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The Bill Simmons Podcast
The Jalen Williams Game, Haliburton’s Injury, OKC Vs. MJ’s Bulls, and Giannis’s Future With Doc Rivers
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- [00:00]
Bill Simmons
This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra, the official beer partner of the NBA. What do I love about the NBA championship? Well, first of all, I love when the Celtics win. But that's not happening this year. But you know what I really love? The drama, the pressure. Everything goes to the highest level. Guys are injured, guys are banged up, guys are hungry. It just brings out the best of everything. And Michelob Ultra is helping you celebrate like a champion with a chance to win your own limited edition championship bottle, just like those gifted to the NBA players during the championship parade. Enter now at michelobaltra.com Courtside Champs bottles Michelob Ultra Courtside Victor Solomon Champs Bottle Sweepstakes. No purchase necessary. Open to US residents 21/ends June 22, 2025. See Official Rules@michelobucher.com Rules for free entry, prizes and details. Message and data rates may apply. Void where prohibited. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where I have new rewatchables coming for you. Not Monday night, Tuesday night. It's New York City Month. We're doing Marathon Man, Dustin Hoffman, Sir Lawrence Olivier, the William Goldman book that turned into a movie directed by John Schlesinger. It's part of New York City Month. It's a really good one. Me and Chris Ryan, we recorded it today, had a great time and that will be running on Tuesday night this week because we are running a very special Monday night podcast coming off game five Pacers OKC. You saw what happened. OKC won the game. They took a 32 lead in the series. And our old friend Doc Rivers is going to be joining us to break down everything that he saw. And we'll ask him some other NBA questions too. We haven't talked to him since. You just coached another year with the Bucks. That is all coming up next. We're going to take a break and then we're going to get to Pearl Jam. I'm not going to talk about the Red Sox today, maybe midweek or Thursday. The the the Devers trade controversial dumped money that they probably should have dumped. And yet because it's the Red Sox cause of what's happened the last seven years, the Red Sox fans are pissed. Anyway, lot to cover. I'll probably have to bring in a guest for that one. But anyway, coming up, Doc Rivers. First a break, then Pearl June. This episode is presented by State Farm. It's no secret that great teams need great teammates. I've been saying this for years. And when it comes to insurance, State Farm is there to help you find the right coverage for your home car and more. Whether you need an in person or digital assistance, they're ready. When Life hits you with a full court press, get a game plan that helps fit your life. Talk to State Farm today. State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. All right, we're recording. 8:30 Pacific Time. Doc Rivers is here. He's. It's been a while for us. We just watched game five of the 2025 finals. You're. You're in Florida, I'm in California. I guess that's the Jalen Williams game. There might be many more games for him.
- [03:40]
Doc Rivers
Yeah, that's the Jalen Williams game. Yeah. And the Shea game. And I really think it was more the Oklahoma bench game. You know, it's amazing, Bill. I don't know how often this happens, but the role players play better at home. And, you know, obviously, you know, so did the Pacers role players on the road. They all play well as well. And, and obviously Halliburton, I think he's injured. Didn't have a lot tonight, but at the end of the day, Jalen Shay and the role players were the difference in the game.
- [04:12]
Bill Simmons
So Jalen Williams, over the course of the playoffs, where you think he's gotta be at least the Pippin, right? Not to compare anyone to Michael Jordan, but he's gotta be the Robin, the Pippin, that side, it's like, is this a year too early for him? Is this Scottie Pippen in 1990 or is he actually ready for this? And the way he's played the last three nights, especially tonight, this felt like Pippin in 91, when they just blew the doors outta anybody and he's guarding Magic and he just went up and it was like, oh, shit. This guy's like one of the best 12, 13 guys in the league. Now. The stuff he was doing off the dribble, how comfortable he was, going left hand, going right hand. I don't know what the ceiling is anymore for him. Document.
- [04:57]
Doc Rivers
You know, what's interesting is a couple things. Number one, last year he really struggled. Everyone forced him, right? That was the scouting port that every team have. If you can force him, right, he struggles. He went back to the lab, worked on it all summer. There's nothing better from a coach standpoint. When you see a player come back the next NBA season and has worked on all the things that he needed to work on and he went back. I mean, I can't imagine the hours that he put in. But then I thought he was struggling a tad bit at the beginning of this series. And, Bill, this is where, you know, the difference makes, like, some guys kind of wilt under that pressure back to back years, and it's almost like he has willed himself. Like, no, I'm that guy. I've arrived and I'm going to prove it, and I'm not going to be denied. That's how he's playing. This is as physical and as tough as I've ever seen him play. And he's playing magnificently.
- [05:58]
Bill Simmons
I went to the two Indiana games, and I thought, especially in the second half of game four, he really took it to Siakam, and he took it to him physically and just athletically, everything but really physically. That's the big difference I've noticed just in seeing him in person over the course of the last couple years, is he's starting to use his body in a different way, combined with the speed. And now guys are playing off him because they know they're going to lose the bounce off stuff. But I remember. Not to bring Giannis into this so early, but I remember when Giannis started to figure that out the first couple years of his career where he had the athleticism, but as he got stronger, he figured out how to use his body and bounce off dudes. And it feels like that's happening for Williams. You've gone against him. You went against him in the Cup. By the way, congrats on the Commissioner's Cup. We haven't had you on the pod since you won the commercial.
- [06:48]
Doc Rivers
We haven't talked since then. My gosh. Well, thank you. Forever ago.
- [06:53]
Bill Simmons
Did you bring the trophy to Florida or. Where'd you keep it? In your house?
- [06:58]
Doc Rivers
I kept it in Milwaukee, right where it should belong. Well, thank you. And I will say our thoughts going into that game, and we got away with it. Our size kind of ate them up like we were. We're the more physical team. You can see that. We knew we had to make it a physical contest. We knew going into that game, if we made it about athleticism and speed, then we had no chance, but if we made it about size and power, that they had no chance. And that's why we won that game. What I'm impressed with, with Williams and Shea, I don't think we talk enough about Shea, is not only do they play through the physical contact now, but they get their balance back. See, a lot of people can take a hit. Most people can't get back on balance and take a shot. That Little turnaround, that little shimmy turnaround that he shot towards, I think it was the end of the third or the beginning of the fourth. He didn't have that game, he didn't have that mid season. And now he's still adding as the playoffs is going on. So it's pretty impressive.
- [08:02]
Bill Simmons
So do you think they learned anything from that Commissioner's cup game, as weird as that question is? Because I remember we were talking about that during the holidays and you were like, yeah, we were able to overpower them. I'm not sure anyone's overpowering this version of the Thunder, right?
- [08:16]
Doc Rivers
No. And I do think, you know, it's funny when Mark said after that game, this is something, this is a lesson that we'll put into our bag and that we've learned that there's another brand of physicality that we're going to have to come up with. And I thought, you know, I don't know if that game mattered. It did matter, but I don't know if that game taught him anything. But I do know that they put that in and said, we cannot let a team just play bully ball against us. And that's what we. We virtually did.
- [08:43]
Bill Simmons
So what did you see from tonight? You know, Indiana dominates okc. Well, they didn't dominate, but the first three quarters of game four, they're in control of the game. It feels like they have it. They're up 10 for like three minutes near the end of the third quarter and they can't kind of put the game away. OKC can't hit a three, you know, and then OKC brings the game back with their defense. What was different about tonight?
