The Cinderella Pacers Do It Again, Plus Trade Buzz From Indiana With Zach Lowe

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Bill Simmons Podcast - "The Cinderella Pacers Do It Again, Plus Trade Buzz From Indiana With Zach Lowe"

Release Date: June 12, 2025

In this riveting episode of The Bill Simmons Podcast, hosted by Bill Simmons of HBO and The Ringer, he teams up with NBA analyst Zach Lowe to dissect the Indiana Pacers' stunning performance in Game 3 of the 2025 NBA Finals against the Oklahoma City Thunder. The conversation delves deep into game strategies, player performances, team dynamics, and the broader implications for the series, all while touching upon potential trade rumors and the future of the NBA landscape.

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1. Episode Introduction and Setting the Stage

Bill Simmons opens the episode with a light-hearted setup, mentioning their improvised podcast recording in a hotel room equipped with minimal tech. This informal atmosphere sets the tone for an in-depth and candid discussion.

Bill Simmons [00:38]: "We're in my hotel room... We don't need a video crew. We've got cups with strings if need be."

2. Comprehensive Analysis of Game 3

The core of the episode revolves around an exhaustive breakdown of Game 3, where the Indiana Pacers triumphed over the Oklahoma City Thunder, securing a 2-1 series lead and placing themselves two games away from the championship.

a. Team Performances and Key Moments

Bill and Zach commend the Pacers for their exceptional display, comparing the game's intensity to that of later Finals games.

Bill Simmons [04:45]: "Basketball was about as high level as you're going to get for a game three of the Finals... It was just good basketball."

They highlight the physicality and strategic plays that defined the match, noting the significant contributions from both teams' benches.

b. Player Spotlight: Halliburton and the Pacers Bench

The discussion shifts to crucial players like Halliburton, whose versatility on both offense and defense was pivotal.

Zach Lowe [06:27]: "Halliburton was great... He was trying to get in the paint and take more stuff."

Bill praises Halliburton's defensive prowess and his ability to impact the game beyond just scoring.

The Pacers' bench players, including Matheron and McConnell, receive accolades for their outstanding performances, which were instrumental in swinging the game's momentum.

Zach Lowe [08:49]: "We can't. There's no... we could not possibly say enough about McConnell and Matheran."

c. Defensive Strategies and Turnovers

A significant portion of the analysis focuses on Indiana's defensive strategies, particularly their handling of SGA (Shay), whose performance was a double-edged sword.

Zach Lowe [14:52]: "He has a pick six against Shea... Indiana wins the turnover battle."

The duo discusses how the Pacers managed to limit three-point attempts and capitalize on turnovers, emphasizing the importance of defense in their victory.

3. Implications for the Series and Future Games

With the series at 2-1, Bill and Zach contemplate the stakes of Game 4, recognizing it as a pivotal moment that could determine the championship's outcome.

Zach Lowe [15:46]: "OKC, Indiana is a really small city and so is Oklahoma City. Shit happens."

They predict a high-stakes, dramatic Game 4, considering the physical toll of Game 3 and the psychological impact of the Pacers' win.

4. In-Depth Player Discussions

a. TJ McConnell and Tyrese Haliburton

McConnell's defensive ingenuity, particularly his ability to execute multiple "McConnells" (inbounds steals), is lauded as a game-changer.

Zach Lowe [18:50]: "He had three full McConnells in one game."

Haliburton's aggressive playstyle and defensive activity are also examined, highlighting his multifaceted contributions to the team's success.

Bill Simmons [06:27]: "He was just awesome on offense. His hands were everywhere on defense."

b. Posey Mathurin and Caruso

Mathurin's adaptability and clutch performances, especially in critical moments, are celebrated as key factors in the Pacers' championship run.

Zach Lowe [22:09]: "Toppin was the revelation for me... His follow-up dunk... was one of the big plays of the game."

Caruso's defensive efforts and his fluctuating plus-minus statistics spark a discussion on his consistency and impact on the game.

5. Strategic Insights and Coaching Decisions

The conversation delves into the strategic maneuvers employed by both teams' coaches, particularly Indiana's use of pick-and-roll defenses and continuous ball movement without holding possession for extended periods.

Bill Simmons [34:19]: "They do it with Shea, with OKC, with Halburton, but then weirdly also with Matheran..."

They explore Indiana's offensive philosophy, emphasizing unorthodox playstyles that keep opponents guessing and disrupt traditional defensive setups.

6. Trade Buzz and NBA Landscape Changes

Transitioning from game analysis, Bill and Zach discuss the broader NBA environment, focusing on potential trades that could reshape team dynamics.

a. Kevin Durant Trade Speculations

A significant portion of the episode debates the future of star player Kevin Durant, contemplating possible moves to teams like the San Antonio Spurs.

Bill Simmons [65:52]: "He should go to the Spurs. That's how it's going to play out."

b. Clippers, Spurs, and Wolves Trade Scenarios

They dissect the complexities of trading top-tier players, considering the implications for team rosters and future seasons.

Zach Lowe [66:16]: "The Suns are going to have to look in the mirror and think..."

7. Historical Context and Finals Comparisons

Bill and Zach draw parallels between the current Finals series and past iconic matchups, analyzing how dominant teams have sometimes fallen short.

Bill Simmons [55:00]: "OKC is a better team. But it doesn't mean they're going to win the series."

They reference memorable Finals moments, such as the 2016 Warriors and Cavaliers clash, to underscore the unpredictability and drama inherent in the NBA Finals.

8. Coaching Changes and Team Management

The discussion turns to coaching strategies, particularly focusing on the New York Knicks' search for a new head coach amidst their unexpected Finals run.

Zach Lowe [88:07]: "Taylor Jenkins is an awesome coach and he would be toward the top of my list..."

They express skepticism about unconventional coaching hires, advocating for experienced and compatible coaches to lead teams effectively.

9. Predictions and Final Thoughts

As the episode wraps up, Bill and Zach offer their predictions for Game 4, weighing the physical and emotional toll on both teams.

Zach Lowe [61:55]: "Oklahoma City wins a very close game, but Oklahoma City 118, Indiana 114."

They reflect on the season's unpredictability, the rise of underdog teams like the Pacers, and the potential long-term impacts on the NBA's competitive landscape.

10. Closing Remarks and Future Episodes

Bill and Zach conclude by teasing future discussions, including post-Game 4 analyses and continuing trade rumors, maintaining anticipation for upcoming playoff developments.

Bill Simmons [93:56]: "Hopefully we figure out we'll learn from the kinks. We only had one stop and start this time around."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Bill Simmons [00:38]: "We're in my hotel room... We don't need a video crew."
• Bill Simmons [04:45]: "Basketball was about as high level as you're going to get for a game three of the Finals... It was just good basketball."
• Zach Lowe [08:49]: "We can't. There's no... we could not possibly say enough about McConnell and Matheran."
• Zach Lowe [22:09]: "Toppin was the revelation for me..."
• Bill Simmons [34:19]: "They do it with Shea, with OKC, with Halburton, but then weirdly also with Matheran..."
• Bill Simmons [65:52]: "He should go to the Spurs. That's how it's going to play out."
• Bill Simmons [04:45]: "Basketball was about as high level as you're going to get for a game three of the Finals... It was just good basketball."

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Conclusion

This episode encapsulates the excitement and unpredictability of the NBA Finals, highlighting the Indiana Pacers' underdog status and their strategic triumph over the Oklahoma City Thunder. Bill Simmons and Zach Lowe provide insightful analysis, blending statistical breakdowns with passionate commentary, making it a must-listen for basketball enthusiasts eager to understand the nuances of one of the most compelling Finals series in recent history.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. Summer is here and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. What do I mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parmesan delivered. A day in the sun? No. A bottle of rum. Yes, Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost. Almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now for alcohol. You must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region app for details. It's the Bill Simmons Podcast, presented by the Ringer Podcast Network, where you can find Zach Lowe's podcast.

[Zach Lowe]

Whoa.

[Bill Simmons]

Big free agent edition. The beginning of April. Now we're in a hotel room in Indiana. We just watched a stunning NBA Finals Game three. We have a very fancy tech setup. We're in my hotel room. I have my camera facing me. I have Zach's iPad facing him. They said we would have needed a video crew, right? We'd have people here. We'd have mics. We don't need that.

[Zach Lowe]

We have cups with strings if need be, attached to each other.

[Bill Simmons]

You know what? We belong to the people. We can just put this together. We can just do this like the common man. We just watched an incredible game. Ringer Podcast Network. Check out the rewatchables we put up. Working Girl. When are you going to be in the Rewatchables, by the way?

[Zach Lowe]

No one asked me. People ask me this question. Just ask me.

[Bill Simmons]

Just, well, you have to come to LA is the problem.

[Zach Lowe]

I love Los Angeles.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, well, you're going to be in the rewatchables at some point. Anyway. Coming up, we are going to talk about an incredible Game three that we both went to. It's all next. Let's take a break and we'll bring in Pearl Jam. This episode is presented by State Farm. It's no secret that great teams need great teammates. I've been saying this for years. And when it comes to insurance, State Farm is there to help you find the right coverage for your home, car and more. Whether you need an in person or digital assist, they're ready. When life hits you with a full court press, get a game plan that helps fit your life. Talk to State Farm today. State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. All right, Zach Lowe. It is 11:43 Eastern Time. We are in Indianapolis, Indiana, a wonderful place. I had a great time today. Everybody's super friendly. People love this Pacers team. There was this sense of Boy, it would be adorable if they could just get a couple punches in. We, we kind of know where this series is going. Around the third quarter, I started to get flashbacks to the 2011 finals when I was in Dallas. A Dallas team that did not make a lot of sense. And they're playing Miami, first year of LeBron Wade Bosh, just waiting for Miami to finish them off. And there's a point with the crowd and the energy and shots are going in and defensive plays where you kind of go, huh, what's going on here? And Indiana wins and they're up two games to one. They're two games away from the 2025 NBA title.

[Zach Lowe]

Zach Club, I'll tell you this right now. I was at Pacers practice yesterday. I've been around the Pacers a lot the last three weeks. The whole like, we're playing with house money thing, it'd be nice if we got a punch or two in. None of that is filtered into them. They're like, oh, yeah, we can, we can win. Like, we're, we're as good as this team. We can beat this team. Like, none of that is, is applying to them. And I, you know, the whole discussion in the last 48, 72 hours has been, I've seen like a million stories you've talked about with Ryan. Where does this team rank? And like, is the most unusual potential champion, the most unusual finalists, you know, blah, blah, blah, preseason odds. It's time to start just shifting the discussion to something happened. And this is now a championship level team because regardless of what happens from here on out, they are up 2:1 in the NBA Finals over a 68 win team. And that game tonight didn't feel fluky. It felt like two teams trading punches. A little ugly, a little grimy, People got tired, some bad shots were taken, some tough defensive possessions were inflicted by both teams and they made enough big plays to the bench was unbelievable. But like, the most unusual thing, like, it's cool, it's going to be good trivia whether they win or lose, but like, something happened to this team and they're just this good first half the.

[Bill Simmons]

Basketball was about as high level as you're going to get for a game three of the Finals. Usually it takes a couple games. That was like a game four, game five level. It's like, oh, they're going toe to toe. They're doing all that. The benches are coming in and actually making an impact. They're running really smart offense. They're attacking the other side like they've seen them For a bunch of games. I was halftime. I was just really impressed, like talking to the people in my section. Tommy came over. We were just like, that was just good basketball game.

[Zach Lowe]

Tommy Alter.

[Bill Simmons]

Tommy Alter stopped by.

[Zach Lowe]

Just ubiquitous.

[Bill Simmons]

Wearing a roots of fight jacket. Just super happy to be in Indiana.

[Zach Lowe]

Third quarter starts, six L run Thunder.

