Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Summary

The Bill Simmons Podcast: Part 1 - NBA Trade Deadline Reactions with Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Introduction

In the February 6, 2025 episode of The Bill Simmons Podcast, hosted by Bill Simmons of The Ringer, the discussion centers around the NBA Trade Deadline, featuring insights from regular contributors Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre (Big Woz). This episode delves into the latest trades, team strategies, player performances, and the broader implications of the NBA's financial regulations. The conversation is rich with analysis, debates, and memorable quotes, providing listeners with a comprehensive overview of the current NBA landscape.

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Cleveland Cavaliers Acquire DeAndre Hunter

One of the primary topics is the Cleveland Cavaliers' recent trade, where they acquired DeAndre Hunter from the Atlanta Hawks in exchange for Lavert Niang and two second-round picks (timestamps [03:45]–[05:44]).

• Rob Mahoney's Skepticism: Mahoney expresses doubts about Hunter's fit with the Cavaliers, emphasizing his limited passing ability. He states, “DeAndre Hunter doesn't really do that” (04:00).

• Big Woz's Perspective: Lambre highlights Hunter's growth, noting his improved shooting and scoring. He remarks, “This year he’s actually making shots” (04:20).

• Bill Simmons's Analysis: Simmons underscores the strategic move by Cleveland to bolster their wing position for a potential playoff clash against the Celtics. He asserts, “Anytime you can get somebody under 20 who could play in the last five minutes of a round two playoff game, that's a pretty good deal” (05:31).

Notable Quote:

Bill Simmons [05:31]: “Anytime you can get somebody under 20 who could play in the last five minutes of a round two playoff game, that's a pretty good deal.”

Assessment of the Trade

The trio discusses whether the Cavaliers risk disrupting team chemistry by making this trade despite their current success. Mahoney and Lambre consider Cleveland's long-term prospects, suggesting that Hunter’s contract and potential make him a valuable asset moving forward ([05:44]–[06:13]).

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Jimmy Butler Joins Golden State Warriors

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around Jimmy Butler's trade to the Golden State Warriors, analyzing its impact on both teams and Butler's performance.

• Trade Dynamics: Simmons compares the trade to an "NBA 2K trade," implying it was strategically advantageous for Golden State without apparent drawbacks ([26:04]).

• Butler's Consistency: Concerns are raised about Butler's reliability, especially regarding his attendance and performance in crucial games. Simmons notes, “This was not one of those, oh, Jimmy made some threes and had a good game. Like he was fucking awesome” (26:04).

• Warriors' Future with Butler: Mahoney fears that Butler’s temperament and fit might create long-term issues for the Warriors, especially when integrating deeply with core players like Steph Curry and Draymond Green ([27:06]).

Notable Quote:

Rob Mahoney [26:04]: “Keeping Kuminga out of this thing. I'm keeping a Kaminga was amazing.”

Impact Analysis

Lambre posits that Butler brings significant motivation and tenacity to the Warriors, potentially revitalizing their competitive edge. However, Simmons warns of the potential for future conflict, especially if Butler's aggressive playstyle clashes with the team's dynamics ([30:13]–[31:13]).

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Miami Heat’s Strategic Moves

The Miami Heat's ongoing trade strategies are scrutinized, focusing on their management of key players and cap space.

• Player Movements: The Heat have acquired players like Tyler Herro and Duncan Robinson, adjusting their rotation and strategy to withstand playoff pressures ([33:07]–[35:02]).

• Cap Space and Trade Exceptions: Discussions highlight the Heat's maneuvering to maintain financial flexibility, allowing for future trades without significant penalties ([41:24]–[42:29]).

Notable Quote:

Bill Simmons [35:01]: “Where out of nowhere feels like they have a little bit more of an identity.”

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Sacramento Kings’ Trade Decisions

The Sacramento Kings' recent trades, including the acquisition of Lonzo Ball and Malik Monk, are analyzed for their strategic value and long-term impact.

• Trade Efficacy: Mahoney and Lambre debate the Kings' decisions, questioning the value received in exchange for established players like Lonzo Ball ([68:35]–[69:05]).

• Future Prospects: The team’s reluctance to fully rebuild is critiqued, with Simmons emphasizing the Kings' consistent position as a trade partner due to their strategic flexibility ([69:27]).

Notable Quote:

Big Woz [68:59]: “Their owner just doesn't like the idea of a complete tear down and rebuild.”

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Phoenix Suns’ Recent Moves and Kevin Durant’s Future

The Suns' maneuvers, including trading Mikal Bridges for Jusuf Nurkic and Birkan Yilmaz, are dissected for their implications on team chemistry and financial health.

• Trade Impact: Simmons criticizes the Suns for what he perceives as a lack of substantial gain from trades, expressing concerns about the long-term financial and team dynamics ([15:08]–[16:49]).

• Kevin Durant’s Situation: The potential return of Kevin Durant to the Warriors is speculated upon, with Mahoney and Lambre debating Durant's motivations and fit within the Warriors' framework ([59:37]–[62:38]).

Notable Quote:

Bill Simmons [16:16]: “They're constantly working in their house and they've just destroyed their house. Their house has no value left.”

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Toronto Raptors’ Trade Strategies

The Raptors' persistent trades, including acquiring Brandon Ingram, are examined for their alignment with the team's core philosophy and future aspirations.

• Trade Justifications: The trio questions the Raptors' rationale behind trading for players like Brandon Ingram, given his fit with the existing roster ([50:23]–[53:59]).

• Team Direction: Simmons and his guests express skepticism about the Raptors' direction, highlighting inconsistencies in their trade logic and player acquisitions ([54:04]–[57:36]).

Notable Quote:

Bill Simmons [53:29]: “It's a big role. And Kyle Anderson's one of the most Miami Heat guys.”

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Chicago Bulls and Washington Wizards’ Roster Moves

Trades involving the Chicago Bulls and Washington Wizards, particularly focusing on players like Chris Middleton and Marcus Smart, are analyzed for their strategic value and team fit.

• Bulls’ Positioning: The decision to trade key players like Zach LaVine is critiqued, with Simmons questioning the Bulls' cohesive strategy ([67:37]–[69:05]).

• Wizards’ Adjustments: The Wizards' acquisition of Marcus Smart is discussed, with concerns about his fit and the team's overall performance ([78:00]–[80:08]).

Notable Quote:

Bill Simmons [79:02]: “Like, I just feel like you're going to have the Ghost, you have Zombie Jimmy Butler, who's not an asset.”

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Player Performance and Team Dynamics

The podcast delves into individual player performances and their alignment with team strategies, highlighting both strengths and weaknesses.

• DeAndre Hunter: Discussed as a valuable but potentially underutilized asset for the Cavaliers.

• Jimmy Butler: His aggressive playstyle and potential friction within the Warriors are central to the conversation.

• Kevin Durant: Analyzing his reluctance to return to Golden State and his fit within potential new teams.

• Brandon Ingram: Scrutinized for his fit with the Raptors and overall contribution to team dynamics.

Notable Quote:

Bill Simmons [76:42]: “But he [Kevin Durant] just is. But I still think he could be a really great piece of a good team with Butler.”

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NBA Financial Regulations and Trade Strategies

A significant portion of the discussion addresses the NBA's Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) and its impact on trades, particularly focusing on the luxury tax apron rules.

• CBA Implications: Simmons and his guests debate how financial constraints and apron rules are shaping team strategies, leading to more frequent and sometimes questionable trades ([41:14]–[43:07]).

• Impact on Player Movement: The conversation highlights how these regulations limit teams' abilities to acquire or trade certain players, thereby influencing the overall competitiveness of the league ([57:36]–[58:02]).

Notable Quote:

Rob Mahoney [42:43]: “How do they figure out a wrinkle for this? Because if you're like a Miami fan, you just be like, what the fuck just happened?”

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the Trade Deadline approaches, the podcast wraps up with final assessments of the teams’ standings and potential outcomes.

• Playoff Predictions: The trio predicts which teams are likely to miss the playoffs, highlighting Sacramento Kings, Phoenix Suns, and Dallas Mavericks as likely contenders ([17:03]–[18:57]).

• Future Episodes: Bill Simmons teases Part 2 of the podcast, promising to cover the aftermath of the Trade Deadline and additional team analyses ([82:47]–[83:00]).

Notable Quote:

Bill Simmons [82:47]: “We're staying on YouTube. Don't leave. We're just ending part one of the podcast, which will go up pretty shortly.”

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Key Takeaways

• Strategic Trades: Teams like Cleveland and Golden State are making bold moves to strengthen their rosters, though these come with potential risks regarding team chemistry and long-term success.

• Financial Constraints: The NBA's CBA and luxury tax apron rules are significantly influencing trade strategies, leading to more calculated and sometimes controversial decisions.

• Player Fit and Performance: The success of trades heavily depends on how well players fit into their new teams’ systems and their performance post-trade. Players like Jimmy Butler and Kevin Durant are at the center of much speculation regarding their future impacts.

• Upcoming Changes: The Trade Deadline is reshaping team dynamics across the league, with significant implications for the upcoming playoffs and future seasons.

Final Thought

This episode of The Bill Simmons Podcast provides an in-depth analysis of the NBA Trade Deadline, offering listeners valuable insights into the complexities of team strategies, player movements, and the overarching financial landscape of professional basketball.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

Coming up, part one of our special live Trade Deadline extravaganza. Next, it's the Bill Simmons podcast, presented by FanDuel. Super Bowl 59 is here and you can bet on America's number one game with America's number one sportsbook any way you want. Fun markets, who have the most yards, tons of same game parlays, offensive titties in the next drive. So much more. It's the most fun thing about the super bowl for me. Other than watching the game. I love the super bowl props. You can also check out their super bowl squares. Pick your own numbers and make your pick for a kick of Destiny 3 between the Manning brothers. I'm picking Peyton Manning every time because Eli Manning took two Super Bowls from me so he can screw off. When you win, you'll get paid instantly. Download the app today and bet the big game with FanDuel, an official sportsbook partner of Super Bowl 59. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end of this episode for additional details. Must be 21 plus in President select states gamma problem. Call 100 GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com this episode is brought to you by Paramount. Ridley Scott's return to ancient Rome and Gladiator 2 is nothing short of awesome. And now you can stream it at home on Paramount. Years after the death of Maximus, Lucius is forced into the Coliseum after his home is conquered by a tyrannical twin Roman emperors. With the future of the empire at stake, you must find strength and honor to return the glory of Rome to its people. Gladiator 2 now streaming on paramountplus.com rated R. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast network put up a new rewatchables. On Monday night we did Before Sunset, the sequel to Before Sunrise was four of us. Me, Sean, Chris, Mallory. You can watch it on Ringer Movies YouTube channel. You could also watch Sean and Chris and I did a trailer reaction to the new Jurassic park movie, which I think is called Jurassic Park Money Bag. So you can watch that on YouTube as well. You can watch all the videos and clips from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. That's where we went live and we did a part one and a part two heading into the trade deadline. This is the part one that we started at 1:45 ET heading into the 75 minutes, right up to the trade deadline. We recapped a bunch of stuff that already happened, tried to Anticipate stuff. So when you listen to it, keep an ear for that. And then part two is coming a little bit later. That is everything. Right after 3pm, the official trade deadline and our final thoughts. Plus my million dollar picks for the super bowl, which we barely talked about this week. Sorry. Sometimes basketball wins. I hate to break it to everybody. Anyway, here is me, Rob Mahoney and Big Woz talking at NBA trade deadline, part one. Let's go. I don't know what my camera is, but this is the Bill Simmons podcast, YouTube Live, presented by Michelo Botro Superior Light Beer, the official beer sponsor of the NBA. That's Rob Mahoney. That's Big Woz. So we're about to go live here and a big trade happened. Cleveland gets DeAndre Hunter for Lavert Niang two second round picks. Second round picks, giant commodity wise. And then two first round swaps. We don't know what they are. I like this trade more than Rob because I like DeAndre Hunter. And you're like, go ahead, do your thing.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm a skeptic. I'm a DeAndre Hunter skeptic. I like players who will, on occasion pass. DeAndre Hunter doesn't really do that. And now he's granted, while not passing, had the best season of his career, by far, has scored and shot in a way that he never has before. That's all well and good, but when I'm imagining the Cleveland freewheeling offense, I want somebody who's going to move the ball, who knows how to play and flow. And that's not really what DeAndre Hunter.

