Playoff Jamal, Playoff Harden, Farewell Giannis, and a Draymond Deep Dive With Kirk Goldsberry and Zach Lowe

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Bill Simmons Podcast – "Playoff Jamal, Playoff Harden, Farewell Giannis, and a Draymond Deep Dive With Kirk Goldsberry and Zach Lowe"

Release Date: April 30, 2025
Host: Bill Simmons, The Ringer
Guests: Kirk Goldsberry, Zach Lowe

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Introduction

In this episode of The Bill Simmons Podcast, Bill Simmons, alongside regular contributors Kirk Goldsberry and Zach Lowe, dives deep into the NBA playoffs, analyzing standout performances, pivotal moments, and significant player narratives. Key topics include Jamal Murray's exceptional playoff run, James Harden's struggles, Giannis Antetokounmpo's anticipated farewell, and an extensive exploration of Draymond Green's impact on the game.

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1. Clippers vs. Nuggets Series Analysis

Key Players:

• Jamal Murray (Nuggets)
• James Harden (Clippers)
• Russell Westbrook (Clippers)

Discussion Highlights:

• Jamal Murray's Stellar Performance:

  • Kirk: "Jamal Murray became playoff Jamal Murray again tonight. Harden was invisible." [09:45]
  • Bill: "Jamal Murray is going to have his best game of the playoffs and his best game in a while." [05:09]

• James Harden's Underwhelming Play:

  • Kirk: "Harden was invisible." [09:45]
  • Bill expresses concern over Harden's declining performance, questioning his ability to deliver in crucial playoff moments.

• Clippers' Defensive Decline:

  • Kirk notes a significant drop in the Clippers' defensive rebounding, ranking 15th out of 16 in the playoffs compared to their top ranking during the regular season.
  • Bill remarks on the Clippers' historical playoff struggles, highlighting their inability to close out series despite having star players.

• Nuggets' Strategic Advantage:

  • The Nuggets capitalized on key performances from players like Jamal Murray and Russell Westbrook, who provided significant contributions off the bench.
  • Bill emphasizes Denver's effective use of home-court advantage and strategic rest for players.

Notable Quotes:

• Kirk Goldsberry: "Jamal Murray, but there is a little bit of an underwhelming current from these Los Angeles Clippers to me." [05:09]
• Bill Simmons: "This was a complete no show from a guy who's had a bunch of no shows over the last 10 years in big moments like this." [06:17]

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2. Pacers vs. Cavaliers Series Breakdown

Key Players:

• Gary Trent Jr. (Cavaliers)
• Giannis Antetokounmpo (Celtics)

Discussion Highlights:

• Cavaliers' Dramatic Finish:

  • The series culminated in a heart-stopping Game 7 where Gary Trent Jr. outperformed expectations, including multiple difficult plays against Giannis.

• Giannis Antetokounmpo's Farewell:

  • Anticipation surrounds Giannis's potential retirement, marking the end of an era for one of the league's most dominant players.
  • Bill and Kirk discuss Giannis's legacy and his emotional restraint post-game despite a heated finish.

• Coaching Decisions and Team Dynamics:

  • Criticism of coaching strategies, particularly regarding player injuries and rotation decisions.
  • Emphasis on the importance of team health and depth in playoff success.

Notable Quotes:

• Bill Simmons: "This is about as experienced of a team as you're going to get. They don't have the best player in the series, which is a problem." [09:07]
• Kirk Goldsberry: "Detroit played better basketball tonight... that was just a complete no show from Jamal Murray." [09:23]

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3. Celtics vs. Magic Series Insights

Key Players:

• Jayson Tatum (Celtics)
• Jaylen Brown (Celtics)
• Anthony Edwards (Magic)

Discussion Highlights:

• Celtics' Dominance:

  • The Celtics showcased remarkable efficiency, particularly in the third quarter, where they secured a significant lead against the Magic.
  • Jayson Tatum's leadership and Anthony Edwards' emergence as a superstar were pivotal in the Celtics' success.

• Magic's Shooting Struggles:

  • Orlando Magic struggled with shooting accuracy, particularly from the three-point line, which hindered their offensive capabilities.
  • Despite defensive strengths, the Magic couldn't keep up with Boston's offensive surge.

• Player Development and Team Strategy:

  • Emphasis on Tatum's growth and the Celtics' ability to adapt their strategies based on player performances.
  • Analysis of coaching decisions and their impact on game outcomes.

Notable Quotes:

• Zach Lowe: "Anthony Edwards has joined the party. He's now a superstar." [27:29]
• Kirk Goldsberry: "Cade Cunningham is the most consistently good player in the series." [16:01]

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4. Deep Dive: Draymond Green's Evolution and Impact

Key Players:

• Draymond Green (Warriors)
• Stephen Curry (Warriors)
• Kawhi Leonard (Clippers)

Discussion Highlights:

• Draymond Green as an Amplifier:

  • Draymond's unique skill set as a defensive powerhouse and playmaker makes him an invaluable asset to the Warriors.
  • Comparison to legendary "amplifier" players like Ben Wallace and Bobby Jones, highlighting his ability to elevate teammates' performances.

• Defensive Prowess:

  • Analysis of Draymond's defensive capabilities, including his versatility in guarding multiple positions and his exceptional passing skills on the move.
  • Zach posits that Draymond may be one of the greatest defensive players of his generation, alongside Rudy Gobert.

• Emotional and Competitive Nature:

  • Exploration of Draymond's competitive drive, emotional intensity, and occasional on-court incidents that have defined his career.
  • Discussion on how his leadership style both benefits and sometimes challenges team dynamics.

• Future with the Warriors:

  • Speculation on Draymond's future with the Golden State Warriors, considering his age and the team's evolving roster.
  • Conversations about potential contract negotiations and the sustainability of his role within the team.

Notable Quotes:

• Zach Lowe: "Draymond may not have a good sort of analog in the history of the NBA. Steph obviously has no analog." [75:44]
• Bill Simmons: "He's a totally unusual player and made the Warriors both unusual and better." [74:26]
• Zach Lowe: "He is a better 16 game defender. He's still a genius to." [93:45]

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5. Western Conference Playoff Scenarios

Teams Discussed:

• Minnesota Timberwolves
• Los Angeles Lakers
• Golden State Warriors
• Houston Rockets

Discussion Highlights:

• Minnesota Timberwolves' Strengths:

  • Emphasis on Anthony Edwards' rise as a superstar and the team's improved defense and depth.
  • Comparison to other top Western teams, considering their young and fresh roster.

• Los Angeles Lakers' Defensive Concerns:

  • Critique of the Lakers' rim protection and overall defensive strategy.
  • Discussion on the impact of injuries and veteran players on the team's performance.

• Golden State Warriors vs. Lakers Matchup:

  • Speculation on the Warriors' preference to face the Lakers over other Western contenders, given the Lakers' defensive vulnerabilities.
  • Analysis of how key players like Draymond Green and Stephen Curry influence potential outcomes.

• Houston Rockets' Playoff Performance:

  • Assessment of the Rockets' strategic decisions and player performances, particularly the challenges posed by defensive teams.

Notable Quotes:

• Zach Lowe: "Anthony Edwards has joined the party. He's now a superstar." [27:29]
• Bill Simmons: "I think they could win game six, but I just didn't. Unless they completely reinvent themselves for a game seven." [11:25]
• Kirk Goldsberry: "If the Pistons win in Detroit, look out." [23:48]

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6. Player Development and Team Chemistry

Key Topics:

• Cade Cunningham (Pistons):

  • Highlighting Cunningham's consistent performance and potential as a franchise cornerstone.

• Tyler Herro (Heat):

  • Discussion on Herro's development and his impact on the Heat's offensive strategies.

• Gary Trent Jr. (Cavaliers):

  • Analysis of Trent's clutch performances and his role in the Cavaliers' success.

Notable Quotes:

• Kirk Goldsberry: "Jalen Duran is growing up in front of us. This kid, he's a monster in person." [19:33]
• Bill Simmons: "Tatum's just been awesome. He’s got this little half sneer he does sometimes." [28:04]

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7. Historical Comparisons and Legacy

Key Points:

• Legacy of the Warriors' "Big Three":

  • Comparison of the Curry-Green-Thompson trio to historical NBA lineups known for their chemistry and impact.

• Defensive Greats:

  • Ranking Draymond Green among NBA's all-time great defenders alongside legends like Bill Russell and Ben Wallace.

• Franchise Decisions and Team Building:

  • Critique of franchise management decisions, including trades and draft picks, and their long-term impact on team success.

Notable Quotes:

• Bill Simmons: "He might be the most versatile defender in modern NBA history." [75:44]
• Zach Lowe: "Draymond's ability to play center on defense and switch across every position is completely unique." [75:44]

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8. Conclusion and Future Outlook

Discussion Highlights:

• Upcoming Playoff Games:

  • Preview of upcoming matchups, including the Lakers vs. Timberwolves series, and potential scenarios involving the Warriors.

• Player Health and Team Performance:

  • Emphasis on the importance of player health in determining playoff outcomes.
  • Expectations for key players to perform pivotal roles in upcoming games.

• Draymond Green's Continued Impact:

  • Optimism about Draymond's ability to influence games despite aging, highlighting his resilience and defensive mastery.

Notable Quotes:

• Bill Simmons: "Draymond Green is the greatest international story they've ever had, other than Hakeem and Curry." [88:39]
• Zach Lowe: "He is like, there's no answer. Tobias Harris has no chance." [21:14]

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Final Thoughts

This episode provides an in-depth analysis of the current NBA playoff landscape, highlighting the performances of key players and their implications for their respective teams. The conversation underscores the significance of player versatility, defensive prowess, and team chemistry in navigating the high-stakes environment of the playoffs. The deep dive into Draymond Green's role offers listeners a nuanced understanding of what makes him an invaluable asset to the Warriors and how his unique skill set continues to influence modern basketball strategies.

Notable Transcripts for Reference:

• "Jamal Murray, but there is a little bit of an underwhelming current from these Los Angeles Clippers to me." – Kirk Goldsberry [05:09]
• "Draymond may not have a good sort of analog in the history of the NBA." – Zach Lowe [75:44]
• "He is a totally unusual player and made the Warriors both unusual and better." – Bill Simmons [74:26]

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Disclaimer: This summary is based on the transcript provided and aims to capture the essence and key discussions of the podcast episode. For detailed insights and full context, listening to the actual episode is recommended.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

You're listening to the Bill Simmons podcast, presented by FanDuel. FanDuel has made it easier than ever to see how your bets are doing without even opening the app. Now you can get the latest updates. Follow along in real time directly from your phone's lock screen. Yeah, or Apple Watch. No login required, just head to your My Bets page to turn it on. If you don't already have it. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app today to get in on the action. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end of this episode for additional details. You must be 21 plus in President select states gambling problem. Call 100 Gamble or visit rg-help.com Coming up, I'm going to talk about a new sport I just heard about. Basketball. It's next. This episode is brought to you by Vrbo Private Vacation Rentals. With Vrbo, you can save over $200 on select homes when you stay for a week or more. Say you wanted to go catch a few baseball games in Boston. Take some time off work, fly into Beantown, watch the Sox play. After that, book a VRBO in Cape Cod for a week. The world the world is your oyster. Lobster roll Clam chatter With the money you saved, it's your edible metaphor of choice. Next vacation, stay longer and save. Make it a vrbo. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. I put up a new rewatchables Last night. We did Someone to Watch Over Me. It is a movie with Tom Barring, Mimi Rogers and Lorraine Bracco from 1987, directed by Ridley Scott. It is an absolute cable classic. It was a one for us, for me and Chris Ryan. I broke down during this pod about as hard as I've ever laughed during a podcast. It gets super goofy. And after we do one for us, we always like to do a giant movie. So a giant movie is coming next week. Stay tuned for that. I hope you're checking out the ringer.com Hope you're checking about all of our Ringer podcast stuff, The Bill Simmons YouTube channel, which we go live on Sundays with Priscilla. We kind of staggered it. We did a late live and an early one with Rosilla and Van on Sunday. That was super fun. FanDuel, by the way, I've been working with them. We're going to start this new gimmick on Wednesday with lakers timberwolves game 5. You can tail or fade my pick each week I'm going to pick a player prop. I'm going to go in, I'm going to say what I think is going to happen. You can either believe me or not believe me. I just hit on Sunday. I hit a plus 9214 leg parlor. It was pretty impressive, I got to say. Let's see if I can keep the momentum going. So I have LeBron over nine and a half rebounds I think is going to be the one. You can either back me or you can go against me. But if you do it, FanDuel is offering you an opportunity to have a 50% boost either way so you win. If you like what I thought or you want to go against what I thought. Anyway, check out FanDuel Sportsbook on Wednesday to see what boost I'm betting, what bet I'm boosting. I just told you what it was. And then you can apply that profit boost. I love when the customers ride with me. I've been decent. So there you go. Coming up on this podcast, Kurt Goldsberry and I, we watched four basketball games. I was watching some hockey too, and we were reacting right afterwards to everything we saw. And then a little bit later, Zach Lowe, he came on last week on a Tuesday and we banged something fun. We did it again this week. We want to talk about Draymond Green and we want to look forward to Timberwolves Lakers. So that is the podcast today. First, our friends from Pearl Jab recording this part of the podcast. 9:45 Pacific Time I thought the Clippers Denver game was going to be a lot better. I thought Kurt Goldsberry and I would be talking about all these unbelievable narratives. Instead. All the narratives came in the first game of the day and the second game of the day and then the games got worse as they went along. But Denver kind of put it on the Clippers tonight. Kirk. I did not see this coming. I thought Denver was lucky to be 2 2. I thought the Clippers were a better team and Jamal Murray became playoff Jamal Murray again tonight. Harden was invisible. Where do you want to start? What jumped out to you tonight?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

