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The Bill Simmons Podcast
Tatum’s Stunning Return, Wemby’s Big Weekend, and a 2011 MVP Deep Dive With Zach Lowe
01:47:32
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- [00:00]
Bill Simmons
This episode is brought to you by Domino's Best deal ever. They wanted me to be a pizza gm. They wanted me to assemble my perfect pizza lineup. I could go up to seven toppings or I could do a five topping rotation. They wanted me to tie it in a basketball. Obviously this is right at my wheelhouse. Number one topping, extra cheese. Well done. That's Jokic. It's just you can throw it on any team, any situation. It's going to make the pizza better. Pepperoni is wemby mushroom sga. You know, just does the job. You're not going to be telling your grandkids about it, but it's put up 32 a night and then ham and pineapple. I'm putting those two together. That's Cade Cunningham and J and Duran the center. They kind of need each other. Same thing with the ham and pineapple. I don't want those things separately. I want them together. Well, here's the good news. I can get all of these for 9.99 with Domino's. Best deal ever. I could just throw all of those toppings on one pizza. Any topping plus the pizza for 9.99 with Domino's. Best deal ever. Price is higher in some locations. Select this online only offer from 2. 23 until 4. 6 size. Availability varies by crust type. Maximum 7 toppings. 6 for New York style and pan crust. Stuffed crust is extra. Excludes XL and specialty pizzas. Minimum purchase required for delivery. Prices, participation, delivery area and charges may vary. Sam, It's the Bill Simmons podcast, presented by FanDuel Sports Network and the Ringer Sports Network. Zach Lowe is here. I really screwed that up. It's a Ringer podcast network. For some reason I froze. I'm so excited to talk about Tatum. There's a lot to talk about since the last week when we got together and I was like, all signs are pointing to Tatum on Friday and it just feels like so many things have changed. The spurs feel like more juggernauty than ever. We were coming on right after they beat the hell out of the Rockets. The Celtics have just inserted themselves now for real into the contender conversation. The Lakers look more interesting without LeBron James, which is a fun little wrinkle. And the Pistons are looking a little gamey, a little teetery. Where do you want to start? Tatum.
- [02:47]
Zach Lowe
I'm sure you want to start Tatum so we can start Tatum. That it is the most exciting thing that happened in the last 72 hours.
- [02:54]
Bill Simmons
I would argue it's the most exciting thing that happened this season just cause when you go back to last May, and it was like, oh, man, we're not gonna see this guy for 18 months. And then you think the first week of the season, I remember going to. I saw a home game in the first 10 days and came away from the game thinking, they gotta blow it up. Like, this is ridiculous. Just trade Derrick White. Just start this over. Who are we kidding with this team? And the transformation over the next four months has been startling. And I mean, the craziest thing, there's the Tatum piece, which I want to talk about in a second. But then there's also the getting all these minutes and reps for all these dudes now that are now these trained dragons for a 10 or 11 man rotation. You saw Scheireman today was one of the key guys in the game who just wouldn't have played this year if Tatum had played the whole year. But Tatum coming back Friday was emotional, and it was emotional for him. I think he had a lot of trouble getting through it. I think it was his son sitting in the front row of the basket they're going against in the first half. And he just looked way more like himself today. But I didn't fully 100% believe until this driving righty layup bank shot that he made in the second half where he pushed off his bad. I want to call it the bad leg because it's leggy, surgically repaired leg, I guess. And it was just a vintage Tatum play going off the leg that everybody was like, he's got to be careful. He's just far further ahead of where I thought he was going to be. Is the same for you? Were you expecting 27 to 29 minutes in real intensity?
- [04:29]
Zach Lowe
I am legitimately shocked at how good he looks. And I realize he's 12 of 32, 6 of 16 in both games. The eye test is. I mean, I'm shocked. I'm absolutely blown away. He is. He looks really, really good already. And it's a little scary for teams who have been saying, like, well, if not now for the Knicks, when, you know, because Tatum's out and Halliburton's out and Lord's out and, well, even if Tatum comes back, he'll be a shell of himself. And I. I wasn't sure how much of, like, is he going to be. 60% of Tatum, 80% of Tatum. I don't know what percentage he's at now, but 50 minutes into this or whatever it is, he's so far ahead of where anyone could have reasonably expected him to be. It's, it's, it's legitimately shocking to me.
- [05:14]
Bill Simmons
He looks like Tatum. There's some stuff like, there's some very careful deep dive eye test Tatum stuff like, I think he's being careful jumping in traffic. Like for instance, like making sure when he's landing in a sea of legs. I'm sure that's in the back of his head. I thought it wasn't really until the second half that he seemed like he really wanted to. Like that righty layup I mentioned.
- [05:35]
Zach Lowe
Well, that, that layup, by the way, that's on Mobley on a switch getting. I believe we're talking about the same one where he gets by Evan Mobley going. Right, It's Evan Mobley. Like, he also had a spin in the post around Sam Merrill. They ran that White Tatum pick and roll a bunch to get switches. And he had like a quick baseline spin finish through Mobley. Like, that's just trademark Jason Tatum stuff that we're seeing 27 minutes in this game against Cleveland, a team that's been rolling. I know they didn't have Jared Allen, but.
- [06:05]
Bill Simmons
And the defense stuff too, where, when they had, when they had him out there with, with White and Jalen at the same time and there's their abilities to switch. And I thought his side to side stuff looked really good too. Look, going back to Friday night, my friend Hench came over because we vowed if he somehow came back that we're watching the first game together. So Tatum comes back, obviously it's emotional. Obviously he's gonna be a little nervous. Obviously a little rusty, can't make a shot. Crowd's starting to get tentative. The misdunk happens. We made my wife make cocktails. We're like, all right, this is now way more intense.
- [06:47]
Zach Lowe
Wow.
- [06:47]
Bill Simmons
And excruciating. So she had to make. She made me a vodka soda. She made hench of gin and tonic.
- [06:52]
Zach Lowe
I just want to, I just want to point out you had your wife. You didn't make cocktails.
- [06:56]
Bill Simmons
Hence, she made cocktails. She's a good bartender. Yeah. I want to take advantage. You know, it's like 4:30 on a Friday afternoon. So get the drinks. He finally gets that follow up rebound dunk, right? Huge release in the crowd. We're like, oh my God, he got one. Okay. Now and then within 20 seconds, hits the three. And the crowd just went ballistic. And I know a bunch of people who were there and they said it was a finals level crowd. The explosion of that 30 seconds to two plays in a row. People were just delirious and it really went from, uh, oh, is this gonna be a lot more awkward and weird and depressing than I was anticipating to, oh, my God, Tatum's back. Holy shit. And you could feel the ceiling kind of go up during that game. And then that this Cleveland game was. He just looked like Tatum.
- [07:46]
Zach Lowe
Well, I love the way he came out in the Dallas game. He was looking to pass the ball and there was a, there was a play in that game where he got the ball, nothing was going on. He got the ball on the right wing, nothing was happening. And you just thought, all right, he's going to get into his Tatum bag and ISO. And instead he whipped a pass to Derrick White and ran into a screen, like, ran, sprinted set. A screen slipped out of it. Like all. It's been the perfect mix of getting his stuff within the Celtic system and then being Tatum one on one against good matchups that are produced by switch. He's looked incredible. And that dunk, that missed dunk was nothing but encouraging to me because on the way there, first of all, it came off a catch, like an active catch. He came off, like caught the ball coming around the screen. And we're white to attack, so you're not doing all the heavy lifting on your own. We're going to give you a head start. And the change of direction and explosion toward the hoop were like jarring to me that he's already here and he didn't get the explosion quite up to Duncan.
- [08:41]
Bill Simmons
It seemed like he mistimed it from how far away from the hoop he was. Right. Which is just reps.
- [08:45]
Zach Lowe
But, but I like the explosion. The change of direction in the explosion on the way there was like, whoa, this guy is so far ahead. And by the way, to your point about, I mean, we, you and I were not concerned about the chemistry and like any of these things, we were like, this is going to be fine. Good players playing good basketball is good. Jaylen Brown today, I thought, had an awesome game.
- [09:04]
Bill Simmons
23 quarter especially.
- [09:06]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, 8 assists, 9 rebounds or 9 assists, 8 rebounds, I can't remember which. And just making every right play. And yeah, lo and behold, he's still going to put up huge numbers playing this way and play with Jason Tatum.
- [09:20]
Bill Simmons
You know, I like what you said about that first half of the Dallas game. The shots weren't going in, everything was short, whatever. But he was in the flow of the game, which was encouraging. Right. And I was wondering, people are asking a bunch of questions and you get the post game thing. Jason, how does it feel? What's it like to be out there? I'd love for somebody to ask him, do you feel like you gained anything from these four months just sitting on the bench watching basketball? Do you feel. Has anything slowed down for you? Has anything changed about how you think about when you're out there just from just being a spectator? Because I felt like he was a little more patient than maybe he was even at his peak. Just kind of not asserting himself too much and just kind of fitting in. But I might have been imagining it. What was cool about it, they had Shireman in that spot and Hauser and Hugo and Jordan Walsh. All these different swing. When he's out there, you just kind of forget certain things about Tatum. Like, oh, yeah, he can handle the ball. He's basically a point forward. Oh, now we have one more guy out there who can do that. The lineup that. I don't know what the plus minus stats were, but that lineup with him and Jalen, Pritchard, White and Keita, which we had last year, Kate is a different guy this year. Obviously Pritchard's up a level as a scorer. And I thought they had two stretches in the Cleveland game that I would be really scared of if I was a team in the east, because all they were doing was like, it was either Tatum or Brown in the corner. There was Keda setting picks for either the guards or one of the other forwards. And just a lot of movement and just things happening until they got the mismatch they wanted, which was usually Harden or it was Tatum on Mitchell. And just over and over again, they were just getting the right matchup and the right guy in space and these four elite Shock Raiders. And that was the first time I was like, holy shit, they might make the finals. Like, I wasn't even considering it until the second half of the Cleveland game.
- [11:16]
Zach Lowe
I mean, Kate is a real guy now and like a real screen role. Make plays into short role, like finish rebound defense. Like, you put a real guy who does all the center dirty work stuff around those four dudes on offense. That's a scary lineup. And so far the only, like, rotation casualty of Tatum's return is Walsh. Gonzalez is still getting minutes. Shireman's just good. Like, Charman's a good player on both ends of the floor. Yeah, they've looked awesome. And I just. Tatum, it's, you know, you can tell that you mentioned the not diving into traffic. They're. They're clearly going to get him up to speed slowly on defense. Like, they're going to give him easier Assignments that, so far, that's been the case. You're not going to guard Cooper. Flag. You're not going to guard Donovan Mitchell. We'll put you on Dean Wade, whatever. You can switch into those matchups. But it's just. It's shocking to me that he looks so much like Jason Tatum. Like, it's. It's. I keep saying it. It's shocking.
- [12:10]
Bill Simmons
The other thing is what a great sports story it is. And you could even see at the beginning when Harden came over and hugged him and Mitchell had him at the end of the game. And it's just like, you know, you have your livelihood taken away, and you have it taken away when you're at the peak of. Peak of your powers. Like, I was thinking back to that Knicks game, which I thought was one of the best games he ever played, the game he got hurt and the whole playoffs, athletically, it just felt like he was at the highest level he was ever. You could feel it as you were watching those games. You're like, oh, my God, this guy's just one of the great athletes, you know? And I don't know if it's ever gonna 100% come back to where he was, like, just from him flying around and challenging everything. And maybe it will. Maybe it'll just be reps. But even the stuff we saw today, like, coming 10 months after an injury like that, part of it's modern science. But also, I do think it's the age. You know, I think when you're in your 20s and you're in your prime like this, I think maybe it is more conceivable to come back. But I just thought he seemed so relieved, and I think they did something important keeping him with the team, which he's mentioned a couple times, traveling all over the place with them, and just staying in the fabric of it and staying with it so that it seemed kind of organic. Cause this could go one of two ways, right? The other way is the guy just disappears, works out on his own with his coaches. That wasn't like this at all. And I've been, you know, like every other Boston fan, I've been watching the Jaylen Jason stuff, making sure Jaylon handled it and said all the right things.
- [13:37]
Zach Lowe
You were alarmed at points. Pre returned. You were alarmed.
- [13:41]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. I thought Jalen was maybe two sentences short of just saying, like, I really miss my brother. We're just trying to hold the fort until he gets. I just thought he was, like, too light. But he made a point of saying that after the game, he did one of those twitch things and I just thought the way I didn't feel any dueling banjo stuff at all today, I thought everything was organic. It just felt like they've just felt like they're back and you're talking about one of the great unusual partnerships we've had this century. Just two guys playing together for this long is impossible. Like, we're going to talk about the Utah Jazz a little bit later. It's tough to keep a pairing together for five years in this day and age. You know, Westbrook and Durant were together eight years, right? Even Curry and Clay didn't make it. They made it to, what, 20, 23. But just in general, just having two guys do their thing together like this for a long period of time, it's unusual. The league's not designed for this to happen.