- [09:08]
Doc Rivers
Well, first the game the other night, I thought that was the first time Indiana looked up and started thinking results for a second, you know, and it happens in the finals. Man, you look at that scoreboard and you're thinking, man, we win this game, we went away. I thought Indiana played differently in the fourth quarter. I thought they blew it to in the third. I think I text you and said, wow, this game should be a 10 to 12 point game. And it's now six or four or whatever it was. And that allowed Oklahoma back in it. And, you know, as good as Indiana is down the stretch, Oklahoma is pretty good because they have Shea and that was Shay's game. To me, the other night, tonight was Jalen's game. Today was a different pace. What they do, Bill, they don't stop, you know, they just keep coming. They keep coming, they keep playing, they keep playing. And then eventually you wear down. I thought there were points in the game tonight that Oklahoma was close to going to the other way. You know, Indiana would turn the ball over. Some of them would take a bad shot, which Indiana did more tonight than I've seen all year. And then Jalen Williams just took the game over. So that's the difference.
- [10:19]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I had written down. So it was. They got it to two the first part of the fourth quarter with that incredible the. T.J. mcConnell brings him back in the third quarter. He has 15. He's doing every. He's playing that. It's like T.J. mcConnell, greatest hits. Basically, they got it to two. OKC misses big. Offensive rebound swings out to Jalen Williams. He hits a three, then turnover. They get a fast break, Wallace layup. All of a sudden it's seven again. So there was a split second where it felt like, oh my God, Indiana's gonna do the thing they did for the first three rounds. And then it just flipped almost immediately. I mean, the offensive rebounds in this game, at one point there was 32 combined. I'm just seeing what they. What we ended with. We ended with.
- [11:03]
Doc Rivers
You know what it was though.
- [11:05]
Bill Simmons
There were 37 offensive rebounds, Doc, for 37 in the game for both sides.
- [11:11]
Doc Rivers
But none of them were at the rim, it felt like, because there were a lot of long threes, there were a lot of long rebounds, and there was a stretch where Indiana was getting off of. I thought Mathury did a great job on the glass just collecting them. They're just scrappy. But then I thought Hardenstein got a huge one. You know, both teams are really working the glass because what's going on in this. It seems like there's a stretch in every game where one team goes small and the other team is bigger and the bigger team dominates the glass. And that happened again tonight.
- [11:48]
Bill Simmons
So we watched game one of Celtics Knicks together and you were calling out all the hunting that was going on on both sides, Right. And you know, that was pretty early in a series for two teams to try to figure out what they wanted to do offensively. As this series went along, we had game four where they try to do the. With SGA setting screens for Jalen Williams, them trying to do that two man game. That was the only way to unlock how bad their three point shooting was. What did you. What did they figure out tonight? Cause it seemed like a lot of it was Jalen Williams just going downhill. And Shea, they scored most of the points. And then Wallace and Wiggins, I think they had like six threes. Between them. That's it. But did you see anything else they figured out?
- [12:29]
Doc Rivers
Yeah, I thought dribble penetration. I thought Oklahoma made a concerted effort, especially early in the game, to get to the paint. And they got to the paint and made plays, not necessarily shooting the ball. Shay had a better assist night that didn't take but one, but he had more assists tonight. And I thought they set the tone early with their dribble penetration. And those guys made shots. Right. And then down the stretch, because the other guys were making shots, it felt like Indiana, they didn't leave guys as easy as they've been leaving guys. They were worried about Oklahoma making threes tonight, and that allowed Jalen Williams and Shay to get to the elbows and make shots, you know, and that was the difference, I thought, the dribble penetration. They clearly came into this game thinking, let's get to the paint.
- [13:14]
Bill Simmons
So they had a 40:32 lead with eight minutes left in the second quarter. 40 points for OKC. They had 12 assists. They had 10 on game four. So you're right. It was like they made a concerted effort. The ball's got to move far when they move the ball. And that just opens up. Yeah, that's.
- [13:32]
Doc Rivers
That's.
- [13:32]
Bill Simmons
That's what falls apart on the road.
- [13:34]
Doc Rivers
I think we keep going back to game four. I kept thinking in game four, we. A very important stat for coaches is shot quality. Like, your shot quality. Like, you know, you can. You can win a game and have poor shot quality because you've had shot makers. And Oklahoma wins a lot of games because Shea and Jalen Williams are able to make tough shots. But when you watch that game four, every shot Indiana took was wide open, and they got it from ball moving to making the next shot. And every shot Oklahoma took was contested and tough. And that's how Indiana got that big lead. And then in the fourth quarter, it flipped, and then it carried back over to tonight. Oklahoma was making plays for each other. They were making the extra pass. Indiana always plays that way, so they still got theirs. The difference is Oklahoma's shot quality tonight was really good. And it's because they made extra passes.
- [14:29]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. So game. The second half of game four was just about as good defensively as I've ever seen anyone play in person. It was crazy. And it got to the point where it just felt like over and over again. With seven seconds left on the shot clock, Indiana was 30ft from the basket trying to figure out, okay, now I guess I gotta get a shot up. They carried that over into the first half I felt like okc.
- [14:55]
Doc Rivers
They really did. And Bill, the biggest difference is that Oklahoma has a guy they can play low shot clock games because they have two guys really with Jalen Williams and Shay. In the end, that's the one thing that they really don't have. They have a lot of guys that make plays, but they don't have the one guy maybe Siakam, because if you get the ball to Siakam on the elbow in the right place, he's pretty dynamic. Right. But, but other than that, they don't, that's not how they play. They don't play the ISO into the clock game and Oklahoma can do that. And so that's been the difference since, you know, mid second half of game four so far. And it, and it showed itself today. Again.
- [15:39]
Bill Simmons
Well, so when you hear, okay, say I don't know if they're the best defense I've ever seen, but they, they'd be one of the first ones I, I think of.
- [15:47]
Doc Rivers
Well, I, I faced the Bulls.
- [15:50]
Bill Simmons
Well, that's the thing. So I, I, I saw the nine, I saw the 90s bulls. The, you're talking about 04 pistons. There's, there's been some great ones over the years.
- [15:59]
Doc Rivers
Were, were, were physical, you know, so they, they had a brand. Our 2008 Celtics were tough, but I still listen, I, I played against all of them. And that one year with the Bulls, you know, Ron Harper, Scottie Pippen.
- [16:17]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [16:18]
Doc Rivers
Dennis Rodman, Michael Jordan. I mean those are four elite, elite, elite defenders. I don't think there was a better defensive team than that with their size and quickness. But this team is similar. They, they rival it a little bit and they're, they're, they come in droves like the Bulls when you, you could stop at four or five. They, they're seven, eight deep defensively. You don't hear that very often. When you talk about teams, usually the great defensive teams, they have a one or two guys that are great defensively then everybody else are more team defenders. What separates Oklahoma and you can put Indiana, who's very underrated defensively, they have a ton of solid individual defensive players and that's what makes this series so intriguing.
- [17:08]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the 90s bulls because it's the only other time I've ever seen that in person of people multiple guys picking up ball handers at mid court and it almost seeming like defensive backs like jamming the line of scrimmage on receivers and the receivers being unable to get off the line. Of scrimmage, like what they were doing to Halliburton. And today he was hurt, which we'll talk about in a second, but he wasn't. Not only was he not getting the spots he wanted to go to, they were disrupting him 45ft from the basket, which is what those Bulls teams used to do. They used to be like two pit bulls waiting for people at mid court.