You got to start with Jamal Murray. I mean, that was the game they needed from him in this series, in this exact moment. It was his best playoff game since the bubble. The Clippers look tired, though. The Clippers looked. I don't know if it was elevation or they just hadn't had enough rest, but they looked like they were slower to the basketball. They looked old. And you sort of alluded to a Bill James Harden did not look very Good. I think the headline's gotta be Jamal Murray, but there is a little bit of an underwhelming current from these Los Angeles Clippers to me.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, if you said before the game, Jamal Murray is going to have his best game of the playoffs and his best game in a while, and also Russell Westbrook's going to come off the bench and score 21 points in 23 minutes. I would have said, oh, the Clippers are in trouble, but I'm with you. They look slow to the ball. There was a moment in the fourth quarter for four or five minutes where they looked like they did earlier in the series, but other than that, the hardened thing is just dumbfounding. I can't. You know, he's. He's now in his mid-30s. He was in the 2008 draft, 2009 draft, I can't even remember. And this has just been such a huge part of his. His resume, his career. How we're going to remember him 30 years from now is like this amazing player and just over and over again, it wasn't quite there in the playoffs. They really needed a big James Harden game, either last game or this game. One of those two. Does he have it in him anymore? Maybe. Are we expecting too much? Because I voted for him for 13 NBA this year. I thought maybe, you know, one of the first five games he could, he could own. I guess not.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Three of nine tonight. I mean, players that shot more than him. Zubach had 15 shots, Kawhi had 15 shots. Norm Powell had 12 shots. Bogdanovich had 11 shots. Three of nine, Bill. And then, okay, maybe he's getting it done with the dimes. No. Barely had five assists. A lot of those were later in the game. I was just. No, I'm ready to say if it's a big game, like a game five and big series like this, I just. I'm almost more expectant of this kind of performance from him at this point, which is a sad. So I don't think we're ever going to see it now. Maybe he. We. We get another chance here in game six or game seven. And he tells me I'm wrong with a performance that. That just turns back the cl. But this was just a complete no show from a guy who's had a bunch of no shows over the last 10 years in big moments like this.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I did a. I did a rare tweet. I tweeted that they had him guarding Jokic in the second half so we could remember that he was in the game. Cause it was too hard to. To tell they're built so that they could survive kind of an offensive no show game from Harden.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

The problem for them was Denver. Denver went up a notch. They kind of stayed the same. Denver got Westbrook back, which was huge for them because that was just 23 extra minutes from a bench guy. They played Jordan a little bit more. I'm with you. Maybe the elevation going against an older team helped a tiny bit. But then, you know, I start thinking about some of the stuff I used to write about back when my fingers worked. And this is a Clippers team that has just been snake bitten really since they moved to Southern California. And that loss, they had game four where they fought all the way back and then they lose on an alley oop where the ball seemed like it was touching the tip of Aaron Gordon's fingers and it ends up counting because they couldn't overrule it. And that loss was so devastating. I'm watching the game tonight, I'm like, man, maybe that, maybe that beat the fight out of them a little bit. I don't know.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

This is a team that was supposed to be one of the best defenses in the playoffs. One of the best defensive rebounding teams in the playoffs that I kept going back to is I think they ranked first in defensive rebounding percentage all year long. And then in this playoffs, they ranked 15 out of 16 in that category. Some of that is, is because of Jokic, but this is also a defense. When Jamal Murray gets going, you'd think Kawhi Leonard or Chris Dunn or some combination of Ty Lou schemes could do it. And they just didn't have the fight tonight at all. And I don't know what, how many points did the Clippers end up with? 1 31. Bill Simmons.

[Bill Simmons]

The Nuggets.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah, sorry. The Nuggets ended up with 1:31, Bill. And that's just. To me, that's a dumb guy stat. But that's what you need to know. You're not going to win a lot of playoff games if you give up 131 points. So this is a proud defense that just laid an egg tonight.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And you think like, big picture with the Clippers, it's. It's never easy with them in a playoff series. In the history of their franchise since they moved to Southern California, they've never won a playoff series in four, four or five games ever. Like, think about how impossible that is.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

That's crazy.

[Bill Simmons]

They had the 2021 where Kawhi is averaging 30 a game and looking like the one of the best guys in the league, he gets hurt. They end up losing the Western finals. Only time they ever made it. They blew the 31 lead to Denver in 2020. They blew that 19 point lead to the Rockets in 2015 when they had a chance to close and go to the west finals. They blew that OKC series in 2014 when Chris Paul, the point God, just completely fell apart in game Game five when they could have had a lead coming back to Clippers. They had that 2006 against the Suns when they put in Daniel Ewing and he fouled Raja Bell on a three and the Suns ended up winning an ot. This is just the legacy of this team. And if you talk to any of their fans, they, it's almost a little like junior Red sox itch before 2004. They build the hopes up. They, they convince themselves this is the year and then they get kicked in the nuts. I still think they can win game six. What's a little scary is that Jokic didn't put a lot of miles on himself tonight. Murray carried everything. Westbrook carried some. They were able to rest him and he could just snap his fingers in Game 6 and dominate them like he did in Game 4. It's looking bleak for the Clippers. I, I might have been wrong in this series, Kirk. I'm bummed.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I was wrong too. I remember, but I was like very scared coming into the playoffs because I was like looking at this Clippers team, they have that history you just mentioned, but then they have James Harden, Kawhi Leonard and Ben Simmons, who, by the way.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, enough.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

What a beautiful shot tonight. He had. He got to the, just inside the paint. He rises up for that little half hook and he almost hit the rim, God bless him.

[Bill Simmons]

It was to the left of the basket. It was. He shot it at 10:30 at night on a clock. It just was diagonal to the left. It was rough.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

But on Verno's podcast, like three weeks ago, when all the trends that I look at throughout the year are pointing to the Clippers are the best analytic team closing the season. And I.

[Bill Simmons]

Except they're the Clippers.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Except they're the Clippers. And I was like, I'm not going to know what to do. I picked them to win this series in seven games too. I now would. I wish I could switch it. They just, they just haven't been there. And I, I think they could win game six, but I just didn't. Unless they completely reinvent themselves for a game seven. What we saw in Denver tonight's not going to get it done, obviously.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. But I mean, the counter is. They have been there. Kawhi's been the finals MVP in two different cities. Harden's been in the playoffs for his entire career. Derrick Jones was in the finals last year. Norm has been in big playoff games. Ty Lu coached in the finals a bunch of times. Van Gundy was in big games.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Derrick Jones was in the finals last year.

[Bill Simmons]

This is about as experienced of a. Of a random team as you're going to get. They don't have the best player in the series, which is a problem, and they're just trying everything possible to mess with them. But I think the, the best thing that happened to the Nuggets in this series, other than Jamal Murray seems to be getting better as it's going along. Christian Brown's doing it really seems like he's in Harden's head a little bit. He just. He's low to the ground and seems to have a sense of that herky jerky style that Harden has. And he's kind of. He's doing the defensive herky jerky version of it and he's moving back and forth with it. And I think Harden's just having a lot of trouble going by him in game four in the fourth quarter. I think. Cause Brown was tired. Harden started going by him in the fourth quarter, but I think it might have been tired legs more than anything. But Brown seems really confident against him.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah, I think if we say there's Harden, Leonard in one corner and then you have Jokic and Murray in the other corner. The second tier guys, the Brown and Aaron Gordon obviously have been great. Those like guy number three and guy number four, those have been the Nuggets guys that have gone. Christian Brown hit that huge 3 I thought to end the third quarter in this game, which really set the tone. He's really an emotional leader. That's sort of a big thing for him. And you mentioned earlier, Russell Westbrook getting a performance like that too, is just a huge gift and another reason they put him over the top tonight.

[Bill Simmons]

Did Denver, watching them these last five games, and especially game four, Game five, did it change your opinion at all about whether they could actually throw some haymakers at okc?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

The defense is still a big red flag to me. The defense is. I don't know if they're going to keep up with the Oklahoma City Thunder if they play them in the next round. So I still think that's their Achilles heel. I don't think they'll be able to hold up on that end of the court against that young, ferocious, deep team with so much rest and so much energy coming into that series. So they've won me over with this, this, this, this starting five. The Murray Jokic Porter who has come around in this series, it feels like.

[Bill Simmons]

He'S after a game one no show.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah. And getting called out kind of. I mean, by, by the joker. But that, that starting group, I think, can hang where I have trouble. Bill is below that line where the Thunder are just. They almost have a second starting five, and this team has, you know, Russell Westbrook and DeAndre Jordan.

[Bill Simmons]

OKC versus Denver, if that's what we end up with. It's an MVP battle too, which is always fun.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Oh, that's great. And it's a, It's a big, big Hartenstein test. That's why they got that guy.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, and also Denver got rid of Hartenstein.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

James Harden, man, I, I don't know. I had a couple people in my life are like, why are you so high on the Clippers? They have James Harden. I'm like, no, James Harden was good this year. It's like, it's different this year. He's James Harden. It's different, dude. It's like, no, this time is different. I'm the one for Kim Kardashian. She told me this is it. It's going to work out this time for her, that she's going to live happily ever after. We'll see what happens Thursday night. I'm going. The crowd will be great. We're due for. If you had to pick a seven game series out of the available choices, which are probably this one, Golden State, Houston, even though Golden State's up three one, Minnesota and the Lakers, which will be three two after tomorrow. And when the Lakers shoot 68 free throws or Detroit versus the Knicks, who would you go for? A seven gamer? Because we're getting one.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

That's just the rule I feel like Detroit needs. They need to win one of these games. They had a tough weekend back home in Michigan. I think they're going to win game six back at Little Caesars.

[Bill Simmons]

You want to talk about that game?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah, I thought it was a great game. You know, New York is fortunate that there wasn't a late foul call at the end of Sunday's game. Yes, they were, but they've been playing with fire in the series and they've been getting away with it. I think, you know, they had a poorly timed injury here at the end of this game. But, you know, the Pistons have been Ahead Bill, in every fourth quarter of this series. I think in game one, they weren't ready for the smoke of the moment. But since then, these games all could have gone either way to an extent. And I think tonight Cade Cunningham, they played better pick and roll offense than the New York Knicks. And they took it to him. And I'm not shocked, but I was impressed.

[Bill Simmons]

25, 10 and 10 for Cade. Seven turnovers. It's been an extra three turnovers a game for him because he has the ball so much. But the stat that jumped out to me, Detroit 7 for 29 from 3 and they went on the road. That's really hard to do. Yeah, the, the Knicks 15 for 33 from three. So they were plus eight on threes, right? And they lost at home. But the key to this game, so Detroit, they shoot 8 for 29 from 3. No surprise. They've not exactly, if Beasley's not going, not exactly like an awesome three point team. But the Knicks 9 for 25 from 3, right? So red flag number one, red flag number two, Brunson, 4 for 16. And it's hard to tell how hurt he is. Sometimes you can do like he got hurt in game four and he came back and you get the adrenaline 20 minutes before your, your ankle starts to feel even worse than it did. He definitely looked hobbit around. He goes out at some point, probably like what, three, four minutes left in the fourth quarter. Then Tibbs has a chance to put him and Hart back in and doesn't use his last time out. And those guys are just standing there for a minute and a half. One of many bizarre Tibbs coaching decisions. But I. What you said before about the quarters, this series has been even for a week and a half. And Detroit, they, they take the leads early in these games or they're close, they hold like that. They're never like having really swoons. Their defense and their rebounding's always been able to keep them around. And Cade's been, you know, the most consistently good player in the series. I don't if, if I'm a Knicks fan now, I'm just putting miles. Even if I get through the series, I'm just putting miles on my guys who already seem worn down with the Celtics just getting rest and waiting. But do you think they like. Who do you think wins a game six between these two teams? Based on what you've seen, I think it's going to be a hard task for them.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Detroit played better basketball tonight. You know, I think the play that sealed it for Detroit, in my mind, one of the most beautiful passes of the playoffs. But, but Detroit just picked apart the Knicks in the pick and roll game. Jalen Duran is growing up in front of us. This kid, he's a monster in person. If you haven't seen him. It's just like one of these guys. It's just a different size than everybody else. One of the great rebounders in these playoffs. But I think like there was a pick and roll near the end, you know, the, the Knicks sent two towards Kate who ended up at the right elbow. And who was it who snuck into the dunksar? Thompson, who also played a great game.