[Bill Simmons]

Boom. And OKC comes out with some real physicality and some swagger. And it was like, all right, that was cute. That was a fun run by Anana and just felt like it was going to go the way of all these other OKC games. And once again, they climbed out of the hole. Halberton was great. I don't want to do the Halliburton stepped up thing because I thought that was the worst storyline of the week. And I thought it was a fundamental misunderstanding of who Halliburton is as a player. A guy who takes 13 to 14 shots a game, who averages 199 during the season and 199 in the playoffs. He is who he is. This is Steve Nash in the mid 2000s was like this. Chris Paul in the late 2000s and 2010s were like this. These guys are not built to score 20, take 20, 22 shots a game. They're not 30 point scorers. They make everyone else better. That's the whole point of having them. They set the tone. They drive the car. You want to put them in an awesome car and let them do their thing. With that said, I thought he was a little more aggressive in the first half.

[Zach Lowe]

No question.

[Bill Simmons]

He clearly was like, I can't let whatever happened last game happen again. So he took a couple shots that weren't even great shots, but it was just. He was trying to get in the paint and he was trying to take more stuff. But I thought he wasn't just awesome on offense. His hands were everywhere on defense. I don't know how many balls he touched, deflected, stole, but it felt like he was all over the place.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, he had a pick six against Shea. Shay had a couple bad pass turnovers that went the other way. Six turnovers for Shea. Indiana wins the turnover battle. That's step one to having any chance of beating the Thunder is like not just not lose it by too much. They won it. I like Halliburton. I remember a long two he took over at SGA in the first half. That was clearly just like an ISO. Like, they want me to move more aggressive. This is like, I got to take this shot. He. He took a couple threes where he just kind of pulled up like in like before using a screen or in between a switch, like, I got a little window, I gotta take it. Like, I can't afford not to. Not to take it. But the other stat is he was great. Halliburton was awesome. Police sirens. I wonder if people could hear the police sirens. It was quite a scene walking from the arena to your hotel, by the way.

[Bill Simmons]

I would describe it as somewhere between joyous and euphoric.

[Zach Lowe]

It was like. It was the kind of scene I've seen when it's 3:1 and your team's on the verge of winning. Like there was a kid hanging out of a moving car. There was a guy in a Larry Bird Indiana state jersey just running around yelling, police were high fiving people. It was great. Anyway, Halliburton was awesome. 22, 11 and 9. If you cared more about his stats. Got to chase that 10th rebound, you know, come on, get Halbert. You got to step up, get the triple double, man. Steal a rebound from somebody. Halliburton was brilliant. Still, even so, stat of the game. Halliburton in a game they win by nine. Just. And I be, I'm being facetious, but just plus one. And they had been getting destroyed in the non Halliburton minutes, which are also the non sga minutes in the first two games. And they won those minutes decisively tonight. We know why the bench guys, Matheran McConnell, Toppin, big fourth quarter for him. Those guys were plus 16, plus 12, plus 18 two. By the way, two guys in Toppin and Matheran that have been the subject of. Well, if the Pacers ever need to duck the luxury tax or cut their tax bills, I think just dump those guys. Dump those guys. They just won you an NBA Finals game against a 68 win team. There's no dumping, no dumps will be taken with those guys.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the Pacers bench, what was it, 3224. And they come in, TJ starts doing the TJ thing. They start pressing, he gets a steal, whatever goes out of bounds. He does the thing where he goes to the side of the court, hulks up in front of everybody. And it was another supercharged thing for the crowd because they know they need the energy from those guys. I said to you on Thursday, even though Matheran was terrible, I said there's something looked comfortable to me out there. There was something athletically comfortable for him. And I was thinking today about just in general watching the game. They have all these Canadians out there who have all known each other forever. And it's one of the reasons nemhard I don't think anyone can really guard sga, but he's probably looked the best doing it because he's been playing against him since what, they were 12. He's just not afraid of him. And he knows all his moves. He doesn't fall for his herky jerky thing. He's just kind of always there. And then Matheran isn't afraid of anybody. He's the most irrational confidence guy you get. Then you flip it. On the other side. When we were talking about OKC looking a little young, they don't have that one guy. And again, we're nitpicking. I think that team's great. They don't have that one. Like crazy Matheran, he check, let me carry us for four minutes guy.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, it's the mvp. That's who it is.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, that's the thing. It's SGA and Jalen, but they don't have the random eighth guy that comes off the bench and does whatever. But. So I'm trying to think like, if I'm Indiana, what am I taking away from that game? Big picture. Because OKC looked young. We covered that piece. And they know that they can pressure them. They know that they can at least stay in the vicinity of guarding sga. What are the other big takeaways for you?

[Zach Lowe]

I think they can take away number one, that Halliburton found the right balance in how he needs to play and is growing comfortable more in this series to the point that I wonder if we see some adjustments from the Thunder defensively on him. I thought Indiana's defense, minus their bigs, are still having issues in the pick and roll against Shea. I thought they amped up the pressure in the second half. They started blitzing them a little bit more and like Mick just mixed in different stuff, but minus those kind of breakdowns where Shea would fake toward a screen and go the other way and Miles Turner would be like, where'd he go? Where'd he go? And there'd be a layup or J Dub. Same thing got him a couple times. Their defense was really good. And actually one of the reasons I'm interested to go back and watch this game is an insanely low three point volume game for both teams in 20.

[Bill Simmons]

25.

[Zach Lowe]

27 threes for the Pacers, only 22 threes for the Thunder. Like you don't see games anymore where neither team gets 33. So they were able to take away. Not take away, but limit SJ a little bit, make it tough for him without giving up. Like like, can you. Wallace may have had one in the corner. That was an awful miss. Like, a lot of their threes were contested, tough threes. Like, it was a. For. For a team whose defense is. It's a, like, slight limitation. They. They've played a pretty good defensive series. Like, minus those breakdowns and just that. Just that. The bench is. The bench is ready for even Ben Shepard. Those 18 minutes from Ben Shepard are big, like, competent minutes.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, right.

[Zach Lowe]

Really?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. He was. He was at least staying with sj. It wasn't like he was shutting him down.

[Zach Lowe]

We can't. There's no. Like, we could not possibly say enough about McConnell and Matheran. Like, they deserve, like, 10 minutes of this podcast. They were so good.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, so when I said to you, though, I think I said I could see him having 27 and 20 minutes. How many minutes did he play?

[Zach Lowe]

Probably 22 minutes. And he had 27 points. Exactly.

[Bill Simmons]

And the only one that I felt like he couldn't really do anything against. Cause nobody Kenned his Dort. And he would try to get switches to get away from Dort so he could attack. But it felt like he was comfortable against everybody else. So I wrote down. It was OKC 90 to 84. Right after that. Jalen Williams hit that big three at the end of the third quarter.

[Zach Lowe]

Ooh, that was a killer. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And I wrote down that was an oh for the rest of the decade moment, because that was one of those I got it guys. And, you know, so I wrote down a bunch of stats. Cause there was three minutes there. Indy had five turnovers in that quarter. They had seven in the first quarter and none in the second quarter when they played well. Indy was 6 for 22 from three after three quarters. And Turner was 2 for 10 and minus 15. And OKC was plus nine in rebound. So every single stat was looking good for okc. Indy wasn't playing well except for Haliburton and the bench guys when they came in. And then they swung it. And I'm like, you, I want to watch that tape again. It felt like the big things that swung were. Halbert made a couple big plays. SGA looked. What's the word you would use?

[Zach Lowe]

I. I thought frazzled.

[Bill Simmons]

We frazzled.

[Zach Lowe]

I just thought their offense. And this is. If the Thunder have. There is no weakness. But if the Thunder have a weakness that we've seen or a limitation that we've seen in a few of these games is that their offense can just sort of default into, like, okay, we're just not going to pass Like, I'm just going to do everything by myself. And J Dub and Shay both had a lot of those down the stretch. Some successful, some not. I think they had 16 assists on what, 37 baskets or something today. I mean, that's a somewhat alarming number. And it's telling to me that after every timeout, if you go chart their out of timeout plays in this game, almost every one was some kind of like really heavily scripted set, like set piece where SGA would set a back screen for homegrown or SGA would set it like almost like warriors off ball stuff. And it's Dagnal trying to be like, let's get some stuff going here. But then when the going gets tough and the game gets into the muck and it's at the end and, and the Pacers contested those shots pretty well. Even Nemhardt, like they, SGA would shove them off a little bit and Nemhardt would just be like, I, I, I got shoved. I'm not going to give up on the play. And they didn't panic.

[Bill Simmons]

And yeah, did you notice OKC was doing that they're doing to Nick. They were really physical drives.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean, jdub is a tank, man.

[Bill Simmons]

I felt like the whole, the first quarter and the third quarter especially OKC came out with a little bit of a physical swagger. Like, we're a stronger team than this team. Let's punish these guys.

[Zach Lowe]

I just wonder if they thought the whole series for Indiana rides on this game. If we can come in here and take this game and go up 2:1 and win, you know, win two straight in series, take back home court advantage. We're going to smell blood in the water. They're going to be worried we're going to reassert our sort of primacy in the series. I wonder if they just came out and like, this is the series for Indiana because this feels obviously way different. If it's OKC2, Indiana 1 and now it's like, now game four is just a perfect, awesome game for us to go to.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, and game four is also the way they do this final schedule. It's the most interesting game cause it's the one game where you only have the one day rest.

[Zach Lowe]

And by the way, isn't that awesome because the two days of rest between games one and two and it's nice they space the finals out. You don't, you don't want to overstress the players, but it, it did feel like some of that, some of the momentum from that crazy first game was sort of dissipated over 48 hours now, where it's like one day off practices tomorrow. Everyone's going to talk. We go right back at it.

[Bill Simmons]

I was probably 10 rows behind the OKC bench, and I was watching them before the game and I was watching them. They took a big lead. The first four or five minutes. They were up like 13, 6.

[Zach Lowe]

Was there a double digit lead in the game at any time? I don't think there was.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought, yeah, they got to 15, 6. I think that was the biggest lead. And. And Chet had eight. Halberton hadn't gotten going in any way yet. And we were actually wondering how if he was hurt. Cause that was a big topic the last day. Is he hiding some sort of interest?

[Zach Lowe]

He wasn't.

[Bill Simmons]

He was obviously fine. But in the timeout, they're laughing, all their chests are out. They're like doing like. You can kind of tell with benches sometimes how confident a team is. Now I sound like body language guy, but I. But in this case, he did.

[Zach Lowe]

He made the trip.

[Bill Simmons]

And it was really funny to watch that kind of demeanor shift over the course of the game. And by the fourth quarter, there was none, obviously none of that because they're behind, but it was kind of like almost a little shell shock. Nobody was talking. There was like Caruso coming in and doing like the come on, guys. But for the most part, that swagger, like got just pulled out of them over the course of two hours.

[Zach Lowe]

And that this was like one of those great finals games where it swung back and forth a bunch of times. It was like, oh, this team's up 4 momentum. And immediately the other team would answer. Like they just every. Both teams had answers and answers and answers until just the Pacers had a few more answers. And then they ran out of. Ran out of clock. OKC missed the free throws that needed to make to have any chance. Caruso didn't get the flagrant call. What did you think of that foul from, like, your perspective?

[Bill Simmons]

I think you get that call in okc.

[Zach Lowe]

I think you get that call in the regular season.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, you 100% get it. If it's a Friday night ESPN game, you get that call.

[Zach Lowe]

I didn't mind it not being called.

[Bill Simmons]

Because I thought he pulled his hand up right after the. Right after he hit him. Like he didn't like, follow through.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, so that's why I like. I mean, I don't want to belabor it because the game, it didn't end up mattering that much, but I do think there's some Skill in not being so out of control that you just decapitate someone. And niecemith, like, he missed his head, he missed his neck, he hit his shoulders, his arms, and didn't like wind up crazily like that. That he took some precaution to not just kill Alex Caruso in midair.

