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The Bill Simmons Podcast
The Buddy Hield Game, Indy’s Dangerous, a Clips Collapse, and “Whaddya Do” Teams With Ryen Russillo
02:23:16
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- [00:00]
Bill Simmons
You're listening and watching the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel, our friends America's number one sportsbook, and they've made it easier than ever to get in on the action during an NBA playoff game, even after a tip off. Just look for the live SGP tab on the FanDuel Sportsbook app and build your own bet slip. Then sit back, relax, track the outcome of your parlay right in the app. And if you don't already have it, download the FanDuel app today to make every moment more the Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end episode for additional details. Must be 21 + on President Select States Gaming Prom Call 100 GAMBLER visit rg-help.com Coming up, it was a game seven weekend. Priscilla and I are here to talk about all of it next. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. What do I look forward to every NBA playoff season? Well, I'm always hoping the Celtics do well. I'm always hoping we have great storylines, great games, great matchups, great game Sevens. I just hope for good basketball. But the NBA playoffs are even better with Michelob Ultra, the official beer partner of the NBA. Plus, they're getting fans closer to the game with a chance to win courtside tickets and more. Enter now at michelobaltra.com courtside Michelobatra Superior Access Courtside 2024-25 sweepstakes. No purchase necessary. Open to US residents 21 or older. Ends on July 1, 2025. Multiple entry periods. Visit michelobelcher.com SuperiorAccess Courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and official rules. Message and data rates may apply. Void where prohibited. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. I have a new rewatchables coming for you on Monday. It's a big movie. It's a big, big movie. That's all I'm telling you. You've seen it. Monday night it's going to be on The Ringer Movies YouTube channel. It's going to be a video podcast on Spotify. It might be more than one part, or maybe it'll just be one part. I don't want to spoil it. Could be one part, could be two. Get ready. This podcast is going to be back Tuesday and then Thursday and you can follow the clips and videos on The Bill Simmons YouTube channel, where we went live tonight after Golden State and Houston with Ryan Rosillo. And it's coming right now. First, our friends from pro jib.
- [02:49]
Ryan Rosillo
Bill.
- [02:50]
Bill Simmons
Simmons here with Ryan Rosillo. It's Buddy Heel day. Who knew the nephew of the Klay Thompson game. We now have the the Buddy Healed game and also an incredible Steph Curry game where he's just getting doubled the entire time. But Buddy healed 33 points, nine for 11 from three. And the warriors hold off the Houston Rockets, who were a tenacious band of pit bulls just coming and coming and coming, but unfortunately for them, could not make a shot. Rosello, what are you going to remember about this game 10 years from now?
- [03:22]
Ryan Rosillo
10 years from now? Probably not much, but it is not exactly on par with my favorite step game of all time in 2019. Scoreless in the first half and then 23 in the third quarter. So it goes for over 30 in the second. It's probably my favorite step game. But yeah, he wasn't getting it done. He was making other plays. Certainly his movement alone opens up other things for other people. But when Amend Thompson couldn't contest on that three point to the right side, the first thought is he actually got an open look against Amen. It actually happened. And then we realized it was a continuation of the calf injury that he had on that layup attempt. And so I think if you're a Houston fan, you're probably not going to remember this in 10 years, but at least this week you're wondering how the game goes, if a man is able to just stay in there. Because it was, that was honestly, I think, one of the most defensively challenged series that I've seen from Steph in his career. And granted he's older now too, but it was just a grind to even get open looks.
- [04:17]
Bill Simmons
Can I make the case for the Steph Curry performance? Can I zag? Is it zag time already?
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Ryan Rosillo
Well, you're not comparing it to 19, right?
- [04:26]
Bill Simmons
No.
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Ryan Rosillo
All right, thank you.
- [04:28]
Bill Simmons
You know what I liked about it? First of all, I think IME from the 2022 finals was just like, fuck this, I'm not letting this guy beat us. I'm going to, not only am I going to double him when he has the ball and send second guys at him, I'm going to double him when he doesn't have the ball. Have you ever seen a guy get guarded with multiple guys when he wasn't anywhere near the ball? Because that's what they were doing. They were grabbing him, they were holding him, they were like double teaming him from back and forth and they were just like, you're just, you're not going to beat us. So then it came down to Buddy Hield and Pizzemski for three quarters. Buddy was great. Pods was. That was a rough pods game. He played hard, but when you think, what did he finish with? He was 4 for 12, 1 for 7 from 3. All of those were open, but they basically were just like, we're not letting step. So Steph figures this out early and you can either try to go hero ball and just launch some crazy threes with a hand in your face or just continue to try to keep making the right plays, swinging the ball, trusting your teammates. It was a great, trust your teammates performance. And then when they finally let up and he saw some daylight, he grabbed it and then Jimmy took care of the rest. But I really thought, like, he did everything you had to do in this game. That team, there was one stretch where they had Thompson and Eason out there with Jabari Smith and there was like this three minute stretch of defense where it was like, oh, my God. Like it seemed like a miracle just to get a shot off in 24 seconds, but they unfortunately couldn't sustain it and they couldn't make a shot. I thought that was such an impressive win by Golden State, though. They were down to five guys, plus Looney that you could trust. Five and a half. Five and a third.
- [06:16]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. Kaminga got out there and he had some. He had some interesting possessions, you know, so if you look at that with Moody, he only played 11 minutes in this game. Yeah, I mean, Draymond's 40 minutes and he hit a couple shots early, but you just know offensively it's not necessarily something you can rely on. He had two shot clock threes in the second half. I think they're both in the fourth quarter. You're like, oh, my God. Because there's all these plays where the entire defense is designed to. We want it to end up in the wrong guy's hands. And if you're thinking of Houston and Ima's game plan and the players executing it, they actually executed it perfectly. You just don't expect Buddy heel to go for 23 in the first half. So if you don't have that second guy, he's. Even Jimmy is going to go a little bit slower. Like, there's even a few moments with Jimmy before that outburst where you're like, van Vliet got him on a turnover. And you're like, man, you've got Van Vliet isoed. Like, you gotta. You gotta go with this guy. They didn't score A point for four plus minutes until you had that Jimmy layup, then the threes, and then you had the review on the layup after Beale forced the turnover when Van Vliet pushed Butler. And that pretty much was the game. But it's incredibly frustrating for a Houston team that probably feels like they did a lot of thing, a lot of things right tonight. But you know, they ended up with six made threes. Three of those were garbage time. So over the course of the game being competitive, a team that averaged 11 threes per game, games one through six, had three. So technically they had six in this one. But you know, when you and I were talking this morning, it's almost like Buddy healed, even though less is expected of him, took on the Van Vliet role that we've seen in the last few games, because that was a huge difference. We can talk big lineups, rebounding, edge, second chance points, points to paint. All these things are real things. But Van Vliet was playing out of his mind for three straight games in the series.
- [07:55]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, and I think if you're the warriors, you're just saying to yourself, is that gonna happen four times in a row? I'm gonna do. I wrote down with like four minutes left. The Rockets were three from 14 from three right as the game had gone south. And the warriors, how many turnovers did they end up with? 7. They had five turnovers with like four minutes left in the fourth quarter. And Kerr, that's been his passion point. Like if we play defense and we don't turn the ball over, we're. We're always either going to be in the game or we're going to win. And the turnovers drive them crazy. And this is a team that can get really sloppy with the ball sometimes. Not today. Took care of it. I. That. That's another thing with the Steph game. Steph had two turnovers. How many times did he have two guys on him where he's like throwing the ball behind his head to Draymond or throwing these cross court passes or. I don't know. He finished 22, 10 and 7. He led the team in rebounding, led the team in assists, had two steals, two blocks. He led the team in every category except points and had Thompson coming at him. Thompson was hitting a point in the third quarter when it just seemed like he thought he could go to the basket every single time.
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Ryan Rosillo
Cause he could.
- [09:06]
Bill Simmons
And then he was guarding Steph on the other hand, on the other end and shutting him down. And there was this moment where I was Like, God damn it. Do I have to raise the ceiling of the Ahmed Thompson building? Do I? Do I? I. Cause I had it set at 15 floors. Do I have to, like, blow the roofs out, bring it up to 25? He is. I thought. I just thought he was such a gem. And I. I think you're right. It's an interesting what if for them if he doesn't hurt his calf. Could they have, like, pulled this off defensively? My thing is they just didn't get any offense from anybody other than Thompson. I mean, Shengoon had some around the basket points, but everyone else, Jalen Green, 3 for 8 in what could be his last Rockets performance. Dylan Brooks 3 for 9, Jabari 1 for 5, Terry Eason, 2 for 6. Like, they just couldn't get anybody to get hot. And then Van V couldn't do it.
- [09:56]
Ryan Rosillo
In the double Big thing that's been such a huge part of this series where, you know, I think there's a version of how we talk about this and similarities to how we talk about Minnesota and Los Angeles, where it's like running the football over the course of seven games. If we play big and you play small, it's just going to hurt more. We're going to get extra opportunities, we're going to beat you on the boards. And over the course of a series, like, having to do this every other night with us, you're going to pay some sort of tax. And you'd wondered if that's how this series had shifted, because when we talked after game one, I remember thinking, like, remember they started hacking Adams and they yanked him. I was like, I wonder if ime's talking with his staff after the game, being like, we should not have given in to them on that. You know, maybe it's worth it for us because of our defense, to sacrifice whatever we're not getting from Adams, the free throw line. So guess what happened? They actually defiantly kept him in when they did it later in the series. And it felt like. It felt like that was like this real turning point in this series, that we're going to stay big, we're going to stay in the zone, and it doesn't really matter. And then IME clearly just didn't like what he had. I think the Looney minutes probably change up some of the calculation on that because Kerr probably felt like he could just trust Looney a little bit more.
- [11:01]
Bill Simmons
Allowed 11 minutes from Looney. It felt like he played like 25, only played 11.
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Ryan Rosillo
They were. They were too. You know, when you trap Steph like eventually he's going to figure it out. And they had two in the first half where Looney was the release on that and he had a layup and then he had the free throws that was back to back possessions for three points. And then they started trapping him in the second half too and that was turning into four on three behind him. Which doesn't guarantee open shots or anything. But I, it really just comes down to the shot making. I think that's what's so great about Amend. Like I feel, I'm with you. I feel even better about him now going like that was actually the only dude with the bonus hands or is like fuck this, like I'm going to.
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Bill Simmons
See 23, let's look it up. I don't think 22, 23, 20.
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Ryan Rosillo
He just turned 12, 22 in January because remember those guys are a bit older coming out of the pre draft, maybe like a year or two.
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Bill Simmons
Well, you know the other thing, it felt like Golden State, like you were talking about the rebounding. Cause I agreed like watching, watching the game go along, it's like ah, they're holding their own today. Houston out rebounded them by 14 and it really came down to when you only make three three point shots in the first 48 minutes of an NBA game and the other team ends up with 18. I don't care how many extra rebounds you get, if you're going to be -15 on three pointers, that's too many points. You know, it's just, it's, it becomes math after a while. If one team is going to get 54 points from three and the other team's going to get 18, well this.
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Ryan Rosillo
Is the impossible number. They have 14 to three in the offensive rebounding edge. They only took two more shots and normally that's like a massive turn. You're like, okay, where's the rest of the math? Like what do I have to figure? It's only four worst turnovers on the Houston side of it. So normally when you're doing, doing something like that, when you look at those Minnesota Lakers box scores at times you just go, dude, they took. At this point in the game when it still matters, they've taken six more shot, 16 more shot attempts is the point I'm trying to make because you just go, you know, even if you're not even shooting it that well, that many more attempts, it's just, it's just hard to beat a team that has that many more opportunities. And that wasn't even the case. Even though it felt like they were beating them up. I also felt like Golden State really battled around the paint on, where it's like, oh, man, they're deep again. They've got a seal. They've got all these bodies. They're just taller and bigger than them everywhere. But they were fighting like crazy.
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Bill Simmons
It was like the Clippers yesterday. Same thing. Like, just so much fight. Oh, no, bad analogy. No, no, it was the opposite of the Clippers. My bad. I got my wire screwed up. It was the complete opposite of the Clippers. My bad.
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Ryan Rosillo
Not a lot of fight there. Not a lot of.
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Bill Simmons
Not a lot of fighting over screens, protecting the rim, grabbing rebounds.
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Ryan Rosillo
Is it best of nine, right?
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Bill Simmons
Game eight. We gotta save Hardin. Let's rest these dudes. So Buddy healed. How many career playoff games do you think he's had, counting the seven in the series?
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Ryan Rosillo
I don't know, 19, 11.
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Bill Simmons
All right, he's played 11 games in his career. This was easily the best one.
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Ryan Rosillo
So wait, so that's just the series last year with the Sixers, or he didn't want to shoot?
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Bill Simmons
Yeah, yeah, that's it. And I was like, wow, he really replicated the Klay Thompson game. And then I was like, I gotta make sure I can't remember the Clay stats from that game. 41 points, 11 for 18 from three. Klay Thompson in 2016. So, yeah, Clay, you're safe. You're way over here, Buddy. But I mean, to get that out of him. And I've always kind of liked Buddy Heald. It's always been one of those. You're always, you know, certain guys in the NBA you're glass half full with. We were like, ah, it's the right situation. I could really see him thriving. And it's just never really happened in a sustained way for a good team. Then it's. You think, is he just a good stats, bad team guy? And then he just became a bad stats, mediocre team guy. And they sign him in the off season and he has a really good first four weeks with them, and it's like, oh, man, he might be able to be Clay. And then halfway through the year, he's not playing anymore. And then they get this out of them and they save them. And now they live to fight another day. I don't. The Minnesota matchup seems pretty intimidating after what we just watched, but a lot of pride on this Steve Kerr, Drayvon Green, Steph Curry era, I think.
- [15:15]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. I'll admit, throughout this series, you know, even wanting the Steph thing to keep going, because I just Enjoy, Steph. You know, granted, they weren't going to get OKC unless they were advanced. Right. And OKC advances, but it kept coming back to me. And then even so, with Minnesota's options and their size, I just was like, this. This is a nice little Golden State story, but, I mean, come on, are you there? Are you going to pick him against Minnesota?
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Bill Simmons
How healthy do we think Butler can be in a week? And how healthy did he look to you today?
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Ryan Rosillo
He doesn't have a week.
- [15:50]
Bill Simmons
No, I know. I assume they're going to lose game one they just had. I mean, that game they just played counted as, like, a game and a half. That's. That's the thing with these playoff games. Like, if you start doing, like. Was that just one playoff game? Like, that game we just watched was a game and a half of miles and energy expended and, you know, they're challenging everything. Yeah.
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Ryan Rosillo
It's like the pitch count thing we always talk about.
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Bill Simmons
Yeah. That was a 145 pitch game by the warriors just now, and you're asking them to basically throw three days from now and try to throw seven innings again. So I just assumed.
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Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I mean, they're playing in 48 hours, man. Yeah, they're actually playing 48 hours. So that might be one of those. Game one. You know, I don't know what the line is yet here, but I'm sure it just got set. Yeah, I. I really.
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Bill Simmons
Do you want to. I have the series line. Do you want to guess? Minnesota. Golden State.
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Ryan Rosillo
Minnesota. Minus 165.
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Bill Simmons
I mean, you're getting really good at this. One of the things I'm proudest at in life is I felt like you were gambling. Gambling. What's the word? Lingual. When I met you. But now I feel like you could move to Vegas for an NBA season and maybe make a run at it. Almost there. Minus 155.
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Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I used to be really, really into it when I was younger.
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Bill Simmons
Oh, there you go. It was dormant.
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Ryan Rosillo
It was.
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Bill Simmons
Van Belt beat it out of you.
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Ryan Rosillo
No. Luckily, I didn't have enough money to ever get into too much trouble, but it was. It was definitely something I look forward to a lot. And then once I, you know, once I was at espn, like, it was a thing that you weren't actually supposed to talk about, remember?
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Bill Simmons
Oh, I. I remember. So I got a couple phone calls. Yeah, I don't know.
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Ryan Rosillo
So I. I don't know how Minnesota, you know, I would have thought they were a healthy favorite in this one, other than maybe public yeah.
- [17:46]
Bill Simmons
Minus 166 on FanDuel right now because. But that's factoring in. They're almost definitely going to win game one. I would assume they're just going to have.
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Ryan Rosillo
What's the line on the game?
- [17:58]
Bill Simmons
Line on the game is minus five and a half. That'll go up. Um, Couple other. Couple other storylines from this game. Draymond defensively. I know, I know. It's a theme over and over again today in this game. He was like a sweeper in soccer or he was like Char on hockey. He was just under the. Under the. In front of the net, just protected the goalie and just come jumping out from under the basket and swiping down and stripping or protecting the rim or going vertical. I thought he was. And they were able to steer the defense around him. Being able to do that and not really having to guard anybody, just pop out and help and jump in. I thought he was awesome. And those threes he hit was awesome. That was among the better. I got it three years ago. I didn't think he still had a game like that in him. When we were watching 2022, it felt like he was phasing toward the next phase of his career.
