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The Bill Simmons Podcast
Tatum Suffers a Devastating Injury, and Dallas Wins a Wild NBA Lottery With J. Kyle Mann and Joe House
01:06:46
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- [00:00]
Bill Simmons
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- [03:09]
Joe House
I mean, just, I've had a lot of sports injuries, but I'm not going to pretend to know these kind of things. But the fact that we were arguing about, you know, ankle or not, I mean the fact that he was neutral and there was the plant and then the reverse angle where you see the pressure and then you just kind of see him, his ankle just kind of wobble like the stability gave out, which made me worry. And. But you and I were saying that, you know, the pain part of it was the interesting reaction because to me, I've never torn that. God, you know, God willing, I don't go go there. But he, his reaction to it was what made me think. Because every basketball player fears that, right? I mean it's, yeah, it's increasingly getting more, you know, doable and navigable but with surgery and everything. But I think his reaction was he knew. That's kind of my speculation. It was, he, he knew what it was and it was just that like, holy shit, why me? Kind of a thing, right? Less than a writhing in pain type thing.
- [04:03]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. House usually with the Achilles, the guy almost doesn't seem like they knew it happened and they grab like for something behind their thing. So I was, I was studying it like, well, he's grabbing the side of his ankle. Maybe it's not, but it doesn't look great. And the irony of it was that was one of the best games of his career up to that point. I mean he's single handedly kept the Celtics in that game for three plus quarters and was outrageously good.
- [04:27]
J. Kyle Mann
That's the bummer we were being treated finally in this game four to the mano e mano that we, we basketball fans deserve. We were waiting for a Brunson game and then, you know, Tatum was there to match him blow for blow, shot for shot. And you know that fourth quarter was, was, was getting very exciting down that stretch there and that's it it's over. The season's over for the Celtics and who knows what happens over the summer and next season.
- [04:56]
Bill Simmons
It looked like the Knicks were about to pull away when that play happened. And the irony, normal pass to Jaylen Brown who just, you know, just didn't have it. The whole night he was fouls, turnovers, and for some reason the pass just to flex off him goes back to Tatum. Tatum jump has the injury. But the Knicks, you know, it was really just Tatum and White tonight for the Celtics. Even before that injury, nobody else really showed up. The Porzingis minutes were horrible. The two older guys, Horford and Drew Holiday, brought nothing to the table. Pritchard didn't really give them the boost off the bench. And then conversely, Brunson was awesome. Bridges made some big, big, big little eight, ten footers. OG made a couple threes. Towns had some big minutes even though he was getting torched on defense. Robinson had a couple of rebounds. The Knicks just how they just looked like a better all around team up until the injury.
- [05:49]
Joe House
Yeah, the Porzingis thing was really glaring. I mean in every facet he was slow to the ball on the glass. But I know what I noticed was, you know, on the season it was a lot of Mikhail Bridges. His strengths as things that he's already pretty good at were just being, you know, exacerbated I think amplified in this situation where he's really good at those dribble pull up twos. And this is something that goes back to his Phoenix days that I remember in particular CP3. And he would kill Porzingis with that, that left to right where they would sort of go through the middle of the snake, through the middle of that pick and roll and get to that dribble pull up shot. I mean he was just killing Porzingis with that because Porzingis wasn't moving laterally really well. Horford wasn't either. But yeah, 48.1% on the season. I looked it up. Triple pull up too. So that's his strength and man, he killed him with it.
- [06:35]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I was worried, I was really worried about this game for a bunch of different reasons, but the one day rest for the older guys and the on the Celtics versus like having the home game and then having to do it again on Wednesday night. House, when you're before the injury, you're watching it and I was saying to you, I was worried about this game because the Knicks hadn't played a good game in this series yet. And what were the odds they were just going to go through two weeks and not have a good game. I thought they were pretty good tonight.
- [07:02]
J. Kyle Mann
They were good, but you know, the key, and I'm not here to, you know, rub it in anybody's face. If Porzingis isn't effective, then the Celtics, it makes it super duper hard for them to compete. Just don't have enough dudes. The Hauser injury turns out to be really impactful. And if Porzingis is this version of poor Zingus, then it's tough. Cause the Knicks do have six dudes. They have six. That's exactly the number. They don't have more. Maybe even just called five and a half. But they are dudes. They're all dudes. And look, here's the crazy thing to me, I'm looking at the numbers here. How did the knicks get up 13 more shots? They had 13 more attempts from the field. I know that's right. They beat him by 12 on the boards. That's the answer. It's crazy because the turnovers were pretty even and the, the Celtics were getting to the free throw line. That wasn't an issue. And they both shot, you know, good from 3. 38% for the Celtics, 35% for the Knicks. Those are good, good numbers. But 13 more attempts because the Knicks own the boards. And this is the second consecutive game where that happened. And you know, it just goes, it's very basic. It goes. Comes back to like, you know, your dudes who are dudes, who's going to go get a rebound when you need it.
- [08:16]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. There was one point I looked at. Tatum and White were a combined 13 for 25 from 3. And then the Celtics were still like down by a point. I'm like, that's not a good sign. If you had told me that that was going to be the number with six minutes, seven minutes left in the fourth quarter that those two guys are going to have that and they would still be losing. So Jalen, roller coaster game before Tatum got hurt. I just thought he was so good on both sides. I mean he had, he had five steals, two blocks all over the place, just over and over again. Attacking Towns, attacking Towns, attacking Towns and, and really kept them in it. And the irony what happened late was that it felt like this was going to be, you know, potentially another version of the Jayson Tatum game. He's had a couple of those. Like he had the game in Milwaukee, had the game in Philly, but this was, I thought, the best all around game. I had seen him play couple dump threes here and there. But for the most part, was. Was awesome. Did the Knicks seem like a finals team to you, Kyle?
- [09:15]
Joe House
I mean, based on what's on the board? Yeah.
- [09:17]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, I guess.
- [09:17]
Bill Simmons
I guess it's going to be down.
- [09:19]
Joe House
Yeah, I thought, I just thought as far as brilliantly as Tatum played though, you know, he was living a tough life. I mean, you know, nine isolations on the game and a lot of it was working. If you're. They talked a lot about on the broadcast that, you know, Carl is really vulnerable in drop. He's really vulnerable side to side, but he is decent at kind of staying down and like he's long enough to contest. They were talking about how he bothered Durant. Tatum just kept working hard and he wasn't really getting by him. And a lot of the shots that he was getting to, he was making them, but he was just kind of doing his thing where he, he steps backwards. I don't know. It was. He was. It seemed like he was burning a lot of calories to, to just take tough shots. Sometimes they go in, but that's just kind of the, the Jason Tatum experience. But hey, if they all go in and he finishes that, yeah, I definitely think it's a, it's a notch in, in his, like, legacy, you know, bullet point list.
- [10:11]
Bill Simmons
But yeah, the offense just fell apart in the last quarter and a half of the game where you could just feel it. You can feel when that the ISO ball stuff starts, the balls, they stop running plays, they stop going, oh, let's post up Holiday in this player. Let's run a little pick and pop with Derek Way, and it just becomes all one on one stuff clear out. You know, the 14 kind of offense, which. I don't know, House, I.
- [10:36]
J. Kyle Mann
Well, that offense fed into a run by the Knicks. The Knicks scored 70 points in the second half. They had 37 points in the third quarter.
