Part 1: Detroit’s Comeback, Philly’s Resurrection, and Celtics Questions With Zach Lowe

Summary

The Bill Simmons Podcast — Detailed Summary

Episode: Part 1: Detroit’s Comeback, Philly’s Resurrection, and Celtics Questions With Zach Lowe
Date: May 4, 2026
Host: Bill Simmons
Guest: Chris Ryan (with extended contributions; Zach Lowe is mentioned but not in transcript)
Theme: First-round NBA Playoff drama and deeper implications for franchise futures (Detroit's stunning comeback, Philadelphia's resurgence, and hard questions for the Celtics)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives headfirst into one of the wildest weeks in recent NBA postseason history. Bill Simmons and Chris Ryan break down the shocking round-one results, including Detroit’s historic comeback over Orlando, Philadelphia’s sudden leap, and the unraveling of the Boston Celtics. The hosts discuss what these upsets reveal about team construction, regular season value versus playoff performance, and what comes next for several franchises. The conversation is fast-paced, self-deprecating, and blends deep basketball analysis with signature Ringer banter.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Detroit’s Unlikely Comeback vs. Orlando

• Orlando’s Collapse: Simmons and Ryan relive Orlando’s astonishing Game 6 meltdown, scoring only 19 points in the second half despite being up 24 at home.
  • “I screenshotted the second half box score of Orlando and I think I'm just going to keep it in my apple cloud for the rest of my life. 4 for 37, 108 was the field goal percentage. They were 2 for 18 from 3…” — Bill Simmons, [04:29]
• Orlando’s Roster Crunch: The Magic’s offensive identity crisis, roster misfits, and burdensome contracts (Suggs, Bane, Wagner) are dissected.
  • “If Suggs is going to be the $32 million glue guy... then that contract is a borderline disaster.” — Chris Ryan, [09:21]
• On the Bane Trade and Asset Management: Both hosts liked the Bane trade initially, but now question whether ponying up so many picks for a non-superstar “final piece” is ever worth it.
  • “They have really no outs to get under the tax unless you know you do like you trade Suggs and get a $4 million guy back.” — Bill Simmons, [09:44]
• Mosley’s Coaching Future: The hosts debate if Orlando’s staff change will be enough, and posit Billy Donovan as a potential fit.
  • “I think their pivot is one of the more interesting stories of the off season and it has to go beyond a coaching change.” — Chris Ryan, [21:53]
• Reframing the Magic’s Playoff “Success”: Was losing in 7 games, down a key player, a disaster—or justifiable? Emotional aftermath weighs heavy.

2. Detroit’s Rise

• Tobias Harris’s Resurgence: Harris delivered a crucial Game 7, sparking jokes about a potential “Philly vs. Tobias Harris” conference finals.
  • “We are one round away from an entire city of Philadelphia versus Tobias Harris Conference finals matchup.” — Chris Ryan, [15:57]
• Cade Cunningham’s Leap: Throughout the series, Cade’s all-around brilliance elevated him from “is he healthy?” concerns to a near-MVP, all-NBA caliber lead.
  • “This is why he probably would have been number four or number five for mvp. He would have been an absolute first team all NBA guy.” — Bill Simmons, [18:18]
• Jalen Duren’s Struggles: Great rebounding but offensive confidence lost; Detroit’s ability to “zag”—pivot strategies mid-series—credited for their win.
• The Ascendance of Asar Thompson: Initially targeted as a non-shooter/flawed playoff player, Thompson proved indispensable with defense and off-ball activity.
  • “Asar Thompson fought through that and was undeniably a major asset for the Pistons coming back and winning this series.” — Chris Ryan, [19:30]
• Team Construction and Shooting Questions: Even in their best shooting game, Detroit’s reliance on streaky/non-shooters remains a long-term question.

3. Philadelphia’s Resurrection and Boston’s Collapse

• Philly’s Sudden Cohesion: The Sixers quickly materialized as “the dream Philadelphia team”—Embiid healthy and distributing, Maxey breaking out, Oubre defending, Paul George surging.
  • “It's really just shocking how quickly Philly just materialized. Like, oh, this is the dream Philadelphia 76ers team that we never thought we would see.” — Chris Ryan, [30:54]
• Boston’s Strategic Failings:
  • Burned Out Stars: Simmons blames Tatum’s injury on overuse, including playing heavy minutes too soon post-injury.
    • “The putting the minutes on Tatum like they did, I feel like that that caused the injury.” — Bill Simmons, [27:18]
  • Mismanaged Bench: Simmons is incensed that Missoula abandoned Boston’s wild-card bench; over-leaning on tight rotations backfired when depth was needed most.
    • “The bench was the superpower of this team... and he just punted on it.” — Bill Simmons, [38:03]
  • Missteps in Game 7 Rotations: Awkward starter choices and yanking bench players in and out; an admission of “I screwed up” by Missoula, per Simmons.
• Process vs. Results: The “we got great looks” lament—Simmons and Ryan roast this post-playoff fallacy, drawing a parallel to Budenholzer teams and Daryl Morey’s Rockets.
  • “If this thing isn't working, the right answer isn't always just keep doing the thing until it works.” — Chris Ryan, [49:41]
• Jaylen Brown Future Watch: After a dispiriting exit, the question “Should Boston break up Tatum and Brown?” is on the table—asset play, cost, and blowing up for the future are debated.

4. Big Picture: Does the Regular Season Even Matter?

• Simmons muses if playoff upsets render high seeds meaningless except for very specific matchups or home-court in Game 7s.
  • “Would my only goal be to have everybody healthy in April? And would I not care about seeds at all?” — Bill Simmons, [26:41]
• Ryan points to playoff and regular season now being almost “different sports;” the need for fewer games, but no will to change.
  • “The gap in style between the regular season and the playoffs is just getting wider and wider to the point that they are... very different versions of [the same sport].” — Chris Ryan, [29:27]

5. The 2020 NBA Draft: Redrafting Maxey and the Golden Twenties

• Simmons marvels that Tyrese Maxey, Quickley, McDaniels, and Bane all went in the 20s or later; re-examines how chaos and luck shape franchises.
  • “The twenties of that draft. Getting Tyrese Maxey... fucking bonkers. Like, how does this happen?” — Bill Simmons, [57:58]

6. Ripple Effects and What’s Next

• Sixers/Maury/Nurse Job Security: After being on the precipice, “saving” the jobs is called a ripple effect of the win.
• Jaylen Brown & Boston’s Future: Trade scenarios tossed out (Giannis to Boston, New Orleans wing gambit, Utah/Cleveland wildcards). Ultimately, Simmons advocates keeping Brown, unless a true franchise-changing opportunity arises.
• Denver and Others: Nuggets' loss leads to the “everyone but Jokic is on the table” posture; more teams may treat the regular season as pure build-up for health reasons.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Orlando’s collapse:
  • “I just stared at it like the Mona Lisa had appeared in my house. I just sat there... looking at 11, 8 [points per quarter] next to each other. Is that even possible?” — Chris Ryan, [03:26]
• On Boston’s strategic confusion:
  • “This was always supposed to be a transition year into next year to get under the tax… The bench was the superpower... and it’s just they went away from it.” — Bill Simmons, [45:25]
• On Philly’s turnaround and fan disbelief:
  • “I've had random Philly fans that I have not heard from in months reach out in the last 48 hours… I'm in shock is a word that multiple of them use.” — Chris Ryan, [31:42]
• On Jaylen Brown’s value and staying in Boston:
  • “I think he plays hard and he's durable and I think he's aged about as well as you could expect... This would be the time to trade him... But I would understand if these are the kind of discussions they're having in dark, depressing rooms right now.” — Bill Simmons, [60:48]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [04:29] — Orlando’s game 6 offensive disaster stats
• [09:21] — Suggs contract and Orlando roster critique
• [15:57] — Conference Finals “Tobias Harris vs. Philly” joke
• [18:18] — Cade Cunningham’s all-world playoff performance
• [19:30] — Asar Thompson proves value as a non-shooting defender
• [27:18] — Simmons blames Tatum injury on overuse
• [38:03] — Missoula abandons Boston’s bench; Simmons rants
• [49:41] — Boston’s “we got great looks” postmortem tendency roasted
• [57:58] — Maxey’s 2020 draft position, “fucking bonkers”
• [60:48] — Simmons on Jaylen Brown: Keep or trade?
• [66:01] — Denver’s post-first round strategy: “everyone is on the table except Jokic”

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Tone & Takeaways

The discussion is rich, rapid-fire, and blends deep basketball X’s and O’s with classic Ringer humor and existential franchise dread. Simmons is self-effacing (hungover, coping with Celtics trauma), while Ryan plays counterpoint, mixing analytic rigor with deadpan wit. If you want insight into not just what happened but “what it all means” for the direction of multiple marquee teams, this is essential listening.