- [18:58]
Ryan Rosillo
It's funny, when you play really high level defense and you just call it like a two way player, and I think there's an argument to be said that he's actually still a one way player. Right. There's not a lot of offense there. I'd say the layups, it's almost in his head a little bit. We saw some of it in game six where he had probably a better opportunity to just go at it and then see what happens.
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Bill Simmons
And then, yeah, when you start contorting, when you start doing this stuff on.
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Ryan Rosillo
The layups, I mean, plenty of guys screwed up trying to play for contact or whatever, and then he's always good for a few passes. You're like, we're. Because some of the. Some of them are. You know, look, he's a great passer. He's. He's one of the best passing kind of like hybrid guys of his era. But there's also some passes, I think, as he's gotten a little bit older, where it's like, man, you were really forcing that one in there. Or he's just like swinging it to guys. It's like, did you think you had an angle on any of that stuff? So look, all of that, the offensive side, whatever you get from him is a plus. He wasn't on the ball in this. In this game tonight much at all. There wasn't a lot of playmaking, Draymond stuff, if anything, because it always felt like they were playing five against four when Draymond had the ball, like, there just wasn't a lot of room for him to find some of the stuff that he maybe would normally do in a regular season game. But defensively, to have to go up against and just, look, we know he's a tough guy. We know he's strong as hell. I think there's probably a Shingoon conversation if he's a little bit more polished and a little bit more aggressive, even though he's incredibly skilled. I felt like tonight's a disappointing Shingun game because there's so many possessions where you're like, dude, you had just. All you had to do was be big and go to the rim. You had the champions against you and switch. Yeah, like, just. Just go for Draymond to hold up when he's battling Adams and Shingoon as much as he was for those minutes. And him not getting a foul trouble tonight was a huge part of it, because then Steve didn't. I don't know. I called him Steve. But why? Kerr didn't have to kind of manage his minutes at all.
- [20:44]
Bill Simmons
You know, the ref. One of the last Laker games, the ref did the challenge, and he was giving the verdict on the challenge, and he said lebron instead of James. And I thought. I just thought that was really funny. I caught that he was like, lebron had position, first name, or is this like a Beyonce thing now?
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Ryan Rosillo
Poor Mark Davis did a Christian Brown one. He called him Christian Braun. Oh, if you're him, you're gonna confidence. You're gonna be thinking, like, man, I've been in the league a few years. Like, come on.
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Bill Simmons
A couple other notes from this game. Steph is now 5 and oh. In playoff series against Houston. Now, that counts the 2016 one where he got hurt and they won anyway, but they still have not beaten a team with Steph Curry.
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Ryan Rosillo
That's what his gravity is like, though. Even if he's not playing, he's just in the building.
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Bill Simmons
Are we going want to have a gravity combo? Just even street clothes gravity?
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Ryan Rosillo
Well, I think it's at least worth mentioning because, you know, when I think of, like, we get to these points of the playoffs where if you don't like somebody and you have a platform, there's a really good chance that the guy you don't like gets eliminated, and then you just get to say that the guy sucks. It's almost this video game where there's just different tiers of, like, all you're trying to navigate is a way to get to saying the guy you don't like sucks. And the chances, like, the odds are in your favor that you'll get to say it about certain players. And my contention has always been, like, some players are really great, and they're great in elimination games, and they still lose. And when Steph doesn't have any points up until the very end of the first half, I'm watching it going, well, this is going to turn into one of those moments where when everything that's happening offensively, you know, there's a few possessions where he just doesn't have it on cuts. But, like, the. Buddy healed left side. First half three, and Van Gundy called it out. They ran Steph through, everybody shifted to the right side, and then Buddy's fine, and then there's a Draymond drive on the left side where they run Steph through everything, everybody. It's like a wave of people just going to his side. So by him just being active, because I think there's a lot of stars in those spots, especially a little bit older, are just so frustrated they're not going to cut. You know, they're. They're probably going to put up a few more shots just to say, at least I took a few. And he. He really wouldn't even take the bad shots if he felt like it wasn't a good look.
- [22:54]
Bill Simmons
So you're coming around. I thought it was I. You were. You're on my side now. I feel like I won you over. Well, I thought that was a good step game. I was ready to zag the whole time. Even in halftime when he had three points, I was like, you know what? I'm going to figure out how to do this.
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Ryan Rosillo
I guess I don't feel like you should have to defend the guy anymore at 37 years old. And I'm not picking them in the next round, so this has been kind of nice.
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Bill Simmons
Oh, that getting off.
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Ryan Rosillo
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I don't think they're going to be.
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Bill Simmons
Want me to help you? Want me to help you with their bags as you get off the bandwagon? It's like 1923. You're just getting off the train.
- [23:30]
Ryan Rosillo
When I asked you, did you pick or did you just give me the odds?
- [23:33]
Bill Simmons
I'll. I'll give you a thought in a second. Can I. Can we talk about Steve Kerr for a second? Cause I thought he coached an awesome game today.
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Ryan Rosillo
What did you like?
- [23:43]
Bill Simmons
I rarely do this. Cause this is the old Hubie Brown thing about Hubie Brown. Loved every timeout. I thought Kurt called like three or four of the best timeouts of the playoffs. He felt. And I only. We've talked about this in the past. There's only a couple coaches that really understand how to protect the lead, where it's like, all right, we are up between eight and 15 points for an hour here. I can't let them get a run. I can't let the crowd get into it. I feel something bad happening. Timeout right now. And he did it, like, every time. I felt like, oh, man, I think the wheels are about to come off. He was just like, I've had enough. He had that one play when they went zone in the fourth quarter and Van Gundy called it out and he was like, he needs to get Jimmy Butler back in the game to break this zone. And There was like 10 seconds left in the shot clock. And Kerr's like, timeout. I. I don't. Wait. I don't like the possession we're about to have. Let me. Let me preempt this to know, not know what you're getting from any of your bench guys, right? Think about the bench. It was, other than Looney, just a complete no show from everybody. He knows he has to play Butler and Curry big minutes. He obviously talked about that, but I think they went 44 and 45 for minutes. And it's like, how can I takes Curry out with like a minute before the end of the quarter just to kind of buy in that little break. I decided a really good job.
- [25:06]
Ryan Rosillo
So he called one at 9:42 when he didn't like it immediately, and he wanted to get Butler back in the game. And I love that timeout because I do think, especially in this game where it was low scoring. You know, there have been games in the past where you're watching a coach and he wants to make the substitution and then they don't have a stoppage. He doesn't want to burn the timeout. And you're like, okay, well, what's more valuable this time out? Which, again, I'd always want to have one in my back pocket, especially on an inbound in a close game. But there's also some math of, okay, we just went three possessions on offense without this guy. And in Game 6, where Detroit beat New York, Brunson left the game and then he went to go to the scores table at about two minutes left.
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Bill Simmons
Game five, you mean?
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Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. Excuse me. Game Five. Right. Cause they eliminated him in six.
- [25:49]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
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Ryan Rosillo
So game five, when Detroit won and granted they were dealing with a Brunson situation that isn't normal. But Tibbs is thinking clearly he's going to get some kind of stoppage in there. And when I was watching him like you, you just gave up multiple offensive possessions with him at the scores table because you didn't want to call a timeout to get the guy in there. And really when you think of the game and how close it was and who Brunson is, the two minutes. Yeah. So it doesn't happen very often, but I'm with you especially on that one. At 9:42.
- [26:16]
Bill Simmons
I have one other big storyline from this game.
- [26:20]
Ryan Rosillo
Is it Houston or is it Golden State?
- [26:22]
Bill Simmons
But we're going to take a break. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. We all have our routines during the playoffs. I'm the same man who once wore the same T shirt every single day during the 2003 baseball playoffs. I am the same person who will tell my wife to come into the room when I need a team to win because she's good luck during the NBA playoffs. These are things that happen. Well, Michelob Ultra a great addition to any game time routine. It is a superior lay beer. It's really great. And they're getting fans closer to the game with exclusive prizes including courtside seats to see your favorite team play. Signed memorabilia, lots more. Enter for your chance to win@mcglobultra.com Courtside McGlob Ultra Superior Access Courtside 2024-2025 Sweepstakes no purchase, no necessary. Open a US residence 21 or older. Ends on July 1, 2025. Multiple entry periods. Visit michelobaltra.com SuperiorAccess Courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and official rules. Message and data rates may apply. Void where prohibited. Here's the other big storyline. Houston lost in round one and now I feel like if they won, the Giannis trade becomes a little bit harder as a destination because it's like yo, we won. Let's follow the motto of OKC and some of these other teams. Now it's like, hey, we lost in a game seven. We have a chance to get Giannis. What's it going to? Oh, it's going to be Sengun and, and I don't know, Jabari and Jalen Green. Pick three. Eason, Jalen Green, three of those guys and a bunch of picks for Giannis like let's go can we'll resign bamboo for the extra year. We'll keep Brooks, we'll have Giannis, we'll have. We'll have Thompson, we'll still have some picks and some maneuverability and let's overpay and they have the best chance to overpay and put Giannis in a situation. But as we talked about a week ago, they also have the best chance to give Milwaukee guys back because Milwaukee can't really tank because they're under picks. So they could at least give them a bunch of players to be like, yeah, you guys are getting a ton of assets here. Who knows? Like, let's say it's Sengun, Tari, Eason and Jabari. Like, that's a pretty good haul with all the picks for Giannis. So I felt like if they lost this game, maybe the Giannis thing becomes way more realistic. Do you. Do you think I'm right?
- [28:55]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, I think the way it's discussed, I would say you're right. I resist all of that, though. I think that's the dumbest shit you can do when you start planning based on like, hey, we won a first round matchup, but we, we lost in the second round. So if we had lost in the first round, we would approach our team entirely differently.
- [29:11]
Bill Simmons
You and I agree. I'm just trying to get. I'm trying to base that on the history of how the NBA has gone, where people can fool themselves because they want around to be like, oh, we're closer than we. And I think they should try to get Giannis, and if they can keep Thompson out of the deal, just do it.
- [29:30]
Ryan Rosillo
I would try to figure out a way to move some of these younger pieces because you have so many. There's younger guys that have value, that don't even play. And I think the damning part of this series is the Jalen Green conversation. He's just.
- [29:44]
Bill Simmons
Is there a conversation anymore?
- [29:45]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, I think there's a real conversation because the highs, whether it was the end of two years ago, which I always call the Gerald Green season, when Shingoon was out, he was so good, I felt like he turned a corner. I felt like the light was kind of going off with him in some of his playmaking. And then, you know, he's had his moments and we know what he can do scoring wise. But the game when he had 38, it's like, see, everything's fine. Everything's fine. Well, that was the aberration. I mean, he had 7, 9, 8, 11, 12, and 8 in the other six games. That's not just like, hey, he's young, and I know this is early, and yes, he is young and all this stuff, but a man clearly needs to be the priority for him around whatever they do with Van Vliet, whatever they do with Brooks. So if Green is taking away shot opportunities from a man next season, that's getting in the way of his development. Because, you know, again, a man isn't even like, fully formed. And just some of his reads, his aggression, his confidence, and Jalen's just kind of this wild card guy who drives and the decisions aren't great. And, you know, if they had made it, I would have thought all of these things. By the way, if they had won this series, if they had made it. To your point, you wonder if they go, okay, hey, we took a step forward as an organization and a couple things break our way or whatever. I would be really, really aggressive about adding to whoever you're keeping here and trying to get out there in the market. Because we're talking about Giannis, who's never lower than third best in the world in the conversation. I mean, who. And you wouldn't do Amend for him. You would say, hey, I'm sorry, I'm.
- [31:20]
Bill Simmons
Fourth in the world. No amends. Thompson's off the table. He's off the table. Not discussing him.
- [31:27]
Ryan Rosillo
Okay, so if it's a bidding war, because if we're doing any kind of Giannis conversation, he's not.
- [31:31]
Bill Simmons
You can't put Thompson in the deal. Like, at that point, I'm. And if I'm Milwaukee, I'm saying the whole summer, Thompson has to be in the deal. We're going to do that dance back and forth forever. But ultimately, if I'm Houston, I'm like, look, you're not getting him. We have a ton of picks. We have all these other guys, so let's figure this out. I think with the Jalen piece, the part that's disappointing to me, because what I really liked about him, when he had that moment that you talked about from two years ago, was it wasn't just the scoring. Like, I felt like he was starting to create shots for other guys. Guess how many assists he had from game four, Game five, Game six, Game seven. Four games.
- [32:10]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I have it up in front of me right now.
- [32:11]
Bill Simmons
All right? He had. Well, for the audience, he had six assists total in four games. So he's turned into this guy that he's either looking for his own shot or he's not doing anything for anybody else. And I feel like he's gone backward with that. The defense certainly isn't on the par with Thompson and Nissan and Jabari, who I think are just way, way better than him. And I don't know what he is like, would you trade for him? Let's say you're like, let's say you're a lottery team right now and it's like, oh, we can get Jalen Green, pretty good contract, 33 million next year. What's he worth? Is he worth a top five pick in this draft? I would say no.
- [32:48]
Ryan Rosillo
No, because you would still hope for like the unknown of hitting on somebody to cause control of the whole thing. Whereas you as a team, like, I wonder if Miami. But what would Miami be able to offer that would make sense? You know, is there some three team thing where Miami goes, you know what, we'll bring them in here and we're in transition anyway and we still think he's a really talented guy because I think we have seen that talent. But this is a really. And if you're doing local Houston radio this week, you know, it's a bummer of a Jalen Green conversation because now he's just in a men's way. If you bring him back next year, he's just in his way.
- [33:22]
Bill Simmons
If you were Houston, like, if we were running Houston, we would keep Thompson and Eason and we would try to do Sengun with Jalen Green with Jabari. Right. Those three plus picks, we'll take one of your bad contracts back with Giannis and let's try to figure it out. And now I get to keep Eason and I get to keep Thompson and I get to put them with Giannis. I bring Van V back, I have Brooks back and now my team's better. And FYI, I like Jabari as an asset. I think he's misused on this team. I just think they decide they stick him in the corner. They don't run plays for him. I think he plays hard. I like him defensively. I think he could be a stretch five on the right team. I actually that's somebody I would target this summer if I was somebody else.
- [34:09]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I still hold out some hope for him, but he also showed that the handle thing's a real problem in this series. And Steph had a defensive play against him on the left side on the baseline where Jabari's like, all right, I'm ready to start going to work. And Steph knew he couldn't dribble, so he just stayed straight up with him and he, he held up great against him and he had another play. I think it was in game six where he like went to kind of create on his own. I was like, damn it. You know, because I. I really like him and I'm with you. I think there's a role for him where he's playing 30 plus minutes a night and he's hitting threes and he's playing really good defense and all that kind of stuff. Even though Steph got him on a switch, she was so happy to get him on a switch and not have it be a men on that layup in the second half. But the only thing I would say about the Amend thing is if it's a bidding war, which I don't know why it would be that. Right. Giannis has to go to them and say, I'm good, but then also feel free to send me anywhere. That doesn't really seem to be the way any of this stuff works for Stars or it's not just open for Milwaukee to decide where they want to send them. So if Houston's not necessarily bidding against anybody and they put together a sexy package, then you're right, they shouldn't have to throw them in there. But if it's somehow turned into there's four or five teams involved in this, you know, then it becomes the kind of conversation of like, really, you wouldn't include in men in there for somebody who's as good as Giannis.
- [35:28]
Bill Simmons
But again, they have the advantage, though, because again, Milwaukee needs to get players back so they can compete next year. Unless they just decide their picks are sunk cost for a year, and Houston's really the only team, other than maybe the Knicks that could actually give them players that could still make them good because they have the Doc situation, too. Doc's got two years left in his deal. He's never wanted to be in a rebuilding situation ever. So he's not going to be happy. He's not going to be psyched to just throw in the towel. Do you think this ultimately was a win for Houston, this playoffs? Would you say it's a W to go to seven against Golden State and then you lose in seven because your offense, which was the thing everybody was pointing at this entire season as the thing that was going to sink you in the end? And. And then that's exactly what happened in the end.
- [36:17]
Ryan Rosillo
If you label it just as the two losing to the seven, I think you're losing sight of how ridiculous the Western playoffs were.
- [36:23]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [36:24]
Ryan Rosillo
So other years you'd be like, what a huge disappointment because they were on the cusp of it. They fall apart a Little bit at the end of the season because they were one of these great stories. And for two years now, they've been one of our favorite teams to watch because all these guys and wondering how it's all going to shake out. I still feel like the entire season is a. Is a positive. I know it hurts right now, but it's a positive. And you lost Steph. You know, you lost Steph. You lost the Warriors. The history is terrible, as you mentioned now with this group, this warriors group going against this franchise. So, you know, even though it's the two, I would throw the two seven part of this out because all of these teams two through seven were really close.