- [10:44]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, so Brunson made some great, great, great shots. And the Celtics fell asleep too, a couple times. Like, they left them open from three. They didn't switch over in time, and they just kind of let him get into a groove because you can kind of always feel when he's about to go on one of his little runs. But I thought bridges really helped too. And it, you know, I, I didn't think Tibbs did a good job offensively the first three games, but I thought they mixed it up better in this game. It felt like everybody was a little, a little more involved. So this could, this could go down as. We'll see what happens with Tatum. But this could go down as one of the, one of the darker Celtic days. I mean, honestly, because especially the timing of, you know, not to mention he's at the peak of his career. He's never had a major injury, Tatum. And if this is like a, a major one, it doesn't just take him out for this playoffs, but it takes him out for, I think all of next year too. As you said, he is late 20s and you just wonder like, is he going to be able to get back to the point that he was at tonight? So we'll find out.
- [11:49]
J. Kyle Mann
The shame of it is the Celtics should have just tanked down the stretch, got themselves into the play and lost in the play in game and then used a half of a percent chances. They're like a half percent. It's a miracle what happens in the NBA. Miracles happen. Bill Sims.
- [12:04]
Joe House
It's amazing how it shifted though, from what you were talking about, Bill. Like the conversation that we were, we were on this. Nice. And if you're lucky, you get to have this conversation about your career and everything has to go right and it just speaks how difficult it is. But Tatum gets to this point in his, in his mid to late 20s where we're starting to have this conversation about like, well, what other levels are there left? And now it's like, do we get to have that conversation again? You know, now it's shifted to like, you just spelled it out. Can he. It shifts to can he get back? And yeah, that's, I mean, it's a huge fucking bummer, man, because. And I was just thinking, I was talking to. How about this before we got on that. Can you ever remember one night where there were more fan bases that were just absolutely depressed for a wide variety of reasons than tonight? Because I can't, like, somehow House's fan.
- [12:49]
Bill Simmons
Base didn't crack the top two for. For most oppressed. Yeah, well, we'll see what happens with the Tatum. But I, you know, this speaks to A, how hard, how hard it is to win a title. B, how important injury luck is and see how, how hard it is to just put together some really good years in a row. Like even to be in the finals two years in a row without basketball's played down, how physical and intense it is. And you know, Tatum was playing 40, 43 minutes a everything. He was the leading rebounder in the team. He was guarding Brunson, you know, a few times in this series. And today he was kind of their best option to guard Brunson. He was the point forward over and over again. He's attacking the rim. I thought when Hart tripped him, I couldn't. I thought that was a dirty play. They didn't review it, but he, you know, he was getting pounded on the whole game and, you know, you need some luck with this stuff. We're gonna take, we're take a break for the podcast. This episode is brought to you by Degree Original Cool Rush deodorant. Remember last year, people got really mad when Degree changed their Cool Rush formula. One dude even started a petition. What was up with that guy? Well, guess what? ° listened. They admitted they messed up. They're bringing back the original Cool Rush scent. And thank God. You've got to love when a brand can own its mistakes. And it's in Walmart, Target, and other stores right now for under $4. Grab some, find out why it's been the number one men's antiperspirant for the last decade. By the way, you should put that on especially. We're about to hit the summer. It's getting sweaty in the summers. The original Degree Cool Rush is back, and it smells like victory for all of us. The real reason you. You guys are on is because we're going to talk lottery, but for the. I'm going on Zach Lowe's podcast tomorrow. We're going to. Zach went to the lottery, and I'm basically going to set picks and rebounds for him as he's going to talk about what it was like to be behind the scenes for that. So, House, you had. What were your odds? You had the second best odds.
- [14:54]
J. Kyle Mann
Well, it was a flat 14% for the three worst teams. That's how they flattened out the odds to disincentivize. Egregious tanking. But, you know, we're allowed to curse on this thing.
- [15:06]
Bill Simmons
Please curse.
- [15:06]
J. Kyle Mann
It doesn't fucking matter. It doesn't fucking matter. The fat thumb comes out when the fat thumb comes out. Now, I certainly understand, you know, there's a code and there's. It's impossible to rig the balls. Except for the last 30 fucking years. Have. Have had a. A stunning number of. Of miracles. I mean, let's go back to 2011, when the NBA owned the motherfucking New Orleans Hornets, and somehow, miraculously, they find an owner. They, the David Stern vetoes a trade for Chris Paul to go to the Lakers because it's going to tilt the competitive balance of the league. David Stern vetoed it for basketball reasons. They finally find a buyer for the New Orleans Hornets. Somebody steps in and buys it from the NBA. Lo and behold, The New Orleans Hornets get the number one overall draft pick in the league, and it's Anthony Dave. Can you believe it? Can you believe the good luck of the, I mean, we'll just go through it. I'm not going to sit here and do the whole thing. But 2013, 2014, back to back Cleveland, number one overall picks and LeBron comes back in 2014, and that number one pick turns into Kevin Love. Man, that's interesting. That's some interesting history right there.
- [16:24]
Bill Simmons
2019, you forgot about 2011 when they had the decision and then the year after Cleveland won the lottery and got Kyrie Irving.
- [16:33]
J. Kyle Mann
I, I, I, I mean, I didn't forget. I'm just saying. I, I don't, I don't want to subject us to the entire litany here, but I did have Tim Donahue with me downstairs helping me remember some of these things. We're kind of mapping out, you know, some of the very interesting. It's really a league of, of, of miracles, this, this NBA of ours. But, you know, yes, New Orleans trades Anthony Davis to the Lakers and miraculous, it's another miracle. I mean, you know, a league full of miracles. They jump. New Orleans jumps from, from the seventh spot in terms of the pre draft where they should have been right up to the number one.
- [17:08]
Bill Simmons
So the best way to get the pick is to trade your best guy to the Lakers and then the miracles will align.
- [17:16]
J. Kyle Mann
But first of all, you're a sacrifice.
- [17:18]
Joe House
Of fat and cash.
- [17:19]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah. You're the son of a bitch who said that this was all going to happen back in March.
- [17:24]
Bill Simmons
I know. We had a worst contracts pod and I did a 35 second spiel on how we had to bet on Dallas to win the lottery because it was clearly how we were headed. It's, it's all in one of the podcasts. Come on. That's crazy. It's like, it's not crazy. It's like 1001 odds. Let's bet it. Of course we didn't bet it.
- [17:43]
J. Kyle Mann
No, we didn't bet it. It was 40 to 1 today. Should have bet it.
- [17:48]
Bill Simmons
Come in. I had a whole conspiracy bill outfit I was going to wear that my daughter helped picked out, but I'm so depressed after the Tatum thing. I'm not, I'm not doing any props. I'm just.
- [17:58]
Joe House
Do you want to cry on your props?
- [18:01]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I, I'm not going to wear the props, but this was just a hilarious outcome. I just, I couldn't believe it when they, when they leapt into the top four. First of all, who who did the. Who did it for me? Espn. Kevin Nagandi. He screwed up. He said Philly lost their pick and Philly had it. We hadn't even found out what was going to happen. And then Philly goes in there. So we have three people jump into there and it's Dallas, San Antonio, Philly, and then Charlotte was the only one that belonged. And it's just. We go to commercial and it's like, come on, Dallas is going to win this. Come on. There's no way. There's no way this is going to be the outcome. Stop it. Come on. What were you thinking as we got to the Final Four, other than our buddy Sharks?
- [18:45]
Joe House
Well, I was going to say if you saw like a live satellite image, I'm sure there were just like fires that just sort of lit up all across the map during that commercial break.
- [18:53]
Bill Simmons
Oh, God.