Best for:

• NBA diehards, especially Celtics, Sixers, Pistons, Magic, or general playoff obsessives
• Anyone pondering the problem of “building a contender” in the player movement era
• Listeners seeking equal parts basketball therapy and tactical breakdowns

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Closing

The episode ends with foreshadowing of a Part 2 after Cleveland-Toronto’s Game 7. Simmons and Ryan promise more therapy and off-season speculation to come as the NBA’s wildest postseason in recent memory rolls on.

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End of summary.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

This episode is brought to you by HubSpot. You know why elite point guards make everyone better? It isn't just the no look dimes. It's because they know everything. Who's hot, who's tired, what the defense is doing, which teammate needs a basket. Most businesses don't have that. Sales run one play, marketing runs another. Nobody told service. The game plan has now changed. HubSpot gives you that point guard vision. One platform, full customer context. And that context is everything you need to win. Visit HubSpot.com to learn more. The Bill Simmons Podcast. We are live on Netflix. Zach Lowe is here. Zach Lowe doing double duty this weekend. He did a little brief podcast after game seven. Not game seven. Game seven. Game seven, Celtic Sixers.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. The Celtics season is over. You know that, right? That was game seven.

[Bill Simmons]

It felt like game nine. Okay, wait. Before we start, wanted to mention new rewatchables coming tomorrow. It is. Netflix is a joke month, so we're doing some comedies. We did There's Something About Mary. It's gonna be running tomorrow. And let's see, what do they have on the service this month? Slap shot, Fletch, 48 hours, Mrs. Doubtfire, meet the Parents, Long Came Polly. We've done episodes on all of those already. They're on Netflix. Ghostbusters, Kindergarten Cop. We just did Tropic Thunder, Tootsie Splash and Borat.

[Chris Ryan]

Wow. That is all available heavy hitters.

[Bill Simmons]

Wonder what's gonna happen anyway. Orlando, Detroit just happened.

[Chris Ryan]

It did.

[Bill Simmons]

Not a lot of comedy in this series. Unless you like tragicomedy. Tragicomedy.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, that's a phrase.

[Bill Simmons]

Detroit wins going away. We have two teams that came back from three one and in round one. I'm just gonna throw a bunch of stuff for you. Things that happened just in the last five days. Okay? Joker got bounced by McDaniels, Gobert, Shannon and Zombie Mike Conley. That was the thing that happened. Atlanta fell behind 72 to 22 in a do or die home game. Orlando blew a 24 point lead in a game six clincher for them with a 19 point second half. LeBron at age 41 was the best guy in a playoff series. Embiid won a game 7. Paul George outplayed Jason Tatum and Jaylen Brown in a playoff series. I think they debatable, but I'm going to throw it in there. Cade and Maxey have now jumped a level up into some getting near the final level of levels. The Brown Tatum era, for all we know, could be over. We'll talk about that later.

[Chris Ryan]

Wow.

[Bill Simmons]

And then Two teams came back from three. One. Just some of the things that have happened. Orlando, Detroit, Friday night is the weirdest thing that happened all playoffs though, just bizarre. 19 points in the second half in a must win game.

[Chris Ryan]

So I watched that game and obviously you're digesting as it happens that the Magic have not made a basket in quite a long time. Another miss, Another miss. Another miss. For some reason I didn't realize until after the game had ended that they had only scored 19 points in an entire half of basketball. Like I just didn't put to do the math in real time. And I looked at the box score and I just stared at it like, like the Mona Lisa had appeared in my house. I just sat there in silence for like 30 seconds looking at 11, 8 next to each other and being like, is that even possible? And look, if not for a late run of full court press and Detroit comedy turnovers at the end of this game, we would have been looking at like 105 points combined over six quarters of basketball for an NBA playoff team. And it ended up being I think 113 instead. But still, I mean like 113 points in six quarters is kind of a problem. I know Franz Wagner is out. That's a big deal, but not great.

[Bill Simmons]

I screenshotted the second half box score of Orlando and I think I'm just going to keep it in my apple cloud for the rest of my life. 4 for 37, 108 was the field goal percentage. They were 2 for 18 from 3. They had 17 rebounds and Detroit had 34. Said half as many seven turnovers. Palo and Bain combined were 2 for 20. Suggs was 0 for 6 and Bain was minus 39 and a half and just one half minus 39. It's really, really special the fact that they didn't cover or even cover like a double digit spread. They lost by 14. They were up 24 early in the third quarter. It was. And at home it was an amazing collapse.

[Chris Ryan]

They were laughing at the Pistons like, like, I mean literally like Duncan Robinson memory. I think he threw an inbounds pass out of bounds all the way to the other sideline. And Desmond Bain grinned in his face like cackled in his face. Wendell Carter Jr. Was laughing. They were mocking the Pistons up 24 in that game. And then they missed. I don't remember. It was like two dozen shots in a row. They just could not make any baskets. For a team that's been a horrendous offensive team now for a long time, absolute, it's funny. How would you regard this, right? Like it was a disaster season. Disaster season. Everyone's heard all the time. It doesn't gel. It doesn't gel. Then it gels. And they blitz the Hornets in the play in tournament. The team that like all of the NBA world outside of Orlando was rooting for the Hornets to get into the playoffs. They go up 31 against the number one seed and it's like, all right, this is the team 50 and a half over under. They got their mojo back. Maybe the Mosley Bankero thing is fine. Wow. And then they lose the next three games in increasingly dispirited fashion. And do you look at this like, well, we lost to the number one seed in seven games without our best or second best. I guess after this Palo game, I would say second best player in Fran Wagner. Yeah, that's not so bad. Or is it so bad? It seems very bad right now in the moment.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, think about a week ago. So I remember talking to my dad after the Celtics were up 3:1 and just being like, see, I told you we, we wanted to play Philly over Orlando. That was the contestant.

[Chris Ryan]

That's right.

[Bill Simmons]

That was seven days ago. So many things flipped in eight days. Like the Knicks, all their fans were in complete panic when they were down two one. They have this must win game, game four in Atlanta, and it feels like if this game goes wrong, we could just see the Knicks completely blow everything up. Now they're the favorites to win the east, like pretty convincingly. Um, and then Orlando and Philly basically switched places. I had, before we get into game seven, I had some big picture stuff and you brought up Franz. Does Orlando win the series if he doesn't get hurt? Because I, I feel like they win game six. I do feel like they had figured out at least something with him defending Cade that made it reasonable to shut down Detroit offensively at least a little bit. Once Franz was out, Cade went basically ape shit

[Chris Ryan]

up 3 1. You would say they probably do, I think. But I, I, I, I don't really care, honestly. Like he gets injured and the entire team other than Ban Caro and Bain. Bain was a Bane, was good for the bulk of the series and okay, today got, got some points late when it was out of hand.

[Bill Simmons]

He was okay.

[Chris Ryan]

He was okay.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm gonna give him. Okay, I'm not gonna give him four first round picks. Good.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I mean that's the bigger picture is that, yeah, Franz goes out and he's defending Cade pretty well. He's a well rounded offensive Player the fit with Bankero has never been great but the talent is the talent and then they just cease to function as an offensive basketball team. And they're paying Jalen Suggs $32 million next year. He has four more years left on his contract. He can't make a shot. Anthony.

[Bill Simmons]

Not only can he not make a shot, his shots are going left, right, long, short. You almost don't know which direction they're going. It's like a compass.

[Chris Ryan]

Anthony Black is extension eligible and I don't even know where to begin with negotiating that contract. I know where I'd begin with if I were his agent. They are paying Bain, Banchero and Wagner like $135 million combined next year.

[Bill Simmons]

They're in the tax right next year

[Chris Ryan]

no matter what happens there might be double tax. Jet Howard, they declined his fourth year option for next season. He was a a fairly important first round pick. Jace Richardson, now he's the 25th pick. Couldn't get on the floor. Tristan D. Silva like kind of role got scrunched a little bit toward the end of the series. Like there's it's. And then if Suggs is just. If Suggs is going to be the $32 million glue guy, elite level glue guy like the Derrick White, we'll talk about Derek White series, the Derek White of the Magic once every three weeks for two games then that contract is a borderline disaster. And his shooting in this series was like it's just not acceptable for a guy in that role. I'm sorry.