- [37:02]
Bill Simmons
Well, also the warriors lose that stupid spurs game, which comes back to haunt them because now they. Now Minnesota is the six seed with home court because they lost that ridiculous Harrison Barnes game where they were trying.
- [37:15]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah.
- [37:15]
Bill Simmons
And. And the spurs were just like, our season's kind of sucked. Wemby's been gone for two months. This will make and make our season if we can somehow stick it to you guys in this game. Chris Paul Barnes and they stick it to him. And now they don't have home court. But I will say I'm not positive how much that matters for this particular warriors team because we've seen them stink at home and we've seen them win on the road.
- [37:36]
Ryan Rosillo
So the game 7 stuff is crazy too. Like NBA history. We grew up with that 80 plus percent chance of winning at home and now is it nine of the last 13 road teams have won. Yeah, it's absurd.
- [37:48]
Bill Simmons
You know who didn't win yesterday was the Clippers.
- [37:51]
Ryan Rosillo
Oh, wait, so. Yeah, it might be. It might be nine of the last 14.
- [37:55]
Bill Simmons
The Clippers tried to keep it old school the way you used to. Remember the game. Sevens.
- [37:59]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah.
- [37:59]
Bill Simmons
I appreciate Golden State, Minnesota. I think it's a really, really, really tall task for Gold State when you consider that Kaminga. Now I don't. Do we see Kaminga again? If it's not garbage time, I'm going to say no. He was so bad in that. Hey, not to defend Kaminga, but I think Kerr probably broke his confidence completely. And I don't know what they were expecting was going to happen if you're throwing him in. Moody's been up and down. Post has been up and down. Peyton, who missed the game today, which I forgot to mention, might have helped the warriors because Houston crafts this defense thinking we're just going to double step everywhere and they make these other guys beat us and then all of a Sudden Buddy Hield is in that Peyton spot, playing big minutes who can actually shoot. Maybe Peyton doesn't make a couple of those, but.
- [38:52]
Ryan Rosillo
I think you're right. I think you're right. Because, you know, I think that's why we didn't see Quentin Punk Post a lot. Because even though the idea of him is a stretch five to try to pull one of those bigs away, I think Houston was thrilled every time Quentin Post ended up taking a three in a playoff series or had the ball. All of these were high leverage moments. And when you factored in when he was at the rim for rim protection, you know, a man's like, this is. This is unbelievable. I think Post still doesn't know what a men did on him on that drive a couple games ago. So I think Peyton was probably one of those guys. The ball ended up in his hands a little bit too much. Post was one of those guys. So now they weren't really even options tonight. And by the way, I know that in the regular season series, Golden State has the 3:1 advantage. The last time they played double checking, it was January 15th. I feel like Minnesota closed as the healthiest version of themselves and was still just a weird team because three of the games were in December.
- [39:41]
Bill Simmons
Can I intervene with you once I got to stage an intervention? I don't think you can look at the regular season matchups anymore. I think it's a 95% chance. Nobody on both teams played in any of the games. I've just. I'm so. I feel like I want. I want the five hours of my life back where I've looked at different matchups. Like, oh, Halberd didn't play that game. Ah, no, Mitchell, that game. It's like there's. You're just learning nothing. It's not like it used to be. Even five years ago, you'll be like, oh, yeah, that February game when they all played, they won 138 to 130. There's never a game where everybody played anymore. Listen, we talked before the playoffs started about how Minnesota was a long shot that we didn't totally understand. Cause there was a path for them, right? Their path was beating the Lakers, getting home court in the round two against Golden State, and then just basically being toe to toe and unafraid against okc. I think Minnesota should win this series, and I think Golden State, I continue to think they're a guy and a half short. They're not even a guy short. They're like a guy and a half short. And you're going to need. You need eight guys against this Minnesota team because they're deep, they have different lineups, they have size, they can go small. You have the Edwards piece where he's just relentless on both ends. And I think Minnesota should be more of a favorite. I would have had this at minus 200. I think the warriors are getting a lot of respect in this. I think Minnesota is a good team.
- [41:09]
Ryan Rosillo
You know what's really funny is everyone from Minnesota has played in this.
- [41:13]
Bill Simmons
Has what?
- [41:14]
Ryan Rosillo
Played in the four regular season games.
- [41:17]
Bill Simmons
Is that true? You just looked that up.
- [41:20]
Ryan Rosillo
I knew it was going to happen because you're right. You're right.
- [41:23]
Bill Simmons
There it is. There's the 5%.
- [41:25]
Ryan Rosillo
But see, there's just a lot of times whether it's who played because Draymond missed a couple. So golden state has a 3:1 edge, but I don't know that you can look. And this is the thing I always struggle with every single year is. So you're watching Golden State and they have this great closing stretch. Okay. Houston felt like they competed throughout the entire year. So those felt real, like closing. Like a closing month. If you'll give me a month.
- [41:49]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [41:49]
Ryan Rosillo
The Clippers felt like a real closing month. Okay, well, does that mean that that was all misleading? Because Denver went into it as the worst defensive team in the playoffs. The Timberwolves closing the way they closed felt real. That's why I picked him. And also just because I felt like, how is no one picking them? Like, this isn't. This isn't that daunting to go up against Los Angeles and.
- [42:10]
Bill Simmons
Well, they did you know lebron was going to sprain his MCL near the end there?
- [42:14]
Ryan Rosillo
I didn't know that.
- [42:16]
Bill Simmons
Who knows that last seven minutes of that game five.
- [42:20]
Ryan Rosillo
This isn't even a LeBron thing.
- [42:21]
Bill Simmons
He had to sprain as a MCL.
- [42:24]
Ryan Rosillo
We're getting updates on injuries. We're like, hey, the normal time frame for this Michael Porter Jr. Shoulder thing would be four to five weeks. He looked great in game seven.
- [42:33]
Bill Simmons
This. You're right. This is a new year. Normally, he'd be out 10 days, but he's going to get through it.
- [42:39]
Ryan Rosillo
They did it with Derrick today. They did it with Austin Reeves. They did it with LeBron. So LeBron's not the only one we've got like a first team of. He would have been out.
- [42:48]
Bill Simmons
Can I. I'd like to raise my hand on this one.
- [42:50]
Ryan Rosillo
Please do.
- [42:51]
Bill Simmons
Everybody's hurt in the playoffs. Everybody has injuries, right? Like, the Celtics are starting their series tomorrow. Drew's going to play. He has a hamstring. They probably rest him two more weeks. Tatum hurt his wrist. If it's December, they're probably sitting him for two weeks. Jalen's got the knee like it's. It's May. I would expect people to get hurt. I'm sure Steph has, like two injuries that we probably don't even know about. Steph's all these guys are fucking banged up. Steph had that crazy thumb thing, right?
- [43:16]
Ryan Rosillo
It looks like footage from some sort of like, pharmaceutical ad during the commercials. Or you just go if you're experiencing growth on your right thigh.
- [43:25]
Bill Simmons
He got stung by a stingray in Cabo.
- [43:28]
Ryan Rosillo
Although I'm Chris Finch watching the tape of this series being like, are we also not going to get called for anything off the ball with Steph? Like this series, when they called the off ball on Shingoon Kerr, he may just run that on a loop and they'll have like a celebratory dinner and just be like, let's not get ahead of ourselves. It was only round one, but I think we should all get together as an organization. Cake and champagne. That there was actually a foul called on Steph at some point in the series because, you know, he. It was on. It's going to be one of the most disrespectful. Disrespectful. STAR whistles and I know the off the ball stuff is just never policed the same way. I just thought at some point the rest might be like, let's call one of these early to see if they.
- [44:07]
Bill Simmons
I didn't know you were allowed to bear hug somebody off the ball.
- [44:10]
Ryan Rosillo
There was one.
- [44:11]
Bill Simmons
It's happening now regularly with the. Or at least in that last series it did. They're just bear hugging him.
- [44:17]
Ryan Rosillo
If you're wrestling with your younger brother and he's just weaker than you, unless it sucks. And he's just Kyle Long and you're Chris Long, but you hold your brother's arms out and you're like, why are you, you know, not necessarily making him hit himself in the face, but you're just holding his arms and there's nothing he can do. And the wrist control and all this stuff. There was one play where Van Fleet had both of Steph's wrists right as he was trying to, like, get off of some sort of screen, they were setting off the ball and he was holding both of his arms.
- [44:43]
Bill Simmons
If you're. If you're defending somebody the same way, you would hold back one of your buddies from trying to Take a swing at the bouncer at 2 in the morning. That's probably a foul.
- [44:53]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I'm glad they won so that it doesn't sound like it's. It's making excuses. But they got away with.
- [44:59]
Bill Simmons
They were smart. They got away with what they wanted.
- [45:00]
Ryan Rosillo
To get away with if Minnesota can get away with that. But they also have one of the least respected stars Whistlewise and Ant. But it's for different reasons because Ant plays to avoid, doesn't play to contact like Luca plays to contact. Some of these guys are really smart like knowing that Brunson, hey, if I just play into the contact like it's going to go my way. Ant is so dynamic that he's avoiding everybody and everybody's just in awe of his athleticism. And I think a lot of the stuff with Steph is he's not going to get the foul calls because they're not just traditional drives towards the hoop. Granted if he's fouled on three point attempt, that's different. But the off the ball stuff with him in a playoff series and good for the defense for getting away with it. But it, when you really lock into it and watch it for a few possessions, you just go, dude, I can't believe somebody wouldn't want to retire. Like this is what, this is what I have to do.
- [45:50]
Bill Simmons
Or that why he's going to punch somebody. You know what's crazy? So you get Minnesota Golden State. That's a great series for the league, right? Curry versus Edwards. I think both of those teams are really fun to watch.
- [46:02]
Ryan Rosillo
I did not Steven Jenzo Pajemski.
- [46:05]
Bill Simmons
Right. I didn't think Houston was very fun to watch. Just for the record, not. Not bummed out to not get them for the next two weeks. I was pretty much done with Houston Rockets basketball games. No offense to their fans. Wasn't exactly a great hang. It's like, oh cool, it's 74, 72 with five minutes left. Minnesota Golden State is a great series and yet it's not even one of the two best series that we have left from like a big storyline basketball standpoint because that Indiana Cleveland series and we've been talking about Indiana for weeks now and the people just haven't been on it.
- [46:44]
Ryan Rosillo
No, you've been on it more. I know that I'm labeled as more dismissive, but today was tremendous. So go ahead.
- [46:49]
Bill Simmons
Well, that could. So Cleveland was minus 500 in the series. In the series. So you bet the Pacers. I have multiple Pacer bets. I did the Pacers plus two and a half for the games. That'll go like six or seven. I did Pacers and six was 10 to one. I bet them today. I was just like. Especially when no Garland, it's like this is. These teams are even. I looked up the last 50 games. Rossillo, Cleveland was 35 and 15 in the last 50 games and the Pacers were 34 and 16. And if you look at the net rating, the cavs were like 7.7 and the Pacers were like 5.1. I think they're pretty even teams. And you saw it today, like when the Pacers, when they can play the pace they want to play and they suck you into it and teams get sucked into it and they can't help it. And once we're doing this, they're like, they're happy they're in. They were getting the matchups they wanted. I think they can play with that team. Like, I wasn't surprised they won today. I think it's going to be a long series and I actually think it's probably the best basketball series of the four. Just for like, I don't know what's going to happen. The styles are great. It's the styles make fights. It's a great series. And I thought that first game was awesome.
- [48:01]
Ryan Rosillo
Today was awesome.
- [48:03]
Bill Simmons
That was an awesome basketball game.
- [48:05]
Ryan Rosillo
Okay, now I'm gonna, I'm not gonna you guys, you here, but there's something with the gambling world that I actually get annoyed with. Did you pick the Pacers to just win the series though?
- [48:16]
Bill Simmons
I. I mean, I bet them the win in six.
- [48:19]
Ryan Rosillo
But you, you bet them with the payout at 10 to 1.
- [48:22]
Bill Simmons
I thought that was the best value. If I had gun to my head, I would have probably said Cavs in seven.
- [48:28]
Ryan Rosillo
Right.
- [48:29]
Bill Simmons
If I had to pick is. But do I come in in seven? Sure. I just feel like it's a 50, 50 series is my point. It's not a minus 500 favorite series.
- [48:39]
Ryan Rosillo
Right. But what happens if you pick the upset but you put a ticket on a 5 to 1 payout or a 10 to 1 payout then I've noticed. I don't know if it's you, but guys that I follow that are really into gambling would be like, well, you know, I picked them and it's like, no, you picked the odds. You picked the value fair. You didn't pick straight.
- [48:56]
Bill Simmons
Here's where, here's where I took a loss. I picked the Clippers against Denver and I had Clipper stuff multiple places and I know we're going to Talk about that in a second. But that was one where I was like, I think the Clippers will win this series. This Pacers, Pacers, Cavs is more. I think either team can win this series. And I think it's a 50, 50 series. I felt that going in. And now that they won game one, it hasn't changed. I don't think it's 60, 40 now. I just think either team can win. And the Garland thing is a big deal because they needed his three point shooting. You can see it today. I think they were like 8 for 39 from 3. It was a lot of tide. Jerome tied Jerome 20 minutes. Fantastic. 30 minutes. Now we're pushing it a tiny bit.
- [49:41]
Ryan Rosillo
We were talking about what's real right as teams close out. After the All Star break before. Let me just do it this way. Before the All Star break, The Pacers are 21st in defense in the NBA. After the All Star break, they were 8th. So the thing about them that always bothered me against another talented team was you're just going to be able to score against them whenever you want to. And last year's playoff run, that was still true. There were injuries against teams they faced. We've covered all of this stuff, but if you want to look at a team where you go, hey, something's a little different there now, I don't know if the Cleveland closing numbers for that team are as relevant because they were at such a ridiculous pace through so much of the season. They knew they weren't going to lose the one seed. I felt like a lot of the Cleveland games I watched, like, I don't know, maybe they're, they're still too new to feel like they're taking the foot off the gas. But it felt like that might have been a misleading closing part of it. But that Pacers defensive thing is real. And I wondered also too, like in the series against Milwaukee, I'm like, Carlisle is really going to play 10 or 11 guys. I think he put Ben Shepard in a game as the 11th guy in the first quarter of a playoff game.
- [50:41]
Bill Simmons
That's my all time pet peeve.
- [50:43]
Ryan Rosillo
Who does that? And yet he played a ton of guys again today. So there's a lot of stuff that I really like from the Pacers today. And the Garland part of it's totally true because as much as we both love Ty Jerome, he can't be taking 20 shots in a playoff game in 29 minutes.
- [51:00]
Bill Simmons
And also some of them are rough. It hurts the calibration of the team too, because now you don't have him coming off the bench in the same way to swing a game because he's just out there playing most of the game. I will say this, if Garland's not going to be 100% healthy in this series, I actually think Indiana is going to win. But it seems like that injury, like whatever, they're being careful with it and it seems like he's going to be able to play with it, not be completely compromised.
- [51:24]
Ryan Rosillo
But you could argue three point variance in this one too. 19 to 36 Pacers 9 of 38 for the Cavs the alarming part about the film, if you were going to go back and watch this, the Pacers shots were open the majority of this game and part of that's Halliburton's brilliance. Like I know people, he's a funny one too because it's like man, when he is really rolling, do you realize how special he is at breaking the paint, getting past the first defender, then the help defender thinks that maybe he's giving up on his drive and then it's too late and he's already by you. But people are collapsing. He's finding open shooters all over the place. I think he could have attacked even more if he wanted to today.
- [52:03]
Bill Simmons
And I by the way he had 22 and 13 and I think he leads the league for me. And when I watch a Pacers game I'm always like just go buy him, just go buy him. You find your yourself saying that with him constantly, just go buy him. You know you can a lot of.
- [52:18]
Ryan Rosillo
Open looks because you could tell when Cleveland cranked up its intensity and Atkinson did the in game interview, he was almost sitting there like a fan going this is awesome, isn't it? But he also felt better because Mitchell was just driving at will, which I think there's going to be a lot of that in there. Like Miles Turner being pulled away is a problem. They don't have any depth behind that against the two bigs for Cleveland. Although Atkinson did separate those guys the way he normally would. But I was really, really impressed with the Pacers and I I don't know if it's just the three point shooting. I don't know if it's that even though the Pacers are better than Milwaukee, this might have been a wake up call for the Cavs. Like that Heat series was as bad as garbage a series as you're ever going to see in the playoffs. Do you know that was your highest point differential ever in a four game sweep?
- [53:04]
Bill Simmons
Really?
