overtaken the Miami Heat in Florida. Highlighting Orlando’s increased competitiveness and Paolo Banchero's standout performance, Bill notes, “Orlando answered all the things that I was hoping I would see from them” (26:45).

b. The Uncertain Future of Miami Heat and Jimmy Butler

Delving into Miami’s prospects, Bill expresses concern over Jimmy Butler’s future with the Heat: “Jimmy Butler might get traded soon” (27:10). He draws parallels to the late '80s Pistons, suggesting that Miami’s competitive window may close if significant changes aren’t made.

c. Houston Rockets’ Depth and Potential Trade Strategies

Bill critiques the Houston Rockets' roster depth, proposing the "too many guys" theory: “When too many guys think that they deserve between 30 and 40 minutes a game, you tend to have some sort of rocky” (28:00). He speculates on potential trades, including leveraging Dillon Brooks and Steven Adams to acquire Jimmy Butler.

d. Rookie of the Year Race: A Peculiar Contender Field

Assessing the Rookie of the Year race, Bill labels it as “the weirdest one we've had since 2017” (29:00). With Zach Edey leading but facing setbacks, Bill expresses favoritism towards Reese Rezende: “Reese O'Shea is the one I'm targeting here. Plus 650” (29:45).

e. Ben Simmons’ Trade Value and Future

The conversation shifts to Ben Simmons, where Bill debates his trade value and potential future moves. He muses, “Ben Simmons is actually an asset. He could handle the ball, his point guard size, he could get to the rim” (31:00), contemplating possible destinations like the Heat or Knicks.

f. Jayson Tatum’s MVP Trajectory

Bill presents a compelling case for Jayson Tatum's MVP candidacy, noting his improved shooting mechanics: “His MVP odds dropped 13 to 1 to 9 to 1” (34:00). He contextualizes Tatum’s age, comparing it to NBA legends who peaked at 27, suggesting Tatum is entering his prime.

g. Knicks and Timberwolves: Post-Trade Identity Shifts

Discussing recent trades involving the Knicks and Timberwolves, Bill examines the impact on team identities. He critiques the Knicks' reliance on Julius Randle and RJ Barrett, stating, “They need playmaking from Bridges” (30:30). Similarly, he expresses uncertainty about the Timberwolves’ adjustments post-trade.

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2. UFC 308: The Battle for the UFC’s Future with Ariel Helwani

Joining Bill is Ariel Helwani, who provides in-depth analysis of the upcoming UFC 308 event, focusing primarily on the highly anticipated fight between Ilya Topuria and Alex Pereira.

a. Ilya Topuria vs. Alex Pereira: The Fight for UFC’s Face

Ariel underscores the significance of this matchup, stating, “One of these two is going to become the face of the company” (33:00). He highlights Topuria’s youthful dominance and Pereira’s seasoned reputation, debating their potential to shape the UFC’s future.

b. Evaluating Fighter Personas and Marketability

The duo explores what makes a UFC fighter a marketable star. Bill praises Pereira’s presence: “His fight solves that last fight, which I think is the other piece you need if you're going to be truly great at UFC” (37:10). Ariel contrasts Pereira’s charisma with other fighters, noting the absence of detractors: “Even Georges St. Pierre… you can't say any of that about Alex Pereira” (38:19).

c. Other Notable Fights and Fighter Evaluations

Ariel evaluates additional fights on the card, including Magomed Ankalaev vs. Alexander Rakic and Sean O'Malley’s upcoming bout. He critiques the UFC’s matchmaking strategies, emphasizing the need for compelling, competitive fights over mere star power: “They are on fire right now as a brand… but eventually, it's going to become an issue” (46:24).

d. Predictions and Hot Takes on Key Fighters

Bill and Ariel share their predictions for the night’s outcomes. Ariel expresses confidence in Topuria’s longevity and marketability, while Bill remains a fervent supporter: “He’s my first favorite UFC fighter” (42:56).

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3. Yankees Are Back: A World Series Perspective with JackO

Bill transitions to a spirited conversation with JackO, a dedicated Yankees fan, discussing the team’s unexpected return to the World Series.

a. Evaluating the Yankees’ Performance and Management

JackO criticizes Yankees’ manager Aaron Boone’s strategic decisions, particularly in bullpen management: “He has been a postseason hero too, but that's going to save you some money” (84:15). Both agree that the bullpen's unexpected strength has been pivotal: “Luke Weaver kind of became the guy by default” (79:36).

b. Key Player Contributions: Judge, Stanton, and Soto

The duo debates the roles and performances of key players. Bill highlights Aaron Judge’s postseason struggles: “Judge... batting .203 in the playoffs” (86:05), while JackO praises Giancarlo Stanton's clutch hitting: “Stanton has been everything and more for them in the postseason” (84:15).

c. World Series Matchup: Yankees vs. Dodgers

Anticipating the World Series clash against the Los Angeles Dodgers, JackO reflects on the Yankees’ historical rivalry and recent dynamics: “Yankees, Dodgers, like I said, with the history and... there's a lot to like about this from a casual fan” (108:20). They discuss the challenges posed by the Dodgers’ pitching rotation and the Yankees’ reliance on bullpen depth.

d. Fan Reactions and Personal Anecdotes

JackO shares personal anecdotes about celebrating the Yankees' success with his family, emphasizing the emotional impact: “Watching my daughter join me in the celebration was a nice moment” (83:21). Bill and JackO also exchange playful jabs about their differing loyalties, reinforcing the camaraderie despite rivalry.

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4. Concluding Insights and Teasers for Part 2

As the episode wraps up, Bill teases the topics for Part 2, which will cover NBA league pass rankings, Million Dollar picks, and additional sports discussions. He encourages listeners to stay tuned for the continuation of these engaging conversations.

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Notable Quotes

• Bill Simmons: “Jimmy Butler might get traded soon.” (27:10)
• Ariel Helwani: “They have to figure out how to incorporate Bridges more, because I actually think he's a really, really advanced, like, playmaker.” (30:16)
• JackO: “I love that kid. I adore him.” (30:54)
• Bill Simmons: “Jayson Tatum's MVP odds dropped 13 to 1 to 9 to 1.” (34:00)
• Ariel Helwani: “It's almost like in golf, like Tiger would have those moments when all of a sudden his swing was a little messed up.” (39:41)
• JackO: “He has been the guy that carried him. And Judge, who I love, I yield to no one in my love of Aaron Judge.” (85:00)

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Conclusion

In this compelling first part of the podcast, Bill Simmons expertly navigates through the intricate landscapes of the NBA, UFC, and Major League Baseball, offering insightful analysis and fostering engaging discussions with his guests. Whether dissecting the early NBA season’s potential playoff runs, predicting the future face of the UFC, or passionately debating the Yankees’ World Series ambitions, this episode delivers a comprehensive and entertaining sports roundup for enthusiasts.

Stay tuned for Part 2, where Bill promises to delve deeper into NBA rankings and million-dollar sports picks, continuing the dialogue with even more expert insights and lively debate.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