- [18:55]
Joe House
I noted in my. My notes are pretty funny here. Well, at first I was just like, why is Zion repping the Pelicans? And then Chicago. Well, when Dallas started to climb at like 10, I guess I noted it. I was like, whoa. I was like, even then I was. And then as they discontinued, you know, the Wizards obviously plummet. The Jazz plummet. It remind what Nico has done here. It reminded me his ability to, you know, navigate is the heavy, heaviest quotes imaginable. For him to go from that to where we were tonight, it reminded me of. My wife and I were on the interstate in like a torrential downpour one time, and this minivan lost control and hydroplaned and somehow miraculously avoided hitting another car. And the minivan we watched go up ahead of us, and there happened to be a ramp for a tow truck on the side of the road. And the minivan came to a complete stop unharmed on the ramp on the side of the road. And we were like, how the fuck. It was like Final Destination. That's the equivalent of what Nico just did. Like he somehow did. He survived. I think we've opened up a whole, like there's a whole other slew of questions and options from here, but, I mean, it's just. It's brute. I mean, I can't help but think of the fans that have. I don't know what is ethical. Rob tweeted out that there are no basketball gods and this is proof of it. And that's kind of how I'm feeling right now. I'm feeling. I'm feeling the.
- [20:15]
Bill Simmons
This is the all time night for me to feel that way. Yeah, Listen, they had 8.5% odds to move into the top four and 1.8 to win the thing. So we went into commercial. I was like, all right, 8.5. Makes sense. Charlotte had 14. Charlotte's probably going to win. Dallas will get like two, three or four. I was more mad that Philly somehow got, you know, got their bacon saved and ended up staying in the top six. I think that was another thing. House for conspiracy Bill. They couldn't let OKC have the seventh pick in the draft. They had to maybe do something on that.
- [20:47]
J. Kyle Mann
But I mean, I'll just interrupt you for a second. This another miracle. Daryl Morey and Nico Harrison Both get rewarded 2 of the top 3 worst contract responsible for the worst outcomes in terms of their franchises.
- [21:02]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
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J. Kyle Mann
During the course of this season. And both. It's just a miracle that both of them, you know, land where. Where they land. I mean, JKM had to use a real life miracle to make the. The analogy to the miracle.
- [21:15]
Joe House
I like yours over. I liked yours over. Text Joe. I don't know if you're willing to say it, but yours was pretty good.
- [21:20]
Bill Simmons
I'll give you the. I'll give you the actual numbers. 0.014 for that top three to go the way it did, which I think, I think says it all. And Utah somehow falls to five. And House's stupid team, the Wizards, who were either one of the worst or second worst teams of the season. And they fought a six. And you can't make this shit up. Pass.
- [21:44]
J. Kyle Mann
I mean, I had the good fortune of going on with Kyle on the NBA draft show last week and he was very kind. He said, let's, let's do a state of the Wizards. Within all reason, we think that they're going to get one of the top four picks like at the very outside. You know what pick? We didn't discuss under any circumstances whatsoever. The six fucking pick. We didn't talk about number six.
- [22:10]
Bill Simmons
You didn't talk about three teams jumping you.
- [22:13]
J. Kyle Mann
We didn't.
- [22:14]
Bill Simmons
We didn't because we were four teams.
- [22:16]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah.
- [22:17]
Joe House
I thought we played the karma game pretty wisely. I mean, you know, we were conceding like probably not the first. Let's talk about some of the lower guys. But I just, I didn't conceive of this outcome. House, I'm sorry, man. Really sorry.
- [22:28]
J. Kyle Mann
Well, because it's, it's inconceivable really when it, when go through.
- [22:31]
Bill Simmons
Can we go through some of the Dallas stuff? Topic number one. Did Dallas now win the trade? They traded Anthony Davis or they traded Luka Doncic for Anthony Davis? And Cooper Flag. If I presented that trade to you in January, we at least would have had a phone call about a house.
- [22:53]
J. Kyle Mann
Sure.
- [22:54]
Bill Simmons
Like, I'm not saying they intentionally won the trade. I'm just saying history. The way it works out, it's like, all right, if we're going to trade Luka Dodgy, we get Anthony Davis and Cooper Flag.
- [23:07]
J. Kyle Mann
It really, you know, just makes you really wonder because it was a no bid trade, Right. It wasn't. He didn't go around and canvas the league. There's not a lot of evidence that other teams were consistent. What would you be willing to give up for. For Luka?
- [23:22]
Bill Simmons
Everybody thought the fishiest trade in the history of the league, but it happened and now it's paid off. For Dallas. Kyle, Anthony Davis and Cooper Flag for Luka. Doncic is in the realm of a fair basketball trade.
- [23:35]
Joe House
Yeah. I mean, I don't bristle so much at that. Yeah. I'm just like, yeah, we, we have something for now and we have something in Cooper Flag. Odds are he'll be ready to go sooner than later based on everything that we've seen. But, you know, you can kind of bring him in.
- [23:48]
Bill Simmons
Didn't seem happy, by the way. Yeah, I didn't. Do you notice the look on his face?
- [23:52]
J. Kyle Mann
Two things. Two things. First of all, there's no way that Nico doesn't take Cooper. Right. That would be the funniest thing he took.
- [23:59]
Bill Simmons
He loves defense.
- [24:00]
J. Kyle Mann
Would that be the funniest thing? That would be the funniest thing now. But the second thing is Dallas isn't a great fit for a brand new play. Like the other. Only other young guy there, timeline wise, is lively. Like, they're super in transition. They don't have a point guard. They don't have a starting point guard right now.
- [24:17]
Bill Simmons
He's Kyle. Just make the 45 second case that how much better he is than the next possible prospect in the lottery. Like, you have to take him, right?
- [24:26]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah.
- [24:26]
Joe House
The simplest way to put it is he's the most well rounded prospect of my. I mean, other than he's on a short list, I would say him and LeBron, I'm saying. But LeBron had the shooting issues. He had a lot of things to figure out. Even though the highs are higher with some of the guys, you know, but it's just Cooper is the most well rounded prospect of my lifetime. That's the simplest way to put it. And the other guys in this. And he grimy, he grew an inch and he. And he has offensive upside to max out in Some different areas and we just haven't seen a lot of guys like that. So I just. The big question for the Mavs, for me is just what's nailed down? I mean they, are they going to just completely start over? You know, because it's like Kyrie's coming back. What, what is out of the realm of possibility for them in terms of what they could, what they could do to just to, you know, springboard off of this?
- [25:10]
J. Kyle Mann
Well, and the other thing with him, he just turned 18. Like. Yeah, he grew. Cause he just turned 18. I mean, he's a young, young, young fe. But go ahead.
- [25:18]
Bill Simmons
Right? He's still taking like the long naps and getting up at three in the, three in the afternoon. I think he can play right away next year and be good. So for what they're, what they're trying to do, the question for me now is could they flip Gafford or Lively and try to get one more score and try to buy time and, and just be in the playoff picture and then hope that Kyrie can come back April range and be in really good shape? I do wonder. There's two trades, actually, there's three trades and I don't think they should trade Flag. I think they should keep them. I'm just going to say that. Yeah, but would you, would you trade him to get Luka back? Would be the first trade. That would be the funniest outcome of all of it, right?
- [25:58]
J. Kyle Mann
That's the funniest.
- [26:00]
Joe House
No, that would be hilarious.
