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The Bill Simmons Podcast
The Celtics Blow It Up and More Predraft Story Lines With Chris Mannix
01:20:19
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- [00:00]
Bill Simmons
This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Cracking open a cold one on a hot summer day is one of the best feelings, but it's even better when it feels like you earned it. Like in a friendly little competition. It's always better when there's something worth playing for. And Michelob Ultra, a superior light beer is a pretty great prize. I would, I mean, I would be all tennis for Michelob Ultras, because that's what I do all summer. Because tennis is an actual sport, unlike pickleball. So tennis, doubles, singles, whatever. Let's play for an ultra. Fill your fridge with Michelob Ultra this summer@doordash.com Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2025 Anheuser Busch. Michelob Ultra Light Beer, St. Louis, Missouri. The Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by State Farm. We are also presented by by the Ringer Podcast Network where you can find a new episode of the Rewatchables Die Hard With a Vengeance as part of New York City Month. It was me and Van Lathan and Chris Ryan. It was a lot of fun, a lot of time talking about this movie trope, especially with John McClane, where somebody saves a lot of people twice and yet nobody believes in them and they're still disparaged by their bosses and they don't get a movie made about their life. They don't get to be on a TV show. None of that stuff. It's just. It's like it never happened. John McClain, probably the best example of that. Anyway, we dove into that and a lot of subplots with the. With the movie as well. We got one more New York City movie coming next Monday, and you can watch all those on Spotify as a video podcast. You watch on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel however you want them. On this podcast, Chris Mannix and I are going to break down the funeral of the 2024 Celtics and a bunch of other stuff heading into the NBA draft on Wednesday night after the NBA draft, after round one, I am going to be there with Jay, Kyle Mann and Joe House, and we're going to be reacting. And Joe House, he has got the sixth pick in the draft. I don't know if we're getting drunk, House, but we're definitely getting at least buzzed House. We'll see what happens, but we'll be ready to go on right after the draft. Can't wait. One of my favorite days of the year. I don't know why they moved it from Thursday to Wednesday, but it's fine. We adjust. Now we got round two on Thursdays. It'll be fun. Anyway, Chris Mannix next, we're going to take a break. We're going to bring in our friends from Pearl Jam, and then we're off. This episode is presented by State Farm. It's no secret that great teams need great teammates. I've been saying this for years. And when it comes to insurance, State Farm is there to help you find the right coverage for your home car and more. Whether you need an in person or digital assist, they're ready. When Life hits you with a full court press, get a game plan that helps fit your life. Talk to State Farm today. State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. God, wait. Change on me, man.
- [03:24]
Chris Mannix
All right.
- [03:24]
Bill Simmons
It's been a while. Chris Mannix is here. We're taping this little after 4:30 Pacific time in the afternoon. Was kind of waiting for stuff to happen today. We had the Drew Holiday trade last night and then Kristaps Porzingis sent to Atlanta today. Chris Mannix, the 2024 Celtics funeral is here. They lopped off miraculously $28 million in two trades. They got under the second apron, which doesn't just save them almost 200 million in luxury tax, but also has all these other positive roster benefits. There still might be another trade because I think both of us feel like there might be a Sam Houser, something. They want to bring back Luke Cornette, they want to potentially bring back Al Horford. So there's some other stuff happening. But did you think it was going to be this simple for the Celtics to cut that much money when you have to take contracts back in trades and somehow Simon's $5 million less than Jrue Holiday and then Niang is 22 million less than Porzingis. This was a borderline miracle.
- [04:31]
Chris Mannix
I thought they made some great deals and I thought they found the exact right partners to deal with. Like you might think, like, hey, what does Portland need jrue Holiday for? Like, they're not good. But Portland is trying to build this defensive identity. And Portland clearly had no interest in giving Anthony Simons any kind of money after this season. They did that once. They weren't going to do it again. So really what the Blazers are doing with Holidays, taking the two years left on his deal, getting him on a, like a, basically a three year deal for a guy like that. They can live with that. And look, the Celtics can just take this flyer on Simons, let him shoot 500 threes next year and walk away from him. Maybe shows them something. Maybe he wants to be there, maybe it clicks. But they can just walk away from that. Atlanta, they're another perfect partner. Like they were looking to do. They didn't really want to just blow the whole thing up and, and trade away Trey and reboot that whole thing. That didn't. I never got the vibe from them that that was kind of what they were looking for over the last few weeks. You know, Porzingis at his best looks like a really good fit playing opposite Trey Young and like contract year Chris S. Porzingis is going to ball out. Like the last time we saw contract year ish Porzingis was in Washington and he put up huge numbers there. I think you're going to get the very best of Chris Esports. So I look, the circumstances suck. The Celtics are not going to be good next year. You know, probably be lucky to fight for. I mean, I guess the Eastern Conference. Anything is possible, but they're probably a play in type of team. But I thought they did really well given the circumstances because they found the two teams out there that needed exactly what they had.
- [06:17]
Bill Simmons
Well, I'm going to reach into my zag bag. I have multiple zags for everything you just said. Okay, first of all, I'm not sure the Celtics are going to be that bad next year in this weird Eastern Conference. Is it. Am I just. Is it the Celtics fan side of me just kicking in? I was looking at the roster and I'm like, man, Holiday in the, in the playoffs and in the Knicks areas I thought looked pretty rough. That was a team that I think four years ago. I was talking to my dad about this yesterday because we dad was visiting. We were like four years ago. Holiday against Brunson, Holiday guarding towns. You could have thrown Holiday on basically any Knick and he would have been hugely impactful. And he just wasn't in the Knick series. I was a little nervous about him going going forward. You flip him into Simons who fills this scoring void that they clearly need with Tatum, who I think, you know, Portland was pretty good down the stretch last year and he wasn't. Not a piece of that, you know. So I just, I'm not willing to go play in yet with them and I don't think they're wired that way. You have a new owner. I don't think he's going to be like, cool, let's go 35 and 47. Like you don't think Jalen Brown is going to be going, hey, look at, look at the east. Indiana is now with this Hallburn situation, Knicks new coach, who knows? Like, you go on through and maybe Jalen Brown's like, this is my time now. I can carry us. I don't know. I'm not, I'm, I, I think all bets are off with the 20, 25, 26 Celtics, including more trades and them just gutting shit.
- [07:53]
Chris Mannix
So what, let's dig into that a little bit. Like, I, I, I love the lens that Brad Stevens is viewing this through. Like, like you might be right. Like, Jaylen Brown is probably a lock for an all NBA team, assuming he meets the criteria next year. He's, I think he's going to be great. You know, Simons is going to score. Like, they've got dark white's going to be dark white. They've got pieces there, but they're not a championship team. Like both, both get on board. Like, so I think what the Celtics probably look at and are saying like, all right, we can, you know, bring the band back, pay the luxury tax penalties, maybe, maybe slide under the second apron. Who knows? Whatever they, they may do and are we going to be happy with like this second round playoff exit? Like, is that a victory for them? Like, to me this is all setting up an aggressive summer in summer of the 20s, 20, 26, when they can lose these repeater tax penalties, they can be under the second apron, maybe even under the first apron if they make a, a few deals. I think they're setting themselves up for that 26, 27 season.
- [08:53]
Bill Simmons
Well, you can't hit that, you can't hit that point hard enough though because it's not just the money. It's all this weird roster shit that comes with being over the second apron and being a repeater. Like it actually really does hurt your ro multiple years and you have to get under it.
- [09:08]
Chris Mannix
So they did, they did. I, I, I applaud them for that. Like, I don't, I don't care about a second like making the playoffs as a 4 seed and being feisty against the Knicks in the second round. I don't care about that. I don't think Brad Stevens cares about that either. Like this, this to me, all these deals scream like, let's just get through next year, let's take the gap year and then let's have flexibility. Like we can go into 26, 27 with still arguably one of the top five two man duos in the NBA in Tatum and Brown. Like, that can be the core. Derrick White is still under contract. He can be part of the core. Like they, they're giving Themselves room to operate in the summer of 2026. And all they're doing really is sacrificing, you know, whatever next year is going to look like. I mean, look, I did think Porzingis was kind of interesting to move off him to him to be the first guy or one of the first guys you move off because he, he loves it in Boston. He loves his role in Boston. He loves playing there. Everything about being a Celtic. Like, could you have convinced Porzingis next summer to sign for a lesser number? Maybe, maybe to be part of what they were doing there? Maybe you could have convinced him. Hell, maybe you can still convince him to do that if you. You have some room to operate in a summer.
- [10:18]
Bill Simmons
How do we know he's not just moving to Atlanta for nine months and coming back?
- [10:22]
Chris Mannix
He might. Or he can sign with the Wizards again for the Gargantuan on a cap space.
- [10:26]
Bill Simmons
They're a hundred million dollars a year.
- [10:28]
Chris Mannix
Exactly. So that was kind of interesting to me that they, they moved off him as quickly as they did. But everything else, like, I get it like this. There'll be a feisty, fun team next year. I think Simon's gonna have some great moments team. Like he's, he's gonna put up like 40 point games at some point with them, but they're not gonna be good.