Coming up, Part one of a special two part Mega BS Podcast next this episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by Ray Ban Meta Smart Glasses. Built with Meta AI Ray Ban Meta Smart Glasses react to what you see so you can learn more about the world around you. You can also take hands free photos, videos, send messages, make video calls, even play music and podcasts straight from your glasses with Ray Ban Meta. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. It's tip off time for NBA cup, so I hope you're all ready and stocked up on Michelob Ultra. Notice how I called it NBA cup and not the NBA Cup. Trying to get that going. We'll see how it goes. I really love how they're getting fans closer to all the action with Michelob Ultra Courtside. It has exclusive content and prizes like courtside seats, a trip to the Paris Global Game or to All Star Weekend and much more. Learn how you can get closer to the action. Visit michelobultra.com quartzide Michelob Ultra Superior Access Courtside 2425 Sweepstakes no purchase necessary. Open to US residents. 21/ begins on 10124 goes through 7125 Visit micheloblcher.com courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and official rules and void were prohibited. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network put up a new rewatchables on Monday we did Hereditary as part of Scary Month. Me, Sean, Fantasy, Chris Ryan. You can watch it on The Ringer Movies YouTube channel as well. And somehow there's a lot of laughs on this one. For one of the most horrifying movie the last 10 years, we were just chuckling it up. Can't explain it. Really fun podcast. You can also watch all the videos and clips from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. And you can listen to the McShay show, which we just added this week on the Ringer and on Spotify new podcast. I think there's going to be video for it too. But Todd McShay, who? You've heard him on Russello. He's great. College football, NFL draft, NFL, anything with a football, he's going to be talking about it. So please subscribe to the McShay Show. It's really good. He even has a 617 in his cell phone which I'm very jealous of. I wish I still had by 617. Coming up for part one of this podcast, I'm going to do an NBA six pack at the top six observations about the season through two games. Don't worry, I'm trying not to overreact. And then Ara helani, old friend, UFC 308 this weekend, had to bring him on, had to talk UFC because my son demanded it. And then last but not least, everyone was demanding Jacko because the Yankees in the World Series. So my old buddy Jacko, a BS podcast hall of Famer coming back on and talk Yankees, it hurts. I didn't want to do it, but I also love talking to Jacko. And we ended up going 40 minutes. So that is part one of the podcast. And part two, we're going to do NBA and Million Dollar picks and some other stuff that's coming later. This is part one. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, now it's time for a special part of today's episode brought to you by our friends at McLob Ultra, the official beer sponsor of the NBA. What an honor that is. The NBA season is here and Michlob Ultra courtside is getting fans closer to the game than ever before. Closer to the players, the stories, the celebrations. All you have to do is check out Michelob ultra.com courtside that's easy to learn how you can get closer to the action. So what we're going to do right now, I'm going to open up a six pack. We're going to unpack six major things going on in the world of basketball right now. It's also a sick pack. Cause somehow it's day four and I'm still sick. That's fine. I'm a grinder, I'm a gamer. I'm into 82 games. I'm not like Joel Embiid. I'm not sitting out opening week. So we're gonna do a little six pack right now. Just six things. I noticed I don't want to step on part two when we do the league pass rankings. So I'm trying to keep it a little separate. Of that six things I've noticed, number one, it feels like Orlando officially took over Florida from the Miami Heat last night. So what does that mean? Well, they had the swagger, they had the competitiveness. They have Paolo in year three who was clearly, undeniably the best player on the court. KCP was there. So defensively they just felt like they went up a level and they just absolutely throttled, throttled, throttled Miami. And it was kind of a special night for Miami. They were honoring Pat Riley. The halftime ceremony was like a half hour. Didn't matter. 35 year old Jimmy Butler three points in day one of his revenge season. I think I'm going to do really well in the futures that we did with Vercel and House. I'm already starting to worry about this Miami future, which we'll talk about in a second. But Orlando answered all the things that I was hoping I would see from them. You know we talked about in the over under pod to just when you start going up from like you're in the, you're in the 20s, then you go up to the, the high 30s, 40 range, then you're up to 47 wins. This should be the season that they go up into the mid-50s. And from what I saw last night, it's going to happen. Miami, which I think the over under was around 43 and the theory was well they're, they're going to be healthy, Jimmy's going to actually play, he's motivated. Now I'm starting to wonder is this the end? And there's not a lot of doppelgangers in NBA history for this. I would like I was looking at the late 80s, early 90s pistons which had they were in the Eastern Conference finals for five straight years. They won two titles, which is better than Miami did with this group. But same kind of thing like a five year run built around defense and veterans and just toughness and a really good infrastructure and some sort of culture that if you remember in the 92 playoffs, all of a sudden the Knicks beat them and it just felt like within a year it was over. And in 1990 they went from 48 wins in 92, which was their the year after the window to 40 the next year. And then there were 20 and 62 by 1994. And I'm starting to wonder is that Miami's future unless they do something drastic. So what happens? We always wondered, all right, if this goes bad for Miami starting out of the gate, would Butler be available? What does that mean? He's pretty expensive. He's almost $100 million. For two years they did not give him an extension, which I think was smart from a trade standpoint. You go through all the teams and there's less Butler suitors than you would think. So the obvious team. And this ties into another lesson from watching league pass in a mucinex haze last night for seven hours. Houston has too many guys and it's going to be a problem for them. And as Daryl More hates this theory, but I think this is a real theory, the too many guys theory. When too many guys think that they deserve between 30 and 40 minutes a game, you tend to have like some sort of rocky. It just doesn't feel right. The Houston thing didn't feel right to me yesterday. I like all their players, but I'm not sure they know which players to play. And they're like basically dying to make a 3 for 1 trade. Houston was the team that jumped out to me the most last night as a Butler home because that ties in with Emeidoka. They have all the different assets. Like they could. They have a Steven Adams expiring post, Dillon Brooks, then you could move wherever you want from there with an asset like could it be Thompson, the Thompson twin, Ahmed Thompson. Could it be like a Cam Whitmore, Tate's expiring and a bunch of the picks that they have? Maybe it's not that many picks. Maybe Jimmy Butler doesn't have as much value as we think. But in my head I was thinking Brooks and Adams and Thompson for Butler made a ton of sense for both sides. If Miami was like it's reboot time. Cause they would both stay a little relevant but also be able to move on from this Butler thing. Because if it gets bad, which we'll see, it might have just been a one game aberration. That's why you can't overreact to week one. But if it gets bad, they don't have a lot of options and they gotta move fast. Cause what you don't want is an unhappy Jimmy Butler and then you're trading them for 30 cents on the dollar. New Orleans is a possibility. That's Brandon Ingram would have to be in that and maybe Jordan Hawkins. But if I'm New Orleans, I'm not even sure why I would be thinking about that. And then Golden State would be the other one. Golden State. Steve Kerr is playing 12 guys and proud of it. Was bragging about my 12 band rotation. That's never worked in the history of the league. But I think he's trying to keep everybody involved because that team knows they're a three for one. So could that be just Wiggins, Kaminga and Looney down the road? I don't know. I don't know what Miami's thinking with their future. But I'll tell you this. They're not in the class with Orlando anymore. And I think Cleveland probably same thing. Knicks, Celtics, no way. They're just not good enough anymore. And this is what happens. You have these windows, the window ends. And either they have to try to add to the nucleus they have or they have to call an audible and maybe think about traded Jimmy so that was my biggest takeaway last night. I was like holy shit, Jimmy Butler might get traded soon. Second one on the Six Pack, AKA the Sick Pack. The Rookie of the Year race is going to be the weirdest one we've had since 2017, which was Brogdon winning, Sarri finishing second and then Joel Embiid who played 31 games, somehow finished third in Rookie of the Year. So that was the weirdest. 2013 was super weird. That was Michael Carter Williams edging out Victor Ledipo and Trey Burke and one of the plum leaves was fourth. I don't even remember which one. But you remember Michael Carter Williams just kind of putting up decent stats on a terrible Sixers team and none of us felt good about voting for him, but we didn't really have any other choice. And then 2001 was the other horrible one. That was Mike Miller, who I think averaged 11 points a game won Rookie of the Year Kenny Martin second Mark Jackson third. Not Mark Jackson, the announcer. Mark Jackson with a C. The center who was like 26 that season. So those are the three worst rookie of the Year races that we've had. This one, Zach Edey is still the favorite of +290 if you watched him last night. Listen, I'm not panicking. I'm keeping my Ed stock. But that was last night was a disaster. He just fouled trouble immediately. He missed foul shots. They were going at him on defense and did not look great. Reese is plus 650. Hold that thought. Reed Shepard seven to one and I'm not sure he's going to get enough minutes unless they trade him. Castle +950 spurs we haven't seen him yet. And then connect on the Lakers. I don't think he's going to get enough minutes. He'd have to have some sort of injury. But he's at least somebody that is going to be. Seems like he's going to have an impact right away, at least as a bench guy. Reese O'Shea is the one I'm targeting here. Plus 650. It's dropped even from two days ago. I think it was eight to one or plus 750. Now it's plus 650 on FanDuel. Listen, I made fun of the Risachet pick around the time when it happened. Just the concept of a skinny French guy. His name was Zachare Risher. What are the odds that somebody with that name is going to be good? All stupid stuff that I love to make fun of. But when you watch the clips from him overseas, Hustler good athlete, unafraid, good three point shooter. There was stuff there that seemed like, oh, this will be interesting to see if it translates. Watched him in the preseason house and I talked about this on the over under pod. Huge fan of his. Really hustles, runs the floor. Like there's certain rookies that would learn a lot just about the hustle that this guy has, including maybe a couple in the Lakers that aren't Dalton connect. But I think he's going to have a real impact for them. Even last night, his box score, he was like 2 for 7, 2 for 8. But he got good shots. Like he missed a layup where he got fouled. He not afraid to shoot threes. He's a good defensively and I just kind of like that Hawks team in general. We went over on them. That was a lock for me and I think this kid is good. So that would be. That would be. I'm not allowed to bet on this because I have a vote, but that would be. I think the odds are a little out of whack because especially like if Hunter got hurt, any of the swings on the Hawks got hurt. I think that kid's good. I think they might have nailed that pick. If you did the draft over again, I would probably still take him first. It'd be like him versus shepherd and Castle would be the three do overs. And I still think he's in the mix. So somehow the Hawks who usually screw up everything did not screw up that pick. All right, third takeaway for the six pack from just from last night. And this is a preseason thing too we talked about in the over under pod. Will Ben Simmons actually have trade value this year? So this is easily one of the strangest careers in the history of the league. He's only 28 years old. He's only played 333 games and 22 playoff games. This is his ninth year. By contrast, Jalen Brown's 541 and 124, they were the same draft in 2020, which seems like it was a hundred years ago. He was third team all NBA and first team all defense. So that's both a million years ago and also not that long ago. That was four and a half years. He's been in witness protection for the last three years. And nobody thinks he likes basketball. Literally nobody. And yet when you watch him, it seems like he'd be fun to play with. So like if you watched the Nets last night, you knew nothing. And they had kind of a noble loss to the Hawks where they Kept coming back, coming back and somehow covered miraculously might have had a little action on that one. You would have three takeaways from that game knowing nothing other than the salaries. One is that the Nick Claxton extension they gave was idiotic. And I mean he. I don't even know if he's a crunch time guy for them anymore. With Simmons, you would think Cam Thomas is a Hall of Fame worst guy ever to play with. And this is something we talked about two weeks ago in the over under pot. I was saying how the 1980s San Diego Clippers were one of my favorite bad team, good stats. They had Freeman, Williams and World be free and they just a bunch of dudes. Sven Nader, 15 rebounds a game. Cam Thomas, it's going up if he has it. There was a moment in the first quarter where it seemed like he was on pace for 60 field goals. He scored 20 plus in the fourth quarter. Every time he gets it, it's going up. If somebody else shoots in crunch time, he's furious and he just seems miserable to play with. So that would be a second takeaway. And then the. And by the way, that's the perfect guy to have on a bad team that's trying to tank for a top five pick. You want somebody that at least is going to put up stats and seem interest and to the casual fans seem interesting and yet he's helping you lose. Ben Simmons is actually an asset. Was the third takeaway. He could handle the ball. His point guard was size, he could get to the rim when he wanted. He was rebounding, he was playing defense, didn't play in crunch time, which I thought was interesting. I think they were just afraid of his shooting and his free throw shooting especially. But it feels like he's healthy again. So then you start thinking, well, what does that mean? He's an expiring at 40.3 million. Could they trade him? I went through every team. I don't see it. But here's what I do see. I think he has a chance to become one of the most fascinating February buyout guys in a few years because he could be the center of New Orleans. He could be an absolutely crazy Draymond Green backup at Golden State. He could be a really fun Heat culture reclamation project. He's kind of exactly what the Knicks need. And I'll talk about them. They're coming up later in the six pack. But I'm watching this Ben Simmons thing because if he can prove that he's healthy over the next three months in Brooklyn, they don't want to keep him. They don't want to be good. So either he's trade or he's a buyout guy, but I actually think he could have an impact on the playoff raise. Playing 18 to 20 minutes a game for a really good team. The guy's a good basketball player. Maybe he gives a shit now. We'll see. Uh, the fourth thing, this is a brief one, but ESPN built their a lot of their coverage yesterday around the Intuit Dome, which is the new Steve Ballmer thing that opened up that I have not been to yet. Um, it's very cool, apparently. Really cool basketball arena. ESPN played it up like we were sending the astronauts to the Moon in 1969. And this is a recurring theme with TV networks, whether it's football, basketball, baseball. Viewers don't care about arenas and stadiums. They all look the same when you're watching them on tv. Maybe the ballparks outdoors look different, but when you're talking basketball, when you're talking football, they all look the same. And it's like, oh, Jerry world. Oh my God, look at that jumbotron. I can't really tell unless I'm there. Same thing for the Clippers. They're blowing this up. Look at this wall. And then the game starts and it just looks like every other game I'm watching on league pass. So I would urge everybody to settle down and maybe scale back the Steve Ballmer reaction shots from 700 million during a two and a half hour game to maybe, maybe 10. Just a thought. All right, this is my superior take. Buckle up, get ready. Jason Tatum's MVP case. Oh, yeah, you heard me. He fixed the hitch. Hit a hitch. And his shot. His shot. Something weird happened with the shot. It's almost like in golf, like Tiger would have those moments when all of a sudden his swing was a little messed up. It happens to golfers, happens to shooters. Might be happening to Mikhail Bridges right now. But he fixed the hitch. And I just want to thank Steve Kerr, because I think Steve Kerr put a giant throbbing chip on his shoulder by not playing him in the Olympics. And by the way, Tatum didn't really deserve to play in the Olympics. As I mentioned on previous pods, his shot wasn't going in. They needed him to be a knockdown shooter. And if the Tatum that we saw on opening night was there in the Olympics, Steve Kerr would have played him. So I don't care because this is great, because this is a title defense season where everyone has a chip on their shoulders somehow. I love it. He made seven plus threes twice last season. So there were real signs last year that the three pointer or something weird was going on in 23. He made it five times. 20, 22 five times. And his shot looks like if and I did this whole thing on my pod about how his shot his rookie year, his second year, how smooth it was, the quick release and then he developed this weird hitch thing and the hitch is gone and he looks like Tatum again. His MVP odds dropped 13 to 1 to 9 to 1. I'm so mad we didn't talk about this in the over underpods because this would have been a great pick. And the reason none of us want to do it was because we didn't know what a shot was going to look like. And his shot just was better two, three years ago than it was last year. But now that his shot seems like it's back, you start looking at he's 27 years old this year and you're 27 guys in general, this is usually the year. So you go back the last 40 plus years NBA history 1983 Moses 27 years old MVP title 84 Bird MVP title 87 Magic MVP title all those guys were 27. 91 Jordan MVP title 2000 Shaq MVP title 2004 KG only MVP season 2006 Dirk. That was his breakout season when he beat the spurs and in game seven and went to the finals. 2006 Kobe that was the greatest Kobe season. 35 points a game. He was unbelievable. He should have won the MVP. 2012 LeBron MVP first title Miami that was the year he put the chest hair on and killed the Celtics. 2016 Curry 73 wins MVP Finals 2017 Harden finished second in MVP that year. Should have won, should have beaten Westbrook. I'm on the right side of history, thank you very much. I voted for Harden. 2023 Jokic title second MVP, second in MVP but won the title that year. So this is a re. This is the most important age for NBA stars slash superstars. And even you think like Duncan and Giannis. Duncan's Greatest year was 2003. He was 26. And Giannis's greatest year was 21 when he won the title. So did Duncan by the way. But Giannis was 26 that year. 22 Giannis I think was the best ever version of Giannis. That was the year the Celtics miraculously beat him and and ended up going to the finals. But Giannis was incredible that year. The point is 27 is the year and it should be the peak of somebody's career. In a lot of different ways. And maybe this is going to happen in Tatum. So nine to one again, I'm not allowed to vote on it, but seems low to me. All right, last one for the six pack. So New York and Minnesota took big identity change swings with that Towns for Randall and DDP trade. And I thought it was fascinating watching both of them on Tuesday night because the Knicks just felt different from last year. A big piece of that is Hartenstein. They lost the offensive rebounding, they lost the defense, and they lost the playmaking. He was like a secondary playmaker for them. And so that had nothing to do with the trade because they'd already lost them to okc, but they really missed that. And then, you know, not having defensenzo with the Villanova four, with how well those three guys played together, plus with Bridges, the extra shooting, you felt that one too. And then conversely, with Minnesota, no Towns, the size that him and Gobert and Nas Reed and just how suffocating, overwhelming the three of those guys were as a three person combo, the spacing of the Towns threes, the physicality, it really felt like they missed that. Randle just looked horrible. The Randall Gobert minutes were really bad. And Randle, I didn't think he played that hard. It didn't seem, it seemed like he really screwed up every. It screwed up their spacing. Everything you felt kind of iffy about with that trade was, was, was on display for the first game. We'll say, you know, I'm not, I'm not, I'm giving them 20 games. I want to see how they incorporate all this stuff, how they figure out the lineups. But so you had that and then you had Bridges, who was the other big Knicks trade, and OG and Obi and Tatum and Brown did whatever they wanted in that game. So you got those two guys, you're trying to build this team to defeat the Celtics and the Celtics demolish them. And then the Randall piece, like, I just didn't feel like Minnesota was better anyway. So how does this get fixed? Well, for the Knicks, they're going to have to get one more big guy at some point before February. Maybe it's just Mitchell Robinson coming back. I don't trust Mitchell Robinson to stay healthy, but maybe that's the answer. But they need defense and rebounding and they need Bridges. They need more from him. They need him to figure out his shot. They really need playmaking from him. And you could see them trying to work him into stuff. But I've already had so much fun making fun of the Knick fan friends that I have about Bridges, the hitch in his shot, it's like, whoa, do you know shot was fucked up when you traded five first round picks for him. It's great. The Knicks fans have no response. There's like, no, no, he'll figure it out. He's 39% career shooter. He had one good three in the Boston game where I was like, okay, maybe he'll figure it out. But they just need more from him. You give up that much for Bridges. He needs to be in the offense more. He needs to be a 40% three point shooter. He just needs to feel more impactful than he did in game one. That's not rocket science. Say that, but so Bridges is the guy to watch for that team. Then Minnesota. I'd like to see more Reed and Randle lineups and Reed and Gobert and Les Townes and Gobert. I'd like to see them go smaller. And I want to watch whether Ant gets frustrated or not because the spacing was weird. You could see him getting frustrated during the game all of a sudden. Minnesota, such a feel good story last year. 56 wins and now seems like a work in progress. And what made them special last year? They just didn't seem that special. They seemed like a team that Anthony Davis was just running amok on. So I'm watching them both of those teams identities these first 20 games. Will they be able to find their 24, 25 versions of them? So that's what we got for the. For the six pack. We'll cover the league pass rankings in part two of the podcast. But that was today's six major things. And remember, Michelob Ultra Courtside gets you closer to the game than ever before. Check out micheloblcher.com courtside to learn how you can get closer to the action. We'll be back after this. The NBA's back. FanDuel, America's number one sportsbook. They want you to catch all the action. They're giving everyone three months of NBA league pass. All you have to do is catch every tip off and buzzer beater. By placing any $5 bet on the NBA, and I mean any $5 bet, you can grab a game, you could do a future. Whatever you want to do, just put five bucks down. I'm interested in if you want to get totally random. I think Charlotte might be able to outperform expectations a little early in the season. I also think the Celtics if you want to do, you know, Celtics minus 19 and a half, minus 20 for some of these games, they're going to have a couple of blowout wins early because their infrastructure is so good. You do you but the next time you get a hunch on who's going to win, how many points a player will score, you can watch your picks come to life live. Just visit FanDuel.com BS to get three months of NBA League Pass courtesy of FanDuel make every moment more with FanDuel official sportsbook partner of the NBA. You must be 21 + in President select states or 18 + in President D.C. after three month free trial, the full price of League Pass will be automatically charged monthly. Cancel anytime. No refunds. Terms, restrictions and embargoes apply. Limit one pass per customer. See [e-mail] game problem call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com this episode is brought to you by Peloton. Now, I know what you're thinking. Peloton doesn't look that tough. Well, let me tell you, Peloton is way more challenging than most people think. Whether you're on the Peloton Tread or diving into their All Access membership, they've got a wealth of running and strength training programs that will really push you to your limits. And these instructors, they're not messing around. We're talking military trained sub three hour marathoners and former college athletes who know how to bring out your inner beast. And with tons of options to choose from, you can gear up for race day with seasoned marathoners leading the charge. Plus custom strength workouts to keep you accountable and crushing those goals. Peloton is all about the details too. Want to up your game as a runner? Well, their pace targets let you tailor your workout so you can truly challenge yourself every step of the way. Find your push. Find your power with [e-mail] all right, our old friend Ariel Helwani is here because UFC 308 is coming up and because the Celtics beat the Knicks. Those are really the only two reasons. By the way, congratulations. You launched the Uncrowned Network on Yahoo. Uncrowned. What are we calling it? Uncrowned. Uncrowned Network Uncrowned.

