The Invincible OKC, Knicks Nirvana, and Acceptable Giannis Trades With Zach Lowe, Ariel Helwani, Sean Fennessey, and Ben Thompson

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Bill Simmons Podcast – "The Invincible OKC, Knicks Nirvana, and Acceptable Giannis Trades"

Episode Details:

• Title: The Invincible OKC, Knicks Nirvana, and Acceptable Giannis Trades
• Host: Bill Simmons, The Ringer
• Guests: Zach Lowe, Ariel Helwani, Sean Fennessey, Ben Thompson
• Release Date: May 21, 2025

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1. Tribute to George Wendt and Celebrating Supporting Characters

Duration: [00:00 – 8:12]

Bill Simmons opens the episode with a heartfelt tribute to George Wendt, best known for his iconic role as Norm Peterson on Cheers. He reminisces about Norm's impact on the show and his legacy as a stellar supporting character.

Notable Quote:

Bill Simmons [07:28]: "Norm is like, I think the number one example of it. There's some other one everybody has. If it's generational, you know, the shows you like."

2. Game 1 Analysis: OKC vs. Minnesota with Zach Lowe

Duration: [8:13 – 30:13]

The primary segment features an in-depth analysis of Game 1 between the Oklahoma City Thunder (OKC) and the Minnesota Timberwolves. Zach Lowe provides expert insights into OKC's formidable defense, highlighting their ability to disrupt opponents consistently.

Key Discussion Points:

• OKC's Defensive Prowess: Lowe emphasizes that OKC's defense remains the most consistent in the playoffs, making it exceedingly difficult for teams like Minnesota to score.

  Notable Quote:

  Zach Lowe [06:25]: "The most consistent unit, let's call it left in the playoffs, is Oklahoma City's defense. Every single night."

• Minnesota's Struggles: The conversation delves into Minnesota's high turnover rate and poor three-point shooting, which were pivotal in OKC's victory.

  Notable Quote:

  Zach Lowe [12:34]: "Hard to win in the NBA in 20, 25 when the other team takes 30 more threes than you."

• Player Performances: Discussion about key players like Mike Conley, Kenrich Williams, and Evan Mobley. Williams' unexpected impact came as a surprise, while Mobley's potential trade is critically examined.

  Notable Quote:

  Zach Lowe [08:12]: "He was plus 19 in nine minutes, made every shot that he took. Unbelievable."

3. Giannis Antetokounmpo Trade Debate with Ben Thompson

Duration: [30:14 – 50:55]

Ben Thompson joins the conversation to challenge Bill Simmons on the topic of trading Giannis Antetokounmpo. Thompson vehemently opposes the idea, arguing that Giannis is undervalued and essential to the Milwaukee Bucks' success.

Key Discussion Points:

• Complexity of Trading Giannis: Thompson outlines the challenges and potential fallout of trading a superstar like Giannis, emphasizing his unparalleled impact on the court.

  Notable Quote:

  Ben Thompson [41:22]: "I mean the reality is if I'm going to take all emotion out of it, it's probably best for both parties, you know, to, to move on."

• Impact on the Bucks: The implications for the Bucks’ future if Giannis were traded, including financial constraints and the loss of a championship cornerstone.

  Notable Quote:

  Ben Thompson [107:31]: "The Bucks need. It's a small market team. Like you're not going to get a bunch. You're not going to think."

• Trade Essentials: Thompson discusses what a viable trade would entail, stressing the necessity of acquiring top-tier talent or significant draft picks in return.

  Notable Quote:

  Ben Thompson [123:04]: "The play is San Antonio, which is disgusting to me. They have a huge stash of picks."

4. Knicks' Playoff Glory with Ariel Helwani and Sean Fennessey

Duration: [50:55 – 100:55]

As the Knicks surge into the Eastern Conference Finals, Ariel Helwani and Sean Fennessey join Bill Simmons to celebrate this historic achievement. They reflect on the team's transformation, key performances, and the emotional journey for fans.

Key Discussion Points:

• Historic Victory Over Boston: The guests express elation over the Knicks' upset against the defending champions, the Boston Celtics, marking a significant milestone after a long playoff drought.

  Notable Quote:

  Sean Fennessey [57:25]: "We just kicked Boston's ass, man. That was amazing. That was genuinely beautiful."

• Star Players: Highlighting the contributions of Jalen Brunson, Josh Allen, Karl-Anthony Towns, and Mitchell Robinson in propelling the Knicks forward.

  Notable Quote:

  Ariel Helwani [58:30]: "Jalen is the. I'm so lucky to grow up in an era where Jalen Brunson and Josh Allen are my two guys."

• Fan Engagement and Legacy: Discussing the positive atmosphere among Knicks fans, intergenerational support, and the overall excitement surrounding the team's potential.

  Notable Quote:

  Ariel Helwani [65:30]: "This has been an unbelievable run. This is a likable team. This is a fun team."

• Future Prospects: Speculation on the Knicks' chances in the Eastern Conference Finals against the Indiana Pacers, considering factors like team health and player performances.

  Notable Quote:

  Bill Simmons [97:50]: "We're going to talk to Oklahoma City fans. If they end up getting it, then congratulations. If they don't, let's talk in a decade."

5. UFC Movie Discussion and Additional Insights

Duration: [100:55 – End]

Ariel Helwani shifts the conversation towards an upcoming UFC movie starring Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson, discussing its potential impact and relation to classic combat sports documentaries.

Key Discussion Points:

• "Smashing Machine" Movie: Ariel Helwani elaborates on the film's premise, centered around Mark Kerr, and its faithful representation of the early 2000s MMA scene.

  Notable Quote:

  Ariel Helwani [88:57]: "It's based on, in my opinion, one of, if not the best combat sports documentaries of all time."

• The State of MMA in Media: Discussion on the current landscape of MMA in mainstream media, audience growth, and the potential for future combat sports films.

  Notable Quote:

  Ariel Helwani [94:05]: "There are no AWEs to UFC's WWE right now. Not even close."

• Celebrity Interactions: Light-hearted banter about celebrity fans, iconic moments, and the cultural significance of sports figures like Charles Oakley and others.

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Concluding Remarks

The episode wraps up with reflections on the dynamic nature of NBA playoffs, the emotional highs of the Knicks' success, and critical analyses of pivotal NBA trades and strategies. Bill Simmons teases future episodes, including discussions on high-stakes trades and athlete performances.

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Overall Insights:

• Defensive Strategies: OKC's defense continues to be a significant barrier for playoff contenders, demonstrating the importance of a robust defensive lineup in the postseason.

• Team Dynamics: The Knicks' resurgence underscores the impact of effective team building, leadership, and the emergence of key players who elevate the entire squad.

• Trade Implications: The debate over trading superstars like Giannis highlights the intricate balance teams must maintain between immediate success and long-term sustainability.

• Cultural Impact: The episode also touches on the broader cultural elements of sports, including tributes to beloved characters and the intersection of sports with media and entertainment.

Useful for Listeners: This comprehensive summary provides an engaging overview of the podcast episode, capturing the essence of the discussions and analyses. It serves as a valuable resource for those who seek to understand the key narratives and expert opinions without listening to the entire episode.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

You're listening and watching the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel, our friends America's number one sportsbook, and they've made it easier than ever to get in on the action during an NBA playoff game. Even after a tip off. Just look for the live SGP tab on the FanDuel Sportsbook app and build your own bet slip. Then sit back, relax, track the outcome of your parlay right in the app. And if you don't already have it, download the FanDuel app today to make every moment more the Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end episode for additional details. Must be 21 + on President Select States gaming problem, call 100 GAMBLER visit rg-help.com Coming up, a ton of basketball. A whiff of UFC, a whiff of Giannis trades. Action packed pod next. This episode is presented by State Farm. On the basketball court, the best players know when to pass, and off the court you still need teammates who are there when it counts. That's where State Farm comes in with agents to help you find coverage that's right for you. You can focus on what really matters, whether that's hitting game winners or just getting through the day like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. State Farm coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network where I put up a new rewatchables for you. On Monday night we did Close Encounters of the Third Kind as part of Big Ass. It couldn't have gone better. I had a great time. You can watch it on The Ringer Moves YouTube channel. You can watch it as a video podcast on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey on FanDuel on FanDuel sportsbook I am going to be doing another episode of Tail or Fade which I have won the last two weeks in a row. We're going to be doing Carl Anthony Towns under 24 and a half points and you get a little 50% profit boost on that. All kinds of good stuff. So go check out FanDuel Sportsbook on Wednesday. Coming up on this podcast going to talk to Zach Lowe About Game 1 OKC Minnesota at the top going to talk to Ariel Hawani and Sean Fennesee, two long suffering Knicks fans who always come on this podcast to talk about the Knicks when things are going bad. So I thought it was only fair to bring them on when things are Going good. But we had to balance that out with a guy whose team is going bad, Ben Thompson, who is going to yell at me about my Giannis Mobley trade idea and tell me where Giannis should actually go. So we got a lot going on in this podcast. Wanted to say RIP to George Wendt, who played Norm Peterson on Cheers and did a whole bunch of other good stuff, too. He was a great SNL host. He was in a bunch of movies. But Norm became, I think, a big part of his legacy. Cheers was one of my favorite shows ever. I was almost ready to say it was my favorite show ever, but I don't even know. Now that I'm older, it's really hard to have a favorite show ever. But you definitely have that top, top list of most favorites, most shows you love the most. And I love Cheers so much. And I just thought, Norm, when you talk about the great supporting characters, which I think is a little different than a star of a show, you think Seinfeld. Seinfeld was the star of Seinfeld, but I think George and Elaine were also stars. And then Kramer was, at least for the first few years, the kind of supporting character, sidekick. And he was awesome. But it's so hard to pull that off, to thread the needle when you're not like one of the biggest stars of the show, but you're still awesome. And Norm is like, I think the number one example of it. There's some other one everybody has. If it's generational, you know, the shows you like. For me, it's the shows that I grew up watching in the 70s and the 80s. You're always gonna lean toward those. And if somebody's younger than me, Maybe it's the 90s or 2000s. If they're older than me, maybe it's the 50s, 60s. But for me, it was like Norm and Stanley Roper and Vinnie Barberino. There was all these supporting characters who just would crush it every time they came on television. And Norm was the best. And Norm was so good that there's long YouTube entrances of just all the times he would walk into the bar and have some joke off of Sam's thing. And then I thought it was notable that in the final episode, which is still the most watched TV show, I think, of the last 40 years, it was like 80 million people watched it. The last two minutes of the show are Norm and Sam closing down the bar for that night. And Norm has a poignant comment, and he walks off. And there's a reason they did it that way. So When I think of the best character guys in 30 minute shows and it's him, it's not a long list. It really isn't. Mr. Roper from Three's Company. I always loved people that just every time they were in a scene, they owned it. And that's happening less or less now when I know, like Everybody Loves Raymond. I wasn't, wasn't like a religious watcher at that show. But Brad Garrett's character I think was always like that. It's really, it's a hard needle to thread where you just come in and you kill it every time. But I really thought he was just amazing. So anyway, I was sad today. He died at 76. One of my favorite TV supporting actors and gave us one of the great characters we've ever had in a sitcom. Anyway, rip to him. All right, coming up, we're going to talk to Zach Lowe and let's bring in our friends from Pearl jam. It is 8:13 Pacific Time. Zach Lowe stayed up late tonight. I was kind of deep down hoping we were going to get a really fun Timberwolves OKC game one. And then for about a quarter and a half, it felt like we were heading that way. And then OKC does the thing that they do from time to time where their defense just shifts it shape shifters, they just turn it up a different way. And then all of a sudden the game's over and you're like, what happened? How Is this an 18 point game? It was just, they were just up by two a second ago and that was it. So I don't know. You take anything away from this or is it just typical game one?

[Zach Lowe]

Well, first of all, the Wolves are ahead by four points halfway through the third quarter. Mike Conley had a little, had a little flurry. Little flurry. Mike Conley hit a 3. It was 60 to 56 with 7:22 left. But look, I said this before the series. I picked Thunder in six. Don't feel any better. I guess I have to feel slightly better about that pick. But the bottom line is this. The most consistent unit, let's call it left in the playoffs, is Oklahoma City's defense. Every single night. They're going to be an absolute bear to score on them. No one has really found an answer at any point of the season. Denver did pretty well against them in the regular season. Spoiler alert. That did not last until playoffs. Even with the best player in the world.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Trying every trick he has and they just reach a frenzy and you know, like Julius Randle posting up it's just like, watch out. Like, where is it? Where's the hell Is there any help coming from? Is Lou Dork going to pull the chair? Where are the arm there? Just arms everywhere. And you know, look, 17 turnovers doesn't sound that bad for Minnesota. I mean, it's not great, but it doesn't sound that bad. Thirteen of those were steals. And that plus a free throw margin that is even and or slightly an edge to Oklahoma. Oklahoma City is just. The Wolves are dead on arrival against this defense. If those stats trend that way.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it felt like this was the game about 30, 40 minutes and it's like, all right, they're going to get this one if they're going to get a game right. Everything's going well. Rando's playing out of his ass and OKC looked nervous and OKC looked a little tired from maybe that 7 gamer. And it was interesting when Ken Rich Williams came in.

[Zach Lowe]

Love it. Kenny Hustle, baby.

[Bill Simmons]

Unbelievable. Like, would he have been the fifth best Nugget? Where do you have him ranked on Nuggets? Could he have played 35 minutes a game for the Nuggets?

[Zach Lowe]

He was plus 19 in nine minutes, made every shot that he took. Unbelievable.

[Bill Simmons]

So when he did that, I'm like, is this a tactical move or did he extend the bench today because he was worried his team was a little worn out or what's going on? And did he lose faith in Caruso all of a sudden? And then Caruso came in and played one of the great stretches he's had in the playoffs. That was. That answered that question.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, Caruso was making threes guarding Randle, as I think everyone was reminded that, oh yeah, he's going to guard Randle when he guarded Jokic at the end of the series. And Kenrich Williams, he's like a beloved guy there. You know, for years they've been saying he's going to be Nick Collison 2.0 for us. He's just going to be a lifer here. We love him. He's about all the right things. Hadn't really done much in the playoffs. In the real playoffs. I'm not going to count the Memphis series. It's a cool moment. He may not do much from here on out, but that's a big. That was a big stretch of basketball for him.

[Bill Simmons]

It was a cool moment, was he had a big three, too. So the things I was worried about heading into this game. What are we getting from Mike Conley, who's old going against this gauntlet? You called On Sunday's pod or Monday's pod, you said you thought OKC's defense is now going way up there. I want to see it for four rounds because I'm still licking my wounds from jumping the gun with Minnesota last year when they look good in round two. And all of a sudden I was comparing them to the 89 pistons. So I'm just. I have the training wheels on for all defense takes in these playoffs. But I, you know, the bones are there. I think what makes them special is the different looks and how they can do the big and small, how they can put like a. We're just going to try to get a lot of steals lineup. They have looks like a football team that I don't really remember seeing. I guess the, you know, you go Back to the 89 Pistons and teams of that ilk that could kind of change their look depending on what you had. They're on pace. But what they did today is they do it over and over again. They just go on these runs and they're defense fueled, which is so unusual in the league. Right. The runs that we usually have in the league are threes or somebody getting hot. This team can have runs based on steals and pressure and picking up guys at half court. That one sequence I know, you know what I'm about to say, When Edwards was bringing the ball up and Caruso kind of jumped on him and then he almost lost. He almost fell over for a backcourt just because of the pressure and then got it back and then just like launched a terrible three. Nobody else is doing that in the league. And I think that's what makes them special is they just throw things defensively. They're like, I've not seen that anywhere.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, they have a couple every game where it's just, oh, the guy just either fell over along the sideline under pressure, bringing the ball up or dribbled the ball off his foot or. I don't quite know what happened. I to watch the replay to see what went haywire here. But you mentioned different looks and you know, I was talking about this before the series we saw. I said it's going to be a safer series to play Chet as the only big guy on the floor. They were afraid to do it against Denver very much and they did it a lot today. Hartenstein only played 20 minutes and Chet was awesome. I mean, it doesn't jump off the stat sheet, you know, 1573. I just thought he made the kind of plays he needs to make on offense for them to win the Championship. For them to win 16 playoff games, going to have to hit some threes. He had just one, but he was one of one. Some tough twos, some good takes around the basket. And just. He's. They have him guarding either McDaniels or a little bit Gobert, never Julius Randle. They're like, we're. We're just keeping you away from that matchup. He's going to bulldoze you.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. He's saving your sternum and your ribs.