- [10:47]
Bill Simmons
I can't wait to talk about Simons. But there's. So you said something interesting there. You said this allows them to be really aggressive in the summer of 2026. I don't disagree. What if it allows them to be really aggressive in January or February of 2026? Because the hidden piece of this, now they have Niang who's. I think he's expiring after this year. Right. And then Simon, same thing. You put those together. I'm at 35 million with those two guys, right. I am now in the mix in a bunch of different ways now. Right. What if the Celtics are better than they thought? What if Tatum's rehab is way ahead and they feel like he can come back and mar. Like, I just think they wanted malleability with the roster and with Drew, which, you know, I. If you do the on paper thing with the Drew Simons trade, you'd be like, whoa, Boston got a younger player and an expiring whose arrows still may be pointing up a tiny bit. Drew's arrow pointing down. That's not why Portland did the deal. I mean, Drew is like, you saw it and you were, you were covering the Celts a little bit last year. Like The Drew is like one of the most beloved behind the scenes teammates in Milwaukee. In, in, in Boston. Like just. He was in Boston for two years and I think he goes down. Him and Horford, I think are going to go down as hall of Fame. Just everybody in the organization raving about people as people. If you're Portland, you have this defensive identity you're building, but more importantly, you're bringing in like an adult, an awesome guy, a role model, a leader, like, just everything you're looking for if you're a younger team. And you have to factor that in with the trade. Even if he was slipping a little bit last year, the stuff he brings, like, think about Horford just the last few years of his career where it's like, I don't know, he's now almost 40, still doing it. Like, Holliday might be able to be that guy for three, four more years, but it's the off the court stuff that I think, you know, they, that's just. You need that shit. Nobody's signing to go play in Portland. So anyway, I, I really like that trade for both teams. You mentioned the Simons piece, like, and obviously the west coast league pass. I've watched my share of Portland. I have a lot of Scoot Henderson stock. Simons will just go nuts.
- [13:02]
Chris Mannix
You have a lot of Scoot Henderson stock.
- [13:04]
Bill Simmons
Me and Marcillo, we have most of it. We cornered the market.
- [13:07]
Chris Mannix
I respect, I respected your Neesmith island stock. I don't know if that we had.
- [13:10]
Bill Simmons
That we bought invested in Cam Whitmore island, okay? But Simons will just get super hot. And you look at this. This is why I was talking back before about like, I don't know if the Celtics are gonna be that bad. You Pritchard and Simons out there, those are like two of the better heat check guards in the league. You have Jalen, who's still a top 20 guy. You might have rebounding. You're gonna have a good coach. You have this philosophy of just gunning up threes. They're gonna be way worse defensively. Porzingis played half the year last year and then was a, you know, a corpse in the playoffs because he wasn't healthy. I don't know, like, I don't know how much worse. The Tatum piece is the piece that's the disaster. But if you talk about the rest of it, like, they might be all right. They might be an overachiever. I don't know. I'm prepared for anything.
- [13:54]
Chris Mannix
I'm prepared for a top five team potentially. If everybody Stays healthy and everything goes right for them. But again, that doesn't. It doesn't get you anywhere. Like the. What I liked about it.
- [14:06]
Bill Simmons
The thing is, can they be fun, though? I think is what matters. Cause if you're doing basically a gap year and you're resetting it, you can't. You have the Celtics run where the fans have just watched a really awesome team for eight years in a row, and you can't just be like, yep, we don't care about this year. Like, I still feel like they care a little bit about this year. Right.
- [14:26]
Chris Mannix
Yeah.
- [14:26]
Bill Simmons
Not to win a title, but just to be entertaining.
- [14:29]
Chris Mannix
At least I think we're looking at it. We're. We're kind of. We kind of. You and I care about two different things. One. Well, you care more than I do about them being fun next year. Like, I. I don't care.
- [14:37]
Bill Simmons
Fun and malleable are the two words I would use. I want them to have malleable roster and actually not be a disaster.
- [14:43]
Chris Mannix
Malleable is fine. I mean, they're not. With Jaylen Brown and the talent they have, they're never going to be a disaster. And the conference that they're in, that gets weaker by literally the day with the Halberton injury, like, it's going to be impossible for them not to compete. Although, you know, God knows what the Wizards look like. They might be. Actually be better next year.
- [15:01]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [15:01]
Chris Mannix
I. I just. I. I just don't. I don't care. Like, I. I think what. I know what Brad's doing is saying, like, look, Tatum, put whatever timeline you want on him, but I'm skeptical Tatum comes back at all. Like, I don't see the point to it. Like, there's no way people saying, like, eight, nine months. Like, in what world? Like, why. Why would you drop him back into the lineup post All Star break when you might be in a playoff race? That's just a recipe for disaster. That makes no sense. Like, they. They have their pick in 2026. Like, that has to be factored in.
- [15:29]
Bill Simmons
Chris, don't ruin this for me.
- [15:31]
Chris Mannix
I'm just saying, man, like, they've got.
- [15:32]
Bill Simmons
Their pick in 2026.
- [15:34]
Chris Mannix
Let them. I mean, Boston fans can accept a gap year where they stink out the joint, maybe even wind up with a lottery pick if they're really. If they go the other way and are really bad. And all of a sudden, in the summer, 2026, you got Tatum coming back. You've got Brown still there. You've got white still there. You've got the genius of Brad Stevens. And we, I think he's, he's really good at this job. He was a really good coach and he's also a really good general manager. You got that all in play to shake up the roster one more time in the summer of 2026. I, I, I'm fine with that. I, I don't care if they win 30 games next year. I really don't.
- [16:07]
Bill Simmons
I think that's exercise then Chris Mannix. Here's a Celtics team that's going to have Jalen Brown, Derek White, Peyton Pritchard, Anthony Simons, Niang. I'm going to throw in Horford and Cornet Little, Little Cater.
- [16:24]
Chris Mannix
You think? Hold on, hold on. You, you think Horford's back?
- [16:27]
Bill Simmons
I do. I think he finishes his career in Boston. I think it's hit that point with him. Why are you skeptical?
- [16:32]
Chris Mannix
I think the, I think the market could be really interesting for Horford if he, look, maybe he wants the Stags, I don't know.
- [16:37]
Bill Simmons
He's made $300 million.
- [16:39]
Chris Mannix
I'm with you, but when I, you know, in the last few weeks, whenever I have off season conversations with, with GMs, like a lot of it's like Al Horford would fit great there. Like the Knicks get bounced out. Oh, Al Horford would fit pretty good in New York, San Antonio, sitting down there with Wembanyama. Wouldn't you love to have a guy like Al Orford in your rotation as well? This probably like a third of the league given what Al still has left and what Al salary demands are going to be. That theoretically would be interested.
- [17:05]
Bill Simmons
So you're saying like the mid level, like the 7 million or even higher?
- [17:09]
Chris Mannix
Higher. Maybe 10, 12. I don't know. Like what do you make 10 last year? Two years. 20 was his last contract. I could see him in play.
- [17:16]
Bill Simmons
Like, yeah, I am deep, deep down, you're triggering me now because I'm, deep down I am a little worried about this because the team I'm worried about is the Lakers. That's obvious. Obvious. Al Horford fit where they could just kind of grab him. I mean there's some other ones, but I don't know. He won a title in Boston. He's beloved in Boston. And it's like you don't, he doesn't have to chase a ring because he won a ring. Right. And if you're talking about difference between they could pay him two and a half million versus seven, whatever it is like you're going to uproot. I don't know. We'll see, but I don't think the team's going to be. I don't know. Let's go through. I'm going to read you everybody in the east, and you tell me what teams are definitively better than the Celtics next year. Let's say there are no more trades and they keep Hauser. So we would say Cleveland. Yes.
- [18:06]
Chris Mannix
Yes.
- [18:07]
Bill Simmons
We would say the Knicks. Yes.
- [18:10]
Chris Mannix
Yes.
- [18:11]
Bill Simmons
And Orlando. Yes.
- [18:13]
Chris Mannix
Love the Orlando trade. Yeah.
- [18:15]
Bill Simmons
Those three, I think we can both agree, have better rosters and a chance for regular season success than the Celtics next year.
- [18:23]
Chris Mannix
I would agree. Yeah.
- [18:26]
Bill Simmons
Detroit.
- [18:28]
Chris Mannix
Yeah.
- [18:29]
Bill Simmons
I think I would agree. All right, so there's four. Then all of a sudden I'm in Indiana with no Halberton, Giannis with no teammates. Miami. I don't even know what they're trying to do. The Hawks might be the biggest threat for the five seed out of anybody. We're listening. Toronto. Give me a break. Philadelphia. I have no idea how many Embiid games I'm getting. I feel like the five seed is. Is wide open in the east, which is more of a reflection of how. How gutted the east is.
- [19:03]
Chris Mannix
Yeah. And I look at Philly, and we'll see what happens on draft night. I think there's a lot of potential moves in play in the next 24 hours for Philadelphia. If Embiid's healthy, they're better than Boston. Atlanta, if Porzingis can give you.
- [19:19]
Bill Simmons
Give me an. If Embiid's healthy.
- [19:20]
Chris Mannix
I'm just saying. I'm giving.
