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The Bill Simmons Podcast
The Fall of the Chiefs (Maybe), SGA Superstar Tips, the Wildes-Greeny Feud, and Week 15 Picks
02:05:43
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- [00:00]
A
This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra, a crisp, refreshing beer with only 95 calories. And just like some of the best plays we've seen on the court throughout the NBA Cup, Ultra is best served cold. Plus, as the official beer partner of the NBA, Michelob Ultra is getting you closer to the action. With exclusive prizes and courtside tickets, Michelob Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Enter now at michelobaltra.com courtside Michelob Ultra Courtside 25 to 26. No purchase necessary. Open to US residents 21/plus begins on October 1, 2025 ends on June 30, 2026. Multiple entry periods. See official rules@mcglobalcher.com courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. I put up a new rewatchables on Monday, one of the most fun ones we did this year. We did Shampoo with Cameron Crowe and Sean Fantasy and Cameron Crowe just told a bunch of stories about movies I love like Singles and Jerry Maguire and of course Almost Famous. Say anything. But we did it all through the context of the movie. It was a great podcast. Next week's rewatchables we recorded yesterday, it was four people, you heard me mention it with Rob Mahoney. We did High Fidelity. 25 years since that movie came out. John Cusack, just a lot going on. Kind of the end of Gen X. We hit a lot of good topics with that one. So that is coming on Monday. We're running out of Mondays for the Rewatchables. We're heading into into mid December. We are not running out of music box documentaries. Jeff Buckley was last week, this week whiz Kid. By the time you you this pod goes up, it'll probably already have been up on hbo, but it'll be on HBO Max. Really, really cool doc. You get to learn about the history of Afrobeats and he's an incredible artist. So this is a really well done. You will enjoy it and you will learn a lot. So go check that out on hbo. Coming up on this podcast. Nick Wright We've been circling each other for a long, long time and we're going to argue now that Patrick Mahomes career is over. We're going to argue about it on this podcast. Plus a lot of other fun sports takes. And then a bruised batter. Joe House really fighting for his job here on the BS podcast. We cannot get good gambling picks. He's doing better on the Sunday show than he's doing on this show and his job's on the line. I don't know what else to say. If it doesn't work out this week, I'm going to make other arrangements as we head into the playoffs. So Joe Hass has to come through this week. We're going to talk about that. We're talking about some hoops and a whole bunch more. It's all coming up next. First, a break and our friends from Pearl Champ. This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by State Farm. Having insurance isn't the same as having State Farm. It's like expecting a linebacker on the football field but getting a line cook. Sure, they both can handle the pressure when it starts heating up, but only one is stopping a touchdown. You wouldn't settle for just anything for your team, so don't settle for just any insurance. When it comes to getting help you need. State Farm is the real deal. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Sam. All right. I wanted to wait until the Chiefs dynasty and Patrick Mahomes career was over before I had this guy on Nick Wright. He hosts a show called First Things first with my buddy Kevin Wilds on FS1. Among other things. And now the Chiefs are dead and you can finally come on. It's good to have you.
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B
It's one way to look at it. Or. It only took four days into Rich Paul being at the ringer for me to finally be on the show.
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A
I like this takeover.
- [04:07]
B
It's.
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A
My God, that's it. I should have worn my brown clutch sweatshirt with that Chelsea Billups had. We was getting rained.
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B
Well, well, that was, you know, that was unfortunate for all involved.
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A
I forgot about the clutch piece. That's funny.
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B
Let me do the uncomfortable part that you'll be upset with me on in the beginning. So despite the fact that many of your LeBron and basically all of your Mahomes takes have infuriated me, this is, this is the one show that I always wanted to go on and I've been very lucky that I had never been on. And I wanted to tell you. God, it might have been 20 years ago, close to it because we have a mutual. We both have a friend, Connor. I grew up with him.
- [04:55]
C
He's.
- [04:56]
B
And you've known him forever. I compiled in Microsoft Excel archive of your NBA player trade value. All of them like, like year by year for all of it to try to see like what the overall like Amari Stoudemire once was a six and then fell off and tried to do a whole like smart thing of like, could you then retroactively do it for previous eras with this is the template to see like 1970s Kareem? How does that compare to like TW 2000 ought LeBron and I then I never had the. Back in the day, never had the gumption to actually ask Connor to send it to you. And I couldn't find it right now. So this is. I am a longtime reader and admirer and so it is fun to be on here and I'll be able to finally debunk some of this Mahomes stuff. It's been so hard.
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A
Oh, that's good. We could actually start with NBA. Do you see? Now you got me excited because that was on my docket.
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B
Okay.
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A
I was trying to figure out this SGA thing which has been. I, I've talked about him a bunch of times already this year on my show, and I feel like it's a story evolving in real time where this guy, you know, it's him and Yage kind of levitating above everybody else. But there's this, there's this two year thing that's in play for him now where they won all these games last year. It looks like they're going to win 70 plus games this year and maybe even break some records. There's some streak records that are possibly in play. There's a season record in play. There's a him for the decade where he's basically averaging 30 plus points a game for half a decade at this point. And now we're. I was starting to think this the first, first week, I thought to myself, all right, what happens if they win 75 games? He averages 33 a game and they win the title and they go back to back. Where does he go? In my brain, is he immediately a top 30 player? Like, if he got abducted by aliens the next day, is he still in top 30? Like, what is going on? Basically, is the question I've been asking.
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B
So this is. Listen, you and I are similar in that we just say in like regular conversation, like, yeah, he's, you know, he's top 18, like round numbers. Like, we're being precise here because it matters.
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C
Yeah.
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B
And I get very upset when our mutual, dear friend, the legend Zach Lowe, I sent him like four years ago a text because he just said almost flippantly, like, Kevin Durant, you know, one of the 10 greatest players of all time. And I text, I'm like, I'm like, Zach, if you put pencil to paper, you would not, you would not agree with yourself there. Like, there's the problem with top 10 is you only have 10. And so I think top like SGA I find so interesting because I can't think of another domestic player that you that ended up being an all time legend that through the first two years of his career no one thought all time legend was possible. Do you understand what I mean?
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A
So you don't think. But you don't think rookie year Kobe we can glorify now and go backwards, but I don't think anybody thought he was going to be one of the top 12 guys of all time after his rookie year.
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B
No, you know, I mean we hoped that that's a fair point on Kobe and maybe I'm grading the high school kids on a curve like because the. And maybe I shouldn't and like. But it feels to me like most of the guys who now are swim in the waters that you're talking about SGA potentially getting to like.
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A
You're talking about the Duncan LeBron, the guys that have come in this century.
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B
Or even even like guys that aren't in that pantheon but are Dwyane Wade and hell all like Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, like in that 20s range. Those guys, the date like during their rookie year, people were like, this guy is supposed to be an mvp. This guy. And the guys who pop on us, Giannis and Jokic, the excuse is ad they were international guys. We, you know, it was kind of a black box. I've never. And I know SGA's Canadian.
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A
There's high school guys. Same thing where it's correct.
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B
All right.
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A
Oh, year two, year three, huh?
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B
Right. A guy getting this much better like year three to four, four to five, five to six to where I. It's like, wait, if you would have asked me three years ago, it's not that long ago. Will SGA ever be the best player in the league? I would have said at it. No, it's like he might be like seventh at which is on like amazing. But for the consistent improvement and to your point and about if that team wins 70 plus and it's like do they have another Top consensus top 20 guy like J Dub I maybe. But when you see how they play without him, it feels like they've got nine guys, 21 to 75. You know what I mean?
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A
Yeah. It's tough for J Dub when it's like, no, he's a top 15 guy. And then they go 23 and one and he's not playing. Maybe not.
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B
And it's tough for Chad when it's like what he can Be. And it's like, well, we've seen them with and without him and so I don't. There isn't right now a comp for his career. And you were big last year on best guard seasons we've seen. And in real time I was like, man, this feels like a little premature. But then he did what he did and now it. I'm worried about NBA talk on the TV show because we're still all football. But I'm like what is the conversation if every single person agrees. Yeah. I mean unless there is catastrophic injury, this team's winning the championship. It. And that's how it feels right now about okc.
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A
It's. I like how you spun that. So how does this affect you Nick Wright? Not. Not the NBA.
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B
Well, I mean the. Go ahead.
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A
But it's funny cuz I was with Jacobe last night and he was saying what you just said multiplied by five. He. He was mad we. He came over to watch the cup.
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B
Games and NBA cup has risen to the place of.
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A
Well, we were having dinner. He was in town.
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B
Yeah.
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A
It's like let's watch basketball, order some food. He comes over, it's like OKC 95 Phoenix 52. And Jacobe was just like, I hate OKC. He does this on his show too. Like these guys are ruining everything. Like who wants to watch this? Like we should just split their team in half. He was doing that all day.
- [11:43]
B
Dropped the take today that the rest of the NBA should be embarrassed. He's like, this is a little embarrassing for the rest of the league that this team is doing this. He's like, at least with the Steph KD warriors you understood it. It's like this was an unbelievable team that added Kevin Durant and they thought. And so I don't. And so here is. And I didn't really wait.
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A
Can I interrupt you on that?
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B
Please?
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A
I think part of the problem here when this has happened before with the great teams that we've had at least in the last 35, 40 years, like MJ. When this happened with the Bulls in 98, the 95, 96 season, people were so excited to have him back.
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B
Yes.
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A
And so excited. Especially after the Orlando series the previous spring. So excited to see him kind of reclaim his throne. And then that was really one of the first times we really cared about the winds record. I think that probably started like with the 76ers in 83. I don't even think in the 80s that was. The Bulls team was the first time people were like, oh, how Many could they win and. And like it was a thing. And then the warriors were compelling because all the drama and Durant and is this fair? We had all. But with okc, they just really smartly put together this awesome team. Yes, they kill everybody. There's no backlash to it yet. It's fun. It's fun to watch sort of when they have close games, but I don't think people know how to put it in context.
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B
No, they have no controversial personalities. Like. Like the closest thing is like, oh, their group interviews are corny. Like that didn't have any meat to it. Or like people going after Shays like as a fashionista that had no meat to it. I really do think people could seize on the fact that Chad Holmgren seems to be on the record that he's never read a book like that. To me, I, I think has something to it.
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A
Very small backlash stuff.
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B
Right. There's no, there's none of that. And it is. I think there's two other pieces to it. It is such a tactical and almost mechanical, not in a bad way style. They're just like, hey, we're going to play really efficient basketball and at all times have five monster defenders on the court and you're just going to be like, ah, next game's probably going to be easier and we're going to win. And our star player is this really one of one stylistic talent who also as. As. And this was the only thing they came close to the backlash on has kind of figured out better than anyone ever how to game the system on the lunch. The right. Which is his little lunch. One thing. It's another thing. Sometimes you watch Shay and again, he's going to be the MVP again, probably. But it's like I don't think he went into that move with the hope of making a basket. I think he went into that move with the hope of drawing a foul. And I think people don't love that. But it doesn't matter because it's wildly effective and nobody seems to have an answer for it. Like, I know you're holding out hope that Denver and Joker can do it and NBA history tells us that what can stop a team like this is what stopped the 16 warriors. I know you have, you know, your suspension theories. What it really was is the greatest three game stretch in the history of the league by all player. Well, I mean, you mean when they.
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A
Got bailed out by Adam Silver. I mean, what's the theory?
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B
The theory is that did he even.
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A
Like hit LeBron on the ball? It's like it happened. So it's like a flick.
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B
The theory is that LeBron James had 41 points and the Cavs won by double digits without Draymond. And then in the next game, LeBron James had 41 points and the Cavs won by double digits with Draymond. So the idea that was in Cleveland that yeah, the games move places. And then let me ask you this.
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A
After game four, when the warriors played, I think the best game of their.
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B
I didn't.
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A
Yeah. And that was like the whole. All right, let's see. And it's an awesome game that I wish they showed more in hardware classics. But we were ending that game. It was like, wow, they shut the Cavs down. This is a wrap.
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B
We. It sure did feel that way. And then luckily the greatest player in the history of the sport had the greatest three aim stretch in the history of the sport and that wrapped things up.
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A
But Michael Jordan.
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B
That'S neither, that's neither here nor there. The point that I'm your. To me your. The hope for Denver is analogous to maybe Joker can do a 2016 brawn where it's like the other team's way better. But I'm just going to carry go on this supernova stretch. But.
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A
Well, you would also need. SJ would have to be injured because Curry. Curry was banged up in the playoffs and SJ would have to release a terrible shoe and we would need some sort of suspension for Game 5.
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B
That would be the.
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A
That would be the doppelganger.
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B
The Curry was injured stuff. I'm gonna, I'm gonna.
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A
Well, he was.
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B
He was injured that.
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A
He played hurt and Bogut went down halfway through the series. That's how we ended up with Festus aelan in game seven trying to guard LeBron two times in a row.
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B
That part did happen. But the Steph Curry protectionism, he's an all time great player. Everybody knows it. But the Steph Curry protectionism of he can come back against Portland, set the all time record in his first game back from the injury for points in overtime. Literally bellow to the crowd, I'm back everyone you and like, as you were just saying, four games into the series being like this team is unstoppable. Steph's amazing, about to win a championship and then he doesn't play well in a game seven. It's like, oh, Steph was injured. Give me a break. Give me a break.
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A
That's what I think the LeBron fans have done that with a couple years too. Here's the thing. This is going back to OKC stand.
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B
In 2018 and heroically hit it from everyone.
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A
I forgot about that after the game you've ever seen.
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B
Go ahead. Sorry.
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A
We're talking about how OKC could be stopped. And to me, the parallels. I mentioned this the other day, Mahoney. I want to dive into it because I. I'm interested in your. Take the.07 Pats. The streak.
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B
Yeah.
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A
The pressure of that, playing a playoff game basically every week, and they wore down, and they really weren't, even before that super bowl, that, like, the playoffs. It wasn't the most inspiring.
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B
That team, like, peaked in, like, week 12.
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A
No question. Even I would say earlier, I thought they peaked the first half of the season.