- [14:40]
Zach Lowe
I thought there was a little more dueling banjos today against Cleveland than against Dallas. And that was part because Cleveland was just switching everything and kind of making the Celtics go one on one. But like, when you have two players who are this good going one on one, you can have some dueling banjos. Like, that's going to be part of it. And as long as. As long as they have the mindset. And this is where Jalen has really leveled up this year of when I get into the paint and draw a bunch of traffic, like, I'm just going to make the simple play every time. If the simple play is me finishing because I've got a good angle or a height advantage or whatever, that's it. If the simple play is the kick to Hauser or Pritchard, like, he's a
- [15:14]
Bill Simmons
little dish Takeda, that's the other thing he loves to do.
- [15:17]
Zach Lowe
And even those, like there was a stretch even a month ago where some of those were getting a little reckless. Like he tried some around the back bounce passes. We were like, ooh, that kind of hit somebody's shin and somehow found its way through. He's cleaned that up, too. He's had a really, a really great season. Earlier you said, you know, someone should ask Tatum, what did you learn watching basketball? I would like to ask him, what did you learn about some of your teammates watching them? Because for all the change that the Celtics made over the summer to cut costs and move on to a new era, kind of and prepare for this season where Tatum was maybe going to play, maybe not. He does have a lot of built in continuity with all the core guys that are left on the team. He, like, that's part of the reason Why I think this was going to be seamless is he's just play even Pritchard, White Houser, like these are guys he's got a lot of built up reps with, but he also got to see them play in a different context. And I wonder if he just sort of like learned there's more breadth to their game or this guy can do a little bit more of this than I thought.
- [16:15]
Bill Simmons
And also Jalen, I, I just think is a better player than he was last year. And he was a great player. He was one of the best 25 guys in the league. But I like the point you were making about how he's making the right play. I just think he does that more consistently this year. Defensively, those three together, White, Jalen and Jason are just, it's going to be one of the best things, best threesomes defensively anybody has. Combined with Keita, you know, the, the other piece, there was some luck with this too. Like Horford leaving, I think ultimately was probably a pretty good thing, you know, because this team is a little built more rebounding and centers and offensive rebounding and stuff like that. It was not stuff Horford was really that good at or Porzingis. So the team's a little different. There's a couple things I think we know for sure now that I wasn't positive of, because from what I heard, Tatum's been playing five on five for a month. That's why he's so far ahead. And they've done a great job of
- [17:10]
Zach Lowe
keeping everything quiet, whatever they've done, starting from the moment the injury happened until now. And it helps them when the guy's 27 or whatever and not 34. Like needs to be studied by other teams because this is like crazy.
- [17:24]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. So he, he was playing, I think, more than we realized. And that's why I thought he was going to come back and be 20 minutes like he, they. The Shireman proxy theory was correct. Like they've moved him right into those minutes and he's 27 and 29. They want to build him up to the mid-high 30s by the end of the season. He's probably going to miss, I don't know, four games. So we learned, we learned that specifically the Simons trade makes a lot more sense now. It's basically a salary.
- [17:52]
Zach Lowe
It was always like this. Yeah, it was always like this.
- [17:53]
Bill Simmons
No, but I think if Vuch was good, it was a bonus. But I think they, the Simons trade was really more about Tatum's just going to take all of These minutes. And they kind of must have known this at the deadline. That was important. And then randomly Vuch breaks his finger. And I, I, I, I think they probably would have ended up with Garza and the Vucevic minutes anyway because I don't know how great of a fit he was. And he was the one piece that I just couldn't make sense with the group they have. So if you're talking about holes, Garza as your backup center, fine. How many teams is that going to really rear its ugly head against?
- [18:32]
Zach Lowe
I don't know.
- [18:33]
Bill Simmons
I think Tatum would have the ability to play small. It was interesting to watch the announcers and you know, I love Lego. So do you. Obviously it was interesting. I thought, I thought Cleveland went small for a while in the fourth quarter and I thought it was a bigger story that Mobley just wasn't out there.
- [18:49]
Zach Lowe
Tatum, Tatum coming off an Achilles tear has like less of a minutes restriction than guys who are coming off sprained ankles and like toe injuries. And it's like, it's remarkable.
- [19:01]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. So Mobley, so they went small against them. And I'm wondering, like down the road, will the Celtics respond by going small with Tatum, Brown, two guards and one of the wings. And the other thing I think to watch long term with the Celtics is will Houser be the guy that starts or would they move Hugo or Shireman into that spot as the fifth guy to try and move? Maybe move Hauser to the second thing. Couple other things really quick.
- [19:28]
Zach Lowe
Well, could we just stop on Vuch for a second? I just think he was. I agree. They're not going to like, Garza has been good, he makes threes, are not going to miss Vuch pretty much at all. Except I think they viewed Vuch as like Keita and Garza is like a pretty small center tandem. And the Knicks can go double big, the Cavs go double big. The Pistons are just this ferocious. We'll fight anybody. We're giant team. And I think they, I think that could be a matchup thing in the playoffs where, okay, we just need a bigger guy out here for 12 minutes, but hopefully he's ready by then.
- [20:06]
Bill Simmons
I think this might be the deepest Celtics team since the 08 team. Remember that 08 team when they added Cassell and PJ Brown near the end and they just had too many, almost too many guys and they had all these different lineups and wrinkles. Like the fact that Shireman, Hauser, Gonzalez, like these are real bench guys that any team in the league I think would want combined with The Walsh piece. Like, they probably go 11 deep for real now with Tatum, and I'll be interested to see how the minutes go. They can use these last 20 games basically to rest. Some guys, try some different things. On the Cleveland side, I did have one Mobley question for you because I thought that was a pretty big Cleveland game today, and I thought the halftime guys did a good job of properly excoriating them. Now, these, these afternoon weekend games, I just think are impossible to predict. You know, I watched Orlando, Minnesota yesterday, and Minnesota just didn't show up. And I've seen those get that over and over again. On a Saturday or Sunday, teams just kind of either don't show up or they were out the night before or whatever. It was weird that it took them an hour and a half to really be like, oh, shit, we're on national TV and this is kind of a big game. We should really step it up here. What have we peaked with? What we're getting from Mobley, in your opinion?
- [21:26]
Zach Lowe
No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't say. I mean, what is he, 24 years old? I would, I would be very hesitant to say that we've. We've peaked with Evan Mobley. Um, what's left is just what's left.
- [21:36]
Bill Simmons
What's the next. What's the jump for him? If you think there's going to be more there, what is it?
- [21:43]
Zach Lowe
I think it's all the stuff that we think might be in there, right? It's. It's a more consistent three point shot. It's a little bit more aggression, assertiveness on offense, you know, a little bit more with the ball against mismatches, running pick roles. Like, they just. And you hear that this is going to come every preseason. Like, oh, you should see this stuff.
- [21:59]
Bill Simmons
That's why I brought it up.
- [22:00]
Zach Lowe
And it, and it just sort of, you know, you see it in fits and starts and for a game, and then he's out this for a week and you don't see him. I think there's. He's still so young. That peaked is just way too strong of a word. But I think the question you're really asking is, like, what version of Evan Mobley do they need right now to get to the finals? For a team that just made a huge trade, that was clearly like a red flag of, oh, we need to get the finals, like, immediately. We cannot wait on Darius Garland. And we do. We have that version of Evan Mobley. And I don't. I will say I'm beginning to like the Cavs. Even more when they have the two bigs together. I feel like that's their. That has become their best look and we didn't see that. No, but I want to see, I want to see more of that.
- [22:45]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. That's why with this game, it was a great win for the Celtics. But I just feel like if you take out one of those four guys for the Cavs, it's a little more substantial than with some other teams because I don't think their 5 through 12 is really that impressive. The reason I brought it up with Mobley, his stats are basically the same for he's in year five. Basically that's been the same guy for the last four years. Like his field goal attempts set. Year two, he was 12 a game. Now he's 13. He shot 21% from three his second year. Now he's shooting 32%. His rebounds, he was nine in his second year he was 8.7 this year. His assists 2.8. Now it's 3.8 blocks. Around the same. Everything's kind of around the same. And I just feel like by your fifth year I wanted, I wanted to level up and I still think it's in there, but I also don't know like when he shoots a three, do you think it's going in?
- [23:47]
Zach Lowe
I don't feel awesome about it, but I don't feel bad about it. I just feel like it's a shot that the defense is willing to live with and it may always be a shot that the defense is willing to live with given the alternatives on the team that has Donovan, Mitchell and James Harden and whatever else. It is interesting that you know, with Allen out, he doesn't like Harden and Allen just had immediate pick and roll chemistry like pocket passes, lobs, whatever. And it just. This is not the first time this has been the case with Mobley and a ball handler. When Allen is cleared from the picture and he's the center and the pain is all his. For whatever reason, that does not come as easily with him and for him as it does for a more traditional rim runner like Allen. Like, I want to see just Rampage, man. Like put some shooting in there, let Harden loose and rampage. And it, it just isn't as easy. Like for Jared Allen, it was immediately like, oh, I'm just going to get 25 points every game now
- [24:43]
Bill Simmons
there's more there and I don't not sure what it is. The three point shot would have to get better. The ability to punish any sort of mismatch. I don't feel like he's totally there. Yet the defense is really, really good. It's not like I won't be telling my grandkids about it, but it's really, really good. And so I just wonder, two years from now, are we in the same spot? I think about this with certain guys in the league. Like, I look at Jabari Smith that way too, who's obviously, he's a year younger than Mobley, but when I watch him, because I like his game and I have a lot of Jabari Smith stock and sometimes I'm thinking, is this basically going to be it? We're going to be at like 16 and 7 and he'll hit some threes and he'll be able to guard different guys. And this is just what we're going to. This is where we're going to land. Is there going to be a jump? Will it have to be he gets traded to a bad team or is just just kind of the vicinity of where we're going to land? I don't know. We're going to take a break. I want to talk about Detroit and the spurs and the Rockets and the Lakers and the Knicks. That's coming next. So this episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by Sam's Club. It is that time of the year when you just gotta get in your car and go somewhere. I've done that plenty of times in my life. Nowhere gets you ready to go quite like Sam's Club. Snacks, the gear, super low prices on gas. They got a bunch of stuff that keep you and the whole crew rolling. And here's what you gotta do. You gotta join the club of yesn@samsclub.com yes. And you must be 18 years or older to purchase membership. And membership is subject to qualifications. Visit samsclub.com yesend for details. This episode is brought to you by Venmo. Supporting your team never gets old, but here's something new. You can now pay for your game day wings and rep your team at the same time. How? By getting your college colors on your card. Score more with the college branded Venmo debit card. Get up to 5% cash back with Venmo Stash. Sign up at venmo.com college card the Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank. NA Select Schools available Venmo slash bundle terms and exclusions apply@venmo.me/stash Terms Max $100 cash back per month. I forgot to mention at the top, it is CR month on the rewatchables. He's An American Hero. We did Sicario last week. We have Fargo coming on Monday. We have to Live and die in LA coming a week from Monday. And then we just had a vote for the fourth movie and it looks like the nice guys won the fourth movie with Ryan Gosling and Russell Crowe.
- [27:23]
Zach Lowe
Great movie.
- [27:24]
Bill Simmons
And then the last movie of the month will be LA Confidential. So stay tuned for that. You mentioned something when we went to break, say your Cleveland point really quick about what happens if it doesn't go great for them this, this spring.
- [27:37]
Zach Lowe
I, I just, I think they become a very interesting off season team and I think if, if, let's say they lose in the second round and it's just another second round loss for this iteration of the Cavs. We've already seen them trade Garland and you just mentioned Mobley and when is Mobley going to develop and the Giannis thing could be revisited. And I just, like, I, I'll be watching.
- [28:00]
Bill Simmons
It's a, it's a team blowup. Did they sign Harden to the extension or. No, not yet. Wasn't. I think Harden had one of those games where it's like, wait, is it mid May? Oh, no, it's the beginning of March.
- [28:13]
Zach Lowe
You're burying honeymoon Harden. Is honeymoon Harden over?