[Bill Simmons]

The problem is he had no chance on that play. He was directly behind him. And usually they give the benefit of the doubt to the guy who's ahead because they don't want those guys to get hurt in those. But I was fine with it.

[Zach Lowe]

Can we talk about McConnell and Atherin more?

[Bill Simmons]

So, yeah, we have a bunch of stuff.

[Zach Lowe]

McConnell had three McConnells in one NBA Finals game.

[Bill Simmons]

He caught an inbounds pass.

[Zach Lowe]

That's a McConnell. He said, that's a McConnell is an inbound steal. He got three of them in one.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm like, well, so what's an official McConnell? Because he jumped up like a defensive end on the football line, a McConnell and stole like a screen pass.

[Zach Lowe]

That's actually interesting. Is a it a McConnell?

[Bill Simmons]

It's a full McConnell if he, if he, if he grabs the imbounce pass out of the air.

[Zach Lowe]

That's right. A full McConnell is if he's the first person to touch an inbound spat from the other team and he steals the ball. Yeah, a semi McConnell is. They inbound it to another player who catches it and then he just takes the ball away. That's all sets up by. That's a different. He had three full McConnells in one game, including 95, 91 in the fourth quarter. Thunder have the ball in there, ahead by four. Jalen Williams brings the ball over half court, gets pressed a little bit, picks up his dribble inexplicably, and then like throws a pass to nobody. McConnell gets it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Goes down the court, misses offensive rebound. Nemhardt hits a short two. It's 95, 93. Instantaneous. McConnell put back layup. 95, 95. It's crab like, it could have been a six point game. And it's tied in five seconds in a McConnell.

[Bill Simmons]

Crowd goes crazy too. Yeah, there was a few times like they fucked up a few fast breaks. McConnell had one where he just was like tearing down. It was like a one on four and he just whipped it into the corner. They reviewed it. It was just a bad play. But where it felt like Indiana was about to go up by eight. And every time it felt that way, they would do something dumb. McConnell was, you know, we've seen him do this at home. Like if you actually watch the Pacers the last couple of years, this is a big part of who they are. Same coming in these home games and swinging the game. Matheran hit or miss, he knew he was going to have a game like this at some point. Toppin was the revelation for me because there's been times in the playoffs where he looks unplayable and then there's other times in the playoffs where you go, wow, I can't believe the Knicks just gave him away. Because they did they, I mean, they gave him away. The seller cap, they literally gave him away. That follow up dunk he had, which I was lucky because it was on my basket and you could see there was a miss and you could see him timing it from the foul line and coming up and all of a sudden he was 12ft. And by the way, that was one of the big Carlisle moves of the game. He sat Siakam until I think like three and a half minutes left.

[Zach Lowe]

He rode the top and Turner combination, the big man rotation.

[Bill Simmons]

But sitting Siakam was pretty bold. Like, I don't.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, and it's fitting for the kind of player Pascal Siakam is that the first time we mention him, X minutes into this podcast is about how he wasn't in the game for a lot of the fourth quarter and, and all he did was finish with 21, 6 and 4 on 8 of 14 shooting. And just like he just. I've said this to you before, he's like the electric current pulsing through the game. You don't notice it all the time, but it's powering them constantly. And like, yes, he was on the bench for some of the fourth quarter. He still had a great game defensively, I thought he was awesome. Made a lot of plays on defense.

[Bill Simmons]

He should have been on the bench for that long. I thought it was really risky because I didn't think Turner was good. And ironically, Turner in the last couple of minutes had three straight awesome defensive plays that kind of glitched the game. So that's why he was out there. But he was bad for most of the game.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, Toppin, you know, he has. It's 105, 100. I just, I'm not doing this from straight memory, but I just looked at the play by play. 105, 100. Dort misses a wide open corner three to bring it to within two.

[Bill Simmons]

By the way, I thought that was going in.

[Zach Lowe]

I didn't. I mean anything blue. Dort touch for the first frequency where.

[Bill Simmons]

I think every shot he's taking is Going in.

[Zach Lowe]

Toppin got what will go as an unheralded, really good contested defensive rebound.

[Bill Simmons]

Yep.

[Zach Lowe]

So defensive rebound by Toppin, immediate offensive put. Bunk put back dunk by Toppin on a Halliburton miss. And then Toppin switches onto J dub on the next possession and blocks him at the rim.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Three incredible Toppin plays in 45 seconds to swing the game from like really in the balance of that door. Three goes in or they get an offensive rebound or something to Indiana is now in full control of the game going down the stretch.

[Bill Simmons]

He's a classic nice guy to have in a playoff home game with an awesome crowd.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean that put back dunk, you.

[Bill Simmons]

Know who's like that for the. For the Celts. Robert Williams was like that. There's certain guys who are just like great playoff home game guys.

[Zach Lowe]

I actually thought about Robert Williams today for some reason during a meeting I had with somebody and we were. I was talking about a center that I was thinking about centers that can rim, run and pass and how rare that combination is and how it looked like Robert Lord Williams, one of those guys. And now it's like, where is he? What's happening?

[Bill Simmons]

Anyway, I allowed myself to think of the Celtics today as I was walking to the. Whatever the Indiana arena is called, which by the way has been around since Cambridge Field House 1999.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, it's one of. It might be my favorite arena.

[Bill Simmons]

Same year as Staples Center. The place is awesome and the Staples center should. Should be fumigated. But I was thinking as I was walking there a year ago I went to the two Dallas Celtic games in Dallas which were super fun and it really felt like the Celtics were going to win the title and this was. Hopefully this finals could be. And now the Celtics era is completely over. Everybody's being traded.

[Zach Lowe]

Wasn't game three the seminal Luko Wines at the refs and fouls out.

[Bill Simmons]

That was the Jaylen Brown Duncan traffic game. That was the Jaylen Brown won the finals MVP that game.

[Zach Lowe]

That was a crazy game to be at.

[Bill Simmons]

And that was the. Luca just found out. Oh my God. This is full circle. Kyrie. Kyrie is going to beat the Celtics in this game. I can't believe this is lined up. And then he actually missed some shots. We're going to take a break and a lot more to discuss about this game. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. Summer is here and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. What do I mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parmesan delivered. I love chicken parm. A day in the sun? No. A bottle of rum. Yes. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now for alcohol. You must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Let's talk about Indiana, the basketball city, because we're both here, which is a really special place and obviously I've talked about it a million times. It's the place of Hoosiers and Larry bird and it's 49 states and then there's Indiana, whatever the saying is. They show Oscar Robertson, courtside legend in high school in the 1950s. It's weird. Oscar doesn't really have a team in the NBA because he played for the Cincinnati Royals, that don't exist anymore. And then he was in the Bucks for a few years. But Indiana is kind of weirdly his team. Then they go back, they show Reggie Miller, they show Edgerton James.

[Zach Lowe]

That was a great one.

[Bill Simmons]

I was like, please show Larry legend. Where is he? But the crowd was just, you know, everyone's wearing jerseys. Everyone is like super optimistic. And a bunch of people are talking to me or yelling at me like, what do you think? What do you think? We got a chance, like, just like the happiest basketball place. So much fun to come here. And you made the key point. The arena is probably the best.

[Zach Lowe]

It's a great arena.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's number one for me.

[Zach Lowe]

Every seat is good, even the corners are good.

[Bill Simmons]

The crowd feels like they're on top of the game. When you have a game like today, I do think it affects the game because I think if you're the visiting team, it's just. It feels like the fans are on top of you in a slightly different way. And those fans are fantastic.

[Zach Lowe]

And boy, game four. I mean, look, Oklahoma City's had gut check moments in the Denver series. Down two one. That was a big test. Minnesota, I mean, up to one in Minnesota for game four. Semi gut check, little bit of a gut check. This is the ultimate. If you want to become a championship team, this is about as big of a game and as big of a test as you're going to face down 2:1 in the Finals on the road against a team that has proven itself championship caliber and that absolutely thinks we can do the whole thing. Like, there's no doubt. There's no if there were any doubt. And I don't really think there was There is no doubt anymore that like we could do the whole thing.

[Bill Simmons]

So the 2015 Warriors, I think they.

[Zach Lowe]

Did the whole thing well.

[Bill Simmons]

I think they fell behind two one in Memphis and hit that similar point. And they had to win Game 4.

[Zach Lowe]

In Memphis in the second round.

[Bill Simmons]

It wasn't like, no, this is way bigger stakes. But it was the same kind of with the younger teams. You have the chest hair game. I thought they already had the chest hair game. When the Denver series, you know they.

[Zach Lowe]

Had three of them.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, yeah, the four of them, if.

[Zach Lowe]

You included game six loss, was it game four.

[Bill Simmons]

All these games blend together. One of those game, Game four, Game.

[Zach Lowe]

Five, Game four and game five, they both won game four coming Game four in Denver. Game four in Denver. In a game where in game five they were behind and teetering. And then Wiggins, that was the Wiggins Wallace making shots against the zone and.

[Bill Simmons]

Jalen Williams hit the three and gave. Yeah, it was that stretch. I thought that's when they got through it. But now you're right. This is because I watched this happen. The reason I mentioned that Dallas Miami series at the top, you can think you're the better team and OKC is. Has a better team, they have a better team, but you still have to beat the other team four times. Indiana doesn't think OKC is better than them. They showed it today and at some point they're gonna have to go and take it. And when you're at these games, when you're in the room and you feel it slipping away, there's no other sport like it, like football, baseball, none of these hockey, none of these other sports have where you're watching it going. I can't believe this is how it's playing out. I remember in the Dallas Miami series and Jason Terry hit that crazy 30 foot 3 against Miami to quench. I think it was game 5. Hit the hand in with LeBron's hand in his face. Even when he was taking it, I was like, I can't believe Dallas is going to win game five. This is the most amazing thing I've ever seen. And then they won it. They win in six. So there's going to be a moment in game four when OKC is going to have to decide, is this really how our season's going to end? This is what's going to happen.

[Zach Lowe]

First of all, just for the record, the Cavs are up 2:1 over the warriors in the 2015 finals. So the warriors did have a game four on the road. And that's when they went Small and small.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you ever think that?

[Zach Lowe]

Cavs without Kyrie and starting Mozgov in a mon shot.

[Bill Simmons]

I never, I never felt the warriors.

[Zach Lowe]

Were in your podcast, Brian Windhorse.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I never felt like the warriors were in like major danger. It was weird. Memphis, I felt like they were. Was more dangerous for them because Memphis was so weird.

[Zach Lowe]

So here's the thing about, like you just said, Oklahoma City is a better team. I think we all think Oklahoma City's a better team.

[Bill Simmons]

Does it mean they're going to win the series?

[Zach Lowe]

No, but. And I can hear Indiana fans saying, hold on now. Like you erase our first 30 games when Halliburton is just finding his rhythm after a tough start and we get our defense together, Nemhard and Neesmith get healthy and back in the lineup. We can go toe to toe with anybody. And they were much better. Right. I'm just looking up the numbers now from February 1st till end of season. So half the season, basically Oklahoma City 31 and 5, net rating 13.7. Indiana 24 and 12 net rating 3.7. So getting, getting there, but like still kind of a big gap. From March 1st on, it gets narrower. Oklahoma City 20 and 3 plus 12.9. Indiana 17 and 7 plus 5.3. So yeah, the gap narrowed. But like this is still surprising that Indiana has gotten this good, this fast and kept trending up and kept narrowing that gap and now they're just, they're just as good. I mean, we gotta, we didn't talk enough about Matheran, your guy.

[Bill Simmons]

So he's the one guy in the team who feels like he can create his own shot against really good defense, no matter who's guarding him. Except for Lou Dort, who's a good reaper.