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B
I don't know exact. But then you saw him holding on because, remember, they almost lost that Ravens game. Like, the Ravens called out when they shouldn't have. And so. But go ahead. Sorry.
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A
It's kind of an unimpressive Chargers game, too, where they're playing Phil Rivers. He's got the torn acl, and they.
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B
You know, they're also playing this week.
- [18:41]
A
I know. I. I want to come to him later, but I'm wondering, like, with okc, if there's a streak, because people love streaks like the 2013 heat. The 2013 heat, I thought, was one of the best moments of the 21st century for basketball. I was so into it. I loved it. Every game was a playoff game. When the Bulls beat them, it was significant. And I wonder with this okc, if they roll through the cup, if they get into the 20s with that streak. And now once you get to around 21, 22, people really start to care. You get to 25, you start passing some of the really memorable teams. Maybe the weight of that could sink them a little bit. I don't know.
- [19:21]
B
Here's. Here's why it feels unlikely now. It should be said at this moment, in December of each of, like, the last five years, four years, it is felt inevitable that the defending champion was going to win again. Like this time last year, it sure felt like Boston. Yeah, okay. See, Boston's going to do it. And the year before it, to me, felt like, yes, Denver's going to repeat. The only team that didn't feel like it was going to repeat was Golden State, because that felt like kind of a last hurrah type of thing.
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A
No question.
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B
And then the year. But the year before that, Milwaukee, I thought they were going to repeat up until the moment Middleton got hurt. Chris Middleton got hurt.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Um, so. And none of those teams have Even made the conference finals to defend their title. What feels different about this OKC team is two things. One is it feels like they can sustain the injury no matter who it's to as long as it's not shit like anybody else.
- [20:23]
A
I mean you could argue even with Shay it might be like a 60 win team.
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B
Well, that would be the most.
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A
I mean honestly that like they just put Mitchell in there. They'd run more stuff through Jalen Williams, their defense would still probably make them. They'd win 75 of their games.
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B
Nothing would be more confusing to the N B A ranking. Stuff that you were talking about at the start is if. And you know, not hoping for this obviously but if a week before the playoffs Shea went out and was done for the year and they won the title, like that would be sneaky. Terrible. But for, I mean.
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A
Right. Would they be like still favored? Probably not. But they'd be one of like favorite but three favorites in the West.
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B
Yes, absolutely. And so I just don't, I don't know. So the, the like, oh, it's long seasons guy can go down. They seem immune to it. And the fact that they are just to get to them in the West.
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A
Yeah.
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B
One of these teams is going to have to play a war in round two. Feels like man, how is it not going to happen?
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A
And I feel like we're headed for Denver, Houston just hitting each other with two by fours for two solid weeks and then the winner gets to play okc.
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B
And it's also why the most interesting thing to me about the Western Conference playoff race, if you will, is there is massive incentive to be the three seed or the two seed. Like there is such a penalty if you're the four. Like that Lakers lost to that. I know the Lakers. You, you don't believe in them probably quite as much as I do. But that loss to the spurs last night is like low key, devastating. If you thought, you know, avoid OKC as long as possible. Being the four or five is a disaster. It's just.
- [22:20]
A
Well, they've had the same. Rich talked about this on Monday in the, on the pod about there's. There's these young, long, athletic teams that are just kryptonite for this Lakers group.
- [22:31]
C
Yeah.
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A
And like they got killed by Atlanta earlier in the year, San Antonio yesterday. There's a certain type of team with a ton of energy that I think is going to be a problem for them on the schedule. But they're still, you know, they're still a 50 win team. I guess. I guess the Thing I want to figure out is how you balance with now that LeBron is back and you saw Reeves kind of fall back a little bit and suddenly doesn't look like Reeves anymore is can you have those three guys? How do you make all three of them happy and get the right amount of production out of all three and then how do you hide them on defense?
- [23:02]
B
So listen, there is no hide. The, the defensive piece is. I don't think there's a fix to like it's just. They're just going to be. Doesn't seem like it defensive team for the most part. Like I think they could. You could add a piece. What like but that's. That team strength has to be we're going to score 130. Like we're just going to be a monster offensively. I dis. I. I think that when LeBron first came back Austin was still crushing and the, the, the night LeBron streak ended Austin had 40. Like I do and I know you think probably think I'm biased on this. I do think LeBron at this point especially because the streaks over is to a degree post stats in what he cares about. Like he has all the records. There's nobody, nobody. There's nothing else for him to chase in that. And because he missed all those games because I do think he cares about all NBA stuff. But he's going to be ineligible.
- [24:00]
A
So he wasn't going to make it anyway.
- [24:02]
B
Right. Well, I mean again that we. He made it last year but this it's. He's going to be.
- [24:09]
A
Wasn't happening so.
- [24:10]
B
Right. And so I do think he's going to be fine being like Jack of all trades guy. And I think Reeves is, I think Reeves and Luca are a really good offensive, really good onew punch with LeBron filling in the blanks. I just don't know how they can guard anybody. I just don't know how they. And it feels like since Bron's been there they haven't been able to guard point guard. And the year they had AD and Dwight and won the title, they were just so big. It was fine. But who can guard point guards on that team? I don't know.
- [24:41]
A
And you're relying on deandre Ayton where it's gone pretty well for shockingly well. Yeah, but we know, we know, we know what lurks inside. Yeah. I'm looking at my pyramid right now and if SGA went back to back, let's say they have a 25 game winning streak. They win between 70 and 74 games. Who knows it would be hard not to have him in the 20s. So let's with the resume he's had with all the all NBAs in a row it's just he would have to go down as like the logical successor to the two guard ch. Basically the best guard alive championship belt goes to him for four years here.
- [25:20]
B
So can we the so. Cause I think our. I think our top 20 would maybe not. Obviously the order is going to be different but the if I may just real quick just Braun, Cream, Michaels, everyone's top three.
- [25:37]
A
Like that's in stone interesting order.
- [25:40]
B
Well that's the order I have it in but I don't want to you about that right now.
- [25:43]
A
That's fine. I mean I would have. I would have Russell 3 personally but oh above Kareem. Yeah I go MJ, Lebron, Russell, Kareem.
- [25:53]
B
Okay.
- [25:53]
A
You know why? Because every time Bill Russell played in the playoffs he won. Except for the time he had like a high ankle sprain right foot almost came off his body. Or the other time will kill them in 67. But he was 11 for 13.
- [26:05]
B
But so just the. No that's. That's totally fair and I I'm just trying to like reverse engineer SGA because.
- [26:11]
A
Those four have to start yeah those. You have to start with those four.
- [26:15]
B
And Magic and I Magic, Wilt, Duncan, Kobe. By the way, you're 100% right on Duncan over Kobe. It's the most frustrating argument but that's fine. Bird, Bird after Kobe then is where at 9 or that's 9. At 10 is where it starts to be tricky because it's like Akeem, Shaq, Steph, Joker. Only one of those guys is a top 10 all time player. Like everyone can stop with like the giannis, Durant, I, Dr. J who I love Moses. Who's the most underrated guy? We just told you nine. Yeah and only one. So like I don't know who you who you have highest of those four. I would assume you have Steph higher than Shaq and Aem. I struggle with that. I think Aem's become wildly underrated. He has so I but again we're SGA is not in that area so let's just agree those are the next four. So 10, 11, 12.
- [27:13]
A
My list is a little different. Tell me I'm having a lot of trouble. Joker how it plays out in the playoffs here but just what he's done offensively now for seven years that has no parallel to basically anything in NBA history. It's tough not to not to nudge him toward that top 10.
- [27:32]
B
But so you. You write but.
- [27:34]
A
And this is like to me he's near Wilt at this point, but I do think he needs another title.
- [27:39]
B
Yeah, but you don't.
- [27:41]
A
No. But I do think Curry vs. Kobe is a better argument that people want to give it credit for. Kobe only won one MVP and he only. He won the two on his own. Steph won four. He won the one on his own. Then the other. The other three. I guess he could give him 15. But that I. I just think it's a better argument than people give it credit for the. Where Kobe wins it. I think if you're going to give it to Kobe is all those all NBAs and everything else he did basically after 08 he has this whole like second. Second prime that I. Steph hasn't really totally had.
- [28:17]
B
Listen, you and I are in lockstep on the. I think for the good and bad about Kobe. Like what it. What is true on the not on the con side of the ledger is he has a couple grizzly finals and they're not always. And it's not just when he was a kid. His finals against the Pistons was a disaster. And it's not just the three years smack dab in the middle of your prime where you miss the playoffs and then don't get out of round one.
- [28:49]
C
But the.
- [28:50]
B
The blowing a three one lead in round one in game seven, second half quitting is like a real thing now. He overcame it because of those titles. But that is. Does that offset enough of. He was such a better defensive player than co than Stephen. Like you know. But it is. That's a fair argument.
- [29:09]
A
But you could argue with the. I mean the case for staff if you're going to go deep on this is the shooting and the threat of his shooting and how it affected the court and how the defense almost like having Tyree kill an offense where the whole secondary has to shift toward him and it opens up all this other stuff that would be part of the Curry case. And also like he was an amazing teammate, you know and. And Kobe was up and down on that stuff. I think even the biggest Kobe fans would admit that he had some rocky years there.
- [29:39]
B
Yeah.
- [29:39]
A
Yeah. To say the least.
- [29:41]
B
Rocky years.
- [29:42]
A
I think that's fair. He had his coach writing an entire book about what a pain in the ass he was. Like these are things that happened.
- [29:47]
B
But if so. But if Those are the 13 and then we to me we get to the Dr. J. Moses Durant, Giannis Isa.
- [29:57]
A
I have the I have the 15.
- [30:00]
B
Okay.
- [30:00]
A
And then we move into, like, this. Oscar, KD, Havlicek, Giannis, Dirk, Elgin, Julius, Pettit, Garnett, Malone, Barkley. So, right, SGA now has a chance to kind of sniff that.
- [30:13]
B
So that's where I was trying to get to, like, who is the best player that with a title, you would have SGA ahead of? So, like, I'm thinking in my head, I'm like, with a title, do I have SGA ahead of John Stockton? Yes. With the title, do I have SGA ahead of David Robinson?
- [30:37]
A
Well, yeah, you're talking like the Jason Kidd, Nash, a couple of those people that just never won. Chris Paul, John Stockton. The other question you have to ask is, all right, let's say SJ's career ends this year. This is. I did this exercise in my book. Would you rather have the 9, 8 SGA years? You get all of them. You could start a franchise with that, or you could have the 20 years of Chris Paul. What gives you a better chance to win the title?
- [31:04]
B
See Chris Paul. But I'm probably. I. I'm. I'm not quite when it comes to Chris Paul, but I'm a big Chris Paul fan.
- [31:10]
A
Right, But I'm saying your goal is to win the title, and you could have the eight years SGA just had or Chris Paul's entire career, and that's your only goal.
- [31:20]
C
What's.
- [31:21]
A
What's the answer? I think there's a real case for sga. It's like, if at the peak, sga, if I could put a good team around him, I can win a title.
- [31:29]
B
So here's the thing. So that's the part that I'm not. I'm not sure about in this regard. You do this all the time. I forget who you were just talking about it with. Like, if you do their career a hundred times, this was like a one percentile outcome. Like, they got Stone unlucky.
- [31:50]
A
Well, LeBron's a good example of that.
- [31:52]
C
If.
- [31:52]
A
Who is the team that.
- [31:53]
B
If.
- [31:54]
A
If the lottery that year, what was it?
- [31:56]
B
Memphis. Jerry West.
- [31:57]
A
If he goes to Memphis with Jerry west, with the guys they had already.
- [32:01]
B
Yeah, Pal Gasol, Is he, like, still there?
- [32:05]
A
Did they win, like, nine titles?
- [32:07]
B
You know, but so my question is this. With SGA, is this OKC operation a 98th percentile outcome for him?
- [32:19]
A
Yeah, but. Okay, this is a good exercise. Cause you could say that about Duncan. Went to the best possible San Antonio team the one year they sucked, where Robinson's there, and a good infrastructure, you could say about Bird. Bird goes to a team with a bunch of hall of Famers and a great gm and then they make better trades. Definitely say it about Magic. Can't say it about Jordan.
- [32:38]
B
Can't say about Jordan. Can't say about.
- [32:40]
A
Can't say about LeBron.
- [32:41]
B
Can't say it about Kareem in.
- [32:43]
A
You can say it about Russell because he goes to a team with Koozie and a whole bunch of other people right our back.
- [32:48]
B
You can say it about Kobe. Cause Shaq's there and so he gets the formative stuff.
- [32:54]
A
Kobe had one of the best situations of any of them. He goes to a team that has the dominant center that you know, other than Hakeema that decade. You.
- [33:03]
B
You. There's a. This is one for your guy. You cannot say it about Steph. That franchise was a. You wrote a whole thing about what a disaster the warriors were pre.
- [33:14]
A
So the only. The only thing for him that it actually might have been a good franchise is all the issues he had with his feet and ankles. Oh, and whether he was with like, let's say he goes to the Timberwolves with David Khan running Timberwolves and a shitty owner and it's like, oh man, Step's career is over now. Like they wouldn't have come up with one thing to save his anything. And I. I do think the warriors get credit for that or wherever. Being in California.
- [33:39]
B
Oh, that's a really. I hadn't thought about that. But that's a really good point. The, like his career.
- [33:43]
A
He. There's in the 60s. His career is over.
- [33:45]
B
Four years in the 60s, bro. In the 90s.
- [33:49]
A
We're in converse. He's done.
- [33:50]
C
It's.
- [33:51]
A
We don't even know who he is.
- [33:53]
B
Yeah. I mean, I think that we don't have to go back that far. I think most like in the. Yes. So that. So that is like. So is for sga. Was this the ideal situation or am I underselling him by saying that? Like, I just.
- [34:11]
A
You're underselling one thing. He's lights out at the end of these games to the point that he's fucking Michael Myers. It's like, oh, it's a three point game with four minutes left. Like you know what's going to happen. And he's got so much confidence. I also think he's been so good that now I find myself comparing other players that thinks he does. Like he's reached that last level. Like I was watching Dylan Harper the other day. Dylan Harper's footwork is so good for like, however old. He is 19.