[Ariel Helwani]

It's just uncrowned. By the way. You know what? It all makes sense now, Bill. It actually all makes sense. I can't tell you how happy I was when I got the text from you two days ago in the midst of the Celtics. Just absolutely laying the smackdown on my beloved Knicks. A very depressing night. And I got this text and I knew you were probably watching the game and very happy about what was happening. But the text made my night because, look, I'll be honest. The only question I got one question. When the new era started, I got one question. I swear, all my life, I was at the Olympics. People come up to me, does this mean no more appearances on Bill's show? Oh, God, though, that was the question I got. It was the only question I got. Honestly, everyone was excited except for this. And I said, look, it's up to him. I'm not going to beg to be on a show I'd love to be on. I always love to be on. And then I got the text, and I was like, you know what? Shout out to Bill. And then, of course, you mentioned this right here and now about the Celtics. I'm kind of over it. I'm. It's all eyes on Pacers Friday night. And so now I just kind of feel like you invited me to rub it in.

[Bill Simmons]

No, no. Well, I did want to make fun of McCalbridge's hitch for, like, two seconds.

[Ariel Helwani]

We're good. We're good. Now, did you see the fact you.

[Bill Simmons]

Don'T have a center? Yeah. You made 13 at the end.

[Ariel Helwani]

Don't have a center. What are you talking about? We have one of the greatest shooting big men in the stretch five.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ariel Helwani]

Would you. Would you have rather that or Precious Ochua? Imagine they don't make that deal. And Precious is our starting center, and he's injured. We're now starting games with Jericho Sims as our starting five.

[Bill Simmons]

They haven't made it before you came on. I did on my pod. I'm not judging the Knicks or the timberwolves until the 21 game mark. There's some things that I was concerned about for both teams, but I just don't think we're going to know for a while. I'm actually a little more concerned just with the Timberwolves that their identity changed so dramatically. You guys had already lost Hartenstein and you knew it was going to be a little different this year anyway. But I, you know, we'll know. 21 games in, we'll know who won the trade.

[Ariel Helwani]

In your opinion right now, who do you say will win the trade in the end?

[Bill Simmons]

So I've changed my mind on this seven times. And I. Heading into the season, I was like, I think Minnesota won the trade. And then I watched it, and Davis was just annihilating them. And I was like, man, I know he used to do well against the. The T Wolves last year, but not this well. And just having These big bodies to throw at people like him and Jokic was such an advantage for them, and they just felt smaller to me. So I. And the spacing was weird, and I. So I. Again, I. I want to wait 20 games, but I didn't love how they looked.

[Ariel Helwani]

I didn't love how we looked either, but we'll be okay. We'll be okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the big thing. I said this at the top.

[Ariel Helwani]

You.

[Bill Simmons]

You just need to figure out how to incorporate bridges more, because I actually think he's a really, really advanced, like, playmaker. I think he can create shots for people. I think you can run offense through him, and they just kind of have to figure out how to get him more involved. Steve is just, like, kind of standing on the side a lot of that game.

[Ariel Helwani]

That and Josh Hart just gives you nothing offensively right now. I feel like his confidence isn't there, and I feel like he would be better suited off the bench. I don't want McBride to start because he's such a lightning rod off the bench. I don't know what the answer is. I can't wait for the Tyler Kolik era, though, to officially begin. He will be our eventual backup point guard, and I think he'll be incredible. I love that kid. I adore him.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I knew the Celtics are going to be awesome these first two months because it's the history of. After you win a title, you always have a jump the next year from a confidence. They brought everybody back. They had the same infrastructure. They're going to shoot even more threes, so they're going to look really good the first two months compared to a team that's, you know, just been thrown together in some ways, so.

[Ariel Helwani]

Right. Any word on if Reggie's going to stick around as a broadcaster next year when all the changes happen? Because he is just getting insufferable. I mean, he was horrendous. I mean, it's just like, oh, they have a chip on their shoulder. Oh, my God. There's no chip on anyone's shoulder. Calm the F down, Reggie, okay? Just because Jayson Tatum didn't play in the Olympics, the guy's doing fine. All right? This narrative that they're trying to build, that the Celtics have some sort of chip on their shoulder.

[Bill Simmons]

Tatum has a chip.

[Ariel Helwani]

Lazy.

[Bill Simmons]

Tatum has a chip. I don't think there's any questions.

[Ariel Helwani]

He was MVP of the final.

[Bill Simmons]

I know, but he didn't not play in the Olympics. I think was. I think it was a look in the mirror moment, and he fixed his shot and he looked great, you know. So the thing with you, first of all, my son demanded that I had you on this week.

[Ariel Helwani]

Love, Ben.

[Bill Simmons]

Second, people have been joking in my life with me about how is my son gonna be my Bronny James, where, you know, he graduates high school, and then he's in college for a year, and then he's vice president of the ringer. And I'm just like, here's my son. He's running stuff now. And I was like, my son's not working for me. He's gonna work for Ariel in, like, five years.

[Ariel Helwani]

That's.

[Bill Simmons]

That's gonna be his boss.

[Ariel Helwani]

Can I hire him right now?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he probably could, but he's really pumped for this UFC 308. And I was trying to think of, like, a big picture question to start this. Cause, as you know, I've really gotten into this the last few years. It feels like we have been talking for the entire 2020s. Who's gonna take McGregor's spot? Who's the next McGregor? Who's going to be the face of the UFC? And now it's almost the end of 2024. We're in the mid-2020s, and we still don't have the answer. But I do think we have two amazing candidates, one of whom is fighting in 308, the other who has become my favorite UFC fighter ever, Pereira. And it feels like this is now Toporia versus Pereira. One of these two is going to become the face of the company. So who are you betting on?

[Ariel Helwani]

Wow, that is a great question. I think Topuria's longevity is on his side. He's a lot younger. Alex Pereira had an entire kickboxing career before he became an MMA fighter. He was a two division champion in glory. He's 37, I believe, off the top of my head. Topuria is still in his 20s, and so you would have to think. And undefeated. He's never been knocked out before. He hardly gets hit in his fights, so I would say him, Obviously. He also opens up that whole market in Europe and in particular in Spain. Dana White said earlier on Thursday that they're now talking to Barcelona and Madrid to hold an event there in 2025. And he's been pushing for them to go to the Bernabeu, which is where Real Madrid plays, which would be a gigantic deal. Like 80,000 people. And I think they can actually draw 80,000 for a Topuria title defense there. They're not having those discussions. If not for Ilya Topuria and how popular he has gotten. I said this on my show this week and it's a very lazy thing to compare people to Conor. Oh, he's just like Conor. He's playing a Conor character. And Max himself has accused Ilya of being a copycat. But when you listen to Ilya speak, the confidence that he has, the way he talks about his opponents with no respect whatsoever, just like that, he's going to flick them off his shoulder. It is very reminiscent of 2015, 2016. Conor McGregor, he is not trying to be friends with these guys. He doesn't want to be respectful towards them. He's not trying to pay them any kind of respect, pay homage to them or anything. He is there to annihilate all of them. And thus far he has. So the build has been great. If I had to pick one who's just going to be at the top longer, it's probably Topuria. But I would say right now, Pereira. No one dislikes Alex Pereira. A lot of people dislike Topuria. A lot of people want to see Topuria get his comeuppance. Want to see the beloved Max Holloway shut him up. There is no one who feels that way about Alex Perez. So it's a bit of a two parter answer.

[Bill Simmons]

Is Pereira the highest approver rating UFC fighter since who?

[Ariel Helwani]

God, that's a great question.

[Bill Simmons]

He's just absolutely beloved. I just can't believe how much I enjoy his fights. Just every piece of it. From the walkouts to the ring to his Michael Myers stare down at the opponent when they're just showing him, it's like, it's just, it's the best theater we have in any combat sport right now.

[Ariel Helwani]

Couldn't agree more. That's MMA or boxing. He. He's the male fighter of the year. And some of my friends are trying to say if Toporia Wins, he'll be 20 with a win over. I was going to ask him and Holloway. If Holloway wins, we'll have the BMF win and then this win. Those guys are 2 and 0 and they're great wins. Alex Pereira is not only the fighter of the year, male fighter of the year for 2024 for the UFC. He is their MVP. He has saved their ass three times this year. They didn't have a main eventer for UFC 300. He says, fine, I'll do it. Essentially on a month's notice. They had Conor McGregor with a busted toe for this gigantic card in late June. They couldn't find a soul. The guy is in Australia doing a promotional tour 10 days before the fight and he says, fine, I'll do it. With his own broken toe. And he beats a guy who he had just beaten like eight months prior at msg. And then he wasn't supposed to fight in Salt Lake City. Salt Lake City was supposed to be headlined by Topuria versus Holloway. And the main event for this weekend was supposed to be Islam Makhachev against Armen Tsarukian. Makhachev got injured. They didn't have a main event for Abu Dhabi, which is a huge market for them. So they pushed Topuria and Holloway to Abu Dhabi and left them without anyone for Utah. Now you may say to yourself, who cares about Utah? Utah is paying a ton of money for the UFC to come hold events there. The owner of the Jazz and the hockey club, Ryan Smith, is leading the charge. He wants the ufc. So that's why they've had these three big shows there the last three years. They needed a big main event, so they called upon, once again the mvp, Alex Perer, to save the day. There's only one guy who is an open hater of Alex Perer, and it's Jamal Hill. Jamal Hill is like his biggest hater, but that's just because he's trying to get another fight against them. Everyone else, to Your point, you're 100% right. It has been a very long time since there has been someone at the top like this who just doesn't seem to have any detractors.

[Bill Simmons]

So who is it? So has this ever happened before?

[Ariel Helwani]

So I'm trying to, I'm trying to even.

[Bill Simmons]

Like McGregor.

[Ariel Helwani]

Yeah. No, no.

[Bill Simmons]

But he still had people bitching about him. And you know, he was controversial the whole time.

[Ariel Helwani]

Yeah. If you just go through the list like, like McGregor 100% had his detractors. Even Ronda Rousey in her heyday had many detractors. People said that she was overhyped or that she wasn't nice, this and that. Even Georges St. Pierre, who is from my hometown, who is like the nicest, most down to earth respected guy and respectful guy. People would say sometimes that he was too boring. You can't say any of that about Alex Pereira. Even Anderson Silva in his heyday, people said, ah, you know, sometimes he doesn't take it seriously. He's acting crazy. He's. He's not delivering when he should be delivering. He's kind of playing with his food. Demetrius Johnson is another one. People said, ah, he's not that exciting. He doesn't have a good personality. So it's a fantastic point. Like, you have to really rack your Brain. There are guys like Robbie Lawler and Carlos Condit who are just kind of like, you know, oh, you know, they're always going to deliver, but they never had the stature and the title runs that Pereira did. So to have that and to also not be involved in a single boring fight, like, even when he lost to Izzy, that was an incredible fight. He got knocked out. He, like he is.

[Bill Simmons]

He's about to knock Izzy out, and he got knocked out.

[Ariel Helwani]

He was about to knock. So he delivers whether he wins or loses. And these days, more often than not, he is winning.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he checks two boxes that I think are the fundamental boxes to have somebody be like, a true a plus lister. UFC 1 is the intimidation piece where even before the fight starts, you're like, shit, we don't want to be this other person. Like, Rousey had that until it got knocked the hell out of her by Holly Holm. But she. She had it where she would go into the Octagon and you'd be like, oh, man, I just wouldn't want to fight her. And that's. There's probably what, 10, 12 people in the history of UFC who have had that piece, right? But then the other piece is he's just watching him solve that last fight, watch him solve Roundtree, where he had that crazy. That lunging left hook that was just. It was a little ollie Frazierish. And you're watching like, oh, man, it feels like he can get these three punch combos off whenever he wants. How's Pereira going to solve this? And then you just saw him between rounds three and round four, he started moving up a little bit, started figuring out how to. And then all of a sudden, he solved the fight, which I think is the other piece you need if you're going to be truly great at ufc. Like, can you solve something that didn't go the exact way you thought it was going to go? And he has that too, 100%.

[Ariel Helwani]

And the other thing is, it felt like in the fourth round, he was saying to himself, all right, enough of this. And he just took it up a notch. And he is such a good striker again. He's a two division glory. Kickboxing glory is the UFC of kickboxing. So he is as elite as it gets. So it doesn't ever feel like it's fluky. It doesn't ever feel like it's just, you know, a thing. And what's even more impressive is he doesn't speak English. You know what I mean? So a lot of people can connect on you, like, with you if they cut great promos or have great interviews. Part of the magic. Part of the magic with Mike Tyson back in the day, of course, was his interviews. Whether he was talking crazy or acting crazy, like, people were always captivated. Prayer doesn't give you much, but it's, as the kids say, his aura, his stare downs, the bow and arrow thing, just his whole vibe, people are just enamored with. And now he's starting to show us a little bit more of his personality. And then when you start to learn more about his story, 10 years ago, this guy was an alcoholic. He was working at a tire shop. He had nothing going on in his life. And so to turn it all around, like, this is truly one of the great stories in MMA and in combat sports in the last decade.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he's like a sports movie. Yeah. I was thinking as you were talking about wrestling, who tries to do all these. We both love wrestling, these different characters. And the hardest character to pull off is the mystery character. Like, they probably did it the best with the undertaker, 100%. And there's been some other ones. Kane was like that. But trying to have the person who. To hide the fact that they don't have an amazing personality. You add this, like, eerie, scary, doesn't say much. Maybe the manager is talking for him.