[Bill Simmons]

He didn't used to be nearly as bad of. I don't know what happened to him in this series. The shots were so bad it made you wonder was he hurt? Yeah. So you talk. They just started. Paolo kicks in next year, the 5 for 240, whatever that is and then Franz year two he's got 4 for 184 left. Baines at 39, 42, 45. Brutal. And then you mentioned the Suggs. They also have Carter at 18 and 19 and they have Bataze at seven and a half next year. So they have really no outs to get under the tax unless you know you do like you trade Suggs and get a $4 million guy back. Something like that. They are also missing all their picks. They have 27, they have 31 and in 2029 they can swap with Memphis but it's Memphis's call and that's all they have for picks because of the ban trade. I. Do you think I still want to dive into this Game seven. But do you think that the after Bain and Bridges these trades are just done now? This was like this thinking outside the box zag. We're close. These picks aren't going to matter anyway. This is a way for us to elevate our team and go to another level. But we're not getting all NBA player, maybe not even an all star.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean it's not a coincidence. I don't think that both those teams are in the east. Right. And the east sort of has this, this openness to it that convinces these teams who have not really done anything, I mean Orlando has not really done anything in the Bam. Won a playoff series with this group of guys like and. But it convinces them that like we can jump all the way from that to. If you're trading four first round picks for an in his prime, late 20s veteran, you're saying like we think we can make the finals right now. I thought that trade was fine for them because I liked it for them, to be honest with you, because I just didn't know what other direction, what other player were they going to get that fit everything that they needed. We all knew that they had overpaid, but it was the sort of. But then you look at the opportunity costs, they're stuck now. They don't have a lot of outs other than trading. You never want to be in a position where your out is trading one of your best players from a position of like we don't really have anything else to do. And that's kind of where they are.

[Bill Simmons]

I want to say I liked the Bain trade when it happened. I did too because I thought, I hate putting it this way, but I honestly thought he was better. Like even what you saw with Franz out, I thought there were moments. Remember there was that stretch he had in Memphis where he was like running their offense and scoring 25, 27 a game. I actually wanted to see what that would look like on this team with those two guys. And then they had. It was a classic. Not enough plates at the table for everybody's situation sometimes. And you could see him kind of step back. He'd step up, he'd step back. I thought this would be like, okay, Franz is out, it's Desmond Bain time. And it's just maybe he's not that guy. I don't know. What do you see?

[Chris Ryan]

It's not only not enough plates, it's like everyone is trying to get the same food or food is being tossed. The main guys just don't fit very well together. And Paolo is A classic. Like he has the game and style of a number one offensive player because he doesn't have the game and style of a number two offensive player because of his shooting liabilities. But he's just not good enough at the number one offense despite a brilliant game today when no one else is with him. He's just not at that level as a number one guy yet. Maybe he'll get there someday. And so you just don't. The whole team's offense just feels amorphous, unformed. Lack of identity, lack of cohesion, lack of understanding on a lot of possessions of like what they want to do. And all of that just coalesced into that second half of game six where they just did all the wrong things, attacked all the wrong matchups, missed all the wrong shots and just had no plan B on any possession after one action. And that's just, it's just a weird mix of guys and you want to keep saying, well, if they're healthy, if they're healthy, if they're healthy. It's just, even when they've been healthy, it just hasn't worked well enough on offense.

[Bill Simmons]

Game six, second half was a good example of. It's nice to have an old school guard on your team that can be like, come on guys, calm down. And the guy could, it could be Zombie Mike Connolly, it could be anybody. But I think they're probably expecting Black, who I think had some moments this year and even in this playoff series had a couple moments, but I think for where they needed him to be, he just couldn't get there. But he's a weird team.

[Chris Ryan]

He's the same issue as Paolo, just many tiers down the league hierarchy in that he is like an on ball creator kind of player, but just not good enough to do that a lot at a high level and doesn't have the jump shot yet. I mean he shot it much better this year, but he's never going to shoot it at volume or he hasn't yet to be an off ball. Like it just, there's just a lot of pieces that don't fit together to add up to more than the sum of their parts, which we knew. Like this is the. This has not been a good offensive team ever in this era.

[Bill Simmons]

Sometimes you gotta rise to the challenge. Like me today. I'm incredibly hungover. Wow. I can't even tell you what happened yesterday, but there were a lot of drinks and it was bad and I'm fighting through it today. And maybe the audience barely knows except for the nine times I stammered. And when I couldn't remember, it was a Game seven yesterday, Philly in Boston.

[Chris Ryan]

I chalked that one up to, you're having a tough emotional time. I give you some grace on that one.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, it was my daughter's 21st birthday yesterday and we decided to go to a bar in Manhattan beach and watch the Celtic game. And drinks ensued and then the game was tense and we're going to talk about that later.

[Chris Ryan]

Zoe's first drink ever on his 21st birthday.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, midnight Friday night was the first official legal in a bar. Here's my ID drink, which is always fun, always nice to be there for those. Big picture for Detroit because they were great today. They finally got an awesome Tobias Harris game in a must win situation.

[Chris Ryan]

Love it.

[Bill Simmons]

I was thinking about Doc Rivers because I think his two favorite players he's probably coached in the last 15 years were Maxi and Harris. And both of those guys were awesome. Maxi, we'll talk about later.

[Chris Ryan]

Hey, look, I don't want to get too far ahead and I don't know that this outcome is particularly likely, but we are one round away from a entire city of Philadelphia versus Tobias Harris Conference finals matchup.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh my God. It is possible. Well, he was great. He had 17 the second quarter. They had a 40 point second quarter and. And it was basically Tobias and Cade Dern was at least rebounding. I don't know what's happened to him offensively again. I voted for him, second team, all NBA. And he's just completely lost his confidence with like the little quick jump hooks and I don't know. And it's beyond like, oh, Orlando's doing something. He just seems spooked to me and that would be the biggest red flag I would have. We don't know who they're playing yet in the next round, but the fact that he's just a complete mess from 4 to 8ft around the rim, I don't really fully understand what happened to him.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I mean, part of it is what Orlando has been doing since game one, which is we're going to go under every Cade pick and switch and at the same time and take away your roles to the rim. And every roll to the rim felt like, like just, oh my God, that's what the whole regular season looked like and we haven't seen it. And then like one would happen per game. You'd be like, oh my God, it's like an alien landed in my backyard. Jalen Duran got a free roll to the rim. But you're right that I think that got into his head and it just feels like every time he gets the ball with a smidgen of an opening in the paint, he's just almost throwing it up there, like rushing it up there.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like these quick shots.

[Chris Ryan]

There's no touch on it. But I will give him credit. Like he pounded the offensive glass today, which if they're going to switch against him, he has to do. And his rim protection was pretty goddamn solid the entire series to the point that the outcry among some Pistons fans for more Isaiah Stewart, less Jalen Duran even start Isaiah Stewart kind of petered out and so does Isaiah Stewart's minutes. And we got more Paul Reed and we got. Look, we all like Isaiah Stewart's a fun NBA character.

[Bill Simmons]

We all enjoy him seven minutes today.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean these fouls where he's just throwing people to the ground and running them over is just you're hurting your team. I understand. It's like your, it's your identity, it's the role you play on the team. But there's a way to do that without. And Mo Wagner is a good actor, probably exaggerated, but like you just can't play like that. And I think even J.B. bickerstaff is like, dude, come on.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, and then you have Cade, who in game five has 45 and just single handedly drags them through that game. Game 6 in the second half, 24 points, 9 rebounds, 4 steals, 9 and 10 from the free throw line and then 32 and 9 today. So this goes from hey, do you think he'll be 100% for this, for this Orlando series to hey, this is why he probably would have been number four or number five for mvp. He would have been an absolute first team all NBA guy. And I just thought he was incredible. I mean that's everything. Him and Maxi, everything you would want from your best guy in a playoff series.

[Chris Ryan]

He was great. He hit threes and teams are going to dare him to shoot threes and he knows that and he hit enough of them in this series. Defensively, he guards Paolo now and then. Like he'll guard up, he'll guard down. He plays hard, he makes plays at the rim. He plays really occasionally like any star player. He, he'll get a little bit unfocused away from the ball and try to rest a little bit, but he plays really hard on both ends of the floor. And the other guy, the sort of pendulum of referendums on this type of player is so interesting because it's hard to be a non shooting Perimeter player in the playoffs. We all know that. We all know what happens to them.

[Bill Simmons]

Need a name for those guys.

[Chris Ryan]

I feel like the Thompson twins. I, I, I, I feel like a sar. Thompson fought through that and was undeniably a major asset for the Pistons coming back and winning this series. Just unbelievable defensively flying everywhere and they started using him more in the offense as a screener, as a cutter, as a DHO guy. And I think that's what you have to do when teams ignore them and you're and he's this spectacular of an athlete. It looked after two or three games like oh, another non shooter is going to be like kind of exposed in the playoffs and Asar Thompson fought through that and like he was plus 12 today. I think he was plus 13 or 14 coming into the series. Like he was a big part of their comeback.