[Bill Simmons]

Does to the point is that the vert, though. I mean, Lavert's a little ball stopper this year.

[Rob Mahoney]

It has been right. Like he's actually been like a good soldier within that context. And I take your point, but I think he's actually done a pretty good job of that exact thing this year.

[Bill Simmons]

You love the Hawks.

[Big Woz]

I did.

[Bill Simmons]

That's one of your surrogate teams.

[Big Woz]

Yeah, for sure. Especially when Jalen Johnson wasn't injured. But Hunter, I think this year has most often looked like the version of him that's been sold to us basically since he's been drafted, right, like this big physical guy who, who you know is really toolsy, but every now and again will make a shot and even create his own shot, which takes him past the three and D sort of element. The D has been hit or miss his whole career and even his shooting has been sort of hit or miss. But this year he's actually making shots.

[Bill Simmons]

And I think 39% from 3.

[Big Woz]

That's what I think attracted him to the Cavaliers.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you guys see the Cavs sell at the game the other night?

[Rob Mahoney]

Caught half of it.

[Big Woz]

I did.

[Bill Simmons]

I think this is a trade for a Celtic series where you're thinking we gotta go against Tatum and Brown for two weeks potentially. We need a wing with size. We're not totally fired up about this Lavert Yang situation. Can Hunter be the guy And I don't know. I like the trade. I don't care about swaps. Cleveland's gonna be good the whole decade. Niang and Levert, whatever, second round picks, whatever, like the. And Hunter's on a great deal. I think he's making like 17.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, it's not too bad.

[Big Woz]

This is the first year that it's felt like a great deal. That's the craz.

[Bill Simmons]

I think anytime you can get somebody under 20 who could play in the last five minutes of a round two playoff game, that's a pretty good deal.

[Big Woz]

Yeah, I think Hunter's another one of those guys like Rui who looks the part where it's like, oh, he's this big physical guy and we could get him to guard Tatum and Brown, but like in practice, he's just an offensive player. He's never been a defensive force at any point. Maybe in moments and possessions at a time, you've been like, wow, if he could just tap into that always. And so that's why I feel like he's available for, you know, a caris LeVert in second round picks where famously, you know, great guys get picked.

[Rob Mahoney]

I also like Cleveland going for it a little bit, you know, pushing in in a way that there are certain non negotiables on their roster like Darius Garland, Jared Allen, those guys are only going to play one position. But otherwise you want a little lineup flexibility. You want the ability to play, you know, Strus here or Dean Wade there or now DeAndre Hunter at the 3 4. Like there's. There's some options for Cleveland that I think are pretty appealing, not just for a Celtics matchup, but really just getting through the Eastern Conference alive.

[Bill Simmons]

It's risky to make a trade when you're doing really well, to just mess with the chemistry and the vibes of what you have. But going back to the Boston thing, like, I'm looking at Hunter's last season because I remember him just playing well against the Celtics, my favorite team. And they had. They played them four times last year in the regular season and he was good in three of the games. And Then they played in the playoffs. I can't remember what he did against the playoffs, but I don't know. I'm sure they're, they're trying to figure out Tatum and Brown. That's the mountain who's out there that's had some success against those guys. And then they're, you know, they're studying these Hunter things. I just don't really understand it from a Hawks perspective. Like, because they don't, they don't have their first round pick unless it's like, what is it, like top 10 protected? Yeah, something like that.

[Big Woz]

I think it's the. I think so is this.

[Bill Simmons]

Is the tank in motion now, Wes?

[Big Woz]

Of course. And I think the tank has been in motion once they decided that like when.

[Rob Mahoney]

When Jalen Johnson got hurt.

[Big Woz]

Yeah, it's.

[Rob Mahoney]

They really have not been able to function without him for the season.

[Big Woz]

And you know, Hunter's been there for so long. You know, he's been there long enough to get a rookie extension. Like, he's, he's not new. So in. In a certain sense, like he's a known commodity for them. So I can understand them being like, look, this thing has run its course. Let's get at least something out of this. And we're not the type of team where, where we're winning so much and he helps as this sort of ancillary part that will, you know, help us out, fill in the blanks. Rotation wise, it's just like, let's get something for him. We're going in.

[Bill Simmons]

So I just looked it up. They. That. That picks on protected that the spurs has.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. The one for 20, 25.

[Bill Simmons]

So it's not. You can't even call it a tank trade because what are they tanking for? To give San Antonio a better pick. And by the way, that pick I. The Deer and Fox thing, the more I think about it, unconscionable that Sacramento doesn't get that pick.

[Big Woz]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But they get two picks and they get this flimsy Charlotte pick that really turns into two seconds.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not real.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm just not. You watched Aaron Fox last night. I'm just not trading him unless I get that Atlanta pick. Especially after Jalen Johnson goes out. It's like that might be, you know, somewhere between 7 and 10. You're giving me that pick. If I'm trading Darren Fox, somehow San Antonio keeps it.

[Rob Mahoney]

But that's a team that they just dug themselves out of. The absolute Nadira vibes in Sacramento. Like it got so weird and so bad for their season and they finally get this momentum with Doug Christie. They finally have some things with their roster sorted out. I don't know that it's realistic to expect the Kings to just sit on a couple months of Dear and Fox pouting, if that's what it would have been.

[Big Woz]

Yeah. And to what end? Right? Like, I guess.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Big Woz]

The Hawks pick would. Is definitely valuable. Like, I could see it landing. What are they probably like in the 10 range or something like that, which, you know, of course is a. Is a valuable pick. But at the same time, when the guy says that he wants to go to San Antonio and San Antonio is clearly positioned to sign the guy outright if and when they need to or have to, and it's like the closer he gets to his free agency, the less valuable he becomes. I do wonder how much leverage they have in a situation to be like, screw that, you're giving me this. Cause the spurs season was going fine. Like, they could make the argument that, like, look, we don't need to bring Fox in right now. We like the way our young guys are coalescing around Wemby. The Chris Paul thing has worked out. Knock on Woody at even been hurt. And so there's no rush on our end. So they definitely could credibly say we could walk away from the table.

[Bill Simmons]

But then you see what happened last night and you're like, this is why you get Darren Fox.

[Big Woz]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You have this guy who's this really special potentially generational players in year two. We've seen the timetable of some of these guys goes way faster than we expect. Now, you had Fox. So Hunter. It was the 2023 playoffs when he played Boston, and he basically put up 17 and 6 37%. But I always felt like. I'm not saying he shut down Tatum or Brown, anything like that, but I always felt like, you know, he. It's the six, eight guys that are the guys that you want against us. So from a Cleveland standpoint, I just wonder like what that if that game changed their mindset at all. But I like. I like the trade for them. Big picture. So Butler happens yesterday. Not quite worthy of an emergency trade. Emergency trade pod.

[Big Woz]

Who. Who is worthy Until Saturday happened. I think if without Saturday, we definitely treat it as a monumental trade. Jimmy Butler's teaming up with Steph Curry and Draymond, like, that whole saga ends. It's a story. It's a jolt to the warriors season. It's just after Luka Doncic, we're broken.

[Rob Mahoney]

The meter is broken as well.

[Bill Simmons]

Tuesday night, when it seemed like Durant Might go to the warriors. And it was a three teamer with Butler going to Phoenix and whatever going to. That was emergency trade worthy. I was ready for that one yesterday with Butler after he sulked for four months and didn't want to go to Golden State. And then it was like, well, can we frame it as it's a two year extension? But it's really a one year extension because he was already under contract. So he made an extra, I don't know, 60, 61 million bucks, maybe 69 million bucks, whatever it is, to basically torpedo this Miami situation.

[Big Woz]

So that's.

[Bill Simmons]

Is that worth it? Would you do that for. Would you do that for $69 million wise? Would you just complete, completely torpedo a situation? So probably yes, he would do it for less.

[Big Woz]

So here's the thing.

[Bill Simmons]

How about $6.9 million?

[Big Woz]

So here's the thing. The Suns had agreed in principle to give him two extra years on top of what he already had in the bank for less.

[Bill Simmons]

That would be tampering if they did that. What do you mean you're not allowed to do that?

[Big Woz]

All of these reports about tell Golden State no or tell this person to go away or whatever. It's like holding out hope that Phoenix could somehow, by some miracle, get Bradley Beal out of there so they could bring Jimmy in and actually give him that extra year. Once that became not a possibility, it's like, all right, cool, we'll settle for Golden State. I want to get the hell out of Miami. It's only one year added. My agent's framing it as 120. It's really like 111, but whatever, you know, I think he was just really holding out for that extra year that Phoenix had promised him.

[Bill Simmons]

Can I give you. Can I do a performance theater of how the Miami Phoenix trade talks went?

[Rob Mahoney]

We would love it.

[Bill Simmons]

Just every couple days. What about Beal for Butler? No, Durant. We would do. Okay, we'll call you back three days later. Hey, Beal. Maybe for Butler.

[Rob Mahoney]

No, this is a Durant take on the Julie Delpy before sunrise fake phone call.

[Bill Simmons]

And I think it just went on and on. And every time Miami's like, no, Durant. We're not taking Bradley Beal. Nobody wants Bradley Beal. And then they're telling Butler, we're not taking Bradley Beal. And Butler's like, well, I'm gonna act like even a bigger dick. Like, fine, dude, we can just keep doing this. We're not trading you for Bradley Beal.

[Big Woz]

Bradley Beal. It's just like, at a certain Point Jimmy. It's worth it to take this to the summer. If Bradley Beal, who has a no trade clause, okay, it's not even just like, all right, we get Bradley Beal and it's like if something comes up, we could use this guy to move or whatever. He's still a good player. He's not worth the fifth highest salary in the NBA, but he's still somebod who can play, who can help a team. It's not the end of the world. Bradley Beal, where he gets to dictate terms to the team that he gets traded to. It just makes absolutely no sense without.

[Bill Simmons]

The no trade clause. Is he more tradable to you?

[Rob Mahoney]

He's gone. He's gone. I think it is the signature hang up of. It's not just like, oh, could you trade him to Miami or whatnot. It's there would be a taker on.

[Bill Simmons]

The market because you think you get him this season, you have next season, you can trade him as an expiring. But with the no trade, you're stuck with him for three years.

[Big Woz]

You literally can't trade him.

[Rob Mahoney]

You honestly cannot.

[Bill Simmons]

One of my many hot takes of this two part trade deadline podcast. I think Bradley Beal is playing kind of well for the Suns. Have you watched him lately? Like he's actually playing defense and he's playing hard and seems dedicated. He's been trying. I just don't want to pay him $50 million. But it's not like he's a disaster.