- [53:05]
Ryan Rosillo
That was the biggest point differential Four game sweep in NBA history. That's how disgusting that first round series was against Miami. So you've got to wonder if Cleveland had a moment where like, holy shit.
- [53:16]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. But you know what, though? We both watched the whole game. I thought Cleveland played hard. The Pacers came out. I've seen them do that where they, it, it. They just put you on your heels. They turn to and track me and you get excited. Cause it's the first game of the series, like, all right, let's run, let's go. And it's like, that's what exactly what they want you to do. Cavs tried to, started slowing it down. Mitchell took over. And if you're the Cavs, I think you would take solace watching the tape. The Pacers made some dumb shots. Like, what was that one? Nemhardt, he made like a 29 footer at one point, then he made another one, then Toppen made a couple. And it was just like every time they needed a dumb shot to go and it did. But I thought Halberton was the. I thought he controlled the game offensively, especially some of the transition stuff, which I think if you're Cleveland, when you, you have guys out there like, you know, Wade and what's in Streuss, like, I, I thought athletically they were kind of trying to make the Cavs pay for. Are you going to put those shooters out? We're going to go, go, go on you. And the other thing that was interesting to me was Halliburton attacking Allen, you know, who I think is a really good defensive center, but he was like, come on out here, let me do my yo yo thing with you. And. And he got him a few times.
- [54:31]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, that one I watched where I think the league's like letting guys change their pivot foot a little bit more than I ever remember. When you go.
- [54:37]
Bill Simmons
When you take the five steps backwards.
- [54:39]
Ryan Rosillo
To shoot the three, the, the backwards travel thing, I've never. And I guess it's legal, but I don't understand how that evolved into something. But look, everybody does it, so I'm not even making it specific to anyone, but Halliburton got Allen on one. Yeah, he got Allen on one of those. And then the drive where he like delayed it mid drive and then went. That was straight. That was two steps. That wasn't even like an NBA two and a half or whatever. That was like a real drive. And it reminded me a bit of when the Celtics. I can't believe you're not doing this. And I'm doing It. But Tatum. I think the Celtics preferred Allen against Tatum in a switch because they like Tatum. Look, it's just a lot to ask any seven foot guy, even as great defensively as some of these dudes are, to hold up. That's what made Garnet so special, is it's just like, oh, you're gonna switch into me? Like, what are you nuts? But Tatum likes that matchup because it's also pulling Allen away and everything else. And I'm with you. I thought Halliburton was in complete control every time he had the ball to the point where it's like, I think you guys could actually do this more. But the balance was so incredible from six guys tonight, including all the starters. It was. I. I thought it was just off the charts impressive because then you blow the lead. Mitchell's going nuts. Although he can't hit any threes. That place is on fire. Like, the announcers are basically saying, hey, man. Like, Greg Anthony's like, I think this is the loudest building I've ever been in for a playoff game.
- [56:00]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [56:00]
Ryan Rosillo
Set up Greg to be on the road and blow. Well, not blow the. But you just expected the Cavs are going to have some kind of fight in them and then still respond and close it out. As impressive as a win as like, I'm not going to say today, but I think it's just up there with anything else we've seen. Yeah. For this.
- [56:17]
Bill Simmons
That move Mitchell has where he drives right at the guy and he does the high dribble and he carries the ball by his head and then rips it forward and comes in, and I was like, where have I seen that before? And I thought about it for like an hour. It's Dwyane Wade's move. That was the old Dwayne Wade. Is that. Are those the only two guys that had that? I'm trying to think, did Kobe have that?
- [56:38]
Ryan Rosillo
I feel like Kobe had everything. He spent.
- [56:40]
Bill Simmons
Kobe do that one. That high, bringing the ball up high, and then you're almost like driving the ball down into the guy and then bouncing off.
- [56:47]
Ryan Rosillo
And J.R. ryder, maybe.
- [56:50]
Bill Simmons
No, Isaiah Rider changed his name.
- [56:53]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I know.
- [56:55]
Bill Simmons
Mitchell was great. You know what I loved about Mitchell in that game? It was the same reason why I felt like he had to be a top five MVP thing. Like, he could feel what was happening. And he's like, I got this. I got this. And he really legitimately took over the game and swung it for a couple minutes. It was 868.
- [57:13]
Ryan Rosillo
It was 80, 68. And he drove six straight possessions. Just drove.
- [57:17]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [57:17]
Ryan Rosillo
And with him, you know, he's probably as good as anybody is splitting the two defenders, which is, you know, when Kobe, I think Kobe's probably the best I've ever seen at it. Wade always wanted to reject the screen a little bit more than you expect. But with Mitchell, you don't even necessarily need like sometimes you just screen to try to get people moving around and figure out where the help's going to be. All this stuff, it's not as. As much as it is hunting the big all the time. But Mitchell, he can beat the guy off the dribble and then he can beat the help defender. He can split a double. He can, you know, he can do anything that you really ask of him there. But if he is not going to hit his threes, you know, I mean, you don't expect him to shoot that poorly.
- [57:57]
Bill Simmons
One for 11. Yeah. If I'm Indiana, I'm psyched because I almost feel like you have to win game one on the road if you're going to win a seven game series where you don't have the home court like you otherwise now you're looking at you have to win four out of six and it's just the math becomes too hard. It always seems like winning that game one is huge. I think they know they can win there and I continue to think that's as good of a team as anyone in the East. Boston obviously has a higher ceiling. Cleveland has the pedigree from the season and probably have the best player. I would say Mitchell slight edge over Halberton, but I think Indiana can play with both those teams. I was talking to my dad today. My dad's like, who would you want to play in round three if we get by the Knicks out of these two? And I was like, we want to play Indiana because we'd have home court. He's like, yeah, good point. But man, they're scary. And both of those teams have played the Celtics really well and know that they can hang with them and potentially beat them, you know. And for the Celtics, health is going to be the biggest enemy for them these next two rounds. Whether they can on a back to back season, try to keep everybody upright and playing big minutes. But I think all those teams are really good. I think Indiana, if Indiana made the finals, I wouldn't be shocked.
- [59:11]
Ryan Rosillo
I would be a little surprised.
- [59:13]
Bill Simmons
I'd be shocked if Golden State made it with how limited their roster is. Like if they actually put together two more rounds, that would be like playing quinton post and coming, hoping Moses Moody's making threes and like, that would be shocking. I would not think about Indiana like Carlisle.
- [59:31]
Ryan Rosillo
Even though he plays a ton of guys, he knows what he's going to do over the course of a game, and then he can kind of figure out how he wants to close. Kerr doesn't know who he's going to close fourth quarters with this late into the season.
- [59:41]
Bill Simmons
Moses Moody can't make a shot today. Cross him off game 89.
- [59:46]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, he's turning around, going.
- [59:48]
Bill Simmons
It's like, do we have anybody else? Is Andre going all over the. I don't know. He's not on our team anymore. You know, the other thing with Indiana that I think is interesting, everybody they bring in, I like.
- [59:59]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, you like Jerus Walker?
- [60:01]
Bill Simmons
I even like him. Yeah, but like toppin. But when toppins open in the corner, do you think the shots going in in a fourth quarter?
- [60:09]
Ryan Rosillo
Because I think it's going in after that Minnesota run. Yeah.
- [60:11]
Bill Simmons
When T.J. mcConnell's driving to the basket, I'm like, I think he's going to score. I think they're a good team. Continue. I. I thought they were the best value for all the bets before the playoffs because they were like, you have no hesitation then.
- [60:24]
Ryan Rosillo
I mean, Thomas Bryant's out there, right? They're playing Obi Toppin at the five against the Cleveland options that they have.
- [60:31]
Bill Simmons
Five minutes for Thomas. But I'm like, I just think Carlisle was showing off at that point. He's like, you don't think I could play 11? Watch this.
- [60:45]
Ryan Rosillo
Doesn't that mean. Doesn't. Isn't Thomas usually the 12th guy?
- [60:51]
Bill Simmons
I'll tell you this. If Garland's not healthy, I think Indiana wins the series. And if Garland ends up being healthy, I still think they could win it. I think it goes six or seven. I thought that was a great bet. That was one of my favorite bets. The Indiana plus two and a half. Let's take one more break for the podcast. Then we got to talk Clippers. This episode is brought to you by Vrbo Private Vacation Rentals. With Vrbo, you can save over $200 on select homes when you stay for a week or more. Say you wanted to go catch a few baseball games in Boston. Take some time off work, fly into Beantown, watch the Sox play. After that, you can do anything. Go book a VRBO in Cape Cod for a week. The world is your oyster or lobster roll or clam chowder, really. If it has shells, gills, and is indigenous to the Atlantic, it's Your edible metaphor of choice. They're crustacean crazy down there. And guess what? Since you stayed longer than a week, you saved over $200. You know what that means? More shellfish. I love shellfish. Hope you're not allergic. Next vacation. Stay longer and save. Make it a vrbo this episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. Every basketball team that's still alive in the playoffs has one thing in common. Their key trades and signings throughout the season paid off, giving each team the talent needed to make a run at the championship. With a small business. Your success directly depends on the new talent you add to your team. And a great place to find that talent is LinkedIn. They know hiring is a big deal for small businesses. Not only because small businesses are wearing so many hats, but also because every hire is crucial for a growing company. That's why LinkedIn pairs you with the best candidates, using data you won't find anywhere else. From unique skills and interests to the connections you have in common, LinkedIn also lets you go beyond candidates who are actively applying in a given week. 171 million LinkedIn members aren't actively be seeking jobs, but they are open to new opportunities. That's a big pool to miss out on. So find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com Simmons that's LinkedIn.com Simmons to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by McDonald's. All new McCrispy strips. New McCrispy strips are here. Chicken made for dipping. Tender, juicy white meat Chicken with the golden brown peppery breading. This sounds delicious. It's chicken. So good it deserves its own sauce. That's right, the Creamy Chili McCrispy Strip Dip. It's creamy, savory and sweet with a little heat. But strips work with any of their sauces. I'm actually still a big fan of the buffalo sauce look. New McCrispy strips and dip sounds fantastic. And it's only at McDonald's Clippers. So big picture. I think this is the rare series that was decided in game four. You see this sometimes. Where? Sometimes the games. I know it's weird to be like game seven. Anyone can win. And the line certainly reflected it. The line was even then it was minus one. Then it ended at Nuggets minus one and a half. Which I asked FanDuel, like, have we had a game seven line that low and we really haven't. Like, they're usually like three and up for a Game seven, so even Vegas was like, we don't know. But I think Game four, which we talked about a week ago, the one I went to at the, at the intuit, and the way the Nuggets played in that game, the desperation they had where Jokic, Gordon, Murray, where all of them were like, we have to win this. And they end up, they went it on this crazy alley oops. But the desperation they showed in that game versus the desperation or lack of desperation the Clippers had yesterday was pretty telling. And I don't know what happened. I don't know whether Clippers wore out. It's an older team, maybe playing on Thursday, maybe the Denver altitude, maybe they kind of deep down knew they missed their shot in the series. But that third quarter, which I asked to rewatch this morning, the first five minutes of the third, third quarter for the Clippers was one of the most putrid, embarrassing displays of basketball on both ends I can remember. Cause it was an eight point game. Kawhi hit a three and then for the next four minutes they just took a complete shit on both ends and there's 20 mistakes. It's just awful. And that was it. That was their season over in four minutes. Basically. It was really bad. And I don't know what they do now.
- [65:19]
Ryan Rosillo
I thought the Clippers are going to win the series. You know, back to that closing part of. It's like you realize how bad Denver is defensively. I didn't like their defensive options and I think we're going to see those exploited again on the perimeter against the OKC team that has its shit together. Certainly more so than the Clippers do. You know, I watched the third quarter again this morning because you asked me to. And you're like, what happened to you guys? Like, I, I know they were kind of like trying to figure out how to like the done parts that were good defensively. Clearly he was the guy that was getting exposed as they ignored him offensively. Yeah, I think ZOO is a great story this year. I thought Jokic fought him way better in Game 7 than maybe you'd expect. There's some really good Jokic numbers as far as like defensively, what the averages would be for the Clippers at the rim against everybody.
- [66:12]
Bill Simmons
And so, you know, that's always, that's.
- [66:14]
Ryan Rosillo
The thing with him is he's at least positioned better. And it was funny because, you know, he was just so bad defensively in that first half of the game. They ended up winning. But I don't, I have a lot on Harden if you want to do it. I Just don't know that any. Like, I have stuff specific to the third quarter, but it's just crazy to see the cycle of the Harden conversation happen all over again. It's like, who's even. What is the debate anymore? Like, at this point I actually have sympathy because clearly.
- [66:42]
Bill Simmons
But he had assists in the first half, which kind of 10, which kind of shielded some of the stuff that he did that fucked him over in that first half. Like just not running back on defense, being lazy, you know, in a bunch of different ways with specific plays. And then in the third quarter he's like, I'm taking it up two notches. And he was so bad for five minutes he played.
- [67:04]
Ryan Rosillo
So I went through it and I was really focusing on him. You knew it was bad. Like you can just tell if you've watched it enough, you can tell, you can see it and go, oh, this is a problem. His first technical shot, his first actual shot of the game was about 55 seconds left to go in the first quarter. He had gotten free throws on that bullshit arm hook thing that he does. At about the two minute mark, he had let Watson get behind him after a make. Like you didn't. There was no one else in the area other than just, I'll let a super athletic guy just kind of get behind me because whatever. He played the entire 12 minutes. I counted the number of times he actually got inside the three point line. And I'm not talking like a foot over the line. I'm talking like got into the, got into the offense of all of their possessions. In the third quarter, he stepped inside the three point line three times. One was an atrocious lob attempt. There was another play where he was on the right side and there was another one where he played for free throws on a foul. He was hoping to get fouled on this layup going back against Jamal Murray and he lost it. So. All right, he doesn't want to shoot, fine. He doesn't want to move, fine. I mean, he's standing by the platform.
- [68:15]
Bill Simmons
And they're killing him on defense, right?
- [68:17]
Ryan Rosillo
He's standing on the Ball arena logo, which is like by the coach's box. And he, he just can't. There's one play where Kawhi gets totally shut off in the paint. He's like at the free throw line. He's at the paint. Denver scrambling on defense and he looks to Harden and all Harden had to do was take two steps just to get there as a possible option to catch at the three point line. And Harden Couldn't even move in from the five feet there. There's something that happens with him where his regular season brain and his approach to dissecting everything. There is a speed difference. There's a process, because obviously he. Look, Austin Rivers was just on with me last week, saying he's one of the three smartest players he's ever played with. And I'll give it to him because you see the moments where he's diagnosing everything that's going to happen and how the help and which matchup makes more sense. But there is something that happens to him when he is in these high leverage moments that he's just clearly uncomfortable. So it's like, okay, you don't want to shoot, you don't want to move. Can you at least be positioned somewhere? The Aaron Gordon Tippen, he just lets him just step right in front of him.
- [69:18]
Bill Simmons
Stop boxing out, dudes. It's not. Yeah, it's not just basketball. It's. It's the same fight we just watched from the Warriors. You watch and you go, where's the fight? This is game seven. You're going home. If you lose this game, you realize that, right? And you just don't see it. You saw it in game six. Game six, he came out, he was aggressive, he was attacking, and it was like, oh, this guy really cares if they win today. Game 7, it didn't seem like he cared.
- [69:41]
Ryan Rosillo
That Sixer series against the Celtics a few years ago, he saved their ass a couple of those games early on. And is somebody who's been well positioned on this. Like, I remember being on SportsCenter 10 years ago going, yeah, something's wrong here. And, you know, people were like, oh, he had a concussion. It was like that spurs series, remember?
- [69:57]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [69:57]
Ryan Rosillo
And you're just like, what, you think he has a concussion? So that's. That's what happened. And it's like, okay, what about this year? What about this year? What about the warriors series? What about the 18 closeout game? What about the 19 closeout? Like, it just goes on and on and on. And I don't. I don't know why it keeps happening, but it's like, okay, so you don't want to shoot. Like, whatever it is, you're not comfortable. At least do something else. And I think it's a really good lesson in the first half tonight of where Steph is struggling and nothing is easy and he can't get an open look. And it's like, okay, but there's still a bunch of other ways I can.
- [70:29]
Bill Simmons
He'S rebounding, he's playing defense, he's scrapping. He's trying to create stuff. Well, is that so? Our friend Zach Lowe, when he wrote his hardened playoff piece that was heading into round two of the Lakers series.
- [70:43]
Ryan Rosillo
In 2020 when they won game one.
- [70:48]
Bill Simmons
And he had, in that piece, he had in 15 games, facing elimination since 2013, hard at 90 assists, 79 turnovers, 40% field goal. The crunch time stuff was really bad. 38%, 9 for 50 on threes and crunch time during that stretch. Right.