- [26:01]
Bill Simmons
I mean, they'd have to throw in contracts, but like what would the Lakers do if they called and said, hey, we want Luca back, we'll give you Cooper flag and some contracts. Second. Now can I, I just, I'll do a quick Giannis thing. That story today, I don't know what the hell that story was about. Giannis is now open to discussions about maybe what can happen down the road in the this summer and this season. Did he ask for a trade?
- [26:26]
Joe House
No, he's actively open minded. Bill, have you never found yourself about his future?
- [26:31]
Bill Simmons
Who the fuck is it? And by the way, he almost asked for a trade two years ago. I would assume every player who's one of the best players in the league, who hasn't made the conference finals in four years and who the second best player on his team just had a season ending injury and probably isn't playing next year, I would assume they're probably open minded about some things, about their future. Did he ask for a trade? No. How is this a story? This is What I call the Monday news thump house. We had the Friday news dump, the Monday news bump. Let's start the news cycle on a Monday morning with the story that's not really a story, but we get a whole day of conversation out of it.
- [27:12]
J. Kyle Mann
You know who is actively open minded? Frank in White Lotus, Sam Rockwell. He was actively open minded.
- [27:20]
Joe House
I was trying to think of a going for that.
- [27:22]
J. Kyle Mann
Tonight I tell you about how actively open minded.
- [27:25]
Bill Simmons
I'm only laughing so I don't cry.
- [27:30]
J. Kyle Mann
Great job. Great job. Giannis.
- [27:32]
Joe House
You could ask Nico before the lottery and he would have said he was actively open minded about getting the number one pick. It's just like. Yeah, well, just wait.
- [27:39]
Bill Simmons
So Giannis is open minded about maybe some other alternatives than playing for a 43 and 39 team. Really? He's going to take some time to think about that. Anyway, if they tried to offer this pick for Giannis, which would be more on the tie line. That timeline that Kyle Mann mentioned, you said Thailand and Thailand for a white.
- [28:00]
J. Kyle Mann
Guy who looked like me.
- [28:06]
Bill Simmons
They'D have to match some contracts back. But Anthony Davis with Giannis, that's not nothing. Then the third thing is, and I don't think they should do this either. So I, I vote no in the first two trades. What would they have to throw in with the number two if you're San Antonio to move up one spot.
- [28:23]
Joe House
Oh my God.
- [28:24]
Bill Simmons
Now it gets interesting. If you really. And again, I would not trade Flag, but if San Antonio was like, we'll just flip spots and here's a whole bunch of stuff like they have a war chest of picks. I, I probably would include anyone except Castle and obviously Wembanyama. But what I just wonder like, could Dallas, like actually turn this into a real hall?
- [28:50]
J. Kyle Mann
And you, you know, you didn't exclude the Aaron Fox. You put him on the table.
- [28:56]
Bill Simmons
Well, what am I going to do with him and Kyrie. Kyrie is still on the team.
- [28:59]
J. Kyle Mann
Kyrie ain't playing next year, buddy.
- [29:01]
Bill Simmons
I know he's not.
- [29:02]
Joe House
The Aaron Fox could play if Kyrie's ever the same again. But I'm not going to. I'm not ready to assume that at his age. You know, I just think the Mavs. The Mavs are. The more you think about the roster, they are going to have some, they, they have some dissonance in the Gafford. I know that it's kind of up in the air the, the Gafford lively ad like flag thing. Even if they did somehow get into the Giannis conversation. Giannis and eight he's fun to think about, but do we, do we talk about the aging curve for Giannis enough though? He's 31 years old. He's a heavily downhill player. You know, the shooting can't really shoot.
- [29:35]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [29:35]
Joe House
Is. How is it. I love him to death, but I just wonder how his game is going to age. And you think, you just start to think about trading him and what's, what's the upside? How much time are you really going to get? I don't know about. I don't know about.
- [29:47]
Bill Simmons
Let's do a Cooper Flag roster question.
- [29:49]
Joe House
Yeah, let's go.
- [29:50]
Bill Simmons
Could you play him at small forward?
- [29:52]
Joe House
Yeah, why not?
- [29:56]
J. Kyle Mann
Totally agree. Think that's the, honestly, the best spot for him to get out lively with.
- [30:01]
Bill Simmons
Anthony Davis and Flag, and that's their front line and he could guard, you know, perimeter scorers. Right. And get away with it flat. No. Why are you making gestures?
- [30:11]
J. Kyle Mann
I want to hear Kyle's defense of Cooper's defense. If he's going to play that shooting guard spot, you know, that small forward spot.
- [30:21]
Bill Simmons
Larry Bird played it.
- [30:22]
J. Kyle Mann
He's out guarding. He's out guarding perimeter players in the modern NBA with the, with the slash ability of a lot of the modern NBA. What's your, what's your honest assessment?
- [30:33]
Joe House
Kyle Jacoby and I were texting about this because he noticed that the one thing, if you wanted to nitpick Cooper's defense is that he does bend at his back a little bit in his posture. He doesn't sit as low as some of it, but he is also a generationally special help defender. So the, and so if you think about having, My God, if you, if you just think about having AD and Flag on the floor together, those are two of the best help. I mean, those are two of the best space covering, disruptive defenders of the last ever. I mean, on the same, on another thing too, is that Flag is a really good lob thrower. So you're putting on the, you're putting another guy on the floor that can throw to ad. So those, those two things are interesting in terms of like guarding the ball. I mean, he can guard threes and fours. I, I don't see any problem with that. Okay.
- [31:17]
J. Kyle Mann
Okay.
- [31:18]
Bill Simmons
Also, he can grow into it. Maybe he's like a 25 to 20 minutes. I, I listen, there's no centers. Everybody needs a center. And if they wanted to shop gaffer, I mean, ironically, the Lakers are a team that could use the center. Maybe we could have a little gaffer. Austin Reeves trade. Finally, the Mavs could throw in more stuff. I oh, the last Dallas thing House mentioned earlier, they made the playing game and won the lottery. They were in the playing game. And one Cooper flag. What if Memphis had just beaten them? Then they're the eight seed. Remember that game? I think House that I bet on Dallas.
- [32:03]
J. Kyle Mann
No, Memphis did beat them. That's how they ended.
- [32:07]
Bill Simmons
We bet on Dallas in that playing game.
- [32:10]
J. Kyle Mann
I can't remember now. We bet on Dallas definitely to beat Sacramento. But then I think I laid away because the Memphis game was in Memphis and it was like a chance for Memphis to prove that the whole season wasn't a waste. So I think we decided to stay away.