[Zach Lowe]

What was impressive to me was how calm he looked, just how easy those mid range jumpers look for him. Like I'm just, I'm just walking right into him, just strolling into it and maybe you got to pressure him more or whatever. There was a lot of commentary on Twitter about, you know, Oklahoma City's bigs are too far back on some of these. You know, I thought it was mostly good defense, like you just gotta make guys make shots. But he scored on jumpers, he scored on pull up threes, he scored on catch and shoot threes. He had a bunch of cuts in the first half, often off of McConnell actions and stuff where it's like he just had a very mature all around floor game that you don't necessarily associate with a guy that was kind of known as a Chucker. And he did a little bit of everything. He got transition points. Like a little bit of every part of his offensive game came out and they. And it was just.

[Bill Simmons]

And you know, he had 14 in the second quarter.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah. And he's like, you know, there's this whole thing of Indiana never tanks and they build from the middle. And that's largely true. He is the. He is the product of like, they're really only close to bottoming out season when they got the 6 pick and Jairus Walker is the other one and he's not playing. He's been injured and whatever. But like, they're now getting something from him. They're getting a lot from him. They're just like, they just have a lot of really good players.

[Bill Simmons]

I actually think Walker would have played in this series.

[Zach Lowe]

I do too.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I like Walker. 14 in the second quarter for him. It's a weird one because it feels like he's been on the trade block for about a year in some ways. Like, he does feel. He has felt available and he's always the person that gets brought up first. You said that earlier. When they talk about if they change the team, is he in it? If they try to upgrade, like, if they try to get like Cam Johnson or whoever. But I don't know, I like the vibe that he brings to them. This hit or miss, he can carry you for a quarter. Like, I really value guys like that. So there's this whole Peyton Pritchard was like that for the Celtics where he could just carry them for eight minutes out of nowhere. And you never knew when it was going to happen. And when it happened, it was like fucking. You felt like you found money in your pocket.

[Zach Lowe]

There's this whole debate with Matheran about, you know, he doesn't really play the pacer style. Like, the ball sticks with him a little bit more. He's not as intuitive, a quick twitch, quick pass, quick cut, decision maker as everybody else on the team. And I think I said this to you last time we podcasted, like, initially, I think that was thought of as like, eh, he's not that great of a fit. He doesn't play the way we feel. And the more I watch him, the more I'm like, every team kind of needs a curveball. That's that like, even the warriors, like Steve Kerr, like, it's. It's a. It's a little bit of a weird example to bring up now, but he would always be like, the reason I like Wiggins on our team is he can break away from our beautiful game cuts and just like get us a few buckets one on one when nothing else is working. We need that kind of guy on our team. I think he's like the curveball that to be a championship team, you kind of need. If you play if Indiana, if you play a style that's like Indiana, I think you need a guy who could be like, yeah, that style's cool, but I'm just going to do some like, traditional guy stuff, right? Be the guy.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't feel like he's as ball stoppy as he used to be.

[Zach Lowe]

No, he's gotten. He's gotten much better. And defensively he's gotten better too.

[Bill Simmons]

One thing I noticed, I wanted to talk to you because it's about as basketball nerdy as I'm going to get with you. You can go seven levels higher than me with some of the super nerd stuff and talk pin downs and double pin downs and reverse pin downs. Oh, yeah, upside down pin downs. How many pin downs are there?

[Zach Lowe]

I had a lot of pin downs. A lot of the Pacers are breaking up.

[Bill Simmons]

You can do a full pin down podcast. One thing I've noticed that these two teams specifically do, and I don't know if it's a trend and I don't know if it's something teams will copy when they watch this and see what's successful. They do it with Shea, with okc, and they do with Halburn, but then weirdly also with Matheran, where it's like the guy has the ball set him pick up top. He's moving around, he's moving back, he dumps it off, the ball immediately comes back to him and it's like this constant. It's almost like watching a hockey power play where they keep giving it back to the defenseman so he can reset whatever the attack on the net, and the ball just kind of keeps moving around. It's these little hockey passes versus, like how the Celtics play, where it's like we dribble up. I'm going to hunt this matchup. Come set me a pick. You three guys stand there. I'm just going to keep dribbling until I get the look I want, and then I'm going to shoot. Indy's doing a version of that in okcs2 where the ball is still moving around all the time, but they're doing the same thing. And I think it's way harder to stop. And I wonder if it's going to be something that's replicated next season. Was that coherent? Do you know what I mean?

[Zach Lowe]

Somewhat coherent. Yeah, it's. I mean, it's 12, 12, 20am A little groggy. You flew cross country.

[Bill Simmons]

I did.

[Zach Lowe]

You're doing great. I mean, Indiana definitely plays a more random, unpredictable style than Oklahoma City. And I just think.

[Bill Simmons]

But do you think that they. They deliberately don't want anybody to have the ball for more than, like, three, three and a half seconds? For sure. It seems like that's a real thing for them.

[Zach Lowe]

It can't be a hard and fast rule, because sometimes Siakam has a mismatch. You just got to give him the ball and let him.

[Bill Simmons]

So he'll back down. That's like the one time they'll mess around with it.

[Zach Lowe]

And Matheran, you know, will do his stuff. But, I mean, it's. You can only play that way if your best player, your offensive number one option, is a guy who wants to get off the ball fast, who. Who lives to get other people involved. And often, you know, Anthony Edwards is learning this in Minnesota. Like, if you get off the ball, you will often get it back. It will go all the way around to you because you will have compromised the defense with that first pass. And they'll be in rotation, and you'll be the guy who the ball should get back to in rotation. And Halliburton just plays that way. You can't play that way if your best player doesn't. Doesn't have that kind of basketball ethos to him. And he does.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Cause in person, you can watch. It's much easier to watch the people who don't have the ball. So I was watching some of the stuff Neesmith was doing in the second half as they're doing all the stuff on the top, and Halberton is dipping off. He's getting back, and they're moving around. They're trying to create mismatches, and he's in the corner. But then sometimes he would kind of creep in if the defender was falling asleep on him and see if he could get a little back cut, or he would dart in or he would try to get an offensive rebound. Everybody in that team is up to something. It's not a team where the guys are just like, I'll just be here in the corner. I hope it works out for you. You know what I mean?

[Zach Lowe]

So they are very. I talked about this on my Much My Nerdier podcast before on the pin down. But on the pin down with Zach.

[Bill Simmons]

Lowe, that'd be a good title.

[Zach Lowe]

But we're gonna get deep now, deep in Indiana Pace's lore right now. They are extremely proud of Neesmith for exactly what you just described. For learning how to move without the ball, to screen, to be random, to cut, to always be on his toes.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, remember in the Celtics, he just stood there. Well, that was one of the reasons. I mean, he was. Wasn't his fault. They just told him, go in the corner, you're not going to have the ball.

[Zach Lowe]

And you know what? The deep cut is the guy they give a lot of credit not only for that, but for his partnership with Halliburton. And Halliburton really leaning into a crazy motion get off the ball offense is a guy who's no longer on the Pacers. It's Buddy Hield. These coaches of the Pacers talk about Buddy Hield's lasting impact on Neesmith, on Halliburton and just how they play. Like comes up and they. And first of all, everybody loves Buddy Hield. He's the most gregarious personality. He's an extremely hard worker. He's a beloved teammate. Everybody loves Buddy Hield, but they talk about his impact in particular on exactly what you just described with Nismith more than anyone else on the team.

[Bill Simmons]

I wonder if it's replicable or I wonder if they just have been doing it for so long because OKC will have. They have their version of it. But then they also do what you talked about earlier, where it's just a lot of dribbling and the ball stops moving around in the same way.

[Zach Lowe]

And look, they made tough shots. Like if you tell you, if you said before the game, Chet, J Dub and Shea are going to combine for 70 points on like not great shooting. But let me see if I can do the math. 24 of 53 with a lot of free throws between them too. Like, it's not like they off their offensive rating for the game is. Is bad, but it. It didn't feel like. I mean, they got nothing from the bench. Hartenstein's first bad game of the series. Wiggins disappeared, got zero.

[Bill Simmons]

Heartstein thing is an issue that's. That'll be one of the topics tomorrow about maybe this is why they were so afraid to play the double bigs. Maybe this is. Maybe they anticipated this. Maybe there's stuff during the season that they saw with this matchup with him because I thought he looked a little gamey. I'm also like, if I'm Indiana, I'm delighted when. And I think Isaiah Joe's a good player. But every time somebody like Isaiah Joe or even Wiggins is in the game. I'm so happy that the fucking gauntlet of all those defenders aren't out there at the same time. Um, and conversely, I. I mean, watching what Nemard was trying to do to sga, and I thought that he got called for a couple chintzy fouls, watching how different SGA was, the moment Nemhard would come out of the game versus when Nemhard in, I thought was pretty interesting. It was like the straight jacket came off, basically.

[Zach Lowe]

Nemhardt is just awesome.

[Bill Simmons]

Pick 31.

[Zach Lowe]

I pick 31.

[Bill Simmons]

We're just never gonna be good at the draft. That's. That's what we learn over and over again. Pick 31. 30 guys over him.

[Zach Lowe]

Pick 31. And they got him. And the pick that became Ben Shepard in the same little, just random trade. I think it was one of the Caris Lavert trades. And Nemhart, eight points. Nothing. Stu jumps off the stat sheet. He's just an awesome basketball player. Like, I remember when he signed that contract, which was like 18, 19 million dollars a year. If you go back and read some of the reviews that, I don't know, that's like, a little too much for a team that's going to be up against the Texans. I remember just thinking, like, the guy's good. Like, a good player making $20 million. That's just what. That's just fine. Like, he's just a really good player. Are you ever unhappy when Andrew Nemhardt is on the floor? No matter what he's doing? It's like, I'm always happy to have that guy around, even if he's floating around on offense or not guarding the best guy or he's switched onto that guy. It's like he's going to do the right thing every single time. Even if the right thing is not something that you really notice.

[Bill Simmons]

He's also a dick, and I mean this as a compliment. He's got a dick side that's, like, very, very underground, but it'll come out once or twice a game. There's a moment in the game where SGA got fouled and then he tried. Was going for a continuation. Nemhard came in and basically did the second foul on him, and SGA didn't like it. He went to the ref to complain about the foul, and Nemhard just walked over right next to him and was just like, being a dick and was like, really? You're going to bitch about that? And was just kind of just trying to get under his skin a little bit, which he's been doing in every series and he loves it. And it's like a Canadian thing. He's doing like the Canadian playoff hockey thing. He's like the guys. Basically he'd be on Florida just like hitting somebody with his stick right after the West.

[Zach Lowe]

I love listening to you and Ryan talk about the Stanley cup finals a little bit. It made me want to get into the Stanley cup finals.

[Bill Simmons]

You would love it.

[Zach Lowe]

Florida's apparently has got a lot of hateable guys.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, Nemart wouldn't even crack the top five for. What's the score?

[Zach Lowe]

Who's winning this year?

[Bill Simmons]

Do they play Florida's up?

[Zach Lowe]

Do they all. Do they alternate so at least we can go NBA finals anymore? Yeah, they do.

[Bill Simmons]

They try to steer clear from NBA. Yeah. No, that game three was the classic where Florida took a big lead and then we just had to have fights. Each team has to lay down their. Their masculinity on the other team.

[Zach Lowe]

I will never get over that fighting is just allowed in hockey. I just, I. I just.

[Bill Simmons]

It's crazy. The one that's really crazy is professional. There's professional lacrosse stuff where they can fight. In hockey you have skates like you only can get so much leverage if you're lacrosse. You can really like, you know, plant and sock somebody. I'm kind of surprised at lacrosse fights. All right. More stuff from this game.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah. Go.

[Bill Simmons]

Okc. Starting five with Wallace. Do we see anything different in game four, which I think we both agree is a backs to the wall game for OKC. Because if you go down 3:1 with game six looming, I don't care how good you are, that's a place that only a few teams in the history of the league has come back from.