- [28:15]
Bill Simmons
Is the honeymoon honeymoon Harden might have. Yeah, this might have been. I left my purse at the hotel bar and now it's gone. We got to find it. The honeymoon's in shambles. Detroit lost today. They're 6 and 5 in their last 11. They are 45, 18. The Celtics are now two wins in the loss column behind them, 9 and 2 in their last 11. The Brooklyn loss, which I did not watch then, did not have Cade Cunningham in and blew a big lead near the end. You know, that's fine. The loss today was a little different because they got their asses kicked by Miami. And we'll talk about Miami in a second, too. Detroit hanging on a little bit. And then you watch some of these other teams in the east that have two, three, four guys who can create a shot and Detroit still, like we say every week, has the one guy who can create offense. And then just a lot of good cutting, a lot of good cuts and, and, and some low post play, but not a lot of guys who can create shots. And it's just the Herder trade. I just don't understand their trade deadline. I understand that we said this in the trade deadline pile when we had it. I understand being afraid to mess with the chemistry. But I also think they needed a freelance wing guard somebody and they didn't get it. Herder's really not playing and I just feel like they're a creator short. So what do you see?
- [29:36]
Zach Lowe
I think this has been the concern all season and why none of us have been ready to crown them east champions like we would normally crown a team that was so that was like six games ahead. It's seemingly a blink of an eye ago. It's because you know that the offense is going to get harder to come by in the playoffs when you play two non shooters at almost all the time, sometimes three and you're really, really dependent on an all world player. But he's just one player and you have all these little subsets. Right. Like Duncan Robinson flying around is kind of like a creator even though he doesn't dribble because he creates openings and gaps and attention comes to him. And Jalen Duran can face up. I don't love these Jalen Duran jump shots that are starting to happen now because I think that's like we gotta.
- [30:16]
Bill Simmons
Maybe it's a little 1995ish, maybe another
- [30:19]
Zach Lowe
offseason of working on that before you start busting that out in games. And I love J.D. it's like a little bit of this and the offensive rebounding is part of it. But all that stuff is harder to do in the playoffs when everyone is geared up on defense on every possession. And this has been the concern all year. I'm not going to panic. It's a late season, you know, slide one game without Cade team had a huge lead. Everyone is coming back from suspension one by one. Like beef stew just got back. I agree with you. Like we all had big dreams for the Pistons trade deadline all season, right? Like it started with marketing, like that's the perfect fit. And then it was clear Utah was just not going to trademark it in because he's just going to I guess be a Jazz lifer and just maybe one day make the playoffs. For the first time ever, we took
- [31:03]
Bill Simmons
a Trey Murphy spin around the parking lot. That, that didn't bite.
- [31:08]
Zach Lowe
It doesn't. I never really heard Detroit being aggressive. And they settle on this, you know, Ivy Herder basically exchange of those two guys. There's a pick swap here and there. And JB Bicker. Maybe they should have asked JB Bickerstaff first. Like hey, are you going to play Kevin Herder if we get him? Cause we might trade for Kevin Herder. And yeah, like he's been a break in case of emergency guy and he's the kind of Player that could help them wouldn't change their life. I think we all knew that. But yeah, I mean, look, this four team race in the east, and you want to throw Charlotte in and make it five, go. Go ahead and do it because can
- [31:43]
Bill Simmons
we throw in the zombie heat?
- [31:44]
Zach Lowe
Zombie heat. Five straight wins. Maybe the heat just heat around and they. They heat their way in one way or another.
- [31:52]
Bill Simmons
So I sp. As you know, I'm always terrified of the heat. I'd written them off this season. I saw them in person last month when I was back for Koozie's thing at Holy Cross and the Celtics came back from a big deficit. Beat them. Khalil. Khalil Ware looked like he was just a Section 8 for the season. He came in for two small stints in the game. It was just a catastrophe. And it was like, wow, it's gotten this bad. Like it was one of those, um, this last five games. It wasn't just how winning the five. I watched that Rockets game. That's when I got scared.
- [32:28]
Zach Lowe
Um, that was a good win for them.
- [32:30]
Bill Simmons
What they did.
- [32:31]
Zach Lowe
Charlotte win.
- [32:32]
Bill Simmons
What they did to Charlotte on Friday night was notable. And I want to talk about that in a second. But then the one today too. Just taking it to Detroit Heroes. Just back hero's. Like, I'm actually offended that you guys forgot. I was good at basketball and I was being thrown around in these trade deadline shit. Like, I'm good. Bam, I think has gotten better offensively as the season went along. There was some pretty shaky Bam stats, but he's basically been a 2210 guy for two months. Powell's out right now. Powell isn't even playing. So when he comes back, just thinking about them. In a playoff series where you have these two heat check guys, you have Bam, who's steady, you have a defensive identity, you have a good coach, you have a couple weird bench guys and wings, and you only have to go four and three to advance in a playoff series. I looked this up.
- [33:18]
Zach Lowe
It's true, it's accurate.
- [33:19]
Bill Simmons
You only go 4 and 3. You can have three shitty losses and still win the series. And I just don't want to see them in a series and that somehow they've been resuscitated. Zach Lowe and I. I'm. I'm just horrified.
- [33:32]
Zach Lowe
I. I'm. I'm already looking at a 27 Boston Miami series.
- [33:36]
Bill Simmons
Maybe you can look at it right now because that would be the matchup
- [33:39]
Zach Lowe
if we had it.
- [33:39]
Bill Simmons
Right now, it's Boston.
- [33:40]
Zach Lowe
Well, they got to get through the play in. They got to heat their way through the play in. Although, you know, six is quite interesting. Now Orlando is six. Philly has dropped to eighth after a nightmare weekend where Maxi gets hurt. Now it sounds like he's not gonna be out for a long time, but Embiid is still out with this oblique thing. And so that is flipped almost completely. The Hawks have won six in a row. Don't, don't look at the. Don't, don't forget about the Hawks.
- [34:01]
Bill Simmons
But Jaylen Johnson's played himself into like legit all NBA consideration too. I think he's there.
- [34:07]
Zach Lowe
I had him on my rough draft like two weeks ago. Third team, all NBA. And was. People were kind of stunned. I was like, I don't know. I think he's been pretty good and Kaminga's been good for them. I'm not, I wouldn't take like the all victory lap on Kaminga quite yet, but he's been very good for them and definitely more productive than Porzingis, who finally, Matt Ish.
- [34:23]
Bill Simmons
Be a premature ejaculation. Victory lap.
- [34:26]
Zach Lowe
Yeah.
- [34:26]
Bill Simmons
Hey, Matt, keep it in your pants. All right. Well, you're a seven seed. Like settle down. The moment he did that, everybody in the team got hurt.
- [34:34]
Zach Lowe
Yeah. The Dylan Brooks who bluff took a little bit of a hit this weekend.
- [34:37]
Bill Simmons
Maybe take the victory lap after the season.
- [34:39]
Zach Lowe
Well, the, the bam. Where stuff has started to work and work big time. That combination in the last three to four weeks has really changed their team. And like Jaime, I haven't done a detailed six man of the earth dive in maybe a month. But I think, you know, he, Keldon Johnson, Nas Reed, there's a bunch of good candidates. He's just been consistently outstanding and teams just can't keep him out of his comfort zones. He spins and drives his way into these little eight foot flip shots. He seems to make all of them. And he was a huge difference maker in that win at Charlotte on Friday.
- [35:11]
Bill Simmons
Charlotte's playing right now and they're tied heading into halftime in Phoenix, ironically. But so I watched that Friday game because they were going head to head with the Tatum game. So I had on the smaller tv. I was monitoring it.
- [35:23]
Zach Lowe
You don't have to say that you watch a Hornets game. We all assume that you are watching every Hornets game. Parents watch their children, legitimate or not.
- [35:31]
Bill Simmons
It's the thing. It's like when I would have Zoe's soccer games on one of the side TVs. Charlotte played well. They had 120 points. Good game offensively. They kept doing stuff. But they couldn't stop Miami. And I thought it was interesting. It was a little cold water being thrown on the watch out for Charlotte. That could be this year's Indiana bandwagon that I think I was on with three other people.
- [35:59]
Zach Lowe
That bandwagon is, yeah, we didn't even have wheels.
- [36:01]
Bill Simmons
We were just like, we were basically building the foundation of it. But they had nobody in the team that could stop Hero. And I think if you're going into a playoff series, their issue is going to be stopping those Hero, Pritchard, these crafty guards, these crafty Heat Check guys. They just don't have anyone like their five, their best five. Everything's good except for that one wrinkle. Donovan Mitchell I think would be a real problem for them. And that was my lesson from that. Cause they got 120 and they still lost. Miami's gonna be heard from. And I think we can officially say the east is better than the West.
- [36:37]
Zach Lowe
About that, we might be able to say it. I mean, you know, certainly the bottom five of the west is not covering itself in glory.
- [36:47]
Bill Simmons
No.
- [36:48]
Zach Lowe
Nor is the bottom four in the east, however. But it's a conversation now for sure.
- [36:54]
Bill Simmons
Well, we were about to have four legitimate east contenders, all with various cases going on. Cleveland took a hit today and the Knicks were the other one. The Knicks, who I've been hesitant to trust because every time I'm about to buy in. And then they had a couple of good games. I even thought, I thought that OKC loss they had was the best Knicks game I've seen.
- [37:15]
Zach Lowe
That was a good loss.
- [37:16]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, that was like, oh yeah, that this could be a finals. And then they just get waxed today against the non LeBron Lakers. They had, there was some good stats with them. We have the number one defense, last 20 games, all this stuff and, and they just, they just got smoked. And they kind of looked like the bad version of the, of the Knicks. This little Jekyll and Hyde thing they have going. What did you see any of that game? What'd you say?
- [37:41]
Zach Lowe
I've seen pieces of it. I'm going to go back and watch the, the whole thing tomorrow. But I, I saw a team that has been, you know, that the Lakers played really well in that game. I mean that's the first thing the Lakers said. It was a good Lakers game, really was. The Knicks, you know, they've, their losses tend to be loud. Like the two Detroit losses, the Cleveland loss, the Laker loss today, losing by 13. McKilburn just puts up zero. And you know The Knicks are. I was texting with a friend of mine who's a huge Knicks fan, and he was just over the moon after the Denver game and just, I'm all in on the team. And that was. That was as good of a road win as you can have in the NBA, just taking it to the Nuggets like that. And I picked the Knicks to make the Finals. I haven't been convinced to pick anyone else over them in a complete way yet, but I texted him back. I was like, they seem to. No matter what kind of run they're on, you're always like one weird cat game or one weird bridges game away from being like, ooh, something is. It's just a strange, strange brew that way.
- [38:48]
Bill Simmons
I agree.
- [38:50]
Zach Lowe
I.
- [38:50]
Bill Simmons
There's a. There's a number four seed subplot with the east that I think is worth mentioning, where you could be in the 2, 3, and know that you're going to not only probably play Miami, I think Miami's going to get to the sixth seed. So you two, three. If you're the three, you play Miami in round one, and then you play the two seed in round two and you're on the road. Or you could just drop down to four. You could play Toronto in round one and then take your chances with Detroit. And to me, that's the more palatable path. I don't know how you feel about it, but that 2, 3 feels a little quagmire to me.
- [39:23]
Zach Lowe
Interesting. Yeah. You know, look, Toronto is only a game ahead of Orlando and Miami now in the fifth spot. So, you know, let's. Right, let's.
- [39:31]
Bill Simmons
So that could even swing even more.
- [39:33]
Zach Lowe
Right? That was another. And they can't beat anyone. Good. I mean, that was another great win for the Knicks. They went to Toronto and blew them out, and Toronto just can't beat any of the good teams in the NBA. So to backing up your point that if you can park your way into a matchup against them, maybe that is a little less terrifying than seeing SPO stride up and down the sidelines and, like, what kind of zone can we throw at these guys? Triangle. And 2. Should we bust that out? It blow their minds. That's. That's the Heat, man.
- [39:58]
Bill Simmons
And then the lakers really quick, nine and two without LeBron, which is a record that will be brought up over and over again over the next 12 to 18 hours as the talk shows kick in. You know.
- [40:10]
Zach Lowe
You know, it never had a record like that when they were injured. Michael Jordan, Bill. That never happened to Michael Jordan. Okay?
- [40:17]
Bill Simmons
Michael Jordan. I just like when it's Luka and Reeves, like, just remove LeBron out of it. I think that's the foundation of a really good team. Because you could build the right team around those two guys. You know who else they're going to be your worst defenders.
- [40:30]
Zach Lowe
You know who else thinks that? The Lakers.
- [40:32]
Bill Simmons
I know, I know. And I think they, like, kind of together. Yeah, they like playing together. So you can see the vision. I don't know why they didn't start the vision in February. And this is just a really weird situation for LeBron. Cause he's still. It's not like he's washed up, but this has been a weird fit for him. The whole season we've known it. You can watch it. You can see it with your own eyes. And I don't know where he ends up next year, but it's just. I find it hard to believe it's going to be the Lakers. I still think it's going to be Golden State.