[Ariel Helwani]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And Pereira has it. Like, I don't. I barely even. I couldn't even tell you what his voice sounds like. I know he does, like, interviews with the translator after the fights, but it just works for him. He's. He's Michael Myers. That's. That's the Persona that he has.

[Ariel Helwani]

And the way they shoot the stare downs like before the fight, the way they've now shot them cinematically like this is brilliant. His coach is also his translator, Klino. And he's a great character too. So they have become, you know, like that Paul Bearer, Undertaker dynamic. Bray Wyatt was another good one who, you know, when he wasn't talking was a classic character who didn't speak and had that. Had that intensity. One of my all time favorites was Kamala. The first Kamala in our lives back in the day. Not Kamala. Kamala, you know, the Ugandan giant with kimchi. His. Remember him. Like, I was legit terrified of that guy. And kimchi would speak. I believe that was his name. He would speak on his behalf. So, yeah, that's part of it. Now. Most people, you would say, oh, you need to speak English, like triple G. Once he starts saying big drama show, even those, like, short sentences. It took his popularity To a different level. Khabib became more popular when he started speaking English. Anderson did as well. Junior Dos Santos did as well. Pereira doesn't need it. I've never heard him say anything in English other than maybe thank you. And no one is asking for it. No one needs it. No one wants it.

[Bill Simmons]

He's my first favorite UFC fighter, and I've been watching for a while. He's the first one that I'm like, I just love this guy. I'm going to be devastated if he loses. I was scared during that last fight.

[Ariel Helwani]

Have you seen him live?

[Bill Simmons]

I have, actually. I saw, like, maybe like, three, four fights ago. I can't remember. Okay, who we saw, but the next one, I don't. When is the next one?

[Ariel Helwani]

Okay, so here's the interesting thing on this card is Magomed Ankalaev against Alexander Rakic. Ankalaev should have fought Alex Pereira two weeks ago. He is just a tough wrestler from Russia who is just that sort of prototypical tough wrestler from Russia who doesn't offer much in terms of showmanship. And it is very clear, I think he's unbeaten in his last 12. There's one draw in that mix. Yeah, it's very clear that the UFC is not too excited about the prospects of A, him fighting for a belt and also, B, him fighting against Alex Pereira, because his skillset grappling is Pereira's weakness, so to speak. And so they have put him in there against Alexander Rakic, who's an underdog, but who, if they were being honest with you, in a rare moment behind the scenes, they would probably tell you, gosh, we hope Rakic wins this fight so that, you know, Magomed goes away. If Magomed wins, I don't know how you deny him. And that may be a tough, tough test for Pereira, just because of how the skill sets match up.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, that's one of the reasons this card's so good, because that's one versus five. I think UFC's in a weird place where there's a certain type of fighter that succeeds, and we saw in the last pay per view that's just not that fun to watch. And that I think, as they. As they battle between, do we want the biggest audience possible, or do we want to just have this be a competition between people that are awesome at fighting? Sometimes those two things are directly opposed to one another. And the worst kind of person to watch is just the person who's the takedown guy who just has you down. It's five minutes, and he's Just grinding him on the top. People want to see Pereira, so I can totally understand why they boned over Uncle Iov with this last one, because he should have had the last fight.

[Ariel Helwani]

So a little bit of a tough stretch for them in that regard. And I understand what you're saying. Going back to July, Leon Edwards, who's becoming a huge star in the uk, he loses to Bilal Muhammad, who has that sort of style that people aren't in love with. Then we go to August. Israel Dessaneya is fighting for the belt again. He's supremely popular. He loses to Drickus du Plessis, who isn't as popular. Then we get to September, and Sean O'Malley, who connects with a lot of the young kids, who's very popular in his own right, loses to Merab Diwali Shvili in a fight that a lot of people didn't like. And so, yeah, I was saying to people before the Rountree fight who, you know, I think Rountree is an incredible fighter with an incredible backstory. He's just not quite there. People don't know him. They're not connected to him. If Pereira would lose, like, if you just look at who's in the top 10, pound for pound, there aren't a ton of, you know, superstars. Now, people like to bring this up all the time. Oh, the lack of superstars. Where's the McGregor? Where's the this guy? That guy? The UFC is so on fire right now as a brand. They don't necessarily need that person. Would it be nice? Yes. Are they searching for it? Yes, sure. But the three letters are the biggest star in the sport. And the ufc, no matter where they go, they're selling out and they're breaking gate records. It's just automatic at this point. So I don't think it's as big of an issue as some people like to think. Eventually, it's going to become an issue. It can't last like this forever. But right now, it's a little bit of a talking point that people are making out to be a bigger deal, the bigger issue.

[Bill Simmons]

That. And I don't know. I don't understand this, like, one tenth the level you do, but as I'm watching, I'm like, why doesn't everyone fight this way? It just seems unstoppable. What? This. It seems so much harder to fight somebody like this than a striker. Like, if you were just talking the best possible version of those guys versus Pereira, I think he would be in trouble against uncle iv. I do.

[Ariel Helwani]

I mean, it's just the way they're brought up. And not everyone has that skillset. There are just some guys who aren't good and they're at that. And there are some guys who just don't enjoy fighting like that to their detriment. And there are some guys who can, you know, they can be strikers their whole life and just never pick up on it. Shout out to big Francis Ngannou, who came back on Saturday, I don't know if you guys watched that one, but showed off the offensive wrestling. And that was always his biggest Achilles heel. Like he went for a takedown, got Fajeta down, almost got submitted, thwarted that attempt, and then won via ground and pound all in about 3 minutes and 30 seconds. So some people pick it up, some don't. Some want to be exciting, some don't. But then there are other guys who are just like, you know, excitement be damned, I'm going to do what I have to do. And you see in the case of Magumen Uncle Ayev, even in the case of Bilal, Bilal had to win like 10, 11 in a row or at least be unbeaten in 10, 11 in a row before they gave him the title shot. And even as he was sitting there as the clear cut number one contender, they were doing everything in their power to give it to someone else. They offered Leon three different opponents, or excuse me, they tried to book Leon against three different opponents. Leon said yes to all of them for UFC 300. They couldn't figure it out. Khamzat was one of them. Islam Moving up from 55 to 70 was another. Shavkat, who's the guy? Bilal's fighting in December was another. Like they really didn't want to do this, but at some point you have to make the fights.

[Bill Simmons]

Let's take a break and we'll talk about the rest of the card. This episode is brought to you by the all new reimagined Nissan Kicks. From the bold new exterior to the performance and tech features like intelligent all wheel drive and a Bose personal plus sound system. Cars where I live, I live in the Los Angeles area and cars are one of the most important things you can have. Cause you're in them a lot. Cause you gotta drive around all over the place. You know what's fun? To have a nice car for an everyday commute, to have music and the ability to do hands free stuff and just to feel safe, you can do it. Drive the all new reimagined Nissan Kicks today. Head over to Nissan USA to Learn more Bose Personal plus sound system is an available feature. Bose is a registered trademark in the Bose Corporation. Intelligent all wheel drive cannot prevent collisions or provide enhanced traction in all conditions. Always monitor traffic and weather conditions. This episode is brought to you by SimpliSafe. It is football season, which means the holidays are coming up and actually Simplisafe is already having a Black Friday sale. So if you're worried about the safety of your home and family, now is the time to get home security. I personally like to use Simplisafe because they can stop intruders before they break into your home. That's kind of the goal. I think they take home security to the next level with their active guard outdoor protection. It's not an old school system. They only take action when somebody is already in your house. No, that's not Simplisafe. They take action before somebody gets in your house. There's no long term contracts, no cancellation fees. It's around $1 a day and it gives me peace of mind and helps me and my family feel protected. So take advantage of this Black Friday sale this week only. Right now you could take 60% off any new system with a select professional monitoring plan. Head to SimpliSafe.com BS to claim your discount and make sure your home is safe this season. Keep your home, your family and your peace of mind protected with Simplisafe. Again, go to simplisafe.com/bs that is SimpliSafe with two eyes. There's no safe like Simplisafe. So we didn't talk about Max Holloway and what's at stake for him. Where I don't want to say his career was over two years ago, but you know, it, it seemed like maybe it was the end of the end of the peak and he was going to move into that territory that a lot of these UFC guys move into. It's like, oh, I love that guy and maybe he'll win one. But he just kind of move into a different phase and that did not happen. And now if he wins this fight and becomes the first loss for Toporia like this vaults him to some new level. He's also beloved. It's a great spot for him. Is there a chance for him in your opinion?

[Ariel Helwani]

Oh, there's definitely a chance. And he's another one of those guys that very few dislike. He is just absolutely beloved. We met him when he was, I think 20 years old. In 2012 he took a short notice fight against Dustin poirier at UFC143 and it's amazing that he's still around. Not only still around, but fighting for belts, what, 12 years later. It's unbelievable. And to your point, when he lost to Volk in that third fight, it was very one sided. And I thought, yeah, this is probably it. This is probably the left turn and he'll maybe just have some fun fights and just kind of be on the roster. This is a guy who has been in a lot of fights, who has a lot of cage time, who has absorbed and dished out a lot of damage. And so everything was there for the fall off the cliff. All he has done since then is win and against very good opponents, the likes of Calvin Kader, the likes of Arnold Allen, which blew me away because Arnold had been so good leading up to that point. And he takes a fight against Justin Gaethje at £155 in April, which a lot of people, including myself said was a mistake for two reasons. A, he was the number one contender at 45. Why are you fighting for some fictitious WWE hardcore title esque belt known as the BMF title, which means nothing. What is the point of all this? And B, the last time we saw him at 55 was against Dustin Poirier back in 2019 in Atlanta and he was, you know, severely out muscled. He was the smaller guy. He was moving up to 55 and it was one sided traffic the entire way. He completely dominated Gaethje in a five round fight and not only that, produced one of the greatest moments in UFC history when he pointed to the ground and knocked him out cold with a second left. And so now here he is moving back to 45 on an incredible run, his confidence at an all time high. You could tell he just has sort of that like, I've been here, nothing you say bothers me, nothing you say gets under my skin. And he's been giving it back to Ilya. Ilya said Ilya laid out this challenge on my show to him. He said, fight is going to start, I'm going to walk to the middle of the cage, I'm going to point to the ground. You meet me there. I bet you won't. And Max just said, you're just copying me. There's nothing cool about that. You're being a copycat, just like you copy McGregor. And that was the perfect answer. And so I feel like a lot of fans are now saying like, yeah, you are copying him. That's pretty whack. As opposed to initially people being like, oh snap, I can't believe he said that. So nothing Surprises me. Obviously, Topuria is the favorite. He hits really hard. I would say Max hasn't fought anyone quite like Topuria in this current run, but this, to me, feels like a 5050 fight. I have no idea what is going to happen because, by the way, the detractors want to take away from Topuria, including Max, who has said this as recently as Thursday, you beat Calvin Kader to get a title shot. And then you beat an Alex Volkanovski, who was damaged goods, who took a fight on short notice and got knocked out and came back too soon. You haven't done anything to earn this. And so we'll find out on Saturday if he's truly for real.

[Bill Simmons]

Topori is minus 265. I had another. I had a dopey NBA question. Who is the NBA equivalent of Max Holloway?

[Ariel Helwani]

Ooh, NBA equivalent of Max Holloway.

[Bill Simmons]

Is it Jimmy Butler? Well, maybe it's not, because maybe Jimmy Butler's career might be headed the wrong way.

[Ariel Helwani]

I like the Jimmy Butler comparison for this reason. Jimmy's cool, you know, like, he's got his thing. He's got the coffee thing. People dig his vibe. The reason it doesn't work is because he's not a champion. So everything. He's never been a champion, and Max was a champion. So there's a lot of similarities there. But what people love about Max so much is that he's cool. It's all very effortless. He's Hawaiian, he's chill, he's laid back, he does his thing. He doesn't back down from a fight. And he just kind of like walks the walk and talks the talk. So I'm trying to think of a.

[Bill Simmons]

Guy that sounds a little more like Tim Duncan.

[Ariel Helwani]

Nah, but Duncan wasn't cool.

[Bill Simmons]

Tim Duncan was better. Yeah, no, you're right. Well, Duncan was. He was.

[Ariel Helwani]

He was not cool.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, even keeled.

[Ariel Helwani]

Oh, yeah. But I mean, like, cool like he's got swag. You know what I mean? Like, cool in the sense that people want to be like him. This is a bad example, but I was just. The name Al Horford came to mind, if only because everyone likes Al, it seems like, and respects him. The other name that came to mind was Kevin Garnett, in that I feel like a lot of people respected him. He talked some smack, as did Max Holloway. And it felt to me like KG was always just kind of effortlessly cool, you know?

[Bill Simmons]

That's a good one. Because he won a championship.

[Ariel Helwani]

Yeah. And he won a championship, so. Man, I'm gonna. I'm gonna. It's definitely not Paul Pierce because he is not cool. I'm kidding.

[Bill Simmons]

How dare you? How dare you. Shemaev versus Whitaker, middleweights. Only three fights in the last three years for Chimaev, who was one of the many this. This decade who was like, could he be the next McGregor? And it feels like he missed his window for super duper stardom. So where is he now? Where is he in the landscape?

[Ariel Helwani]

You want my hot take on this?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ariel Helwani]

There's a clip online. 2020. I'm doing a show with Daniel Cormier, D.C. and Helwani, May it rest in peace. And Hamza bursts onto the scene. Fight island in Abu Dhabi during the pandemic. And he wins two fights in the span of 10 days. And then he comes back in September and he wins again in a higher weight class. 185. And after that third fight, I said, if Khamzat Chimaev is not a UFC champion by the end of 2021, something has gone horribly wrong. I would have bet my life that he would have been UFC champion well before that. Guess what? Something has gone horribly wrong. He has not lived up to the hype for various reasons. Number one, no fault of his own. He got really, really sick with COVID and actually retired briefly and said he was done trying to battle this. He was convinced not to retire by no less than Ramzan Kadyrov, the Chechen dictator, which makes his presence at times a little bit uncomfortable. Comes back and yes, it's been fine. He's won fights. The level of opposition has. Has gotten tougher. But the hot take is he has lost that intimidation factor. He has lost that aura that we're talking about with Alex Pera. He has lost that.