[Zach Lowe]

I think the only move I'm going to guess. No, I think the only reasonable move unless it's something out of left field like we're going to just start Kendrick Williams and see what happens. In the case of Wallace spot, I think the only move is to start Caruso over. Wallace, that's what I had as well. And I don't really know that anything that happened today screams for that being necessary, but.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I don't love the plus minus stat, but did you see the plus minus stat?

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah. Caruso. Well, Caruso was minus 15 today and Wallace was minus 10. So take, take whichever you like. But I mean Caruso's and Caruso played 32 minutes and I don't know how much more than that he's going to play play even if you start him or not. But he is better than Kayson Wallace.

[Bill Simmons]

And well, I do wonder, like we see these coaches further. You get in the playoffs, that rotation starts to tighten, right? And OKC is an unusual team because like even today they played 11 minutes, like legitimately. I mean 11 guys played. Kenrich Williams only played two minutes. But they still, they played 11 minutes.

[Zach Lowe]

Ken Rich Williams took. Do you remember the shot he took?

[Bill Simmons]

It wasn't great.

[Zach Lowe]

Just got the ball at the three point arc, jab step like 28ft from the room. Like, I guess I'm just gonna shoot now. It's like one of those possessions where.

[Bill Simmons]

It'S like, hey, I'm in the finals. I get. I'm gonna take a three. I just feel like you're probably good with nine guys, maybe 10 max. But if you're down, usually what we see teams shorten the rotation, go to eight, maybe seven playing big minutes. I had the same thought. I wonder if Caruso just starts and maybe they do it that way. The only other one I was thinking was would they start Isaiah Joe for some just a weird three point look out of nowhere for seven minutes trying to get the point.

[Zach Lowe]

That's another out of left field one. I don't see it. The other thing that's interesting is in the last two games we've seen zero of the no big man lineup. And I thought that lineup did not. I think the plus minus was not good in game one, but I still thought it was something I would try if I were the Thunder. I'm a little surprised that they've gone like completely away from it. I would like to see that as like a four minute. Just blitz them with switching and swiping and steals and see. See if that can just like muck up the game a little bit with even more speed than we normally have.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, neither of us work for ESPN anymore, but I think we have.

[Zach Lowe]

I don't.

[Bill Simmons]

We have to do a segment. We're both gone. We have to do a segment called Step Up. Okay, who's got to step up? I'm looking at the box score right now and case I. Wallace, I don't know if you need to step up. Isaiah Hartenstein, you need to step up. Miles Turner maybe needs to step up.

[Zach Lowe]

Isaiah Hart said, the thirty million dollar man.

[Bill Simmons]

You were the big franchise edition.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, four and three. No, I know. That's the thing is like I. I think that was just a really nice competitive basketball.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe SGA, slight step up. Well, that's. Let's talk about that 10% step up.

[Zach Lowe]

24 points 6 turnovers, 4 assists, 20.

[Bill Simmons]

Shots, 24 points, 42 minutes.

[Zach Lowe]

It took us too long to get here. Yeah, he did not play a good enough game.

[Bill Simmons]

He didn't. He didn't. He.

[Zach Lowe]

Took us too long to get to SJ. We're so in love with the McConnells and the Mathurin's and the Toppins. Took us too long to get to SJ because he didn't play. He was like good or it's a B minus SGA game.

[Bill Simmons]

Probably I would go C plus, C plus. So here was the vibe I got from him in this game. It reminded me of fiba. As you know, I'm one of the only people that loves all the FIBA games in the Olympics when the rules are different and we send the guys over there and they think they're going to get a call and they don't get it and then they do another and they don't get the call and.

[Zach Lowe]

They'Re just kind of are you going free throw Merchant?

[Bill Simmons]

Is that where you're going with us not going Merchant? It just felt like he was getting defended in a way that he didn't really adjust to as well that well. He was trying to bounce off guys. There was one time where he did get the hook arm. He did that a couple times. But for the most part I thought the refs called him really fairly. I thought they called both sides. The Indiana crowd was probably madder than maybe they should have been. But they're a home crowd. They're doing. But I thought for the most part they allowed a lot of physicality on both sides and I don't know if that's great for him.

[Zach Lowe]

I and I also thought again, like with the exception of their, their big man point of attack defense on some pick and rolls like Miles Turner, Thomas Bryant thought their defense was pretty good and I thought their off ball defense, I again, I'll go back and watch it tomorrow. But just like they're stunting back and forth on his pick and rolls. They're trying to make him a decision maker and cloud his decision making. And I thought they did a good job of that tonight. Like a lot of the, a few of his turnovers were bad pass turnovers on the pick and roll where he was kind of caught in between reads a little bit and didn't quite know what to do with it. I thought they're def. And they started doubling him. He loves to do the thing where he drives to like the deadest dead spot on the floor, the spot that nobody ever wants the ball in. Which is like 18ft from the rim on the baseline. Because he's. He just thinks no one is going to come help here. It's just going to be me because who's going to double here? And the Pacers, as. As the Wolves did a little bit in the last series, started springing doubles on him there.

[Bill Simmons]

Kept coming over.

[Zach Lowe]

We're just not going to give you this shot. We're going to force you to pass it. And one. And once they gave up a bat, they. Their rotations were bad. Isaiah Joe hit a wide open three. Like the one guy you absolutely cannot leave open on Oklahoma City. But other than that, their rotations were pretty good. And, you know, I just think, you know, again, Rick Carlisle is very good at not overdoing anything. Like, just because they did that a few times today and it worked, they may not do it the first couple times Shay goes to that spot in Game four.

[Bill Simmons]

They did a nice job. It didn't feel like he was going downhill as much as he normally does in playoff games when he's just scoring 36 to 38 points. My guess would be he's going to be awesome in Game four.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean, Game two was just a spectacular.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that was an A plus today. It was a C plus.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah. And when.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, maybe they stumbled on something.

[Zach Lowe]

I was an easy teacher, so I'd give them a B minus. But when the MVP has a B minus, C plus, like, you're vulnerable.

[Bill Simmons]

My grades for today, the Indiana crowd was an A plus. The A plus, superb job by them. I have no notes. Just keep doing what you're doing. Indiana. And I loved having Oscar Robertson and Reggie Miller there. And Larry Legend should be here for Game four if they really want to bring the roof down. Fucking private Jason.

[Zach Lowe]

Mark Jackson was here.

[Bill Simmons]

Mark Jackson was there.

[Zach Lowe]

Mark Jackson was up in a suite.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought Hal Burton was probably an A. I think he was. The A plus would have been the Game four Knick series. I really liked some of the stuff he was doing on defense. I thought he was active and problematic for OKC, but I thought he was fantastic. Toppan gets an A minus for me. Matheran gets an A. TJ McConnell probably a B plus. I didn't like a couple of the turnovers.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

And then for okc, I really liked what Jalen Williams did in that game. I thought they relied on him in kind of a shocking way offensively, where it almost felt like they were 1A, 1B. Little Jaylen Brown, Jason Tatemish.

[Zach Lowe]

It does feel like the more stress they get put under and the fewer easy transition baskets they get when that's when they get rolling right. Like, and that's when their passing gets unleashed and they get alley oops and all that. It does feel like for not all the time, not even for the majority of the time, but for segments of each of these games, high pressure games that there's not as much synergy between Shay and J Dub as you would like there to be. For Dueling Banjos, a little bit of like, like they'll be, wow, there's been a lot of Jalen Williams going on, right? And Shay's kind of standing in the corner like, okay, now there's a lot of Shay going on and you would just like a little bit more possessions when there's like a lot of both going on. That's all.

[Bill Simmons]

We're going to take a break and then I have a really important subject to bring up about this series that's. That's. I could see getting cut out in a social media video.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, boy.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. This episode is brought to you by McDonald's. All new McCrispy strips. New McCrispy strips are here. Chicken made for dipping. Tender, juicy white meat Chicken with a golden brown peppery breading. This sounds delicious. It's chicken so good it deserves its own sauce. That's right, the Creamy Chili McCrispy Strip Dip. It's creamy, savory and sweet with a little heat. But strips work with any of their sauces. I'm actually still a big fan of the buffalo sauce look. New McCrispy strips and dip sounds fantastic. And it's only at McDonald's. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. During the season, every baseball team plays one hundred and sixty two games. It's a true test of endurance. It's not enough to have a hot month or two. You need sustained dominance throughout. Well, the same is true for your small business. It's not enough to have a great Q2 or even a great year. You want year over year growth that starts with better hires that'll be there for the long haul. To find Those hires, use LinkedIn. LinkedIn has strong hiring data and insights that you won't find anywhere else to help pair you with the best candidates. From unique skills and interests to the connections you have in common. Based on LinkedIn data, 72% of small businesses say that LinkedIn helps them find high quality talent. LinkedIn also lets you go beyond people who are actively applying. In a given week, 171 million LinkedIn members aren't actively seeking jobs but they are open to new opportunities. That's a big pool to miss out on. If you're not hiring with LinkedIn, find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com Simmons that's LinkedIn.com Simmons to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra, the official beer partner of the NBA. What do I love about the NBA championship? Well, first of all, I love when the Celtics win. But that's not happening this year. But you know what I really love? The drama, the pressure. Everything goes to the highest level. Guys are injured, guys are banged up, guys are hungry. It just brings out the best of everything. And Michelob Ultra is helping you celebrate like a champion with a chance to win your own limited edition championship bottle. Just like those gifted to the NBA players during the championship parade. Enter now at michelobulture.com courtsidechampsbottles Michelob Ultra Courtside Victor Solomon Champs Bottle sweepstakes. No purchase necessary. Open to US residents 21/ends June 22, 2025. See official rules at Michelob ultra.com/rules for free entry, prizes and details. Message and data rates may apply. Void where prohibited. All right, coming back, social media segment time. Okay, you want to say it? I'll let you do it.

[Zach Lowe]

Kyle, turn the TikTok camera on.

[Bill Simmons]

If OKC loses this series.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, boy, here we go. You can't resist going to the end. We're in the middle. Let's enjoy the middle.

[Bill Simmons]

I wasn't allowing myself or even considering it was a possibility until I was in that arena tonight when realizing that OKC has to figure out how to win in that arena either Friday night or next week or they're not going to win the title.

[Zach Lowe]

It's good math. Your math is right.

[Bill Simmons]

If they don't win the title, this would be an absolute historic basketball calamity because they had one of the greatest seasons of all time and start to finish. I'm not saying they're one of the greatest teams of all time, but they had One of the 7, 8, 9, 10, whatever list you want to do. From net ratings to actual record to dominance to 15, 20 point wins, it was one of the best seasons anyone's ever had. And to then go to the finals and lose, you're in rare ground. You're in 2016 Warriors. Draymond punching LeBron in the balls and Steph playing on an injured ankle and Festa Zazili being trapped on an island against LeBron for two straight threes and all of a sudden we've lost. What the hell happened? This does not happen a lot in basketball. Usually the right team, usually the better team, usually the team that has the best season wins the title. But then occasionally that's not what happens. And this is one of those times.

[Zach Lowe]

It would be interesting to look back at most dominant teams that didn't win.

[Bill Simmons]

It's the shortest.

[Zach Lowe]

I remember doing this last year when Boston was on the verge of winning the title because of their. What did they win 66 games last year or something like that?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, when you get, when you get into the 80 win territory as a team, when you're 80, 18, 82 and 20, like.

[Zach Lowe]

But I remember going through Basketball Reference and doing the wins, regular season wins, regular season, net rating, playoff net rating and how many teams checked every box at a certain level of eliteness or whatever, like just narrowing it down or finagling the numbers in different ways. And let's just say when The Thunder were up 20 against Minnesota, I reread that. The piece that I ended up writing about Boston and where that Boston team place in history should be and would be compared to those other games, which.

[Bill Simmons]

Was a pure math case and just.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, no, it just like. But it wasn't a pure math.