[Ben Thompson]

He's.

[Zach Lowe]

We're going to make you. We're going to preserve you as a help defender a lot. And he's just everywhere. Like, there was that one play where he had. He switched on to Divincenzo in the right corner because the Wolves kind of moved around their offense a little bit. And Devon Chub's like, cool. I'll just drive baseline and see what happens. And what happens is Chet's like, you're just going to eat the basketball for dinner. How's that? How's that feel? He was. He was awesome. And then we saw them close the game. I mean, the game was already kind of closed, but with no bigs on the floor. They went to their sort of all wing, all guard, switch, everything. Good luck figuring this thing out. Lineup. And you know, they have a little bit more lineup flexibility, I think, in this series than they did against Denver. And Look, Minnesota had 88 points. 88 points. And I think, I guess we gotta talk about the threes, right?

[Bill Simmons]

15 of 51, 50 threes. 88 points is never a good ratio.

[Zach Lowe]

Hard to win in the NBA in 20, 25 when the other team takes 30 more threes than you. And yet they won running away. And the tracking data nerds are already flagging it. They're already awaiting the second Spectrum data tomorrow. Did Minnesota underperform their expected shot variation by. Was this just a shot luck game? And I'll be interested to see what. What that data actually says because they missed some good ones, but, man, they make you take. First of all, no defense is better at helping. Making you think you're open and then flying back at you while another guy stunts at you. So at least there's like stuff happening in your line of sight. And by the way, the guy flying at me has gigantic arms and he's really fast and he's like 23 years old and at the peak of his. His athleticism. And a lot of them watching in real time. And we're doing this right after the game. I haven't gone back and rewatched them yet. They felt like long threes and a lot like early in the shot clock threes. And even the ones that are decent and 29ft early in the shot clock are long and have the feel of like, well, I better shoot this one now. Cause it's pretty good and we, we ain't getting anything better than this. I'm letting it fly. And you know, I, I thought for the most part a lot of those threes were like decently contested. And for a lot of this game, it was Minnesota missing tough threes and Oklahoma City missing tough twos. And I think what should scare Minnesota a little bit is Oklahoma City started getting easier twos and making more of the twos as the game went on.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. Well, if you're Minnesota, the one thing you're going to come out of the game is we have to get a better whistle on these SGA calls.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, they were furious the whole game. I mean, they were, they were furious going into the game, which is always kind of a bad sign if you're already like on edge about it. It's. It's like you're, you're. It feels like you're my. You just got to chill out a little bit. Accept that it's going to be bad. But yeah, Dill, I'm sure some clips will be sent to the league office between games one and two.

[Bill Simmons]

Deservedly. Look, I, you know, I tweeted this in real time and I never tweet during games usually, but I just thought Shay and I don't, I don't care. I didn't, I didn't bet on the game. I didn't really care who won. I just hope we have a long, fun series. But I feel like Shay is getting this whistle that nobody else in the playoffs is getting where there's little touch fouls or these bumps where you're not even sure who initiated the bumps, and he's just getting it. And I think with Minnesota, you can see this. You saw it in the Lakers series. You saw in the last series, McDaniels can just have four or five fouls immediately, and you don't even know what happened. And when, when he has fouls. I think Minnesota is a different team because he's kind of. He's their swing guy. Every team has a swing guy. I feel like he's their swing guy. And once you put foul trouble on him and he's not as, not as aggressive, it's. Then it comes down to, like, is ant? Or, you know, are the threes going to go in or is Ant going to go nuts? The bench guys were also really bad and there's a, there's officially a Nas Reed storyline that's developed where he's been bad for three weeks now where he hasn't looked like this guy. Like when they, when they really got hot. When Randall was out, I think it was like February range and he was like 20 to 25 a night and you know, seven, eight rebounds a game and was like really impactful. I don't think he's figured out how to impact the team now that Randall is looking like Randall and Today he was 1 for 11. Obviously it's about as bad as it's going to get, but you do that. Alexander Walker's three for 11 and, and Dante was three for 14. They're not really built to survive three shit bench games, right? Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Five of 28 on threes combined for those three guys. First of all, 28 threes for three bench guys. That's almost an accomplishment in and of itself. Like you're almost having three bench guys take 10 threes aps. And you said that about.

[Bill Simmons]

Even Missoula is like, I don't know, that's a lot.

[Zach Lowe]

I thought, I thought Missoula would be like in like the jungles of the Amazon by now.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he probably is. He doesn't have cable right now. He has no cable. No streaming right now.

[Zach Lowe]

You know, you said that about Naz Reed and it seemed like a little unfair to me because in my head, I mean, it's like been a while since the Wolves played. In my head I'm like, he's had some pretty good games. I'm looking back, last three games against Golden State, all single digits. First two he had 30 combined. And then two single digit games against the Lakers. A really good game. One which maybe is the one that's sticking in my head. But since then, very quiet, very quiet. And win or lose this series and whatever, obviously Minnesota and their new ownership is going to have some big financial decisions to make and he's a big one.

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't realize we were going there already.

[Ariel Helwani]

No, we're not. We're not.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm just saying you brought.

[Bill Simmons]

There's no free agents, but there's also no cap space and he's.

[Zach Lowe]

And he's such a legend there and deservedly so. Like the, the just people just screaming Nas Reed in the streets and holding the Nas Reed towels. I hope he stays there forever. But look, I, I think Minnesota will work their way into this series. But this game Was not a. Not the start you were hoping for. Could you come out of this like, oh geez, man, with this is going to be tough to score enough against these guys.

[Bill Simmons]

It exacerbated all the things I was worried about, which is ball handling, Conley's age, the fact that they don't really have a backup point guard, that it seems like Edwards is going to have to have the ball a lot. And I think OKC was ready for that. Especially in the second half. You could say like, oh, you're going to have Edwards bring it up. We're going to actually make it really difficult for him and OKC with the. Especially at home with the ability to snap the switch for four minutes. I'm worried for Minnesota. Cause I'm trying to think what's the roadmap for them to be awesome in this series? When you think how bad OKC played for the first half of this game, basically for them, and then they still win the game easily. I guess it starts with Edwards, who was only 18 points. Typical weird feeling it out. He does this sometimes. There was a Laker game like this too. There was the first game of the warriors series where it's like this. It's almost like a feel out game. But it lasts the whole game and then the game's over and they lost. But I would assume he's going to come out way more aggressive.

[Zach Lowe]

I. You know, you do have to remind yourself all the time, don't overreact to game one. Even if it even and maybe especially if it confirms to your expectations about how the series would go. Because then your tendency is to really overreact to it. Roadmap number one is hit four more threes if you're going to take 50 and that does a lot of the work for, for you.

[Bill Simmons]

But I will get to 19. 20.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah. I'll continue to say this. Like if they lose the turnover, if they lose the live ball turnover battle like that, because Oklahoma City had 12 turnovers, only five of those were steals. So that's. What did I say, 13 steals to five steals. If they lose that battle that badly and they don't win the free throw battle by a significant margin, they're just not going to win games. There's just no math that's going to help them win games. With step one is the threes. The ant thing like grade the ant. What, what grade would you give ant this game. He does have games like this where like he has moments.

[Bill Simmons]

And first of all for him D. Wow. For him, not D across the board for him.

[Zach Lowe]

What do you want more of? What did you. What did you see that concerned you, Swagger?

[Bill Simmons]

I want. I want. Yo, we're playing the best team in the league and I'm in their house and I'm stealing this game from them. I didn't feel that at all in this game. Now, he did get hurt in the first half, and I don't know if that tweaked whatever was going on and on. Randall also had a huge first half, so maybe you back off, but he's got to win the swagger battle with this. You beat OKC by. It sounds stupid and it's the opposite of second Spectrum. And I liked your second Spectrum voice that you broke out, by the way. Your nerdy second Spectrum voice.

[Zach Lowe]

I always tell people I said it about the Celtics after game one and game two against the Knicks. Hang the, hang the shot quality championship banner. Congratulations. You had better shock quality.

[Ben Thompson]

You're.

[Zach Lowe]

You're down 20 in the series. You get nothing for that.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I think for him, he's got to be talking shit. He's got to feel like he's the alpha on the court. I didn't feel that at all in this game. Randall, ironically, was the one that was starting to carry himself that way. And it was interesting to watch OKC swing there. Everything they were doing defensively to try to just kind of take him out. I mean, the Caruso piece of this, I was thinking how, as you know, I always want more awards because I think we need stuff to commemorate the season well after the fact and be like, oh, that was the season when this happened and this happened and this happened. If we had a role player of the playoffs award, it feel like Caruso would be like -700 on FanDuel. To take it at this point to watch somebody guard Randle, Edwards and Jokic, well, in a 48 hour span. Who else is doing that?

[Zach Lowe]

Who else is in the. Does it have to be a bench guy? Like, is Josh Hart in the conversation? Is Andrew Nemhardt in the conversation? Those guys are other leaders.

[Bill Simmons]

You have to think of it like it's a movie poster and it can't be somebody who would be one of the two or three faces in the movie poster or in the, like the TNT when they're doing the commercial for the game. It would be weird if they were in the game. Like, Julius Randle is not eligible.

[Zach Lowe]

He's Aaron Gordon too. Too good for. For. For that.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he is. Because if you're doing the Nuggets Movie poster. It's the three guys, right? So it'd be Christian Brown. In that case would be your role.

[Zach Lowe]

Nuggets movie poster is just Jokic sitting on the bench looking sad as. As the lead is like frittered away. They always cut to him. It was the first. It was the Nico Harrison in the crowd cut when anything bad would happen. And then it became the Jokic on.

[Bill Simmons]

The bench when he's looking up and it's like, oh, there's 11 minutes and 10 seconds left in the fourth quarter. I probably can't come back yet. They wanted. They. They told me they wanted me to get to nine minutes. How did that. Oh, God. Brush just turned the ball over again. Oh, now it's 10:50.

[Zach Lowe]

Let's talk. Can we talk a little more about amp?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

So, like, the simplest explanation for why Oklahoma City is. Is very difficult to play against is if you're Ant and you have the ball at the top of the top of the arc. Like, what. What direction are you going against this defense? There's no easy mark to go at. I thought at the beginning of the game he was starting to get traction in the Gobert pick and roll. Just like, like, not softest part of the defense, but just I can always get a big guy, like, get Hardenstein up, up the floor and like, maybe I can get around him or there's a pocket pass to Gobert or something. And then Gobert only ends up playing 20 minutes. They play Chet at center quite a bit when Isaiah Joe was on the floor and really wanted to go at him and they couldn't get that switch. Like, the Thunder were really good at hedging, recovering, and like, you take that out of it and it's like, I don't know where to go. And you could try Shay, but Ant has not really developed like this sort of back to the basket, bully ball game that I think he'd like. I mean, he and I talked about it three, four years ago in a phone interview. He would like to do that. And it just hasn't. It's just a. There's just not a lot of places to pick at. Whereas I thought the Thunder gradually were like, Shay was like, okay, particularly when Gobert's off the floor. I can get some place against Randall. I can attack Nas Reed's feet in the pick and roll. Like, I got plate. It's not great. Like, this is a really good defensive team too, but I got things I can do. And Ant is still figuring out kind of where he wants to poke at and I think he's going to have a game where he finds the right. The right places and stuff starts to open up for him. Maybe part of it is like. Like he likes to go one on one. He's an incredible one on one player, and he can beat almost anybody one on one. And he. He had a couple of those in this game. But again, it's like, if it's Kayson Wallace or somebody like that, like, that's no picnic. And they're going to pick you a lot.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, Kayson Wallace was in there for a little bit, and you OKC always has two guys you just completely forgot were on the team, and then they're just kicking ass for three straight minutes. I think the thing that OKC seems like they love is if somebody's going straight up one on one, almost like the old school one forward, and it's like, I'm going to go on one on one, beat a guy and just try to get to the basket. They're like, great, Please try that. We're ready. In so many different ways, it seems like you got to attack them on the sides with angles, because I feel like the Celtics fell into the same kind of issues with Tatum. When it would go bad, when it was always, like him 40ft from the basket, straight ahead, versus when they would put him on the left or the right and he could kind of veer toward the paint and decide, like, what to do off the dribble. I always felt like he was better. Maybe that's what they're going to have to do with Edwards. And I thought they found something the first half with the Gobert pick and rolls, and then they just stopped.

[Zach Lowe]

There was a play in the second half where I don't remember exactly. It was an ant pick and roll, maybe with Gobert, and he got Kayson Wallace on his hip and got him trapped kind of behind him and then snaked it. So he changed directions. And it looked like he was going to have a driving lane to the right. And that if Gobert was the screener, let's just say Gobert was going to seal off everyone on the other side of the floor. And Caruso just ran in from the right corner off Alexander Walker. And Ant was like, oh, my God. Okay, I'll kick the ball to Alexander Walker. And in real time, I thought they had switched. And then I rewatched it, and it was like, no, Caruso just ran all the way back to Alexander Walker. Contested the three. So Alexander Walker had to pump, put the ball on the floor for one Dribble, rise up for a three, and then here comes Case and Wallace coming at me. And it was like a decent three, but it's an example of Ant just couldn't get a, like an easy feel for. There's a clear path to the rim and I'm taking it. And then they're just flying at you and making you take like some decent threes, some bad threes. So it's. There's a great. I mean, look, it's a.

[Bill Simmons]

Not.

[Zach Lowe]

Breaking news. They're an awesome defensive team.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Well, the problem, if you're the other team that's playing whoever the favorite, you kind of have to win game one, I feel like to pull off an upset. The Thunder were 68 and 14 this season. They're eight and three in the playoffs now. You have to beat them four out of six times basically to send them packing. And that includes winning at least one game on the road. Right. And I guess game seven on the road. Just a tall task. I thought this was the game they had to steal, especially OKC definitely seemed tired that first half. Randall's playing great. This is the game you probably take. So I don't. I don't really know in terms of tweaks. I feel like it's going to be easier for OKC to tweak this and use the, you know, the last quarter and a half to their advantage. Hey, we worked with FanDuel long hours trying to figure out a great idea for the NBA playoffs. And we stumbled into a really good one that we've been doing for the last couple weeks. We've won two weeks. It's called tail or fade. I make a prop that I like and you can either back me or you can go against me. And it's hit the last two weeks and it's going to hit again this week because we are going. Carl Anthony Towns under 24 and a half points. It's the first under prop that I've done. And by the way, if you think I'm wrong, fade me. Go the other way. I think he's going to score 25 points or more. There's a little minus action on this, but when you throw in the 50% profit boost, you win either way if the bet hits. So please go check out FanDuel Sportsbook and you can find the bet. Make sure you do the little Taylor fade prop thingy with it. Get the profit boost. You can apply it to my pick or the other side of the pick and you're off and running. If we win the bet together. Go trash talk your friends because they didn't believe in us. I believe in us. We're going to do this. Feener.com BS that's where you can find that's where you can download America's number one sports book and make every moment more you must be 21 + in President select states or 18 + President in DC. Opt in required bonus issued as non withdrawable profit boost tokens. Restrictions apply including any token expiration and max wager amount. See terms@sportsbook fanduel.com Gam Prom Call 100 Gamble or visit rg dash. Help. Com this episode is brought to you by Degree Original Cool Rush Deodorant. Remember last year people got really mad when Degree changed their Cool Rush formula. One dude even started a petition. What was up with that guy? Well, guess what? ° listened. They admitted they messed up. They're bringing back the original Cool Rush scent and thank God. You've got to love when a brand can own its mistakes and it's in Walmart, Target and other stores right now for under $4. Grab some find out why it's been the number one men's antiperspirant for the last decade. By the way, you should put that on especially. We're about to hit the summer. It's getting sweaty in the summers. The original Degree Cool Rush is back and it smells like victory for all of us. Are you ready to wrap your head around OKC actually winning the title? I know we, I know they're the favorite all year. I know we've talked about it, prepared for it. They were an incredible regular season, but they still seem so young to me when I'm watching it. It, it just seems like they're going to win this and it still feels like they have their future ahead of them, which is a really unusual place for a champion to be. You know what I mean?

[Zach Lowe]

I mean, you, you, you, you, you cautioned me to not. You know, we already talk about Nas Reed's free agency and then you're like, oh, we're talking about OKC has already won the title.

