The 2025 NBA Trade Value List With Ryen Russillo

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Bill Simmons Podcast – "The 2025 NBA Trade Value List With Ryen Russillo"

Episode Information:

• Title: The Bill Simmons Podcast
• Host: Bill Simmons (The Ringer)
• Guest: Ryen Russillo
• Episode: The 2025 NBA Trade Value List With Ryen Russillo
• Release Date: January 28, 2025

---

Overview

In this episode of The Bill Simmons Podcast, host Bill Simmons teams up with sports analyst Ryen Russillo to delve into the 2025 NBA Trade Value List. The discussion centers around evaluating NBA players' trade values based on various factors such as age, contracts, performance, and team dynamics. The conversation offers deep insights into potential trade scenarios, the impact of player relationships with teams, and strategic moves that franchises might consider to enhance their rosters.

---

Key Discussion Points

1. Introduction to the Trade Value List

   • Bill Simmons introduces the concept of the Trade Value List, clarifying that it's an asset-based ranking rather than a mere performance leaderboard.
   • Emphasis is placed on evaluating players considering their age, salary, contract length, and overall happiness within their teams.

2. Jimmy Butler vs. Miami Heat Trade Scenario

   • Timestamp [04:32]: The conversation kicks off with the debate on whether Jimmy Butler should remain with the Miami Heat or be traded.
   • Ryen Russillo expresses understanding towards Butler's frustrations, stating, “they've torpedoed his trade value at this point” ([07:25]).
   • Bill Simmons adds, “Butler side is his relationship has been bad with the Heat for a couple of years, highlighting Butler's dissatisfaction despite his contributions to the team’s successes in previous finals.
   • The duo discusses potential teams interested in Butler, mentioning San Antonio and Houston, but consensus leans towards Butler's diminished trade value due to his fraught relationship with Miami.

3. Evaluating Trade Mechanics and Team Fit

   • Timestamp [10:11]: The complexity of trading players like Jimmy Butler is analyzed, focusing on team needs and contract constraints.
   • Bill Simmons remarks, “Golden State's the only team that's actually desperate, considering their strategic crossroads and potential to add Butler as a foundational player despite current performance.
   • Ryen Russillo raises concerns about contract fit and team dynamics, noting, “if you're working in the front office side of this, answering to your owner, I wouldn’t feel good about saying yes to that” ([13:12]).

4. Emergence of New Trade Assets

   • Discussion shifts to emerging players like Tyler Herro and Amane Thompson, evaluating their rising trade values based on recent performances and potential.
   • Timestamp [23:17]: Bill Simmons highlights Augustine Thompson’s exceptional athleticism and defense, placing him as a prime trade asset due to his versatile skills.
   • Ryen Russillo concurs, praising Thompson's development: “he’s been moving this way for five weeks and he's the best ass on that team.”

5. Assessment of Other Players and Contracts

   • The podcast covers a range of players, including Joel Embiid, De'Aaron Fox, Zion Williamson, Lamelo Ball, and Bam Adebayo, discussing their positions on the trade value list.
   • Notable quote from Ryen Russillo about Joel Embiid: “I have no idea what Joel Embiid's trade value is, showcasing the uncertainty surrounding his potential trade due to his current performance and contract.”

6. Strategic Team Building and Future Projections

   • Bill Simmons and Ryen Russillo explore how teams might leverage their trade assets to build competitive rosters, considering both short-term gains and long-term strategies.
   • Emphasis is placed on balance between player performance, contract management, and team chemistry.

---

Notable Quotes

• Ryen Russillo on Jimmy Butler's Trade Value:

  • “[they've torpedoed his trade value at this point” ([07:25]).

• Bill Simmons on Golden State’s Desperation:

  • “Golden State's the only team that's actually desperate.

• Ryen Russillo on Contract Constraints:

  • “[If you're working in the front office side of this, answering to your owner, I wouldn’t feel good about saying yes to that” ([13:12]).

• Bill Simmons on Amane Thompson’s Athleticism:

  • “[he’s on some rare plane that only a few guys I've seen have been at” ([25:45]).

• Ryen Russillo on Joel Embiid's Trade Uncertainty:

  • “[I have no idea what Joel Embiid's trade value is” ([54:25]).

---

Insights and Conclusions

Throughout the episode, Simmons and Russillo provide a nuanced analysis of NBA trade dynamics, emphasizing that trade value is not solely determined by on-court performance but also by off-court factors such as player-team relationships and contract logistics. They illustrate the complexity of trading high-profile players like Jimmy Butler and Joel Embiid, where strategic considerations often overshadow straightforward performance metrics.

A key takeaway is the importance of balancing immediate team needs with long-term asset management. The hosts advocate for a thoughtful approach to trades, where the potential uplift a player can bring is weighed against their contractual obligations and compatibility with team culture. Additionally, the emergence of young talents like Amane Thompson showcases the evolving landscape of NBA trade values, where versatility and potential become increasingly critical.

---

Final Thoughts

"The 2025 NBA Trade Value List With Ryen Russillo" offers listeners a comprehensive exploration of the factors influencing NBA trades. Simmons and Russillo adeptly dissect player valuations, providing valuable perspectives for fans and analysts alike. Their discussion underscores the intricate interplay between player performance, contractual negotiations, and team strategies in shaping the future of NBA franchises.

---

Prepared by The Ringer Team

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

Coming up, I'm going to bat around a 2025 NBA trade value list with Brian Rossillo. It's fun. It's next. This episode is brought to you by Nissan. When you're younger, you're more spontaneous. You say, screw it, I'm just going to drive cross country with my buddy and we'll stop at a bunch of places and take pictures. You get older, you would never do something like that. Keep your spontaneity, my friends. Fuel your inner adventure with the first ever Nissan Rogue Rock Creek. From rocky trails to snowy roads, there are plenty of places to show up this SUV thanks to its intelligent all wheel drive. Its adventure ready design gives it a rugged flare that stands out off road adventure calls to the first ever Nissan Rogue Rock Creek. Visit NissanUSA.com to learn more. Intelligent all wheel drive cannot prevent collisions or provide enhanced traction in all conditions. Always monitor traffic and weather conditions. This episode is brought to you by VRBO Private Vacation Rentals. With vrbo, you always get the whole house so you and your fellow fans can cheer on your team in peace. What's worse than watching a game with somebody who's not rooting for the same team? You're rooting for nothing. But that's why if you book a vacation house with vrbo, you know all the people in your house. They'll be friends, they'll be family. Ideally, they'll be the ones who also root for my teams. Plan a winning vacation. Make it a vrbo. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network where I put up a new rewatchables On Monday night. We did before sunrise 30th anniversary of a movie that I love very much. Me, Chris, Ryan, Sean Fantasy. You can watch it on The Ringer Movies YouTube channel as well. You can watch all the videos and clips from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. Rosillo came on. We started taping this late morning on Tuesday. I'm trying to figure out my annual Trade Value list that we're going to run on ringer.com so I brought in Marcillo as my conciliary as we're taping, Sham Sharania breaks the news that Sacramento is now ready to explore De'Aaron Fox trades, which of course we did not talk about. Even though this Trade Value podcast is almost two hours long. I'll let you guess where Fox was in the rankings, but let's just say he was in the top 25 for trades. Miami maybe. I think Butler has to be in it. And a bunch of Picks and God only knows what else. Or maybe, maybe it's built around Tyler Heron picks, but Miami jumped out to me as a possibility. Brooklyn, if they want to trade some of their. Some of their big stuff. And the only thing that doesn't make sense with them is they're trying to tank this year, but it just seems like the kind of foundational guy for them. San Antonio definitely has the pieces to try to get him, throw some picks in, they can make the contracts work and then try to pair him with Wemby and then Houston, which we talk about in this podcast you're about to hear, which I think Houston's going to be afraid to do a major move, but they certainly have the pieces. If they want to go get Fox, which I've been talking about for six weeks, if they wanted to turn Van Vliet and a bunch of their picks and maybe Cam Whitmore to make the contracts work and just try to go all in and get him and add him to the team, it would be risky because they're playing really well right now. But those were the ones that jumped out. Other than that, I don't really see a fit. But I guess we'll see. So Darren Fox on trade block. You were about to listen to the trade value breakdown for 2020 25. This is where we're going to sort out the finalist. Rosillo is here. It's all next. First, our friends from Pearl Jet. All right, we're taping this late Tuesday morning Pacific time. Ryan Marcillo is here. It's been a while for us once. Once we get through football season, we're gonna be doing Sunday nights again, talking hoops and a whole bunch of other stuff. But I'm bringing you in right now, Rossillo, as the trade value list. Conciliary, a thing that I have now been doing for 25 years, a quarter of a century, the trade values list, which is not a rankings, it's a trade asset list, trying to figure out who the biggest trade asset in the NBA is. But before we do that, what side are you on in Jimmy Butler vs. Miami? Do we have to pick a side?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, I think we do.

[Bill Simmons]

Is this one of those things where you just have to go one side or the other?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, I like to have an open mind about a lot of things, but I think deep down, my core, I know. I probably already know which direction I'm going, but he just wanted the contract that he's not getting. So what. I mean, unless there was a promise. I mean, everybody knows Harden's not my favorite guy, but I kind of sided with Harden on the end of the Philly thing because why would he have taken the pay cut? Why would he have done everything he had done?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

And then it's like. And I know Philly's gonna say nothing was ever agreed upon. You're totally wrong. All right, that's fine. But he did something that didn't really make a ton of sense at the time to allow flexibility. Then he didn't get a deal. So on that one, I was like, well, even though I'm not definitive either way, I can understand him being upset with this one. I mean, do. Have you heard anything that you believe is probably the important second part? Have you heard anything that you believe that would let you think that Miami would have been in a hurry to extend somebody like Butler, who's 35 and misses a lot of games and had.

[Bill Simmons]

A contract for this year and a player option for next year? I think that's the unusual part about it, is that there was real years on the book left. I. I really feel like I want to pick a side, but I kind of see both sides.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Cause what's Butler's side? Gimme, gimme. The anti Miami Heat side.

[Bill Simmons]

I think Butler side is. His relationship has been bad with the Heat for a couple years, and he took them to the finals in 2000 and 2023. And I think at some point he felt like, you know, I brought you guys here, you guys tried to embarrass me in the press conference last year. You won't talk about an extension. You obviously don't care if I'm here two years from now. So what's the point of this? With that said, I don't think he's handled it well either. You know, I think a lot of us, including me and you, have been in, you know, some pretty hairy professional situations where you ended up not liking people you worked with or the employer you had. And at some point, you still have to kind of do your job. And I think that's where it's tough to side with him. On the Miami side, Riley just seems like he's tried to antagonize him and alpha dog him in a bunch of different ways. In ways that if you knew anything about Jimmy Butler, it's like, you get on this road and there's no going back. So I see both sides, but I will say this. They've torpedoed his trade value at this point. I mean, I think you could just get him now for two expirings. And they're like, good, take him. Because they're so worried he's going to opt into next year. The start of the season, I was thinking Houston should do Amen Thompson and Van Vliet, and let's go all in and try. I. I mean, we'll talk about Almond Thompson later. But to think like, that, that was maybe an argument at the beginning of the season versus where we are now, where it's like, ah, would Detroit give up Tobias Harris and Tim Hardaway for Butler? And that's it. I don't know. Tobias is playing pretty well. Like, that's where we're at with this Butler thing, which is insane.

[Ryan Rosillo]

You might be right about that. And I think there's. There's a bunch of different things there that I like. I've never been special enough to compare myself with Jimmy Butler. Right. Like, I. And I'm not. I'm not saying this because whatever our dynamic is, but your career, like, I think at times you have been special enough to probably get away with.

[Bill Simmons]

We don't have to. I'm not comparing ourselves to him in that way. I'm just comparing, like, what it's like to work for somebody when you're really frustrated with them. He's way more frustrated, I think, than either of us have ever been with anyone we worked with. Like, he's doing shit, but he's doing stuff that. He's doing stuff that, you know, that's. That's just seems like he's trying to sabotage everything.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Well, right when the first quote came out, when this thing first got picked up, it was like, Jimmy hasn't even started yet. Which I was like, yeah, because we know the deal. You know, I think a lot of this stuff is, like, personal equity, where if, like, Tim Duncan ever had a problem with anything, I think we'd all immediately take Tim Duncan's side. Cause you just go, whoa. Like, Tim Duncan's upset about something. And with Butler, even though I think there's a version of the Chicago events where I would understand him, I thought the Wiggins Towns thing at the time was funny, because I don't think he was wrong. Philadelphia decided to go with the young guys. So every exit, there's some drama. But with this, there's another part of this that is just the reality of what's happening. This new cba, when we first talked about it, you're like, man, this kind of looks like a hard cap. This. This looks like there's really limited flexibility. I think another motivation behind some of this was that, hey, Guess what? If you have a four year extension about to kick in and you want to ask for a trade and you want to ask for a trade to like one team that's already pretty good. We're going to set up something that not only curbs spending, which is the primary motivation behind this, but we're also going to like make it really hard for you guys to decide, like, sorry, I'm just out of here now. And you have to do this. And I think that a lot of star players.

[Bill Simmons]

Good point.

[Ryan Rosillo]

It's becoming a wake up call. And when you're 35 and you miss a lot of games and your personal history is that it ends up in some sort of bullshit thing that's a distraction for the basketball team, like, no kidding, there's not a great market for them.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you'd think like in the old days, I want to go to Phoenix. All right, how are we exactly? They spent three weeks. Now it's like, yeah, you're not going to Phoenix. Guess what? We're not taking Bradley Beal. We're not. There's no scenario where we take them. Nobody else is taking them. And on top of the Bradley Beals and no trade clause, so Phoenix is out. Stop saying you want to go there. I think it's at the spite point where they just send them, you know, this last thing that happened this week, now it just seems like they'll. They don't even care. They just want to get him out of there and try to move on. I think it's gotten that bad. So he could. I don't know why they want to be another team.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, I don't know why they'd want to be in the Jimmy Butler business. I think. I can't dispute the fact of, like, whatever the trade market was for him versus now, it's, it's diminished because you're like, here we go again. And it's all fresh and when it's actually happening and then you have to sit in their front office and your ownership and your coaches and go like, like, I like the Memphis basketball part of it. But then when you hear the quote being like, don't send him to Memphis, like anywhere but Memphis, right? So if you're Memphis and you're like, hey, we're pretty good. Not great, but we're pretty good. So, yeah, he raises our top five ceiling, which I think a lot of teams just do, like, hey, if these are the five guys are rolling out there to close a playoff game, this is better than the five we have, right? Now it makes sense. But if you're like, what if he opts in at 50 million and then he's 36 and we don't give him an extension? So even though I. There's not.