[Bill Simmons]

No, just like record stats.

[Zach Lowe]

My the ultimate conclusion, which I think was right and a lot of people made it, was the math. Says that Celtics team is like way up here. I think they're probably a little bit like really great team, but with some of the other just like really great teams. Not as up here as the message, but anyway, I just cut and pasted that and put it in an email to myself to have it fresh in preparation for what looked like. I mean when they were up 20 against Minnesota, it was like, are they just going to win? Are they not losing for the rest of the season?

[Bill Simmons]

Like that guy led my podcast that night that way. Like, did they just arrive?

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, I mean I just. Are they just going to go 60 and the playoffs are going to be over before we know it and now and again like the net rating can be what it is like. And again the Pacers became a very good team. The signs were all there, but there was still a difference between what Oklahoma City was resume wise of what the pacers were last 40 games even resume wise Calamity. I mean, I just think you have to give the credit to the Pacer. Something magical has happened here and there's still a long way from finishing it off. Like this is Going to be very hard to do against a great team that's still probably favored. I would like to look.

[Bill Simmons]

That's good. That's a good segment. Magical or calamity?

[Zach Lowe]

Magic.

[Bill Simmons]

Magical. Calamity.

[Zach Lowe]

Calamity.

[Bill Simmons]

I think you're right in that the story leans more toward. This is one of the most incredible stories in the history of the NBA that the Snappers team won the title. Something happened here, but I also think another piece would be, Holy shit. OKC checked every box we ever thought we'd have to check for a team that was going to win the title, and they didn't win the title.

[Zach Lowe]

Except for one box that you've already brought up. Youth, age. Yeah, veteran, whatever.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, that's the scary. That's the scariest thing with them is if they, you know, if they end up winning the title, I don't feel like they're close to being the team they're probably going to be two years from now. If everyone's healthy. They're just going to be better.

[Zach Lowe]

They're going to be better. And like, the poster guy for that to me is Chet. I was talking to Drew Hanlon before the game. He works with Chet among many other people, and I was just saying to him, like, I watch Chet in these games, and he's missed so much time in his brief NBA career, and he'll do three or four things every game. Where I'm like, is he just kind of scratching the surface of what he's going to do offensively? Like, is he even doing 50% of what he's going to be able to do offensively? Drew's response was enthusiastic. Yes, like, there's a lot more there. And I won't go into the conversation anymore, but he's the guy.

[Bill Simmons]

So you're saying Drew Hanlon talked about one of the players he was training?

[Zach Lowe]

Well, we just. I talked about it and he, like, nodded.

[Bill Simmons]

Kidding.

[Zach Lowe]

But. But, like, I. Yeah, I mean.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I think he's right because it's funny. Van. Van texted me a couple days ago and was like, how good is Chet? I'm like, what do you mean? It's like, is it like, is there more here? Is this it? And I was like, I actually think there's way, way, way more here. Because even in college, the way they used him at Gonzaga, he'd be at the top of the key and he would almost like a little like how Duke used Cooper flag last year where, like, he was a little point forwardy sometimes. But I think there's this whole other level where you could run offense through him at the top of the key and he could either fake threes or go, you know, kick out. There's a post up game that I'll probably have what, four years from now.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean, in the first quarter of that game he had a coast to coast take around Miles Turner and then he had a little short roll where Miles Turner was there like on the catch and he just took like one dribble pivot step back like 12 footer or 15 footer. It was like, God damn, that's a tough shot.

[Bill Simmons]

This seems pretty amazing. I.

[Zach Lowe]

They're down 2:1 in the finals to the Indiana Pacers.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm going to go on FanDuel right now. What do you think the line is.

[Zach Lowe]

Oklahoma City minus 110. But I have no. To be clear to the listeners, I have no idea how any of this works.

[Bill Simmons]

OKC minus 235.

[Zach Lowe]

That's. Wow.

[Bill Simmons]

Wow, that's a thing.

[Zach Lowe]

Wasn't it minus 350 or something coming into this game? So this win, I guess it's a home win at two.

[Bill Simmons]

No, it jumped up to the five hundreds again after they won game two. Everyone and their brother had OKC and five as their finals pick. Did you have it? I had it. We're wrong.

[Zach Lowe]

We're officially wrong.

[Bill Simmons]

Three games into the series, everyone was wrong. And I didn't want to do it because everyone had it. I wanted to zag. And I just couldn't figure out how Indiana was going to win two games. And now we know that game one game, that comeback and Halliburton, the shoddy hits and that's how you. Could that be how the entire series swings? I don't know. All right, predictions for game four. And then I have some trade stuff to ask you about.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, good. I like a 1245.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Super groggy.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you had one thing on your pod I really want to dive into.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, predictions for game four. I'm just going to say Oklahoma City wins a very close game, but Oklahoma City 118, Indiana 114.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, can we talk? What? Maybe neither team because they're both pretty young. Who has an advantage from that game today that we just went to was like a playoff game and a half.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Incredibly physical, up and down, intense, emotional. And now they gotta play on Friday. And I can't decide who that's more of a detriment to. My guess is the home crowd probably helps Indiana more. OkC. I have my eye on Chet. Cause I really thought he looked wiped out. In the fourth quarter, he was the one out of all the OKC guys that I thought looked like he was spent sga. Maybe, I don't know. Maybe that's. But on the other side, Hal Burton. I don't know. My guess is it's going to be kind of an ugly, dramatic game and it'll be decided by somebody weird.

[Zach Lowe]

I like it. I'm going Oklahoma City by 4.

[Bill Simmons]

I would pick OKC as well. OKC is favored by 6. I would not do that.

[Zach Lowe]

That's a lot. It's a lot of points. But I bet for, for Thunder, even Thunder playoff games, that's not very many points.

[Bill Simmons]

I love this series and I don't care what the ratings are. And if casual fans don't care because famous people that they knew or famous franchises aren't in it, you know what, why do we need them? The NBA just signed an 11 year media deal. I'm fine. I love basketball. That game was awesome. I like that we have two new teams that are now in the fray and I think this finals is a win. And guess what? Indiana is a really small city and so is Oklahoma City. Shit happens.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, the MVP is in the series, right? That should be a very famous player. You and Ryan talked about how he's maybe not one of the 10 most famous players in the league.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a little Mick Troutish.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay. But he is the mvp and no matter who the teams are, if it's a long series, the ratings will go up as the series goes on. So I. Yeah, but I'll speak.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, what was the last great finals?

[Zach Lowe]

Great.

[Bill Simmons]

The last great finals. 2013.

[Zach Lowe]

No, 2016 has to be the baseline.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh,2016.

[Zach Lowe]

Everything after that is Warriors 16 and 13. Warriors, Raptors, bubble Bucks, Buck Suns was a great finals. It was just weird because the crowd. Weren't we still in like half field? Yeah, it was a little like. That was a great. That's an underrated finals. That was a really good Finals.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that's a good call. All right, so buck Suns 16, Warriors, Cavs 13, Spurs, Heat. I think is the best finals of the last 15 years.

[Zach Lowe]

Those two back to back, they're almost like Rocky 1 and Rocky 2. Like they should all be one movie.

[Bill Simmons]

But they. Miami broke in the second finals.

[Zach Lowe]

That. Yeah, but that's. But that's part of why it's like all one movie.

[Bill Simmons]

And then 11, 11 finals. Mavs versus Heat.

[Zach Lowe]

Great one.

[Bill Simmons]

Tremendous 2010 Lakers, Celtics. Dramatic. But the basketball I don't think was that great.

[Zach Lowe]

Ugly.

[Bill Simmons]

Trying to think what else. Yeah, I think those are probably the best ones of the century.05 Piston spurs the game seven was kind of a dud for game seven.

[Zach Lowe]

Ugly and ratings were nobody wanted.

[Bill Simmons]

You know what's a good One was the 2000 Pacers Lakers series. That's a really fun series. If you go back and look through.

[Zach Lowe]

Those games, that's a great Kobe game. Game 4 When Shaq fouls out.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, quickly. So you had. You were talking about Durant and you said watch out for the Clippers, which I had kind of heard rumblings of myself and I think Durant's going in the Spurs. I'm just going to slap it down a second time. I think that's how it plays out for sure.

[Zach Lowe]

The two teams that there's the most buzz about are the spurs and the Wolves.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. So the Wolves gets more complicated because.

[Zach Lowe]

The Wolves one just breaks my brain. I don't know how it's going to work.

[Bill Simmons]

Julius Randle and Nas Reed have to be involved somehow.

[Zach Lowe]

You could do a Go Bear one. You can do Go Bear plus Steven Shenzo one.

[Bill Simmons]

Why did the Suns want Gobert?

[Zach Lowe]

I mean, Booker Gobert is something. Something. If you want to stay competitive because you don't have any control of your draft picks because you've ish be it all of them away.

[Bill Simmons]

Would you take Vassell 14, Harrison Barnes expiring and a good first?

[Zach Lowe]

Yes for Durant, I would. I don't even think this. I don't know how. The biggest mystery in the league right now is how aggressive the spurs are actually going to get. And I think that's code for they're going to start with no number two, no Castle, no Vassell and negotiate from there. I think that's what I would guess that they're going to do. Like 2 and Castle are just out.

[Bill Simmons]

They should be. Katie's 37 and he's 50 a year and he's got one year left on his deal and he's been in the league for 18 years.

[Zach Lowe]

There's the subplot I forgot to get into on my podcast. The two year, $112 million extension he.

[Bill Simmons]

Signed with Jim, aka the Jimmy Butler. Do you do the one extra or the two extra?

[Zach Lowe]

Do the Suns? A, is there a team that will trade for him? Not caring whether he signs it or not, not even wanting him to sign it? Maybe. B, will the Suns. Just the Suns, I assume. And I. I'm thinking we'll just trade them wherever. Like, if this seems not on your list, too bad. We're trading you to whoever gives us the best package. There's no list. There's no list anymore.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't. I think after how they handled February, it seems like they're working with rich Klein and KD's guy. It seems like they're being cooperative because the way they handled it in February was not the way things usually go in the NBA.

[Zach Lowe]

What if the Toronto Raptors are just like, you know what? We're going to try for a Kawhi 2.0 moonshot? Here's the best package you're going to get. Katie doesn't want to go there. We don't even care if you sign the extension.

[Bill Simmons]

You know who I don't want to deal with is a semi or unhappy Kevin Durant.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm just not messing with that.

[Zach Lowe]

So. But, like, what?

[Bill Simmons]

He should go to the Spurs. That's how it's going to play out.

[Zach Lowe]

Is he going to be happy with the spurs just because he decides he wants to go to the Spurs?

[Bill Simmons]

Here's the case for the Spurs. He went to the University of Texas. He loves Texas. He talks about it all the time. He's always respected the Spurs. He'll be like the respected veteran on that team. People in Texas like him. The only two places he's ever really fit in, in a way, where he loved the city was Texas and Seattle.

[Zach Lowe]

He picked the Nets.

[Bill Simmons]

Picked the Nets. But he picked the team that was like the black sheep of the New York basketball scene.

[Zach Lowe]

And he picked the Suns.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

And he was 0 for 2 in happiness levels. And he was unhappy in Golden State at the end, too.

[Bill Simmons]

But, I mean, obviously he was unhappy the last year and a half for Gold State.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So I think he would be happy on this verse.

[Zach Lowe]

I hope so. I mean, Kevin Durant is an awesome, awesome basketball player. I love everything.

[Bill Simmons]

If you're the spurs and you can keep enough stuff left to also make a Giannis run, you're doing it. And by the way.

[Zach Lowe]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Whoa, whoa.

[Zach Lowe]

What can they. Is that even, like.

[Bill Simmons]

Sure.