- [34:36]
B
But now comparing him to.
- [34:38]
A
And I'm like, oh, his footwork's like Shay, like, I would have said Kobe three years ago. And now Shay is the default footwork guy. I think the one thing that he doesn't have that I don't know how to explain this or assess it is there's a charisma piece that's not totally there that Kobe always had, that MJ always had and sga. It's. There's like a small piece missing with how you res. How the fans resonate with him when they're at the game. And I don't know. You can't fix that.
- [35:07]
B
Right. And there is in that same bucket is every legendary scoring guard, except for Iverson, has been above the rim and he's not.
- [35:20]
A
That's a good point.
- [35:21]
B
And so like the. And he's tall enough, obviously. You know, it's just Iverson wasn't. Literally wasn't tall enough. And the other guys who are. I guess Steph isn't. Is a scoring guard, but Steph is different style of player. All those other guys had a. It's why people have so long tried to force this Anthony Edwards face of the league thing when it's. All that means is this guy fucking dunks on people. And we like it. Like, that's like. It's just that. That is like a fun. A fun piece of it. I. I do. I do have. I. The. I want to. I don't know what you have on the docket. I want to make sure.
- [35:59]
A
Can we take a break?
- [36:00]
B
Yeah.
- [36:00]
A
That was a good segment. I thought we did a good first segment. You know what?
- [36:03]
B
I give it. I'd give it a B plus, Bill.
- [36:10]
A
All right, we're coming back. The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by fanduel. Your Friday nights just got a little louder because NBA Happy hour is happening on FanDuel every Friday from 6 to 7:30pm EAS. Fando's got limited time specials to pregame the weekend. It's one of my daughter's phrases. The pregame, pregame boost, bonus surprises, all live in the app. And by the way, in the app, after I pushed and prodded them, they added a bunch of Oklahoma City.
- [36:39]
C
Couple.
- [36:39]
A
Of futures including could they reach 29 straight consecutive games and beat Golden State 28. That's like plus 450. Could they get to 34 plus consecutive games, which would be a new NBA record 12 to 1? I would not recommend that one. That's too hard. The 28 is interesting, though. I still the 74 plus regular season wins that has dropped ever since we started talking about on the BS pod that is +2 35 now so I'm glad people listen to me out there. NBA Happy Hour every Friday from 6 to 7:30 Eastern only on FanDuel official sportsbook partner of the NBA. Visit fandom.combs to get started. Must be 21 + President select states or 18 + in President in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in required rewards are non withdrawable. Restrictions apply including bonus and token expiration leg requirements and max wager amount seed terms. At supportsbook.fanduel.com, gamma problem call 1-800- Gamble or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-78-9777 or visit ccpg.org ChatInElectric this episode is brought to you by Amazon. Say hello to the all new Alexa plus see how Alexa can do so much more for you. Need tickets to the finals, rides to get there, and a place to eat around the stadium. Help organize your schedule so you never miss a kickoff. I actually need that. Or just craving your game day spread? I'm always craving it. Just sit back, relax and talk naturally. I didn't even talk naturally right there. Just sit back, relax and talk naturally. I did it. Alexa's on it and learns your style, anticipates what's next and makes it happen across echo and Fire TV and much more. Learn more at Amazon.com new Alexa Kansas City Chiefs 6 and 7 House and I are going to do Ringer 107 picks in a second. We're definitely taking the Chiefs. I think they're going to win this week, which will make them 7 and 7. I have a whole. I don't know whether to give you the floor first or give. I actually. Let me go. You play off me on this one.
- [38:47]
B
Sure.
- [38:48]
A
I'll try to get this to an A minus. What really happened to the Chiefs? My top 10 favorite excuses I've heard from Chiefs fans. In no particular order.
- [39:01]
C
Okay.
- [39:04]
A
Kelsey got old.
- [39:07]
B
I mean, that objectively did happen. That objectively true.
- [39:10]
A
All right, so we're one for one with a good excuse.
- [39:12]
B
Yeah, I don't. I don't consider that an excuse. Like that did happen, but that doesn't explain this. So like, yes, he got old. That shouldn't have caused this. Go ahead.
- [39:23]
A
Too much physical wear and tear on Mahomes because of his O line and the fact that he's scrambling so much. And that's why he can no longer connect. Really. On any deep balls at all.
- [39:36]
B
I don't buy that. That feels like an excuse.
- [39:39]
A
Okay. Mahomes can't connect on deep balls anymore. They're too easy to stop offensively.
- [39:45]
B
That's.
- [39:46]
A
You don't have to worry about the deep.
- [39:47]
B
That's, that's, that is. That is a legitimate fair criticism this year in particular.
- [39:55]
A
I know and last year.
- [39:57]
B
Right. I was gonna say I know the numbers were bad last year. The. I. I think last year the there was more of a explanation for it of people other the surround supporting cast preventing it. This year the offensive line up until this past week has been healthy and, and good. You have the right receivers out there. You're it. No, that's a fair. You know that is a fair check against him this season.
- [40:25]
A
I think this is a good one. I actually went on Chiefs Reddit to see if I could find any Chiefs excuses. I saw this one from 2018 to 2024 they played 21 playoff games. Yeah, almost more. More than an entire season. They averaged 20 games a year for seven years. And one of the guys on this chief's Reddit thread said they need a break. They need a chance to refuel and reset. It was the thing that was written.
- [40:58]
B
Listen, so here's the thing and I. There is a reason that only one team ever has had a better.
- [41:11]
A
Had.
- [41:11]
B
A run like this of seasons this long that went on longer and it only went on one season longer. The Patriots from 11 to 18. So I do think that that is definitionally true that go like listen, there is also a reason that no team, only one team ever has been to four straight Super Bowls. I think it's you know, maybe less the full seven years and more the last three years and the chase of the three Pete and the the stomach punch of the way that ended that I think really has had a knock on effect this season. I do believe that. Go ahead.
- [41:51]
A
I actually believe in that theory because I think that was. I watched it happen with the warriors last decade where they going to the five finals in a row and I just felt like they're run on fumes. I watched it happen with my Patriots. You know they were especially like that even the 0304 and when they had the streak and then oh five that.
- [42:13]
B
A lot of the same guys and you.
- [42:15]
A
So here's Denver.
- [42:16]
B
So do you want to keep going through it or can I now throw?
- [42:18]
A
No, I have a couple more.
- [42:19]
C
Okay.
- [42:20]
B
Just quickly and then I want to revisit it.
- [42:22]
A
Salary cap just super hard. Once Mahone becomes an expensive franchise Guy.
- [42:26]
B
That's a. That's an excuse. Everybody's got expensive quarterback. That's good. Stop it.
- [42:31]
A
Yeah. And plus the league now I don't even know what the seller cap is. You just move money forward. It's like a pods this game. Taylor Swift.
- [42:38]
B
That's not. Stop it. That's not it. Cardi B has been great for your Patriots.
- [42:46]
A
Karma for what? Just because some of the guys you've signed over the years. Maybe the karma. Yeah, yeah.
- [42:53]
B
I don't know. That is rich coming from a Pats fan who's and the like.
- [43:00]
A
I don't want to hear about murdery tight end.
- [43:03]
B
I don't want to hear about karma.
- [43:08]
A
Arrogance. They greenlit a documentary and the run wasn't even over yet. This giant documentary about how they're gonna win three in a row.
- [43:16]
B
I don't. The documentary was not about how they're going to win three in a row. Was about the quest. The documentary was great.
- [43:23]
A
I don't know. Last one. Andy Reid got old.
- [43:30]
B
This has not been Andy's best season.
- [43:32]
A
I don't think it has been Andy's best season at all. The.
- [43:35]
B
And no, I think. And that fourth and one call was the worst call of they were going to win that Texans game. The Texans were done scoring and all.
- [43:48]
A
You had to do is just keep punting it to them and they were going to give you one.
- [43:52]
B
They were going to. Yeah, they were going to win. Okay, so now let me address some of the let's go darts you have thrown and then we'll get to Patrick.
- [44:01]
A
I'm just. This is just rhetoric I'm hearing about the three time super bowl champion Kansas City Chiefs.
- [44:07]
B
Okay, so first of all, some very odd and scary for me at least similarities. Tom Brady, in his seventh year as a starter stepped on the field in the super bowl trying to win his fourth ring knowing if we win this game, I am considered the undisputed goat. And this is considered the greatest team of all time. He lost the game in heartbreaking fashion and then did not win a playoff game. One game the next three years. Now, first year of that was tragic. You know, week one he gets his knee blown out. But year seven, going by your guy. I know. By Bernard Pollard. I know.
- [45:02]
A
We call him Bernard Carmel Pollard. We use his middle name like he's an assassin.
- [45:07]
B
Year seven, going for ring four, trying to be the undisputed greatest team ever. Patrick in year seven was playing for ring four, trying to become the greatest, undisputed greatest team ever. If they pull off the three Peat they lose that super bowl in very different fashion. He doesn't get hurt the next year, but it looks like they're going to be out of the tournament in year eight. And that scares me about because you guys had a retool in the late 2000 oughts and so like that the first seven years. Brady to Tom or Brady. Tom Brady to Patrick. The, the, the way they played and the numbers are different but the overall like ledger is very similar. And then Tom had you know, a little gap and then what I think is the greatest run in NFL history, 11 to 18. I I so I so this is the question.
- [46:06]
A
I we almost, we almost had four retools if you look at it and I think you you're on your second one right now. Yes, I think the Tyreek trade, the.
- [46:15]
B
Tyreek trade was a retool that was a worked great. Homes won MVP the first year and they won the Super Bowl. Then they won super bowl again. But now you're right, this is secondary tool. Go ahead. Sorry.
- [46:25]
A
Yeah, we had the, the retool for the Pats was when they were like hey, we have Tom Brady. Maybe we should get him some awesome receivers. And they got Welker Moss. That led basically to the second half of that decade. And then you know when they built around the tight ends that was the third retool. And then the middle of the 2010s was I don't know what was going on. We were just winning.
- [46:46]
B
So here, so here's my so here's and this is not a rhetorical question. It's not a smart ass question. Do you consider the Pats one sustained dynasty or two separate dynasties?
- [47:01]
A
I think the Brady Belichick together.
- [47:05]
B
It.
- [47:05]
A
Has to be considered one giant thing.
- [47:08]
B
Okay.
- [47:08]
A
But I think, I think all the Pats fans think of it as like these little different eras that the, you know, they did it with defense the first three Super Bowls. That's how they won. Brady was the third most important piece of it.
- [47:19]
B
I so you, you're getting me close to where one of the things I want to get to. But I think you can make the argument you made. It's the same coach, same quarterback. It's one dynasty. The other One is there was 01 to 04. The defense led Adam Binnater, Terry Clutch portion of it.
- [47:36]
A
Belichick that was really like Belichick just the but by far running circles around everybody else.
- [47:42]
B
And then there is 2011 to 2018 when you made five Super Bowls win three peak tom. And every single year you played in the conference championship game. Like, you know what I mean? And that was the, the apex to me of Brady. And so since I view it as two separate things, I get very mad. Like it's irrational how mad I get when you just flippantly call the Chiefs a mini dynasty. I'm like if we're a mini dynasty then everything but your stupid Patriots is a mini dynasty. Then the damn Cowboys were a mini dynasty. That if five Super Bowls in six years with three rings isn't a full grown adult dynasty, then we're never having another one. Because I don't think we're going to get 20 years of the same coach quarterback.
- [48:32]
A
It's a really good note and it was a little petty on my side.
- [48:35]
B
Thank you.
- [48:36]
A
Wow.
- [48:37]
B
Wow. Thank you. Now can I, can I do the Patrick Mahomes still one day could be.
- [48:45]
A
The goat ARGU in Dallas or Kansas City.
- [48:49]
B
Oh, that was Rich. Why did Rich do that? Why is Rich trading him to the Cowboys? I didn't understand that.
- [48:56]
A
I didn't either.
- [48:58]
C
I don't know.
- [48:58]
A
Maybe he had inside info.
- [48:59]
B
So what works? Do we agree that. Because I. You keep talking about Patrick missing the playoffs as this stinging goat indictment.
- [49:12]
A
It's not great.
- [49:13]
B
It. Right. But totally not caring that Tom missed the playoffs in his second in after they won the first Super Bowl. With the argument being he wasn't Tom yet. Right.
- [49:23]
A
Is that they still went 9 and 7 in the last game of the year. It's a really weird we. If you go back and look at the standings.
- [49:30]
B
Yeah.
- [49:31]
A
It was like all these nine and seven three way ties and so they played the last game. They won the last game of the year and needed some help and didn't get by the way.
- [49:39]
B
That might be exact. If you're right that the Chiefs are going to beat the Chargers. They have the Titans and the Raiders still on the schedule. That'll be nine wins no matter whether they beat Denver or not. Like they could be very similar to that. But the, but the argument that Wilds makes and I've heard other people make is yeah, but that's not fair to use against Tom because you're. He wasn't Tom Brady yet. Which I acknowledge and I understand. But he gets pretty good for the Super Bowls. So we shouldn't. When we're talking about like the goat debate say because Patrick was instantly excellent. That hurts him in the case that he's better than Tom Brady one day like that. Logically I don't follow.
- [50:23]
A
Well can, can, can we at least agree on this heading into that Philly game in the air was like, if he does this, it's kind of a rap. And Max and I talked about that last week when doing the pot about these. These moments people have sometimes in their career, these little sliding door things where it's like, wow, if this happens.
- [50:43]
B
Yeah.
- [50:43]
A
Oof. It's undeniable. That's why, like, I was on Twitter today, and somebody just put on the last 45 seconds of game six of 98 with Jordan in Utah. Just that whole sequence of the 50 seconds, which every time I'm watching, it's so mesmerizing to just watch this guy, like, levitate above the game, basically. It's like, just still the greatest thing I've ever seen an athlete do. And it's like, all right, what happens if he misses the last shot and they lose in seven? And it's just like the sliding doors of that. We're talking about him differently. And I think that was. If Mahomes had beaten that crazy Philly team that was just better than them and more talented them. If he'd done that, it's. It was.
