← The Bill Simmons Podcast
The Bill Simmons Podcast
The Floundering Cavs, OKC-Boston Gut Checks, and Lottery Karma Power Rankings With Ryen Russillo
02:26:32
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- [00:00]
Bill Simmons
You're listening and watching the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel, our friends America's number one sportsbook. And they've made it easier than ever to get in on the action during an NBA playoff game. Even after a tip off. Just look for the live SGP tab on the FanDuel Sportsbook app and build your own bet slip. Then sit back, relax, track the outcome of your parlay right in the app. And if you don't already have it, download the FanDuel app today to make every moment more the Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end episode for additional details. Must be 21 plus on President Select States gaming problem, call 100 Gamble or visit rg-help.com Coming up, an action packed weekend of NBA playoff basketball. Priscilla and I broke all of it down and Lottery Karma rankings next. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. What do I look forward to every NBA playoff season? Well, I'm always hoping the Celtics do well. I'm always hoping we have great storylines, great games, great matchups, great game Sevens. I just hope for good basketball. But the NBA playoffs are even better with Michelob Ultra, the official beer partner of the NBA. Plus they're getting fans closer to the game with a chance to win courtside tickets and more. Enter now at michelobotro.com Courtside Michelob Ultra Superior Access Courtside 2024-25 sweepstakes. No purchase necessary. Open to US residents 21 or older. Ends on July 1, 2025. Multiple entry periods. Visit michelobulture.com SuperiorAccess Courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and official rules. Message and data rates may apply. Void where prohibited. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. I have a new rewatchables coming for you Tuesday. Not Monday. Tuesday we did Death Wish with Charles Bronson because it is a big ass 70s month. So the reason it's Tuesday instead of Monday is because I'm going to do a podcast on Monday. We're going to do a podcast after Celtics, Knicks and after the lottery and just doing it. And I think the schedule might be Sunday, Monday, Wednesday and either Thursday or Friday this week. So I think I'm doing four on this feed this week. So rewatchables will be Tuesday. That's Death Wish. You can watch it on Ringer Movies as well. You can watch all the YouTube clips, videos, live stuff from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. Rosilla and I, we. We recorded a bunch of this earlier today right after the Denver OKC game. And then the top part of the podcast is right after Cleveland, Indiana, which was an absolute debacle for one of those two teams. We're going to talk about it next. First, our friends from Pro Jam. All right, taping this top part of the podcast. Here it is 7:30 Pacific Time. We're doing that during the Cavs Pacers game because that game ended about an hour ago, even though they're still playing it right now. And James Johnson just came in. Uh, the Pacers, 25 assists in the first half, which is a number I did not know is attainable. And they absolutely ran Cleveland off the floor. And just when you thought it couldn't get worse, the third quarter started and Donovan Mitchell was nowhere to be seen because he apparently hurt his ankle. And the Cavs are now down three to one heading back to Cleveland for game five. And the Pacers have completely, thoroughly, totally and unequivocally outplayed them and have momentum. And this is now looking really dangerous. Not just for this season, Marcillo, for the Cavaliers. But big picture, if you get wiped out like this by the Pacers, I'm not sure what you do heading into the summer, and I'm not even sure what the fixes are. And maybe you look at it and you take a breath and you go, all right, just wasn't our round, I guess. Let's run it back.
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Ryan Rosillo
We did.
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Bill Simmons
We won 64 games. I find it hard to believe that's how it would play out, because this is really bad how this has played out.
- [04:14]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, the assist number at one point, it was 20 to 2 in team assists. And, you know, they're just flying around. I mean, this game is, like, overwhelming. I'm still a little in shock. Now, look, two things here. If Cleveland goes 82 and oh and they lose a series, they go 82 and oh next year, no one's going to care because people are going to say there's this fundamental flaw with this team. If you're Cleveland, you're going to probably run it back and you'll start to make excuses, which I think think are worth bringing up. You have game two. We're missing Garland, we're missing Mobley, we're missing Hunter. And you still, if you inbound the basketball, you could win that game. Mitchell leaves. They were. They weren't coming back in this game, even with Mitchell being out. And you're like, hey, Garland was never really Right now. I know, like, I'm not sitting here suggesting that's the only reason you. You're here, but that's probably what they would do, wouldn't they?
- [05:09]
Bill Simmons
I think you're right. But I'm also stunned that it was this much of an ass kicking today, because usually game four is the, like, what we watched and we're gonna talk about later in the podcast, that OKC Denver game where both teams kind of realize the stakes in the moment and what needs to happen. There's a level of intensity and, and just there's a caring that usually exists in a game like this. And from Cleveland, from the get go, you didn't see it. They weren't rotating on defense. They were just getting sliced and diced on that three, two zone. And I think the thing that really stands out to me beyond just the talent and whether this might not be a great matchup for Cleveland. Indy's feisty. They play with a real chip on their shoulder. They've done that all year. They love playing really good teams or teams with great players, with the Lakers, the Celtics, whoever it is, they really come out with their chest puffed out. They try to start shit. They're agitators. They have a real personality to them and they kind of know who they are. They have a real identity. And for whatever reason, Cleveland feels like it's losing its identity as these playoffs go along. It's like, what is this team? Allen had a 19 and 12 in game three, and in game four, he got buried in the first half as that went sideways. But they, they have the, the garland piece, which I know he's been hurt. He, you know, I know his stats are okay today, but he looks okay. Not great, but you would think, like, they're equipped to, to fill in if he's hurt or playing 80% because of how deep their bench is. And then the bench didn't show up. And then Mitchell basically was superhuman in game two and three. Right. He did so much like his body ended up breaking down from. Just feels like if these teams played 20 times, I'm not sure how it would go for, for Cleveland. So I can't decide if this is a bad matchup. Could this have happened if they played Milwaukee? Like, what Big picture, what does this mean? Was this like a, like a mid 2010s Atlanta Hawks type team? Is there a road back for them? I'm just, I'm swimming with questions and I have no answers.
- [07:17]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, there's a tweet. I think it's right. I Don't know. Then double check it. But if you look at where Cleveland was this season, right? So 14 teams in NBA history that won at least 64 games and posted a barge of victory of nine or points, nine points or better, 13 reached the NBA Finals. The only team that didn't was the 1516 San Antonio spurs, right? Zaza Kawhi.
- [07:44]
Bill Simmons
So that year, wasn't that the year after 17? That was Durant's first Warriors year, right? That 16 team, that was that weird NBA season where there weren't a lot of good teams that year, remember? And they did. They did well. But it was, you know, we. We weren't ever really. It was always the warriors year. It always seems like it was getting warriors in the CAVS.
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Ryan Rosillo
It was 17. So. Yeah, yeah, look, I mean, this is. This is pretty ridiculous that you would be this good. And then all of a sudden, like, is it. Is it just a bad matchup? Part of it. You know, the crazy thing about Cleveland, like, going into the year, it was, how are you going to figure out a way to win in the playoffs with the Alan Mobley piece of it? Well, Mobley got better. Atkinson staggered them. You know, I always think about that Cleveland comeback against Boston, in Boston, where they closed with Hunter and Mobley and took Allen off the floor because they didn't like the way Tatum was getting at him and switches. So I was like, okay, is this something that we'll see in the play? Like, all of these basketball things that you would think that are part of the conversation, you know, it doesn't really apply to. You're sitting there looking at, hey, are they ignoring, ignoring any of these guys in the space? It's like, no, Indiana is actually getting anything they want. I think the most impressive thing from this game, which is also part of what I think is absolutely correct, is the Pacers have this real edge to them, is whatever they did from Game 3 to Game 4 in preparation of this 3, 2 zone that Cleveland runs, they figured it out, and the coaching staff prepped these guys great. The execution of it was terrific. And you could see that Cleveland was scrambling because, you know, really, the zone stuff that we're seeing constantly throughout these playoff games, everybody knows this. You just got to figure out a way to get it to collapse. You got to get away to attack the middle, and then you can attack off of that because you're trying to keep the ball out of the middle.
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Bill Simmons
They ran the roller going down the middle, and then either he goes to the rim or he kicks it back out and they were doing it perfectly today.
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Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, they had a pick and roll with Toppin at the free throw line. He rolls, and then guess who he's finishing against. Because Mobley was at the top. Like when this thing was working in game three, you're going, my God, Moby Mobley is chasing everybody around and contesting and trapping and screwing up. The first thing that you want to do, you have the luxury having Evan Mobley at the top of a two, three zone. Or excuse me, a three, two zone. Because Allen can play underneath them. Well, in these minutes where Toppin was destroying them in the first half, Allen was out. So then they switched it to Mobley underneath. Then the Pacers got another good look, and then they brought him back. And then they went to man. And then Turner hit a three. And then there was another play where they were like, okay, I think we have this again. They're. They're down so big. You can't say, hey, now we're settled on defense and we know what we're going to do. And then Neesmith hits an end of his shot clock. So, like, everything that possibly could have worked out, I think started with them having a much better plan and being way more comfortable with a 32 that even TJ McConnell admitted. And that screwed us up a little bit there in game three. So Cleveland thinks they have this answer. They have this defensive thing that they can do, especially when it's those two guys. And yet they got destroyed in a bunch of different versions of it tonight.
- [10:36]
Bill Simmons
Right. And the Pacers, I say this as the highest compliment I can give. Cause I really love this team. But they were. They look a little 2014 spurs ish at times with the way they play with each other and the ball moves around with the added bonus that I think they're a really good transition team. And Halliburton, you know, especially in a game like today, when there was one pass he threw, he was at mid court and he just threw this lob pass in the corner. Almost like watching a quarterback throw a lead pass to receiver down the sidelines. Just casually threw it. And he had a guy running down and caught it, like in stride, stopped and had a look. And I was like, this team sees angles that I don't normally see when I'm watching basketball. They really have fun playing with each other. They have all these guards, they pressure full court. I think they're a huge pain in the ass to play. I think you want to punch them in the face after, like, game two, which we saw today, Matheran you know, goats hunter into a thing and then thinks he's the smart guy. And then they review it and they're like, no, actually, you're getting tossed. But they just want to get under your skin. And I think they're annoying to play. I, it's no surprise to Celtics fans because this is a team that has come every time they played the Celtics. They brought it. They start shit. They're really hard to play. They have a deep bench, they're really good at home. They get a good crowd, and I think they're for real. I thought they were for real all year. With that said, I'm shocked that Cleveland could look this bad in an important game. And I don't know whether Mitchell, it took so much for him those first couple days with, you know, such a burden. I'm not sure. I just think basketball is really hard now in 2025. You know, it's, it's you when you have those games, like that game that he had when he was literally dead at the end of the game, and you're doing everything, all the running and all the contact and the amount of times he was bouncing against people and finishing and I don't know, I, I, I, I hate to shit on the old generations because, you know, I love all that basketball, but I just think it's harder. I think these games are harder. I think they're more physical, they're more taxing, and it's a lot to ask from these dudes to put an offense on your back like that, you know?
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Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I mean, that might be, I mean, I'm open for anything, but to come out that flat and to let it get away from you the that much and, you know, you still felt like the front line depth, Cleveland versus Indiana, like, at what point would you have gone? You know, I think Miles Turner is going to be able to hold up here. I mean, every backup center minute for the Pacers this year because they lost so many guys injuries, you're thinking, like, how are they going to ride this out with Turner? Because it still felt like Turner was somebody that you could attack. Granted, the shooting that he gives you in the spacing opens up a lot of the stuff that you're talking about and how they're able to attack. But it's just crazy to see 48 hours later, this looked like a completely different series. Especially when, you know, the Cavs should be able to win a game on the road, which we saw. They've got to be kicking their ass still from game two for allowing that to happen. So there's part of me that still thinks like, man, if they just inbounded, okay, then today happens and then it's 2 2. So. So where are we going with all this stuff? But I mean, Cleveland, if they don't win this series, which it doesn't look like it's going to happen, down 31 now they are going to be like completely written off. And if they run the same group back, which is usually the default of what a GM would do, like, hey, we're really good. This is what we did to the regular season. We had our hiccups that we mentioned at the top, which I'm say, I'm sure they would say internally with each other, but this was just alarming to start a game that matters. This mo. Matters this much and just at no, like, hey, it's 20. Okay, well now it's 30 and then it's 40. It just was an ass kicking and I'm, I'm still kind of shocked.
- [14:19]
Bill Simmons
Me too. Well then if you're the Celtics, you win this game and Saturday you have this Knicks game on Monday. That's I think one of the biggest Knicks games of this century. But now you're looking at, hey, if we can just, we've outplayed the Knicks for 93% of this series. Let's take care of business, win three more. We're going to have home court for round three potentially with Indiana, right? So it goes from, let's say, let's even say it goes to seven and they're able to hold on and beat the Knicks in seven. And game one of the next series is in Boston on a Wednesday, you know, and you get the game seven potentially at home too. It's an amazing turn of events when you consider A team won 64 games in the conference. And you know, I, I really believed in Cleveland. I thought this was going to be a really hard series because I'm also, as we talked about many times, I just really thought Indiana was good, but I really was sold on Cleveland as a team. I thought they had a bench. I believed in Mitchell as a, as a guy who could be the number one guy in a potential finals team. Thought they were there defensively, but the signs that were there, if you're really looking back, we talked about it some with the net rating for the last 25 games, last 30 games, and they just were better the first 30, 35 games than they were the rest of the year. And the defensive stuff was the stuff that I think there were some subtle Red flags. They just weren't a top five or six defense anymore, really, from the All Star break on. And the question was, why? What was happening? And then you see, like, today, you know, they're. He's. When did he put Okoro? Yeah, Okoro was in there a bunch, but he's. I almost felt like Atkinson was grasping for straws a little bit in this game. Like, he's just trying lineups and players. I'm saying the first half, like, I hope Okoro has something. It's like, wow, you guys are at that stage. You know, I hope Okoro can give us an offensive boost. Stage of the season.
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Ryan Rosillo
When Okoro got in there, it felt like it was. It was kind of already over.
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Bill Simmons
But, yeah, they were down 30.
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Ryan Rosillo
Ty Jerome comes in, and you're hoping, like, he can kind of be Ty Jerome. He's been awesome. And even in the game where he had a lot of. A lot of points, I mean, he took 20 shots. You're like, man, a playoff game with ty Jerome taking 20 shots. Like, we like him, but I don't know if I like him that much. And you would have thought, like, can he at least, you know, not to be TJ McConnell, but can he be somebody who gets you into some really good stuff as you're trying to figure out the Garland situation with him being out, and then that turns into a disaster. Hunter today, five points, five fouls. So that acquisition hasn't paid the dividends that you'd expect it to have. The rebounding numbers like, granted, Indiana didn't miss, so there weren't a ton of potential rebounds, but 47 combined minutes. When I wrote it down, when it was 98, 64, those guys combined had seven rebounds. Again, it also speaks to how well the Pacers are shooting the ball. But I'm going to ask you this, because as much as we're talking about the Pacers, like, hey, they're a feisty team. They're going to be a tough out defensively. You're right. Like, you start looking at the defensive rating as teams are closing the season. After the All Star break, The Pacers were eighth. You know, it's a team that went 20 and nine. Some of the Cleveland slip off. I think at the time, we were like, all right, is that real, or is this a team that's just been cruising to the one seed the entire time?
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Bill Simmons
The one seed locked.
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Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. So, I mean, there's. There's ways you can look at that saying, hey, the Pacers number feels more real because they're closing and they're kind of fighting for everything. And the PA and the Cavs and the other side of it, like, whatever. But let's just say the Pacers get through the east okay. I mean, have you ever thought of Halliburton as a top 10 player in the NBA?
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Bill Simmons
I don't know if I still would even if they got to the Finals.
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Ryan Rosillo
So it's kind of like whenever I looked at the Pacers, I'm like, man, there's a lot of stuff to like. I don't know if they're really going to go with this rotation. Are they really going to play this many guys? And the answer is yes. The defensive part of it has been real in the way that they've closed because last year I just thought they were complete, like, all right, whatever, like cool that you're in the Eastern Conference finals. But I mean, they don't really take you seriously defensively.
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Bill Simmons
They got some luck.
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Ryan Rosillo
Right. This would be unlike the blueprint that we. Of all the things that you think are real in the NBA.
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Bill Simmons
Yeah.
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Ryan Rosillo
You go, all right, well who's your best guy? And like, who's your second best guy? The Pacers. Even the biggest Halliburton fan, like, don't check that box. And I think that's the.