- [17:46]
Doc Rivers
One of the things the Bulls did that I don't think any other team has ever done in the history, history of the game, is the way they trap. You know, usually what you do is you send a guy to the sideline and then you bring them back to the middle and you trap. The Bulls actually would send a guy to the sideline, and as a guard, and I remember this, you thought, okay, now I can beat him down the sideline, but the guy guardian would actually beat you to the sideline, and then you would turn back and there's another defender, and you're basically in the web. It's over. No one's ever been able to do that type of trapping in the front court. They did it in the backcourt. They did it all the time. And I thought they did one other thing that no one ever talks about. We actually discussed it once. They would trap the passer that was going to throw it to the post. If you remember that against Orlando, they figured out, okay, they're going to always throw it to the wing to throw it to Shaq. So what they did, they trapped the passer, and the passer now is throwing it out away. He forgets about Shaq. By the time they got it to Shaq, it's three seconds on the clock. I thought that was genius. I mean, that was Phil. But that was really. They had four pit bulls that could get away with it. And I've never seen a team do that. I will say Oklahoma, they don't do that, but they have enough defenders that they may be able to get away with something with like that.
- [19:14]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I would say the difference between them and the Bulls, defensively, the Bulls probably had the higher ceiling with those four, but there's a relentlessness because they just bring more guys in. It's like, yeah, this guy's in really, and kind of never stops.
- [19:29]
Doc Rivers
Caruso. Can you imagine? You're already struggling trying to score, and then they bring Caruso in. You know, that is unbelievable when you think about it.
- [19:39]
Bill Simmons
So as a coach, because you're. You're coaching the Milwaukee Bucks right now, and you're in this league that has Oklahoma City in it that I don't even feel like is the team they're going to be two, three years from now. Right? This is. They're at like the start of whatever journey it is. I don't know if it's going to be two years, five years, seven years, but it's the beginning of it. When you see that they're already at this point now. How many teams can you remember since you've been playing or coaching where you're going, oh, shit, not only are they the best team right now, but we're not even where we're going to go yet.
- [20:15]
Doc Rivers
Well, listen, we both been around this league a long time and you're right today, but you know, this league, I still remember Jeff, Ben Gundy, Mark Jackson and Mike Breen talking about the Oklahoma City Thunder and when they are losing to Miami, well, this is a tough loss, but they'll be back here over and over again. This is the first time they've been back, so you can never take it for granted. And they also have some things coming up called max contracts and paying guys. And you know, what Sam has done is amazing when you think about it. He's done this without, you know, shade really. But next year, after this season or in a year, they're going to have to start paying guys. And then all of a sudden they probably won't be as deep as they are now because they're going to have to make some tough decisions. They've done this once and they decided on. Who did they decide on? Over Harden. I can't remember the center that ended up.
- [21:19]
Bill Simmons
It was Harden. And they kept a Bacca and Perkins, basically.
- [21:22]
Doc Rivers
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they kept IBACA at the time over Harden, which turned out to be, you know, not the best decision in the world. And I think, honestly I thought they felt like Harden wanted to go somewhere and have his own team. So, you know, they were making the decisions more about team building than just about individual talent. So it looks a lot worse than what it actually is. But that's the only thing that's going to slow this team down. And like, you know, I'm a coach in the NBA. I want to win a title, right? You know, the earliest. If Oklahoma City wins this one, then they've been made. You know, I always use that word, you've been made. And now you're going to have to deal with them. Nothing once you win, nothing can shake your confidence. The only way you knock them out now is you're going to have to kill them. So this series isn't over, but we do know. And that's going to happen with either team that wins it, but especially Oklahoma, because they're so young.
- [22:24]
Bill Simmons
We're going to take a quick break. Come back. Talk about halberd. This episode is brought to you by Vrbo Private Vacation Rentals. Vrbo. You can save over 200 on select homes when you stay for a week or more. Say, if you wanted to go catch a couple baseball games in Boston, take some time off work, flying to Beantown, watch the Sox play. After that, you can do anything. You can go book a VRBO in Cape Cod for a week. The world is your oyster or your lobster roll or clam chowder. Really. It has shells, gills, and it's indigenous to the Atlantic. It's your edible metaphor of choice. They're crustacean. Crazy around there. Guess what? Since you stayed longer than a week, you saved over $200. You know what that means? More shellfish. I love shellfish. Hope you're not allergic. Next vacation, stay longer and save. Make it a verba. Halliburton was clearly hurt. I don't know when it happened. Um, and we live in this culture, especially when there's time between games when whoever didn't play well in the previous finals game, that. That's a person that just takes all the shit for the next 36 hours. He didn't look right. It's interesting watching this in a 20, 25 context because we've seen some awesome players now have calf strains, try to play through them, and then something more horrible happens, right? Durant was the most famous example. Tatum in. In the Knicks series. I don't think his legs were a hundred percent before that happened. So in the back of your head, you're watching this, and on the one hand, especially your generation, it's like, you're hurt. Get out there, keep playing. You got to help the team. But that has become the scariest injury. I feel like in sports now, when somebody has calf strain and they're stretching it out and I'm just like, yo, be careful. He didn't look the same. I don't know when the injury was, but can Indiana beat them with a compromised halberd? I would say no way.
- [24:09]
Doc Rivers
They can't beat him without Halliburton being solid. The one thing I will say is Halliburton is never going to be that guy that gives you 30. It's just not in his DNA. He can at times, but what Halliburton does is so underrated to me, Bill, because He plays the right way. There was in game three, I think it was game three, whichever game, Game four, the game they won. So game three, Game three, Halliburton had made back to back threes, I think, and the ball swung to him, and 90% of the league would have taken the shot. He checked. He checked and he pumped, faked, drove to the basket, and he got, say, Alkama wide open shot. And that's who he is. You know, he wants to make plays. That's why Indiana plays. Right. Because their best player always plays. Right. The problem with that is now you're in the finals and. And there's a microscope on you to score. That's not what he is. You know, he can score and there's going to be games that he has, big games, but what he can do is run a basketball team. And that's why Indiana is where they're at, is because the way Halliburton plays.
- [25:23]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. I've been saying that on my podcast for the whole finals, that when people are like, he's got to step up. They need him to score more, I'm just like, that's just a fundamental misunderstanding of who he is. We, Steve Nash, you coach Chris Paul. Chris Paul didn't want to score 35 points in a finals game. He wanted to have 20 and 12 or 18 and 14. That's who he is. If Chris Paul was taking 20 to 25 shots in a game, odds are it was going badly for you, right?
- [25:51]
Doc Rivers
Yeah. Even Magic, you know?
- [25:53]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [25:53]
Doc Rivers
Magic Johnson. I mean, Magic could score. And when. When, you know, the difference was when he wanted to score, he could just score. Know he's just bigger than everybody. But at the end of the day. Yeah, at the end of the day, you know, the game. Game 6, Philadelphia, his rookie year, he proved, yeah, I can score when I need to. But what he wanted to do is, is. Is make everybody on his team better. And he did that, and that's why they won.
- [26:17]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. So I don't know, when people criticize him for the scoring, I'm like, all right. But. But he. I don't think he had the same explosiveness. And, you know, this is one of the things I wanted.
- [26:28]
Doc Rivers
I don't think he's had it for two games. I don't think this injury happened tonight.
- [26:32]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [26:33]
Doc Rivers
I think this has been going on for at least two games now.
- [26:37]
Bill Simmons
Well, this is one of the things I wanted to ask you because you played in the 80s and 90s, and obviously there's more. There's definitely more. Running the defense is a little fiercer now. You got more ground to cover. And some of these games, like I was just in disbelief in game three and four, just being there, how hard everyone plays for two and a half hours and how fast everyone's going. And is, is basketball becoming unsustainable at the speed we're playing it? Are we, are we actually putting too much on these dudes? Because when you watch it, it's like I don't understand how they're, how these guys are upright after two hours when you're watching it just as a no.