[Bill Simmons]

And when I see, you know who agrees with you?

[Ariel Helwani]

Ben Simmons.

[Bill Simmons]

Great Ben Simmons.

[Ariel Helwani]

My son, Robert Whitaker is an underdog. I think he's like a plus 260, 70, something like that. Yeah, I love Whitaker. Via decision. Whitaker has switched on right now. His headspace is in an amazing spot. He took a short notice fight against Ikram Aliskerov back in June. He was supposed to fight Khamzat. Khamzat pulls out Aliskerov. Everyone was saying, ah, this could be the guy. He could be a boogeyman. He could catch him. He smoked him. And I just think he is not intimidated. He is not bothered. And what is Khamzat going to do? Is he going to outwrestle Rob? I don't think so. Is he going to outstrike Rob? Absolutely not. Robert Whitaker has been Sparring with jayopetaia, in case you are unfamiliar with him, the best cruiserweight in the world, in the world of boxing, who is an unbelievable talent out of that region, Oceania as well, who's a beast and the hardest puncher arguably in the sport right now. He just scored a knockout a couple of weeks ago in Saudi Arabia. Whitaker is to me, when I see him, I see his physique, I see what he's been doing and saying. I like Whitaker via decision or maybe a stoppage. I'm not, I'm not buying that Khamzat gets by him. Khamzat isn't fighting enough. He fights once a year. He's got some mysterious travel issue where he can't fight outside of the Middle east right now. It's a huge problem. Even if he does win this fight, I don't know what they do with him because honestly, if he can't fight in the United States, how can he fight for a belt? Now, if not to get political here, but if 45 becomes 47, if you get what I'm saying, that may help the UFC because he certainly helped them with some travel issues back in the day, but otherwise I don't know what they do with him if he wins.

[Bill Simmons]

The Simmons family agrees with you. This feels. It feels like the odds are out of whack for this one. As you know, the two things I hate the most in combat sports, UFC and boxing, are not fighting enough. And then the guy who starts hitting like his mid, late 30s and got knocked out once or twice, that's always like, it's never headed the right way after that. But in this case, like he's just, you're not fighting enough. And it does seem like he's had some physical toll with like, I think how many times did he have, Covid? At least twice. Right. But one time it was really bad.

[Ariel Helwani]

Like he was coughing up blood and stuff. Yeah, yeah. And I don't know, just there's, you know, he had that fight last year against Kamaru Usman on relative short notice and I wasn't blown away. And it was a fight that if it went five rounds, I thought Usman was going to win. By the way, worth noting, this fight and part of the reason why I like Whitaker via decision is this fight's a five round co main event. Whitaker has fought in five round fights all day. Khamzat hasn't. Whitaker has gas tank for days. Khamzat doesn't. We've seen him slow down against Usman. We've Seen him slow down against Gilbert Burns. Whitaker never slows down. Like, he can literally go for days. And so if this goes into four or five, I just don't see how Khamzat gets it done.

[Bill Simmons]

So if you're betting him, you're almost better off. Knockout in the first couple rounds versus winning a decision 100%.

[Ariel Helwani]

And I just don't. Is he going to take Robert down and ground impound him? Like, Rob's a vet, man, I just don't see it happening.

[Bill Simmons]

There's two other fights in the main event. Megamedov is fighting. This is a quote from my son, Ben.

[Ariel Helwani]

Oh, okay.

[Bill Simmons]

He's what the UFC casuals want to watch. Flashy spinning kicks, stand up fighter. I'm not sold on him.

[Ariel Helwani]

Wow, you're talking about Shahra Bullet here. He's got an incredible look to him. He's the pirate, he's the guy who has the glass eye and he looks the part. But to your son's point, has fought only sort of like a certain level of competition. He is fighting a great striker kickboxer named Armin Petrosian. So this will be an interesting test, but it's still not quite like higher caliber. I don't know if this is the referendum on him that some are thinking it is, but I could see what your son is saying. I could see what Ben is saying. I could see it. I don't, you know what it is?

[Bill Simmons]

My son feels burned by Sean O'Malley is really what it like. That was like his popping his cherry for don't trust fighters. Like this moment. Yeah, the cool, the mystique, the. Oh my God, like, look at these little 6 second TikTok clips of some movie date. And he just fell for it.

[Ariel Helwani]

I mean, he shouldn't have fallen. I mean, that was a tough matchup for him and Sean did fine. But in the end, you know, Murab wins. This isn't the fight that, you know, Shah Bullet will get exposed. I think it's actually going to be a tremendous fight because of their styles. But yes, that is sort of like the hipster take right there where the casuals will be like, this is the guy. And the knowledgeable ones will be like, nah, this isn't the guy. He's going to get figured out. The other thing is, by the way, he's another guy who has a bit of a ceiling on him because he has an issue with his eye. His eye is completely not working. He can't fight. It appears in the United States, so.

[Bill Simmons]

Jesus.

[Ariel Helwani]

Because no commission is Going to sanction that? That's what we're being told now. Maybe he gets it figured out, but that's another guy who could only fight in these Middle Eastern shows. Riyadh, Abu Dhabi. So bit of a weird one.

[Bill Simmons]

You like the other fight or no. Murphy.

[Ariel Helwani]

Oh, I love that. I mean, LaRone Murphy is one of the most amazing stories, and if this guy can go on a run, he can be a huge superstar. He was walking outside of a barber shop one day and literally got shot in the face, and the bullet went through his cheek and out the other side, which is just, like, mind blowing. So his nickname is the Miracle lerone. The Miracle Murphy, representing the uk, has looked very good in the ufc. Looked really good in his last fight, which is a nice test for him against Dan Ige, who you'll recall, took that fight on like four days. No, sorry, four hours notice.

[Bill Simmons]

Four hours notice, yeah.

[Ariel Helwani]

Yeah. Against Diego Lopez back in June when he replaced Brian Ortega. Fought valiantly, but, like, you know, really tough test. This is a nice step up for Murphy, and I don't. I don't know what the odds are, to be honest.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't look at minus 260 for Murphy.

[Ariel Helwani]

For Murphy, yes.

[Bill Simmons]

My son is convinced that they're mad that Ige made the UFC look bad because he took a fight on four hours notice, so now they're just setting him up to get demolished. It's a conspiracy take from my hipster UFC son.

[Ariel Helwani]

Okay, I love Ben, but that one doesn't make any sense because he actually helped the ufc.

[Bill Simmons]

That's what I told him.

[Ariel Helwani]

Like he actually did it.

[Bill Simmons]

He did the massality. I can't help you with the UFC hipster teenagers. That's his conspiracy theory.

[Ariel Helwani]

He did them a solid. If anything, they should reward him and love him. That's nice. Give him someone like Lauren Murphy because he is so good. But I agree with the lines. Lauren should be the favorite.

[Bill Simmons]

You did boxing recently, by the way. I Forgot to mention, UFC 308 is. Is an earlier card. It's. I think it comes on 11:00am PT, which is 2:00pm yeah, the fucking best. I love when that happens. You've done some boxing recently. Didn't you just do an awesome fight?

[Ariel Helwani]

Yes, I was at the Anthony Joshua Daniel Dubois fight at home.

[Bill Simmons]

Holy shit.

[Ariel Helwani]

97,000 people.

[Bill Simmons]

AJ's my kryptonite for betting. I bet against him because he was my least favorite fighter. I bet against him, bet against him. He won. He won, he won. And then finally I was like, all right, fine, you got Me, I'll throw you in a parlay. And then of course he gets absolutely demolished by Dubois.

[Ariel Helwani]

Demolished, Demolished. Man, what a. I've never been to Wembley and there was legit 97,000 people. It is so fun being in the UK for a big fight because the way in which they treat boxing is so like their main sports talk radio channel there is called talk sport. It's only football, as in soccer and boxing that they talk about. So like you're in a taxi midday and they're talking about like mid level boxing. You would never get any radio station here in America talking about boxing or MMA midday.

[Bill Simmons]

Right?

[Ariel Helwani]

There's just too much going on. So it's such a big deal. And AJ was on such a roll and he was trying to become heavyweight champion again for the third time. And here's Daniel Dubois, who's very awkward and shy and was a complete afterthought in the buildup. A fellow Brit and he just absolutely starched him well.

[Bill Simmons]

He'd never fought like that before. I mean, that was.

[Ariel Helwani]

He was building, building, building.

[Bill Simmons]

But not like that was almost.

[Ariel Helwani]

Doug.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that was not quite. Not quite, but insane. It was. Come on.

[Ariel Helwani]

It was a big freaking deal. But because of course, like AJ has been caught before, so we've seen him crumble, but the whole narrative was AJ is going to win this fight and then he's going to get the winner of fury USYK on December 21, and then it's going to be one of the great, you know, comeback stories in boxing history. And it could still happen that we get Fury Joshua. That's the biggest fights in history.

[Bill Simmons]

It's tainted now. Both of those guys are at different points of their career. There' guy. So my favorite, as I told you, is Pereira for ufc. Bacoli is my favorite boxer in a while.

[Ariel Helwani]

Did you go to that card, the one in la?

[Bill Simmons]

I'm so mad. I didn't. I just. It was a complete fuck up. I should have gone. And now he's hit that point that boxers really hit where I just don't think anyone wants to fight him. There's no win. The guy's basically George Foreman in 2024.

[Ariel Helwani]

He's a great story too.

[Bill Simmons]

And I don't know how it goes with him, but that's to me, the number one fighter I want to watch.

[Ariel Helwani]

Wow, that's high praise.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I thought he was unbelievable. He is so scary. And he's one of those rare boxers that you watch and you're like, I don't know what you do. He's just coming forward and he does the 70s foreman thing and he just overpowers everybody. So I don't even know really what the answer is. I'm sure if he fought Usyk, I'm sure Usyk would probably figure it out.

[Ariel Helwani]

Yeah, I mean, he's not quite there yet. The fight that I suggested for him next was Joseph Parker, who's an amazing story in his own right. Yeah. And he's been on an incredible run. He's coming off a very impressive win over Zhilei Zhang. And he's just kind of the odd man out. So we're getting Fury Usyk, Dubois out there. Some people would like to see Fury USYK fight Dubois next. Like me, if the winner of that fight, other people want to see Dubois AJ2. I think that's absurd. Why should Dubois have to do that again? And then there's, there's Joseph Parker and there's Martin Buccoli, who in it was a BMO field where the LAFC team plays. He beat Jared Anderson, who was supposed to be like the next great American heavyweight. Destroyed him, destroyed him. Just absolutely starched him.

[Bill Simmons]

But also the kind of fight that doesn't happen anymore. But now that all this weird money has come into boxing, you have somebody like Anderson, like, all right, how much are you paying me? I'll fight Bacoli. And then it's like, no, don't fight this guy. This is a disaster.

[Ariel Helwani]

That's literally what happened, like to a T. There's Turkey Al Sheikh, who's the head of the operation over there in Saudi Arabia, who's making all these fights happen. It's great for boxing fans because it's very UFC esque in that we're seeing the best fights of the world.

[Jacko]

Totally.

[Ariel Helwani]

He offered Jared a boatload of money. He made him an ambassador. Bob Aram, who's his promoter, Anderson's promoter for Top Rank, said, don't take this fight. And afterwards said, this was stupid and we would have never booked this fight if you were fighting for us on this night. He wasn't. It was a turkey fight. And so Turkey, as in Turkey Al Shaykh, not the country Turkey. And look what happened. So now Jared Anderson takes a step back. I will say this, though. Look at MMA fighters and look at some of the most popular MMA fighters. They all have losses. Some of the most popular have double digit losses. And I hope that boxing fans and boxing pundits look at that and stop putting so much emphasis on the O and just are so quick to write people off when they Suffer a loss. Because when you do that, you are encouraging them to not fight the best. Ultimately, what we want as fight fans is for the best, to fight the best. And on this night, I give Jared credit. You fought one of the best. You lost. Dust yourself off, get back out there. Give me that any day. Over another fight against the guy who's 8 and 11, and you beat him in six rounds.

[Bill Simmons]

The problem is that was almost like a PTSD kind of knockout. Like, he got absolutely eviscerated. That's a tough one to come back from. Whereas, like, Joshua could be like, I took Dubois lightly. I didn't realize he had that in him. This was like an absolute demolition. I just worry sometimes with boxers versus ufc, it seems like you can get knocked out and just come back. And in boxing, like, you have the wrong knockout. You're just not the same after. Like, think about Pacquiao.

[Jacko]

No, no.

[Bill Simmons]

The last time Pacquiao got knocked out by Marquez, that was it. Like, he was never the same after that, you know? So true.

[Ariel Helwani]

But that's older. He was older. And also to your point, in mma, you can use other tools to win a fight, right? So let's say you're not. You're not feeling good about your striking next time out, you use your wrestling and jiu jitsu. But we saw it with Volkanovski. Volkanovski was never getting hit. He got knocked out by Islam. He comes back four months later, and he gets knocked out by Topuria. So it happens, especially with the older guys in MMA, too.

[Bill Simmons]

Ariel, great to see you.

[Ariel Helwani]

So great to see you.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm glad we got to talk UFC.

[Ariel Helwani]

I'm glad we're friends. Thank you so much on crown.com. thank you. I appreciate it. It means keep a spot for Ben.

[Bill Simmons]

Simmons in, like, five years, anytime.

[Ariel Helwani]

And don't worry, you don't have to mention first place Buffalo Bills. It's no big deal. No interceptions. Josh Allen. It's. We don't have to talk about that. We can save that for the next time. It's not.

[Bill Simmons]

I. I have too much respect for you to pump up the Bills. To pump up the Bills in October.

[Ariel Helwani]

Listen, we're doing okay. We. Listen, we don't want any pumping up. We're good. We're good. Just leave us alone.

[Bill Simmons]

Stay under the radar.

[Ariel Helwani]

That's where you want to be in January. No. Well, not you. Not the Patriots, but we'll see everyone else.

[Bill Simmons]

You will definitely not see the Patriots in January. They'll be watching you in January. Good to see you thank you.

[Ariel Helwani]

Thank you.