[Bill Simmons]

You know I looked up before. So what were they on? So they're 16 for 33 today and three is Detroit heading into this. I looked at the basketball reference where they have the series stats and they have everybody ranked in different categories on the on their playoff page. Detroit was 16th in three point percentage heading into today, 29.7. So they finally had a game where they hit some threes and what's interesting is Duncan Robinson felt like he missed like six wide open ones so it really could have been like a 22 for 33. So good game for them. Not sure if it was an aberration 3 point shooting game because I don't other than Duncan Robinson and even like Cade's been a little spotty. I don't know how many people I trust in big moments we will see. It's still an amazing, amazing, amazing comeback for them. And then for Orlando. Is it fair to say Mosley has completed the. Definitely getting fired and probably has saved his job. Definitely getting fired. Triple axel. We don't see this very often.

[Chris Ryan]

I was thinking about that in game six in game seven and if you were Orlando's front office and you had been leaning toward firing him before the play in tournament and everything like that, I think you'd have to lean that way again because the offense is just so rudderless and without any cohesion at all. And it just at some point something has to change and I, I, I, I am interested. I think their pivot is one of the more interesting stories of the off season and it has to go beyond a coaching change if that happens. And I just don't know, I don't know what it is, I don't know what, what Their move is to, to shake this roster up in a way that makes it more functional.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you know what doesn't make sense is trading Giannis for Palo.

[Chris Ryan]

Who does it not make sense for

[Bill Simmons]

Orlando because it doesn't get them any closer to being anywhere.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, you look at.

[Bill Simmons]

I'd rather just keep Palo and see how this plays out.

[Chris Ryan]

You look at their roster around Paolo slash Giannis and I, it's undeniable that you would kind of feel there just not enough shooting and you know, I. Who knows what.

[Bill Simmons]

And I'd also have to probably put more stuff in that. So that was a really fun fake trade during the season, but I think that one has now expired and I

[Chris Ryan]

got not much other stuff to. To put in it. Right. Like my picks went out in the Bane trade. My young guys aren't playing much like I don't, other than Anthony Black and I don't know what else I got.

[Bill Simmons]

No, your move this year is we like this team. We're going to change coaches, we're going to see how this goes. PA is no longer a poison pill guy. We want to see what this looks like for the first half of the year and then we'll figure it out. But I, I think. And by the way, is Billy Donovan. No inside info, but this is the kind of team I would want to coach if I was Billy Donovan and I wanted to keep coaching in the NBA. Right. A lot of young assets. It's almost like a grass, like an older college team.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, he's certainly been linked identity. The rumor mill has certainly linked him to this job potentially. Obviously there's the Florida connection. Don't you think Billy Donovan, when he thinks of what type of team he'd like to coach if he stayed in the NBA, is it just like anything but the Bulls? It's just like I just. It's just any. Just anything's going to feel great. Just any other job's going to feel fantastic.

[Bill Simmons]

Or he probably looks at all the guys he had on, on the roster the last couple of years and wonders maybe we should have made a run. Kobe, White and IO all these dudes.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, God, let's not. Let's not do it. Let's not even do it.

[Bill Simmons]

We're going to take a break. I have a very important big picture question for you about the league. And then we're going to rehash, sadly, Celtic Sixers. Ooh. The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. It's been a wild playoff run. Not over yet. FanDuel wants to bring you closer to the court to make all of that action come to life for you. The basketball fan fanduel the best place to bet the teams players plays during NBA post season. Build a same game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout, or try live betting and jump into the action right after. Tip off whatever you want. That's the whole point of live betting. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app right now and play your game 21 select states are 18 DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Game problem call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat Connecticut this episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. You know what my favorite thing about the playoffs is? I like Durant and it's usually maybe a Game four. Might even be a Game five. Game seven, everyone's nervous. There's a different level of energy. But Game four, Game five for one of the two teams, there's this realization with like five minutes left in the fourth quarter where it's like, oh, our fate is suddenly in real flux right now. Who's stepping up? What are we going to do? What's calmed down? Can we rise to the moment or are we going to shrink from it? It's as great as opening up a Michelob Ultra. A nice cold one, crisp, refreshing, the ultimate prize. Plus, as the official beer partner of the NBA, they're giving fans a chance to win courtside tickets, custom merch and more. You could be at one of those games when the pressure rises. Michelob Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Enter now at michelobultra.com courtside Michelob Ultra Courtside 2526 no purchase necessary. Open to US residents 21/plus begins on October 1, 2025 ends on June 30, 2026 multiple entry periods. See official [e-mail] courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and prizes and details. All right, we're going to talk Celtics Sixers, but I have a big picture question for you because we almost saw Orlando. If they had just taken care of business in the second half, an eight seed would have won. Then a seventh seed would have won, which they did with Philadelphia, and then a six seed one with Minnesota. Even though they lost multiple people. It's and listen, this isn't the first time this topic has brought up about regular season versus playoffs, and we know they're two different sports. I think the thing that has changed for me is wondering like if I was in charge of a team, how much value would I even put in the regular season anymore? And would my only goal be to have everybody healthy in April? And would I not care about seeds at all? Right. Cause even you talk about Denver, Minnesota, it's like, shit, they won. If they had lost, they could have played Lakers, Houston, and that was where seeds matter. I think you could look at this season and be like, you know what? None of the seeds really mattered at all, except who's going to have game seven, Thunder, Spurs. Because that's going to be the only series that really ultimately matters. Right. Other than that, put anyone in any seed, and we probably would have had competitive series with any of the other 14 teams for the most part. And I'm just wondering, like, the Celtics, if they had to do this over again, how much of the stuff would they have done differently, knowing what they know now?

[Chris Ryan]

Well, what's what stuff? Like, just lighten the load on Derek White so he's not, whatever, worn out or whatever the hell happened to him. And this.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I'm talking Derek White, 10 less games, 300 less minutes. Jalen, 8 less games, 400 less minutes. Tatum, 30 minute max the entire time. And that's. I mean, I've been saying this on the pod for weeks now. And the. The putting the minutes on Tatum like they did, I feel like that that caused the injury. I'm always going to feel that way. It made no sense to me as they were doing it. Him playing 43 minutes in one game and 40 in another in the playoffs, I just thought was insane.

[Chris Ryan]

Don't you think? Part of that. There had to have been some sports science behind that of like, if we're going to actually ramp him up for big playoff minutes, we got to ramp him up like in the regular season, we have to sort of give him heavier minutes loads than you would expect.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, like, did you see his quotes today, though? About. His quotes today were basically like, yeah, my right leg's not as strong as my left leg yet. You figured this was gonna happen like he had. There was one quote in there that made me wonder, like, damn, this is what he said. It was just unfortunate timing, but I guess a little bit to be expected, right? I was away for ten and a half months, and then I came back and I'm playing every other day. I was playing 36 to 40 minutes. So it's not unusual that something would come up. It was inevitable. At some point I was going to have to deal with something that kind of came at the worst possible time. Was it inevitable? Shouldn't they have just played this 20, 30 minutes? Look at how the spurs have treated Wembanyama basically his whole career, but especially this year they've been adamant about not trying to put too many miles on him. And conversely, I look at Denver and I know Joker had to make the all NBA run, which probably in retrospect was a bad idea. But they're just putting all these miles on Jokic and Murray, who immediately looked like they ran out of gas in the first round. So would you rethink how you treat the playoffs versus the regular season just holistically from what we're watching right now?

[Chris Ryan]

First of all, this entire conversation is music to Adams over Zerus. How can we make the regular season matter even less and seem less relevant for an unending slog of six months of games? Like yeah, please, let's have more teams think this way. There need to be fewer games. We know there need to be fewer games. Everybody knows and agrees there need to be fewer games.

[Bill Simmons]

We know that's not happening.

[Chris Ryan]

No, but no, no one is actually willing to make whatever sacrifice is necessary to do that. So then we're stuck in this situation where yeah, the playoffs are a completely different game than the regular season. Different types of players have different kinds of playoff experiences than in the regular season. Like the 16 game versus 82 kind of players that Draymond Green famously said a few years ago. And the gap is getting bigger. Kirk Kurt Goldsberry wrote about this for the Ringer last week that the gap in style between the regular season and the playoffs is just getting wider and wider to the point that they are the same sport but very different versions of it.

[Bill Simmons]

Right?

[Chris Ryan]

And I mean sure, ideally you would if you could just know I'm going to be a top six seed so at least I'm not in the play in tournament because you can't risk that. No matter what you can't risk.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know, Philly risked it. Philly got what? 30, 30 games that have been beat. How many did he actually play?

[Chris Ryan]

He played some amount of Embiid Games, 38 games.

[Bill Simmons]

Paul George took a 25 month suspension, vacation for whatever he did and came back looked better than ever and looked like 20, 21. Paul George the only people they put real minutes on the whole season were Maxi and Edgecombe. Maxi played a lot of minutes. He ended up only playing 70 games but he played 38 minutes a game. He led the league. Vijay was a rookie, played 35, but that's young legs. But none of it mattered because for five games in the playoffs, they had their team.