[Bill Simmons]

He was awesome today. Yeah.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Sneaks. Yeah. Cat falls asleep and Cade throws that pass, a rocket pass right into the dunker and Oster finishes it. And it was, it wasn't quite curtains cause the Knicks made some shots. But that was just a, I think really emblematic of a bread and butter play where the Cade Cunningham pick and roll with Duran and sometimes it was Paul Reed is just basic basketball and it looks better, especially with a hobbled Brunson, than what the Knicks are able to counter with. So I think the Pistons have a very good defense. They're very young and motivated to win this game six at home and the fundamental basketball they're playing right now. And one other thing is like you talk a lot about tips coaching. I know that. Can we post up Carl Townes on Tobias Harris, please? He, he, he just dominates him when they do.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like they're afraid he's going to get offensive fouls or something. I can't think of another reason.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I have no idea. But every time they do it, it's like there's no answer. Tobias Harris has no chance.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you know my rule, Kurt Goldsberry. If you do, if you do something and the defense completely overreacts and doubles it because they don't have an answer for it, maybe do it again. Yeah, give it a whirl. That might be a sign that, that it's something to do.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Particularly if Jalen Brunson is, is, is playing on one foot. I don't know what his injury is. I'm not, I'm not speaking out of turn here. But if your star is hurt, you have this other guy, this other bread and butter action you could increase. And if it's going to be Tobias Harris defending Carl Towns on the block, dude, make them pay for that. Go old school.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

You know, and I haven't seen enough of that. Those adjustments from tips.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought the Knicks Were going to win in five. It seemed like they were going to win in five tonight. And then Detroit had other ideas. I just continue to be underwhelmed by the Knicks. And I know now people could say no. Brunson's hurt. Like, well, everybody on that team plays huge minutes. The more minutes you play, the odds are going to increase that you're going to have an injury. It's just the way it goes. But in general, I don't know. They did. Like, I'm not afraid of them. I said this before the playoffs. I'll say it again. I was way more afraid of playing Indiana than the Knicks. I think Indiana knows who they are. I think they have an identity. And the Knicks, not sure what their identity is. It's a lot of Brunson. It's a lot of standing around. They can have these little spurts. Towns can get hot every once in a while. Sometimes their wings look awesome. Other times I forget they're out there for all the quote, unquote awesome defense that their wings were supposed to bring, like, over and over again. You see guys get the kind of shots and plays they want. Like Cade, you would think, like with Bridges and an obi, it's like, we should be able to shut down Cade or limit him or whatever. And, you know, I don't think that's happened. And a lot of it has to do with CJ able to get the switches he wanted. I get it, but I just don't. The balance of the team just doesn't seem right to me. And I felt that way for a while.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah, there's two things. The interior defense with Towns, when they made the Towns deal, that was always the red flag to me. Are we really going to see a playoff defense anchored with Carl Anthony Towns? And as I said, at this key moment, you know, it's. It's not his fault, but that's who you're relying on to be your rim protector.

[Bill Simmons]

He's.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

He's not always great at that. And then the other thing is sometimes the offense looks like crap and there's. There's multiple possessions in big moments where it's just Brunson pounding the air out of the ball and everybody else standing around and there's either going to be a foul or some kind of fade away and nobody else is going to touch the basketball. And I hate that. I hate watching it. And I'm sure the players playing alongside, it's just not.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think the fans like it either. You can feel like there's A weird energy from these Knicks games. The crowds were way better last year. I think this year there's a nervous energy and you could feel the frustration. It's coming through the tv.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah, the pick and roll game, too. It's like they only scored 27 points in the pick and roll game. And, and, and the Pistons doubled them up in that category again. Cade Cunningham, it's a lot of people's introduction to him, but you know, there's a danger. Cause if they do win in Detroit, look out. Look out, Bill.

[Bill Simmons]

If the Pistons win.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

If the Pistons win in Detroit, look out.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, so that game's going to be. When is that? A Thursday game? That is. Yeah.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

I feel like that's not great for the Knicks. Right. That's. That's two games later and Brunson topping around and hark out her at the end of that game and they have no bench to begin with. And dude, that's such an underrated young.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

That's such an underrated part of this. Like Cleveland getting out in four games and OKC get. Yeah, the Celts getting out of there today.

[Bill Simmons]

The Celts punted on holiday for the series and kept their fingers crossed that he could get healed. And they got out of it.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah, and they just need all that treatment, some cold plunges, you know, all that rest. And these other teams are gonna be flying back and forth, putting more miles on their bodies, twisting ankles. It's such an underrated part of this. So it was good that Boston emerged relatively unscathed from that Orlando series.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I wouldn't talk about that. Let's take a quick break and we'll talk Boston, Orlando. Hey, it's NBA playoff time. Get in on the action with FanDuel Sportsbook, our friends, America's number one sports book. You think you know it's going to go down. Well, check out Wednesdays because you can make those predictions count with the hump day parlay, profit boost, weekly parlay, specials tied to top point scores, double doubles, whatever you want. I'm also going to be doing a little special gimmick that you can find on FanDuel Sportsbook where you can tail or fade me. I'm going to release my prop on Wednesday for the Lakers Timberwolves game. And I think it's going to be LeBron over, under rebounds, because I like the over. I think it's nine and a half. But you can tail me on that or you can go against me. You can have either choice. Choose your own adventure. Don't Be a spectator during this awesome NBA postseason. Head to findal.com BS and download America's number one sportsbook and make every moment more you can do hump day bets. You can do my little Taylor Fade Bet you must be 21 + in President in select states or 18 + in prison in DC. Opt in required bonus issued as non withdrawable profit boost tokens. Restrictions apply including any token expiration of Max Wager Amount C [e-mail] Gamma Problem Call 100 Gamble or visit rg-help.com this episode is brought to you by Degree Original Cool Rush Deodorant. Remember last year people got really mad when Degree changed their Cool Rush formula. One dude even started a petition. What was up with that guy? Well, guess what? ° listened. They admitted they messed up. They're bringing back the original Cool Rush scent and thank God. You've got to love when a brand can own its mistakes. And it's in Walmart, Target and other stores right now for under $4. Grab some. Find out why it's been the number one men's antiperspirant for the last decade. By the way, you should put that on especially. We're about to hit the summer. It's getting sweaty in the summers. The original Degree Cool Rush is back and it smells like victory for all of us. So Boston, Orlando, I was expecting a little bit more of a slugfest. It was a weird game. It was close. It was close. It was co close. Paolo got in foul trouble and then the Celts went on one of those runs that they had a lot last year. They've had them intermittently this year, but more on the road than at home, weirdly. But they'll just have these third quarters or second quarters, whatever, where they'll just go on these like 28 to five runs and guys are hitting threes and they just put the game away in five minutes, which is what happened. I will say, and I know I talk about Tatum a lot on this podcast and people are probably tired of it, but he's just. Tatum's just been awesome.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And there's. There's an edge to him that he just didn't have last year, and I think a lot of it comes from Missoula. I think Missoula spends a lot of time talking to him, talking in his ear, motivating him, pushing him. Pushing. Be bully. Pushing. Be tougher. Even that play when he got knocked down, when he got hurt in game two or game one, and Missoula's like, get Up. Get up. Like, he's just. He's just constantly trying to make him a beast. And you see it in these games. Like he's carrying himself now. He's got this little half sneer he does sometimes. Yeah, I just think he's been awesome in these games.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Is the new wrist thing that he's doing related to the injury? Is it like a celebration of overcoming the wrist injury? Is that what he's doing?

[Bill Simmons]

It feels like you try to break my wrist, but it's still here. Like one of those type of things.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

But that's new. I like that, too.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. But the thing is, Orlando can't shoot. And, you know, they were the over under for them. Winning a game in this series was probably 0.5. They won their game, but they just cannot. They can't shoot. There was that. As it was slippery in the third quarter, Franz took a three and it went like over the backboard and hit the. Over the rim and hit the other side of the backboard. It was one of those bricks. And it was just like, that's it. That's the highlight. You need to know 8 of 38.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

From 3 for the Orlando Magic. There's a couple of teams in the playoffs, like Houston, I think we'd fairly characterize as they're having trouble scoring the ball, but Orlando's going to definitely have trouble shooting the basketball. And then the other thing I like is Orlando does play phenomenal defense. And for a long time, the Celtics, I think, had no threes deep into the second quarter in the.

[Bill Simmons]

No, they didn't. They didn't have a three in the first. In the first half.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah, I was trying to go back between these two games, and it was. It was pretty incredible. Like, so shout out to them. They. They. They do some good stuff, and they force you into these isolation modes. And that's where Tatum really shined, I thought. And I know sometimes the Celtics are at their worst in those isolation moments, but Tatum can get buckets in those moments. And they actually, if you look at the advanced stuff tonight, they really dominated in that isolation category. And duh, that's Jason Tatum. But, you know, it was 59, 58 to your point, with 6 minutes left in the third quarter. And then I don't know what the final score was. I guess it ends up being 120 to 89.

[Bill Simmons]

They were 36 to 13 in the third quarter. You know, I think the Celtics organization has been really impressed with Orlando, and I think there's a sense of relief that that team wasn't healthier this year that that team was probably the third best team in the East. If you just, you know, you think like, Palo goes down for a while, Franz goes down for a while, Suggs goes down for 60, 65% of the year. But that team is really tough. They're not afraid of the Celts. They match up on the wings with Brown and Tatum, at least physically. They rebound. They had a couple playoff guys that weren't afraid to close on you. And I think if they just had a healthy team all year, I think that team would have been really good and looking forward. Like we were joking with Cerutty about you got to sign Ty Jerome. Bobby Marks had a tweet where he tweeted where they were sitting going into the summer. They've kind of paid the piper already with some of their moves. They're like over, I think 200 million with their salaries right now because Paulo already kicked in Franz, you know, they paid KCP going down the line. Like they're. They're spending actual money now. And I don't. This is kind of the team. So their best move is going to be Ken Suggs come back, be healthy, and then can Anthony Black make a leap, I think.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

And Franz needs to develop the jump shot and there's been some aggression there. You mentioned this. There's the hitch in the shot. It's not great, but if they can get healthy, Mo Wagner, Jalen Suggs, you know, I'm not going to put them in the class of the Celtics or the Cavs, but I like where you.

[Bill Simmons]

Have Indiana 3, 4.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

They could replace Milwaukee in that 3, 4, 5 tier. And they, they might have been there this year if they had just been healthy. You, you alluded to it. Their three best guys all missed significant time and they ended up at the seventh spot and won a game against the champs. It's just like the rung on the ladder this organization is at right now. And I think they should expect to be a little bit higher next year for sure.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the Celts definitely respected them because they brought Tatum back. They probably should have waited one more game and they felt like they couldn't. And then they tried to roll the dice with not playing Drew and hoping he could be healthy for the Knicks series. Now he gets more time. But with the way the Knicks look, that second round series might not be as maybe grueling as as you thought. The team you wouldn't want to play is Indiana.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

You're confident. You're confident.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, the way the Knicks look at that the way the Celtics have looked for the last almost two years, like I, they. They have to be like pretty heavy, heavy favorites to advance to round three. Indiana had an incredible comeback against Milwaukee that I wasn't surprised by. Even when they were down 7 with 45 seconds left. I had Indian moneyline and a bet and I was like, I'm not giving up. I feel like they might make a three. I didn't expect them to win. I thought maybe they had a chance to force another overtime. But. But Halliburton and I'm text. I have a friend who, who's a big Hall Burton person. And I was texting midway through the fourth quarter. I'm like, typical fucking Halliburton. God forbid he takes over and does anything. And then he took over and then some. Like down the stretch in the fourth quarter. It's almost like he forgets sometimes that he could just go right by people. And what was, what was interesting about the end of the fourth quarter in the ot, he went by Giannis. He cooked Giannis. I'm gonna say three or four times and nobody. I. You don't normally see somebody do that to Giannis. I would. Including for the game winning shot. I was stunned. Were you surprised by that?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah, I said, I said out loud, good luck with that for the game winner. Cause he's like, he's isoed on the left wing against Giannis and he's like, I'm going to take this to the rack.

[Bill Simmons]

That's crazy. He did it multiple times.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah, good luck. And he did it in that exact moment. I was surprised. We have to go through the seven point lead in 40 seconds. So AJ Green misses a free throw. Nem hard, uses like a Miles Turner screen. And Giannis, this is his fault. He's in drop coverage. So Nemhard just rises up and choose a 28 footer. Okay, so four foot, four point game. Timeout. Here comes the first big blunder. AJ Green inbounds and Trent gets trapped, anticipates a foul. Didn't come, and just throws a bad pass. Nemhardt picks it off. Pacer's pretty patient. Then, then we get the first big Halliburton play, the three point play. That cuts it to one timeout. And then this is one of the most depressing plays in NBA history.

[Bill Simmons]

The trip through the legs.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Oh, dude, I don't want to. I don't want to tell you what it reminded me of, Bill, because it'll trigger young.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I thought, I thought Buck there. No, don't worry. I thought.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I thought, all right, as long as. Yeah, so, dude.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, the dude had had. He hadn't had 30 points all year, and he hadn't had eight threes all year, and he did it twice in three games. Trent. Right.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

He.

[Bill Simmons]

He literally carried them down the stretch and then had two boneheaded plays that cost them the season, basically.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I did a rare tweet myself. I said, you know, overtime score, Indiana 8, Gary Trent, 12. Because it looked like with one minute left in this. In this game, like Gary Trent had just saved the Buck season.

[Bill Simmons]

I feel he took 25 shots. Kirk.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah, he became the second biggest player in Milwaukee after, you know, after the Dame injury, and he felt. Yeah, he made huge three after huge three. And then these two mammoth turnovers. Just a cruel, cruel end to their season and potentially bill the Giannis onto Takumbo era.