- [51:21]
B
It would have been. I still don't think you would have said he was the Goat yet. I think you would have been like, well, Brady beat him twice in the playoffs.
- [51:27]
A
I. I would have said we had co goats. I think there would have been a co goat possibility at that point.
- [51:33]
B
So the. I agree. So I agree with you that in that moment, his. His. You know, if it's poly market, going into that game, his chance of being known, ending his career as the Goat, was at, like, 76%. And after the game, it dropped to, like, 49. And as we sit here today, it feels like it's around 30, like, the difference.
- [52:01]
A
But the difference between the two guys is that it feels like Mahomes was just better, like, three years ago, just from the eye test. Like, it. It just feels like he moved better, he threw the ball better, everything. Brady got better in his 30s. Like, he just did. Like, by the time we got to the Seattle super bowl, if you go back and you look at those last two drives, who he's playing was unbelievable. It's out of control, but it's just like, he couldn't have done that 10 years earlier, I don't think. Like, he definitely got better in the 2010s.
- [52:29]
B
So I don't know. It's. The Mahomes thing is so weird because it's hard to, like, really pin down what we're saying, because. So they. They trade Tyree Kill and that next year they're the highest scoring team in the league. He has more yards than any quarterback in history and was unbelievable. But it was all dink and dunk stuff. It wasn't deep bombs. It was just wildly efficient. They win the super bowl the next year, everyone's like, this is the worst Chiefs team yet. They actually have to go on the road in the playoffs. And in those playoffs, he has one of the greatest individual playoff runs in the history of the sport. Going to Buffalo, going to Baltimore, coming back 10 down in the super bowl, and it's like, holy shit. Like, why would we doubt this guy again last year?
- [53:22]
A
I mean, to the point that it was impossible to bet on him the next year.
- [53:26]
B
Correct.
- [53:27]
A
It was. I'm doing Playoff Manifesto and I'm just throwing out rules because I was like, I just don't want to bet against moms.
- [53:32]
B
And then last year was super weird because he had these insane fourth quarter, third down, clutch numbers. But every other number, it's like, it's worse than. Not Trevor Lawrence or something. Like, his stats last year were not good, but the team won every game. And he was. Everybody who watched the Chiefs is like, yeah, Patrick's the reason why.
- [54:00]
A
And so.
- [54:00]
B
But the numbers didn't back that up. So here's. So I don't know where. I also don't know where actually. Like, if he has a season of failure, which this could be what that does to him moving forward. Right. In a positive way, I would think.
- [54:18]
A
Well, is there the Rocky 4 log cabin scenario?
- [54:22]
B
Correct.
- [54:23]
C
Where you.
- [54:23]
A
You need to almost go to Russia and rebuild it, and you're just going with Duke and your wife and the whole thing. That's it. You're just. You're rebuilding it.
- [54:32]
B
So I think, because I think he's wired that way, I. And then I. Because I do have one other chief's question. I just want to finish this Mahomes thought on the goat thing. But my. My Mahomes could still be. The goat argument boils down to this. I think everyone agrees that through eight seasons, which is where Patrick is right now, his career outstrips Tom's through eight years. They both had three rings, but Patrick's been to five Super Bowls. Tom had been to four. Pat Patrick has two MVPs. Time has one. So up to this point in his career, he's ahead of the pace. What?
- [55:11]
A
Yeah. I was thinking about when I was growing up, there was like, Marino, La Montana, people like that. The only one that you could put against his first eight years is Montana. Who I don't even think started for two years.
- [55:21]
B
Correct. That's the problem.
- [55:23]
A
But Montana would be the doppelganger for the first eight years. And he's better than Montana because he played the whole time.
- [55:28]
B
Exactly.
- [55:29]
A
He missed the first year. That's it.
- [55:31]
B
And so the problem for Patrick is this, if I'm being fair, he's, he needs to be way ahead of Brady's pace at 10 years and 12 years because the odds that he's going to play 20, like after year eight, Tom played 15 more years. I know that that's the, the part is he's not, he can't just be like still like, oh, mile marker 10 slightly ahead because he's probably not going to run as long of a race. And Tom does have the playoff head to head, which sucks for me. Is great for you, but that's, that's a hard one. So I just don't, I, I don't like when you say he's eliminated. Like it's out because of this. Because it, it really wounds me. Now can I ask you one other thing about the Chiefs?
- [56:26]
A
I'm sorry, but he's eliminated.
- [56:27]
B
It is not.
- [56:28]
A
Brady never played a meaningless NFL game. He never started a meaningless NFL game.
- [56:33]
B
Patrick has not yet either.
- [56:34]
A
He has not yet. The best thing you have going for you is that Amazon bought that that Christmas night game. There might be some ref greasing Bezos the. We need that game.
- [56:46]
B
So here's. So you think the Chiefs are going to beat the Chargers this weekend?
- [56:51]
A
I still can't believe the Chargers beat the Eagles.
- [56:54]
B
Nobody.
- [56:55]
A
I don't understand what happened in that game. Or, or the Chargers can't block. They can't really do anything. And I don't understand how they have nine wins.
- [57:05]
B
So I don't know if you have really like run this full scenario full in your head, but here is. And again, the Chiefs have been bad.
- [57:15]
A
Is this a Chiefs May Chiefs going 10 and 7 making the playoff scenario.
- [57:19]
B
It's very simple.
- [57:21]
A
Okay.
- [57:22]
B
So excited. The hard part is they have to go 10 and 7, which means they have to win the Charger game and beat Denver in Kansas City, by the way, on Christmas. But their other two games are Titans, Raiders. So if we assume they're going 10 and 7, two other things need to happen. The Philip Rivers Colts need to lose at least twice. Fucking done. They are. They play the Seahawks, the Niners, the Jags and the Texans. They are not going three and one.
- [57:54]
A
They are not. I agree with that, by the way. You're the chiefs on Fandor plus 520 to make the playoffs which I, I thought was high.
- [58:01]
B
Well so this is what I'm saying. So if we eliminate the Colts because the Colts would have to go three and one to match.
- [58:08]
A
I'm good with eliminating the Colts.
- [58:10]
B
And we are both saying we think the Chargers are going to lose this weekend to the Chiefs. For the Chiefs to make it at 10 and 7, they need the Chargers to lose in Week 18 to Denver. They have to lose that game. Which Denver.
- [58:27]
A
Which Denver may need because they're trying to get the one seed.
- [58:30]
B
Yeah, they might care to your patsy. And then they just need the Chargers to lose one of at Dallas or home for Houston.
- [58:40]
A
But don't they have to finish above the Chargers?
- [58:42]
B
No. So this is what people have to split the the first tiebreaker is head to head. The second tiebreaker is divisional record. They would be tied in both of those. The third tiebreaker if you're in the same division is not conference record. It's common opponent and the Chiefs have that. So at 10 and 7 with the.
- [59:04]
A
Chargers, I mean this seems doable. You've kind of talked me into this.
- [59:08]
B
This would be amazing all again. If The Chargers go 10 and 7 but beat Denver, meaning they lose Kansas City, Texans, Dallas, then we're. Then they're out.
- [59:18]
A
How are the Chargers going to be at Houston?
- [59:20]
B
Exactly. And how if the. If the Broncos need the game, how are they going to win in Denver?
- [59:26]
A
So you need the Patriots to beat Buffalo this week.
- [59:29]
B
I need the Patriots to keep winning.
- [59:32]
A
Yeah.
- [59:32]
B
Because I need Denver.
- [59:34]
A
You need week 18 to matter for both sides.
- [59:36]
B
Okay. I need week 18 Denver and then.
- [59:39]
A
We'Re just in case.
- [59:40]
B
I'm telling you so then.
- [59:41]
A
And then maybe Mahomes doesn't get traded to Dallas.
- [59:44]
B
Okay. And then maybe. Can you wait?
- [59:46]
A
Can I pick a beef on one of your takes?
- [59:49]
B
It's your show and do whatever you want.
- [59:52]
C
Your whole.
- [59:54]
A
I saw what you you try. I saw the pox you're trying to put on Josh Allen. What do you mean I saw what you did. I saw the I the quip came across my Twitter feed where you did the whole. It is all set up for Josh Allen. He has to win now. This is lined up. If he doesn't win, it's a huge failure. I saw the.
- [60:15]
B
I didn't say it's a huge failure.
- [60:16]
A
But it was a good take. But it was ridiculous.
- [60:19]
B
What do you mean, Bill?
- [60:21]
A
Because the Bills aren't that good. They don't. They. They receive their top receiver catch output last week Was two. They don't have a receiver who can catch the ball nine yards past the. Past the first downline. They're doing everything dink and dunk like you guys a couple years ago.
- [60:36]
B
That's not.
- [60:37]
A
This is all Allen. Like if he gets into the super bowl with the offense he has, this would be a miracle. It.
- [60:42]
B
It would be. It is. You're 100% right. It's all Allen. And as much as I, to the marrow of my bones hated and texted mutual friends about your preseason Josh Allen take, it has aged well. And so I give you credit there.
- [61:01]
A
Age well is kind of an understatement.
- [61:02]
B
It's.
- [61:03]
A
It's aged amazingly. I put Josh over Mahomes and it was the right call. So I didn't feel great about it, but that's how I felt. So.
- [61:11]
B
But with. So here's. But here's what my take actually is. It has nothing to do with how good the team is. It is. It's actually kind of a Patriot compliment if you're Josh Allen.
- [61:22]
C
Yeah.
- [61:22]
B
And you have been a legitimate contender for the last five years. And in those five years you have been bounced in the playoffs four times by Patrick Mahomes and once by Joe Burrow and in those years played good, close. But you have won playoff games against Lamar and you have had a cakewalk of a division where every year it's like, we're going to have a home game. Yeah, we're going to. Right. And you go through that entire stretch and you don't make a Super bowl and then you have a season where Patrick, Josh and Lamar. I'm sorry, Patrick, Joe and Lamar are not even in the playoffs. And by the way.
- [62:08]
A
And Lamar's been replaced by an alien.
- [62:11]
B
Right. I want to ask you about that. And you know. Oh, shit. The division is about to be really hard because Drake May's awesome. You can't have a half decade of a terrible division and not break through and then a playoff run where you're the only in their prime hall of Fame quarterback in the whole tournament on your side of the bracket.
- [62:36]
A
Yeah, but what do you do with the 13. What do you do with the 13 seconds game in this argument though?
- [62:40]
B
No, it's.
- [62:41]
A
He did everything he should have done in that game and his coach screwed it up. The special teams, everything. That's like terrible by him.
- [62:48]
B
I totally agree with you. I think you're miss. And it's probably means if.
- [62:53]
A
No, I see what you mean. On. On paper. If he doesn't make it as the years pass you're going to. People will look at it and not remember all the details and all the little things that.
- [63:03]
B
And it's not even about like, like I want to make it clear. I'm not saying like oh, it's a choke job if he doesn't make it or like, or he didn't make it in the past because like 13 second game he was almost framed it like.
- [63:16]
A
It was a little bit of a joke job. What I'm saying is a negative framing. There was negative framing.
- [63:22]
B
You did it is a, a missed opportunity. He'll never have a playoffs again. I imagine that Joe Burrow, Lamar Jackson, Patrick Mahomes are not in and this is likely the worst Drake May will ever be in his career.
- [63:39]
A
Well, and also like listen, I love this pat's team. There's 19 different signs that they, they might have overachieved that this is peak Pats right now. Then you look at Denver, a team I don't think anyone's afraid of with a quarterback I don't trust at all.
- [63:54]
B
You agree? January, the Bills gotta get to the Super Bowl.
- [63:57]
A
But I don't think, I don't like teams that don't get explosive plays. Like basically he's the explosive play. Yeah. But their receivers I think are the worst that's ever been. Can we talk about, can we.
- [64:10]
B
Can I ask you about Lamar real quick or do you want to.
- [64:14]
A
Yeah, no, ask me.
- [64:18]
B
Can somebody please report on whether or not Lamar Jackson and John Harbaugh even talk to each other? This is the weirdest story in the league. So it is every time Lamar has suffered an injury in his career. John Harbaugh has had one timeline about when Lamar is going to play and Lamar has had a totally different one. One we were told three years ago, oh, it's nothing close to season ending. It was season ending the next year we were told. We think he's going to be back in a week. It was season ending this year. He was asked about why they had optimism after the buy. He's like, well, we're going to have our quarterback back. The game comes after the buy. The quarterback is not back. He then finally does come back and he has different random injuries that caused him to miss a day of practice. And by the way plays the worst football of his career while missing a day of practice each week. The worst football of his career.
- [65:18]
A
Did you see the next gen stats? His MPH is way down this year.
- [65:22]
B
Yeah, he doesn't really I down to.
- [65:24]
A
Like 12 miles an hour now. No, seriously. I read that today. He's went from like 16 to 12, by the way.
- [65:29]
B
Passes the eye test. He doesn't run and he's not as fast.
- [65:33]
A
I think I could run 12, the 12 minute mile. I think if I had a lot of coffee and maybe some cocaine, I think I could run 12.
- [65:43]
B
But just to finish it. This week, Lamar doesn't practice Wednesday. He's lit. It's listed as no injury. Harbaugh, when he's asked about it, says, yeah, you know, I think when you know a player says they need the day, you have to, you know, you trust the player. Doesn't cover for him at all.
- [66:01]
A
Meanwhile, so you feel like we're in Kawhi territory here a little bit. Like 2018 Spurs, Kawhi kind of.
- [66:07]
B
I think I, I Harbaugh, over the last couple, remember, like two offseasons ago, he's like, we believe Lamar Jackson is going to be not the best quarterback in the league. The greatest quarterback in the history of football. And then he, the following off season. So last offseason he was like, I want to make this clear. Forget running as a pure passer of the football. Lamar's the greatest passer the league's ever seen. Like, do protest too much, buddy. Like, I think you're trying to fix a relationship and Lamar, I think, is over at all. I think Lamar's checked out.