- [41:03]
Zach Lowe
I find it hard to believe it's going to be the Lakers. But as you've pointed out, I kind of find every scenario a little hard to believe.
- [41:10]
Bill Simmons
Golden State needs them. I think Golden State would be the team.
- [41:13]
Zach Lowe
I mean, Golden State needs something. Because this has been a hell of a depressing season for the Warriors. I mean, they still play hard, and they play a fun style of play when Steph's there. But this is not going to be the most fun stretch run in warriors history.
- [41:25]
Bill Simmons
There's been some good warriors news. I bought a small condo on Guy Santos Archipelago.
- [41:31]
Zach Lowe
Guy Gulch.
- [41:33]
Bill Simmons
I bought a property on Desanto Straits.
- [41:40]
Zach Lowe
So did they just paid him?
- [41:41]
Bill Simmons
They did. They paid him a good. What was it, five a year for three years?
- [41:45]
Zach Lowe
He's a solid player. He's a very, very Steve Kerr player. Like, it's like. It's like just central casting. Steve Kerr player.
- [41:53]
Bill Simmons
We gotta talk about the spurs, too, because they had an awesome weekend. They came back from 25 against the Clippers. I was watching a movie with my wife. I had the TV on the small screen. Never turned it off, even when it was like 75 to 50.
- [42:06]
Zach Lowe
Hold on. What movie?
- [42:08]
Bill Simmons
I don't want to say. Okay, it wasn't a movie. It was this TV show called Vladimir.
- [42:16]
Zach Lowe
I'm unfamiliar. Clearly you're not that invested in it. If you have half on Wemby over
- [42:21]
Bill Simmons
here, it's with Rachel Weiss. If she's a professor. It's a Netflix show. It's basically my wife. It's. Her algorithm is just like, they put the show on Netflix. And then her algorithm, there's a hammer that actually comes out of the TV and hits her with it. Cause it's so, like, in her wheelhouse, according to the algorithm. Like, you will watch this now. So that was on, and we were also watching this spurs game. I mean, Spurs, Clippers. So Niederhauser, who I was just touting to you a week ago, such a bummer. And the fear with Niederhauser is like, this guy's a maniac. He tries to block everything. He's gonna get hurt. And of course he gets hurt trying to make some crazy block out for the year. And you could really feel it in that spurs game because you can only ride the Brook Lopez Express for so long. Great comeback for the Spurs. I have no idea why Wemby cried at the end of the year.
- [43:07]
Zach Lowe
As you said, did you win?
- [43:08]
Bill Simmons
That's dumbfounding.
- [43:09]
Zach Lowe
Did you weep or did Vladimir make you weep? Was there anything.
- [43:12]
Bill Simmons
I would have only wept if I had the Clippers in a parlay, but. So they had a big comeback win on national tv and then they really thrashed the Rockets today and looks scary. And we've talked about, is it too soon? We've had all the spurs conversations you could possibly have at this point. I got to talk about Dylan Harper a little bit.
- [43:32]
Zach Lowe
Oh, my God.
- [43:33]
Bill Simmons
Who I've liked the whole year. I haven't seen a rookie guard like this in a long time. And I'm having trouble fitting him in the context of rookie guards we've seen since we've watched basketball. He can't really shoot right. He's not if it's an open three. I don't think it's going in three of four today. He's got this crazy. This combination. Like, he's really nice along the baseline. He likes to have his back on guys. So I guess the comparison. Maybe it would be a little Jason Kidd, like, very comfortable with a little space near the low block with his back to a guy ready to go either way gets to the rim. There's crazy rim stats with him. Like, it's basically him and centers and, you know, big forwards with, like, finishing at the rim. And I don't know where we're going, but I don't know if there's much of a ceiling for this, because when he learns how to shoot, when he gets a floater combined with the back to the basket, with the way he uses his body and bounces off dudes and how hard he plays, I'm starting to wonder if there's some Jason Kidd kind of potential, even though they're different players.
- [44:51]
Zach Lowe
62 combined points for Fox, Castle and Harper today. Throw in another 20 for Keldon Johnson before you even get to Wembanyama. I mean, the depth of scoring and rim attacking they have is crazy. And what I love, I mean, I could not love Harper and Castle anymore. I mean, and aside from all the highlight plays that Castle delivers, all the sort of classic attacking guard stuff that Harper has, they're just so tough and so competitive and they want, they want to outwork you and out physical you. And I can't remember how this possession ended up, but there was one possession in that game somebody on the spurs missed and Harper had Finney Smith on him on the left side and was just like, I'm getting this fucking rebound. You're not stopping me from getting this offensive rebound. He ended up tipping it out to somebody and I think someone made a three and it's just like those are the plays from a rookie guard. A tap out offensive rebound for Castle, a second year guard. Yeah, give me Kevin Durant. Like I'll, I'll do my best to guard him. And then, you know, you saw today the Rockets put their shen goon on him to start the game and had him on, on Castle for much of the game. Which is a strategy that I've been saying all year. I think the spurs are going to see at some point. They saw it today and it didn't work because Castle figured it out. But those are the kind of plays that they make at such a young age. And they're just winning. They're winning basketball plays. They evince a competitiveness and a toughness that rookie guards who want to score and make a name for themselves, like, you don't see plays like that. Like this team is so together. They play so unselfishly. They have sequences of ball movement. For a young team where you're like a team this young shouldn't be able to like just pim bim, boom, boom, boom. The ball's flying around. It's really impressive and those two guys are awesome.
- [46:38]
Bill Simmons
I'm glad you brought that up because one of my takeaways watching today was they play like they've been playing together for a few years, which I think is the rarest place you can get to as a team. Like they really like understand each other and where, where the next guy's going to be and how to use each other and how to play. Even that play they ran at the end of the half when they got Wemby that three, it was just. They're very well prepared. Some of the credit's got to go to the coach. And then everybody plays hard, which is the other thing. And it's very similar to the Celtics and the Pistons, where it's like, you're not playing if you don't play hard. The thing with Harper, usually when rookie guards that are super talented come in, they have their things they can do right and they're like, I can do this. I can really get to the rim. I'm a really good shooter. They'll have these skills that they can kind of dwell on, but they're not basketball players yet. And I think what's was just so bizarre about him is like, what a good, like, team basketball player he is. Which is why I brought up the kid thing. Like, he's just really smart. I didn't watch enough of that Rutgers team last year who. It sucked. It was him and Ace Bailey and nobody else. It's amazing to me he could ever be on a bad basketball team because he knows where to go, what to do, how to play off guys. I'm just really excited for him. And then big picture, you think, like for the league, this is a disaster that they ended up with, with Castle and, and, and. And Harper with Wemby. And these guys are all 24, 23 and under.
- [48:06]
Zach Lowe
And they have. They're 47 and 17 now. And WEMBY.
- [48:12]
Bill Simmons
I mean, this team could win the title, like, for real. I don't. I didn't mean. That's not even a hot take anymore. This is one of. I would say probably the number two pick. You would have to win the title this play.
- [48:23]
Zach Lowe
Christmas is what finally, not finally Christmas was when I said they can win the championship and. And nothing has changed. In fact, it's just gotten clear to me that despite the experience factor and they would be somewhat anomalous among championship teams, they have enough and they have a guy who's.
- [48:38]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I don't care anymore.
- [48:39]
Zach Lowe
He's a top five guy. And today was like, you know, you mentioned how the spurs play unselfishly, super competitive, super hard. It they. They drafted a bunch of guys who play that way. But when your best player is unselfish and Wembanyama's unselfish, one of my favorite things about him and plays super hard. No one else has any choice but to play unselfishly and super hard, especially when you start winning. And today I know we're going to talk MVP a little bit. And there's just so much uncertainty about who's going to be eligible and who's going to be not going to be eligible. But today was like, Wemby should be in the conversation. I think Shai still has a clear lead and a clear case, but if he's not eligible, Wemby has as good of a case, minus the minutes. He's a little behind at minutes, but you just feel him every single second on the floor. And the defensive dominance is just unheard of. What he's doing on defense, his odds
- [49:34]
Bill Simmons
during that game dropped from 20 to 1 to 15 to 1 on FanDuel.
- [49:37]
Zach Lowe
That was an MVP. That was an MVP performance tonight.
- [49:40]
Bill Simmons
He has. He's in the fourth. He's in the third spot now he's past Cade Y is 9 to 1 and Shea is 4 to 1. Look, I don't know if this is the 90 Bulls or the 91 Bulls, but we're in that vicinity with this team where you have a potential generational star and you have a loaded young cast. And the only question is, when is this all going to come together? That's where we are now with this team. And I went back and I looked at the 90 Bulls. They were 55 and 27. They lost to Detroit in seven. That was the Pippin migraine game. Jordan was probably, you know, he's. Jordan, he's the best player ever, but he was a little older than Wemby. He'd been a couple years in college, and he'd been in the league for six years at that point. So he's probably a little further ahead than Wemby was. But it's the same thing. It's like these guys that you. When you're watching a basketball game like that, you could bring in my mom, you could bring in your wife, you could bring in your daughter, you could bring in my. You could bring in anybody and be like, does this guy seem a little different than everyone else in the game? And the answer is, yes, he does. He's doing all of these things I don't watch other players do. Combined with the identity they have and what they did to Durant today, I thought was just a sign that you're a really well coached together team, right? They're like, we're just. We're gonna do these three things to make it really hard for him. We're gonna have Keldon Johnson mugging him. We're gonna pick up the ball with him at half court. We're just gonna make it really uncomfortable for him the entire game. And they did it, and that was one of the reasons they won't. So I think about them versus okc. If Jalen Williams doesn't really become Jalen Williams again in the playoffs, could they take out Shay?
- [51:22]
Zach Lowe
No.
- [51:24]
Bill Simmons
Could they make it really hard for him and make other guys in that team basically have to make plays or they're going home?
- [51:30]
Zach Lowe
Yes. Well, we've seen that. I mean, we've seen and we've seen it. They're four and one against him. And today the Wemby.
- [51:36]
Bill Simmons
I don't know, playoffs is different, though.
- [51:38]
Zach Lowe
But I don't know. Today, the thing that stood out to me about Wemby against the Rockets was you see some games like this in some games where he doesn't do it. I don't know if it's a. He was fresher in these games or he just likes the matchup better or whatever it is. Today he did the thing where he just. When he got. When he faced up off the dribble, he. He did the thing where I'm taking an extra step to the basket, to the point where I can just reach my arm out and at the basket, he had one on Amen Thompson like that. He had another one against somebody else. And when he does that, you wonder, why doesn't he do that every time? And there's just something about that night, that matchup. But today he had a clear directive in his mind of like, I'm taking the extra step or half step off the bounce to the. And just reaching my way to easy buckets. And when he has those kind of baskets, that's when you feel helpless. That's when you feel like there's just nothing we can do.
- [52:29]
Bill Simmons
You know, I remember saying this early on in the Wemby experience that I didn't like. How, first of all, playing him as a guard, I've always. I never liked. I understand they had to go through the process of it, but it was like, the question with him will be, when does he realize that the closer he is to the rim, the more devastating he's gonna be? And it seems like he's realizing that in real time. To your point, like, hey, I'm 7 foot 4 and I have long arms, and if I'm 3ft from the basket, odds are something good's gonna happen. He's just, you know. And then you talk about the defense. The Celtics play them on Tuesday. And I look at somebody like Pritchard, who was doing his thing this year, this Cleveland game, right? All that Herky jerky low post up. Faked up. Just maybe stick to threes for this wimby game. Pritchard Reed.
- [53:16]
Zach Lowe
Shepherd made a couple over him in the lane today. It's.
- [53:18]
Bill Simmons
Man, it's high risk. Castle over Shepherd. Shepard's been good the last month. I think. I, I, it's not like he's a bust or anything. But that's interesting. I wonder if they would redo that one. The Rockets, because they took shepherd third. Castle went fourth. I mean I would redo it. I like shepherd, but come on.
- [53:36]
Zach Lowe
I bet that, I bet they would say no. I think they were just, they were.
- [53:40]
Bill Simmons
What about after three drinks?
- [53:42]
Zach Lowe
They would, they would crack a little bit. They. You'd start to hear anecdotes that you didn't hear before. But they, they were all, I mean, they were all.
- [53:49]
Bill Simmons
What about after we do fireball shots? Then it's good.
- [53:55]
Zach Lowe
How many drinks are you going to serve them? My God, you crack.
- [54:00]
Bill Simmons
A few readers have suggested to me that KD's nickname should be the Burner.
- [54:09]
Zach Lowe
I mean it works on multiple levels.
- [54:13]
Bill Simmons
35 for the burner.
- [54:14]
Zach Lowe
You guys had a whole KD nickname discussion which I really enjoyed about how he just, he unilaterally was like that awesome nickname. I don't like Easy Money Snipers Better not. Slim Reaper, like Slim Reaper was just minted. It's so good. And he just didn't like it.