- [32:24]
Bill Simmons
This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. Summer is almost here and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. What do we mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parmesan delivered. A cabana? That's a no. A banana? That's a yes. A nice tan. Sorry, no. But a box fan? Happily, yes. A day of sunshine? Nope. A box of fine wines? Yeah, Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with UberEats. Order now. Alcohol in select markets. Product availability may vary by region. C app for details. This episode is brought to you by Vrbo Private Vacation Rentals. With Vrbo, you can save over $200 on select homes when you stay for a week or more. Say you want to go catch a few baseball games in Boston. Take some time off work, fly into Beantown, watch the socks play. After that you can do anything. Go book a verbo in Cape Cod for a week. The world is your oyster or lobster roll or clam chowder really. If it has shells, gills and inside indigenous to the Atlantic, it's your edible metaphor of choice. They're crustacean crazy down there. And guess what? Since you stayed longer than a week, you saved over $200. You know what that means? More shellfish. I love shellfish. Hope you're not allergic. Next vacation, stay longer and save. Make it a vrbo. This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. From graduation celebrations to pool parties, celebrate the start of summer with Whole Foods Market. Look for hundreds of of yellow low priced signs and save on no antibiotics ever. Ground beef and boneless skinless chicken breasts. 365 by Whole Foods Market. Organic salad kits and much more. Plus with Our House brand365 by Whole Foods Market. You'll find all your grilling essentials at daily low Prices. Find these great prices in store and online. Save on May celebrations with great everyday prices at Whole Foods Market. Terms apply. Well, House did this earlier and I'm going to do my version of. I'm not saying these lotteries were rigged, but if we ever found out 60 years later that a lottery was rigged, these would be my candidates. Here's my list. Number one, Patrick Ewing, New York Knicks, 1985 with the seven envelopes and whether they froze the side of one of them, it would have been the easiest one to rig. Put it that way. Number two is the Kyrie Cleveland 2011 after LeBron went to Miami. Number three was the 2019. Thanks for trading Anthony Davis to the Lakers. Now here's Zion Williamson. Number four was. Thanks for buying the New Orleans basketball team. Here's young Anthony Davis as your prize 2012. Number five was the 2014 man. LeBron just needs one more asset and he might go back to Cleveland. Ah, we'll give them number one pick. And then number six for me would be LeBron in Cleveland in 2003, sending him home back to Ohio home versus sending him to Memphis. So I'm not saying the NBA rigs the lotteries. I'm just saying if we ever found out 60 years from now that there was more than one shooter for JFK and there was one rigged lottery, those would be my choices. Okay.
- [35:48]
Joe House
The Magic. Getting Penny was pretty crazy. Or getting Weber ultimately was pretty crazy percentage too, wasn't it? Wasn't it down there in the. Was it like 4% or something crazy like that? But I don't know. But that's. I mean, that works against your argument, I guess, right? Any, any freak sort of, you know, movement in the odds.
- [36:05]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, the. Against the arguments was how San Antonio just got Tim Duncan and Victor Wembiama somehow. Right. Those would be the two. San Antonio at number two, Kyle. So they're. They get lot. I mean, there's so much basketball news today. The knicks are up 3:1 Tatum. God only knows how bad that injury was. We still don't know. Flag goes to Dallas. Nico Harrison, I guess, saves his job. And yet buried in underneath all of this is, oh shit, I hope San Antonio doesn't get another awesome pick and they end up getting number two. Which you think is going to be Dylan Harper, right?
- [36:43]
Joe House
Yeah, yeah, I do. I thought a lot about it and you know, I think for them, if San Antonio does stay in the thinking that we were just talking about where they are, definitely they could play this a number of ways. They could Play this where they could potentially look at getting a bigger piece because we know Victor is ready to roll. I mean he's, he's, he's ready, he has been ready sooner than we thought. You know, he's already on that defensive player of the year, you know, track. They go and they get Deer and Fox to show their seriousness. Are they going to make one more move? But I think taking Harper, if you look at it just in the right now basketball sense, I wrote in our mock draft that just went up if you want to check that out. We're going to talk about it more on the ringer NBA draft show tomorrow. But he can play with Fox. He can play, he can play with any, they can bring him along slowly because he has such great positional size. But I also think that he's, if they do choose to make a move, I think he's the best asset available. So he kind of serves both purposes because Harper isn't quite the Flag level. You know, he's probably more on the cade level of a number one pick type player if, if, if flag wasn't there. But I think he's the most attractive asset for if there's a team out there that is heartbroken, that wants to make a move, that wants to start over, let's say hypothetically just pulling the name out of the hat. Milwaukee, a great square one starting point. I think Harper, you know, serves that purpose. So I think they can do both there. I, I don't think I would go any other direction than Harper there.
- [38:04]
Bill Simmons
Hey. News just broke that Giannis is open minded about barbecue tonight.
- [38:15]
J. Kyle Mann
House. So did Frank House.
- [38:17]
Bill Simmons
Would you what, what needs to be in a Yanis trade if the number two pick is the prize of the trade to get Giannis, what else needs to be in there? Do I have to get Castle if I'm Milwaukee, is it number two and I have to get both? Am I good with number two and a bunch of picks? Does Devin Vassell have to be in that trade? Who else needs to be in it for you?
- [38:38]
J. Kyle Mann
The hard thing is like what are you trying to tell your fans? Isn't it better to tell your fans we had an awesome run. Giannis was with us. The title that he delivered. We had a once in a generation, once in a lifetime player here. He was loyal. He hasn't done anything wrong. He committed, he extended, he extended. They tried to build a good team for him to compete. If he goes, I think it's better to go just be brutally bad. I just think it's Better to start over. As many picks as you can get.
- [39:11]
Bill Simmons
They don't have their own picks is the problem.
- [39:13]
J. Kyle Mann
They have to get as many picks as they can. That's. That's what I'm saying. They need every pick that they can get and just jettison everybody because otherwise, you know, what's the point of 32 wins? Like, what's the point of, you know, just Castle? Is Castle and Harper on the same. Basically the same timeline. Is that like a good starting point? Does that like prime the pump a little bit for what a rehab rebuild.
- [39:39]
Joe House
Looks like you're still going to be bad. I think if those are two. I mean, the league. Yeah, the threat, the bar. The bar is such that I think there's still going to be bad enough to, to, to pick and you know, yeah, go get the picks. But if I'm, if I'm Milwaukee in this hypothetical scenario. Yeah, I'm trying to get, I'm going to try to get Vesel. I, I'm trying to think Johnson seems like he's going to be expendable to whatever they're doing here.
- [40:04]
Bill Simmons
Well, you need contracts to put in for Gianna's trade is part of the problem. If I'm San Antonio if I think Harper is going to be this good. Wimy's. What is Wimy? Like 21. What kind of timetable am I in anyway? Like, and I'm the king of. Hey, if you have somebody who's awesome, the timetable should start like pretty soon. But Wemby's still pretty young. How for. From Harper standpoint, like your absolute ceiling on him, could he be the second best guy on the title team? Like, is that the ceiling or would you say third best guy?
- [40:39]
Joe House
I think he could be the second best. I mean, if you think the big thing for him is the dribble pull up shooting. If he can shoot the ball off the dribble because, because he shot it pretty well off the catch in a really abysmal Rutgers offense. Like, I cannot emphasize enough how bad it was.
- [40:56]
Bill Simmons
So they just had the worst coach ever. Like, how do you have top four picks?
- [41:00]
Joe House
I think it's whenever, whenever. I think there are a lot of factors at play. I think whenever you're a program that doesn't typically have those types of players. I just think they, they were top heavy in the, in what they could pay for. I think just the whole rest of the supporting cast just did. Could not. Their bigs were awful. They're passing and it hurt. It hurt Bailey even more than it hurt Harper. But Yeah, I think if he, if he can improve the dribble, pull up shooting, he gets downhill, he can pass. Tom Cream. Our show was talking about how he needs to pass with his right hand a little bit better. But you know, those are, those are nitpicks. I think he's going to get there with me and his, his, his footwork in the paint is really, really exceptional. Really, really special. Special. I mean, he, he shot something like 72% at the rim on like really, really high Vol. Those. That's like, you know, big guy numbers.
- [41:45]
Bill Simmons
So you had for player comps.
- [41:49]
J. Kyle Mann
Ron.
- [41:49]
Bill Simmons
Harper, little like a little James Hardenish. There's like a whiff of James Harden in there.
