The Luka Buzz, NFL Draft Scoops, and a Huge Celtics Sale With Todd McShay and Chris Mannix

Summary

The Bill Simmons Podcast: Episode Summary Title: The Luka Buzz, NFL Draft Scoops, and a Huge Celtics Sale With Todd McShay and Chris Mannix
Host: Bill Simmons
Guests: Todd McShay, Chris Mannix
Release Date: March 20, 2025

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1. Luka Doncic's Electrifying Lakers Game Experience [00:00 - 12:37]

Bill Simmons kicks off the episode by recounting his first in-person experience watching Luka Doncic play at a Lakers game. He vividly describes Luka’s explosive performance, where Luka scored 20 of the first 33 points, creating a buzz similar to legends like Curry, Kobe, and Michael Jordan.

Bill Simmons (00:45): "There's no Jokic, there's no Murray... Luka comes out, he scores 20 of the first 33 points. You could feel a buzz building in the arena."

Despite Luka’s dominant first quarter, his performance tapered off in the subsequent quarters, leading to an easy Lakers victory. Simmons draws parallels between Luka’s impact and that of Kobe Bryant, emphasizing Luka's potential to become a franchise cornerstone similar to Kobe and LeBron James.

Bill Simmons (11:50): "If you're going to have the perfect Laker for central casting, you'd want somebody who's a little polarizing, which Luka is right."

2. NFL Draft Insights with Todd McShay [12:37 - 44:26]

Todd McShay, renowned NFL draft analyst, joins the podcast to discuss the upcoming NFL Draft, focusing on the Cleveland Browns' selection of Shador Sanders. The conversation delves into Sanders' traditional quarterback skill set, contrasting with the modern mobile quarterbacks, and evaluates his fit within Kevin Stefanski's coaching system.

Todd McShay (15:00): "He's not a big, strong arm, mobile quarterback... he's a way more traditional quarterback."

Simmons and McShay explore the Browns' strategic position, considering their salary cap constraints due to the Deshaun Watson deal. They analyze potential scenarios where the Browns might opt for veteran quarterbacks like Russell Wilson or Kirk Cousins to bridge the gap until Shador Sanders develops.

Bill Simmons (19:46): "There's no trade up team... we don't think because the Raiders got Geno. I don't think that the Jets just went in on Fields."

The duo also touches on mock drafts, discussing the likelihood of teams like the New England Patriots targeting wide receivers or running backs over quarterbacks, depending on team needs and draft strategies.

Todd McShay (30:08): "You have Mason Graham and Tyler Warren... the running backs are fascinating to me too."

3. Boston Celtics Sale Discussion with Chris Mannix [56:43 - 93:47]

Chris Mannix, a prominent sports journalist, discusses the high-profile sale of the Boston Celtics to Bill Chisholm for a record $6.1 billion. Mannix expresses astonishment at the sale price, noting the complexities of acquiring an iconic franchise without securing an arena.

Chris Mannix (57:58): "That's a record, that's a huge number regardless... You're just getting the Boston Celtics here. And yeah, it's an iconic franchise, but it's a franchise that costs a lot of money."

The conversation delves into the strained relationship between the previous owners, Wick Grosbeck and Steve Pagliuca, highlighting tensions and the potential for future conflicts under the new ownership structure. They speculate on the role of Grosbeck as CEO and governor for the first three years, questioning the sustainability of such an arrangement.

Chris Mannix (64:15): "I would say to Bill, like there were people rooting for him to get it. I do think I was kind of...", Bill Simmons (75:07): "But he's doing a lot of debt and all this stuff to. To.,"

Mannix and Simmons analyze the potential impact of this sale on the Celtics' roster, focusing on key players like Al Horford. They debate whether the new ownership group will maintain the current team structure or make significant changes to their high payroll commitments.

Bill Simmons (83:36): "And there's another piece of this, too. And I'm sure you've been around the team a lot. He's pretty devastated that they're selling in the first place."

The discussion also touches on broader NBA ownership trends, comparing Chisholm’s acquisition strategy to that of other owners like Mark Cuban, and the challenges of maintaining team stability amidst high financial stakes.

4. Additional Sports Topics and Closing Remarks [93:47 - End]

As the episode progresses, Bill Simmons and Chris Mannix explore various other sports topics, including upcoming boxing events like the Canelo vs. Crawford fight, and the strategic decisions teams like the New England Patriots and Cleveland Browns face in both the NBA and NFL.

Chris Mannix (97:48): "So their plan, what I was told, was to do like one big event a quarter. Like that's the mindset of Netflix."

They also briefly discuss draft strategies, player performance forecasts, and the potential implications of major athletic events on betting platforms like FanDuel Sportsbook.

Notable Quotes

• Bill Simmons (00:45): "There's no Jokic, there's no Murray... Luka comes out, he scores 20 of the first 33 points. You could feel a buzz building in the arena."
• Todd McShay (15:00): "He's not a big, strong arm, mobile quarterback... he's a way more traditional quarterback."
• Chris Mannix (57:58): "That's a record, that's a huge number regardless... You're just getting the Boston Celtics here."
• Chris Mannix (64:15): "I would say to Bill, like there were people rooting for him to get it. I do think I was kind of..."
• Bill Simmons (75:07): "But he's doing a lot of debt and all this stuff to. To."

Conclusions and Insights

• Luka Doncic's Potential: Simmons highlights Luka’s ability to electrify the crowd and his potential to become a legendary figure akin to Kobe Bryant and LeBron James, despite occasional performance inconsistencies.