[Big Woz]

This is not. No, he's still somebody who contributes and I would say he could contribute to winning. It's just when you're paying somebody like that, you would hope he's like your on ball guy, your shot creator.

[Bill Simmons]

No, but w. What did we say when they made the trade? We like, this is stupid. This is too much money. Why are you doing this? We said it when Washington gave him the contract in the first place. Why are you doing this? This is too much money. Why'd you put the no trade clause in? This was a comedy of errors. And now Phoenix. So they made a trade. They did. They finally dumped Nurkic.

[Rob Mahoney]

Congratulations to them.

[Bill Simmons]

Nurkic, they used one of those three picks they got from that stupid trade they made with the 2031 first that they gave up that they're going to regret. And they got back, what was it? One of the Martins. They got back me.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Moves around every year. Yeah, they got back a couple seconds. Cause everyone loves seconds now. Gotta get those seconds. Get that 1 in 20 chance you might've gotten a player.

[Big Woz]

Sweet. It looks good in the team.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, one in 18 chance we maybe got a rotation guy.

[Rob Mahoney]

I have, I just have a very bad feeling. We're going to look at the total math of that. Breaking up the one pick into three. And it's going to be three deals that are basically like this. Like, basically use a first to dump Yousef Nerk.

[Bill Simmons]

To dump a dumb decision you made.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. To. To try to rebate. Another bad decision. The other ones. We'll see what happens. Maybe they pull her out of their hat this summer. Maybe there's even time left for them to figure something out here. I just, I think that was a blunder in itself.

[Bill Simmons]

The Suns are like somebody who remodeled their whole house and then built like a giant movie theater in the house. And then six months later we're like, why did we do this movie theater? We should have done. Wait, bring the contractor back. We've got to change that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Who is the movie theater in this, in this metaphor?

[Bill Simmons]

That was the Nurkage, whatever that, that the complicated DeAndre Ayton trade where they're like, we don't. We gotta get outta the Chris Paul business. If we turn him in. Deandre Ayton into Nurkic and Beal and we do all these swaps that kill all of our leverage, we'll be fine. And then six months later they're like, oh fuck, now what do we do? And they're just constantly working in their house and they've just destroyed their house. Their house has no value left. I mean, they paid 10 million and put in 10 million for a house that's now worth 7 million is destruction.

[Big Woz]

You know, a ninth seed in a play in or potentially an eighth is, is that destruction?

[Rob Mahoney]

Are we sure anymore that that's where they're going to end up? I think it's, it's striking. Looking at the rest of the bubble teams, all teams that are making moves right now, the scores. Let's talk about this.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Cause this is part of the Butler conversation.

[Rob Mahoney]

Definitely.

[Bill Simmons]

So if you look at the west, okc, Memphis, Houston, Denver and the Lakers, who we're going to talk about, The Lakers are 29 and 18 and I think arrow pointing up. I think all five of those teams are in the playoffs. Right. So there's one playoff non playing spot left. We have The Clippers at 29 and 22 looking a little creaky.

[Big Woz]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Minnesota 28 and 23. They've looked creaky the whole time. We have four teams with 25 losses. Dallas, Sacramento, Phoenix, Golden State. So now that's 11. And then we have San Antonio at 22 and 26 with some good vibes. There's 12 teams that have a chance. Four of those teams are not going to make the playoffs. And I can stare at that list forever. And it's like, what would your. Who would your four be? Like, who's your number one? Would you have San Antonio as your number one pick for not making the playoffs?

[Rob Mahoney]

I. I think they might be just. Just because they're a little further behind. I mean, too far behind with two games back. Sounds insane, but it's more that there are one lost back. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So if they went on like a five game winning streak, they'd be in the ballpark.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

So that would be. Would you agree with that?

[Big Woz]

I would say the spurs are the first ones out for sure.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, so now it gets fun. Who's your number two pick for. Sorry, the west is too loaded. You're not making the playoffs.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think it might be the Suns.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it is.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think it might be the Suns.

[Big Woz]

And I will probably go Sacramento. But I understand the Sun's skeptic skepticism for sure.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, can I give you the fanduel ads? See, this is cheating. Spurs +370 has the highest odds not to make the playoffs. So they agree with us on that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Who do they have?

[Bill Simmons]

Second and say I ruined my own draft. I should have looked at this after Sacramento plus 290.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, yeah.

[Big Woz]

Sacramento to me is the clear second.

[Rob Mahoney]

I feel like that's a little bit of Zach Lavine disrespect, you know?

[Big Woz]

Is it?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think the Malik Monk, Zach lavine Sabonis thing is going to be pretty decent. They brought in Jonas Valanchunas, which is not nothing.

[Bill Simmons]

They basically have thrown away the point guard position. But when you watch them, especially in crunch time, it kind of makes sense with Malik like running stuff and it's not that crazy. And then I, when they did the Valanchunist trade, I was like, what the fuck is that? That makes no sense to me. You can't play him and Sabonis at the same time. And I was like, wait a second. And I started getting like flashbacks to bad Phoebe games. And I'm like, oh, those guys were teammates. And then you go read it and those guys are boys. They've played with it. They've figured out how to weirdly either play with each other or not. And they got them for free. And they just have all these professional veteran basketball players. I would put Phoenix over them. Phoenix is +198 on FanDuel to make the playoffs. I think the Phoenix thing like that, the, the stuff you hear like through the grapevine about like the locker room shocking our guy coach Bud, maybe a little Donnie Nelson on the Knicks ish where it's just like not working out at all. You're not going to be this was. But it seems KD might be on another unhappy team. There's been no track record of that over the years.

[Big Woz]

That's never happened. Literally.

[Bill Simmons]

Booker looks just miserable at all times.

[Rob Mahoney]

Weird year for him.

[Bill Simmons]

And. And then Beal is getting heckled at home games. So I would have them second in Sacramento third. You, what do you have? What's your order for the time?

[Rob Mahoney]

I would say about the same. I want to put this out there not because I want it to happen, but because I fear it could happen if the Dallas Mavericks do not make the playoffs. As a son of Dallas, I would like to be able to go home again. And I feared that the city would be raised to the fucking ground.

[Bill Simmons]

So Dallas is minus 110 and Golden State is plus 1 26. And I gotta be honest, I would bet on Golden State to make the playoffs over Dallas. I think this Dallas thing could go bad. We haven't had the three week Kyrie injury. I don't trust AD's health. The team's weird there. There's big three stuff going on, but Clay's in the big three. It's like we're done 2020's Clay. The big three is out. And also the fan base is so angry and so hostile and the vibes are just so brutal that I could see it tailspinning. I really could.

[Big Woz]

I think the theory that you replaced Luca's production or lack of production because he's not on the floor with A.D. who's like, you know, played at an all star starter level damn near the whole year and you become this defensive juggernaut. I. I think the theory is sound there. Specifically in the regular season if they're just like, you know, a really hard nose like we grind out games defensively team in the regular season that I don't buy it as a. As a playoff.

[Rob Mahoney]

They did get the better Martin brother.

[Big Woz]

Yeah, you know, Martin. Unfortunately Boston doesn't play in this conference. So I don't know how good Caleb Martin can be.

[Bill Simmons]

I just think not what they needed by the way.

[Big Woz]

I just think a motivated Jimmy actually fitting a Golden State need meaning somebody who can do something off the dribble that isn't Steph Curry and you know, can play defense even though he's not what he used to be at all. He used to be an ace defender. He's not that. But he's way more than competent and just the motivational factor. I think the Fu Jimmy factor is going to be at a very high level. And Draymond super competitive guy. I understand why the odds are such.

[Bill Simmons]

Golden State 25 and 24, Dallas 26 and 24 and my guess is you got to get to maybe 46 wins to be it's not just about being one of the six playoff teams, but you want to be seven or eight. You don't want to have to win the two road games in a row. I want to talk about the Jimmy Fu factor. We're going to take a break for the podcast. Sometimes in basketball, 30 points could be worth more than 30 points and now you can get a 30% profit boost from the Ringer with Fanduels 30 on 30 during Friday's NBA Fanduel the Ringer teaming up to give you a 30% profit boost when either pick a player to score more than 30 points or bet on our new exclusive 30 on 30 special markets. Like any game. Just looking at the Friday slate, I don't know. You could ride the SGA train. He's dropping 50 points left and right. He's playing Toronto. They can't guard anybody. You could do Cade Cunningham against Philly. You could do Giannis against Atlanta. I like that one. There's some good ones. I'll tweet out my picks when we get to Friday, but if you want to ride those or make them your own, look for 30 on 30 on America's number one sportsbook, FanDuel Sportsbook in their app. Or head to FanDuel.com BS for your chance to score a bigger payout this Friday. Don't miss your chance to find out how much 30 can be worth with FanDuel's 30 on 30 must be 21 + in President Select States or 18 + in President DC. Opt in required bonus issued as non withdrawable profit boost. Token restrictions apply including any token expiration and max wager amount. See [e-mail], gamble problem. Call Win 800 Gambler or visit rg-help.com this episode is brought to you by Pepcid. Complete. We all know that one of the best parts of game day is the food. On Sundays, nephew Kyle comes over. Sometimes we'll get healthy. We'll get some salads. Sometimes we'll get a little ambitious, we'll get some sandwiches. It's always the best part of my food week. While. Well until heartburn strikes, then it's not as great. You get heartburn from time to time. Gotta watch out. You don't wanna be rolling around in bed all night. Thankfully Pepcid complete starts to work instantly. It lasts all day. Just one great tasting chewable tablet provides dual action heartburn relief with an antacid that starts working instantly and an acid reducer that lasts all day. So you can stay focused on that second sandwich, that second second helping. A salad not Harper. Visit Pepcid.com to shop now all day based on eight hour symptom relief studies during the day. Use product only as directed. This episode is brought to you by Peloton. Life's always changing. One season you're trying to break personal records and the next you're just looking for a solid routine. Peloton is here for all of it. With workouts that flex to fit your schedule. Whatever it looks like you've got options from four week strength programs to running, cycling and everything in between. Peloton's got the tools to adapt to whatever goal you're chasing in this season of your life. And here's the real kicker. With Peloton's all access membership, you can work out wherever you need to at home, on the bike, tread or row or even on the go with the app. Take your favorite classes with you to the gym, on the road, wherever. So whatever you're aiming for that 5am Club or squeezing in a late night session, Peloton is ready whenever you are. Find your push. Find your power with Peloton at 1peloton.com. So, and I've said this before and, and, and I feel really strongly about it, I actually thought that was a great trade for Golden State. I don't think they gave up really anything. I know they love Danger Wiggins, but just fundamentally it was a, it was an NBA 2K trade where you're just cheating the system and you're basically just turning Wiggins into Butler.

[Rob Mahoney]

Keeping Kuminga out of this thing. I'm keeping a Kaminga was amazing.

[Bill Simmons]

The detected pick, whatever the key to me would be, if you're looking at it going is Butler still good? Can he still be that guy? Because we didn't see it last year. He, you know, he kept missing games, missed the playoffs. This year was spotty. And I think I talked about this bar on a pod but like five, six weeks ago he had a game in Detroit when He was just awesome. Yeah. And that was. You can go back, you can watch it on league pass. That's all you need to see. This was not one of those, oh, Jimmy made some threes and had a good game. Like he was fucking awesome. He was pissed off. I think he was mad at Miami. I think this was his like trade value audition tape and he just ran amok in this game and I just think that's what he's going to do in Golden State. I don't know if it's going to last two months. I don't know if it's going to last a year and two months. I think two years from now it could be a catastrophe for them where they're just like, oh my God, we have Draymond and this guy. What the hell? But short term, with Curry's window, you got to do it.