- [71:08]
Ryan Rosillo
Damn.
- [71:09]
Bill Simmons
Well, since then, 20. That's six more playoff exits. These were his elimination game totals. He had 30 points in the Lakers, one that they lost, six turnovers, 22 and 21. He had 11 in the closeout in 22, nine in 23, 16 and 24 and seven in this game. But the total shots, he averaged 16 a game, 9.3 assists, 31 for 81 field goals and nine for 42, three points. So one thing that definitely happens is he can't make threes in these big games. But then if you go further, this is just statistically one of the best offensive players of all time. I looked at how many guys have averaged 24 points a game just for their career who have played a thousand games or more. And it's 11. It's Jordan Wilt, Durant, LeBron James, Oscar, Karl Malone, Kobe, Dominique, Steph Curry, Kareem and James Harden. That's why we talk about this, because that's how good the stats are. You go to the playoffs and there's only 16 guys who have played at least 140 games and average 22 a game or more. And they're all guys who won titles. Jordan, Durant, West, LeBron Curry, Hakeem, Kobe, Dirk. Malone's the first one who didn't. Kareem Shaq, Larry Wilt, Harden, Wade Havlicek. So he statistically resides in this area with all these great guys who have all won titles, and yet his legacy is over and over again. The worst possible things happen at the worst time for him. And we could talk about legacy and whether it actually matters, because I think what we've Learned the last 10 years is sometimes the legacy stuff doesn't matter as much, and people choose to remember or forget what they want. But Zach was saying four or five years ago that this was the Karl Malone of guards, and it's worse now than it was when we were talking about it a few years ago. And this is it. What is he, 35, 36? He's been in the league 16 years. It's not going to get better. This is just a legacy. And the Clippers, you combine that with the Clippers and it's unbeatable.
- [73:28]
Ryan Rosillo
I wasn't even, you know, the reason it used to get me more passionate was because what he was doing in the regular season, people were like, you know, putting these numbers up there, going like, look at this. I mean, top five MVP finish or top three MVP finishes, like five straight years, maybe it was top four finishes. And so when you look at those stretches, you start going like, okay, where's this guy going to end up? And without the ring, we're pretty resistant to let you hang out at that top tier neighborhood, make the Finals. Yeah, look, I think the other thing that we learned through those years too was that that's where the usage part of it comes in, is if an entire season is dedicated to you having the ball every single minute to, like, absurd historic levels, and you're putting up all these points, like, that's cool, but.
- [74:18]
Bill Simmons
And you're playing a different team every game versus the same team seven times in a row.
- [74:22]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. Is that going to translate? Is that going to be the best thing? I mean, again, I don't mean to bring up the Westbrook stuff because, you know, he was great. He was great in the elimination game. Tons of energy, good for him. But there was this regular season thing that was happening, those OKC games that once again in the playoffs, like, oh, so now we don't just stand around and wait for him to do something. Because Westbrook had such an advantage because of how athletic he was. And Harden had this statistical advantage because he was going to make threes. He's terrific if you send help, he's terrific on the lobs. He lives at the free throw line. So, like, those prime years for him would give him the profile of somebody really, really special. And I figured at some point he would probably just have a great elimination game because he was fucking due. This is over a decade, man.
- [75:15]
Bill Simmons
Like that spurs series, that was the point of Zach's column in 2020. He's like, why haven't we had our James Harden playoff moment yet? And we've had six playoffs since he wrote that column. I'm mailing you, I'm texting you. Check your text.
- [75:31]
Ryan Rosillo
Because even when they beat okc in 20 before they lost the Lakers in five, he was 4:15, one of nine from three.
- [75:40]
Bill Simmons
I just texted you what I'm about to run through. This is the James Harden. This is the levels of the Bad James Harden closeout games. I'm going to rank them. James Harden close out terrible games. Ranked 2017, game six Spurs, I think was the worst one ever.
- [75:57]
Ryan Rosillo
This was the one with 2 for 11, right?
- [75:59]
Bill Simmons
They lost by 39 at home, 2 for 11. He was 1 for 2 in the first half, field goal wise as San Antonio went up by 18. And by the way, Kawhi Leonard did not play, did not play in the game. Cause he was hurt. The next One is the 2023. Game six, game seven, the Boston combo where they blew game six, lost by nine. He was four for 16, zero for six from three, five turnovers, one for six in the second half. They lost game seven by 24. He was three for 11 in that game with five turnovers.
- [76:32]
Ryan Rosillo
And you could see from the first drive where he had to make a decision with the ball, you're like, oh, he.
- [76:36]
Bill Simmons
I don't think he kind of know right away.
- [76:38]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. And this is a series where he had 45 in game one and won the overtime game.
- [76:43]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [76:43]
Ryan Rosillo
He was awesome. When Embiid wasn't even. I think it missed one of those games, right?
- [76:48]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Next one, 2015, game five, warriors, round three, conference finals. They lost by 14. It was two for 11 with 12 turnovers. They were down six at halftime. He was over five in the second half. So you have that. I put this is a game they won, but 2015, game six, Clippers, round two, which they ended up winning by 12. He was 5 for 20 in the game. Bench for the comeback.
- [77:12]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, the bench for the comeback is one of the all time.
- [77:14]
Bill Simmons
They had a four. They Houston's 40 and 15. They won that 40 to 50. And they won the fourth quarter harder. Never played. He was one for seven in that game. The game seven this year, two frayed field goals, seven points. Denver goes plus 16 the third quarter. He's over two field goals in that game. And then there's other ones. There's 22, game six, Miami. They lose by nine. He's over two in the second half. Field goals last year, game six, Dallas, round one. They lose by 13. He's 0 for 6 from 3, 5 for 16. It goes on and on. The point is there's not a lot of good ones and there's not even a lot of decent ones and there's no great one. And in fact, probably the most honorable one he has was that year when they played the Bucks when he had the hammy and they lost an OT and he was 5 for 17, but he had 22 points. He got to the line, he had nine assists. Remember, he was playing on one leg. That's probably the most admiration I've had from one of these games. But look, people are going to remember what they want to remember, but I'm going to remember that this is a guy that you're just like, I'm so mad I didn't bet on Denver in Game seven. When you think of the Clippers piece, combined with the fact that the Clippers needed Harden to really come through in a big game, he's just never done it.
- [78:31]
Ryan Rosillo
But see, that's so crazy is all of these other games, for the most part. I mean, granted, you can argue Embiid's importance in the 23 series. The funniest thing, too, is because I'm looking through the game log, too. When they swept Brooklyn.
- [78:41]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [78:42]
Ryan Rosillo
In the game for closeout, he was 4:18 in 40 minutes.
- [78:46]
Bill Simmons
He was right.
- [78:49]
Ryan Rosillo
You know, and like, they didn't. They didn't need him, obviously, because they swept that Nets team. But I at least felt with this one, because I knew and I had said it. I'm like to pick. And it wasn't like I was picking Harden against Jokic, because really, it's about Kawhi and it's about Zubots and it's about the team. It's about how. How great they had been defensively. And it felt like they had really figured some of this stuff out. I'm not. I don't even know who was left to argue with. I mean, you could find somebody. Over the years, there was always people from Houston arguing about this stuff all the time. You're just like, all right, cool, man. Like, whatever.
- [79:21]
Bill Simmons
Like, the argument was what he did in Game six. He was really, really good in Game six. Right.
- [79:26]
Ryan Rosillo
That was game six of Wall three.
- [79:27]
Bill Simmons
Days ago, the Denver series that went Thursday night. He was really good in that game. So the argument would be like, hey, he was really good in game six. Couldn't it happen again? And the answer was, it can't.
- [79:37]
Ryan Rosillo
Okay? And I think to be fair to Harden, you gotta admit that they unloaded the clip in Game six. And then to turn around.
- [79:45]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, he's an older player. He's playing in altitude. I get it.
- [79:48]
Ryan Rosillo
I would not lead my show with this today, because if he were 30 and he were the number one option in getting MVP votes, then I would be like, I was a few years ago. But I'm. I'm pointing to the stuff that's frustrating because it's like, all right, if you don't have the offensive part of it doesn't mean you don't have to do any of the other stuff. You just decide, I'm going to stop moving. But I'm again, like I said, I'm more sympathetic this time around because he's not the number one option. He's not in the MVP conversation. I mean, he might make all NBA.
- [80:14]
Bill Simmons
But they really, they really needed him though.
- [80:16]
Ryan Rosillo
They needed something, they needed him.
- [80:18]
Bill Simmons
A catalyst.
- [80:19]
Ryan Rosillo
If he was spent, he's played this game long enough. He needed to figure out a way to be like, okay, I'm going to, I'm like, dude, it looks like he's saving himself the entire time he's out there. But be calculated about what your team needs from somebody who's been in this many playoff games. And you know you're going to wonder if Ty Lue is watching this going, do we need him out there for all 12 minutes?
- [80:40]
Bill Simmons
Was he going to put in Corey Brewer, Josh Smith, Amir Coffee is playing Corey Brewer. Maybe Ben Simmons is Josh Smith. Oh my God, he just hit a three.
- [80:55]
Ryan Rosillo
Look, it's pronounced Smith.
- [80:57]
Bill Simmons
Harden's been in the league 16 years and it's a lot to ask for him to outplay Jokic in a game seven, but it leads to a pretty good what do you do conversation if you're the Clippers because okay, real quick though. You couldn't get through round one, go ahead.
- [81:16]
Ryan Rosillo
I have to pretend. But Pop, Pop Simmons, you've got your compound. Who knows, maybe Montana for you. And the grandkids come to visit and they go, pop, Pop, tell us about James, tell us about James Harden. What are you going to say to your grand.
- [81:43]
Bill Simmons
Good question.
- [81:44]
Ryan Rosillo
Do it. A grandfatherly voice if you could.
- [81:47]
Bill Simmons
One of the best left handed players I've ever seen.
- [81:51]
Ryan Rosillo
Good start.
- [81:55]
Bill Simmons
Recreated offensive basketball in a couple different ways. Was one of the best two guards of the first 25 years of the 21st century. Put up huge stats and his teams were always good and something would happen to him in playoff series that none of us could really fully understand. And by the way, the same thing was could be said about Karl Malone, but at least Karl Malone made the finals twice as the best guy in a finals team. Did I think he was going to come through in those games? I did not. But at least he was able to get that far and he won some big playoff series, you know, and Harden, you know, Zach wrote that piece six years ago. What's the James Harden playoff moment? We still don't have it. It's, you know, I was thinking about this stuff because I was thinking about in the context of Carmelo. Right. Cause I think Carmelo has had a nice little resurgence post career. And he, I think there's. He's, I think a popular X star. Right. And I think people remember his Knicks era really fondly. He won one playoff series with the Knicks.
- [82:58]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah.
- [82:59]
Bill Simmons
If you go through Carmelo in the playoffs, he starts out with five straight first round exits. And you know, I'm a Carmelo fan. I was the one who wrote the Carmelo column about how I felt like he had a chance to be on that level and he was just bad luck with his teams.
- [83:12]
Ryan Rosillo
My homepage.
- [83:13]
Bill Simmons
Five star, five straight first round exits. He lost 18 of his first 21 playoff games in the 2009 playoffs. They won two rounds, lost LA in six. They lost the first round the next year to Utah. His career record in in Denver, playoff record, 2 for 7 in playoff series 15 and 28. Career record goes to the Knicks. Three years, 1 for 3 in playoff series 7 and 14 is his record. Averaged 28 a game, then missed the playoffs the next four years. And now Brunson is hot this year and people are like, who's better? Who's the greatest Knick ever, him or Carmelo? Because people can't remember anything. So that bringing my point back to James Harden, maybe people won't remember ten years from now. They'll be like, oh yeah, the beard, he was awesome. They're not going to remember any of this stuff because they certainly don't remember any of it. With Carmelo.
- [84:03]
Ryan Rosillo
I'm pushing back on this. I agree with Carmelo, I think he's incredibly likable guy. But Carmelo doesn't have the failures at the highest moments. Like this is like not making fun of the Broncos before Elway, but I'm just saying continue to make fun of the Bills.
- [84:14]
Bill Simmons
Really have any success as like from a playoff standpoint as a player. But I think now as the years pass, people feel like he was like that LeBron Wade level in some ways. My point is if you actually go through it, it's pretty grim.
- [84:29]
Ryan Rosillo
But I think you're missing my point is that failing consistently with this many eyes on you later, Los warriors fails. Everybody missing threes. I mean even though he had 30 in the closeout game at 18, 2.
- [84:40]
Bill Simmons
For 10 from 3.
- [84:42]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. I don't know that you felt great about him necessarily in that game.
- [84:44]
Bill Simmons
I feel 100 times worse about Harden. I'm just saying I just wonder with legacy. Sometimes when people are like, legacy, legacy Legacy, Legacy. We don't even do a good job of remembering what legacies were or what happened in somebody's career. I think Kamar had a lot of bad luck teammates. He pushed his way to the Knicks and they traded all these guys back to Denver. But for the most part, for what his talent was, to never. To never make a Finals, to be in one round, three. Like, it's kind of disappointing in retrospect because I thought he was one of the best guys of that generation and he's the one that nothing really happened.
- [85:19]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. If you go through the Carmelo thing, because I used to argue with Knicks fans that like, turned on him big time. Like, they ended up really turning on him. I think it's that Pacer series, you know, speaking of the Pacers again. But if you go through all of Carmelo's playoff exits and I promise, like, it's. I don't know how many people would actually do it. More often than not the team they were going up against, you weren't going to pick that. Carmelo's team to beat that team. I think there's a Jazz series in there maybe, or the records were pretty. Even a Clipper series.
- [85:48]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Yeah. Well, he was. He won three playoff series in his career and is 22 for 42 in the playoffs. But that's the thing. I think as the years pass, people remember what they want to remember and the Twitter videos and the social media stuff becomes as big a part of somebody's legacy as. As anything else. And I think James will probably be okay, big picture because the stats are going to have him look at Karl Malone. You and I were there for the Karl Malone era, and now the years pass and people are like, yeah, Karl Malone's stats, holy shit. Wow. Made the Finals twice. It's like, all right, well, you wouldn't want to throw in the ball with 18 seconds left.
- [86:28]
Ryan Rosillo
Just wouldn't have game four, maybe with Harden, because that's what I like to remember about Jim. Well, 115, 113. Sixers need it. Harden three pointer wins it in overtime. I think he ended up above 42 in that game.
- [86:49]
Bill Simmons
Big game, Jimmy. Well, big picture, what do you do if you're the Clippers? What do you do?
- [86:54]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, Kawhis have played.
- [86:56]
Bill Simmons
Harden has got a $36 million player option. They have Powell and Bogdanovic and Eubanks and Batum for 46 million expiring next year. They could put contracts together. They don't really have any picks to move. They could put together some contracts and take somebody else's high salary problem or somebody who's a little expensive that maybe somebody wants to dump because they're tanking. But do we run back this team and be like, hey, we lost to the best offensive player since Jordan basically in round one and seven? Let's not overreact. Or do you overreact?
- [87:32]
Ryan Rosillo
Are they going to have the option to overreact? And I would say this is just the headline to all of this off season stuff that I want to get into with you that I know you're excited about. But just in general, when you look at the free agent list, it's terrible.
- [87:45]
Bill Simmons
Okay, well, it's more the player acquisition list. It's the.
- [87:50]
Ryan Rosillo
Sure.
- [87:50]
Bill Simmons
Can you talk yourself into Zion? Can you talk yourself into Trey Young? There's eight of those guys.
- [87:56]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I think bonus.
- [87:57]
Bill Simmons
What's he. What's he up to?
- [88:00]
Ryan Rosillo
You're right. That's the exciting part of it. There's a really exciting version of this summer for the NBA. But more often than not, like, history tells us it's not just all of a sudden, every GM's like, let's just get wild with this and start changing our dudes and we'll just keep running back. So the fact that you have Kawhi under contract for two more years at 50 million, you know, everything still kind of revolves around him because I don't even know what the market would be for him. And as you pointed out, they're not like, they can't just like tear this whole thing and necessarily start all over. I don't know if Harden's going to opt out because of the over 38 rule. If they extend him, like, is he probably thinking in the back of his head this league still owes him money because of the Philadelphia thing?
- [88:38]
Bill Simmons
I just think he's got to opt in at the 36. You have to.
- [88:43]
Ryan Rosillo
But he could opt out and go.
- [88:44]
Bill Simmons
Fine, you can't do that again. Did he did that the last time?
- [88:47]
Ryan Rosillo
No. But if he already understands, like, all right, how about I figure out a way to give us. Because I think last season was, you know, they were smart about the Paul George thing.
- [88:55]
Bill Simmons
How much money can James Harden give away?