[Bill Simmons]

There's only one team, right?

[Ryan Rosillo]

There's.

[Bill Simmons]

You have to be desperate to do this and like taking, pushing the Detroit aside and teams that would be, oh, it'd be fun if they got Jimmy Butler. Golden State's the only team that's actually desperate. Golden State is at an actual crossroads as a franchise, as an organization for the decade. You know, they're just not good enough. And the stat that they're 1 in 20 heading into the fourth quarter when they're not winning, to me that's like, we gotta go one way or the other, guys. Are we going to try to get better and do some sort of crazy all in trade or are we going to start going the other way and start trading off people and just tanking this season and throwing it away and do we go that way? But right now they're in some middle ground and that's where like, you know, if you and I are in the warriors office with the Lake Oaks and the GM and they're like, what do you guys think? At some point I'd be like, look, man, I think when Jimmy gets traded, he's going to be really good. I think he's going to be possessed and you might get an awesome year out of him. And this is the only way you could flip your destiny as a franchise. You might be able to get this guy for 12 cents on the dollar and in a playoff series, nobody's going to want to see him. Do you two years from now? Do you care two years from now? You're going nowhere anyway. So that's the one team I think I could see. And there's trades. They have a bunch of contracts. Wiggins would have to be in it, but that's the only one I see.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I just would be scared to death if I'm Dunleavy and I'm lake up and I'm going, okay, so we bring him in. Everything you made sense, said made sense. But you know, his agent's like, okay, so you know, what do you think about tacking on those two years for him? It's a no. Well, if it's a no, the bigger.

[Bill Simmons]

Question is that just gone now based on how this year has gone. Like, hey, his agent's Bernie Lee, who's a very nice guy. Hey Bernie, Jimmy's in every two years contract at this Point. That's just the way it is. There's nobody in the league that's going to go four for him based on the behavior, that's what he's forfeited. On the bright side, if he's still really good every two years, he'll get an awesome contract. I think he's in that James Harden kind of zone now where it's like.

[Ryan Rosillo]

If he was 32, he doesn't play enough. For me, it's a no. And you're right about the basketball part of it, whether it's them, whether it's Memphis, because it does raise your student. But if I have to sit there and be honest with the people that are in charge of my employment.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Ryan Rosillo]

If you're working in the front office side of this, answering to your owner and going, yeah, let's just trust that it's going to work out. With his track record, I wouldn't feel good about saying yes to that. I would just go like, look, it probably it'd be one thing if he was younger. And you go, hey, maybe the west isn't, and it isn't as deep or doesn't feel as deep. Halfway through the season as we thought it would be this summer, OKC still looks like a monster. I mean, we can run through every team and I could tell you concerns I have about all the contenders, but it would have to be more of like, a guarantee of what's possible. And even adding him doesn't. Like, what does it actually guarantee about what Golden State can do in the playoffs?

[Bill Simmons]

The only reason you do it is because you love Curry. You feel like you owe it to him to at least be competitive for a couple rounds. And this is a way to honor that. That's it. You're not beating, you're not winning four straight playoff rounds with or without Jimmy Butler. I don't think.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Let me, let me throw something at you here, because you mentioned it with the Riley thing, and they felt like really betrayed by Riley being upset when Butler was basically like, if I was playing, we'd beat Boston. We beat the Knicks. By the way, they weren't beating that Boston team last year or last playoffs with Butler. So it was kind of a crazy thing. And then think about, like, Riley's age. He's the same age as my dad. I'm like, imagine if my dad had to do a press conference about a player.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm so glad you brought this up. Riley's old. Like, he, he's acting erratically, which makes sense because he's like 8080 year olds are erratic.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I went to go see Gillis and Bill Burr last night for the fire benefit, and Gillis had this whole routine of, like, you know, Biden didn't really get enough credit. Like, imagine. Imagine if you had someone in your family who was 84 who had to, like, go out there and speak to the world every day. Could have been that much worse. Now, look, Riley, at no point do I think, like, what's going on with this guy? But he deserves, like, Riley's done enough in his basketball life to have this stance. And then when I think about, like, how other teams operate and everybody operates in absolute fear where they have to. When their best player goes off, they have to find some way through PR to craft some way that they're supportive. But it's like, so what? So what happened? What if Riley had said nothing? The bottom line is if they didn't give him the contract extension, they'd probably be in the exact same place. So, like, you can tell me that it was insulting or that that was the thing that I don't. When he didn't get the extension, when he felt like he was owed this, like, why? Because you went to the finals two years ago, which was, like, really fluky and what, five years ago?

[Bill Simmons]

He did have a great year last year, which is.

[Ryan Rosillo]

And he doesn't play. He doesn't play enough. And look, when he was playing this year, you could see you're like, what's going on with him? Like, before this even got, like, publicly bad. And it's like, so you want the extension, but you're going to mail it in for stretches.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I almost feel like he's coasting until the trade. And when he gets traded to wherever he's going to unleash holy hell. That's why the Detroit option is so fascinating to me for him, because that's a team that would actually need him. That's a team that just wants to be good, relevant in some way, and that's a team that has a really, really good player, you know, and they bring some things to the table. They're pretty well coached. He raises their ceiling in a way that I think is intriguing. They're not going to win the title with him. And I think that's why whoever is trading for him is not a team that he can win the title with. And I think that's another reality of this. Like, Denver's not trading for him. Even if. Even if Miami was like, all right, fine, we'll take Porter and we'll take Zeke. Najee, for four years, you can have Butler. I don't know if that changes Denver's ceiling. Like, they already have enough outside shooting problems. You know, if they were playing worse, I might think about it. But I actually really like the way they're playing. Even though they lost last night, we'll see what happens.

[Ryan Rosillo]

You're totally, you're totally ruling out Phoenix.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think anyone wants Beal. And even if they want to be. I don't know if he would agree to go to the trade. But I, I watched the game last night. Like, I just don't think Beal's good. He's fine. Like, he's a rotation guy, but for 50 million a year, that's the worst contract in the league. What am I. And he doesn't play every time. You know, I think there's a reason, like, Phil, like, Phoenix has tried to move away from that big three model with him. And I think there's a reason everybody is like, yeah, no thanks. Cool. Oh, I get Bradley Beal this year and the next two. No, thanks. Like, everyone throws Chicago and, you know, could he go to Milwaukee? Why would Milwaukee want Bradley Beal? They're going to have him and Dame at the same time trying to play defense. That's crazy. I just can't find a team for him either.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I guess I just wonder why Phoenix would flip the unprotected 2031 for these other pieces without some inclination of what's possible for him before the deadline. Unless it was just, hey, we're all in now. Like, when you have Durant, you're all in. So is Beal better than mid level players? Yes. He's really low on what the actual acquisition is.

[Bill Simmons]

Can I stop you for a second?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

That trade was horrible. That was the all time. We took a $2 bill and turned it into 3/4 and a dime because it gives us more flexibility. It's like, that's a team that. They're at the blackjack table, losing hand down, going, give me more. I'm going to double down.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Oh, you're. Can I talk about trade?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, the actual Phoenix trade. You're acting like Phoenix is a rational team that puts thought into the shit they do. That trade was idiotic. I'm not trading well.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Because they have nothing. Because they have nothing and they're already all in with this group. I think the argument is that, well, like, what are we doing? We're. We're going to hold on to assets in 2031. Like, we have to find any possible Way to upgrade this group. Because once you did the Durant trademark, this is. This is how you were operating.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but at that point, you're Tim Daly's character in the Sopranos, the screenwriter who's on the 48 hour gambling binge just getting killed. And he's like, just gimme 25 grand more. I'm going to win this back. That's Phil, that's Phoenix at HB right now. Just give me. Let's split the picks up. We'll have some flexibility. We'll try to win this back. It's like this ship has sailed. You're not. You're not doing anything and you're not getting Jimmy Butler for what you have. And if. If anyone takes Bradley Beal and allows you to get Jimmy Butler, I can't imagine a team in the league that's dumb enough. Maybe I'll be wrong. Maybe they'll cut this clip out and be like, I don't see why anybody would want Bradley Beal. 50 million this year, 50 million the next two in the second apron era. Who wants that?

[Ryan Rosillo]

I'd be fascinated. Like, what he would actually waive his no trade clause for. Because this is somebody who actually didn't go to Washington the entire time they lost. Like, we kept waiting for that to happen. And then I remember hearing like, he's probably just going to wait until he can get that five year extension with them as the incumbent team. And he is okay with just kind of being there. And then I wonder if Beal goes. You think I'm upset about coming off the bench? You think I'm upset about taking 13 shots a game? Yeah, I like it here. I like Phoenix. My family likes Phoenix.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, you can't.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You can't humiliate me. I'm good.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I was. I stayed with the Wizards for years. On purpose. You think this bugs me?

[Bill Simmons]

I just called my accountant. I just can't believe how much money I'm going to make the rest of the year. I'm fine. Let's take a break. We got to talk trade value. The fanduel kick of destiny is back. And this time, it's every Manning for himself. This super bowl, two legends take the field in a sudden death field goal showdown. Peyton versus Eli, live from New Orleans. One kick to claim ultimate family bragging rights. Who will rise to the moment? Pick your winner now and the FanDuel app. And if you back the riot, brother, you'll earn a share of $10 million in bonus bets. The FanDuel kick of destiny. 3 Make your free pick. Don't forget to tune in to watch the showdown live during The Super Bowl 59 pregame show on Fox at 3pm Eastern. May the best Manning win. FanDuel official partner of Super Bowl l must be 21 plus on President Select States or 18 plus on President DC. No purchase necessary. Bonus issued as non withdrawable bonus bets that expire seven days after receipt. Restrictions apply. Void where prohibited. Seat [e-mail], gambling problem call 100 GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com this episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. In basketball, a blockbuster trade can make or break your playoff run before the deadline. GMs across the league scourge for the right data and insights, hoping their moves pay off February 6th trade deadline this year. By the way, just like in basketball, growing your small business in 2025 all comes down to how well you can build your team. That starts with better insights from LinkedIn with unique skills and interests to the connections you have in common. LinkedIn has the strongest hiring data and insights to help you identify the right professionals so you can make the best hiring decisions. LinkedIn pairs you with the high quality candidates you need to make your business grow and flex flourish. LinkedIn also lets you go beyond candidates who are actively applying in a given week. 171 million LinkedIn members aren't actively seeking jobs, but they are open to new opportunities. Who isn't? That's a big pool of people you don't wanna miss out on. And who knows, one of them could be your next All Star player. So hire smarter in the new year. Find your next Great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com Simmons Once again, LinkedIn.com Simmons to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. All right, so the trade value rules really quickly. It's not this is not a top hundred list. This has to do with age of the players, salaries mattering, contract length, happiness and degrees. Right? So it's if you're talking about one player that's 35 versus an up and coming star that's 23 as crazy, Ahmed Thompson's a good example. Yeah, Amend Thompson for Kevin Durant. If it was just this year, maybe you'd want Kevin Durant for the playoff run, but big picture as an asset for your team for age, rookie, contract, the whole thing. You'd want Amman Thompson. You'd want to be in the business of him for the next 15 years. So that's a good way to think about it.

[Ryan Rosillo]

It's also a great name. Just to interrupt quickly because after last night I was like, will he have Amen in his top 10?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, here's the thing. So I've been working on this list for two weeks and there was a version of it a couple days ago where I had him 20. And I emailed it to a friend of mine and I was like, does anything jump out? And he's like, jesus, you have Thompson that high. And I'm like, I actually do. I don't know if you watched the last four weeks, but what's happening here is really, really, really crazy. The athleticism, the defense, the rebounding, the fact that he's starting to figure out how to create his own shot, how to beat guys off the dribble he did to win the game in Boston last night. Like, what happened in Boston last night wasn't like, oh my God, what a great game. Like, he's been moving this way for five weeks and he's the best ass on that team. And it's not close. I think he's an automatic hang up. If you call Houston now, they don't need. They're like, what? No, we're not trading him. They hang up.

[Ryan Rosillo]

This is a compliment. But imagine when he's good, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Imagine when he could shoot threes, right?

[Ryan Rosillo]

And I don't know if he's. He's going to be like somebody you're really worried about, but there are things that he's doing. Like he was even the last. Again, you're right. It wasn't just about last night against Boston. You're looking at these rebounding numbers, but also, and I like it, even though it doesn't look great. Like they're letting him get into kind of a pull up jumper and it doesn't look very good. But I like that they're allowing him or they would want him to make those mistakes because you're never going to develop any of that stuff. You're never going to become the best version of yourself, the most well rounded. If you're afraid to do that stuff in game. Like, it's the old Ben Simmons thing where it's like, cool videos, bro. But you don't do any of those things that you show us in practice because you just, you've eliminated those from your arsenal because you're just not comfortable. And I love to see young players, especially somebody who was raw as him. And when you did the draft work on him, you're like, man, he's such an insane athlete and this is why people draft guys like this, and then they get mad being like, oh, they just drafted the athlete. And you're like, yeah, but this is the version of, like, the best case scenario of, like, if this guy ever figures it out with his gifts and the fact that he's like a 1% athlete, I want him making some of those mistakes. I want him pulling up off the dribble and maybe taking an ugly jumper right now. Because the only way it's ever going to get better is when he's confident enough to actually apply some of this stuff in games. So it was. When you sent me the list this morning, it was the first name I was looking for because.