[Big Woz]

Two couple things that I love about the deal. One, it pays deference to the end of the Steph era. So Jimmy's deal basically coincides with, you know, Steph Steel. Two, Jimmy Butler is a maniac. He's going to be extremely motivated and he's an upgrade to what Andrew, you can say whatever you want. He is a clear talent. Upgrade to Andrew Wiggins sort of. Sometimes here, sometimes there, whatever. And then third, I like that it just clarifies the Kaminga stuff because with these young guys we see it all the time when they're in these trade rumors for an entire season, it's like, all right, that's now been clarified. You're going to be here. This is what the team looks like. Let's go. I'm really high on this for Golden.

[Bill Simmons]

State unless Kamingo is traded the next.

[Rob Mahoney]

Hour, which he might be. But even preserving him to potentially include him in another deal is important. And I think the Jimmy Wiggins comp like Andrew Wiggins has had a perfectly fine season. I don't mean to diminish it, but Jimmy is a totally different level of creator and most importantly, he is a go to scorer, as we've discussed, but also a point trigger man for a lot of the Steph Curry off ball stuff in a way that Wiggins is just not comfortable doing. And so now you have another person who can do that in addition to Draymond, in addition to Bajemski. If you have him in that role, like you have someone who can actually make some plays for the way Golden State wants to play.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, there's the crunch time piece, but there's also the every four games he's just Going to be awesome in a game right now, this warriors team, unless Steph is awesome. You saw it last night against Utah. They can just suck for five minutes and all of a sudden blow a game. They've blown a lot of uncharacteristically close games. You know, I'm going to say this, knocking on wood. I love Steph. He's at a different point of his career. Yeah, he can still hit the heights, but he can't do it nearly as consistently.

[Big Woz]

Put a team on his back.

[Bill Simmons]

No, it's not 2022. Final step is not. He's at a different point of his career. He just is. But I still think he could be a really great piece of a good team with Butler. The question for me is, that Detroit thing that he did that I saw, is that like a once every two weeks thing? Could he dial that up? Could he carry them? Because they're going to kind of need to jump on his back. And then when Kaminga comes back, if they keep him and now they have some scoring off the bench, they have less guys in the team, which I think was a weird thing for them, too. They had like 12, 13 guys that needed to play now that now they've got the numbers down. But I just thought fundamentally it was an awesome trade. I still don't feel great about it as a basketball fan, but I just think that's. We just had these moments where this guy who's making 52 and then 52 next year, it's not even the final year of his deal, he has a contract next year with a player option he can opt into. And he's just decided, I don't like my situation anymore, I'm going to torpedo it. I really feel like whenever the next CBA comes up, how do they figure out a wrinkle for this? Because if you're like a Miami fan, you just be like, what the fuck just happened? We just turned Jimmy Butler into Andrew Wiggins.

[Big Woz]

I mean, how do you. It's like if you're playing a game of chicken against a guy who's willing to die, like, how do you win?

[Bill Simmons]

Right?

[Big Woz]

Like, I just don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

He's Dom Toretto. In every fast appearance.

[Big Woz]

He'S willing to do so. Like, how do you win versus that? And, you know, and again, I personally wouldn't have carried it the way Jimmy did. The way he's obviously looking at it, it's like, this is literally his last payday ever in the NBA. Major payday. And he's looking at it like, I Have to do whatever I have to do to make sure I secure that win. And unfortunately, it got ugly. And I can understand feeling entitled. It got.

[Bill Simmons]

It was like, got disfiguring.

[Big Woz]

Yeah, it was bad.

[Bill Simmons]

It was like Vanilla Sky, Tom Cruise face.

[Big Woz]

And I've been. I've been carrying Jimmy Water just in the sense that he's overachieved. He was an A plus player for Miami for what they did when they got him, what the expectation was and what he actually delivered. And for him to feel like, yo, like, why won't you place faith in me that I'm going to over deliver again, as I've done my entire tenure year? So, like, him being like, yo, this is a slap.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but that's. That's a tough one to say though, when you're just missing games left and right last year, which I think was Miami's problem. It's like, dude, we're not. First of all, you're under contract for this year and next year and play more. But then Riley did the old guy thing.

[Big Woz]

That was.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's what he does, though.

[Bill Simmons]

He did it to LeBron two days before LeBron left. And LeBron took it personally. I kind of love every time he does it. But the question is, do you need an old crazy guy running your basketball franchise? Because he clearly doesn't. He gives no shits anymore.

[Rob Mahoney]

He does not. But it's also not a coincidence that, like, every star leaves Miami kind of feeling like this, you know, like by the end, it's always ugly. There's no peace, full transitions of power.

[Bill Simmons]

Even Hassan Whiteside, he's like, I'm. I just wish it ended better. So they also got golden states first, which is top 10, protected for two years in a run, then unprotected. I'm not scared. I still have staff during that home run. Poor Dennis Schroeder, man. Can the guy just find a. Can he just find a house? Unfortunate remarks about culture because last time I checked, every professional sport has trades.

[Big Woz]

Oh, God. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But I. He's kind of stuck in this new rule with the apron, where if you're over 12.8 million, nobody who's over a certain apron can buy you out.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think it's if you're over any apron at all, first or second, you can't.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought there was like a 12.8 million level too, for like certain. So there's like eight teams he just can't even get bought out and go to.

[Rob Mahoney]

Basically, if your contract is just over the non taxpayer, full mid level, which his is, like, by a hair, like, just barely. Then you can't sign over any sign with any apron team. It's a buyout guy.

[Bill Simmons]

One thing I didn't get with Miami because I actually. There was a world where they just get Wiggins, Kyle Anderson, and Schroeder for. For.

[Rob Mahoney]

It feels like they basically just said, we don't want.

[Bill Simmons]

We'd rather have cap space.

[Rob Mahoney]

But it's telling when a team like the Heat, who say what you will about their personality management. Yeah, they're pretty good talent evaluators. And they have just decided, thanks, but no thanks on Dennis Schroeder.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I'll just tell you my dad and I talking last night. Miami just has a slew of guys who killed the Celtics. And Dennis Schroeder kills the Celtics for some reason. Wiggins had a lot of success against them in 22. Kyle Anderson's just weird in general. And we were like, I hope they don't keep all these dudes because if we see them in like a 27.

[Big Woz]

Series, you really worried about this version of the Heat.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm always worried about Miami. I'm always worried about them. Never not worried about the Heat.

[Rob Mahoney]

So right now, the Heat are three games out of the fourth seed in the East.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

And this. This is their new rotation. They got Tyler Hero and Terry Rosier, more or less running point.

[Big Woz]

Scary Terry.

[Rob Mahoney]

Duncan Robinson. They brought in Davion Mitchell from the Raptors.

[Bill Simmons]

Another guy who I've always kind of liked him on a decent team.

[Rob Mahoney]

Andrew Wiggins, of course, Haywood Highsmith. Jaime Hawkez. Bam's been playing the four with Khalil Ware. Nicola Yoga.

[Bill Simmons]

Where it's been good for like a month.

[Big Woz]

Where is very good.

[Rob Mahoney]

And Kyle Anderson. Tell me that is not the most Miami Heat ass team you've ever heard.

[Bill Simmons]

Kyle Anderson's one of the most Miami Heat guys.

[Big Woz]

They're definitely going to be an annoying team to play against. I just think this version of Boston is just.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, I'm not worried about them for Boston. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Big Woz]

That makes.

[Bill Simmons]

That makes two of you. I don't want to play Miami. They fucking pull Jedi mind trick shit against Boston.

[Big Woz]

They definitely have a bunch of solid rotation guys. It's just like, who individually are you scared of in a series?

[Bill Simmons]

Who do you think? What do you think Terror would bet on? Too soon. Come on. He was absolved. Stop it.

[Rob Mahoney]

Segment is sponsored by FanDuel.

[Bill Simmons]

The Miami has cap space now. They're under the tax. They have a trade exception. And maybe they'll do one more Thing before. Before the 45 minutes from now deadline. I don't know, man. The way Hero's playing, Bam's been playing better.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Where out of nowhere. Feels like they have a little bit more of an identity. They have some shooting. We'll see if they can get more from Roger, who's been really bad ever since they made that trade. But just as a Sneaky. You're down 2:1 in the series against them. Wondering what happened. I still feel like they're on the radar for me. Nobody else in the east is. That's the only team. Once you get past the four seed, that's the only team I'd be like a little worried about in a series. Do you have anybody else?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think the Bucks are still interesting enough and I think the Magic, if they ever get their shit together, are. Are still interesting. Yeah, I guess they've got a lot to figure out offensively though.

[Bill Simmons]

I guess the Bucks, now that they got Kuzma because he was red hot. I mean, he was playing great this season.

[Rob Mahoney]

Can we talk about that?

[Bill Simmons]

He was doing great this season.

[Rob Mahoney]

What does the apology sound like these days?

[Bill Simmons]

I'd never seen plus minuses that could get to like minus 59.

[Big Woz]

He hasn't played on an actual NBA team for five years. This is year five in NBA Siberia.

[Rob Mahoney]

He had his choice. That was his choice. He had options to leave play for competitive teams. For example, Fair.

[Big Woz]

Maybe he was looking out for a better championship situation. I just think in 2020 on the Lakers, he was the ultimate role guy.

[Bill Simmons]

Is he really doing this?

[Big Woz]

Yes. 2020, he was the ultimate role guy. Again, the last two good players he played with were Brad Beal and Who is this?

[Rob Mahoney]

Bob Carrington?

[Bill Simmons]

Rob, is this happening right now?

[Big Woz]

Listen, at this point, defensive Falcon, cutter, Great cutter. Not a great shooter, but can make open shots when called upon.

[Bill Simmons]

OK, how about terrible shooter? He's shooting like 27% from 3.

[Big Woz]

I would say shot quality has been horrible on a team that's going nowhere.

[Bill Simmons]

He has shown no professional pride whatsoever this season.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's been actively bad.

[Bill Simmons]

I just think he looks like he is on autopilot.

[Big Woz]

I just think it's different when you play on a team that's actually playing for something.

[Rob Mahoney]

Absolutely.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he's in the running for worst player of the season.

[Rob Mahoney]

Wow.

[Bill Simmons]

Like if we were doing lvp, if you've actually watched Wizards games, I think he's one of the worst players I've seen this season. Can he just flip the switch and put it back? I don't know.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, it's hard to be that inefficient, that passive aggressive and that much just straight chilling all the time. Like it's really a rare skill.

[Big Woz]

The Wizards basketball situation is hell.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's bad.

[Big Woz]

It's hard.

[Bill Simmons]

Is it that bad? Like they have a bunch of young guys, they have Jordan pool playing actually pre. Well this year. I don't know. Is it that bad? You're a veteran on the team. You wanted. You didn't want them to trade you last year. They're trying to trade you to Dallas. You're like, I want to be here. So I'll put it this way.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like this wouldn't be a problem if what the Bucks weren't giving up is a player who was very important to their team and Chris Middleton who just can't do it at that level that they need him to do anymore.

[Big Woz]

He can't move, he's got two bad ankles.