- [19:21]
Bill Simmons
What are you doing?
- [19:22]
Chris Mannix
I'm giving. Giving. I'm giving him benefit of the doubt here on this one. If he. If Embiid's healthy, they're better than Boss.
- [19:29]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [19:30]
Chris Mannix
Atlanta, if porzingis gives us 65 plus games, they're better than Boston. So we're kind of in that same range there where I could see them anywhere from like 8 to 5, right?
- [19:39]
Bill Simmons
So they're getting Porzingis and Jalen Johnson back.
- [19:43]
Chris Mannix
I love Jalen Johnson. I watch all the stock on Jalen Johnson.
- [19:47]
Bill Simmons
If you and I were the Atlantic conciliaries, I would be like, fucking go for it, man. You. You still have a $25 million trade exception that expires on July 7th. Like, go for it. Go get Norman Powell from the Clippers. Like, let's go. Like, go get. Go get a real player who can play in a playoff series. You got Jalen Johnson coming back, so it's almost like you're signing a free agent. Reese Sachet is a year older. You have Porzingis basically replacing Capella, but you also have a congru. I like their team. I like their team. Last year I felt like if Jalen Johnson didn't get hurt last year, I thought that would have been a really interesting round one team.
- [20:24]
Chris Mannix
I think Jaylen Johnson, Jalen Johnson to me is one of and amongst NBA people. He's not underrated, but like publicly he's criminally underrated. Like every time I watch that guy play on TV or in person, he is outstanding and you know, if he's healthy, he's going to be an all star next year. Yeah, I mean Porzingis, Johnson, Trey, not a ton of defense with that group, but I with that $25 million exception, I think going for it is the right play and I think that's their mindset too. Like the Porzingis trade to me signals that Atlanta is going to try in this conference, which is the right thing to do given what's sitting up at the top.
- [21:03]
Bill Simmons
Well, they also have the 13th pick in the draft that they got from Sacramento. So they still have the possibility of maybe there's one more move where they move backwards and pick up a veteran. I tried to talk myself into Atlanta saying yes to houser and the 28th for the number 13th, but I don't think that's enough. But I love Sam Houser and I actually think that would be a good trade for Atlanta. So maybe consider that one. Atlanta.
- [21:27]
Chris Mannix
The market is robust right now for Sam Houser from what I've heard. I mean he's starting that four year 45 million. Yeah, yeah. I mean he's, he's, he's a 40 plus percent three point shooter who's been on a championship team, who's got a very manageable contract. Like there's a lot of teams that could use guys like that. And I don't know if Baylor Shireman is Sam Houser 2.0 or can replicate anything he does, but I know he's a lot cheaper and I think that's going to be the priority for the Celtics. With that particular spot in the lineup.
- [21:54]
Bill Simmons
I feel like you might get aggregated on hoopside now. Mannix Hauser trade market robust.
- [22:03]
Chris Mannix
Like a hot take though it feels like a very lukewarm take that the 26 year old Elite 3 point shooter maybe can't guard that many guys but can make a shot at 40% from.
- [22:14]
Bill Simmons
Three that's well and it's always as like the sneakiest. Wait, haven't you watched tape? Stop thinking you can challenge him and post up, dudes, because he's actually like a half decent defender and one on one on an island, he's actually okay. I think the Pistons make a lot of sense for him, and I'm interested to see what they do because that's, you know, when we talk about the wide open east, if I'm the Pistons, I'm really looking at, hey, we might be one move. I would have. I would have kicked the tires hard on Durant. We talked about that the other day on this podcast. Like, I just would have. I have Cade, who's one of the best 15 guys in the league. I have a young team. I have an identity. Like, what can I improve that Tobias Harris spot and go up a level? Yeah. From a Celtics standpoint, the Jalen part will be really fun. The. The Pritchard Simons together as a bet. Like the Pritchard Simons, Derek White, I don't know. I'm in on it. I can't believe they're able to pull out those two trades. I thought Porzingis was going to be impossible. Just. I just thought they were going to have to take a giant contract back because he's making 30. Like, they needed. They basically needed the Nets to be involved somehow. And then the Nets were like, whoa, Terrence Mann and another pick. We already have four. All right, cool.
- [23:33]
Chris Mannix
They did it. Let me see.
- [23:34]
Bill Simmons
What are they doing?
- [23:35]
Chris Mannix
Yeah. What do you think the Nets are up to here? Because they're not accruing all these draft picks to just draft guys. Like, that's when. When. When I was at the draft lottery, talking to people in Brooklyn and people that talk to Brooklyn, the most deflated team not to move up was the Brooklyn Nets, because the Brooklyn Nets believe that a top four pick was going to put them in play for one of the bigger names out there. Now, obviously, Giannis was at the very top of their list. No idea if Giannis. What's going to happen or how that's going to play out in the next few weeks, but all I know is that the nets acquiring 1/6 of Thursday's draft is not so they can draft five guys. Like, that's just not. That's not what Sean Marks is looking to do here. I'm very curious to see what the next 24 hours look like for Brooklyn if they. If they have something else in mind or another deal in mind to. To use these picks for.
- [24:30]
Bill Simmons
Well, we think San Antonio is staying at 2 with Harper. I think that's locked in Philly. I'm prepared for literally anything you could give me any scenario, and I would sign up for it. So if you told me Darrell feels like I. My model says we should take Ace Bailey. We don't even need to take. Take him at three. He's going to be there at seven. We'll trade back with Brooklyn or trade back to eight. He's still going to be there at eight. And we'll pick up all these other picks, and then I'll do weird Daryl stuff with them. You could talk me into that. You could talk me into anything with Charlotte, because I don't think.
- [25:02]
Chris Mannix
Can I throw something about Charlotte. So Charlotte. So this Ace Bailey thing is wild. Like, Ace Bailey kind of being navigated by an agent that doesn't have a ton of experience. Not working out for anybody. Like, I think my. My theory on this, on Ace Bailey, is that right or wrong, he or his team believe there's a team out there that he wants to go to that is going to trade up with Charlotte. Like, he's not working out for Philadelphia. There's got to be a reason for that. He's not. He's not going to Utah. I don't think he wants to go to Charlotte. I think that Ace Bailey thinks that there's a team that's going to leap up, get that Charlotte pick, and he wants to play there. That's my theory on Ace Bailey.
- [25:44]
Bill Simmons
That my team like the Brooklyn Nets, Maybe.
- [25:48]
Chris Mannix
Maybe.
- [25:49]
Bill Simmons
So Charlotte moves back four spots, they pick up a bunch of extra assets.
- [25:55]
Chris Mannix
Which they need more than that fourth pick, I would argue.
- [25:58]
Bill Simmons
Right? Yeah. Cause especially if. If Edgecomb goes third, which I think is the guy Charlotte wants. Trying to decode. Although what's bullshit, but what's actually real. And it really does seem like that's the guy they want. And maybe they. They're like, fuck it, then we'll move back, um, for Brooklyn. I feel like Ace Bailey's gonna drop to eight, and I wouldn't trade up to get him, because I think. I think when you put the stink out like that. We saw it work with Sar last year. Like, Sar did this to Atlanta. He's like, I'm. Nope. Not even going. If you take. If you take me. Buyer beware. This does work. When you have a pick that high and you have. Usually if you're picking that high, your team's probably a mess to begin with. Right? And it's like, oh, so who'd you take with this prime lottery pick? We took the guy who literally wouldn't fly to come work out with us, who refuses to take our Calls and won't send us his medical records until the league mandated that he had to. That's our first pick. High fives, everybody. Like, nobody wants to do that. So this actually works. I think it's. It's smart. But on the other hand, it's possible that Ace Bailey is just a train wreck. The stuff of the representation is pretty alarming. Like, there's. And there's a lot of stories that have been, I think, being passed around, and people aren't really talking about them publicly, but there's just. It just seems like a train wreck.
- [27:22]
Chris Mannix
It's not like this is being. It's not like this is being orchestrated by like a Bill Duffy or some.
- [27:31]
Bill Simmons
Rich Paul. Rich Paul.
- [27:32]
Chris Mannix
Rich Paul.
- [27:33]
Bill Simmons
I'm doing the chessboard here.
- [27:35]
Chris Mannix
It doesn't feel like chessboard type stuff.
- [27:40]
Bill Simmons
Checkers. What board game would you do?
- [27:42]
Chris Mannix
Shoots and ladders. I don't know, like, whatever.
- [27:44]
Bill Simmons
I mean, they're playing shoots and ladders.
- [27:47]
Chris Mannix
It just feels very, very, very uneasy. The only thing I can think of, though, is that they. Somebody's trying to get to four, and they like the team that's trying to get to four. That goes again. I think if he's at eight, Brooklyn's gonna take him. Like, all the stuff that's going on with Ace Bailey, he's a shot maker. Like, I don't know if he flames out, he doesn't have the mindset for it or the complete skill set to become a great player, but that guy can get you a bucket. Like, that's why those weird Durant comparisons, I can kind of see it. I can kind of see shades of it. And if he's sitting there at 8, I think Brooklyn's going to take him. I also don't think he gets past Washington. I think Washington would take a flyer on a guy like that with a high upside at number six. So I. I think if at four is when this. Well, three, it's going to get interesting. Cause I don't know what Philadelphia's going to do either. But I think at 4, it gets real interesting with respect to Ace Bailey.