[Bill Simmons]

This episode is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Seeing a band or your favorite sports team in person is great, but it could be even better with the Chase Sapphire Reserve Card. It can help turn every moment into an unforgettable experience with early access tickets to concerts and sporting events and access to some of the best seats in the house. You'll also earn three times the points on travel and dining purchases. Find your next experience with Chase Sapphire Reserve. Learn [e-mail] Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan, Chase bank and a member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply. This episode is brought to you by Cintas. In sports, you're always thinking of that next play. It's the same with business. Cintas can help you stay a step ahead. Cintas dedicated service reps make sure your team has what they need when they need it. Cintas has workwear for almost any job imaginable, and they deliver fresh uniforms back to your business every week. Cintas also delivers restroom products and cleaning supplies, and they even provide first aid supplies, safety training and AEDs, as well as inspecting and testing your fire protection systems. Visit cintas.com and get ready for the work day. All right, we're taping this on a Wednesday. I haven't been sick in I think three years and over the weekend I started to feel a little under the weather and then full blown by Monday night into Tuesday. I was in bed all day and I think it's because the Yankees are in the World Series and I knew I had to have jack on. Baseball's just been ruined for me. My body's literally rejecting a Yankees World Series appearance. I know you're about as delighted. You're like a pig in shit. I can't stand it.

[Jacko]

It's true. This only makes me happier. Not that I would ever wish you to be ill, but the fact that nature or the gods or whomever is not only putting the Yankees in the World Series, but has rendered you incapacitated, that just adds sweetness to me. Let me tell you. That just sweetens the pot.

[Bill Simmons]

That's what's happened. It really makes me mad. I don't like that the Yankee fans. I talked about it on Sunday night how the Yankee fans had their chest puffed out again and then all the Yankee fans were upset that I said that because it was just like the Celtics, where the Celtics had an easy road to the title. The difference was the Celtics were a historically great regular season team. You guys, you complained about this team for Four and a half months. You were so mad. You hated this team, you hated the manager, you hated the gm. And now you're wearing Yankees paraphernalia. And it just bothers me.

[Jacko]

Jacko, all is forgiven. Victory is the ultimate bomb for everything that fixes everything. So yes, all my dislike of. I didn't hate the team per se, I hated the organization, I hated the ownership, the general manager and the manager. That still holds true. It should not have been a 15 year drought. So all that I stand by. But listen, they made a run and your notion of, well, they played cupcakes or whatever, yeah, they didn't have to face the Astros, they didn't have to face a legendary Red Sox team or any other juggernaut. But you're not giving your ring back because you played the Indiana Pacers and the number five seed Dallas Mavericks. You play who's on the schedule, that's all you can do is play who's on the schedule. And the Yankees stepped up to the plate and they won. And Cleveland, you know, Cleveland was a number two seed in the American League. It's not like they were a six seed. They were number two. They had a legendary bullpen. They had an all time closer. People were comparing the closer to Mariano Rivera. And now we're supposed to apologize for beating that team. I'm not going to do it. I'm not apologizing.

[Bill Simmons]

That's true. That's your one good part of your case is that you ruined the closer. They went into the playoffs thinking that they had one of the best closers of the generation. And by the end of it, he was an absolute shell. He was like our friend Chip Kane in college after, after three bar visits.

[Jacko]

Just being carried out this class. I'm sure he's a fine guy, but when you're relegated to going on Instagram and showing your collection of trophies and awards and Closer of the month, I mean, that was the most. That was the saddest thing I've ever seen. If I was a Guardians fan, I wouldn't show my face in public again. I would have burned my class A jersey. I mean, you cannot go on Instagram and say, well, sure, the Yankees lit me up, but look at all these. Look at my Closer of the Month award from June. I mean, that was the most ridiculous thing I've ever. I don't mean to kick Cleveland fans while they're down. They were a fine, spunky team, but that was, that was abject misery right there. That was the worst thing I've ever seen.

[Bill Simmons]

On the other hand, it epitomized the trophy generation.

[Jacko]

He's like, yeah, that's true.

[Bill Simmons]

We might not have made it to the World Series, but here's some of the trophies I collected over the last couple of years. Check out how nice these are.

[Jacko]

Enjoy that Caribbean Baseball League final ring or whatever that he was flashing. Yeah, absolutely. No question.

[Bill Simmons]

I think you owe some apologies before we keep going, because these people are going to be in your life for the rest of the decade, at least. Now, Aaron Boone, you weren't a fan of the strategic thinking. You weren't a fan of the press conferences. He was somebody who had been in your life. Unlike when I had second row Joe. Second row Joe got thrown into a Celtic season. Right. Right before the season just ripped in. He was our fourth assistant and he was overwhelmed that the only excuse for him through the year was like, all right, this was kind of an unfair spot for this guy. And then, you know, he rebounded. Year two, you've had a long, long, long look at Aaron Boone. So what happened? Like a long one. What happened? Is he a good manager now or is this just. No, this just went well for two months.

[Jacko]

It just went well. It went well for a couple weeks. Let's not go crazy yet. It's gone well for a couple weeks. I mean, yes, I dislike him as much as anybody, any Yankee fan, and believe me, I'm not alone in Yankee fandom. And my non love, let's for Aaron Boone, but I gotta give credit where credit is due. I mean, he did a wonderful job with the bullpen. I don't have any criticisms of anything he did. And the modern manager, that's all you have to do, is you have to manage the bullpen. And so far, knock on wood. And this will come back to bite me in the ass, I'm sure, in horrible, egregious fashion. But for so far, he's done a great job with the bullpen. The one quibble I would maybe have is they should have moved Stanton to the four hole a lot sooner and gotten Austin Wells out of there or Jazz Chisholm out of there. But I'm not sure Boone gets to make those decisions. That's a. That's a front office Cashman algorithm thing. So I can't criticize Boone as much as I dislike him. I'd still dislike the press conferences. I dislike his general demeanor. I dislike a lot about him. But he's. He's had a good couple of weeks and hopefully it continues for another week and a half or more. So that's all I can ask for at this point. But I'm not. I'm not suddenly in love. I'm not buying a Boone jersey. I have not done a 180. It's just, just. We'll see how it goes here. We'll see how it goes. We're like a divorced couple giving it another chance.

[Bill Simmons]

You sound like the Republicans talk about Trump right before the election. Well, you know, he's had a good couple weeks. We'll see how it goes.

[Jacko]

I wish. No, the Republicans are wholeheartedly in love, unfortunately, with Trump. So I wish that was the case that they were more reticent. Let's say, let's say their relationship, my relationship with Boone. I wish their relationship with Trump was similar, but unfortunately it's over heels in love. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So can you explain the Luke Weaver thing to me? This was a guy that bounced around. I looked at his stats. They're shockingly bad career wise. He was shockingly.

[Jacko]

No questions.

[Bill Simmons]

Last year. I think he had like a 6, 6, 7 era. Yeah. Gave up like 25 more hits than innings pitched and just seemed like a runner mill dude. As you know, I'm in that AL keeper league. He was not somebody people were scampering to get even by like late July, although you could feel like somebody was going to get innings with the Yankees bullpen, and it was like, who's it going to be? And then it's inexplicably became him. And he now pitches every game and he's lights out. So what happened?

[Jacko]

Well, he. I mean, he did give up a home, you know, a big home run in game three that almost murdered me. But, yes, he has been very good. It's amazing how much confidence I have in him given everything you just said, which is accurate. I mean, I suffered through the Clay Holmes experience as the closer, as we, as all Yankee fans did, and he was brutal. Brutal. And that was another classic boon and management where they would not. They were so stubborn, they wouldn't say, no, this is a mistake. We have to switch it till, like, it became glaringly clear to everybody, like, you had to get Clay Holmes out of there. So Luke Weaver kind of became the guy by default. And I don't know what it is. He's caught lightning in a bottle or some magic or. I'm not sure what it is, but he seemed. Yeah, not literally in a bottle. Take it easy, because I saw your text about am I his steroid dealer or whatever? Like, guy weighs 150 pounds. Give me a break.

[Bill Simmons]

So anytime Anyone on either of our teams inexplicably starts doing well, we have to get off our round of HGH jokes. But yeah, he is £150, of course.

[Jacko]

But I don't know. So I don't know if it's just that the league hasn't seen him. He's figured something out, you know, he's developed some magical pitch. I'm not sure what it is, but the thing is, like, the guy doesn't seem to shrink from the moment. He seem confident, right? So that's what you like to see. Like he doesn't. He's got the intestinal fortitude for it, you know, so knock on wood. And this is all kind of come. These jinxes you're working are magical. This is going to come bite me in the ass too. But he's been lights out. And miraculously, the aforementioned Clay Holmes, who was brutal, he's been good in the playoffs, except for the other day when he gave up his classic two run home run to tie the game. But otherwise he's been miraculous in this postseason too. So is the run of the, of the bullpen guys that you don't count on, is that going to, that have come up big, is that going to continue? I don't know, but I hope so. Like, maybe it's one of these things where you just, you know, they get on a hot streak and they, they carry it through. I don't know, we'll see it.

[Bill Simmons]

It does happen. It is a recipe for unexpected baseball playoff success where you just have one reliever, two reliever who just all of a sudden become light, lights out. There's no exclamation for it.

[Jacko]

You know, there was some criticism of boot. I saw in some corners that they brought in Weaver, I think in game two when they had a fairly good lead or try to get a five out save, and he did. And then the next day he gave up the home run and they're like, well, he's overworked and they've seen him too much. I can't kill Boone for that. You got, when you're trying to get to a World Series, you got to go for the jugular and you got to put your best guy in there. So I'm not going to kill him for that. And you know, did the Guardians see him too much? I don't know. They couldn't solve him after that. They had the, they had the one game, three against them and he was lights out after that. So, yeah, I mean, yeah, let's hope he keeps it Up.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I've seen enough. I think he's lights out. I mean, you might as well call him Rivera Jr.

[Jacko]

Okay, good try. Thanks. Thanks, buddy.

[Bill Simmons]

Good job. I full confidence in him because I think I'm going to bet on the Yankees just as a complete spite bet.

[Jacko]

Perfect. Perfect.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I've been thinking about that. But as you know, I was telling you and J.J. that my dream was for you to get to the World Series, for the chest to be puffed out again, for the Yankee hats and the shirts and the jerseys to all come out and to be like, here we go. Just like the 70s. We're going to beat these guys just like we did almost 50 years ago. And then, and then the Dodgers just whip your asses, steamroller. And then you just left a shell of yourselves. That's my dream.

[Jacko]

See, here's. That's a. That's fair. I would feel the same if it was. The shoe was on the other foot and it was the Red Sox. That's totally fair. But here's the thing. I'm not going to be a shell because this is, this is what it's come to. And this is maybe, maybe makes me a shell going into it. It's been 15 years since the Yankees have been in a World Series, so I, I'm like happy to be in the World Series. It's crazy that that's what I have to say as a Yankees fan, but that's what it's come to.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, I think winning a win, just hearing that is a win. I'm sorry.

[Jacko]

I think winning. I know. I think winning the pennant was a successful season for them. And the Dodgers have, you know, a big, huge payroll team. Not like the scrappy Yankees with Austin Wells and Anthony Volpe and guys that.

[Bill Simmons]

Came up through the system.

[Jacko]

You know, the Yankees can't go buy players like. Can't go buy players like the, you know, they don't have the budget of the Dodgers, you know, with Yamamoto 300 million and Ohtani, you know, a billion or whatever his soundtrack is. So, you know, the angst are just there and they'll try to do the best against this LA juggernaut, you know.

[Bill Simmons]

Can you explain the body switching Judge Stanton thing with the regular season into the playoffs? Why that happens? Because Judge is one of the worst postseason stars probably in the modern era compared to what his regular seasons are. And at this point, you probably trust Stanton in a big spot more than Judge, which is insane. Stanton has made an all star team in six years.

[Jacko]

Completely insane. It's completely insane. And Stanton is postseason. Stanton. I mean, I was talking to JJ yesterday, and, you know, they show these stats, which are a little hokey because Babe Ruth only played in World Series. There wasn't three playoff rounds. But Stanton has the same number of postseason home runs as Babe freaking Ruth. I mean, it's crazy. You know, I know it's inflated, obviously, with the stats, but anytime you're mentioned with Babe Ruth and home runs in the postseason, it's impressive, regardless of the additional rounds. So for, you know, Stanton is a pair, is a not. Apparently. He's a. He's a postseason guy. He comes through. And, you know, I've. I've been right there with everybody killing Stanton because of his contract, because he runs like he has not one, but two pianos on his back. He swings wildly. It strikes out. It's just everything. But he has been everything and more for them in the postseason. And not only the hitting and the home runs, but, like, the leadership after they won the alcs. He's like, this isn't a big deal. We're not done. We will want one more ring and that. You know, I think somebody. I forget who it was Volpe or somebody said, you know, Judge is the captain, but Stanton is like, Captain 1B. Like, he's a leader there, and they all look up to him and they love him, and, you know, he's been the guy that carried him. And Judge, who I love, I yield to no one in my love of Aaron Judge. But he has not showed up this postseason in two rounds. Now, he has been missing in action. He had a big home run in game three, I'll give him that. But other than that, he has been extremely, extremely quiet. And I am hopeful in my Yankee soul that he will wake up in the World Series. He's been dying to get there since, you know, that's the one piece that's missing for him. Now he's on the big stage. And, you know, Yankee icons, Yankee legends are made in the postseason. So now is his time to step up. Do I have confidence he will? No. But I hope he does. So I'm hopeful.

[Bill Simmons]

Stanton, 36 playoff games, 16 homers.

[Jacko]

Yeah. Incredible. It's very good. Yeah, absolutely.

[Bill Simmons]

Judge, 53 playoff games, 15 homers. He's batting a crisp.203 in the playoffs.311 on base. He struck out 79 times in 202 at bats. It feels worse.