[Bill Simmons]

There's a lot of interesting stuff, both from watching the game and the box score.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Brook Lopez, seven minutes. Kyle Kuzma, 12. So Doc basically bailed on Kuzma, who is somebody. They traded Middleton for beloved Buck to get under the Saddler cap. They gave up AJ Johnson, who some NBA people kind of like, and there's some swap, I think, in 28, that. That they gave up as well. And it took Doc Rivers about four games to get tired of Kyle Kuzma. Giannis leaves a 30, 2013 on the court, including 18 defensive rebounds, and the game ends with him getting burned by Hal Burton and then taunted by Hal Burton's dad, who just looked deranged. I didn't understand what's happening, and I can't believe Giannis had the restraint. But then Giannis is saying good. Saying good game to Ben Matheran, and now he's, like, doing the Fredo Michael Corleone cup for the head, like, and just looked like he was going to. Everyone was talking about this. Hundred guys against a gorilla. It seemed like it's going to be 100 Pacers versus Giannis at one point. The artest melee, too.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Dude, what an ending with them. Yeah. I have no idea where to start with what happened after the game from. From the Halliburton dad incident to the Matheran hug. That turns into a shove. And I'm not.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah, it was.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

It was.

[Bill Simmons]

I think Yanis was so mad at it. And, you know, Giannis does a good job in the press conferences of being like, you know, I try to be humble and blah, blah, blah, but Yanis is a badass, man. He gets mad. He. Oh, yeah, like the switch can go off with him. I was. I really felt like there was going to be a massive melee at the end which would.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

There's some troubling end of game stuff where he's. He's a very competitive guy and he's lost the school. Do you remember early in his career he. He tackled Mike Dunleavy, Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Remember that other time when he went. Was it Mike Dunleavy? Yeah, it was Mike Dunleavy Jr. That other time when he grabbed the ball from Indiana that started this whole. Yeah. So he gets a little feisty and.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I was, I was worried. And it also evokes and sort of gives the Pacers a little bit of credit and some shine here. It evokes like these incredible Reggie Miller moments from that franchise's history where they have. Oh my God. What. So they just got another one of these. Like what was. You did the 30 for 30. Was it 8.9 seconds?

[Bill Simmons]

That was one. Yeah, he had a bunch of them.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

No, but yeah, this seven, seven point comeback. 80 run in 34 seconds. Just unbelievable from the Pacers perspective too.

[Bill Simmons]

Also in that building, which I know you've probably been there for a game, right.

[Zach Lowe]

It's.

[Bill Simmons]

It's that and the Clippers arena are the two best arenas and just cool that that happened right there. I thought N.E. smith, you know, you look at the minutes and it's not really an accident. Halbert and Siakam, Nemhard N. Smith and Turner just all playing huge minutes. Four of those guys were over 40. Mather and he switched the rotational. So Mather and McConnell basically just come in for these little eight, nine minute stretches. That's it. Some top end. Not that much. But I think when we go to this next round, and I continue to. To think that they have a real chance against Cleveland to at least take it six or seven and throw some, throw some punches at them. But this Halburn piece, the. When he realizes he can get to the rim, who's stopping him? On Cleveland, like this is a good matchup for him. They don't really have like a good defender to throw at him. I don't know. I just think they can hang in this series.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

They're going to score points. I think the front line of the Cavs will have something to say between Mobley and Allen. And I like you know, DeAndre Hunter, I like you know, Ty Jerome obviously deserves some credit, but I think can we do a little bit more on Milwaukee? Like you look at this.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, let's do it. Let's. Can we do one More thing on Indiana and then let's do more.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go. Go ahead.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you think the line is for Indiana? Cleveland.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Indiana. Cleveland. Cleveland minus 200.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Cleveland minus 4. 80.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Oh, dang.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I'm telling you, nobody's respecting the Pacers. All right, let's move to Milwaukee because that did feel like I. Sometimes you. You have a feeling when it's a guy's last game for a team. I remember LeBron in 2010.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Leaving Boston in a very strange last game in general by him, but then taking off his jersey right at the end. And there's something. Some. He just felt like, oh, man, this is probably not ending well. The honest thing ended a little differently. It almost ended with a melee. But I find it hard to believe he's going to be a buck next year. I don't see it.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

And I was listening to Rob Mahoney and Zach, who were great the other day, and I'll stack on their point. Can you blame him? Look at what's happened around him at this franchise since they won it all. They've sort of taken the car apart piece by piece, and he's really all that's left. Like Lopez is there, Portis is there, but Middleton and Holiday are gone. You know, Bud is obviously gone. And what we see there is, you know, Khris Middleton for Kyle Kuzma. Are you kidding me? And Kuzma's not even playing in these games. Played 13 minutes, was 2:5.

[Bill Simmons]

I was. I did the. Was Mahoney trade deadline pot. And I was on the record adamantly. I did not see the Kuzman thing at all because he. He hadn't played a meaningful basketball minute or a good basketball minute for like a year.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Right. Since he was at Disney World in the pandemic. But yeah, I think. Can you blame him? I think is what Mahoney was saying. And I think it's fair. Like he got them a title.

[Bill Simmons]

Damian Lillard, can I blame him a.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Little bit for leaving, for wanting to leave? You can.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, can we blame him a little? Because they did that Drew Holiday trade for Dame Lillard because they were feeling some pressure with him to do something because they weren't sure if he wanted to stay or not. And that was. I thought it was a panic trade. When it happened, I was in the minority. But they gave up swaps in 28 and 30. They gave up their 29 first. They gave up Grayson Allen, who was. Had some, you know, at least was a bigger contract. They could put in a deal and when you think about it, they kind of shot their asset wad with Damon Giannis that I just never believed that made them like a favorite in the East. I, I thought it was a little bit of a Hail Mary. And were they. Would they been better off keeping Drew maybe using those picks with Grace now and Chris Middleton, whoever and trying to add another piece to the foundation. I mean, in retrospect, yes.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I'll always remember I was at the Grant Williams game in Boston. I don't know if you were there.

[Bill Simmons]

I was.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Zach was talking about it the other day. It's like a sliding doors moment. Right. Because I remember talking to everybody being like, man, it feels like we're going to be watching these two teams play for this Eastern Conference championship for a long time.

[Bill Simmons]

All decade. Yeah.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

And then this team is just. And that's why I think it's an interesting match. Macroscopic study. Like you can talk about this collapse in the last 34 seconds here, but really this is a collapse that's three or four years long and just goes to speak to the importance of ownership transactions, roster building. But dude, yeah, I thought that Giannis and Milwaukee were going to be a big time factor for a huge part of the 2000s and they simply haven't been since that Grant Williams game.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, it starts with the original Drew Holiday trade which helped win them the title.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

But also included their 24 and 26 firsts and swaps in 25 at 27, plus the George Hill Bledsoe contracts that they kind of were trying to get off of as part of the trade. But they're playing catch up. They're playing asset catch up after that.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah. And they've not made any good draft picks, Bill, during this, this crucial time where even if you get somebody like Dalton Connect or Corey Joseph, like when the spurs were picking at the Derrick White, we would always pick well at the end of the dejounte. Murray, you got to get those picks to keep the momentum going to add role players. And they just haven't been able to find anybody in the draft. They have AJ Johnson, Tyler Smith, Chris Livingston, Beauchamp, Isaiah Todd, RJ Hampton, Jordan, Aurora. Like nothing. That's their 2020s draft history. So it's just they haven't been able to build for from the draft either. And that's a huge reason why this roster's so thin too.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the red flag was when Lazari, the co owner, he finished his managing partner thing and then he's like, I'm outta here. And he sold this Stake to the Brown zoner. I was like, ah, that's curious. And it was like, you know, he was like 2008, the Big Short. He knew it was coming. Where do you want Giannis to go?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Oh, well, if San Antonio, just as.

[Bill Simmons]

A basketball fan, where do you want him to go?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I mean, I will again, hand up. I'm very biased like you are with the Celtics. I will say the San Antonio Spurs. I think it would be a really perfect pairing. Evoking the great Duncan. Tim Robinson era or David Robinson. Tim Duncan era.

[Bill Simmons]

Tim Robinson. Netflix comedian Tim Robinson.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Dude, I, I saw his, his new 24 movie. What is that called? But anyway, I think that's what about you.

[Bill Simmons]

San Antonio is the high upside. Holy shit. Like Galaxy brain explosion. And they have the assets, right? To do it. Yeah, but that's, that would be the one that I think made everybody go, oh no, what's that going to look like? I think that's a pretty weird fit in some ways offensively, but in other ways, the fact that Wemby wants to be 25ft from the basket and Giannis should probably be playing closer to the basket, maybe that fits. But defensively, that sounds like an all time nightmare from. How are you going to attack the rim against those two guys? You might as well. I think Jack Threes.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

It's just like David Robinson and Tim Duncan 20 years ago. Yeah, it's, it's, it's. That's why I love it. It's a fantasy of mine. Realistically, I don't, I don't know if that's a possibility. Have you thought about it, other destinations?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I mean, Rousseau and I talked about a little on Sunday. Just like the obvious ones. Houston, because they have. The problem for Milwaukee is they don't really have their picks. So it's not like they'd, you know, it's not like it makes sense for them to tank because what are they tanking for? They don't have their picks to tank four. So what makes more sense is like them doing a two for one and a three for one and getting a couple assets back with that. So that's, that's the Rockets, basically. That's one. And I think you're probably trying to get some sort of big piece. The Knicks are the other one that I think would be mildly intriguing if it was the Towns Bridges. Giannis going back with a contract. You start doing that.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

There's been smoke around Miami and Giannis for years.

[Bill Simmons]

He's in the same spot there that he's in with Milwaukee, Miami sucks. They just got absolutely annihilated in the Cleveland series. They had their whole team. It's not like somebody was missing again.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

When Ernie Johnson at halftime is like, this is the worst basketball game.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. We're not showing highlights. He's.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

He's saying that on air, by the way. He's not saying that at the water cooler before they go to the segment. He's saying that on air. That's how bad it was.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, we'll see. I don't, I don't think he's there next year, though. It did feel like there was some sort of finality to it, but you never know with these guys. Like, the key to me is he already won the title.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So when you've already won, it's like, ah, I don't know. I like it here. But there's always been some, some Brooklyn buzz. The problem like with a team like Brooklyn is can you give the assets back? That actually makes it make sense for Milwaukee, who can't tank. You know what, what's the point of Milwaukee going 20 and 62 next year if their pick is going somewhere else?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

They might not have a choice. We've seen that one before, too. But, um.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you mean about Wemby, by the way? Anything?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I think there he. His. His. He. He's on schedule to return for, for next season. I haven't heard anything specific medically, but he was caught playing soccer in Costa Rica on video. I don't know if you saw that, Bill. It was, it was a very interesting video.

[Bill Simmons]

It was like, I missed that video. That sounds great.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Hey, you gotta be deep onto the spurs message boards to see these, these great videos of Wemby playing soccer.

[Bill Simmons]

Do they rig the draft for Cooper flag for the spurs like they did with Tim Duncan in 1997, or. No.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Well, they just got two rookie of the years in a row, so why not go for three? I mean, shout out to Steven Castle, Stefan Castle, for getting the rookie of the year. Not a great class, but I thought he was deserving. I don't think they're going to rig the draft for the spurs to get Cooper flag, but dude can play. Dude. This guy's going to change the fate of wherever he gets. This is another one of the biggest lotteries of the century. Whoever gets that number one.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the good thing is there's other good guys. Like, even if you get the third or fourth pick in this draft, you're going to get somebody who's like, Even Edgecomb is like, A real guy. Like if he. The spurs got him and put him with Castle and all their wings, like, that's an amazing outcome.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah. The spurs have two picks they're pretty excited about. I think most likely outcome is right. 8 and 14, something like that. And. And they could combine those and try to move up. Or they've drafted pretty well in the past.

[Bill Simmons]

Or they send both of them to Milwaukee in the honest trade. Or they send them. I mean, talk about an international basketball team. That's like the league's wet dream.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I know.

[Bill Simmons]

Giannis is the greatest international story they've ever had, other than Hakeem and. And Wemby is going to be the true galaxy face of the league. They're hoping four or five years from now, unless Anthony Edwards takes that, too. Who do you have in Minnesota? Lakers.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

You have to take Minnesota at this point. You know, JJ Redick, I think, you know, there's two reasons, depth and defense. The Lakers don't have much either. And I think the stat was that nobody has ever played all five dudes for the last 24 minutes of a playoff game. And JJ just did that. That tells you something.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but Denver did the same thing on Saturday and it worked. And now we don't have to hear about it anymore because they won the game. JJ did it. I'm not defending jj. I don't understand why you would have paid Gabe Vincent for five minutes. He was. I feel okay with Gabe Vincent out there. I didn't get that you'd like to.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Think Jackson Hayes can do something, but I don't know. I think Minnesota just deserves credit. And the other thing is the defense. Los Angeles defense is not good enough. Jade McDaniels exposing them on drives. And no disrespect to Jade McDaniel, he's helping Minnesota win this series. But that goes to show that this is. This is not the Thunder defense, dude. This is not the Rockets defense. This is the Lakers defense. It's been a red flag for me for a while.

[Bill Simmons]

No rim protection, no rim runner.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Yeah, the rim just not really a Bob and. And Luca, like, has not been great on defense. And again, the Western Conference is unforgiving. You want to call it a weak link era of NBA basketball, Fine. We're hunting matchups. Whatever you want to say, Anthony Edwards is just the best offensive player in the series right now. And on top of that, I think Minnesota has a better defense and more depth. So I'm taking Minnesota. Bill, I agree. I think there might be a free throw discrepancy Tomorrow. Is it tomorrow? I'm guessing it's tomorrow.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm going tomorrow and I'm just going to be laughing the whole time.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

You're going to games back to back, huh?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yes. Sports basketball, playoff basketball. No, it's the best. Sadly, it's going to be over soon. Have you seen anything that makes you think it's not going to be Boston okc?