[Bill Simmons]

Because the question is, how high should he be?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. You called him a 1% athlete. I think he's like a 0.1% athlete.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I think you're the best ever do it. I don't know how you.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm just like, I. I don't. Like. I just think athletically, he's on some rare plane that only a few guys I've seen have been at. Like, when we're talking, like, young Kawhi Young, Pippen, Westbrook, Derrick Rose, those early years, mj, obviously there's. It's like a very small list, and he's on it. And you saw some of the stuff he was doing on both ends last night. Like, even Tatum going by him and getting, you know, layups or shots he wants. Thompson's always almost there. Like, he almost blocks it. Like, he. You really have to work to get by him. I just love watching him play. And I think the thing that is probably so hard to figure out when he. Where was he? Overtime Elite.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

How do you figure out the competitiveness piece for a kid who's like, 17, playing in some goofy league? Right. The thing that's great about him is how, like, relentlessly competitive he is. Like, I just. I'm such a huge fan. And for whatever reason Jabari got hurt, they went a little smaller with him. It unlocks something. And now, if I were them, I wouldn't trade for anybody. You know, they're a two seed. They've had some big wins this week. I. I wouldn't mess with this. Just, let's get. Let's see how far we can go. Let's keep pushing Thompson a little bit. Let's nudge and see really what's there short term, long term, and next year we'll figure it out. Or this summer. Right. I think that's the move, because the wins they had this week you really have to start thinking, eh, but what if they did? What if they did this? Could they like, make the finals? We've seen teams like out of nowhere and we've argued about this in the past. If you have a chance to make the finals, how far do you go? In this case, I'd probably wait because I think all their flexibility comes this summer once they can trade those Sengun and Jalen Green deals. And so you want to know heading into the summer what to do.

[Ryan Rosillo]

The other thing about this trademark, it is just a hit list of guys I'm not a huge fan of.

[Bill Simmons]

It really is.

[Ryan Rosillo]

That's the rumor.

[Bill Simmons]

It's the solo All Stars.

[Ryan Rosillo]

So Jimmy's the only one in. If, if I knew he was bought in, I go, okay, you know, let's. Let's do this. And you can figure out like where he fits in. Because as much as they need Van Vliet, you worry a little bit about loading up on a small primary guy throughout the course of the playoffs. You know, Brooks is so important to them, especially what he does defensively. And then Jalen is kind of like an every other night guy. And I thought he had turned.

[Bill Simmons]

You're giving him that.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, I know.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he's a once a week guy.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

At least right now because.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Because as great as we are, like as much fun as a man is and what he could potentially be, I still have a hard time believing you're like running something for him with the ball in his hands to like get you the bucket late. I don't know that he's there yet.

[Bill Simmons]

They did it yesterday, four seconds left. They ran the play for him and they were like, just beat Jalen, Bruno, Jaylen Brown off the dribble and just do some crazy athlete thing. And even as he's like what you said earlier, it's almost like the baby deer on ice thing sometimes with him in offense where it's like he's moving so fast he can't even control it. But he still got the shot off. He broke Jalen's ankles. It's the most fascinating development of the year for me as like when we're talking about. I'm not surprised Wemby ascended the way he did. I'm not surprised SGA is having the area is. Neither of us are surprised about anything with the Cavs. This is Thompson becoming like a top 20 trade asset. I did not have that on my bingo card.

[Ryan Rosillo]

And I don't think I like the Cavs. I didn't, I didn't Think they were going to get off to like a 73 win pace? A third?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's starting to fade a little bit. Finally when. When you're shoot. When you're shooting 50, 40, 90 for or 50, 40, 80. First three months, I'm not going to go. I won't do all like the honorable mentions, second apron casualties. Can't believe they missed the top 80. Toughest omissions. But I did send you the list. And the toughest omissions for me, I'll just rip through them quickly. Reed Shepherd, Jaden McDaniels, Anthony Black, Clingan, Matheran Dillingham, Beef Stew, who I love at 4 years 60, but couldn't put him on. Terry Eason, Sohan Thompson's brother, Peyton Pritchard, Mark Williams and Nemhardt. Is there anybody that jumped out on that list? You're like, oh, man, they should have made the trade value.

[Ryan Rosillo]

No, because I think any of these lists, like, the first thing I did when I got it was like, don't go, oh, I can't believe you did this. Because whenever you have to do these lists, like, good luck. Whenever. Even though when I did the top 100 that I then threw away so I wasn't able to submit it for ringer.com I had such a hard time with. With 11 through 30.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Cause I'd go like, do I really think this guy is like a top 20 player? And you go like, okay, we'll come up with the 20 names ahead of him. And that's the weird part of the league ranking stuff. And granted, this is different because of age and contract and all that kind of stuff, but I just. The. The names start to add up pretty quickly. I think maybe Matherin, just because I've loved. I've loved what he's been able to do in big spots offensively, and I.

[Bill Simmons]

Like how competitive he is. Oh, dude, he's a real, real alpha. Like, there's no way he hasn't had conversations with buddies. Like, where one of his buddies like, yo, this should be your team, not Halibur's. Like, I know. Just waiting. Just waiting for it to become my team. Right.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Like, would you rather have Kobe White or Matheran? I mean, on your list you'd rather have Kobe White?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, because I like his contract and he puts up numbers and stats and he plays hard. But it's a good argument. All right, I'll bold Matheran. Maybe.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I think.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe there's somebody.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I think Tari, you know, like, I like Tari better than some of the names that you have in the top 85. But.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, wait, hold that thought, because I have to explain. This year is a top 85. It's unusual. There were years in the mid 2000s when it was a top 40, and I was barely getting to 40. Like, barely. Like squeezing shoehorning names in to try to get to 40. This year, I really probably could have done a top hundred. The league is so deep, you don't really realize it until you're making a list like this. So the top 85. The. The highest group is Group O, Quality assets. And just going from 85 to 75. Nicole Vucevich, who on the right night could have 40 points. Dejounte Murray, Kaminga, Jalen Wells, Herb Jones, Jarred McCain, Walker Kessler, Kobe White, Jabari Smith, DeAndre Hunt. DeAndre Hunter has a good contract. And Cam Johnson, number 75. So that's the first group. And your question. Eason was a tough one for me, too, because I really like him, and I didn't know if I was overrating him or not.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, I can see like, hey, you know what? What is he? And that's kind of the stuff we're talking about here with Thompson, where I tend to. I don't want to say overvalue, because I don't think I'm wrong about it, but I'm going to value the guys with the ball in their hands that can get me multiple, like, possessions. Like, hey, Cade. Like, Cade Cunningham, for me, is somebody where you go, hey, fix this. Fix us right now. Yeah, and clearly it's different with Detroit now that they've actually invested in spacing around him. But we'll get to Cade when we get to him. But, like, that's always going to be kind of like my default setting of, can you get me a bucket?

[Bill Simmons]

Or can you stop the other team from getting a bucket? Or really, like, it's that simple? Because that's. Yeah. But I still have some defense guys on this list that I'm like, I really value the defense, but I don't.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Think it's a 5050 split.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think it's 60, 40. Thanks for doing splits with me. You know, I like percentages and splits. It might be 61.39. The more I think of that. See, what is wrong with 59, 41.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Giving us flat numbers like that? I was expecting, like, 63.5.

[Bill Simmons]

So in this quality assets list, the hardest one for me, whether to include him or not, was Dejounte Murray, who's got a fatter contract and whose teams never seem to do well. And I don't know whether it's his fault or not, but at some point, if you're going to hit your 30s and this just keeps happening, where every team you're on is either disappointing or underachieving, and you're one of the main guys I have to look at you, but that's one. And then Kamingo was the other one just because he's a free agent next year. And I think that complicates the asset piece because if you trade for him, you also have to pay him. I put Jalen Wells in there because he's playing big minutes for this Memphis team and he's guarding the best guy in the other team every game. And at some point that's. That's gotta matter. Like, they're winning with him. He always has the toughest defensive assignment. And I think for a team relying on two rookies like that, with Edie, too, like, it's been. It's really unusual to see a team that's good relying on guys who. It's their first year in the league and in, like, significant roles like Haiti come in and we're going to run offense through you and protect the rim. Like, it's unusual. Anyway, I really. I really like Wells, so I want to put him on there. All right, next group. This group is called before the second apron. Shit. I absolutely would have hung up, but what are you thinking? So this is six guys. Number 74, Porzingis, Aaron Gordon, Damian Lillard, Zach Levine, Drew Holiday and Pascal Siakam. All them big contracts that you would have felt better about two, three years ago did. Is Dame too high, too low, or just right for you?

[Ryan Rosillo]

This feels low, even if he hasn't been my favorite throughout all this. And I do wonder too, like, when we were talking about the heat at the very top, like, what if Dame had gone there and it was the same situation with Butler because Butler's not getting the contract? Would Dame be going? I just wonder if Dame at any point is going. This actually worked out better for me. Despite the fact that Milwaukee, probably more based on health than anything, has been disappointing. When you bring in somebody like Dame to pair with Giannis with this, the Gordon one is tough man, because Gordon with Denver is worth so much more to them. Then as soon as Gordon is away from Jokic, he's just not going to be the same kind of player.

[Bill Simmons]

So his contract, this is year one, he had an extension, so it's basically five years and 1 50. So it's pricey. It's not crazy. Right. And he plays really well with Jokic, so I think that makes his value higher just because, you know, it's. It's just to. Jokic is at such a crucial point of his career, and he's such an important player, not just for this generation, but just historically. Like, I just know Aaron Gordon's good with him, so I'm not trading him. You know, it would. It would really have to take something for me to give up. Give him up.

[Ryan Rosillo]

So when you label this second apron thing, which I think you're absolutely right about, like, Pozingis and Drew, and you wonder, like, after this version of the Celtics that there's a second apron transaction that happens there with Boston depending on the season. You mean in July, you mean? Emphatically? Yes. You mean.

[Bill Simmons]

You mean next month?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Don't you think Gordon's a no because of basketball first and contract second, if at all?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I don't. I just think he plays too well with Yokage. And as long as. As long as you have Yokage, you have a chance to win the title. That contract's not prohibitive. The Murray contract's probably a little more problematic, you know, if. Although he's been really good the last couple weeks, and I think we're all a little happier with what we're seeing, but I would be more worried about that, because you can't miss on the $50 million contract. You can overpay a little bit on the guys making 30.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Levine should be behind him is my point.

[Bill Simmons]

Levine should be behind Gordon. Okay.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Do you like Levine?

[Bill Simmons]

I do. I. I'm stunned. It's another shocking thing that's happening.

[Ryan Rosillo]

How did that happen?

[Bill Simmons]

Because I've watched him multiple times be the best guy on the court in games against really good teams, and it wasn't like once. We're talking seven, eight, nine times, where it's just. He's really hard to defend, and he's playing, I think, as well offensively as he's ever played. And I just. I value the offense. He's a 25 points a game guy that can go toe to toe with whoever at the end of a game. You know, not. Nothing like I'd rather have him than Dame at this point, because I can find. I can find point guards. I think it's much harder to find these swings that can create a shot. Like, if Golden State somehow got Zach Levine, and I don't think it would take a ton, he would be so huge for them because they have no other guy who can create a shot other than Steph. And how many times can you run Steph in a semicircle and set him picks and do little handout? Like, they have nothing else. They have nobody else. Unless till Kaminga comes back.

[Ryan Rosillo]

So you're not wrong about that. I mean, the drop off from primary score to secondary, like, shot creation guy for Golden State is so significant. And that's why, you know, granted, yes, I love Steph, but when he has, like, bad games, there'll be this group. It's usually like, LeBron weirdos and like, oh, how come Steph never, like, I don't really love that content of, like, somebody who's just done it the right way, has won multiple rings, first ballot, everything. It's like, can you guys shit on him for a couple weeks? You're like, you know what? I don't want to. And I'm not going to. Like, he missed some shots. But what he is tasked with to solve their problems offensively as the only guy, you know, other than the Schroeder acquisition. And I know, like, you could throw it back in my face, right? You could throw it right back in my face and be like, I thought you just started this podcast podcast talking about you, like bucket getters. And you're absolutely right. Like, there's moments with lavine where he looks like the most offensively talented player on the court, but there are just too many plays as a seasoned Lavine watcher, there are too many plays in there that I think everybody misses, where you're like, what were you doing here? Who are you helping do this? Why didn't you get back on defense here? And they're constant and they're. He's flawed.

[Bill Simmons]

I will fully admit he's flawed.

[Ryan Rosillo]

There's a lot with him.

[Bill Simmons]

He's a 71 trade asset. It seems fair.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I could just do it. I know. Like, I thought about doing a version of, like, something on my podcast where it was going to be one name, one game where I just watch one player the entire time. Like, that Julius Randall Heat game where I just go, you know, I'm going to rewatch this and just watch Randall. And when you really focus in the guy that you're like, how come this guy always has numbers? And how come his teams are never that good? And how come, like, he's so skilled? Like, what else is happening around this? And you go, well, that's not good. And that's not good. And that's. And I talk about this stuff all the time with certain players, and I think Levine's the epitome of that.

[Bill Simmons]

Jalen's had a couple tough ones. Jaylen Brown has had a couple tough ones this year in that respect. Like, if you just watch him where.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Me not helping on the maxi inbounds.

[Bill Simmons]

He'Ll end up with the stats, but if you watch the game he does, he'll have games where he just does 20 things you don't like and you could. You could make a YouTube clip. I just think he's had a really rough season compared to what happened last year, where he really, I think, won a lot of us over as this guy has taken a step up. And I feel like this year he's gone back to where he was two years ago. And there's just really. Especially watching them in person two nights in a row, it just. Just is. He's got been really messy this year, and I'm waiting for it to not be the case anymore, and I'm just not sure.

[Ryan Rosillo]

But at least we know at, like, the highest level he is. He's delivered well.

[Bill Simmons]

That's the thing. So you're hoping in April it doesn't become messy anymore and it's back. But I'm just saying the regular season's.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Been messy, but there are some scorers. When I think about their playoff resume, and I'm like, so you've been doing this how many years? And there's nothing significant. There's not a moment for me to look at and like, look, I'm with you. There's. There's stuff with Jaylen Brown and this year, the shooting and. But you know, when. When you're that young, like, we've argued about Murray, when players who are like, have had something really good in their past, have these, like, I even was stubborn about Keldon Johnson. I'm like, is he just going to be terrible now? He's going to be terrible. And I feel like he turned the corner a little bit this season. So even though the Jalen stuff, I would agree with you, has been frustrating, at least we've seen that before. At least somebody with Levine, like, what. What are you throwing at me? With Lavigne and be like, remember, remember this series?

[Bill Simmons]

He. Well, he doesn't have it. But I do think if you're going to complain about the rules, not you, but just in general, the second apron, how hard it is to do trades. The one good thing that's happened with all this is it's forced guys like Levine to be like, I guess I'm stuck here. I'm Just going to have to play well. And he's had. For what? For what he is. I think he's achieved whatever his talent ceiling is. I think he's achieved that. I also think now that Lonzo's kind of back. Like, Lonzo's getting thrown in these trade rumors. He's an expiring contract. 20 million if you watch the Bulls. I'm not positive I would even trade Lonzo. I kind of like the Bulls. I'm not even sure they should do anything.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Wait.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know. I don't feel like any of their. They're not going to actually get anything for any of their players. So it's like, well, why am I doing anything? I'll just make the play in and try to upset somebody. I don't. It doesn't seem like any of their players are properly valued. It's like, I wouldn't just give away Vucevich. Oh, thanks. You're giving me two twos for Vucevich. I'm not doing that. I'm not like giving away Levine and taking back a bad contract. I'll trade Levine. I'll get Bradley Beal back. Why would I do that? Like, why would I give away Lonzo? I like watching Lonzo.