- [54:32]
Bill Simmons
The Burner.
- [54:34]
Zach Lowe
I actually thought today. I'm a little bit surprised that road crowds haven't found a creative way to throw this in his face a little bit. I don't know if it's going to take the wall.
- [54:46]
Bill Simmons
We're not allowed to do that anymore. You don't allow it to be mean.
- [54:50]
Zach Lowe
Everybody know. The fans all know now and I feel like I'm a little surprised that it just hasn't come up the wall. I bet if they play at the Clippers, I bet the fanatics who sit in the wall will do something.
- [55:01]
Bill Simmons
I got an email. I'm trying to find it and I can't find it. Just because I was asking about the best nicknames of all time and the guy said the best nickname of all time is Magic Johnson. People literally think it's his name. That's the last stage of a nickname when nobody even really, they forget you have a real name. And I think that's a really good point. Magic Johnson. It's such a good nickname that he had other nicknames, right? I think some people called him Buck. He was like the nickname for them when you have the second nickname because your first nickname people think is your actual name. It's the final level nickname. Your little one grew three inches overnight. Adorable. Also expensive. Sell their pint sized pieces on Depop and list them in minutes with no selling fees because somewhere a dad refuses to pay full price for the clothes his kids will outgrow tomorrow and he's ready to buy your son's entire wardrobe right now. Consider your future growth Bird budget secured. Start selling on depop where taste recognizes taste. Payment processing fees and boosting fees still apply. See website for details. Playoff matchups Detroit vs Philly Atlanta or Charlotte Boston vs Miami New England ver New York vs Orlando Cleveland vs Toronto in the east and in the west OKC vs bizarre Golden State Clippers Portland none of none of us are that excited to even have this series. I wonder, I wonder if you offered any of those teams you could have the 10th pick or play in round one what they would take.
- [56:35]
Zach Lowe
A bunch of them are digging the 10th pick.
- [56:37]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, that's what I think too. San Antonio, Phoenix, which we're going to have to fix that series somehow. Minnesota versus The Lakers, which would be a mismatch and then Houston versus Denver would be our four matchups. We need some work with that. I would personally like to see okc, Phoenix and San Antonio in the one seed would be more fun.
- [56:59]
Zach Lowe
What is your I don't remember if they're playing tonight. What is your current Denver concern level after Aaron Gordon came back and they got thrashed by the Knicks at home?
- [57:11]
Bill Simmons
Here's where I'm at. Murray turned his ankle so Jokic looked better this weekend. That was a bonus. Murray did get hurt. I am now in the hey, Denver just fall to six and get everybody healthy the last 20 games. Don't even but are you still be careful.
- [57:33]
Zach Lowe
Do you still have faith in the Denver fully healthy? Is it juggernaut or are you starting to wobble on like well we just haven't seen a lot of Cam Johnson
- [57:43]
Bill Simmons
and like oh, I'm wobbling. I wrote down in my I had a quickie thought section I was going to do with you and one of them is Denver possible year from mini hell. Not year from hell. It's a year from mini hell. It's like they can't have a week without something happening. Right?
- [57:56]
Zach Lowe
I call it it's not our year year.
- [57:59]
Bill Simmons
That's fair.
- [58:01]
Zach Lowe
I don't know if they're having it but they seem to be having a year. If you had it it would look a lot like this.
- [58:07]
Bill Simmons
Remember There was a couple kg Celtics years where they were like 25 and 25 in their last 50. And then all of a sudden they would be in the eastern finals. You'd be like, how did I ever doubt them? If I were them, I wouldn't care about where I landed in this 3456. Just like whatever. I don't think. Let's get everybody healthy. Yeah, let's get everyone healthy. I have a new gimmick for you that I did not prepare you for. Completely unprepared stock draft. Okay, Buy stock and two guys right now.
- [58:38]
Zach Lowe
Okay.
- [58:39]
Bill Simmons
I can start if you want.
- [58:40]
Zach Lowe
Wait, I'm just anybody in the entire NBA.
- [58:43]
Bill Simmons
Just guys you've been looking at not necessarily putting real estate on their island, but just you're buying some stock.
- [58:49]
Zach Lowe
So I'm not buying Jokic stock. We're searching for buy low, under the low.
- [58:53]
Bill Simmons
You're buying 2015 Jokic stock. Okay, 2016. Money to come in the week.
- [58:59]
Zach Lowe
Can you go first?
- [59:00]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I'll go first. I'd like to put a little down. I'm going to call my guy Carter Bryan. I'd like to put some stuff down on him.
- [59:09]
Zach Lowe
You're making me angry with that one.
- [59:13]
Bill Simmons
He's really the only reason I wanted to have the stock draft Friday and Sunday. The crowd's cheering for him now like they're changing his name, which is a good sign. But I like that he's one of those quiet assassin, just killer swing guys. He probably is not going to get into it once with anybody. He just. If you knock him down, he'll just get up. He's like a Michael Myers and he's bigger than you think he is. It seems like he can guard basically everybody in the league. He hits threes, he's athletic and they got him at the 14th pick. It was a great draft pick and he's going to be in that team for a while.
- [59:48]
Zach Lowe
It's a great, it's a great putting
- [59:50]
Bill Simmons
down a little on him.
- [59:51]
Zach Lowe
Slam dunk. Runner up. I believe so. His, his playoff viability. Clearly they are trying to make him playoff ready now and, and when he was not playing much in the regular season. He's an every game player now because defensively he's a plus. He's ready for the playoffs. He's ready for the highest level stuff. It's just going to be about his offensive readiness and not even just about his threes shooting 33%. It's a little hit or miss. He had a couple like plays today where you could see A little tentativeness in him when he, they. They put Houston, put centers on him and kind of dared him to beat him and attack him. And he had a couple of plays in traffic where he's like, I don't know. I'm going to pivot around here. And like, that's the kind of stuff that in the playoffs you can get a quick hook if you're a young player, rookie, untested like that. All right. Should I make a pick?
- [60:37]
Bill Simmons
You can do one. Yeah. We can only do one if you want. Cause I. Niederhauser was my other one.
- [60:42]
Zach Lowe
Who was your other one?
- [60:44]
Bill Simmons
I still have Naderhauser stock. I don't care that he gets hurt.
- [60:46]
Zach Lowe
I love that guy. You should hold that stock.
- [60:48]
Bill Simmons
That's all. I'm going to hold it.
- [60:48]
Zach Lowe
Yeah.
- [60:49]
Bill Simmons
I didn't panic.
- [60:49]
Zach Lowe
I'm going to. I'm just going to. I mean, again, no preparation. I'm assuming Alex Saar is too, Too high profile for this. We want.
- [60:57]
Bill Simmons
No, it's just the stock's higher, but you can still buy it.
- [61:00]
Zach Lowe
I'm going to buy some Alex Sar stock and I'm going to. I'm going to sneak in right now to the Malawatch stock market in Phoenix. I'm going to buy a little. The model watch Marina. I'm going to play my flag in there and then just. It's got. Mark Williams is hurt and I think he's going to get some run and he blocked four shots the other night and I'm just going to. I'm going to buy now.
- [61:21]
Bill Simmons
Interesting. Yeah, because I was wondering what happened to him because House really liked him.
- [61:25]
Zach Lowe
He's been dominating the G. He's been like Goliath in the G League for whatever that's worth.
- [61:31]
Bill Simmons
Okay, Noah Penda.
- [61:33]
Zach Lowe
Can I buy some Noah Penda stock? Noah Penny Penda stock?
- [61:37]
Bill Simmons
You definitely could if you wanted to. This is a guy that I've had stock for a while, from way back, sold it, did really well. I think it's low right now. People aren't seeing it like a little Robert Williams the third. I know he's older, but for this summer, I think this could be one of those. Robert Williams just signed for three years for 50 million. What happened? I think there's going to be another, another. Another cycle for him. As a guy that good teams talk themselves into, as a playoff guy, three years, 50.
- [62:14]
Zach Lowe
I don't see it. I don't see it.
- [62:16]
Bill Simmons
He's just not a really stupid contract that you'd be surprised by. I mean, Jakob Pertle did get a crazy extension that I didn't, and it was crazy. That was happening.
- [62:24]
Zach Lowe
It was crazy. Maybe that would be.
- [62:26]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, whatever. But I think Robert Williams is going to have a moment as a free agency center with a deal higher than you think.
- [62:34]
Zach Lowe
Which Brooklyn Nets rookie would you prefer to buy stock in right now based on. And they're priced differently. Like, Joman is a little higher price because. Or he was picked, like, if you had to buy one. Are you going on, you know, the. The Wolf. The Wolf Den. What are you. What are you going in?
- [62:47]
Bill Simmons
Definitely not him.
- [62:49]
Zach Lowe
Wow.
- [62:51]
Bill Simmons
I don't mind Traore.
- [62:53]
Zach Lowe
He's pretty good.
- [62:55]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. And I think he's 19. I think if. If it was like you could only keep one of these five guys who you keep in, I. I actually think I might keep him over the other. But pretty rough that. That draft. When you think of some of the other guys that were in that draft.
- [63:12]
Zach Lowe
Don't say that to Nets fans. They're going to be like, you're missing. You're missing the three minutes in garbage time where Traore hit a scoop shot and Drake Powell, guard. I'm like, sorry. Great.
- [63:20]
Bill Simmons
They passed on Hugo five times. That's unbelievable.
- [63:27]
Zach Lowe
Hugo gets in, gets him.
- [63:28]
Bill Simmons
Did they took Eggor? They took him over. Coward, right?
- [63:31]
Zach Lowe
Yeah. And a few other good players, too. Yeah.
- [63:33]
Bill Simmons
That's a tough one.
- [63:34]
Zach Lowe
He's pretty good. He's pretty good. But again, like, it's. He's. He's pretty good on a team. That's horrible. And you would like him to put up a little bit more.
- [63:42]
Bill Simmons
I have one more stock guy that I've had for a couple of weeks. Jacoby, unfortunately, cornered the market on it, but Naquan Tomlin, I have a little on him. I don't even know if we saw him today.
- [63:53]
Zach Lowe
We did not.
- [63:54]
Bill Simmons
I like him.
- [63:56]
Zach Lowe
He's pretty good. He's a little story.
- [63:58]
Bill Simmons
It's like a penny stock. Yeah. Did you have any others? I mean, anybody on Philly? Darrell always has one or two guys to buy in on. Barlow probably shot up a little bit. Yeah.
- [64:11]
Zach Lowe
He's fine. I feel like the stock is probably overpriced right now.
- [64:14]
Bill Simmons
All right, a couple other things really quick before we go to the two things. We had. Rob Dillingham. Just a sunk cost, I guess.
- [64:24]
Zach Lowe
It's not. It's not going great.
- [64:26]
Bill Simmons
A rare L for Tim Connolly. It's a tough trade. You do that, giving up an unprotected pick down the road. You got to feel really good about the player. And one of the things I think about and the draft's interesting because there's a bunch of really exciting scoring guards in this draft. You don't follow the draft, but it's probably the best crew of scoring guards we've had. And some of them are smaller and some of them are bigger. It seems like where teams get in trouble over and over again are these undersized shooting guards or undersized point guards like the Sebastian Telfair, the Book Knight, The. The. The. The guy we're talking about now. Like the. The. These guys. Dillingham, These. These guys that you talk yourself into, and they just end up. They're too small.
- [65:16]
Zach Lowe
Jimmer. Do I hear Jimmer's music?
- [65:18]
Bill Simmons
Jimmer's definitely in there, too, but it seems like that's a recurring theme, that you're probably just better off taking a 6, 7 guy who can't shoot, hoping he learns how to shoot versus an undersized guard.
- [65:29]
Zach Lowe
I just can't believe how little he's playing. He has played since being traded to the Bulls. His minutes are up a little bit lately, but I thought they would just be like, hey, just do. Make. Don't be afraid to make all the mistakes that Minnesota could not afford to have you make. Make them here.
- [65:42]
Bill Simmons
And are they trying to win? They're not tanking. What are they doing?
- [65:44]
Zach Lowe
They're tanking.
- [65:45]
Bill Simmons
Okay. Every time I think they're tanking, they win. Adam Silver was at Sloan and laid the smackdown with tanking.
- [65:53]
Zach Lowe
I saw in his very. In his. Adam Silver can only lay the smackdown like a lawyer, like a highly trained Cravath lawyer.
- [66:01]
Bill Simmons
But if you read. If you put it through your Adam Silver translator, the translator spat out, we are changing this, and there's going to be real rules put in place after this draft, was my interpretation.