[Zach Lowe]

They've given away. They gave some of their picks away, including the Minnesota pick and the Fox deal. People forget, like, Deer and Fox is like a for. It's like they've. He's like a. We barely got to see it. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't forget because it's weird because they end up with number two pick. And guess what? I'm not sure they would have done the Deer and Fox trade if they knew that had happened. Well, I think they. Because Dylan Harper and Darren Fox, even though they're completely different players, neither of them are great shooters. I don't know. It's a. It's a little. They have to take Harper, it sounds like, but it's a little bit of a weird mix. Then he's throwing Castle, too. I don't.

[Zach Lowe]

I think they're. It would be so fascinating to be in their meetings right now because, you know, fox is late 20s, right? Wembanyamba's super young. The rest of the team is super young. Durant's 37. The. How much of our. How much of our Wemby timeline are we actually willing to sacrifice for a guy who's, you know, closer to 40 than he is to 30? And how good in the west are we actually? That's what you have to look in the mirror and say. If we have, like, Fox, Durant, Wembanyama, let's say they even keep the Castle. Castle, who's left on our bench? Like, Sohan is maybe going out in that trade. Barnes is going on that trade. Is Kelton Johnson going out in that trade? Do we. Are we actually a championship contender? Is Wembanyama already that good? Do we know enough about the Fox? Wembanyama fit that in the game.

[Bill Simmons]

Our number two pick. Play real minutes for us and help.

[Zach Lowe]

Us right away in the West. Are we. Are we actually? Can we win three playoff series in the West?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, that's why if you do the Durant thing, you're signing him for.

[Zach Lowe]

You.

[Bill Simmons]

Know, it's for at least two years would be my guess. I mean, I don't understand the minute.

[Zach Lowe]

Do you want Durant on a two year, $112 million extension?

[Bill Simmons]

Takes care of his body and.

[Zach Lowe]

But would you go to him and.

[Bill Simmons]

Be like, hey, no, I would want him to take less because there was two options, right? He could take 124 as well. And I was like, the 124 made me blink.

[Zach Lowe]

That's. He's got to. He's got to wait, I think, a certain amount of time.

[Bill Simmons]

He's got to wait six months and he could get that one.

[Zach Lowe]

You know, I remember hearing stuff like, you know, as he. As he and his people and the Suns sort of negotiate his post Phoenix landing spot, which might be the. This might be the last thing. Like, this might be the last chapter of Kevin Durant's basketball career comes home to Texas, he should really want to get it right. Would he ever be like, you know, in this Second Apron era, Team X, you're, you know, you're going to be coming up against it. Like, I'll do two years, 60, I'll do like.

[Bill Simmons]

Or maybe he just wants the one year because he wants to play in this goofy rival league that I talked about with Chuck Holsterman the other day. This, this F1 International Basketball League that is, I think, a little closer to actually being real than a lot of people have. That's a big one to give a credit for.

[Zach Lowe]

It's a big curveball, I don't think.

[Bill Simmons]

It's not a real thing. I like doing the double knots now. Is it harder to aggregate me?

[Zach Lowe]

I mean, let's just imagine. No, I'm not even going to do it. I'm not going to imagine this. I'm just going to walk that all the way back. Before I say it, I'm just saying Durant taking less is a conversation I would want to have with him. Like, are you actually willing to do this to help us build out this team? Not saying you should.

[Bill Simmons]

I brought this up because I'm saying.

[Zach Lowe]

That I think it's an idea that he's probably thought about himself.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, yeah. And also, these guys have made staggering amounts of money on the court and off the court. And at some point, this is what Tom Brady did in the Patriots for the last 10 years. He was there and he made the money back off the court. This episode is brought to you by Wayfair. Summer is almost here. The days are getting longer and warmer, which means it's time to update your outdoor space and make it feel more like yours. You know, outdoor furniture, I like comfortability. It's gotta be something that if it gets a little rainy, damp, anything maybe you want stuff that you don't have to cover all the time just in case it's drizzling for five seconds. You want just a nice, clean, simple. Let's all go hang out. It's gonna be getting dark by 8:45 tonight. Let's go hang out. Let's listen to some music. I got the Bushra eight piece sectional seating group with cushions. That's great, Wayfair. Perfect. Helps you in a time crunch. The delivery free, fast, hassle free. Something for every style, every home, no matter what your space or budget is. Wayfair makes it easy to tackle your summer home goals. And you got to do it right now because summer's coming with endless inspiration for every space and budget, including the outdoors. So don't wait until summer's in full swing shift. Shop a huge selection of outdoor furniture online. Go comfortable, go simple. This summer, get outside with wayfair. Head to wayfair.com right now. W A Y F A I R.com Wayfair Every style, every Home this episode is brought to you by the US Bank Smartly Visa Signature Card. With the US Bank Smartly Visa Signature card, you earn an unlimited 2% cash back on every purchase. That's right, you heard me. Every purchase, 2% cash back at restaurants, 2% cash back at the gym, groceries. Oh yeah, you earn 2% back on that too. New tires, new outfits, New York City getaway. All earned 2% cash back. Noticing a trend. So whether you're splurging on concert tickets, fueling up for your commute, or shopping for that perfect birthday gift for the bestie, you'll be earning unlimited 2% cash back on every purchase. Visit usbank.com smartlycard to learn more. The creditor and issuer of this card is U.S. bank National Association. Pursue it to a license from Visa USA Inc. Some restrictions may apply. You mentioned the Clippers for him and that's how this whole thing started. Because I had heard there was a little Clippers buzz. I can't figure out how it works. There'd have to be a third team. That third team would have to be really excited about acquiring James Harden or Norm Powell and Bogdanovich together.

[Zach Lowe]

I think he goes there to play with Harden, Durant.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Zach Lowe]

I think that's part of why the Clippers have at least.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, so from the sense like I'm not. Is Zubatz in the deal? He's not. Okay, fuck off.

[Zach Lowe]

And I think that's why the. As I said, I think that's why the Clippers will not end up with Kevin Durant.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. So can we just shut that down? Because Zubatz isn't going to be in the deal. I mean, I'm sure the Clippers would love to have Kevin Durant shut it down if you want. Are you going to actually trade something for him? Because you're not getting it for Norm Powell and Batum and Chris Dunn and Bogdanovich and a shitty pick.

[Zach Lowe]

You have to really think that the Suns would value the Clippers unprotected 2030 pick, a Clippers unprotected 2031 swap and a Clippers unprotected 2032 pick. Like really? Just as the Thunder have profited by betting against the Clippers long term future, the Suns think, well, they're.

[Bill Simmons]

So you're saying the Suns the stupidest team in the 21st century since the mid 2000s. Knicks with draft Picks like nobody has been more reckless and stupid with the concept of future picks maybe since Ted steepe in the 80s. That Bradley Beal trade and all the swaps and shit they did is some of the stupidest shit in the recent history of the league. So you're saying now that they would care about getting swaps with the Clippers? I think that there's no way.

[Zach Lowe]

I just don't think, I don't think.

[Bill Simmons]

They value draft picks.

[Zach Lowe]

The Suns are going to have to look in the mirror and think and like we traded present talent, really good present day talent and really good every pick we had to get Kevin Durant. Now we're trading Kevin Durant and we're not going to be able to have the buffet of everything that we, that we traded for him. We're going to have to choose on a sliding scale of salary relief, which is very important to us, draft picks and win now talent because Devin Booker is still on our team and we're just not going to check all those boxes to the degree that we want.

[Bill Simmons]

No, they Basically, they spent $10 million on a house that was worth 7 and now they have to sell it for 5 and that's it. And it was like, whoa, I should get 10, I paid 10. It's like you're getting five and look, that's how this is playing out.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm. I have no idea what's going to happen with Devin Booker. I really do believe there is that from what I've heard that Devin Booker really likes the idea of being a one team player, like a Kobe for Phoenix. He's talked a lot about Kobe Bryant, what he means to him and all that. But if they come out of this trade with something that doesn't excite me for the next two or three years, like a player that I could be like, oh, this guy's fun to play with. And we know the Beal thing is not going anywhere. You know, he won't be on. He's not a long term part of the Phoenix Suns future. I'm looking around if I'm Devon Booker.

[Bill Simmons]

Like.

[Zach Lowe]

Is there a plan here of any, like what is happening? Like, and he's already talked about, you know, we were so close in the finals not that long ago and now what's happened to our team and if.

[Bill Simmons]

You'Re Matt Ishbia, you have to look in the mirror and you wonder, wait, that's Isaiah Thomas standing right behind me. Doesn't even work for me. Oh wait, he does. He's my conciliary for Some reason, but we're all pretending he's not. Boy, there's some good stories about that one.

[Zach Lowe]

It's not great.

[Bill Simmons]

In Phoenix, have you heard the stories about how he facetimes in the meetings?

[Zach Lowe]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Might have been a coach interview or two or more where he was on FaceTime in the meeting.

[Zach Lowe]

Everybody say, Nick rocks. One, two, three.

[Bill Simmons]

Nick rocks.

[Zach Lowe]

One, two, Three. Jordan Ott rocks. Jordan Knott does rock, by the way. He's gonna be a good coach.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm putting the odds. I'm putting the odds on Giannis getting traded this summer at minus, not getting traded at like, minus 400. I think he stays.

[Zach Lowe]

That's a lot.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he stays in Milwaukee, and I think he wants to stay.

[Zach Lowe]

They definitely want him to stay.

[Bill Simmons]

I think there's going to be less action than people think, because then Garland got the toe surgery. So cross him out.

[Zach Lowe]

I wouldn't have traded Garland anyway.

[Bill Simmons]

Probably Cleveland. I would if you gave me something incredible back for him.

[Zach Lowe]

So Giannis, he's also had a couple tweets about getting back to the Finals. I hope we get back to the Finals. The last couple days, he had the.

[Bill Simmons]

Interview where he talked about the Bucks getting back to the Finals.

[Zach Lowe]

I would still go not minus 400. I would go like minus 200 or so.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. Do you see his I miss Woj tweet? I thought that was weird.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, that didn't really. Didn't really get.

[Bill Simmons]

Where does he feel like things are being misreported?

[Zach Lowe]

I mean, I miss Woj, but I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

The insinuation from a tweet like that is things are getting misreported, which I actually agree with, because he's never said anything other than he's going to be back in Milwaukee. And even when Shams did that weird media thing on that Monday where it's like, he's open to the possibility. It's like, did he ask for a trade? He didn't. So he's open to thinking about the future. Okay, cool. Who doesn't think about the future? It's not a story.

[Zach Lowe]

I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a story if he says, giannis went to the Bucks today and said, I think I'm ready to be traded. But by all accounts, he hasn't said that. And by the way, if you're Giannis, I'm watching this Pacers team that is now two wins from the Finals and has won 14 playoff games. And I'm like, we were right there with those dudes in round one. They Lost in five, but they lost two of the stupidest games of the playoffs to them.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah. The only problem after round one comes round two, round three and round four.

[Bill Simmons]

I get it. But I'm saying if I'm Giannis talking myself into Milwaukee, whether it's salvageable, it'd.

[Zach Lowe]

Be like, well, Eric Neame has talked about the gap year concept at the Athletic, and, you know, it's an interesting concept. I just don't know. Is it a gap year? Like, how do you make it just one year when you have very little draft equity at all and not that many?

[Bill Simmons]

You're saying no, if Dame's out for the year.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, like, like. But how do you make it just one year? Like, how do you say, well, by 20, 26, 27, we're going to be ready to. Ready to rock again.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, so you don't think Kevin Porter and Giannis can be the new Big two and Coos rejuvenated coups taking the summer seriously Didn't.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, I have a question for you. Can I ask you a question?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

A 1:00am question.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

I didn't listen to the whole pod with Ryan yet, but someone told me today that you, you. You were. And I don't know if this is right. That's why I'm asking you. You were very confident that Philly is going to try to trade the number three pick. Is that person summarizing you inaccurately or.