- [28:38]
Bill Simmons
If Washington doesn't take them at 6, I'm going to be disappointed.
- [28:42]
Chris Mannix
Yeah.
- [28:43]
Bill Simmons
I don't know if it's the right pick for them. And it seems like the kind of guy they've. The type of. Of. Of kind of polarizing poor they've had in the past, where it's usually like, oh, man, that didn't work out. Brooklyn makes the most sense if that's his end game. But I think this is a great draft. I've really enjoyed it. I've enjoyed doing the research for it. I think it's really unpredictable. You have Cooper at the top. It's so funny. He goes and works out for Dallas, and then the stories are going, cooper flag. He knocked everyone's socks off. People were blown away. It's like, we can stop doing that with the Cooper Flag workouts. We get it. He blows everyone away. He's amazing. He's fucking, you know, juggling three balls, beating everybody in drills. Like, we get it. He's amazing. And then two. Harper is locked in. But then we get to three, and it's like, I'm prepared for anything. Tradebacks. There's three guys. I wouldn't be surprised if they took. I wouldn't be surprised if. If Daryl took Ace. I know you wouldn't either if he was just like, yeah, Ace has the highest upside. I think he can be a superstar. Edgecomb, we think he's Dwyane Wade. He just needs to figure out how to finish a layup knipple. Perfect for the team we have. We think embiId's gonna play 70 games. He fits in. He does this, this, and this. It's a. It's an awesome draft. Let's take a quick break, and I have some more. Some more trade stuff to throw at you. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. Summer is here, and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. What do I mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parmesan delivered. I love chicken parm. A day in the sun. No. A bottle of rum. Yes. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now for alcohol. You must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. So if you were the Atlanta Hawks, are you building this around Trae Young? You feel good about that?
- [30:49]
Chris Mannix
I don't feel good about it. I don't think that Trae Young can be the number one guy on a championship team. I do think Trae Young, as the number one guy in a conference that stinks, can be the number one guy on an Eastern Conference championship team. I think they're in play next year.
- [31:10]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [31:12]
Chris Mannix
So I think that's the mindset that Atlanta probably has going into this season, because it's not. Look, if they want to blow this whole thing up, they can do it next summer. You know, porzingis is coming off the books. Young will have one less year left in his contract. You'll still have Jalen Johnson to build around long term. Like, this is kind of the perfect year to sort of go for it. See what you can get with that $25 million trade exception. See if there's some guy that fits, you know, either in the backcourt alongside Trey Force, bottom, I don't know, wherever they think is the right fit and go for it this year. And if it doesn't work, screw it, then next year there'll be. There'll be a market for Trey Young next year somebody's going to want to get him. Like, I mean, nobody wants to sign with Washington. Maybe they take him on. Like, they, they absorb his contract into, into their books. Like, there's a lot of things you can do if you're Atlanta beyond this season like this. No matter what, they're not going to win a title. Like, I think we both can agree on that with, with this group, but you can.
- [32:10]
Bill Simmons
After Indiana, I'm not willing to agree on anything. Indiana won 15 playoff games.
- [32:15]
Chris Mannix
I know Indiana plays with just a. I don't know if you get guys around Trey Young that are tough like that. N. Smith, Siakam, you know, Nemhard. I don't see those guys in Atlanta. I don't see them. Look at their depth chart. I don't see a ton of those guys. I don't. I look. But I think in this, this landscape, I mean, you can do it, you can make a run with this group, but if you can, great. Maybe you see like, hey, we just one piece away or. And then we'll add that guy in the off season or, you know, you go into next summer and you blow the whole damn thing up. You trade Trey Young and you rebuild around a really good player, an all star in Jalen Johnson. I think it's all upside for the Hawks.
- [32:49]
Bill Simmons
We see it the same way. I think this is the official Trae Young audition year. What do you got here? We put. We put a bunch of guys with blank who can, who can protect you on defense. We have a little pick and pop threat now with Porzingis. We also have a real center who can protect the rim. I don't know what they're going to do with 13th pick and that trade exception, but we assume there's one more really good guy coming. And it's like, let's see, we've created the type of team, I think what they have a chance to do is what we watched Indiana do With Hal Burton, where they built a roster around a guy's specific skill set. In Trey's case, they can protect them on defense, and they are surrounding him with shooters in length, which is kind of what you'd have to do. And at Indiana, it's. I. I'm. I'm still. You didn't go to game seven, did you?
- [33:42]
Chris Mannix
I did, yeah.
- [33:43]
Bill Simmons
Oh, yeah. I'm still reeling from just that whole thing. And. And then also that, you know, to come that close to winning a title, to have the first five minutes the way it went, and then to realize, much like Celtic fans last month, where it's like, not only did we just get knocked out of the playoffs, but next year is now gone, too. Like, it's. It was just so much. I'm still digesting it. I can't even imagine what it was like to be there.
- [34:08]
Chris Mannix
I. I've. I think that Oklahoma City has emerged as a top three crowd in the NBA. I think Boston's better. I think New York's better, but I think Oklahoma City's right there. You make an argument for somebody else, fine. But I think Oklahoma City is right there in that three spot. I've never experienced a crowd that amped up, just cut it, go completely silent the way that it did. Everybody in that moment knew exactly what happened based on how he moved, how he responded. I mean, players from both sides, crowd, media, everybody knew. I've never seen a. A reaction quite like that when you had a crowd amped up to an 11, just going nuts and then have that happen, and everything just go completely silence. It was. It was surreal, man, being there and seeing him go down like that, and then his reaction, he's banging his hand on the floor, and then you watching the replay on the monitor, and you could see the. The calf buckle. So you know right away exactly what it is. That was tough. That was real tough to watch in. In real time.
- [35:10]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I was thinking about it because we podcasted after that night, and I was thinking after about some stuff I wish I had thought of when we were doing it live, because I was still kind of gathering. It was just so incredible of a basketball situation and a life situation. It was hard to wrap your head around. I was thinking about. I think it was my first year I was writing for ESPN or the second year, so it was maybe 2002 playoffs when Dirk got hurt, and everybody was like, he's got to suck it. He was hurt in the playoffs. I think it was against Sacramento, and it was so long ago. I can't even remember. But he was hurt. And Cuban didn't want to bring him back in. He wanted him to play hurt. And his whole thing was like, dirk's going to be our guy for a long time. It's not worth it to play him in this playoff series. And I remember writing, I think I wrote in my piece, like, that's crazy. If you have a chance for the title, you have to go it. And as I've gotten older, I feel completely differently about it. Like, you know, obviously he was hurt. Obviously they shot him up so he could play, right? And then you go out and you tell the, you tell the person, hey, man, you know, be careful. Don't. You're. You're injured. Just be careful how you do this. But what happens, you hit a couple threes, the adrenaline's rising. You know, he's going in a timeout, and you just kind of forget you're hurt. But he was hurt and then he made it worse. And now they really screwed up their team. And I don't know, just that Cuban Dirk decision. I was thinking about that, about, do you play him? If you play him, are you more careful? And Halliburton's like, I have no regrets. It was game seven. We had a chance to win the title. But I don't know, something still doesn't sit right with it with me.
- [36:56]
Chris Mannix
I agree. It's like that old, that old parable where the guy drowns and he blames God for, you know, for not saving him. It's like we have, we haven't. We have a lot of evidence over the last five years that show that these types of calf injuries lead to a catastrophic injury, like an Achilles tear. The Durant situation, I think Dame's injury was kind of some of that. Him coming back from, you know, deep vein thrombosis and being thrust right back into a high pressure, high octane situation. Like, we've got the evidence, it's out there. It's. You just point to it and say, this is the kind of stuff that not only can happen, but, but does happen at a frequently alarming weight rate. And I don't know what you tell, like, like Rick Carlisle, you know, I was at all those games and all the pregame stuff, and Rick Carlisle, every single pregame was like, we're watching him, we're watching him, we're watching him. So obviously they're probably. And even Halliburton, I think after game five, maybe, like somebody asked him, like, have you been told that there's not a high risk of injuries. Like, no, I have not been told that. Like, he knew that something was possible, you know, there. But I don't know how you tell a guy in game seven of the NBA Finals whether or not he made three of the first five shots that he took. Three threes. I don't know how you tell a guy going in, like, go at 80%. Like, it's impossible to tell a guy.
- [38:16]
Bill Simmons
Just be. Yeah, just be careful. Be careful, Be careful. You kind of can't do that because he was careful in game six. He wasn't that good.
- [38:22]
Chris Mannix
Unless you're gonna, you know, camp him out in the corner and have him be a decoy. Then this. This was always a potential.
- [38:30]
Bill Simmons
Maybe that's what they should have done.