[Bill Simmons]

He's seven wins away now. And it doesn' Denver might have been the best chance to beat them, even as limited as that team was when.

[Zach Lowe]

They, when they beat Denver. And it's always hard to go through a proven champion with the best player. When they beat Denver, they were very clearly like the betting the solid favorite to win the championship tonight only reinforced that. But there are still seven wins to go and three tough teams and a lot of randomness, health stuff. Who knows what could pop up? But yeah, I mean, I picked them to make the finals this year. I thought I picked Boston over Oklahoma City as my. So I'm not surprised. And it doesn't feel premature to me, in part because, you know, they. They had people kind of like. Like lat sometimes talk as if last season's playoff run was so crushingly disappointing and so short. That was a real, like, new. The New Orleans series in the first round was a walkover, but Dallas was a team that ended up making the finals with two generationally elite ball handlers and a lot of sides and a lot of problems and like, they had to problem solve at a high level. They failed. They lost the series. But it was a very close series. Easily could have gone seven, easily could have gone the other way. That was real playoff experience. And then they completely like the Hartenstein Caruso double dip, completely changes their team in a lot of different ways. And they're ready for this.

[Bill Simmons]

It sure feels like it. The Denver thing really put some chest hair on them. And I was talking to some people yesterday about the Denver game. I don't. Obviously they didn't break Jokic. He's incredible. But it was interesting to watch him run out of solutions. And I potted right afterwards with Rosillo, but I was still thinking about the game after and when they just weren't able to get him the ball.

[Zach Lowe]

It's unbelievable.

[Bill Simmons]

For long swaths of the game, you know, and. And finally Jokic, like, he really didn't shoot that much. I think he had 17 points at halftime. He might have finished with 20. I felt like they broke the nuggets a little bit in that game. That's another team. It's not just that you're, you know, you have a chance to win the title. You're also leaving wreckage of teams behind. I don't know what happens to that Denver team going forward or what the moves are or how you fix kind of this nucleus that feels like it's just not going to be good enough anymore. But that's a piece of it. And it goes back to what something I talked about on Sunday and you've talked about in your pod, too, is it feels there feels like there's some sort of shift this season that we're moving into the second half of the decade, literally, and all the teams that mattered the first half of the decade, for the most part, are going by the wayside. And now we have this new kind of new crop of teams that are just going to be in our lives the question for me is whether Minnesota can stay there with the tax stuff. Regardless of what happens in this series. Are they going to be able to pay Nas Reid? Do they have the pockets to do that? How are they going to handle Randall if he opts out? Which I think he. There's a chance he might.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean, if.

[Bill Simmons]

Why wouldn't it.

[Zach Lowe]

That's all. Well, it's all going to be. I mean, he'll know if he, if he opts out, he'll know he's opting out for something better than opting in. I don't want, I still want to talk about Minnesota counters and what else they can do. I don't want to be. I don't want to go this far. This is too, just too far for me.

[Bill Simmons]

This is, this is why we're talking it out.

[Zach Lowe]

Offensive rebounding. There was a moment where it felt like, oh, they're going to be able to kind of bully this team on the glass. And then it faded away. I think we got to see more of that. I was surprised. I think they only played one possession of zone in the whole game and it felt like it was more to protect Jaden McDaniels or maybe Jaden McDaniels got taken out right before. I thought that was going to be something they went to a little bit more, particularly after watching Denver kind of trouble them a little bit with the zone. I wonder if they're just like, we don't want to play that card right away in game one. We want to see what our man to man defense can do. You know, there's a couple, a couple of things. They go, bear, gobert, two points, three rebounds. It's just, it's just gotta be like 12 points, 14 rebounds. Eight of those rebounds are offensive rebounds. Like if he's going to play and they're going to win, it's got to be something like that.

[Bill Simmons]

They did something with him. He did the drive down the middle where it seems like scoop shot and then he just whips it out to the side. And I forget which OKC player was like, you're passing it to the corner and just stood there and took the ball in the pass.

[Zach Lowe]

Do you think Minnesota's like, the guys on the bench have like had training sessions about, okay, guys, when Rudy starts to do that, you can't start laughing. You can't like hide you. You've got to just like stare.

[Bill Simmons]

And he passes up a two foot layup for a kick out to the corner. All right, so you think more go Bear. Just More three point luck has to change. Ant goes way more alpha. Shay doesn't get the same calls. McDaniels is able to actually stay in the court and be McDaniels. I think that's the recipe. I still don't know if it's enough.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean, I, I thought Thunder and six, so I, I don't think it's all going to be enough.

[Bill Simmons]

But that's what I had too. I thought, I thought Minnesota would get two wins somehow.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, it's.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know where they're coming from now.

[Zach Lowe]

Five just feels for a team that is, what, eight and two in the playoffs coming into this and made the conference finals last year. Five just feels like they've earned a little bit more respect than that. And seven felt too much. Seven felt like that's too many.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm going six so quickly on Randall. I was looking up because I was bored once that game got out of hand. I was looking at Randall's weird career. You know, he's averaging for his career, 19 and 9. And I looked up how many guys have played 700 plus games and average 19 and 9. What do you think the number is? Number of players in the history of the NBA. 19 and nine, 19 points, nine rebounds a game. That's it. 700 games.

[Zach Lowe]

700 games?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. 62, 23.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, my God.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that's it. Jokic Bird, Giannis Wilt, Elgin. Pretty good start. C Webb, Charles Barkley, Randall, Kareem, Karl Malone, Bob Lanier, Tim Duncan, Bob Pettit, Anthony Davis. Nine's a lot.

[Zach Lowe]

Nine is a lot.

[Bill Simmons]

Shaq David Robinson, Hakeem, Walt Bellamy, Bob McAdoo, Patrick Ewing, Elvin Hayes, Spencer Haywood and Moses Malone. That's like an incredible list. Multiple hall of Famers guys. Multiple guys who are in the top 20 all time. And then if you go that Same list where 3.5 assists a game, that then that list goes down to 10.

[Zach Lowe]

Are you making history, Randall? Hall of Fame case right now? Is that what you're doing?

[Bill Simmons]

I gotta say, I did not realize I kind of given up on Rando as like a real asset. But I've been so impressed with him in the playoffs that it's making me reevaluate. Like, did I get something wrong? Did he get better? Was he this good the whole time? I have Knicks fans in my life. Some of them are like, couldn't stand watching him. And then others are like, the guy was awesome for us. 24 and 10 every night. 4 assists, 5 assists. Guy's a warrior. And he's just. I don't know how it happened, but he's probably the most polarizing guy in the league. Right. For the discourse, how far it's gone in different directions.

[Zach Lowe]

Should we pitch a documentary on the kind of Post Kobe, Pre LeBron, Lakers, all of whom become like characters around, like one of my favorite topics, Randall dlo, Josh Hart's flying around.

[Bill Simmons]

Don't forget Brooke Lopez.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, I'm talking about like the young guys. Brandon Ingram, Jordan Clarkson. There's like a Nick Young, d' Angelo Russell subplot in there. Iggy Azalea is involved. If I said. If I said her name right.

[Bill Simmons]

So you're saying the year Before, Larry.

[Zach Lowe]

Nance Jr. Just like the, the youth movement that LeBron kind of came in was like, yeah, I'm publicly like, yeah, I'm curious. Like, these guys are all interesting. And then was like, can we just trade all of them immediately? Like one by Kuzma. Kuzma is another one. They're all like these characters scattered across the league now. Lakers fans were so excited about that team. Luke Walton was the coach. And there was a moment, there were moments where it was like, maybe this.

[Bill Simmons]

Could be a team.

[Zach Lowe]

Like, maybe this could grow into something like a, like not a great team, but like a 49 win team one year or something fun and homegrown. And now they're just like a bomb went off and they're just scattered everywhere.

[Bill Simmons]

They had the number two team.

[Zach Lowe]

Lonzo's in there.

[Bill Simmons]

I know. I'm about to give you that. Lonzo was on there. Thomas Bryant, he's in the playoffs right now. KCP Caruso, Jordan Clarkson, Channing Frye, Josh Hart, Brandon Ingram, Kyle Kuzma, Brook Lopez, Larry Nance, Gary Payton and Zubots all had minutes on the 2018 Lakers. Now, some of them left during the season with trades, but yeah, the Caruso piece of it, first of all, that he was in the G League nine years ago. That picture of him and Mark Dagnald is unbelievable. Them in the G League together, it's just like an unbelievable photo. But the fact that it just took this long for him to be fully appreciated, like he's being in these playoffs when it probably should have happened in 2020, all the stuff he was doing then, I still love that trade for both teams. I think Giddy for Caruso is one of the most fun trades of the last five, six years. Perfect trade for both teams. All the stuff Caruso is doing on OKC is wasted on a 41 and 41 Bulls team. Like this is where he should be.

[Zach Lowe]

Good trade, if that, like. No, I, I, look, I, I didn't like it for the Bulls as much as you did, but I also thought the Bulls got too much flack for that trade. But Caruso is doing this on the highest level of professional basketball. For the Bulls to end up in three years saying, hey, that trade worked out just as well for us. Giddy is going to have to do some of this stuff on, like, a really high level of basketball and not like, it's cool that you average 28 and 8 in March and April when half the east is tanking. And like, that's cool. I'm not saying it's meaningless, like he shot the three well this year, but it's got to happen with some real stakes at some point.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I agree with that.

[Zach Lowe]

And in the East. Hey, Bill, like, apologies, like, to, to what? You know, the Boston thing, the Milwaukee thing. Like, hey, it could, could be next year. Bulls could be four or five series next year. Who knows?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, that's the case. Ben Thompson's coming up later because I had to bring him on to yell at me about my Giannis for mobile trade. What was your take on that trade, by the way?

[Zach Lowe]

Well, my first take was the same one that Bobby Marks had, which was, I'm pretty sure this is way more complicated than that.

[Bill Simmons]

It was a theoretical.

[Zach Lowe]

And then my second trade was, I think Cleveland would just reflexively recoil from it because Mobley is seven years or eight years younger or whatever it is than Giannis seven or six and a half. And, and then my third thought was, should they, should they just reflexively recoil? Like, what is Mobley's. And I love Mobley. You and you and I both are super high on Mobley. It's probably going to make second team all NBA and kind of deservedly, I think.

[Bill Simmons]

And defensive player of the year. Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

I just, I just. But Giannis is Giannis and Mitchell Garland Giannis makes more sense than Sengun Thompson, Giannis or like. But I just think in the end I'm a little bit more risk averse. Trading young for aging. It's the same reason I never got so excited about Durant coming to Boston. But I think if their instinct, and I believe that it probably would be, is to just like, recoil in horror at the idea of trading Evan Mobley, I think they need to at least sort of tamp that down and really think it through. And what does it look like and what is the cost?

[Bill Simmons]

At least Spooky Cousins was on some show today. Saying that he thought Dallas should trade the Cooper Flag pick for Durant, which I thought was bold because he said there were Dallas's windows. Right now.

[Zach Lowe]

I feel like. I feel like you're trying to bait me into.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm not trying to bait you. I'm just passing along information I will respectfully disagree with.

[Zach Lowe]

I saw the clip. I don't think.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean I don't disagree.

[Zach Lowe]

He's right about the window and what? Nico Harrison is definitely a window, which is why you aim at Giannis and not Kevin Durant. I think if you're gonna, if you're gonna do that and I don't think they should do it either way, I'm keeping flag.

[Ariel Helwani]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Thanks anyway everybody. Thank you. Thank you for all your offers. I'll be keeping. I'll be keeping flag, I guess. Yeah. Even Mobley, I. I just flags still 18 and he's going to come in. He's by the way. Yeah. You don't watch college basketball. He's going to be your favorite player.

[Zach Lowe]

I've watched my. I've done my YouTube and I've watched a couple games in the tournament. I enjoyed, I enjoyed.

[Bill Simmons]

Checks a lot of boxes on the Zach scale, I'll tell you that.

[Zach Lowe]

I enjoyed Duke's final four collapse against. Who did they collapse against?

[Bill Simmons]

Auburn? Houston, One of those.

[Zach Lowe]

Houston, Houston. Great, great time. Great time for any red blooded American.

[Bill Simmons]

Who did you have in Knicks? Pacers, out of curiosity?

[Zach Lowe]

Nixon 7.

[Bill Simmons]

Nixon 7.

[Zach Lowe]

You have Pacers in 4, I assume?

[Bill Simmons]

No, I have either Pacers in 6 or Nixon 7. I think it's one of those two outcomes.

[Zach Lowe]

I think it goes at least any other. Well, any other pick than that or I guess Pacers in seven. If you think they can win on the road. Any pick other like feels too short. That feels like it should be just an awesome. I'm going to game one tomorrow at the Garden. I can't wait.

[Bill Simmons]

You're going.

[Zach Lowe]

I just want to soak it in. I just want to. I just want to feel it and hear it.

[Bill Simmons]

And how early are you going to get there?

[Zach Lowe]

I mean I'll get there if it's an 8 o' clock tip. I think they'll let us in at 5:30 so I'll get there at 5:20.

[Bill Simmons]

Don't stand next to Windhorst. He's just try to be like. Or defend Windhorse. If anyone comes at him like use some karate. That still made me mad.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, like look, the Knicks. The Knicks fandom is awesome. And I'm like go off. It's been 25 years. You want to flood the streets. It's my favorite city in the world. I lived there for 18 years. You want to go crazy, but like someone tweeted today, like, I don't know where the line is on this kind of stuff. The line is like throwing stuff at people and shoving them and punching them. It's pretty easy. You can shout anything you want. Like, yeah, like the stuff they did to the Pacers fan that Halliburton is flying out to Indiana. It's like that. That's a pretty. That's a pretty clear line. Like, taunt, talk your shit. But like, you know, don't hit people or throw stuff at them.

[Bill Simmons]

We know where the lines are. Well, we'll see. There's. We have some Knicks fans coming up after you. There's a Jalen Brunson moment lurking right now that, you know, could take on Joe Namath winning the third super bowl ever proportions. If he could actually pull it off. He's eight wins away. Did you, did you ever see any version of this with the Knicks where they could actually like win the title? They're pretty massive underdogs in that Celtics series. Do you see? It was like the fifth biggest upset of the 21st century in basketball, that series.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean, I've always been higher on this Knicks team. And even last season's Knicks team, I said was the biggest threat to the Celtics in the East. Even if Philly were healthy, even if Milwaukee had been healthy, I would have thought that. I just thought Boston was a terrible matchup for them. And I was shocked at how, I think, you know, you put Tibbs on the hot seat before the playoffs and I understood why you did it. I think he deserves a ton of credit for the job he's done this year on both ends of the floor. And that series against, against Boston and the way that they stretch their, their scheme and their style into places that were not really familiar for them and part of their A game. I think it was an awesome performance, top the bottom. But I was shocked how, how easily they solved their Boston problem.

[Bill Simmons]

There's been some pretty crazy Celtics losses during this Tatum Brown era. You know, like game seven, Cleveland 2018, when they missed. I think every three they took or it felt like it.

[Zach Lowe]

That was all gravy though, wasn't it?

[Bill Simmons]

I know, but it's just. It was one. I think, I think it's still one of the four worst three point shooting performances in the history of the playoffs.

[Zach Lowe]

That was back to back days with the, the rockets missing 23.

[Bill Simmons]

That was another one of the worst ones ever. The 2022, that game four when Steph just levitated above the game. The game seven 23 against Miami when Tatum gets hurt a minute into the game.

[Zach Lowe]

Explainable though, right? Explainable, yeah. But I'm just saying the earlier losses in that series, the earlier losses in that series were worse. They were comparable to games one and two against New York this year.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. And then game one and two and I don't even know those games are just going to be lumped together in Celtics history. It's not like it'll be like oh, game two. It's like just those two together will be discussed. Like just how do you lose two games in a row at home to start a series down 20. But I did feel, and I said this to you in the next segment, I really did feel like the Knicks played the best I've seen them play all year in the second half of game four and then all game six. Like that. That was like the full potential of whatever this team is. Plus they finally have a bench, even though it's two people.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, Bridges has, has become the player that they traded for in terms of just what he's doing. McBride started making shots and Robinson being this healthy mobile monster, like completely changes their team for 15 to 20 minutes a game. It's those that those three variables alone are a big, big deal. The other stuff is pretty.