[Ryan Rosillo]

They owe their pick this year, though, so they have to get into the line.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, then go higher and just lose your pick outside the lottery. Let's take a break and then a really fun next category. This episode is brought to you by Rocket Money. You sign up for something, forget about it. After the trial period ends, then you're charged month after month after month. The subscriptions are there, but you're not using them. In fact, I just learned that 85% of people have at least one paid subscription going unused each month. Thanks to Rocket Money, you can see all your subscriptions in one place. Cancel the ones you're not using anymore. Now you're saving money. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions. You have so many of these monitors your spending and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. See all of your subscriptions in one place. Know exactly where your money is going. For ones you don't want anymore. Rocket Money can help you cancel them. Rocket money over 5 million users. They've saved a total of 500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all the app's premium features. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions. Reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to RocketMoney.comBill today that's RocketMoney.com Bill this episode is brought to you by Paramount. Ridley Scott's return to ancient rome and Gladiator 2 is nothing short of awesome. And now you can stream it at home on Paramount. Years after the death of Maximus, Lucius is forced into the Coliseum after his home is conquered by a tyrannical twin Roman emperors. With the future of the empire at stake, he must find strength and honor to return the glory of Rome to its people. Gladiator 2 now streaming on paramountplus.com rated R. Next category, possible studs on rookie deals. Going from number 68 to 62, Koulibale Sar Messi. Did you expect this from him?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Eve's I didn't expect this. I mean, he looks incredible and he's so confident too, but there's no hesitation on him. His aggressiveness, they. I feel bad for the Pelicans front office.

[Bill Simmons]

Cause when you're in 35, like, and I know that it's nine of their.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Players, they have done such a good job through the draft and they have just, you know, their main guys aren't healthy. So it's not a mystery.

[Bill Simmons]

I have him at 66. Wear at 65. A stunning turn of events for him. And I was guilty of saying it too. It's like, oh, man, imagine if Miami had taken connect or Jared McCain and then Ware. The last few weeks has looked like the kind of young big at a cheap price that anyone would want. Reese Sachet. I'm never selling my stock on him. Kayson Wallace at 63 and then Derek Lively at 62. Those are our possible studs on rookie deals. And for trade value purposes, having those guys, if those guys can play a rotation role and you're paying 4 million, 3 million, 6 million, that's where you want to be next group? Nope. He's worth way more to us than to you. Number 61, Devin Vassell. Now this trade value starts to get fun right around here. Number 60, Zubots. Wasn't prepared for him to be that high in the list, but I don't know how many Clipper games I have to watch where he's the best center in the game. His contract is 3 for 58. Too high, too low or right range for him.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I love Zoo, okay? I think he fights his ass off all the time. There's some good rim protection stuff in there as well. His team.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he's a big part of why they win.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I don't know if anybody will do this because I'm not going to do it. But I'd love to know the success rate of pocket passes because I think a few guys did it a couple years ago and then everybody decided that when the big rolled and the two stayed with them, they were like, I'm going to do this sick look away bounce pass and then it's going to hit somebody's feet or it's never going to work. I think the success rate on this pocket pass that every player is obsessed with off of two staying with them is so low. But a lot of times too, they're screwing the big by trying to even throw it to these guys and Zoo for like the bigs that are out there. I'm like, you sure? Like, I know what the play calls for and that you think this is the right move, but can the guy actually catch it? I'm a big ZOO fan, man, so I thought this is fine.

[Bill Simmons]

Instead of a pocket pass, I would call it the Tibia pass. It always ends up somewhere between the guy's feet and his knee and the guy's seven feet tall. It's like, I'm pretty sure he's not going to be able to take that pass. Jaylen.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I don't even know if he throws.

[Bill Simmons]

A lot of these.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Like, hey, do you see limbs in the way of the pass?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Well then don't, don't make it. It's like, nah, dude. Two stayed with me. Have to throw the pocket pass every time.

[Bill Simmons]

Zoo. Number 60, James Harden. Number 59.

[Ryan Rosillo]

The deliverer of what? A comeback pocket pass. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So two clippers in the top 60. Next three I'm going to put in a row. Number 58, Scotty Barnes. Number 57, Trey Young. Number 56, Jamal Murray. Big contracts, contracts you had to do. I don't think the team feels awesome about the contracts, but you kind of. It's like those no recourse contracts. How would you rank those three? I have them. Murray ahead of Young and Barnes. Is that the right, is that the right order for you?

[Ryan Rosillo]

It feels like if Paolo's 8, Scotty Barnes shouldn't be 59 or 58.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, so I'm one of the many reasons I'm glad you're here. I don't see the Scotty Barnes thing like some others and I might be too down on him, but I do think when you're the best guy in a team and the team doesn't win at some point, some of that's got to be on you because I like, I think this, the Toronto team's actually pretty interesting. If you, if you watch them, they have guys all over the place. Even like Agbaji. It's like a 45% three point shooter. He's like their ninth man. Like, they have skilled players. I don't understand why they're not better. Um, so anyway, you could talk me into him being 38 or you could have talked me into being here. And I, I aired on. I haven't really seen him be an impact guy on a winning team. Trae Young at least has been an impact guy on a winning team. Jamal Murray won a title. Tyler hero, who's number 55, and I think he's been a more efficient, better offensive player than all those other guys. I just would rather have Tyler Herro at 3 for 93 than pay the max for Scotty Barnes.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Well, look, this is probably the wrong time to be ranking Scotty Barnes because it's getting worse. The efficiency stuff like, continues to decline over a four year stretch. He's back under 30% from three. I think you always knew that he was a weird player, but in a good way because he could do so many different things. But you know, back to like the primary scoring thing, like, I don't think he was ever going to be like a cade. And even though Paolo, like, people would get on him with his efficiency stuff, especially last year, like, that was the big Paolo Scotty Barnes argument last year. It's like, yeah, but are you watching the shots that Paolo was tasked with taking with all these other guys?

[Bill Simmons]

Please factor that in, right?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Like, watch and see how difficult some of the shots are for this dude because he's left with the ball to bail them out of every one of these possessions. So I think if you did like a four year thing of Scotty and you know, again, it's your list. So I don't want to sit here and go through 10 straight guys. I'm happy to low two.

[Bill Simmons]

No, this is one of the ones I really wanted to hash out. Like, he's averaging 28 and 6, 28 and 6 this season. He's shooting 27% from 3. And I guess my fear for him and this would actually be a good outcome for his career. But there was that Iguodala stretch in Philly when he was miscast as the lead guy who's like, I'm gonna be the guy who carries our offense at the end of games and I'm our number one guy. And guess what? The team never won. And then once that got repositioned as like, no, I'm actually an awesome Overqualified number three guy or number four guy and I'm going to guard the best guy on the other team and I'm going to learn how to hit three point shot and I'm just like completely additive. And then he found his destiny. I wonder if that's Scotty Barnes. I wonder if he's just miscast right now is we're going to run our offense through Scotty Barnes. I don't think you're going to win games if you're running the offense through him. At least the player is now.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, but the thing is, I think is his playmaking is actually pretty good. But it's just we talked about Toronto this summer. It's like look at who they're paying. Look how much they're paying all these guys. And there's nights where I like RJ Barrett, but it feels like everybody's a slot up too high on a priority list for a basketball team.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like a movie where they couldn't find the guy to put on the poster and it's a bunch of character actors and role players and it's like, ah, I don't know. Kind of wish we had Nick Cage in this one.

[Ryan Rosillo]

If you were Lawrence Frank in Toronto called and offered Scotty Barnes from Norm Powell. You're not saying no.

[Bill Simmons]

As a straight up deal though, like Scotty's making. Well, I don't mid-40s, but that's part of the trade by thing. Norm's making 17 million a year, averaging 24 points a game. So you have to factor in the salary. Do I want to Pay Scotty Barnes 45 or Norm Powell 17? Whatever the numbers are, that's where this gets hard because if I'm paying Scotty the number I'm paying him, I only have money to pay two, two and a half guys that much money, right. So now I'm all in. He's got to be one of my best two guys on a team trying to win the title. And I don't know if he's that guy yet.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Do you think Miami would say no to Scotty Barnes for Tyler Herro?

[Bill Simmons]

I do.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Really?

[Bill Simmons]

When you factor in the salaries, yeah, if I'd rather pay Tyler Hero 30 million. But you might be right, that's why we're doing this.

[Ryan Rosillo]

My fear is that because the numbers are down the way that they are.

[Bill Simmons]

And you know what?

[Ryan Rosillo]

You know, even, even if we didn't like Toronto, which we both didn't like Toronto this summer and the record bears it out, but you're right, like, there are some nights with them where I'll go, oh, like, RJ's having a big night, and be like, oh, this is why they wanted Purdle back, you know? But they've. They've also had a really disjoint. Like, they haven't had much consistency for long stretches this season of. Of having a bunch of guys be available, too.

[Bill Simmons]

Would you. Do you think the Celtics would trade Derek White for Scotty Burns if Ange were there?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah. Cause Ainge would just go give me the potential talent ceiling.

[Bill Simmons]

But you're taking on, like, 15 million extra a year.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah. Well, then now we're talking second apron. Now you're.

[Bill Simmons]

Second apron's a part of this, though. Yeah, that's.

[Ryan Rosillo]

That's a different trade. You see, I don't think there's any way. Here's. Whenever we're doing this exercise, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

If right now is like, the only time in the last couple years that we would say Miami would turn down Scotty Barnes for Tyler Herro, is that when we're making mistake.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, I. I'm going to move him down, and I'm going to put him in a new spot. And yet I actually have a better category you talked me into. I'll move them up 10 spots, and I might be wrong. I will fully admit I might be too glass half empty. A couple guys I'm a little too glass half empty on.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Look, you want to run the numbers on it? It just. I was like, man. And maybe it's because I've been so used to the Paolo Scotty argument, and I'm like, they're 50 slots apart on this one, and it's not like I want Scotty over Paolo, but I was like, damn, 56.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, Paolo's another one that I wasn't sure of the right ranking for him. All right, so we'll go 59, Harden. 58, Trey Young, 56, Jamal. 57, Jamal Murray, 56, Hero. And then 55, Isaiah Hartenstein, who is just a winning player on a good contract. And I value what he does when he's out there. His team plays better. I don't. And I just feel like they wouldn't trade him. I think he has an incredible amount of value for them, and that's. That.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Is Trey too low?

[Bill Simmons]

Which way would you put him higher? Into the 40s, or would you put him backwards? Because he's got a lot of intrinsic value to the Hawks and to the franchise as, like, their guy, and they built a pretty nice set of assets around him that complement what he does. But I also am not sure what his trade value would be around the league.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Well, it wasn't very good this summer.

[Bill Simmons]

It certainly wasn't.

[Ryan Rosillo]

There was a big piece on the athletic that spoke directly to that. And I know that it's two guys that have caught the brunt of shit from Atlanta. I wouldn't even just say it's fans, it's media members. It was like Trey was their guy. And then you're like, okay, did you see this piece where they basically said, we need to be completely different with you?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. That's your banner.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Right. And so you've seen it. You've seen it this year. You know, whether it's DeAndre being better in his role and Jalen taking on such a huge part of the offense. Like, I think it was a little alarming that it took this many years for them to say, hey, Trey, you know what'd be really cool is when you have the ball, throw it up ahead to see if there's an opportunity to attack. Like, kind of like you got four of them.

[Bill Simmons]

You can use them at any time.

[Ryan Rosillo]

It's that half court, that line. You can give him the ball before you cross that line. Like, no shit. And so look, all that stuff was in there and they were like, they need to reevaluate what this is. I mean, it's not like he's taken 12 shots a game as opposed to 20. He's only down like a couple shots there. The assist numbers are huge. There's also another piece like, I'm sorry that I'm just reading it and I was sort of just laughing as I read all these quotes. Like, you know, I don't need to just hang on to the basketball and wait for the assist play. I can pass it to someone else who then can move the ball around a little bit. Oh, like that was the.

[Bill Simmons]

You think so Dr. Boogie Nights quote.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Right. So I, you know, we both sneaky, liked this roster for a while, and I like it even more. I guess I'll never understand the Okongu thing of, like, what? Every time I would watch, you'd be like, so Clint's still the better option there. And then they made that change.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Every three weeks at Conqua looks like Bill Russell in, like 1963. It's gotta mean something.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah. And I guess I wanted to put.

[Bill Simmons]

Him in this list and I didn't. Couldn't find a spot for him, but he was top 85. Hey, next group. Okay, this is a one person group. It's Called. Sorry I can't answer your call. I'm taking a long, sad walk. Please leave message after the beep. And that is number 54, Joel Embiid. I have no idea what Joel Embiid's trade bet. You could tell me that Philly has to attach picks to trade him. You could tell me people would offer picks for him. I have no idea. I, I. You could tell me anything. I would believe it. And you don't know either.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I don't, but I, I wasn't mad about it. I didn't go, this is outrageous.

[Bill Simmons]

He doesn't play. I remember.

[Ryan Rosillo]

No, and I remember, like, last year when it was. I think it was. We already talked about it when we did the Denver show and I mentioned the Zach Lowe part of it. I wasn't being critical of Zach, but it was just this accepted thing. Because of who? Him? Beat it, Ben. He'd won the mvp, that. It was like he was in the top five. And I don't think you just automatically lose your spot when you're not healthy and maybe even if you miss a year. But with him, I don't know. I don't know what you do with him. I'd love to know what the contract negotiation was like, why they were in such a hurry to extend him. And it certainly took him, what, 12 seconds to go done.

[Bill Simmons]

12. I think it was four.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I would if I want to sell.

[Bill Simmons]

Can I docusign that right now? Can you just send that to me right now? I got a docusign. I have it open.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Don't send a docusign. I'll drive to you.