[Chris Ryan]

It's. It's really just shocking how quickly Philly just materialized. Like, oh, this is the dream Philadelphia 76ers team that we never thought we would see. And like, oh, my God, here it is. Like, Joel Embiid is firing behind the back passes to Kelly Oubre, who's dunking, and everyone's going crazy, and Tyrese Maxey's roasting everyone.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but even in. Even in real time, people still weren't believing it when it was happening. The Celtics were, I think, minus 2,200 after game four. Even after they lost game five, they were minus 1100, which. House and I are both like, whoa, that seems crazy. And then in game seven, without Tatum, they were six and a half point favorites. The Celtics. I thought that was going to be a 50, 50 game. I didn't think anybody should be favored. I was shocked by that. But nobody believed in Philly until they did it.

[Chris Ryan]

I. I mean, we all have Philly fans in our lives. We have some at. At the Ringer and Spotify. I have just random. I've had random Philly fans that I have not heard from in months reach out in the last 48 hours. They're just as shocked as everybody else. The ones that are reaching out to me are like, I can't. I'm just walking around with a big grin on my face. I can't even believe what's just happened. I'm in. Shock is a word that multiple of them use. They just. They even. They are like, this. This happened. Like this team just suddenly clicked into place. Like this. I can't believe.

[Bill Simmons]

Was incredible to watch as it was happening. Game two, I just thought the Celtics played like crap and Philly made some threes. I wasn't alarmed. But game five, I was alarmed and talked about it on the pod after game six was equally alarming. You look at the last second half of game five, game six, game seven. Philly basically dominated those three games. I mean, they were up, I think, 15 plus in all the games. The Celtics never really had a lead ever. Always felt like they were playing, come from behind basketball. And there's a few things I'm shocked by. 1. 1 was just how kind of competent Embiid looked, like he wasn't doing. We've seen him come back from not playing, and he falls down a lot. And you always think, the next one, I thought, pretty good. That was about as good as you're gonna get from him defensively, like, protecting the Glass some of his passing, I thought, I just thought he played well. I was really surprised by that. Right.

[Chris Ryan]

He was outstanding on both offensively, especially defensively. It can come and go for him a little bit, but he was moving around a lot very well in games five and six. Game seven was good enough. And offensively he was absolutely brilliant in that game.

[Bill Simmons]

And Paul George, you know, who I guess was sick in Game 7, but Paul George just was the equal of Brown and Tatum on a lot of these minutes and quarters. Game seven, maybe not as much, but that one was shocking. Kelly Oubre's defense, which I was like, ah, he's not bad. He gives an honest effort like he was invaluable. And then, you know, just riding Maxi, the one thing you could have predicted and we did our most intriguing players draft and I think I took Maxi as my leap guy because I was like, this is fits the profile of if somebody was going to make the massive leap. He kind of checks a lot of those boxes. He was awesome. And if you think about like the next series, them versus the Knicks, if they win, it'll be because he's the best player in the series, which sounds like stupid and cliche, but that's usually the best player usually wins the series and they would need him to just go nuts in the series. I think. I think the Knicks can throw some stuff at Embiid. I don't know if Paul George can do that again. Edgecomb, one game you had that stat, what was he, 0 for 16 in the losses from threes?

[Chris Ryan]

That wasn't me, but yeah, it was something like that. It swings hard with VJ's three point shot.

[Bill Simmons]

He's trick or treat from three, which is fine.

[Chris Ryan]

But I'll tell you what's, never trick or treat with him. Absolutely fearless and is just unafraid of any of these big moments. Wants the ball and in transition for a guard who's not huge. He has just meteorically risen into like he's one of the five most terrifying players in transition in the entire league. You just. It doesn't even matter if somebody's back, if that guy's bigger than him, if he's got ahead of steam, he's going to finish over you and there's just nothing you can do about it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it reminds me of some of the all time great transition guards we've had that you knew in the first year. Like Rose and Westbrook were both like this Westbrook just taken over. Like Jesus being like shot out like a cannon. I thought Nick Durst was awesome in this series. And conversely, I thought Missoula was bad. And we can talk about that now or later.

[Chris Ryan]

I was going to say, I've been waiting to hear you weigh in on.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought Missoula was incredible in the regular season. It was. Honestly, I voted for him for coach of the year. I thought he was incredible.

[Chris Ryan]

I would have, too.

[Bill Simmons]

And I don't know what they were thinking with this playoffs. I have so many questions. And look, did Philly win the series or did Boston blow it? I think the answer is both. They went back to their 2024 style without the same players is my biggest issue. They slowed it down. They didn't play with pace. They gave up on their bench. And I was saying it on the podcast at the time. I didn't really understand it. It was interesting. Jalen, after the game yesterday was like, I actually liked how we played. I thought we looked like us. Like, that's. That's who we were all season. That's kind of how I felt. This team, they gave up on the

[Chris Ryan]

bench until they started half of it in the most important game of the season.

[Bill Simmons]

I know. Well, that almost seemed, like, symbolic for Joe, like, just to say, I screwed up. I did this wrong. But the problem is. So you have two different problems. One is you do the assignments for Vucevich trade to get under the luxury tax, which I get, and I understand all the benefits for that. But my dad, who is the most bitter I've ever heard him after a playoff series loss, I was going to have him on the podcast today, and he's so mad about the series that I decided not to have him because he was just furious at everybody. And after the game, he was like, I was going to go up to Chisholm and congratulate him for getting under the luxury tax. Like, just furious. Because not only do you not have Simons, who I think would have had at least a couple real moments in this series and would have mattered.

[Chris Ryan]

He got injured, but who knows what would have happened?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, did he get injured? I don't know. He had, like, a lottery injury. But then you bring Vucevich in so you have that swing. And I just felt. This is my honest feeling. I think Missoula treated this series like, let's figure out what we have for when we play the Knicks and the Pistons and whoever comes out of the West. I'm going to use this as my litmus test series. I'm going to see what I have with Vucevich. I'm going to shorten My rotations, I'm going to try to do the 2024 thing again. And they just got away from what succeeded for them. The bench was the superpower of this team. It was guys like Hugo and Walsh coming in and being maniacs for five, six minutes and he just punted on it. And then in a game seven, it's like, hey, Shireman, can you go back to being awesome like you were the last two months of the season? It's like you've been yanking me around. Of course he went hit zero points in game seven. This guy was a real asset down the stretch. So I just, I really think Missoula screwed the series up. And I'm always going to think that

[Chris Ryan]

I was going to say, if he was in the lab experimenting in preparation for the next rounds. What was the Game 7 experiment? Was that like me melting things on the bunsen burner in 9th grade chemistry class? Just like throwing a pen cap on the. Oh, look, it's melting. What experiment was taking?

[Bill Simmons]

That was an admission of I screwed up. I need to ride with my bench guys in the crowd. Listen, Garza starting is totally explainable to me because they're trying not to get Keda in foul trouble, right? And they're trying to move more of Kata's minutes against Drummond. Like, I get it. Hopefully Garza can hit. He was great on those threes at the top of the arc. Missed a couple and we never saw him again. And Scheireman should have started for Tatum. And even though he was getting yanked around all series, that's who I thought was going to start. The Ron Harper thing did catch my attention. That one was like, huh? Because he just hadn't played. I wasn't against it. I wasn't against it, but I was like, oh, okay. And I think they put him in an unfair spot, which is another thing you have to think about. I probably would have just started Walsh and been okay. But this goes to the bigger thing of like, you're playing Tatum and Brown these big minutes in the first six games and you're not giving those minutes to the bench guys. So then when you actually need the bench guys, you're basically throwing them in cold. I just don't get it.

[Chris Ryan]

Walsh playing only five minutes is pretty surprising. And I know he's, you know, he's not going to be guarded on the perimeter, although he shot okay this year. But defensively he was far and away their best option on Maxi from the start of the season until now. And it's just like if you're going to play if you're going to juggle it up and play all these random dudes. Like, it seems weird to me that, you know, falling through the cracks is the one guy who's actually guarding Maxi pretty well and Jalen Brown who's done

[Bill Simmons]

a great job against him during the season, really, really effective.

[Chris Ryan]

And Jalen Brown took the assignment in in game seven and was like fine. But there was just nothing that they I mean in the end maybe it wouldn't have mattered. He's Maxi was just too brilliant and too multifaceted and offensive player for whatever they threw at him. But just the whole game was just starting with Tatum being not on the injury report to questionable to out to the starting five, to them falling behind early, coming back late and the whole game was just very weird.