[Bill Simmons]

He was eye openingly available for months during the season. Robinson, I'm kind of surprised nobody tried to scoop him up. But I think he, from an injury standpoint, I think, I think he just had this thing to him. It's like what am I. It's almost like where Rob Williams was after a while with the injuries, where you're like, I just. Is he going to play? It's going to. How many, how many games in a row am I getting now?

[Zach Lowe]

And it's only, it's only gotten worse for Time Lord and the Blazers, which is how those things typically go. But yeah, long way to go before.

[Bill Simmons]

We go last question because I'm already in trade mode and draft mode as. Cause now we only have one game a day. There's more stuff to think about. Is there a team you feel like could be a holy shit trade team that we're not talking about enough yet.

[Zach Lowe]

It's funny because is there a team.

[Bill Simmons]

You'Re on watch with out of the 30?

[Zach Lowe]

One of my plans for my Thursday episode is I'm having another guest on. We're each going to pick Our three. Have we discussed this team enough off season teams? So this is like right up my.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, so we'll tee that up for Thursday.

[Zach Lowe]

No, no, but I want to pick a team now. I. I mean, I feel I don't want to pick an obvious one like Milwaukee or even Memphis. We've talked about.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm saying, a little bit of a zag.

[Zach Lowe]

I've got my eyes on Atlanta and Sacramento. They just feel like teams that are just sizzling with. We both kind of like parts of where we're headed and especially Atlanta. But also we're just like. We just fired our. Like the Hawks just fired their GM, Landry Fields and Sacramento had this turn the DeRozan thing. I just. Both of them feel just like ripe for. Wait, why'd they do that? Okay, maybe. I don't know. Those are just two. You got one on the brain. Give me. I know you got one on the brain, so let me. Let me hear yours.

[Bill Simmons]

You're gonna laugh. It was Atlanta.

[Zach Lowe]

Really?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I had somebody ask me because he's heard some of the Giannis content we've done on different pods.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, boy.

[Bill Simmons]

And he was like, why isn't Atlanta in the honest combo? And I was like, what do you mean? And he's like, well, Jalen Johnson's awesome. He's on their team. He just got hurt. Everyone forgets that he didn't play the second half of the year. But as a centerpiece of a trade, that's a really good centerpiece. You know, they have. They're. They don't have their next couple picks, but they have picks later. And it would be pretty easy for them to put something together and basically turn it into Trey and Giannis and keep Giannis in the East.

[Zach Lowe]

And I.

[Bill Simmons]

Look, I wasn't saying it was going to happen, but he was. The question was, why wouldn't Atlanta take a swing? They don't have their picks. Anyway.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm looking.

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't hate it.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean, I think if you're the Bucks, it's got to be. Well, what. What else is there for us other than Jalen Johnson, who I love and I believe is from. He's from Wisconsin.

[Bill Simmons]

Front of it. Yeah, but what's way more in the trade than Jalen Johnson?

[Zach Lowe]

So what's the way more. Because they owe some picks. They have the Lakers pick and they have an extra pick from. It's like the second best of New Orleans and Milwaukee and their own pick.

[Bill Simmons]

They're missing their next couple, right?

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, they have the next three drafts this One and the next two are.

[Bill Simmons]

Controlled by the spurs, but the next one's a swap with the spurs, but they own 28, 29, 30, 31 and then they have an extra bucks New Orleans pick and they also have Risa Shay. If you. I was going to say wanted to get excited there.

[Zach Lowe]

That feels like the rubber meets the road piece in any in that discussion. You've been getting like a little bit off the ground is recessey and so.

[Bill Simmons]

If it's Jalen Johnson, reese' Shea, other.

[Zach Lowe]

Remaining picks, I think Milwaukee has to sit down and think about it and that that's an offer that teams can beat, but it's an offer that's like you got to beat. It's not. It's not a nothing offer for sure. I love Jalen Johnson, but I thought.

[Bill Simmons]

The same thing with Atlanta where it's. They had some upheaval. They're kind of in no man's land. Why not if he's available? They've done weird shit before too.

[Zach Lowe]

I'll tell you what mitigates against that though is like how fucking bad the east is. Like it's really easy to talk yourself into a world where Atlanta just stands pat re signs Levert does nothing all that interesting and is like why can't we go 52 and 30 next year and be the third seed in the east and like still have some stuff to do?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, that's the case for Milwaukee to not do it. To do maybe we keep Giannis. Maybe we're just a 50 win team by default in the east with Giannis.

[Zach Lowe]

The difference is Giannis has tasted the championship and understands that the window is shrinking. The time window is shrinking and Trey has and the Hawks have tasted the conference finals and everyone kind of, you know, wrote that one off and has then has just been swimming in the play and just playing, playing. They should name the playing after the Hawks at this point. Hawks in the heat. It's like a guaranteed playing game every year.

[Bill Simmons]

I wish Miami had one more guy because there's a bam in all your picks for Giannis type of framework that I think would work, but it just puts Giannis in the same situation he's in now.

[Zach Lowe]

Exactly. At least the Hawks won. At least you can say, well he's going to another whatever you want to call Trey, perennial, all star, semi perennial, all star, couple time all star. And like he fits well with Giannis. Heroes like a one time all star. And everyone is like, really?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know. You know, I don't think. I mean San Antonio has a ton of picks, but I don't think I said this to Ben later. I'm sorry. I'm stepping on a segment that's coming later, but I just don't. If I'm Giannis, I'm not getting traded unless I'm guaranteed I'm going to be one of the best four teams, which is why going back to Cleveland, that's why the mobile thing made sense to me. So it's like if he gets traded there, mobile is the guy coming back. I now know I'm the favorite in the east, and I'm okay approving that trade at that point, but I guess we'll see. All right, Thursday you're talking coming off the Knicks game that you're going to go to and then doing some.

[Zach Lowe]

Some of this, some of this stuff, some of this. Who's going to do some crazy stuff? Let's go.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe some End of the year Greenwich High School varsity sports wrap up.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, God.

[Bill Simmons]

Swim team wrap. Nothing.

[Zach Lowe]

Nothing. Nothing.

[Bill Simmons]

No. How'd GHS do this year?

[Zach Lowe]

Swimming? We kicked butt. The coach is pretty awesome. Other sports? I don't know. I don't follow.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm glad the swim team's still good. All right, Zach Lowe, good to see you as always, always fun. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. Every basketball team that's still alive in the playoffs has one thing in common. Their key trades and signings throughout the season paid off, giving each team the talent needed to make a run at the championship. With a small business, your success directly depends on the new talent you add to your team. And a great place to find that talent is LinkedIn. They know hiring is a big deal for small businesses, not only because small businesses are wearing so many hats, but also because every hire is crucial for a growing company. That's why LinkedIn pairs you with the best candidates, using data you won't find anywhere else. From unique skills and interests to the connections you have in common. LinkedIn also lets you go beyond candidates who are actively applying in a given week. 171 million LinkedIn members aren't actively seeking jobs, but they are open to new opportunities. That's a big pool to miss out on. So find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com Simmons that's LinkedIn.com Simmons to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. Summer's almost here, and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. What do we mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parmesan delivered. A cabana. That's a no. A banana. That's a yes. A nice tan. Sorry, no. But a box fan. Happily, yes. A day of sunshine? Nope. A box of fine wines. Yeah. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost. Almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol and select markets. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. All right, so listen, I've talked a lot about the Knicks on this podcast, really, since I've had in 2007, and I brought in a bunch of people on. Two of them are here today. But I just wanted to say, you know, Sean, Fantasy. Ariel Helwani, a lot of times when I brought you in, it's usually it's out of a moment of sadness or like there's faint hope, and it's not really going to work out the right way, but it's. It's usually somebody. One of you being sad. And this is a very happy time for the Knicks. Eastern Conference finals starts tomorrow. You've beaten the defending champion Boston Celtics, and I thought it was only fair to invite you both on. Uh, Sean's got, like, a golftan sunburn thing going. You just, like, lost your mind. Mission Impossible is coming out. Ariel looks the happiest I've ever seen him. This is so. I don't know. Sean, you go first.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, ding dong, the witch is dead. RIP Boston. Bill, I haven't said it to you one time in days, giving you the floor. I haven't said a damn thing. And I'm happy to. Well, one, thank you for having me. Thank you for having Ariel. Thank you for giving us this platform. You've given me a lot of platforms over the years, and I'm grateful to you, but I honestly. We just kicked Boston's ass, man. That was amazing. That was genuinely beautiful. Like, I never in my wildest dreams thought they were going to win that series. Ariel, I think you're a much more positive fan than I am. I'm a cynic to the core. I've been burned by this team dozens and dozens of times, and this series was magical. And this week is extraordinary. And I don't want to hear a damn word about guys over celebrating a second round victory because we haven't been there in a quarter century. And that was an incredibly meaningful moment for the franchise, for the fan base, and for a team that had lacked a signature moment all season. And this series was clearly to this point, their signature moment. So I'm just elated. I'm thrilled and I'm super excited about this year's the Pacers.

[Ariel Helwani]

I'll just add amen to all of that and kudos to you, Bill, because I think a lot of people would have said you wouldn't have two Knicks fans on. And certainly some of my friends were like, is Bill gonna have you on? I'm like, look, I. You reached out to me, I didn't reach out to you. I don't like being that fan. I don't like rubbing it in. But golly, I'm happy to be here. I am delighted to be here. That was one of the. So I went to game six. I was teetering, obviously the tickets, and I bought my tickets. No comps here. I'm not that kind of celebrity, certainly not on your level. So I can't get in there with Chalamet and Bad Bunny. But I remember exactly where I was in 1999 when we clinched at home to go to the NBA Finals when we beat the Indiana Pacers. I know exactly where I was in 2000 when Ewing dunked over morning the last trip to the Eastern Conference finals. And I said to myself, that kid, that 17 year old would have done anything. He would have walked from his house in Montreal to Madison Square Garden to be here. I have to figure out a way to be there. And I'm so happy I got to go with my two kids because it was the greatest sporting event that I've ever been to in my life and I've been lucky to be to some. It was a three hour party, Bill. It was a three hour freaking party. It was unlike anything because there was no tension, there was no stress. We hadn't had one of those games yet in the playoffs. Lord knows we didn't have a lot of those wins throughout the season. And from the jump, you know, at one point I think it was like 75 Boston and that was it. You know, Jalen hit a couple of shots and that was it. It was a party. And, and, and just I was able to look at everything and I told my kids, this hasn't happened in 25 years. They're 13 and 11, Oliver and Walter. I said, look at all this. Take this all in. This doesn't happen. Don't take this for granted. And then we had to walk through the crowd, which, you know, I know everyone has their take on the crowd, but I thought everyone was well behaved. It was awesome. We'll never forget it. And I honestly wish that the Eastern Conference finals were starting on Saturday because I still need like five more days to revel in all the highlights, all the videos about that win over the Celtics. Because I don't want this feeling to go away.

[Bill Simmons]

Sean, you want the feeling to go away. Are you ready to play some basketball?

[Sean Fennessey]

I want to play. We're not done. I think there's. This is a team that has a really good chance to move on. And frankly, we have revenge come due after last. Last series with the Pacers last year. So I wanted Halliburton the whole time. I'm glad it worked out. I'm glad. The Cavs once again were a paper tiger. That's three years in a row they've been a paper tiger. And I think this team. I don't know if they're a team of destiny. I have heard that said a few times. I think the guys on group chat called them a team of destiny the other day. But there is something different. I never would have guessed that. A team that is highlighted by Karl Anthony Towns, a player I never understood or respected all the way up until last October. But there is some sort of juju going on with them right now that is just thrilling. And I'm. The only time I'll probably disagree with Ariel this entire time, this entire call, is that I want the game to start tonight. I wish they were playing right now.

[Ben Thompson]

I'm ready.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I know, Sean, you've come on sometimes and you've just laid some bombs and laid some wood on some rivals. Cause you turned into a sports fan, Sean. I hate Karl Anthony Townes after that series. And it's going to be tough for me to refer him for a while. No rational reason for it. It's just he started playing well in game six and started puffing his chest out a little bit and the wheels had come off. Not just the Celtics series, but the season and probably the era, and he became the target. But Ariel, where do you. Where did you land on Towns? Are you still trying to figure him out? What UFC fighter is he?

[Ariel Helwani]

No, he's the man. He's the freaking man. I hope they build a statue for him outside.

[Bill Simmons]

Statue.

[Ariel Helwani]

Oh, my God. Carl Towns is the man. I mean, look, everyone has their take on him. Second trip to the conference finals and back to back seasons. He beat Jokic last year. Western Conference files. Like you need to start respecting. He was. He was a big part of that, in my opinion.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't remember that as the Town series.

[Ariel Helwani]

Oh, he was fantastic in that series. Come on.

[Bill Simmons]

But he must drive you crazy, because he would drive me crazy if he was the center of my team. I would go, I know what you're.

[Ariel Helwani]

Trying to do here. There is nothing you can say to get me to say anything negative about the New York Knicks right now. I freaking love all of them. I wish Jericho Sims and Matt Ryan and Jacob Toppin was back on the bench because I missed those guys as well. That's how irrational all of this is. I cannot tell you what it's like walking around. So right now we're near NYU and seeing everyone with their Knicks gear. I was so tired of the LOL Knicks. I was so tired of all the jokes, of all the media outlets always cracking jokes. I mean, they're still doing it. TNT is still doing it. It's ridiculous how they're treating this team. But I just love how the city, how everyone has rallied around them. Jalen is the. I'm so lucky to grow up in an era where Jalen Brunson and Josh Allen are my two guys. I mean, they are cut from the same cloth. They're exactly the same. And that my kids can root for these guys. The way he handled Friday, he didn't even celebrate. Look at the look on his face. He looked upset. And I went back and looked at the post game press conference after game seven, when Tyrese Halburn thought he was also cute. Walking in there with the T shirt and the choking. I can't wait for them to get revenge for that one because we have not forgotten. And I went back and looked at his media availability with the broken hand. He had the broken hand in that game. And he. And someone said to him, is this season a success? And it was his version of job not finished. And he's like, did we make it far? Did we win? No, this wasn't a success. We're not here for any sort of, like, you know, moral victory. I love his mentality. I love everything about him. And if you're still subscribing to the notion that he's too small or not the best guy on the court or all this nonsense, you know, you're missing the point and you're missing the fun. This has been an unbelievable run. This is a likable team. This is a fun team. Carl Towns completely dominated every big man that Boston threw his way from poor.

[Bill Simmons]

Zingus to everyone in between dying of an illness.

[Ariel Helwani]

Cornet was a. I mean, we had Cornet before you guys had Cornett. That was a great. And what about Mitchell Robinson in that one sequence that Was the boom boom.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, I will say Sean never gave up on Mitch Robb.

[Ariel Helwani]

Good.

[Bill Simmons]

You were, you were waiting for those 15 minutes in the playoffs. That was the weirdest thing about the series was by the end of the series, all of a sudden the Knicks had the seven man rotation. That makes sense as like a four round playoff team, which I was not expecting.

[Sean Fennessey]

If they get good Deuce and they get good Mitch, they're incredibly formidable team that legitimately feels like a championship team to me. If it's only six guys, I get really tight. And if one of those guys who's missing from that 7 is cat like he was in game 5, then I'm really nervous that that was the best and the worst of this team that you saw in five, in six, when all cylinders were firing in six was the opposite of five. So it's not, this is not, you know, this is not the 93 bulls. Like that's not really what we're looking at here with these teams. It's just there fears feels like an opportunistic hole for them to slide into. And like Ariel said, they have jb like in, in my lifetime, never been an athlete who in the final minutes of a game, I trusted more in my life.

[Bill Simmons]

Wow.

[Sean Fennessey]

Not even close. I mean there's literally not close. In my 43 years of watching sports, who is even. I mean, who's on the list? I mean, you're a Bills fan, Ariel. I'm a Jets fan. So obviously I don't have anybody to choose from there.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I guess first three quarters, Josh Allen. Wow, I'm sorry, I'm just lashing out. That was just mean. I don't know why I did that.

[Ariel Helwani]

What's so great about this is like for the last 20 years, all the Boston teams have broken my heart. You know, from the Bruins, Red Sox, Blue Jays. Now I'm a Blue Jays fan because my Expos left. Let's not get into that. Knicks, Celtics, obviously, and of course Patriots. And, and, and Bill, Everything's turning in my favor now. Bill, this is incredible. We smoke you guys every year. In fact, we let you guys beat us at the end of the season. So you want to get the first.