- [27:18]
Doc Rivers
But you do remember in the 70s, every team shot 100 shots. Both teams always got 100 field goals a night. Now there was no three point line and people took shots quicker so the game was at a faster pace. And then when the three point line came in, shooting percentages plummeted, scoring plummeted and now it's kind of caught back up. It's the 70s with a three point line. That's basically what has happened now.
- [27:44]
Bill Simmons
But do you feel like it's as physical as the seventies though?
- [27:48]
Doc Rivers
No, but I do think one thing, I love what the league did mid season last year. Physicality is back. It's not what it was because I do think, and that's just hard for me to say, there was a line that was crossed at some point where the game got so physical it became ugly. But I love how they are officiating the games. I get so upset when there's a tacky foul that they don't, that they call. Like the two flagrants in the game four or game three were ridiculous. You know, I didn't like either one of them, but other than that. So the game is more physical, not like the 70s. The pace is faster, the athletes are bigger and faster. And yeah, Bill, you can make a case. Can every team sustain the speed and the pace that the Pacers in Oklahoma are playing at? I guess the other argument to that is yes, because Oklahoma's done it and they're healthy. Indiana has done it. Now Indiana had a ton of injuries all year, but they're healthy. They're one of the healthier teams in the NBA right now. These two teams that are playing and probably because to me they did play at this pace all year, you know, they, they didn't decondition when the season starts. And I think that happens a lot in our league because we start wrestling. I think a lot of guys decondition when the season starting and they're not ramped up right one of the things a lot of teams are going to now, we're starting to ramp up for the playoffs. That's what we should have been doing for. For the last six or seven years. And we got away from that. And I think it's important.
- [29:27]
Bill Simmons
You know, when you came back to coaching last year and you broke my heart and you left the podcast, you. One of the things you were telling me was. One of the things you told me was this Indiana is no joke. Like, the way they pressure the ball, the pace that they play with. I'm kind of shocked, like, how effective it is. Especially like how they go 94ft against the other team's guards. And you were like, I don't think people realize how hard it is to play them. And then, of course, they made the Eastern finals last year, but it seemed like you were. They were on your radar basically the whole time. You're the Bucks go. And then of course, you play them in the playoffs. You don't have Dame.
- [30:09]
Doc Rivers
Yeah, yeah. But honestly, Bill, we played them the one time and I came away from that game. It's funny, I called Cassell, who I talked to still probably way too much, and I said, sammy, you guys don't want to see Indiana. They will wear you out. And even if you win the series, you may not have anything left to beat the next team. That's just how they play. And one thing we could do to eliminate it a little bit this year playoffs, is we have Giannis, and nobody is going to pressure Giannis or pick him up. So we had kind of a free pass against him this year. Last year we didn't have Giannis and now, you know, Dame and the guards, they were worn out. Now, Dame didn't play but two games, but they wore our guards down. And you saw them do it against New York, you saw them do it again this year. And Jalen Brunson looked exhausted at the end of that series this year. And that's. You look at Shea times now, you know there's points in the game. They've already had to change their substitution pattern. Oklahoma has. So they can have shave fresh at the end of games. That's all from that constant pressure. And they're relentless with it. They don't let up ever. And it's rough.
- [31:27]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I noticed that game four, there was a moment in that game where SGA looked like kind of like spent and he was able to get the second wind and come back in the fourth quarter. But that was the. That was the only time I really thought Indiana Was had a chance to actually win the title during that third quarter. It was mostly because of how Shay just looked like a boxer who was like, oh, shit, I got three rounds left. He just had that vibe to him. But he figured it out.
- [31:53]
Doc Rivers
It's funny you said that. I'm watching a game with Austin and Seth, and Austin looked at Seth and said, oh, my God, Indiana's about to win the world championship. And that's how you felt in the middle of that third quarter. And then Oklahoma took that away. You got to give Mark a lot of credit, though, because Mark does not change his rotations very often, and he did in that game. And he rested Shay, if you remember, the beginning of the fourth, and then took him out one more time. And I thought that was huge for Shea and Oklahoma to win that game was that little bit of rest.
- [32:31]
Bill Simmons
Did you think Indiana was this good or did they go up a level as this round, as these four rounds went along, did they kind of push their ceiling up a couple floors?
- [32:42]
Doc Rivers
I've always said this, Bill, and the only people that can understand this is people who have gone all the way to the finals. If you look, if you ask every coach that has ever been in the finals about their team at the finals and when they started the playoffs, they will tell you, we were a different team by the time we got to the finals. You grow so much. You grow each round. You find things about your team as a coach. The players find things about themselves. Each round, teams get closer and closer. I always say the first round, every player is still trying to show everybody they can play. They're still worried about half the teams that aren't the main teams that worried about contract and all the BS they shouldn't be worried about. Then they win that round and all of a sudden teams get a little closer. Then they get through that round and they get to the Eastern and Western finals, you are a completely different team. And then when you win that round, you go to a level where there's no more I. You never hear about selfish. How often do you hear about selfish play in the finals? You just don't see it very often. And I really believe each team grows. Indiana was good. They were playing great coming into the playoffs. They beat us, they beat Cleveland, and they jumped on Cleveland. They beat the Knicks. And if you ask Rick Carlisle right now, he would tell you, I believed in this team. But we're way better now than we were in the first round. And that's what happens. You keep growing. That's why when you Have a team even like us. You know, Dame, I just kept looking at our team and I think a lot of coaches believe and I know that because I've been there twice to the finals. I'm looking at our team and I'm looking at like Gary Trent and AJ Green and all those guys and I'm like, man, each round if we can get, these guys are just going to keep getting better and better and better and then what happens? They bring that back next year. You bring all the ATOs back next year. You don't have to waste half your training camp. Put in new stuff. You've already done it throughout the playoffs and you jump and you, it gives you a head start. Right. And that's where Indiana's at and that's where Oklahoma's at now.
- [34:58]
Bill Simmons
And that's where some of the teams that didn't make it there was some hump that they didn't get over. Yeah. You weren't surprised by the Indiana Cleveland series. And part of it was Garland was hurt. But you thought, you just thought that was a scary matchup for Cleveland. But even you couldn't have thought Indiana was going to do that though.
- [35:19]
Doc Rivers
No, I, I, I did. I said it out loud that Indiana was going to win that series because I thought their guard pressure, they're one of the few teams that can match up to the Cleveland guards. But then, you know, Cleveland had major injuries coming into that. When they set guys in game one and two, I said this series is over. You know, the one thing you can have in the playoffs, your key guys can't be hurt. You have to be healthy to win. You're not, you're not winning anything. Injured in the NBA playoffs.
- [35:47]
Bill Simmons
You mean like when you didn't have Kevin Garnett in 2009 and when Perkins got hurt with two games left? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [35:55]
Doc Rivers
It's hard to win. Let me put it that way.
- [35:58]
Bill Simmons
I vaguely remember that this whole superstar, you know, like this 247 sports discourse and we talk about superstars and like, I think Hal Burton's a superstar, but he doesn't have the stats that show he's a superstar. But you made the key point earlier that you can build a team around what he does, right?
- [36:19]
Doc Rivers
Yeah.
- [36:20]
Bill Simmons
Isn't that the definition of a superstar or am I crazy?