- [38:32]
Chris Mannix
I mean, they kind of did that. They kind of did that for. Was it game six? For a lot of game six? Yeah, I think it was. He was kind of hanging on the perimeter, just lingering around. Yeah, maybe they should have gone that route. But, like, you're never going to be able to tell a guy of that caliber. Like, hey, man, this could happen. Don't push off as hard. Don't break to the basket if you see an opening like it. It's too hard to have a guy compartmentalize that stuff.
- [38:58]
Bill Simmons
I'm still wrapping my head around it. I. I've never seen.
- [39:01]
Chris Mannix
But who do you blame? Do you?
- [39:02]
Bill Simmons
Like, like, yeah, it sound like I don't blame anybody because it's obviously his choice. He wants to play. It's no different than, like, we both love boxing and we love ufc, and people make decisions with their bodies and their heads, and we watch it over and over again. And you can't be like, you dummy, you shouldn't have played. Obviously he wanted to play. It was super risky. But I've never. I mean, to come that quote, when you think of like the two sliding doors of. This guy was on pace to be the hero of that game, and then in at the 7, 6 minute mark, whenever it was, all of a sudden he's done for a year. Like, I. I've never seen anything like that. And the Tatum thing was horrible when that happened. I mean, that was one of the more traumatic. We had two of the most traumatic NBA injuries we've ever had in the span of a month. And nobody's been able to explain this Achilles thing. I was texting with Doc about it, and I was like, nobody had these. These were old guys injuries. These are injuries. Like, my Uncle Bob started playing pickleball and he blew out his Achilles. Like, these don't happen to people in their primes. And we were saying. I was like, when you were playing, I was saying this to Doc. You just play pickup in the summer, right? You weren't doing these 365 days a year, all this training and practicing Euro steps and footwork, and maybe it's too much. Maybe they really have to reevaluate all the stuff they're doing. Doc was saying, we just played pickup every day on concrete in 100 degree weather. And then our knees went. So in the old days, the knees went. And now it feels like it's the below the knees is starting to go. And I don't think it's a coincidence that two of the best guys who still were arrow pointing up for their careers have this injury that nobody had before recently is.
- [40:48]
Chris Mannix
Is there. So I, I've texted a few medical people, you know, team trainers, whatnot, for theory. It's all theory at this point. But is there anything to the idea that maybe now more than ever, these guys are just basketball players? Like, they're, they're not.
- [41:06]
Bill Simmons
They're not the specialists.
- [41:07]
Chris Mannix
Yeah. You grow up, you know, a lot of guys you cover, back in the day, they were football players, they were, you know, hockey players. If they grew up in the Northeast, like, they were playing other sports. Nowadays, it's. It's straight basketball. Like, Cooper Flagg is actually an example. I spent the better part of a couple of weeks around him.
- [41:25]
Bill Simmons
Did he blow you away?
- [41:28]
Chris Mannix
Him personally? No. No.
- [41:30]
Bill Simmons
Okay.
- [41:30]
Chris Mannix
You know, I mean, the greatest. Like he was on the COVID of the magazine. The greatest Cooper Flag supporter is scal. Like he's out of his mind in support of this guy. He thinks he's like LeBron. Like, this is, you know, he might.
- [41:42]
Bill Simmons
Have to settle down a tad.
- [41:43]
Chris Mannix
But you do you. You put, you put together your Mount Rushmore tomorrow, like in or day one of the season. Scout's gonna have Cooper flag on the top of that, on that Mount Rushmore. But he's like, to this point, like, he grew up, you know, in first grade, second grade. He was a great football player. You know, this is why they consider a prodigy great at everything. Football, played soccer, played baseball, but just stopped after, I think, second or third grade, whenever it was, and then just focused entirely on basketball. That's what a lot of these guys. Jason Tatum, when he got to a young age, you know, got with Drew Hanlon when he was young and started working on skills. Just this. I wonder if there's anything to the singular focus on the game where you're not kind of, you know, doing other things that might protect your your, your body from these types of of injuries. Again, it's all theoretical but this kind of came up with a couple of of training people that, that I've talked to but it's worth looking into more if you're the NBA. Like having, having Kobe Terry's Achilles in the back end of his career is one thing. Having, you know, an alpha, an MVP candidate like Tatum, the star of the postseason, like Halliburton, like this is something that, that they need to look at.
- [42:47]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Kobe who is playing those 48 minute games during that stretch. Right. And he was at the end of his career and he pushed it too far and it made sense. It doesn't these, the equipment's too good, the training stuff's too good, the medicines to everything's too good for to have this injury. I don't really fully understand it and I also don't understand why it's not happening in other sports. Right. Like it's not happening in tennis. You know, it's not. I think Tiger tore his Achilles and golf. But it's just. Anyway, that was, that was quite a tangent we just did this episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. Summer is here and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. What do I mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken Parmesan delivered. A day in the sun? No. A bottle of rum. Yes. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get all Almost. Almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now for alcohol. You must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. During the season, every baseball team plays 162 games. It's a true test of endurance. It's not enough to have a hot month or two. You need sustained dominance throughout. Well, the same is true for your small business. It's not enough to have a great Q2 or even a great year. You want year over year growth that starts with better hires that'll be there for the long haul. To find Those hires, use LinkedIn. LinkedIn has strong hiring data and insights that you won't find anywhere else to help pair you with the best candidates. From unique skills and interests to the connections you have in common. Based on LinkedIn data, 72% of small businesses say that LinkedIn helps them find high quality talent. LinkedIn also lets you go beyond people who are actively applying in a given week. 171 million LinkedIn members aren't actively seeking jobs, but they are open to new opportunities. That's a big pool to miss out on. If you're not hiring with LinkedIn, find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com Simmons that's LinkedIn.com Simmons to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by the US Bank Smartly Visa Signature Card. With the US Bank Smartly Visa Signature card, you earn an unlimited 2% cash back on every purchase. That's right. You heard me. Every purchase. 2% cash back at restaurants, 2% cash back at the gym, groceries. Oh, yeah, you earn 2% back on that, too. New tires, new outfits, New York City getaway. All earned 2% cash back. Noticing a trend. So whether you're splurging on concert tickets, fueling up for your commute, or are shopping for that perfect birthday gift for the bestie, you'll be earning unlimited 2% cash back on every purchase. Visit usbank.com smartlycard to learn more. The creditor and issuer of this card is U.S. bank National Association. Pursue it to a license from Visa USA Inc. Some restrictions may apply. What players? So you're. You're obviously texting a million people and we're all sifting through the same bullshit, not knowing what's real and not real. And then anytime a trade happens, it's like, that's a trade. Like, I thought Drew was going to Dallas or Phoenix. I really did. And I would have bet on Dallas. I would have bet. I thought Dallas was like minus 200 for Drew. Home. I thought it was going to be two pieces. One gets rerouted to Brooklyn or Atlanta, wherever. And their trade exception, Boston keeps the other piece and Dallas gets Drew. Portland comes, and then it's like, oh, yeah, they've loved him the whole time. It's like, really? I didn't hear that once. Is there a player that you're hearing floated around? A name that has surprised you as we are now 24 hours away from the draft, is there somebody you're like, whoa, that guy?
- [46:40]
Chris Mannix
I don't know if it's a. Well, New Orleans is very much open for business. That Zion? Not particularly, but they're a team that is determined to shake things up. Like, could Herb Jones be available in New Orleans? I mean, that's a small name, but I think that's something interesting. Again, I don't know what Philadelphia is going to do here. Are they. Do they just sit on that draft pick and take it to try to package? It just. Is Paul George in play? You know, I. I've heard some of that over the last 24 hours or so that they could be looking to.
- [47:20]
Bill Simmons
The trade back with Paul George.
- [47:22]
Chris Mannix
Yeah. To do something there. Yeah. Those. The. The Philly stuff is what I've been most looking at. I think the Charlotte thing is the next one. I think Charlotte is very open for business at number four to move down. And I think there's a team that's going to be in play that tries to move up and. And take. And take that Charlotte spot.
- [47:43]
Bill Simmons
I'm intrigued by the Clippers, who don't seem like they have a lot going on, but also don't seem to be super happy with their roster. Just like, what. Where's the evidence they're going to be better this year than or this coming year than they were? And I thought they were right there with some of these other teams, but I also think they're going to be a year older next year. They've been quiet, which makes me suspicious. And then the team I cannot figure out for the life of me is Miami. Cause I've heard they didn't offer anything for Durant. If you talk to some different NBA team people, they're like, we heard the Miami thing was close to being done and something happened. I don't know what to believe anymore. And I don't know what Miami's up to. And, you know, usually they're star hunting right around now. And they've been quiet, too. And I don't know, are they going to zag and go the other way? I don't know.
- [48:41]
Chris Mannix
The Miami part of it, from what I heard after the deal got done, was, you know, Khalil Ware was off the table. And really the only thing that was on the table was Wiggins. Some contract filler, a little bit of draft capital. Nothing at all.
- [48:57]
Bill Simmons
What the fuck? Nothing. Which means they didn't really want him.
- [49:01]
Chris Mannix
But Bill, I don't know who besides Houston who really wanted him this offseason. I think the Clippers, you mentioned them. I think they were interested. They just don't have anything to really offer that Phoenix might be looking for San Antonio. San Antonio was clear.