- [66:40]
A
And I would bet if we, yeah, if we were doing like the fantasy draft of coaches, we don't think we'll be coaching the same team next year. I think he would be a very high pick. Harbaugh. And by the way, Sean McDermott, if this goes badly, yes, I think he's on the list. I think Sirianni is on the list like that. It's funny, there's a lot of high profile coaches that, who knows?
- [67:02]
B
Would you do this? Who, who says no to this trade? Cause you saw Joe, you saw Joe Burrow say, if I keep playing, I need to be happy again.
- [67:12]
A
So when House and I do picks.
- [67:14]
B
Oh, sorry.
- [67:15]
A
They said no, no, I'm just saying this made me want to take the Ravens even though I don't even think they're good. It's like you, it seemed like Burrow is having like an existential crisis at the podium, you know, And I don't blame him because they spend the least amount of money of anyone other than maybe the Pats. They never are able to block. I don't know. I wouldn't want to be Joe Burrow in Cincinnati. I'd want to go somewhere else.
- [67:39]
B
So I have Two.
- [67:41]
A
Are you talking Burrow for Lamar? Just straight up like NBA style, Stefan Marbury style.
- [67:47]
B
I don't think they would do it within the div. And I think they're just going to fire the coach in Baltimore and keep the quarterback Joe Burrow for Jalen Hurts and one first round pick.
- [68:06]
A
I'd want more if I was Cincinnati, considering people are wearing Tanner McKee jerseys in Philadelphia right now.
- [68:12]
B
That's fair. But it, but that's at least, we're at least having the conversation, right? Like it's a. Hey, jail.
- [68:17]
A
I mean the thing that's available. You can't even make football trades like that. Which is by the way what the NBA has turned into now where this, these stupid aprons have ruined all the like fun trades we can make. But so Joe Burrow. If Joe Burrow went to the Eagles, they, God help us.
- [68:35]
B
He's got these two receivers like you.
- [68:37]
A
Know, God help us.
- [68:38]
B
The other, the other. There are the two other ones that involve draft picks are because in the NFL the most first round picks you can trade is three. Unless you have extra picks one year, you know who has an extra.
- [68:50]
A
You mean like the Rams?
- [68:51]
B
The Rams. If Stafford retires, I could see the Rams trading four firsts and three seconds for Joe Burrow.
- [68:58]
A
Well, the Rams got that Falcons pick.
- [69:00]
B
That's what I'm saying.
- [69:00]
A
For the 26 last year. That's not like the eighth pick in the draft.
- [69:04]
B
So I think the Rams would trade four first for Joe Burrow and I think the vikings would trade three first three seconds and JJ McCarthy and Joe Burrow gets to be with college teammate Justin Jefferson. I just know he's not happy. It's year six and he's saying if I want to keep playing, that's terrifying.
- [69:23]
A
I gotta say if I was a QB trying to look at my next 10 years, I would want to be warm weather endorse. I think Brady was an anomaly. I think Mahomes has been anomaly. But just in general, especially when you get to these December January games like T. Higgins, his head hits that like he's just a concussion. Like you're playing on a concrete parking lot. Basically. I have some quick questions before we go because I already kept you for an hour. Why does, why do you think Kevin Wilds hates conflict so much? Do you think it's like a childhood thing? Like what, what is it with him? Why does he just always want everyone to get along at all times and then he's on a sports take show.
- [70:01]
B
So I, I one time in passing described our Job as competitive sports debate. And Wilds had like a record scratch, full stop moment where he's like, hold on. To be clear, that is not what we do. I'm like, yes, it is. And he's like, no, it's just a good hang. We're having fun trying to do different jobs, bro.
- [70:29]
A
Having fun talking about sports.
- [70:31]
C
Yeah.
- [70:31]
A
In a polite way.
- [70:32]
B
Chatting. Now, I don't know if you've noticed a new Wilds has emerged.
- [70:38]
A
Well, confident Patriots Wild. Yeah, I, I noticed as the Chiefs.
- [70:43]
B
Have fallen and the Patriots have risen, we are really getting, you know, Peacock in. Kevin Wilds, as he regularly says right before the show starts. Well, because Bruiser Ravens guy, I'm the Chiefs. I guess I'm gonna have to carry the show again today, boys.
- [70:59]
A
Right. As the only.
- [71:02]
C
Yeah.
- [71:03]
B
Only team. That's good. All right.
- [71:04]
A
What else with the Wilds thing? So, I mean, I've known wilds for almost 20 years. You did this whole thing about media rivals, like your weight class, your generation of sports media rivals. When did you do that?
- [71:22]
B
So I did that. And you know, that was the first domino in a thing that landed yesterday.
- [71:28]
A
Oh, that's probably a thing. Yeah. You talked about other people, your age range.
- [71:32]
B
Yeah, I said anyone who does what I do or similar to what I do that is my age or younger, I consider a rival.
- [71:40]
A
And I want to vanquish them in.
- [71:41]
B
Cheek and I will vanquish them. Like, I need to be in my head atop that. Like, I don't. I've never really felt like I'm competing with you because I grew up reading you or whatever. I feel like you're competing with Colin and with Dan. You know what I mean? Like, that you're that generation. And I know you and Colin do different things, but, like, I do it like Colin Levitar, Dan Patrick. To me, we're all like competing for the same turf. So I had that for me.
- [72:13]
A
I disagree. I don't feel like I compete with any of those guys.
- [72:17]
B
Well, you're in a different.
- [72:18]
A
I don't even think about, like, that. I, I like how you're thinking of it, though. Like you're rising up.
- [72:24]
B
Yeah.
- [72:24]
A
You're rising up the ranks. These other people are rising up the ranks and you want to destroy them as you're rising up the ranks.
- [72:29]
B
Correct. And I tried to convince Wilds.
- [72:32]
A
Right. Wild needs a feud. That's what we're. That's what we're getting.
- [72:36]
B
So there's an obvious one. He should have.
- [72:39]
A
Oh, can I guess?
- [72:40]
B
An obvious rival.
- [72:44]
A
So age range it's age range. Is it Peter Schrager?
- [72:48]
B
No. Similar job as well.
- [72:51]
A
Similar job. So like kind of ringmaster for a show. Mike Greenberg.
- [72:56]
C
Yes.
- [72:57]
A
Greeny. Yes.
- [73:00]
B
I want Wild to start occasionally just dropping little sub sub tweets about Greeny.
- [73:09]
A
Oh, I'm happy to do that on this podcast to try to see if I can get it going. That sounds great.
- [73:15]
B
He will be so mad when he hears this because Wild is like, I don't, I don't want a rival. He thinks I'm insane. The whole thing. And I'm like, bro, Greenies. Greeny standing between you and the Emmy. Like I always, I always try to stoke it.
- [73:35]
A
He's in your way.
- [73:37]
B
Like he's standing between you and what you've worked for. But he won't listen me on it. It's like he's a Jets fan, you're a Pats fan. Like it all makes sense. You both really care about your hair. Like it makes sense.
- [73:51]
A
Wait, before we go, this is my last question for you. What do you want for the rest of the 2000s with LeBron James? What would be your wish? How does it. How does it. What's the perfect way for it to play out? He's your favorite player.
- [74:09]
B
Yeah. So my all time the for this year to go fine. You know, nothing crazy this year. Like I, I think the sea. I disagree with Rich. I think the ceiling is the conference finals. But they would have to get, you know, pretty lucky in the seating and all of it. I just think. I think, I think people sometimes forget how great Luca is. That's more of a Luca take than a LeBron take. But for this year to not have anything crazy, LeBron to be healthy.
- [74:42]
A
And. And then where's next year? What's your dream next year?
- [74:46]
B
Cleveland or New York?
- [74:48]
A
One year feels like Cleveland's the move it. Right.
- [74:53]
B
New York.
- [74:54]
A
It's not like Cleveland's lights out right now. I mean they're kind of a mess, right? And they'll, they'll be in that kind of. We gotta shake things up. Maybe he goes in, plays for a minimum and.
- [75:05]
B
And I guess my other dream would be that if somehow he rallies this year and once again makes an all NBA team, that Bill Simmons ringer 100. No way is going into this many.
- [75:18]
A
Good players this year. No. Well, that's true. That's fair.
- [75:22]
B
Guy was sixth in MVP voting last year. How many times do I have to hear about how. How Kevin Durant's better than LeBron James when he's never been better? Than LeBron James one year of his life from. From the guy that wrote the book of basketball. I got to listen to how LeBron's an injury risk. I'm like, I don't know. Durant's not healthy all that much. LeBron's problems. Every team Durant goes to is miserable. And I gotta listen to how Durant's 12 and LeBron is competing for. He's like, I don't know where to put LeBron. 24 felt good.
- [75:52]
A
He got hurt.
- [75:53]
B
Is he better than Alex?
- [75:54]
A
We do the rankings because he's 41, bro. He's 41. We don't know if he can play 40 games.
- [75:59]
B
Awesome. He was.
- [76:01]
A
Yeah, we put him up. We put him like, 11.
- [76:03]
B
Yeah. Thanks to the other people. You're right. He was dragging him down.
- [76:06]
A
No, I had him high by the end. I voted for him. Second team, all NBA.
- [76:10]
B
Yeah. I appreciate it.
- [76:12]
A
Like, it is. I voted for him for four MVPs.
- [76:15]
B
Yeah, that. Well, that means you cost him three.
- [76:18]
A
What are the three? Were there three?
- [76:19]
B
The. So I. I've heard you do this.
- [76:22]
A
Now there's only four. 2018 is his only other case. But then that. Then you have to just throw out the three weeks when he was throwing the tantrum and trying to get them to make trades. Toss it away.
- [76:33]
B
2018. There is a great argument.
- [76:37]
A
There is the.
- [76:39]
B
The year.
- [76:40]
A
Oh, 11, the first Miami year. There's a retroactive argument. No question.
- [76:44]
B
And the. The year Nash, he finished second in one of the Nash years.
- [76:51]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [76:52]
B
Oh, so. Oh, six.
- [76:53]
A
Oh, six, Maybe. Yeah. There's a case that Kobe should have won that year, though. Kobe should have two.
- [76:59]
B
That's. Oh, six. They didn't even make the playoffs.
- [77:02]
A
No, Kobe, that was the year they made the playoffs, and he averaged 35 a game, and it was fucking crazy. Oh, he should have won that year.
- [77:08]
B
Oh, you're right. Oh, five. They missed the playoffs. Oh, six. So that. So those would be the years that.
- [77:13]
A
I. I thought it was interesting. I. LeBron, it's not like he's unearthing a shitload of gems on that Mind the Game show. But him saying. No, I'm just saying.
- [77:24]
B
I'm not saying that 2018 was my peak. Is. Is interesting. Is that what you.
- [77:29]
A
I thought that was. I actually had a couple conversations about that with basketball friends. I was like, wow, I would have gone with that second Miami title year when they won the streak, when he was shooting, like, 60% for half the year, like, and he was, like, the best defensive player in the league. On top of it.
- [77:46]
B
So.
- [77:46]
A
But he was like adamant. It was 18.
- [77:49]
B
So that Miami year, he was the best defensive player in basketball. So that's the argument there.
- [77:55]
A
Well, on top of his shot, 60%, he was like queen of the chessboard. He was like peak of his powers that year. It was unbelievable to watch him 18, though.
- [78:04]
B
He had the, like that, that 2018 playoff run.
- [78:09]
A
The playoff runs.
- [78:10]
B
Crazy is the playoff run of his career.
- [78:13]
A
And the game seven, 48 minutes in Boston. Like the shit he was doing the game when he played against Golden State.
- [78:20]
B
Right. I mean that you've said it and I agree with you. I wasn't there. But you've said that, you know, that might be the greatest game, individual game you've ever seen. And it was like peak powers. Braun also, by the way, on the MVP's thing, did you not think he had a legit argument in 2020.
- [78:42]
A
At the COVID year?
- [78:44]
B
It was the COVID year. Giannis won it. He finished second. He, the Lakers had the best record in the league. He was unbelievable.
- [78:52]
A
But okay, I think I voted for Giannis. He was in the mix, though. No question. All right, so the biggest thing we learned is that Mike Greenberg and Kevin Wilds need to feud. Yeah, I'm going to do my best. We haven't solved my homes. You gave me hope for a Chiefs +580 playoff.
- [79:08]
B
That's what I'm saying. And if they make it, Bill, I'm telling you, part of this, part of the scenario is the Broncos have to beat the chargers in Week 18, which if that happens, the 2 seed probably will be New England. So if they make it, Chiefs pats, round one.
- [79:28]
A
Let's roll. Oh, my God.
- [79:30]
B
Nightmare.
- [79:30]
A
It'll be an amazing way to end the dynasty of the Chiefs. The mini dynasty.
- [79:34]
B
Oh, the mini dynasty. Thanks for having me on, Bill.
- [79:37]
A
All right. Nick Wright, solid A minus. I thought you did a great job.
- [79:40]
B
You know what? I. I just give myself a B plus.
- [79:43]
A
Okay. Great job. Good to see you. Hey, as you know, I'm a Patriots fan. Big game this weekend against the Bills. We kind of need it. I'm going to make some predictions using fanduels odds that they have some of the props for this. One of them is will Drake may use his legs more against better competition. This would be the Mahomes model. I only scramble when I really need it in big games. 20.5 rush yards over 100% over. Will the Bills continue to run effectively against my Patriots? I'm going to have Milton Williams, James Cook, 80 plus five rushing yards. I'm going under on that. The Pats have been good against the run, even with the I know it's down a little bit since Williams left, but I still feel like they're going to move everybody up and make Allen throw the ball. And then last but not least, Will Diggs have another revenge game against Buffalo 47 and a half receiving yards. I would go way over on that because I think this is the game where you unleash digs. He plays way more snaps than he's played all year and you're relying on him on any third down. A dark horse Anytime TD pick, it's always Hunter Henry in a big game. That's always where Drake May seems to look when he really needs them, so I would look at whatever his odds are. Usually they're in the 200 to 300 range. You can bet all these are Ringer 107 picks and so much more. And FanDuel be sure to check all of the available betting markets before the Sunday games. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. Every time I sit down and watch the game, I find myself getting a little hungry. Especially when football's going on all day. Football and food just go together. Luckily, Uber Eats has game day deals all season long on the food you love. Like right now, you can get a BOGO 10 piece chicken nuggets from McDonald's or whether you're ordering from your favorite restaurant or getting snacks from the grocery store. Whatever you're trying to do, Uber Eats has you covered for game day, so order now on Uber Eats promotion, available until December 14th. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Terms apply. This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by State Farm. Having insurance isn't the same as having State Farm. It's like expecting a linebacker on the football field, but getting a line cook. Sure, they both can handle the pressure when it starts heating up, but only one is stopping a touchdown. You wouldn't settle for just anything for your team, so don't settle for just any insurance. When it comes to getting help you need, State Farm is the real deal. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.