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I think Cleveland deserves a little more respect. And the Drew Holiday hamstring injury, Bill Simmons not happy about it. Yeah, not great. So look, Cleveland, I think if Boston is limited somehow, Cleveland is a very dangerous team. So Drew Holiday and Street Clothes is my answer to that question. Have I seen anything that makes me think Boston might not get there? If he comes back. I love that dude. If Porzingis is healthy, if Tatum is playing like this, Jaylen Brown, Derrick White. Peyton. Peyton Pritchard, Joe Missoula. I think they deserve to be favorites coming out of the east, but Cleveland is shooting the shit out of the basketball. They've been a great team all year. They've won in Boston, if I'm not mistaken.

[Bill Simmons]

No, Mitchell. Mitchell always does well against Celtics. They're always good games. It'll be a good series.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I'm picking Boston, but I will not be shocked whether it's because Drew Holiday's limited. Somebody else goes down that Cleveland wins the Eastern Conference. So I think that's the case on the West Western side. Okc, again, clear favorite. I don't see anybody in their class right now on the Western Conference side.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't either. But who knows with this Minnesota piece and who knows with Golden State? Because Golden State's love playing OKC forever. And you know, I'm not gonna. I'm just. I would, if I had to bet, I would stick with my preseason okc, Boston. But I think Minnesota and Golden State and then the way Denver played tonight, who knows? All right. Kurt Goldsberry, writingfortheringer.com, popping on our podcast. Always good to see you.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

Thank you, Bill. Good to see you.

[Bill Simmons]

This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. During the season, every baseball team plays 162 games. It's a true test of endurance. It's not enough to have a hot month or two. You need sustained dominance throughout. Well, the same is true for your small business. It's not enough to have a great Q2, even a great year. You want year over year growth that starts with better hires that'll be there for the long haul. To find Those hires, use LinkedIn. LinkedIn has strong hiring data and insights that you won't find anywhere else to help pair you with the best candidates, from unique skills and interests to the connections you have in common. Based on LinkedIn data, 72% of small businesses say that LinkedIn helps them find high quality talent. LinkedIn also lets you go beyond people who are actively applying in a given week. 171 million LinkedIn members aren't actively seeking jobs, but they are open to new opportunities. That's a big pool to miss out on. If you're not hiring with LinkedIn. Find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com Simmons that's LinkedIn.com Simmons to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. What do I look forward to every NBA playoff season? Well, I'm always hoping the Celtics do well. I'm always hoping we have great storylines, great games, great, great matchups. Great game Sevens. I just hope for good basketball. But the NBA playoffs are even better with Michelob Ultra, the official beer partner of the NBA. Plus, they're getting fans closer to the game with a chance to win courtside tickets and more. Enter now at michelobotro.com Courtside Michelob Ultra Superior Access Courtside 2024-25 sweepstakes. No purchase necessary. Open to US residents 21 or older. Ends on July 1, 2025. Multiple entry periods. Visit michlob ultra.com SuperiorAccess Courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and official rules. Message and data rates may apply. Void where prohibited. All right, our friend Zach Lowis here. We're taping this before the four Tuesday games, but also before the two Wednesday games. And it's an awesome doubleheader of Golden State Houston Lakers T Wolves. I covered on my pod on Sunday. You covered on the Zach Lowe show on Monday. But we're here to talk about Draymond Green and then we can talk about those games at the tail end. Last week we did Kawhi. We deep dove. This week we're going to do Draymond and we're going to deep dive. You wrote about him, I think two years ago, maybe right after the pool incident.

[Zach Lowe]

Many, many times. But yes, including. Including taking that moment as a. Hey, wait a second. Let's take stock of this guy's warriors career, which felt a little, a little like it was on shaky ground as the warriors were approaching. You know, the. Do we pay all of these guys? The young guys, the old guys, everybody? Can we do that? And if not, who's the casualty?

[Bill Simmons]

It's felt. One of the things I was thinking about as we go into this, it's felt a couple times over the last three years that we might be at the end of the road with Draymond and the warriors, right? And the pool punch was the first time. The second time was, when are they going to be able to figure out his contract or not? And then even this year, when it didn't really seem like they had any moves and the question became, well, I mean, maybe would Draymond be somebody that they might be trying to flip? He's feels, I don't want to say a thin ice, but it's felt a little rocky. And now I feel the best about it that I felt probably since the 22 finals. But even the 22 finals, he was getting yanked around. I don't think he looked particularly great. He looks great now. And this Curry Draymond thing is now officially over a decade, and there's something really unique and special about it that just continues to persevere. And you could feel it in that Houston game.

[Zach Lowe]

It felt like the punch changed his standing within the Warriors. They've all acknowledged that was very hard for the team to get over. It was very hard for Jordan Poole to get over. Then you follow it up with the suspensions, right? Like last season, we get suspended for I don't know how many games. It was indefinitely after the Gobert incident and then the Nurkic incident. And then there was like the flirtation with Memphis in free agency that I think was at least semi real, you know, or the potential of it anyway. Yeah, I mean, it's. But. But I always wrote. I mean, you know who's sad listening to this is the guy who signed with Dallas in free agency to play with Luka and make some spot up threes. And I always wrote that those three guys were. It was magic. Like, it's why you play basketball, to get that kind of level of feel and chemistry and just you can do it with your eyes closed, you know, where everyone's going to be at all time. That those three guys were meant to play together and should have played together forever. And at least two of them look like they are going to play together forever in their NBA lives.

[Bill Simmons]

It's the hardest thing to find in professional basketball. Now with the way guys move around, with the way now we have this first second apron. You know, I'm always thinking, like, we had the last episode of Celtic City, and it's built around Brown and Tatum and it's just like, I don't even know if it's sustainable to have two guys making a max once it gets into the 60s, 70s anymore. They would. Brown and Tatum have. I don't think remotely approaches the Draymond Curry thing because those guys actually had figured out how to elevate each other, which I think is the last level when you're talking teammates. Clay was in there too, but really, Draymond. You could feel when Draymond wasn't in the game, what it meant to Curry, all the little pick and pops and handoffs and just that ESP that they had for each other. I can't think of, like, this. The. The. When I was growing up, they always talked about how the 70s Knicks had that right. I think Bird and McHale kind of got there. I think Jordan and Pippen almost, like, defensively, as athletes became so attuned, like, they almost seemed like a pair after a while, it's really hard to get to. And with Draymond, I feel. I've always felt like there was gonna be a shelf life and it was gonna flame out, and he was just being more and more erratic as his career went on. He had the podcast. He's becoming unlikable in a lot of ways, too. And then you watch, like, last night, it's like.

[Zach Lowe]

I was gonna say he almost got. He's almost dejected from, like, every third game.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, you're. Wait, you're just teetering on this balance beam with him, and, you know, he gets that first technical, and then you instantly get the flashbacks to 2016, game four, when I. I'll always think LeBron knew what he was doing. I think it was a smart play. He tried to bait Draymond into retaliating, knowing that one more anything, and Draymond was suspended for the next game.

[Zach Lowe]

And by the way, if you're right, and there's never gonna. Maybe one day they'll. LeBron will talk about this and. And try to make himself the protagonist of that one step ahead. Thing is, Draymond has also tried to make himself the protagonist of, like, almost everything good that's happened for the warriors, including you mentioned the 2022 finals. The turning point for him was getting in Jalen Brown's head. That was like being physical with Jaylen Brown getting in his head. They. Oh, my God, I knew we had him at that moment. I mean, he said that. But if. If. If you turn out to be right about this LeBron thing, what a tribute to Draymond Green's greatness. Actually, that LeBron thought it was worth. It was worth getting him out of the series for a game. Right. That he, that he respected him that much. But you mentioned all these prior teammate combinations. And what's super interesting about this one is that we've seen like Tatum and Brownie, you went Tatum and Brown in backwards to some of the historical ones we've seen. The game has been ruled by big men like you mentioned, Mikhail, low post guys, Shaq and Kobe, we can go on and on. And big wings. These guys are neither of those things. And they're both totally unusual superstars or stars, whatever you want to call Draymond in NBA history. And almost archetypal players that are specifically archetypal to this era of three point shooting, which Steph revolutionized and accelerated a development that was going to happen anyway. And Draymond as the ultimate switch defender when more defenses were like, we just got to try and switch everything because this shooting is so massively important and swing so many games. And Draymond may not have a good sort of analog in the history of the NBA. Steph obviously has no analog in the history of the NBA. And. And Steph. Steph is. Is one of one. Draymond became this weird archetype where for about four or five years people searched the draft for we got to find someone like Draymond. Can we find our Draymond? Could Grant Williams be our kind of Draymond?

[Bill Simmons]

Williams is the funniest one.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah. And it was. It's just so interesting that you go through those pairs of superstars and these two guys are just strange in terms of body type, skill set. And not not only just strange, but strange and meant to play in this era. And meant to play together in this era.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Like I remember he started playing when we were working together at Grantland and it was the early days of the five man lineups and the plus minus stuff, really early. Like primitive. Like you're. People are carving it out in stone. The numbers, trying to figure it out.

[Zach Lowe]

Websites that are dead, that are gone.

[Bill Simmons]

You get like a virus if you download any of the websites. But there was some stuff with David Lee and it was one of the first times because I remember that there was that grizzly season and I was on TV that year with Memphis where the Rudy gay lineups versus the non Rudy gay lineups to dark.

[Zach Lowe]

To dark time. The Rudy gay.

[Bill Simmons]

Remember that?

[Zach Lowe]

The Rudy gay discourse dark.

[Bill Simmons]

Remember they trade him. And everyone went nuts. And the people who were actually like kind of studying this shit were like eh. They Might not miss him. And then he. They make the Western Finals. But there was a similar thing going on with David Lee, who had good stats, good counting stats, hustled. Was the type of guy that, in the old school way, you'd be like. Like that guy, Good jump hook, like, he does some good stuff, and he was a, you know, a good starter, but Draymond was in there and would. And. And the lineups took off.

[Zach Lowe]

Always the foil in this story. David Lee, a very good NBA player who could do a lot of good NBA things, including, you know, remember that Finals when they started to go small against the Cavaliers, and it was like a garbage time of the. Of a game they were losing, and David Lee was, like, heavily involved. Yeah. Draymond, you know, was picked 35th in the draft. Warriors picked him after they picked Festus Azili in the same draft. So it's kind of like the old. You know, when I was. When I used to wax poetic to the spurs about, you know, manu Ginobili is the greatest draft pick in the history of the NBA. You guys were such geniuses, picking him at 50, whatever. And they would always tell me, well, if we were such geniuses, why did we pick Gordon Girosek, like, 25 spots higher in the same draft?

[Bill Simmons]

That's the Tom Brady they passed on him every round until the sixth round, same thing.

[Zach Lowe]

And it's. It's the same with Azili and Draymond, but maybe Draymond is the only one that expected anything even 50%, as great as the career and impact he ended up having on a team that ended up being the absolute perfect place for him.

[Bill Simmons]

Why? He always had the confidence. Right. So he won in high school and he won in college, and then he came to the pros. He wasn't playing that much. And I remember. I was on. I was on Countdown. I. It might have been the 2013 season. We were talking about the warriors in the playoff 2013 or 14. And we were talking about how nobody could shoot on the warriors other than Staff and Clay or. I forget what it was. And I made some joke about you don't want Draymond throwing up bricks or something like that. And he came at me on Twitter, and I was like, look at this guy who. I kind of like the feistiness. It was like, all right, that's cool. But he always kind of carried himself like, you guys don't realize how good I am yet. And then 2015, once Lee gets hurt, and the rest is history. But that's. I always think about Luck with this stuff where you think, you know, it just became a story again recently about Bogut. Talking about the thing that I thought everybody knew that Milwaukee had the choice between Ellis and Curry in that trade and Curry's ankles were. So. Yeah. Are you. You. You're dubious of that one, or are you.

[Zach Lowe]

No, I mean, it's been. It's been whispered about for so long, I. Can we ever really confirm it? I mean, like, who. Has anyone in the room in a public setting come out and confirmed it?

[Bill Simmons]

Always gave them the choice. I don't think whoever admitted was lake up even there at that point. He was right. Whoever the owners were. Yeah, because I think there was this real feeling that Curry's ankles were always going to be an issue, you know, that this was never going to be a thing that healed. So you get luck with that. You keep Curry. You get.

[Zach Lowe]

Not only that. How about. How about you get the discount on his first contract? 4 years, 44 million or something like that. That allows you to do all this other stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

That's luck number two. Luck number three is the Kevin Love trade, which is one of the most polarizing organizational. Should we do this or not? Sagas probably ever, to the point that they're asking people like us, what do you think? Would you do this? Would you put. And that. Wouldn't that have been ultimately. Would that been David Lee with Clay and maybe even Draymond in that trade, too?

[Zach Lowe]

I. I don't. I don't remember exactly what it was, except that Clay was in it. I think I. I remember iterations being discussed with Clay and Harrison Barnes both in it. Um, I don't remember exactly what it would have been other than it was a clear. Like, Clay was in the trade. It was like splash or no splash brothers.

[Bill Simmons]

And I think Kerr was one of those who was like, I think the shooting.

[Zach Lowe]

Jerry West. Jerry west was ready to throw himself in front of the train tracks on that. It's like, we're not doing this. This is a bad.

[Bill Simmons]

I think, Winning Time tantrum. Like, the guy in Winning Time, do you throw a chair through the glass window?