[Rob Mahoney]

But what they needed was somebody who could do some Khris Middleton adjacent things. And Kyle Kuzma is closer to Taurean Prince than he is to healthy Khris Middleton. That is a big problem.

[Big Woz]

But was there a Chris Middleton esque guy out there?

[Rob Mahoney]

No. And not. Not in trading Chris in his current form. Like that's the.

[Big Woz]

The quandary guys has been a non entity.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's been an occasional entity.

[Bill Simmons]

There was a stretch two weeks ago when he had zero points in two of three games like goose eggs.

[Rob Mahoney]

It was a lot of alternate.

[Bill Simmons]

But somehow he's shooting like 45% from three or some crazy.

[Big Woz]

Someone can play four for these guys next to Giannis or next to Brook if you need him to. And again, like, like, I think that role play junkyard dog guy is still in there.

[Bill Simmons]

Wow. We're recording this one last thing because.

[Big Woz]

I think the Kuzma thing is going to work. When Team USA was assembled last summer, Kuzma, who's like an outspoken Twitter guy, he's like, yo, these guys are big NBA players and names, but somebody's going to have to fill a role. Somebody's going to have to do these dirty work things. And Devin Booker, like famously said, I will. Or whatever quote, tweeted, whatever. This is cool to me, explaining to you, like, I understand what it means to be on a team that's trying to do something meaningful.

[Bill Simmons]

It's five years ago. Dwight Howard was on that team. Look, Rashawn Rondo is on that team. Covid. Covid had just happened, I think.

[Big Woz]

I think Doc as a coach, Joe Biden was alive, is the Kind of guy who will curse you out for not doing the right thing in terms of playing your role playing next to Giannis, I'll go the other way.

[Bill Simmons]

I think Doc's gonna hate Kyle Kuzma.

[Big Woz]

I think he's gonna.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he's gonna be like, I can't believe we traded for this guy.

[Big Woz]

Why didn't my guy tell me in three, four weeks when this thing is.

[Bill Simmons]

We disagree, you get the tiebreaker vote.

[Rob Mahoney]

It'S not going to go well. Yeah, he's Kyle Kuzma. Here's the thing. When you approach a trade of this magnitude, and this is a huge trade for the Bucks, they've been waiting to either trade Chris Middleton or Brooke Lopez for the right move that came along. This is not the right move.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm going in our YouTube chat. Thanks to everybody who's sending questions. Rap Stallion says, hey, if it weren't for Kuzmo, we might not have the nickname named Din Shitty. I forgot about that. I forgot about the Kuzma did Witty feud. So people want to know if they can trade Jordan Pool. He's playing pretty well this year.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's also there, I want to say the elder statesman of their rotation right now.

[Big Woz]

So is. Is Jordan Pooler, Orlando Magic candidate.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't think he's an Orlando Magic player personally, but, you know, does Orlando.

[Bill Simmons]

Know they're allowed to make trade?

[Rob Mahoney]

We're going to soon find out.

[Bill Simmons]

I think they. They did the Vucevich trade and they're just like, Mike Trap, no more trades for us. We did it.

[Rob Mahoney]

They probably should be a little bit more desperate in terms of getting some.

[Big Woz]

Offenses fall in love with their young guys. So it's not that surprising that they still think, you know, all of these guys are going to come through in a major way. Jalen Suggs going down, I think is just underrated in how it turned out.

[Bill Simmons]

He was their mvp. Who knew? I thought it was palace, super important to their team. So with the Milwaukee, that Kuzma trade, which is really a money trade, they have to waste their first round pick they took last year. AJ Johnson got under the apron. Which raises the question, why did the CBA suck so much? How did the league just turn into just people trying to get under the apron, make financial moves, save tax money. How did they. I know it's like on the one hand you have the NBA, the owners, Adam Silver, probably the smartest lawyers on the planet, and then on the other side, you have like a couple players, some dude who took the job because they thought it'd be cool to get a picture with LeBron. And they just, they get worked every time. But this is disgusting.

[Big Woz]

It's two things. It's two things.

[Bill Simmons]

It's terrible.

[Big Woz]

So nobody's going to convince me that this doesn't cost players money. People say, well, no, the basketball revenue is guaranteed and teams have to spend to a floor. And like.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like, those are literal facts, though.

[Big Woz]

Yeah, no, that's cool. But like, teams going beyond, above and beyond.

[Rob Mahoney]

Sure, sure.

[Big Woz]

What is called for is more money in the player pool. And now teams will just say, we don't have that option. I see what you're saying. Because of these things. And the reason why the players agree to it is that the new CBA kicked in and they 2x the money. So when you're making all this money, it's like, why are we going to bat for this? We're richer than we've ever been by two and a half times X. And so that situation, conversely, let the owners get this. And it's literally so that Joe Lacob could forever just be like, you know, his first five, six years, just always spending way over the cap and always going into the luxury tax. Now he could go to his fan base without any retribution. Say, guys, second April doubt.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, my hands are tied.

[Big Woz]

My hands are tied.

[Rob Mahoney]

What can a guy do?

[Big Woz]

The owner's just literally like, okc.

[Bill Simmons]

There's an apron.

[Big Woz]

Oh, my goodness.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's the thing. Ultimately, ultimately, what you're describing is in some way this way. The league has been for a long time. It was just they were mostly trying to dodge the tax. Now, even if you are above the tax, there are more lines to dodge and harsher penalties.

[Bill Simmons]

I've never seen it be the number one reason for this many trades before. We've always had, like, financial implications and stuff, but this is different. You have 8, 9, 10 teams that are just like, we're doing this because it gets us under apron one, apron two, apron three. I also think the fans don't want to take the time to understand it. They don't care. It's confusing and it turns into this have. Have not of basketball conversations, and nobody.

[Big Woz]

Can explain to me what problem it was solving. What was solved by this in terms of selling it?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, it seems like they were. So I talked about this. We talked about this about the Zach Levine thing where it's harder to trade Zach Levine. So Zach Levine then goes, all right, I guess I'll roll my sleeves up and I'm going to have an awesome season for Chicago. It's not like I can go anywhere. But for every Zach ovine, there's been 10 other ways that this went wrong. And it just seems like there's more player movement, there's more guys getting bought out, there's more roster turnover. We had another trade, by the way.

[Rob Mahoney]

What do we get?

[Bill Simmons]

The Clippers have traded Terrence Mann, a beloved Clipper guy forever who always had the T man game, and Bones Highland, who couldn't have been more available for Bogdan Bogdanovich. Three second round picks. Now we're talking. The Clips needed like a, like a heat checky off the bench kind of guy like this. I was really hoping Denver would get Bogdanovich because he has the, you know, the Jokic thing. But as you know, Denver's not allowed to make trades or spend money. I think they're a zero apron team.

[Big Woz]

Look, first week of the season, the Strother talk, even the Christian Brown stuff. I was like Zeke Najee. I was like, zeke Najee made a couple threes the other day and I was like, what the hell is going on? Like, I was just like, guys, like, I get it, you love your young guys. And, and you say this like you're.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not talking up Julian Strother in the group chat.

[Big Woz]

Group chat, damn. I'm like, damn, STR is kind of better than I thought he was. So maybe they will be vindicated. But you're right, Bill. I would have loved to see them do something like a bogey thing. I was excited when they were in the Zach Levine sweepstakes allegedly. Like I, I was.

[Bill Simmons]

This happened in the Celtics five years ago where they either have giant contracts or small contracts that no in between. And you can't get the 16 to 20 million dollars guy because you literally can't put the contracts together. Bogdanovich on the Clippers, I mean love.

[Rob Mahoney]

The pickup for them. It is a buy low thing and we need to acknowledge that Bogey is having the worst season of maybe his entire professional life, including pre NBA. Just has not had it in the way.

[Bill Simmons]

He's been an underrated post Olympics slowdown guy.

[Rob Mahoney]

Almost everybody who went to the Olympics has been a little slow, a little step slow this season. It's been a thing for sure. So I would love to see him recapture some parts of his game. Surrounding him with high, like high leverage defensive personnel with the Clippers. That's a team that is so desperate for shot making. Depending on what's going on with Harden, how he's being pressured that night where Kawhi is in terms of his Health on a day to day basis. They need what Bogdanovic can provide. And so if this is the cost. Absolutely, why not?

[Bill Simmons]

Can I read you his stats?

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm a little. I'm a little worried to even hear them.

[Bill Simmons]

10 points a game.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, the. The, the shooting percentages are bad.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you know how normally 50, 40, 90 is the standard for percentages. He's a 37, 30, 88 guy.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not what you want.

[Bill Simmons]

7.6 PR. It's like nearing Bronnie James level of. Sorry, wise. But last year, 17 a game.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. And I feel okay being the apologist, not a cop.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I always feel with him, like, first of all, Atlanta could not have been more of a wrong team for him. I don't know if Trae Young is the catalyst for him. I want to see him on a team that's like, you're coming in, you're going to play eight minutes. We're going to run plays for you. We're going to run you all this ultimate green light. Go nuts, do your thing. And then for the Hawks, Terrence Mann, another long swing guy. There's some Clipper fans in my life who are like, when are they going to unleash this guy?

[Rob Mahoney]

Never really happened. Never really happened.

[Big Woz]

Bones.

[Bill Simmons]

Bones. What about him?

[Rob Mahoney]

He is a player in the NBA. That's for sure.

[Bill Simmons]

He's a player that made a lot more sense 30 years ago, back when.

[Big Woz]

I was just again, applauding everything the Nuggets did. I just swore Bones was going to be.

[Rob Mahoney]

He was the truth.

[Big Woz]

A person.

[Bill Simmons]

But then he failed an IQ test. He wasn't happy playing with Nicola.

[Big Woz]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Which is like the number one IQ test.

[Big Woz]

He was complaining that he wasn't getting enough tick on a team that like.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. He thought he was better than Jamal McCarthy. Murray.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Big Woz]

Tough. And now he's about to be on his third team.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

Almost borderline. We could replace Dan Waiters in the Rewatchables with the Bone style. And he check. It's almost like a personality. He check. All right, so Atlanta, they're really gutting.

[Rob Mahoney]

This thing, I guess. You know, it makes sense in the way that the future of their team is more Jalen Johnson. Zachary Ricochet oriented. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Like Richochet.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think. I think there's something there that works. Do you have to do all of this housekeeping right now? I don't exactly know why it would need to happen right now.

[Big Woz]

Yeah, I get the. I guess the idea that they're not keeping their pick. It's like, why are you losing? And Giving them a better pick, it's like that's gone. It's out the door. Like, we gotta do some cost there.

[Bill Simmons]

I've heard this. Yeah. It's like we already lost the pick. What do we care if it's 4, 12, 15? I mean, I would personally care. I would be like, oh, my God, the spite piece.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, you gotta stick it to him.

[Bill Simmons]

We've seen this happen in the past. Like, I remember the Clippers that one year when they. They traded their number one to get rid of Baron Davis's contract. Yeah, we're just gonna eat it. And then it turned into Kyrie Irving. Like, you just never know. I just wouldn't wanna. Wouldn't wanna find out. Speaking of teams that we don't know what the hell they're doing, Toronto traded for Brandon Ingram.

[Rob Mahoney]

What is this?

[Bill Simmons]

I had a. I did the. I did a tweet where I did the power rankings of teams that. I don't know what you're doing. And I didn't put Toronto in the top five because I haven't known what they're doing for like over a year. They just every year trade their pick. They get a guy who's kind of likable. He doesn't seem to make sense with any of the other players they have. And I have no idea why you would trade Bruce Brown, Kelly Olenek and a pretty mediocre first. That's Indiana's pick.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

For to then pay Brandon Ingram when you're already overpaying Scotty Barnes. You're overpaying Quickley. RJ Barrett's making a shitload. I just don't understand their team.