- [82:08]
C
All right.
- [82:09]
A
Joe House is here. He's sick. He's tired. It's 5pm on a Thursday. I said at the top of the pod House, if we don't win our picks this week, you're getting fired. As my conciliary, we're still going to do all the games. I'm just going to go rogue, not even involve you in the final five this is it. You got to step up. You're like Lamar Jackson. I need to see something now. We've just had terrible luck and it's getting to the point we're near the playoffs. Something needs to change. Made it to bring our back our picks. Relationship person Billy Gill.
- [82:40]
C
Oh, that was pretty good. Or we could have on and go four, four and one again, you know. All right, that's correct. And Verno Incorrect.
- [82:49]
A
I just had Nick right on for like an hour and 50 minutes and somehow we didn't talk about Phil Rivers. Oh, and I haven't talked about Phil Rivers all week. I think this is one of the most unbelievable sports stories of all time. My immediate, my head went right to how can we bet against this? Not playing for five years. But he knows the offense. This is absolutely ridiculous that he could just step onto the field with the speed of an NFL game. And he's playing the Seahawks, unfortunately, a team that has either the best or second best defense in the league, depending on how you feel about Texans. I'd have them second and I can't think of a worse situation. Not only has he come back to play them, he's playing the Niners, the Jags, then he's finishing at Houston. Are they trying to kill him? Why are they doing this?
- [83:37]
C
Yeah, I mean over under on number of games that he completes. Do you think that he makes it out of this this first game healthy?
- [83:46]
A
Well, to go through those first three and then you have to end with Houston, the team of freaking pit bulls, like what a nightmare. It shows how desperate they are. It also shows you that we really only have about 40 capable quarterbacks alive who could play an NFL game to the point that a team's like instead of signing somebody on a practice squad who's going to get annihilated, maybe Phil Rivers will be better after not playing for five years. I did go back and look up his 2020 and some of my notes from that year. Like a week by week. He wasn't bad on those Colts teams and even was okay in the playoff game and we never, I never had anything in my notes like with the pods with sour anywhere else where it was like Phil looks washed. It's over. It wasn't like the Matt Ryan situation but it was five years ago. He was 10 years old five years ago.
- [84:34]
C
I don't think he ever really lost arm strength. I mean I will have to check the next gen stats to see how many miles an hour he was throwing five years ago. But the thing that that became the Real issue is he couldn't move and I don't think that got any better.
- [84:51]
A
I don't think that got any better House. So my guess is this is as we go to Ringer 107. We had another classic week like the. We have the Bears. We think it's going to be a tight game. It was. It's a one score game. They're inside the 20. Turnover, they don't cover by half point. And then we had the, the Eagles which maybe we should have known. But I just think that Chargers team is so lousy. Not by a lot of fault of theirs. They've had so many injuries. But I just still can't believe the Eagles didn't finish that game. I don't know. I didn't. I watched the whole game and I still don't really fully understand what happened.
- [85:28]
C
By the, by the time Sunday rolled around, I will say this. I could not figure out why we didn't pick the Rams at the Cardinals. Why didn't we pick the Rams? Laying I, I laid on the Sunday show 24 and a half or 23 and a half points at plus 470. That was one of my, my, my favorite bets of the week. And you know what?
- [85:52]
A
I maybe for Ringer 107 next year we're going to have to have more gimmicky bets because we're both pretty good at those.
- [85:58]
C
I, I agree.
- [85:59]
A
Versus the straight ups. Or maybe we just have to make better picks. It's one or the other. The Rivers thing though. So this defense he's going against since week seven, starting with the week seven games, how many first half touchdowns do you think Seattle has given up seven games?
- [86:22]
C
Not very many.
- [86:24]
A
Four. Two against the Rams.
- [86:26]
C
Yes. Okay, there you go.
- [86:29]
A
My guess is they're going to do the super conservative handoff, handoff, handoff, play action. Handoff, handoff, play action. I don't think that's working in Seattle, especially when you look at the track record of these things. But it does make me like the under. I want to throw this serie though. The curse of Peyton Manning.
- [86:50]
C
Oh, okay.
- [86:51]
A
I don't know if I'm test driving this for you, for you in the audience. So remember, Peyton Manning gets hurt and the Colts have a terrible season.
- [87:00]
C
Yes.
- [87:01]
A
And they end up getting their number one pick and they get injured. Luck.
- [87:03]
C
Incredible.
- [87:04]
A
Manning a hero in Indianapolis. Beloved.
- [87:06]
C
Beloved.
- [87:07]
A
It's like, oh, they'll just probably trade out of that pick. Trade down. Get Peyton Manning some weapons. What do they do? Peyton, thanks for everything. Send him packing. He Goes to Denver and goes on a huge revenge tour and they have Andrew Luck. Since that happened, they get Luck, he ends up getting banged up. Retires Jacoby Brissette, Phil Rivers, Carson Wentz, Matt Ryan, Gardner Minshu, Anthony Richardson drafted top five Danny Dimes. They finally struck oil, blows out his Achilles. Now they've turned back to 45 year old Philip Rivers. I think it all goes back to that Peyton Manning decision and the rules of karma doing that to your best guy.
- [87:53]
C
I think they would.
- [87:54]
A
They got to look in the mirror a little bit. I think.
- [87:57]
C
Don't you think they would do that over again to have Andrew Luck?
- [88:04]
A
I wouldn't. If it was the Pats with Brady.
- [88:07]
C
Yeah.
- [88:08]
A
I don't know. I wouldn't. I wouldn't have been cool with it. I get it. I understand. It's just, I don't know.
- [88:14]
C
Pretty.
- [88:15]
A
So your takes on this. How much cold medication are you on right now? Should we just sit through these pics quite a bit?
- [88:21]
C
Quite a bit. No, I, you know, I'll get some energy going here.
- [88:24]
A
I have.
- [88:24]
C
I like a lot of.
- [88:25]
A
Please do. We're videotaping this and it's running as a podcast. Well, I was looking. Seahawks minus 13 and a half but we could take that to Seattle minus six and a half with the under of 48 and a half as a parlay. Great. Get us in the minus 120 and just fine. Make that at one of our picks. Sure.
- [88:42]
C
Done. Say less. That's easy.
- [88:45]
A
Is that game go to 49 points? Is there a scenario?
- [88:48]
C
No, no. I mean it would only be if Seattle ends up with a bunch of short fields and scores. You know, remember Seattle a handful of times this season has come out in the first half and dropped like 35 points on the team before. You know, the first, the first five drives.
- [89:04]
A
Well, the Colts lost Gardner Ward had a concussion. They do get bucked her back for the defensive line but I just. I can't imagine. I might. My guess is the Colts are going to try to really slow this game down. 40 seconds of play.
- [89:17]
C
I agree.
- [89:18]
A
Let's do nothing crazy field goals. Let's try to, you know, make Seattle make some plays on offense and it'll just be one of those games that each team has the ball six times or something.
- [89:29]
C
Yeah. Yeah.
- [89:30]
A
So. All right. So Seattle minus six and a half. Under 48 and a half. I only had one maybe game and it's the Ravens and the Bengals. It's Ravens in Cincinnati, Ravens minus two and a half. The Ravens had a five game winning Streak. Then they lose the Steelers by five. It's win or go home for them. There's no T. Higgins and yet it's 18 degrees in Cincinnati. Joe Burrow's been good in the cold weather. Lamar has not been a huge fan over the years. And then Joe Burrow has the press conference this week that Nick Wright and I just talked about where he seemed like he was having like a crisis on the podium about. I don't know why I'm doing this. Like it was like one of those where clearly wasn't super happy from a football standpoint. So I feel like it's a stay away but I wanted to talk it out. Did you have some strong thoughts on this?
- [90:23]
C
I would play the Ravens the way that they lost the last two games to these Bengals and then the Steelers were both like so heavily unlucky for them. I mean the way the ball bounced with the turnovers against the, the Bengals and the short fields that they gave.
- [90:44]
A
Yeah, they likely play all that stuff.
- [90:46]
C
Yeah. And then to follow that up with basically a carbon copy against the Steelers turning the ball over, you know and, and game deciding plays. 11 both times involving the refs. I mean the roughing call on the center turned into four more points for the Steelers and you know, Isaiah likely catching the ball, holding it for two steps but not, you know, dancing a pirouette with it and doing the splits means that it's not a catch. So Ravens lose.
- [91:22]
A
I had the Ravens marked down as well as a minus two and a half. Maybe we'll use it.
- [91:28]
C
Yeah, makes sense. The season's over if they don't win.
- [91:34]
A
Just quickly. Do any of these games. Did you had any of these games written down? Rams, Saints, Colts, Browns, Giants, Eagles, Jaguars, Texans, Niners, Cowboys or, or that's it. Any of those on your list?
- [91:48]
C
I did have Rams, I think Rams.
- [91:51]
A
-6 and a half at home. Against the Lions I thought it was.
- [91:54]
C
Five and a half but in, in either way it's, it's fine. I think that they are capable of winning by margin. This is a just a brutal situation for the Detroit defense. The Brian Branch injury just can't, you can't overstate how meaningful that is. They are on like their fourth string and fifth string safeties right now. Terry Arnold's been out for a bit. They don't get pressure anyhow. And so I think the Rams.
- [92:20]
A
Is this going to be on the Sunday show? Is this a Rams 30 plus points? It might be one of your picks.
- [92:25]
C
It might be. There's two, two candidates for that where I'm going to alt spread. I might do both. We'll see. Rams is definitely one of them, especially the way they, they took care of business against the Cardinals. All right.
- [92:37]
A
I am taking Bill's pats off the board because I think the Bills are the pick and I don't want to pick the Bills. We did that once in Ringer 107. I didn't feel good about it. 29 degrees with snow.
- [92:50]
C
That's so fun. Watch it and enjoy it.
- [92:53]
A
Yeah, I just.
- [92:56]
C
It's going to be great.
- [92:57]
A
No Milton Williams.
- [92:58]
C
Yeah.
- [93:00]
A
Buffalo needs it a little more than the Pats. But then the Pats are coming off a buy.
- [93:05]
C
Yep.
- [93:07]
A
No left tackle for the Pats. That makes me nervous. But the Bills have no explosive receivers. It was a pick them all week. It ended in Bills minus one and a half. Right now it feels like the kind of game the Bills should win and will win. And when you go Back to the 23:20 Sunday night game, the Pats, even though they won a lot of things won right in that game and they barely won.
- [93:29]
C
Yeah. It was three turnovers and 11 penalties on the Bills at home. Yeah. This one was just, you know, if, if I had to bet it, I would just bet on Josh Allen and that's it.
- [93:40]
A
Dolphins. Steelers in Pittsburgh.
- [93:42]
C
Interesting.
- [93:44]
A
Steelers minus three. Pittsburgh's defense. 27th EPA against the run. Miami has reinvented themselves. This is power running team. Although we don't know of how healthy a chance going to be. It's a mink of Fitzpatrick revenge game. TJ Watts probably out and Aaron Rodgers who looked good last week would have to then do that two weeks in a row. The catch is it's a Monday night game and it's going to be like 20 degrees and it's two in cold weather.
- [94:12]
C
Yeah.
- [94:13]
A
But then the zag on that because normally like two a cold weather done. The zag would be oh, as you press the cough button. Wow, you really are sick. The zag would be yeah, that's why you take the Steelers. But that's actually stupid because they don't really rely on two anymore. He barely has to do anything. They run, run, run, run. They don't want to ever have him screw anything up. So this is actually the perfect time to take tua and the line feels a little high to me. I got to be honest, I don't see any difference with these teams. This feels to me should be Tic Tac 1.5.
- [94:49]
C
Interesting.
- [94:50]
A
So I, I don't mind the Dolphins case. I think They've been pretty good the last couple weeks.
- [94:55]
C
I agree. And to your point, you know, I sat down after we took the abysmal jets and tried to do the math on what you know, that was just a bad read. Tua threw the ball 20 or 21 times for like 125 yards and the Dolphins ran the ball 41 times for you know, two, 200 yards or whatever. And HN just had had his way. I think that's, that's not a bad blueprint for, for going up against this dealers team.
- [95:25]
A
And look to. He, he did it in the jets game. Sal and I talked about it. He had a screen pass like from his own goal line that almost got picked off. It was just awful.
- [95:35]
C
Classic.
- [95:35]
A
I know he's going to do that. He's going against the Steelers team that has had a horseshoe and it's ass for most of the year. Maybe it's one of those things where it's like I can't believe we bet on 2 in 20 degree weather. What are we doing? But it's literally the only reason I can think of not to bet the Dolphins in this game. Other than you continually pressing the cough button and not knowing where we are at this point.
- [95:56]
C
It's very good.
- [95:56]
A
But I just feel like this is an either, either team could win game and we're getting a point and a half. I think the Dolphins are just better. Which surprises me to say cause I have all those unders that I had from before the season. I think half of them are probably gonna lose at this point.
- [96:14]
C
But I want to do some research. I understand directionally what you're doing and it's correct because the Dolphins were getting three and a half and it moved down to three. And at this stage of the week for that to happen, that means it's sharp money. It's not. The public isn't betting on the Dolphins and, and the Steelers on Monday Night Football yet. So that to me means that we're thinking correctly about the handicap for this one. I just wonder there, there are other games out there.