[Bill Simmons]

I'll bring my own Sharpie.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I, I don't know what his value is, man. I just don't know that I'd want to be in business because why is it supposed to get better? And for all the shit that he's taken right now from missing games and the Denver history he's brought back up, I'd ask the people that are mad at him for not, did you watch when he was playing? And, like, you can come at me with the box score and all that stuff. The guy doesn't move.

[Bill Simmons]

Just go watch. Go watch the Golden State game. If, if you're wondering.

[Ryan Rosillo]

And he got his numbers. He got his numbers. So you'll say, oh, no. What are you guys talking about now?

[Bill Simmons]

Watch the Golden State game. Just watch defense.

[Ryan Rosillo]

So if he's going to move that badly. My point is, I don't even blame him for not playing. Like, he, he was clearly marginalized when he was out there, and now people are mad that he's not playing anymore. And I kind of look at that stretch of going, well, if that's how bad it was going to look, then he actually needs to. As frustrating as it for everybody, he needs to be missing games to not look like that anymore, because that's not going to work either.

[Bill Simmons]

It was handled horrendously by the team. It was handled horrendously by Embiid. And it's gotten worse the whole season. And I know, I know a bunch of Sixer fans, all of them are in that zone of just like, why aren't you just telling us what's going on? Why the secrecy? Why are you hiding things? Why is this so murky at all times? It's, you know, it just sucks the life out of. They may not know the franchise, the fans, but then say, you don't know. Because they tried to say in the beginning of the season, they tried to make it seem like, oh, he's doing some knee management stuff and he clearly is not going to be able to play three games in a row. And if he does, you know, the other thing when he plays well and they're like strategically picking these games where it's like, hey, Charlotte, tonight, wanna play? Yeah, Charlotte. Great. All right, let me. Let me give that a whirl. But I don't think. Does anybody think he's gonna be able to play four straight playoff rounds?

[Ryan Rosillo]

I don't know why anybody.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you think he played three? Do you think he played two? What's gonna be better about this two months from now?

[Ryan Rosillo]

I don't even know how you would project to be like, yeah, no, it'll. It'll just be fine. The Olympics thing was clearly a huge priority to him. And I think part of it was, you're not going to win a title, like, you know, win a gold. And, you know, he had some big moments for him, but for somebody who just doesn't ever seem to be right, like, was that. Was that the best use of your time?

[Bill Simmons]

Also, we've been basketball fans for a long time. We've seen some things and the direction this has gone, we just have a mental history of other guys where we've watched this kind of arc or lack of an arc, and it's like C. Webb. No, once the micro fracture surgery goes through, it'll be fine. He should be, you know, the only one I can remember where the guy was gone and it seemed bleak, and then he came back and was really good, was Amar E. Stoudemire. Especially in the 2010 season. And that first stretch with the Knicks in 2011 where it seemed like he had hit that point where you just could never rely on him again. And then he did rally back and Bead's carrying, I don't know, 50, 60, 70 extra pounds and more inches and everything. And I just think Yao Ming was another one. Yeah, his feet aren't good. And then all of a sudden he was just out of basketball. I think with these tall guys. When it goes in this direction, the history of the league says it keeps going that direction. Sampson was another one. The late 80s. Got traded to Golden State. Oh, this will go great. Oh, new team. New. And his knees are better. And he was out of the league in three years. So the fact that he's just not playing basketball that much is historically a horrible sign. Next.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Do you think there's a trade? Real quick though, did you think of any trade that you would go. This could actually be some. Because I don't even know how you would start the conversation.

[Bill Simmons]

No, the. I think I mentioned this on a pot a couple weeks ago. It's an all time bullet dodge by the Knicks. Cause I do think they would have gone all in for him last summer. And instead they went down this bridges towns path instead. Which turned out to be way better thing. But I think they would have. I think they would have given up the goods for him. I don't know if there's another team though. I don't think there's a. You'd have to have a huge salary that goes the other way. It would have to be a pretty desperate team. And it would honestly be irresponsible to trade for him with the contract he has when you don't know if he can play or not. I wouldn't do that if I was an owner.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Would you trade Beal for them?

[Bill Simmons]

So Beal. Three years left this year in the next two. But I get out of the embiid business. I mean would Ishbia do that? Of course. But that doesn't solve my Philly problem because I'm taking on another bad contract. I'd rather just keep my fingers crossed with them. Be next group. Very valuable assets on very good contracts. Number 53, Nas Reed, who's like making 12 million a year. I don't like. He's one of the best contracts of the league. Lou Dort, another one who makes nothing. Norm Powell, Austin Reeves, who really should have listened to us when we were telling him to sign with the Spurs. Derek White, Jared Allen.

[Ryan Rosillo]

That Spurs did 48.

[Bill Simmons]

Spurs didn't listen. Next group is valuable assets on not as good contracts. Move Scotty Barnes here to 47 thanks to his agent Ryan Rosillo Shengoon at 46, market at 45, OG Anobi at 44. I just don't love the contracts but love the player. Marketing is the one that I think has been the weirdest one this season because he's just his stats aren't the same. You're paying him as a franchise guy who can, you know, last year he was winning games and beating teams. Having best player in the floor games hasn't really been the same this year. But I also wonder if he's just on cruise control because they're tanking. Any thoughts or.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, I'm a little worried because it kind of gets back to that thing of like oh, if you've shown us some really high level stuff stuff then I expect that you're going to get back to it a little bit.

[Bill Simmons]

And he's 28.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I would say there's some Keante George possessions where everybody else is watching that I don't love. And then Sexton is talented enough to get his. So now do they have like all these other dudes in hell when they bring in Sensiba and they bring like there's just a lot of guys like it's go time and is Lowry collateral because it feels like there's less opportunities for him to initiate or is that something that people have figured out with him?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, who's the point? Who's his buddy? Who's the point guard on this team, who's looking out for him and getting him good shots? I'm gonna say nobody.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I don't like. I still think that there is value for him and but I think it's a fair point in that last year it didn't matter what whatever is con whatever to the last dollar we can pay this guy is what he deserves and what he would get paid and everybody else would be happy to give him that in a free agent world and this season maybe makes you think of him as more expensive.

[Bill Simmons]

Well and also it's two guys Golden State went after last year and didn't get him and Paul George and for what they would have had to give up for marketing. Maybe maybe you're relieved a little bit if you're Golden State would've been a ton of draft picks. You're giving up Wiggins, you're putting Kaminga in there and for what you've seen from Markkanen this year, not that he's not a good player. But I just don't know what's your destiny. If you're Golden State, if you're built around Curry and Markkanen, I don't know where that takes you. You're not in any different of a spot than like Phoenix is. Group H. Always the toughest guy to figure out. This group's called. You realize he has a no trade clause and he's 40, right? It's LeBron James. I don't. They're not trading him. I don't think anyone's trading for him. And it's a useless exercise to talk about him. All right, next group. Let me save you some time. Fuck, no really fun group here. Number 42, Castle 41. Trey Murphy. 40. Josh Hart. 39. Dyson Daniels. 38. Desmond Bain. 37, Darius Garland. 36, Jalen Suggs. We're getting into some real trade assets now. I. I'm fine to admit that I'm overrating Castle if you think I am. I just really like them. I'm all in. I have. I have a house on Castle island already. I'm in. I'm completely in on that guy. And the question would be, should he be that much higher than the other guys in the draft? In my opinion, yes. I think he's going to be a guy who could be a top three guy on a title team. And I think he's a really nice person for the Wemby experience as we travel through it for the next seven, eight years. That's a guy who can win titles with them. So I might over.

[Ryan Rosillo]

No, you know, I don't. I don't think it's. Because here's. Here's an example that I would use. Like when we went back and looked at like, Kaminga, right, you had Kaminga 83 and you had toughest omission. Tar Eason, I would look at like, okay, I've seen the ups and downs of the Kaminga thing for multiple seasons. So the idea that it's just going to turn this corner into something like really steady and that he could be a number two scoring option on an okay team for 30 million a year. Yeah, that's now starting to feel like a bit of a reach with Kamingo, where with Tar Eason, even though it's raw or whatever, like he's out there just wreaking havoc on basketball games and because I haven't really gotten to see the full form version of Tar Eason, like, he would still be more valuable to me just based on the unknown. And then we know this game enough that like the unknown always trumps the known. And that's why Castle is a hang up. Even if it's not like the best ver, you know, because whenever we see somebody young that's this good, like, what if he can do this? What if he can do this? I don't know if he's ever going to be able to shoot it consistently. But I do know this. The guy's what, two years removed from high school and he goes at like 30 year old dudes like they stole from him. He looks to fucking kill guys. So that mentality and all of that, like having a dude out there that is completely unafraid this early, like, there's plenty of young guys who are like, okay, he's just uncomfortable and he needs to kind of get through this. There's none of that with him. So even if the full arsenal of like, all the offensive polish of even a guy like Vassell, I have no problem with him being this high because teams don't trade guys like that.

[Bill Simmons]

I agree. I'm really interested to see what happens within next two months and with San Antonio in general, because I actually think their record's lower than maybe it should be. We all went under on them or I went under on them. Maybe you went over on them before the season.

[Ryan Rosillo]

No, I'm pretty sure I went over because it was a jump, I think. Did you go over?

[Bill Simmons]

No, I went under just because I thought the west was too good and I didn't see the path for them to be in the high 30s. But they're in a lot of these games and Wemby's terrifying. And if Castle gets better down the stretch, who knows? Trey Murphy, I'm putting at 41 because I liked last year for him. I think they fucked him this year with the contract extension. Couldn't. Couldn't really work out all summer. Didn't know if he was getting it. Then he gets it got hurt. But if you've watched him the last couple weeks, that's just the kind of guy you want on your team. You know, he's.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I think we would have seen this earlier from him too. One with health and just more opportunity. Yeah, it's starting to feel undeniable with him.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

And now I. I kind of just don't want some of these guys to get in his way because I think there's an awesome version of him that's just waiting to happen here. And I. I love him.

[Bill Simmons]

So if we ran a team, we'd be calling Griffin every 48 hours. Be like, ah, I don't know, maybe too many guys. What about Murphy? Josh Hart, I was shocked that I had him this side, but the guy plays 42 minutes a game, has crazy stats, and he's indispensable on a top five team. And he's on a good contract, so I had to put him there. Daniels, we both love Bane, Garland, Suggs. No arguments on any of those. This next group, it's three people. It's called if you tell Shams, I'll deny it to the death, but I AM Absolutely, unequivocally, 100% listening. Number 35, Zion Williamson. Number 34, Lamella Ball. And number 33, Bam Adebayo. I think Bam would be the surprise in that one, but I'm just prepared for anything with Miami. I don't know what they do, whether they blow it up, who knows? Like, is Miami hanging up if you're like, we're here to talk about Bam? I just don't think they are. I think everyone on their team's a very available.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I might hang up on you and end the pod right now for having Bam in a group with Zion and Lamelo.

[Bill Simmons]

I. Listen, I. I'm sorry. I could also put him in the next group.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Just put him in another group. He shouldn't be in that group with those two guys.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, I'm gonna move him down just. Just to keep you happy, so.

[Ryan Rosillo]

It's so disappointing.

[Bill Simmons]

The same ranking? Same ranking. Number 33.

[Ryan Rosillo]

That's fine.

[Bill Simmons]

But he's in the next group, which is called. Sorry, we're pot committed here. Okay? Zion and Lamelo. I would trade for Zion. I would totally talk myself into. He's in the worst possible franchise with the worst trainers and a weird fan base and a bad city for him. If we just bring him here.

[Ryan Rosillo]

It was. It was the weird fan base.

[Bill Simmons]

That's what I'm just. I'm saying if you're talking yourself into, oh, if we could just get him, we can molt him. He's the kind of guy that gets GMs fired where you're like, no, no, we gotta do this. Because once we get him and then three months later, he pulls a hamstring and he puts on £20 and you're like, oh, my God, I'm gonna lose my job. Why did I do this? That's him.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I agree that I think there's a second team market for him just based on history. This is like Darko and Orlando giving up a lottery pick for Him. It's like, well, this guy went really hardcore. Do you remember this?

[Bill Simmons]

I do, but, wow. I didn't know it was that bad.

[Ryan Rosillo]

No, it isn't, because Zion's done more than Darko ever did.

[Bill Simmons]

I was thinking it was more like the Chris Weber, Mitch Richmond type of trade, where you're like, ah, you're giving us Mitch Richmond, even though he's 33. Fine.

[Ryan Rosillo]

That's a better one based on production because, like, the Zion thing was. Was really good last year. And it's kind of like a little bit like the Embiid thing in that you go, well, if the market is this bad for this guy that I know I probably should be in business with, I'm still not going to trade him now. And then I think on the other side of it, not that this lasted very long, but the idea that because of the contract, like, would they waive him? You go, no, no, no, Wait a minute, wait a minute. There's a market. There's still a market based on, like the second team going. Like, if it were Pierce and Antoine Walker, you would be calling into EI being like, we should. We should get Zion. Like, that's the kind of structure of a team where you go, they don't really have that much hope. And, like, I'm going to be excited and it's going to be cool to have Zion in my uniform, but that.

[Bill Simmons]

Could be Golden State right now. When we're talking about, like, Hail Mary, we have to do something. Crazy moves saying fuck it and going after Zion, that qualifies because if you strike oil with it, it's an amazing trade. If all the good things from the trade happen, it's the best trade anyone could make this decade. And yet it's probably way more likely all the other stuff would happen. It's one of the toughest trade assets in a long time.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Okay. But in a vacuum, like, if you were running a team and let's.

[Bill Simmons]

I wouldn't trade for him.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Okay. But if somebody said, you have to have one, like, your owner calls, hey, I just bought the team. It's. It's Bezos. Bezos is like, we need to make a statement here early. Bill finally going to give you GM job. And we're also going to have, like, behind the scenes. You think. You think Hard Knocks was all access?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

We're going to be. We're going to be waking up with you. Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Ryan Rosillo]

24 hours running the team.

[Bill Simmons]

24 hour VR.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Right. So you need to trade for one of the two LaMelo or Zion I trade for Lamelo.