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Bill Simmons
But that's why the comparison circle back to yeah, but that's why the 2014 Spurs. That's what made me think of. That's what this feels like a little bit if that's how it played out. Because remember, Duncan's at slightly different stage of his. He's at the telltale end of a really great career as like a guy who could be a 35 minute a game guy for somebody. Kawhi wasn't Kawhi yet then. Parker was probably the most talented guy in the team in terms of where he was in his career. Diao's there, Ginobi's older, you know, but the team made sense when you saw everybody together. And I think Indiana has a little of that. The team kind of makes sense when you watch them. And I do think they have. Even though they're not a traditional awesome defense, they do like Neesmith's a really good defender. Like if. If you're just throwing him on whoever the best perimeter guy is on another team, you can feel pretty good about that. You know, they hit threes and they're deep and they really like to play with each other and they really, I feel like, have an identity, which is all I'm looking for when we get to Mid May. Do you have an identity? And that's what's weird about Cleveland is what's your identity now? Cause you're not great on defense. You're very Mitchell heavy. I'm not positive who your best five guys are.
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Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, but we know who their best four guys are. That was the whole point of this team is we knew who their four were.
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Bill Simmons
It's a kind of a big thing. Cause you have two bigs and two smalls, and then it's like, yeah, but those are.
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Ryan Rosillo
Hunter, I don't know that I'm ready to audit the Cavs and that those four guys just aren't that good now. I mean, who cares who their fifth is when those are your four?
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Bill Simmons
I wasn't saying they weren't good.
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Ryan Rosillo
I just don't care who their. I just don't care who their fifth guy is when it's. When it's that good of a four. Or at least it's supposed to be that good of a four. I think you're right about the Mitchell part of it. Where.
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Bill Simmons
I don't know. Do you love the Allen part?
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Ryan Rosillo
I mean, he sucks now. How long's the list?
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Bill Simmons
Do you love them, though?
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Ryan Rosillo
I think every team would like Jared Allen.
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Bill Simmons
Yeah. I don't know. I watched them toe to toe against Indiana, and I. I just. It's not like I'm like, whoa, there's so much talent. It's not like the Celtics, Knicks series where you're like, what's going on? The Celtics have a better team than the Knicks. How is this happening? I don't know if I feel that way when I'm watching Cavs, Pacers.
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Ryan Rosillo
I don't know how you could feel any other way after what we just sat through for two hours. So, you know, I didn't expect you to start sitting here and be like, you know who's awesome is Jared Allen. I. I just think that there was, like, 80 season games where this team was historically really good now. And maybe that's another part of this conversation. Home road, do we care? Doesn't matter anymore.
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Bill Simmons
2020 care about regular season at all.
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Ryan Rosillo
Don't matter anymore. Your net rating doesn't matter anymore. Like, all of these things now, are we just going to decide that the things we've always believed in, none of it matters? Because, I mean, Cleveland is checking a lot of boxes, being down 3:1 here.
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Bill Simmons
It's the part that doesn't make sense to me. It was why I like them as a possible Finals team because I felt like they had all the things I was looking for, except for I wasn't positive who the fifth guy is. But I like Stre. It's like, all right, if he's your fifth guy and he.
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Ryan Rosillo
But at least you had a.
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Bill Simmons
Make some big shots in the corner. I feel like he could maybe do that.
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Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. There was three guys that you could throw into that conversation of, like, who would be. Now, granted, you probably wouldn't play Jerome with Garland and Mitchell, but, you know, Merrill's played a lot. Hunter is supposed to be better than this. You know, even Dean Wade, who gets attacked defensively all the time because it's like, oh, I got him. And then he holds up really well. There's. There's a lot of little pieces there that even if you're saying, like, hey, I don't know who the fifth guy is, a lot of teams would take all of those options. But this is.
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Bill Simmons
Look at the Celtics.
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Ryan Rosillo
Go ahead.
- [22:39]
Bill Simmons
It's Pritchard. And then who are my other four?
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Ryan Rosillo
What are you talking about?
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Bill Simmons
Oh, joking. Just trying to figure out my five. I start with Pritchard.
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Ryan Rosillo
Oh, I see.
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Bill Simmons
What you probably. Tatum, second.
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Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. Are you sure?
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Bill Simmons
Pritchard. Are you ready for Pritchard vs. TJ McConnell? In the ESPN commercial, it's 30 shots.
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Ryan Rosillo
For Pritchard in a playoff game.
- [23:06]
Bill Simmons
Look, man, that's like one, two every three minutes.
- [23:10]
Ryan Rosillo
I just can't believe they would come out that bad. Like, normally, even if you're going to lose this game, like, get it to 12, get it to 12 a little later. You know, that's usually how these games work.
- [23:23]
Bill Simmons
Right. Well, all right, so like you mentioned, I think later in the pod, you mentioned the 64 win Suns team that just got waxed. We had those Hawks teams in the mid 2010s. Like, we've seen successful teams crater at the wrong time in the playoffs. And every time it's confusing. The bigger question to me is after it happens, is there a road back? Because the only time I could think of a road back where the road actually came back was that spurs, the Ray Allen shot. And then they came back and they even think like, oh, man, that's it. They're never coming back from that. And then they came back the next year, the Celtics in 23, Miami losing the first three, where it's like, that's it. Blow this thing up. This is a wrap. Then they came back and they won the next three. It's like, all right, what is up? Tatum got hurt in Game 7. Maybe we just need to trade Marcus Smart and Grant Williams and you know, fix around the edges. But normally when it goes bad like this and you really take a shit in a series, it usually doesn't come back. That's usually we look back and be like, ah, when they start making like a big trade, two years later we're like, ah, we should have known. Because that series in 25, when that pacers game, like, we should have known that was when we knew that that nucleus wasn't going to work. Do you see how it goes?
- [24:51]
Ryan Rosillo
A couple things. One, that Hawks team that won 60 games in 14 and 15 artificially inflated 60. I just don't think they were that good.
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Bill Simmons
Yeah, well, they were compared to when you look at the net rating points per possession, all that shit. They were not at the level of what this Cavs team was. But you know, didn't they win like 64 games one of those years though? Or 62?
- [25:17]
Ryan Rosillo
I think it's just 60. That one year when they made it to the Eastern Conference finals and they got swept.
- [25:23]
Bill Simmons
But doing a seven part documentary about them, I got to figure it out.
- [25:26]
Ryan Rosillo
No, that's going to be exciting. Let me know when you want to do the Kevin Willis.
- [25:32]
Bill Simmons
We got to lock down Joe Johnson still trying to get an interview with him.
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Ryan Rosillo
So, you know when that Hawks team comes up short, you're also going up against LeBron.
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Bill Simmons
Yep. So did you ever go on the radio and say, I think they could upset LeBron or were you always like, I've never taken this seriously ever at any point?
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Ryan Rosillo
No. I remember that team annoyed me because they wanted like five guys in the All Star team because they were in first place. Yeah, like, yeah, that's probably not a great way of doing the All Star roster. Five may be an exaggeration. Maybe it was four. But then if you look at the Celtics part of it, I mean, that's why when we're sitting here like, this is going to be ugly for Cleveland, like I said, like, it's going to be really ugly going, okay, this. It goes from okay, there's new coach, he figured some things out, they're even better now, coach of the year type of stuff. And then no one's going to care. No one's going to care about any of it because now they're going to say that this group just is incredibly flawed.
- [26:31]
Bill Simmons
Well, and then you have this squandered opportunity of whether the Celtics come out of this Round two series or not. Either way it's going to be a 6 or 7 gamer with some attrition and then Cleveland would add the home court in that one. And Boston's a team they've always played well against, and Mitchell's always done well against the Celtics. Now you're like, well, we blew. Like, what if the Knicks end up beating the Celtics? I'm like, we could fucking play the Knicks in round three.
- [26:58]
Ryan Rosillo
But, you know, the thing is, is after this series and the way this has looked, they shouldn't be saying that about anybody.
- [27:03]
Bill Simmons
True. How healthy do you think Garland is? Give me a percent.
- [27:08]
Ryan Rosillo
Healthy enough to be out there. I mean, he's made some plays. Falling down twice, not being touched, probably isn't a great time. He fell down and got a foul call in today's game where I'm like, he just fell down. And then he had a play in game three where he, like, lost the ball. He just tried to cut forward and then. Then fell down again. So, you know, I don't know if that's in the. The flow of the game or whatever, but I. I thought at least game three, it's like, okay, you know, he's out there. I, you know, I don't think maybe he's marginalized a little bit, but I don't. You know what? I don't see multiple moments where I'm like, oh, my God, this guy shot. I can't believe he's out on the floor. Or you didn't look.
- [27:47]
Bill Simmons
This didn't was. I wouldn't say he was skipping around 100%, but he wasn't bad. He wasn't compromised. Certainly was. It didn't really affect either way. I thought it was more. The Pacers were just extraordinary and also really seemed to think they can be Cleveland. That was another lesson in this game. They were like, we're fucking beating these guys today. This is happening.
- [28:10]
Ryan Rosillo
We're beating these guys.
- [28:12]
Bill Simmons
And I don't know, this might be.
- [28:16]
Ryan Rosillo
The times we've argued about it in the past, but even with the health luck that they had against the opponents during the playoffs last year, just getting to the Eastern Conference finals and probably feeling like you were a lot closer with Boston than the series played out, I mean, getting swept kind of separates the men from the boys in those closing moments. You're like, okay, you're not actually at this level despite running around for two. Two hours. But maybe that's all they needed. And the strong clothes and a guy like Halliburton who does not care, which is why I think so many players despise him. But you need somebody like that. You need somebody who thinks, especially when you have that many times with the ball and everything that you're controlling there. You have to think you're better than everybody else. And he carries himself that way. And look, I mean, depending on where he is. I think I voted them all NBA. I know it kind of came down to, like, the last few names. There's like three for one spot or maybe four names for two spots. And I know some people are probably split, so I don't know if he's going to make third team all NBA, but I voted for him. I'm pretty sure I did. I kind of forget some of this stuff.
- [29:17]
Bill Simmons
You did. I didn't.
- [29:18]
Ryan Rosillo
Okay. I didn't mean to do it to you that way. That's not.
- [29:23]
Bill Simmons
I stand by that. It was a regular season vote. I voted for Big Jim Harden over him.
- [29:29]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, it's a regular season vote.
- [29:30]
Bill Simmons
Do I feel great about it? Not especially, no. I don't feel awesome. Not gonna high five myself with Bear after.
- [29:38]
Ryan Rosillo
Should they give us. Should the NBA, like, hit us up a week or two into the playoffs and be like, anything you want to tweak.
- [29:44]
Bill Simmons
I know they should give you one mulligan.
- [29:47]
Ryan Rosillo
I swear to God, every time, like, somebody. It becomes public, and then it's like, oh, this guy did this. And sometimes I think it's because the person just does it. And then there's just that moment you're like, well, somebody left Franz off of all NBA first and second. And then I'm like, immediately going back to Charlie, check my ballot.
- [30:02]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [30:02]
Ryan Rosillo
Because you're just horrified that you're going to make some mistake. But I don't think the NBA can go over our ballots and go, are you sure about that, dude? Although I'd love it.
- [30:10]
Bill Simmons
What's the weirdest possible finals we can have that actually might happen now? Is it Indiana and Minnesota, Golden State in Minnesota, or.
- [30:20]
Ryan Rosillo
Excuse me. Well, what's the weirdest possible. Well, I, you know, weirdest possible.
- [30:23]
Bill Simmons
That could actually happen.
- [30:25]
Ryan Rosillo
Like, that could actually happen. Yeah.
- [30:27]
Bill Simmons
Indiana. Minnesota is a finals that could actually happen.
- [30:30]
Ryan Rosillo
Wouldn't Denver Pacers be weirder?
- [30:34]
Bill Simmons
I mean, the ABA part would be weirder, but Jokic being in the Finals. I'm just trying to picture, like, a finals that people in our life who don't really follow basketball, like my mom, like, who's in the finals this year? And I'm like, it's Indiana against Minnesota. And, like, what? Or my wife. That's one of those. Yeah. Minnesota has this guy, Anthony Edwards. He was in an Adam Sandler movie. And Indiana just has a Bunch of guys you've never heard of, but they're really fun to play or fun to watch. And that's going to be our finals.
- [31:03]
Ryan Rosillo
I would, I would be defending. We would be defending ourselves against the ratings argument that would come out then that probably wouldn't be a great time for some of the current back and forth.
- [31:17]
Bill Simmons
Pacers T. Wolves.
- [31:19]
Ryan Rosillo
Okay. They shouldn't have. Shouldn't have shot your butt.
- [31:23]
Bill Simmons
Shot your butt a little early.
- [31:25]
Ryan Rosillo
You see some of the players tweets. It's all connected by the way.
- [31:28]
Bill Simmons
You know, it'd be a really good finals. Indiana, Minnesota. I would really enjoy those games. Good battle.
- [31:36]
Ryan Rosillo
I guess I don't look at like Minnesota as surprising, but they're another team, you know, Western Conference finals, same as the Pacers. Eastern Conference finals. I felt like Minnesota had a much better chance in that series than the Pacers did last year. Maybe. I don't know. This sounds stupid, but were we just due? I mean we're not even there yet. We're not even through the second round.
- [31:55]
Bill Simmons
So like due for just like a completely wacko.
- [31:58]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. Are we just due for one of these instead of every year going, okay, it's this team versus that team. All right, well, they have the one of the five best players in the world and they have two of the 10 best players in the world and that's the way the sport works.
- [32:12]
Bill Simmons
I have the conference odds from right before round one and Indiana I thought was a great bet and I actually had that in my picks. Indiana was 28 to 1 to win the east, which I thought those are like just great odds. I don't not saying it's going to happen. It's just 28 to 1 playing Milwaukee in round one. It's just good odds. Minnesota was 20 to 1 to win the West. Right. And if you looked at that one, kind of the same thing where you go, all right, well, if they get through round one, they're playing the winner of Houston Golden State in round two. They could potentially win that. And then who knows? They, they love playing okc. But anyway, 28 to 1 versus 20 to 1 would be a very, very high parlay if you did that one on Fanduel.
- [32:58]
Ryan Rosillo
Denver was cut at 1521 by the way.
- [33:01]
Bill Simmons
Did they really?
- [33:02]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. So maybe some momentum.
- [33:05]
Bill Simmons
Cleveland was plus 185 to win the conference and the Celtics were minus 145 and the Knicks were 12 to 1. Some tough feet minutes.
- [33:16]
Ryan Rosillo
All right.
- [33:17]
Bill Simmons
And I'm way more nervous about the Celtic game now since we did the Pod since, which hasn't even been on this. The people listening. We haven't even gotten to that yet. It's about 40 minutes from now. But I started thinking about this Indiana game. Made me now nervous that this just. You always think, you know what, it's going to happen again. It's like game four. I remember, oh, it's going to be slug fest. Everyone's going to show up. Then I watch this, I'm like, all right, now I'm nervous again. I don't know what to expect anymore.
- [33:45]
Ryan Rosillo
I, I, I mean, it's just, Is it the most impressive win of any game in the playoffs so far? Right.
- [33:52]
Bill Simmons
Well, mainly because it feels like they kind of broke the Cavs. I think that was the more impressive part.
- [33:57]
Ryan Rosillo
It broke me a little bit.
- [33:58]
Bill Simmons
Whoa. It's like one of those football games where you think The Cowboys lose 47 to 17 in round one. You're like, oh, my God, you didn't just lose. Like, I don't even know what you should do this summer now. All right, before we go to break, did you see the movie Nanas on Netflix?
- [34:15]
Ryan Rosillo
Not yet. Vince Vaughn, Joe Manganiello. Yeah. Excited.
- [34:20]
Bill Simmons
Susan Sarandon, age 78, looks great.
- [34:23]
Ryan Rosillo
You've always liked her.
- [34:25]
Bill Simmons
Looks great. Talia Shire, Lorraine Bracco, nice. Brenda Vaccaro. I had no idea. My wife and daughter just wanted to watch it on Friday night. I had no idea. I was getting Dr. Melfi. I was getting Adrian Balboa. I was getting, I don't know, was she Thelma or Louise? Susan Saranen.
- [34:48]
Ryan Rosillo
I haven't seen it yet.
- [34:50]
Bill Simmons
One of those. I'm just in Thelma and Louise. I can't remember which one she was, but yeah, Interesting movie. Made me think the stunt casting. It still works. I really liked it. Thumbs up. Nona's thumbs up. Thumbs up. Two thumbs up.
- [35:09]
Ryan Rosillo
All right. I'll have to check it out. Yeah, I just saw it because it just came out. Right?
- [35:14]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Staten Island Italian restaurant movie. I decided I like all food movies too. Trying to think of one that I even like. Burnt with Bradley Cooper. I love Chef with Jon Favreau.
- [35:29]
Ryan Rosillo
The movie.
- [35:30]
Bill Simmons
Big night, Hot dog. The movie was not a food movie. It was a ski movie. Oh, yeah. I like food movies.
- [35:39]
Ryan Rosillo
Chef. You said you like Chef a lot.
- [35:41]
Bill Simmons
I like Chef.
- [35:41]
Ryan Rosillo
Did you like the bear a lot? You like the bear a lot, right?
- [35:44]
Bill Simmons
Enjoy the bear. Bear's coming back mid mid June. Dumping them all at once.
- [35:50]
Ryan Rosillo
A lot of overhead film.
- [35:52]
Bill Simmons
Two seasons at once, apparently. We're going to take a break. Did you get Any feedback for your Star wars cameo in the Star wars rewatchables?
- [36:03]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I did. I got a little feedback on that.
- [36:06]
Bill Simmons
And I had somebody say to me, you definitely rigged that with Priscilla. Everybody thinks that he was too ready for it. I was like, I promise you there was no rigging. We have no idea if he's ever gonna pick up the phone. And I never tell him I'm calling or what the movie is.
- [36:20]
Ryan Rosillo
You've never told me. I even missed the Blues Brothers one. And I was upset because I was like, I used to love that movie when I was a kid. The corn of the Cob line. To this day, my dad and I will throw that one at each other every now and then. And I called back and you were like, you missed your window. So it's a very rigid system. And after the blue chips won and now this one, people are accusing me of. Of having all this prepared, which, you know, look, I'm probably due for a.
- [36:46]
Bill Simmons
Dud one where you're just saying, ah.
- [36:50]
Ryan Rosillo
And then I stay on.
- [36:50]
Bill Simmons
Seen it.
- [36:51]
Ryan Rosillo
Once you start ad libbing, I just start getting. I getting stuff wrong, like Kwe's injury. So I'll just be like, yeah, I don't know. Endor thing and the Ewoks. You're like, dude, that's the third one. Like, but it's just in the vans in the back going, it's a 6:1.
- [37:08]
Bill Simmons
All right, we're going to take a break, come back and talk rest of the playoffs. This episode is brought to you by Degree original Cool Rush deodorant. Remember last year people got really mad when Degree changed their Cool Rush formula. One dude even started a petition. What was up with that guy? Well, guess what? ° listened. They admitted they messed up. They're bringing back the original Cool Rush scent. And thank God. You've got to love when a brand can own its mistakes. And it's in Walmart, Target and other stores right now for under $4. Grab some, find out why it's been the number one men's antiperspirant for the last decade. By the way, you should put that on especially. We're about to hit the summer. It's getting sweaty in the summers. The original Degree Cool Rush is back and it smells like victory for all of us. Happy Mother's Day out there. To all the mothers who are not watching right now, I think it's the hardcore sports fans. I have my mother in law and my mother in my house right now who don't understand why I had to record a podcast with my guy, Ryan Rosillo. But listen, OKC, Denver, Game 4, there was a lot of things going on that game moved to a whole other level of storylines, things I was just really intrigued by things I wanted to find out, answers I needed and I'll start here. Rossillo. Really hard for Denver to score against a team as incredible defensively as okc. And I don't know how they're going to win two more of these. What OKC was doing defensively, especially in the fourth quarter, I thought was pretty bonkers. It's pretty, pretty, pretty high level. And it made up for all their weird offensive stuff. It's just when they want to get stops, it just feels like it's like a miracle when you're scoring against them. So that was my biggest takeaway. What was yours?
- [39:02]
Ryan Rosillo
That I cannot believe. I didn't have every dollar in my account assigned to the under in this.
- [39:11]
Bill Simmons
What was it, 179.
- [39:13]
Ryan Rosillo
It was 27 was the number. And by the way, that Aaron Gordon three. It was OKC minus six at 90. What?
- [39:19]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [39:20]
Ryan Rosillo
So I'm sitting there and you and I had talked after game three. I've had anxiety. I don't even care who wins, right? I've had anxiety watching both of these games. Like, I've, I've never really quite felt like this because they're such grinds and game three was just a grind. And of course, because of what we do, you're watching the game constantly thinking about all the different things. Like at one point when OKC was down, I'm wondering if you're going to start sitting here saying, is there an Usman Jang Jaylen Brown match at some point point or something like, you know, who knows where this is going to go? Because if OKC's down 3:1, like we start talking about all the different storylines, which I still want to get to, but knowing that they had to play that game and then play this one less than 48 hours later. And in Denver, I just kept thinking about legs and who would have energy. And it's the worst scoring first quarter we'd had in the playoffs. Like a tide for the worst ever combined. I mean, it just, it's an absolute grind. And Denver, it was worse to watch.
- [40:14]
Bill Simmons
Than the season score, which was an awful score. The actual shots and the way people were missing and how far off everything was. It was like eight points felt like a miracle. I was like surprised. Denver had eight points.
- [40:28]
Ryan Rosillo
It was so bad. But it made sense. It made sense. And then when they talked to Chet Even him, this young guy, great athlete. And I thought, I know the sideline stuff gets a lot of grief and maybe we're guilty of it at times too, but I thought there was a lot of really good sideline stuff. And Chet was incredibly honest being like, you know, 48 hours, maybe even said 36 hours later. And so the start of this game was what was.
- [40:52]
Bill Simmons
He said. He said, this is basically a back to back. And this is what. When we were talking on Friday, we were like, I mean, that game Friday was. Was just immense. And we were like, God damn, they have to play Sunday afternoon after that, because it felt like two playoff games on Friday.
- [41:10]
Ryan Rosillo
And, and that's what I do love about this, because we closed the season with Denver, you know, being the worst offensive team going into the playoffs. A change over their coach. You're curious about what the rotation would be. Remember when Pickett closed against Sacramento in the regular season, like, okay, this is what Adelman's going to do. And you're like, or he's not going to do any of that stuff, but so you're left with. Cause there's, there's so much that I want to get to here, but you're left with just a. I don't know if it's a sinking feeling, overwhelming feeling that Denver can't get two more against the.
- [41:38]
Bill Simmons
Well, here's what we found out. I mean, we could cover each team. What we found out with Denver is they're down to six guys and one of them was Westbrook, who could not make a shot today. Right. And was basically they. They weren't even guarding him. Pick, Strother and Watson were the two that played. The Watson minutes will not be released as a 4K HD DVD. I don't think anytime soon. Jokic looked just like they were just beating him with a two by four. And they were doing exactly what they should be doing against him. They're trying to wear him down. It was so hard for them to get good shots that when they got a good shot, there was that shot Murray made in the fourth quarter when he went to his left, did a hop step and got like an open 15 footer and it was like, wow, they got space on a jump shot. Like, it was like celebration. The thing that was crazy to me about OKC in the fourth quarter is Dort wasn't out there for like the last five or six minutes. Who I voted for defensive player of the year. And they're playing defense like that and they don't even have him out there. You Know, but when you think like they just come in waves with I thought Wallace was great today. Dort Caruso, the Hartenstein and homegrown combo, just ridiculous. On Jokic, you think he goes from, he goes from last year, the Gobert Towns, Nas just like some twosome of that the entire series to whatever's happening. This one, it's just, it's a lot, man. I, I, the my big takeaway was like, I think, okay, is OKC is better defensively than anyone else is at anything. Would be how I would say it that it's like on when we talk about football and we're like so and so's defense is the best thing anyone's got going right now. And it feels like that way with okc.
- [43:18]
Ryan Rosillo
There's some parallels here with and we'll see what happens with game forward New York and Boston. But when you think about Boston the regular season against the Knicks, you see those first two games go the way they go. And then when it looks right for Bobby Boston, you just go, okay. This feels like the significant gap that would lead you to pick Boston against New York in a playoff series. And before we had the final. So these are before the final numbers from today's game. But when they ran through the regular season in playoff results between Denver and OKC, OKC in the wins is like plus 27 and a half better and Denver in their wins are plus six and a half better. But I'm glad you brought up Caruso because, you know, the overtime thing and the clutch scoring in this series for OKC has been a mess up until today where Denver, I think had when they put up the clutch number, it was like 4:53 left to go and they had five points up until the Gordon free throw because he went one or two and then he hit the three off of the violation. So you know those points, like, yeah, technically the account is clutch points as, as they all do. But it was pretty clear, like Denver just wasn't going to get anything offensively. But Caruso, like I kept wondering and I think Dagnolt was looking for this was who's going to give me energy, who is going to fight. And Caruso had an incredible offensive rebound, kept the play alive. They get to the bonus. He had the strip on Murray there was just constantly getting in there, tipping and active. And I think that's part of the decision of everybody's dead in game three. So he starts overtime with Chet on the bench. And I'm with you. I love the Hartenstein Chet combo for Jokic because it's just one is always going to be on you and the other one is always going to be lurking, even if Aaron Gordon is going to be hitting threes. So I understand what Dagnall's kind of like trying to figure out, you know, because he does have all of these options, which made me like the Thunder so much. But sometimes that can almost get in your own way. And so it's funny the thing that he probably felt like with Caruso's energy and defense, he was going to try to get away with it. And then OKC falls apart. And over time, Denver's just running away. They could they end up going up in the series. Like, how is this happening? And yet I think the same thing that he was hoping would happen in overtime actually happened. I thought Caruso the star of the fourth quarter. Porter. It's hard to say he's the story of the game because there's all these different things we can point to. But his effort level when you could tell like this is the youngest team going on this kind of title run. If OKC were to pull this kind of thing off and you're thinking don't their legs despite Denver, you know, having this Bane approach. Like we grew up in the darkness. Like this is what we're all about. Like you're going to be running around Mile house. Yeah. But you know, you think we're going to be uncomfortable at home with our resume and what this group has done. Even though I still think them blowing the lead to Minnesota is one of the most surprising results in playoff history. I think Caruso was that guy for the Thunder because even a really young team, like, I still think these teams were just dead today considering what they went through on Friday night.
- [46:00]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. I thought it's weird. You almost have to work backwards because they have six guys who could belong out in crunch time. Right. And Caruso was kind of the odd man out in the fourth quarter of game three. Then they're trying to. You would almost think after, especially after watching the game today, you could talk me into Dort replacing Jalen Williams. And Jalen Williams, if he's going to be what he was offensively in this game, I voted for him. 13 more NBA, by the way. But there's a version of them where they just go the two bigs, sga, Dort and Caruso, and that's it. And they just try to lay the defense down as much as they can. I those are good problems to have. But the big thing that happened today was, you know, SGA was okay. I think he had three shots. It was the fact that Denver just couldn't score. I think that was the most shocking piece to me. They always figure out how to get shots. I didn't like the shots they were getting. We always talk about that with Denver. Like, I just like the shots. I like the decisions. I trust the process.
- [46:59]
Ryan Rosillo
When the two. When the two man game with Murray and Jokic, which everybody knows is coming up, but all the variations of it, like in game three, it's. It's just funny because you'll watch and go, how come you're not doing this the entire time? Well, you can't do it against any NBA team, let alone the Thunder, every single time. But when they. When those two guys get into a rhythm and they're figuring out the switches and they're figuring out the help, and then Murray uses one screen and then he uses the second screen. On Yoko, she had a three at the top of the key. I mean, this is the same thing that we've seen here for years, but when it's working, even at times, again against a team with a defensive profile like Oklahoma City, you almost feel helpless.
- [47:33]
Bill Simmons
Well, you think like game six, game seven against the Clipper series, right? Those were, I think, one day off between those. Then went right into this series. They had a really tough game one, get killed in game two, game three, Friday night. And this one, they. I don't know if some of it is fatigue with Jokic from the burden that he has, but I think what was interesting about what Oak, and I don't even know how to define this, they sped him up by like fifth of a second with like his touch. Maybe a fourth of the second, maybe a sixth of a second.
- [48:07]
Ryan Rosillo
Okay.
- [48:07]
Bill Simmons
His touch around the rim, which is usually one of the things that's so crazy when you watch him, you're like, how does he make these all the time? How does he make these spinning 8 footers? How does he make these ones where he's going toward the basket and it. How does the ball just always bounce around the rim and go in for him? What is. What does he do that? And they f. They somehow fucked that up. And now when he's sitting, it's like hard back of the rim, or it's short or it's like, you know, or sometimes it's just off the backboard. But they. They did something to him. And I'm really interested to see if he can solve it because I think he's the best offensive player I've seen since early 2010s LeBron at least, and they've done something to him that they've sped him up and fucked him up. And now when he takes open threes, they don't seem like they're going to go in, which is where he was in the Minnesota series when. When that went sideways, too. The difference here is that when you have a six man team and a couple of those guys are not guys who can create their own shot really under any circumstance, if he's not going to shoot a little bit better, I just don't see how they get to 100 points for solo like that. Under being 227 was nuts. We should have bet the house on that one.
- [49:16]
Ryan Rosillo
I can't believe we talked about it Friday night.
- [49:18]
Bill Simmons
I know.
- [49:19]
Ryan Rosillo
I. It's. It's like a lingering anger I'm having with myself. I. One quick thing, though. On Jalen Williams, I would push back a little bit on how flexible you would be about subbing out somebody like that, because he still needs, he still needs to be your number two. And in game three, it gets lost. He was incredible and he was incredible offensively. Closing it was. There was a silver lining to it of, you know, if this team's going to win a title, I mean, he needs to be a lot more than he was last year. Even with all the, you know, the crazy thing too is about okc when they get stuff kind of going side to side and Denver's in that zone and they're loaded up to one side and there's all these kickouts to the other side. These guys are not making these shots nearly enough and they're all really good looks. So if you're on that OKC staff, you know, I've. Look, I've thought about all sorts of things and I don't know how ridiculous you were getting thinking about like, okay, what's the SGA con?
- [50:11]
Bill Simmons
I just said maybe they, maybe they bench Jalen Williams down the stretch. It was pretty ridiculous. I voted for him. 13 ball. BA.
- [50:18]
Ryan Rosillo
I think that it is ridiculous because.
- [50:19]
Bill Simmons
But the re. Here's why I said that though, because I thought this was an absolute, absolute must win. We must win. Gets turned around.
- [50:26]
Ryan Rosillo
Too much player. He has to be out there.
- [50:28]
Bill Simmons
But I, but I'm saying if I'm in the fourth quarter of this game four and I know I have to win at some point with six minutes left, I'm like, I don't care whose feelings I hurt. I'm trying to, I need to try to win this game now. And I have six options, and I'm just going to go. So anyway, I wouldn't have been surprised if they did it, but that's how. That's how important I thought this game was to them, because especially as a younger team, you know, you go down 3:1 in the series, you can't finish these games. These 50, 50 games where you. You've already lost two in the series, right? Denver's 4 and O in these. And I just felt. I felt like OKC had to have this. I didn't feel like Denver had to have this. I felt like OKC did.
- [51:08]
Ryan Rosillo
I'm not with you on benching Jalen Williams because he's your second best player. He had the huge game three. I mean, you could even talk about, like, what you're doing to him if you want to play that game.
- [51:18]
Bill Simmons
It's too risky. I'm with you. I'm just. I went through the thought process. It's too risky long term with it, but.
- [51:23]
Ryan Rosillo
And you're also removing.
- [51:24]
Bill Simmons
Nothing was working for them, though.
- [51:26]
Ryan Rosillo
Your second best on ball guy, you know, as good as Dort is, you're. You're really just giving him spot ups. Carusa's got more drive in him, but again, a lot of his looks are just open looks. You know, Wiggins was out there. Joe had a brick in the first half. You're like, that is. Your shot is wide open. You know, Chet looked a little hesitant to shoot on a couple of those catches. So I think they ran a really good thing once they get SGA to collapse, get the defense to collapse around sga. Like, one time he got caught, got tied up, and I'm like, what the hell is going on? And then another time, he kind of like was ready for it. And they swing it and they had a Caruso 3 off that. They had Jalen Williams drive on it. But granted, he only ended up with 10 points. I think we should stay on the Jokic thing, though, because. Yeah, you're right. And it's funny because we were having this MVP off series and all the arguments about these two guys, and I think sometimes we build them both in a Superman. We can't believe they're missing any of these shots. But since game one, Jokic is missing too many shots for him. But every time you look at some of these possessions, at game three, there was a possession, about six minutes to go in that game, and it was the eighth turnover for Jokic, and he had Chet and SGA right on him underneath the rim. And the other three players all had one foot in the paint and they don't care. I mean, this reminds me again of that Lakers regular season game where they won at Denver and they were like, look how prepped up they are. Look how much help is coming to Yokich, and look how little they care about all this outside shooting. Like, Westbrook's had some really nice energy moments, and to your point, he's not afraid, which is really important this time of year, but he's not making enough of these shots, and he's taking a lot of them on top of everything else. So you'll see times where his defender doesn't even care where Westbrook is. And there may be somebody. Yeah. And then there's somebody else on the other side. Like, they had one play where Watson and Russ were in the same corner and no one cared. Like, their spacing next to each other was so terrible. So when you look at these Jokic possessions, I think they're speeding him up because he knows, he's like, all right, these guys are swarming on me. I have no time, and I'm dealing with double bigs, and I have all this length. Yeah, it'd be nice if he made some more shots. It'd be nice if he stopped missing some of these huge free throws that we even saw in the Clip Clipper series. But just there's stills where I'll laugh going, look at what is happening as soon as Jokic stops his dribble and he's in the paint. And there's just, you know, whether it's Porter Jr. Who was the difference in game three, there's still, like, just a lack of respect for any of those guys.
- [53:48]
Bill Simmons
Porter was. Yeah, 0 for 5 from 3 today. Watson was over 2. Westbrook's air ball was the biggest one in the game. And then from on the OKC side, Dort was 2 for 10, HomeGrid 0 for 3. Williams was 0 for 5. Jalen Williams. Jalen Williams was 2 for 13 in that game.
- [54:07]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, pretty rough.
- [54:09]
Bill Simmons
And then Isaiah Joe came in to give them some heat, check threes and went over three. But the Jokic thing, he spins. He spins around. There's another guy waiting for him when he does the thing where he tries to back down and he backs down, and he can either throw it out or spin in. They're sending these guys to his blind side like little. Like rocket ships. So now he's worried about those guys, too, so he can't do it the same way. And it's all goes to what you said. It's like watching a football team. It's like when, when the Ravens had the Derek Henry year when teams would load, they just do eight man fronts and he would still run through them. And then at some point in the playoffs, teams were like, how about an 11 man front? Are you going to run through that? How about we put everybody up on the line? Can you run through this? That's kind of what they were doing. I thought to Jokic, but I still listen. We both watched a ton of Jokic. Like his touch has not been great around the. The stuff that he's made all year, he's not making. And there's some wide open threes and it's just this is not the best version of him and I don't want to make excuses for him because I think he could play better. And I think he looked really frustrated down the stretch where he was doing the sinking shoulders. I can't believe I missed that. He just is a little discombobulated. So kudos to them. Cause they figured out how to disrupt one of the best offensive players we've ever seen.
- [55:28]
Ryan Rosillo
And it's almost like, you know, handing the ball off a few times. Even if you don't think the reward is there as you have to get him into those switches, you have to be attacking him in that first half. I mean, look, he always looks tired. He's probably far more conditioned than most people because he's in Colorado year round. So, you know, even though he looks exhausted 30 seconds into every single game, the end of the game, it just doesn't seem that it wears on him as much. So I think it's both things. I mean, you'd be denying the level of detail here on trying to make sure there's like a third guy there all the time. I mean, Jay Billis called it like a line defense. It felt like to your Derek Henry point, like a goal line defense. On that one play that I was looking at, yeah, I thought they did a great job on the broadcast and I really loved a lot of like useful graphics. And hey, here's what's the clutch trends. There was just a lot of good stuff which I think doesn't ever get. We just complain too much and then we never compliment enough. So here we are, a couple positive guys.
- [56:24]
Bill Simmons
Three pointers, by the way. 1041 for OKC, 11 for 45 for Denver.
- [56:30]
Ryan Rosillo
But to Yoko, I don't think he can make some more of those.
- [56:32]
Bill Simmons
Okay, he could. No, I don't think Denver's done in the series by any means. I think this would have been way more dangerous for OKC as a young team where young guys aren't playing well. And now you're down 3:1, and now it turns into 48 hours of everybody just dissecting them, which can go either way. Sometimes it can raise the team's level, sometimes it can tighten the sphincters. But a lot of guys, like, if.
- [56:55]
Ryan Rosillo
OKC is down 3:1 and you're doing a pod, like, what do you allow yourself to do?
- [57:00]
Bill Simmons
I think I lead with the Denver piece of it. I just think it's so incredible that they won two of those first three games. Like, they stole game one, just an outright theft. And then game three, which I think you and I both loved. Denver's just. You know, that was just the. We used to be the champs, and we've been in a few of these rodeos, and we kind of know what we're doing was one of those games. The physicality of it was ridiculous. It was an awesome game. Like, that was a hard Friday, was a get, was a Hardwood Classics NBA TV showing it in August, and I'll probably end up watching the fourth quarter in the ot. This game will never be seen again. Nobody will ever watch this game. And sga, I think that they've. They've disrupted him in all these different ways, much like OKC has disrupted Jokic like that. This is the best I've ever seen a team defend his drives. They're ready for his herky jerky stuff. They never give up on him because he loves doing that hockey move where he kind of drives through and he brings it back out, but then he cuts back in. They're always ready for that. So when you think, like, they've only had six guys and one of them has this giant bandage on his shoulder, and it's unclear how hurt he is, like, it's pretty impressive, but, you know, ultimately your season comes down to stuff like, Russell Westbrook's going to be wide open in the. In the corner, and he's going to Airball 3 that you needed because you had to have Russell Westbrook out there as good as he's been as a bench guy. But that's kind of the difference. When you get to this level, it's a couple plays.
- [58:34]
Ryan Rosillo
Look, I do think there are some real positives with Westbrook's minutes just for his comfort level. You know, there. There can be moments. Look, when they got down huge in game two, it may not have mattered, but it felt like he was like, all right, I can fix this maybe, maybe it's a compliment that he thinks that he can. But I mean, if you just run through the totals here now, I mean, we're talking about somebody who's at 23% and he's taking a lot of threes because they're there for him. By the way, three point shooting combined in the first half, 3, 13.6% worst percentage in a half in a playoff game since 1998. The SGA stuff, had they lost. Right. If they're down 3:1, because I think it's worth maybe doing some of this stuff now, then it becomes a little bit of like, hey, this is what those other players remember Wind Horse was sharing this and then we both talked about it was like, players do not fear this OKC team.
- [59:30]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [59:30]
Ryan Rosillo
And then what were some of, like the default defensive things that other teams are doing? We saw Minnesota do it. One of those awesome regular season games against them. It's like, like, look, we're just going to force the ball out of his hands. We're going to trap him. And we don't trust enough of these other guys because it's this SGA thing at the top. And if we can clog that up, then guys that aren't as comfortable taking some of these shots in the playoffs, it's going to lead to success. You know, there was a real, like, moment there where you're like, would you allow yourself to have some of these conversations about is SGA's regular season approach too much like some of these other guys that have the ball in their hands the entire time and then it doesn't translate necessarily to the playoffs? I think in the past, sometimes with some of the guys we've talked about, it's totally fair. With SGA, it felt a little unfair if they had been down 3:1, but I think those things would have happened. You know, I looked at the regular season drives per game. It's 20.6 going into the night, 19 drives per game. I think the Memphis numbers are sort of weird, but he's still taking because it feels like, is he taking as many shots? Is he getting to the free throw line as much?
- [60:30]
Bill Simmons
There's one difference. Playoff officiating versus regular season officiating. These games are just more physical and there's been times when watching them during the season, he would get calls that I don't think he's getting the same calls. And by the way, I don't think Jokic is either. I just think it's the playoffs and everything's physical, everything's Physical from the first quarter on and it's. You're just not going to get away with as much. So the stuff that he used to get away with in the paint and it would get to the line, it doesn't feel like it's happening the same way anymore.
- [61:01]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, it definitely shows up on a few plays, but the overall numbers are right in line with where he is in the regular season. I was surprised. Is he not driving as much because he's getting cut off more? No, that's the same. Are the touches per game the same? Yes, they are. Now, granted, the Memphis series maybe takes away from some of that stuff. Free throw attempts per game. I mean, he's in this series now taking nine free throw attempts per game. After today. He took 12 the regular season. He took nine free throw attempts per game. So I'm with you that there's probably a few moments where he's like, man, I get that call in February.
- [61:36]
Bill Simmons
I mean, it is more Fun in an OT game on Friday. Needed 25 today, but some of those were coming at the end. It just doesn't seem like it's as easy. But he's also going against a team that certainly we did not see this kind of defense from Denver during the season. That's been the other story here. This team fired their coach with a week to go in the season. Basically, their effort was spotty back and forth and to watch them just turn into the team like, oh, hypothetically, they could be this, but it'll never happen. And then to watch how hard they're playing. It all starts with Gordon, who's been, I think, the biggest winner of the playoffs from a career standpoint. I just think he's being discussed differently now, don't you? I mean, he's just.
- [62:21]
Ryan Rosillo
But I also, I also love.
- [62:22]
Bill Simmons
Is he our approval rating guy this year? No, I'm saying, yeah, we. There's a bunch of guys. But is he the 100% approval rating guy of the 25 playoffs? Like, who's. Who's zagging on Aaron Gordon at this point? Everybody's like, all in. Mr. Nugget. Mr. Clutch. One of the great. One of the maybe Orlando stats.
- [62:40]
Ryan Rosillo
It's like, sure, now.
- [62:42]
Bill Simmons
Oh, the Orlando.
- [62:46]
Ryan Rosillo
So he's not a small forward.
- [62:49]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Now he's been awesome.
- [62:50]
Ryan Rosillo
I think the other SGA part of it, just to complete that part of the conversation is maybe, you know, this is actually really funny. I'll never forget, like how interesting I thought this was when a Rod signed with the Rangers. Right. Sort of going back 25 years ago now. And he said, you know, when you fail in big spots, everybody's surprised. Like, your home fan base, like, he signs with the Rangers, and all you've ever seen is highlights of me doing amazing things, things on SportsCenter, especially back then, when that's all you had. And so when you see me fail, because you've never seen those things before, you almost think, like, wait, you're not. You're not supposed to do any of these things. And so the way. I mean, the fitting thing is that we're seeing both Jokic and SGA struggle in a very intense, very physical. And Denver's defensive level again. I wouldn't match it to the Thunder, but it's not what it was. At the end of the regular season or going into this whole thing, you're seeing two guys have a really hard time with as much attention on them, and maybe it makes sense. The series is two, too. I have a question for you.
- [63:50]
Bill Simmons
I just wanted to shout out Holmgren really quick, just really enjoy him. Like, it's just funny to think back at that draft and how much time we spent on those three guys, wondering what the possible ceilings were of each guy. And then it feels like Paolo and Chet are going to probably hit the ceiling of whatever we expected. I love how competitive he is. We knew Hartenstein was in there because of the playoffs last year. We got a glimpse of it. But you never know with some of these guys until they're thrown into the fire like this. I just think going against Jokic, just knowing that dude's lurking for two solid weeks, right? And to not get in foul trouble and to just battle him and battle. You just have to battle him. That's the only way to do it. You're not going to beat him. You're not going to shut him down. You just have to fight him. And I just think he's shown more fight than maybe even I thought he had. And I was a big fan of his, really. Like, just both of those guys are just trading haymakers with this guy who's this fucking monolith, you know, it's impressive. Anyway, what was your question?
- [64:53]
Ryan Rosillo
Do you think Malone is rooting for the Nuggets?
- [64:59]
Bill Simmons
Great question. Came to the right place. As you know, I'm a spiteful guy. I'm guessing he has a lot of relationships. And the answer would depend. Well, you know, relationships with these guys. The answer would depend on whether he thinks Jokic nudged him out or not. Whether they just told Jokic they were doing it or they Cleared it with yo. Like, if Jokic had a chance to defend him or not. And if he feels like Jokic had his back or not would be the answer. My guess is Jokic, probably. It's like, whatever, hey, we got a new coach. It's going to be. That guy's cool. I don't care. It might have been one of those, but it also might have been, hey, we're thinking of doing this. If you don't want to do us to do it, tell us now. Count to 10. You don't have to say yes or no. Just count to 10. It's like the Watergate when they call. Yeah, the end. When they call Watergate about. Is that the final guy on the list? And maybe he just didn't stick up for him. So I don't know. What do you think? No, he's against them because he's probably mad at the Cronkies.
- [66:09]
Ryan Rosillo
Sure. Mad at the. Well, the front office. The main guy isn't there anymore. You know, maybe, hey, 10 years with Joker, and this is my guy, and these guys all want a title together. But I would never trust anyone's answer, especially when your whole life has been just competing. So if they were to win a title. Right. Especially considering the odds going into this year versus the year that they did it with him, I wouldn't blame him. I just don't know too many people that have, you know what?
- [66:40]
Bill Simmons
He's kind of rooting against them. I think he is. My answer is yes. The more I'm thinking about it. You know, there's a youth parent phenomenon when your kid plays on a team and then somebody comes in and plays their position, and you're supposed to be rooting for the team, and you're rooting for everyone to do well, but at the same time, you're like, all right, don't do too well in this spot. Like, you just. It's human nature. People do for them.
- [67:03]
Ryan Rosillo
I don't know if I would want to hire a head coach that would be rooting for the team after he was fired by them. He can't answer it honestly, by the way. And even if I have an OKC question for you. Yeah, okay.
- [67:20]
Bill Simmons
Do you feel any differently about them than you did 10 days ago?
- [67:27]
Ryan Rosillo
Maybe just a little, because I thought they were really special. And you look at the net rating, you look at the point differential on what they did this season. This wasn't just a really good. I mean, this team could have won 70 games if they wanted to. You know, I was looking Back at it. You know, you go back to like some of these other regular seasons, right? Utah and 21. I mean, that was a team that projected as like a 59 win team. So all right, it's not 68, but they were number one in the league in net rating plus nine points. That Phoenix team after they had lost, remember how good they were in the regular season? But 64 win team net rating was less for them. And so I'll admit, like, is OKC struggling? Because with the way this game started, you go, how is OKC not up 20 already? And part of it was free throws and obviously OKC couldn't hit any threes either. And so, yeah, I. I'm allowing the down 31 thoughts to Creep into my head. Back to what I kind of hinted at. There is Windhorse saying players are not afraid of this OKC team. And I thought that that was dismissive. I started thinking about the way players GM and how wrong they are about guys they actually want to play with. I started thinking about some of the results from the players player polls and I don't even know if all star voting is even fair to do, but I'm like, there's so many times we have access the way players think. I'm like, what? How do you guys do this every night?
- [68:48]
Bill Simmons
And the X player podcast, don't leave them out.
- [68:52]
Ryan Rosillo
That's the best example. Because, you know, as I've admitted numerous times, like, I spend my life talking about this sport and you know, you're in rooms with guys that have done it. You're like, well, how can I disagree with them? And then after you're right, you see a few clips from the pods, I go, I'm gonna keep disagreeing. I'm gonna feel it even more emboldened. Is fucking insanity, what you're selling me. And so when I heard that coming out months ago, I'm like, oh, here we go again. Like, they're new, they're young, it's a smaller market. Like, everybody's just being super dismissive. You're just going to stop. Like, SGA's had one of the most productive guard seasons we've ever seen. You're just going to shut all the faucet. The faucet off. And so I was allowing some of that stuff to creep in my head where I'm going with, they're down 3:1. You know, is it the randomness of playoff basketball or is there some real truth to like, this team isn't as good as I thought they were? The numbers that are historic. They're not just good. These are historic numbers. And they have all these different. Different options who are like, that guy's coming in. And it's like, is. Is there something to be said that this was going to be another year of seasoning for this group? Because this would have been a massive disappointment. Who knows? They still might lose the series? Because I'm probably. No, I would say at this, I'm way more impressed with where Denver is at being 2:2 in this series, which then I think the other side of that is that, yeah, maybe I thought OKC was going to run through this team and they're not.
- [70:11]
Bill Simmons
My answer is both. I'm actually more impressed with OKC's defense than I expected to be because I think it's one thing to be a great regular season team, but to watch their playoff defense be even, an even. Maybe a little bit more impressive.
- [70:27]
Ryan Rosillo
So, yes, on that, but that's not surprising to me. I thought there was no way you could watch them all year and be like, they're not going to be as good in the playoffs.
- [70:35]
Bill Simmons
But there was this last level of like, all right, now what's going to happen when you're going against this Jokic Murray gauntlet when you're down 2:1 in a series? What. What level can you go to? And they. They just answered my questions there.
- [70:47]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I just. I didn't think. I. I think if there was one.
- [70:49]
Bill Simmons
Thing, you know, I'll be honest, like Chad against Jokic, as we have to shut down Jokic with these two guys, and one of them's Chet. I didn't think Chet was going to be big enough to handle him. And I think he's shown over the last couple games with Harenstein that. That maybe he can. The Jalen Williams piece is the piece I'm. I'm more lukewarm on than I was. And he was awesome on Friday. I thought he had a really good game and. And actually kind of, if they won the game, he would have probably been the biggest reason. But it. You know, when you're the second guy, and we saw. We saw this happen with Jalen Brown last year, when you're the second guy and sometimes you also have to resemble the first guy every once in a while for a team to really achieve.
- [71:32]
Ryan Rosillo
It's.
- [71:32]
Bill Simmons
What are you, like, taking numbers?
- [71:34]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, just going through Jokic's numbers here again, but go ahead, keep on listening.
- [71:39]
Bill Simmons
Well, that. That second guy, I think, has to be more than a second guy sometimes if you're gonna win Four rounds and Jalen got to that point last year. I think the best example is Pippen from 90 to 91. Now 90 ends the worst way possible with the migraine in the game seven, but he just in general wasn't quite ready yet. And then in 91, that whole season, especially down the stretch, was awesome. And then went to that Laker game and was like just such an additive asset game after game and went after Magic and like what he did to the Pistons. He was just awesome and it was consistently awesome. And I'm sure people go on the basketball reference like, no, he was 3 for 10 in game three. It's like, I'm telling you, Pippen went up a level and you could see it. And Jalen Williams, I can't tell if he's a year away from that or not because I think it's in there. But Friday night versus today, like that swing for four rounds against the wrong team. That might because I don't. If it's not him, I don't know who the third guy is who can create offense for them. They're just swinging the ball around. You know that. I just don't see it. And I think they're going to end up in a lot of these under a hundred games where the defense is going to carry them and maybe it'll be more like a 99 SP type of situation where your defense is so awesome, that's how you win. But so I'm a little, little, little more scared on that side. But the defense has been so good. I think it evens out the coach too, by the way, that I thought his game one was bad. You know, hasn't been in a lot of these, but I think he, I thought he blew game one. I just thought he did a couple dumb things. I think this is going seven Rosillo.
- [73:17]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, it feels right.
- [73:19]
Bill Simmons
Also, I thought it was notable that OKC was favored between 6 or 7 for this game today in Denver.
- [73:26]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah.
- [73:27]
Bill Simmons
Coming off of Friday night because Vegas, like with the Celtics, Celtics are down.02 and Vegas is like Celtics by 6. Still have them favored for the series. Right?
- [73:37]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah.
- [73:37]
Bill Simmons
Whoever fanduel name whoever set in the line this Denver OKC one people are like, eh, still think OKC's got it. Which I thought was notable. We're going to take a break for the podcast. This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. There's still a lot of stigma around mental health. Let's change that this Mental Health Awareness Month. Let's encourage everyone to get support when they need it. And if you're not sure where to find that support, check out BetterHelp. With a network of over 30,000 licensed therapists, they can help you find the right fit. We're all better with help. Visit betterhelp.com billsimmons to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P.com billsimmons this episode is brought to you by VRBO Private Vacation Rentals. With VRBO, you can save over $200 on select homes when you stay for a week or more. Say you wanted to go catch a few baseball games in Boston. Take some time off work, fly into Beantown, watch the Sox play. After that, you can do anything. Go book a VRBO in Cape Cod for a week. The world is your oyster or lobster roll or clam chowder. Really, if it has shells, gills and is indigenous to the Atlantic, it's your edible metaphor of choice. They're crustacean crazy down there. And guess what? Since you stayed longer than a week, you saved over $200. You know what that means? More shellfish. I love shellfish. Hope you're not allergic. Next vacation, stay longer and save. Make it a vrbo. This episode is presented by State Farm. On the basketball court, the best players know when to pass. And off the court, you still need teammates who are there when it counts. That's where State Farm comes in. With agents to help you find coverage that's right for you. You can focus on what really matters, whether that's hitting game winners or just getting through the day like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. State Farm coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. Our guy, Anthony Edwards, that was. Here's what I think was the tough one for Golden State. I actually really liked how they played. I thought they played hard. That's about as good of a game three, at least for three plus quarters as you're going to get from a team without Curry. And there were multiple times where it felt like they were going to bump the lead up to 10 or 11. You know, just was always five or six. And it felt like every time they had a chance to put a cushion, Ant would hit a three, somebody would miss a layup, somebody would come back and it just that Minnesota hung around, hung around, hung around and then and then killed them in the end. But Ant, I thought had some really big shots and some control of the game stuff. And then Randall, this has now hit the point with Randall that I think he might opt out we went from thinking like, yeah, I'll be, I'm in for 30 million again next year. I've exercised my player option, I'm in. I think he opts out now. He's been that good. Right. Why would he opt into one year? 30. He's going to be able to get.
- [76:35]
Ryan Rosillo
More than that, especially when you look at the free agents this year. Yeah, but you know, this, this thing that we touched on last week where you can just go through the cycle of, well, who has cap space? There's Minnesota. Go fine. You want to sign with Brooklyn? Is one of these other teams with like 19 million figure out a way to get creative. Does that make more sense to you? I mean, it probably feels like, hey, your role has worked here. It seems like it took a while, but he's, he's figured it out. I mean, I guess you could also argue in a way like Golden State, as hard as they fought last night, at no point did I think they were winning that basketball game. And there's probably no version of this Golden State team without Steph. I mean, who knows, maybe he comes back in Game 5. I mean, this is, this is asking a lot of the hamstring stuff, but it just never feels like Golden State. You're never like worried they're going to run away from you the way they.
- [77:32]
Bill Simmons
Normally with the team they have.
- [77:33]
Ryan Rosillo
Right.
- [77:34]
Bill Simmons
It's funny, I actually thought they were going to win in the fourth quarter.
- [77:37]
Ryan Rosillo
Did you?
- [77:37]
Bill Simmons
Because it just. Because the, the getting a random, Kaminga just going nuts, game on, combined with what Butler did for the first two and a half quarters, it was like, man, if they're ever going to win a game, this has to. This is the blueprint for how they would win a game.
- [77:51]
Ryan Rosillo
But.
- [77:53]
Bill Simmons
They can't figure out the Randall piece. It's really interesting what a mismatch he's been these first two rounds where you've seen teams go fuck, you know, and he knows it. And I think it's the smartest, most deliberate but not too slow, not ball stoppy, like the right level of picking his spots and taking, taking advantage of certain mismatches. I really like watching him and I. He used to be, if he wasn't my least favorite player to watch, he was in the top three. But I've really enjoyed watching him in the playoffs and I think, I think this team kind of knows what it is. The part that I don't really understand is what they're getting from Conley.
- [78:33]
Ryan Rosillo
The.
- [78:33]
Bill Simmons
Fact that he's been better than I thought he was going to be. I thought he had some really good defensive stuff. Like that key play of the game. He played excellent defense. I forget who it was. It was maybe Kaminga. Excellent defense, where it led to that fast break where they had Go Bear as the trailer, as the dunk, which was basically the play of the game.
- [78:47]
Ryan Rosillo
That's a late shot clock.
- [78:49]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, Antstrip Kaminga. But it all started because Conley was able to actually play defense. And Conley was somebody that in December, January, we were wondering, like, what were they going to do with this? Like, what were they going to just bail on him? Like, that's how bad he was looking. And now he's looking pretty good. But, you know, it's a bummer. Do you think if Curry plays, do you think they're better or. No, wait, Golden State. You think they can win this with healthy Curry? The whole time?
- [79:17]
Ryan Rosillo
Oh, the whole time.
- [79:20]
Bill Simmons
Who would you. Who, Who. After watching these games without him, would you still take Minnesota?
- [79:26]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I think I would. I. I like that they have the good Rudy moments and the non Rudy good moments. It seems like Butler clearly, if Rudy's out, he's trying to get momentum, he's trying to get downhill and he was able to go off at times. And so it probably feels good for Rudy to come in and be like, okay, now you're going to sell. Even. Even if you don't like Rudy during their struggles in the regular season, you could see other teams get so excited when he was taken out of the game, but instead of feeling like you're playing into the opponent's hands by. By going small. They're small. Is still so big.
- [80:05]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [80:05]
Ryan Rosillo
And you're going up against Golden State where, you know, good luck on the Butler. The non Butler minutes. I thought everybody kind of leading into that game was right. And like, hey, if Curry is out, like, you're going to have to start taking some shots you may not like taking because it's probably better than a wide open Gary Payton, second three. Buddy's been pretty good for the most part. I mean, Kaminga was incredible in game.
- [80:25]
Bill Simmons
Three was awful yesterday.
- [80:26]
Ryan Rosillo
Pods just can't hit a shot. Look, once again, I mean, Kerr, these guys must be thinking they're like starting a startup company with the way they go into these lineups. It's like Trace Jackson, Davis. People probably forgot he was on the team.
- [80:40]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [80:40]
Ryan Rosillo
And it's like he's starting at center.
- [80:42]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Bail down Quinton Post.
- [80:46]
Ryan Rosillo
I don't, I don't think. Look, I didn't pick them with them. Playing it out. I still like Minnesota better, but that was. That was a grind for a Minnesota team. Look, they were turning the basketball over a ton. The three point shooting for Ant had been a disaster other than that third quarter. But once you wake that dude up, I mean, it's just a different level.
- [81:06]
Bill Simmons
I had Minnesota in six, and I think even after watching this, without Curry, I'd probably. I don't think that would have changed. Golden state feels like 1 1/2 guys short, right? And that the reason I say one and a half instead of two is because that weird roster they have, you can get the random, out of nowhere half from somebody, but for the most part, it still feels like they're short and they can't survive terrible Draymond games with or without Curry. He was awful last night. He was really sloppy with the basketball. I thought Randall went right at him a couple times. It was kind of shocking. And for all the shit he talked about, go Bear. Like, I'm just. I was surprised that he wasn't great. I. I didn't love the fourth foul that was called on him. I thought that was a really big call.
- [81:54]
Ryan Rosillo
No, there's probably one he got away with. It was funny because Legs out with him, but Legs was like, you know, he's used to playing with fouls. I think it was 525 when he had had the fifth one. Yeah, right. And Legs goes. Like I said, I would have taken him out, but the funny thing is, is Draymond, he actually can't be trusted. I don't. I don't mind Kerr going, well, look, this whole thing is completely new. And without Steph, now everybody's asked to, like, step. Step up. Like, not just one role, like two roles. It feels like, like, hey, you're gonna have the ball in your hands a lot more, and you're gonna end with a decision, and you're gonna have to shoot in spots that normally you'd be waiting for him to cut. And by the way, all those cuts where you guys are wide open all the time, none of those are going to be there. So Draymond had the bad foul against Kawhi. He had the terrible foul against Memphis where he fouled out. He had a moment in the Houston series where he was in foul trouble. It's like, okay, do not give away a cheap one. He did it. And so the Jaden McDaniels drive. It's hard to tell Draymond, like, instinctively somebody who's in the conversation as defensive player of the year to not try to find a way to come over and contest. But he had no shot on that baseline drive. None whatsoever. Yeah, but I don't. Look, I don't feel bad.
- [83:05]
Bill Simmons
Put your hands up, but don't touch them.
- [83:06]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, so he. He actually can't be trusted in foul trouble. And that's. That all pales in comparison to his whole story and performance in game three. Because I thought game three was so incredibly. Oh, excuse me. Game two. Game two, when it looked like he wanted to get thrown out of the game.
- [83:29]
Bill Simmons
I still think Golden State's not dead. But even if Curry was able to come back in Game 6, I don't know what version we're getting from him. You know, we're getting.
- [83:39]
Ryan Rosillo
He said earliest game five.
- [83:41]
Bill Simmons
And I. I would lean closer to six. It was fun, though, the Kaminga thing. I was on Kaminga Island. I went down there last night just to watch with my fingers crossed. Brought a bottle of wine.
- [83:54]
Ryan Rosillo
Oh, yeah.
- [83:55]
Bill Simmons
Brought some chips, some cheese, some crackers. Nobody was there. It was just, just.
- [84:00]
Ryan Rosillo
You must not have public services or anything.
- [84:02]
Bill Simmons
Nothing. There's no electricity. It is a weird one. And I, you know, as Kerr's one of my favorite coaches, as you know, and I, I still, I. I think it's just so weird that he punted on Kamingo. When you watch some of the other guys in this team and I get it from his mindset, like, he makes mistakes on defense. He doesn't fit into our flow. They up. But the guy is so athletically talented and unique with the roster they have. I still can't believe he doesn't play that.
- [84:31]
Ryan Rosillo
Where.
- [84:31]
Bill Simmons
Here's where I've landed though. I think some guys just aren't good playing 18 to 20 minutes a game. We've seen it a lot. Some guys, they just need to play big minutes. I actually think Pritchard's a little bit like this for the Celtics. I don't think Pritchard is a let me come in for seven minutes each half guy. I think he needs bigger minutes and he was a huge part of why they won yesterday. But I just think some guys are like that. And maybe Kig is one of those. But if I was a gm, I would really think about him like, if I was the Pistons be like, you know what? Let's. Let's look at all the tapes of when Kamingo played 30 plus minutes and try to figure out what that looks like on our team. I think he's competitive. I really think there's something there.
- [85:15]
Ryan Rosillo
I defer to Kerr on This one, he's needed him, they've invested in him. And I would admit, yeah, you're right. In game two, the shot making, starting the game eight for eight, the pull up mid range, the finishes when he has momentum, it's bouncing off dudes on drives. But you know what's funny about that game is he actually was screwing up when he first came in. Yeah, he had a switch where he switched off of a worst defender into Ant. And I was like, okay, again, sometimes teams will just switch for the sake of just trying to get bodies moving around. But he wasn't thinking that way. Like, he is only good when he has the ball in his hands and he's thinking, I don't have to give this to anyone else. And then after that he decided like, oh, I'm gonna go, oh, I'm like, I've seen these Luca cuts. He kills Rudy. So it's like, I'm gonna go at Rudy. And then that didn't work. And it was, he got stuck underneath the basket by the baseline and that was kind of a mess. So there were a few things that jumped out. And you'll see it over the course of him because the scoring by itself is very impressive. At his age, his athleticism and at that size, the biggest win, if they were to lose this series may be getting people to think he's.
- [86:26]
Bill Simmons
They no question rejuvenated his trade value. As a sign of trade guy, he had a play in the third quarter when and the words had momentum and he was had ant 40ft from the basket and took this crazy angle and ant just went by him and had this crazy duck on him.
- [86:42]
Ryan Rosillo
Last night, right?
- [86:43]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, last night.
- [86:43]
Ryan Rosillo
I mean, he tried to pick, he tried to like get into a stance.
- [86:46]
Bill Simmons
So. And I watched that and I'm like, no wonder Kerr's not playing him because this is like, I, I, I don't understand how that would be your defensive tactic. It's too bad. I, you know, Curry's 37. They put a lot of miles on him and he ended up breaking down and having an injury. And it's not shocking, but it's too bad because this would have been a really fun series. Celtics, Knicks.
- [87:07]
Ryan Rosillo
How are you?
- [87:11]
Bill Simmons
I did something unusual. I invited my wife's friend Krista, who's very fun, came over yesterday and we had margaritas and I drank margaritas during the entire game. That was how I dealt with game three. Is that all that day? Drank it. They drank it up. I was really nervous and just decided to enjoy my Saturday and have Some cocktails and watch the Celtics. And, and it was a fun one.
- [87:37]
Ryan Rosillo
First one. A lot of people are nervous. So where are you though? Conference wise.
- [87:44]
Bill Simmons
They'Re a better basketball team. They're down 12 in the series. They've led every game by 20 plus points. I mean, how am I supposed to feel? This is a ridiculous series.
- [87:58]
Ryan Rosillo
How do you.
- [87:58]
Bill Simmons
I've never seen a series like that. They're up 20 points in the second half of all three games and they're down 2 to 1. I will say, I thought, I thought Joe caught a couple amazing timeouts. There was a couple. It's like, just call it now, Joe. Just don't, don't be a hero. Call the timeout now. The Knicks are rumbling. They're ready to go on a run here. And he called it three times. And, and I thought the most important thing he did, which of course they did not mention at the halftime show, was just played. Pritchard, they, he just, he played him 18 minutes in the first half, kept him out there. Holiday played 10 minutes. Pritchard's a real problem for the Knicks. I don't fully understand it, but they, they don't seem to have anybody on their team who can guard him. He's not afraid to guard. Brunson spaces the floor. Floor. The more he plays, the better he is. And I thought he was absolutely massive. And the biggest reason they won the game. And then also Horford on two days rest, which by the way will not be happening again for three more games. But Horford, two days rest versus one day rest was, was big. And I thought Porzingis as much luggage as he, as he looks like, he was still pretty important defensively in a couple patches of that game just by being long and kind of standing around with this hands up. So great win. They needed it. I thought the Knicks, they played three games now and haven't looked good in any of them, which means they're due for a good game, which is the part that worries me the most. They haven't played a good game yet.
- [89:33]
Ryan Rosillo
Defensively, I think Boston's been terrific in this series. What they're doing to Brunson, how they've contained him. And granted, like, Brunson started getting it going. You know, he closed game two, obviously really well. And maybe it doesn't matter because they're down so much in game three, but there was a couple moments like MSG was hoping, can this thing get to 15?
- [89:55]
Bill Simmons
Right? That was the great Joe timeout. When it got to 17, Joe's like timeout.
- [90:00]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, but if you look at the Knicks regular season, 117 points per 100 possessions. Granted, the playoffs, it's going to be different. It's only three games, but it's 101 for the Knicks offensively against the Celtics defense, and it was 110, I think against Detroit. Brunson's 38, 39% splits. The free throw thing has not been a big part of it. They tried maybe a little bit.
- [90:23]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, it's a little harder to get to the line these days.
- [90:25]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. But the overall free free throw numbers, I would say for Brunson, even though, you know, it turns into a conversation about his baiting the numbers, you know, don't show up the way it does for maybe a couple other players. He took nine against Detroit, and Cat has made one three in this entire series. I mean, his splits are atrocious. He's shooting 14% from 3. 43 overall. I also think he's getting incredibly frustrated because it's the default go to if Boston's looking for something. Hey, just get Cat in the action and he's probably not going to be here quick enough. I mean, it's just asking a lot with his body type and the way he moves to be able to contest all of these threes. But I think my favorite part of that game was that even if you're going to make more threes, which they clearly did, they're wide open numbers. I think Shulman had@NBA.com on wide open. Right. 25%, 12 or 48, whatever tracking they were using. I went through the first two games combined in game three, 12 and 19. So I mean, you could, you could simplify it and say, hey, that's the game.
- [91:26]
Bill Simmons
No, but that's. That wasn't it though. The, the offense was so much more sophisticated than it was those first two games. I really loved. I liked how they played in the first half.
- [91:35]
Ryan Rosillo
There's, there's like two things that I'll look for. They would get Jalen Brown into Brunson post ups. And it's not necessarily the shot that I want, but you have to send help.
- [91:47]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [91:47]
Ryan Rosillo
And even if they have different rules of like maybe this far out, we have Jalen get into one of those weird shot attempts. You know, I don't know. Zach Lowe was talking about at the end of the game too, where he was foul baiting Brunson a bit and Zach was like, oh, my God, you know this. And the crazy thing is, is to me, Jalen has had so many shot attempts that are like that, that I can't believe he's taking him. And it feels like they've gone in more than they haven't. That I almost just give him the benefit of the doubt on some of these tougher looks. But it was much more like there's two things with him on those post ups. As soon as he gets help, he was really good and they're swinging the button, it's like, okay, this is something you're starting with as opposed to just the Hunt switch. ISO 3 that I think drives even the hardest core Celtic fan. Absolutely crazy. The other part with Jalen is you have to get him with momentum with the ball because if he stops, then it's, it's totally different. And I, I think his aggressiveness at the start of that game, even going back to the Orlando series when no one could make a shot, it just, it feels like he is, is more aware at times of what they need on offense. And I, I really thought it showed itself when they put together that huge first half.
- [92:59]
Bill Simmons
We saw it the same way. One, one thing I liked and I don't know what happened in game one, game two, I have no explanation for it, but in game three, they put a real concerted effort into putting guys in spots that they like that the Knicks didn't like. Tatum was another one. Like one of the first plays they ran for him. Tatum's always good when he has the ball on the left like 35ft from the, the basket. You set him a pick and he dribbles right toward the key and he can pull up from three. And I always feel like it's going in when he takes that. Those first two games they just, they had him dribbling the ball up as the point forward and you know, playing with his food, doing the one on one stuff. I thought they got everybody involved and I thought they really did a good job with Pritchard. They ran a couple Drew Holiday plays. They got White. White got a couple plays where they set some picks for him. He was trying to go to the basket. They kept going downhill and really smart. And then when they took the big lead in the second half, you could feel it veering back toward that Game one, game two offense again. Cause they were trying to basically kill time. When this team tries to go in the pre bet offense. I'm not going to like it every time. Just so you know, there's never going to be a situation where I'm happy when they go prevent offense. I don't like it. I think when they're moving when they try to run. That was another thing. They were trying to run off rebounds and turnovers. Push the ball, push the ball, push the ball. And you know, the Knicks aren't. That's where you want. You want towns like running back, trying to, you know, try to get back there. The Mitchell Robinson, hacka Robinson stuff, I thought was really good. I don't like that hack of stuff. I've never liked it, but I thought it. It hurt the Knicks. It changed, you know, it. It changed the energy of the game in a couple spots when the Knicks felt like they were about to make some sort of comeback. And then Anobi was awful. And that's. He was incredible. Game one, right? He was the best guy in the floor. Game one and game three. You didn't know he. He had the Tobias Harris. I didn't realize you were out there.
- [94:57]
Ryan Rosillo
So I still avoid him at all costs. With the ball.
- [95:01]
Bill Simmons
If you have the ball. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you're the Knicks, what's your move.
- [95:08]
Ryan Rosillo
Huck? Pori three, man. Three. Big up front. Winning on triple bigs. It's also the first game Mitchell wasn't like a huge plus on the net side of it. And I. I'm with you. Like, you can talk about his defense. I think Pritchard got him a couple times in isolation. It's like, man, you know, like, hit step backs on Mitchell Robinson from three and awesome. He was. He was great. But I don't know how you know Reggie Miller in game, too. There was an airball where it didn't hit any. It wasn't just an airball. It went under the net. It's an impossible free throw attempt. Miss. Like, even the worst free throw guy in the league, like, was almost like, hey, aim it right and below the net to win some sort of prize. Right.
- [95:50]
Bill Simmons
Like at a carnival.
- [95:51]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. And Reggie Miller goes, well, it happens. It's like, that doesn't happen. You don't see that. Yeah. And then he had another one.
- [95:59]
Bill Simmons
He injured the cameraman. That. That. We don't see that too often.
- [96:03]
Ryan Rosillo
And you wonder how does that not. Because, I mean, every emotion Mitchell Robinson has, he wears. Honestly, there's. There's no poker face about how incredibly frustrated he is with this. And he had tried to say something like, hey, it's a compliment that they want you out of the game this bad. And he's like, that's one way to process this. Yeah.
- [96:20]
Bill Simmons
Or they're trying to get 0.5 per possession. Points per possession.
- [96:24]
Ryan Rosillo
0.34. Me.
- [96:25]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [96:26]
Ryan Rosillo
Considering his. His free throw percentage. But you wonder how much that bleeds in and look. Or it's the simplicity of a. The team we all think is better is down 02. They've been through some wars before. It is a team that does seem to like to make things really hard on themselves. And it was going to be really surprising if they were down 3. 0. So all.
- [96:43]
Bill Simmons
They don't think that's good on the road in a way that I almost feel more comfortable with them on the road than at home. Their record at. I think on the road was better than at home this year.
- [96:54]
Ryan Rosillo
I don't know why.
- [96:54]
Bill Simmons
The home court advantage doesn't matter for them anymore. And I don't know really what's happened to home court advantage in general.
- [97:01]
Ryan Rosillo
They were 33 and 8 on the road. Yeah. That's better than OKC was 32 and 8.
- [97:07]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. I don't get it.
- [97:11]
Ryan Rosillo
Come on, you got to have something else. Some other Celtics thought like, is this. Did you ever allow yourself to think they were losing the series?
- [97:19]
Bill Simmons
I still, I still don't feel comfortable.
- [97:22]
Ryan Rosillo
I don't know if comfortable is what I'm looking for here. Did you. Did you have a moment after game two where you were like, they're going to lose to the Knicks in the second round?
- [97:29]
Bill Simmons
I mean, I told you I invited my wife's best friend over to have margaritas with me for the entire day because I was so nervous about game three. So that was my state of mind. It's not something I typically do on a Saturday. The Porzingis thing really makes me nervous. I think it puts an incredible amount of pressure on Horford and Cornet to a lesser degree. I really worry about them with rebounding. My fear for game four with the one day rest is the Knicks pounding them on the boards and the crowd being really into it and them hanging around, hanging around and getting second chances and Horford just being luggage like he was in game two. And Porzingis just seeming. I don't know what the right word is.
- [98:13]
Ryan Rosillo
Weak.
- [98:14]
Bill Simmons
He's.
- [98:15]
Ryan Rosillo
He's weak. I mean, the illness, if this is what we're talking about here, he seems.
- [98:20]
Bill Simmons
Off, like almost fumbly hands. Like his reflexes aren't even there a hundred percent in the same way.
- [98:26]
Ryan Rosillo
So what he bearish?
- [98:27]
Bill Simmons
Well, what. More. More like, who is that guy in okc, that poco. A little Poco. Ish. He at least learned in the Knicks game, the game three, to just keep his hands up and be like, I'm tall. I'm going to do that. But, you know, it's, it's a massive loss to have this guy who is a guaranteed 20, who is like their swagger guy in a lot of ways. When he was getting going the whole team, it was like an electroshock. And also it's just a huge pain in the ass. And I think specifically kills Towns, and you're just removing that and you're getting this kind of luggage version of him. I thought Cornette was good. And Pritchard, I think, has weirdly become the key swing guy of the series, because I don't see why game three can't keep happening for him. He's getting guys in switches and he's just destroying them, and he's hitting all of his corner threes and the spacing that he gives them. We also have not had a good Tatum game yet, which I, I, I think is a positive for the Celts. And I thought Brown looked pretty athletic. So, yeah, there's some positives. But, yeah, they're down 2:1. I'm never going to feel good about this. It feels like it's going to go seven. I think the Knicks will have one awesome game when they shoot like 20 for 42 from 3. And, you know, it's just law of averages, they're not going to just suck for the entire series.
- [99:50]
Ryan Rosillo
Offensively, they've been great with Brunson. I've been really impressed with that part of it. Not to say you're going to completely shut this guy down. And I know he had a ton of points in Game 3, but it doesn't feel like he's had those long stretches of, oh, no, like now he's the best player on the floor, and there's nothing you can do with him. And Cat not providing the spacing is probably a big part of it not being a little bit easier for Brunson.
- [100:17]
Bill Simmons
That I don't, that I can't explain.
- [100:19]
Ryan Rosillo
His rebounding's been great, but I don't.
- [100:21]
Bill Simmons
Understand why he's not jacking up seven, eight threes a game. I always feel like they're going in when he takes them. It's one of those. I don't like when he's open.
- [100:32]
Ryan Rosillo
No, I wouldn't say that.
- [100:33]
Bill Simmons
I also don't like when they put him on the low block with, with Horford on him or a smaller guy, and he actually, like, gets aggressive and tries to wheel into them like he did in Game two. I think that's sitting there for them. And I thought Bridges had some really nice offensive moments in Game 3 where he's got that little funky near the baseline, little 8, 10 footer that they know they can go to, so they have options, but, you know, they suck sometimes. This will happen, though, with the game where it's the hottest ticket. The crowd's crazy. Oh, my God, that crowd's gonna be off the hook. And then the other team comes out and throws a haymaker, and they're up 15, and they. The crowd, you know, everyone's just paralyzed. Like, what happened? I thought, you know, people are there. They went on StubHub. Their kid wanted to go. You have all these celebrities. Every Nick is there. There's this crazy energy that's happening, and then you can diffuse that in like 10 minutes. You know, we've seen that over and over again with. With the. The Monday night will be, I think, be. That'll be not a crowd with the kids. That'll be like the real Nick fans. There'll be a real energy in that game. And I really worry about the rebounding for the Celtics that they need. Like, Tate. It needs to be like a 14 rebound game for Tatum.
- [101:43]
Ryan Rosillo
Where would you put Tatum in superhero mode? Get us a basket.
- [101:51]
Bill Simmons
Oh, I thought you were going the Superman ads. Like, talk about timing. Jesus.
- [101:57]
Ryan Rosillo
Nothing worse than playoff p. When in the Gatorade ad, he. He's making the shot, and then they came back from commercial and he missed it in the game.
- [102:06]
Bill Simmons
I think this is a good PSA for all the guys out there. Maybe don't do those commercials. If you might be in a tough series, I would bet that one around with maybe your manager, your agent, the other people in your life. What are the worst case scenarios for this ad? So I'm going to be in a Superman thing on a Saturday, and we're down 02. And there's just been a national dialogue about whether I'm a superstar or not for three days. And now I'm in a Superman career commercial. Maybe. Maybe hold off till July on those. I don't know.
- [102:37]
Ryan Rosillo
Okay, let's do this, though. Tie game, shot clock is off. How many guys will you name that you feel better about than Tatum?
- [102:48]
Bill Simmons
Here's the thing, because I heard you do this on Thursday, you feel the same way I did about Tatum this year. I think Tatum's been awesome. I voted for him third in the clutch rankings, which I still don't really fully understand the clutch rankings, because it's like, why isn't Jokic the winner of the clutch player? Like, he does everything. But I thought Tatum was really Good and reliable and smart in these crunch times. And you know, that went sideways in the first two Knicks games. But the only thing I don't like with him is the step back three with the hand in the face. And you know, there's a reason heading into yesterday, what was it the last 32 playoff games, you're shooting 28% from three. That's bad. There's your answer. That means you're taking too many bad threes if you're at 28%. I thought he took some good ones yesterday. And then near the end when they had a big lead, it got a little dicey.
- [103:44]
Ryan Rosillo
I thought about it more since we had these back to back Mitchell points performances. I can't wait. Can't wait for him today. So it's Jokic, right? It's Luca.
- [103:56]
Bill Simmons
So you're saying give me this scenario. It's like 40 seconds left, tie game, it's a 21 in the series. Like what some of these guys.
- [104:05]
Ryan Rosillo
Terrible. Two for one. So let's just say shot clock is off and it's tied.
- [104:09]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [104:11]
Ryan Rosillo
What just you just get me think.
- [104:14]
Bill Simmons
Of something that I think the two flags, two for one is. This has now become an epidemic where we've gone, we've done a 180 now where the two for one team should do this. You get two shots for one and now the first shot that they're getting on the two for one is the worst shot of the game. And I, I just, it's like, cool. You're. You're going to get a second shot now. Three seconds left. You just took a 29 footer with a hand in your face with 30 seconds.
- [104:38]
Ryan Rosillo
I swear to God, the league, the league average is like 50 points per 100 possessions on the first attempts.
- [104:45]
Bill Simmons
Always by everybody, everybody in the league.
- [104:48]
Ryan Rosillo
But people would yell at us on the math side of it being like, yes, but you guys are forgetting the payoff of the extra possession. All right, maybe, but okay, but it.
- [104:56]
Bill Simmons
Doesn'T mean horrible possessions. Does that add up to one possession.
- [104:59]
Ryan Rosillo
It turns into Seymour Hoffman, like Rain man. You know, like, what is that you didn't even give yourself. You know, it's actually. I don't know if it's worse, but it's bothering me more. Yeah, there will be a time where the shot clock is still on. So you know, the other team is getting the ball back. So say, say it's like 34 seconds left in the quarter, full shot clock 24. So they're getting it back probably with 10 and they're you know, maybe 10 seconds, I would say what 14 seconds is the best chance at like a full look. So when I see these possessions and I promise I'll explain this, there is a moment where you just have to accept they're going to probably be able to run something and it's going to be a halfway decent look. But the team that has the ball will still run the shot clock down to one as if they're preventing the other team from having time that's already in there. And yes, you could talk about offensive rebounds or a ball that goes off.
- [105:57]
Bill Simmons
We got the ball back with 11 seconds left.
- [106:00]
Ryan Rosillo
There are a ton of shit attempts in this scenario because guys are acting as if they're running down a clock to a point that like doesn't exist. The other team is most likely, in all the scenarios you run, going to have enough time. And so hey, if you had a good look with five seconds left on the shot clock and that meant there's 15 game or 19 game clock and their game, their shot clock is off. Like it take the shot with five seconds left on the shot clock, you don't have to run that down to one. Cause they're still getting the ball back with plenty of time for a decent look anyway. And guys have really emphasized running that down to the last possible second when there's still going to be time that you can't work off of the clock. Other than offensive rebound and some of the other stuff.
- [106:42]
Bill Simmons
We need a whole Sloan conference study on how stupid the 2 for 1 is.
- [106:45]
Ryan Rosillo
I will not be invited.
- [106:47]
Bill Simmons
Can I say one thing on the Tatum end of the game, shot clock off.
- [106:50]
Ryan Rosillo
Cause you're not going to answer it.
- [106:52]
Bill Simmons
No, because normally I like it. Guess when I don't like it as much when Anunoby is guarding him. Well, that, I mean, I think Anunoby is a nightmare. I have been so impressed. I mean, he's had a really good season. I think he's had a really good stretch.
- [107:04]
Ryan Rosillo
We knew he was good.
- [107:05]
Bill Simmons
He's a fucking nightmare. I don't think Tatum can go buy him because he's so strong and he moves his feet. So we've seen over and over again with Brown and Tatum, when they go against them, it's like watching somebody try to open a front door that won't open and they're just like, no, no, it's going to open and they're banging. You can't get by him.
- [107:21]
Ryan Rosillo
I need to find on Synergy because we don't have a second spectrum anymore. I need to find how many shot attempts he's defending. And sometimes again, this shit. You'll see the number and you see the graphic and if you have time to look at it, you're like, all right, well, I don't. But I would imagine that the staff is going. We do not want to switch into him. And granted, if it's the end of the shot clock and you don't have really any choice and there's nothing else to do, but we need to avoid ISO on ball attacks against this dude. My favorite part of him, Bill, is during that Detroit series, they're trying to get him off a Kate as much as they possibly can. And he would say still find it also helps if a big is somebody you don't care about as much and popping out, which was supposed to be a big difference in. In how some of these teams are matching up with each other to your Brzinga point. But his fight to get back into the play and challenge, even though he's been kind of run off with a screen, I mean, he's. He's at that size, man.
- [108:14]
Bill Simmons
He's.
- [108:14]
Ryan Rosillo
He's really special. And it's just kind of fun to get to watch it at this level of the season.
- [108:20]
Bill Simmons
He's been a big winner of the playoffs. If I'm the Celtics near the end of the games or the end of the plays or when I need a basket, I just feel like there's better options and all of them are better options out there. And Brunson is out there. Whoever is guarding whoever those guys are guarding. That's my first thought. And even if that means we're. We have Peyton Pritchard with Mitchell Robinson on the right side and he's going to go one on one with him with 177 seconds left. I like it because I just. I just feel like there's ways to attack this team that for whatever reason, they weren't doing it. Well, we'll see what happens tomorrow night. I think the Celtics are going to be in for a really hard game tomorrow. It's not a game I would bet, and I'm worried about the next now.
- [109:04]
Ryan Rosillo
How many margaritas.
- [109:08]
Bill Simmons
The entire day?
- [109:10]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I mean, it sounds like you were pretty on it. I mean, it wasn't like you were breaking down Minnesota Golden State. Why aren't they playing Bogan?
- [109:17]
Bill Simmons
We had forder in the game, but I was also like powering water. Cause that's the vet move. People don't realize. You don't realize that when you're in college. Just drink a lot of water gives you like superhuman. Yeah. All right, one more break for the podcast and then we gotta talk lottery. This episode is brought to you by UberEats. Summer's almost here and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. What do we mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parmesan delivered. A cabana? That's a no. A banana? That's a yes. A nice tan. Sorry, no. But a box fan? Happily, yes. A day of sunshine? Nope. A box of fine wines.
- [109:58]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah.
- [109:59]
Bill Simmons
Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost. Almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol in select markets. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. This episode is brought to you by Altra Running. Every pair of Altra shoes has a roomy toe box and zero to low drop which lets your toes spread and keeps your foot in a more natural position. All in the name of comfort and performance with a variety of styles. There's a shoe for everyone. It's comfort you have to feel to believe. Try Altra for yourself with a free 30 day trial and free shipping at altrarunning. Com Lottery Karma rankings. I used to do this as a column once upon a time. I did not send you my list. I was just going to go through and have it react. I'll read you the teams with the odds and their top four odds and basically come down to who I think should win from a karma standpoint for the lottery. All right, so what does that entail? What does that mean, karma for a lottery?
- [111:04]
Ryan Rosillo
What does it mean? Yeah.
- [111:06]
Bill Simmons
Did you behave the right way as an organization in a basketball team? Did you bastardize your season?
- [111:13]
Ryan Rosillo
Ethical tanking what you're saying?
- [111:16]
Bill Simmons
Have you won in the past? Have you already been given a bunch of lottery carrots over Cleveland Point? This is the Cleveland Point. When you watch the lottery three times in four years, it was fucking ludicrous.
- [111:29]
Ryan Rosillo
I, by the way, just a quick aside when you would lose your mind to a non receptive audience on tv. I enjoyed it.
- [111:37]
Bill Simmons
Thank you.
- [111:37]
Ryan Rosillo
Because you weren't really even talking to anybody. I don't even know if you were talking. You were just so mad, like this shouldn't have happened. Yeah.
- [111:44]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Everybody's just staring at me. Are you just doing the right thing as an organization? Are you on a good run? Right. Do you deserve it? Basically because you're just doing the right things. You're making good decisions, you're picking good players.
- [112:01]
Ryan Rosillo
Maybe you're the Good trade don't lie.
- [112:04]
Bill Simmons
Right. So anyway, my number one team for the lottery karma rankings. Drumroll, Priest. The Houston Rockets, they have 3.8% odds to win the number one pick and 17.3 to win the top get in the top four. They got the pick from that Brooklyn trade they have. So this is basically Phoenix's pick. And I still to this day didn't really love the James Harden trade that much that they made for Brooklyn, but it turned out fine. But they've made a lot of good draft picks and they've set themselves up in a really nice way. I even like the Shengoon Green contracts they did. I'm interested to see what they do this summer. And I think of everyone in the lottery, they've earned the right to say, like, you know what? We've just done it the right way here the last couple years. So that'd be my first pick. Your reaction? Wow.
- [113:00]
Ryan Rosillo
Hard to argue when we go based on your criteria.
- [113:04]
Bill Simmons
Okay. Number two, by the way. What if Houston gets the top four? They become a content machine for the ringer and for our pods. Content machine.
- [113:19]
Ryan Rosillo
I thought we were going to do 30 minutes of Giannis to the Thunder today.
- [113:23]
Bill Simmons
Don't think I didn't have it written down for alternate remember wins. No, it's like, shit, like, this is now. This is now happening.
- [113:34]
Ryan Rosillo
By the way, for Reeves. How does that work? Go ahead.
- [113:37]
Bill Simmons
Can I give you some Giannis intel?
- [113:39]
Ryan Rosillo
Please do.
- [113:41]
Bill Simmons
Everyone in Milwaukee thinks he's coming back now, granted the weeks pass and you never know. But I don't think they're expecting a trade request.
- [113:54]
Ryan Rosillo
Can I ask you a follow up?
- [113:56]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [113:58]
Ryan Rosillo
Say the Thunder were to lose. Impress. He calls. It's like, okay, I'm just gonna. I'm gonna crank up our ceiling. Would it behoove the Bucks, Which I've said from the beginning, if Giannis goes, hey, I'm fine, then you just keep them. And if it means you win 50.
- [114:13]
Bill Simmons
Games, you just proactively trade him without even asking him.
- [114:16]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. Go. I don't want to do this again. 6. Yeah.
- [114:21]
Bill Simmons
Who do I get him from? OKC HomeGrid has to be in it, right? He has to be in it. I'm not hanging up unless he's in it.
- [114:28]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, you need good players because of the draft stuff that you lay out.
- [114:32]
Bill Simmons
But Holmgren has to be in the trade.
- [114:34]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, I imagine you have to get somebody good. Yeah. So would you rather have Chet than Jalen Williams?
- [114:40]
Bill Simmons
Oh, I'd rather have Chad.
- [114:45]
Ryan Rosillo
I would rather have Chet, too. I'm Very excited about Chad. I'd like him to be a little more confident that three if he misses a couple early ones. But you know, we could get there at the end of this round.
- [114:52]
Bill Simmons
So who knows what is he 20? Is he 22? 23. I'm a big chat fan that I think the only thing that worries me is the. The. He's had two injuries already and now granted, it's like, well, what. But I just. Yeah, injured big guys make me nervous.
- [115:07]
Ryan Rosillo
My next body fat of 6%.
- [115:10]
Bill Simmons
My number two team in the Lottery Karma rankings, the Washington Wizards. 14% odds for number one, 52.1 to be in the top four. And first of all, I liked their draft last year. They've changed the organization around. I don't think they've been like crazy dysfunctional. I even kind of like the Jordan pool trade looking back, like, fine.
- [115:33]
Ryan Rosillo
Especially if you're tanking.
- [115:36]
Bill Simmons
This is more selfish. We need more good players in the east and you and I need more good players in the 4pm PT games. I just feel like we're late.
- [115:47]
Ryan Rosillo
We can't watch the pistons all 82.
- [115:49]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. What are we going to do is we get the Pistons some Celtic games. Like we just think I've watched enough. Atlanta need to beef up. We need to beef up those. That crew. And I just feel like I like the way they've handled the last couple years for the most part. So that was a strong number two. Your reaction like that one in the past a couple times.
- [116:12]
Ryan Rosillo
At least there feels like there's a plan and direction. And look, Winger is a stud. Everybody's talked about the stuff he did at okc, but he's done with the Clippers. So he is. He's a guy that I know privately that I would. I guess I'm saying it publicly, like if the Wizards end up with it, good for him, good for Winger, good for this fan base because, you know, no one's that fan base. That was a fun team that you never took that seriously, but it's kind of a sneaky, awesome fan base. And they have had. They have had nothing. They have had nothing. Think about the Caps. Think about the Commanders. Those are some of the best fan bases in their respective sport. And this basketball team, like going back to Jeff Malone and when they had Ruland, Frankie Robinson, that terrible, terrible 1986 trade with the Sixers. But it was a team that you're always like, oh, you know, they may bring it tonight. And it was it. I don't know. They always felt like a little bit More on the radar. And this is a very, very long time, you know, flirtation with the. The Westbrook Beal run that year when Beal probably showed us enough of like, oh, is that guy going to be a dude that checks out on the team? Yeah, I. I think it's a really. Because I think of the fan base, too. I think of the fan base a little bit and what they deserve. And I think that fan base is long overdue for some good news.
- [117:34]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, they won. Well, the last really fun team that seemed like they had a chance to maybe make the finals was that 2017 team that lost to the one and only Kelly Olenek. They had a fun Arenas run there for about a split second in the mid 2000s. And they had a fun split second with C. Webb and Juwan and Rod Strickland and whatever that was, even though they got swept in round one. People remember it fondly now, but think about this.
- [117:59]
Ryan Rosillo
Like, think about what you're reaching for here for.
- [118:03]
Bill Simmons
Listen, I've known house since 1988 and he's never had anyone remotely approaching Cooper flag. The best players he's had since I've known him, which is two thirds of my life now, were Bernard king in the 1990 C. Web. The. The not washed up, but getting there. Mitch Richmond and then Arenas and then Bradley, Beal and Wall. So anyway, I have them second. Number three, Portland.
- [118:33]
Ryan Rosillo
By the way, real quick, I'm putting you on the spot. What do you think their highest win total was in the 80s?
- [118:38]
Bill Simmons
Oh, I don't. Definitely not in the 50s. Probably like 45 and 37.
- [118:43]
Ryan Rosillo
That's why you're the. That's why you're the best.
- [118:45]
Bill Simmons
Is that what it was?
- [118:47]
Ryan Rosillo
43, 39 in 1982?
- [118:50]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, they've been horrible. Remember, they won the 78 title and that was almost 50 years ago. All right, so third one. They won the title so long ago that the team that they beat has not been in their city for 20 years. That's how long it's been.
- [119:06]
Ryan Rosillo
Number three, 48 games that year, too. That's weird.
- [119:10]
Bill Simmons
44 number one odds for Portland, 3.8. Top four, 16.9. The reasons here, the Dame trade was the right trade. I think they get rewarded for that. The Abdia trade was probably the sneaky move of the summer last year. We're still in it with our guys. Scoot. I like their weird collection assets. The Billups coaching hire turned out to be pretty good. I think they extended him and it's arrow pointing up in a lot of Ways should be a good spot for Cooper Flack.
- [119:38]
Ryan Rosillo
I like it except for I just feel like does that diminish Scoot Star.
- [119:44]
Bill Simmons
Or does it lift him?
- [119:49]
Ryan Rosillo
All your arguments for both.
- [119:50]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, it gets tough after the top three Priscilla for the lottery karma rankings.
- [119:55]
Ryan Rosillo
So you think it's a clear tier? One of those three teams that's done it, that deserve it, done it the right way.
- [120:01]
Bill Simmons
Houston, Washington, Portland. Fourth one. Utah, number one. Odds 14%. They have the best. They're in the one spot. So even if a couple teams jump them, they'll still be there. Six teams have never had the first pick in the draft. Can you name them? Utah's one of them. So there's a hint.
- [120:24]
Ryan Rosillo
Utah, Toronto. No, they had it with Barnyani.
- [120:29]
Bill Simmons
Yep.
- [120:30]
Ryan Rosillo
El Magico.
- [120:32]
Bill Simmons
It's a really hard question.
- [120:34]
Ryan Rosillo
It is a tough question. Question. Has Dallas ever had it?
- [120:37]
Bill Simmons
Yep. They have Mark Aguirre. I'll give you the six. The Denver Nuggets, the Indiana Pacers, the Memphis Grizzlies, who famously came one spot away from LeBron James. 2003. One of the great lottery reactions of all time. Miami Heat have never had the number one pick and the Oklahoma City Thunder have somehow never had the number one pick. So Utah, they took care of Will Hardy, which I appreciated. They gave him a contract till 2031. Like, sorry, dude. Sorry we had to make you do that. The last two years their owner has been great. I think he's probably the best kind of new wave owner the league's brought in in the last 10 years. But they did, they did really tank pretty aggressively. But I think it would be fun to have flag go to this team. So I'm going to overlook some stuff with them. I have them fourth. Your reaction?
- [121:42]
Ryan Rosillo
I believe they should be in tier one. I mean, we sit here, we want to play the tanking game and say the Wizards did it the right way and then Utah did it the wrong way. And I'm sure plenty of basketball people would agree with you. But look, Mitchell was going to want out. They cleaned up on the Rudy thing. They hit reset on a team that, you know, we just pointed out earlier in the pod. Remember when they won all those games and it was 59 win profile team and then immediately were like, hey boys, this is the playoffs. It's going to, it's not going to translate like it does for other teams. You know, sometimes you regular season of playoff. I think the most important part of this, you've got me on whatever tier of ethical tanking. You have these teams ranked through. But as far as what Utah needs, okay, what they need is a guy that may want to actually stay in Utah for 10 years.
- [122:29]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [122:30]
Ryan Rosillo
I think the only way they're ever going to get somebody who's a franchise changing player is to get a Cooper flag in the draft. They're not going to be a destination for free agency. Even though I've heard Ryan Smith, the owner, like, laid it out like, hey, we're not small market. Like, look how great all these things. I think if you're a simple guy, you'd actually like to play in Salt Lake. I think Salt Lake's oddly confusing to a lot of different people. Like, it's just, it's. It's kind of more convenient than Denver.
- [122:57]
Bill Simmons
Salt Lake's awesome, right? I'm buying Salt Lake stock.
- [123:01]
Ryan Rosillo
I am with you. I'm buying. They don't have 16th street like Denver, so that's a positive.
- [123:07]
Bill Simmons
Got rid of Sundance. I think that helps the cap.
- [123:10]
Ryan Rosillo
That's out.
- [123:11]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Sundance going to Boulder.
- [123:15]
Ryan Rosillo
Never made it.
- [123:16]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. All right. I'm. I'm happy to consider them being in.
- [123:22]
Ryan Rosillo
They should be tier. Tier 1 because I.
- [123:24]
Bill Simmons
The Will Hardy thing made me bad mad because I think he's a really good coach. And you just remove two years of like, imagine if you. Like when you came to work for us in 2018, if I was like, yo, first two years, I'm gonna need you to really just like, fuck up the first 15 minutes of your podcast because we need the downloads to be down. And then you can try and try some stuff. But I don't really want it to be good yet. But 20, 21, I really want the pod to be good. So just kind of.
- [123:55]
Ryan Rosillo
So you say, hey, we want to suppress you value.
- [123:58]
Bill Simmons
No, don't try.
- [123:59]
Ryan Rosillo
This is a terrible analogy. It's not going to work.
- [124:01]
Bill Simmons
I'm just trying. But imagine being in the. Being in the position of like, don't do your best.
- [124:08]
Ryan Rosillo
Hey, we're not.
- [124:09]
Bill Simmons
There's going to be ways to win this game. Don't use them.
- [124:12]
Ryan Rosillo
We're going to have to have you to do everything still over the phone. This whole zoom thing you're seeing on.
- [124:16]
Bill Simmons
This other show, let's move to video. Just two more years. Audio only. Well, I just think that sucks to be like, this is how I have to coach. Like, my organization doesn't want me to win. But we both agree that's what you have to do when you're Utah. You have to play it that way. Just a thing about the league, if.
- [124:37]
Ryan Rosillo
You'Re Trading for somebody, you know, that's probably a small target of, like, who gets traded for. That's a franchise changing player. That's like, I'm here and I want to stay. You're probably not going to be able to use your cap space on anybody, so you need somebody to come through, which I think this is a great organization. Whether it's ownership, Ange Xanac, Hardy, I am probably a little too. Like, I do wonder if Hardy, in a private moment with a. With a beer, with a couple friends, says, well, it looks like I'm not catching Popovich anytime soon. Right? Because all of those numbers are. When you pull up his basketball reference, it's like, that's what my winning percentage is, and that's what my record says it is. You could also argue, too, it's like, we're going to give you this. This shot at a very young age to be this coach, and maybe there's a different path you're stuck in as a second or third assistant somewhere else, and you don't even get this opportunity until seven or eight years later.
- [125:26]
Bill Simmons
The spurs coach it.
- [125:28]
Ryan Rosillo
My argument for Utah and why I want them to win the lottery is this Cooper flag and Salt Lake would be the most important piece for a franchise that needs it, considering all the challenges that they have faced historically in transactions.
- [125:45]
Bill Simmons
I'll move them up to tier four, tier one. You. You sold me. I think Washington would have the same kind of impact, though. I think he's a game changer for them. They've never had a player come in who is like an I'm going to make everyone better on this team guy in the last 40 years. Right. That. Which is what we think he is.
- [126:03]
Ryan Rosillo
You think you have a Jordan pool quote. Be like, this guy's going to be all right off the bench. Like, Twan, about Pierce, remember that Jordan.
- [126:10]
Bill Simmons
Pool is like, I can't wait to teach him everything I know. All right, next one is Brooklyn. Their number one odds are 9.9%. Top four, 37%. You know, they sabotaged year one of the Jordy era. They might have been like a 38, 30. They might have been a playing team. And they were just like, no way. So I gotta ding them for that. But, you know, they've been all over the map. Sean Marks, I guess, can just never get fired. But the. The KG trade turned out to be just a grand slam. So you almost like get rewarded for that, right? All the stuff they got in that trade, that's still going and going and going. I wouldn't be upset if they won. I. You know, there's a whole case of can Brooklyn even survive unless they had a guy like this in New York City? Like when you think about what happened with the Knicks this year, I just think Brooklyn's going to be the ugly stepchild in New York basketball forever unless they get a guy like this. So that's the case for it. And Feeney's Pizza outside Barclays. I got. I'm going to throw that in there too for karma. Great pizza.
- [127:15]
Ryan Rosillo
I think for all the same reasons that we. I don't know, Utah still has more challenges than Brooklyn would, but.
- [127:25]
Bill Simmons
Right. Because we've seen Brooklyn lure guys already.
- [127:28]
Ryan Rosillo
Right. There's nothing on this Brooklyn roster that even gets you excited to the point of like even Lowry Marketing. Yeah.
- [127:36]
Bill Simmons
Charlotte's next 14%. Number one odds. Played the game like everybody else did. New ownership. I like Charles Lee. I wonder if you get Flag. How many guys are still on this team two years from now? If you get flag over under two and a half, would you go over under two years from now?
- [128:04]
Ryan Rosillo
You'd say two and a half to.
- [128:05]
Bill Simmons
Over under two and a half. Who's on the 20, 28, 29 season roster?
- [128:11]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, it's already two with LaMelo and Miller, so.
- [128:15]
Bill Simmons
Lamelo. We sure kind of are we. Well, Miller who? I don't know.
- [128:28]
Ryan Rosillo
Miller. I don't know. It looks like he's going to be really good.
- [128:32]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, sure. I don't know. I don't trust.
- [128:35]
Ryan Rosillo
I want to say Grant Williams has already been traded. Miles Bridges is a different conversation. Grant Williams Leadership Council.
- [128:43]
Bill Simmons
Your guy Saloon. I don't know.
- [128:44]
Ryan Rosillo
Diabate saloon, Salon, whatever his name is. That's how bad this year went.
- [128:51]
Bill Simmons
Not a strong rookie year.
- [128:53]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, it's Salon.
- [128:53]
Bill Simmons
Some tough basketball reference.
- [128:56]
Ryan Rosillo
I told you I liked watching him. I didn't know if it was going to be any good or not off.
- [129:01]
Bill Simmons
I didn't sell the stock yet. But I, you know, I do have a red flag next to it. Chicago number on odds 1.8%. But I like some of the trades that they recently made. We. We're just. We're in a weird territory here because we got Toronto number one odds 7.5%. You and I have taken.
- [129:19]
Ryan Rosillo
Wait, wait. Make the case for Chicago. Isn't there something to be said of like.
- [129:26]
Bill Simmons
No, they. They're. It's pathetic that they don't spend money. Right. I don't think. I think they've spent the tax once in 15 years. But I just like some of the guys in the team. So I was thinking from a karma standpoint, I enjoy Kobe White. I like Giddy Vuch. I've enjoyed putting Flag on that team. I think would be would be fun. That's really the only thing. Zealous posters, possibly Toronto, 7.5%. You and I have not liked their moves. I the only reason they're this high is because there's four other teams that have to be lower than them and I don't really make. I can't come up with a case for Toronto.
- [130:13]
Ryan Rosillo
I have nothing to add.
- [130:14]
Bill Simmons
Okay, now we're in the bottom four. New Orleans, their number one odds are 12.5%. They've drafted really well, which we've talked about many, many times. They've made some really bad trades. They seem like they're jinxed as a franchise and as a basketball city. This would be the one city I'd be actually worried for Cooper Flag if he went there because it just seems like nothing good happens there. But the fun piece as from a karma basketball, if they did get flagged, it opens up content left and right for us. There's so many possible trades. They might be good right away. It could be like he could swing them by 20 wins potentially just because they already had a lot of talent in place. So that part's fun. But man, it just feels like they've had a lot of luck already with like they won the Zion lottery, you know, like, it's hard to say, oh man, they're due. Like they literally won one of the three hardest lotteries that we've had for what people wanted in the last 15 years. So that's the case for New Orleans, for and against.
- [131:22]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I probably would like them to get it a little bit more. I don't know if it hits a reset on the franchise. My guess is most owners wouldn't win the lottery and they'd be like, okay, cool, now let's be bad around just winning the lottery. And maybe I don't know what to believe on whether or not there's a Everybody's all on the same page about keeping Zion. I just don't know how many more years you can keep going into a season, like hoping this thing is going to work out. And even if you traded him, ended up being a star somewhere else because I think there's a history there where it's like, well, look at Baron Davis did when he left. What could happen with Chris Paul when he left. Look what happened with Anthony Davis when he left. If that's bleeding into your decision making then I don't think you are making the right decision with this. But we all realize how special Zion can be when it's out. I don't even care if I traded him and he was awesome somewhere else. I could not go back into another season having every one of our hopes tied to somebody where it feels like it just ends bad all the time. And if you win the lottery with Cooper and Trey Murphy, I would start, you know, again. Nobody, Nobody likes when the media is just sitting there telling everyone to blow it up all over again. But they might be the perfect candidate for it because they have drafted. Well, there's other players. Like, we didn't even mention Herb Jones anymore because he's been hurt. I would just try to figure out what I could do.
- [132:34]
Bill Simmons
Murray's out for most of the year.
- [132:36]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. And, you know, CJ's a nice player. There's probably still some value there. It doesn't mean you're going to have like seven guys aspiring this off season.
- [132:45]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. This next year is his. Yeah. He's an expiring heading into next season.
- [132:50]
Ryan Rosillo
Got it, Got it, Got it.
- [132:51]
Bill Simmons
I looked up the Zion contract stuff to familiarize myself with it, and I thought there was, like, partial guarantees they could let him go before July 15th and just get completely out of it, which I. I wouldn't do that.
- [133:02]
Ryan Rosillo
That's.
- [133:03]
Bill Simmons
I had forgotten that that was an option.
- [133:05]
Ryan Rosillo
No. Because Shams brought it up, remember? But when he wasn't playing, by the way, they could just go ahead. To me, that's insane. There's still. There's always another team that's thinking, if we get him with us, the ceiling version of Zion with us, that guy is not for free. I know what you're saying, but I've heard the argument before. There's no way you would just go out. Let's just.
- [133:25]
Bill Simmons
I'm not saying I would do it. I'm just saying it's in play. It's a thing that they can do.
- [133:31]
Ryan Rosillo
Okay. You're saying it's in play, but it's.
- [133:33]
Bill Simmons
You know what else is in play?
- [133:34]
Ryan Rosillo
What's that?
- [133:35]
Bill Simmons
They could trade for somebody who takes the Zion contract and immediately intends to waive the contract because this will be their way to get out of a shitload of money.
- [133:46]
Ryan Rosillo
I just don't think that he is at that point where you would want nothing or acquire him to get off of money to then waive him.
- [133:56]
Bill Simmons
You know why? You're right. Because you could do this all again next year.
- [134:00]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah.
- [134:00]
Bill Simmons
You could take. Even if you're trading for him. You could take a flyer on them knowing that. All right, if this goes badly again next year, I could just get out of it and wave them again. But I just. Everyone is so desperate to shed money. I just think it's notable that somebody makes $39 million a year who could match with anyone in a trade. You could then wave and get out of all the money, all the apron shit that comes with it. I don't. I don't. I don't think that's nothing. It's my worst fear for the Celtics.
- [134:27]
Ryan Rosillo
What? That they would trade for Zion and.
- [134:29]
Bill Simmons
Then wave them like the new owners. Like, now that I have the team, guess what? We're cutting costs. We've traded for Zion and we're waving them.
- [134:39]
Ryan Rosillo
Sounds like somebody was having some down o2 thoughts that.
- [134:42]
Bill Simmons
I think this is my fourth margarita. The Knicks started to come back. I was like, oh, my God. All right, bottom three. San Antonio third from last. Number one odds, 6.8. They won with Wemby. That's really the only reason you can't win else with the Admiral.
- [134:57]
Ryan Rosillo
Duncan Wembanyama.
- [134:59]
Bill Simmons
And then you get Cooper Flag, because.
- [135:01]
Ryan Rosillo
I know everybody was listening, like, hey, the spurs, they do it the right way.
- [135:04]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, they've had too much luck.
- [135:06]
Ryan Rosillo
No, we're good.
- [135:07]
Bill Simmons
Duncan Wemb. Stop.
- [135:08]
Ryan Rosillo
No one's going to agree with us. We're right.
- [135:11]
Bill Simmons
We're right. Which leads us to the second and last karma team, the Philadelphia 76ers. Their number one odds are 10.5%. Top four, 42% if it falls seven or lower. They're in the five spot now. Two teams jump them. OKC gets their pick. I just don't think you should be able to stumble into Cooper Flag after the summer they had last year. It's ridiculous. It's outright ridiculous. I'd be happy for Maxi. I'd be happy for McCain. But the Embiid extension, combined with the Paul George four years and. And trotting out the big three media dialogue and the title stuff and all of it, if it leads to Cooper Flag, that's outrageous. No offense to our Philly fan friends. It would be outrageous. It really would be.
- [136:04]
Ryan Rosillo
I almost want it to happen. People are going to be so pissed off. People are so mad because it was.
- [136:10]
Bill Simmons
This is how it played out.
- [136:11]
Ryan Rosillo
Right? It wasn't just that this was on the table. It's when everything was falling apart and then you were looking at their record. And then the Sixers are going to those games being like, you think you're Fucking tanking. We're fucking tanking.
- [136:24]
Bill Simmons
We introduced it to Bona.
- [136:26]
Ryan Rosillo
Oh, hey, Nets, you want to play hard in the fourth quarter?
- [136:30]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [136:30]
Ryan Rosillo
We're running ISOs for Edwards. Like, fuck you guys.
- [136:33]
Bill Simmons
They're ready to like Tanya Harding, Quentin Grimes. They were just gonna hire some fat guy to hit him on the side of the side of the leg on the bench.
- [136:40]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, Toronto kept winning these games because their defense was somehow incredible this late into the season and. Or they had that stretch. I would, I would say that, yeah. You're like, how the hell is Toronto keep winning some of these games? But Philly and I see. I think Philly, like, in a way, I, I like what they did where they're like, we're not screwing around.
- [137:03]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [137:03]
Ryan Rosillo
Even though Quentin Grimes for that, that stretch, it's like, are they going to cost them this top six protection on this thing? So we were chasing the top six protection. We're following all that stuff. Like, are they going to actually lose this pick? Like the worst case scenario of what could happen here considering how bad the season is, like on top of everything else. And guess who else has the pick. Oh, great. It's okc. What a shocker to then getting Cooper Flag. I think that'd be a lot for. For people to handle. I think people would rather the spurs with it than the 76ers.
- [137:30]
Bill Simmons
Embiid. Think of the headline. Embiid excited to take Cooper Flag under his wing. A new long ESPN feature. Last but not least. Now, it's weird because they should be last in the lottery karma rankings, but they. You could also make a case they should be first because of the fans. The Dallas Mavericks number one odds 1.8%. Top four, 8.5%. To do that Luca trade and then end up with Cooper Flag would be a moral outrage. Not even an outrage. I'd be morally outraged. My morals would be discombobulated by it. I just can't believe that's how it would work out. It would make me so mad. Like, really? You motherfuckers just got Cooper Flag after making the dumbest trade anyone else has ever seen and it worked out and you got Cooper Flag out of it. But on the other hand, for the Mavericks fans who are as traumatized and upset about a trade as any fan base I've ever seen since I've started to like sports, I'd be happy for them, but I think they have to be last.
- [138:45]
Ryan Rosillo
I feel like the fan part should prevent them from being last. Like, why are the.
- [138:50]
Bill Simmons
You go last.
- [138:50]
Ryan Rosillo
Why are the Sixers. What about San Antonio? Because at least they be rewarded for.
- [138:59]
Bill Simmons
They've done some good stuff. San Antonio, the Fox trade was good. Castle pick was good. They. They tanked. While also seeming like they cared about the season, which I think is a hard line to straddle.
- [139:15]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, but see, I, I'm. That's almost why I appreciate Daryl and the Sixers were going. You guys want to act like there's these rules of engagement shit. You guys want to have one of those operations where it's like, yeah, we're sort of invading this area, but we're kind of not because we gave it a title. Like you ever want to go through and just laugh your ass off. Look at some of the military operations titles. Just the branding of them to try to make everybody feel a little bit like nothing's even called a war anymore. And when I think about what the Sixers did, you call this whatever you want, label whatever you want. There are no rules like, we're doing this and it was the right thing to do.
- [139:56]
Bill Simmons
Nobody remember in a year.
- [139:57]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. And you know, look, whether it's that Dallas argument years ago where it felt like it was terrible, or the Doug Peterson Philadelphia Eagles thing where it made sense for the Eagles to lose that game, but because it's the national broadcast and we're seeing it happen in real time and everybody's got their phones out and there's no other games on, distract us from it, then it becomes this, like, act against humanity. And I, I don't like the, like. I know what you're saying. Where the spurs did it in the decent way. Right. Utah wasn't perhaps as decent. Yeah. You know, again, we're keep using that word that everybody loves about ethical tanking or ethical hoops. I don't know. That just feels. That feels nasty to have Dallas last. But I know you're thinking about Nico and maybe there was some after Luca the Lakers lost in five games. The people in the media that suggested somehow we needed to revisit the Nico Harrison conversation. This is like watching a 4 by 100 relay and seeing the first handoff and going, well, that's over. This is not. When you're evaluating this. And by the way, again, it has nothing to do with what the Lakers or Luka didn't do in the playoffs this year. Has everything to do with the execution of this historically bad trade. So even if it turns out in five years, like Lucas heard and like, hey, was Nico right? The process will forever be wrong. And when that team gets eliminated, when.
- [141:15]
Bill Simmons
Reeves gets traded this summer and he will get traded and the stuff that they get back for him is going to make it seem even worse that they didn't get him in the. The trade.
- [141:28]
Ryan Rosillo
I know, I know. It's a TV show and this is somebody who's done this for a long time. You know what's happening in those pre show meetings? Like, hey, do we need to revisit the Nico conversation? It's like, I don't know, what's the rest of the rundown look like? Like, we're kind of like, you know, there's no football stuff. It's like, all right, you know, maybe we'll throw it in the D's.
- [141:42]
Bill Simmons
I, I can do two more minutes on Nico. Yeah, just set me up and.
- [141:46]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, and then sometimes that itself is the segment. Ask the question and then you just shoot down the entire idea. But anyone that really is paying attention again, and I shouldn't even phrase it that way, sane people would go, this is not a conversation that we can have right now because of an elimination in one year of the playoffs. So go ahead.
- [142:04]
Bill Simmons
We have to go.
- [142:05]
Ryan Rosillo
Yes.
- [142:06]
Bill Simmons
So I always grab a dream team cup when I do the pod.
- [142:09]
Ryan Rosillo
I love that you do that.
- [142:10]
Bill Simmons
I didn't notice that I grabbed John Stockton. I just grabbed one. Does it mean anything that I grabbed John Stockton for the lottery?
- [142:20]
Ryan Rosillo
12 Cooper.
- [142:22]
Bill Simmons
I had 12 choices of dream team cups, I guess Malone or Stockton. So it was a one in six chance. I was grabbing a Utah thing, which is basically the exact same odds that they have in the lottery. So I grab a John Stockton. Don't think about it. We'll see tomorrow night if it's a coincidence. All right, Priscilla, we're going to watch this game. We're going to for the podcast. We're going to put at the very top of the podcast our thoughts on the Cleveland game that we're about to watch. We'll tape a little stuff at the top, but I enjoyed myself as usual. Good to see you, Rossillo.
- [142:54]
Ryan Rosillo
See you in a bit.
- [142:55]
Bill Simmons
All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Rosillo and Eduardo and Gahao. Don't forget, I am coming back tomorrow night with another podcast, rewatchables push till Tuesday. You still have an extra day to watch Death Wish, which is quite a movie, quite a 70s movie. And I will see you in 24. Must be 21 plus in President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + in President D.C. gambling problem. Call 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com call 1-887-89-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplianma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-87-7-8, Hope NY or text hopeny in New York.