- [36:23]
Doc Rivers
Well, I don't know what a superstar is anymore. That would be my definition. Anybody that can make their team a championship level team should be considered a superstar. You know, I use this and I've said this a million times, I'm sure I've said it on the pod before. One of the most meaningful things that have ever been told to me is by Bill Russell. When I brought him in to talk to the team and then he went back in the office, he was talking, I think it was to me and Kevin. And he said, if I'm the only one that can be great, our team can never be great. But if I can be great and give everybody on my team room to be great as well, we will be a dominant team. And that's what I did. That's to me, there's a lot of guys, you know, you can make the case. There's a lot of guys. If you just told them to shoot every time pass when they wanted to, they're going to have all the stats, but they're the only ones that can be good on their team. And that has never worked in the history of the game. That has never worked. You have to give yourself to the team at some point to win. And Halliburton has done that. And when your best player does it, Bill, it's easy to coach. Everybody else falls in line because you can't say he won't do it because he will do it. And it makes it easier for coaches for sure.
- [37:50]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I heard, I was driving home today. I was listening to Justin and Eddie on Serious NBA. They had Isaiah Hartenstein on and they were asking him about, hey, your role was this way the first couple rounds in the finals. They haven't been using you as much. And like, like what is it like to just have your role change like that in the biggest series of the season? And he's like, hey, we're just trying to win. And if I completely trust my coach at this point and if he feels like we have better matchups than me, then I want our team to win. And that's it. That's the end of the discussion.
- [38:22]
Doc Rivers
That's who he is. Yeah, that's who he is anyway. But it definitely, I think, you know, I always look back when Rick said, I can't think of the kid's name when he was in Dallas, but he did it in the finals. He set someone that in. In the history. He had not been a very easy guy to coach, but they had made the finals now and the guy just sat there is the happiest guy, hey, I'm trying to win now. And that's what I'm talking about, about growth. It's funny though, I will say this, and I know we're kind of segueing off When I bring this up, it also reminded me when you said they asked Hardenstein, that is, I've had this thing, and I'm going to bring up Tom Thibodeau that I think no team should ever do. When you lose, like in the first or second or third round to have exit meetings the next day after you lose. Because what happens is the Hardenstein conversation comes up, you know, with your front office guys. The problem is you just lost in the second round. They're not as happy. Yeah. You know what I mean? And then when they say, you know, tell me about the coach. Well, there's going to be about four or five guys that really love you because you showed them love and you played them more. But there's going to be four or five guys who were on your side that may no longer be on your side when those meetings happen. And I've long said exit meetings need a month before we have them, because when you have them, the next day, the coach is in trouble.
- [39:58]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [39:59]
Doc Rivers
And, you know, I will say, Tibbs and I did talk after. After he was fired, and that absolutely came up like it couldn't have been anything good that came out of those meetings. And so it's interesting. We're talking about Hardenstein now in the Finals, Coach can do anything. You remember in 210, I think we're in the Eastern finals. I think I played Nate and Baby to finish the game, and I didn't bring Kevin and those guys back in. We won the game and no one cared because we were trying to win. But when it happens earlier and you lose, guys don't handle that as well as they do when you get to the Finals.
- [40:38]
Bill Simmons
So you're saying maybe the Knicks shouldn't have fired Tom Thibodeau after he made the Final Four?
- [40:45]
Doc Rivers
Obviously, you know, he only worked for me for a long time. So that one that. You know, it's funny, it stings you just as much. Not as much as it stung Tibbs. But, you know, firing is hard. I've been fired three times, and, you know, and when it happens, you know, especially when it happens to one of your guys, you know, my guys are Tibbs, Tyloo. When it happens to guys like that, it really bothers you because you know what they are. You know, both of them are just unbelievable coaches. And I always use the Utah model. The reason Utah stayed good for so long, they never panicked. They didn't fire Jerry Sloan because he couldn't get to the Finals. They knew he could coach. There's certain franchises Boston really, for the most part, the Celtics, they don't make changes once they think they have the right coach, a good coach, they're, they're right because they know they can scout better, they can draft better, they can make trades better because they know exactly what they're looking for. And, you know, I thought the Knicks were on their way to that. And now Tibbs is gone.
- [41:46]
Bill Simmons
Well, you, I mean, you're one of the leaders of the coaching contingent. It's a league now that, I think the five longest tenured coaches, three of them got the job in 2020. Right. And then you have Spo and you have Steve Kerr, the other two. And at this point, you're probably in the top 10 longest tenured coaches. I think you, you got there a.
- [42:06]
Doc Rivers
Year and a half ago. Somebody told me I was 12, someone told me I was 12, which when you think about it, that's insane. That's nuts.
- [42:15]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. But here's the question, because you know that, you know it's only going to get worse. The salaries are going to go up, right? We're going to have this, this whatever happens, as the media rights money keeps coming in, and we're going to have guys making 60, 65, 70 million a year. If they don't like their coach, who's going to win that one? It's not going to be the coach.
- [42:42]
Doc Rivers
It always should be the coach. You know, I tell coaches that, you know, when I speak and I'm speaking at a coaching clinic in Vegas, I'm the first one to tell them, like, listen, our job is to win, period. Our job is to make players better. But at the end of the day, even if you do that, you still going to get fired sometimes. And it's just part of it. I mean, I could, I could look at the Philadelphia situation and say, we lost to the Boston Celtics. No one picked us to win. We took them to seven game two years before I got there. They got swept, and now we're trying to win Eastern finals. But at the end of the day, you're not going to treat players away if it comes down to that. It's always going to be the coach. And that's just the way it is. And I tell them, like, even Tibbs, Tibbs is a big boy. He got it. It's not like you're going to hear him gripe about it or anything like that. It's not fair. But it's part of our job. And we have to understand that. That's the tough part of the NBA.
- [43:45]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. And it might be a five year job at this point and if you last longer than four to five years, it's. It's a borderline miracle. We gotta take one more break and then I Wanna talk about SGA Quick. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. During the season, every baseball team plays 162 games. It's a true test of endurance. It's not enough to have a hot month or two. You need sustained dominance throughout. Well, the same is true for your small business. It's not enough to have a great Q2 or even a great year. You want year over year growth that starts with better hires that'll be there for the long haul. To find Those hires, use LinkedIn. LinkedIn has strong hiring data and insights that you won't find anywhere else to help pair you with the best candidates. From unique skills and interests to the connections you have in common. Based on LinkedIn data, 72% of small businesses say that LinkedIn helps them find high quality talent. LinkedIn also lets you go beyond people who are actively applying. In a given week, 171 million LinkedIn members aren't actively seeking jobs, but they are open to new opportunities. That's a big pool to miss out on. If you're not hiring with LinkedIn. Find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com Simmons that's LinkedIn.com Simmons to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by Visit Myrtle Beach. If you're dreaming of a beachy summer escape, then head to the beach In Myrtle Beach, S.C. you'll find 60 miles of stunning coastline, hundreds of attractions to explore, and the South's newest foodie hotspot. This is where you play hard and beach easy. You belong at the Beach. Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. Start planning your summer adventure at Visit MyrtleBeach.com this episode is brought to you by Viori. Look, I'm not a big let's hype up workout clothes guy, but Viori, I gotta say, total game changer. Been wearing a lot. If you see me power walking around Los Angeles, probably gonna see me wearing some Vuori Sunday performance joggers that they have. It's made with four way performance stretch fabric, one of the most comfortable things you own. You will wear them everywhere, I promise. All you have to do is go to viori.com Simmons and you get 20% off your first purchase with Viori. V-U-O-R-I.com Simmons enjoy free shipping on all US orders over $75 plus free returns. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. All right, so when you first started coming on this podcast a couple years ago, I remember we had a long conversation about sga. What did you see when, you know, when you coached him on the Clippers, when he was a young pup, they trade him. You make the point, hey, this, this guy's going to be really good. I wouldn't put him in the trade. They have to do it because it's their chance to get Kawhi and Paul George made them one of the favorites. They throw in a bunch of picks. And then when we Talked about this two years ago, this is when he was becoming a 30 point scorer. He was clearly a special player. He's going to be first team on ba but then this year it goes up a level. And now he is having one of the best start to finish guard seasons in the history of the position, you.