[Bill Simmons]

Lamelo I. That's another one where you can. He's a get coaches and GM's fired guy. His destiny. I made this joke many times, but his destiny might end up being an awesome basketball reference page. And, you know, Twitter, TikTok, Snapchat, one minute clips of this guy was a problem, and that might be it, but you watch him on certain nights, and he just seems completely unstoppable and, like, he can make any shot and you could get seduced by it. If it was him versus Zion, at least I know he's probably a better bet to play.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah. Which isn't even a great bet. I thought the All Star voting thing was really interesting. And then when I went to look at how it was happening when you sorted his position for available people to vote on, he's the first option because he was leading everybody in scoring. So I was like, I wonder if that would happen. I got to give Tim McMahon credit on this one because he was on with Wind Horse and Bontemps, and he was like, well, his style of play has been in preparation of the All Star Game, so he's a perfect fit if he's named a starter. He ended up not being a starter. He shouldn't have been a starter based on what Mitchell, Garland, Brunson, and all these guys have done. I think between the two, here's the issue. Wasn't just the BAM issue. I think that Zion and Lamelo should be behind Group G. I think they should just be behind it. Because if somebody offsets.

[Bill Simmons]

Right between LeBron and those other guys.

[Ryan Rosillo]

All right, Right. Because, I mean, even though you can't trade Trey Murphy for Zion, if Trey Murphy were offered for Zion, the team says, yeah, we'll turn the page on this.

[Bill Simmons]

So the Pelicans call the spurs and they say, we'll give you Zion for Castle. And the spurs say, no way.

[Ryan Rosillo]

The smart answer is no way.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. I think you're right. That's a good. See, this is why you're a great trade value. Conciliary. That's a good note. I'm like, mad Dog. That's a good job by you, Ryan. That's just a great job right there.

[Ryan Rosillo]

SCP Rossella put me to sleep. It was such a sad day in my career. I was in the car driving home, listening to Mad Dog. Yeah, he said it on the air. Mad Dog on Van Pelt. And I. And I was like, I would leave ESPN, right, at 4. I'd be driving to the gym. I would listen to a little God leap. I check out what the dog was doing and dog was like ask me. Put me to sleep. Huh? There's no energy on that show. And I was just like, fuck. I was going to do another Eagles rejoin from Scottsdale. I was pissed.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, the good thing is, the good thing is you let slights like that, you just forget about them overnight. Don't think about them again.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah. Like it never happened.

[Bill Simmons]

We're going to take one more break and do the top 33. This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. If you want to take control of your finances, Apple Card is where it starts. A credit card that can give you up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase. I have one. I can tell you this is true. I know and love Apple Card. So many places I can use it, especially during a busy time here with football, basketball, the holidays, all at once. I can use my Apple Card on tickets to a game, a gift from my dad, or even tickets as a gift for my dad. Plus, anytime there's a new Apple product, it's a lot easier. Apply for an Apple Card today. It's easy. Just go to the wallet app on your iPhone again. That easy? Subject to credit approval Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch terms and [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by Peloton. Life's always changing. One season you're trying to break personal records and the next you're just looking for a solid routine. Peloton is here for all of it, with workouts that flex to fit your schedule. Whatever it looks like, you've got options from four week strength programs to running, cycling and everything in between. Peloton's got the tools to adapt to whatever goal you're chasing in this season of your life. And here's the real kicker. With Peloton's All Access membership, you can work out wherever you need to at home, on the bike, tread or row or even on the go with the app. Take your favorite classes with you to the gym, on the road, wherever. So whatever you're aiming for, that 5am club or squeezing in a late night session, Peloton is ready whenever you are. Find your push. Find your power with [e-mail]. All right, 33 guys left. This is group E. Sorry we're PAC committed it here. Rossella demanded Bam be put in this group and get away from Zayed and Lamello. So Bam thanks you. He's 33. Mikhail Bridges, Kyrie Irving, Jalen Brown who was in the teens, I think, three months ago, and I think has dropped. And we could talk about that in a second. Franz Wagner, Kevin Durant, and then Sabonis. And there's a couple of the contracts here. Jaylen Brown, four years left, 236. Kevin Durant, two years, 106. That's this year. Next year, Sabonis, four for 186. A little pricey, but. But that. What do you think of that order? Adebayo Bridges, Irving Brown, Wagner, Durant, and then number 27, Sabonis. Is that the right group for Durant?

[Ryan Rosillo]

It is.

[Bill Simmons]

Nudge them up. I think it is the age and, and team performance.

[Ryan Rosillo]

But, you know, if. If Durant were offered to the Pacers or Halliburton, would they just go, yep, no problem, and we'll just have Nemhart initiate everything?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think the Pacers do it. It's too hard to find a guy who's like, I love being Indiana's signature guy. I think it would take a lot for them to trade him.

[Ryan Rosillo]

You see, Durant may just not be into it later on. All right, that's fine. I love this group because I think this is where it really starts getting hard. This is where all the years, all the tape for you, Bill, is showing up because Kyrie, this is maybe the highest he's been in a long time.

[Bill Simmons]

Listen, I'm a Kyrie, I'm a second chance guy, I'm a third chance guy, and I'm even a fourth chance guy. Kyrie, not one of my. Not one of my favorites for a long time. And he really won me over the last couple of years. Fine. He's a late bloomer. But I don't know. I think this is the right area for him because if he's your second best player, you can make the NBA Finals. We saw that in June.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, Mic'd up. Just leadership pouring into your ears.

[Bill Simmons]

Coherent press conferences hasn't done really anything goofy in about a year and a half. Two years, right?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Well, yeah, I think we're coming up on what, two years of him being.

[Bill Simmons]

Two year anniversary that should have been. That would have been a good anniversary for you as pen to celebrate.

[Ryan Rosillo]

It'd be good 30 for 30. You know, the Jalen thing for Durant. You think Boston says no? I think they.

[Bill Simmons]

I think they'd have to. Well, that's why I had Durant 28 and Brown 30. Because I think if you're Boston and you have the chance to get out of the last two years, of Jalen's contract and replace him with somebody that would keep you as competitive as you are right now. You. You'd at least have to have meetings about if you're Phoenix. Why am I doing that? Like, I'm already like all the way in with this KD Booker thing. I, like, I can't really deviate from that at this point.

[Ryan Rosillo]

It just feels low for Jalen and I think because of this year, he's getting dinged too much. Although.

[Bill Simmons]

So you put him in the 20s.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, but see, but I like the group that he's in because Sabonis is incredibly like the stats with him every single time. I don't even know that I blame the guy from Turkey for voting him for mvp. Um, I know he was. Was he from Greece or something like that? Like, he might have just pulled up and gone, like, look at this plus minus shit. Like, are you kidding? Like, that has to be the MVP.

[Bill Simmons]

15 rebounds a game.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

The J1 thing. Four. Four years for 236 in the last two years. In the 60s when we're in a second apron league now, it's just, it's. It's really hard to pay your second best player that contract. I think that's why he has to be dinked. Not totally his fault.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Okay. But like we were doing it before and. So what was the Jaylen deal? Five years. What?

[Bill Simmons]

Five years almost. I mean, it was like 280, 285, something like that. Now we're four years left at 236. So it's just a crazy number because we were talking.

[Ryan Rosillo]

We were talking OG and anobi. We didn't really get into it. Like, there's part of me that will always think, like, you had to pay OG and an OBI five years, 212 fully guaranteed, and give him a player option on the last year. And you know, statistically there's some stuff with him, you're like, how does. But when you watch him, you appreciate him a little bit more. Certainly when he's been more available, which I think has been a fair knock on him in the past there. But you're right, like, it's still 75 million light of what you're paying Jalen.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he's 49.2 this year. 53, 57, 61, 64 in the 2829 season. That's alarming for anybody.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Right? But the cap's going to go up and at 65 million, as crazy as that number is, it's 65 million for him. At 32, he's going to age well. And at that point, it's only. It's under 32% of the actual cap hit.

[Bill Simmons]

So I hope he ages well. I don't like the fact that he's fucking jacked. I think he needs to unjack. I think he needs to unjack by about seven pounds of muscle. After seeing him in person for two days, I was alarmed by how jacked he was. He looked like he should be with Jesse Ventura and Schwarzenegger and Carl Weathers in the Predator movie. That's like how jacked he was. And I just don't like.

[Ryan Rosillo]

That's didn't hurt.

[Bill Simmons]

Kevin Willis fall forward.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Is Kevin Willis first team all time? Looks like he looks like he could play right now. Like, I love. That's always the Fred Lynn thing when he stops by Nessen once. Just. It's mandatory. Mandatory that anybody that ages well, he can be 104. You'd be like, that guy probably gets you six innings right now.

[Bill Simmons]

Right? You just have to be skinny. It's just if you're skinny, they. They say it.

[Ryan Rosillo]

And a tan.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, you're. You don't have a pot belly. You're tan. You can play right now. Group D7 guys, budding franchise guys. Tyrese Maxey, 26 Halliburton. Gulp. Carl Anthony Towns, number 24, John Morant. Brandon Miller. Brandon Miller, Jalen Johnson and Chet Holmgren. Who would have been higher, but he's had two major injuries already and he's like 22. And I had to ding him a. If you healthy, Chad, Homegrown, I think would be higher. Anyone on that list jump out to you in the wrong way or the right way?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Towns has been great for them. Completely won the trade. Still going to be a little bit worried about what the defensive alignment stuff might be, but when they're rolling offensively, it's. I mean, it's just an awesome one through five.

[Bill Simmons]

The contract for towns, 49.2, 53.15761. I mean, he looks good, but he's been awesome. And there's no way he's not a top 30 trade asset. Where he is exactly, I don't know.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Nope. I don't think when, you know, as we get to the rest of the list that I've seen here. So there was nothing. I mean, I always could pick at anything. I guess I'm just kind of wondering, like, what is JA right now?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, that was the one. Is JA too high on this list and should he be backwards? Just because Ja doesn't play a lot. And it's like these one off, then he plays two, then he's off one, then he's off three, then he's. Then he's playing three more. It just seems like he's not available a lot and it makes me nervous. If that's my franchise guy. He's like, because it's true when Tatum doesn't play, I'm like, what happened to Tatum? He's not playing. I just assume he's going to play every game with Ja. It's like, whoa, Ja played a month in a row, really?

[Ryan Rosillo]

He's missed 19 games this year. He played nine games last year. And we know last year was a mess for.

[Bill Simmons]

But they've been 19 games that he missed that have been spread out. They're sprinkled out like 2, 3, 1.

[Ryan Rosillo]

He's definitely a. Because Memphis is on whatever priority. Like, it's easily a top 10 team for me now because I just am like falling in love with Jaren Jackson in a new way. Like, I always appreciated him, but now like this year I get like excited to kind of see, like, I wonder how they're going to use him. Um, I love Jaren Jackson. So there you go. And you're right. Like, there's nights where I go, oh, like, shit, Jaws and playing again tonight. And so when you look at his style of play, and I know he's talked about like, I'm just not going to be doing the same type of stuff that he's in the second year of a five year deal for 197.2 million.

[Bill Simmons]

But it, it makes two major incidents. Don't forget to include that part.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, this, this is a lot like some of these other guys that we talk about, whether it's Trey's value to Atlanta, specifically Lamelo's value to Charlotte, New Orleans going, look, if Zion's not worth anything on the trade market, we might as well just ride this out again and see that if he's healthy. Because the best version of him, like, we can be a team that, you know, I don't know if dangerous is the wrong word here, but you understand, like, at least like a, a path of. If we have all of our guys and you know, we can get frustrated, we can get impatient, but so many of these teams just kind of default to patience that Jaws probably a hang up on almost 90%. Like, there's probably a few guys ahead of him that are hang ups. But I also could see people making an argument that at 23, he's too high because of availability.

[Bill Simmons]

If Memphis called Philly and said, we'll trade you John Moran for Tyrese Maxey straight up right now, I don't think Philly does it, which tells me I probably should add job behind Tyrese Maxey. Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

And Maxi, you know, has missed a little time this year, but that was the. Those are the two that I put next to each other. The contract's the same. Maxi's only on the first year, but it's five years 204, like I said, versus five years 197. Maxi played 60 games last year, 70 games a year before that. He's played 37 to 44 this year. His shooting numbers are down. But really that to me is a product of him going, okay, Embiid's out and I'm just gonna force the issue. And he's taking a million shots. He's taking more bad shots than they normally would. So I don't look at his declining shooting this year as this alarming thing. I think it was just he's been good shot difficulty. Yeah, so.

[Bill Simmons]

So maybe it's Halliburton, 26, jaw 25, maxi 24, towns 23. I think. I think that's the order because I think Max, I think Maxi is a little more of a hang up than Jaws from Memphis just because of the lack of availability and some of the stuff that's happened. Are you okay with Brandon Miller at 22?

[Ryan Rosillo]

I mean, I could ding you because of the hand surgery, but based on everything you've read about it is that it's pretty straightforward.

[Bill Simmons]

And Jalen Johnson, 21, you're good with?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, I love Jalen Johnson.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, me too. Okay, next group. Three guys. Group C, only if they made us do it. Number 19, De'Aaron Fox. Number 18, Steph Curry. Number 17, Devin Booker. You heard me correctly. Steph Curry, number eight is 18. Here's the case. I think you and I are probably among the two biggest Steph Curry fans in the media.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Seth is probably third.

[Bill Simmons]

Three years, 178 million is the number. He's 36. And if he's the best player in a pretty average team, in the old days, that meant the team would have been good to maybe really good. Now it means pretty average. That's what we've seen. I just think he's. I don't think he's at a completely different point in his career, but he's at a slightly different point in his career. This. This version of Steph Curry right now would not have won the 2022 finals. I think there's been a slight, slight, slight aging with him, but I also don't think they would ever trade him unless he went into the office and said, you guys have to trade me. It's time. So it's a tough one.

[Ryan Rosillo]

No. When he had the opportunity to talk about the trade market, he did the exact opposite. Did the exact opposite. Bobby Marks brought it up when we had him on not that long ago, and it's like, this is what you want. This is what you want in the face of your franchise. This is the person that looks at kind of this lifetime professional relationship of like, hey, what's the best way for me to handle this versus the worst way? And the worst way would be like, Anthony Davis clearly did it because he learned it from watching LeBron.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, the passive aggressive trade request. Our roster's not good enough. Yeah, we need a big man. You have, like, five big men on your roster.

[Ryan Rosillo]

And I just don't think. I just think it's a ridiculous way to, like, operate as if the front office is sitting around, be like, hey, do you guys want to be worse? Are better? Like, I don't know. What about you? Like, what do you want to do today? Ah, I don't know. Let's get lunch and then we'll think about it. And then it's like, oh, no, the player said he wants us to get better. All right, well, that. That does it. Yeah, let's get.

[Bill Simmons]

Fine then.