[Bill Simmons]

Pick favorite in 13 games this year.

[Ariel Helwani]

The picture when we let you guys beat us was amazing. And then what happened here? You guys, you guys were so cocky going into this second round series. It was amazing.

[Bill Simmons]

It should have been. We were minus 800 favorites. Why wouldn't we have been cocky? You guys barely beat the Pistons. You rope a dope.

[Ariel Helwani]

Barely we were up 3:1 and beat them in six.

[Bill Simmons]

Every fourth quarter was like, was either or.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's when they're at their most comfortable. You know it now.

[Ariel Helwani]

I know that's right. By the way, Bill, you're not subscribing to the theory that, like, we beat the Celtics because Tatum's injured, right? Like, we were winning that game. We were winning game four. Talking probably in six or seven.

[Bill Simmons]

We lost the series in the first two games and the fourth quarter you played in game four, which was incredible basketball. We would have been down 3:1 in the series with the Porzingis, who's like zombie Porzingis. Houser, the sprained ankle, Jaylen Brown. We find out after he had this tor meniscus that they were kind enough never to tell us about for two months. I don't think we could have won three in a row. Looking back, I think it would have been a tall test. You would add one game where you at least played one awesome half, and I just don't. I just don't think they would have won three straight with the team they had now before March. I wouldn't have said that.

[Sean Fennessey]

But game six would have been really tough for you guys, even if Tatum was healthy.

[Bill Simmons]

I think game four was hard. Tatum played one of the best games of his life and we were down nine when he got hurt. Can I work up some Indiana animosity for you guys?

[Ariel Helwani]

Oh, please. Easy. Not that hard.

[Bill Simmons]

I know. Halliburton, you're already there. It sounds like 10 out of 10. Hatred.

[Ariel Helwani]

Annoying. Annoying.

[Sean Fennessey]

Fuck him.

[Ariel Helwani]

Twerp. Yeah, okay. Fuck him.

[Bill Simmons]

Reggie Miller doing the announcing.

[Ariel Helwani]

Annoying.

[Bill Simmons]

That means you have to see the 8, 9 seconds and the threes and the Spike Lee trash talk. We're going to be force fed that. Not looking forward to that. Aaron. Aaron Neesmith as a. As a quote, unquote, Brunson stopper. Just following him around every year and doing agitator stuff like, where do you stand on him?

[Sean Fennessey]

Did you say Brunson Fowler?

[Bill Simmons]

Brunson Fowler.

[Sean Fennessey]

Some people say that's his role in this series, I think.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, Nismet's good.

[Ariel Helwani]

Neesmith's good. Nemhardt's good as well. My fellow Canadian hit that big shot in game three, which we would have won the series had that not happened. They are a very good team and they're a very deep team. Dare I say they're the best team that will play in the playoffs so far. Sorry about, you know, the Celtics. I think you're right.

[Bill Simmons]

But if you remove the Porzingis piece and Jalen on the as currently constructed.

[Ariel Helwani]

As they're playing right now.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm not against that argument.

[Ariel Helwani]

They're athletic. They freaking. They're like. They're like the 1993 Arkansas Razorbacks. They play, you know, full court press the entire game. They don't let up. T.J. mcConnell is a pest. He's annoying. He's a gnat. They've got a deep lineup. Like I said, Siakam is really good, but we've got OG back. Remember how OG played against Siakam in the first two games before he got hurt? You know, Turner's fine, but we've got Kat now. Who can compete with him? Everyone likes to talk. Okay, Maturan's good. He didn't. He didn't play last year. He was hurt. That's a nice addition. But look how different our team is compared to last year. And look how much healthier we are compared to last year.

[Bill Simmons]

You have a healthy seven.

[Ariel Helwani]

A healthy, strong seven. And look, Campaign is there if we need him as well. Our spark plug. All right. Don't forget about him.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know if Campaign. I'm going to be counting on that one more guys to hate. Sean, you have TJ McConnell hate him. I'm sure you'll work a healthy amount of animosity toward him.

[Ariel Helwani]

Also.

[Sean Fennessey]

Also a former Sixer, which means I double despise him. However, if TJ McConnell were a nick, he would be an icon. I just want to put that out.

[Bill Simmons]

There and then, and then Matheran who, you know, gets into it. He's like those Detroit guys. He'll get into it two, three times in a series. He'll get some double texts. He's fun to root against. Rick Carlisle makes some knowing faces. I feel like the animosity is going to be plus like all the, all the old 90s videos. It just feels like this will be a really good old school. A lot of hate on both sides. I also think Indiana is a really hard place to play with the. The arena they have.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's a. They. They have great fans. They've. The one thing did you notice Rick Carlisle in his pre series comments was trying to give a lot of credit to Precious Achua. I think to kind of Jedi mind trick Tom Thibodeau into playing Precious. I was like, I love Precious. Precious plays so hard. But I was like, why are we talking about Precious? Achua really wanted him out there.

[Bill Simmons]

And Obi toppin old Nick coming back for, you know, he'll have one quarter or one Game where he's just awesome and be like, ah, the OB topping game. Um, I think Indiana has a slightly better team, but you have the Brunson piece and that's why I think this is the. The line has shifted. So now it's like Pacers minus or pacers plus one. 24 Knicks are favored. Um, but you're the healthiest you've been all year. And I really, I said this to Rosillo on Sunday. I think second half of game four in game six were the best I've seen those five guys play together. And you really haven't had all five together for long stretches. So that would be the case. Combined with the energy in those Knicks games. It's easy to hit those threes. When you're playing Milwaukee without Dame, when you're playing a Cleveland, when everyone's terrified because they feel like the series is sliding, It's a little different to do the pull up 25 footers in MSG when like Chalamet is stink eyeing you. You know all the celebs who. Sean, was there a celeb that you were like, come on, you haven't been to a game in 25 years. How are you dining on this right now? Anyone you want to call out or no?

[Sean Fennessey]

You know, I'm in a passionate one sided affair with Anne Hathaway and I love her to pieces and she's, you know, she's a big Nick fan, but there's a little bit of confusion as to whether Philly or New York is the city sports city of choice for her. You know, she was at that Eagles super bowl.

[Bill Simmons]

Little bigamisty.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know, her family's from Philly, but she roots for the Knicks. But then there's a clip of her wearing Giants gear on Jimmy Fallon from eight years ago. Little bit of confusion around Anne. You know, I think she's a wonderful actress, but she's not really out here with like Tracy Morgan Rock, you know.

[Bill Simmons]

Stiller, the Sopranos guys.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. Bobby Bach, a lot like those are really the icons. Yeah. Edie Falcoigne, Action Bronson. Yeah, there's.

[Bill Simmons]

I had some Sudeikis questions.

[Ariel Helwani]

Okay. Okay. You stole mine, Bill. I was waiting that one. I don't want to be that fan. I don't want to be that guy. Where were you, you know, when Lance Thomas was running up and down the court or Kylo Quinn? I don't want to be that guy. But Sudeikis. Sudeikis is a Nets guy. He's all Nets.

[Bill Simmons]

Like when the Nets Liberty's Barclays. He's in that whole universe.

[Ariel Helwani]

I saw that was the one guy where I was like, nah, this one. This one felt a little bit weird. But again, I welcome all this whole thing that we can't celebrate. Or where were you when all this nonsense. Screw all that. Be happy, enjoy the.

[Bill Simmons]

Sean's not like that at all. Sean is not a welcome all. He's like, where were you? Where were you in round two when Ray Hibbert was killing Tyson Chandler?

[Sean Fennessey]

I know where I was when that series was happening was I was in a bachelor party in Montreal, off my tree. And watching that game in tears, I was so fucking mad. And all the verticality. I remember that era very well. Where's Roy Hibbert now? Nowhere to be seen. Where's that style of basketball? Dead. What are we playing now? Mitchell Robinson ball. Where we go. Defend all five positions elegantly, with grace and power until we break our ankle.

[Bill Simmons]

Ariel, where are you staying on Tibbs these days? And what was your darkest moment with him the last couple of years?

[Ariel Helwani]

Look, there have been. Okay, so I'll tell you this again. I know you're trying to get me to talk smack. You're trying to create some distinction when the vibes are immaculate right now. All right.

[Bill Simmons]

At all.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is dicey with us, though. This is a little bit of a tricky thing. Tibbs, you know Ariel.

[Ariel Helwani]

No, no, I'm cool with Tibbs. Ever since he was assistant coach with Jeff Nix and Jeff Van Gundy under the great Pat Riley. I'm okay with Tibbs. Tibbs is my guy. There was a game against.

[Bill Simmons]

Does it sound like Sean says, okay, listen, we're different.

[Ariel Helwani]

Different strokes for different folks. There was a game in November, December at Chicago where it was very clear that Carl Towns was. Was dealing with some sort of knee issue. And at that point, it was the Derrick Rose game. Derrick Rose had his little ceremony and so the Knicks were in town. It was the second night of a back to back. It was a Saturday. And he kept Towns in. And I thought Towns had a torn acl. And I'm like, why is he in? We're down by 15 points. Why is he in? That was the one time where I was like, I don't know if I could deal with this anymore. But he's been. He's been phenomenal. He's made the adjustments, made the adjustments from five to six in the last series. That's my guy. I ride with him. I love the fact. I think it might have been on your show. No, it was on New York New York. And I have to give a shout out to John. He's been phenomenal. His interview with Chris Childs that dropped, I think this morning was so great and such a blast from the past to hear that unique voice of his. I've loved his coverage. So shout out to John. He said that, you know, his vision of Tibbs was like, after game six, he went to the back, you know, opened a Diet Coke and just watched 100 hours of Pacers footage. That's what I love about him. He's not out to drink wine. He's not out to go out, you know, for dinner. He's not out to hobnob. He is a true basketball lifer. He has no wife, he has no girlfriend, he has no kids, he has no nothing. I don't even know where he lives. The poor guy. He probably lives in Westchester. And so that's our guy. We're riding with him. I love that he's still hanging onto the hair. The beard is a good addition to the look as well. You're not going to get me to say anything about Tibbs. And what a story it would be for Tom Thibodeau to beat Minnesota. People don't talk about that angle. He was an assistant coach and then the head coach with Minnesota. What a story that would be if he plays Minnesota in the finals. I'm getting ahead of myself here, but love Tibbs. Can't wait for him to hold that trophy down the canyon of heroes in about a month and change.

[Bill Simmons]

Sean, who plays Tibbs in the movie?

[Sean Fennessey]

Ooh. I mean, it would have been Gandolfini. I mean, what an extraordinary Gandolfine part that would have been. You know, he's got the same bearing, burly guy, the deep voice, the thinning hair. You know, a man on a mission.

[Bill Simmons]

Feeney would have played his starters too much. I feel like. Like he played Pauline Christopher a lot.

[Ariel Helwani]

What about Paul Giamatti?

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, Giamatti would be good.

[Bill Simmons]

See, if the size. I guess they'd have to cheat it.

[Ariel Helwani]

I mean, yeah, he could, you know, put a prosthetic.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know, Giamatti would be a good Jeff Van Gundy, actually, now that I think about it.

[Ariel Helwani]

Okay. Yeah. Wow. I'm loving all of this. Look how far we've come. Now we're doing movies about the season. I can't wait. Can we still buy the dvd? Like, do they still do that at the end of the year when your team wins a championship? Can I still get that?

[Bill Simmons]

What a sad question.

[Ariel Helwani]

I don't know. I've never experienced this in my life. Bill's. And what I want.

[Bill Simmons]

Because you haven't. What happens is you just spend a lot of money over the next 72 hours. There's t shirts and hats. You need.

[Ariel Helwani]

I can't wait.

[Bill Simmons]

There's mugs. There's just they. And they keep coming. And the hats keep changing. And then the DVDs come out. So you got to get those. It never ends. But you had. I mean, Sean's. Sean's kid is young. You have kids now that are actually at the right age to experience, to just basically go completely apeshit if they actually kept going.

[Ariel Helwani]

Bill, this has been a gift from God, honestly, because I fell in love. The first team that I really, really loved, 1992 Knicks, 91. I remember when they got swept by the Bulls in the first round, 3, 0. But the 92 Knicks, I remember vividly. My brothers were Bulls fans. So I'm in 92. I'm nine. And I remember sitting there, game seven, convincing myself that we were gonna beat the Bulls on the road, the defending champions. And we got blown out. And I sat there. We were in a hotel room in Boston, and I was crying. It was Memorial Day weekend, actually, Victoria Day weekend. Cause we had off Canadian holiday. And my sons are the same age now, 11 and 13. And to be able to experience this with them as a dad. And I know you and your dad have bonded over the Celtics, like there is. It is great for myself, personally. I'm 42. I've lived and died with this team. I adore them. But to now see it through their eyes. And you know what's the best part? They calm me down. Because as Sean said earlier, like, we're cynics. We've been hurt. They're completely positive and they're like, oh, yeah, we're gonna beat these guys. Like, this is. I have a video that I posted on my Instagram. My son said before the game, we're winning by 30. I'm like, are you insane? We don't win anything by 30. We never win a clincher at home by 30. And they're just sort of like. They have this sort of like, blase attitude about it all. They don't know any better. They're idiot savants, for God's sakes. And it's a beautiful thing to witness that and to experience that with them and also to not have the hurt that we have. They don't have any of this. And so it gives me hope that perhaps this is truly a new era, at least in My life, my buddy.

[Bill Simmons]

Sully's kids, who were like early 2000s kids. And that was kind of how they saw sports because they. They didn't have any of the DNA because, like, when they were little, Brady won the first super bowl and then the red side, and they just kind of assumed that's how it was. And they're surrounded by all these tortured older people who are just waiting for the other shoe. And then you have Sean, who's 40. How old are you now, Sean? 43.

[Sean Fennessey]

Be 43 in July. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. That's been a great sports run, but.

[Ariel Helwani]

This is 43 in July, too. We're like kindred spirits, you and I, Sean.

[Sean Fennessey]

26Th. Ariel, what year? What day are you?

[Ariel Helwani]

Okay, I'm July 8th. But anyway, stop being such a cynic. Enjoy it, man.

[Bill Simmons]

How do you find them thing with Sean? I've known Sean since 2012. This is easily the best sports run he's been on. Basodo, you got rid of Aaron Rodgers, your least favorite New York athlete ever. And then the Knicks run. This is. This is kind of weirdly the peak.

[Ben Thompson]

I.

[Sean Fennessey]

Speaking of John Jastremski, John and I were talking about this last week. I feel like the franchises are in very good hands. That's something that has been. Has defined my fandom is feeling like the franchises, you know, you mentioned, Lowell Knicks, Lowell Mets is an ongoing. And Lowell jets are ongoing bits for all the teams I care about. They're often considered the laughing stocks of their respective leagues. And somehow you remember this bill, when the Knicks missed out on Kyrie and KD and they signed Randall, I was apoplectic. I was so upset, so furious. I felt like it was the culmination of. Of 20 years of failure for the franchise since that 2000 run that they made that Ariel was referring to earlier. And I just could not take it. I was so sick of Dolan. I didn't understand. I thought the Tibbs Higher was a retread. And I was wrong, wrong, wrong. I was wrong about everything. I was wrong about every move that they made in the aftermath. I was. I actually liked the Brunson signing and did not have the, like, I don't know about this contract attitude about it because I had just watched him mow down the Jazz in that previous series in the Western Conference. So I like that. And I like that his dad was basically like, we're bringing this kid here in two years, and they had a plan. But almost everything else that they did, I didn't really get it. I didn't see It I didn't understand it. I'm just a fan. Like I'm not an expert. And to be proven wrong specifically in this way is the greatest feeling in the world. Because like even the Bridges trade two months ago, maybe even two weeks ago, people were saying this is a terrible trade. And then he did things in that Boston series that completely flipped the argument completely. Fuck them picks is a motto in New York now. We don't care about that. We are just delighted to have beaten the Celtics and to be going on to face the Pacers.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. You know something you said arrow was about the Knicks gear being everywhere. That was one of my favorite things about living in Boston when that would happen, when there was some big series or some big game coming up and just the city would just assume the identity of the franchise. Which is really hard to do in New York, but was always why you knew Brooklyn was never going to really make it as the second alternative NBA team. Because the case was as soon as the Knicks get their shit together, this is how it's going to play out. And it feels like it's played out even more than that. Right. Like I got to say, like the outpouring has been just watching it from 3,000 miles away even feels bigger than I expected. And I had high expectations.