- [46:45]
Doc Rivers
Know, just for the game.
- [46:46]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, it's. And it's been steady, it's been consistent. The team really takes on his personality. It's really interesting to watch in person. Just their bench, it's all these quiet assassins. He's a quiet assassin even. He barely even talks to the refs. Just kind of does his job. He doesn't talk shit to the other players. He just goes, goes, goes. And technically, his footwork, his shots, like that shot you mentioned earlier when he. He just had McConnell, McConnell, McConnell. Then he has that little fall away on the foul line on him. He's one of the best scoring guards I've ever seen. Did you see this? Because I know you saw greatness in him, but not this.
- [47:28]
Doc Rivers
I loved him. Yeah, I loved him. I told you that. I told you that three years ago. But I mean, come on. I mean, no one saw this. I will say. And we talked about Sam Cassio earlier. Sam was really high on him and almost devastated when we were going to trade them. You know, I remember us talking that night because I had to make the call, you know, Bill, I guarantee you I know, I remember it. I know where I was at because when the trade finally went down, Lawrence calls me and tells me Shay's in the trade. You know, it's so funny, Bill. I was so happy that we got Kawhi and I was. It bothered me to make that call to Shay and I've. I've shared that that was a tough call and he handled it like such a pro. But you also felt that it was like this. I'm going to make you Pay for this trade. That's how you felt? I called Sam and Sam just talking to him as well, and Sam says, I tell you, we just gave away an assassin and it's we better win it because this kid, he's going to come back and haunt all of us. And you know, I'm so happy for him, Bill, because he reminds me a lot of Maxi. It's funny, as a coach, you have some of these young guys that are just sponges. He never. I coach Shay hard, I coach Maxi hard. And both of them could take it. They wanted more, they wanted to learn. They just both are very similar. You think they're these nice guys like Shay, as you said, he comes off as this nice guy. Shay's a stone blooded killer. He does not care about making you happy when you get on the floor. And he had that when he was a rookie. Now the way he's playing now, I don't think anyone saw that.
- [49:40]
Bill Simmons
The footwork and the consistency and how the ball never hits the rim on half of these shots, it's just, there's something eerie about it. I've never seen anything like it or his pace.
- [49:51]
Doc Rivers
You can't speed him up. You're not going to speed him up where he's gotten so much stronger. And to me, his ability, you know, he gets away with that push, but he also gets pushed. And what I'm surprised by, I think Nemhardt has done an amazing job and Nismith, both. Yet Shay's averaging 30, you know, you know what I mean? And they're doing an amazing job defending him. His balance is unbelievable. As good as any player I've ever seen at being able to take a hit, get his feet and be able to take a shot with rhythm. And he can do it left or right. But that was the one thing that stood out his rookie year was his pace. It was obvious, like, man, this guy has an NBA pace and he's never played an NBA game. It's innate, it's in him. What he didn't have was a size and physicality and now he has that as well.
- [50:53]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I'm trying to think of other guys like that because I've. We talked about this. I was going to those games that rookie year. I always thought he was going to be almost like more of a Nemar type, like a defense, glue guys filling the spot, good playmaker, but I never saw this guy.
- [51:08]
Doc Rivers
Yeah, footwork, guys. Michael had that, you know, Michael just did it so quick and so athletically. No one ever talked about his footwork. Michael's footwork was unbelievable. You know, how many times do you see him? He gets to his spot, he gets his balance. He just did it so quick and so fast that no one really where Shay does it slower and takes his time. You know, Paul Pierce is similar in a lot of ways with his footwork and his timing. Or you can go way back to like Kiki Vanderway's great footwork. Shay has all that. But Shay's the difference is what you said, his footwork and then the last thing that he's done, two years ago, you could force him to shoot threes. Now he's shooting that at a high clip as well. And so that's made him virtually unguardable.
- [51:57]
Bill Simmons
So what happens in game six, you think?
- [52:00]
Doc Rivers
Boy, I don't know. I really don't. I think the series may be over because I don't think Halliburton's health, that's.
- [52:07]
Bill Simmons
Where I've landed as well.
- [52:08]
Doc Rivers
Yeah. But if Halliburton can give them a game, you know, I don't know who's going to win this. You know what I really want? I really want a game seven. You know, I love NBA basketball. I love the coaching part of it, I love the playing part of it, but I love watching big games. I love watching game Sevens and I hope we have one. I think it'd be great. I think you would see two young teams and let's say this as well, you know, I guess Shay is a superstar, right? And Halliburton is one. Shay is starting to be a household name now, but this is the first series in a long time that we haven't had a series with just at least one or two household names. It's been great. It's been great to watch. It really has. I think this has been an absolutely fantastic series. I think has been coached great by both coaches, but I think you hit on it and it's what I think that why ratings are up and the fans are enjoying it. There's two teams that are playing hard. The intensity of these games have been off the chart and it's great to watch.
- [53:20]
Bill Simmons
I don't care about the ratings because I feel like this is a one for us Finals. Yeah, it's like for the, for the people who actually like basketball. It's not for like my mom, where my mom's like, I heard LeBron's in the Finals. I'll watch like all the casuals are out and this is just the hardcore. And by the way, like, this has been the league's biggest problem for the entire decade is trying to create new stars, new teams. They put the same guys on. You know, you could see it in Christmas. You guys didn't even make Christmas in December with Giannis, which is awful, right? Giannis is one of the people they should be pushing.
- [53:55]
Doc Rivers
Come on espn.
- [53:56]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, but, but I think, you know, they're, they're creating new teams and, and new stars, hopefully. I, I, did you hear what Magic said on first Take? I actually thought this was really smart. He was talking about they're the dumb face of the league conversation, which I, I, I hate. But he was saying, like, the true definition of a superstar is, can you sell out an opposing building? Are people going to come to see you? And I was like, you know what? I think that, I think that actually is the definition. Can you sell out the other team's building? How many guys have done that in the last 40 years? It's less than 10.
- [54:32]
Doc Rivers
It's not a lot. Yeah. I mean, let's say I didn't coach in the league and I was just loved the ball basketball the way I loved it. I'm going to watch Steph Curry play every day, every chance I get, he's going to do something extraordinary. He moves without the ball. One of my favorite stats in NBA history, in the history of the game, was Steph. The year Steph won the mvp, the year they won it, his first title, he had the ball in his hands 47% less than the year before.
- [55:05]
Bill Simmons
Wow.
- [55:06]
Doc Rivers
And that just to me is like, you know, I say this term, our players cringe when I say it. Like, well, we watch film. And I said, all right, guys, the first clip is coaches porn. I always call it coaches porn. And it usually is some beautiful play. And, you know, it's funny, like Giannis and a couple guys just love it. They'll say it now to the bench, make sure that's on the mural. That's coaches porn. Steph has it all the time, you know, so you can watch him play LeBron in his heyday, you know, just his passing. You would pay to watch him play Giannis. You would pay. You just would go, what is they, what are they going to do tonight? You know, but it's not a long list.
- [55:52]
Bill Simmons
You know, guys, Caitlin Clark has it right now. I feel like in WNBA you could feel she was out for two weeks and it felt like the league stopped.