- [49:17]
Bill Simmons
There was some. I don't know if the hardened tires were kicked. Oh, no, no.
- [49:27]
Chris Mannix
That. That wouldn't be. That would be bad.
- [49:30]
Bill Simmons
It didn't work. But I'll put it this way. I don't think Harden's game seven went over Great, you think? I don't think it went over great with literally anybody on the, on the Clippers. So. And, but I also don't think there's a market for him. But if we were talking about like most shocking name that you could see getting traded in the next week that isn't actually shocking, he would be on my list. I just don't know who would be trading for.
- [49:56]
Chris Mannix
I mean there was no market for him last off season and the Clippers gave him a deal that he never would have gotten anywhere else. Like that was. I never understood that deal at the time. I don't think the Clippers want to pay Norman Powell long term either. Had a great year last year, but has he plateaued as a player? Is that going to be a, if they give him money, is that going to be a contract they're trying to get off of in two years? I think they have that mindset. Just the Durant stuff. I've been writing Houston since last February because I knew from being around the Rockets how much IME liked him and how much Durant respected IME from the Brooklyn days and the USA Basketball days and how well the fit worked. Like I went down there in February, March to do something on Amen. And even then Raphael Stone was know on and off the record was like, we're not doing anything. Like we're, we're trying to see what this team looks like in the playoffs. And they got, they got their look. They got the look. Jalen Green's not the guy. Jalen Green is never going to be the guy. So now they go out and maybe it's not a round peg, round hole type of fit given the age of Durant, but I believe that Kevin Durant is still capable of being like one of the best scorers in the NBA for 65 plus games in a season. And I think given what I saw from that team in the playoffs last year, yeah, that's exactly who they need.
- [51:17]
Bill Simmons
Like especially in the play in the playoffs themselves, 100%. That's what they need.
- [51:21]
Chris Mannix
You replace, you replace Kevin Durant healthy. Kevin Durant with you swap out Jalen Green. They beat Golden State in the first round. Like I don't know how what the ceiling is after that, but they beat Golden State in the first round. I think the Rockets who are going to get real organic growth from their young guys next year, starting with Thompson, who I think is an absolute monster waiting to break out, I think they're now in play to win the Western Conference. And if I was looking at the biggest, biggest threats to Oklahoma City next year without knowing exactly what Denver's going to look like, I would say Houston's at the top of that list.
- [51:58]
Bill Simmons
We agree. And I also what's so interesting about that trade I wish I had said this Sunday when we talked about feels like they still have a trade left. They were able to keep enough assets to do another move. Like I don't think the Celtics are trading Jalen and I hope they don't. But if they did trade Jalen, weirdly Houston is still the best home for him. They'd have to put the Van Boyd thing in it to make it work. But and I think Tar Eason would have to be in it but that with all the picks they have there's a move now little reminiscent we've seen this in years like the 07 to 08 Celtics was the best example of like you do this one move and then that opens the door for the second move. Makes more sense, right? Do the Ray Allen trade now. KG trade makes more sense than it did if it was just going to be KG and Paul. I I just, I can't count out Jalen and Houston. Even though I don't want Boston or Trey Jalen, I don't think they're going to.
- [52:52]
Chris Mannix
I don't know that Houston has enough to get Boston's attention there like the, the Van Vliet contract and what else like you want to take on the Sun's picks in 27 and 29 like you want. I mean that I don't know that. How how Jalen's got to be all.
- [53:10]
Bill Simmons
The basically all the picks and Eason and Van V's contract. You're right. It probably isn't enough. But see it's enough for somebody and it keeps them in the Giannis Giannis area too in January, February, if that goes bad.
- [53:23]
Chris Mannix
I thought San Antonio was the most and I said this at the, you know, a couple of weeks ago, I thought San Antonio was the most interesting team for Jalen if, if they decided to go that direction now I think.
- [53:33]
Bill Simmons
Still are, still are.
- [53:35]
Chris Mannix
But I got the the spurs maybe just keeping their powder dry in case the Giannis thing just bursts and like they can make a play there. But if that's not on the table they can very easily put together a package that makes a lot of sense for both sides. I to bring it full circle. The boss know like I I like that. It sure seems like they're not jettisoning Jalen here like that. That I think was a thought you know, as they were trying to figure out what to do with this team moving forward. But I like that they're not dumping this guy because it's hard to get two guys like Tatum and Brown. Like, it's hard to get two guys that, you know, can win together on a championship level. And I like that they're keeping him intact, keeping him there, and presumably going to keep him as part of a two or three person core that they're going to build around in the summer of 2026. I just think that's the right move for them to make. And look, teams were calling about Jalen, several of them calling to see the availability.
- [54:34]
Bill Simmons
It was a hot market for him in white. There's no question.
- [54:37]
Chris Mannix
No question. But the Celtics were pretty firm that, that, you know, yeah, next year they suck for them. You know, it may, it may even be a lottery year, which I don't think would disappoint too many people, given that they have their pick. It may be bad. But 2026, we're back, like, you know, y' all must have forgot, like with, with, with us in, in the fall of 2026 when Tatum comes back from that injury. That's. That to me, is what their, their mindset is.
- [55:03]
Bill Simmons
You know who's not tanking? Joe Missoula, who's this absolute psycho.
- [55:07]
Chris Mannix
Oh, isn't this fascinating? I'm glad you brought that up.
- [55:09]
Bill Simmons
This would be an absolute psychology experiment. Watching him intentionally lose games and play lineups that would. There's just no way. I don't see it. That's why I think that. I think it's more likely they win 48 to 50 games than 32 to 35 games.
- [55:26]
Chris Mannix
But it may be inescapable that they're not that good, that There may be a 500 type of team. I'm fascinated to see how Joe Missoula handles mediocrity. Does he start plucking his EyeBrows after a three game losing streak?
- [55:39]
Bill Simmons
No, they're going to put him on meds. I think he's gonna have to be sedated. Like when, like, like with, with. When you have little kids and you, you put them on an airplane and you just have to make sure. Like that. Yeah. Hey, will you take this Benadryl? I need you. I need to, I need to knock you out for a second. I don't think he'll be able to handle it.
- [55:58]
Chris Mannix
I mean, he takes losses so hard. We saw that during the last couple of seasons.
- [56:03]
Bill Simmons
He might have taken a leave of absence. Maybe he just Leaves the team in January. It's like Joe's gonna go learn. Learn a next level of Muay Thai in Thailand for the next four months, and we'll bring him back in June.
- [56:14]
Chris Mannix
Just walking around challenging guys to Muay Thai fights across Europe and Africa. Like, I could. I could see that. I could see that. It will be. It'll be interesting to see how he deals with it because.
- [56:23]
Bill Simmons
Wait, can we.
- [56:24]
Chris Mannix
This would be new.
- [56:25]
Bill Simmons
Can we say one thing on Jaylen Brown?
- [56:27]
Chris Mannix
Yeah.
- [56:28]
Bill Simmons
I think it'd be a huge mistake to trade him unless it was like, for 200 cents on the dollar. And especially after, like, what the Red Sox did. Not to compare the same situation with Mookie, because that was different. They just didn't want to pay him. And they, um. I just. I want to see Brown and Tatum together. And I think Jalen's, like, really important in the city. Like, he really gives a shit about the right things. And I don't think you can lose guys like that if you don't have to. Like there. Nobody expects them to win the title next year. The salaries are going to be nuts. But they're going to be able to reset this whole apron thing and then make another three year run. And I just don't see it. I was actually looking at the okc, trying to figure out when they get screwed, because this is one of the legacies of this Celtics run. And then you think, like, okay, see, oh, they're so positioned. And they are in a lot of ways, right? They're young, they have draft picks, they have flexibility, but then they really don't. When we get to the 27, 28 season, I was trying to map out if they give Chet and Jalen Williams the, you know, the contract extensions, which would be five for 247. Right. And nobody takes less anymore. Chet's like, I want to help the team. I'll do five for 200. Like, he's going to take the 247. So that would kick in in the 26, 27 season. And Shay's Supermax really kicks in for the 27, 28 season. All of a sudden, he'd be making 65.5 million a year. And Chet and Jdub would. Would be making 46 and 46. So just for those three guys, you're looking at $158 million for three guys. And the second apron for that year would be around 230.
- [58:11]
Chris Mannix
Yeah. Cap will go up. It'll. Yeah, those numbers.
- [58:13]
Bill Simmons
I was. I was trying to factor in the cap because the cap goes up 10% max every year and the apron's tied to that. So they'd have about 70 million left for the rest of their roster after those three guys. And the point is, the NBA has created this league now where even if you do everything correctly, you make all the right trades, all the right draft picks, you just fucking nail every step. You're still fucked like three years later. And the Celtics are the latest example. We're seeing Denver now that they can't even build around. Yeah, I want to talk about that in a second, but I just think when. I wish I had said this on Sunday night, when we talk about like, oh, they're going to own the rest of the decade, it's like, I think we're talking three, four year windows for anybody. Cause it's too hard after that.
- [58:56]
Chris Mannix
Yeah, they're look, they're more equipped than any team in the last, what, five, six years to have sustained success. I mean, Milwaukee, they didn't have it in part because they went all in to get a guy like Holiday and cost themselves some picks. Then they missed.