- [41:55]
Joe House
I, I didn't. I don't remember what I had. We. We've. We both allowed each other the liberty to make our picks so he would have to explain his thinking on it. But I kind of. I mean, my, my one that I was. That I had in my notebook is. I said that he could thread a needle between Cade Cunningham and Jalen Bronson because his feet remind me of Jalen.
- [42:14]
Bill Simmons
But he sounds like James Harden.
- [42:16]
Joe House
He's bigger. Yeah. I mean, he's not quite the natural passer that James is, but yeah, his downhill stuff is exceptional.
- [42:23]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah. Would have been really good on the Wizards.
- [42:25]
Joe House
Sorry, House. Sorry.
- [42:27]
Bill Simmons
What do you want? What do you want San Antonio to do? Just the long haul.
- [42:30]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah.
- [42:30]
Bill Simmons
Just keep adding young pieces and you could maybe lure a free agent and in two years.
- [42:35]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah.
- [42:36]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [42:36]
J. Kyle Mann
This is a tremendous trade asset. Like I, you know, it's kind of stupid. They just acquired him and we're already. I'm already ready to trade him, but I am ready to trade him.
- [42:45]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, but. Because that was a wink, wink special, though.
- [42:48]
J. Kyle Mann
What's that mean?
- [42:49]
Bill Simmons
We'll trade for you now and we'll give you a big contract in the summer or whatever. That's already done.
- [42:55]
Joe House
Fox.
- [42:56]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [42:56]
Joe House
He. Harper and Fox can play together, I think. Yeah. Okay.
- [43:00]
J. Kyle Mann
Okay. All right.
- [43:02]
Joe House
Good. Why not?
- [43:03]
J. Kyle Mann
I'm here for.
- [43:03]
Bill Simmons
I forget who. I forget who said this on my pod. I really apologize. I think it might have been Goldsberry. I can't remember about Fox playing with Sabonis. Two lefties rolling off with the. Throwing the lob. Was that you, Kyle?
- [43:15]
Joe House
Man, I think Kirk said that.
- [43:18]
J. Kyle Mann
I remember Goldsberry.
- [43:19]
Bill Simmons
How weird it is to have a lefty driving left, but throwing lobs to a lefty where it's like, now you have the wembanyama and it just like makes more sense for the labs. Philadelphia number three oh, one more thing on San Antonio. So we end up beefing up those two teams. We might have lost Jason Tatum tonight for a year. Cleveland's completely self combusted and the west just. We always have. We go in these phases where it seems like finally the west, we're finally going to get a league with a little more balance. And now the league feels more imbalanced than it's ever been. You know, think like we're gonna have an Indiana, New York, Eastern Conference finals potentially, unless the Celtics can miraculously come back, which I wouldn't necessarily bet on. But now you look at like the two best guys in this draft that everybody feels the best about are both going to the west combined with Lucas still there, et cetera, et cetera. All right, Philly, so I asked you to send me a mock draft, Kyle, of just the top six or seven, and you had Ace Bailey going here to Philly, who is the most polarizing high draft prospect I can remember. People don't know what to make of this dude. And I gotta admit, I haven't done the full deep dive of him yet, but pretty unusual. One of those guys who could have 27 points, zero rebounds and zero assists. And that could just be his box score.
- [44:46]
Joe House
Yeah, I mean, this is one we can kind of. I think your points that you made about him are valid based on what Maury has liked in the past. I think there's a couple ways to think about this if.
- [44:56]
Bill Simmons
Wait, we got to say what those points were? Cause I was texting them to you.
- [45:00]
Joe House
Yeah, go ahead.
- [45:01]
Bill Simmons
I was saying more. Darryl loves fill the box score, guys.
- [45:05]
J. Kyle Mann
Okay.
- [45:05]
Bill Simmons
He loves like the 18 points, eight rebounds, seven assists, three steals and ace.
- [45:10]
J. Kyle Mann
What's not the love?
- [45:11]
Bill Simmons
Ace is kind of the opposite.
- [45:13]
J. Kyle Mann
And.
- [45:14]
Bill Simmons
But Kyle, you had Ace going to the Sixers anyway. But I thought you had a good case for it.
- [45:19]
Joe House
Well, I mean, if you're thinking about the Sixers and you.
- [45:22]
J. Kyle Mann
I'll.
- [45:22]
Joe House
I'll throw this to some of you for, for you guys for how you feel about what they're be thinking about. You know, are the, are they going to make a serious run at rebooting this in the short term? I mean, you might as well in terms. Well, the, the embiid things, a whole other conversation. But I, I'm thinking of if you're going to run this back and try one more time. Bailey does fit with, with what they would be doing because their ball hand, their, their touches are spoken for with Embiid, with Paul George, with Maxi, with McCain when he comes Back Bailey. You know, Bailey is a guy who, for people who haven't watched him, the most similar guy in terms of his shot diet is. Is Michael Porter Jr. And the fact that he makes a lot. He. He's a non.
- [46:06]
Bill Simmons
You both made mazes.
- [46:08]
Joe House
He's a tough shot maker, you know, and I think he's somebody. And one of the. His. His efficiencies were hurt by what we were talking about before. He can. He loves to. He's somebody that, like, at the end of the clock he can just make something out of nothing. So he has that. But he's also a pretty good athlete. There was a lot of. Zach and I were talking about his measurement coming in. There were people that thought he was six foot ten. I had heard that he was closer to six foot eight and a quarter. It turns out that's kind of closer to what he is. But he's somebody. He's a supplementary kind of a guy, but he's long and explosive off of one step, so he can kind of block shots. But my thing that I was saying to you about vj, which is what you thought BJ absolutely could fit the bill in what you're talking about in terms of. He could. He could turn. He's somebody that's not going to be really role insistent early on. He's going to be able to play off the ball. He's a crazy athlete. He measured really well. I think it's 6 foot 5. I need to get the exact number.
- [46:57]
Bill Simmons
We needed him to get to 6 foot 5 to be, I think, the third pick. Right. Because you were worried he was going to basically be like a two guard.
- [47:04]
Joe House
Yeah, I was worried.
- [47:04]
Bill Simmons
We needed him to be a little bit bigger so he could guard basically every position.
- [47:08]
Joe House
I was worried he was going to be like a Ben Gordon type where it's like, oh, he's a great athlete. It's like, ah, he's shitty. He's like six, two and a half with it. But no, he's. He measured well. My thing was I kind of wondered about McCain, Maxi and Edgecombe together. Just the way that those guys play together, they're a little on the smaller side, all three of them are. And when you're moving forward. But I could. Honestly, that one, I could kind of go either way, but I thought Ace fit more into what they have right now and he could improve a lot over time.
- [47:36]
Bill Simmons
My money would be on Edgecom. Just feels like more of a Darrell pick. Meanwhile, House, you're not getting either guy.
- [47:43]
J. Kyle Mann
That's a true story.
- [47:44]
Bill Simmons
Most of them are off the board by the time because, you know, the.
- [47:46]
J. Kyle Mann
Sixers really earned it. You know, the Sixers really, you know, they, they, they have a vision with their franchise. They're, you know, in this development, this is my one question, and I guess I'll go into the Philly message boards to get this. What's the track record for this iteration of the Philadelphia coaching staff in terms of development? Because either Ace or Newcomb, those are both development players. They're not NBA ready. In my humble opinion. They can come in and be on the floor, but they're not NBA competitive ready. So what is. In the first place, Philadelphia has the answer. Who are we? What, what are we going to do this upcoming season? Are we going to try and, you know, make a deep run in the playoffs, or is this a transition year? And then question two. How are we going to develop this kid that we're going to get at number three?