- [55:59]
Doc Rivers
Listen, Caitlin Clark is Pistol Pete, right? She really is. I can watch her. You know, it's funny, in college, everyone was mesmerized by a shooting. I'm like, that's the least of her game. It's her passing. And it's a great example. What we talked about with Halliburton is when you watch Caitlin Clark's team play, they run the floor like there's no. You know why? Because they know they're going to get the ball. They make cuts because they know they're going to get the ball. It's amazing. And that's what a superstar does for a team right there. And, yeah, she is a. She is an absolute superstar. She may be the biggest superstar in basketball right now, or top three.
- [56:43]
Bill Simmons
At one point today, they ran two straight commercials with her. During one of the breaks in the. In the finals game tonight, I was like, she's arrived. You have a superstar on your team that you guys have been just trying to trade for the last month, apparently, by reports.
- [56:57]
Doc Rivers
Yeah. Yeah.
- [56:58]
Bill Simmons
You're just offering. Giannis is on ebay now. Does anyone make an offer?
- [57:05]
Doc Rivers
It's so ridiculous. And I've heard all these. You hear all this stuff and. But you do, don't. You don't like it, you know, when you hear it, because you know it's not true, Bill. And. But it's still like your players hear and everybody else hears it. You know, I remember telling you the story when I was in Boston. I'm on a treadmill working out. That's when I could run still, you know, running on a treadmill. And they announced that the Boston Celtics are about to trade Rondo. I think he was. To the Lakers or someone. And I was like, what? And it was absurd. Like we had never had any conversations, but Rondo heard it, you know, and so that's the only thing I don't like about all this now. It's. I don't know how many more times Giannis has to say he wants to be a buck and he wants to win a title with a buck. And it's so cool to me, you know, because it's not the way it's done anymore. But with a switch, certain guys, you know, I don't think Steph Curry would ever leave Golden State, ever. And I'm hoping, obviously, Giannis is the same way. That's the way he's been so far, and it's been great. It's been awesome.
- [58:16]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. I've been trying to tell people on the pod for the last month that, first of all, he doesn't want to leave. Second of all, you'd be crazy to trade him when the east is wide open. You have the best player in the conference. And it just feels like, especially after watching the playoffs this year, it's like, I'm pretty sure I'd want Giannis in the east next year would be. Would be my choice.
- [58:35]
Doc Rivers
I said this with. So I said this before the playoffs. I said, there's never been a better time that I can remember in the NBA that for you to win a title, meaning anyone, right?
- [58:48]
Bill Simmons
Like 10, 11 teams. If things broke the right way, maybe.
- [58:51]
Doc Rivers
If things break the right. There's no dominant team right now, Oklahoma, it may become that if they win. But there's nobody you're scared of in the NBA, you know, so right now, Orlando makes a huge trade yesterday. There's going to be four or five of those. There's next year in the east and the west because I think, listen, the west, the west gets a lot of love. I'm going to just stop there. But I don't think there's any team, any east team was scared of a West team, if you know what I mean. Like, I felt like if we got out of the east now, Oklahoma would have been the best team. That was the one team. You're like, man, they're tough, but I don't think there's a team. We were worried about Denver, but they let a lot of guys go and they're not the same. There's no dominant team right now, but we have one of the dominant players and so we have a shot and so does the Knicks and, you know, Boston. We'll see by the end of the year if Tatum can come back. I hated that injury. I hated seeing it, but and in the west too, like, you know, Oklahoma, let's say if they win it, Clippers, Denver, Lakers, Minnesota. Golden State has a full year now with Jimmy Shoot, it's wide open and that will be great for the league.
- [60:21]
Bill Simmons
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- [62:13]
Doc Rivers
I'm staying out of it. But I do think, yeah, I think he'll come back by the end of this next season, you know, because he had it early enough in the playoffs. But I got to say this about Dame. Dame had two injuries, you know. You know, I jokingly told Dame, I cried twice for you, damn it, in one year. You know, because when he had the blood clot, Bill, there was, there was a moment when I got the news because I'm old and I know what blood clots usually mean, you know, so when I first heard the news, I literally, my eyes watered because I'm thinking this guy's about to get robbed of the rest of his career. And then within the next day we find, okay, no, not career threatening. He's going to be. He may even come back. And then when he went down and I walked out on that floor and the first thing he said to me was, man, I think I sprained my ankle. And I was, I didn't say anything, but I, you know, I was looking at it, you know, I, my brain, I was thinking that wasn't an ankle, but let's, I remember saying, let's get you in the back. And that was it. You know, I think Darwin or someone came and grabbed him. But man, you just, the guy does everything you asked him to do. He does all the work and then bam, that happens. That is part of the game, you know. But that was a rough one for me to see.
- [63:37]
Bill Simmons
Well, it sounds like, I mean, the one thing from, from talking to you over the last year and a half and so it really seems like you like the team, like the group of guys like you, like you guys had the right vibes and, you know, I even thought if, if you got by Indie Indiana somehow, like, who knows, like, yeah, you were really optimistic. I was surprised.
- [63:57]
Doc Rivers
I love the group. You know, Giannis is one of those like Kevin Garnett superstars that you can coach him hard, but he's fun to coach, you know what I'm saying? By that, that gave me life again. I needed that. And like Bobby, we just got a bunch of grownups. I keep saying that. We got a bunch of grownups and we got the right mix. I do believe teams, the old and the new, you need a mix of both. I think Oklahoma adding the Hardensteins and the Carusos was huge for them. They needed the right. You can't, teams make a mistake, then you go out and just get any vet. You can't do that. You have to get the right vets. And Oklahoma did that. And you can see that Caruso, game four, you know, we could talk about Shea and all that. Caruso won game four for them. He single handedly willed them to that game. And that's that veteran leadership. He had won a title before. He knows what it takes. He does all the dirty work. And that's how you feel. That's what I like about our team. We have young guys, AJ Green, Gary, Trent, still really young, but then we have older guys. I had lunch with Brook yesterday and like, you can't get enough of those guys. Now we're in Orlando, so Brooks at Disney, obviously, so you could find them and you can have lunch with them, but I think that's what makes it.
- [65:24]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I didn't talk. We didn't talk. Since you had this last season, was there a player that you went against that you were just shooting, shocked by? You didn't realize until you were coaching how good somebody was or how good somebody had the potential to be. Anybody jump out?
- [65:39]
Doc Rivers
Brunt. Brunson.
- [65:42]
Bill Simmons
How come?
- [65:42]
Doc Rivers
Jalen Brunson? I, I, I liked him, you know, in Dallas, you know, he played okay against me when he, the first year in Philly, but when we played them, when I came, you know, and I'd done a couple games, but when we played them, I think it was at home last Year. And I was like, holy gosh. You. You. This guy is. He's good. Like he is. He's. With his size. To be that unstoppable to me is just absolutely unbelievable. You worry about his health because the way he play, he plays almost, you know, running back basketball, if you know what I mean. Everything's physical, everything's tough. But, man, he's way better than I thought he was.
- [66:36]
Bill Simmons
If you were the czar of the NBA, was there a rule change you would do? Is there anything that drove you crazy as a coach?
- [66:43]
Doc Rivers
Has the league evolved in a certain.
- [66:45]
Bill Simmons
Way that drives you nuts?
- [66:47]
Doc Rivers
No. I mean, I like the way the league is evolving right now. I really do. I like that the game is getting more physical. I hate the fact that if I use a challenge in the first half, I only have one left. I do think if I win a challenge, I should keep my challenges. I don't think I should lose them. And the only rule that I would change is at. The last play of a game should always be reviewed whether you have a challenge or not.
- [67:19]
Bill Simmons
Oh, that's interesting. So somebody makes a shot at the end, but you have no challenge. They just have to do it anyway.