- [96:44]
A
Well, you left out the part that we've lost on the Steelers one way or the other. I think seven times this year. So let's, let's go back for more. For four games under.500. Let's try to solve them. I have two more games. This is my second favorite game of the week. Packers. Broncos. Packers. In Denver. Denver. I have them as six wins, zero losses and seven either or games.
- [97:09]
C
Okay.
- [97:09]
A
Nobody has legitimately beaten them this year. So if They're a professional wrestler. It'd be a lot of like ref count outs. Somebody interfered with the match, but they haven't actually been pinned. And I really think this is the week. I, to me like the, the, if you're going to go over under regression for the pats. Regression on the Broncos. The over unders one.
- [97:32]
C
Yep.
- [97:33]
A
And I think the bet probably is to say over on both. But I just think the packers are better. I don't think they care where they play and I think they might have the best all around team in the league right now that they could, they could do the thing where they score 14 points and we're furious at ourselves. I don't see it. I think they're good. I just think they go in there and roll.
- [97:58]
C
So it's schematically a matchup that really favors the packers and really disfavors the Broncos. So the Broncos play single high safety and they also play man coverage. And Jordan Love has been extraordinary against those two defenses. And on the other side, packers love to play zone and Bo Nicks gets lost in zone. I mean we just watched Jalen hurts. Yeah, good God. Get lost in zone. I think it's similar. The only thing that gives me pause is each time the Broncos have played a team that is a step up in class, they've really been impressive. I mean they beat Kansas City at home. They went to Houston and won. Now that was, you know, they knocked out C.J. stroud. Yeah, they, they went into Philly and won. You know, the, the Dallas win was, was pretty legit. So I, that, that's the only concern. But I'm, I'm with you. I'm, I'm prepared to play the, the packers here.
- [99:03]
A
So those games you listed that were their best wins. Casey team with a losing record. Philly, a team that's in a free fall. Houston. Stroud got hurt. They should have beaten Indianapolis during a time when Indianapolis was playing well. Yeah, I mean he could do this game with the Patriots too. I just to me this is like a weight class game. I think the packers are heavyweights and I think the Broncos are light heavyweights. It's literally, by the way, I think the Patriots might be light heavyweights too, just for the record.
- [99:35]
C
Well, I totally agree with you, which is why I did that exercise of going through their schedule. Yeah, this is a, this is a uptick in class. How have they done when they, when the class is up? But I, it's a different version. I, I, this, this packers team keeps showing us and I Have no problem at all with them on the road.
- [99:51]
A
And also the what the Bears were trying to do to them last week and did to some degree as they held Parsons for three straight hours, which I'm sure 50 of those clips got sent to the NFL League office. Yes. I just don't. I, I just, I, I actually think that should have been a slightly different game because the Bears couldn't really throw the ball at all, you know, and they were running, running, running, but. And then every time they passed, it felt like Parsons was just getting mauled.
- [100:20]
C
Yep.
- [100:22]
A
All right, last game, Chiefs, Chargers. Nick and I talked about this earlier. I already tipped our hand on this. 17 degrees. Chargers offensive line on the road. It's not even good at home. This is a classic Lombardi bad lines don't travel game. Chargers have been under 49 points their total games in every game since week seven. The Chiefs have six wins this year by 13, 15, 13, 31, 21 and three. Only one of those games went over 48. And you could either do the parlay of chief's money under 48 and a half, which I think is a great bet and I'm going to, I'm going to probably do in real life, or you just smash the Chiefs at five and a half and think that they're going to get a lead the Chargers aren't going to be able to block. The Chiefs need the game, Casey. It's going to be even hard to get a backdoor cover if you can't block, et cetera, et cetera. Just ride the Chiefs minus five and a half. Which I think if we want to use that parlay option, we only have one in ring or 107 on Seattle and the under to get that game in there. Then it's just Chiefs fuck it. Chiefs minus five and a half.
- [101:34]
C
I much, much, much prefer that approach to this. Let's use the parlay on Seattle because I think the Chiefs are. This is a smash spot.
- [101:42]
A
They.
- [101:42]
C
This is another one where I'm going to play alt spreads. It's just a brutal spot for the Chargers coming off an overtime Monday night game that was physical the whole time. And you know you mentioned that the pressure rate that the Eagles were able to mount was nearly 70%. They had seven sacks.
- [102:07]
A
And Herbert has one hand.
- [102:08]
C
Herbert. And. And it's going to be freezing. Freezing. Yeah. And. And as it is this Chargers team has not been good on the road they got since the offensive line injuries.
- [102:21]
A
Also California team in cold weather is another fun one.
- [102:25]
C
Right, right, right. Yeah. Smoke By Jacksonville. You know, I don't think they covered against Tennessee. Barely won against Miami, lost to the Giants. Just not, not a good team on the road.
- [102:42]
A
Is there a game we didn't mention that you think we should take? Because I'm ready to lock in Ringer 107 right now.
- [102:48]
C
No, the only other one that I'm kind of inclined to dabble is, is probably Carolina.
- [102:56]
A
I did look at that one for them.
- [102:58]
C
You know, there's, there's just Carolina and Baltimore are both in the same boat, which is it's revenge games. They're both on the road for both of those teams. The, their, their playoff fortunes depend on them winning outright.
- [103:14]
A
So.
- [103:15]
C
And, and you know, unsurprisingly, the line is the same in both games.
- [103:19]
A
Basically I did take a test drive of Browns plus seven and a half in Chicago in a 10 degree game and I couldn't get there. No, I did, I did, I did stare at it for a split second.
- [103:31]
C
And then that's too many points. But I don't want to bet it.
- [103:34]
A
And I also thought I don't want to bet the jets again after what happened last week.
- [103:39]
C
Never again. That's it for the season.
- [103:41]
A
But the Jaguars being favored by 13 and a half over anyone in the league gave me pause.
- [103:46]
C
Do you know the last time they were favored by 11 points or more? Do you know this? I saw, I ran across this nugget in the research.
- [103:52]
A
1998.
- [103:53]
C
Yeah, I mean you're, you're not that far off. It was 2007 the last time they were favored by 11 points or more.
- [104:01]
A
Wow. I didn't even know I. There was a Vikings. Just that line's too high too. There were a couple lines where I'm like wow, that's too high. Cowboys minus six and a half against the Vikings when we don't know if CDs playing. The Vikings are pretty much back defensively now and look good.
- [104:20]
C
Last week, three straight weeks of good defense.
- [104:22]
A
I thought that line would go down and it didn't.
- [104:24]
C
Yeah.
- [104:24]
A
And I wouldn't. I would. I'll put it this way. I would never want to take Dallas -six and a half. So I looked at that one as well.
- [104:30]
C
Yeah.
- [104:31]
A
This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. You'll find everything you need for the holidays at Whole Foods Market. If you're entertaining, explore limited time seasonal desserts like the holiday rum cake and much more. And for the main event, serve show stopping centerpiece mains like bone in spiral cut ham and their bone in rib roast. Succulent and special. They've even got great gifts like seasonal candles from 365 brand at everyday low prices in a hurry, skip the crowds and order online for pickup and delivery and select zip codes. Shop for everything you need at a Whole Foods Market, your holiday headquarters. This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into. That's why it's no surprise that more than 85% of the Fortune 500 use the ServiceNow AI platform. While other platforms duct tape tools together. ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data workflows and AI connecting every corner of your business with AI agents working together autonomously. Anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters Most. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people@servicenow.com all right. Ringer107 brought to you by FanDuel Sportsbook where we are not going to take either side of the Bills Patriots game. I can't handle it emotionally. We're not going to take any game with House's commanders because he can't handle emotionally.
- [105:55]
C
No, no.
- [105:55]
A
But we are going to take. We are going to take Seattle in a parlay -6 and a half, under 48 and a half against 45 year old Phil Rivers. Do I feel bad that it's an old guy that we're rooting against when we're two old guys and has to barely get through the podcast right now? I know. I don't.
- [106:17]
C
What are you talking about? He did make it.
- [106:19]
B
Yeah.
- [106:19]
A
There's one. Dolphins plus three against the Steelers. We are taking to a. In cold weather in the ultimate zag. People said they would. They never thought Simmons would ever do it. Take two in cold weather. And especially with House as this conciliatory. But we said fuck it. We did it on Monday night.
- [106:37]
C
We're going to be so mad. The text to each other Monday night. This might be how you're going to fire me. It could be that. That, you know it'll be Monday night.
- [106:47]
A
It'll stop me.
- [106:48]
C
We'll need it. Yes, we'll need it. To go three and two and you'll be like, you son of a bitch.
- [106:52]
A
I like how we did it though. We couldn't come up with a single reason to take the Steelers other than plus F. The Steelers favorite is always a disaster. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So that's two packers minus two and a half against the Broncos. We felt like this was a heavyweight against the light heavyweight.
- [107:08]
C
Yes.
- [107:09]
A
Chiefs Chargers thought about a parlay here but we're just going to. Chargers don't 100% need the game. Chiefs desperately need the game. Chiefs offensive line do need it. Need it. But the Chiefs are like their season's over if they lose. But 17 degrees. Chargers can't block. Don't overthink it. And then last but not least, we kind of begrudgingly landed on Ravens minus two and a half in Cincinnati based on a lot of different reasons including winter go home for Baltimore Bengals season over. No T. Higgins, 18 degrees in Cincy would be the reason not to like this with Lamar. But maybe this is a smash game where it's Derrick Henry being Derek Henry again.
- [107:51]
C
Could. Could have.
- [107:53]
A
And I would just be surprised if the Bengals won this. Yeah, like Hendrickson went on IR this week. No, Higgins like what they got there.
- [108:03]
C
The win that, that made everybody excited reminded everybody that Joe Burrow is Joe Burrow. That was on Thanksgiving. They, they. That was their Super Bowl. And they almost validated it with a great effort against the Bills in, in Buffalo. But now tough spot, division rival. They always split the Ravens and the Bengals. So this is the Ravens turn.
- [108:25]
A
That was the Ringer 107. Presented by FanDuel Sportsbook. All lines subject to change. Speaking of fandom Sportsbook, I mentioned this to Nick earlier. House, the Oklahoma City odds dropping for the 74 wins.
- [108:39]
C
Oh my God.
- [108:40]
A
Remember it was like plus 670. We were texting about it. What do you think it is now?
- [108:45]
C
Under four to one.
- [108:50]
A
Plus 2:35.
- [108:51]
C
Oh my God, that's horrendous.
- [108:54]
A
Plus 2:35. House.
- [108:56]
C
You know why that is though? It's because it doesn't matter if guys.
- [109:00]
A
Get hurt like we talked about. If. If Shay just was out for the season tomorrow, would they still win like 62 games? And the answer might be yes.
- [109:12]
C
I would. I would definitely say yes.
- [109:13]
A
I'm knock on wood.
- [109:14]
C
I hope that we don't want that to happen. Knocking on wood too.
- [109:17]
A
There was a couple streak things too, including 29 plus games beating Golden State's 28. Yeah, that's plus 450.
- [109:26]
C
Oh, that's terrible.
- [109:29]
A
Not great ads.
- [109:30]
C
You gotta give me a 10 to 1 on that at least. It's only happened one effing time them.
- [109:34]
A
To beat the Lakers 3312 to 1.
- [109:38]
C
Okay, now you're talking. Now you're talking.
- [109:41]
A
What is it now? It's like 17, something like that. Yeah. Cause their NBA cup, they're minus 250 now for the cup they were minus 135 for a couple days. And it was the dumbest thing in there. Nobody's beating them. Nobody's beating them in the play.
- [109:57]
C
These. Do these games count for the streak? The cup games?
- [110:01]
A
Good question. House.
- [110:04]
C
I want to check with the sports book.
- [110:07]
A
I thought the final game didn't count.
- [110:09]
C
Right.
- [110:11]
A
But it shed. Yeah. That's an interesting conundrum. I like that. Anything else you're noticing in NBA before we go? What do you guys been talking about in the ringer? Gambling show that, that Lakers performance.
- [110:23]
C
There's two performances where I, I wanted more out of Miami against Orlando and the Lakers against the Spurs. Now glass half full. And give Stefan Castle this huge tip of the hat that he deserves. He took the game over, but Lakers, you. You have no chance if you're not going to play defense. They just have no, they just don't. They don't get out there. They don't rotate. They, they're. They, they should be athletic enough, but they're. They're not. And I don't.
- [110:53]
A
Game was awful. I think there's just a certain type of team that's going to give them a lot of problems all season, those young athletic teams. Nick and I talked about that.
- [111:01]
C
Have you been in Detroit? Go ahead.
- [111:04]
A
Did you at any point during that game think to yourself how the Wizards didn't take Castle even though most of the people at the ringer thought he was the best bet to be the best part in that draft?
- [111:19]
C
I honestly don't really think it was a big mistake taking Sar because he, he is such a one of one in terms of the size and the ability to make an impact. One of them.
- [111:32]
A
I like this. This is.
- [111:33]
C
Yeah, I, I think he might.
- [111:35]
A
Alex Sar is a one of one.
- [111:37]
C
He might ultimately be like a very good defender and you can see how well he moves out on the perimeter.
- [111:42]
A
I like SAR too. I think it's Defensible.
- [111:44]
C
Yeah, defensible.
- [111:46]
A
That.
- [111:46]
B
That's.
- [111:46]
C
That's right.
- [111:47]
A
With that said, I was pretty sure Castle was going to be the best guy in that draft.
- [111:53]
C
I mean, what would it be doing on Washington? How would that help him?
- [111:56]
A
He'd be one of your 19 guards, right?
- [111:59]
C
How would he get better? I want to know if you've been in the trade machine for, for Tyler Hero yet. You started.
- [112:07]
A
What, for you?
- [112:08]
C
No, for anybody. He came back and Miami has looked bad and there's something their, Their, their offense is, is. Has glitched. They don't.