[Ariel Helwani]

Oh my God.

[Ben Thompson]

Yeah.

[Ariel Helwani]

And man, that scene on Friday was absurd. Like you walk out and there's a dude in flip flops sitting on top of a billboard. I still have no idea how he got there, but all of it was pretty well behaved. I know the one dude, listen, the one guy in the Halliburton jersey. What did you expect, buddy? What did you expect?

[Bill Simmons]

He wanted that film Wind Horse stuff I didn't like at all.

[Ariel Helwani]

Hated that.

[Bill Simmons]

Hated that. Despite Job to give opinions. Leave him the fuck alone.

[Ariel Helwani]

Couldn't agree more. But there were no cars being burned or anything like that. No fights. At least that, that, that I saw. And you know a lot of those, A lot of those fans aren't as old as, as Sean and I. A lot of those fans, you know, grew up with those pretty crappy teams. Their one kind of high moment was 2013. Hibbert Blocks, Mello at the at the rim Linsanity, things like that. And so I understand. And then you have this mix. It's like this mixture of these like 25, 26 year old kids who are all experiencing this for the first time. And then it's the, you know, the Sean's and I of the world who are like wow, this is just like the 90s. And then I love meeting the old heads, right? Like, the dudes that were there in the 70s that were like, this is the second coming of Clyde. It's so. I mean, I get chills just thinking about it. It's those three chapters, and obviously there was a lot of crap in between. But to be in this city now, like, when I was growing up, I used to say to myself, I need to make it to New York. I need to live in New York. I need to be able to go to work and be like one of those guys in the stands who's wearing the suit, who just goes to the Garden after work. Like, what a life. You get to go to the Garden after work and watch Patrick Ewing and Charles Oakley. This is unbelievable. They sucked for 20 years when I moved here. So now, finally, we're here and experiencing the city. Walking up and down the streets, seeing everyone wear their gear. It's. There's nothing like it. I've been here when the Yankees won. I've been here when the Mets made it to the World Series. Nothing even close to it.

[Bill Simmons]

Sean used to be like that. And then I made a move to la.

[Ariel Helwani]

Come back.

[Bill Simmons]

Sean was like, someday, I'll just. I'll live here. I'll just leave work. I'll go to a Knicks game.

[Sean Fennessey]

I did used to live that life.

[Bill Simmons]

Screening after. It'd be great.

[Sean Fennessey]

I did used to live that life of going to Knicks games. I'm trying to figure out. I don't know if I can go back now since I haven't gone back already. Now I'm like, I'm feeling a little bit superstitious. I don't know.

[Ariel Helwani]

Oh, maybe. Okay, maybe. Maybe that. Do you have fomo? Do you feel like you need to be at one of these games?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. Friday I was in Oregon about as. At a. You know, at a golf resort, about as far from the New York Knicks celebration universe as you could possibly be. And I'm the lone guy sitting in a bar watching the game, near tears, just like gobsmacked. Gobsmacked by what I was watching. Same thing after game two. I'm sitting in my house in Los Angeles alone, hoping my child does not bother me, stunned by what was happening in Game 2. That was the most shocked I've been at a sporting event in 10 years. So there's a part of me that thinks I just need to sit on my freaking couch and watch this series and not go anywhere. But if they advance, though, I don't know. I don't know how you'll keep me away. Like, I don't know how I could not go to the NBA Finals. It's hard for me to dream of that, but that would be genuinely exciting.

[Bill Simmons]

It's going to be. I think it's already one of the harder tickets in the history of basketball. And then there's the combo of Dolan just hoarding all the tickets and not giving any to the league. And so it's just like, hey, I'm taking care of my people. Steve Schrepa has been coming here the whole time. He's going to stay in his seat. Like, he's weirdly loyal in a way that I love. What was the darkest moment for you, Ariel? Sean said it was when they signed Randall was rock bottom for him. What was rock bottom for you?

[Ariel Helwani]

Well, there are two moments where I really started to question myself. The first was the night that Oakley got dragged out of the building. That was dark. That was really dark. I adore Charles Oakley and I will to the day I die. And he meant so much to those teams. And I still believe that his numbers should be retired. And I think Starks number should be retired as well. That was very, very dark. And then the aftermath was a little weird. You remember the interviews and the media tour and all that as far as like, actual basketball. The day they traded Porzingis, I felt like, what the hell are we doing? Because I believed in my soul. I actually feel this way about Brunson and Josh as well. I could see Kristaps Porzingis holding a trophy. Like, I could see that guy being a champion some way somehow. And it ended up coming true. He was just wearing a green jersey when he did it. And I didn't understand why they gave up on him. Like, I would have much rather give up on Phil Jackson or anyone else. And so to me on that day, I was like, I don't know if I could do this. When they didn't get KD and Kyrie, I was bummed. But you know, KD was coming off the Achilles. I've never been a big Kyrie fan. I was definitely bummed, but I didn't feel like this was the end. I felt like it was a gamble, quite honestly. And I didn't hate the Randle signing as well. So those two were really, really dark. Because Oakley has meant so much to this team and to this city, and he didn't deserve that. And it's so great seeing all the legends. I miss seeing him. One of the great stories is seeing Ewing back in the fold here Those videos of Ewing rocking up with the guys, off the team bus, into the locker room wearing his gear, looking like he could give you a solid 20 minutes, you know, maybe 10 and 10. Like, he looks ready to go. He's slimmed down. I love that content. I can't get enough of it. So it's nice to see all the legends, but we're missing one big guy, and I pray that they're able to figure it out.

[Bill Simmons]

A friend of mine, pretty connected, had good seats for one of the games, Game four, Game six. And sitting next to him was one of the. It was like, Starks, one of those guys. Like, oh, my God. And then he just happened to be in the area where, like, six of them were, and it was like his young adulthood came to life, and he was just, like, almost having a seizure. It is crazy. How many. To me, like, look, I'm not a Knicks fan. I'm obviously a giant basketball fan. When we start moving into the Marbury era, that gets a little where it's like, hey, look, there's Marbury. It's like, nothing good happened with Marbury the entire time he was with the Knicks. Like, there's some of those.

[Sean Fennessey]

But I think he's a son of New York, though. Like, there's a slight. There's a more complicated thing there.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I just think the. The. The Celtics version of when we bring the greats back is a little. You usually have to have had one good thing happen.

[Ariel Helwani]

18 to 2, by the way. You know, it's my, like, totally irrational dark day. When we traded Maciek Lampi to the Suns for Sva Marbury, I was convinced that Lampy was going to be the guy. He was our Polish prince. I thought that he would be, like our European stud.

[Bill Simmons]

And also when they got rid of.

[Ariel Helwani]

There was something about him that I just love. And also Billy Hernan Gomez, I thought that he was going to be something special for us as well. Like, there was all these guys, and that's part of the fun, right? Going through these. These stories and seeing all these Alexis Shved like, those guys. Like, that's what makes all this worth it. You remember him? He had a great run.

[Bill Simmons]

Before we go, since I have both of you here, there's a UFC movie coming out with the Rock that the Rock is allegedly a real Oscars contender for. So Sean follows this stuff obsessively. And then. This is Ariel's domain. Ariel, what have you heard?

[Ariel Helwani]

Okay, what have I heard about the film? The film is called the Smashing Machine. It's based on, in my opinion, one of, if not the best combat sports documentaries of all time. It's about a guy named Mark Kerr who had a crazy life, had a run in the ufc, but was really a star in Pride, which was an organization in Japan when Pride was the number one MMA organization in the world in the early 2000s. And HBO, it's 2000, 2001, that this film came out, put on this documentary when, you know, remember back then, 2000, 2001, like, no one was airing anything about MMA. It was as far away from mainstream as possible. And there's drugs and there's all kinds of stuff involved. And so the film is based on, you know, the Rock movie is based on that documentary. So my hopes are very, very high just given the subject matter. And I think initially people thought, are they gonna be able to pull it off? Is it gonna be too high? Is the Rock the right guy for all of this? But once that trailer came out, I mean, I can speak for the MMA community, everyone was like, holy crap, this looks a legit. It looks spot on. And it looks like they were able to capture the essence of that time period. So, you know, they got guys like Oleksandr Usyk in there, Ryan Bader playing Mark Coleman. Like, I saw some of the footage and I mean, just from the three minute clip, I think they kind of nailed it. I can't wait for this. And you know this as well as anyone, but, like, there haven't been a lot of great MMA movies. You know, we got Here Comes the.

[Bill Simmons]

Boom, and Warrior is the best one, I think.

[Ariel Helwani]

Not a lot of them for some bizarre reason. Obviously, you know, not as old as boxing, but this could be it. And perhaps this is the one that gets the Rock's movie career back on track, which I would love.

[Bill Simmons]

What's funny is they've been cranked. They've been cranking out boxing movies pretty, pretty consistently for 100 years. And just when you think, like, they've made enough boxing movies, then another one comes out, another one comes out. I thought that the one with. About the female boxer, Krista Shields thought that was actually good.

[Ariel Helwani]

Fire Inside.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but you would have thought, you would have thought there would be more mma, and there just hasn't. All right, so, Sean, we did. You've talked about this on your part a bunch. We did a video on ringer movies about. About, is it ever gonna happen for the Rock? Why is the movie star thing, has the ship sailed? And then you see this trailer and it's like, okay, Maybe we're back in.

[Sean Fennessey]

To me, it was a mystery, and now it's just a frustration that it has taken this long for two reasons. One, I know you both know this. Never seen anybody better on the mic, short of Ric Flair in pro wrestling. I mean, he was just in the prime of the attitude era, and even in the second half, moving into the Cena era, he was unbelievable at just selling anything. And a huge part of being a movie star is selling the absurd, is selling the ridiculous setup. So on that face, he should have been incredible. And then secondarily, I always tell the story. I went to the premiere of Hobbs and Shaw, whatever that was, seven, eight years ago, and it was at the Kodak Theater in Hollywood, and someone's soda rolled down the aisle and smashed into a chair, which then triggered a fuse explosion and the lights turned off in the theater. So there was a delay before the film started. And to stem the tide and keep the people in their seats, Dwayne came out and just riffed for 25 minutes, just talked, made tons of jokes at Jason Statham's expense. Just sold, sold, sold for 25 minutes in front of 2,000 people waiting for this movie to start. And he was magnetic. And then I see the movies that he makes and I'm like, who told him to do this? Why is he in Jungle Cruise? Why did Black Adam happen? I don't understand. Because you see him communicating, you can tell just what a vibrant, fascinating, funny, self aware person he is. And he just hasn't picked good collaborators. And the end note on this conversation is the person who directed the Smashing Machine is Benny Safdie, a Knicks fan and New Yorker who understands the peculiarity of strange characters. And Mark Kerr is an interesting guy. And the Smashing Machine documentary is not a cookie cutter portrait of a rise to greatness. It's much more complex than that. So I think if you care about sports movies, if you care about the rock, if you're interested in combat sports, it feels like it's tailor made for an incredible moment for him and for movies we'll see.

[Bill Simmons]

I care about all three of those things. The problem is with UFC and MMA in general. It's such a passionate, loud audience. But then I always wonder, how big is the actual audience? Right? I know Netflix is thinking about, you know, it's been reported, do they want to get in and grab some pay per views? Like, I wonder if Netflix got some pay per views, Ariel. And it's just going to all these different countries. Does that make MMA bigger or did we hit the ceiling already, like, is there new people to find? Cause I think this ties into the movie. How much audience is left that's out there?

[Ariel Helwani]

Oh, there's a ton left. I mean, we're seeing a guy named Ilya Topuria who has just opened this whole Spanish region that was nonexistent. And they're saying that he can headline the Bernabeu, which is where Real Madrid play. And that's like 80,000 people. That wasn't an option two, three years ago. And so when guys start to pop up in these different countries and then people will emerge here. And it's very cyclical. There's high moments, there's down moments, there's stars. The whole Russian region, that wasn't really a thing five, six years ago. And now you have all these guys who are.

[Bill Simmons]

France came on too. That was another one.

[Ariel Helwani]

Yes. So Brazil. France has been incredible as far as MMA and pro wrestling. So, no, they have not. They have not hit the ceiling. As you know, combat sports, like I said, there are peaks and valleys. And everyone likes to say. I even said, I said the MMA business is in a recession, but I didn't say the UFC is in a recession. I said the MMA business, meaning there's just really one dominant league. There are no prides anymore. And that's unfortunate. We don't have, and I think we've talked about this in the past, there is no aew to UFC's WWE right now. Not even close. Like, not even close. So the UFC is doing just fine. They're going to get a multi billion dollar deal. Whenever they sign their new deal, ESPN will probably still be involved in some way, shape or form, and it will continue to get bigger. But as you know, it only goes as far as like who the stars are. Right. The UFC always wants to position itself as the biggest star. The ufc, that's the brand and it's doing great. But then when you get those superstars that come along, and they will continue to come along and it goes to a whole other level. And they're experiencing that with Topuria, who's headlining on June 28, and they'll experience it with others as well.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he took the Pereira side. I'm still, still bitter. My guy Pereira. Yeah. Yeah. Cause you think Sean, with the MMA audience, that's kind of dormant for a movie to really hit for the rock, you've got to hit different countries. He hits different countries anyway. And if that audience is there. So this could be the rare combo of like an awards contender that actually makes real money. That's not a franchise.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, it's coming out in the first week of April, or, excuse me, the first week of October, which is historically a kind of a circling the square for box office and awards consideration. That's like the same weekend that a movie like the Star Is Born was released. So I think they're looking for a kind of like, commercial, critically acclaimed movie, which is, as we know, like one of the hardest things to do in movies right now. And we'll see.

[Bill Simmons]

My advice to him would be don't over promote it. Don't feel like you need to be all over the place with it. Like, be a little discreet. Because I don't feel like the over promotion stuff works with the awards. And this is like his one chance. But I hope, I hope we get more MMA stuff just in general. I'm always amazed that that's not a lane for movies right now. Would seem like that would be even easier to do than boxing.

[Ariel Helwani]

You guys are the experts when it comes to this. But actually, just today on my show, I spoke to Ryan Bader, who's playing Mark Coleman in the movie. And Mark Coleman was Mark Kerr's best friend. Looks just like him from the photos that I saw. And I actually asked him, like, that was his first movie. He's a former UFC title contender, Bellator champion. What was it like just being on set, sitting around, the multiple takes? Did you just drive yourself crazy? And he said, and again, this is not my world. But he said, actually, Benny's philosophy is don't do too many takes, like three, four takes. If the Rock's mouthpiece came out, like, keep it. He wants it to be raw. He kind of shot it like a documentary, which actually made me even more interested in seeing how it all looks. So I don't know if that's unique. I don't know if that's something different, if certain guys do that, but I thought that was interesting. By the way, shout out to Bill for completely changing the subject and not maybe focusing on Miles McBride's this huge block. And that's. You remember that chase down in Game 6 when he blocked and then they came back with the N1. Like, I love the way you just transitioned away. That was a big time block, you have to admit.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, I had to. I had to get 10 minutes at UFC with you when you're here.

[Ariel Helwani]

I mean, I just thought we'd talk more. Like, do we want to talk about how Missoula was exposed? Like, how he doesn't really, you know, like, settle down.

[Bill Simmons]

We won the title last year?

[Ariel Helwani]

Yeah, I mean, he just inherited the team. Can he be.

[Bill Simmons]

Can he be.

[Ariel Helwani]

Can he be a little nicer to the media? Like the. The shtick of being like, you know, like grumpy is wearing a little thin. Just my two cents, but yeah. Luke Cornett.

[Bill Simmons]

Wayne and Belichick's girlfriend. Now what. What. What other hits do you want to take?

[Ariel Helwani]

Cornett. Cornett had a great game five. I mean, like, let's.

[Bill Simmons]

Thanks.

[Ariel Helwani]

Are we raising a banner for the game 5 or what?

[Bill Simmons]

What's telling our grandkids about it? We won the title last year. I'm in a five year grace period. All right, guys, good luck against the Pacers in round three. I'm happy for you.

[Ariel Helwani]

Still picking the Pacers?