- [67:26]
Doc Rivers
Yeah, because, you know, I kept thinking that Detroit Nick game, that was clearly a foul, and. And they missed it and didn't call it. Wouldn't you be sick if that was game seven of the NBA Finals and you didn't have a challenge? That would be a. That would be awful. So I do think coaches should be able to keep their challenges. You know, if they get it right, they get it right, you should be able to keep it. And then the last play of the game should just be challenged. If it's close, the ref should be able to say, I want to take a look. And if they had taken a look in that game, they would have called a foul, and Detroit would have won that game. And so I do think that's the one play that should just be challenged.
- [68:17]
Bill Simmons
What happened?
- [68:17]
Doc Rivers
One more rule.
- [68:18]
Bill Simmons
One more rule. Okay. Yeah, let's hear it.
- [68:20]
Doc Rivers
Out of bounds. Out of bounds should just be done in Secaucus. We don't need headphones for that.
- [68:27]
Bill Simmons
Right?
- [68:27]
Doc Rivers
Like, just look at it and make the choice. That would save us five minutes a game, which Al. Which Al Michaels tells me all the time, you gotta. You gotta speed the end of the games up. So that would actually happen.
- [68:41]
Bill Simmons
What's the right number of games for the regular season?
- [68:44]
Doc Rivers
Boy, I get into this, it's.
- [68:46]
Bill Simmons
No, just do it.
- [68:49]
Doc Rivers
70. You want really?
- [68:51]
Bill Simmons
60?
- [68:52]
Doc Rivers
Yeah, but I'd say 70. 70 is the perfect number. It really is. I think you should start the season later. You know, I loved the one lockout year when we started it, that was. I think the first game was Christmas Day. I wouldn't do that. I would start at December 1st just to get a rhythm. So by Christmas, you know, you can kind of have some big games, but 70. And for me, it's been. I've always stayed on 82, Bill, because everybody else did it, you know, so you want to say 82, but I do think the more we keep talking about this, I think at some point we may have to have a serious discussion because no one wants to see the injured basketball. We want to see healthy guys play. And the facts are, guys are getting injured more now, and we have to figure that out.
- [69:46]
Bill Simmons
Especially, like lower leg injuries. Just feels like there's more than ever.
- [69:52]
Doc Rivers
Jason Tatum is too young to have an Achilles period. And so that made no sense to me. And so there's something that's going on because there's more Achilles, there's more blood clots. There's something going on, and we have to figure it out.
- [70:08]
Bill Simmons
All right, last question. Larry David. His Knicks team makes the final Four and falls short. What was that roller coaster ride like in Tex, even though you weren't in the same spot as. He actually had a good Knicks team for once?
- [70:24]
Doc Rivers
Yeah, well, it was rough for him, you know, because he went to that Game one Indiana, and they lost and he left. He was supposed to be in the same seats at Game 2, and he couldn't do it. He just couldn't.
- [70:41]
Bill Simmons
He left the next morning. He was gone.
- [70:43]
Doc Rivers
He left the next morning. And so he calls me and says, I'm coming back because I want to play golf with my guys on Sunday. And I said, you're a freaking liar. That is not why you're coming back. You're coming back because you're superstitious and you're sitting in game one and they lost, and so you're trying to change them. Mojo. And that's Larry101.
- [71:05]
Bill Simmons
He blamed himself for the loss.
- [71:09]
Doc Rivers
He was miserable over that game, and he refused to go in Game 2 because he didn't want to. He just said, I want no parts of it. He's a real fan. Like, he is into it. It's awesome.
- [71:23]
Bill Simmons
It was great to have the Knicks fans back, all the versions of them with the biggest fan base. I mean, you played there, you got to see it firsthand, but it's really like the all time Craziest fan base when it's going great, their chests are out, they're going nuts as soon as it goes bad. They are the most despondent fan base you're ever going to have. Davis. The gamut of immersion.
- [71:43]
Doc Rivers
Go to York, go. You know, I was at Nick and we had that run and that song. Go New York, go. The city was on fire. It really was. And that's how you felt this year, you know, And I do think, you know, Dolan gets a lot of heat, but I don't know who's doing it. But whoever thought of bringing all the ex Knicks back to games. That was a genius movement. Yeah, it was awesome. It was really awesome. We need one more guy to show up and then it's all done. Oakley.
- [72:12]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [72:13]
Doc Rivers
And good luck there.
- [72:14]
Bill Simmons
But yeah, I don't know if that's happening.
- [72:16]
Doc Rivers
It was, it was. That's.
- [72:17]
Bill Simmons
You might have to broker that one, Doc. All right, so you have.
- [72:21]
Doc Rivers
No, thank you.
- [72:22]
Bill Simmons
So you're in Orlando, you're set. You're going to celebrate the Commissioner's cup and Seth Curry's three point percentage title.
- [72:29]
Doc Rivers
How about that? Yeah, yeah.
- [72:32]
Bill Simmons
Little known facts. Seth Curry, 46, 49%, whatever it was, led the league.
- [72:37]
Doc Rivers
Yeah. We have trophies at the River's house right now. You know, we have some hardware from regular season.
- [72:41]
Bill Simmons
So how do we get him to Denver?
- [72:44]
Doc Rivers
I actually think the perfect place for him would be Golden State.
- [72:49]
Bill Simmons
Oh, is that possible?
- [72:51]
Doc Rivers
I don't know if it's possible or not. I don't know if either one of them would want it actually. But I do think. Forget that. It has nothing to do with that. It's the way they play. He fits perfect. And I've said that for two or three years and whenever you bring it up in the family, they kind of. But I do think it'd be sensational.
- [73:15]
Bill Simmons
It'd be great for him to ask you, actually. Do you think more teams are going to emulate this? Okc, Indiana, fast paced, nobody has the ball for too long. People keep cutting and moving. Is this going to be like a copycat thing with that?
- [73:29]
Doc Rivers
Well, everything in our league is copycat a little bit, as you know. I do think not exactly the way they play, but I do think because of collective bargaining, I think teams are starting to see trying to have the loaded three star team doesn't work anymore. So I do think you have two teams now that you can make a case. There's a superstar and then there's really, really, really good player and then a lot of good players. I think that's the model you're going to see. I don't know if everyone's going to adopt the same style, but I do think that's what you're going to start seeing is that model of team.
- [74:05]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, not every team can do it, but it would have to be a team that has a bunch of guards, you know, and is unselfish. But I don't know.
- [74:12]
Doc Rivers
We'll see what happens.
- [74:14]
Bill Simmons
All right, Doc Rivers, it was great to see you. I'll see you in la.
- [74:19]
Doc Rivers
Walk on the street and say, hey, get this coaching. Get back to the, get back to the podcast.
- [74:24]
Bill Simmons
I know people love the pods, so.
- [74:27]
Doc Rivers
We'Ll get back at some point for sure.
- [74:29]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I'll see you in la. But say hi to the Curry family and the, and the Rivers family and all the, all the family members. But it was great to see you. Thanks for doing this with us.
- [74:37]
Doc Rivers
Good seeing you.
- [74:39]
Bill Simmons
All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Eduardo Gahao. As always. Thanks to Doc Rivers. Great to have him on. Really miss that guy. And I know I'm going to be Thursday night after game six live on YouTube. That's definitely happening. Might have another podcast midweek. Not sure yet. New rewatchables coming on Tuesday night where you're doing Marathon man for New York City Month. So stay tuned for that. Don't forget you can watch all the clips and videos for this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. And we are a video podcast on Spotify as well. I will see you in a couple days. Must be 21 plus in President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + in President D.C. gambling problem. Call 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York.