[Zach Lowe]

He always. He hated his portrayal in Winning Time. And rip to the logo. One of the best. One of the best.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, now we have the half court logo. Ben Simmons, he gets to the half court logo and he stops dribbling. But then the other. The other luck thing was. Was the. The cap spike in 16. And all of these things come together and really, the only unlucky break, I mean, until 2019, the only unlucky Break. Was that Draymond, you know, punching LeBron in the balls? Have you watched that clip recently?

[Zach Lowe]

I have. I have not.

[Bill Simmons]

It is the most doobie. I forgot how awful it was. I. It might be number one for me, for the league. Stepping in and trying to push a narrative. It is awful. It's. Comes up, he kind of swing because LeBron's standing over him. Like, they get caught up and he's just standing over him like a little, almost baiting him. And Draymond gets up and he kind of waves his hand. And I just still can't believe that happened. Because if you remember from. What's the score in that Bucks game.

[Zach Lowe]

No, no, I'm actually. I want to. I'm. I'm trying to remember in my head the sequence of events from that series. So I'm looking up the game logs. I'm going to talk about.

[Bill Simmons]

So I want to talk about that game really quick. Is game four, when Draymond gets kicked out of or gets the flagrant at the end or whatever it was. They go into Cleveland. They're up 2:1 in the series. It's probably one of my favorite five warriors games from that whole Curry era because they lay the smackdown like Cleveland. They're toe to toe.

[Zach Lowe]

They pulled away down the stretch.

[Bill Simmons]

Pulled away down the stretch. And we. And we're leaving that game going. They definitely have the best team. This is going to be the greatest season in the history of the NBA. And then the suspension happens. And it's.

[Zach Lowe]

So I was at the game and I have this memory of doing something after the game with Jay Adande, maybe. I don't know why that would make sense. And when you're at these games, sometimes you're not looking at the video feed in detail. And none of us realized at the time exactly what had happened and put together what was possible. And this is why I was looking back at it. So that was June 10, 10897 warriors win. There were two days off until the next game in the Bay, June 13. And I remember they took a while to rule on it because I went out to dinner on June, what would be June 11, I guess, with a couple of warriors people. And they were like. I mean, the tent, the level of tension. It was not that fun of a.

[Bill Simmons]

Dinner because Bogut was already out and Curry was. Curry had the. What was. His ankle injuries. So they were kind of limping to the finish line as it was.

[Zach Lowe]

But it was not a fun dinner because they didn't know still what was going to happen. With Draymond, they were fuming about what they viewed as lobbying by the Cavaliers for a suspension. They were fuming because they thought the league was going to quote. I mean, every team see everything through the lens of their own bias and what is good or bad for them. And they. They viewed it like the league's going to scapegoat Draymond. We could see this coming. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It was not a fun dinner. And then it was another full day until they announced the suspension. Then he goes and watches it from the A's. Didn't he go to the A's game or. So he was in a luxury box somewhere with Bob Myers.

[Bill Simmons]

I remember that was indefensible. The. The suspension.

[Zach Lowe]

So you think the suspension was there, but it was a flagrant points thing. It was.

[Bill Simmons]

He had accumulated all the points decide of finals like that. And it was bogus. I feel like it was bogus. The Robert Horace shove when he shoved Kerr into the scores table and a couple of Curry Nash into the scores table, and a couple of Nash's teammates responded because you're going to. You're going to move toward your guy who just got decked in the scores table. I thought that and I thought the Miami New York thing in the late 90s was those were the three that really stand out to me.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm reading it now. This is Kiki Vandeway. Kiki Vandeway involved. I remember that. I remember they were waiting to hear from Kiki.

[Bill Simmons]

He's back.

[Zach Lowe]

The cumulative point system is designed to deter flagrant fouls in our game. Kiki Vandui said, while Draymond Green's actions in game four do not merit a suspension as a standalone act, the number of flagrant points he has earned triggers a suspension for game five. And I remember he had a couple of really dumb ones in the. Early in that series. There was one. He, like, throws Michael. I think Michael Beasley is involved. He plays for the Rockets at that time, and he throws them to the ground and like almost garbage time of like a decided game. You're like, what are you. What are you doing, man? And there was. That's the Stephen Adams. Well, he hits Draymond Adams.

[Bill Simmons]

And it was two different times.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah. When he got quite well. Yeah, they're still going at it right now. Stephen Adams and Draymond Green.

[Bill Simmons]

The other thing is he comes back. Cavs blow them away in Game 5, Game 6, but Draymond comes back from Game 7 and plays the best game of his career. And I think he single handedly keeps him in the game because Curry is running on fumes of his fumes of his fumes. At that point that game got super tense. The last five minutes is an all time rock fight after LeBron hits the two threes over Azili because the words are a guy short and that Draymond game's wasted and he's. I don't want to say he's the reason they didn't win the title that year, but that incident, I think they went in five. I just think they go back to, to Golden State and finish. It felt.

[Zach Lowe]

It felt like a. We've seen this series a hundred times, a million times before. Road T road favorite wins game four. Kind of a tough, gutsy win on the road, goes up three more, finishes the job at home. Like we've all seen this, but we, we're taping this on Tuesday at 6:45. There's like three series resuming tonight that feel exactly like that in the current.

[Bill Simmons]

So you wrote, when you wrote about Draymond, you used a word that I thought was a great word and I wanted to put it in the context of history. So I always talk about glue guys, right? He's better than a glue guy.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh no question.

[Bill Simmons]

He's not obviously not like a star role player. That seems too low too. But in the piece you wrote that you used the noun amplifier, how he amplified Steph in all these different ways. And I was thinking like that's the right word, amplifier. So I was going through like my favorite amplifiers because I think that feels like it's more status, right? It's that you're not a role player, you're not a glue guy. You're like, I am actually better than a role guy. And not only that, but if you put me next to an awesome guy, I'm going to make that guy better. So Rodman I think is an all time amplifier. I think Ben Wallace got there in the. In the mid 2000s. 03 to 07. Hori is a classic example. Seven titles, but you could kind of fit him in. He didn't need the ball. He could guard whoever. He could guard different positions. You could always count on him. Come through when it mattered. Michael Cooper, Bobby Jones, Paul Silas. K.C. jones was the famous one from the Russell Celtics. And then there's some. There's two old. I put older in front of these guys names older. Andre Iguodala. Okay. So we're like around 15 range, double.

[Zach Lowe]

Double amplification for the Warriors.

[Bill Simmons]

He could have been the best guy on a 45 win team in his prime, but older version. And then I think older. Jrue Holiday too, kind of the Bucks Celtics era. And then the only other two I have and I. They're maybes for me are Derek Fisher and Bruce Bowen.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, Jerry mind's on another level from.

[Bill Simmons]

That's how I feel too. I wanted to. I wanted to mark them down, but I think of all those guys, I think Draymond might have been the best amplifier. I think he might be the number one amplifier.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, let's. Let's. Let's keep. Let's be simple about it. You know, people do this thing with Draymond where like, well, what would he be if the. If he got drafted by the Pistons and he doesn't have Steph? And how many even ex players have sort of derided Draymond like this? He has Stephan Clay and all he has to do is throw handoffs to them while big whoop, Draymond Green.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but.

[Zach Lowe]

He'S not the same player without Steph Curry. Almost nobody would be. If you're ranking the reasons why the warriors have four championships in the last whatever years, it's Steph Curry up here at number one and then a giant gap between whatever you think number one and number two, what number two is. And that's fine and fair. Draymond has two things that I think are indisputable, but I think he's a Hall of Famer. He's. I think he should be a Hall of Famer.

[Bill Simmons]

No question. Michael Cooper made the hall of Fame. I mean, come on.

[Zach Lowe]

Even. Even whatever. He's the greatest defender of his generation, which I would define as sort of like the post KG Duncan generation of players. He might be the most versatile defender in modern NBA history. He is like, there's this alternate reality where, okay, so imagine the warriors without Draymond Green, but they have Steph Curry and Klay Thompson and Harrison Barnes and whatever else. They're still awesome. They still might be a championship team. You could replace Draymond with. I use Clint Capella as my stand in screen and dive, spread, pick and roll, center, blah, blah, blah. But Draymond, Draymond's ability to play center on defense and switch across every position is completely unique, almost completely unique in modern NBA history. And he's also, while at center, one of the greatest passers on the move in the history of the NBA. And both of those things allow the warriors to play a style that is completely unusual and unique to them. And he's a big part of that and he lifts up. Curry is better because of all the stuff Draymond can do. When you give him four on threes, when you play a handoff back and forth with him, when you are. When you can take certain risks defensively because you can play this super small ball lineup because he's a six, six guy, you can play center, the defense and the passing. This is a guy. He's led the team in assists, like, many times. It's not. That's what separates him from, like, your glue guy. Role players, like those dudes aren't dishing 7, 8, 9, 10 assists approaching. You can triple singles. He gets made fun of a lot for that, but those are almost triple doubles. He's a totally unusual player and made the warriors both unusual and better.

[Bill Simmons]

Those four on threes you mentioned, he's gotta be in the running for the best one in that situation. Can you. We see it all the time now, right? Like, even the Nuggets Clipper series, the Nuggets are trying to put Zubots in that situation.

[Zach Lowe]

He's been doing really well.

[Bill Simmons]

He's been really good at it. You know, they'll try to put him. Horford is somebody that gets in that situation. But through the league, when teams are trying to take out somebody, oh, let's do four and three, and the guy at the foul line will make the bad decision. The thing with Draymond is the warriors just know how to cut. It's like, it was amazing to watch Butler immediately fit into that, right? It took him like 10 seconds to be like, oh, if they're going to do that, I'm just going to cut. I'll get layups.

[Zach Lowe]

Orford is a great name because he's still good at it now. And in his prime, when he was more athletic and faster, he was really, really close in sort of speed and decision making to what prime Draymond is or was. But he wasn't as Draymond is. I mean, in the stupidest sense, is just so fast. He moves really fast compared to the average big guy who's going to set his screen and roll to the rim. And then he makes his decisions faster and more intelligently than almost everybody else in the league in that situation. It's a really hard. It's not a hard combination to find. It's like a borderline impossible combination to find because there has been no next to Draymond Green. And, you know, you can do the counterfactuals of, like, well, does he even get those four on threes? If he's playing with whatever anonymous Eastern Conference guards in Charlotte or Detroit or whatever. And the answer is he doesn't get them in the same way with the same amount of space in the same frequency.

[Bill Simmons]

He just would have changed how he played, I think.

[Zach Lowe]

Don't you think? But I do, I do think he would have been a very good player, a great player anywhere because the defense and the passing are translatable skills to any setting.

[Bill Simmons]

It was hard to recognize in the moment for a little while because we were so used to these 6 foot 6 undersized guys getting drafted, going 15 picks too late. There was that whole Brandon bash generation of NBA player in the 2000s where it was like they couldn't shoot threes, they were bangers, they were second round picks or low value guys. They were all missing something, right? They were either 3 inches too short or they couldn't really rebound or they, you know, David west was probably the best version of all of them. And Draymond just seemed like, oh, he's going to be in that bucket. And then to watch the player that he became. And then we didn't mention like the competitiveness and the. I don't think anybody has ever been more of an alpha who probably has a worse basketball reference page, right? If. If, like we can't look this up on stat head on basketball reference. But it's like, who. Who has the lowest points per game, who carries himself like an alpha? He might be in the running.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, look, he's 35 years old. It's 20, 25. And in the first round of the playoffs, he stood up the Houston Rockets best player who has a massive height and weight advantage on him in the most important possession of maybe the entire series. Stood him up, played impeccable defense, forced a miss. Let everyone know about it and let everyone know like, hey, I'm 35, I'm old now. Don't come at me like that. Go somewhere else on your crunch time possessions. Eme Odoka and it was like, he's been sensational.

[Bill Simmons]

It would have been funny if he made. Doka was like, have you seen the other guys at my team? Where else was I gonna go? Was it gonna be the Fred Van Vuitt step back? Like, what. What were my other options? Did you watch Jalen Green tonight?

[Zach Lowe]

Fred was rolling and Jalen Green was on the bench. So I was watching him on. I was actually watching Jalen Green on the bench because I was doing the body language doctor thing of like, is he engaged?

[Bill Simmons]

He was engaged. He was engaged. IME with 4 seconds left and no timeouts. Leaving Adams and Sengun out there for the scramble three situation was incredible. I don't know if he just passed out, I would have dusted off Reed shepherd and just been like, can you just do a Peyton Pritchard impersonation? I know you haven't played all series.

[Zach Lowe]

I gotta say, I don't want to plant bad seeds in your head or make this about the Celtics. Peyton Pritchard's on a little cold streak on half court to.

[Bill Simmons]

He's like, oh, for his last 60.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, yeah, the 30 to 60 footers aren't falling anymore. Like they were less, less playoffs when.

[Bill Simmons]

It became like, the other team knows it's coming. Going back to the amplifier thing and what you said about how unique Draymond is. If you take all the other best amplifiers, I don't think any of them work as well as he works with the warriors because of the passing and the 4 and 3 stuff. Like if you just put Ben Wallace on the warriors, let's take that five year Ben Wallace run and make it 10 years and they would have been better. You know, from a rebounding standpoint, defense, I don't. I'm not sure he would have been able to guard, you know, as many types of guys that Draymond guard, but he was an incredible defensive player there. And you don't really get anything else and you get terrible foul shooting. And you, you know, you start listing like, oh, well, you also get this. And like, that doesn't work. I can't even think of anybody else I would put in, can you? It's almost like Cartenstein, but a more playmaky version of him. But for 10 years, the passing is.