- [59:15]
Bill Simmons
And they traded Drew assets too.
- [59:17]
Chris Mannix
Yeah, they, they missed like on these picks though. Like, that's a big part of it too. Like the guys they drafted can't play Denver kind of the same thing. Not as far as giving away draft capital. But when the veterans got too expensive for that team and maybe they should have spent a little more money, especially on guy like kcp, their young players were not ready to step in and, and play well.
- [59:38]
Bill Simmons
And then they did the Zeke Najee extension. They extended Porter to the point that he's untradable.
- [59:43]
Chris Mannix
Making like that felt was, that was like a Walmart deal there. That was a. Yeah, that was an interesting deal for. That was a bad one. Oklahoma City to me though, is, is a little bit different and, and, and you know this. But like the way that the contracts are set up over the next three years, help them navigate the books. And I'm talking about the team options. Like there are a lot of team options. You look at that, those books, Bill, that those.
- [60:07]
Bill Simmons
That doesn't happen could be gone in a year.
- [60:09]
Chris Mannix
Hardenstein's got a team option next summer. Isaiah Joe, I think has a team option. He does the year after that. Lou Dort.
- [60:16]
Bill Simmons
Lou Dort does as well.
- [60:18]
Chris Mannix
Another one there. Like, you can either let these guys go and shave that money off your books and get underneath one of those aprons, or you can convince someone like Hartenstein to, you know, take a little bit less to stick around and Be part of maybe something he likes being a part of. Dort. Dort, I think, might be different. I think there's gonna be a big market for Dort next summer if he's a free agent. I think they think he's a great player. But you've got Kayson Wallace looking to step in and look even next year. Like, I did a little. I did a little reporting Bill, around young Nicola Topic during the finals. Lot of Oklahoma City excitement about Nicola Topic. Lot of guys that have been scrimmaging with him. You know, Kenrich Williams talked to me for a while about him. Dagault, big fan of Nikola Topic. Like, it's not a. It's not an obvious path, but if they can just get these guys to hit, if they can get Topage to become part of their top eight or nine as early as next season, if they can get case in Wallace to be good enough to step in and replace Lou Dort down the line, if they can hit on one or two of these next. What are it, seven picks right now in the next four years of the draft, they can just hit on these guys. They got. They got a chance here to do what all those other teams we just mentioned have not done. So I'm. I'm a little more. Who's Monday? Yes. That's another guy that, you know, they have guys. They have guys that, you know they're not going to step into your top three or four, but they don't need them to do that. They need guys between 4 and 8 to be consistent. I think they've got more potential than any team of the last in the last five, six years to have that.
- [61:50]
Bill Simmons
We 100% agree. If any team is going to pull.
- [61:53]
Chris Mannix
Out kind of the way I'll say this on your show, I want all the real estate on top of island.
- [61:57]
Bill Simmons
I'm in, too. I'm. I'll get a condo right after. Look it up. You get a condo. So I agree with everything you just said. I'm talking three years from now. Here's. Here's the counter. And did you. I didn't. You didn't go to Indiana, right, for three and four?
- [62:15]
Chris Mannix
I did, yeah.
- [62:16]
Bill Simmons
Oh, I didn't. Somehow. I didn't see you.
- [62:18]
Chris Mannix
Yeah.
- [62:21]
Bill Simmons
Dort and Crusoe won Game 4, and that was the game they needed to win this series. And the problem with all of this is you still need guys like that. So it's like, oh, yeah, Wallace will replace Lou Dorrit. It's like, Willie, Lou Dorrit was fucking awesome in that game four. And so was Caruso. And it's like. And you think about, like the Celtics in 24, like Jrue Holiday in the Indiana series. Like, some of the stuff he was doing, the Porzingis, the boost he was. You just lose that and the series can tilt in the wrong way. And I honestly think if Indy wins game four, that series is done in six. I really believe it. I think Indy would have finished the series. I think there was this moment in time in that second half where they had the series and they just couldn't close it. So we'll see if they can do it. They have to keep hitting on the topic, types of like whoever. Like they had. They tick. Like they can keep replenishing that Dort Caruso spot, maybe. What did you think of the Kroenke thing today? That. I got a lot of texts about that one today. Cronky just. He's like, yeah, we basically opened the door for. We might have to trade Jokic if he doesn't want to sign an extension. It was the most needless media story I've ever seen, which makes it think. Makes me think it was intentional. I just don't think you make a mistake like that in a press conference when all of these guys are trained to just measure your words, say things carefully. I don't think it was an accident. I really don't.
- [63:51]
Chris Mannix
I've read the quote. I haven't watched the quote. And I always want to watch it first just to make sure to understand fully the context. But the right answer for any question about Nikola Jokic is, we're building around him forever. We want a statue of him in front of the building. That's it.
- [64:08]
Bill Simmons
He's never playing anywhere else. He's our guy. Him saying it.
- [64:12]
Chris Mannix
Trade. The word trade should never wind up in the same three sentences within three sentences of Nikola Jokic, ever.
- [64:17]
Bill Simmons
But the way he framed it was like, it made me think. And there's always been this stuff floating around. Who knows if it's true? But it made me wonder if they think he wants to be there for the rest of his career or not. The way it was. There was something weird about the way he said it that made me think. They're nervous that if anybody's just going to be like, I'll see you guys later. I'm going to go over here now. Like, who knows? Who knows what that dude. I don't know. I thought. I decided it was a notable moment. Sometimes in the NBA there would be these little press conference moments. Or something said in a locker room or just some sort of tidbit where you go, huh, that kind of came out of nowhere. What did that mean? So I'm just, I'm noting it.
- [65:02]
Chris Mannix
Don't you think that. Don't you think that, like, Jokic, to me, is more likely to just decide at the end of his next contract that he's not going to play anymore? Like, I'm just going to go back to Serbia and race horses and I've made enough money and I don't want to train like this anymore. Like that. That, to me, that's always been like something you should be. People should be wary about with joke. It's like everybody says, like, he's got the kind of game that could. That's going to age really well and it probably will. But I don't see him at like age 39, like pulling like an Arvidus Sabonis. Like, I don't see him. I just don't see him playing until the wheels come off. I think he's got a clock in his head for exactly how long he wants to play. But regardless.
- [65:46]
Bill Simmons
So I've heard, I've heard this theory that he's really like, this was going around like a year ago. If anyone's likely to just be like, I'll see you guys later, thanks for everything, it's him. I don't believe it. That dude's too competitive. And you've been to some of these playoff games when he's really locked in. He's a maniac. I don't think you're gonna be like, all right, I'm just gonna play in a shitty league now. I think that guy wants to. You know that what he did against OKC with the supporting cast he had, especially as we saw what happened with this OKC team. Pretty, pretty crazy. This episode is brought to you by Altra Running. Every pair of Altra shoes has a roomy toe box and zero to low drop which lets your toes spread and keeps your foot in a more natural position. All in the name of comfort and performance. With a variety of styles. There's a shoe for everyone. It's comfort you have to feel to believe. Try Altra for yourself with a free 30 day trial and free shipping@altrarunning.com this episode is brought to you by the Wells Fargo Active Cash Credit Card. This is an ad for the Active Cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small. So whether it's buying tickets to the game with your mom or grabbing a coffee with your dog, earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases made with it. Say it with me. The active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. Learn more@wells Fargo.com ActiveCash terms apply. What else did we have? Anything else we need to hit before we go? I mean, I, we. I'm going to talk boxing at the tail end, but any other NBA storylines you're excited about or. No.
- [67:26]
Chris Mannix
I think that's. Yeah, that's here, here's. Let me throw at you the, the NBA storyline that might not be applicable now, but could be a year from now because I think this is the potential biggest free agent that could be out there. Sam Presti in Oklahoma City. Like we're going to get two expansion teams probably the next three years. I think the NBA is going to step on the gas with the expansion. Now that the lakers sold for $10 billion.
- [67:52]
Bill Simmons
You know who's roadblocking them right now? James Dolan. Yeah, he's got a little cabal of anti expansion owners that he's trying to just to. Because he doesn't want it. He doesn't want to share the meteor rates.
- [68:05]
Chris Mannix
Yeah, but James Dolan doesn't want to share anything. He votes no at every single board of governors meetings. Yes, he does go back and look at some of these meetings. Like how many of them are 29 to 1? Like he sends his consigliere in because he doesn't really go to vote.
- [68:17]
Bill Simmons
I think he has a couple people this time though. I think expansion. Yeah, I think this expansion thing's a little, little more complicated than people are giving him credit for him.
- [68:27]
Chris Mannix
It might be, but it's not. It's not enough. Like how many do you need to expand? Is the 2/3 that I thought it.
- [68:33]
Bill Simmons
Was 3/4, but it's maybe either.
- [68:35]
Chris Mannix
Either way I don't think that Dolan has enough to block I as many as that maybe out there that quietly don't want it. I think there's a lot that very.
- [68:43]
Bill Simmons
Publicly can you imagine people are like, yeah, I'm in the Dolan block. Dolan's leading the way. I'm on his side with the. Can you imagine like aligning with that. I'm taking the expansion fee anyway.