- [66:11]
Zach Lowe
I don't want to hear when he says, I'm an incrementalist, which is fine. Like, there's going to be change. And I don't want to hear from the peanut gallery over here of owners that are against it. We're doing it, so buckle up.
- [66:26]
Bill Simmons
Shaq didn't know who Baylor Shireman was.
- [66:29]
Zach Lowe
I didn't see this. That's real.
- [66:31]
Bill Simmons
That was tough.
- [66:31]
Zach Lowe
He's been starting for the number two team in the East.
- [66:35]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I know. It's like a running gimmick that these guys don't know who's on. And I know we all love the inside the NBA guys, but. But you could know who's in the rotation for the best six teams in the league. I feel like seems reason a reasonable request from the fans. Has this buck season reached everyone might get fired status yet? Because I'll give you their last 17 years.
- [66:57]
Zach Lowe
You're just trying to manifest Doc Rivers podcast guests. That's all you're doing. Be honest.
- [67:02]
Bill Simmons
No, I'm more worried because I like Doc Rivers. I want him to have a job. They're nine and eight in their last 17. Here are the eight losses.
- [67:10]
Zach Lowe
You don't even need to. They stink. We don't need to hear the losses. No, no, no.
- [67:13]
Bill Simmons
This is pretty good.
- [67:14]
Zach Lowe
Okay.
- [67:15]
Bill Simmons
They lost by the following numbers of points. 28, 19, 28, 29, 23, 27, 18 and today 39. They don't just lose, they get annihilated. They get blown out. They had giannis for the 27 and the 18, and we were here a week ago wondering if things were going to turn around for them and the answer is no. So you don't think this is a blow it up this summer for them? Oh, everybody goes, look like everybody. I'm talking gm, coach. We're just. It's a reset button. Nuclear boom. Giannis is gone. New people. And we're doing a four year tank. The whole thing.
- [67:56]
Zach Lowe
It's definitely possible. And the Giannis story is not over just because he didn't get traded at the trade deadline. I think we all know it's not over, but, you know, I don't think they're going to trade him unless he demands a trade. I just don't think they're going to because they probably correctly understand the abyss that's waiting for them on the other side of being completely irrelevant. And he's still 31 years old and one of the three to five best players in the league. And I think it starts with him. Now. Could they make changes around him? Sure. We've seen them do that before. They've changed the coach a bunch of times and they would change the coach again in the middle of the season. So anything's on the table. But yeah, they, you know, I have
- [68:34]
Bill Simmons
some silver linings for Bucks fans.
- [68:37]
Zach Lowe
Sure, let's hear them.
- [68:39]
Bill Simmons
They won the title four years ago. Five years ago.
- [68:43]
Zach Lowe
We've downgraded that to silver lining.
- [68:45]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, just go back and watch the DVD. That's 1, 2. If there's expansion, you're not going to lose somebody you really like because you don't have eight players to protect. So that's a good one. And then that's mean.
- [68:58]
Zach Lowe
That one was mean. You didn't need to. That was mean.
- [69:01]
Bill Simmons
Well, It's a silver lining.
- [69:03]
Zach Lowe
What about Thanasis? Will someone take Thanasis in the expansive draft?
- [69:07]
Bill Simmons
They leave him unprotected. And then you do have your first round pick this year.
- [69:11]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, you do.
- [69:12]
Bill Simmons
And there is a scenario where them versus New Orleans, because New Orleans has nothing to play for. They keep winning. Their picks might be around each other, so they might end up with the pick they would have ended up with anyway, or somewhere around. There might not be. They might not be like, oh, man, we could have.
- [69:28]
Zach Lowe
Blah, blah, blah.
- [69:31]
Bill Simmons
What is your time machine, Giannis? Trade. If you could go back in a month and just force a trade. Cause I have a team, I have a trade that I wish would happen because I just think it would have made the league more fun.
- [69:41]
Zach Lowe
I can just do any team.
- [69:43]
Bill Simmons
You're going backwards a month and you're being like, I know you didn't want to do this, but now I'm forcing you to do this on February 5th. Because I think there's a specific one.
- [69:58]
Zach Lowe
I'm trying to be realistic for the Bucks, right? Like, I'm not just going to be like, I want them to go to the Warriors. So I'm going to make a Warriors trade, which you can make a plausible warriors trade. I think the most interesting one to revisit that's realistic for the Bucks is either it's going to be one of three teams you're going to bring up. It's going to be either Detroit, Cleveland or Houston. It's going to be one of those three teams I had.
- [70:20]
Bill Simmons
Houston.
- [70:20]
Zach Lowe
Yeah. Who's going in the trade?
- [70:23]
Bill Simmons
Sengun, Shangun, Jabari and some picks. And right now we watched that game tonight, and Giannis is on. Giannis is on Houston. We're watching Milwaukee. Senguns on Milwaukee, and I just think the league's more interesting and Milwaukee probably feels better about where they are. I know the Milwaukee fans don't want to trade Giannis. I think it is alarming that he came back and they just got crushed a couple times.
- [70:46]
Zach Lowe
As you say, does. Does our month timetable extend before he got injured? Because I think that was an under. I don't think that was talked about. We all talked about it, but I don't think it was considered this assumption that he was just going to come back and be healthy and 100% and never get injured again. And he's actually come back and looked good, but not like Giannis and is always seemingly at risk of some injury like this.
- [71:11]
Bill Simmons
Wanted to mention, haven't heard a lot from Drew Hanlon. Taking shots at the ringer lately about how wrong we were about Embiid. Just wanted to open the door for him if he wanted to keep taking the shots.
- [71:22]
Zach Lowe
I mean, Embiid's not playing this another just weird. Just added to the list of weird injuries. But he did, he didn't do it with Carmelo Anthony this week.
- [71:32]
Bill Simmons
I'm sure you saw he's played 33, 19 and 33 games in the last three years. This is why we can't put him in the top 30 in the Ringer 100. One of the parts of being a high end NBA player is playing NBA games. That's one of the things we value here at the ringer. There's going to be a WNBA strike, I think. I think it looks more likely than less likely. It's a disaster. I don't think it looks good in the. Barring a miracle. But it feels like we're heading that way. And I just wanted to say that I think that sucks. I understand the reasons from both sides, but it's just unbelievable to me that they would stop playing basketball when they finally had momentum after 25 years. And now we're not going to play. I have a list of teams I've given up trying to figure out. Bronze. I'm going to go bronze, silver, gold.
- [72:26]
Zach Lowe
Oh, Olympics.
- [72:27]
Bill Simmons
Bronze medal, Houston. Silver medal, Minnesota. Gold medal, Orlando. I just give up.
- [72:36]
Zach Lowe
I was actually going to ask you. Orlando. I give up.
- [72:39]
Bill Simmons
I have no takes. I have no takes. No, I don't. I give up. What's the deal with that team?
- [72:46]
Zach Lowe
What's the deal with the Orlando Magic? Do they know how to do magic or.
- [72:51]
Bill Simmons
They barely beat Dallas on Wednesday. Like barely. Dallas isn't even trying to win. Then they go to Minnesota and they kill Minnesota in Minnesota on Saturday. I don't, I just don't understand them. I don't understand Minnesota either.
- [73:04]
Zach Lowe
That was one of those games where you're like, what's, what's happening here? I don't understand how this, this magic Minnesota game is like the NBA just has funny games. Yeah, they bought Washington, Dallas, Minnesota, Milwaukee is their four game winning streaks. So forgive me if I'm going to just not go crazy over it because three of the wins are poo poo wins. The Dallas one down to the wire as you mentioned. The Minnesota wins a good one.
- [73:28]
Bill Simmons
They have talent.
- [73:29]
Zach Lowe
They're fine. I just, you know, we'll see where they end up.
- [73:31]
Bill Simmons
I really wanted to believe in Minnesota. Was dying to believe they were 33 to one to win the title. Heading into that Saturday game and I'm just like, here we go. They're going to be.
- [73:43]
Zach Lowe
You're crushed by one loss. That's it. You're out.
- [73:46]
Bill Simmons
It's just every time, every time we feel like we're getting momentum with. Here's the mystery contender we needed for the stretch run. It's Minnesota. And then they just suck in a game.
- [73:58]
Zach Lowe
I'm keeping him as the mystery contender. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not wavering.
- [74:01]
Bill Simmons
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- [74:21]
Zach Lowe
So if you've been living in the
- [74:22]
Bill Simmons
white cans, branch out. Ultra's got a flavor for every vibe, and every single one is Zero Sugar. Tap the banner to learn more.
- [74:32]
Zach Lowe
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- [74:58]
Bill Simmons
Available now@worldofwarcraft.com all right, we're going to do our deep dive. So we've done deep dives on. We did Kawhi Leonard. Who did we do last week? We did a good one last week.
- [75:13]
Zach Lowe
I already forgot once. Once we're done, I forget.
- [75:16]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, we were going to do the 2011 MVP race and it's topical because there were some slight parallels until Detroit fell off a little bit and Cade fell off a little bit. Uh oh, what happened with the Hornets? Hold on. Did they, did they. Oh, they're losing. Okay, so that's it.
- [75:41]
Zach Lowe
We now pause the podcast in real time. Cause the Hornets are losing.
- [75:46]
Bill Simmons
Oh yeah, the deep dive was about the Hornets last week. So we did Kawhi and we did the Hornets. Yes, we were in the 2011 MVP race because of slight parallels to what we were watching this year with Cade and there was a brief MVP case for him. But now that Shay's come back, doesn't matter. This is probably, I think, been other than 2017, the most polarizing MVP race since the decision. It wasn't polarizing when it happened because Derrick Rose won. Derrick Rose had 113 first place votes out of 120. Dwight Howard finished second. LeBron James was third and Kobe Bryant was fourth. This was the season after the decision. Chicago was 62 and 20. They started out nine and eight. They finished 55 and 12. They were 24 of their last 27 games. And somewhere along the line we all decided Derrick Rose was the mvp. And now as the years have passed because Miami made the finals four straight years, LeBron is who he is. This is a MVP race that people now point to as this should have been LeBron's MVP. You did not vote for either LeBron James or Derrick Rose. You didn't have a vote, but your fake vote was not for either guy.
- [77:03]
Zach Lowe
I would have been the fourth Dwight Howard voter that season. I just thought he was first of all he was defensive player of the year and it was almost unanimous. It was easily the best defender in the NBA and it was maybe his best offensive season. 23 points a game shot. Well, the advanced stats all loved him. And I just thought, you know, it's interesting we were, that is so long ago in sort of NBA discourse times that we were just sort of getting into like on off data and stuff like that. And again when you're doing these races it's all. You're just splitting the thinnest of hairs between guys who are all deserving. And obviously Derrick Rose was the story of the season. The Bulls were the story of the season. But one of the arguments that you could make in favor of DWight Howard and 15 years later I probably overindexed on it in picking Dwight Howard was the on off data that year. The Magic were awesome with Dwight Howard on the floor and I think they were negative something trying to look it up now with him on the bench. And the Bulls were really good with Derrick Rose on the floor and really good with Derrick Rose off the floor because their defense without him was impenetrable. And some of that had to do with Derrick Rose. Some of it was probably just random luck. And I probably under underestimated the luck factor in that back in 2011. But I think there's an, there's a ironclad statistical case for Dwight Howard. Not ironclad, but you could make a statistical case for Dwight Howard easily. And I just thought he was the most dominant two way player in basketball that year. And the LeBron one.
- [78:33]
Bill Simmons
Wait, can we talk about Dwight first and then go to LeBron?
- [78:35]
Zach Lowe
Sure.
- [78:36]
Bill Simmons
So I had Dwight, I think I had him fifth. And I said kudos to him for this is I wrote a big MVP column that year and I said kudos to him for getting about 11% better this season, blah, blah, blah. Magic's only rebounder, only above average defender, 60% of his shots, blah, blah, blah. And then I wrote, I can't give my MVP vote for one simple reason. He leaves something on the table every night. Dwight Howard should be the league's most dominant player. Then I had a couple things about comparing him to Shaq. All this stuff, Shaq's MVP season, where that Shaq MVP season. I wrote, ha. That's the Shaq we were waiting for. I knew he had that extra gear. That's how I feel about Dwight Howard right now. Hakeem averaged a 2414 with 4.6 blocks, 2.1 steals in 1990. It wasn't even one of the best three seasons of his career. I keep going on that. Are you telling me his 23.1 points, 14 rebounds, 2.4 blocks, 26.1 PR is the best he can do? No way. So then I wrote, that's when you ask, wait, why does it matter if it's better than anyone else's best season? Who cares if he peaks as a player? It's still the best season. And then I said, advanced metrics should be used to accentuate opinions we're already leaning towards having instead of forming and shaping those same opinions. If Howard is Orlando's best player and he's holding something back every night, how can you say that doesn't affect the Magic? So they had the eighth best record that year. They're 52 and 30. I was saying how he gets dumb technicals.