[Big Woz]

It's tough. I remember when Masai was. He was like a GM free agent. And it was like, is he going to New York? Is he going to this?

[Bill Simmons]

Could he save the Knicks?

[Big Woz]

And there was rumors that he got equity in the Raptors and all of this stuff. And to use all of that cache and literal equity and goodwill to do this with the Raptors since he re signed with them, it's just so rudderless and directionless. And I get it. Brandon Ingram's a good player. I understand why you would want him on his team. But, like, what is the idea or the theory of the Raptors?

[Rob Mahoney]

I genuinely don't like. They're a team that wants to play a very loose, freewheeling, like, democratic style.

[Big Woz]

That's not Brandon Ingram.

[Rob Mahoney]

That is not Brand Ingram plays basketball. If you did want a big forward to put next to Scotty Barnes, why did you trade the Better one in Pascal Siaka. I mean, like the Siakam comparison is inevitable because they're giving up that Indiana pick. They're giving up Bruce Brown, they're giving up Kelly Olenek, who I want to say was involved like tangentially in that deal in a follow up with Utah. And so now you traded Pascal Siakam for an expiring Brandon Ingram. Osha Baji was in that deal. Who else? The pick that became Jacoby Walter. That's your Pascal Siakam. Why didn't you just keep Pascal Siakam if that's where you were going to end up?

[Bill Simmons]

And Brandon Ingram's been available since June. Like back in the days when we had video stores and you would just stroll by the new release section, you'd be like, huh, domestic disturbance with John Travolta and Vince Vaughn? I don't think so. And then you'd walk around for 15 more minutes and then you'd pick up the VHS tape again. Ah, Travolta and Vince Vaughn. And then you'd stroll around again like, that's Brandon Ingram. People were just strolling by the new release aisle for him for nine months.

[Big Woz]

So here's the justification. It's like, you know, Brandon Ingram is gonna feel a way about New Orleans not paying him because he feels like he's accomplished stuff there and there's like so much stuff. There's a sort of entitlement there. But then, you know, you go a whole year and a half basically where nobody wants you. I think he comes into that contract negotiation with the Raptors with a little bit more humility. I'm sure that's probably what they're banking on where he doesn't think he's a five year maximum contract player.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think it'll probably be a shorter term deal.

[Big Woz]

I would probably be like a three year.

[Rob Mahoney]

But are you telling like, I'm just seeing a future where they pay him upwards of $40 million a season. And to do what?

[Big Woz]

He is a dynamic duo, him and Scotty Barnes.

[Rob Mahoney]

He doesn't fit with Barnes. He's hurt all the time.

[Big Woz]

Him and rj, they occupy the same area to court.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like, I'm already frustrated.

[Bill Simmons]

He is a top body of like, oh man, you're going to get hurt. Just when you see him in person, he's like, he's so skinny.

[Big Woz]

Does his space.

[Rob Mahoney]

No.

[Big Woz]

Which the Raptors need.

[Rob Mahoney]

He will occasionally talk himself into taking spot up threes, but occasionally.

[Bill Simmons]

Here's the red flag for me beyond all the other red flags. So you Had Golden State, who was definitely strolling around that new release video store over and over again. Steve Kerr, who coached Brandon Ingram on one of those FIBA teams, no shot. And by the end, Brandon Ingram's like, he's sick. He can't play in the last two games because he was just out of the rotation. And Golden State, who desperately needed anything. And this was like the layup trade of all time. Give up nothing for Brandon Ingram. They were like, we're good. We're not doing that. Then Miami, they're sitting there, too. Hey, we could turn, whatever, maybe we'll take. And Miami's like, we're also good. And then you have Toronto, who's like, we don't think we can get free agents ever. So this is how we get free agents. And then they talk themselves into it. I don't like it.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't like it at all.

[Big Woz]

The talent doesn't fit at all. But, you know, again, another lanky, rangy guy who they love, but he's never been. He's never used his tools for good.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's fake size and he doesn't guard ever.

[Bill Simmons]

And he's a. He's ball stopper, too.

[Rob Mahoney]

He absolutely is. Ball stopped.

[Big Woz]

Ball stoppiest.

[Bill Simmons]

Would there be a worse team to be like the fifth guy than this one?

[Big Woz]

Meaning you never get the ball passed to you.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like you're like the. You're the, like Agbaji. You're like, fuck. Oh, my God. I'm just going to be in the corner over here, guys.

[Rob Mahoney]

He seems like he has a good head on his shoulders. He seems well adjusted.

[Bill Simmons]

He's having a good year. I was wondering if he was like a. Like a sneaky trade deadline piece lately.

[Rob Mahoney]

Especially on D. Like, they've guarded really well.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, their fans are frisky. They're. They're like always taking everything personally. I mean, they did win the title.

[Rob Mahoney]

And they have a lot to take personally. You know, there's reasons to boo the national right.

[Bill Simmons]

2018, they won the title. And since then, Messiah's just been on a heater. It's a. He's like. It's like when Obama finished the presidency. He's like, I'm opening a production company and I'm playing golf. Messiah's like, I'm going to trade for Brandon Ingram.

[Rob Mahoney]

Shout out to our colleague Danny Chow, who flagged. This is now four consecutive trade deadlines where the Raptors have traded a first for a guy who's about to be a free agent because they feel like.

[Bill Simmons]

They can't sign a free agent?

[Rob Mahoney]

I guess.

[Bill Simmons]

Did Danny Chow like this trade?

[Rob Mahoney]

I. I can't imagine.

[Bill Simmons]

Doubtful.

[Rob Mahoney]

I can't imagine.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm going to say Brandon Ingram is not a Danny Chow type of player.

[Rob Mahoney]

Doesn't strike me as one.

[Bill Simmons]

And then the New Orleans side of that trade just quickly so they're down to as assets. Trey Murphy, the best player on the team who I think is the only untouchable.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's really good.

[Bill Simmons]

Zion Williamson, wild card could get traded next half hour. C.J. mcCollum, always in trade. Rumors. Herb Jones, Hawkins, Missy Alvarado and Dejounte Murray who will not be playing for at least a year. And their first round picks are fine, but not. They're whatever. Yeah, they used to have like, oh, look at all those first round picks. They've kind of taken all of them. But you go back to that ad.

[Big Woz]

Trade, dude, I go back to 2019 all the time.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, this. But look at all the people in this trade. Deandre Hunter, Brandon Ingram, Lonzo Ball, who I think was way more of an asset back then than you know, he got hurt. Josh Hart, mo Wagner was 22 first, which became Dyson Daniels. The 23 swap didn't apply. And then the 25 first pick. It was a lot when you look back at like they did get a lot of players.

[Big Woz]

Lonzo Jones.

[Bill Simmons]

I mentioned this because none of those guys are on the team.

[Big Woz]

Yes, that's the thing.

[Bill Simmons]

None of them.

[Big Woz]

I just, and I've said this a couple of times, I remember it's being at summer league in 2019 after they traded AD Draft Zion, who looks like he's going to be the next LeBron James.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Big Woz]

And I remember seeing Griff at summer league and there was an aura emanating from him. Everybody wanted to bend this guy's ears like my God, Griff, he's done.

[Bill Simmons]

Zion and Amelia, they are on their way.

[Big Woz]

They got all these picks and their young guys are cost control and blah and this. And there's so much versatility and oh my New Orleans is it. And what's come of this ad trade One frisky first class assets that look.

[Bill Simmons]

Awesome on paper but no longer play.

[Rob Mahoney]

It in the team didn't quite work out.

[Bill Simmons]

And the Lonzo thing was the thing that I think hurt them the most because I actually really think Lonzo. And we're seeing it like we're seeing this diminished version of him in Chicago who's still like a really additive player.

[Rob Mahoney]

And he just got an extension two years, $20 million, which is nice, nice little Turnaround for him.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but I. Going forward, I don't know what this team is. I don't know how long they're going to be in New Orleans. I don't know how long Zion's going to be in the team. I don't know what the plan would be going forward with this roster. And the Murray trade is catastrophic. I would have traded him already.

[Big Woz]

Same.

[Bill Simmons]

But the problem, I don't think it's ever happening in New Orleans. So you just have to accept that. It's like we all said, how Jimmy Butler for Wiggins is a trade that makes no sense on paper. But if you're Miami, you don't have Jimmy Butler anymore. You have the Ghost, you have Zombie Jimmy Butler, who's not an asset. So now you turn him into a guy who can play defense and rebound and hit some threes.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think that's where you get into really tough places when you don't actually have the ideal version of the player anymore. And the Pelicans have not had the ideal version of Brandon Ingram for quite some time, mostly because of injury. But they held onto him too long in the same way that the Raptors held on to seahawkam too long. Like you can see this chain of events of some of these teams that are feeling pinched where they don't move their guys when they need to move them.

[Big Woz]

And then the perils of the max contract era is that when you have your own guy and he's clearly one of your best players, there's a pressure to pay him a max deal, which he'll be in the same pay grade as guys that are just clearly much better. Bonafide All Stars and Ingram and even Siakam. Like these are high quality players. Are they max players? But the way the system is set up, like you have to pay these guys in accordance to this freaking pay scale.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, think about this. We knew somebody was going to suck in the west heading into the season. We're like, there's just too many good teams. There's too much talent. Who is going to be the out of nowhere this team sucks. Team New Orleans has played 15 games in 112 that would not have been on my bingo card. Like they have so much talent. You could feel something stinky maybe with them. The way they're handing the Trey Murphy thing Zion, you never know. But this is 12 wins is nuts.

[Big Woz]

We thought they were clearly going to be above playing range. Like they'd be in the six, maybe even five.

[Bill Simmons]

Their was like 45 and a half yeah, it is lower now like it.

[Big Woz]

Is idiots on New Orleans. Coming into this we are going to.

[Bill Simmons]

Take a break for the podcast. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Winning is a great feeling, but let's be honest, it's even better with a prize like Michelob Ultra Superior Light Beer. And that's exactly what you'll get with Play you for an Ultra on doordash. You can challenge your friends to a game racer match and send the winner a Michelob Ultra because Superior beer is always worth playing for. Participate in Play you for an Ultra and send the winner an Ultra through doordash today. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2025 Anheuser Busch McLobe Ultra Light Beer St. Louis, MO must be 21 or older to order alcohol. Alcohol available only in select markets. So Phoenix going forward, the Durant piece of the Butler trade, which we did not discuss us, what did you think of him being like, I'm shutting this down, I don't want to go to Golden State. If you trade for me, I'm going to be unhappy because that's confirmed. I heard all the same stuff everybody else had. It seemed like on Tuesday that was going to be a three way trade. I think it was really close and it basically came down to are we sure KD is on board with this? And the feedback was he's not, doesn't want to go back back. So Rob, why you're in the Bay, why didn't he want to go back? What was it?

[Rob Mahoney]

I can't imagine a single reason why he might not want to run back that experience.

[Big Woz]

Probably a Draymond thing.

[Rob Mahoney]

I could imagine that being a potential.