[Sean Fennessey]

Wait, I was going to say you're picking against us or what? I hear you and Rosillo and you guys just spent all this time hyping the Pacers and kind of like not negging the Knicks but just not addressing the Knicks.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's either Pacers in six or Knicks in seven. I don't think the Pacers can win a game seven against a healthy Knicks team with the way the arena will be. But we'll see the net. My fear for you guys. There's a couple health guys I do not trust on your team who have stayed reasonably healthy so far. Townsend, an obi, not to mention Mitchell Robinson, who every game you get out of him is. Feels like a miracle. So I just, you know, these playoff games are hard. They're intense. That's. I feel like the Pacers are probably a little more durable when this thing gets really physical than maybe the Knicks are. But who knows? You might have the team of Destiny thing and the Brunson thing's unbelievable. When he rooting against that guy in a playoff series in the fourth quarters, I just felt like he was going to score on us. And we had like, we had Holiday on him. We were throwing Tatum and Brown on him, and I just felt like he was going to get. When he shook Holiday on that, that one shot, I think. I can't remember if it was game one or game two. Coming off the inbounds with like 10 seconds left just. Just shook him off and got the shot he wanted. Like, that was crazy. Nobody does that to Jrue Holiday.

[Sean Fennessey]

So can I tell you something? I watched the 4 minute cut down recap of game 4 like 11 times in a row that night just to watch him absolutely cook white. He cooked white all day long. That was astonishing to watch. Whether he can do that to Aaron fucking Neesmith. We're about to find out.

[Ariel Helwani]

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I'm so worried about Neesmith. He just dealt with Thompson, Brown, Tatum, Derek White.

[Bill Simmons]

I like this.

[Ariel Helwani]

The cocky I remembered about Neesmith. Don't get so worried about him.

[Bill Simmons]

Just keep it in check.

[Ariel Helwani]

What about nismet? What about T.J. mcConnell? Picking him up 94ft. The horror.

[Bill Simmons]

There is going to be some 94ft. They're going to try to put some miles on your guy. They're going to try to wear him down.

[Ariel Helwani]

I'm cool with it.

[Bill Simmons]

Good luck. Thanks for coming on. I'm glad you were finally able to come on under happy circumstances. It was a pleasure to see you both.

[Sean Fennessey]

Thank you, Bill.

[Ariel Helwani]

Thank you.

[Bill Simmons]

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[Ariel Helwani]

Really?

[Bill Simmons]

Is that any replay?

[Ben Thompson]

No. Atrocious fake Giannis traits I had to seriously consider. Is it worth coming on a podcast with someone that apparently seriously proposed Giannis for Evan Mobley? Are you joking?

[Bill Simmons]

Can I explain the thought process behind it and then you can tell me how offended you should be.

[Ben Thompson]

I mean, it's going to be hard to decrease the level, but sure, go ahead.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, first of all, I don't think you should trade Giannis, which I said in the pod, I think you should keep Giannis because especially with the way the east is going to be.

[Ben Thompson]

Oh, it's so bad. It's so bad. But it's embarrassing.

[Bill Simmons]

If you're going to trade them, you can't do the Kevin Durant, get a bunch of picks back and go for the future because you don't have any of your own picks. That makes no sense. So I need to get a good player back and I'm shopping on that Evan Moby level, looking at 80 cents in the dollar if I'm trading honest. That's what you have to do.

[Ben Thompson]

No, I get the overall thought process. There's a few problems here. So number one, this whole situation sucks. Just to be clear, you know, the, there's a real trade off. What's good for the Bucks, what's good for Giannis. I mean, the reality is if I'm going to take all emotion out of it, it's probably best for both parties, you know, to, to move on. I mean the Bucks are, it's, it's in a, it's really rough. I mean we were starting, the fan base was happy. They were starting Kevin Porter Jr. In the final game of the playoffs. I mean it's, you can't over how bad it was, but you can't. The other thing, if you're a Giannis fan, just to be honest, the fact you're proposing this seriously speaks to, in my opinion, how disrespected Giannis is. I mean this is a guy that, it was one game only, completely handled the Oklahoma City Thunder because he's a star who can initiate offense, he can score in volume. We know he's much better than say a Jokic at defense. I think his capabilities on offense as an initiator are underrated as well and by the way, as long as I'm here, rated as well. And Bezema is at par or better than Jokic's if you include all defense, if you include defensive player of the year, if you include the NBA cup, which hilariously no one does. But it's like his resume is there and he's, he's really good. He initiates offense, he has a mid range game now and he's dramatically underrated as a Giannis fan. I want him to go somewhere and get his proper recognition as a Bucks fan. It breaks my heart and as someone who had to watch the Indiana Pacers, I'm lucky I still my eyes that I didn't gouge them out when. And you're also. You're dealing with an organization also that just doesn't know what they're doing. I know Doc's your friend. Sorry. He was a disaster. He's coaching from 25 years ago. They also haven't adjusted to Giannis's capabilities as an offensive initiator. They're still building the team like it's 2019 when the Toronto Raptors doubles kind of overwhelmed him a bit. Although in that series he was still the best player at a positive plus minus. What? Didn't play enough minutes. But he, he is the key is him at point center. Like that's how you win in the playoffs. The Bucks, I thought were building towards that with the Kuzma trade. Doc never plays Guzma at the 4. Probably wouldn't have mattered. He's horrible. But they never even got approaching the right approach with him. So it's just been a disaster all around. And at the same time, he's Giannis. Like, he's loyal. He likes Milwaukee. He doesn't want to go somewhere there's a very good chance we're back whenever we get back. We were supposed to be out a year ago, then the bus got flushed out. It was very sad and nothing has happened. So we'll see.

[Bill Simmons]

All right. You gave me a lot to work with there.

[Ben Thompson]

So sorry I had to get that all out. I was to make sure I got that in. You know, express my disappointment with you with your Giannis assertions over the last few weeks. Giannis better than Tatum? Come on, get out of here. Or yet to him, better than Giannis, I should say.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, Tatum's hurt now, so he is better.

[Ben Thompson]

I know I can't even truly go in on him. It's very sad. Real, real disappointment.

[Bill Simmons]

Giannis being underrated. That's just Bucks bullshit. He's in. He's third, second, third, fourth or first in the MVP voting every single year. It's not like he falls to nine. He's always in the top three or top four. He's always first team all NBA.

[Ben Thompson]

He doesn't get cheap MVPs for finishing six in his conference because some players got hurt. Like for some reason. It's always all his fault. Oh, by the way, as long as I'm here, your what if segment a few podcasts ago. What if segment, Guess what if? Is Kris Middleton getting hurt in the 2022 playoffs?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, we had. Robert Williams was hurt too. Like, come on, not get out of here.

[Ariel Helwani]

That's even.

[Ben Thompson]

Are you more offensive than comparing Giannis and Evan Mobley? Robert Williams, prime Chris Middleton.

[Bill Simmons]

Wait a second. So if you're keeping Giannis versus trading. If you're trading them, you have to trade into a place that has a chance to win the title, right? Can we agree on that?

[Ben Thompson]

Yeah. So you. And to your point, the Bucks need. The problem is their picks are scattered. There's like two swaps in a pick with Portland, which everyone forgets about, plus the swap slash picks with the Pelicans. So if you don't get someone good back, you have to get some of those picks back. There's no hope for the franchise otherwise.

[Bill Simmons]

But that's a conundrum though. Portland doesn't want Giannis because they're on their own timeline and he's not going to want to go to New Orleans. So you're not getting those picks back.

[Ben Thompson]

Well, it's a three or four way deal if something like that happens. In reality, there's two options and maybe one dark horse that makes sense for the Bucks. Option number one is a package around Amen Thompson. Amin Thompson. There's like. I personally think Amen might be a little overrated right now, but. Which means if I'm the Rockets, I should definitely want to trade him. But that is that. It has to be someone like that or the number two pick from the spurs. And both teams can throw in a lot of extra picks and assets. Those are the only two that from a Bucs perspective makes sense. And every Bucs fan is going to kill me. There is a potential Philadelphia 76ers package as well.

[Bill Simmons]

What? What is it?

[Ben Thompson]

Maxi McCain, number three pick. And you know, they have. They have the Clippers pick. They have a surprisingly high number of assets. I don't think it works because they have a similar problem to the Bucks. They have a 50 million or $60 million hole on their roster. Our hole is named Damian Lillard. Their hole is named Joel Embiid. But they do have a shockingly high number of assets that augmented by getting the number three pick.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm Giannis, though I'm staying in Milwaukee over going to Philly and rolling the dice with Embiid. Why am I doing that?

[Ben Thompson]

Oh, me. Yeah, me too. I'm just putting that out there because no one's talking about it. I think it. I think it's actually kind of interesting. And if I was Giannis, I'd want to stay in the East. Like it Is. It's unbelievable.

[Ariel Helwani]

Who's.

[Ben Thompson]

Who's your pick for the east next year?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, that's the thing. It's New York and Indiana. The Celtics are probably out of the mix. Your team's in there. Detroit.

[Ben Thompson]

Yeah, Orlando. I mean Detroit might be the one. I mean, here's my advice to you. I have advice for the Celtics.

[Bill Simmons]

Wait, don't. I don't want your advice on the Celtics.

[Ariel Helwani]

No.

[Ben Thompson]

It ties to the Bucks though. The Celtics need to blow it up.

[Ariel Helwani]

The Bucks though.

[Ben Thompson]

The Bucks problem was trying to preserve the old model which was built around Holiday pressuring the ball handler, Lopez backing him up. The moment you get Dame, that whole thing needs to change. You need to reorganize the team, get a bunch of wings. Resigning Lopez was a mistake. You know, not prioritizing the wrong people even. Even at the minimum level was a mistake. And to me this sucks for Celtics, but they should trade everyone.

[Bill Simmons]

So you're saying the window, eight year window, it's now closed. Blow it up. Rebuild around Tatum and you have a.

[Ben Thompson]

Chance to rebuild it because you know Tatum, what just started his extension like this was the Bucks mistake is the further you go down trading the future, you're so pot committed and so in the hole that it's, I mean best case scenario, people on Bucks Twitter are all about trade. Like their late first round pick this year to try to get two or three, their 20, 31 pick to get two picks this year, try to just sort of get enough people and like pray for like two years from now when you have a 35 year old point guard coming off an Achilles industry like that's our best case scenario.

[Bill Simmons]

It's.

[Ben Thompson]

It's very ugly. It's not great.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, if you go through the contenders, Oklahoma City, if they lose one of the next two rounds, I guess would be a possibility. But if I'm Oklahoma City and I'm taking the giant money Giannis is making combined with all the other money they're going to have to shell out. I'm not sure I'm doing that.

[Ben Thompson]

Yeah, the problem with Oklahoma City is you're selling out money to guys who I don't think might not be worth that money. I mean, I understand what they're doing, keeping all these picks and having a few stars and just continually cycling everyone out. I love Jalen Williams on my fantasy team. I've had him the last two years. The regular season is not the playoffs. That has never been clearer than ever. The problem though is any picks from a team Giannis goes to are Worthless because Giannis is really good and will make those picks worthless. So you need picks from other teams or a three. I mean, they could maybe do a three way sort of trade with the Pelicans or Portland or something like that, but very hard to pull off.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, so I'm going to say OKC is a thumbs down.

[Ben Thompson]

South Dakota thumbs down in the conversation. But again, Presti probably wouldn't do it. I mean, I think realistically, if he seems straight for Yanis, if they get the honest, they're going to win. I mean, the problem is I don't feel like Sam Presti really wants to win, which is why I am cheering against Oklahoma City continuously. I feel like in the NBA you.

[Bill Simmons]

Should have to go for takes out tonight. Sam Presti doesn't really want to win. That's a take. I would say he wants to win. He's trying to build a decade.

[Ben Thompson]

Yeah, exactly. It's like it's the small market version of light years. This idea that instead of going all in around what you have and doing everything possible to get one. And by the way, the Bucs got one. I am fundamentally, I'm disappointed Giannis doesn't have more. I'm disappointed the Bucks have more. I am very grateful that they got one and we'll talk to Oklahoma City fans. If they end up getting it, then congratulations. I think that Minnesota is pretty good. We'll see how it goes. If they get one, congratulations. If they don't, let's talk in a decade and see how you felt about the decade long project to make the Western Conference finals.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, that's how I feel about the Celtics from 2016 and now it's a nine year run. They won one title, but at least we had the one title. You had. You had the Giannis thing. Everyone is like, oh my God, Giannis, how is he in this situation? Well, you made two massive trades where you gave up a shitload of assets and it paid off with the, with the title. Then it didn't pay off with Dame, but that's how you get in this situation. Yeah.

[Ben Thompson]

And at the end of the day, like I, I, the last time I was on here was after the Dame trade. I, I should probably not come on spitting takes. I should come on eating some humble pie after how that happened.

[Bill Simmons]

We argued about that for the entire summer.

[Ben Thompson]

Yeah, you're right. So I will come out and admit that's the case. But you know what? They went for it and it didn't work out. And I had a decade of Giannis the Bucs won a title which I didn't think I'd ever see in my lifetime. So at the end of the day, I'm good and I practice self care. I just don't watch too many Bucs games when I realize exactly what's going to happen.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you talked about. So if you go through the contenders Knicks, I mean, I don't see.

[Ben Thompson]

No, this is the one that bugs me. The Knicks blew their load and that's where I wanted Giannis to go. If this was going to go wrong, I wanted him in Madison Square Garden 100% would get the respect he deserves, would get the Internet fighters he deserves and would just blow up that city. And alas, I guess if you want Mikel Bridges instead, better win this year or else you're going to hear it from me for a while.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, what if the Knicks fell short in one of the next two rounds and then there's some sort of towns with Bridges for Giannis and the problem is they don't have any picks to throw in.

[Ben Thompson]

Yeah, that's no good for the Bucks. I mean the Bucks need. It's a small market team. Like you're not going to get a bunch. You're not going to think. How the Knicks built their team is, all things considered, pretty impressive. I think they went like. I think the Bridges trade was probably the mistake just because of how much you gave.

[Bill Simmons]

Unless they get the title, then it's not a mistake.

[Ben Thompson]

Exactly. No, that's the thing. It's a little humbling that they've made it this far. Cause I dropped that take earlier in the playoffs on Twitter and Knicks fans have been throwing it in my face ever since. And it's a fair point. That's the other. I'm actually curious if you do, you know, if you update the book of basketball again, which we all know, you know, now that you're a professional podcaster, I don't know if you've written anything in.

[Bill Simmons]

Is that above typing?

[Ben Thompson]

Yeah, exactly. You can't do it on your phone. Or maybe you can. Okay, but what. How do you evaluate players from this era? I just compared Giannis and Jokic. Right. Like if Giannis and Jokic play in the 80s and 90s, both who have games that I think would scale very well to those eras in a world where the illegal defense player movement, all these sorts of things favor stars to such a massive extent. Do they have more than one title? Unquestionably. Does the fact the NBA is going to have seven teams in seven years actually mean that both of them deserve a bit of a adjustment in their all time rankings despite only having one title. It's pretty interesting to think about historically.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Because 30 teams, a lot of talent. It's way harder to keep a team together like we're seeing now with the Celtics and some other ones.

[Ben Thompson]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

I always compare the guys in the era. First you got to start there with who are you going against and how much did you stand out. Both of those guys qualify. I think both of them are in that Shaq, Moses, Hakeem kind of area. Yeah, I think Durant's probably in there too.

[Ben Thompson]

I think that, I think that's right.

[Bill Simmons]

Somewhere in that 11 to 16 range. And I think what Jokic has done year after year offensively might, might give him a little bit of a trump card. Giannis is basically 30, 12 and 6 for seven straight years. Right.

[Ben Thompson]

Go through and look at the resumes. It would actually surprise you. Jokic's one advantage is one more mvp, which I think was bs, but whatever. Add in defensive impact, defensive player of the year, all defensive teams and Bill the Emirates NBA Cup.

[Bill Simmons]

Come on. Well, wait, so let's go back to the exercise of going through all the contenders because you mentioned Houston. I want to come back to them. Knicks are out, Lakers are out, Denver's out. Indiana. I don't. I just can't imagine the right trade for that. You start going down the list.

[Ben Thompson]

No, it's Houston, Minnesota, Houston, San Antonio. Houston's the one, that team that should do it.

[Bill Simmons]

Is there a Golden State? Anything that interests you there? Nothing.