[Ryan Rosillo]

We weren't. We weren't going to do it. We actually wanted to be average, but now. And usually that means you're forcing the front office. If you have leverage, if you have an upcoming contract, you have all these different things. You're probably forcing the front office in ownership into doing something they don't think is the best thing to do long term. And, you know, LeBron's never cared about any of the draft picks anyway, so I think Davis is just basically saying the same stuff as him. So. Steph.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, they're no line thing.

[Ryan Rosillo]

There's. There's no. I don't know. You know, nothing's impossible, but I don't know if that day is ever going to come.

[Bill Simmons]

I only think the only thing that would make sense to me would be Charlotte if he wanted to, like, finish his career there. But that's just. You're punting on everything. And I. I do think some people feel like relationships are really important and that they would rather spend the rest of their career, like, understanding the impact of, like, I was on the same team that Drafted me. We won titles together. I ended up retiring with some of the people I played with. I think he cares about that, so it's stupid to even have him on a list like this. Booker was an interesting one because I have him 17th. I don't have him in either of the top two groups. You could make a case that he should be, but I just haven't liked that. That team seems super disjointed and unhappy for three straight years. And he's the best guy on it. And at some point it, you know, he's 28. I just couldn't get there. But I'm also willing to be talked into nudging him up if you think we should.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I just think he should be up, man. I'm a huge Booker fan and I think it's been a bit like some of the steps stuff that we've seen. I think there's certain guys from an efficient standpoint. We just talked about it with Maxi where I can handle the efficiency, being dinged a little when I feel like you are tasked with having to get your team out of so many bad possessions. And when I watch them, I think he's still. He's still the guy I trust the most on that team. So if that. All right, so let's run through it like you think. You think of Jalen Williams. Well, the Jalen Williams contract thing with okc, I'm going to lose because of the flexibility.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, let's go through it. Group B. We can go through each guy and you tell me if any of them would trade this guy for Devin Booker. So I'll move Booker up to group b. So he's 17. Number 16, Jalen Williams. I don't think they. I think they would rather have Williams on the contract. He's on younger. His age is time to SGA and Chet and some of the draft picks they have. I just think they would rather have Jalen Williams and Booker. As weird as that sounds from a basketball stand standpoint, it's also a team that doesn't really make trades ever. So you good with that? Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

The contract, I can't win it. I'd rather have Booker just for the basketball player. I'd rather have Booker playing next to SGA right now than Jalen Williams. I don't even know how anybody would debate that.

[Bill Simmons]

Hurts me on defense a little bit. Right. Jalen Williams doing, you know, between him and Dort. That's part. I think what makes their defense so special is their. Everybody on that team can switch in all these Good ways. And there's high end defender. Like SJ is probably the worst defender out of their crunch time guys. Yeah. I mean, when you look at who.

[Ryan Rosillo]

They'Ll either attack the other team will attack Wallace if it's a size thing, or they'll go at SGA because it's like the best of the options, you know, so you can avoid Dort or Caruso or even Wiggins, who I think is one of my favorite, like underrated players in the entire league. Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

That's why it's so unfun to talk about OKC trades, because it was like, I like all these guys that wouldn't trade, like, oh, we got to improve the Wiggins spot. Do you? I'd rather like see what I have with Wiggins and all these guys like playing with each other, which you gotta value. Like, it's really hard to make a trade if you have chemistry like they have. I wouldn't touch it. You know, Thompson at 15. It's a really fun basketball trade Thompson for Booker. I just, I'd be terrified of Trey Thompson at this point. I just couldn't do it. Just from what we've seen the last five weeks, to me, it's an automatic hangup. I just can't do it. I don't know what's there. Like, there's like the ceiling is opening up and there's like real Kawhi potential now. There's Pippin potential now there's potential for all time guys. When you watch him, this is, this is beyond just, oh, man, that guy's really good. Like there's. We're at another level of it now and everyone can see it. You could see it last night with the Celtics game. He was the best guy in the game. He's in a game with Brooks. It's 10 threes, Tatum's in the game, Jalen Brown's in the game. And Thompson was the most impactful guy in the game. So I wouldn't. I would not trade him.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I would trade him for Booker.

[Bill Simmons]

You would?

[Ryan Rosillo]

I would. I think. I think this is where I wouldn't do it. I mean, we, we raved about him at the beginning, so I don't think anybody's gonna. But he's. He's 19% from three. First career Kawhi was 38% his rookie year. I think he was 38% his second year too.

[Bill Simmons]

But how many years was Kawhi in college? At least three, right?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. So Thompson's. Thompson's at the stage right now where basically Kawhi was a rookie in the Spurs.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I look at Booker as a top 10 bucket getter and we've seen it in the playoffs, we've seen it deeper in the playoffs. He's 28 years old and he's a motherfucker in the best possible way and not in a way that like, distracts him from the task at hand at the game. But I don't think he's afraid of anybody. I think when his level of like, shot creation and scoring in huge moments is. There's not 10 players in the league that are better than him at that.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, I'm gonna. I'll move him to 16, I'll move Thompson to 17, and I'll move Jayden Williams to 15. My only fear with Thompson is this was. It's like, remember that five weeks when I'm. When Thompson was like, looked like the greatest prospect of any swing man in 10 years and then. And then he shot 9% from three in March. So I'm not, I'm.

[Ryan Rosillo]

He might be.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't want to put too much pressure on him. Right.

[Ryan Rosillo]

But it's kind of the weight of like, how often would we have ever said no to Booker for Amend Thompson? And it's like every day except for the last 12.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's fair. 14. Kate Cunningham. Congrats, by the way. I know, I know you've accept. Been accepting kudos and plaudits for the last couple months. You never gave up. You were, I think, driving the Cade bandwagon. It's been really special this year and his team's not good. You know, they have some fun role players, they have some fun veterans, but the amount of responsibility he has game to game. This is the argument with Lamello ball. The Lamel ball defenders would say, well, his team's not good. Well, Cade's team's not good either. And that team is going toe to toe night after night and has a chance to be a pretty fun playing team. I like watching him and he's been really special. So he's number 14.

[Ryan Rosillo]

For me to carry this offense back to the first part of this, to be able to do this, I still would like to know over, under, if I said it at five and a half, number of games Monty Williams has watched with the Pistons taking the over, the under.

[Bill Simmons]

Way under. I think he's on an island somewhere.

[Ryan Rosillo]

You don't think he's watched six Pistons games? You just out of curiosity, you don't think he's checked in twice a month?

[Bill Simmons]

They should be an ABC sitcom where he has to live with Killian Hayes. It's just the two of them in some beach house in Aruba just ordering the staff around. It's like below deck to 20, 23 pistons. Monty Williams and Killian Hayes. Evan Mobley, number 13, big win for me. You had your victory lap with Kate Cunningham. Huge victory lap for me with Evan Mobley. I never gave up. I kind of gave up a little bit. And then Jaren Jackson, number 12.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Would you, you would say no? Let's see, this becomes a I can't trade Evan Cavs thing.

[Bill Simmons]

You can trade. I'd rather have the size than the guard. If I have somebody who can anchor a championship defense, I'm just picking that if, if all things are equal. All right, like, we've seen, there's games when Mobley hasn't played where the Cavs look just completely different, you know? And I don't know, I, I, I'm really impressed. But Jackson, who you mentioned earlier, that's been the stunner for me, you know? And this is a big win for Chris Vernon, who was always like, you guys are always, you know, shooting your wad about Mobley. What about Jaren Jackson, who has better numbers every year and has been in more playoff games? Jared Jackson's been awesome. And there's a, there's a fuck you to him this year that I really like. Like, I, that he had that Wemby game this year where he's like, fuck this guy. I don't like this guy. I'm gonna go at him. He's had a few of those this year.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I know the shooting number wasn't great. It's the only dude that I've seen be like, to your point, fuck him.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's like, fuck him.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I mean, I, I haven't seen that since Scoot in that international game.

[Bill Simmons]

Our guy, we're not dead for Scoot sense of life.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I don't know. I think they come over to my, they'd come over to my house and be like, is he sleeping?

[Bill Simmons]

Anyway, Moby 13, Jaren Jackson 12. I think that's the right order.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I'm glad, I'm glad. I was afraid. I was afraid you were going to do Jaren Jackson in the 20s because you get in his case of the foul trouble and the rebounding now, he's.

[Bill Simmons]

Had an awesome year.

[Ryan Rosillo]

When, when you think about what he can do offensively and the different ways that you can use him. I've never been as big a fan of him as I am right now. I voted him as an All Star starter and I know that wasn't popular. Did you? No way.

[Bill Simmons]

No. I ended up voting for Durant, but I stared at it. I did Wemby. Jokic.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Jokic, right.

[Bill Simmons]

And I looked at Durant and Jaren Jackson for a half hour and I really wanted to vote for Jaren Jackson. And I just was like, ah, it's the All Star Game. It's kd. You know, he's the vet. And I just. It's not his fault that his team is run in the worst possible way, but I really wanted to do it. I think I actually wish I had done it. I think you made the right call.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Well, very few media members agreed with me, but there was still like, when the votes came out, I was like, am I going to be the only one that did this? And I think there were seven of us.

[Bill Simmons]

I wish you had texted me because you could have talked me into it in like 20 seconds. I was that on the fence.

[Ryan Rosillo]

But, you know, we're all impressionable to a point, too. And it just, I caught more and more of him during this. And then you back up and you look at the numbers and then you think about what he does defensively and all these different things. And I was like, I think it's close enough. And, you know, standings isn't necessarily my tiebreaker, and I think that'll not be a tiebreaker when it comes to the MVP vote if we stay on the same path. And, you know, I think I, I think the Durant, like the default and LeBron and all that kind of stuff, like, hey, it's the All Star Game. It's about the stars and that's who fans want to see. Like, I, I wouldn't get mad about anybody doing that if it's close, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, if it's close.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

The LeBron on off court numbers, when we had to do the vote, it was just that there's no way you could vote for him. He was like a minus, minus eight, something like that.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I think it's. I think it's a little. Well, it's better this morning. It's. Yeah, it's minus 4.6.

[Bill Simmons]

No, it's gotten better because they're playing better. When we, when we had to do the vote, though, it wasn't great. So Jaren Jackson's played 45 of 47 games for the Grizzlies, which is awesome. And he's having his best season all the way. He's 23 and 6. He's easily their most indispensable player and they're really good, so kudos to him. I have Davis 11. You saw the last couple games, like, he really big boyed Boston the game last night, you know, he's. If he's playing the right shitty team, you really do feel like he could be a 40, 20 guy. He's been really good there. A week ago, I was wondering if they should trade him to Golden State. Now Golden State's gone one way and the Lakers feel like they have some momentum. The Finney Smith thing really helped them. Like it. It feels like they finally have enough guys to at least guard perimeter guys decently now and they don't have to play connect as much. So Reaves can be like the one guy you can kind of hunt, but that's it. Vincent's playing better. And then LeBron's had a little more energy on defense, just a little tiny bit. But I'm a little more hopeful for them than I was a week ago. A week ago I was like, this team's done. They have no chance.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Super impressed with them in person. When they house the Celtics, I know people can point to the Celtics. What was it, 5 and 7, but I just hate, like how everybody just throws. Anytime any team loses, you're just like, up, back to back up, you know, look at this stretch. And I understand it, but the Lakers control that game from the jump.

[Bill Simmons]

And it's very bullied him too. It was. They knocked him around.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I thought they were really physical in a way that was. Was like inspiring. Not that I went outside and started, you know, fighting people, but I would have been awesome.

[Bill Simmons]

Was.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Well, I wasn't that upset. I wanted to get home and get something to eat because it was late. But I think D'Angelo Russell just being removed from all of the possibilities and all the possessions and all the stuff that he does that may not show up, like, oh, look at the shooting numbers. Like, oh, look at this. And he has a better net rating than LeBron. All these different things, it's like, yeah, man. But it just. There's just times where, you know, like, what the hell is he doing right now? And so their best spacing closing group was their worst defensive perimeter group. So they were kind of stuck. And I think removing that removes some of the stuff with them being stuck. And I, you know, it's weird with them because I kind of like them. But I also think, like, the standard is that when they're not a true title contender, they get so dismissed and then we're just like, oh, they Stink. It's like they don't. They don't stink. Like, there's seven guys there that I kind of like. But then I have to think about who am I picking them against in the playoffs in the first round, and that becomes more challenging.

[Bill Simmons]

They're at least a bitch in the round one. That's where they've at least taken this season, the Celtic game, whatever. There were real. The Celtics had weird coaching in that game. There was a weird energy. They'd played the OT game the night before. The warriors game was the one that really impressed me because I thought the warriors needed the game. They wanted the game as national tv. I wasn't sold on the Lakers at all, but they did the same thing they did to Boston and the Thursday, it was like, oh, shit, this. This team's big. Davis is really engaged. LeBron seems like he kind of is starting to like the roster a little bit. And I really think Reeves, who killed the Celtics, has turned into a very fun offensive player and that. And Reddick's not afraid to run shit through him and marginalize LeBron for a couple, you know, half a quarter in crunch time. Like, if. If Reeves has the right matchup, they'll go to him. They'll actually use him, which they weren't doing last year.

[Ryan Rosillo]

The other hope is that, you know, LeBron defensively is going to be a different version of himself in the playoffs. Yeah, I mean, it's. It's terrible right now, and it has been. I mean, there's just so many moments you can look at and be like, well, if he has to move, like, it'll be times where he'll. He'll help to where the help doesn't need to be there. But at least it looks like he's defending somebody. And it's like. But now you just. You just messed up the entire rotation of the stuff. And I get it, like, he's 40 years old, and that's why there was that weird stretch, like 10 games in or something, where they were winning games and he was playing out of his mind in his intensity. I was like, what. What is this? Like, are you going to try to keep up this kind of pace? Like, this doesn't make any sense. So that actually is a positive in that I wonder, you know, you gear it up, you have a little bit more of a break during the playoffs. If you can see a more engaged version of him where defensively, he's just trying to survive the season, play as many games as he can, you know, help them be kind of A mid seed team in the West, I still think some of their best offensive possessions is when he's initiating it because it would make sense because he's so smart and he's still so good.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, especially transitions. The other thing, his transition stuff is still great, you know, like his ability to read at half court. Oh, there's only two guys there. I'm just going to go through them and I'm bigger than them and I'm going to get a layup.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Well, in the past you get older though. Think about it though, how much, how much easier it is to move when you know where you're moving, as opposed to having to move in relationship to the other person, moving where you have no idea where they're going. So when, when he knows everything that he's doing, it's still incredibly impressive. And so that window of when he played that hard, even though I was like, man, this, this dude is like, it was a bunch of games in a row. I was like, he's really going for it. I wonder like if that's actually something to look at where we're like, okay, well, at least that had happened at some point this season, even from that time on. Yeah, I guess it's been a little bit better lately. But there was, there was a stretch.