[Bill Simmons]

Holdup, a Steve Kerr piece, the Draymond piece, the this will be bad for my legacy.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think him coming back to the Bay, if there ever was like a full circle moment for that, it would require Kevin Durant to have a dramatic reimagining of who he is as a player and a person and the way he fits into the basketball universe. And I give Kevin Durant credit for this in a way like he has a very firm and fixed understanding of who he is and it is not the guy who needs to go crawling back to the warriors to win again. And that leads you to some places like Phoenix with this particular roster sometimes. But I just, it didn't really fit with the KD that we know that he would want to do something like that.

[Big Woz]

And it doesn't fit because it would have made sense basketball wise, which is just generally not what KD he Doesn't do the basketball thing except for Golden State. Like, that's been the only time that he put the thing on the floor first and he didn't really care for the results in terms of his own personal happiness, as he said previously.

[Bill Simmons]

I went back and looked at his 2019 game log splits because he was really good to start the year. And then after the Draymond thing, I forgot, like, oh, yeah, he was like 21 a game, 33% from 3. And then in the playoffs he ran back up and he was awesome. Awesome. But it was damaging for months. And I just, you know, that's what's so funny. When you see these stuff now, these podcasts or these guys do these fake things together and it's like Draymond and kd. No, no, we're good. It's like, there's no way they're good. Like, Katie's never forgiving whatever happened, whatever was said.

[Big Woz]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

And there's that piece. There's probably a Steve Kerr piece. But from a basketball standpoint, if I was him, I would have rather been on Golden State. I just, just like, it's a no brainer. I don't want to be in this Phoenix team. Crazy owner, no pitch.

[Big Woz]

It's almost. You fit the thing like a glove. Like, obviously KD's good enough to do all the ball movement stuff, but that's not what Golden State would be asking him to do. Yeah, they'd be asking him to be KD again. Just get the ball and cook people and Steph and everybody else will work around it. But again, I can understand not wanting to go back and do the same thing and want to maybe if Phoenix isn't what you ultimately end up up doing in terms of signing an extension with exploring some different option, that makes you, you know, a lot happier. And I think Phoenix's whole thing has always been with, like, trading all these picks and this and the future's done. Like, if we want to, we'll do a fire sale for KD and Booker, try to get a bunch of picks back and just move on with our lives. That's what it feels like. The Phoenix thing is it felt like.

[Rob Mahoney]

This could have been the first time in Kevin Durant's life where he didn't really get to pick, pick, and maybe he just would have gotten moved somewhere. But then when he was so vocal and made it so clear he didn't want to play for Golden State, I. I think it changed the math a little bit. Ultimately, I think the only way it would have Worked for KD as a warrior again, is if it was also a more elaborate LeBron going to Golden State thing. They would probably have to have where it's. And even it's. It's not.

[Bill Simmons]

Honestly just put a bullet in my head. I just. I just wouldn't be able to handle it.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, I think you're. I think you're probably bailed out on that just because the time thing the league needs is.

[Bill Simmons]

Let's talk about these old guys some more. Can we bring in Conspiracy Bill for a second?

[Big Woz]

Let's do it.

[Rob Mahoney]

I thought he was already in the room with us.

[Bill Simmons]

No, we bring him in.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

I'll put a. I'll put a hoodie. Conspiracy Bill is here. Are we sure? There's that lingering bitterness with KD for the Achilles injury and maybe how that was handled by the team.

[Rob Mahoney]

In which direction? Like him. Towards the. Toward Golden State.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Big Woz]

People don't remember this, Bill. That's why you're Bill Simmons.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm not Bill Simmons. I'm Conspiracy Bill. Piercey Bill is here, but that's why I'm just asking. I have no inside information. Please don't aggregate this. I just always thought it was a little weird. He hurt his calf, came back and blew out his Achilles.

[Big Woz]

People don't remember. And I was like, at the time, there was a bit of a whisper campaign of what's up with kd, what's taking him so long? He should be back already. Like, he looks good when we see him in practice, when we see him in the gym, blah, blah, blah.

[Bill Simmons]

He's going to be a free agent. He doesn't want to risk it.

[Big Woz]

And it was a whisper campaign and he came back and then tore his freaking Achilles. And Bob Myers is crying at the news conference and all of that. And I always thought that was like, man, damn. We did kind of say he was, you know, loafing and taking too long.

[Bill Simmons]

Another great appearance from Conspiracy Bill. That was a great. What a cameo by him.

[Big Woz]

Something to it.

[Bill Simmons]

I wonder what the people think on the chat. I'm going to look in the chat for this. Oh, man. That really got the chat going. People want a 90 minute conspiracy bill. So maybe I just put on the hood every time.

[Big Woz]

I'm sure you've gotten a few of the conspiracies with that situation. Oh, it's out of control.

[Bill Simmons]

We're saving all Luca Laker stuff for part two.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

We're still. We're on trade deadline watch. We have Cody Zeller and Houston's 2028 second round. Pick going to the Rockets so Atlanta can get under the luxury tax. Oh, sources tell Free P Free Sports that Dennis Schroeder will end up with the Pistons as part of the massive Jimmy Butler deal. If I'm the Pistons, I'm just getting a little frisky.

[Big Woz]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Could I get the 6 seed? I have an awesome player. I have a team that is like tough and likes playing with each other and that gets a little aggro in some of these games. I have the scariest guy in the league and beef stew one not.

[Rob Mahoney]

They also ended up with who did they get in the Butler deal? I want to say it was Lindy. Lindy Waters and Josh Richardson.

[Big Woz]

I want to say end up with Josh Richardson.

[Rob Mahoney]

Maybe, maybe not. Players have been poor for them. Lindy Waters I could see actually giving them some minutes and some stretch at times. I could see him giving them some.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, here's a fun one. In the Bogdan Bogdanovich trade, the Clippers got three second round picks back, including their own pick.

[Rob Mahoney]

We love.

[Bill Simmons]

We're trading so many second round picks. Teams are now reacquiring their own picks.

[Rob Mahoney]

You just, you don't love any pick like your own pick.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, we finally got it back. They should do the welcome home Jumbo Jumbo. Do you think we should have third round picks? Should we have third round picks?

[Rob Mahoney]

Who are we drafting the third round?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know. Like they, these teams love trading these picks. Then they could just put like they required four third round picks and a second round pick.

[Big Woz]

More bites at the apple, Bill.

[Bill Simmons]

What? So if we say the Lakers thing for part two.

[Big Woz]

Sure.

[Bill Simmons]

What else jumped from the trade deadline for you?

[Big Woz]

I mean, the Fox thing I think was cool in a couple of ways because a lot of people felt like the spurs should hold out for a better superstar. And I said this on our podcast. It's almost like your friend who is addicted to Tinder and is a nice girl who wants him and wants to settle with him, but he's like, yeah, but I got these five other hot chicks on Tinder that might want to mess with with me. It's like, no, get with the girl. That's like a nice girl, good looking girl, wants to be with you, settle up with that one.

[Rob Mahoney]

Do you think the was 10 years ago would have made this take? You know, of course not. No. This is personal development.

[Bill Simmons]

Very mature version of the last.

[Rob Mahoney]

You're very buttoned up today.

[Big Woz]

You got the cardigan going in on not just De'Aaron Fox as a talent, but like temperamentally He's a Spurs kind of player in terms of his headspace, his approach to the game, his, you know, he's not like, he's just not an NBA defense. He's about the right things. And I thought they were smart to just be like, you know what, it's not going to cost us a ton to bring this guy in. Yes. Some people might look at the extension like, all right, you're going to pay him $48 million.

[Bill Simmons]

I would. I think he's a top 30 guy. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm okay with it.

[Bill Simmons]

To me, I'm also who he wanted to be in a small market Texas team, which is pretty rare.

[Big Woz]

Go get him. And I'm happy they did that.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought it was like, the more I stared at it, it was like 62 cents on the dollar for what they paid. I can't believe, believe Sohan or Vassell were not in the trade. And I don't know what the Bulls. The more I stared at the Bulls.

[Rob Mahoney]

Part of it, their part of it is the most.

[Bill Simmons]

Every time they make a trade, you're always like, wait, what are they getting? And it just seems like now it's like, cool. We get Zach Collins for two years and like, I just don't get them at all.

[Rob Mahoney]

Another team that just like held onto Zach lavine for too long waiting for the perfect deal to materialize and it never did.

[Big Woz]

And do we know that better deals were available earlier than this?

[Rob Mahoney]

Better than this?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I think Golden State was trying to get. Get him before they went down the Butler Road, but I think that was sitting there. I thought he was the sneaky trade piece of this whole thing. His contract's bad, but it's not that bad. It's this year, next year, and then it's an expiring. He was playing great. I think I'd said this before, but he plays well against good teams, which I think matters. And I don't know what to make of that Sacramento team. We talked about it earlier, but I just. You could tell me they're going to win 10 of their next 12. You could tell me they're going to lose 12 in a row. I don't. It's a weird team.

[Big Woz]

I mean, their owner just doesn't like the idea of a complete tear down and rebuild. And so other people might have been like, look, Fox has been our franchise player for how long? We've built everything around him. We moved Halliburton out of here because of him and our belief in him, and he no longer wants to be Here. All right, let's start off all over, see if we can get some bonus offers out there.

[Bill Simmons]

Let's.

[Big Woz]

Let's start all over, do something different.

[Rob Mahoney]

Was they've made the playoffs one time in 20 years. 20 years.

[Big Woz]

I get it. I get it.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's the thing. It's like in theory. Sure. From an asset standpoint. Maybe there's an argument for a tear down. Sabonis has been probably a little too good at least as a regular season player for that.

[Big Woz]

Sabonus who trades for Sabon, I feel like he's way more valuable to them them than he would be to some other team.

[Rob Mahoney]

That could be true. That could be true.

[Bill Simmons]

A wise GM told me once, you always want to have six or seven dumb teams that you can trade with at any time in a 30 team league. Sacramento has just always managed to be one of those teams.

[Rob Mahoney]

This has been a big deadline for potentially dumb teams. I was thinking, I know we're not dipping too much into the Lakers part of this yet, but the Luca trade has made me feel young again. It is, it is hearkening back to a time of our young youth where there just haven't been like that many old fashioned absolute dog like David Khan style trades.

[Big Woz]

I was literally about to scream it, Bill.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's like, that's what it's running a.

[Bill Simmons]

Team in France right now. We have 12 minutes left in the deadline and so far it's. We're in Cody Zoer, Dennis Schroeder land. Is there a team that you are surprised has done anything yet?

[Big Woz]

Definitely the mad most surprised because they're so rudderless right now and the idea that you wouldn't try to spruce that thing up is tough. I think the Knicks are really counting on Mitchell Robinson coming back and being that anchor.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's a big role.

[Big Woz]

Really need him.

[Rob Mahoney]

But the big man market has also dried up pretty fast on them.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, so we have Nick Claxton and Cam Johnson still sitting there. The Nets, are they trying to stink or not?

[Big Woz]

Why is going to scoop Clint Capella? Is this an injury history?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think he's currently injured.

[Bill Simmons]

I want to say I think it's a Swiss thing. Yeah.

[Big Woz]

Magic should have probably tried to do something. I, I get it. They can be patient. Their guys are still young and, and all of that stuff and they feel like they're building towards something. But the Magic should have done something. I'm always going to think the Denver Nuggets should have upgraded.

[Bill Simmons]

So that was Denver's my number one. I don't know what apron Denver's in but they seem perfectly content to stay in that apron and not do anything. I was even wondering like when Middleton got moved to Washington would they try to make a move with Porter and use that Middleton contract get one other try to do like a three for one something like that and maybe jump on the chance to dump Porter somewhere. But Porter's actually been playing pretty well.