[Bill Simmons]

This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra, the official beer partner of the NBA. With playoffs around the corner, now's a good time to create a tournament of your own. Compete to see who can predict the best playoff series or put your own basketball skills to the test. And the prize? A crisp Michelob Ultra. Plus, they're giving fans a chance to win courtside tickets, prizes and more. Michelob Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Enter now at michelobultra.com courtside Michelob Ultra Courtside 2526 no purchase necessary open to U.S. residents 21/plus begins on October 1, 2025 ends on June 30, 2026 multiple entry periods. See official [e-mail] Courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and prizes and details. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Upsets Buzzer beaters game changing plays what happens on the court keeps us on our toes, and life isn't any different. That's where State Farm comes in. With over 19,000 neighborhood agents for when you want to talk to a real person and easy to use digital tools, State Farm is there to help when facing the unpredictable. Because in life's uncertain moments, big or small, you need to know someone is ready to assist. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Price and eligibility vary by state. This episode is brought to you by Instagram. As a parent, I know that you're always gonna worry about your teens. And while we can't keep them at home in a bubble, there are still ways to make sure they're protected. Like Instagram Teen Accounts. Instagram Teen accounts have automatic protections for what your teens see and who can contact them. Plus time management Tools and extra controls for parents who prefer them. And Instagram will continue adding built in safety features to help create age appropriate experiences. Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens [e-mail] teenaccounts that's instagram.com teenaccounts I knew on Thursday that we weren't gonna see Tatum. I was convinced. I said it on the podcast. You could tell he was hurt and they weren't gonna mess with it. And it was the other leg. And this is what always happens when these people have these traumatic injuries to one leg, you know, favoring the other leg. And it's always a concern cause you're putting more stress on it. And they played him too many minutes. I mean the big thing for me is I don't think they were beating San Antonio or okc. So it's not like oh we blew the title. It's more like I just know if we did this, if you just reset button this and went back two weeks and you basically have to win those first two games. He had a feeling Embiid was going to come back midway through the series. But the way they played game two with all the threes just letting Maxi and Edgecomb do whatever they wanted and then game five was, you know, even worse. But I just, I know they would have tried to mix that up, used a bigger bench. Like even what Minnesota did against Murray. Let's put some miles on Murray. Let's make them dribble the ball up 94ft. You know, I know Maxey who's the minutes later in the league, but at least like they, they just made it so easy for him. I felt like he was going downhill like a running back for two straight weeks. Right.

[Chris Ryan]

I by the way, I don't know how much we're going to talk about it because it starts tomorrow, but Anthony Edwards was just upgraded to questionable for game one of that series you mentioned Minnesota and cleared the Timberwolves said he's cleared for all basketball activities on court activities and upgraded to questionable. I the divincenzo injury is, is heartbreaking. It's always sucks and it's. He's a big part of their team. I can't wait for that series. If ant is like a full go and those. The last couple of games he played against Denver he did not look like himself. He was not assertive, he was not explosive. And if he's closer to himself, I mean he's already had a 50 point game against them this year. The idea of him trying to dunk on Wemby by itself is just beyond intoxicating. You got the French center battle. Like, there's a lot to love about this matchup that we haven't really gotten to sink our teeth into because it was just, we just didn't know who was going to be left of the Minnesota Timberwolves. And by the way, kudos for the Minnesota Turnbulls you've talked about already for finding a way to win that series against the Nuggets without so many guys. That was an awesome, awesome effort by them.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, and that's the thing. They figured it out. They zagged a little bit. They tried to do some different things. Like the Terrence Shannon thing was incredible. Not only just playing him, but unleashing him and just saying, go attack Jamal Murray, his legs are dead. And conversely, with the Celts, Missoula was so good during the season and I just didn't see the ingenuity in the same way. It really felt like he was trying to replicate 24. And I can't say this strongly enough. This was not the same. This was always supposed to be a transition year into next year to get under the tax. And instead of Porzingis and Jrue Holiday and Horford, you have guys that just aren't as good and aren't as experienced on the team and you weren't going to be able to replicate it. So I think the superpower for this team was the bench and the unpredictability and the wild card nature of just these guys that would have these weird heat checks. It was happening all year and it's just they went away from it.

[Chris Ryan]

I said it last night on my reaction pod with Pina. It just felt like the Sixers and the Celtics swapped arcs in astonishingly fast fashion and that the Sixers became the team that they were always able to be on paper but never would be in reality. And then they became it and the Celtics became the team that I was low on before the season. It looked so foolish for being low on because they had shed so much talent because there was so much uncertainty about their big man rotation. And all those concerns just were completely invalid until they were immediately valid at the most pressing possible time. I wish you how many years has your dad been a season ticket holder?

[Bill Simmons]

54 if you're a 50. Absolutely furious.

[Chris Ryan]

If you've been a season ticket holder for 54 years, you can absolutely go up to Bill Chisholm and sarcastically congratulate him on ducking all the aprons you can give him you can gift him an apron. You should have bought him an apron with like, congratulations, we lost in the first round. Here's your apron. Go barbecue with this.

[Bill Simmons]

The only way to defend it is did they know Tatum was going to look like he did? They hoped he was going to look a lot like it, but they didn't know when they did that move because they also didn't have to do it. They thought Tatum was going to replace the Simons minutes, but they really miscouted Vucevich, it seems like, because he just was done. You could see it the moment he showed up in the team. Didn't look right, got hurt, came back, didn't look right, came in the playoffs, was clearly a disaster matchup against any, any Philadelphia big bad, basically. But especially when Embiid came back. They had to see two more games that. That wasn't going to work with him versus Embiid, and that was their big move. You know, they, they could have. I guess that if you're going to criticize them, I think they maybe could have flipped Vucevich for something else. But, you know, I think they thought he was. I think they thought he was going to help, like I really do, and it was just a misfire.

[Chris Ryan]

And the Tatum. You mentioned the Tatum comments today about, you know, it was inevitable something would happen. I remember saying, like, I'm a little hesitant to crown Boston as the favorites because I just, I remember making this gesture of ups and downs. There's going to be ups and downs with Tatum recovering from this injury, and there just weren't any. And I just sort of let myself believe, and I think everybody else did that there would. I guess there's. This is just a medical marvel. There are not going to be any downs. He's playing a ton of minutes. He's playing awesome. They've been the best team in the East. And then at the worst possible time, there was that. We don't really even know what happened, when it happened, what the injury is, but I don't.

[Bill Simmons]

I just don't believe it was the knee either. I know they had to say that, but it was during the game. You could see it was his calf and they had the stuff on his. The wrapped around his calf. And, you know, I think he. It was unclear whether he was cleared to play or not. I thought his, his words were interesting about him and his trainer decided not to play. So clearly they didn't feel comfortable with it. And I don't think they should have. I don't think it was worth it. They Weren't gonna win the title this year, let him go. But to find out after the season that his right leg was only 85% of his left leg or whatever, or that, like didn't have the. He's not going to be able to build the calf up fully until, you know, the summer. That's. Well, why were you playing 42 minutes a game then?

[Chris Ryan]

The whole thing is a little bit. A little bit strange. But Philly went and took the series from him and Philly went. And this is. I mean, the conversation I really want to have with you is like, so what now? Like, you're not like. Like, I don't know. I just would say, what, what now for the Celtics?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, first I have to go to the doctor and see if they can find a cure for we got great looks disease. Because that's been three of the last four playoffs of losing a game and then talking about how great the looks were after this. And by the way, the looks were great because they were coming back at the end. They got four straight awesome shots and they missed all of them and that's why they lost.

[Chris Ryan]

So this was always my. And I would go back and forth playfully with Mike Budenholzer about it. It was my thing with every Budenholzer team that would be eliminated from the playoffs. It was like, well, we just. The shooting luck went against us. And it was why I would always make fun of the Celtics. Like, well, congratulations. You can hang the banner for like expected effective field goal percentage champions of 2026.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, this is Daryl Morris with the Rockets too. Same thing.

[Chris Ryan]

You have four. It's great that you had an unbelievable expected effective field goal percentage. It's awesome. That's a wonderful process. And yeah, you just missed. Well, all you got to do is just miss three times in seven games and then have another game where the team outplays you substantially or whatever and then your season is over. It's not a hundred game series. It's like a very finite amount of time. And if this thing isn't working, the right answer isn't always just keep doing the thing until it works. You got to have some other thing. I mean, this has been my thing with Boston forever. It doesn't. They want a title. The fact is they want a title. They have a great core. I'm not sure what, if anything, they can really do in the off season.

[Bill Simmons]

Pritchard let them down in this series too, other than his 1. Game 4.

[Chris Ryan]

So great.