- [88:58]
Ryan Rosillo
I'm talking about opting out of the player option of 36 million and then doing a three year extension and then having the number be less each year. So it's like, okay, James, like, why don't we do it this way? And maybe there's more flexibility. But they've done a good job of kind of resetting the financial restrictions here because depending on, you know, the options and who they want to keep around here. But you, you seem to be completely either not being with me on this hardened thing at all. Do you not understand, like just.
- [89:25]
Bill Simmons
No, I do understand.
- [89:26]
Ryan Rosillo
Less average annual salary for a couple more years.
- [89:28]
Bill Simmons
Now I'm in business with James Harden for three more years. I just, I.
- [89:33]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, I know we didn't make a compelling case of wanting to be in a long term relationship with them last few minutes, but I don't know what their options are, to say the least.
- [89:41]
Bill Simmons
That, I mean, we just went through it for eight minutes. So now I have to bring him back for three years. I would do 36 million if you opt in. Okay, let's see how it goes. And then I have him. I have all these expirings and I can get a little frisky either before the season or heading into February because the best thing that happened to them is Kawhi and how good Kawhi was. I think the last three months of this season combined with Zubots at the foundation of something and have some flexibility and they have one of the. But it's a front office you and I both really respect. Like, I feel like they're going to figure out they have options.
- [90:17]
Ryan Rosillo
I don't think they have a lot of options, though.
- [90:19]
Bill Simmons
But that doesn't mean you have to give James Harden 100 million for three. Like, we'll shave 5 million off your deal.
- [90:25]
Ryan Rosillo
But I wasn't talking about 100 million.
- [90:28]
Bill Simmons
What would you do if he's going to opt out of his 36? Then you're talking about like those deals. Like what? Like CJ McCollum did some other people.
- [90:37]
Ryan Rosillo
Where it's like, would you do what? If he says, I'll opt out, I'll do three years, 70 million.
- [90:45]
Bill Simmons
Now you have my attention.
- [90:47]
Ryan Rosillo
That's what I'm talking about.
- [90:49]
Bill Simmons
Would he do that?
- [90:51]
Ryan Rosillo
Do you think he would? What do you think he signs for after another year? He'll be 37 that summer. Do you think he's making.
- [91:01]
Bill Simmons
Listen, you're asking a year. You're asking me to figure out the motivations of somebody who's passed up two giant max deals over the last six years to take.
- [91:09]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, we know I did it in Philly.
- [91:10]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, no, I get it. Well, the bigger question for me is you're in the West. You're in the same division or the same conference as okc, who's just a fucking nightmare. You're in the same conference as Minnesota is a Fucking nightmare. You have Wemby in San Antonio with these draft picks and cap space. You have Luka and the Lakers. He gone through. It's a nightmare conference. And you just. And Jokic, who just beat you, I don't know. You're in no man's land. But the owners, like, the owner just flew 200 fans to Denver for Game 7. Like, he's not going to think they have a chance on the way back. Why was there more social media from the fight?
- [91:55]
Ryan Rosillo
I want to.
- [91:56]
Bill Simmons
Silence.
- [91:56]
Ryan Rosillo
I want to read that on the Athletic, the flight home. Like, are we landing.
- [92:05]
Bill Simmons
Maybe it's a documentary.
- [92:07]
Ryan Rosillo
We're landing in Barstow, by the way.
- [92:10]
Bill Simmons
I think it's one of those guys, you have to find your own way home. Denver Airport's over there. So you're just, you're, you're trying to do 370 for Harden. I mean, maybe that's, maybe that's nuts.
- [92:23]
Ryan Rosillo
But like, Harden Next year, 37 coming off the 36 million, who knows? Does he, does he look at it as like, I'm going to get another 40 million guaranteed on the books right now? Maybe he thinks, hey, that's ridiculous. I can do another 3 for 75 after that. Keeping this high average annual for this one. The chances are is that he's on the team. Kawhi is on the team. So that's whatever this is. It's like 80 plus million with those two dudes. They don't have a young player that you're really excited about. That maybe can entice a vet to say, I want to be traded there because it's LA and it's a great coaching staff and front office, great ownership. There's a lot of stuff about it that feels really attractive for the next guy that's mad. But it's not a great group on the court to be mad enough to be like, I'm going there.
- [93:08]
Bill Simmons
If you had to do a pie chart of this will be better next year, this would be the same, or, ooh, this will be worse. I think the ooh, this will be worse is 60% of the pie, right? Cause you, you basically have to get another healthy Kawhi season. I have no, no idea how many of those are left. You know, you're never getting a better Zubot season. You got Norm, pal.
- [93:32]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, you might get the same.
- [93:34]
Bill Simmons
You might get the same. You're not getting a better season.
- [93:37]
Ryan Rosillo
I mean, unless you wanted to trade Zoo. Can you get creative with a zoo? Norm?
- [93:42]
Bill Simmons
I. Zoo's like, I thought it's weird his stats went down as a Series 1 alum, but I really respected how he went at Jokic.
- [93:51]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I love it.
- [93:51]
Bill Simmons
I don't know where the rebounding was for him. I. I thought he was a better rebounder in the regular season than he was in the playoffs. But I just think. I think when you play Jokic for two straight weeks, I think it starts to break your brain after a while. If you're. If you're actually. You're in charge of defending him and stopping him, can you imagine that, the response? But just, like, going to sleep and being like, yeah, I gotta play Jokic again tomorrow. Like, how. Like, that's like three hours sleep. He's lying in bed staring at the ceiling like, fucking a Next team for. What do you do?
- [94:26]
Ryan Rosillo
So basically we agree, though, on the Clippers, you didn't have some magic, crazy scenario here. Because when I was doing it out this morning, I'm like, I don't really know how different the crazy scenario is.
- [94:35]
Bill Simmons
Do you take a big contract from somebody that somebody is kind of excited to get off of? Like, whatever this year's version of Brandon Ingram is? And Brandon Ingram didn't get traded. But do you talk yourself into a Brandon Ingram type? Somebody who's available and expensive? You know, that's the question for me. I don't know who that is yet. Because we haven't seen. First of all, the playoffs have to shake out a certain way. Somebody might tail out in the second round. Who knows? The Pistons get really interesting because they have Hardaway and Schroeder and Beasley all as unrestricted free agents. They have tobias on a 26.6 expiring, and they have Ivey coming back.
- [95:19]
Ryan Rosillo
They have Harris.
- [95:20]
Bill Simmons
They do. And you could talk me into, hey, let's just keep the trains moving. The thing I would recommend them not doing is overreacting to how the playoffs went and doing new, longer big deals with Beasley and. And Hardaway and Schroeder and being like, we have our nucleus. I would go the hired gun route for those. But this is an interesting KD destination. So let's talk about it.
- [95:53]
Ryan Rosillo
We were talking about, hey, how do you feel about the Rockets, right? What's the grade you give them? And it sucks right now, but the season was a success. Detroit, you gotta feel great about this. And I think they battled with New York to even a higher level. You know, there's a couple things where this breaks maybe to a Game seven. So I thought they competed to a level that I didn't know that they were going to get to against the Knicks. And I'm totally with you, like I think because of the free agent class being so bad. But then you know, are the Nets going to sign Malik Beasley to a huge contract? And then after the Nets, you look at who has available cap space. Detroit has cap space, but with Cade's new deal, because he's going to make all NBA, it's going to be 19 million in cap space as opposed to 24. Chicago's got 20 million in cap space. Memphis has like 17 and a half. There's like five teams that have between 15 and 12 million and then you kind of run out of teams. So you start going, okay, if we know something about this year with Detroit, it's that spacing around Cade is really, really important. And as much as we all love Duran, he's not going to provide that spacing ever. So you really have to make sure rotationally around that you're doing those kinds of things. But Beasley season this year, I'd be scared to death of what that price tag ends up being because another team may just say, screw it, let's throw him a crazy contract because he was so good this year from three when I don't even know that I necessarily trust him. So, you know, Hardaway was a bigger number. I'd have to keep one of those guys. They can get creative because of their own cap space and how they want to structure those contracts.
- [97:23]
Bill Simmons
But Hardaway was old contract, so he was like 16, 17 million range. He's not seeing that again. He's, he's now a 6 to 8 million player. I think in the market I'd rather.
- [97:33]
Ryan Rosillo
Pay him 6 to 8 than pay Beasley. What I think might be a scary number from the one other team that goes, ah, we've got this cat straight, so let's just use it on somebody. And look at all the threes that he made. The biggest part of this is that Ivy's going to come back. And it's easy to forget that Ivy in 30 games shot 41% from three. He was terrific. And I think in the playoffs it shows. As tough as Schroeder was and he was big for them and he fights like crazy because clearly he takes the Brunson thing personal. Yeah, Ivy being a second on ball creator and getting his own at his size and his athleticism, I think that's actually going to solve some of the problem, especially if that three point shooting holds up. So we know Cade needs spacing. I would not be in any Kind of hurry to mess with this. Houston, I think, is on a different timeline because they have all these different guys that they still probably don't even know who they want to make decisions on. Or maybe they do, but there's not necessarily enough assets for Detroit to have to get as creative as Houston could potentially get. I would really just be steady here if I were Detroit, making sure I don't let all of this shooting leave. But I think I'm probably going to be scared off by the Beasley price tag.
- [98:39]
Bill Simmons
So Phoenix calls and says Tobias and Thompson and Fontechio actually works in the trade machine with KD and throw us some picks and let's start talking. You have the meeting, you have the internal meeting with the rest of the front office, trying to figure it out.
- [98:59]
Ryan Rosillo
You definitely have a meeting. KD1 here, you have to have a meeting, even if a man is asked for in the Houston one.
- [99:04]
Bill Simmons
But you see, I'm saying, do you have like a. Do you have a small meeting with your inner, inner circle or do you keep it open and invite a bunch of people?
- [99:13]
Ryan Rosillo
What is it again?
- [99:14]
Bill Simmons
Do you have a catered lunch for the meeting? How?
- [99:17]
Ryan Rosillo
Little Caesars.
- [99:18]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [99:18]
Ryan Rosillo
Probably get a deal. What is it again? Fontechio, which obviously gets just Tobias Fontechio.
- [99:24]
Bill Simmons
But Thompson would be the big piece. And then you throw a bunch of picks, you do three first and two swaps, whatever the fuck it is, for three years of KD. Then you bring in KD for 50 plus million, you sign him for the two year extension. So it's 150 million commitment. I personally wouldn't do it. I would just keep the. Because I don't think they're going to win the title or come close with any sort of trade. The only one that I think you really have to think about is if they could get Giannis. And it's a mortgage to farm thing and basically everybody's available except Cade. Like Duran and Thompson are in it, Tobias's contract is in it, Fontechio's in it, picks are in it. You're just like, we're going all in on Giannis and we're going to have a Giannis Cade franchise and we'll be able to fill it around. We'll be able to fill around those two guys and actually try to win the title.
- [100:18]
Ryan Rosillo
You could have the Tigers too. I mean, if you're talking about Cade and Giannis on pick and roll lobs.
- [100:23]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, you've probably thrown in some Tigers, maybe a couple Red Wings, but yeah.
- [100:32]
Ryan Rosillo
The Durant thing Really hinges more on like, hey, what's the history here? Is he super happy everywhere he goes? So I think I'd be a little cautious if I were Detroit. Granted, we're talking about a team that just won their first playoff game since 2008, which seems just impossible.
- [100:51]
Bill Simmons
So we agree. Take your time, Detroit. Maybe even target February as let's see where we are in February and maybe we have some expiring so we have some stuff. I would not overpay Beasley. I'd probably go two years for him. Maybe like a 30 for 2. 30 for 2. Maybe Hardaway 2 for 16. Try to try to do something like that. You bring Ivy back.
- [101:23]
Ryan Rosillo
Would you do. I was looking at this.
- [101:31]
Bill Simmons
You have another trade for me?
- [101:34]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. Is there? No. I'm not even going to do it. I'm not going to do it. This is stupid.
- [101:42]
Bill Simmons
Can you be the player you were thinking about? Was it Jalen?
- [101:49]
Ryan Rosillo
Jalen Green? Jalen Brown?
- [101:52]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. I'm always nervous you're gonna suggest a Jaylen Brown trade. This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. There's still a lot of stigma around mental health. Let's change that. This Mental health awareness month, let's encourage everyone to get support when they need it. And if you're not sure where to find that support, check out BetterHelp. With a network of over 30,000 licensed therapists, they can help you find the right fit. We're all better with help. Visit betterhelp.com billsimmons to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H-E L p.com billsimmons this message is brought to you by Apple Card. Apple Card is a no fee credit card that gives you daily cash back every day. That's 3% back at Apple and 2% back on every purchase made with Apple Card using Apple Pay. Apply for Apple Card, the wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.24% to 28.49% based on creditworthiness rates as of January 1, 2025. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City branch terms and more at applecard.com LeBron has a $52 million player option. Cleba and Vincent 22.5 million combined. Expiring Ruiz on an 18.3 expiring. Finney Smith's on a 15.4 expiring. This is all next year. Then Reeves is 14 and then 15. So they have some flexibility. Kept a couple picks. They clearly need A center and a rim runner. My question would be, would you trade Reeves? If you could get a, if you get a real, real some sort of rim protector, somebody like a, like a richer man's Miles Turner in that range, would you trade Reaves or do you feel like you could build around luka Reeves and 41 year old LeBron and then there's something there to try to win multiple playoff rounds.
- [103:51]
Ryan Rosillo
The first thing's going to be LeBron's number because depending on granted, he took just a sliver to keep them away from the most restrictions. And then there's a bunch of people being like, see, it's like, well, all.
- [104:07]
Bill Simmons
Right, drafted his son and gave him a four year, no cut contract, right?
- [104:13]
Ryan Rosillo
If he stays at around 50 million, they're going to be, I would say on the practical things that would happen here, they're going to be 6,7 million below the first apron. So if that puts him as his tax team, I don't know what kind of big you're signing for a 5 to 6 million dollars tax mid level.
- [104:35]
Bill Simmons
You know what season it is though, right now? It's ridiculous. Trades on social media for centers, they'll never get. It's like they should get Bam out of bio. It's like, oh, cool.
- [104:45]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, they're a little emboldened.
- [104:46]
Bill Simmons
How are they doing that now?
- [104:48]
Ryan Rosillo
I mean, basically Jokic, once the coach was fired, was in the Lakers jersey and now Giannis has been in one and. Yeah, as much as she likes. Yeah. Like, I don't even know how they get Miles Turner.
- [105:00]
Bill Simmons
I don't know how they get anybody. I mean, well, how they get somebody is if, if you have the two expirings, I mean, they could. The thing is, with all the expirings, they can work toward any kind of number, Right? So could they get Sabonis?
- [105:16]
Ryan Rosillo
Okay, but what, what is going out that's exciting? Because this is where it comes back to the Austin Reeves thing, which I don't think they would want to do because he's really good and he's 26 years old. But if they thought, okay, what could we do to shake things up? Like as a bam, like, would you do Austin Reeves for BAM just in a vacuum?
- [105:34]
Bill Simmons
No.
- [105:35]
Ryan Rosillo
If you were the Lakers?
- [105:36]
Bill Simmons
No, I wouldn't do it. If I'm Miami, I'm not doing that in a million years. Why am I trading Bam for Austin Reeves?
- [105:42]
Ryan Rosillo
I'm just trying to see where your head's at with this.
- [105:45]
Bill Simmons
I was thinking Sabonis I thought was an interesting one. Because if I'm Sacramento. No.
- [105:50]
Ryan Rosillo
All right. God.
- [105:52]
Bill Simmons
If I'm Sacramento, I put together this team that clearly doesn't work. I'm paying Sabonis more money than he's worth. For somebody who's basically. If he's your most expensive guy, you're going to be a slightly better than.500 team. You're probably not going to have a huge playoff upside, and you're going to get torched offensively unless you put the perfect amount of guys around him. And could you give. Could you give them a get out of jail free card with that Sabonis contract? Be like, we'll give you all expirings and a couple firsts and you can get out of Sabonis. I don't know if the Kings are at that point with that contract yet. They might not be. Look at the contract.
- [106:37]
Ryan Rosillo
It is nasty. It's 43, 47 and then 50.
- [106:41]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, it's a lot. But I'll tell you this, paying LeBron $52 million when he's 41 years old is fucking crazy. That's a lot of money.
- [106:53]
Ryan Rosillo
But if you get the year you just got from him, he's worth it. I mean, I know the playoffs didn't close the way everybody expected. I think that's another reason of even talking about Houston, Golden State. You can sit here and make fun of, oh, look at this Lakers group. They didn't even get out of the first round. This first round was. All of this stuff was on the table. And granted it was five games and it was felt over the course of the five games, they weren't even close. I think it's a bad draw for the Lakers now that we saw it actually play out. Even though nobody felt that way. Very few people felt that way at the beginning of it. I don't really know. I mean, you know, we keep writing these teams down, like, what would you do? What would you do? I think they need to figure out a way to try to get cheap rim runners. Like a baseball team that doesn't love their starters 3, 4 and 5. And then just all of a sudden you're like, Al Leiter still around. Like, you signed. You signed this guy. Like, the Walker Kessler shit doesn't make a ton of sense. I don't think Dalton Connect gets. Walt gets, Kessler done.