[Zach Lowe]

Is what makes it sing on offense. And just like, you know, you go back and watch prime Draymond Green defend James Harden as like sometimes the primary assignment, often on switch, you're like, oh, is he the best guy on the warriors at defending this guy? And also the best guy on the warriors years later at defending Jokic. Like, that's, that's a, that's a unicorn defense.

[Bill Simmons]

Like the 17 warriors, which I think have a real case, especially as the years pass for best team. I don't know if I'd vote for them, but I think they have a case. And one of the cases is when you're putting out Draymond and Iguodala and Clay, who was a really, really good defender in the mid 2000s. You have those three guys out there at the same time with Curry and then Durant as the 6 foot 11 Spider man can protect the rim and do all these different things. That was, that might be the best five man lineup I've seen in person. Even the Bulls always had somebody who was a little bit iffy on the movie poster, you know.

[Zach Lowe]

Yes. Steph Clay, Iguodala, Draymond Durant.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know if we're doing better than that.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, I, I mean, I remember being at a, in Denver at a Nuggets warriors game pretty early that season. Might have been the season. I don't know. It was some, it was sometime in that 17 or, and, or 17, 18. And they did the thing where they were all on the floor together in the third quarter of the game and it was just. You didn't even understand what was. It was just like a tidal wave and you, it was like you lost consciousness watching the game and it just became this blur of noise and sound and like blue jerseys flying around. And all of a sudden it was. They had put up like a 22 to two run in two and a half minutes. I mean, I'm exaggerating a little bit, but you just, it felt like watching this cyclone and good teams, the Nuggets were a good team. Were just looking around like, I don't even understand what's happening to us. Like, what are we supposed to do? Where's the ball? That guy is. Oh, that guy. It was like unbelievable. Well, they broke too much talent, which everybody knew when they got him. It was like, okay, well this is a wrap for a couple of years.

[Bill Simmons]

They broke the 2017 Cavs and now as the years pass, it seems like the Cavs were like the underdog in the relationship. Meanwhile, they won the lottery three out of four years. They had Kyrie Irving, they traded a number one pick for Kevin Love. They had all these expensive role players like Tristan Thompson. I think they had, what, one of the five biggest payrolls in the league and they had LeBron James still in his prime. Like, that was not, that was not Hickory High trying to, trying to make it through the tournament in Indiana in 1954.

[Zach Lowe]

The 2017 Cavs are the best Cavs team of LeBron's. Two times in Cleveland, the team that lost in the finals that year, in my opinion, that was the best.

[Bill Simmons]

What's the best LeBron team to you? Tangent.

[Zach Lowe]

I think 13.

[Bill Simmons]

We're still talking about Draymond, but I.

[Zach Lowe]

Think 13 Heat are going to be tough to beat. Whatever that was. The Heat team that had the 20 something game winning streak and they ran into some Issues in the playoffs that I thought were a little bit frankly beneath them. I thought they should end an easier time in the east playoffs. And then they beat the Spur.

[Bill Simmons]

I think.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean, 17 Cavs didn't win. 16 Cavs will always be another measuring stick team. I haven't. I'm going blind. I haven't looked back at the numbers of what that 6. Some of those teams, this Cleveland 2.0 teams, as you know, as an Eastern Conference basketball fan, kind of just cruise through parts of the regular season.

[Bill Simmons]

Conference was terrible. Yeah, I think the. The first, maybe two thirds of that 2013 Miami season is the answer. But when they got to the playoffs, it wasn't just like that. It got a little rocky with them. I thought Wade, that was when he really started to break down a little bit and he just didn't feel like Dwayne Wade.

[Zach Lowe]

Indiana went to seven that year and it was like, I just don't feel like this Pacers team should be taking these guys to seven.

[Bill Simmons]

I do think the streak, which was just great. I think the streak had a little do that. I think it took a lot out of those guys, but I would say 2013. I also think. Hard to say with COVID what happens in that 20 season, but if you look back at the guys on that team, it's pretty good team. You know, we have. You have Davis, who's in his late 20s. You got Caruso in there. You have Caldwell Pope, you have Kuzma before he kind of went off the rails. And by the way, Dwight Howard protecting the rim. That team was talented.

[Zach Lowe]

Relevant to this discussion. Where are the warriors at that time?

[Bill Simmons]

The 21. Well, that was the year that was the Durant Clay combo injury. Durant leaves and Clay, which is why.

[Zach Lowe]

You know, and they get. They get three shots in the lottery during their sort of down period. You know, Kaminga, Wiseman, Moody. The payoff has not been substantial. As substantial as they.

[Bill Simmons]

I'll buy your Moody stock right now.

[Zach Lowe]

No, no, I like. I like Moody a lot. I've been on it seem like you.

[Bill Simmons]

Want to put it for sale.

[Zach Lowe]

No, no, no. I'm just. They. I. I think obviously the Wiseman is a huge bus.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, but that was also Covid draft. I like. I gotta defend them a tiny bit on that. That draft. You go back in that draft, that draft is bonkers. I don't.

[Kurt Goldsberry]

I don't care.

[Bill Simmons]

Less defensible.

[Zach Lowe]

I don't even care. And Kaminga, they got in a masterstroke trademark selling as high as possible on.

[Bill Simmons]

DMV that should have been Franz. How do they not know to take the the IQ 6 foot 9.

[Zach Lowe]

My point is this. That's why you know it when you see it. Certain NBA championships just mean more than other NBA championships. Sometimes it's because of a star player finally winning one in his home city, like Dirk in 2011. Sometimes it's everything magical comes together for some unexpected team, some sign. Sometimes it's a team sort of stamping itself like a prior champion, sort of proving like that. Yeah, the first one was legit. The 2022 warriors championship is one of those more special than a lot of other championship championships. Because a lot of time had passed since the last Durant one, it didn't feel all that likely that they would get back to the mountaintop. If you look back, like, it's a strange roster of dudes, many of whom are not there anymore. Clay, Pool, Wiggins.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, so Clay and Draymond at weird points of their career where we weren't even sure if they were elite guys anymore or not.

[Zach Lowe]

And. And they are taking advantage of this, like, interregnum in the west where, like, the Nuggets are in a waiting period for their guys like Murray and Porter to get back healthy. The Clippers are never healthy, and now they are healthy. But they were like, that was a legit, awesome warriors team that leaned back into the style of basketball that Steve Kerr wants to play. The beautiful game, the ball movement, and had enough to squeeze out four series against teams that just kind of weren't ready for all of it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And. And the game four. I'm with you. Like, that one meant so much to the kind of Steph career resume, all that stuff. But also it seemed like they were never going to be in that situation again. You didn't even mention the Suns. That was another one for the Suns coming off the Finals. They were, what were they, like 50 and 6 at one point? Just seeming like they're heading back and then just falling apart against Dallas.

[Zach Lowe]

Game said game seven. No, but now we're really off track. But game seven, Dallas, Phoenix and game seven, Boston, Milwaukee were the same day that year.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, my God, you're right.

[Zach Lowe]

And I was traveling to Chicago for the combine and my flight was like, so poorly timed. Like, it took off in the middle of the third quarter of Celtics Bucks, and then it was going to land and Suns Mavs would already be, you know, first quarter, second quarter, I was like, I'm going to miss, like, so much. And I land and it's like, Celtics.

[Bill Simmons]

Win by a lot.

[Zach Lowe]

Grant Williams makes a million threes. And then I get to my hotel and I load up the Sun's Mavs game. I'm like, what?

[Bill Simmons]

And it's over.

[Zach Lowe]

I don't even have to watch this.

[Bill Simmons]

This is crazy.

[Zach Lowe]

What the hell is going on? And the warriors win the title. And Draymond is really good. End of story.

[Bill Simmons]

Let's take a quick break. This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. As the weather gets warmer, it's time for lighter meals, right? You know that Whole Foods Market has just what you're looking for. Great everyday prices. The yellow low price signs help you save money every day without compromising the quality you expect at Whole Foods Market. Like low priced, responsibly farmed Atlantic salmon or no antibiotics ever. Ground beef or boneless skinless chicken breast. Plus much more throughout the store. Wherever you see Yellow at Whole Foods Market, you know you're saving money. Save on the best of spring with great everyday prices at Whole Foods Market. This episode is brought to you by Altra Running. Every pair of Altra shoes has a roomy toe box and zero to low drop which lets your toes spread and keeps your foot in a more natural position. All in the name of comfort and performance with a variety of styles. There's a shoe for everyone. It's comfort you have to feel to believe. Try Altra for yourself with a free 30 day trial and free [e-mail] all right, a couple more Draymond things and I want to talk quickly about Golden State Houston, the generational defensive belt, which I'm not going to subject you to all the names since Bill Russell. I did make a list.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

But I think Draymond versus Rudy, basically for the post Kawhi era, which is about the moment he steps on Zaza's foot all the way through, is the argument for the last eight years. I would say Draymond, there's some nerds out there that would. That would be resolute about Gobert and the Gobert rim protection stats. Gobert has more defensive player of the years. I think he's had more season this season, probably success. But that's the argument for the last eight years, Dre. If you're going to pick one guy who has the belt, it's those two.

[Zach Lowe]

I think he's going to be the Shaq. The shaq is the MVPs. What Draymond is to defensive player of the year or like on a larger scale even Jordan to MVPs. Like we're all going to look back at the career be like, he only won one and these other guys won more than that. Like, he's a. It's sometimes it's like it's a regular season award. He misses time. He gets whatever. Like he gets injured. The team is so good, it doesn't even matter. Gobert is playing 82 games, but we all know it goes back to something Draymond himself said. 62, 82 game player or 16 game player? He's a better 16 game player on defense alone.

[Bill Simmons]

You're just taking him in any postseason. You're always taking dribbles.

[Zach Lowe]

He's a better 16 game defender. Dana Rudugobera, 16 game, four series, four different kinds of opponents. He's better. And unfortunately for him, the belt is now going to be in San Antonio for a very long time.

[Bill Simmons]

So Steve Kerr said Draymond was the single best defensive player he's ever seen after game four. And he's been touting Draymond's defense a lot. He actually lobbied for him for defensive player of the year, which he doesn't. He's not a big award lobbyer. That's Steve Kerr, but he played with Scotty Pippen, and he played with Dennis Rodman and Tim Duncan. And I was just surprised. And Tim Duncan. But I mean, Pippin, that's a tough one. I would love to put like three drinks into Steve Kerr 10 years from now, and he's not coaching Draymond anymore. And actually get the actual answer for is Draymond actually the best defensive player? Look, it's all.

[Zach Lowe]

It's all a matter of. I mean, the defense is still statistically sort of harder to parse than offense, right? So sometimes when you're at this level, it becomes a matter of taste. Like Garnett should be in the conversation. Olajuwon, you know, whoever. We can go through all the greatest defenders in NBA history. He's in the conversation. That's where Draymond Green is. Whether you think he's the best, the fifth best, the fourth best, the third best, whatever. He. That's where he lives. In this conversation.

[Bill Simmons]

Are you taunted me to do my belt lineage? Feels like you are through it quick. It was Draymond versus Rudy. So we're both going to say Draymond Kawhi by himself. By the way, I thought of you when I was at that Clipper game Saturday, and Kawhi just took the ball.

[Zach Lowe]

From Jamal, decided, hey, it's at half court. How about I just go take it?

[Bill Simmons]

I'm gonna go Take the ball now.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Jamal's like, wait, you can't take the ball. I said, no, I'm gonna actually take it.

[Zach Lowe]

Thanks for. Thanks for participating in my exercise.

[Bill Simmons]

My ex.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm just going to take every time.

[Bill Simmons]

I think of you. I think Dwight Howard's in there for a while. By default.

[Zach Lowe]

I'd have to look back at who's contemporary with who, who's old, who's young, but he's got certainly was there many time. Defense player of the year.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh 8kg I think has the belt by himself before him, Ben Wallace. And then it's a three headed battle for a while between Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett and Rasheed Wallace, who I think has been lost in history now. But Rasheed Wallace was just an awesome defensive player when they decided to put him next to Ben Wallace. That and people still seem to think that Laker series was like, whoa, that was weird. It's like Detroit killed them in that series anyway. Would have them. Then there's like a GP versus Mutombo mid to late 90s kind of argument, which I'd probably. I don't even know where I land. I'd probably default toward GP for a little bit.

[Zach Lowe]

Playoff history in that one too.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Sonic snuggage.

[Bill Simmons]

There's a Hakeem Robinson before that. Then we have.

[Zach Lowe]

I won't entertain Hakeem Robinson. I won't entertain it.

[Bill Simmons]

I would pick Hakeem. Right?

[Zach Lowe]

It's Hakeem. I'm not entertaining.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm just saying that Robinson won defensive player of the year a couple times. But Hakeem is.

[Zach Lowe]

Admiral was incredible. He's a dream teamer. What happened in the playoffs in 1995, the rest of it is irrelevant.

[Bill Simmons]

Hakeem also the block steel stuff, that was one in my book. I made up the word stocks because it was like there was just nothing like this guy putting up basically like seven blocks and steals a game. Pippen versus Rodman was another one. And then it starts getting harder after that. But I did want to shout out Bobby Jones. I have another Draymond thing for you really quick. So from 2015 through 2025, he did not average 10 points a game, 9.6 points a game, 7.5 rebounds and 6.6 assists.

[Zach Lowe]

Those are cumulative for those seasons.