[Bill Simmons]

Game 4. Great. Game 4. And other than that, I don't I forget. Hold on, I'm going to queue up his stats. He just. He just wasn't good enough in the series. And the shot that killed me, Jalen missed a couple. Hauser had one around the rim, but the one that killed me was 2 minutes left. K makes a great play at the rim, comes back down, Cada's running the floor and Bede's jogging back. Kate is outrunning him. Brown, it would have been a tough pass to him. There's some Celtic fans today that were like, oh, Jalen missed, miss Kada. It's the ball. Ended up in the right spot. It was Pritchard in the corner wide open to take a lead and he missed it. And I would take that shot a hundred times out of 100. And if he makes that shot, I honestly think they win. I think the crowd, my dad said the crowd was as loud as any crowd they've had for a playoff game. During the, during the comeback, like he was like. The energy was electric. It was. We could not get over the hump and all we needed was that one shot and it just never went in. But I would have taken my chances with that shot. You know, I would have bet my life he was going to make that shot.

[Chris Ryan]

That's why sports are so cool. And I know it's not a great day for Boston fans, but I've seen that game so many times in my head and in my life. And what happens is that shot goes in, the crowd goes bananas, and a team on the other end with a history of postseason letdowns and hiccups just sort of melts down a little bit and the game peters out and the Celtics win. In your soul? In my soul, like when that shot goes up, that's what I'm envisioning. And it went completely the other way. Not only did the shot miss, but Philly and Maxim.

[Bill Simmons]

That's a three point play.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, but he like rose up under that kind of pressure in a hostile environment and put the game to bed.

[Bill Simmons]

And that.

[Chris Ryan]

It was just like a very against script kind of ending.

[Bill Simmons]

Even in the bar, it was a. Oh, it was like one of the. So I can't even imagine what it was like to be there. Well, PJ, PG and maxi from three were 45 for 95.

[Chris Ryan]

Wow.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know if that's replicable against the Knicks and the Knicks. I mean there's a whole bunch of reasons the Knicks are a better matchup than the Celtics were embiid in those four games was in the game seven. He was 28, nine and seven. He missed 150 regular season games in the last three years and magically turned back into Joe Embiid at the worst possible time for the Celtics. I was thinking about it. I saw the Sixers play two games during the season that I thought made them intriguing as a dark horse. One was against the Celtics, and then Embiid got hurt right after that, I think. Then there was another one. I want to say it was against maybe the Knicks on a Saturday or maybe they gave somewhere around that range when they played the Knicks and were really going toe to toe with them. And I was just like, man, there really is a ceiling with this team.

[Chris Ryan]

But we all do that, right? Like, we. This is.

[Bill Simmons]

I know, but think about it. They played so six good games all year probably, and they're in round two now.

[Chris Ryan]

There's a reason that we just never thought we would see the apex version of this team for any prolonged period of time. And by the way, we still have to see it for a prolonged period of time because now it gets every other day, you know, for the rest of the way. And obviously this is a pretty soft travel schedule for them. Philly New York is an easy trip and all that, but the stat I will keep just hammering about and always Max C. Always Maxi. And in this series, Embiid is those two combined for all the heavy lifting they do on offense. 3.3 combined turnovers per game, 2 per game for Embiid, who's had a history of like bad turnover games in the playoffs and 1.3 for Maxi. And Maxi never turns the ball over. It's one of his secret superpowers. He just never turns it over. And like, that's a, that's a astonishingly low number for those two guys combined.

[Bill Simmons]

This episode is brought to you by Sephora. You know, moms, obviously the best. Whether you have a mom or you're married to a mom or you have both, they definitely deserve the best. When it comes to Mother's Day gifts, you could just go basic. You could do flowers, chocolates, whatever. But if you want to get a little more inventive, here's what you do. It's very simple. Just head to Sephora, choose a gift that shows how much she is appreciated. It could be a skincare set for a self care ritual. It could be a fragrance that's uniquely her. It could be any kind of beauty gift from Sephora that will make it easy to put a smile on her face. Think outside the box shop Mother's Day Gifts at Sephora. This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. Look, I already have my dream job. I run the ringer, argue with Chris Ryan, AKA cr. But even dream jobs have not so dreamy parts. You know, the work that slows you down never seems to go away. That's where ServiceNow's AI specialists come in. They're like digital teammates who actually do the job start to finish, no handoffs, no homework. That means more time for the work that actually matters. Which for me is talking about whether the 86 Celtics can beat the 96 Bulls, which they could. To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit ServiceNow.com where is Maxi for you now in the best players in the league list, I'm just going to read you the best players. Well, I had him on.

[Chris Ryan]

I had him on all NBA, third team, all NBA.

[Bill Simmons]

I think I'm going to read you right now.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

You wouldn't put them against. You wouldn't put them over Joker, SJ or Wemby. So let's cross them off.

[Chris Ryan]

Feels premature.

[Bill Simmons]

No, I mean right now.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I know. No, yeah, no, it would feel premature to put him over those guys.

[Bill Simmons]

You wouldn't put him over Luca? No. Would you put them over Ant healthy?

[Chris Ryan]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, so there's six. Would you put him over Cade? Now that's kind of an argument.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. You get into this morass of like Brunson, Mitchell, Cade, you know, Curry is still in there and it's just a bunch of guards that are just depending on your taste, depending on your face.

[Bill Simmons]

And he might have a case. Yeah, so he might have a case to be the number one guy in that. So that's the seventh spot. Unless you want to put Giannis over all of those guys.

[Chris Ryan]

I think Giannis still belongs over all those guys. And I definitely remember Ringer100 doing it every month. There was a. He was around like 10, 11, 12 a lot for me during the season. I don't know where I had him on my latest one, but I definitely remember one in particular when I moved him up like very early in the season from 19 to 11. And it felt like, yeah, that's about where he is right now.

[Bill Simmons]

So this goes back to one of my favorite dumb topics, the all time aberration 2020 Covid draft just zooms. And maybe some illegal workouts with guys wearing masks on where Edwards goes first and then Wiseman goes second off of three college games, LaMelo third. It goes Patrick Williams, Isaac Okoro, 4, 5, Killian Hayes is 7, Denny is 9.

[Chris Ryan]

It's a great pick.

[Bill Simmons]

Calibert is 12.

[Chris Ryan]

Denny must be doing great for the Wizards these days. It was a great pick by the Wizards at number nine.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, they got credit for that. Your guy Poku was 17.

[Chris Ryan]

Wait a second. My guy Poku?

[Bill Simmons]

Your guy Poku?

[Chris Ryan]

How did that happen?

[Bill Simmons]

And then listen to this. The 20s.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Tyrese Maxey, 21. Yeah, quickly. 25. Pritchard, 26, Jaden McDaniels, 28, and Bane, 30. Well, we're gonna have to do a redraft of this draft this summer for fun.

[Chris Ryan]

It sounds great.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, fucking bonkers. Like, how does this happen?

[Chris Ryan]

Well, you're just leaving out so many guys who are in the twenties. Leandro Bulmaro. I literally don't even remember him.

[Bill Simmons]

He played. It seems like he played 49 games. Whoever he was, he played four.

[Chris Ryan]

I. I just have no memory of him doing anything in the NBA. Not one thing. And all Raptors fans know this draft well because they picked Malachi Flynn one spot ahead of Desmond Bain.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, that pick traded by the Boston Celtics, and then the second round is just pretty much a train wreck. It's Sam Merrill at 60. And. And I didn't know.

[Chris Ryan]

I forgot Sam Rail was Mr. Irrelevant. That's right. Isaiah Joe's in there.

[Bill Simmons]

Vick Kreche. But yeah, just the. The twenties of that draft. Getting Tyrese Maxey. So this to, you know, my guy Darrell, I think not only saved his job with the series, but I think you got to look back at, like, Maxi. The Edgecomb pick, the Paul George, even though Embiid and Paul George were 1 and 2 in the worst contracts draft. Now that's looking better. I think Daryl sticks around now.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, I. That's one of the ripple effects I meant to mention last night is I think Nurse and Maury both are have. But the crazy thing about Maxi and Edgecomb is the Sixers were, like, very, very close to getting neither of those guys. It took a Mike Muscala avalanche of threes on the last day of the season to flip that Maxi pick into Philadelphia's possession. And then at the lottery last year, it looked like they were not. They were going to give their pick to Oklahoma City. And then they moved up, up to number three and got Edgecomb. So, like, this is what this. This is what it turns on sometimes. It's like it's a multiple sliding doors within sliding doors.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, as we discussed, those sliding doors.

[Chris Ryan]

Is.

[Bill Simmons]

Is Jalen on the Celtics next year?

[Chris Ryan]

Why did it take you so long to get here? This is the most exciting moment of the podcast.

[Bill Simmons]

This is. We're going to wrap up here and then go watch this other game and come back for a part two.

[Chris Ryan]

So tell, tell me the ration. Tell me, tell me the rationale. Do you want, if, if are you trading him to just reset the finances, restock the assets and go to Jayson Tatum and Derek White and be like, I know we just won 57 games or whatever. That was supposed to be the gap year. This is going to signal to you that this might actually be the gap year? Or are you trying for some sort of three for one that fits better, one for one that fits better and

[Bill Simmons]

like four, you get younger in the trade with a cheaper guy in the spot.