- [107:48]
Bill Simmons
Well, I was thinking with Utah, who has too many guys plus a bunch of picks, and if they floated Austin Reeves to Utah, what's the reaction? Like, that's one where you could get a 3 for 1 and a 4 for 1 and picks.
- [108:03]
Ryan Rosillo
Feels weird. They already have Philipowski.
- [108:06]
Bill Simmons
We could put Austin, Reeves, Filipowski and Kessler.
- [108:10]
Ryan Rosillo
Could they hoosier it out if they get Martin and we could have Cooper flag just.
- [108:17]
Bill Simmons
I think Reeves on that contract making.
- [108:19]
Ryan Rosillo
For just Will Hardy go on teams on the floor.
- [108:24]
Bill Simmons
I think. I think Reeves at 14 and 15 when you throw expirings with him, you could get some really good players at that point. I don't know if you could get Bam. Out of bio.
- [108:37]
Ryan Rosillo
You're. You're with me though. It's an automatic no from Miami. As much as we love.
- [108:41]
Bill Simmons
Yes. Automatic.
- [108:42]
Ryan Rosillo
Okay.
- [108:42]
Bill Simmons
Automatic.
- [108:43]
Ryan Rosillo
Can you think of anything where if you're the Lakers. You go now I have. I have to think about this a little bit.
- [108:50]
Bill Simmons
Embiid.
- [108:53]
Ryan Rosillo
That's something the Lakers would like traditionally do.
- [108:59]
Bill Simmons
Talk about get out of jail free cards.
- [109:01]
Ryan Rosillo
I think the 62 in a second.
- [109:03]
Bill Simmons
We'll give you all of our expirings and a first and we'll get you out of the Joanne beaded business. Here's your get out of jail free card right now. You don't have to deal with them anymore.
- [109:13]
Ryan Rosillo
I heard a Mead was available at the trade deadline. It'd be irresponsible to not even ask. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [109:20]
Bill Simmons
Come on.
- [109:22]
Ryan Rosillo
But I mean like.
- [109:23]
Bill Simmons
Oh, we're getting on hoops hype tomorrow. Yeah, baby. Hoops hype.
- [109:30]
Ryan Rosillo
It may have been a woulda.
- [109:35]
Bill Simmons
But.
- [109:35]
Ryan Rosillo
I. I think this happens all the time. So it shouldn't be something that's that big of a deal.
- [109:39]
Bill Simmons
We're getting so aggregated.
- [109:40]
Ryan Rosillo
But I don't know that you're doing your job.
- [109:42]
Bill Simmons
How. How are you searching about Bobby Barack again? We can get aggregated by them too. Let's try to get aggregated. Think Barack will pick that up post?
- [109:53]
Ryan Rosillo
Are you talking about Obama?
- [109:56]
Bill Simmons
No, I'm talking about aed.
- [109:58]
Ryan Rosillo
Oh, you think it's surprising that. That. That Daryl would potentially float the idea?
- [110:04]
Bill Simmons
I just had. I was excited about the info. I think Daryl talks to everybody all the time. I think he calls people constantly and they're Darrelson, Tommy Shepherd's like, I'm not.
- [110:15]
Ryan Rosillo
In charge of the Wizards anymore.
- [110:17]
Bill Simmons
Stop bothering me.
- [110:18]
Ryan Rosillo
Fuck.
- [110:22]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. So. All right. That's my favorite Lakers move all their expirings and two first round picks and they get embiid and Philly.
- [110:29]
Ryan Rosillo
So not Reeves.
- [110:31]
Bill Simmons
Reeves isn't in it.
- [110:32]
Ryan Rosillo
Oh, Reeves isn't in it.
- [110:33]
Bill Simmons
He's not in it.
- [110:34]
Ryan Rosillo
You.
- [110:34]
Bill Simmons
You don't even get Reeves. We don't ever playing again. I'm like, I'll take Embiid. You can have one of our first round picks and we'll. And here's some bunch of expirings.
- [110:45]
Ryan Rosillo
I think what they need to do is figure out a way to. And you know, I don't know what's going to happen with all the decisions here but if they're below the tax can they use, you know the, the non taxpayer mid level is. Is a decent. You know, it's a decent. It's like 14 million. So could you go after like I know nobody likes Clint Capela anymore. He's 31 years old. You put Clint with Luca. Does it work now? His numbers decline. Some of the advanced stuff declined. He also played less. It also felt like Atlanta was waking forever to have a Kong Wu be the guy. And clearly he balances them out a little bit better offensively. So maybe Clint isn't worth it at this point. I don't know.
- [111:27]
Bill Simmons
When was the last time you got super excited watching Clint Capella play basketball? Three years.
- [111:33]
Ryan Rosillo
Jackson Hayes catching lobs from Luke in the beginning was exciting to Lakers fans. They're like, unlock Jackson. This is awesome. What about Jonathan Isaac? Is there a Jonathan Isaac? But I don't know if Orlando wants to be in the Gabe Vincent business.
- [111:46]
Bill Simmons
What about Mark Williams?
- [111:49]
Ryan Rosillo
A rekindling Bataze? I'd be calling about Bataze. I'd be. What about DeAndre 8?
- [111:57]
Bill Simmons
I say now we're talking 35.
- [112:00]
Ryan Rosillo
35 now.
- [112:02]
Bill Simmons
Now we're talking DeAndre Ayton. So a couple expirings. Do you think when they shop Rui around all summer while pretending that they really like him, they're just hoping nobody watches the rebounding in Game 5? He's been, he was really good for us this year. Can we see the tape of game five? It's been destroyed. We don't have it.
- [112:23]
Ryan Rosillo
Um, is there a. Is there a Rui? Cause there's nothing that screams Lakers more than like I Love Matt.
- [112:31]
Bill Simmons
Matt DeAndre idea. LeBron can teach him how to win.
- [112:34]
Ryan Rosillo
Right? Right. So all this talent still really young. Yeah, he's at 35 million. So you load up Rui, you throw in a pick, maybe a little Dalton connect action in there.
- [112:44]
Bill Simmons
Ooh, Dalton.
- [112:45]
Ryan Rosillo
Right. So you start going up a trade machine right now. What's the point? Right. Why does Portland want Rui? Well, maybe they don't want Rui, but is there some version of this? There's. They're grabbing an asset of getting somebody out. Culture wise change of scenery, the change of scenery pieces for deandre Ayton in a Lakers uniform alone. Those are going to. Writers are going to have beach houses, people clicking on those fucking things.
- [113:07]
Bill Simmons
LeBron has wanted to play with somebody like this for his entire career.
- [113:11]
Ryan Rosillo
Right. Ayton's never played Luca, and Luca's never played with a stretch five.
- [113:18]
Bill Simmons
Lucas still remembers how good Ayton was in their one playoff series.
- [113:22]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah.
- [113:23]
Bill Simmons
Oh, yeah. Poor Zingis.
- [113:24]
Ryan Rosillo
He had made it to an NBA Finals. It was too soon, Peyton, you know.
- [113:30]
Bill Simmons
So you're saying Rui, I feel like they could. I think they could keep Rui. I think they could get Ayton for Maxi Kleba, Gabe Vincent and another contract and throw a first round pick. And Portland's super happy to dump that last eight in year.
- [113:47]
Ryan Rosillo
So just a first round pick.
- [113:48]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, and I think I'd even say top four protected. Great. We solved. The Lakers, Milwaukee Bucks, I have no solution for. I really wanted to come on here and say something provocative and smart and forward thinking and I don't know what it is. But the thing is, if Giannis says, I don't want to be traded, then do you trade him? What if Giannis says, I'm happy here, I don't want to leave Milwaukee, I don't trade him.
- [114:14]
Ryan Rosillo
I don't take any calls.
- [114:15]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I don't either. My goal would be to keep Giannis.
- [114:18]
Ryan Rosillo
The forgotten zone of this league is okay, we're screwed. And you laid it out perfectly last week when you really dug into how bad the future draft stuff is for them. So when you're married to having none of that coming in, then you can't. No one ever wants to hear it, but there's a lot of honest conversations where teams, believe it or not, are opening the season going, all right, we have Giannis and we'll probably win like 45 to 48 games. And that's probably who we are. But at least we have Giannis. I mean, hell, Atlanta's been doing that with Trey this whole time. Charlotte's going to keep doing it. At least Giannis is one of the best players in the world. So if Giannis doesn't want to go anywhere, that's enough for me. And I just like, all right, hopefully we can get competitive and then one year is a short amount of time. Who knows what happens? The problem is for Giannis and look, this might be a league wide thing, but you know how we always talk about like, oh, this guy likes this guy and that guy wants to go there and Glenn Davis is now in Orlando because of this, and they brought in Jarrett Jack because Chris Paul likes him. Like all of these things that we used to talk about, granted, it was the Big Three in Miami and then everybody trying to figure out how to team up and all that stuff. It feels like that doesn't necessarily happen as much anymore.
- [115:30]
Bill Simmons
So there's more animosity than we've had in a while.
- [115:33]
Ryan Rosillo
But Jokic isn't going to be somebody who's going to be coming up through the AAU ranks and having those relationships with the other stars. I mean, every star who's like me on the fence about sticking around should want to go play in Denver, but I don't know that he has the relationship with other players. I think the same goes for Giannis, and I just don't know a norm of this league. It doesn't feel like it's as normal as guys being like, hey, let's like Paul, George and Kawhi and all that kind of stuff. I don't. I don't know that we have that as much anymore. It doesn't mean it can't happen again. But if Giannis is just happy there, then that's enough for me. If I'm running the Bucks, I don't care. Yeah, I know we're not going to win the title next year.
- [116:08]
Bill Simmons
He'd have to ask out. And even if he asks out, I'm not trading him unless I can get a trade I'm pumped about and that's it. Not going to give you away for 60 cents on the dollar because you don't want to play for us anymore. You signed an extension. Let me try to figure out a good trade for us. Can't figure it out. Let's take it in this season and try to figure it out in the December, February range once eight teams are unhappy with how their season is going. And then we'll do the trade. But you have our word, at some point we're going to do it. Just keep playing hard and we'll figure it out. And then you kind of keep your fingers crossed that Dame can come back from Achilles surgery in five months. Dame sets the record for coming back. They made two trades where they gave up an inordinate amount of picks for one player because they wanted to win the title and they won the 2021 title. They couldn't win it with Dame, but they traded a shitload of draft picks. Like, this is what happens if you're mortgaging all this stuff to win. Now everyone forgets that part. It's like, oh, man, they got to get Giannis some help. It's like they did. They made two massive trades and gave away a bunch of assets to try to get him help. Now they're here. This is how it works. This is how the league works.
- [117:24]
Ryan Rosillo
And they have Kuzma on the books.
- [117:27]
Bill Simmons
Well, that one neither of us agreed with because we watch basketball. I don't know how anybody could watch basketball this season and thought Kuzma was going to make a difference.
- [117:36]
Ryan Rosillo
That's a huge. I mean, he's like 23 million in the next two years. The only other one over the next.
- [117:41]
Bill Simmons
Two, the Heat got knocked out. And I don't really know what the Heat do either. Where you have a Bam Hero. Wiggins Foundation. Right?
- [117:51]
Ryan Rosillo
Wiggins.
- [117:52]
Bill Simmons
Wiggins. He's still there.
- [117:54]
Ryan Rosillo
All their guys are under contract. You want to go through a tough book here. Hero and Bam, fine. The fact that you're only going to be paying them, I think before the Bam extension kicks in here, or, you know, because it's going to jump up. He's going to be like a $50 million a year player.
- [118:08]
Bill Simmons
Hero got barbecued in the Cleveland series.
- [118:11]
Ryan Rosillo
He did. But his shot making, it's really good. Pretty special.
- [118:15]
Bill Simmons
Maybe he should be a six man.
- [118:16]
Ryan Rosillo
He should be a third option, I would say, but, you know, sometimes we look at guys and be like, okay, cool. It'd be awesome if we had two dudes that were better than him and he would be our third option. BAM is not enough offensively, as much as we all love him, they're on the books next year. They've got Wiggins for 28 and then a player option probably going to pick that one up. 30.1 million in 26, 27. Terry Rogier's 26.6. Duncan Robinson, one of the few remaining early termination options. Just at 19. 8 million. Kyle Anderson's on the books for nine. So they have a bunch of contracts of dudes that probably are not in demand.
- [118:59]
Bill Simmons
The Butlers, they murdered them.
- [119:01]
Ryan Rosillo
Unless somebody said, I am so mad, I have one year left. I'm only going there. Why are you going there? Because you love Bam and Tyler Herro.
- [119:14]
Bill Simmons
The only reason I wouldn't count them out is just because they've pulled rabbits out of the hat over and over again over the last 15 years. Every time we felt like rock bottom, then they'd make some. Even the Butler thing, which is one of the craziest transaction sequences in the recent history of the league. And they pulled it off. And I still don't know how they got anyone to take Hassan Whiteside? I still don't understand it, but this time it seems bleak because I thought the one guy we didn't mention that I wonder is out there in some form who I think would be considered a real asset is Jaren Jackson. If Memphis is handcuffed at all by being able to spend as much money as it's going to take to keep him, if he makes all NBA this year and is in different triggers come in. I just, just monitoring that one.
- [120:10]
Ryan Rosillo
I'd be happy to be in the Jaren Jackson business even with. Well I really started like him even more this year even though I know you get mad about his fouls, which you should get mad about his fouls as fouls.
- [120:22]
Bill Simmons
I know the rebounding makes me madder than the fouls get. Can you get nine rebounds?
- [120:27]
Ryan Rosillo
I would say down 30 to OKC and running Jaren Jackson post ups clear out like I don't really know what was going on there but I mean that series was such a mess.
- [120:38]
Bill Simmons
Can I I forgot to give you one Giannis situation. If OKC somehow lost this round or next round, huge upset loss, would they would Presti, who by the way has only made the finals once and lost the finals 4 to 1 and has not been back since, even though we all agree he's one of the best GMs of this century. But at some point he hasn't won titles or even finals games, I wonder if he would just be like fuck it and do like a giant Giannis thing. And if you're Giannis and you could go to OKC and be on this incredible team that's a team that's actually built to make a 160 cents on the dollar trade they wanted to.
- [121:25]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I do wonder about that because I would say that that's kind of the lingering. As much as Bucks fans hate all the Giannis trade stuff that's gone on forever and then he signs an extension. I mean this has been going on for a long time with the Yanis speculation. And then sometimes when you hear the speculation you wonder like have I heard anything specific? Is there anything new that sounds like it's very specific or is it everybody just repeating everybody else that thinks like eventually he's going to ask out and it's been going on for such a long time again in this time he actually signed an extension. So Bucks fans, much like Cavs fans with the Mitchell stuff because they were hearing the same shit from all of us over and over again, it's like A nice little victory lap.
- [121:59]
Bill Simmons
We were right.
- [121:59]
Ryan Rosillo
Hey, guys, we were. The OKC one is like, should it matter? I know it's. It's kind of back to the beginning conversation about Houston. Should it matter on where they're at in the playoffs?
- [122:16]
Bill Simmons
Oh, I think if OKC doesn't win this year, they have to really think we're really close. How do we not win the title? We were favored. All the mass said we were going to win the title. If they don't, if they get bounced in one of these next three rounds, I think that's. I think that's the biggest overreaction team. Even though Preston doesn't overreact, I think you'd have to really think about it. Like, what's the point of having all these assets and all these picks if you're not going to cash them in at some point? Like, this isn't. This isn't blackjack, where you just get to stack chips. Like, at some point you have to try to win the title and they have the best chance this year. But. But, you know, if Giannis is on the table and they can make a run on him and they're. And they're bummed out because they couldn't get it done in the playoffs when it mattered. I don't know. I still think it would be. My bet would be in Houston if I had to bet on a team. I think the Houston thing makes so much sense in so many different ways, and I think it's a good spot for him. I think it's good for everybody. That's the trade that makes sense to me.
- [123:17]
Ryan Rosillo
Is there a trade built around Chet or Jalen Williams and all the draft picks that you'd have to sift through, which ones you thought were the more valuable ones if you were horsed where the most.
- [123:31]
Bill Simmons
You insist on Chet, Right. If you're. If you're Milwaukee, you're like, chet has to be in it. I'm not even discussing this unless. Call me back when Chet's in the trade.
- [123:39]
Ryan Rosillo
Wait, if you're Presti or Stone, what's a quicker. No. Them asking for Chet or asking Stone in Houston for a man press the.