- [80:09]
Zach Lowe
That's the eighth best record that year.
- [80:10]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, dumb technicals, dumb fouls, disappears in crunch time. Didn't even rank in top 125 in crunch time, field goal attempts, they had an uneven season, Nobody's afraid to play them in the playoffs, blah, blah, blah. How can I vote for him for mvp? That's how I felt in the moment. So I think there's an eye test piece to that where it's like, I just don't feel right saying that this guy is the best guy in the league. You've been. You don't care about as much about that. You're more Spock when you do the case. You're like, here's the mathematical case. This guy is the best at this, his records, this. I still slide the eye test stuff in there. Probably a little too much. I don't know who's right.
- [80:49]
Zach Lowe
Well, I mean, part of the eye test is he was single handedly making the Magic a good defensive Team like by himself as easily the best defense. Not easily, but the best defensive player in the NBA. I mean that has to be. When you talk about leaving stuff on the table. Derrick Rose was not a good defensive player that year. So he was leaving stuff on the table.
- [81:09]
Bill Simmons
But they were the number one defense. They were. So he couldn't have been that bad, right?
- [81:13]
Zach Lowe
No, they were way better. They were way better. They were like a freaking juggernaut from hell without him. But that doesn't like again, all these guys had cases. Everything you said about Dwight is fair. That and that was like the, that was the end of that year of the Magic. That was the last year that team was good.
- [81:32]
Bill Simmons
And well, that was the irony of what I wrote is that was his best season and I think. And it was like, is there more there? And it's like, nah, there actually was,
- [81:39]
Zach Lowe
there was, there wasn't. And there was in fact less eventually. But it did feel like at that time he was holding together the last remains of that team that had made the finals. And then the conference finals the next year and they ended up losing in the first round the next two years and then it was kind of over and. Yeah, but I just thought defensively he was like, he was a floor every night. Like your floor was pretty stable with Dwight Howard in the middle on defense. And yeah, the Shaq thing is, it's so tiresome because Shaq has perpetuated it too. Like they had this rivalry over the years and then they would, you know, reconcile and then they'd be a rival again. He was never as, he's not as big as Shaq. He couldn't just move people out of the way as easily as Shaq could. I mean Shaq was just, you know, just the eighth wonder of the world kind of guy and he just was never a polished post up player. And those were the years where they. Stan Van Gundy just sort of successfully shoehorned him into. Yeah, post up a few times a game when you've got good matchups and
- [82:36]
Bill Simmons
we'll throw you the ball, you'll feel good about it.
- [82:37]
Zach Lowe
But just do these things you're awesome at and you're going to be the foundation of every single thing we do offensively and defensively. You are the tent pole of everything. And I just thought that was his best season.
- [82:49]
Bill Simmons
So the stuff I wrote about Rose and it's weird because over the years I've been like, I got the Rose thing wrong. And then I went back and read how passionate I was about the Rose case. About that team was 62 and 20. He was the only guy in the. He carried their offense, was the only guy on their team who really could create his own shot. Right. Who else was a little like the Detroit case this year?
- [83:12]
Zach Lowe
He's a little boozer. One guy, a little boozer. A little.
- [83:16]
Bill Simmons
A little usage was pretty crazy in crunch time. Per 48, second most field goal, eighth most free throw attempts, ninth highest assistance. He was doing everything. I was comparing it to the Iverson 016ers thing and just like, just everything was on him game after game after game. And they won most of their games, which matters. And then Boozer and Noah both. I wrote Rose. Keeping the Bulls contention for three plus months with Boozer. Noah missed significant time was the most impressive thing I witnessed this season. Their quest for number one seed should have been derailed in November. Blah, blah, blah. He kept them hanging around, kept them relevant, and they were the best team that year. And whether he was the best player was the bigger question because LeBron was still the best player in the league. But that Miami season was super weird. It's interesting. What I wrote in that MVP column was that I thought Wade had a slightly better case than LeBron that year because he was more kind of stable and reliable. LeBron had all that. He was the villain that year. He was a little up and down. There were games when you didn't know where his head was. But I really said both. They were basically CO MVPs, which I talked about CO MVP seasons of 1970. Reed and Frazier, 72, Jerry West, Will Chamberlain and 06. Shaq and Wade. It was really like hard to separate the two guys. And impact. If I had to do it over again, I think I would have Rose one, I think I would have LeBron two, Wade three, and Dwight four. And I think that's how I would go because Those guys won 55 games. There was three guys. It was those two in Bosh. Mike Miller, who wasn't exactly awesome that year. They had Carlos Arroyo, Mike Bibby, like they were grabbing dudes from the street. They were 3 on 5 and they still went 55 and 27. Every game they played was the biggest game of the season for the other team. So I don't know, when I look back at that, they. They were two of the best three guys in the league. Other than. Let's want to throw Dwight in there.
- [85:15]
Zach Lowe
Can you. Can you imagine if LeBron had won MVP that year and then had the same finals that he had that season?
- [85:24]
Bill Simmons
It would have been worse. Than the Dirk 07.
- [85:26]
Zach Lowe
I mean it would, it would have been the all time. Like there would have been columns being like, we need to revoke the MVP and give it to whoever finished second is what would have happened.
- [85:37]
Bill Simmons
The thing is he, the animosity from the decision. He wasn't winning MVP unless they won like 60 plus games.
- [85:43]
Zach Lowe
I also think it's okay, I think it's okay for voters when these super teams happen to take a year and just sort of be like, I don't. I gotta kind of see what's going on here. Because the word valuable in there does give you sort of leeway to be like, well, that one guy is so centrally important to his team. And these, all three of these guys just teamed up. It's why like this isn't even a level up super team. But the moment Durant went to the warriors, those guys were never winning MVP again. And I think that was fair. Like it's just the team's too good. You have too much. Like there's another. There's gonna someone else doing more, much more with. Doing the same with much less than you guys have.
- [86:23]
Bill Simmons
I think Wade, the Wade from 09 to 11 is the most underappreciated guy of the last 20 years. How good he was and for instance,
- [86:35]
Zach Lowe
why not start at 06?
- [86:37]
Bill Simmons
Well, you start at wherever. But those three years specifically, I just think like I thought his 09 year was one of the best years any two guard had since Jordan in 11. He's better than Wade. I wrote that in the MVP piece because Kobe ends up finishing fourth in the mvp. Wade was just better than him that year. He was just better. Pick a stat. He was better than him defensively. Kobe was still getting those all defense teams at that point. He wasn't the guy Wade was. And Wade was just as good as LeBron and in the playoffs was actually better than LeBron, especially in the finals. I just think they were like this. LeBron that year was not, I don't think better than Wade. He might have had better nights, but I just think Wade was like the engine of that team. And he was the alpha of that team, really trying to keep LeBron's head into it. It wasn't till the next year that LeBron ascended and kind of went to that next level. But I thought Wade was. I'll never forget watching Wade that year, especially in the finals. I just thought he had a. I can't remember if it was game three or game four, but he had one game that was just. He was so Fucking good in this
- [87:42]
Zach Lowe
game in the Dallas finals.
- [87:44]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, it was either three or four. He was just so good. I still remember being in the stands like holy shit. You know. And I just felt like Kobe, Kobe stole some of his sunshine I think. Cause they were going against each other and everybody at that point, Kobe had become, you know, he was rising up the ladder. And I just think Wade was right there with him for years. And we don't think of it that way now.
- [88:09]
Zach Lowe
No, we don't. And it would be interesting to do the all time shooting guard rankings one deep dive. Because Wade would be very, very high and was an elite, elite two way player who just like his athleticism betrayed him fast because of all the damage that had been done to his knees. But I mean you go back and you watch Peak Dwyane Wade and it just, he just jumps off the screen. There is nobody who can stay in front of him. I mean he's just a remarkable, remarkable athlete. He could pass. The defense was there. It's just an unusual player. A guy that height who could block shots like that and protect the rim and play vertically was very unusual and very tough. Tough and fearless from day one.
- [88:48]
Bill Simmons
So that was the other thing I was just saying mean spirited and I mean it as a compliment like really had an edge to him. Kobe did too, but really carried himself with almost a level of anger when he played in a good way. But so that year he was 26 a game, six rebounds, five assists. Kobe was 25, five and five. He shot 50%, played 2,823 minutes. Some of the minute stuff this year was nuts. Rose played over 3,000 minutes. So did LeBron.
- [89:18]
Zach Lowe
I'm glad you brought that up because I was going to bring this up. The top four finishers played 82, 78, 79 and 81 games. Like that'll. Is that ever going to happen again?
- [89:28]
Bill Simmons
Right? I mean that's the, that's the best thing with the Rose case is he just played. He played 80 like 81 games, 37 minutes a game. He was their entire offense. He was in fifth gear every game. You never saw a game when he had a night off. And so the more I stared at it and thought about it and read what I wrote, read the read, read some other stuff that was out there. I still think Rose is the right call. And the fact that it was that one sided, I think maybe it shouldn't have been as one sided as it was, but I think that is meaningful.
- [89:58]
Zach Lowe
It shouldn't have been as one sided as it Was I think it absolutely holds up as an okay to correct decision to make. It wouldn't have been my vote, but I think it completely holds up as an MVP case. And I think all of the, if there was ever a we got this wrong, like, MVP discussion about it, I think it would all focus on LeBron. I don't think any of it would focus on Dwight or Dwayne Wade or Kobe. I think it would be. It all coalesces around. Did the voters punish LeBron for the decision and when it was still obvious that he was by far the best player? Because the advanced stats will tell you LeBron was the best player. The advanced stats, not every stat, but the advanced stats will tell you that. And I think it would coalesce around him. And I, I, I think it's fine that he didn't win MVP that year. I think that's totally fair.
- [90:46]
Bill Simmons
I think him and Wade were 1A 1B, and I'm not even sure who 1A was. Wade was plus 10.4 that year and LeBron was plus 10.1. They were just so intertwined. I don't know how you can even say one guy was more valuable than the other. And it really was amazing to watch those guys those first three years. And it kind of culminated in the streak. Right? The streak, which was one of the great achievements. And that was really Wade's last great run, I think. Cause even when they got to 2013 playoffs, he was starting to break down. There's one guy I was trying to think, did anybody have an advanced case that we didn't really fully understand in 2011, but now we understand better in 26 if we were doing it with our lens. And it's clearly Dirk Nowitzki. Clearly. And I wrote some of this in the MVP thing, even though I had him like eighth, where they were basically like 55 and 12 when he played, and then something like that, 55 and 14. And when he didn't play, they were helpless. He was the only guy on the team that could create a shot other than Terry. They had that Roddy Boubois. They were trying to turn him into a thing. For a lot of the year, I
- [91:54]
Zach Lowe
thought he didn't know he was untouchable. He was untouchable.
- [91:56]
Bill Simmons
Couldn't trade him. And then it all coalesced in the playoffs and they found a defensive identity. He went up a level, but his advanced stuff was, oh, they're 55 and 18 with him when he played, but he was plus 10.3. He was 23. 7 and 3. So it was a typical Dirk year. 52, 39, 89. And they won like 57 games. So there was probably a little better case for him. They had the fourth best record in the league and that would be the guy maybe if he had to do it over again. Maybe he stinks into fourth or fifth.
- [92:31]
Zach Lowe
That's probably, that's a good call. And I remember writing at Sports Illustrated that year that the Mavs were a contender hiding in plain sight because, because of their. Yeah, he missed like 10 games. I think they went like 1 and 9 without Dirk or some crazy number like that. And that totally deflated their place in the standings. I remember that year, you know, they played Portland in the first round and I believe that series is 2, 2. And there's the Brandon Roy game and Portland wins games three and four at home and everyone's like, here go the Mavericks again. And then it just skyrocketed from there.
- [93:02]
Bill Simmons
It's. It's a great fork in the road where it really seemed like not only were they going to lose to Portland, but then they were going to have to blow everything up. And maybe that was going to be it for Dirk and all kinds of outcomes. And then all of a sudden it flipped the other way.
- [93:16]
Zach Lowe
Can I just say one Derrick Rose thing? Yeah, it might be the, I don't want to say rank injuries, but that injury, like Heat Bulls should have been an all time great half decade rivalry. It just, it just had everything. Contrasting styles, contrasting cities. Noah calling them Hollywood as hell. Just defense first. A team that was perceived as a highlight like lob dunk. It was just everything. And then the Pacers came in like filled the void, but it was clearly like someone's got to fill the void. And they were not as good as the. But that should have been just four straight years of conference finals and just swatfest the whole way through.