[Bill Simmons]

I am confident that they're exploring all options with the pick. Well, yeah, whether they actually find a trade they like, but I think I'm pretty confident that they're at least. I just think that's how Daryl has operated his entire career.

[Zach Lowe]

They should.

[Bill Simmons]

He's going to look at every possible option and then if it makes the most sense to do three and Paul George for something or however they want to do it. I think there's some really good dudes in this top five, though, and when they start working out and talking to them, they're gonna. My guess would be they'll fall in love with one of the guys and that'll be that. There's a guy I've started to do my work. There's two guys that I think you're really gonna dig this. Edgecomb.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, I've watched him. I've watched YouTube, easily played in the.

[Bill Simmons]

Game we watched today, and at least just athletically hung in. And then this Trey Johnson could be pretty exciting as an offensive. He's six four. They're weird. They have to decide. Maxie McCain, if you're adding a third like six three to six five guy to that then what does that mean? Is McCain your six man? I mean you could look at Indiana.

[Zach Lowe]

You got to sign Grimes too. Like Grimes is something, right?

[Bill Simmons]

But I mean you look at the Indiana model, it's like the more guards the better in my opinion, just the way basketball is going. So.

[Zach Lowe]

But Indiana's guards are big and tough. Other than, you know, Halliburton is not, is not like Haliburton skinny, but like he's still tall. Nemhardt's tough. Mathurin's tough niece.

[Bill Simmons]

Have you changed your who's in the best situation for the next five years in the east answer now that we've gotten further along in the finals because you did a thing with Woz after I talked to Ryan about it. I didn't need to end Cleveland won. You had Cleveland won. Ryan had Cleveland won. I think Woz had Cleveland won.

[Zach Lowe]

Look, if they win the championship, it's just. You just win like you win all the polls. So yes, if they win. I guess I would have to. I guess I would have to.

[Bill Simmons]

Funny case.

[Zach Lowe]

Who won in the finals or a championship?

[Bill Simmons]

I thought you made I thought Ryan made a good case. I think was made a good or you and Woz both made the Cleveland case. I think is the right answer because.

[Zach Lowe]

It'S the only other candidate you have.

[Bill Simmons]

The most options with. Mobley, Garland and Mitchell, even if it's not working out with those as your best three and Allen, they still have a lot of different things they could do. That would be why. But if Indiana wins the title.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, if you win the title, you just win all the polls for a little while. That's all. And they're even if they don't win the title. I will say if Oklahoma City wins the next three games, Indiana has proven itself a championship caliber team.

[Bill Simmons]

And then you have Boston a year ago said Dallas wondering if this would be the first of a couple titles now Jaylen Brown shaving his meniscus. Jason Tatum, day 27 of Achilles Rehab, Drew Holiday, Porzingis trade rumors. I don't know what happened.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean, do we know what happened with I'm in a hotel room in.

[Bill Simmons]

Indiana with you at one in the morning talking about Kevin Durant, if he likes Texas or not. What happened to my Celtics life?

[Zach Lowe]

I mean, do we we don't even know what happened to Porzingis.

[Bill Simmons]

Like still don't know. We'd love an answer on that at some point. Some sort of medical verdict. It's cr.

[Zach Lowe]

It's yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Did anything happen?

[Zach Lowe]

The ultimate. The ultimate team. Look, we're getting a little groggy now, but the ultimate team. When you say, like, what happened? What happened to us? We're just, like, looking around, like, what. How do we get here? Is Sacramento just looking around, like, how did we become the Bulls? Like, the mediocre Bull. That's who we are now. And, like. But with Sabonis, we. How is this our team? Like, Zach Levine makes how much DeMar DeRozan's, like, around doing stuff. Malik Monk's our point guard. What happened?

[Bill Simmons]

How about we had Halliburton?

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, how did we get here? The beam team was so fun.

[Bill Simmons]

God, I hated that trade for them.

[Zach Lowe]

How did.

[Bill Simmons]

What happened? I think I went. I haven't heard the pot edit about it, but I think I said. I think I went all in on that one. That I thought it was a massive mistake by them because, you know, when we talk about stuff after thing and I'm like, I think this. I think that. And then occasionally it's like, I feel so strongly about this. I want to put some. Can you put this down in Pennsylvania? I just couldn't believe they traded him.

[Zach Lowe]

So let's go back to. Let's. Now. We're really.

[Bill Simmons]

And by the way, the Sabonis thing, they got good value, and it turned out it was a good trade for both sides. I get it. But I just never, ever would have traded him.

[Zach Lowe]

Not a win win. The ultimate one, though, you put. And many people put their flag down most aggressively on was Gobert. And so it's interesting to think now.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, I still have no regrets on that one.

[Zach Lowe]

I don't think you should. It is undeniable that they have gotten further as a franchise than they have ever gotten before. Two years in a row. And yet it still feels like how like, they gave up so much to get him.

[Bill Simmons]

But, like, I will say this, the one thing I was definitely wrong about, and I remember saying this as a critique of the trade, was you do that trade when Anthony Edwards is like 24, 25, and he's close to hitting his prime. I think the thing they saw that I guess none of us saw, was that he was way closer to that was the bet a top 7 guy than I think we thought.

[Zach Lowe]

And these. The really interesting thing about it was part of the reason that a lot of us didn't like that trade at first blush and even at second and third blush was, well, it's just. You're just inevitably going to have to trade Towns because the salary crunch is just, you're just not going to be able to have these guys. And he's the obvious guy. Like you're not obviously not going to trade Ant.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh man. We didn't talk about the real topic of the Finals, the Knicks coaching search. The fact that the Knicks are back.

[Zach Lowe]

Quinn Snyder.

[Bill Simmons]

This whole thing where you just asked for permission for people who are under contract, I've never heard of such a.

[Zach Lowe]

Let's go through. It's cool.

[Bill Simmons]

They did everybody but Steve Kerr and Spoelstra.

[Zach Lowe]

Quinn Snyder, Billy Donovan, IME Udoka, Chris Finch. I think we're even missing one Jason Kidd. Jason Kidd. That's the one I was missing. At this point. If you're a coach and they haven't, it's like what do I do? I suck? Like, why are the Knicks calling?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it has hit that point where you start to, you start to wonder, is it you? I don't know what they do. If I were them, I've just hired Taylor Jenkins. I thought he was a really good coach and I think you could explain his lack of success in Memphis. I mean he was successful, but can.

[Zach Lowe]

You just hit control Z on the Tibbs thing.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like, hey, the papers aren't handed in.

[Zach Lowe]

I saw the ad in the Times that you placed the message. A little letter in the Times, really touching, really, really tugged on my heartstrings.

[Bill Simmons]

Is Taylor Jenkins. What was wrong with him?

[Zach Lowe]

Nothing. I just think that if you're the New York Knicks and you've made the conference finals, you fired your Coach, who's this 67 year old veteran, whatever he is, coach with a mandate to win the championship. I just don't think you're going to the guy who was in the like little small market over here. Like I don't think James Dolan even knows who Taylor Jenkins is. I think Taylor Jenkins is an awesome coach and he would be toward the top of my list if not at.

[Bill Simmons]

The top of it too because even he has the ready made explanation of yeah, things were going really well and then crazy shit started happening with my star player. Oh and Brandon Clark was my glue guy and he just kept getting season ending injuries.

[Zach Lowe]

I can't believe the name that I'm surprised hasn't come up is Vogel. Just because veteran coach, likable personality, New York area ties. And I was talking to some people about that today and the word retread came up like too much of a retread. I'm like, well Okay. I think that's a little unfair to him because, like, Phoenix is just. I just think everyone gets a pass for getting fired in Phoenix. It's almost like a badge of honor.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like the zookeeper in a zoo where the, where the ba. Where the bears attacked a lion and it's like, well, this is the zookeeper spot.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, also they at least like made the playoffs. And the Lakers, he wins a championship, gets fired at Amid the rust disaster and like, you know.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, I think Vogel's a good coach.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, I mean, like, I just, I'm surprised that name hasn't come up. A lot of the dots make sense of just like veteran.

[Bill Simmons]

How funny is it going to be when they hire Mike Woodson?

[Zach Lowe]

I can't. You can't. You could. Not that funny to Knicks fans. I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

Would you bet your life that they wouldn't hire Mike Woodson?

[Zach Lowe]

I wouldn't bet my life on anything Knicks related. They just called six coaches in 24 hours just for fun. Hey Atlanta. Hey, Atlanta.

[Bill Simmons]

No, they were so competent. Also, whoever gets the job has to keep the best player's dad on the team as an assistant coach. Not exactly enticing. So I get to coach in the New York Fishbowl. I'm expected to win a title. There's a weird coaching staff situation that, by the way, a lot of people are talking about underneath in the undergrounds. It's not great.

[Zach Lowe]

Would you, here's a question. If you were Leon Rose or whoever's making the calls, let's just say Leon Ross.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Would you even have the guts, the gall, the audacity to call Pat Riley would. Just to do it? Like, hey, we gotta check this ball box. Like, we gotta see. Like, don't we have to see. Given Riley's history with the.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought so.

[Zach Lowe]

Would you even do it just to, just to do it?

[Bill Simmons]

I house throughout SPO initially when he started.

[Zach Lowe]

I know you screenshotted his text.

[Bill Simmons]

Um, I thought he seemed miserable last season. That was the only, only thing about it that made me pause for a second.

[Zach Lowe]

See, I, I just, I, I disagree with you on, on one level. When they were losing, what did they have like an eight or nine game losing streak at some point when it was all coming apart for them? And he in one of the press conferences said, you know, like, actually, I just, I love this. Like, I love that we have to get together as a group and dig out of this. He's not, that's not like supposed to be. He really loves like well, not only.

[Bill Simmons]

Did they not solve this problem, not only did not dig out, they had, like, an embarrassing exit.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, it wasn't great. The Cavs just traipsing all over Miami and Max Druce.

[Bill Simmons]

And so if I was Miami, I would all time blow it up. I would trade. Bam. I wouldn't do the hero extension. I would trade SPO to the Knicks. I would just completely blow it up.

[Zach Lowe]

Spo's kidding. Spo's kidding.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I just. I completely blow it up. It seems like they're going to go the other way. And they're kicking the tires on Durant, too.

[Zach Lowe]

I was just imagining the most preposterous phone call possible is Leon Rose calling Pat Riley about Eric Spoelstra. That's the most preposterous thing. I'm really rooting for that to come out.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, considering they've called everybody else, would you be shocked?

[Zach Lowe]

I would be a little shocked.

[Bill Simmons]

We have to go. Cause now my head's starting to hurt. So we're gonna come back on Friday night on your podcast, the Zach Lowe Show. We're not gonna be live, but we're gonna come after game four. We're gonna do the exact same setup. Hopefully we figure out we'll learn from the kinks. We only had one stop and start this time around, but we are gonna do that. And it'll be up on your YouTube channel as well. This will be on my YouTube channel. This will be a video podcast and Spotify as well.

[Zach Lowe]

Hopefully. Hopefully that everything works.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, hopefully everything worked. Thanks to Gehau and Eduardo as well, for. For producing for us, and thanks to Zach Lowe. I'll see you. I'll see you in Indy tomorrow.

[Zach Lowe]

But, yeah, we're here.

[Bill Simmons]

Game four. Real stakes.

[Zach Lowe]

Love a great game.

[Bill Simmons]

What did we say? Magical or calamity?

[Zach Lowe]

Or magical Calamity.

[Bill Simmons]

Calamity or magical? Got to work on that.

[Zach Lowe]

That's every Pacers game is calamity. Like they've had five calamity or magical games in one playoff run. Was game one against the Knicks a calamity or magical? Magical. I'm going magical across the board.

[Bill Simmons]

What a great place this is. All right, I'll see you tomorrow in Indiana.

[Zach Lowe]

Boom.

[Bill Simmons]

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