- [68:54]
Chris Mannix
But like on the expansion side, like let's just assume Vegas and Seattle, everybody believes that's how it's going to play out. Like if you're the new Sonics, what's Sam Presti Worth to you piece of the team. If you're a piece of the team.
- [69:08]
Bill Simmons
2% of the team, 1%, whatever.
- [69:11]
Chris Mannix
Same thing with the Vegas gambler, whatever the hell they're going to be called. Worth the exact same thing.
- [69:16]
Bill Simmons
I think like Seattle is better though because that's the. We lost this guy to Oklahoma City. Now we've brought him back to be our architect.
- [69:25]
Chris Mannix
He was 29 when he came here. He's 49 when he's coming back and he's going to build this team the way, you know, it's. It's prophecy fulfilled, all that stuff. I don't know that Sam is looking to leave Oklahoma, but he's been there a very long time and he's not only won them a championship, which is the priority, but he set them up and presumably a Rob Hennigan who would replace him, who hasn't been seen much in the last 10 years but his lieutenant there, he's got it set up so there's a ascension there. And look, I've been saying at the time and I know you knew it too like Sam when, when Boston was open before Brad Stevens got it, like Sam was interested, Sam was interested in that job.
- [70:04]
Bill Simmons
But the funny thing was Boston really wasn't open. I mean that was one of the things is like we went from Danny to Brad. They had a Brad coaching situation and a big contract for him. They had Danny ready to. And it just. I, I don't think Presti did he ever get to throw his hat in the ring. I don't think he did.
- [70:21]
Chris Mannix
But externally nobody, I don't think externally people knew it was going to be that clean an ascension. I think people on the outside thought there might be, it might be an open job. And I think when it was thought that way there was some, I think.
- [70:34]
Bill Simmons
There was interest background. Presti, Massachusetts went to Emerson like dream was to work for the Celtics and just never happened.
- [70:42]
Chris Mannix
Still hangs out in New England in the summertime with his family like Zillow does all that. I'm just saying, like he wouldn't have any reason to feel bad about leaving Oklahoma City. He helped win them a championship and he built a winner that can be there sustainable for the next three or four years.
- [70:56]
Bill Simmons
Years.
- [70:56]
Chris Mannix
The chance to do something like build a team from, from scratch for a guy like Sam Presti who has built two, you know, a title contender back in 2012 with the, with the peak of the Durant Harden, Westbrook years and a title winner that may have won multiple championships by the time his quote free Agency comes up. I just think that's something to watch. I think that whatever two teams get the expansion rights, I think he is going to be someone that's on their radar. And I don't think there's any price probably too high for getting a guy like Sam Presley to run your team.
- [71:33]
Bill Simmons
Mannix, you've done it again. It's a great call. He's accomplished his job. He won the action movie. He saved everybody in the burning building. Now, if he leaves, you couldn't be mad about it. There's also, like, if he left, like, I don't think expansion is going to be a couple years from now. That's right around the time maybe you'd want to get away from this OKC thing. But he had an incredible run. If I'm Seattle, I guess the precedents would be like Pat riley in Miami 30 years ago, and they brought him in. He got a little taste of the team and the whole thing. All right, well, we'll see what happens in the draft. Let's do boxing really quick, though. Casual boxing fan Bill is here.
- [72:12]
Chris Mannix
Love it. Big fight, Bill.
- [72:14]
Bill Simmons
Big fight, Bill, who didn't even know that you were announcing one of the Paul brothers this weekend in Anaheim. But who's he? It's Jake Paul. Who is he fighting this weekend?
- [72:22]
Chris Mannix
He is fighting. Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. Who a lifetime ago was the middleweight champion of the world, has fallen on some hard times as of late. Young Chavez Jr. Has had some documented drug and alcohol problems. He actually lost to Anderson Silva in a boxing match, which was not a good look a couple of years ago. But he's got a big name and he's got a decent following, and there's a lot of Mexicans on the undercard. So this is going to be a interesting arena for Jake Paul on Saturday.
- [72:57]
Bill Simmons
Okay, what's our big fight of this summer? What are we looking forward to?
- [73:04]
Chris Mannix
Usyk Dubois 2 is the most interesting right now. Dubois knocked out by USYK 2023. Like, almost. It'll be almost to the day of the month when he got knocked out by Usyk and he's back in with him. But dubois has changed a lot over the last two years. I mean, he has gotten like a heart and confidence transplant like he. He gets with a new trainer and Don Charles, who's a very, very vocal guy. And as much about, you know, motivation kind of Mickey esque as he is about tactics, and he's helped him put together a run that includes Jarell Miller, Philip Perkovich, and everybody saw the Anthony Joshua knockout Like that was the crowning achievement and the title winning win for, for Dubois. Now he gets another crack at Usyk, who just continues to be an all time great, doesn't show any signs of slowing down. But I think, you know, if this fight was made a year, year and a half ago, it wouldn't have interested me at all. The fact that it's happening now after the, the AJ win, I think it's really interesting. It's gonna be like 80,000 fans in Wembley Stadium for, for that fight. And I, I think it's, it's an interesting fight. Now that Dubois been on this run, I can't wait.
- [74:13]
Bill Simmons
Because nothing is more fun than throwing Usyk in a parlay with other sports. And he's just the most reliable leg every time. Just keep betting on him till he loses. I'm already, I'm already so in the positive on Usyk fights like it's. Everything's gravy from this point on, but I'm going to keep throwing him in there.
- [74:29]
Chris Mannix
And also Deontay Wilder's back Bill on Friday in Kansas. Couple places he is, he has come back and he's looking to make one more run. At 39 years old, ready to go.
- [74:42]
Bill Simmons
Here's a good, Here's a good question for you that I guarantee your podcast partner Sergio Mora wouldn't set you up with an alley oop like this. Who has a chance to be boxing's Caitlin Clark? Oh, the out of nowhere person that would get everybody excited about the casual fans. Is there anybody? Because I, I've given up on Bacoli. I sold my stock at a loss.
- [75:07]
Chris Mannix
That's a good idea.
- [75:08]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [75:09]
Chris Mannix
Boxing's Caitlin Clark.
- [75:12]
Bill Simmons
Just that the, the, the out of nowhere somebody that could kind of train even somebody who could be like as big as Oscar was or Canelo was in the early years.
- [75:27]
Chris Mannix
It's hard to like, I thought Ryan Garcia could have been that guy two years ago. That's.
- [75:33]
Bill Simmons
That stock is done.
- [75:34]
Chris Mannix
That stock's gone. That stock is sold. And the problem with being able to predict that is that the amateur ranks are garbage. Like nobody comes out of the Olympics anymore. Like Oscar used that gold medal as a springboard. You know, even Wilder. Even Wilder. Oh wait, you want to get even more recent. Won a bronze medal. Bronze Bomber use that as a springboard. Like men's US Olympians have not had a good run for decades now. So I don't know. You know, there's a lot of teenagers I've seen coming up the ranks. You know, here's one in the heavyweight division. Moses Atoma, I don't know if you heard that name before, but he's fought a bunch of like B level guys and has knocked them all out. He has that. He's 20 years old and has a little Mike Tyson vibe to him. Little bit of a, little bit of a Mike Tyson. He's knocking guys out early, like very early. He's not super big either. He's like 6 foot 3, but he's got this ridiculous hand speed that guys just can't keep up with. He's fighting in August against Dillian White, and Dillian White used to be a pretty good fighter in the uk, but has long since passed his prime. That is going to be another spectacular knockout for Mo Saitama. That, that's a guy I would watch. He's. I don't know about the Caitlin Clark potential because he's a Brit and. But like, does he have Anthony Joshua potential in terms of popularity? He might. He might. And if he fights over in the US More, maybe he gets one of those Lennox Lewis type followings that made Lennox a star.
- [77:01]
Bill Simmons
That's a good one. Good name. All right, Mannix, good luck in Anaheim. I hope the Celtics don't do any more trades after we just finished this podcast leading with Celtics trades.
- [77:12]
Chris Mannix
But I would, I would just, you know the Hauser jersey you've got in your house there.
- [77:18]
Bill Simmons
Oh, man.
- [77:19]
Chris Mannix
Might be a collector's item. Not even, not before the draft, but at some point this off season could be a collector's item.
- [77:24]
Bill Simmons
All right, thanks, Mannix. Good to see you. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Chris Mannix. Thanks to Eduardo and Gahao, as always. And don't forget, I'm coming right back after round one of the NBA draft on Wednesday night. Be ready for that. Don't forget about Die Hard With a Vengeance rewatchables. It's up and I will see you in 24 hours. Must be 21 plus in President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + in President D.C. gambling problem. Call 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-887-897-777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplianma.org or call 800-327-550 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York. This episode is supported by FX's the Bear. The Emmy award winning series returns following Carmi, Sydney and Richie as they push forward, determined not only to survive, but also to take the Bear to the next level. This season, the pursuit of excellence isn't just about getting better. It's about deciding what's worth holding on to. FX is the Bear. All episodes streaming June 25th on Hulu.