- [48:32]
Bill Simmons
Or do you package three and Paul George and try to get somebody.
- [48:37]
Joe House
Love that.
- [48:37]
J. Kyle Mann
Love that. That is. That's a Daryl Morey.
- [48:41]
Bill Simmons
It's like, hey, any interest in the last three years of Paul George's contract? But you also get the number three pick in the draft. And then, you know, I wish Rudy was on the zoom quick so I could throw out the Franz Wagner for Paul George in number three.
- [48:53]
Joe House
Oh, that's not fair.
- [48:55]
Bill Simmons
That's not a.
- [48:56]
Joe House
Not, not a.
- [48:57]
Bill Simmons
Not interesting trade.
- [48:58]
J. Kyle Mann
What about. I mean, Miami needs it more.
- [49:00]
Bill Simmons
I don't know, but Miami doesn't have any assets other than nothing.
- [49:04]
J. Kyle Mann
Miami has nothing.
- [49:05]
Bill Simmons
That's my favorite one team. When people list the Giannis teams, they're like, in Miami, it's like, what the fuck is Miami trading? They're trading game out of bio for Giannis and then he has. Giannis has nobody at his team. Couple more interesting, interesting things about Philly 2 GM saved their jobs tonight, it feels like, because if that pick falls to seven, I don't think Daryl gets fired tomorrow. But I think he really needed that pick now. Now there's positive momentum in a whole bunch of different ways. And then Nico Harrison, obviously, obviously we were headed toward, you know, God only knows what. You know, we didn't talk about this with the Dallas piece. I forgot to mention it. I know a lot of Mavs fans. I won't, I won't name two of them that have told me this, that after the Luca trade, just did not want to root for the team anymore.
- [49:54]
Joe House
Oh, you don't say. That wasn't. That wasn't plain.
- [49:57]
Bill Simmons
But Literally. And then they got Flagged and they're like, I'm still out. I don't know if I believe that.
- [50:06]
J. Kyle Mann
You got, you got that message tonight.
- [50:08]
Bill Simmons
I don't know if I believe that. I think that's just. That's just somebody being wounded. But I think, I think they come back for Flag.
- [50:14]
Joe House
I just think they're going to go through the phase of mad at Nico for it working out for him. Like, I think we're going to go through that phase and then they'll slowly be softened into sort of a. I don't know, a blissful nihilism or something. I don't know. It just seems like. It seems like they. That's the reaction immediately, right?
- [50:32]
J. Kyle Mann
It's late night on, on the BS pod. Can I say that he's the white fit. I mean, you go from, from Dirk to Luca to Cooper. There's a certain through line, a certain commonality there. That suit seems like it might suit the situation.
- [50:46]
Bill Simmons
The league is built around luck. You can make the worst trade recent history of professional sports, and then it works out. You can be playing the best game, one of the best games of your career and all of a sudden be rolling around in a heap. Now I'm depressed again. I can't believe this Jason Tatum thing. I feel like I'm like one of those things where I'm in shock and it hasn't set in yet and then I'm going to look back two hours from and be like, how did I do a hour long YouTube live.
- [51:14]
Joe House
It's called shock. Yeah.
- [51:16]
Bill Simmons
Well, could Philly be good next year would be another question.
- [51:19]
Joe House
You said positive momentum. I'm like, the more we're talking about it, it's like, is it that positive?
- [51:26]
Bill Simmons
They got McCain and the number three pick coming back next year and then maybe keep your fingers crossed. Who knows? Embiid possib? Possibly. Sort of. Maybe.
- [51:33]
Joe House
No.
- [51:35]
J. Kyle Mann
Let's set the over under for number of games he plays in the regular season. 20, 25, 20, 26. I'll set it at 35 and a half.
- [51:46]
Bill Simmons
How? Yeah, he's what, 31.
- [51:48]
J. Kyle Mann
Does it matter? I don't know. 30, 31, 32. Whatever he is.
- [51:53]
Bill Simmons
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- [53:24]
Joe House
31 by the way. You said. Oh Charlotte, pull up my fourth pick.
- [53:30]
J. Kyle Mann
Charlotte. They just changed their name. Yeah, fourth pick Charlotte.
- [53:33]
Joe House
I had him take an edge comb because I thought that he was a nice. He's a nice balance between if they really are going to lean in and keep keep the Brandon Miller Lamelo thing going. That's those two are guys, big wings who can handle and pass and dribble. Pull up shoot. I think they needed somebody to get downhill. They really need something to balance out that trio. And I think Edgecomb is a guy who is less usage insistent compared to those two guys. I think he'll be happy to play the role that he'll play. So I and also he's a lob threat too. I don't think people understand. I compared him to the way he jumps. He's incredibly fast off the floor out of house. Have you gotten even see Edgecombe yet? Just he is.
- [54:15]
J. Kyle Mann
You were encouraging me to do so but I did. I did the work because I thought we were going to get one, two or three. I was saving my edgecom. I was like oh, downside Scenario. I don't want to jinx it. I don't want to look at the guy who's going to get taken fourth because my team's not going to get. You're not going to be drafting fourth. But, you know, so no, I haven't looked at him.
- [54:33]
Bill Simmons
There's no chance he can go second. Right. Like you would just rule that out, cross it off. It's not happening.
- [54:40]
Joe House
Anything's possible. I mean, hey, do you think Harper.
- [54:44]
Bill Simmons
Has second locked up? Cause I think I, I think when teams work out Edgecomb and really look at the. It's just the kind of guy you need and the kind of guy you've needed in the NBA for 20 years.
- [54:58]
Joe House
You know, he's a little, He's a shade. They're roughly. They're a push in terms of their age. I, I just think that Harper is just so much more advanced than him in terms of like his on ball creation and stuff like that. But the counter is, you know, bj. BJ was a pretty good. If you watch him shoot the ball, he kind of looks like an athlete who has learned to shoot. It's not as natural, it's. But I'm not down. He will get there. I mean, you see like OG has developed into a great shooter, but obviously apple and orange is on that. But I mean, bj, I still feel like Harper is a solid number two. The spurs, though, I mean, who knows? Yeah, they always seem to kind of have their own board. And you talk to some of these teams. I've talked to teams who'd be like, you know, we had so and so number two. And you just kind of are bowled back by that. You get, you can get a little drunk and misled by the public thinking that the public discourse is the same as the behind closed doors discourse. And I think people would be a little shocked by how different it can be sometimes.
- [55:56]
Bill Simmons
Well, and then you have Khan Knipple going to Utah at 5. And I just want to say he's my, he's my favorite in this draft just because I like him, because he's a listener. So shout out to him, hey, listen to the show. Yeah, he listens. There's a picture of him reading my book when he's like 8 years old. So he's now my favorite player in the draft because I'm selfish.
- [56:19]
Joe House
You didn't tell me that. Did you know that from the beginning when you said.
- [56:21]
Bill Simmons
I only found it out last week because I kept talking about how much I liked him because remember I kept saying that I thought he was going to go spots too late, but now it seems like he's not going to go five spots too late. You think he's going to go in the top seven?
- [56:34]
Joe House
Yeah, I mean, he's an awesome plan. I think he's going to. He's going to do both. He has great size. He can. They need passing and they need shooting. And he is going to be a great fit in that. In that sense. Like he's going to be in on him.