- [123:48]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I think amends are quicker now because Chet's been hurt twice already. Said two injuries already, right?
- [123:58]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I think you're right. The injury thing, I can't. I can't throw a counter argument to that. You're right.
- [124:02]
Bill Simmons
He's also one of those guys, when you watch him run around, you're like, ah.
- [124:07]
Ryan Rosillo
I don't know. Did you watch that third quarter against Memphis?
- [124:09]
Bill Simmons
No, and I. Listen, you don't have to sell me on chat. It's just he said two injuries is 23, so that part does scare me a tiny bit. So I think. When you ask me quicker. No, I just think Thompson's, like, not trading that dude. Shut up. Hang up. But if I'm okc, I'm trying to. Now, I'm assuming I've had some sort of terrible playoff loss. Probably trying to start with, how about Hartenstein and then. And how about. You seen Kason Wallace? He's really good, huh?
- [124:40]
Ryan Rosillo
Hear Priscilla talk about Usman Jang?
- [124:44]
Bill Simmons
See our lottery pick with the seventh pick in the draft? Like anyone in the lottery, yeah, you're moving that way. But that's the thing. If Giannis is in, if Giannis is actually going to be traded, good people are going to be in the trade. You don't just get to not put a good person in the trade. You know, it's the thing.
- [125:01]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, but when you were talking Houston and you're, like, getting to meet Shingoon, Jalen Green, it's like, can I have any of the other guys? So you would do Jabari Shingoon now? I don't know what the salary.
- [125:13]
Bill Simmons
I think Shangun, Jabari Eason, and Jalen Green, at least three, but maybe even all four are all in the trade. Right. If I'm not getting Thompson, then I get everybody else. That's where we're starting. Just keep giving me dudes. We got to wrap it up. Do you have any. You want to do a Bill Belichick update quick?
- [125:40]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I have a small, small piece of. Of stuff here.
- [125:45]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, let's see.
- [125:45]
Ryan Rosillo
I got to. You know, why don't you start, though? Because I got to look up. I got to make sure I got my facts straight here.
- [125:55]
Bill Simmons
I was trying to think that maybe with coaches, maybe it just doesn't end well. And that's how this usually goes with guys who are super powerful and fly a little too close to the sun and are used to controlling their circumstances, which becomes harder and harder as you get older and you have to stay on top of the ball, that maybe this goes worse more times than we realize. And when we're talking about, I can't believe this is happening to Belichick. Maybe we shouldn't be surprised that it's happening to somebody in their mid-70s, that they're making some bad decisions, because we see this in every aspect of life. It's like, what's he doing with this girl? It's like, well, you know, this is.
- [126:37]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I don't even know that's how life goes. I don't know that I care about the personal part of it all that much because I really do kind of want to, like, leave people alone, you know, on that part of it. Even though we spend our entire careers talking about people.
- [126:52]
Bill Simmons
But this is leaked into the actual. Running this UNC program in a variety of ways, which is how it became a bigger story. And also that interview was so crazy. And for somebody who has been so intensely private, where you just know nothing about him ever, and then for that to happen the way it happened, it's just really weird. He would have been a top five draft pick of. I would never expect anything like this to happen to this person.
- [127:23]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, that's all true too. And I think when you probably look at him evaluating players and being like, what am I bringing into the locker room? Right. He didn't want free thinkers. He wanted people that were single minded. I mean, when you played for the Patriots, you weren't supposed to live in Boston. Like, that was thought of as a bad thing. If you were on the Patriots, who lived in Boston, no further than Attleboro. Yeah. Going to stay right here in. No offense to that part of the.
- [127:47]
Bill Simmons
State, but Providence, too far.
- [127:50]
Ryan Rosillo
So this is. If he were evaluating Bill, the person is Bill, he'd be like, what. What's going on here? I remember Stoops telling me the story about Gronkowski, where Belichick called about Gronk before the draft.
- [128:05]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [128:05]
Ryan Rosillo
And he was like, what's. Was this guy an end? That was it. He was like, no, man, he's the best. He's the best. And look, you picked him. Hall of Fame, Super Bowls later, it all worked out. But Bill always was very big on prioritizing. I don't want any extra shit. So if he were a booster with those values that he would take from his time running an NFL team, if he were a booster running a college football program and the money guy behind it, and then was evaluating the situation of the head coach being involved in something like this, like, Bill would be the first guy to be like, this is all stupid shit. We are giving people all the, like, the reason. His brilliance. Right. To think how simple his brilliance was. And even in the times I didn't like it where he just couldn't answer a question because he knew if he answered a question, it just opened up another question. And then he's like looking around at the world going, why do you answer any of this stuff. So I may not have always loved it. And again, it wasn't like I was a reporter who had to deal with any of this stuff, but there'd be times I didn't love it. I didn't love some of the press conferences where there were really serious issues. And it was like, you're going to play this card again like you want to be. But I admired the tactic because it was actually really smart. It was like. I remember when the Feeding the Monster book came out, Felgar and I. Felger had his radio show at the ESPN affiliate, right?
- [129:31]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [129:31]
Ryan Rosillo
And so I come in and it was one of the funniest. So it's Seth Mnookin, I think was his name, the author. He did Feeding the Monster. It was like this All Access thing that John Henry wanted because everybody was jealous of Moneyball. So Felger has Theo Epstein ready to go. It's the big Feeding the Monster interview. I've powered through the book, I've written down all my questions because I filled him with Felger for a month. And I promise there's a point to this story here. I know you love these long winded ones. So I show up to that radio station because I didn't really work there. It was just this month that I was there and you know me, all prepped up, all excited and I think the world of Theo. So I'm excited to even talk to him. And Felger looks at me and he goes, we've been mapping out the interview. I don't think we're going to have time for you to say anything. And I was like, great. But it was Felder show, it wasn't mine.
- [130:21]
Bill Simmons
Sounds like Schrager during the NFL draft. We're going to throw to you and Schefter again. Just smile for a minute, by the way, get up.
- [130:30]
Ryan Rosillo
Just absolutely dissing the, the combat odds for Schrager. Schrager's a big dude. They had like Schefter as the favorite in some Royal Rumble. And Schrager had the lowest odds. And I felt that he's like 6:2. Yeah, he's a big guy. So anyway, so Felgar looks at me, says, you, we're not gonna have any time for you. And I'm like, oh, okay. Fucking awesome. Of course, you know, back then, insecure and pissed and. But it was, it was the right thing. It was Feller's fucking show. And he wanted to map out the interview. He wanted to control all the, the timeline of things. So we crack the Mics. We bring in Theo. We're back from commercial. And Felger's like, all right, Theo Epstein, Jim, or whatever, he goes, okay, so on page 14, really jumped out. And Theo's like, I haven't read the book. He ruined Felger's entire plan because he thought he would at least know when the book was about him. And Theo just stopped him and was like, yeah. And it. And then Feller's looking at me like, you got anything? Do you have anything in there for somebody that's not going to acknowledge that the book even exists? And that's Belichick's playbook. All right, so that part is really interesting because it completely contradicts everything that he's valued. The last thing that I would say about this, and this is the part that always pisses me off, is whenever Bud Selig used to do this, constantly people be like, hey, baseball. It's kind of losing momentum. And by the way, all of those people were right. What's going on with baseball? What's going on, baseball? And Bud would point the TV deals like, look what we renewed for. Look at the growth on this TV deal versus the last rights deal we did. Conference commissioners all over the country do it every single time they re. Look how great of a job I'm doing. Look at what our new deal was compared to what our last deal was. Belichick in this email actually says. I will say again, quote, that I want this book to be presented as a look at my professional life and how I did my job on the way up to. And as the leader of an organization that grew from. From a $500 million franchise to an $8 billion organization that played in 10 Super Bowls. Super Bowls. Awesome. If you're suggesting that your run in New England increased the value of the team from 500 million to 8 billion, then what the fuck is Brady worth? And by the way, you were awesome. Maybe you've done it better than anybody else. No one would ever deny that. But that way of thinking is if you have as much to do with the value of a franchise in the NFL as the TV rights growth does. Like, that's insane. That's delusional. To think that you write that and be like, oh, wow, are any of the other NFL franchises worth a lot more than they were in the 90s? Well, of course the answer is yes. That's a really.
- [133:00]
Bill Simmons
Even the Bengals are worth more.
- [133:02]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, that's a very. Most people may not understand that. We understand it. People listening to this podcast understand that but to get to that kind of closing statement of, like, this team was worth 500 million before me, and now it's worth 8 billion. Dude, you were awesome. You did it again at a level that is unsustainable in the NFL, but the value has way more to do with TV rights than it does you.
- [133:24]
Bill Simmons
There's one other level to that point. It explains a lot about what happened from the mid 2010s on with Brady and Belichick, because everyone was like, patriot way, Patriot way. We're just about Super Bowls. But there was clearly some sort of ego thing. And it's two guys that really understood their places in history in a whole bunch of different ways. Right. And it was always like, we're in this together. There's no credit. But the credit thing was a big part of it. And Garoppolo's in there and he's really thinking about, I never wanted to believe it. I never. When Wickersham and people like that were reporting about it, and I was like, fuck that. I want to hear this. Stop trying to cause trouble. But there clearly was a ton of trouble. And I think when you win. When you win titles like that. We've seen this over. We saw with the Last Dance documentary, and you saw the Krause, Jordan. You saw Jordan and Pippen, who no longer talk. They hated Krause. The only one that really.
- [134:16]
Ryan Rosillo
The Krause stuff at the end is crazy.
- [134:18]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. They seem to get like, Phil Jackson, but then you look at the Kobe Shaq stuff with Phil Jackson and Phil Jackson's writing books. The credit grabbing that happens when you've had real success is surprising because the rings should be the best example of how much success you've had. But for whatever reason. So anyway, I think that really explained to me why Brady didn't end up with the Patriots. Because what everybody was writing about and doing the sports radio topic of who's more responsible for all the Super Bowls, Belichick or Brady. And the right answer was always both. They needed each other, and that's the answer. But clearly they both kind of thought each of them was more responsible than the other. So when I read that paragraph, I thought, man, Belichick must have been so pissed when Brady had that Tampa season where he won the title, because clearly he does give a shit about all this stuff and all the media. He did last year. The fact that he's writing this book, some of the documentaries. And we always thought, no, he doesn't care. He doesn't care. He clearly really cares. And so I read that same email and I'm like, oh, he really did. He really does have a massive ego about all this stuff that he would say that.
- [135:28]
Ryan Rosillo
It made me wonder too if he was thinking he's owed more when you start throwing around dollar figures.
- [135:36]
Bill Simmons
I mean, when Kraft bought the Patriots, they were ready to move to St. Louis and they didn't. He kind of saved the team. They were the black sheep of the, of the local sports scene. And then Brady and Belichick, I think both of them probably built it up. But like, you know, we saw this happen when LeBron was in Cleveland, right? Cleveland was like a top four franchise and all the Forbes list. And then he left and went to Miami and they were like 28th. And then he came back in 2014. It's like top five franchises in Cleveland's in there. So, you know, you get the right asset and it does make the franchise.
- [136:10]
Ryan Rosillo
But the funny thing is I'm not, I'm not diminishing his value, but I'm.
- [136:14]
Bill Simmons
No, I know what you're.
- [136:15]
Ryan Rosillo
The value of all these franchises has way more to do with television rights than even the accomplishments.
- [136:22]
Bill Simmons
But you don't think he put that in there partly because of what Kraft did with that Dynasty Apple thing? Yeah, that's 100% when Kraft's just rewriting history. It was the three of us that last 10 years, I was just holding on. I was holding us together with all the dumb shit he said of that. And now it's just these guys are like they're in credit grab bukkake, just going at it, just battle each other.
- [136:49]
Ryan Rosillo
Took us two hours to get a porn reference out of here.
- [136:51]
Bill Simmons
Yes. I thought you were over the two hour mark. Maybe I'll get aggregated again. Be great. Got to get those aggregators something. Anyway. Belichick's a classic example of if you had just left four years ago and just moved to Wyoming, done the Johnny Carson.
- [137:14]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I don't know.
- [137:15]
Bill Simmons
I talk about you so highly when.
- [137:17]
Ryan Rosillo
You'Ve been competing your entire life. I don't blame guys for wanting to hang on to the whole thing. I'll. The Brady Tampa Beach.
- [137:23]
Bill Simmons
Let's talk about that part.
- [137:24]
Ryan Rosillo
My second. That's my second favorite Brady Super Bowl.
- [137:27]
Bill Simmons
I'm Talking about the UNC 24 year old PR person controlling his life. People wondering if it's elder abuse. Like really like dark shit. People like, this has gotten to the point that my wife's friends are asking me about, hey, what's going on with Bill Belichick and this girl I read on Apple News they had a story about how crazy that's what this has reached. That CBS Sunday Morning thing was his version of Tom Cruise on the Oprah couch. It's part of his legacy now.
- [138:00]
Ryan Rosillo
I just don't understand somebody that understands how the media works as well as they do, which clearly he. He does. What he thought that was going to be like, hey, this is the deal. You come in, you promote the book, and we ask you questions about it.
- [138:12]
Bill Simmons
No, but maybe. But this is what people are worried about. Maybe he's not. Not batting a thousand right now.
- [138:18]
Ryan Rosillo
I'm not ready to go there. We'll see what kind of defense they're running.
- [138:21]
Bill Simmons
That Sunday morning thing was insane. That was insane. I never in a million kajillion years would have guessed that he would be in that position. Joe Fronty, maybe out of all people that was.
- [138:38]
Ryan Rosillo
That would be a good pod. Five guys, most likely that you would expect that to happen, too. That would be good.
- [138:45]
Bill Simmons
Before we go, picks for round two, Celtics. You still going, Cleveland?
- [138:52]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I think Brunson having to go through the gauntlet of options as opposed to being able to switch into Beasley Hardaway and Dennis Schroeder. Even though Schroeder, I think, competed like crazy against him. I think it's a little different challenge. And I think Cat is going to have to cover a lot more ground than he did against Duran. I'm still holding out hope Garland's going to come back Game two. But today was super impressive. I'm totally with you and you've been higher on the Pacers than I've been and you might be right about it. Okc, no issues. And I have Minnesota.
- [139:20]
Bill Simmons
Is there any case for Denver?
- [139:30]
Ryan Rosillo
I mean, you know, I could sit here and say, oh, yo, you know, the craziest thing about even the elimination game is Jokic and Murray weren't even going crazy. I think by Jokic's our standards for Jokic, this wasn't some like Jokic fest for seven games.
- [139:45]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, well, you know that they were.
- [139:47]
Ryan Rosillo
The first team with six players with 15 or more points in a game seven in NBA history.
- [139:53]
Bill Simmons
Those game seven. So like Christian Brown became right. That was the Grant Williams game for Christian Brown where he's just huge. Like the game Sevens, there's always the random. It's the buddy heel. Yeah, you always see those. That would have been a fun one to predict for a fanduel bet. Rosillo, you got two pods this week and then I will see you live on Sunday night, which will not be as fun as this one. Our guy Steph Curry came through. Good to see you my friend. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Gahao and Eduardo. Thanks to Rosillo. Thanks to basketball for giving us two game Sevens over the weekend. We thought we might get zero. I will be back on Tuesday. Don't forget huge rewatchables coming on Monday. Get ready. You can follow all the clips and videos from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel and I will see you on Tuesday. Must be 21 plus in President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + in President D.C. gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplianma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York this episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. Every basketball team that's still alive in the playoffs has one thing in common. Their key trades and signings throughout the season paid off, giving each team the talent needed to make a run at the championship. With a small business, your success directly depends on the new talent you add to your team. And a great place to find that talent is LinkedIn. They know hiring is a big deal for small businesses, not only because small businesses are wearing so many hats, but also because every hire is crucial for a growing company. That's why LinkedIn pairs you with the best candidates, using data you won't find anywhere else. From unique skills and interests to the connections you have in common, LinkedIn also lets you go beyond candidates who are actively applying in a given week. 171 million LinkedIn members aren't actively seeking jobs, but they are open to new opportunities. That's a big pool to miss out on. So find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com Simmons that's LinkedIn.com Simmons to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. What do I look forward to every NBA playoff season? Well, I'm always hoping the Celtics do well. I'm always hoping we have great storylines, great games, great matchups, great games. Sevens. I just hope for good basketball. But the NBA playoffs are even better with Michelobotra the official beer partner of the NBA. Plus, they're getting fans closer to the game with a chance to win courtside tickets and more. Enter now at michelobotra.com courtside Michelob Ultra Superior Access Courtside 2024-25 sweepstakes. No purchase necessary. Open to US residents 21 or older. Ends on July 1, 2025. Multiple entry periods. Visit michelobutra.com SuperiorAccess Courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and official rules. Message and data rates may apply. Void where prohibited.