[Chris Ryan]

Are you, are you going for it next year or are you taking a step back next year?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, I think you're going for it next year.

[Chris Ryan]

So then I don't know what I'm

[Bill Simmons]

on the record as I want Jaylen Brown to play his entire career with the Celtics. I get in arguments about him. I hate the stupid plus minus thing that goes around with him. When people look at the moment he comes out, they're way better if it him, it happened yesterday. I just like Jaylen Brown. I think he plays hard and he's durable and I think he's aged about as well as you could expect from a 10 year forward in the league. This would be the time to trade him right now because 57, 61 and 65 the next three years, money wise, Tatum's 58, 62 and 67. And if you're going to make a case to trade them, it's like, can you just afford two guys making that much money?

[Chris Ryan]

So I've, I have not sat and

[Bill Simmons]

you've won a title with them.

[Chris Ryan]

I have not sat and played around with the Jaylen Brown trade machine. I suspect that you have and you might have some ideas. I don't know though.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean I, I haven't either and I haven't really wanted to do it. And also the loss just happened yesterday. But I, in my head it's something like, well, there, there's is, is the Giannis move, which I think they would be one of the contenders for Giannis and I think Jalen as an asset that either goes back to Milwaukee or goes to a third team and then that team gives their stuff to Milwaukee would be how that trade goes. Like a team like Atlanta, where he's from, a team that controls this Milwaukee situation with their pick this year. So it's something like that they could get super creative because they have this 27.7 million trade exception where you could take somebody back on a team that has cap space, like a Dyson Daniels, where you just take that back with Atlantis pick, put Daniels into the trade exception, trade Jalen. And now you have a max player trade. Except they'd have like the biggest trade exception of all time and see what you could do with that. Or you look at a team like New Orleans and could you just go, trey Murphy, Herb Jones in a contract. Trey Murphy, Jordan Poole in a pick, like something like that, where you're carrying the pool contract for a year. It's an expiring, but you've reset around a cheaper Jaylen Brown. Basically, that would be the mindset. I hope they keep them together. I'm just going to say that again and I'm going to keep saying it, but I would understand if these are the kind of discussions they're having in dark, depressing rooms right now.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I, I, again, having not gone through it, those two teams just look, I'm looking at the standings over here. Just jumped in, jumped into my head. I mean, I was trying to think like rockets flame out, is there something there? But I don't know what the trade would be. You know, I didn't think, I didn't think of the Pelicans, actually, that you kind of surprised me with that one in terms of like. But it's interesting.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, there's a lot. And I'm sure this will be a podcast topic at some point, but maybe Utah's another one. Like Utah.

[Chris Ryan]

They just did a lot of stuff, though. They just.

[Bill Simmons]

I know.

[Chris Ryan]

They just made some big, Some big moves.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but what about.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, how about. Can I give you another version of this scenario?

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Bill Simmons]

What if Jaylen Brown goes to the team and says, it's time I want my own team.

[Chris Ryan]

Why. Why is it. This is just. Are you, Is, Are you coping? Is this coping?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, this is coping. It's. It's been a dark 24 hours.

[Chris Ryan]

Then I applaud your.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, we've seen weirder things in the NBA than Jaylen Brown deciding I'd like my own team now.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, I just. Something just popped. A team that just popped in my head and we're about to go watch their game is like, if it's just a disaster, Cleveland loss in this game. You know, this is a team that just hasn't been able to fill a wing spot with a player like that. But he just, it's just hard. His contract is so big, and I don't know what they'll be thinking, but we'll see. We get. Maybe Cleveland will win by 30, and then would they be favored in the next round over Detroit? I have no idea. But that would be. That series is going to be wild either way.

[Bill Simmons]

Whoever it is, I vote for keeping them together because we've already seen them win a title.

[Chris Ryan]

It did happen.

[Bill Simmons]

Um, and I think that they can improve around the edges with this team, especially with the trade exception. I think Hauser probably, like, if we're going realistic, I think Hauser gets traded because you can, he's 10, 11 and 12. You can. I think a lot of teams could use somebody like him. And you could just move Shireman and Hugo into those minutes. Right. And then that 27.7. I think you can get somebody good with that. And I think they'd want to bring Simons back. Simon's a free agent. They have their mid level to use. I could see him coming back. I thought they were a guard short this whole season anyway, so I think getting a guard and figuring out another big man to put with Keda would be the two things I would look at. But who knows? This is the NBA. We're prepared for anything at all times. And if Giannis is actually on the table and says at some point, like, I'd love to go to Boston and play with Jason Tatum, like they're going to try to have conversations about that. They just lost in round one. I feel the same way about Denver. Like they, like Sean said today on espn, everyone's on the table for Denver except Jokic. They're accepting calls and that's how they should feel. They lost in round one with one of the best players of this century, and they should be thinking that way.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, that was kind of a no shit moment, but. Yeah, obviously.

[Bill Simmons]

But no, but that's significant that they said every player's on the table.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, because what's unsubscribed, that means Jamal

[Bill Simmons]

Murray is on the table.

[Chris Ryan]

I was going to say, when Aaron

[Bill Simmons]

Gordon's on the table.

[Chris Ryan]

What's unsaid is Jamal Murray, I mean, Aaron Gordon, the Aaron Gordon thing is just. We've unfortunately reached a point in which I, I, if I'm building the Nuggets, I have to. Now, if I were building the Nuggets, I would see all the medical records, I would know everything. But from the outside looking in, I just can't assume he'll stay healthy for an entire playoffs ever, ever again. The leg stuff just crops up over and over again. I don't really know what to do with that. They're just not close to the same team without him.

[Bill Simmons]

It goes back to what I asked you 20 minutes ago. Maybe your goal is just to get him healthy in April, May, June, and you're treating him like a car in the garage that you just take out for a spin once a week.

[Chris Ryan]

But can you even do that? Like you, you.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know.

[Chris Ryan]

You can find the sports science people on lots of teams. I know a lot of them who will tell you like that. Actually, there. There are sports science guys who will say the players aren't playing enough because it does them a disservice to try to ramp them up to like, okay, now you've. We've been treating you with kid gloves all season. The playoffs are here. You're going to play 42 super hard minutes every single game for the rest of the way.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

Even if you did that with Aaron Gordon, like, I don't know that he would be able to stay healthy for a month straight, even if you treated the regular season like a big. A big nothing. But anyway, we're far afield and we have a game seven to another game seven coming up. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So this is the end of part one. We're gonna come back after Toronto, Cleveland, a game that I think already has had two shots and maybe a gin and tonic before it even started. I am prepared for anything in this game.

[Chris Ryan]

You opened this podcast by saying all the crazy stuff that has happened over the last five days. And we forgot the RJ Barrett shot that hit the ceiling on the same goddamn rim as the Kawhi shot from seven years ago. Like, that was up there for a long, long time. And just whoop, it was Halliburton shot. But in Toronto and in Game 6,

[Bill Simmons]

don't forget the play that led up to RJ Barrett, Evan Mobley, for some reason being thrown the ball, even though he was the worst free throw shooter out there and seemed like got body checked from behind. I mean, we never saw the best possible replay of that. But all of a sudden the ball's out of bounds and it's Toronto's ball. And RJ Barrett, I didn't think it was going in. Did you?

[Chris Ryan]

When it went, when it bounced straight up at this point, I'm just saying,

[Bill Simmons]

when he was releasing it, did you think it was going in?

[Chris Ryan]

No. But when it bounced on the rim, I'm now conditioned to be like, it could be perfect, it could be going right up. And right now so I was actually not surprised when it went in. But yes, when Scotty Barnes sort of stumbles in there and kicks it out, you're like, it's not really what they were looking for. Down one and then, hey, boom, it goes in. And here we are. Game seven.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, we're going to watch Game seven and then we're going to come back for a part two that'll be a little shorter than this podcast. Thanks for letting me talk out the Celtics. Apologies to my dad for freezing out mine.

[Chris Ryan]

We just scratched the surface. I think there's more.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, fortunately we have many more podcasts coming. Thanks to Cahal and Eduardo as well. And we will be back on Netflix, ironically, right after game seven. See you in a little bit. Must be 21 plus on President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 Plus. I'm present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Game problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER-1-800, my reset, call 888-797-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincenetic or mdgamblinghelp.org and Maryland Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-Hopeny or text Hopeny in New York. For Louisiana, call 877-770-7867.

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[Chris Ryan]

Hi Ma.

[Bill Simmons]

Thanks for your unfiltered advice.

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Hi Mom.

[Bill Simmons]

Thanks for always being by the phone.

[Chris Ryan]

Hey Mom, Happy Mother's Day.

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