[Jacko]

It does feel worse. It does feel worse. And that's the thing. Like, you know, the Yankees beat the Guardians in five games, and they beat the Royals and what was it, three games? Four games. And they haven't really played well, quite frankly. Yeah, you know, Soto is great. Stanton was great. Glabor has been great getting on base. And Anthony Rizzo. They should break his fingers more often in the regular season because he apparently bats better with two broken fingers. He's been good, but other than that, I mean, Judge has done nothing. Verdugo has done less than nothing. Jazz Chisholm has done less than. Less than nothing. They still can't get hits in big moments that would open the game up. So, you know, my blood pressure in this series was generally about 300 over 200 because they can't get a big hit in a big situation. You're never comfortable with anything because they can't get a lead. And then somehow they, you know, they can't run the bases to save their life. It's not a game unless they make at least one base running mistake. They're not good defensively. And yet here they are in the World Series. So I don't know, it's magic or the other team's ineptitude or whatever it is, but. But you know, I'll take it. Here we are. And I hope, you know, maybe they can flip the switch in the World Series and, you know, that's what they need. The bright lights and the big stage and guys like Judge step up to the plate metaphorically.

[Bill Simmons]

I really like where you are. I like where you are. Mentally. This is great. Yeah. Because you're not reverse jinxing. I don't. It feels like you don't trust this team. It feels like a guy who has his guard up because like deep down has his guard up a little bit.

[Jacko]

Why wouldn't I after 15 years? What in their history in 15 years would lead me to be like, yeah, we got this, and swagger around the room. I wish I could. As you know, I'm pessimistic by nature anyway. But this team for 15 years, they've come up small in big spots. So this has been an amazing surprise to get to the World Series. Like, I'm happy, I'm happier than I thought I would be. But I have. My older daughter's away in college. I have a 13 year old daughter and she came down the other night and was watching me watch the game and she was there when Soto hit the home run and watched me jump around my living room and fist pump and laughed at me. And then she went back upstairs and I texted her because I didn't want to wake her mother and I said, bridge, you got to come back downstairs. You got to watch the final three outs. You're the lucky charm. And she did. And then I fist pumped and jumped around the room, and she gave me a hug. She wasn't even born. Last time the Yankees went to a World Series, it was two years before she was born. And now she's old enough to be cognizant of what a lunatic her father is and joined him in his celebration. So it's like, you know, that was a nice moment for me. It was great. But I'm like, you know, you weren't even born the last time they went to a World Series. It's crazy to think of, because, you know, she's on the verge of going to high school. So given that history, why would I have a lot of swagger? Really, you know, I'd like to.

[Bill Simmons]

It sounds like this was your fault. You didn't incorporate your daughter enough. Daughters are good luck charms.

[Jacko]

I know. I tried. She has a lot of Yankee stuff, but, you know, she's more into Taylor Swift and.

[Bill Simmons]

Wait, so you're telling me a teenage girl isn't really clicking with baseball?

[Jacko]

Yeah. Shocker, isn't it? Yeah, Shockaroo. She's not that into it. She was into it the other night just for the joy. But. Yeah. Of joy that brought her father, but other than that, no, not so much.

[Bill Simmons]

It's funny reading the previews of the Series because your starting pitching is in better shape, right?

[Jacko]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Bill Simmons]

The Dodgers have had a bunch of injuries, and they basically have three starters and they just have their fingers crossed and they're mixing and matching, and sometimes the breaks can help with the bullpen, but just in general, like, I don't even know what that means anymore because nobody throws seven, eight innings. Just in general. You watch these, and part of me just doesn't like baseball as much. Even though they've done a lot of good stuff with the pitch clock and the playoff. Baseball is as fun as ever. But I don't know if we're both old now. I think we've. I've aged out of the 18-54 CB, the demo where the advertisers care about you. I've now moved into the Chicago Fire Chicago PD demo. And you're coming in July, Right? The thing I think that makes me the maddest about baseball, and it's nobody's fault because they have better, you know, better ways to understand pitcher injuries and arm stuff. I just really miss watching starters go deep into games. Me, too. And just Be like, oh man, he's got to get through this lineup one more time and set up the eighth night innings. It's just gone now. Nobody like literally nobody has it and it's this mix match of just bullpen changes and guys coming in and righty lefty stuff. And I just don't like it as much.

[Jacko]

I mean it's nuts when you, when you look at stats now or they, they reference somebody who pitched like you know, eight or nine innings in a postseason game, you know, Nolan Ryan or somebody, you know, think of some great, you know, Randy Johnson or somebody.

[Bill Simmons]

We watched that Jack Morris game together, right? Yes, exactly seven. When he just pitched the whole game and it was fucking put the whole team on his back.

[Jacko]

And now when you look at a stat like that, you might as well be talking about like Mordecai Three Finger Brown in like 1918, you know, like it's like such an ancient stat, like this archaic, ancient stat. Analytics has ruined the game and that's the part that they've ruined the most. I'm so happy that base, I mean the pitch clock has really made a difference. That the game is so much more watchable now without, with the pitch clock and with the shift being banned. Like thank God they got the analytics away from that. Not the stepping out of the, out of the box, but the shift was a total analytics thing. But the one analytics thing is the pitching. And like, you know, the notion of you would ever have a, you know, a bullpen game, you know, Earl Weaver or Casey Stengel would have keeled over the notion of that. You know, Billy Martin would have keeled over at the notion of that because he liked to run starters into the ground. But it's such a different game now. And you're right, I do miss that. And like, you know, back when you guys had Pedro, you're like, well Pedro, we're good with Pedro for seven innings. And then we get into the bullpen, you know, where the Yankees, you know, we have David cone, we'll get, we'll get six or six out of cone and then we're going to go to Romero Mendoza and then we're going to go to Mariano and then we're going to go to wetland in 96. So it was like the Yankees kind of shortened games to a six inning game, but now starters, it's like a four inning game and they're like, oh, Radon went four and two thirds. It's a good start. Like what?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, San Diego, we got 14 outs, right?

[Jacko]

The old days they would have like left him out of the building. And now it's a big thing. It's. It's crazy how much that's changed. No doubt.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that's why. So the Dodgers, like, I don't feel like it's as big of a deal that they have like this ravaged starting rotation, whereas 20 years ago you'd be like, oh, they're fucked. They only have three pitchers.

[Jacko]

Right. And like the Yankees would, like. The one advantage the Yankees have is their starters are better on paper. But you're right, like, that's not that much of an advantage anymore because one, the bullpens find a way to make it work if you're the Dodgers, and two, the starters don't go as deep. So regardless, you know, Cole's not going to pitch. You know, eight inning, one hit, shutout game. You know, they won't leave him in that long because they're like, well, we got to have him fresh for game four. You know, they show. I saw some stat the other day of the late Fernando Valenzuela. Rest in peace. He just died. He had like 149 pitch game they talked about in 1981 in the World Series. Now, guys now don't pitch 149 pitches in three games, let alone in one game, you know.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, there was this famous Louis Tian died too recently who was. Yeah, you know, the first, the first like star pitcher. I can remember when I started watching baseball and he had some game against Jim Palmer in 1975 where they both just pitched complete game, 10 inning games I saw. It's just like there's a zero percent chance we're ever seeing that again. But we would have said that in the 70s about some of those Cy Young and Mordecai Richter. All those stats from guys throwing 400 innings.

[Jacko]

Right, right. Yeah. All those old pitching stats, like Cy Young's wins are certainly untouchable, but like any complete game records or anything, those are never ever getting touched. Ever, ever.

[Bill Simmons]

So Juan Soto, great trade. You gave up a lot, but not enough to offset how awesome it is to have Juan Soto on your team. And he's at a good point in his career. And I was making fun of that long at bat on Sunday, but it was pretty cool, like watching. Yeah, whatever his OCD nodding thing that he does where he's like getting locked in. It's like, oh, this is fun. He almost looks like a bouncer at a bar ready to like kick somebody's ass. Do they have to keep him now? Like, what, what plays out with him.

[Jacko]

Well, I. They have. Well, yes, from my perspective, they have to keep him. And money would be no object. I mean, any amount of money he wants. Because Boris isn't going to let. I think he's happy with the Yankees. He seems to be. They love. But I don't think he's going to do a quote unquote, hometown discount. I know it's not his hometown, but I don't think he's going to give them a discount. So it's going to cost a lot of money. And the Yankees, Hal is a bean counter, so I would like him to stay very desperately, I would like them to resign him and at any cost. It's not my money, except it's my money when I go pay for games and pay $35 for a beer and $20 for a hot dog. But, yeah, I would like them to resign him. But two things worried me in that regard, and that House Steinbrenner was on the stage night when they handed him the trophy and sounded about as excited as somebody who gets a new computer at work, like, from their office and was like, oh, it's good. Yes, this is wonderful, this thing. It's like, how can we have an ounce of passion? Like just one heartbeat, anything.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, it's a trophy.

[Jacko]

Oh, it's heavy. Look at that. Oh, yeah, no passion whatsoever. I made a joke about it on Twitter. It was like, such a downer. He was like, honest to God, no feeling whatsoever. So that worries me. And what also worries me is that. But the Mets had a magical run this year, and, you know, or maybe a piece or two away and hasn't have an owner who. Where money is no object for him, and he's like, I'll throw Juan Soto a billion dollars. He doesn't have to leave New York. It's the same thing, just a different team. You're still in the big city in the bright lights. You know, I'm not sure Hal's going to pony up for that, you know, if it gets to be a bidding war. So I think they have to keep him. He's 25 years old. You can't make the argument of, oh, well, you know, he's going to be old and decrepit at the end of this contract, but. But, you know, you're going to get five to six to seven great years out of him. Presumably, at 25 years old, he's only getting better. And the guy's one of the best hitters in baseball and a lively player who brings life to the team. I mean, the team's not that different from what they had last year, not making the playoffs and now they're in the World Series. You got to look at him as a difference maker.

[Bill Simmons]

So just be. You pay Soto whatever he's going to get, and then it's Soto and Judge going forward.

[Jacko]

Yeah, I mean, as much, I mean, as much as I love Stanton's pro season performance, if you could find a way to shed yourself of some of that contract, that would save you money.

[Bill Simmons]

How many more years is that? That thing was like, it's like three.

[Jacko]

I believe I could. I could be wrong. So those three years are painful. But you know, he's, he's done great this postseason, so I'm not throwing him under the bus. Glabor Torres is going to be a free agent and they're probably not going to resign him. And he's been a postseason hero too, but that's going to save you some money. Rizzo clears the books. I don't think he's a fortune, but they save some money a little bit. So, you know, you go with an outfield of Soto and Judge and Dominguez going forward and Judge a little bit older.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, we're still excited about him.

[Jacko]

Well, I am. The Yankees don't seem to be because they don't want to play him ahead of Verdugo because Verdugo is better defensively. Dominguez was kind of a hack in the outfield when they brought him up late, but they waited forever to bring him up after he was healthy. They seemed down on him and the guy was like, he was great in a small sample last year and everybody got excited about him. But the Yankees brass doesn't seem very excited about him. So I don't know what that means for his future. But he's cheap. They like that. So he's under control. They like that. So he's a serviceable option to give you Soto and save some money there.

[Bill Simmons]

What's the Yankee fever situation in the Tri State area?

[Jacko]

Oh, humongous. This was like such an exhalation of relief. This was so like 15 years of pent up tension and anger and disappointment. I know, like for myself and every Yankee fan I see, like my aforementioned daughter had a cross country meet on Saturday and I'm sitting around waiting for them to run and there's a guy in a Yankee shirt and I'm like, hey, big game tonight. And we chatted up for like 10 minutes a complete stranger because he was wearing a Yankee shirt. So it's like that kind of magic. No, totally back. And I saw. I've seen a lot more like Yankees sweatshirts and jackets. As always happens, you know, I used to be living in Connecticut. I'm right on the borderline here. And it was always, you know, the last few years been a lot of Red Sox stuff. And the Red Sox stuff has been put away for the winter and the Yankee stuff has been brought out. So, yeah, definitely. There's a lot of peacocking going around in Connecticut, no question.

[Bill Simmons]

I wish we still had a good Red Sox team so we could have duked this out. And sadly, there's not decided not to have one anymore.

[Jacko]

That's too much for me. That's too much for me. I could barely survive this after 15 years. Maybe if the Yankees, you know, the Yankees win this one, hopefully knock on wood. Or make a, you know, make a serviceable effort in the World Series. And then maybe they're good again next year. Then maybe I'll. I'll think about the Red Sox, and I can take it because the Yankees will have had a little bit of success. So.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I was trying to think of the stages of when you go through this with a baseball team, you know? Cause like, when we're the. When we're. You're kids, it means the most, right? You're just irrational. Then in your 20s, it also is still irrational and crazy. 30s, you're a little older, but it's still irrational. But then we're at a stage now where it's really taxing to go through this for a month. Cause we're fucking old. It's like south was talking about that. It's like South. South needed, like, a vacation from the Mets being in three playoffs, three plus playoff rounds. Like, he needed to, like, regroup mentally and physically afterwards.

[Jacko]

Every day there's an off day. I'm like, oh, good, I can go to bed early. I need my rest. I need to rest up. And it's like, I'm not actually playing in these games, by the way. Like, I'm just sitting on my couch watching it, and I'm like, oh, God, that was a taxing game. I need to recover. You know, so it's true. It's like, you know, I'm the old guy going, why do they start these so late? You know, so that's me. And then it's like, you know, the Yankees game, when they won the other night, I was like. I was up till one in the morning. Thankfully, that was on a Saturday, but it was still like, oh, God, thank God, I got a couple days to recover from that.

[Bill Simmons]

So do you want to apologize to Cashmen or. That's never coming.

[Jacko]

Never ever. No, never. God, no. Ever. No. Nobody in the front office. I said on JJ's podcast last night, I said, you know, I'm not, I think the Yankees, like, I'm not sure they really like so much excelled this year as the rest of baseball maybe came back to them. Like, yeah, like there was no.

[Bill Simmons]

Certainly the American League, right?

[Jacko]

Yeah, there was no case. There was no hundred game winner. At least in the American League. I don't think The Dodgers won 100 games, did they? Or if they did, they just won a hundred ninety eight. So nobody won a hundred games, which is kind of crazy because usually in most years there's a team that will win 100 or 105 or something, you know, so not to have a hundred game winner, there was nobody. Like when you say, well, the Yankees didn't play anybody. And I, I will grant you that to some degree, but like, who in the American League was there that was like that they should have played. That would have made it tougher. Houston, yes, but I mean, Baltimore, Baltimore.