[Bill Simmons]

Those are his per game averages for like 11 years. 46% field goal, 32% from three in the playoffs. That bumps up to basically 12, nine and six. But I was like, wow, that's weird. I wonder if anyone has anything remotely that looks like that. So I Rigged Basketball Reference.com who averaged nine points or less.

[Zach Lowe]

You didn't go stat Muse. You didn't go stat Muse?

[Bill Simmons]

No stat Muse. I don't try Roselle, and I hate stat news.

[Zach Lowe]

We don't Alex Ovechkin.

[Bill Simmons]

Under nine points, over five assists, and then rebounds. Whatever. Okay. Everyone else is a guard. It's like Jose Calderon, Avery Johnson, Mugsy Bugs, Dick McGuire, Nate McMillan, Eric Snow, Brevin Knight, TJ McConnell, Rory Sparrow. This is like guys who played 600 games or more, and Draymond has way more rebounds than any of them, obviously. But there's like, you can't even. Basketball Reference is like, I don't know what to make of this. Like, who are I? I don't know. You got me.

[Zach Lowe]

And not included in any of that search data is. Can defend every position on the floor, including seven foot centers, which Avery Johnson or Jose Calderon.

[Bill Simmons]

I wonder if they should add, like, almost like in chess, where you have an. What's an ELO score for chess? I almost wonder if Basketball Reference should just. Just randomly assign ELO scores defensively for every player. Like, Draymond would be like, what, like a 97?

[Zach Lowe]

Whatever the highest is.

[Bill Simmons]

You give him a hundred.

[Zach Lowe]

I don't know. Is that where elo. I don't play.

[Bill Simmons]

I feel like Bill Russell has to be a hundred.

[Zach Lowe]

Can we have multi? We can only have 100.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I think Russell's the only 100. Okay. Yeah. So that's. That's basically all my Draymond stuff, other than I don't know how much longer this goes. There's a weird. They've done a lot about this this year, next year, the contracts are aligned. This is our last dance. I don't know if I necessarily believe that, but what's been cool is watching Butler and Draymond and that play yesterday was like, Draymond, like, they're gonna go to Shengu and I'm gonna stop him. And Jimmy's like. And I'm gonna get the rebound. And then Jimmy comes flying in. He probably has, what, like 10 pounds of Toradell shot in his ass at that point. And it's starting to wear off, and he comes flying in and gets the ultimate Jimmy Butler in traffic. Rebound. Holds the ball, protects it, gets fouled. And he's like, that was my rebound. That was my rebound. Like, the combo of those two guys, they're both insane.

[Zach Lowe]

The rebound. Well, Draymond does what he does. He stands up.

[Bill Simmons]

Sengun forces a 14 footer when it.

[Zach Lowe]

Should have been a nine footer, you know, Exactly. He's done it a billion times. That's what he does. Jimmy Butler is 35 going on 36 injured. And even when not injured is like a below the rim old man kind of player now. And I mean that as a compliment. He's smart, he cuts, he hits people he knows what to. But he's not a high flyer. Never really was, but certainly is it now. That rebound had the feel. I watched it like five times this morning. It had the feel of. It had the feel of like, this is everything I have left in my body at the end of this game is pouring in to jumping as high as I can with as much force as I can because Steven Adams is under there. And I know what Stephen Adams is as an offensive rebounder. It was one of those great athletic sports moments of like digging deep. In all the cliches we talk about, that rebound is like, he's not jumping that high again probably for the entire rest of the playoffs as long as Golden State goes on. That was like, this is everything I got. If this game goes to overtime, I'm going to feel the pain of this jump for the rest of this game. But I got to get this rebound.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, though I thought the Rockets were going to win last night. I was. I wasn't expecting the Jalen Grant, Jalen Green stink bomb, but they did get a crazy Van Bleek game. But it came down to the fear. If you were taking the Rockets in this series. The fear was, what's going to happen late in games when both teams have to execute. How is this going to play out? And it executed. It happened the way it happened. The reason I thought the Rockets were going to win because I didn't think Steph was going to have a big game because they. He put out so much on Saturday night. I was like, well, they're not getting that again and Butler's hurt. How are they going to get to a hundred points? I didn't realize Dylan Brooks was going to talk shit to. To Butler and just activate playoff Jimmy. And now it just. Now it just feels like the Rockets are going sideways and we're just going to wait for the honest trade now.

[Zach Lowe]

Trade machine Summer. This is a Draymond Green segment. Should we talk about that? Draymond Green was like on the verge of getting ejected. I don't say he was on the verge of getting ejected in that game, but the technical, a flagrant and the Tari Eason thing where he rolled over him and tried to goad him into Him. His foot hit his neck. I'm watching that. I'm like, they could throw him out of the game for this. Maybe an accident. It looks like an accident. It can be plausibly explained away as an accident. But the thing about Draymond Green's accidents, and there are a lot of them, is that it never feels as if he's trying to calm the accident or restrain his limbs from moving in ways that will accelerate and worsen the accident. It's always like, my legs are doing this. You're in the way. My legs are going to keep doing this. I'm not going to try to stop my legs. My legs are doing what they're doing. And if your head's in the way, your head's in the way, right?

[Bill Simmons]

And there's been other guys over the years like that, too. Like, remember when Ron Artest just elbow James Harden the head and basically knocked him out? And I don't think it was intentional, but I also think it was the same thing. It was like, hey, my elbow needed to go forward, and that guy's head happened to be in the way, and I had to do it. Some guys. Bowen. It was never an accident. I never felt like it was maybe a partial accident, but he would kick his. What was that? He kicked somebody in the face. Running by a three that time.

[Zach Lowe]

Remember? I can't remember who it was. He did.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, we kicked him right in the face.

[Zach Lowe]

And they're reviewing the play, and I'm like, it doesn't really.

[Bill Simmons]

It.

[Zach Lowe]

It looks mostly like an accident. It also doesn't really look good. He already has a technical. He's always seems to have a technical. And as you well know, Draymond Green with a technical is like a superhero. There's. He's impervious to technical number two for the most. He can do whatever he wants.

[Bill Simmons]

Draymond with five fouls is the other one. Like, he had five fouls yesterday. Felt like for an hour. And he's just doing the vertical, stopping everybody, and never gets the sixth foul. It's pretty crazy.

[Zach Lowe]

He's still a genius to. He had a play earlier in this series. I don't remember who he was guarding, but somebody for the Rockets had the ball at the elbow and went to pass to somebody. Draymond. It was Draymond's guy, had the ball at the elbow, and he went to pass to a cutter. And Draymond, like, did the thing where he read his mind, and it was like, almost as if he was ahead of the pass. He starts drifting away from his own guy. And the pass comes, and it's essentially a pass to Draymond because Draymond has anticipated. Out. Anticipated the guy who's actually initiating the action. And he passes the ball, and Draymond's just there, and it's like, what. Just. What just happened. He just, like, is. It's not even just in sync with the ball. He's ahead of the ball. He still makes those plays, does that.

[Bill Simmons]

And I noticed that every time I'm in person. And Saturday, it was at another level.

[Zach Lowe]

Sam Houser.

[Bill Simmons]

No. Jokic. Oh, he. I just like. To me, the. There's so many litmus tests for how many. How much people are actually watching basketball, and one of them is, if somebody tries to tell me Yokage is like a shitty defensive player, it's like, go fucking watch him in person. Just blow up plays. Just be like, oh, you can do that. I'm going to dive. Right as you're about to do that pass. Now you're jumping in the air because you thought you had that guy, and now you're like, just kind of throwing it over your head. He. He's spooky how he can reach it. He had a pass after the. The game three where they doubled him at the top, the top of the key. Chris Dunn was in the corner on Christian Brown, and he kind of leaked over, and Jokic was facing the other way like this, and Christian Brown is behind him this way. Chris Dunn comes over, he feels Chris Dunn and just whips the pass to Christian Brown. Like, that's his signature pass. If you watch it, you're like, he. How does he. There's 10 seconds where you don't know he's there. How did you know he was there? I have no idea.

[Zach Lowe]

That might be one of his. That is one of his signature passes, and I've watched the dozens of them at this point. And sometimes I go back and I rewind it, and I'm like, let me try to find how he did last time that he made eye contact, that his head was facing the direction of the player he ends up passing to. And sometimes you just can't find it. Like, there's a defensive rebound. He has the ball, he's looking over here, and then the pass comes.

[Bill Simmons]

You're like, I don't.

[Zach Lowe]

I don't really.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, but what's crazy about that play was he didn't know it was Chris Dunn who was coming over to double him. So he had to also know instinctively, Chris Dunn is coming over to double me. Even Though I can't see him. And then when he does that, it's like some fucking Star wars shit. When they put the helmet on Luke Skywalker and they're like, luke, just use the Force. Like he can do that.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, it's fitting that we're talking about Jokic's passing and Draymond's defense in the same breath, because that's about. That's about right.

[Bill Simmons]

I think this has been an awesome basketball round of. Of of games, and we don't even. We didn't even know what's going to happen in these four that are about to happen. Quickly. Golden State, who do you think? You think they'd much rather play the Lakers or kind of would rather play the Lakers, or wouldn't really want to play either, if you had to guess. Assuming they get there, we're definitely at.

[Zach Lowe]

The stage of the Western Conference playoffs where it's just, okay, well, that path sucks. That path sucks. That path really sucks. I would say, given the fact that JJ Redick just played the same five guys for an entire half of basketball and they looked gassed at the end, and one of them is 40, and they don't have the Anthony Davis piece that kind of troubled the Warriors, I would say the Lakers are probably a better matchup. The warriors would probably prefer to play the Lakers a little bit because. Just Minnesota.

[Bill Simmons]

That's why I landed, too, especially from four weeks ago when they went head.

[Zach Lowe]

To head, big, nasty and I mean, but it's no picnic playing Luka. You look at Luka and LeBron like I'm really picking that team. But I think given the respective states of the teams I think I would pick if I were the Warriors, I'd say kind of rather play the Lakers.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And plus there's the Edwards. How real is this? This is last year. So here it is. Anthony Edwards has joined the party. He's now a superstar. And this year, there's now this next step that might be happening. I don't want to jinx it, but.

[Zach Lowe]

I think he's at the party.

[Bill Simmons]

He's at the party for you?

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, he's at the party.

[Bill Simmons]

If you're starting a franchise right now, I want to do first, Tech second, because I think I saw this today. Would you rather have Luka or Anthony Edwards next five years? Because I think I'd rather have Edwards. That's crazy. Five years. Yeah, next five years.

[Zach Lowe]

I think I'd still take Luca.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, because you're getting great choice, by the way.

[Zach Lowe]

Can't lose with Luca.

[Bill Simmons]

You're at least getting the what if he shows up on a mission this year piece like shaq for those three, four years with Shaq in the late 90s. Or it's like, what if he takes this seriously one season. Now we're supposed to pretend that never happened. Okay. And then no chance. Lakers come back. Kind of a chance. Sort of a chance. Or you feel like that was their desperation.

[Zach Lowe]

If you have home court for five and potentially seven, you got a chance. I would be surprised if they came back. I would be surprised if this got to seven. I would be surprised if we got to seven. I just think you gas out your team like that, you've sent a message to the team like, we gotta win this game. You don't win it. Minnesota's hungry. They're young, they're fresh. I would be surprised if it got back to seven.

[Bill Simmons]

You know what they need to do? Hope that Anthony Edwards goes into I got this mode like they're going to probably win game five because they'll get every call. Game six, you hope for some hero ball from Edwards. You hope for The Tom Thibodeau Doc Game 7, 2010 Final strategy of let's try to. Let's try to use Edwards's desire to be the hero against him and maybe just hope he make some bad shots and kind of shoots them out of the game.

[Zach Lowe]

I think he also could just dunk you into pieces and end your season very quickly.

[Bill Simmons]

He is certainly unafraid. Zach Lowe. I was we ran out of time. I was going to ask you to rank your favorite ringer people, but we can do that the next time.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, that's a spicy one. Another. Another time.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, Another time. Podcast for you on Thursday.

[Zach Lowe]

Yes. Good to see you coming off to coming off two good games Wednesday night.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, good to see you, my friend.

[Zach Lowe]

Always fun.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Goldsberry and Zach. Thanks to Eduardo and Gahao for helping behind the scenes. Don't forget about new rewatchables went up on Monday night. Someone watch over me. You can watch that on The Ringer Movies YouTube channel. You can watch all the stuff from this on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel or as a video podcast on Spotify. I'm going to be back on Thursday with more stuff. Some basketball, maybe a little bit. Not basketball. We'll see. I'll see you in a couple days. Must be 21 plus in President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + in President D.C. gambling problem. Call 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplianma.org or call 800-32755 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text hopeny in New York. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. During the season, every baseball team plays 162 games. It's a true test of endurance. It's not enough to have a hot month or two. You need sustained dominance throughout. Well, the same is true for your small business. It's not enough to have a great Q2 or even a great year. You want year over year growth that starts with better hires that'll be there for the long haul. To find Those hires, use LinkedIn. LinkedIn has strong hiring data and insights that you won't find anywhere else to help pair you with the best candidates, from unique skills and interests to the connections you have in common. Based on LinkedIn data, 72% of small businesses say that LinkedIn helps them find high quality talent. LinkedIn also lets you go beyond people who are actively applying in a given week. 171 million LinkedIn members aren't actively seeking jobs, but they are open to new opportunities. That's a big pool to miss out on if you're not hiring with LinkedIn. Find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com Simmons that's LinkedIn.com Simmons to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply.