← The Bill Simmons Podcast
The Bill Simmons Podcast
The Grizzlies’ Future, the Devers Trade, NBA Draft Takes, and a Kon Knueppel Interview | With Chris Vernon, Joe House, and Kevin Hench
02:28:27
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- [00:00]
Bill Simmons
This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra, the official beer partner of the NBA. What do I love about the NBA championship? Well, first of all, I love when the Celtics win, but that's not happening this year. But you know what I really love? The drama, the pressure. Everything goes to the highest level. Guys are injured, guys are banged up, guys are hungry. It just brings out the best of everything. And Michelob Ultra is helping you celebrate like a champion with a chance to win your own limited edition championship bottle, just like those gifted to the NBA players during the championship parade. Enter now at michelobaltra.com Courtside Champs bottles Michelob Ultra Courtside Victor Solomon Champs Bottle Sweepstakes. No purchase necessary. Open to US residents 21/ends June 22, 2025. See Official Rules@michelobucher.com Rules for free entry, prizes and details. Message and data rates may apply. Void where prohibited. The Bill Simmons podcast is presented by the Ringer Podcast Network where avenue Rewatchables that is also going up simultaneously with this podcast. I guess we did Marathon man as part of New York City month and next week. Just, just be ready. You have, I think, six days to watch it. Die Hard with a Vengeance will be the next one. And I think that's our 400th episode for the rewatchables. We don't celebrate episodes, we celebrate movies. Getting closer and closer to the 400th movie. Anyway, marathon man is up. You can watch on The Ringer Movies YouTube channel as well. This is my third podcast of the week. It's mid June, lot of stuff going on. You know, Raphael Devers got traded by the Red Sox. I have con knipple coming up later who is going to looks like going to be in the top five of the lottery. So I wanted to talk to him. There's reasons for that, which we'll get into. And then at the top, Chris Vernon and I were arguing about the Desmond Bain trade for two days and we finally decided to have it on the podcast. We brought in Joe House, who has a pretty amazing golf story to start off. And we talked about the Memphis trade. Orlando, we talked about golf and a really weird US Open. We talked about the NBA drafts, some of the odds that are happening, and then some of the perceptions of the city of Memphis, which Vernon was very passionate about because that was in the news this week. So a lot coming up here. Third podcast of the week. First, we'll take a break and then Pearl Jam. This episode is presented by State Farm. It's no secret that great teams need great Teammates. I've been saying this for years. And when it comes to insurance, State Farm is there to help you fight the right coverage for your home, car and more. Whether you need an in person or digital assist, they're ready. When Life hits you with a full court press, get a game plan that helps fit your life. Talk to State Farm today. State Farm with the assist coverage options that are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. All right, taping this close to dinner time. Chris Vernon is here. Joe House is here. And this is the fourth pot of the week, or it's gonna be, because I had another one Thursday night. But we. We were all arguing on text. We. We have other guys. There's just too much sports going on. It's like, fuck it. Let's just keep doing podcasts. Verna was scolding me about my opinions on the Desmond Bain trade. Cause he's in Memphis. We're making fun of House cause he passed out on a golf course. What happened to you last week, House? Tell me what happened to you last week.
- [03:56]
Joe House
I didn't pass out on the golf course. It was the hottest day of the year here in the DMV, Washington, D.C. and you add in the humidity, and it was a long round. It was, you know, my. My little club here in the neck of the woods, and. And we were out there, and. And I was, you know, enjoying a couple gentlemen's beverages, as one might with the. With his. With his buddies, with his pals, and came off the golf course. Okay with. I was tired and I need a shower and everything. Drove myself home. No problem. I meet my family for dinner, and I sit down and what do I do? Order another cerveza. Of course. Got to be a Mexican restaurant. And I'm eating my. My. My shrimp taco salad. And the next thing you know, I'm all like, ah, man, I feel a little. Not feeling great right now.
- [04:40]
Bill Simmons
You were gonna have, like, a stroke or a heart attack.
- [04:42]
Joe House
No, no, no, no, no. It was. It was like a little fear. Like a fainting spell. Like a little spell. I was having a spell. And then I was like, I should get up and try and get some fresh air. Let me get up out of this chair. And I go like this. I'm on the video. The boys can see it. And I like this. And I'm back down. And then I look up, and Mama's like, bruh, we are calling an ambulance. Don't you move. Don't move. Because you.
- [05:06]
Bill Simmons
You.
- [05:06]
Joe House
You close your eyes there for about 10 seconds. And I was like, I'm fine. I'm fine. Let me get up and walk home. Just help me get to the car. I'm fine. Like, I didn't really lose consciousness. And I was lucid enough to have a conversation. And then they brought all the responders they had to clear the poor people trying to have their burritos on the patio. It was a nice evening when the.
- [05:28]
Bill Simmons
Sunset golfer was dropping dead in the course in the restaurant.
- [05:33]
Joe House
It was fine. They hooked me up. All I needed was the IV they put me in the thing that gave me some iv. I. Oh, hey, can I go home now, please?
- [05:41]
Bill Simmons
Verno, Is this drunk House? Dehydrated House? What version of House is this?
- [05:46]
Chris Vernon
I have. I have so many questions. So wait, is this at the restaurant?
- [05:50]
Joe House
This restaurant? This was like two hours after I was done playing golf.
- [05:54]
Chris Vernon
Is your kid with you?
- [05:56]
Joe House
Yeah, that was. He got upset.
- [06:01]
Chris Vernon
This is this.
- [06:02]
Joe House
Is this to have a great time on the golf course? I will say this.
- [06:07]
Chris Vernon
I do.
- [06:07]
Joe House
I did start taking a medicine that has the effect of reducing you liquid, you know, whatever, a diuretic. And that's a natural dehydrated. Natural dehydration thing. And I had worked out in the morning, and I hadn't really hydrated from the workout. And then I went to play golf, and I didn't really. I would say I did the opposite of hydrate while I was playing golf.
- [06:29]
Chris Vernon
Did you get admitted to the hospital? Like, were you mean by admitted?
- [06:32]
Joe House
I mean I went to the error.
- [06:34]
Chris Vernon
You did. You went to the. How long did it take you to get a nurse?
- [06:38]
Joe House
I saw that nurse. How long? No time. I was on a thing. They rolled me right in. Yeah. Because I was in it.
- [06:46]
Bill Simmons
So it sounds like 1 IV here.
- [06:49]
Joe House
And 1 IV here. Yeah, I had, but I was like, oh, they gave me eight bags. I was there for five hours. I saw the doc's like. I was like, what are my restrictions? What I should I be worried about? You can go live your life, son.
- [07:04]
Bill Simmons
Go.
- [07:04]
Joe House
Go do your best thing. How about go, don't drink a whole bunch of vodka seltzers out on the golf course without mixing in the water here and there?
- [07:12]
Chris Vernon
What did you shoot?
- [07:14]
Joe House
I actually played great advertising. My usual severe dehydration, my mid-80s kind of thing, without my ball off the tee. Great T ball all day long.
- [07:27]
Bill Simmons
It does get crazy hot in the dmv, not to defend the humidity.
- [07:31]
Joe House
And I had not had anything to eat or drink over the course of the day. I'm a big dummy. What can I Say it was really that medication that I didn't understand the impact of it.
- [07:40]
Bill Simmons
Wow. He's like, look, it's a new deal psa.
- [07:42]
Joe House
So electrolytes. I need electrolytes.
- [07:45]
Chris Vernon
Yeah, psa. Bill, don't mix pills and alcohol. Like, we all needed that psa.
- [07:52]
Joe House
The pills are already part of the program. I didn't mix it. I just didn't understand the impact of it. I. It was. I only been taking them for a couple months.
- [07:59]
Bill Simmons
Sounds like I need to get rid of parent corner and just add old corner.
- [08:03]
Joe House
Old man corner.
- [08:04]
Chris Vernon
Yeah.
- [08:04]
Joe House
They were not boner pills, for the record. Not that I'm against those. I'm just telling you that's not the pill that caused the problem. That was not that in this instance.
- [08:14]
Bill Simmons
Hey, when, when you come out here at the end of August, let's just get colonoscopies together. Let's really. Let's. Let's go. Let's go full tail. Let's embrace our one.
- [08:22]
Joe House
I'll get another. I'm happy to get as many as you want. If you haven't got yours yet, we'll do it. I'm happy.
- [08:28]
Bill Simmons
Verno had his version of a colonoscopy in the form of they traded the third best player of the Grizzlies for four picks at a swap, which he's now defending as like the greatest. This is like the new version of the Paul George Kawhi trade. You're just on every ringer podcast.
- [08:43]
Chris Vernon
No, I did not do that. What I did do was defend that this is if any other team makes this trade. Everybody loves this trade. That's the way this goes, right? If you get that kind of value for a non all star player, everybody loves this trade. Especially one, by the way, a non all star player that's on a full on max, $200 million contract who has four years left of that, right? If that's not good enough for your team with what you have, then in if, if, if I would have told anybody two weeks ago that, that, that they are going to trade Desmond Bain and that that's the level of return that they will get from Desmond Bane. Nobody would have believed it. But then when it happens, it's like, wow, this is going to be great for Orlando, which I agree. I think it's going to be great for Orlando. Right? But if you are getting that Phoenix pick next year, you're getting the 16th pick in next Wednesday's draft. The 16th pick, which is not a bad pick.
- [09:52]
Bill Simmons
Congratulations.
- [09:54]
Chris Vernon
There's a lot of players last year's 16th pick was Jared McCain two, three years ago it was Alper and Shen Goon. So just don't tell me that you can't get a good player with 16. You got to hit it. You have to hit it. But that's not a bad. That's. That's a good range for the draft to be in next year's Phoenix pick. Who knows what that can be?
- [10:17]
Bill Simmons
Wasn't that. That's the, that's the worst one of a Phoenix Washington swap, right? So it'll be the. Whatever is a little worse.
- [10:24]
Chris Vernon
You get that one, it'll be Phoenix's because Washington's is, I think, eight protected. I think it's protected through eight. But. So it will be. It will be Phoenix's pick.
- [10:33]
Bill Simmons
Okay.
- [10:33]
Chris Vernon
And who knows where they're going? And then I understand what you're saying about like, well, and they're going to be good. So those picks won't be good. But all I would tell you is if there's anything we have Learned in the NBA, it's that we never, ever know. Two years ago, the Grizzlies won 56 games, then they won 51, then they had a lottery pick where they took Zach Edy last year. No one would have. We never thought we were going to be having a lottery party ever again, right? And then it happens. And to wit, this year, this year, the number one pick in the draft is a team we watched a year ago in the NBA finals. The number three pick in the draft is the Philadelphia 76ers, who got Paul George last offseason. So all I would say is, and look, I expect Orlando has got a great young core. I think they should be very good. But all I would tell you is you never know. And those assets are real and you use those assets. If the Grizzlies don't take the assets that they just got from Desmond Bain and then their cap room and everything else they have and don't improve their roster greatly, then it's a failure. Right? But this is, in my opinion, step one of what is going to be an off season where they build out around John Morant And Jaren Jackson Jr. Now, if you want to argue that that's a stupid thing to do, that's fine. I disagree with that. I think it's a smart thing to do because you put those guys with a myriad of different lineups in the past, and every time they've won, every time when they've been healthy, they have won. And in fact, they were two games separated from being the 3 seed this year. So what if Memphis would have been the 3 seed this year, then what then would people be talking about possibly, oh, is this blowing it up? Oh, they shouldn't build around these guys. Oh, like two games. And by the way, from February 15th on, the season went to absolute hell and they fired their coach.
- [12:46]
Bill Simmons
Right, True.
- [12:47]
Chris Vernon
So I mean, I would just say. And, and the other thing is Desmond Bane has gotten more love in the last three days that Desmond Bane has gotten in five years. Five years. He's. I've been, I've been watching him every night, rooting for him every night. I love Desmond Bane. But people have talked about Desmond Bane more in a loving and glowing way since he got traded from Memphis than they ever did when he was playing in Memphis. And the reason I attacked you is because you and Ryan were having your little Memphis hatred party that you guys have.
- [13:24]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [13:24]
Chris Vernon
And well, he hates. He hate.
- [13:27]
Bill Simmons
He.
- [13:27]
Chris Vernon
He. You don't like Jaren. He doesn't like Ja. And Desmond Bain suddenly became a guy. You said, I was just at the NBA finals and I watched Desmond or I watched those games. And Desmond Bain's the kind of guy that could play 35 minutes in that game.
- [13:43]
Bill Simmons
I stand by it.
- [13:44]
Chris Vernon
We played Oakley, Oklahoma City. We played him. Like that happened. We did play him. And he was 20 for 72 and 2 and 7 for 32 from 3 and couldn't dribble against any of them. So we played that team, the team that's like the, the mountain, like the one that you have to climb in, as we think in the Western Conference. Like we played them. And he was, I mean, he was pitiful.
- [14:14]
Bill Simmons
He passed out at a Mexican restaurant. Like House.
- [14:15]
Chris Vernon
He passed out in a Mexican restaurant.
- [14:17]
Joe House
He needed an iv.
- [14:18]
Bill Simmons
Well, I would just remind you that Jaren Jackson was also horrendous in that series and shot 37% at 20 rebounds total in four games. So if we're going to. I, I think everybody looks bad against okc. That's how I judge my personnel moves. House, what was your take when you heard about the trade?
- [14:36]
Joe House
I loved it for Orlando, obviously. And I think that is the main reason for why the glow up of Bane is. Is occurring. It's like in this context where it's like, oh, wow, that's a perfect fit for Orlando. This guy's going to fit in seamlessly. And you know, it's, it's all the positive aspects of, of Bane. And so I think Berno, that's, that's the love that, that, that you're seeing. It's like put him in that context. Okay, we get it.
- [15:04]
Chris Vernon
But right Pope spot one of those dreadful Fox shows in the morning and they had a guy on there and he's like, oh, Bane, it's a perfect three and D guy. And now this gives Orlando one of the best defensive backcours. And I'm like, what? It's like saying you added C.J. mcCollum and you. Right. Like that was the Memphis problem, right? Is that you had. You basically had the new age version of Lillard and McCallum where you have two diminutive guards, both outstanding players. Right. But it's really hard to build like to. Unless you are. And especially when they all start getting paid. Like every team's going to go through this where it's like, where it's time to pay up for the guys and it's like, man, those three have to be good enough or else. Because you're not going to have good enough players on the rest of the roster. Like you have to hit everything well.
- [15:59]
Bill Simmons
Orlando 4. That's why.
- [16:02]
Joe House
But I like it for Memphis because yes, it creates a flexibility to do Triple J in a long term kind of deal.
- [16:10]
Bill Simmons
Slack him down.
- [16:11]
Joe House
I, I'm a Triple J fan.
- [16:14]
Bill Simmons
Well, you never, you didn't rebound when you played pickup.
- [16:17]
Chris Vernon
Also, also Bill, he is, he's been a defensive player of the year. But also, thank you to you. No, thank you to you and all of your voting brethren. You just enabled Memphis to be able to really build out a roster.
- [16:33]
Bill Simmons
He didn't get the O N B A.
- [16:34]
Chris Vernon
It's $200 million difference. Literally $200 million.
- [16:40]
Joe House
That's amazing. That's amazing.
- [16:43]
Chris Vernon
He would have been eligible for a five year, $345 million contract if he would have made third team all NBA. I think he missed it by one vote. So thank you to you. Thank you to you.
- [16:58]
Bill Simmons
Is that true? This is like Wind Horse. I don't want to know any of this.
- [17:03]
Chris Vernon
I know.
- [17:04]
Bill Simmons
I don't want to know like what the ramifications are. I don't want that power.
- [17:07]
Chris Vernon
He, he now like they can renegotiate this next year. He's on the books for 23. They can renegotiate that year. But now instead of his eligible extension now becomes 4 years 147 million instead of 5 years 345 million.
- [17:26]
Joe House
That's pretty big.
- [17:27]
Bill Simmons
So obviously, obviously, if I'm paying him four years 147, I feel great about that. If I'm paying him five years 300, I don't feel great about that at all. House, good deal.
- [17:39]
Joe House
And here's the aspect of it that I like for Memphis. Jalen Wells is a dude. And what Desmond Bain moving on means is we're going to see a lot of Jalen Wells. Like I think his come up is going to like the replacement level that he's going to be able to put on the table and they are guaranteed a lottery pick. So it's a trade in my estimation, where you're freeing up Jalen Wells to become the player that he can become and you have a guaranteed lottery pick. All those other picks, that's like currency for more deals that Kleiman is going to be wheeling the dealing as he, as he does. But really, here's why the trade makes sense for Memphis lottery pick next year. Jalen Wells, you know, with a more prominent role. That's why it makes sense to me.
- [18:22]
Chris Vernon
They also are going to go get that wing. You know that that has been their search, right? They tried to get OG and Anobi, they tried to get Mikel Bridges, they tried to get last year. They literally were at the finish line with Dorian Finney Smith, who would have been amazing for their team. And of course, Brooklyn leaks the trade, which was Canard and Conchar and a pick, and then gets a better deal from the Lakers, right? So they leaked out the trade that was already set, that that was ready to go down and then canvassed the area and got what they thought was a better deal from the Lakers. Okay, so if we're following this, right, whether it was Mikel Bridges, whether it was OG, an obi, they obviously, you know, kicked the tires on Jimmy Butler. And Jimmy Butler went to literally anybody that had an opportunity to say, I don't want to go to Memphis and said that on air. Whether it was Mark Spears, whether it was on and on, right? They kicked the tires on Durant, right? And that couldn't happen last year. Like they made an offer for Durant. So you know that they look at it and they go, we have John Morant, we have Jared Jackson Jr. We need a wing player to go along with.
- [19:40]
Bill Simmons
Can they trade back for Desmond Bain?
- [19:42]
Chris Vernon
Right? Stop.
- [19:44]
Bill Simmons
They need a wing like Desmond Bain. It sounds like they get a six, five guy who's 40%, three point shooter, 20 a game and five a game.
- [19:53]
Chris Vernon
Okay, well, if we still had Desmond Bain, you'd. You'd have the under for the Grizzlies next year. So you didn't think it was good enough.
- [20:00]
Bill Simmons
40 to 50 games a year, that's why I would have the under. Your best guy doesn't play.
- [20:05]
Chris Vernon
He. I mean, he played 50 this past year and then.
- [20:08]
Bill Simmons
Do you want to go through his games per year? Look, we know 2007, 20, 22, 57, 20, 23, 61, 20, 24, 9, 20, 25, 50.
- [20:21]
Chris Vernon
Hey, hold on.
- [20:22]
Bill Simmons
Your best guy doesn't play?
- [20:23]
Chris Vernon
No, no. 61 would have been a lot more if he wouldn't have gotten suspended for.
- [20:27]
Bill Simmons
I'm just saying.
- [20:29]
Chris Vernon
I mean, that wasn't.
- [20:30]
Bill Simmons
He's never played 68 games in a season. Been in the league six fucking years. Yeah, like at some point you are who you are.
- [20:37]
Chris Vernon
But when he does, this is what I would argue, when he does, he is absolutely awesome. And they win. This is not lamelo. This is not Zion. This is not other guys that get thrown in that same mix. When he plays, they win at an extremely high rate and he performs at an insanely high level.
- [21:01]
Bill Simmons
All right, would you. House, are you worried about either of these numbers? 3 point shooting the last 3 years for him, 30.7, 27.5, 30.9. Free throw attempts by year, 8.1, 7.1, 6.4. So I have somebody getting less to the line who still can't shoot threes, who any good defense knows that he's just going to go flying to the rim and do the thing where he jumps in the air and double clutches. Like, I just haven't seen him improve as an offensive player. Now, I understand the success rate thing, but if you're telling me you're building around a star scorer who doesn't play all the time and a star big man who does a rebound, I just don't know what your ceiling is. How so? You'd be the tiebreaker.
- [21:46]
Chris Vernon
Then how are they good? Just tell me, how are they good?
- [21:49]
Bill Simmons
I don't know. How were they good? You tell me, you were there. No, they were 40, 34 last year.
- [21:55]
Chris Vernon
So how. They don't have any good players. They don't have anybody that anybody likes except Desmond Bain, who just got traded. Evidently everybody loves Desmond Bain.
- [22:04]
Con Canippo
Now.
- [22:05]
Chris Vernon
It is crazy.
- [22:06]
Joe House
The reason that they were good is because they ran a great offense. They are a tremendous three point shooting team with a bunch of guys that nobody's heard of. Good depth too, at every position.
- [22:17]
Chris Vernon
They don't really have good depth.
- [22:19]
Bill Simmons
But bringing in Scottie Pippen and Canard.
- [22:25]
Chris Vernon
They started two rookies like last year, but last year they won 48 games. Right? They won 48 games. They, they. John Morant played 50 games. They got literally zero. Zero. Less than zero out of Marcus. Smart negative return on the smart deal. Right. That was a bad deal that they paid for. Okay? And they started the 39th pick and the ninth pick in a, by all accounts, horrendous draft and somehow won 48 games. So somebody is good is what I'm saying. Somebody's good.
- [23:00]
Joe House
You know who else is good? Taylor Jenkins.
- [23:04]
Chris Vernon
You want him to be the Knicks coach?
- [23:05]
Bill Simmons
No, that was.
- [23:06]
Joe House
I don't.
- [23:06]
Bill Simmons
That was another one. Every time somebody leaves town, Verno is kicking them hard in the butt on their way out.
- [23:12]
Chris Vernon
That's not true. I love these guys. I love Taylor Jenkins. I love Desmond Bain.
- [23:16]
Bill Simmons
So why'd you fire him? You just told me you overachieved.
- [23:19]
Chris Vernon
Because here's the deal with Taylor Jenkins once. I don't understand what all took place. But, like, they brought in. They brought. They brought in a bunch of. Like after the last season, they brought in a bunch of assistant coaches. They installed this new offense. John Morant hated it. Desmond Bain hated it. Like, it, interestingly enough, like, it did not accentuate the talents of these guys. So, I mean, they could have won even more. And then you. The defense went to absolute hell and you never beat anybody good. All of those 48 wins were generally against bad teams, under 500 teams or somebody.
- [24:01]
Bill Simmons
And so best guy was hurt that time. They play them.
- [24:04]
Chris Vernon
Yeah. And then your second part of your schedule, right, the second part of the schedule, it got hard and they were losing all the time. And they went from the two seed all the way down to the play in right where they're at the eight seed. And you guys know as well as I do, right, the players aren't going to get blamed. Right. And now, I mean, look, that obviously there is at least they're making a move and they're saying it's not good enough, roster wise. Right.
- [24:29]
Bill Simmons
They wait. But this is what. This is where I push back and we can let House be the tiebreaker. I'm good with the Desmond Bain trade. If you keep going now and you just completely blow it up, which is what you said you don't want to do. I would trade Jaren Jackson next.
- [24:46]
Kevin Hench
I would.
- [24:46]
Bill Simmons
What? What. What are. Now where are you going? To the west. Where are you going?
- [24:51]
Chris Vernon
Where. What planet am I on where blowing it up is a smart way to build your basketball team.
- [24:57]
Joe House
Right?
- [24:58]
Chris Vernon
Now we just got done talking about how the number one pick, Cooper Flag is going to play in Dallas and Dylan Harper is going to play in San Antonio and Ace Bailey or con Canymple or whoever is going to be playing in Philadelphia. Okay. Ask Utah how good it is to blow it up. Ask New Orleans how good it is to blow it up. Hey, do you think Utah is in a good spot right now?
- [25:23]
Bill Simmons
Bill, do you think Memphis is in a good spot right now?
- [25:26]
Chris Vernon
They were just two games away from the three seed.
- [25:31]
Bill Simmons
All right.
- [25:31]
Chris Vernon
They're not 20 games away.
- [25:34]
Bill Simmons
They're two house. What do you think the finals odds are for Memphis on FanDuel for next year to win the title?
- [25:41]
Chris Vernon
Too low.
- [25:44]
Joe House
To win the title?
- [25:45]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [25:46]
Joe House
60 to 1. 65.
- [25:48]
Bill Simmons
110 to 1 on Fandor.
- [25:50]
Joe House
Wow, that's disrespectful.
- [25:52]
Bill Simmons
It's like we're too.
- [25:54]
Chris Vernon
I hope we trade for Jalen Brown. I really do. That would just send you into an absolute tizzy.
- [26:00]
Bill Simmons
What's the trade? Make us an offer. What is it?
- [26:02]
Chris Vernon
We will. We might, we might. You never know.
- [26:05]
Bill Simmons
Well, that's the thing. If you're telling me you're going to take all these assets plus Gigi Jackson and some of. Some of these dudes, you have that, some stealth assets.
- [26:13]
Chris Vernon
They will.
- [26:13]
Bill Simmons
And you go all in on somebody, yes, it might make more sense to me. But House, you. You still haven't really weighed in on whether you would want to build around Ja Morant after what we've seen the last three, four years.
- [26:24]
Joe House
It's not just Jaw, though. It's JA and Triple J. It has to be a package deal because you're not going to get 60 games out of Ja. You're just not. And the thing. It better be a point of emphasis. We better see him shoot the three with some improved efficiency this upcoming season. Having said all of that, like, if you sit down and look at the Grizzlies offensive numbers from last year, it's incredible. They had the second. They were number two in scoring offense. They were in the top three in offensive rebounds. They were in the top 10 or 11 and three points like they were. It was a badass offense. And you look at that roster and say, well, where was that coming from? Who was, who was doing all of that scoring? Ja only played 50 games. Well, it's, it's. It's all these dudes that, that, you know, Verno can rattle off that are, that are effective and they had that offense that maybe there was this tension in, in the, in the coaching room between, you know, the scheme and what the players wanted to play. But the proof is in the pudding. Like they, their, their problem was, was exactly what Verno said they didn't play. Any defense from February until the end of the season, no defense. Was.
- [27:29]
Bill Simmons
You think Bane's defense? Overrated. Properly rated. Underrated. Where is it?
- [27:33]
Chris Vernon
It's. It's not even rated. He's not a. He's not a defensive stalwart. I mean he's another guy. He's much like, like if you're watching these finals, I mean you see what Jayla Williams did to. Is doing Denise Smith right now. A guy that we liked, right?
- [27:49]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [27:49]
Chris Vernon
The guy that looked good as a big time athlete with size and length against like Jalen Brunson. He's in a world of shit right now, right. I mean they are just finding him constantly and so he's not that level of defender. And so again he's. That's not. He is he. I deserve. Bain can be. I don't want to go too far on this. Right. But there's going to be a world where Steph Curry is no longer in the league and Desmond Baines right there at the very top of the best shooters in the league list.
- [28:25]
Bill Simmons
Wow.
- [28:25]
Chris Vernon
That's true. He is a great like not good, great shooter. Great.
- [28:33]
Bill Simmons
And Orlando needed.
- [28:35]
Chris Vernon
Yes. Just what Orlando now they do need something, you know, if they, if they can generate the, the looks for him, you know, he is. I don't want him doing a ton of dribbling, right. I want him to be able to play shooting guard. And he ran a lot of Grizzlies offense last year and you know, he. It's kind of like when you guys would watch Jaylen Brown, right? The less dribbling the better, right? Like I don't want. And so I want him playing shooting guard, right? And I don't want him playing point guard. I don't want him handling the ball on at a high level.
- [29:12]
Bill Simmons
Has you guys talked about this on Ringer Gambling show about the Orlando title odds for next year, which probably are not the time to do it. You want to wait for other people in the east to make moves and then do it. And I don't think they're going to make the finals next year. But I also don't know what the Fs going to happen in the east. You know, like I had Doc Rivers on last night. If I have Giannis on my team, I don't even care who else is on the team. I'm like, I have a puncher's chance. Who the fuck knows? Do you think Orlando. What, what, what's left for them to do?
- [29:43]
Chris Vernon
How about win a playoff series once?
- [29:45]
Bill Simmons
Well, that would help.
- [29:46]
Chris Vernon
Okay. Because I mean before we talk about.
- [29:49]
Bill Simmons
Finals, but I do that if they hadn't had all the injuries last year, I do think there's a world where they won 50 plus games and would have been an absolute bitch in the playoffs. I don't know if that how many rounds they would have won. But they had the year from hell last year and they. Suggs was a huge part of what they did.
- [30:05]
Chris Vernon
I agree.
- [30:05]
Bill Simmons
You know and they had.
- [30:06]
Chris Vernon
And they had every oblique injury.
- [30:09]
Bill Simmons
Those guys both had the same injury. Like that was nuts how that played out. So you know, I think that a healthy version of that team Indiana is like Jesus, they're like going to be walking dead by the end of this finals with the amount of playoff games They've played playing 100 plus game season at this pace. So you guys are barely going to make it.
- [30:29]
Chris Vernon
The reason they were extremely good, right? They I heard Zach Lowe saying with Goldsberry that clip that they haven't had a top 20 offense in 13 years. I mean that was the most shocking stat I think I've ever heard of my life. Like how top 20. There's only 30 teams in the league, right. So they haven't had. So they did it by defense, right. They were a great like sensational defensive team and obviously a huge part of that is. And Suggs went out was Katavius Caldwell Pope who you've. You've already put in the grave. Cause I heard you guys acted like that was a total non asset.
- [31:10]
Bill Simmons
No, listen, you have to face the facts of this. You got four picks and a swap for Bane. One of those picks was to take Caldwell Pope's contract away from Orlando because it was a sunk cost for them because that's how bad he was. And you can ask any Orlando fan who had to watch them last year that was like the lightning rod for the whole season was how bad he was. Now I don't know if he's going to be bad again.
- [31:33]
Chris Vernon
Can we agree it's a horrendous team to be a corner three specialist on like it's a world of difference. This guy went from winning a title with LeBron and winning a title with Jokic to a team that does creates no open shots for anybody.
- [31:46]
Bill Simmons
You could say he was playing with LeBron and Y and that's why he looked as good as maybe he did as a role player. Now you take him away from that.
- [31:53]
Chris Vernon
And it's not and and now he's playing with John Morant who generates more corner threes than anybody and more DMPs.
- [32:04]
Joe House
How dare you put him up against Z.
- [32:07]
Bill Simmons
What's it like to go to work? And is that like the first question you ask after you say to everybody, hey, how are you? Is Je. Is job playing? Is that the second question?
- [32:16]
Chris Vernon
It is annoying. There's no way around it.
- [32:18]
Bill Simmons
No, he's playing. Oh, good.
- [32:20]
Chris Vernon
There's going to come a day where it all comes together and he's healthy. I know it.
- [32:24]
Bill Simmons
I know it well, when guys hit their late twenties sometimes happens. We got to take one break and then we're going to keep going. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. During the season, every baseball team plays 162 games. It's a true test of endurance. It's not enough to have a hot month or two. You need sustained dominance throughout. Well, the same is true for your small business. It's not enough to have a great Q2 or even a great year. You want year over year growth that starts with better hires that'll be there for the long haul. To find Those hires, use LinkedIn. LinkedIn has strong hiring data and insights that you won't find anywhere else to help pair you with the best candidates. From unique skills and interests to the connections you have in common. Based on LinkedIn data, 72% of small businesses say that LinkedIn helps them find high quality talent. LinkedIn also lets you go beyond people who are actively applying. In a given week, 171 million LinkedIn members aren't actively seeking jobs, but they are open to new opportunities. That's a big pool to miss out on. If you're not hiring with LinkedIn. Find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com Simmons that's LinkedIn.com Simmons to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by Altra Running. Every pair of Altra shoes has a roomy toe box and zero to low drop which lets your toes spread and keeps your foot in a more natural position. All in the name of comfort and performance. With a variety of styles. There's a shoe for everyone. It's comfort you have to feel to believe. Try Altra for yourself with a free 30 day trial and free shipping at Altra with running. Hey, both of you love golf.
- [34:03]
Joe House
We do.
- [34:04]
Bill Simmons
Open just came and went. Yep. And the most exciting part of it for casual fans like us was when they showed the 2008 US Open. Tiger woods and Rocco Media eight. I was fucking riveted. Okay? Just, I mean, the perfect storm. Literally bad weather, a really hard course, House you talked about it on fairway rolling, and we end up with just an absolute bizarre carnage. Just the way it plays out. This is the second most important golf tournament of the year, and nobody is, you know, there's just no conversation about it after. I don't know, is this just an aberration or a house? Is this a bad sign for golf? What is this?
- [34:43]
Joe House
No, no, no, no, no. This is, you know, it is partly the effect of that golf course, that venue, where it's easy for the usga, the governing body that's responsible for the US Open, to set a goal of par as being the outcome, right?
- [35:04]
Bill Simmons
And it's kind of enjoy. I don't mind that, like, -3 is going to be the best score in four days, basically, the way the weather.
- [35:13]
Joe House
Kind of interrupted things and the impact of the weather over the course of the four days it did have. You know, they're playing out of the rough. They turn out to be wet rough. There was water on the golf course for the last round. It introduced some uncertainty where some guys were going to get lucky breaks and some guys were going to get unlucky breaks. And so that's how you get a leaderboard where folks haven't heard of a lot of the players. And then, you know, we did the whole thing was saved by the last, you know, five holes because JJ Spawn went out and won the golf tournament. He birdied the last two holes, and he played the back nine and two under par. He went out and shot. No, he shot three under par on the back nine. He went 40 on the front and 32 on the back to win the US Open. That's. That's pretty damn good. And he's. He's like your classic kind of grinder guy, so very relatable. All the stories that have come out afterwards. Awesome, dude. I'm. She's doing a great job on the interview circuit now, but we were deprived of, like, the very best guys in the world coming down the stretch in the hunt. And I think that's.
- [36:15]
Bill Simmons
We had on Thursday when we had all those names, and it was like, oh, here we go. Had an exciting moment with his dad, though.
- [36:23]
Chris Vernon
First of all, it's all a reflection of who won it, right? People just don't know JJ Spawn, right? This happened a few years ago. I worked that the U.S. open, the year it was at LACC, Wyndham Clark won, and it was like, okay. Like, everybody was hoping Rory was gonna take it down at the end of that. Didn't happen. And so, because Wyndham Clark's not exactly a household name or anything. At that time, it was kind of the same kind of deal with this JJ spawn thing. It's like a cool story, but it appeals to the niche golf audience and not some huge audience. That being said, my poor dad. My dad. This is on Father's Day, no less. My dad calls me on Sunday afternoon and I answered the phone and he rarely will call because he can't figure out how to use his cell phone. And I have to go down and usually it's like, can you come fix my mouse? Can you plug in my hdmi?
- [37:23]
Bill Simmons
I forgot my spectrum password.
- [37:25]
Chris Vernon
Yeah, I can't change the inputs. What's going on with this thing? Whatever. And so. And my parents live very close to me. And so I said, I said, hey, man, happy Father's Day. And he was like, oh, yeah, happy, happy Father's Day to you too. I. I swear to God, I think he had no idea it was Father's Day. None. Okay. And he's like, hey, I just, I just had a question. He's like. So I was watching the US Open and like Tiger was about to go to a playoff. It looked like. And then like now it's like this guy burned or whatever. He's like, is it the same? And I was like, dad. No, I was like. I was like, dad, what you're watching right now? He's like, this is like live right now. And I was like, yes. And I was like, dad, did it never dawn on you at all that you were watching a 30 year old tiger Wood? Like, how could you have possibly thought you were watching something live? He was so into Tiger words versus what? Rocco Media.
- [38:32]
Bill Simmons
Amazing tournament number one, it was at.
- [38:35]
Chris Vernon
Torrey Pines in San Diego. Number two, Tiger's like 30 and wearing a sweater vest and Nike stuff, and it's clearly young Tiger Woods. And no, my dad. I think my dad was disappointed that he was watching Sam Burns at the end of the US Open.
- [38:55]
Bill Simmons
I think he should have told him it was Tiger woods and Tiger woods won the US Open. He probably would have found out five days later.
- [39:02]
Chris Vernon
Dude, I told this story on my local show and people were sending me all this, that I should have my dad go back and watch. He's gonna love it. He's gonna wait till he sees the 86 World Series. Like all this, you know.
- [39:19]
Bill Simmons
John Morant plays 35 minutes.
- [39:21]
Chris Vernon
Oh, come on, let's enjoy this off season.
- [39:28]
Bill Simmons
Do you think they. They intentionally don't, like, put a glaring 2008 US Open when they show those. Because of people like this older audience that might actually think Tiger woods is contending. It's got to be intentional, right?
- [39:42]
Joe House
They definitely knew they had the forecast. They knew there might be bad weather. They teed up the 2008 US Open. I mean, there was some criticism because.
- [39:52]
Chris Vernon
Why would they show Oakmont like an older version of Oakmont?
- [39:55]
Joe House
Why wouldn't they do that? Why would. They couldn't show 2016 because they up the ruling with, with Dustin Johnson and penalize him a stroke. And, and, and the broadcast, the guys on the broadcast were criticizing the usga, so they weren't going to put that one on, but they could have put 2007 on because that was Phil and Tiger both chasing after Angel Cabrera. Now, Angel Cabrera, maybe not the most likely. Not that, maybe not. But 2008 Tiger, I mean, that, that thing shows you what a U.S. open is supposed to look like and feel like. I mean, the crowd is sitting on top of the green. That's part of the problem with Oakmont. The people were not like, close enough. It wasn't the. Your giant roars. That Tiger thing. People are losing their fudgeing minds over the thing.
- [40:43]
Chris Vernon
I mean, but also they did clear it out. They cleared it out for the lightning and the rain and whatever.
- [40:49]
Joe House
So, I mean, over the four days, we didn't have any. Any.
- [40:51]
Bill Simmons
I mean, think though, watching Tiger and just so being so nostalgic for those 12 years when from 97 to 8, basically. And you know, like in basketball where we have. We have to have this stupid face of the week conversation all the time now. And it's just like these people are comets that pass through. Right. In the last 30 years in the NBA, I thought Magic's point about if you could sell out the other team stadium, that's usually a good sign of whether you're at the right level. Tiger could sell at any golf course. MJ could sell at any stadium. Kobe and Shaq together could sell out any stadium. Kobe by himself in the late 2000s. LeBron on Miami and Cleveland the second time he was there. And then Curry when he showed up at 14. And guess what? We haven't had anybody since. And it's okay.
- [41:38]
Chris Vernon
I would tell you right now, and I'm actually a relatively good person to probably talk about this as somebody who goes to every single home game in a small market. Yeah, Curry and LeBron are the only two. That's true. If you go to those games, you will see thousands of Curry jerseys and thousands of LeBron jerseys in any city. In the country.
- [42:05]
Bill Simmons
But it's not an argument. The only way it changes that's it is somebody would have to win like three, four straight titles in a row. And even then I don't know if it's going to happen. But when Benyama is the next guy who I think could potentially sell out stadiums if he just is like, you know, he's averaging 25, 15, eight blocks a game. Like, it's stuff we've never seen. But where the Curry thing was such a phenomenon, like, I don't know. But the Tiger thing made me think of that because as much as DeChambeau's been fun. Right. Scheffler is. Is at the highest level of just being competitive in every tournament as anyone a while. Brooks Koepka was fun. People love Rory. But the Tiger thing was just different. And it's just the reality of the situation. I mean House, we were there for the Masters. People love Rory. That Tiger. No, the Tiger thing went to a whole other level and you could feel it in the 08 open. It was just. I thought it was really interesting to rewatch.
- [42:59]
Chris Vernon
That's every individual sports have to have dominant characters that have unbelievable charisma. Right. Or else. Because we get. Because otherwise like Scotty Scheffler, like we know, you know whether it was, you know, even Joker now in tennis or it was Pete Sampras in tennis.
- [43:22]
Bill Simmons
Tim Duncan in the 2000s.
- [43:24]
Chris Vernon
Yeah. Or it was Tim Duncan.
- [43:25]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [43:25]
Chris Vernon
Like you but the individual or like in boxing where it was Tyson, whatever. The same kind of thing with as a comet where it's like these individual sports are even more in need of that guy. Not only. Not only do you have to be awesome, you also have to have like this charisma about you. And that's what gets everybody like all involved. Even Usain. Usain Bolt. Right. If Usain Bolt wasn't doing the bye bye and wave and everything. But all of a sudden people started caring about sprinting.
- [43:58]
Bill Simmons
Like, well, that's the thing. I was at the 2012 London Olympics.
- [44:02]
Chris Vernon
Yeah.
- [44:03]
Bill Simmons
And there was a lot of. I mean Phelps was still there. We had the Olympic team had all those dudes on it. And Usain Bolt was the ticket to get out of anything. It was like, are you going to be there for the hundred? That was it. Everybody wanted to be in there to watch that dude run. I House, I think it's. And you and I have known each other forever. It's a. It's a. Know it when you see it. Standpoint. It's weird. Like there's there's people like Aaron Judge that aren't quite there, but have a lot of.
- [44:30]
Joe House
He's getting closer.
- [44:31]
Bill Simmons
He's getting. It feels like he's creeping closer to it. But I tell you this, two years ago, but Shohei has it, no question.
- [44:38]
Chris Vernon
I'll say this. Two years ago, I took my family. My daughter was like studying the Statue of Liberty and stuff, so she wanted to go up to New York. We went to New York and then we went over to the Yankees game. I swear, even then, and this is before that season, I'd say 75% of that crowd had 99 Judge or 99 Judge shirt jerseys on. I never seen a stadium where everybody. Like, you'd see a random, like old school Jeter. You'd see a random. But like the whole crowd everywhere you went. And I got it. It's a cool name and number, right?
- [45:14]
Bill Simmons
And.
- [45:14]
Chris Vernon
But that was. That one really took me aback where I was like. Because I went with Jacoby earlier this year to the Knicks games and they don't wear. They don't wear gear, Nick. Like, there's nothing.
- [45:28]
Bill Simmons
There's retro stuff. It's. It's all over the place.
- [45:31]
Chris Vernon
But there's not like you, You. You would expect Brunson stuff to be everywhere and it's just not. And.
- [45:38]
Bill Simmons
And most the saddest is the Wizards games jersey scene at the Wizards games. House, are you.
- [45:46]
Chris Vernon
Are you locked in?
- [45:47]
Joe House
Are you on the other team? That's who. That's. I mean, it was packed for LeBron. It was awesome. When the Lakers came, I mean, the game was over within the first half. But what number do you.
- [45:55]
Chris Vernon
What number do you have in the draft next week?
- [45:58]
Joe House
Six.
- [45:58]
Bill Simmons
Oh, let's talk. Let's talk quick draft.
- [46:00]
Joe House
The devil's number.
- [46:01]
Bill Simmons
House has six. Six. Give us your. Because we have Con Canippo coming later in the podcast. Give us your preference at six. So. Because who are you praying drops to six.
- [46:10]
Joe House
Yeah.
- [46:12]
Chris Vernon
Oh, no, no. I'm sorry.
- [46:14]
Joe House
I didn't realize what you could say.
- [46:15]
Chris Vernon
I was just gonna say I did. I'm having to, like, crash course this draft because Memphis traded their pick right away. No. To get off of Marcus Smart. So we didn't have a pick until two days ago. I'm like, oh, I gotta go. I gotta go watch everybody. Go ahead. House, who you open for?
- [46:36]
Joe House
I want the center from Duke. Come on. Malawatch or Malawak.
- [46:40]
Bill Simmons
I don't know.
- [46:40]
Joe House
How do you say it? The big giant 72 guy who can be a rim protector. He's 18 years old. Which puts him exactly right on the same timeline. I know that we're still don't like to hear about timelines, but he's in that same age range. You put him with Saar Koulibaly, you know, the two other guys, Bub Carrington, George, this young Washington team, all these young guys. And right now, the thing that is missing more than anything else is a defensive stalwart. And what we saw in terms of his ability to protect the rim and the rebounding, I think he would be.
- [47:22]
Bill Simmons
Fits in with Sar, too, right? Because Sar is almost like a. Sar prefers to be on five.
- [47:27]
Joe House
He prefers to be out at the perimeter, and he could defend on the perimeter.
- [47:30]
Chris Vernon
You guys are going to love this. So I was going through all the names from the first round and I was like, all right, now I got a crash course on all of this. And I got down to one of the names randomly, and it jogged my memory for some reason. So about three weeks ago, I'm in Target, and I'm. I always go to Target when my kids go and I buy basketball cards, right? I go and buy the box of basketball cards. So this guy standed there, guy comes up to me, he's like, hey. And he recognizes me and he's like. Starts talking about the Grizzlies. And he's like, what. What cars are you buying? And I said, well, I was just gonna buy those or whatever. He's like, get those Bowman chromes. He's like, they've got the Cooper flag in it. If you get the autograph, they're selling for like a thousand dollars. I was like, well, then I guess I'm buying those, right? So I go to buy those. I'm like, I'm gonna try to get the Cooper flag. He's like, and again, I don't know this person. And the guy goes to me, he goes, yeah. He's like, you know, everybody's chasing the Cooper flag and is trying to get the autographs everything. He's like, I'm gonna tell you something. The best player out of this entire draft is going to be Cedric Coward. And I was like, what?
- [48:36]
Bill Simmons
Okay.
- [48:38]
Chris Vernon
I was like, what? I don't even know who the hell he's talking about. And he's like, I'm telling you, just remember that a guy in Target told you this. And I was like, okay, so now I was going through it the other night and I was like, holy shit, that's the guy. Some random guy in Target told me that that's going to be the superstar that's the guy.
- [49:00]
Bill Simmons
I mean, think about how many drafts where somebody in the 12 to 20 range suddenly became the best guy in the draft. You know, I was looking at the. The. The FanDuel odds for this because obviously Harper's going to. Flag's going one. And when I was in Indiana last week, Edgecomb, the Baylor. The electric Baylor guard, he was minus 1. 25. And now he's minus 165. Because of that ESPN story today about Ace Bailey not really working out with anybody.
- [49:31]
Chris Vernon
It was the deal there. What is going on?
- [49:34]
Bill Simmons
Is this.
- [49:35]
Chris Vernon
Are we getting Atari Eason thing all over again? Are we getting Bailey?
- [49:39]
Bill Simmons
I feel like he's trying to maneuver his way to a team.
- [49:44]
Chris Vernon
So I had this happen one time years and years ago. Memphis had the. I want to say it was the fourth pick in the. I think it was the Conley Drive. I can't remember now. Yeah, but. Oh, no, no, it was before that. But anyways, the top two pick or the top pick that year was Houston. So it was the Yao Ming draft.
- [50:05]
Bill Simmons
Okay, okay.
- [50:06]
Chris Vernon
So that the top pick was Houston. And there was guys that like Amari Stoudemire only worked out for Houston and Phoenix. And so then when everybody was pit the. I think that was the year Memphis took Drew Gooden fourth. Okay. So of course, this becomes a huge topic here. What the f. We're supposed to have the whatever. Like the genius Jerry West. He's running the team. How the hell. And Jerry west came out and said, look, this guy worked out for Houston and this guy worked out. He went to 50 different high schools. We never even could find him. You know what I mean? And it was like he was excusing, not taking Amar' e Stoudemire. But it's funny, as you say, there have been guys that have done that in the past. I went to a. The year they took Kashim to beat. I went to all of the workouts and I thought James Harden was awful. And it turns out he was just dogging the workout. He just dogged it. That's back in those days, right? This was very common where you would say.
- [51:16]
Bill Simmons
You said about LaMelo Ball during COVID dog in the warriors interview. Because he wanted to go to Charlotte was always the story.
- [51:24]
Chris Vernon
Well, and that's kind of been the thing with the Shadour, right? Where people said he was trying to direct himself somewhere. But it backed.
- [51:32]
Bill Simmons
That's why I wonder. So Brooklyn has the eighth pick. And I wonder if Ace Bailey is dreaming about being on Brooklyn with the eighth pick. Because he's not working out for anybody interesting. But with the fanduel odds, Canippo is the favorite to go fourth at plus 2:30. Trey Johnson is the favorite to go fifth to Utah plus 190. And then for House's Wizards with the sixth pick, Ace Bailey, the favorite of plus 320.
- [51:59]
Con Canippo
Oh, wow.
- [52:00]
Bill Simmons
And your Duke center is plus 470. I will just say this as somebody who's known house since 1988. The Wizards drafting an unhappy Ace Bailey would give me life. Not it's a new bets all summer would be him sitting out summer league and not want and House just getting madder and madder as he gets dehydrated on another golf course. Like that's where. That's where I want my summer to go.
- [52:28]
Chris Vernon
I'm worried we cut Johnny Davis here.
- [52:34]
Bill Simmons
House has to go back to the hospital now.
- [52:36]
Joe House
God damn it, Johnny.
- [52:37]
Chris Vernon
Sorry.
- [52:38]
Joe House
That was. That was Tommy Shepard's parting gift. My issue with Ace Bailey is what if he is an 18 year old Jordan Pool? I mean, I just can't take it. I can't. You know, you're going to have to get another eight. I beg.
- [52:52]
Bill Simmons
I did some deep dive draft stuff. Yeah, there's some really interesting defensive stuff with him. Like in a good way. He's like a chase down block guy. Tell me he's a whole.
- [53:01]
Joe House
Okay, okay.
- [53:02]
Bill Simmons
If you watch those deep dive YouTube clips where they break down all the parts, they have a whole like chase down block section. And in general, like he's. I was kind of shocked how what. What kind of a rim protector he was. And then his offensive game is very, I gotta say, very similar to Joe House. Joe in his prime. A lot of like just catch and shoot, dribble, catch and shoot. A lot of foul. A lot of foul line, 18 footer.
- [53:30]
Joe House
Spin, get it up.
- [53:33]
Bill Simmons
He rebounds a little. He doesn't pass. He's a black hole.
- [53:36]
Joe House
I like to pass.
- [53:37]
Bill Simmons
No, no, I'm saying for him, he's a. But that was the one difference. Cause you were a good passer. But. But. Yeah. I wonder if he's trying to get to Brooklyn.
- [53:45]
Chris Vernon
Did you say you have Knipple on your podcast?
- [53:48]
Bill Simmons
He's coming up later. Yeah, he was great.
- [53:49]
Joe House
Hey now.
- [53:52]
Chris Vernon
Are you all in?
- [53:52]
Bill Simmons
I'm in. I didn't expect it. This was reminded me of. I liked him at Duke, but there's been a couple times where I've liked somebody and then it's like liking an indie band that then becomes famous. I thought he would be like in the 13 to 17 range because these guys always get discounted. And then as it gets closer to the draft now he's like in the top five. It's. But I. It's very similar to Westbrook. Remember, we loved Westbrook at UCLA that year. It was like, whoa, what a glue guy this guy is. He's fucking tries. And then all of a sudden he was the fourth pick, you know. So I think with Kanippo, like he just brings all this stuff to the table that every team wants. Shooting, knows where to go, defense.
- [54:35]
Chris Vernon
They. I had a. I had a GM tell me that the year that, that the Westbrook year, that they were at one of those like workout. Maybe it was in Chicago or somewhere like that, but that Rose and Westbrook were like, like 1 and 2 in the line and that everything Rose was doing, Westbrook was doing and all the GMs were just like, oh my God. Like, this guy's athletic. He's as athletic as the other guy.
- [55:00]
Bill Simmons
Like, what.
- [55:01]
Chris Vernon
What is going on here? And so it just. But it does. Like this one. Like this is a. This is a heater. This guy can apple is on where it's like. I looked at those. What Sam Bassini, I looked at his. He's got like the magnum opus draft guy that he put out today.
- [55:20]
Bill Simmons
160,000 words.
- [55:22]
Chris Vernon
It really is. And I think he's got kidnapped like three or something. Like it's like at the very top. Like there's a bunch of these.
- [55:30]
Bill Simmons
At the very top is usually a tough grader. Everybody likes him. He does all that because you need.
- [55:35]
Joe House
Certainty in those first five picks. You can't have. You know, it can't be a gamble because if you gamble and lose, you're so the problem with, you know, the.
- [55:44]
Bill Simmons
Wild guys, like, if you took this guy six, I wouldn't. I don't know. But fears the point guard who's reclassified, so he's a year young and he's just like, you know, you almost have to think you're getting. I don't know what you're getting, but the ceiling of it. I don't even know. I feel like Utah's going to take him. He feels that could be another Utah possibility. Um, but just like crazy, crazy point guard skills. But he's like a baby. So you're buying in. You're basically that you're on like a three year plan with him.
- [56:18]
Chris Vernon
Yeah, it feels like he's a little lower. In these recent mocks.
- [56:21]
Bill Simmons
He's in the six to nine range.
- [56:24]
Joe House
Seven. He's Leading the odds board at seven right now.
- [56:27]
Chris Vernon
I bet he goes, I bet he goes high as well.
- [56:29]
Bill Simmons
And then that Derek Queen, who everybody has in the 12 to 14 range, somebody will take him sooner than that. It's just like somebody won't be able to resist.
- [56:37]
Chris Vernon
It's either good and, and he's either gonna be a guy that like is like awesome like boogie cousins, or he's.
- [56:45]
Bill Simmons
Gonna be a joke or you're gonna be like, oh my God.
- [56:49]
Chris Vernon
Yes.
- [56:49]
Joe House
I don't wanna. I'm. He's from the dmv. He's from University of Maryland. I grew up rooting. He's from Baltimore. I grew up rooting for Maryland. So this, this the Crab five, the run that they just went on in the NCAA tournament was awesome. And the shot that he knocked down for them to get to, to, you know, move along. I'm worried about his defense. I'm worried about his ability to play professional NBA level defense.
- [57:14]
Bill Simmons
But that's the thing. Whatever team he goes to, he's like team dependent. For me, if he goes to the wrong team, I would be really worried about him.
- [57:22]
Joe House
Yes, agree.
- [57:22]
Chris Vernon
Do you have a, do you have a lower guy? Do you have a lower guy you've fallen in love with? Bill?
- [57:28]
Bill Simmons
I have a late second round guy that I like.
- [57:31]
Kevin Hench
Oh, late second.
- [57:34]
Bill Simmons
I always look at the, it's funny. I always look at the counting stats because sometimes I think we discount that somebody's just putting up stats. Right. So the guy who led the league in it though, who led college in assists last year was Nemhard, his brother. Oh, he's at Gonzag. He's 5 11.
- [57:54]
Joe House
He's.
- [57:55]
Chris Vernon
It's tough to make it at 5 11.
- [57:57]
Bill Simmons
So he's 511 at 10 assists a game. And then if you. First of all, the YouTube stuff with him is really good. But if you go and like talk about like the quotes from teammates and coaches like Mark Fuse, like he's just like effusively praising him. I just feel like he's one of those guys where like three years from now he's going to be on somebody's team in like the Eastern Conference finals. He'd be like, wow, that is the 57th pick. Had it. So he's like my stealth sleeper. I haven't done enough. I'm set. Something to do all weekend, much to my wife's chagrin, is study the rest of these dudes.
- [58:32]
Chris Vernon
And I'll tell you this now you look at these guys that are like, even as we're watching the NBA Finals. And it's like, I mean, this Oklahoma City team who's now, you know, game away from being able to win the title, they're crazy. Their fourth leading scorer, their fourth leading scorer on the whole team was the 55th pick in the draft in Aaron Wiggins. He was their fourth leading scorer this year. And it's like, damn, man. Like, you know, how many years ago could we have talked about this? And like you didn't get any. Like, you never got like there was like the random manu that was the draft and stash and there was like. But like second round picks and undrafted are like hitting and being awesome for teams that are winning like the conferences now, like even the nem Hard brother, right? It's not a high pick. TJ McConnell, like Aaron Wiggins, Alex Caruso, like, there's a bunch of second round and undrafted guys that are having like major rotation impact.
- [59:40]
Joe House
I would have bet. And this, this tells you how I've been doing gambling wise. Although I did finally hit. Saw a nice one with Oklahoma City last night. I would have bet $500 that Bill Simmons said his deep is his second round. Guy was Walter Clayton Jr.
- [59:53]
Bill Simmons
The Florida Kid, because he's going to be end of the first round.
- [59:56]
Joe House
Oh, he's. He's pushed himself all the way up to potential first round.
- [59:59]
Bill Simmons
Listen, if the Celtics took him at 28, I'd be delighted.
- [60:03]
Chris Vernon
I'd have to look down at that.
- [60:05]
Joe House
I understand.
- [60:06]
Chris Vernon
No, I would have thought it would be like, well, no, I can't even.
- [60:10]
Bill Simmons
Well, you got. Did you. Who got the 23rd pick? Who did Indiana trade that 23rd pick to? Is that Memphis or New Orleans?
- [60:17]
Chris Vernon
No, no, New Orleans.
- [60:18]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, yeah. It's all right around the range where he. I could see him going a couple spots too high. I like that dude, though. You liked him too, right? House?
- [60:25]
Joe House
I loved him. Are you kidding me? The stones on that kid. His comfort's good.
- [60:29]
Bill Simmons
Like, all kidding outside. Yeah, yeah. All kidding Aside, like, the 16th pick in this draft might actually be somebody good. So at least you'll be down the road to maybe replacing the best under 30 shooter in the league.
- [60:45]
Chris Vernon
I'll tell you this. I'm looking down like right where you were talking about, like that Nemhardt, Ryan Nemhardt. He's like, I think on this ESPN mock I just pulled up, he's like 58. But I mean like, you're at the end of that draft. It's like senior, senior, senior, senior, senior, senior. And I.
- [61:03]
Bill Simmons
You.
- [61:03]
Chris Vernon
You super senior, super senior, senior, senior, super senior. Senior like because these guys all got to go to school extra and they got nil and they stuck around teams. I think this could be more like immediate impact from the second round than maybe you've ever seen before.
- [61:22]
Bill Simmons
Like I had somebody tell me last week that one of the reasons because I, I'd never understand why everybody's trying to get all these second round picks and hoarding them and. And one of the reasons they said was because college is so fucked up now and these guys are never on the same team for more than one or two years or they had extra eligibility and you know they just. It's just easier to get lucky with somebody who is in the wrong situation or they transferred to a new school and it didn't work out and their stock dropped and well, and then you.
- [61:52]
Chris Vernon
It's held against you because these guys are actually 24 years old. Like they're not what your normal but it also makes them much more able to be able to contribute immediately.
- [62:07]
Bill Simmons
Right. In the NBA new chaotic situation because they've transferred three times.
- [62:11]
Chris Vernon
Well this happened twice with the Grizzlies. Desmond Bain as we wrap this back up. Desmond Bain. It was ageist like people that was held against him that he was older and Brandon Clark as well. Another guy who was great at Gonzaga but had gone to a small school prior to that.
- [62:28]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [62:28]
Chris Vernon
And it's like geez, like the answer to a lot of this is many times the guy that you, you they say they draft the 19 year old and they say yeah but what is he going to look like when he's 23? And then the answer is typically not as good as Desmond Bain ever. Like he's probably not going to be that good.
- [62:47]
Bill Simmons
That was the Celtics logic with Shireman when they took oh yeah. Baylor 24. He's been a couple colleges bounced around house. Thanks for joining us on late notice and try not to pass on a golf course. Do you have any early NFL futures you want to throw at us before we go? Anything you were excited about?
- [63:07]
Chris Vernon
Don't even talk to me. Don't. No, no.
- [63:10]
Joe House
Why? I like the over for the Cowboys. For the Cowboys. I like the Cowboys. I like the Cowboys this year. I think they're decent.
- [63:18]
Chris Vernon
But my favorite like me and you did not collectively lose a fortune together.
- [63:24]
Joe House
That was different. I haven't. We're not doing that. Last year we did a bunch of AFC south. That might have been a mistake. Houston was good. I like that on Aaron Rodgers that turned out to be a mistake.
- [63:40]
Bill Simmons
Listen, I was there too. That was my Biggest regret from all the futures last year, believing in Rogers and the Jets. And guess what? I'm not falling for it this year on the Steelers. You're not. Rope me in.
- [63:51]
Joe House
You don't have to. Yeah, the Steelers, you could just stay away. Houston, the win. The AFC south is my favorite and I love the Rams this year I have all the Rams futures.
- [63:59]
Bill Simmons
So I did that when I was in Indiana last week. I did. I jumped on Houston. And when the south was still, I think, plus 110, it was near even money.
- [64:07]
Joe House
So anything plus or even money, I'm like, let me put.
- [64:10]
Bill Simmons
The Chiefs were still near even money. It's like, that's just like, you know, buying. Just buying a money bond.
- [64:18]
Chris Vernon
Am I crazy or what?
- [64:19]
Bill Simmons
Are the Chiefs not going to win the division?
- [64:21]
Chris Vernon
Am I crazy? Wasn't there some story about how C.J. stroud, like, hasn't been able to throw.
- [64:26]
Bill Simmons
A football in months or something like, that'll be fine. He'll be fine.
- [64:29]
Joe House
Yeah, they were soldier.
- [64:32]
Chris Vernon
Injuries are always fine.
- [64:33]
Bill Simmons
No, it's fine. I didn't see that story.
- [64:40]
Chris Vernon
Isn't that a thing? Is it CJ Stroud's shoulder? Isn't that a thing?
- [64:43]
Bill Simmons
Well, the south, like the Hunter trade was, seems like it might end up working out. Bizarre. The Colts, Danny Dimes is already the qb. And then Tennessee. Like, how is Houston if they don't win the division? That's embarrassing anyway. All right, guys, good times. Vernon, thanks for popping on. Say hi to everyone in Memphis. Don't. I like Memphis?
- [65:03]
Chris Vernon
Thank you.
- [65:03]
Bill Simmons
As a city, we needed that.
- [65:05]
Chris Vernon
We needed that.
- [65:05]
Bill Simmons
Some of the stuff that was out there this week, that wasn't nice.
- [65:09]
Chris Vernon
We needed it.
- [65:10]
Bill Simmons
What do you mean stuff that was.
- [65:13]
Chris Vernon
Out there this week?
- [65:13]
Bill Simmons
What was the stuff about superstars don't feel safe in Memphis or whatever? Yeah, what was that, though? Where did that come from?
- [65:20]
Chris Vernon
It was.
- [65:21]
Bill Simmons
Dude.
- [65:23]
Chris Vernon
Many times, and I'm glad you guys don't feel this way, but many times national media members, especially from big markets, feel like small markets are always in service of the big markets. And so they're never delightful in their conversations about any of the small market teams. That being set aside, what Stephen A. Smith did was so damaging and irresponsible. Like, we fight uphill in Memphis against the perception of. Right. And all I will say is, you guys know, I have been here for 25 years. There has never been a player that I know of that has ever asked for a trade outside of Pau Gasol when the team was going to go into tank mode. Right. And they did right by him and they sent him to Los Angeles, right? There has never been a player as far as I know that has not re signed once they have played in Memphis, if everything was even. There's nobody that's walked off and has gone somewhere else, right? So when you have, it's not like it's been a franchise for five years. When you've been a franchise for 25 years and you have all kinds of players that still. Tony Allen lives here, Zach Randolph lives here, Mike Miller lives here, Tayshaun Prince lives here. There's a lot of people that have still made Memphis their home. There's been all manner of NBA players come through Memphis over the years. Never once have I heard of them being the victim of some kind of violence. And to me what made me so angry about that whole thing was yes, Memphis has problems, okay? And Memphis has the crime statistics are the crime statistics, right? But these guys are not like the idea that you are saying oh well, Memphis, you know, players don't want to go to Memphis because. Because it's dangerous. Right? That's what he said, right? Have you ever heard that said about any other city, any other sports market, any other team ever? Has that ever been a thing? Did anybody say, hey you know what, Caleb Williams might not want to go to the Bears, you know, they got a lot of crime in Chicago. Or Cade Cunningham, I don't know if he wants to play in Detroit. You know, they got a lot of crap like to bring that up. Nothing happened, right? Nothing happened. And so the conversation was about should they just trade John Morant? And then it turned into, look, Jimmy Butler didn't want to go to Memphis because Jimmy Butler and others have told me that Memphis is dangerous. Well, like there's 25 years of sample size of NBA players loving playing in Memphis, right? They've never left. And it's not just been hardened guys like the Tony Allen's and the Z Bos. Mike Conley was here for an awful long time at his names in the rafters and Marcus all was raised in Spain and after he was went to high school in Memphis and then played his entire career until he went to Toronto and LA at the very end, right? Like so if it, if players don't want to be there, then why do they always resign? Why do they never want to be traded? Why do they end up loving it and swearing by it? You know, any city is. And look, you guys know as. And even when I first took the job with you, Bill, I mean if I'd have Said, hey, yeah, I'll move to California, right? Like, I, I've always wanted to be here. I was told years ago, in order to have anybody care about what you were doing, you got to go to a bigger market. Right? And I think there's a lot of people in the media that still feel that way and they still feel that way about sport. And so they will do anything to make sure. Like they just want Jaren Jackson, somebody on, on a team that's on tv, John Morant, somewhere else, whatever. But to go out of your way to say players don't want to go there because it's dangerous to me is so far over the line. Because unless you want to tell me, like, how has that never been said about anywhere, Washington D.C. 's got a, got crime, Chicago's got crime, Detroit's got crime, la's got crime. Like all these places have crime. I hate to tell you this, not only are these players insulated from them, if you talk to players, they are so much more beloved in small markets than they are in big markets because it matters more to us. And they are a lot more involved in the community and they're reaching out and touching people and everybody. It's like, all for one, one for all. And people are out in the grocery store, they treat these guys like kings. They treat them like kings, not like targets. What?
- [70:22]
Joe House
Yeah, Bruno, you know this. I love Memphis. I've been down to Memphis twice in five years. Yeah. 20, 19, then again to come on the show with you guys, that live show we did.
- [70:34]
Chris Vernon
That's right.
- [70:35]
Bill Simmons
And I mean, I got to spend probably like five, six days there for the Eastern, the Western finals that time. Yeah, I loved it. I power walked everywhere. The food I'm probably put on, I had to power walk because of the food. But no, super.
- [70:50]
Chris Vernon
It's super damaging for somebody to go on national TV and say players don't want to go there because, all right.
- [70:57]
Bill Simmons
You made a case.
- [70:58]
Chris Vernon
You know what I mean?
- [70:59]
Bill Simmons
I appreciated hearing the case. That was heartfelt.
- [71:04]
Chris Vernon
That was super annoying because look, every city's got its problems. Got to deal with the problems, right? But come on, dude, like the. Being a professional athlete in Memphis is a great kick, it's a great gig. And not to mention you could, I mean, you could live in a Bill Simmons size house for nothing.
- [71:23]
Bill Simmons
Somehow. I took a stray at the end there.
- [71:25]
Chris Vernon
No, no, I'm just saying. No, it's a huge house, right? Like, I mean, we don't have oceans. We don't have oceans. We got a river Great food, though.
- [71:34]
Joe House
Great to see you.
- [71:36]
Bill Simmons
Take it easy this weekend. Please burn out. My pleasure as always. Good to see you sad. Everyone in Memphis for us.
- [71:41]
Chris Vernon
All right, fellas, see you.
- [71:43]
Bill Simmons
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- [74:00]
Kevin Hench
I'm. You know, when Mike Schur sent the text, did we just trade Devers? I was instantly delighted, and I knew nothing of the particulars. I was so happy to have a fucking guy who refuses to do the easiest thing in baseball to help his team. I mean, you know, there are so many examples. Obviously last year when it's like, hey, we're going to get Drew Holiday and Kristoff's Porzingis now. You know, there aren't going to be as many shots to go around. And everyone's like, that's fine. That's no problem. We want to win a chip. And you know, sports historically, like, you know, Joe Thuney going out to left tackle for the Chiefs. He had to know he was going to get his ass handed to him. He's a left guard, you know, but it's like, you just do whatever the team needs for the guys in the clubhouse. So we had a player making 10, 20, 30 times as much as the other guys in the clubhouse who's like, I don't want to move a millimeter outside my comfort zone, which. So he's taking it out on his teammates. Like, obviously, we need you to play first base. We have Noah, so guard playing first base. You have to play first base. And he was like, I hate this team so much, I'm willing to punish my teammates. Which, by the way, is why, if you've read the subtext of all of his teammates, fuck off. Fuck off has been the subtext of everybody who's commented.
- [75:19]
Bill Simmons
Not a lot of people coming out being like, you know, Rafi was a pro. I'm going to really miss him.
- [75:25]
Kevin Hench
Even Poppy, obviously, saying, like, you, certain things you have to do for the team. So I immediately was like, good riddance to that guy. And then when I heard, I mean, we were over a barrel. We're in fourth place. We have too many players for not enough positions. The fact that I was like, they took on the whole contract and Kyle Harrison might be a number three starter in the majors. I just couldn't believe the return we got given the bind we were in, you know. Now, I know your feeling is it was a little self inflicted, but.
- [75:59]
Bill Simmons
Well, hold on, a little self inflicted. So go backwards. This. So this goes to the big Red Sox incompetence, the franchise piece of this, where since they won the title in 2018, they've been all over the Map starting with the Mookie bets thing, which was basically our version of the Luka Donches trade in Dallas, where just only it was a slow motion car crash version of it where we were watching it for 18 months going, they're not really going to let them go, right? And then all of a sudden, they him for 5 cents on the dollar. Devers was the panic extension coming off them blowing the Xander Bogarts thing a year before, not extending him, and then let him go to San Diego for a ton of money, which actually turned out to be pretty good for them. And the Red Sox fans are so mad, they said. And they just gave Devers all this money to be their third baseman. And then two years later, they signed Alex Bregman to play third base. And endeavors was like, I, you. I have a 10 year. And so it starts there and it just gets worse and worse. I blame everybody. There are no good guys in this.
- [77:09]
Kevin Hench
I definitely think one of the, one of the columnists hit on it like communication was not strong. Obviously. I don't know if you watch the studio with Seth Rogen, right? But it's like that episode where somebody has to give the bad note to the star. Somebody has to tell the star or the director. Was it Ron Howard? Someone has to give Ron Howard the note that you're making a mistake. And I feel like this was the baseball version of that, which is like, hey, somebody has to tell Raffy he's a terrible third baseman. Has anyone had that conversation with Raffi yet? Who's told Raffi that he sucks at third? And so, I mean, obviously this, this crazy little zoom insight that we've all gotten that nobody thinks Breslow can communicate.
- [77:52]
Bill Simmons
The GM of the Red Sox, who people think is a non communicator.
- [77:56]
Kevin Hench
The guy literally an Ivy League molecular physicist, not a great communicator. What a shocker.
- [78:04]
Bill Simmons
Amazingly clicked with John Henry. They just went to a restaurant and just stared at each other awkwardly for two hours.
- [78:10]
Kevin Hench
This is the perfect storm, right? You know, English is a second language. Dominican third baseman, molecular physicist. Hey, you guys had a good talk about this, right? Well, I don't know if he really knew what I was saying. Like, it's so insane.
- [78:26]
Chris Vernon
So.
- [78:26]
Kevin Hench
So Rafi is told like, yeah, we just got a go glove third baseman, which is obviously going to help the team. I don't know why the first base conversation wasn't already happening. I guess because they still believed Casas was the answer there. Although, you know, prior to Casas, he was.
- [78:44]
Bill Simmons
They wouldn't. They. We were talking about all winter they wouldn't trade Casas for a pitcher because they love Casas.
- [78:49]
Kevin Hench
But, but gosh, watching the, you know, before he got hurt, he, he certainly did not look like the answer at first base. But, you know, even if you're going to play Casas against righties, Rafi should just have a first baseman's glove in spring training that just like, once Bregman's there. But I would say this again, so much that's been written and a ton has been written, Buster. Only Tyler Kepner in New York Times, 10,000 texts in our text chain, all invoking Mookie Betts. And, well, Tyler Kepner is the only one who invoked Babe Ruth. So it's like, okay, Babe Ruth, Mookie Betts, Raphael Devers, which one doesn't fit in this picture? Like, he's not Raffy Dabbers or Babe Ruth. He's. He's a very good hitter. He's. He's fat and slow and not a good baserunner. And he's, and he hits the Yankees well. But even his slugging percentages are not that nuts. Like, it's just, you and I both agree that that contract was going to get really bad really fast. The panic contract. So now that's somebody else's problem. And I just, you know, I mean, I'm going to love all the fly balls to left in San Francisco that are caught on the track. Those are not doubles anymore, Rafi. And of course you're, you're bitter.
- [80:12]
Bill Simmons
This is, I haven't seen such a bitter side from you in a while.
- [80:15]
Kevin Hench
I'm such a team guy that it's like, I mean, and again, Kyle Schwaber, the ultimate example, like, I will embarrass myself at first base. I don't, I don't know how to do it. I don't know how to catch a chest high throw. I don't know how to flip underhand to the pitcher. And he's like, but if that's what you need, I will go humiliate myself in front of a sold out stadium to help the team versus Rafi Devers is like, I'm butt hurt. I'm not going to help the team at all.
- [80:42]
Bill Simmons
Well, now then he does. I mean, one of the reasons we're doing this now is he did the Giants press conference. And he's like, I'll play wherever you made the key point. He did. There were all these red flags from the moment they started. Bregman, they clearly didn't talk to Devers. And be like, hey, we're thinking about doing this. If we did this, you'd have to be the dh. But we think this is an amazing opportunity for us. One of the reasons you were talking to Bregman was because they kind of were out of the loop on free agency for the whole winter, right? And then belatedly, all of a sudden, Bregman became a possibility that you go to Devers if you're thinking of doing this. If he's your franchise guy, which is the amount of money they gave to him, you would think that's your guy. You go to him and you say, hey, we're thinking about doing this. You'd have to be the dh. But we really think the team would be awesome. It would help you. Your stats are going to be the best. But they obviously didn't do any of it. And then they just signed this guy and knocked Evers out of there. And to be fair to him, I do think he felt like, I am your franchise third baseman, even though I'm an awful defender and even though I'm by the time I'm 33, I will be just be like wearing concrete cleats, basically. I do think he felt like I'm the guy. I'm the Brooks Robinson in Baltimore of this Red Sox team.
- [81:58]
Kevin Hench
That is a great question. It's like, does Raffy know he's a terrible third baseman?
- [82:03]
Bill Simmons
I doubt we knew because it was like two thirds of your text. I think about what a butcher he is at third base.
- [82:10]
Kevin Hench
Like, does Jalen Brunson think he's a good defender? Does he not know, why are they going at me on every possession? Like, because you're terrible.
- [82:20]
Bill Simmons
Does Karl Anthony Towns know that he commits dumb fouls? He might like, Deborah's might not know. He might not have any idea.
- [82:26]
Kevin Hench
I don't think Deborah spends a lot of time on Baseball Reference like we do.
- [82:30]
Bill Simmons
Going deep. Well, the big thing with the Devers trade, because you and I saw it the same way. And then so some of our other friends were like, you know, this guy's potentially one of the best 10 to 12 hitters in either league. All the Yankee fans we know are rejoicing. It's like, thank God you got rid of Deborahs. He killed us. Which is true. You never want to make a trade where the Yankee fans are going nuts. But I think both of us saw it the same way. When you're giving those giant contracts to people in baseball and they're not position guys and they get older and they start you Start heading down Giancarlo Stanton Mountain pretty fast where you're like, wait, how many years are left? And there's just no way to unload it. It was kind of a miracle that San Francisco was like, we'll take, we'll take all of it. And here's our best prospect from a year ago and here's our number one draft pick from last year. And it's like I, I, the trade itself, I can't argue with.
- [83:24]
Kevin Hench
Yeah, we, we beyond maxed out in terms of our return, you know, especially again, given the bind that everybody knew we were in, this bind. We weren't negotiating from a position of strength. And like you talk about these huge contracts. The Blue Jays are three months into this Guerrero contract and it's a disaster. He has eight home runs, you know, so, you know, there's going to be, it's going to get worse as it goes on. The idea is that Vladimir Guerrero, who had 48 home runs as a 22 year old, is going to be better as a 26 year old, you know, so everyone is rushing to shit on this Red Sox and say this is the latest installment in this continuing trend. And then they'll like invoke the Xander Bogarts thing. And it's like, wait a minute. That was amazing. That was incredible that the Padres are on the hook for another quarter of a billion dollars for a guy with a.640 OPS. And I think this Rafi contract is going to be a lot more like the Xander dealer. Right.
- [84:27]
Bill Simmons
But here's the problem. And this is, and we were chronicling all this in real time. None of the decisions made sense when you match them against all the other decisions. Right. The crime with Bogarts was they could have signed them to an extension a year earlier for way less money than they didn't. They did the sale extension that you and I almost had a conniption about. And I was mad at the Red Sox not even following them full time. But it was like, really? That's we're going to give sale. But then, and then the story contract, Trevor story for the where it was, nobody would sign him in free agency because they're worried about Ozobo. And then the Red Sox were going, oh man, we can get him for that price. He was really good two years ago. And then they sign him and he blows out his elbow, but without bothering.
- [85:11]
Kevin Hench
To check his home road splits in Colorado. Just to know what you're actually.
- [85:14]
Bill Simmons
Bad contract. Yeah.
- [85:16]
Kevin Hench
What you're actually getting.
- [85:17]
Bill Simmons
Or like Giolito and, and, and Bueller, where you're spending and you know, you're getting like two expensive quarters instead of just trying to sign a dollar. I just think they're all over the map. That's my bigger issue.
- [85:29]
Kevin Hench
And I guess I, I, you know, and again, rarely the voice of optimism on the text thread, I'm usually the other guy. But I would say with Crochet at the top of the order, I mean, you could argue we have the most dominant starter and the most dominant closer in baseball. Okay. In between some question marks, although it looks like Whitlock might be turning the corner. Baio had a great start purely as a byproduct of us benching him and.
- [85:54]
Bill Simmons
Roto and our keeper team. We turned the season around.
- [85:59]
Kevin Hench
So, I mean, you know, Giolito is going to make a run at Hershey's 59 consecutive scoreless innings, apparently. So the team right now with these kids, I mean, you know, there are no guarantees as, as we, we've learned a million times. But, but Anthony Marcelo Mayer and April Christian Campbell are exciting at least if KC can get back to what he was a mere six weeks ago.
- [86:26]
Bill Simmons
Don't leave out Narvaez, the rookie of the year.
- [86:28]
Kevin Hench
And then Narvaez is a revelation, as I said. So we have a young catcher, Jaren Durant had an 8.7 war last year. That's a very exciting player. And that war is way over anything Raffy Devers has ever posted it. Devers has averaged a 3.8 WAR for the last four full seasons.
- [86:48]
Bill Simmons
You get nerdy with me. This is great.
- [86:50]
Kevin Hench
It's just not, it's just not impossible to find 3.8 wins in other places. Now watching the 2 nothing victory over the last night, I did realize, oh boy, we're going to have a lot of trouble scoring runs until Bregman gets back. But hopefully once Bregman and Abreu are both back, you know, the lineup has a little more length and we can keep winning these, these 31 games.
- [87:15]
Bill Simmons
Well, I as you know, much to your chagrin, I really backed off with the Red Sox for a few years after the bet straight, I really had an issue with it. I didn't know if I was coming back and I got sucked in partly because we have meyer on our Al Keeper team. We spent $25 on Christian Campbell. We have Narvaez and I really got sucked back into the team. And it's been a weirdly fun season for a team that for two straight months lost every one run game they played. And if the game was in the 10th inning, it was just a guaranteed loss, but yet it was fun. It was something fun about them. And I do like these teams that have the young kids. Like when we were growing up, that 74 Red Sox team, when they brought up Lynn and Rice near the end. And then all of a sudden, at 75, it blossomed. We watched the pitchers in the 80s, and all of a sudden they're on the 86 team. Like, we've had experiences like this before and it did suck me back in. And then they do this, Deborah's trade, which was defensible, but at the same time, like, oh, we've saved all this money. Now we get to use this money elsewhere. And it's like, I don't trust you to use this money or spend it. Do you even think they're going to spend it? What are they going to spend it on? What do we need? We need relievers.
- [88:27]
Kevin Hench
I'd love for them to extend Bregman now, maybe while he's in the rehab pool.
- [88:33]
Bill Simmons
Well, his leverage is the best it's ever going to be right now. Right.
- [88:36]
Kevin Hench
We do need another frontline starter behind Crochet. And, you know, is Rafi going to get trimmer as he gets older? Is he going to. It just seems like this. It's funny because I've been feeling gaslit by baseball all spring in that I was like, the Red Sox are not this bad and the Yankees are not this good. I just couldn't understand as we plummeted into a double digit deficit in the standings, I'm like, how is Paul Goldschmidt hitting? 350? This is not supposed to be happening. Well, the regression of the mean has started. Judge is not going to hit.400, Goldschmidt's not going to hit.350, and the Red Sox not going to lose every one run game. And in the same way I've been feeling gaslit by the Buster Olneys and Tyler Kepners of the world, who are like, well, you can invoke Mookie if you want, but the fact is, this was an amazing escape act by the Boston Red Sox that to get out from under this onerous contract, that's only going to get worse as baseball economics change. With people watching mma and Formula One, is there to be more money running around baseball? A $313 million designated hitter is insane. And in fact, going back to the Mookie deal, it's crazy, given that we were giving the Dodgers a generational player for nothing in return that they would only eat 48 of the 96 million on the David Price contract. It's like, you should have eaten that whole contract.
- [90:02]
Bill Simmons
You're getting bets.
- [90:04]
Kevin Hench
So, so again, no one's defending that trade, but the, the, the particulars of that trade make this trade look better. They got a slow DH and they're eating the whole contract.
- [90:19]
Bill Simmons
He's, he's going to hit for San Francisco. I would, I would bet anything. He has a big last four months. He'll be rejuvenated. You know where it's going to go. We've seen it too many times.
- [90:27]
Kevin Hench
I'll say this about San Francisco, which is. I, you know, I didn't, I didn't realize. I texted you, but, like, I didn't realize what Robbie Ray was doing out there because we're in an AL le, our team's in the American League. But I was like, this guy's career was over. Like, he hasn't won three games in three years. He's 8 and 1 with 2.5, and I'm sure he'll shut us out on Sunday in San Francisco. But I was like, I don't think the Giants are comparable to the Dodgers. Like, I think they're, they were close enough to believe that if they added a bat, they could compete with the Dodgers. But I don't, I don't, I don't think that's real. And I actually think that by the All Star break, the Dodgers will be six games ahead of the Giants and pulling away. Obviously, Shohei hit 100.
- [91:19]
Bill Simmons
Our friend Mike Shore was. Didn't like the trade and made a point that I thought was really important about, and it ties back to the bets trade. Why. Why I think the bets trade is relevant to this because I think it's something the owners in front office don't really fully understand with the Red Sox. Like, the Yankees would never let Judge go or trade Judge. Right? That's their guy. They made that decision five, six years ago. And the same way the Red Sox with Ortiz probably somewhere in the 2000s, were like, this guy's going to retire with us. And I think, like, especially as I get older, that's the kind of stuff I respond to with sports, like the chance to root for somebody for 20 years. And I think with bets, that's what hurt the most with all that was like that. Just. He just should have always been a Red Sox. And you, when you strike oil with a guy like that, and then to hear the owner talking about some of the reasons they decided he wasn't going to Be worth it, because we studied the history of these deals, and as these guys get older and the. And it's like, this guy's the freak athlete of all freak athletes who plays every position you want him to. Why didn't they have that same feelings for Devers? Why didn't they worry about, what is this Devers deal going to look like? Like, when he's 35? Why was it with Mookie Betts that that was who they were worried about? I will never understand that.
- [92:40]
Kevin Hench
Well, I mean, I think, as everybody has written it, as you have said, is that, you know, the Devers signing was not in a vacuum. It was in response to the reaction.
- [92:50]
Bill Simmons
Pure panic. Yeah, it was. The city has turned on us. We have to do this.
- [92:55]
Kevin Hench
Let's compound that mistake with another mistake. The thing that's crazy about the Mookie thing. I mean, you know, you and I have been through this a million times, but generational talent, five tools, like, does. He's not just generational. Nobody's ever done what Mookie bets. You can't. You can't be a Gold Glove right fielder and then go play shortstop and then turn the back end of a double play at second base and then hit for power, but also hit behind the runner on a hit and run. You know, like, it's crazy how singular he is. He's a lot like Shohei in that regard. Like, he's one of one. Then you go to the next thing, which is, like, the community. Is he a good citizen? Is he a good guy? And you're like, yeah, obviously, 10 out of 10, he checks every box, and he's feeding the homeless after playoff games. And this is, you know, like, Big Papi has a lifetime ambassador contract with the Red Sox. And that should have been Mookie Betts, of course. So I'm able to separate that mistake from this excellent trade. I am. I am delighted.
- [94:03]
Bill Simmons
Doing excellent. I like it.
- [94:05]
Kevin Hench
And I cannot believe how much they ate and how much we got back. Because I was looking at Kyle Harrison. I don't. You know, he's 23. Like, that guy is, you know, is a big leaguer.
- [94:15]
Joe House
That guy's. Yeah.
- [94:17]
Bill Simmons
A year ago, he was the number two pitching prospect that wasn't in the majors yet behind Paul Skeens. Seems relevant.
- [94:23]
Kevin Hench
It seems relevant. And so. And it's weird that Jordan Hicks was the lead name on the trade when clearly he's kind of already pumpkin as a major leaguer.
- [94:31]
Bill Simmons
And Kyle Harrison's there, or maybe he's a reliever and shouldn't have been a starter. I don't know. I'm not giving up on him either. You know, I actually looked up. Cause I. Cause Devers did win a title for us. Right. He was. He was the last guy from the 2018 team.
- [94:45]
Kevin Hench
Of course he made. And ironically, he makes that diving play toward the bag. It's an insane play when you think about what a shitty third baseman he would become.
- [94:54]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [94:55]
Kevin Hench
It's a completely clutch defensive play. Also had a huge hit in that comeback.
- [94:59]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. So. So technically, he's not eligible because they did win a title when he was part of the team. But it was, you know, he was young at that point, and you wouldn't have said he was one of the four best guys on the team or anything. So I don't know. I have to. I have to look back at the rules and see if he's eligible. But I do think when you see how the team remains. Didn't react to the trade. We didn't have players going, like, I can't believe we traded Rafi. What are we doing here? Like, none of that is right. It's like, hey. And then you. You hear Breslow, who, you know, might be a maniac for all we know, but he's like, I think we're gonna have a better record at the end of the year than we would have if we had him. It makes me think this must have been pretty bad behind the scenes or pretty weird or pretty awkward or something. So they feel like they're removing a literal. Very similar to Nomar in 04, when that got very similar. Really weird.
- [95:46]
Kevin Hench
And, you know, like, if you look at the baseball card, Orlando Cabrera and. And Doug man Cavic is. Is not a great return on paper. But, you know, and you and I talked about it, it's going to make Derek Lowe better because as soon as we get better defensively, Derek Lowe will be a better pitcher.
- [96:03]
Bill Simmons
We love the trade. We. We were like. We were like, oh, my God, we have a shortstop with range who's going to be able to make plays, you.
- [96:10]
Kevin Hench
Know, and we had seen no more killing us on the field. But, yeah.
- [96:12]
Chris Vernon
So I think.
- [96:13]
Kevin Hench
Think it's going to be. And I do think it's analogous Nomar refusing to go into that game in New York while Jeter is planting his face on a metal chair and no more outing. That is the analogy that feels right. So you have a guy that the team needs to play first base. He's saying, I would rather just work my 12 minutes a night. I mean, what is a DH's job? It's insane. You have a 12 minute workday. You work these four installments.
- [96:39]
Bill Simmons
Just got to get psyched up for every bat. I might be hitting again in 40 minutes.
- [96:45]
Kevin Hench
You sit around and the team needs you. So it's funny because you and I have talked a little bit about this. We're old now. We're in this older generation. And it's like, I think you and I have both seen some of the Gen Z attitude, the entitlement. And of course they're entitled. We've done nothing but tell them how awesome they are their whole lives. Oh, my God, this awful finger painting is going right up on the fridge. They're a genius. Like, of course they're fucked up. But I really did feel like the I'm not going to play first base. He's like, I've already learned the quote where he said, I've already learned a new position. I've learned how to sit on the bench. Like, what is dh?
- [97:28]
Bill Simmons
Tell us.
- [97:28]
Kevin Hench
Walk us through learning how to dh.
- [97:30]
Bill Simmons
Plus, like, if I was a professional baseball player, I'd want to play first base. It would just be more interesting. You get to be in the field. You might be. You might be involved in the action. I would just rather do that.
- [97:40]
Kevin Hench
And a below average third baseman can be a pretty good first baseman pretty quick. Like, there's not. There's not that much to do. Although I will say Abraham Toro and the collection of guys try, you know, the. The Red Sox first baseman do this thing on every routine. Ground ball to second base. They sprint and lay out. So it's like, okay, if the pitcher's not over there, it's another infield hit.
- [98:04]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. All right. We passed a lot of time for this Pats. I was in Indy and I did Pats. Over 9 1/2 wins plus 160 on FanDuel. Couldn't have been more excited about it. Also bet some Rabel plus 7. 50. Coach of the year. I'm in.
- [98:20]
Kevin Hench
I love it. We are in the Roman Anthony Drake May era. It's a new day.
- [98:24]
Bill Simmons
And don't forget about our guy, Marcelo Meyer, who we have on our fantasy team as well.
- [98:30]
Kevin Hench
He's a beautiful swing.
- [98:31]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. All right, Hench, Good to see you. Thanks for venting to us.
- [98:35]
Kevin Hench
All right. Thanks, brother.
- [98:36]
Bill Simmons
This episode is brought to you by Vrbo Private Vacation Rentals. With Vrbo, you can save over $200 on select homes when you stay for a week or more. Say you want to go catch a few baseball games in Boston. Take some time off work. Fly into Beantown, watch the Sox play. After that, you can do anything. Go book a VRBO in Cape Cod for a week. The world is your oyster or lobster roll or clam chowder. Really. If it has shells, gills, and is indigenous to the Atlantic, it's your edible metaphor of choice. They're crustacean. Crazy down there. And guess what? Since you stayed longer than a week, you saved over $200. You know what that means? More shellfish. I love shellfish. Hope you're not allergic. Next vacation, stay longer and save. Make it a VRBO. This episode is supported by FX's the Bear. The Emmy award winning series returns following Carmi, Sidney, and Richie as they push forward, determined not only to survive, but also to take the Bear to the next level. This season, the pursuit of excellence isn't just about getting better. It's about deciding what's worth holding onto. FX's the Bear. All episodes streaming June 25th on Hulu. All right, we're taping this midweek. Con Canippo's here. He went to Duke University. Not for long. He's going to be in the NBA draft. He's going to be drafted somewhere. I would say in the top eight, but it's starting to seem like it's climbing higher than that. You've done a lot of interviews. This is the best one. I think this is the peak right here.
- [100:08]
Con Canippo
Absolutely 100%.
- [100:12]
Bill Simmons
Where are you right now? You're in Wisconsin?
- [100:14]
Con Canippo
Yeah, I'm back home. I'm actually. My parents bedroom. The most quiet place in the house.
- [100:19]
Bill Simmons
Oh, nice. That's your studio?
- [100:21]
Con Canippo
Yep. I guess so.
- [100:22]
Bill Simmons
Oh, I see some, I see some wedding pictures in the background.
- [100:25]
Con Canippo
Yeah. Wedding pictures on the back.
- [100:26]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. How long have your parents been married?
- [100:30]
Con Canippo
It's actually their anniversary coming up this week, so. 2004. 2004.
- [100:35]
Bill Simmons
Oh, my God. I'm so old. Jesus. Yeah, because one of the things, one of the reasons we want to have you on was your family sent a picture of you reading my book when you were a little kid, which I thought was hilarious. That my book is now old enough that people who read the book as little kids are now being drafted in the lottery. But what, what kind of. So did you have, like hands on parents that were driving you everywhere, like basketball camps, coaching your team? Like, what was like your family situation? How'd you end up being like Mr. Basketball in Wisconsin? How'd you end up being a top five lottery pick potentially?
- [101:10]
Con Canippo
Yeah. So both, both my parents played, played college basketball. My mom played At UW Green Bay. And then my dad played at Wisconsin Lutheran College, which is a D3 in Milwaukee. So they, I mean obviously they loved hoops and they wanted me to play. My dad wasn't like a crazy coach or anything following me around, so I never, I never played for him or anything. But they definitely made sure I worked on my game and got me in the gym as much as they could and then really helped me out that way.
- [101:43]
Bill Simmons
Wait, I want to hear about the games for the parents. So what was your mom's game? What was her position? What was, what was her like? Like, what was her skill set?
- [101:51]
Con Canippo
Yeah, so she's six one and she's. So she was a post at Green Bay and she's actually the. Yeah, she's actually the all time leading scorer there. So. So she's, I mean she loves, loves to say Kevin McHale, but the footwork.
- [102:09]
Bill Simmons
Nice.
- [102:09]
Con Canippo
Yeah, footwork up and under was the go to move, but she didn't have quite as deep of a bag as him. But that's what she likes to say.
- [102:18]
Bill Simmons
And what about your dad?
- [102:20]
Con Canippo
My dad. So he's like 64 and in D3, like he was like a 3 or a 4, but, but he could really shoot it. I say a 3 or 4 because he averaged like 10 rebounds a game is his sophomore year. But yeah, it's really just like a shooter, mid range, three point. He's actually, I think he's the all time steals leader there too. So a little bit anticipation from him, but I don't know if I could put really a player on him because his go to move is a post fadeaway at 6 4.
- [102:51]
Bill Simmons
So it's like T.J. mcConnell.
- [102:54]
Con Canippo
Yeah, right.
- [102:55]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Getting into the lane, bouncing backwards. Well, it's interesting. So you got the shooting probably from your dad's side, but some of the footwork. One of the things like watching all the tape with you, you have this herky jerky around the rim up fake game when you get into the paint that like you're patient, you'll wait, you'll do and then you'll, you'll, you know, it's a little like TJ McConnell has it. Pritchard, not to mention all white guys, but Pritchard has it. People around the rim who don't necessarily go right to the basket but kind of use defenders against themselves, which I noticed with you. The other thing that, I mean, the catch and shoot stuff is unbelievable. The, the footwork. But what, what do you, what do you think is the best part of your offensive game that you're the most proud of have.
- [103:41]
Con Canippo
Yeah, I think, I think probably the shooting now, like, I, I used to. Not like growing up, I wasn't always a great shooter, so like, I really had to work on that just like in my mechanics and all that stuff. Like, I, I, I had, I always had good form, but I just, I, for whatever reason, I wasn't always a great shooter.
- [103:59]
Bill Simmons
So, like, in ninth grade, you weren't like a dead eye.
- [104:03]
Con Canippo
Like, like right when I got to high school is when I started to become a really good shooter. So, like, in middle, middle school, I like, couldn't, couldn't shoot threes like that, but I knew I had to play.
- [104:13]
Bill Simmons
Were you taller?
- [104:17]
Con Canippo
Kinda.
- [104:18]
Bill Simmons
Because I noticed like in your high school stats, like, you actually were rebounding and it seemed like you were almost being played. A forward.
- [104:24]
Con Canippo
Yeah, no, I was like a forward for my first three years before my senior year when I had to handle the ball. But like, yeah, I definitely got, when I got to high school, I was like, all right, I got to be able to shoot threes. And that's, that's kind of been the, the thing that I can always rely on on the offensive end to create advantages for myself. So I, I'd probably say that for sure.
- [104:46]
Bill Simmons
Well, I mean, I'm, I'm sure I'm like, slightly to blame for this, but when guys are in the draft, we love doing comps. I remember doing the draft for ESPN and 13 and 14 and forcing them to do a player comp segment which Jalen was terrible at. I used to make fun of. He just could never get the hang of it. Now he's better at it it. But, but you've had some fun ones. Like you. The, the comps for con caniple are all over the map, but one of the ones that I think is, like, somewhat valid. There's some clay stuff with you that I think some people have mentioned. I mean, that would be the ideal if that was a, a clay type of career, right?
- [105:22]
Con Canippo
Yeah, I mean, that, that would be the absolute. That, that would be awesome. You know, I've always tried to, you know, you, everybody wants to play like clay if you're, if you're a shooter or, and, and he's a, also was a great defensive player back when he. Before, before the injuries and before. He's gotten older now, but, you know, that's someone you look up to when you're, when you're a player like me. And that would be, that'd be absolutely awesome. It's funny you mentioned the draft stuff because me and my family were actually just watching in between one of the finals games. I was like, we gotta watch. I don't know how it came up, but there was like, your highlights from the 2013 draft on YouTube. Oh, the, the. Whoa. Yeah, that. And. But like, you were just like, spot on the whole draft. It was really funny. So I was, I was watching that with my, my dad and my, My family outside while we were at halftime of the finals.
- [106:13]
Bill Simmons
Oh, that's funny. Yeah, I was, I had a good draft that year. I don't think the next year I did as well, but that was like one of the great drafts because it was David Stern's last draft. Nobody knew who the first pick was going to be. It ended up being Anthony Bennett. Giannis was in the draft. Nobody knew what to make of him. And it just. It was just all over. There was a big Celtic trade, that draft. But, you know, when I look at this stuff, and this is why it's so funny with, with your rise as a prospect, you're always going to be a first rounder. But I remember when I started watching Duke, because I love Cooper Flag. I was like, I just, I just thought he had it. He's, you know, especially somebody weaned on the 86 Celtics is my kind of guy. But the fact that he reclassified, he's playing older kids and he just seemed. He reminded me so much of the stuff I loved about kg, even though they're not the same size, but just like the competitiveness, how he's good at everything, how he's an anchor, he's a good passer. So I started watching Duke and I was texting our college basketball guys. I'm like, what's up with this knipple? Where's he supposed to go in the draft? Cause he keeps jumping out to me.
- [107:16]
Chris Vernon
And.
- [107:16]
Bill Simmons
And they were like, no, no, he might be a lottery pick. And I was like, this seems like the kind of guy they're going to screw up. And he'll end up going 19th, and then he'll be really good and be like, how did he fall to 19? But somewhere in the mix in the last two months, you jumped up and now you're in like, you're in the top five conversation. When did that flip?
- [107:39]
Con Canippo
You know, I don't really know. I. I think. I think a lot of it helped with the, the ACC tournament when Cooper was out. So being able to, you know, see me in. In a scenario where I'm the guy for a couple of Games and then just kind of carrying that over into the, in the NCAA tournament. I think that helped. But then, I mean, I don't, I don't really know. I haven't, I haven't played in front of anybody other than my, the team workouts I've been doing. So I guess I made a decent impression in some of my interviews and, and I, I don't know.
- [108:16]
Bill Simmons
What do they, what do they ask you in these interviews? Do you feel like they're trying to get under the hood with you and try to break you psychologically or what are they, what are they up to?
- [108:25]
Con Canippo
Yeah, I, I don't, I don't think so. You know, like, you always hear the stories about like people getting like asked ridiculous questions.
- [108:31]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [108:31]
Con Canippo
I didn't really have many of those. I think they're really just trying to get to know you. What makes you tip.
- [108:35]
Kevin Hench
Pick.
- [108:37]
Con Canippo
How you think the game as a player. You know, some teams, they'll do, they'll have you draw, step up on a board. They just want to hear how you talk about the game, how you talk about scenarios and in, in the, in the course of the season, like what your defensive coverages are. They want to get into all that stuff and then baseline stuff about like who you are as a person as well.
- [109:02]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, that's. See, I would do it completely differently if I ran a team. I would be so interested in work ethic, what your day to day routine was. Do you feel like you're the player you can be five years from now? I would be going into all the hardwire stuff because I honestly at the point you're at now with a lot of these prospects, they're all pretty much around the same talent. And then the work ethic and like having one elite skill and then that's when it starts to separate. But like, I'm sure you saw that with Cooper. Like he's famous for that. Like he's just a maniac in every single drill, every day, every practice, everything. And it really does feel like those are the guys that ascend. You know what I mean?
- [109:43]
Con Canippo
Yeah. And I think they try to get a feel for that too. So some of those questions that you were saying. But yeah, like when you mentioned a guy like Cooper, like that stuff is kind of evident too in the way he plays. Like he doesn't take plays off.
- [109:55]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [109:55]
Con Canippo
In the game. So you can, you could kind of see how that would correlate to a practice. Like he's not taking any drills off. He wants to win every drill. That stuff Carries over.
- [110:04]
Bill Simmons
Does that carry over to the teammates? It must, right? A little bit.
- [110:07]
Con Canippo
Absolutely.
- [110:08]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [110:09]
Con Canippo
I mean, I think, I think for the most part we had, we had guys that are stealth driven in that way anyway this, this past season. But I mean, when the best guy's doing it, everybody's going to do it.
- [110:20]
Bill Simmons
Or you look at, I mean, it's been two months now. Do you look back at that Final Four just like, is this going to haunt me the rest of my life? Like, what is your relationship to that game now that it's in the rearview mirror?
- [110:34]
Con Canippo
Yeah. I mean, I told my assistant coach, Coach Dildy, the night of the game, like right after the game, we got to the hotel. I was like, I was, we were going on the elevator and I was getting off and I was like, I'll never forget that for the rest of my life. Like, that'll just, just that I'll just sit with you. Just one of those games. And it's, you know, it's, it's tough. Like I, it took me about like a month to watch your episode on it. You and Rossillo did an episode on it?
- [111:01]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [111:02]
Con Canippo
It took me about a month to get around to that. And, and I thought you did a really good job. I think you had a tweet about it too that like broke down all the things that went wrong down the stretch and like, you just flip one of those things and you win the game. So. So it's one of those that just, that eats at you. But, but now, you know, I'm kind of, kind of past it. I don't think about it all the time.
- [111:25]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [111:25]
Con Canippo
And sort of that sense. But when someone brings it up. Yeah. It doesn't bring up good feelings.
- [111:30]
Bill Simmons
Well, the, the good thing is when you're much older and you're like my age, you can barely remember anything. So don't worry, it probably won't haunt you that much. But it is, it is crazy that team you had, though, when you. Like, like, I'm just looking in the context. I'm a casual college basketball fan. I'll float in, I'll watch certain teams. But then I really get into the draft and I really enjoy that part and trying to come up with my weird takes on everybody but your team is so Fun From a 20, 25 draft standpoint, you know, like even, absolutely, even the center, like, could he make, could he go fifth? Could he go sixth? Could he go eighth? And he makes sense with a bunch of different teams too. And I do wonder if after the draft People would be like, wow, look at where all those guys went in the draft. How did they not win? But that's the thing about college basketball. It's one game. It's not like, you know, you're not playing the best of seven.
- [112:22]
Con Canippo
Right. The best team always wins the best of seven. Yeah. I feel unless some injury happens or something. But in college it's just, it's always a toss up, you know, you never play at the end of the game.
- [112:36]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Cause even OKC Indiana, I remember after game three, Indiana goes up. I'm at the game, I'm doing the pod with Zach, and both of us were like, man, this isn't usually how basketball goes. Usually like the best team, if in a four out of seven, the best team almost always wins. Unless something crazy happens. Like Indiana had the reverse where now Halliburton's hurt. But for the most part, if you're going to play seven times, usually the right team wins.
- [113:07]
Con Canippo
Right.
- [113:08]
Bill Simmons
But in a one gamer, who the hell knows? All right, so some of it looks like you're in the three to seven range. So did you work out with Philly?
- [113:19]
Con Canippo
I have a zoom with them this week, but I did not work out with them.
- [113:22]
Bill Simmons
Do you start because you're like an actual basketball fan? Do you look at all these teams and try to figure out, like, what would I look like in this situation? What would I like? Is your brain even go that way? You're trying to think about it?
- [113:34]
Con Canippo
Yeah. I mean, you do a little bit. But I think like something I learned big time here at Duke this year is my first time not being the best player on a team. You know, I probably could have went to another college and been the best player. But just learning how to like, affect the game.
- [113:53]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [113:53]
Con Canippo
When the ball, when the ball is not in your hands or when you're not the number one guy. And learning about myself, that I can still be an effective player doing that. So I feel pretty confident in like any situation I'm going to go into that I'll be able to affect winning and be able to contribute.
- [114:10]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, that's the thing. Rosello is a big fan of your prospects too, for the next level. Because we tend to gravitate toward the guys that we just feel like could fit in in any type of situation. Right. Like, you look at Philly, Philly's got guards, they have embiid. It's pretty easy to see where you would fit in there. Like you would spread the floor for them. You might be able to initiate some offense. Then you go to a team like Utah where they have marketing and they have the guards, but then I could also see where you fit in with them. Charlotte's like, kind of perfect with Lamelo and Bridges and Brandon Miller. Like, they clearly need somebody like you. So you go on through and I don't know, it just feels like you could fit in any situation. Plus you can play multiple positions, right? Like, potentially you could play a three in some position. In some situations you could be a 2. You could initiate some offense. Like, I'm not worried about you.
- [115:00]
Con Canippo
Yeah, I definitely think, you know, I tend to have a little bit, like, I have a versatile skill set beyond just the shooting. Like you can get on the court shooting. Yeah, anywhere that you could play for any team if you could shoot the ball, but definitely some of those other skills that can bring to the table. Like you mentioned initiating offense and stuff. Like that stuff is valuable to any, Any team.
- [115:23]
Bill Simmons
Rebounding with the catch and shoot stuff, that's. I mean, that's hard work because that's a different kind of skill set. So you must have spent like some serious time working on that, right?
- [115:36]
Con Canippo
Yeah, when I was. Yeah, like, when I got to like that high school, like, freshman, sophomore, like, I would. I was on a shooting machine, which I stopped doing because, you know, you gotta like, practice more off the move and, and all that stuff. But, like, I really hammered down my mechanics. Like, I was a very. Like, my brother's a really good shooter and he, he can just fling it, you know, like, it's. It's not. It's natural. Like, mine is very good word for it, just very fundamental. Like, I have. It's got to be a strong shot. Like, everything has to. Has to come together. So I think, I think definitely just the amount of time I put working on my form and my mechanics really contributed to that. But I, I think, I think going forward now, like, it's. It's like riding a bike kind of.
- [116:29]
Bill Simmons
Right?
- [116:30]
Chris Vernon
Yeah.
- [116:30]
Bill Simmons
You put so much time into.
- [116:32]
Con Canippo
I put so much time into that before and now I can just keep like, adding different ways to shoot. Like, right now I'm working a ton off the dribble because that's an area I need to grow. It's just. And it's just, it's just different, you know, like, it's just a different feel is just a catch and shoot, whereas. Or an off the dribble or an off the move shot. But that, that, that's like kind of the baseline. It's like form shooting almost.
- [116:54]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. And you have to and you're already pretty good at like coming off a screen at the top, doing the one handed across the court pass, which I don't know when that pass got started, but all of a sudden now it's like, it's like a must. You have the ball, everybody. Yeah, it's a high degree of difficulty on it. What are the thing you're most worried about the next level? What's your whole.
- [117:17]
Con Canippo
Yeah, I mean, I think everybody's, you know, like, I guess playing into the stereotype a little bit of, you know, a white guy. They're going to challenge you defensively. They're going to go at you, see what you're made of. So just being ready, ready for that and being really focused on that. And so every time you go out there, just being, just being really focused on that end is going to. Is going to be really key.
- [117:41]
Bill Simmons
Being hunted.
- [117:42]
Con Canippo
Yeah.
- [117:43]
Bill Simmons
It's funny though, sometimes that can work in your favor because like the funniest was that Celtics Hauser. They would hunt Hauser and not realize that it was actually a bad idea a lot of the time. But everyone would try to do it. Be like, white guy, let's go get him. And then right then it wouldn't work out most of the time. Cause he was actually a pretty good one on one sitter.
- [118:01]
Con Canippo
Yeah. Cause he played for Tony Bennett at Virginia. Like he's all right sliding his feet.
- [118:07]
Bill Simmons
And Pritchard was another one that, you know, he was undersized, but he would fight, fight, fight and, and do it. So when you watch, I'm sure you've watched a ton of the finals, right?
- [118:16]
Con Canippo
Yeah, absolutely.
- [118:17]
Bill Simmons
So do you, do you try to envision, like, could I play in this level? Who would I be on this Indiana team? Could I have been in the Wiggins spot on this OKC team? Are you thinking that or are you just watching the games?
- [118:31]
Con Canippo
Yeah, you think about a little bit. Like I went to both Bucs games when they played Indiana. So just like kind of thinking about, man, like how could I. You know, the first thing you see in the playoffs is the physicality.
- [118:44]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [118:44]
Con Canippo
Like how are you gonna, how are you gonna adjust to that? And then you think about how you can, can help teams. And you know, I really gravitated towards Neesmith in that first round.
- [118:53]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [118:54]
Con Canippo
And like, I mean he's been really, he's been awesome. Like, I just love his shot. Like he always gives it a chance. Like every time he releases it, it feels like it's, it's going, it's either going Long or it's going in? Yeah, it's not. It's. He's never missing it short. So I. I gravitate towards him and, you know, he's got. He's got really long arms and stuff, but just. He's a great shooter and. And uses his body and his physicality while on defense.
- [119:18]
Bill Simmons
Are you a Bucks fan? Is that fair to say? Was that your team?
- [119:21]
Con Canippo
Yeah. No. Yeah, absolutely.
- [119:23]
Bill Simmons
Oh, so when they won in 21, you're going nuts.
- [119:26]
Con Canippo
Yeah, yeah, it was. That was a special time. We're a long ways from there, but.
- [119:34]
Bill Simmons
I know. You know, it's funny, I had Doc on my podcast yesterday and we were talking about. The east is so wide open. They have the best guy in the conference. Everybody thinks they're going to trade him and they're not. And it's. If you have the best guy in the conference, you have to feel like you have a chance, even if the rest of the team is a little rocky. But I think that's kind of where they've landed, at least for the next year. The east is so wide open, you're probably going to be in the East. Right? Unless it's Utah. All the other teams from three to eight are based. Oh, yeah. New Orleans will be the other one, right?
- [120:05]
Con Canippo
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm giving up my Bucs fandom now. Yeah. So, I mean, I. Yeah, I guess. I guess that's fine.
- [120:18]
Joe House
Just.
- [120:18]
Bill Simmons
Cooper can't give up the Celtics thing because we're counting on him in six years.
- [120:21]
Con Canippo
Yeah.
- [120:21]
Bill Simmons
He's come six years, we'll find out if he's actually a Celtic fan six years from now because we. We're saving 2032 cap space for him. We want him to be the first one who plays out his rookie contract and then just jumps to his favorite team right after. You can do the same thing. You can start. Maybe it could start to trend.
- [120:39]
Con Canippo
Yeah. Convince him to do that for you.
- [120:41]
Bill Simmons
Give me a Cooper story about what a. What a over competitive maniac is.
- [120:47]
Con Canippo
Yeah, I like this one just because it's the. The first time we played pickup. So we went down there a week before we actually had to go down there for the summer. So there's this thing I do called K Academy. A bunch of guys. Guys pay a whole bunch of money to get playing. Like a league.
- [121:07]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [121:08]
Con Canippo
Like a fantasy camp, basically.
- [121:10]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [121:11]
Con Canippo
It's. It's pretty cool. But we're. The guys are. We're helping run it, we're helping coach and then. And then after every day we play Pickup. So it's just like any other. Any other pickup game. Guys are going really hard. It's kind of our first time going against each other. The coaches aren't in there, but. But, you know, they got the cameras or whatever. They can probably see. See a plane. So everybody's going at each other. And me and Cooper on the same team, and we were winning every game. It was. It was really fun. And then he switches teams, and then that. We played, like, three more games, and that team won all three games.
- [121:49]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [121:50]
Con Canippo
So it's just like. That's just like any other game. Like, doesn't matter. Middle school, high school, college. The guy that does that is. Is the best player.
- [121:59]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [122:00]
Con Canippo
The guy that. Who wins all day, switches teams, and then wins. Wins three more games. So I remember telling my dad, I'm like, yeah, he switched teams while we were playing pickup, and he won all the games.
- [122:14]
Bill Simmons
Is it. Is it weird to just pass through a school for 12, 10, 11 months. Months, and then you're gone, and then for the rest of your life, people are like, Duke's concan nipple. And it's like, you were there for two semesters plus some summer games. Right. It's. It's just kind of weird how that's played out in the 21st century.
- [122:34]
Con Canippo
Yeah, it sucks because you get. You get so close with all these teammates.
- [122:40]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [122:40]
Con Canippo
And. And you get close with the coaches. You're with them all the time, every day. And then it's like. Especially now with, like, the transfer portal, like, right after the season, like, we came home, and the coaches are meeting with the guys who have, like, a decision to make as far as, like, are you staying or leaving?
- [122:57]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [122:58]
Con Canippo
So, like, they're doing that right away when they get back. There's, like, no time for reflection. They're trying to get a roster together for next year.
- [123:04]
Bill Simmons
You're not making s' mores by a campfire, just talking. Yeah.
- [123:07]
Con Canippo
It's just moving on, reflecting on the season. You just move on, and it. It kind of stinks. And then, like, if you. If you think, like, oh, man, like, I had so much fun this year, you think about, like. Like, what would you do coming back? And then it's just a completely different team anyway, so it's never gonna. It's never gonna be the same. So you don't. You don't really think about that for too long.
- [123:29]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. You're coming back and basically joining a different AAU team that has Duke jerseys and the same coaches. Yeah. I don't like if they made Me, the Zara sports and asked me to fix college shoes. The natural fix would be if you go to any college you go to, you should have to stay for two years so there's at least a little more stability. Right. And that includes the coaches. But I don't think somebody like you or Cooper or whoever else should be forced to stay in college for two years. If you guys can become, you know, lottery picks or whatever. It's just, you just never know with how long an athletic career could be. So to force somebody to stay isn't right either. I don't, I don't know how you fix it. It's one of those like unsolvable dilemmas, you know? And it feels like it's getting worse.
- [124:15]
Con Canippo
Yeah. And like we see too with like all this stuff the ncaa like can't, can't fight anything. So all. Everything that goes through is getting passed. The coaches talk about all the time is it really is the wild west.
- [124:29]
Bill Simmons
It really. And especially the nil stuff. You're like an 18 year old kid navigating all these crazy offers. What was the worst nil offer you guys got? Sex toys? Anything terrible?
- [124:41]
Con Canippo
Yes. No. I don't, I don't know if I had a worst. A worst one.
- [124:49]
Bill Simmons
How did people approach you? Did you have like a handler or was it like your parents?
- [124:54]
Con Canippo
Yeah, so you can have, you can have like an n. Agent. Yeah, so I had an agent, but like I, I was boring. Like, I didn't, I didn't really care. Yeah, I just, I just stuck with the money you get from the collective at whatever school you go to. And I did a couple things, but it was like the bare bones. You take an Instagram, right. Make an Instagram post, take one picture and then it's like whatever, whatever money you get. So I, I wasn't really too, too focused or big on it. So I don't know if I had a. At a worse, worse woman.
- [125:26]
Bill Simmons
Did you have. Who was like, did you. Were you in a suite? Who were your roommates nights? Like, were you with the other basketball guys? What was the deal?
- [125:34]
Con Canippo
Yeah, we were in the dorm. We were in dorms over on east campus at Duke, which is the freshman campus.
- [125:42]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [125:43]
Con Canippo
And we, we got like a full room. So most people would share one room.
- [125:50]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [125:51]
Con Canippo
And so like I remember somebody was like, how come they get a full room? And like the person we were moving in with is like, because, come on, is seven foot two, he's not sleeping in like a twin bed or whatever.
- [126:04]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [126:05]
Con Canippo
So, yeah, we shared it Was like Jack and Jill. So it was like two rooms that were connected, shared a bathroom. Yeah, it was. It was pretty. Pretty high level, but it was all in the freshman dorm. It was super nice around all the other regular day to day.
- [126:21]
Bill Simmons
The season ends and you get exams and then that's it. You never go back. Some guys don't even do the exams. The season ends and they're like, I'll see everybody later.
- [126:30]
Con Canippo
Yeah. So I think. I think Duke does it well because, like, we have. We all in person classes.
- [126:36]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [126:37]
Con Canippo
So a lot of. A lot of schools will just. Kids are just online and they're just clicking through. I don't know, probably. Someone's probably doing it. Doing it for them too. Like.
- [126:48]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, like.
- [126:49]
Con Canippo
And most. Most schools. I don't. I don't. I. I shouldn't say I know everything, but, like, I know a lot of schools that do. Like, they're done with school before the tournament.
- [126:57]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [126:58]
Con Canippo
So, like, you're. You're done really? Yeah. They don't go with class, go to class anyway, so we're going to. In person class. So we. We kind of stay. We have to stay a little bit longer than probably some other kids that declared for the draft.
- [127:13]
Bill Simmons
Where did your parents want you to go to college?
- [127:16]
Con Canippo
My mom wanted me to go to Duke.
- [127:17]
Kevin Hench
Duke.
- [127:18]
Bill Simmons
Oh, really? So they weren't like, putting Wisconsin pressure on you or any of that stuff?
- [127:23]
Con Canippo
My dad, I think, probably wanted Marquette.
- [127:25]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [127:26]
Con Canippo
Been cool. But my mom was all the way in on Duke.
- [127:28]
Bill Simmons
Is there a reason. Would she make the Christian Laitner documentary? Like, what was the reason?
- [127:34]
Con Canippo
No, I think she just. She knew what. How big, like, Duke is as a brand, college basketball. And she was like, oh, you're gonna play all the big games and all that. And she was in for that. Anybody knows my mom at all. She's all. She's all in for that stuff.
- [127:50]
Bill Simmons
Did she. Did you pick before or after Cooper picked before. Oh, so that's. What a bonus.
- [127:57]
Con Canippo
Yeah. No, it was great. I was. I remember when it was coming down to it and it was hit them or us or Yukon, and I was like, come on. Like, they just won twice. Like, come on, let's. Like, I wasn't. I wasn't talking to him or anything. Like, I was. I'd only met him once, but I was like, oh, man, this would be really, really good. If he came here, obviously. And then I remember seeing it. The slam thing or whatever.
- [128:20]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [128:21]
Con Canippo
In class in the morning. I was like, let's go. This is gonna be awesome.
- [128:26]
Bill Simmons
Well, you Had a crazy class of. I guess it's 20, 24, but just like an unusually loaded class of dudes. Like, even if you go back and you look at the ESPN Top Hundred and some of the guys are like five guys with 96 ratings or above, the two rucker guys or Rutgers guys are in there, Edgecomb's in there. And you probably have been playing against a bunch of these guys since what age? Like 15, 16.
- [128:53]
Con Canippo
Yeah. Once you get. Yeah, like sophomore, freshman, sophomore year.
- [128:56]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. So when. What were your initial impressions of some of these dudes? As you're like at these big tournaments and you know, it's like, oh, there's Dylan Harper. I've heard about him.
- [129:07]
Con Canippo
Yeah. So I played, I think I played Dylan Harper once. And yeah, we put him once. So we actually, we actually beat them and they, they ended up being really good and made the final four of like the Nike circuit. But my team was the, My team was a team that I think we were 500, but my team was a team, like we'd beat like a really good team like them and then go and lose to the worst team.
- [129:28]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [129:29]
Con Canippo
My, my, my junior year, we weren't very good. But I remember playing him.
- [129:34]
Bill Simmons
Was there anybody that blew you away?
- [129:37]
Con Canippo
I remember Vijay. Like I saw BJ play at a camp and I'm like, this guy just can fly. Like it was.
- [129:43]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [129:44]
Con Canippo
Remember being really impressed with him. Obviously Cooper played against him a couple times because he just has such a unique game.
- [129:50]
Chris Vernon
Yeah.
- [129:51]
Con Canippo
Where like in high school, like he wasn't a great. I think he got to the point at Duke where he was like a very good three point shooter.
- [129:57]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [129:59]
Con Canippo
But like he wasn't like a good shooter. And like earlier in high school, like at least from three, it was like all mid range. It was just like interesting to watch him play. And I'm like, he's so effective. He's can't even came and shoot like that. But he just had a crate. Obviously the wingspan and all that. It was just like a very interesting game. High motor.
- [130:18]
Chris Vernon
Yeah.
- [130:20]
Bill Simmons
I didn't ever go against him.
- [130:23]
Con Canippo
I never saw, I never saw Ace Bailey. Never played against him because he was. I think he was an Adidas. He's on the Adidas circuit. So, you know, you don't really cross paths with guys.
- [130:33]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. It's so funny. You have these circuits with the different shoes where you don't even see the guys.
- [130:39]
Con Canippo
Yeah, it's weird. It's definitely weird. And it's all political too, so, you know. Yeah, they get, they get pissed off about it, but I don't remember seeing him. I remember Derek Queen. Derek Queen was like, at the camps. All the camps and stuff. Like, it's hard to have a big. Like, some teams don't have a big. At these camps. And so he. Like, I remember we playing him and he had most. At 30, just, like, nobody could stop him. He's really good. He's super skilled.
- [131:07]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. It's funny, at those camp. Those camps are like just basically giant pickup games. So the point guards always come out good because they have the ball, the time, the shooters. Like, you come out great because you're going to just hit open shots. And then if there's a big guy who can wreak havoc, that's the other one who's going to jump out. And then everybody else has to kind of figure out how to fit in. In the.
- [131:26]
Con Canippo
Right.
- [131:26]
Bill Simmons
In the. In the circumstances.
- [131:28]
Con Canippo
Yeah, they aren't. They aren't the best circumstances to. For. For everybody, but they're definitely. You know, it's a different type of environment. So I think that's actually the NBA 100 camp. That's when Duke first saw me.
- [131:42]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [131:44]
Con Canippo
And, you know, those things can actually. Can actually matter, which is weird because it's not always very good basketball.
- [131:51]
Bill Simmons
So have you thought about, like, well, what's the girlfriend situation? Who's going to be at the draft with you? What do you got going? Who's the entourage? Who do we have to look for?
- [132:02]
Con Canippo
Yeah. So I get six people at the table, so that's my whole family. I got four little brothers.
- [132:09]
Bill Simmons
Four little brothers.
- [132:11]
Con Canippo
Yeah.
- [132:11]
Bill Simmons
Oh, my God.
- [132:13]
Con Canippo
Yep.
- [132:14]
Bill Simmons
All right.
- [132:15]
Con Canippo
Yeah. So plus the two parents.
- [132:16]
Bill Simmons
There you go.
- [132:17]
Con Canippo
Plus two parents. So that's my table. And then my cousin is coming, my girlfriend, one of my best buddies from. From the team at Duke, and then my uncle, who actually gave me your book for Christmas, so.
- [132:30]
Bill Simmons
Oh, I like that guy.
- [132:31]
Con Canippo
Yep. Yeah, he's great. Yeah. He played in the NBA for a little bit.
- [132:36]
Bill Simmons
Did he really?
- [132:37]
Con Canippo
Yeah. Appeared in 13 games for the Bucks.
- [132:41]
Bill Simmons
He's got a basketball reference page.
- [132:43]
Con Canippo
Yeah. Jeff Nordgaard.
- [132:45]
Bill Simmons
Wow. I vaguely remember that name.
- [132:49]
Con Canippo
Yeah. Yeah. He was in the. He likes to claim he's in. He's in the 96 draft, so he's like, I was part of the best draft class ever.
- [132:58]
Bill Simmons
It's me, Kobe.
- [133:00]
Chris Vernon
Yeah.
- [133:02]
Bill Simmons
What's the suit situation? You thought about it? Thought about colors like that. You're not that far away now.
- [133:10]
Con Canippo
Yeah. Navy blue suit, navy tie, white shirt. I'm not. That's not my cup of tea. Really. So I got a lot of help from my mom and from the agent and all that, but I'm not. It won't seem like Grady Dick or anything.
- [133:25]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, he was trying to make a.
- [133:26]
Con Canippo
Statement, so it seems that looked good.
- [133:30]
Bill Simmons
Maybe he still does. It seems like you're a Giant basketball fan, though, which it feels like with NBA players, they go one of two ways. Either they're in the league because they're good at basketball, but they don't really know what's going on. And then there's other people who are like, no, no, I'm actually a student. It's a big deal for me to be playing against, so. And so I followed his whole career. But it seems like you're in that camp.
- [133:51]
Con Canippo
Yeah, absolutely. Like, this whole process here has been really awesome to, you know, like, my uncle is kind of a big influence, and, like, he knows all. All these players. And. Yeah, we used to talk. We used to talk about basketball all the time. But this. This process has been really cool because you're meeting all these former players. Like, when I was at the combine, I was in the elevator with, like, Brian Cardinal, and I'm like, oh, this is awesome. The janitor. Like, this is stupid stuff like that. Or like, I was. My interview with okc and Nick Collison's in there, so it would be random guys like that. That I. That's really cool for me. And then you obviously, like, the meeting. Meeting the. The All Stars and like, the guys I've crossed paths with at Duke is like, Paulo and stuff like that is really cool. But, yeah, I just love hoops and it's been awesome to fall and all that. All the NBA player stuff is something I've always gravitated towards.
- [134:46]
Bill Simmons
Wait, so there was an interview with okc that must have been before they didn't get the seventh pick.
- [134:51]
Con Canippo
Yes, well. Well, at the combine, there's, like, you interview for, like.
- [134:56]
Bill Simmons
Oh, you're just talking to Everybody. Yeah.
- [134:58]
Con Canippo
Like, 14 teams. So they kind of request you, and then it's both. They request you before it's determined. Before the. The lottery.
- [135:06]
Bill Simmons
Right. All right. I'm not going to ask you what team you're rooting to get picked, because the. The correct answer is, it's just going to be great to be drafted. I've always wanted to be in the NBA. Any team will be awesome. I love every American city. Every city sounds great. I love Charlotte. Be great to be near Duke. Washington. I've always wanted to go there. Utah looks awesome. I'll take up skiing. Yeah, you Just go through them. Through them all.
- [135:36]
Con Canippo
Yeah, I. You definitely, definitely can't give any leeway there.
- [135:40]
Bill Simmons
But I personally, I don't mean to make this awkward, but I. I personally think you make a ton of sense for Charlotte.
- [135:48]
Con Canippo
It.
- [135:48]
Bill Simmons
And I would be surprised if. Just for what they need, if they're going to keep their. Their nucleus together. I could just see you on that team. But it's going to be. You'll be somewhere in that three to seven. I don't think it goes past seven would be my guess. But all of those teams I feel like you'd play for. New Orleans might be the only weird one because they have a bunch of guards, but, you know, whatever. Just keep working. Rebound. Don't forget to grab those rebounds. Get in there, get. Pad the box score.
- [136:19]
Con Canippo
Yeah, absolutely.
- [136:20]
Bill Simmons
Keep. Keep.
- [136:22]
Con Canippo
I was, I was mad this year. I mean, like, we got. Because I was. I was obviously a good rebounder in high school. It means easier when you're the big. When you're a big guy. But like I was. I would always get pissed because we had Seon James out there, the six. Five. He gets mad when everybody calls him a linebacker, but he's huge. Yeah, he rebounds. And then you got Cooper and. Come on, it's like those guys steal everything. Yeah, it's like I get four or whatever and it's like, man, maybe I. I'd have six if Caleb Foster's in there and Sion has a.
- [136:58]
Bill Simmons
You know, Caleb Foster was an LA kid who I thought was awesome in high school. And I still feel like, I don't know, I'm. I'm holding my stock for him. I still feel like you should. Something. Yeah, there's something there with him.
- [137:11]
Con Canippo
Him.
- [137:12]
Bill Simmons
He had some really, really good. Because the LA high school scene was crazy and you know, that's where Jared McCain came out of and a bunch of people. But I thought. I just thought he was really good in high school.
- [137:21]
Con Canippo
Yeah, no, he's. He's a super, super hard worker. So I think you guys should expect big things from him this year. He's a really, really good player. Really good kid. And so it says something about him coming back too. You don't see that a lot. You don't see that a lot anymore in college. So I think. I think he'll have a big year this year.
- [137:42]
Bill Simmons
What's the Coach K. How often does he kind of hang around the dude like that? Does he just show up randomly? Like, how many times did you interact with him?
- [137:51]
Con Canippo
I interacted with him a little. Pretty decent. Amount, actually. Yeah, he's, he's awesome, but he's not. He tries to give like obviously the new staff his space, their space and whatever. But, but he's up still on the sixth floor. So there's six floors, all the coaches are on the fifth floor. And then he's got his office on the sixth floor. Oh, look at that over. Yeah, it's, it's, it's pretty funny. But yeah, he, he came to practice probably a couple times he came, he came and talked to us before the season. But you'll see him in there getting his workout in, doing his, doing his dips and his pull ups. But he's, he's great. He's. He's super funny. He's got a really dry sense of humor.
- [138:34]
Bill Simmons
He'll drop some F bombs every once in a while.
- [138:37]
Con Canippo
Oh yeah, a little bit. But he's, he's great. He's. He's a good resource. Obviously. He's one of the best resources to have for basketball stuff in the world. Yeah. So I've, I've enjoyed all my conversations that I got to have with him.
- [138:52]
Bill Simmons
All right, so big picture, keep a, keep a low profile as a rookie, right? No, no, no concan nipple news, Nothing you want to. You stay out of all the blogs. Just, just playing hard, making, making shit happen. Hitting some threes. No player podcast for at least two years.
- [139:13]
Con Canippo
Yeah, I'm not doing that.
- [139:14]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, push that on the side. Don't worry about that.
- [139:16]
Con Canippo
I like listening.
- [139:17]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Yeah. You don't need to do maybe, maybe much later in your career. I'm trying to think what else? Well, plus it's gonna take everybody like half a year to realize how to pronounce your name because you have like a deceiving name. Because it looks like it should be knipple, but it's Knipple. So you're gonna have a lot of mispronunciations coming outta the gate then. People get used to that. But then I think the big moment will be when you go against Clay and how that interaction goes. Does he be like, hey man, I've been following you. Good luck, man. You remind me a lot of me back in the day. Like one of those to try to psych you out and then he'll put on like 20 on you in the first half.
- [139:54]
Con Canippo
In the first quarter? Probably, yeah.
- [139:57]
Bill Simmons
He'll try to rope a dope you with some sort of compliment and then. Yeah, which, which guy are you the most excited to go against? Just from like I'd grown up as a Basketball fan just being on the same court with somebody.
- [140:09]
Con Canippo
No, it's probably Steph or LeBron.
- [140:11]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I would imagine.
- [140:12]
Con Canippo
Yeah. Like. Like, that's. I mean, for me, that's like peak basketball. I'm in, like, middle school for those four finals in a row.
- [140:21]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [140:21]
Con Canippo
And that's like, those are like when LeBron had the 20. Whole 2018 run, even though they didn't have a chance. Like, he was awesome. And then obviously the 3:1 stuff. But yeah, probably those guys and then Giannis in there. And I just want to see what it's like to play against Jokic too, like, how horrible that is because he's.
- [140:42]
Bill Simmons
I don't think it's fun.
- [140:44]
Con Canippo
Yeah, I mean, he just seems like he's. The fact that he took OKC to seven is incredible. Like, I just. After watching OKC in the Western Conference finals and so far in the finals, it's like, man, that guy is so good.
- [140:59]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Well, do you think Cooper on Dallas, do you think that team can be good right away? Like him and Davis, Kyrie comes back. Are you expecting them to be, like, immediately good?
- [141:10]
Con Canippo
Yeah, I think so. I. Because it'll be weird. I mean, I don't know who's gonna guard. Like. Is Cooper getting the, like, third best defender?
- [141:21]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [141:22]
Con Canippo
You know what I mean? Like, that. That's a good. Really good situation to come into as a rookie. And I think it'll be able to let him have the ball and his be able to play make and, you know, Kyrie's gonna have the ball in his hands. Davis is gonna have his ball. The ball in his hands. But. But I really think Cooper, That'll be a really good spot for him right away, at least to be able to come in, contribute in a big way. And then it'll be. I think it'll be on a good team. Like, that's where it's not just like, you know, empty calories for. For a team that is. Isn't really maybe not going anywhere, but I think. I think that'll. That'll fuel his fire, you know?
- [141:58]
Bill Simmons
Well, what's interesting is it's a. It's a weird team for him, but not really because I feel like he actually could defend threes. Like, if they played him in a center and Davis all together, he could actually pull it off. It doesn't seem like that would be the best way to use him, but he could definitely do it. And now you have like, all this size in a league where everybody's trying to go smaller, and that would be like A to play against, when you.
- [142:21]
Con Canippo
Think about it, especially if it's like, it's lively.
- [142:25]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [142:26]
Con Canippo
You know, like, it's lively. Who can move? AD can move.
- [142:30]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [142:31]
Con Canippo
And Cooper obviously is super fluid, so, like, it could have some, like, dangerous, like, switching.
- [142:36]
Bill Simmons
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [142:38]
Con Canippo
Like, it'll be very interesting to see.
- [142:40]
Bill Simmons
Well, and then the stuff he started to do at Duke, even as the season went along, where they were initiating the offense through him and he was point forwarding, you know, some of these plays, which is basically what happened with Tatum with the Celtics over the course of he. They weren't doing that with him at all in 2018, and around, you know, early 2000 and 20s, it started happening more, and then by 22, he was really comfortable with it, and it seems like Cooper was comfortable with it right away. It's something, you know, that's going to be a next step for you, too, trying to figure out can we run offense through him versus always having to run them off, Right?
- [143:17]
Con Canippo
Yeah, definitely. I mean, as a player, you want to be able to contribute in as many facets of the game as you can. But I think definitely for me going forward, like, I played a lot in ball screens this year, but that's something I want to get. Get better at. And then for Cooper, for Cooper going forward, I think it's something that comes pretty naturally to him and will be like, if you watch the Pacers, they have so many guys that can initiate offense, and that's what makes them so dangerous and how they can play so fast. So I think that's probably where the game is going to keep going.
- [143:45]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I do feel like it's some new version of basketball. I was thinking that when I was. Nobody had the ball for too long. Everybody was cutting and moving and multiple guys on each team were trying to create plays. Like as the initiator versus the basketball we've had forever where it's one guy, everybody stands around one guy, one come, one pickup.
- [144:08]
Con Canippo
Jackson backing everybody down.
- [144:10]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Three guys are just standing in their spots, and it feels like this is a more fun version. I don't know how many teams are going to be able to play that style. Style, but we'll see. All right, well, I'm glad you have a good head on your shoulders. I'm glad we'll put that picture on social. You reading my book when you were a kid? Because that really cracked me up. That book has some inappropriate words and jokes in there, so I'm glad I was able to corrupt you.
- [144:36]
Con Canippo
It definitely does. It's probably not for the 10 year old years or whatever I was. But I'm glad, especially with all the pop culture references and that stuff. Stuff. That stuff too. Me and my dad's favorite is the rewatchables, so.
- [144:49]
Bill Simmons
Oh good. What was your, what was your favorite episode? Or did you have like a favorite movie? We did.
- [144:57]
Con Canippo
I mean I, I really enjoy when Kyle Brand song with you. So I'd probably say like Rudy, the Rudy episode, because that's one of my favorites.
- [145:06]
Bill Simmons
Oh good. Yeah.
- [145:08]
Con Canippo
Yeah. I mean my dad, my dad's listening to it all the time. Like he goes, whatever, he's doing yard work, getting some shots up or something. He's got the headphones in listening to the real watchables.
- [145:17]
Bill Simmons
Oh, that's great to hear. Tell him. Thank you. Good luck. I hope you, I hope wherever you land, I'm sure it's going to work out. But I hope it would be fun to see you on a team where you could contribute and play right away and keep working your ass off. But thanks for coming on though. I'm rooting for you.
- [145:35]
Con Canippo
Yeah, I really appreciate it. Thank you.
- [145:36]
Bill Simmons
All right. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Eduardo and Geha. We are really putting it through the ringer this week. Week, no pun intended. I'm going to be back on Thursday night after game six. Me and Zach Lowe and Rob Mahoney. It's probably going to be an Oklahoma City title because Tyrese Halberton is hurt, which we cover with Doc Rivers on Monday night. But that will be live on YouTube as well in the Bill Simmons channel. So I will see you on Thursday night. We must be 21 plus in president select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + in President D.C. gambling problem. Call 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-50 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York.