- [112:21]
A
Well, I mean, the call is always to Sacramento. That's my first call from a gm. Thanks for back there. Hey, you ever seen Tyler Hero play.
- [112:31]
C
We've got a white guy. That's a shooter.
- [112:33]
A
There was a story. I never know what to believe with these stories that end up on like on hoops hype, all these other places. But there was Sabonis to the Bulls buzz somewhere. I don't know whether it was made up or what.
- [112:45]
C
Yeah.
- [112:45]
A
But it was just so funny that Chicago and Sacramento making another trade. It's like the two teams that just don't know what to do, they just kind of. It's like these two people that keep hooking up when they. They know they're never going to date.
- [112:58]
C
Wait a minute.
- [113:00]
A
What do you mean, wait a minute?
- [113:02]
C
I remember those days. You do?
- [113:05]
A
A million years ago.
- [113:06]
C
It was a long time ago, but I remember those days.
- [113:09]
A
Would you try to trade Sabonis? Trade for Sabonis?
- [113:12]
C
That's an awesome question. As you were describing it and I. I think he could really help a couple teams. Honestly. No joke. I think he could help Miami.
- [113:22]
A
I mean, playing him with Bam.
- [113:25]
C
Yeah, yeah. Because Bam likes to get the ball at the free throw line. They run that offense with him at the top.
- [113:35]
A
I thought make it high, low. The most interesting one to me would be a Clippers move with Zubots in it and like a Zubot's Harden. You do that whole thing and. And Sabonis becomes basically the hardened replacement as like a focal point of the offense. That's just like we're. Neither of us are going anywhere. What do you. What do you think? One of those trades. The wild card team for Sabonis would be Golden State, which would not help their defense. Oh, wow. But would be so interesting to watch him in a system like that. I do feel like there's a team for him that could unlock a lot of the stuff that I like when I watch him.
- [114:15]
C
What about the Raptors? The thing that, you know, they. They get. They've hurt as usual. A bunch of guys missing games.
- [114:25]
A
I noticed that it's. The fans have gotten quiet.
- [114:28]
C
Well, they're. They're injured. I mean, RJ Barrett and quickly fans were loud.
- [114:32]
A
Found fans were loud. Was loud noises from Canada. And it's now eerily silent.
- [114:38]
C
Well, because their guys are hurt. What do you want?
- [114:41]
A
They still have Ingram. They still have Scotty Barnes. I mean, you know, it's not. It's not like they were in a bus crash. They missed a couple guys. Everybody has injuries.
- [114:52]
C
Those guys are pretty good.
- [114:54]
A
I have a couple. Even though I just did a long NBA podcast with Mahoney. The one thing I thought about watching that Tuesday Raptors Knicks game when they had their five.
- [115:10]
C
Yeah.
- [115:10]
A
That's the safest bet in the east, right?
- [115:13]
C
Yes.
- [115:14]
A
I don't know if they're gonna have their five in April, May.
- [115:16]
C
Yep.
- [115:17]
A
But if I just. If my life depended on it.
- [115:19]
C
Yes.
- [115:21]
A
So the fandom agrees because they're plus 270.
- [115:24]
C
Yeah.
- [115:24]
A
I don't know what's going on with the Cavs, but, you know, I don't think they could beat any of the top three teams, which Mahoney and I discussed from the west, but I do think they are. They're clearly the class of the east now because of whatever the hell happened in the Cavaliers. Yep.
- [115:43]
C
Cavs have a deal or two yet to make. They have to do something.
- [115:47]
A
My team's down to seven of one for the East.
- [115:53]
C
This is part of the thesis for why did we all go over for Boston or two. At least two of the three of us went over.
- [115:59]
A
We did. We had the right instincts with Boston and Indiana about the infrastructure and the guys who've been there, but Indiana just got immediately hurt.
- [116:06]
C
Well, Ma got hurt immediately and that was it.
- [116:08]
A
Yeah. That's just. McConnell got hurt right before the season.
- [116:11]
C
Right, right, right.
- [116:11]
A
Obi Toppin got hurt.
- [116:12]
C
That's a losing ticket, you say about it.
- [116:14]
A
Yeah, that was too bad.
- [116:15]
C
Yep.
- [116:18]
A
Yeah. It feels. Starting to feel a little nixy coming out of the East. And my. One of my questions, and this has been a big topic all week, is, does anybody say fuck it and try to chase when OKC is looming at the end with a giant pickaxe? The other team I would have is Orlando and this cup game of Nick's. Orlando, I actually think is that would be what I would bet on to be the east finals.
- [116:44]
C
Right. I like this.
- [116:45]
A
Of any two matchups, I think that's the pick.
- [116:48]
C
Orlando's played the Knicks tough, too. They went into Madison Square Garden and beat their ass, like, just out toughed them. Bain's pretty good in terms of.
- [116:58]
A
Yeah, Bain is. Bain is quieted the skeptics of all those picks that they gave up.
- [117:02]
C
He delivered an attitude. And then in Orlando, Brooks, he gave.
- [117:06]
A
A little Dylan Brooks edge. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The problem is this team can't play 10 games in a row without somebody getting hurt. Dating back to last year.
- [117:15]
C
It's outrageous.
- [117:17]
A
Did you hear Mahoney and I talked about this because it was Zach's idea about just a hypothetical Palo for Giannis trade. Who would say no faster was, I thought, a really fun topic.
- [117:32]
C
Who else does Milwaukee get in addition to Palo?
- [117:35]
A
That's it. It's a one for one.
- [117:39]
C
I don't know.
- [117:40]
A
I mean, do you want the brothers? I'll throw in the brothers.
- [117:42]
C
It's not terrible.
- [117:44]
A
It's actually, you know, do you want thanasis and Alex? 3 for 1.
- [117:49]
C
That's a package deal. Let there be no doubt.
- [117:52]
A
Thought it was a fun hypothetical.
- [117:54]
C
Interesting. I don't hate it.
- [117:56]
A
The one team out of all the ones with the assets, the one team that could chase if they really wanted to is Atlanta. They have a whole bunch of stuff they could do.
- [118:04]
C
Yeah.
- [118:05]
A
Can we talk about Derek Queen really quickly before we go?
- [118:07]
C
I'd love to.
- [118:07]
A
He's a DMV guy. Yeah. You've known him since forever.
- [118:11]
C
Baltimore high school area and then played the University of Maryland.
- [118:14]
A
Our boy junior who's one of the hottest AU coaches in the, in the country. What's his high school now?
- [118:21]
C
No, he coaches high school. He coaches Paul the six, which is nationally ranked every single year.
- [118:25]
A
But I thought he also did like a club team too though.
- [118:28]
C
No, he doesn't really do that.
- [118:29]
A
Oh, he doesn't do that. All right. My bad.
- [118:31]
C
6 is a, is a full time job.
- [118:33]
A
Right. So he. Queen, he's known forever.
- [118:37]
C
He has. He was a team with Cooper Flag.
- [118:41]
A
And he was a voice crying in the wilderness during the Queen trade. Like, hey, by the way, Queen's really good. I know they shouldn't have put productions on that pick or they should have put protections on that pick. But. But yeah. Have you seen Queen, though?
- [118:56]
C
Of course, yes. I mean, rooting, rooting for that kid. The only thing that was like a kind of question mark, there was a, you know, a sort of sentiment that he needed to grow up a tiny bit. But it's. He, he's showing a level of professionalism. Yeah. In a situation where you really have to work hard. Yeah.
- [119:19]
A
They have so many guys that I like. I think Murphy's a pro too. They have. They're pros in that team. Let's see, what are they gonna.
- [119:25]
C
They get? Just gotta move that team.
- [119:28]
A
Before we go, we got to talk about Bob Chesney going to ucla.
- [119:32]
C
Your guy.
- [119:33]
A
Well, he. I wasn't ever going to say anything, but he kind of talked about it in a, in a radio show or something he did about how I, about how I started the whole process.
- [119:45]
C
Wow. Gave you credit.
- [119:47]
A
So now I have to tell the story. He did this. Was they fired whoever the coach was mid September. And my friend Casey, who's one of the people, the UCLA boosters in charge of trying to figure out who the next coach should be. And he asked me. He's like, any idea what we should do? And sent me some names. And I was like, how do you not get the James Madison coach? So I started bombarding him with stuff from when he coached our beloved Holy Cross and how he completely transformed college football for us.
- [120:23]
C
Yes.
- [120:23]
A
And as I'm doing. This is like mid September. As I'm doing that, James Madison just keeps winning and winning and winning.
- [120:30]
C
True story.
- [120:31]
A
And then I looked like a prophet. Maybe they would have found him out anyway. But as. As they're looking at this, James Madison's going up. And at some point it got serious. But. Yeah.
- [120:42]
C
Well, James Madison's now in the playoffs.
- [120:44]
A
James Madison's now a 12 seed in the playoffs. Our guy, Bob Chesney, who took Holy Cross to the semifinals.
- [120:52]
C
He did that. Yeah. For sure. That's. That's who UCLA fired.
- [120:57]
A
Yeah.
- [120:57]
C
My single favorite thing so far from Chesney, in addition to him giving you credit. That's amazing. Is he's already saying, like, hey, usc, you got a little. You're a little comfortable. I know that you think that you own college football in this town. Just get ready. I love that.
- [121:18]
A
I'm really excited because obviously I don't have a college football team other than Holy Cross, who. Right. Punted on college football, except for when we had Bob Chesney. So I feel like legally I'm allowed to really adopt UCLA now. And I'm all in.
- [121:32]
C
It's where you live and it's your guy.
- [121:34]
A
I've kind of wanted to know a team we'd like. We test drove the. The. When we got the King season tickets. My kids got into that. But I was still. I couldn't not root for a Boston team. That got weird. I feel like this is pretty clean.
- [121:46]
C
I agree.
- [121:47]
A
Right.
- [121:47]
C
We've never. Neither one of. I root for Maryland because I grew up.
- [121:51]
A
You were from Maryland. Basketball.
- [121:52]
C
But.
- [121:52]
A
Yeah.
- [121:53]
C
The three miles from the campus and the football's been good, you know, like four or five times over the.
- [121:58]
A
Now I'm in. I might. I might just be. I might just throw myself into this UCLA thing, though. I really want this to work.
- [122:05]
C
Who's gonna stop you?
- [122:06]
A
Yeah. He's giving me partial credit.
- [122:09]
C
Come in.
- [122:09]
A
But by. Anyway. Bob Chesney, ucla.
- [122:13]
C
Congrats.
- [122:14]
A
And. And we'll see how it goes. Because they've tried to hire all these different coaches, and they've done the Chip Kelly route.
- [122:21]
C
They did the.
- [122:22]
A
We. Oh, here's an alumni who used to play for Us now it's like, hey, maybe we should just get an awesome coach who's. Who wins all the games that he coaches.
- [122:29]
C
An innovative coach. Like just, just look at a couple of times. It's some of the offense that he, the schemes that he puts in place.
- [122:36]
B
Yeah.
- [122:36]
A
And builds a culture around players. So anyway, I'm all in love. Ucla. Welcome me aboard. How she went in. Are you going to move for him too?
- [122:44]
C
Maybe, maybe. We have to talk to Louis.
- [122:45]
A
It doesn't. Louis root Lewis is all in. I was telling Louis in mid September that this was in. This was. I was like, hey, you got to watch. Watch what's happening with James Madison because that might be your next coach.
- [122:58]
C
Yeah, Yeah. I bet he sent you a bunch of eggplant emojis.
- [123:02]
A
Honestly, Louis is so far up Will Arnett's ass this whole holiday season just doing PR for and then Polar and I and he's got Jimmy and I. I'm like a blip on his windshield. I'm like a bug that hits his windshield sometimes.
- [123:17]
C
In view of what you just gave him, how much you improved his life, I mean it's, it's kind of immeasurable when you have a great football team that you root for.
- [123:27]
A
He's like, I think he's 48. So he's the right age.
- [123:31]
C
Oh yeah.
- [123:32]
A
Like they're gonna get. It's like when the Pats just got variable. He's like the right age, right time, perfect for fit. And I'm really excited. So for the UCLA fans, like this is not a joke. Like Chesney like changed.
- [123:44]
B
We.
- [123:45]
A
We had given up on football. We didn't care at all and never thought Holy Cross was going to care. And he just went in and single handedly transformed it.
- [123:52]
C
Y.
- [123:53]
A
And it was unbelievable. We went to the. That semifinals. Who do we play? Like South Dakota State or somebody? And they. All the guys in that team were 300 pound offensive linemen. It was like a pretty pro team.
- [124:03]
C
And we, we competed for.
- [124:05]
A
We competed.
- [124:06]
C
Yeah.
- [124:06]
A
Yeah. We were hanging around.
- [124:07]
C
Yeah.
- [124:08]
A
So anyway, congratulations.
- [124:10]
C
Great job, Coach House.
- [124:12]
A
I hope you feel better. I hope, I hope you don't get fired if our picks suck and you're the boss.
- [124:18]
C
Whatever you want to do. I'll be.
- [124:20]
A
Good to see you as always. Good to see you.
- [124:22]
C
See you.
- [124:23]
A
All right, that's it for the podcast. Don't forget to listen to the rewatchables with Shampoo High Fidelity coming on Monday. You have four days to watch the that. Don't forget about the new Max and Rich podcast we launched Game Over. They will have another one coming on Friday. I'm really happy we launched that one. I'm glad it's doing well as well. And don't forget about Music Box Whiz Kid. It is up. Go check it out. That's it. Go Patriots, please. For the love of God, let's beat the Bills. Must be 21 plus on President in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + on President in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem? Call 100 Gambler, visit rg-help.com, call 888-797-777 or visit ccpg.orgchinconnecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland, hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York Monster Energy Everybody knows White Monster Zero Ultra. That's the OG. It kicked off this whole zero sugar energy drink thing, but Ultra is a whole lineup now. You've got Strawberry Dreams, Blue Hawaiian Sunrise and Vice Guava, and they all bring the Monster Energy punch. So if you've been living in the White can branch out. Ultra's got a flavor for every vibe, and every single one is Zero Sugar. Tap the banner to learn more.