- [93:56]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, there were two great LeBron rivals that got crippled because I think KG's 2009 injury was the other one. Right. The two biggest injuries in either conference during this whole stretch were the KG09 and the rose in 12, where you had teams that probably had a chance to win one, maybe even two more titles between them. And you look at the teams. Indiana was the best team. They played probably in the east. In that 2011 of 14 stretch that Miami played in the playoffs, it was probably the Pacers.
- [94:28]
Zach Lowe
Indiana took him to seven and then six two times, I think.
- [94:33]
Bill Simmons
I don't know. That Knicks team I thought had potential, but they kind of fell apart then you go to the 2015 when he went back to Cleveland. I mean they played a 41, 41 Milwaukee team in 15 that early. Giannis with some Chris Middleton. I forget who else was on there. They played Atlanta, they played somebody else. But I just think the league is so much better than it was 11 years ago. I couldn't believe some of the teams
- [94:59]
Zach Lowe
of these playoffs those four years, they were so visibly bored with not only the regular season, but the playoffs too. In the East, I remember there was a. I don't remember which Raptors year it was because God knows they humiliated Toronto enough times. But it was the one where Toronto had them two, two in. In. I think it was the second round. And LeBron had this all time quote after they won game five. Like, yeah, I think it was certainly, I've been in adverse situations before and this wasn't one of them. And it was like, wow, you're just like 2, 2 in the playoffs. And you're just like, yeah, we don't care, just wake us up when we have to actually win.
- [95:39]
Bill Simmons
Crazy. All right, that was a good deep dive.
- [95:41]
Zach Lowe
LeBron.
- [95:42]
Bill Simmons
So you're keeping. You're sticking with Howard, is your vote?
- [95:45]
Zach Lowe
Okay, sticking with Dwight. The career from there careened sideways a few times, got weird, Hit a snowbank, fell into a lake. Like there's a. There's a lot of bad stuff that happened.
- [95:56]
Bill Simmons
I, as I was researching this stuff, you know, as. As I have amnesia with half the stuff I wrote you. And I did a back and forth piece about the 2013 Lakers as it was going sideways.
- [96:09]
Zach Lowe
Okay.
- [96:10]
Bill Simmons
We exchanged emails. It was like 5,000 words. Yeah, it was like January or February 2013. And it was when Dwight's season was starting to go sideways for the Lakers and Nash was looking old and Kobe was doing the thing where he's like, I'm just gonna. I think it all culminated in Kobe just playing 48 minutes a game and then getting hurt. But that team went off the rails in like the craziest way. And we're writing about that in real time and one of the guys we're writing about is Dwight. Like, like, oh yeah, this probably, probably isn't happening, by the way.
- [96:45]
Zach Lowe
Dwight Howard. Just for the record, I wanted to say this because I spent time looking this up. Dwight Howard won defensive player of the year that year. I think it was his third one in a row by a lot. He received 114 first place votes. The following players were the other players who received first place votes. And this was before the voting was public. Kevin Garnett won first place vote. Can't argue with Kevin Garnett. You're in.
- [97:08]
Bill Simmons
Grant Hill.
- [97:09]
Zach Lowe
38 year old Grant Hill of the Phoenix Suns got a first place defensive player of the year vote that year. Joaquim Noah got one. Okay. Keith Bogans snagged a first place vote. That doctor according to SB Nation, Dr. Jack Ramsey on a broadcast claimed that it was him that voted for Keith
- [97:29]
Bill Simmons
and that's when he lost his vote.
- [97:30]
Zach Lowe
And the only other player who received multiple first place votes with two, Chuck Hayes of the Houston Rockets.
- [97:37]
Bill Simmons
Chuck Hayes.
- [97:37]
Zach Lowe
Two first place votes.
- [97:39]
Bill Simmons
Low post shutdown guy.
- [97:41]
Zach Lowe
We all love Chuck Hayes, but whoever those two people are, take it easy with Chuck Hayes. Love.
- [97:48]
Bill Simmons
Last thing before we go. We didn't get to our Utah thing. Maybe we'll do it next week. I read this book. I'm gonna do a quick book review. I read this book called Masters of the Game by Sam Smith and Phil Jackson.
- [98:01]
Zach Lowe
Oh, I have it. I haven't read it yet. So now I will be interested in your review.
- [98:07]
Bill Simmons
They go through 75 players and it's basically a back and forth, almost like how we did that Dwight Howard thing. It's a back and forth of their conversation with each player, but each one kind of can basically zag into this different conversation. It's one of the strangest books I've ever read. I don't understand if they had a proofreader or an editor or anything. There's certain guys where they don't even talk about the guy. It's like number whatever, Anthony Davis. And then it's just the whole section, some story about Phil Jackson when he coached for Albany. There's factual stuff that's wrong. They say at one point Lonnie Shelton got in a fight with Bill Bridges when it was actually Buck Williams. And just. It's just a. I kind of couldn't believe how lazy it was and why they didn't try to make it better. And at the same time I got like 20 things out of it reading it. And there were some really interesting tidbits and it was worth kind of zooming through the biggest thing that I learned and I had no idea. As you remember, I used to love Pat Riley's disease of me and I made a big thing about it in my basketball book and I would always bring it up and all this stuff. Apparently it was actually Lenny Wilkins thing that he called Championship hangout, Championship fallout that he called during the year after the Seattle Sonics won. And he talked about all these factors that happened to your team. And he named it Championship Fallout. I don't wanna say Pat Riley stole it, but Pat Riley definitely renamed it into the Disease of Me in his book. And then I thought it was a Pat Riley thing, but it turns out it was a Lenny Wilkins thing and that kind of blew my brain.
- [99:50]
Zach Lowe
Half of life is marketing, right? Like, yeah, you know, did the Winklevi invent Facebook or did Mark Zuckerberg invent Facebook?
- [99:55]
Bill Simmons
Who knows? But Championship Fallout, it's called.
- [99:58]
Zach Lowe
So you're. That review, that review you just gave. There were some plot twists within the review. I mean, I thought it was going to be a full on pan and then it veered into, like, pretty innovative.
- [100:09]
Bill Simmons
There was guys where it's like, I don't understand how that's all you had to say about Chris Paul. Like, you couldn't have just, just done two paragraphs back and forth about Chris Paul. Instead, he went this way. But at the same time, I was really enjoying some of the stories. So I don't know the book. I kind of enjoyed reading it as I was frustrated by it because there was some tidbits that reinforced things I heard, like, they killed Elvin Hayes. They talked about Dave Cowens, what a maniac he was. But there was some interesting coaching stuff with Phil, like guys that he clearly liked. Like, he loved Jason Kidd and he kind of didn't like Chris Paul. And he was like, Chris Paul was kind of like, look at me, look at me, I'm the leader, look at me. And Jason Kidd was like actually a leader. So there was. There were things to gleam from Phil Jackson. And then Sam Smith covered the league during, you know, and I really respect Sam Smith and he had some really good insight on these different teams he covered. So you just kind of had to dig out the interesting stuff in the book. And that was the takeaway. But this was one of the things Phil Jackson said, or I was actually Sam Smith said this. They're talking about Patrick Ewing and the Knicks go up two nothing in the Bulls Knicks series in 93. And he said, they go back to Chicago and Ewing says, the Knicks just had to win one, Just had to win one. And he goes, you never heard that from Michael. Down to nothing. He would say, we're gonna win the next four. Ewing was just more normal than Michael. And I was like, that's actually a really interesting point. There's two types of players, right? There's the guy that would go into Chicago up to nothing and be like, we just gotta win one and get it back to New York. And then there's like the Jordan, Kobe types that would be like, we're fucking winning the next four. Fuck these guys. And I was like, yeah, that's kind of. So it got my juices going on all these different basketball things. But I was still like incredibly frustrated reading it. So that's my review.
- [102:02]
Zach Lowe
More Normal than Michael is a section of the Venn diagram that encompasses most
- [102:06]
Bill Simmons
of humanity, by the way, on Apple books. This book is $2. So you could just read it, download it, and zoom through it on your iPad and have a really good time.
- [102:16]
Zach Lowe
Let's do a book talk. So I'm about two thirds of the way through the new Larry Bird book, Heartland.
- [102:20]
Bill Simmons
Oh, what's the best thing you learned?
- [102:22]
Zach Lowe
I mean, it's just. It's all. So far. It's all like. He just got to Indiana State, basically where I am. It's all his. I mean, I knew a lot of his childhood growing up and his. And his family situation, but I did not know as much about how long he was actually at IU before he left and what are some of the reasons why he left and what his roommate situation was. And just like you really get a good picture of both French Lick and Terre Haute. Like, they talk about the bars that people would go to and some of the atmosphere around those early Indiana State games when it was clear they had something with Bird and this international. I was not aware or had forgotten about this team of like high school or might have been freshman year of college all stars that went and played internationally on this trip that became like a disaster. They got into a ball and it was crazy. There's a lot of good stuff in there and I like that. It's. I don't even know if we're getting to the Celtics in the book ever. It's all college in high school.
- [103:23]
Bill Simmons
Oh, interesting approach. We ran an excerpt of it on the ringer. A couple other things from that book. By the way. Phil Jackson really loved what a tough guy Karl Malone was. And I almost wonder. I gotta really rethink my Karl Malone. Cause he obviously, I was always glass half empty on every aspect of him. And even created the 42 club to try to try to make his resume worse. Cause I really valued how bad he was in these end of the game things. He was talking about just what an absolute intimidation guy he was and how he would intimidate like Garnett, Rasheed Wallace. All these dudes wanted no part of him because he was just this tough guy. His elbows were always up and Nobody really fucked with him ever. And I don't think I've counted that in enough with him. So that was one thing. And then he was talking about Shaq, just what an awful practice player Shaq was. And he basically was like, as the years pass, you romanticize all the good things about a player. But it was like, Shaq just ruined practice for us. We would have to play four on four. Like, Shaq just was actually like a negative influence day to day because he just mailed in practices nonstop, and it really hurt us. So you hear stuff like that and you're like, all right, that's something. You know, it's not just about the stats.
- [104:42]
Zach Lowe
And then you would go score 45 and be completely.
- [104:45]
Bill Simmons
And that's why you put up with it. Yeah, that's why you put up with it. But it was interesting. I'll check it out. Yeah, I'm going to try to read a basketball book a week and give a little review at the end. He really loved Jason Kidd, though. Man, it made me wonder if I had Jason Kidd too high in my pyramid, whether he should be lower.
- [105:02]
Zach Lowe
Why would that make you wonder if he should be lower?
- [105:04]
Bill Simmons
I mean, like, I have him in the 40s. Like, I'm wondering, like. Yeah, because maybe I'm discounting his shot too much.
- [105:10]
Zach Lowe
He was just like, how could any coach not love Jason Kidd as a player? I mean, he's just next level basketball savant like you, and tough and plays defense. Like, he's just. He's gotta be. He's a coach, coaches player.
- [105:23]
Bill Simmons
Well, I wonder. I did the pyramid before the 11 finals, and maybe. Maybe I should factor that in more because he was awesome in that playoff run, even though he was running on fumes. I love being able to get Nowitzki where he needed to go and be the leader of the team, all that stuff.
- [105:37]
Zach Lowe
I loved that version of Jason, old man Jason Kidd, because he learned to shoot threes. And he was like, I'm going to. He was like, I think I can make up a position where I play point guard. And I never go in the paint. I just play like, old man quarterback, point guard. And I'm still such a good passer that it works.
- [105:55]
Bill Simmons
Would you rather have Jason Kidd or Chris Paul if you could have one guy for their whole career?
- [105:59]
Zach Lowe
Jason Kidd.
- [106:01]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. I gotta redo the pyramid. All right. See, I'm glad I read this book. Even though I was frustrated by it. It really did get my juices going in nine directions. So thank you, Sam Smith and Phil Jackson. $2 on Apple Books right now. Zach Lowe, this was a pleasure as always. Thanks to Eduardo Ngahao as well. Zach's gonna be back on his podcast on Tuesday. I have Fargo for the rewatchables tomorrow and then not sure, gonna do some football, I think, on Tuesday and then I don't know, on Thursday. So. And then potentially I think I'm seeing you again on Sunday.
- [106:31]
Zach Lowe
Okay.
- [106:32]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [106:33]
Zach Lowe
Okay. Sounds good.
- [106:34]
Bill Simmons
Well, you're traveling. There's stuff, but we're gonna figure out some sort of gimmick.
- [106:37]
Zach Lowe
Got some stuff.
- [106:38]
Bill Simmons
Zach Lowe, thanks, man. Thanks to everybody on Netflix and Spotify, and we'll see you next time around. Must be 21 plus on President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 on President in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gaming problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER 1-800-MY RESET. Call 888-797-777 or visit ccpg.org Chattinconenetic or mdgamblinghelp.org In Maryland, hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-Hopeny or text Hopeny in New York. For Louisiana, call 877-770-7867.