[Bill Simmons]

We'll see. The Lakers have been up and down, but they're in a nice little, nice little spot right now. Davis. So this Untouchables group, Group B, Davis, 11. Jalen Brunson, 10. Donovan Mitchell, 9. And Mitchell's had. I just love the year he's had and they're not playing huge minutes. He's really deferred and just seems like he's been an awesome teammate this year. And I think he's the biggest reason they're winning last group. So this is a big argument coming out of the gate. This last group, completely and utterly untouchable. And I had Paolo number eight. And I struggled with that more than I think any other name in the list whether he should be in this final group or be in the group that we just went through. And I couldn't shake those first couple games before he got hurt this season. How young he is and how I just wouldn't trade him. I just, I just wouldn't be able to do it. Like to me he's a completely, utterly untouchable. But is he too high?

[Ryan Rosillo]

I don't think so.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, good. I'm glad you said that.

[Ryan Rosillo]

One stretch. It's that stretch last year. I think he's another guy that you have to factor in who was available around him. Orlando, statistically so bad offensively. And it also speaks to losing Franz for that long on top of losing Paolo. So I think there's a lot of people that could try to throw. And he's had some dud of games, you know, some of the shooting numbers since he's come back.

[Bill Simmons]

That's. I don't. I wouldn't say he's 100%. I'm going to. I'll worry about that in March.

[Ryan Rosillo]

What I love about him is that I know he can fill it up, but he also wants everybody to be involved. And that's why I loved him at Duke. It's why I've always argued for him, is that, you know, the difference between, like, Jalen Green, can't see the way Paolo sees the game. And that's why I'm a Palo fan.

[Bill Simmons]

Would you have them above or below Anthony Edwards, who I have at number seven?

[Ryan Rosillo]

I'd have him behind him.

[Bill Simmons]

Me, too. Well, Anthony Edwards is our number seven. Taking some shit this year. Little bit of a backlash season. You knew it was coming. Knew the backlash season was happening.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I wish it was going to start. Yeah. But it was going to happen in the Olympics. Like, leading up to it, after his run through the playoffs, he was like, I'm the number one option. It's like. Or. Yeah, or you're going to be watching.

[Bill Simmons]

It's part of the process. How do you handle adversity? How do you handle annoying media questions about adversity? How do you handle tough losses? We're fine. Tatum, number six. Giannis, number five.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Giannis is better. Stop. Sorry. You're going to think that you're going to. You're going to be so happy right now. Giannis is better than Tatum. Tatum is the better value.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. Make the case.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Tatum plays all the time.

[Bill Simmons]

They're about the same age, right?

[Ryan Rosillo]

No, Tatum's.

[Bill Simmons]

What?

[Ryan Rosillo]

He turned 20.

[Bill Simmons]

Tatum's 26. So Giannis is two years older than him?

[Ryan Rosillo]

No, Giannis turned 30 in December. Tatum.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, shit. Giannis is 30?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah. Tatum turns 27 in March. So when you sent that, I was. I was thinking maybe you were doing that on purpose because people were going to give you shit for the. Tatum.

[Bill Simmons]

No, I didn't think that at all. I thought Giannis was 28.

[Ryan Rosillo]

There has not been a day.

[Bill Simmons]

Even the great ones make mistakes.

[Ryan Rosillo]

There's not been a day where I thought Tatum was better than Giannis. Although.

[Bill Simmons]

No, you're getting four extra years, and.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I'll tell you, like, Tatum this year, man, I think he's incredible. The numbers may not scream it at you if you're not paying attention, but to see what he is doing to some of these defenses and what they're trying to do to him. And like Houston last night, the entire thing was blitz him, double him, and he was still turning the corner on some of these traps and it wasn't like he was scoring every single time. But there's an, there's, there's not something like that that just goes, oh wow, look at this jump. Look at the shooting number. Look at the scoring because the shooting for the team is down, which is another part of the Celtics thing. This is the best Tatums ever played. I've never, you know, much like I was talking about with Jaren Jackson, like this is the best I've ever felt about Tatum. And the fact, the age thing here is I think he actually be super ranked ahead of young.

[Bill Simmons]

Two things, responsibility. It's among the toughest in the league. What he does every night, durability. It's surprising when he doesn't play. And when you saw, and I had saw those back to back LA games in person, both teams strategy was just beat the shit out of Tatum, make him work, don't let him get to his. If he's going to get to a spot, make him have to shove his way there. Always have a guy behind him, always chip him like he's almost treated like the Pats treated Marshall Falk in that Super Bowl. Everybody's, every smart team's game plan is push them, nudge him, shove him, just make it hard for him for four quarters.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Or like Ben Coates in the end zone bet.

[Bill Simmons]

Or Ben, my guy Ben Coates getting tackled by four Dolphins at the same time. But he just keeps coming back. And that if there's a one disappointing thing with me with him, it's just like when you play like the Clippers backups. That's the kind of game this year where SGA is like, I'm going to have 55, don't worry, everybody can take the night off. And Tatum's missing that one kind of look out, I'm scorched earth tonight. But that's it. If you're going to nitpick, that's really the only nitpick where it's like, ah, tonight's the night where Tatum just scores 47 and we kill whoever we're playing. He's just not that kind of player. But I think it's okay. He gets everybody involved. And this is the best he's ever played. We agree. I can't put him ahead of Luka Doncic at four.

[Ryan Rosillo]

No, that's fine. Although there's an availability thing going on there where it's not.

[Bill Simmons]

That's why he dropped. Like, Luke has never been number one in the rankings and it probably might not ever happen because of the durability thing with him. Whereas, like, Shay is number three, I have Jokic two, and then for the first time, a new number one. We've only had, I think 10, 11, 12 number ones ever. Victor. Oh, yeah. Not Pritchard Wemby number one. I think he has to be as great. Jokic is having one of the great offensive seasons in the history of the league and is the best teammate since Bird of Magic and Curry. And if you want to win a title, he'd be the first pick. But I don't know from a trade asset standpoint. The spurs aren't even, like, they're not. You're. You're saying the word, hey, would you ever trade Vick? And they're hanging up. You're just getting the V and the I out. It's a hangup. So he's number one.

[Ryan Rosillo]

They're like, no, we were calling about a three way with Krechi.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, they call you back. So are you good with that?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Ryan Rosillo]

I. I don't know where this Jokic thing is going to end up all time. Because, like, this, this stretch is, like, so ridiculous. And that's why when we were in Denver, Memphis, I hope he gets another one so that the simpletons are allowed to accept him into a higher tier. And I know that sounds, like, shitty for me to say it, but I just get so tired of, like, when I look at how people rank stuff. Like, do you really want to be this simple? You just want to count stuff?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Like, that's all it ever is to you, is that this guy was good because of this and this guy was bad because of that. Then what's the point of watching any of this stuff? It happened a lot with college football, I thought, this year, too. And I really hope, like, Jokic gets the one that allows him to be talked about in the way that he deserves to be talked about because of what this stretch is.

[Bill Simmons]

Would you put the Finals MVP above or below resurrecting Westbrook's career as the greatest feat of his career. If you had to rank them. One, two.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Westbrook. Westbrook. I was thinking about this the other day, and I don't know if this is going to work. But, like, Westbrook's your buddy from home that just, you know, has it dialed in and everybody knows the routine. You know, the girls probably maybe liked him when he was in high school or whatever. But then if you bring him to, like, la, you've been living in LA for a few years and you just be like, hey, look, dude, just so you know, like, it's getting harder out here. Yeah. And you're going to be competing with, like, different dudes. And, like, it's up to you to accept the fact that, like, you're not going to get into some places and people are going to big time you. And that if you recognize a guy from a TV show and you tell him that you're a big fan, he's not going to talk to you and he's going to walk away and, like, they're just going to smell the non LA on you.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ryan Rosillo]

And you'll have to adjust. And some people leave and never come back because they hated their experience. And I think Westbrook showed up to Denver being like, I do get it. Like, I do. My hometown stuff might not work. I find Westbrook in this run funny because he can be almost too deferential where he'll, like, want to get it back to Jokic in a spot where it's not even, like, a great catch for Jokic because Westbrook doesn't want to do all the things that he's been criticized for doing in the past. Now, I still think there's a version of this with the spacing with Gordon and Westbrook to close, like, a playoff game. Like, yeah, I'm allowing, like, is that actually going to happen? But they needed him. They needed him. He was cheap. He was. And he's giving him, like, value minutes.

[Bill Simmons]

He gives them durability minutes and stats. They needed all three, but.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

I think Danny Chow wrote a great piece for the Ringer about this last week. It's the most unlikely connection of any two players we've had in a while. And for me, like, you know, as. As an obvious Giant Jokic fan, this is like the stuff that made Bird and Magic so special they could resuscitate guys. Like, Magic did this with Bob McAdoo, you know, Bird did this with Walton in 86, and even, like, bit players like Seechting and whoever. Geraldine, Jerry.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But the fact that Jokic took Westbrook, who not only was not an asset, but this might have been the only team in the league that would have signed him and somebody were like, oh, my God, how's this going to work? Holy shit. And then turns him. And they have this like real ESP thing now. And Jokic loves him. I think that's, I think that's such like a feather in his cap just historically that he can, he can basically play with any player in the league and make them better, which is like the highest level of basketball you can reach.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Westbrook's really appreciated, though. He's appreciated more by players than he is by those of us that don't play because I think they look at what he did at his peak and there is a respect for him that we probably don't understand as much. But you also realize with Westbrook, like, which version are we getting? Because the LA thing with the Lakers was a disaster. And I think he resented so much of the dynamic there, which I can even see his, his point of view on that.

[Bill Simmons]

He was disrespected, marginalized, and not used correctly and then blamed for everything and thrown into every single trade rumor possible. So, yeah, he wasn't a huge fan.

[Ryan Rosillo]

True. But I mean, it's not like he, it like his style of play was going to lead to, oh, this doesn't work. Like, once again, the players expecting to be GMs or sometimes I'm like, do you not watch league pass? Like, how do you not understand, like, how this is going to clog up some of the things that you'll want to do?

[Bill Simmons]

Like, but it doesn't explain the Clippers thing last year, how bad he was.

[Ryan Rosillo]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

When it seemed like his career was over.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Right. The Dallas playoff series, when he decided to like prioritize just being like pissed off at everybody and taking himself out and like huge spots where you're like, what are you doing right now?

[Bill Simmons]

He's a piss off maniac.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, right. It's like you can do like, you're getting us any buckets or anything. No. So now we can't even trust you to be out there. So, you know, you would think that it'd be easy for somebody to go, hey, look, all you have to do with Jokic is just cut, man. Be, be ready and cut. And when you think he doesn't see you, he actually still sees you. So just cut. And.

[Bill Simmons]

And then it turned out Westbrook was one of the better cutters in the league. Like, who knew? Been watching him since 2008. And all of a sudden he's like this supernatural first step cut, almost like a wide receiver coming off the line of scrimmage. And you find it every time.

[Ryan Rosillo]

We'll worry though, because there's times where you can see like in a game or if he has like an open look from three in the corner. And I know the corner numbers are really good, right? But if he clanks it in a big spot, like the next time he may get that catch in the same look. You can see him just not want to. I've seen that happen. So I don't know if there's numbers that will tell me that it's true. Not true. But I've seen him where it's just clear as day, okay, he doesn't want to pull the trigger on this. And I don't know if it's like, hey, I just bricked the last one and this is a big spot. I don't know if it's him being deferential of like, hey, let me get it back to Jokic. I wonder what the Jokic Murray two man game in a playoff series when you have Gordon, where you have that spacing decision that Minnesota always messes with, where it's like, hey, put Rudy on Gordon because that way Rudy can freelance off of him. That gives NAS the Jokic matchup that Cat did so well with last year. Can you put, can you run the two man game if Gordon and Westbrook are both on the other side? And are you going to start like dealing with some real spacing issues and.

[Bill Simmons]

We'Ll get used to it after two weeks of games where they're like, oh, all right, game four, now I understand what they're doing.

[Ryan Rosillo]

That's the only thing that when I watch it, I go, you know, I wonder what that'll look like then. But up until this point, it's been to your point for a team that we were like, where's the depth? Just his energy and even like a diminished version of Westbrook athletically when he starts going and he realizes gonna get the ball back. Because Jokic is just that good. Yeah, it motivates you to be, be like involved in all of this stuff. Like, hey, if I keep cutting, I get just all these easy baskets. Cause I'm still so much quicker. Even though it's later in his career.

[Bill Simmons]

I can't believe we just spent three minutes talking about Russell Westbrook. But it was totally worth it because it speaks to Jokic. Like the fact that look at, look.

[Ryan Rosillo]

What we did today. I said, Trey Young was too low. I took hard inside and something.

[Bill Simmons]

I was incredibly, incredibly concerned about that Denver team. And now I think they're fine and they're, they'll be there in the end. We'll see if they can get a buyout guy or just one other piece with maybe they can dump Zeke Najee and have some trade flexibility anyway. Group A Palo Number 8 Anthony Edwards Giannis 6 Tatum 5 Doncic SGA Jokic in our new number one, Victor Wembanyama, who probably at some point this season is going to have like a 40, 2012 block game with like seven assists. He's gonna, he'll have some box score that we've never seen before. But we've seen 30 Jokic box scores I think I've never seen before this year. All right, that was fun. This is gonna go up on the ringer.com later in the week. The official list. My conciliary Rossillo, thank you so much for doing this. You have two more podcasts this week for you, right?

[Ryan Rosillo]

Yeah, Wednesday and then a Loaded football show on Friday.

[Bill Simmons]

Loaded, loaded, loaded. Okay. Great to see you, Rosilo.

[Ryan Rosillo]

Thank you.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Rosillo. Thanks to Kyle and Gahao and Saruti. As always, I will be back with another podcast on Thursday. Don't forget you can watch this on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. You can watch the new rewatchables we did before sunrise that is on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel. And I'll see you on Thursday. Must be 21 plus in president select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18/plus in President D.C. gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-550-24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text hopeny in New York.