[Bill Simmons]

That was the big. They just, you know, gagged. But Baltimore was set up for them and I. Texas, Baltimore was a year from hell.

[Jacko]

Baltimore was the darling pick of everybody, though. And I'm not sure Baltimore ever really lived up to the hype. I mean, they, they had some bad injuries. They had some bad injuries, no question about it. But you know, I'm not sure. And this will come back to haunt me too. I'm just, I'm just throwing caution to the wind with these jinxes. I'm not sure their prospects really lived up to the hype. Like, you know, you're right. Rutchman and Carlson and these guys, like, you know, they had this, I saw this poll before the season started and baseball writers were like, oh, the Orioles are going to win the AL east, they're going to win the al. Who's the player you're most excited to see? It was like Rushman, like, nothing about Soto and like everything was Orioles, Orioles, Orioles. And I'm like, you know, they had a good season for them until the playoffs, but I mean, well, actually they didn't really have a good season. I mean, they're picked by everybody to win. They never were really a huge threat in the division and then they did nothing in the postseason. And all these prospects, you know, all these baseball prospectus guys, they love these prospects and we overrate everybody and everybody's the next Jeter or the next, you know, whoever. And it's like, I don't know, maybe they'll live up to the hype again. That could bite me in the ass too. And I'll be like dealing with the Orioles for the rest of my life. But I don't know, so far I'm not that impressed.

[Bill Simmons]

Like your guy Volpe.

[Jacko]

No offense, Mallory.

[Bill Simmons]

Your guy Volpe, what did he hit, like 230?

[Jacko]

Yeah, he's been, he's been good in the postseason. And I get, you know, he's good defensively. He won a Gold Glove last year. But I mean, again, you know, yeah, Volpe was the second coming of Jeter. And the Yankees couldn't go out and sign, you know, Machado or any other shortstop or infielder because, oh, Volpe, you know, he had the lane blocked for everybody. And he doesn't light the world on fire either. At all. Although he's been decent in the postseason. I'll. I'll not throw him under the bus either. But he, he is not, you know, he's not, he's not Jeter. He's not close.

[Bill Simmons]

These prospects fool's gold a lot of the time. The Red Sox have a bunch of them coming up that we're all super excited about. And my dad like, he watches the Worcester box scores and shit like that. Sure.

[Jacko]

The woo socks.

[Bill Simmons]

But we know it's like probably a 1 in 3 chance that. But one of them actually like really crushes and is awesome. You know, it's a lottery team. Baseball goes and then the pitchers. I don't know how you get excited about a minor league pitcher. No, remember that guy we drafted first? Yeah. His, his elbow came off. He's having triple Tommy John surgery.

[Jacko]

Remember we were in college and the Yankees had been, you know, the Stump Merrill years were mediocre and we were, I was fired up because they were 81 and 81 and they had the number one pick because they were so bad and they took, took Brian Taylor and Brian Taylor has got a 98 mile an hour curveball and you know, throws 120 or whatever. Not literally, but he was the greatest thing since sliced bread. And then he, you know, kicked around in the minors, got in a bar fight, blew out his arm and it was nothing. So it's like, you know, I was ready to go buy his jersey number in Jersey, waiting for him to get a number and then he's, you know, I don't know what he's doing now, but he's not Pitching for the Yankees. Never did. So, yeah, that's when those prospects are dying.

[Bill Simmons]

Chuck Laposta and I were trying to hunt down Phil Planter. Rookie cards.

[Jacko]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

I still have some in case, if you're interested, can send some your way. All right. So Yankees, Dodgers, who. Who do you hate the most than the Dodgers? Have you worked up some sports hate yet?

[Jacko]

No. And that will come, I'm sure, after the game. But, you know, I don't watch a lot of. I don't watch a ton of Dodgers games. I can't really think of anybody that I hate on the Dodgers.

[Bill Simmons]

You're going to hate.

[Jacko]

Oh, I'm sure.

[Bill Simmons]

Hey, Kiki Hernandez. Well, you'll hate his bets immediately.

[Jacko]

He's a postseason menace and a pest. I get that. He always has big postseason numbers. And I did tune in sporadically to some of the Mets, Dodgers, and he was always in the middle of something and he was always doing something. He's pesky. I can't hate Mookie Betts, who's a generational player that no team would ever let go from their team. So he's just phenomenal. Hall of Famer.

[Bill Simmons]

It's good that he's going to start and finish his career. The Dodgers.

[Jacko]

I don't really. There's nobody I hate. Ask me again. Ask me again in a couple days and I'm sure I'll have a litany of people that I hate, but nobody yet.

[Bill Simmons]

Before we go, I need your.

[Jacko]

And I frankly, let me just interject this and this will come back to bite me, too, because the Dodgers will probably steamroll them. But I like the history of playing the Dodgers. Like, there's a lot of history. Yankee, Dodgers, back to the Brooklyn days. And good for you. I like. I like the history. I like the history of it in the New York baseball thing and going back, you know, Jackie Robinson and Yogi Berra and Mickey Mantle and, you know, thinking of all the games and everything else. And, you know, I remember being a kid, I was 7 and 8 in 19, 77 and 78. So that's when I first became, you know, interested in baseball and a Yankee fan. So I remember those World Series to some degree. So I'm excited for this. I'm excited for this. Yankees, Mets, obviously, would have been interesting, but Yankees, Dodgers, I think is interesting from a historical perspective.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I was an only child like you, and I remember watching all of those games and Reggie's three home run game against the Dodgers felt like the most important thing that literally had ever happened. It just was so it was so incredible and unbelievable and I just.

[Jacko]

Just like. Judges 4, home run game will be this for the kids of this generation.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, that might happen. I know who you're going to hate are the celebrities sitting in the first few rows at the Dodger game. I think that those are the people, you know, you see, like Judd Apatow, Rob Reiner.

[Jacko]

We don't have Larry King there anymore. God rest his family.

[Bill Simmons]

No, he's coming. They're gonna. They embalmed him. He's gonna be in there.

[Jacko]

What about Mary? Is Mary Hart from Entertainment Tonight, is she still with us? Cause she used to sit next to Larry King. She's not still with us. Mary Hart. I don't.

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't. I haven't seen her in a game. I don't know. She's probably still with us, but maybe.

[Jacko]

They'Re saving her for the World Series. Yeah, she was always there. And like, Rob Lowe will be there, like in a Dodgers hat or something.

[Bill Simmons]

Jason Bateman.

[Jacko]

Yeah. Yeah, that's true. There'll be a lot of stars there. That's true. I won't care about that.

[Bill Simmons]

I'll tell you, this impossible ticket especially. Cause it's the Friday night, Saturday night here, it's like, sure. I think it's the single hardest ticket since I've lived in LA for anything. Because of all the New York fans. Because there's so many New York fans, Yankee fans, transplants that are in LA that want to go. So I don't think there's ever been a pricier ticket. It's. It's basically like $2,000 to get in the building.

[Jacko]

I know the Yankee, even the Yankee Stadium games, it's like a grand first standing room only ticket to like stand in the outfield. Yeah, it's nuts. Baseball has to love this because baseball, you know, they had Texas and the Diamondbacks last year.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Jacko]

You know, God, God bless them, no offense to them, but not exactly a marquee matchup to the national baseball fan. But, you know, Yankees, Dodgers, like I said, with the history and, you know, the uniforms and the, you know, New York and la, there's a lot to like about this from a casual fan.

[Bill Simmons]

Perspective, a history that you can also do the whole thing. Like, the only time you beat us was during the strike. Year didn't really count.

[Jacko]

Yeah, they beat him in 1955, the Dodgers. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But I'm saying, like, LA versus New York.

[Jacko]

Yeah, LA. Versus. Yeah. Not Brooklyn. LA. Yeah. Well, LA beat him in 63. But they had Koufax and Drysdale, it was like four nothing. And Mickey Mantle was on the downside, so.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, you're right. Yeah, yeah, I forgot about that.

[Jacko]

Yankees got swept. Yeah, yeah, swept. But they. Koufax and Drysdale, you know, and Whitey Ford at that point, I think was on fumes and Mickey was on more than fumes and it was the Yanks. That was like the downside of the Yanks dynasty. Although then they went back and lost again in 64 to the Cardinals. But yeah, that was the downside of it. So, yeah, 63, 55 and 81. The Dodgers have won and the Yankees have won eight other times. So history's on my side.

[Bill Simmons]

What does history mean? Because I forgot about 63.

[Jacko]

Get into three Yankees.

[Bill Simmons]

Mickey's had a little bit of a resurgence in the social media era. There's. There's good clips. Clips every once in a while. Like him at a roast, like, just like destroying Mickey. Billy Martin.

[Jacko]

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm glad social media was able to appreciate how funny Mickey Mantle was.

[Jacko]

They, you know what always pops up? You know, you're on Facebook and they have these random reels that pop up or whatever, and there's always one of him and Billy Martin on Letterman where they tell the story about when they went and hunting and the far and the farmer or whatever. So, yeah, there's a lot of good Mickey stories. I'm like, yeah, I'm sure that was a good night. After the two of them went on Letterman, I'll bet they went home and went to bed after that. I'm sure.

[Bill Simmons]

Who's the oldest? Oh, my God, that must have been crazy. Who's the oldest famous Yankee now?

[Jacko]

Well, that's a good question.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, because the thing is, Bob Cousy for the Celtics, like when they had the banner night, he was there. 96.

[Jacko]

That's fantastic. Holy cross. Satyrs, baby. Satyrs. The old. That's a good question. Like, you know all those guys.

[Bill Simmons]

Is Yogi alive?

[Jacko]

No, Yogi died a couple years ago. No, he's gone. Whitey Ford is gone. Mickey, man, Billy's long gone.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, all the time.

[Jacko]

Billy Martin's long gone. You know what the problem is? You said we're getting old. The guys who are the old guys now are the guys from like the 70s teams.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, like Lou Fernando and Richie Jackson dying. Yeah, right.

[Jacko]

Pete Rose died. Pete Rose, right. There's nobody. There's nobody from like the 60s teams. Tony Kubeck may still be around. I'm not sure. Tony Kubeck got some people need to. I Wanted people to respond on Twitter. Is Mary Hart still alive?

[Bill Simmons]

Put out a series of tweets to freak people out. You know who's still alive is Yaz.

[Jacko]

I know, it's great. And the funny thing is, didn't he smoke like a pack of cigarettes a game?

[Bill Simmons]

And he still.

[Jacko]

And he's still kicking and drinking. Like, I think he had vodka in his locker and he was smoking cigarettes every game. Let that be a lesson to all you health nuts out there, you know, so totally. Kids, if you're listening at home, you should start smoking and drinking vodka.

[Bill Simmons]

Smoking.

[Jacko]

I'm kidding.

[Bill Simmons]

Come back.

[Jacko]

Right? Yeah. So, yeah. So the oldest. Yeah. I mean, it's probably like, you know, I don't feel like the Yankees really utilize the grades like they used to anymore either. Like Nick Swisher, who, you know, I have a long and storied history of Nick Swisher. He threw out the first pitch in one of the games. And I'm like, I don't understand, like, when Nick Swisher was voted into the pantheon of great Yankees. I don't. I was not there for that vote, believe me. But so, you know, they don't utilize like the Core 4 anymore. Jeter's on TV, so he probably can't do it. But they should bring back Pettit and Posada and guys like that. The great Mariano. And again, maybe they're saving them for the World Series, but. Or guys from the 70s. Willie Randolph, you know, Chris Chambliss. I think I know Chris Randolph. Still with us. Yeah, Chris Chambliss, absolutely. Guys that had some Reggie, although Reggie works for the Astros now. So that's a little, that's a little, you know, that's a little rough. But yeah, those are the guys that should be the old guys that used to have like the Whitey Ford and Mickey Mantle role for the Yanks back in the day.

[Bill Simmons]

Chambers had the greatest walk off homer of all time because he had to fight off probably 2500 drunk Yankee fans. What an error that was. We were like, hey, let's everybody run on the field and be crazy.

[Jacko]

That and a complete game are two things we'll never see again.

[Bill Simmons]

True 20 second prediction on the election.

[Jacko]

I think Trump's going to win. If you had asked me that a month ago, I wouldn't have said that. But I think the way things are trending, I think Trump is going to win. And I'm as amazed by that. Well, I mean, this whole election, thank God I've got this World Series because this whole election is just a depressing outcome either way for me. It's just so. It's just too. This is the best we can do. Like, this is the third election in a row I've been like, this is the best we can do. Really? This is the best we can do. But I think, if you ask me right now, I think Trump's going to win.

[Bill Simmons]

Jacko, worst of luck with the World Series. It all played out how I wanted. Yeah. I'm not going to root for the Yankees and you know, I hate them. And you wouldn't root for the Red Sox. You never rooted for a Red Sox in any World Series.

[Jacko]

No. I love you, but I'd root against you and vice versa.

[Bill Simmons]

We've navigated this since 1988. We've been able to. We've been fine. I'm going to root against the Yankees.

[Jacko]

There you go.

[Bill Simmons]

I do like that. I do like the fact that your daughter turned out to be a good luck charm. Like, if there's. If that. If that becomes a theme, it's one thing.

[Jacko]

It's going to be hard for me.

[Bill Simmons]

To root against that, but perfect.

[Jacko]

Good. That's good. She's going to be the mascot. That's good. Well, I'll. I'll cling to that and her.

[Bill Simmons]

Thanks for coming on, Jacko.

[Jacko]

Thanks, buddy. Always fun.

[Bill Simmons]

Good to see you. All right, bye.

[Jacko]

Bye.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, that's it for part one of the podcast. Thanks to Kyle Creighton and Steve Ceruti. As always, thanks to Jacko. Thanks to Ara Helwani. Thanks to me. I guess I was the first guest I soloed, so I'm gonna thank myself. That's it for part one. You can watch all the clips on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. And don't forget, part two is coming late night after the Thursday night football game and some of the basketball games. We'll be putting up part two, so stay tuned for that. See you then. Must be 21 plus and President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + in President D.C. gambling problem. Call 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com call 1-887-897-777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling helpline ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York.