[Rob Mahoney]

Lately and Michael Malone was like quite definitive. Yeah not going to trade Michael Porter.

[Bill Simmons]

So it seems like he's there. Murray they're already all in on Yokage obviously is to go anywhere Gordon they extend and they just don't really have the flexibility but if they do like the Zeke Najee with Sarich some swaps second, third and fourth round picks and just I don't know could you get. What could you get for that?

[Rob Mahoney]

They're. They are actually close. Like they. They feel like one even kind of minor role player addition could tick them up a couple percentage points in the title race. Yeah.

[Big Woz]

Yeah I think so. And also just related to that especially in the west, why has nobody made a move for Jeremy Grant? I know the Bucks were kicking the.

[Bill Simmons]

Tires because they have league pass we're.

[Big Woz]

Kicking the tires on him because he.

[Bill Simmons]

Makes 35 billion a year or whatever.

[Big Woz]

32 and he's already 30 but I just.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he's untradable at that number.

[Big Woz]

It's one of those things where guys on bad teams I feel like you get in the right situation that's actually playing for something. You can change the contours of what you do on a night to night basis if it's for some Greater Good.

[Bill Simmons]

Couple YouTube chat questions as we wait for a trade. Daniel wants to know if we can discuss Butler's jersey retirement in Miami and whether that would happen. I'm already on the record after Vince Carter's number got retired in New Jersey and Toronto. I think everyone is eligible now. Yeah especially Vincent Toronto. If that can happen. I'm fully prepared for Jimmy Butler in Miami. I think that should happen but we'll see. It'll probably be after Pat Riley's dead maybe like 15 years probably.

[Big Woz]

He's definitely one of the greatest Heat ever.

[Bill Simmons]

Russell Martin says Sacramento turning into the Bulls is so sad.

[Rob Mahoney]

This is disrespectful to demonic Sabonis. I want to.

[Bill Simmons]

They're better than the Bulls.

[Big Woz]

They're better than.

[Bill Simmons]

They're the Bulls with the Monica Sabonis.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah that's a.

[Bill Simmons]

That's a meaningful difference.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's a different thing.

[Big Woz]

Basically had. What was it 30 games in Lonzo's first year.

[Rob Mahoney]

But what a, What a beautiful 23 games they were in.

[Bill Simmons]

Sacramento's not injured.

[Big Woz]

Capela's not. I don't know. Like, if you need big man help, he's been a.

[Rob Mahoney]

He might be day to day. He might be a minor.

[Big Woz]

If you need big man help, why are you breaking the bank to me? And I know we're saving it for the second half for Mark Williams.

[Bill Simmons]

Save it for the second half where.

[Big Woz]

You could do something for Clint Capella just for this year.

[Bill Simmons]

Year. A couple people are asking about kd. KD to the Spurs, Katie to the Grizzlies. Katie to the Rockets.

[Big Woz]

Katie to the Grizzlies.

[Bill Simmons]

What's the most interesting of those three?

[Big Woz]

Katie to the Grizzlies is a KD move because they have the stars already. So he won't feel like the burden is.

[Bill Simmons]

I was wondering how you're going to make this insulting for a second.

[Big Woz]

Yeah, the burden.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought you were complimenting him and I was like, I'm scared, confused.

[Big Woz]

No, he's going to recognize the burden will not be all on him and so he can go in and just do KD things just come in.

[Bill Simmons]

Plus he can take over the offense in the two out of every five games when Jo doesn't play for some reason. John not playing today. Now he's got bronchitis.

[Rob Mahoney]

Listen, it also would be very bitter.

[Big Woz]

Josh is trying to save himself for the playoffs.

[Bill Simmons]

Has Job played four games in a row?

[Big Woz]

I don't.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm concerned.

[Big Woz]

Think so yet. But he's. They're being very.

[Bill Simmons]

Should I be surprised when I put the Grizzlies on league pass and it's like here's John Moran. He's playing tonight. He's like him and Joel Embiid are the. I can't, I can't believe you're on my tv.

[Big Woz]

Perfect compliment. I could play the Grizzlies and I get it. I'm in the tank for them.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Big Woz]

Even when Jaw's not playing, I still want to watch that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well. Yeah. The Jaren Jackson Jr.

[Bill Simmons]

Agenda is strong.

[Big Woz]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I, my biggest regret is not voting for him as an all star starter. I didn't have the balls. I wasn't strong enough. And then Marcillo of course did it and then I was super jealous of it because when you watch him like there's definitely an aggro Jaren Jackson this year, especially in crunch and they're like, they'll run offense like bam. Out of bio style. Like he'll. He'll bring the ball over mid court and like be telling people where to go.

[Big Woz]

Drive at people too.

[Rob Mahoney]

That would be the, the kick of the potential Kevin Durant trade would be that the Grizzlies spent all this time cultivating this very elaborate, interwoven offense and it's like, oh, let's just get the ball to Kevin Durant.

[Bill Simmons]

So if the Rockets traded, I'm trying to think what, what the KD trade would be, but I think Van Vliet would have to be in it because they can't trade. But if it was like, damn, who's.

[Big Woz]

Playing point guard for them?

[Bill Simmons]

If it was like Van Vliet, Terry Eason, a bunch of picks and Phoenix just gets a reboot and then they get out from under the money stuff next year, I just, I wouldn't do, I'm not wavering from my, I wouldn't do anything if I'm the Rockets this year because I don't think they're winning the title and I want to, I want to move into the summer and make a move with Jaylen Green or Shangun.

[Big Woz]

So if you're going to do that, man, get somebody who's in their 20s, even if it's their late 20s, get somebody in there. Don't get a 38 year old man.

[Bill Simmons]

Come on, you're adding years to him. He's like 36, 35. Mahoney, where do you stand on KD right now as an impact guy?

[Rob Mahoney]

Really? He's, he's really good.

[Bill Simmons]

His stats, oh, his stats are insane. I was actually looking at this, I did a little, actually did some homework for this pod because it's my job. I was looking at KD this year versus KD career. So his last 15 years, from 2010 to this year, he's 28 a game. This year he's 27. He was seven rebounds for those 15 years. He's six this year. He's five assists. He's four this year. For those 15 years, 51%. He's 52 this year, 39% for 3:40 this year. 7.6 free throw attempts for those 15 years. 6.1 this year. Yep, he's 91% of what he normally is. And the only slippage I really see is when I watch because he just looks a little creakier, stiffer than he used to be. He used to be like such a, the way he moved, like he's so smooth. He's not, he's still smooth, but he's not like that. Is there anything else you've noticed.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean he is by far their most reliable creator this year. He's the only reason their defense has ever remotely worked, which it mostly does not. But he's the only thing kind of papering over most of their mistakes and the like lack of ball pressure on the perimeter. He's. There's a reason why when he's out they look like a totally different team. They just, they don't know how to work without him in Phoenix.

[Big Woz]

Only thing he doesn't do anymore is turn the corner on guys. He's not getting to the way like prom kd. Like that was what made it unstoppable.

[Bill Simmons]

But he still gets to his spots and he can only. We have a trade, sir Shams yet again. Shams just dancing in Woj's wake, having a great time. The Grizzlies trading Marcus Smart and a 25 first round pick to the Wizards in a multi team trade that sends a couple second round picks to Memphis. Memphis creates roster flexibility and cap stuff with the move. We also have Sean saying Kevin Porter Jr. To the Bucks for Marjon Beauchamp. I've gone to a couple Kevin Porter games where you watch and you're like this is pretty good. And then you have to calm yourself down. No, he gets to the basket man.

[Big Woz]

Moments where he looks like an above average NBA athlete. Like where it's like, man, this guy has some physical like gifts in terms of quickness and all of that.

[Bill Simmons]

But can we, can we talk about the Smart thing though?

[Big Woz]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

They trade Smart two first round picks that they trade two first round picks. Basically Porzingis for Smart is the trade. Right. And Smart shows up and he's been banged up the entire time. Which I think is. I tried to say this delicately when the trade happened. I think the Celtics felt like this car has a lot of miles on it. Sure, let's sell a year too high, then a year too late. And I wonder is because he's an expiring this year or next year. Can't remember.

[Rob Mahoney]

Let's find out.

[Bill Simmons]

But he still feels like a playoff guy for me. And I remember the Lakers tried to get him a year ago and I wonder if that ends. If that ends up being a Laker possibility would be my guess. I'll find out as you guys talk. Marcus Smart, anything left in the tank.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean this is a player over 25 for the Washington Wizards, which does not fit Middleton.

[Bill Simmons]

Two adults.

[Rob Mahoney]

I guess that's true. They do have Chris Middleton now. What a weird roster. What a weird way for Marcus Smart's Grizzlies tenure to end. I can't believe that we got here.

[Big Woz]

Next year is his last year. 21 million.

[Rob Mahoney]

$21 million from Marcus Smart.

[Bill Simmons]

So yeah, I don't know what's left.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, now that they have Marcus Smart, the Wizards have waved Reggie Jackson, so. Oh, Reggie, shout out to Reggie Jackson brief Wizards career.

[Bill Simmons]

So, yeah, with Marcus, whether there's anything left in tank or not, as somebody who watched a lot of his career, most of his games that he played, just, just those, that style of play, you're just not aging nicely. All the fucking abuse that his body took, all the charges he took, all the big guys he had to go against and I don't know, I just want to get to the world where he's retired and he's the lead analyst with Drew Carter on Celtic games. Maybe Wiscal we can keep scout, but I think Marcus will be an incredible post career local Celtic guy. That'd be my hope.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm trying to figure out what Memphis is doing because the reporting from shams around the Marcus Smart trade is that it's creating roster flexibility. And Memphis, just, so there's some trade coming, dumped Jake Laravia, who, who can actually play rotation guy to the Sacramento Kings. Nice little pickup for them.

[Bill Simmons]

So they did that weird thing with Laravia where they didn't extend his option. So he was a free agent after the year and then he started playing really well and they kind of fucked it up. So the Kings got Laravia.

[Rob Mahoney]

They got Laravia.

[Bill Simmons]

I like him. I was hoping the Celtics would get him.

[Rob Mahoney]

So what are. Yeah, what are the Grizzlies going to?

[Bill Simmons]

I wonder if there's. Now I'm starting to wonder if there's some KD potential.

[Rob Mahoney]

It won't be very exciting. Although I was when. When the KD era in Phoenix appeared that it might be coming to a close, I was trying to reflect and see like, okay, what have we done here? About two years as a son so far. Obviously hasn't had the playoff run this year. A 6 and 9 record in the playoffs with Phoenix. One playoff series win. Series win.

[Bill Simmons]

But that awesome two games with Booker where they scored like, that was sick. 90 points each game together and it was like, holy shit.

[Big Woz]

Two zip to the Nuggets and came back and tied the series up.

[Bill Simmons]

Hey, guys, we have to end part one of the podcast, but we're staying on YouTube. Don't leave. We're just ending part one of the podcast, which will go up pretty shortly. All right, that's it for part one. Of the BS Podcast. Remember, Part two is coming pretty soon. Soon, right after the trade deadline. Thanks to Kyle, Creighton, Gahal and Ceruti for producing. As always, you can watch all the clips and videos from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. See you for part two.

[Rob Mahoney]

On the.

[Bill Simmons]

Wayside must be 21 plus and President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + in President D.C. gambling problem call 1-800- gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-887-89-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPENY or text hopeny in New York.