- [56:44]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, I'm super in on him. He can play basketball. He. He's a Hooper. I love that he's always trying to get to the paint. He's not like dilly dallying out here. Let me see. No man's going downhill. He's trying to get to the paint. He's welcoming the contact. He's got that big body. 6, 7, 2, 20. That's a baller. And you know his. His instincts in terms of offensive rebounding. I don't know what the numbers are. I let Kyle share. I just felt like he was always around the basket when Duke needed, you know, a hand on a ball, a tip, something like that. Big KK fan.
- [57:24]
Bill Simmons
That leads us to the Wizards at number six.
- [57:30]
Joe House
What do you say, Knipple? I wanted to add this on there. 49% on spot up looks this year and 39% on. Off screen. Yeah, he's a. He's a dynamic shooter. And he can.
- [57:40]
Bill Simmons
How old is he? Is he. What's. What's the age for him?
- [57:44]
Joe House
Knipple's almost 20. Yeah, but it can vary a lot.
- [57:48]
Bill Simmons
That makes a picture of him reading my book.
- [57:51]
Joe House
That's amazing.
- [57:53]
J. Kyle Mann
Let's get Utah to send us.
- [57:55]
Bill Simmons
I'm gonna have them on. I gotta have them on, right?
- [57:56]
J. Kyle Mann
Well, listen, I wanna. I wanna. Jersey get Utah to send us my favorite player.
- [58:01]
Bill Simmons
It's a picture of him as a kid reading my book. That's all I need. I don't need any other.
- [58:05]
J. Kyle Mann
Any other data and I can corroborate.
- [58:07]
Joe House
Bill texted. Well, before he got that.
- [58:09]
Bill Simmons
I did. I just. You could just tell, you know, my certain. And the people who are always moving without the ball and are additive, those are always the guys I'm going to be drawn to. So number six.
- [58:19]
Joe House
Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. House didn't seem to like this, but I was thinking, I think there could be some serious movement. I think there could be. I like the hypothetical of what they could add here because Sar is this. Hypoth is hypothetical. There's that word again. Take a drink. Stretch big. He obviously is not super comfortable around the basket yet. Playing with force. That's been an issue. Are you waiting for me to call on you?
- [58:45]
J. Kyle Mann
I'm waiting because I am going to surprise you. Please complete your thought.
- [58:49]
Joe House
I think they have a chance here. Now that you've fallen, you can really lean into an identity of just being gigantic. I think that if you put Malawatch next to Sar, next to Koulibaly, that already is a crazy young, huge front court. But also at 6, I could see like Atlanta really needs a guy like Mallowatch. I could see them. I could see somebody reaching up if that. Who needs an anchor. Like they. They're one example. I haven't heard a ton of buzz about that, but that's. That's one just kind of hypothetical idea that, That I was thinking about for the. For the Wiz. Lean into being huge.
- [59:24]
J. Kyle Mann
I fucking love my watch. Not only do I love him, this is an honest, honest to God truth. I tried to make the case for him during the NCAA tournament because of how impactful he was controlling the defensive boards and his shot blocking. Early in the tournament, I tried to convince my guys on East Coast Bias to join me on like. I think it was like 175 to 1 for him to win most outstanding player in the Final Four because the way that he can control the. On defense, the impactfulness, I think it's an incredible fit. He's exactly on the timeline that these young guys are on. They're all basically the same age, between 18 and a half and 20 and a half at best. And he. They. What they are missing is indeed a defensive presence, a low post, shop blocker, rim protector. Kassar wants to be out on the perimeter, and that's fine. His feet are good. He can go out and defend threes and fours a little bit. And Koulibaly, you know, if he. If he just needs. He needs a little more ass on him. I might have to take him out eating here in D.C. i got some spots for him, some calories for the man. But isn't.
- [60:36]
Bill Simmons
The whole point of Sar is like he. He's basically. Can be Sergio Baka, right? So you can. You can play those two together.
- [60:43]
J. Kyle Mann
Absolutely. You can. Yes.
- [60:45]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. It's just. I don't think he gets past six. I'd be. So I'm bullish and I bullish on him. I've done admittedly not nearly enough work on this draft yet, but it felt. It felt like the five guys and then I would throw in. I think Trey Johnson's gonna go. I, I, I think you probably have caniple two spots too high. I think I'd be surprised if he goes top five. Cause I think Trey Johnson will be the other one that rises up and I think teams will. And I say this, having the most caniple stock as we get closer to the draft. He's the type of guy teams start talking themselves out of because they go to the combines. They're like oh man, this guy jumped 43 inches. Oh, now I have a fifth start.
- [61:27]
Joe House
Start looking at those spreadsheets and talking to yourself.
- [61:29]
Bill Simmons
There's going to be two guys that climb right. And so Knippo will probably be in that seven to nine range would be my guess. Which by the way some, some decent teams in there, including New Orleans. Poor Brooklyn by the way. Not poor Brooklyn. Cause they, it was all self inflicted. But you know they, they, they were trying to tank more than anybody. Their coach was Dennis Schroeder. They had these guys winning games early. They had, they had to get rid of guys, dump guys and then ended up kind of in the vicinity of everybody else. And now they're eight. So not awesome. And then the other one was Houston I guess that had a, you know, had, was having dreams of maybe climbing up in the top four but was not able to do that. All right, House. So it seems like we figured out who you want to draft.
- [62:15]
J. Kyle Mann
I love, I love the two guy. Yes. Out of all the possibilities that that would help soothe some of these wounds.
- [62:22]
Joe House
He did suggest that we draw a butthole for the guide though. I just think people should know that I don't know house well.
- [62:28]
J. Kyle Mann
No, no, it wasn't with respect to any particular player that may be there just there was an artistic rendering for sort of each player. And my recommendation to Kyle was for six for Washington. For them falling there. Just take, do a pencil etching of my butthole. Just put that in there. You don't need the face of.
- [62:48]
Joe House
I don't want the reference image for that. So you know, I don't know. No, I. Frank angry Bill. Is this a normal thing? Is angry how he gets increased? The graph of Joe being angry and his funniness. The lines just kind of go side by side.
- [63:04]
J. Kyle Mann
The angrier gets the funnier.
- [63:05]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. If you're doing the house formula, there's probably some cocktails. Were there cocktails in that house?
- [63:10]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, man. It's my birthday. It's for another 45 minutes today.
- [63:14]
Bill Simmons
I should probably have known that since we've been friends since 1988.
- [63:17]
J. Kyle Mann
We're old man. We were good as middle aged. We don't be counting we made it.
- [63:21]
Bill Simmons
To another birthday house.
- [63:22]
J. Kyle Mann
I know it's another excuse to go grab a couple drinks, I'll tell you that much. And I did have a couple and then, and then I, and then I doubled when, when I saw that we fell to six. But we're in good shape for a.
- [63:32]
Bill Simmons
Birthday present that Adam Silver delivered the number six pick to house a pencil.
- [63:37]
J. Kyle Mann
Etching of my butthole.
- [63:40]
Bill Simmons
All right, we're gonna pack it in. Thanks for, thanks for joining me. Don't forget I'm gonna be on Zach Lowe's podcast tomorrow. He's gonna talk about behind the scenes. He said it was pretty crazy as people were realizing what was happening with the balls. So I'll be on there tomorrow. Thanks to Gahau. Thanks to Eduardo as well. I really hope by some sort of miracle, Jason Tatum it wasn't as bad as it seemed, but I guess we will find out tomorrow morning. Thanks to everybody who stayed on the YouTube stream as well. See you next time. Must be 21 plus and President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + in President D.C. gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York.