[Ben Thompson]

No, it's ridiculous. Golden State and their organization and the media and the fans have fully completed their transition to Lakerdom. Just delusionally overrating their players, assuming everyone will just end up on their team. There's no world. I mean, number one, they did get Jimmy Butler somehow. As long as we're insulting your takes. Jonathan Kamiga stinks, you know, Athletic specimen, to be sure. Doesn't know what he's doing anywhere on the court. I would love to see Giannis and Curry together. We thought we were getting that with Giannis and Dame moving off the ball. The problem, the Giannis and Dame problem is, and this is a classic NBA problem, it's actually been really interesting to watch, which is one of my. One of those interesting players I watched in the Bucks was Christian Wood. And Christian Wood was a very skilled player. The problem was he could only play as the number one guy. He was completely incapable of scaling down to another position and he wants to be the Number and so you can see what happens when he's the number one guy. He goes to Detroit, scores a lot of points, and that team wins like 15 games. Like that's the quality of his being a number one guy. And he also played the same position as Giannis, so. So some Bucks fans were upset when we shipped him out, but to me it was obvious he was never, ever going to be sort of a useful player in that regard. There's a little bit of a similar dynamic with Dame. Dame's a great player. I'm not comparing him to Christian Wood at all. He carried those Portland teams for years and years and he carried them mostly to the second round of the playoffs. And he couldn't really scale to being a number two when Giannis is a top two number one guy. And that was really the core problem. When Dane played by himself, it was great. When Giannis played by himself, it was great. And when Dane played with Giannis, it was this weird passiveness and like, it almost felt like it felt like he was being passive aggressive about it. But I don't think that was the case. I just think he wasn't able to sort of scale in that way. And so from a basketball fan perspective, I love watching this with teams, right? You, you see an up and coming team and they have to figure out organically who's the number one guy, who's the number two guy, who's number three guy. It's such, it's the human component of basketball that's so interesting. And if I weren't a Buck fan suffering through it, watching the Giannis Dame experience was fascinating in that way. And that's the fundamental reason why I think it didn't work out.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I noticed it. Not really having a dog in the race. Sometimes guys really have trouble figuring out when to slide in and out. I think that's what's been so impressive over the years with Jaylen Brown is he feels like it's Tatum's team, but he has a sense of when to come and go depending on the moment. Well, at least, yeah.

[Ben Thompson]

I mean, it's easier. It's easier when you have two number two guys. So.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the only other team there was. There was a Memphis one too. For I'm ignoring you. There was a Memphis like A Jaren Jackson 1. But the reason I thought of the Mobley was because you get a guy under contract for five years, he's one of the 15 or 16 best guys in the league and still has some room to go up. I think he is when I do Ringer 100, I have him in. I forget what. I had him in the last one, but, you know, he just won the player of the year.

[Ben Thompson]

The problem with all this stuff is the playoffs are so different than the regular season. It's a cliche, but it's more true than ever.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ben Thompson]

And the problem with Mobley and what you need in a guy like that is someone who imposes himself on the other team, someone that the other team.

[Bill Simmons]

Has not going to be. Amen Thompson either. I hate to break it to you.

[Ben Thompson]

I don't think so either, honest, but I think there's at least the potential there. I mean, I. I would say Mobley.

[Bill Simmons]

Has as much potential for that.

[Ben Thompson]

I don't know. He's been in the league five, six years. When. When. When is he. What have you felt? Mobley imposing himself on you like, Thompson has done that on the defensive end and occasional flashes on offense. Now, again, to be clear, I don't think so. I don't think he's going to get there offensively, but.

[Bill Simmons]

But the ceiling's a bit in the.

[Ben Thompson]

The ceiling. If I'm the Bucks, I can see it. To me, the only. The play is. Again, the play is probably San Antonio, which is disgusting to me.

[Bill Simmons]

So you're saying number two, Devon Vassell, to make the contracts work. One other contract and then more picks.

[Ben Thompson]

A ton of picks. They have, they have. They have a huge stash of picks. And the interesting ones, like, they have like an Atlanta pick. They have. Like, the key thing is you need. Ideally you get picks from teams you're not trading Giannis to, because Giannis is going to make those picks worthless. And so you either need hope that the Bucks can tank into a good player, which means you need the Portland picks back and the Falcons picks back, which is going to be really hard, or you need someone like Thompson that. I would love to get a Thompson jersey that does make me excited or make me something like the number two pick pick that there. You got your. You got your Tanktastic pick right off the bat and you can.

[Bill Simmons]

So then. And then you're basically like, I don't care about our own picks. Those are sunk costs. Let's just try to figure this out.

[Ben Thompson]

You need at least one core piece, either the chance at it with your own picks or the number two pick or Thompson. And it's really hard to see anything else. I mean, maybe the number three pick, but also, it seems like Harper is the clear number two. And I, I'm still not sold on.

[Bill Simmons]

That, by the way, I looked at my Ringer 100 that I turned in for the last time we did it, which is a couple weeks ago. I had Mobley 13th. He's 23 years old.

[Ben Thompson]

You know, in NBA history, even if you put him at 13th, the gap between 1.5 and 13, it's astronomical. So, yeah, where do the Bucks just tank? I guess they can't tank. They have no fix.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the real move is to keep Giannis and take it into the season. Say he's staying, see how it goes, and then he'll probably have just as much, if not more value from December to February, I would think.

[Ariel Helwani]

Yeah.

[Ben Thompson]

It's just so hard to trade a contractor that size. That's the other thing that makes this difficult, is how many of these teams have sufficient flotsam to trade to make up that the salary difference. I mean, I personally am probably the most pro Houston, even though I'm hesitant about Thompson, I'm pro Houston for Giannis's sake in that they are like an amazing team with no star. That's their problem. And Giannis, I think putting Giannis, they would have to build around him.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but I'm not doing that trade if I'm Houston. If I have to also give up Thompson, because I need him to be one of my best three guys to actually try to win the title if I'm actually trading for Giannis. You know what I mean?

[Ben Thompson]

No, because you're getting one. One of the best or the. Arguably the best player in the NBA. I think. I think Houston, with Giannis, with their assets, wins a title with Giannis.

[Bill Simmons]

Thompson was their best player in the playoffs, though. Dan Vliet, Dylan Brooks, like that. I don't think that's. You need Thompson, you need all the stuff he does. That's.

[Ben Thompson]

I was going to make a joke about he was the best player in the playoffs that ended the first round. But as a Bucks fan, it's hard.

[Bill Simmons]

To drag it to that. Yeah. No. So you're thinking. So you would do Thompson. I think the Van Vliet contract probably has to be in it to make the honest thing work.

[Ben Thompson]

Yeah, I see a fake trade somewhere. A bunch of trades. Yeah. I think ideally we'd get someone like Jabari Smith, too. Jabari Smith might be bad. His three point percentages are disappointing.

[Bill Simmons]

I like him.

[Ben Thompson]

He has. Yeah, he hasn't played with great guards, so that's. That's kind of the argument for it. He's definitely just a supporting piece.

[Bill Simmons]

Stick him in the corner and just tell him to jack up threes if they happen to pass him the ball, and that's kind of what he does.

[Ben Thompson]

I mean, I am someone that's easy to get. Overly biased by Summer league. Jabari Smith was awesome at summer league last year. He's like, oh, a couple years ago, the number two player making a leap, Ahmed Thompson. Oh, man, one of the best summer league debuts ever. Just absolutely incredible. But, yeah, it's probably Texas. Or Bust Giannis, by the way. Very cheap, no taxes. He will like that a lot. That literally might be what pushes him over the edge.

[Bill Simmons]

I know, but see, the problem is, the reason I like the Cleveland trade for him was because, all right, if I'm leaving Milwaukee, I have all these ties here. I've been here since 2013. I want to go to a place where I'm now the favorite to win the title. That's not the case if he goes to Houston or San Antonio. If you flip him in Mobley, he is now the favorite to come out of the east, like, unquestionably with the team they already have. And that's what I thought was the appealing piece.

[Ben Thompson]

Yeah, well, I think I get your point. It's interesting. Are you looking at it from the Giannis perspective or the Bucks perspective?

[Bill Simmons]

I think you have to look at it from the honest perspective because you're throwing him a solid by trading him because he's your guy, and if you want to put him in a good situation.

[Ben Thompson]

In the Bucks defense, I think they've made a lot of poor decisions. I don't understand why John Horst got a contract extension. I think he's done a terrible job. But they did spend a lot of money. They did win a title. I think they've done right by Giannis, all things considered, and you owe it to the organization to maximize the return.

[Bill Simmons]

But what if he calls? He's like, I will go to these three spots and Houston's not one of them. Then it gets a little. I personally don't think going to San Antonio guarantees him anything. I don't know if wembanyama. Like, do we even know he's going to be playing 60 games a year with his. His body makes me nervous. He's already gone down once.

[Ben Thompson]

What cares the deal. San Antonio may have a disappointing supporting cast. That supporting cast is like 10x better than what the Bucks were charging this year. Like. Like I.

[Bill Simmons]

But you're in the West. I'm in the west instead of the East. If I'm in. If I'm on Cleveland, I'm cruising I have to worry about the Knicks and the Celtics two years from now and Detroit.

[Ben Thompson]

For Giannis, it'd be great. I'm saying for the Bucks, it'd be a disaster.

[Bill Simmons]

You want to send them to the other conference if you're the Bucs?

[Ben Thompson]

Well, it's not even that I don't mind, actually. I would like Giannis to go to the east for Giannis's sake, because I want him to win a bunch more titles and it's definitely going to be much easier. If you're the Bucks, though, and you're facing this, one of the worst holes in NBA history, you need more than Evan Mobley. That's just sort of the. So the long short of it. I mean, I actually, I know three way and four way trades are hard, but. But I think if this happened, the only two, the direct trades that make sense are San Antonio and Houston. If they're. There are possibilities that are almost impossible for us to build. And you see some of these trades come down and they actually get really quite complicated to Slotting.

[Bill Simmons]

So Giannis goes to Cleveland, Moby goes somewhere else, a whole bunch of stuff.

[Ben Thompson]

Or he goes to some other middle, you know, some somewhat contender and then some of those picks start coming back. That, that, that would be, that would be. I think that that's probably a chance to happen.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you think Cleveland. What if Milwaukee came back and said, we'll do it. If it's Mobley and Garland, so what?

[Ben Thompson]

We can have the same playoff performance Cleveland has had and we'll dump.

[Bill Simmons]

We'll dump. We'll give you Giannis and dump a contract on you and you can have Giannis and Mitchell then. I don't think that makes sense if I'm Cleveland.

[Ben Thompson]

Well, I don't know if. I mean, what are you, what are you building for Milwaukee? Yeah, I mean, if you want to be a sort of a middling team that has a second round ceiling, then just keep Giannis. That's, you know, again, it's only. It's ultimately up to Giannis. I mean, he's not, he's. He didn't. He's not a US Superstar. He didn't grow up in that culture. He's well documented, his sort of background, where he came from. He's very comfortable in Milwaukee.

[Bill Simmons]

He likes. And you won the title. You leave out the part that he has a ring already. It's not like he has to go chase it.

[Ben Thompson]

That's right. And you know, as my heart. My heart is split because it does kill me to listen to you to listen to everyone else. I think underappreciate how great he is because of how bad this situation is and I want better for him, but I love having him on my team.

[Bill Simmons]

So when I voted for him for third for mvp, should I put little stars next to it to show how much I cared or what did you want from me? Put a little chocolate on it.

[Ben Thompson]

I just, I don't want any comments about Tatum being better. I don't want him.

[Bill Simmons]

Tatum was better than one for Evan Mobile 560 games of the year and then Giannis came on like a freight train.

[Ben Thompson]

I don't know. Giannis is pretty good all year. By the way.

[Bill Simmons]

One thing, can I, can I do one Giannis critique? He does get a free pass for how when his teammates don't play well when they're next to him, it's always their fault. It's a little bit of LeBron. LeBron ish. Everybody like Malik Beasley is really good on Detroit now.

[Ben Thompson]

How was Malik Beasley in the playoffs? He was good with Milwaukee the regular season also and then stunk in the playoffs.

[Bill Simmons]

Grayson Allen was really good on Phoenix the year he left Milwaukee. I don't know, it's just we kids club it with Giannis a little bit. Giannis fucked up on the Halliburton drives in that game that they blew like Halbert went down three times in a row. I thought he was this octopus on defense.

[Ben Thompson]

Grayson Allen great in the every season, stunk in the playoffs. That's what happened to the Bucs too. You have a small guy with a slow release. They don't, they don't listen.

[Bill Simmons]

Jason Allen was the hero of the 2020 Celtics comeback.

[Ben Thompson]

Jason Tatum at every one of those coach K camps should be buying Grayson Allen caviar like, like whoever. I mean it was. Oh, I'm still mad at Bud about that. I mean but I guess it could always get worse. That's the Bud lesson.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, so. So we go. You're in favor of keeping Giannis or godfather offer from St. Antonio Houston? Because the one other thing we didn't mention when Davis went to the Lakers, the Lakers really wanted Davis because of LeBron and they had this window and they were going to do whatever it took. Ishbia when he really wanted Durant, he's like, fine, I'll throw in Cam Johnson. I'll do anything it takes. I don't know who the I'll do anything it takes to get Giannis team is yet.

[Ben Thompson]

I mean that would only because it.

[Bill Simmons]

Hasn'T emerged maybe it'll emerge over the next two rounds.

[Ben Thompson]

Yeah, I mean, we didn't see Minnesota emerge for Gobert until the trade actually happened. Right. And that package was pretty significant. And I think we can agree that Gobert is not even close to the level of a player that Giannis is. So. And that, by the way, no one was putting in the Timberwolves as competitors. I still not sure I like that trade, to be honest, a few years later.

[Bill Simmons]

But you can't deny they gave away way too much.

[Ben Thompson]

I mean, it worked out. Both things could be right. I need a rankings prediction, Bill. If Anthony Edwards wins this year at the age he won at, I mean.

[Bill Simmons]

We'Re no, you're in like Magic Bird. Magic bird under 25 territory. It's pretty nice.

[Ben Thompson]

I'm not sure it's fully appreciated. The trajectory that he might be on is. It's pretty amazing.

[Bill Simmons]

Ben Thompson, you can follow or subscribe to the Stratecheri newsletter, which has been an essential piece of does not have.

[Ben Thompson]

Any NBA talk, which is probably best for everyone.

[Bill Simmons]

No, it's good. Good to see you. Thanks for getting up early for us.

[Ben Thompson]

Yeah, talk to you later.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Fenasey and Ariel and Zach and Ben and Gahal and Eduardo for producing. You can watch these as video podcasts on Spotify. If you did not know that, you can check out the Bill Simmons YouTube channel for all the clips and videos from this and new Rewatchables episode Close Encounters of the Third Kind. You can check that out as well because that's on The Ringer Moves YouTube channel or on the Spotify as a video podcast or wherever you at your podcast. So I'm going to be back on and Thursday we'll have lots to discuss, including a surprise guest, so stay tuned. Must be 21 plus and President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + in President D.C. gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE or text Hopeny in New York. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. What do I look forward to every NBA playoff season? Well, I'm always hoping the Celtics do well. I'm always hoping. We have great storylines, great games, great matchups, great game Sevens. I just hope for good basketball. But the NBA playoffs are even better with Michelob Ultra, the official beer partner of the NBA. Plus, they're getting fans closer to the game with a chance to win courtside tickets and more. Enter now michelobocher.com Courtside Michelob Ultra Superior Access Courtside 2024-25 Sweepstakes no purchase necessary. Open to US residents 21 or older. Ends on July 1, 2025. Multiple entry periods. Visit michelobulture.com SuperiorAccess Courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and official rules. Message and data rates may apply. Void where prohibited. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. Every basketball team that's still alive in the playoffs has one thing in common. Their key trades and signings throughout the season paid off, giving each team the talent needed to make a run at the championship. With a small business, your success directly depends on the new talent you add to your team. And a great place to find that talent is LinkedIn. They know hiring is a big deal for small businesses, not only because small businesses are wearing so many hats, but also because every hire is crucial for a growing company. That's why LinkedIn pairs you with the best candidates, using data you won't find anywhere else. From unique skills and interests to the connections you have in common, LinkedIn also lets you go beyond candidates who are actively applying in a given week. 171 million LinkedIn members aren't actively seeking jobs, but they are open to new opportunities. That's a big pool to miss out on. So find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com Simmons that's LinkedIn.com Simmons to post your job for free, terms and conditions apply.