• NFL Draft Strategies: McShay and Simmons provide an in-depth analysis of quarterback prospects, emphasizing the importance of fit within team systems and the strategic maneuvers teams must employ given salary cap limitations.

• Boston Celtics Ownership Dynamics: The sale of the Celtics signifies a major shift in NBA ownership, with concerns about the new owner's commitment and the future stability of the franchise. The relationship dynamics between Grosbeck and Pagliuca suggest potential internal conflicts that could impact team decisions and performance.

• Broader Sports Implications: The discussions extend to upcoming major sporting events and their impacts on team strategies, player careers, and sports-related investments.

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For listeners who missed this episode, the podcast offers comprehensive insights into both NBA and NFL landscapes, blending personal experiences with expert analysis. The engaging discussion with Todd McShay and Chris Mannix provides valuable perspectives on player performances, draft strategies, and significant franchise sales, making it a must-listen for sports enthusiasts eager to stay informed on the latest developments.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

Welcome to the Bill Simmons podcast, presented by FanDuel Sportsbook. So I went to the Lakers game last night. It was my first Luka Doncic in person experience. I got to see some of the number 77 jerseys. Did I look around and wonder, are there more 77s than 23s in the audience? I might have looked at a couple sections and wondered about it, but something cool really happened during the game. Luka came out. He always tests these first quarters, and this is something he always did in Dallas, too. You kind of want to watch the first quarter of a Luca game, because you never know what the ceiling is going to be like. At some point, he's going to score 75 points in a game. It's going to happen. And he usually tests that first quarter to see how much he's feeling it. So he does it. In this Lakers game, they're playing Denver, there's no Jokic, there's no Murray, because God forbid you go to an NBA game and see all the stars on both teams. There's no LeBron either. Luka comes out, he scores 20 of the first 33 points. And you could feel a buzz building in the arena. That is the sound you only get to hear when this is happening with Curry. When Curry's hitting threes, you go back in time, like when Kobe was feeling it some nights, when Michael Jordan was feeling it some night. It's the rarest sound you get at a basketball game where everybody's like, holy shit. You start looking at the scoreboard. So with like four and a half minutes left, the Lakers had 33 points and he had 20. And now everybody's like, out of their minds. They. They just can't. Oh, my. Is he going to. Could he score 100? Could he get third in the first quarter? Of course, from that point on, he goes down. He's. He stunk in the second quarter. He wasn't good in the third quarter either. They. They win easily because the Nuggets had nobody but the buzz in the arena. And I've been going to Laker games. I moved here in November 2002. The only other time I felt it at a Laker game like that was when Kobe was playing. And I remember the first time I moved to LA in mid November and I went to a Laker game. Maybe two weeks later, somebody brought me. I'd never been to a Laker game before. Grew up going to Celtic games, East coast, my whole life. Just had always hated the Lakers, hated the Showtime. Never really understood it. And I go to this game. And the thing that jumped out to me, it was Kobe and Shaq. It was, you know, it was right after they had won the three peat, they lose in that 03 season. But it's Kobe and Shaq. It's, you know, typical really good home game. The thing that jumped out to me just sitting there was like, oh, my God, these, these fans love Kobe. Like they love him. And it was my big takeaway from the night, like, and there, there's reasons for that, right? He's drafted by the team, he's a teenager. They get to watch him go through the stages, then they win titles with him. Shaq shows up from Orlando. He'd been there, I don't know, four years in Orlando, comes to the Lakers. So he's a little bit of a hired gun. Kind of like LeBron now. And they love both of them together, but they really love Kobe. And you could feel that during the rest of the run, especially the 06 season. I remember going to a bunch of games that year. It was after the trial, they weren't very good, but he just single handedly scores 35 points a game. And just at some point after everything that happened with him in Colorado, it changed the tenor of the relationship of the fans with him in a way that people were like, this is our guy. We are sticking with him through thick and thin. Shaq's gone. Our team's not going to be very good, but this is our guy. And you could really feel it. That 06 season and the only time I can remember with a basketball player was Bird with the Celtics, where it was just like 100% approval rating. Everybody's all in. This is our guy. We believe he can do anything. And I felt like Kobe got to the point with the fans, really in the mid 2000s, you could feel it the most. And there was always buzz with him. And that year was the year. That was the year that he had that huge Toronto game, the 81. But in general, he was a threat to do whatever night after night after night. LeBron, as great as he is, was always like a totality of what he was doing. Like the, you know, if you love basketball, how do you not absolutely love what he's doing? But the ultimate LeBron game would be like 32 points, 15 assists, 12 rebounds. It's a little like Jokic, yo. We don't, we're not going to tell our grandkids. We were at a game where Jokic had 30, 20 and 15. It's amazing to watch. There's something different when somebody might have the chance to really go off. It's the rarest thing in basketball. And there was that feeling in there for a couple of minutes. So it was that. Plus, you know, there's performance with him where Los Angeles just makes sense as a team that he plays for. He's working the crowd. At one point in the first quarter, some guy in red, he got fouled. And LUCA Luka has 20 at that point, he gets fouled. The guy, this dumbass with the drinks, like, ball don't lie. And Luka hears it, and he turns around, he starts talking to the guy, talking shit to him. And now he's just interacting with this whole section. He does things that I think are pretty rare from a basketball standpoint. He does hear the crowd, he does interact with people. He does talk shit. He talks shit to the refs, he talks shit to everybody he's playing against. Like, he almost got into it at one point with Peyton Watson. And you're watching, it's like, oh, watch out. Luke is pissed now. He just feels like he belongs in la. And that was my big takeaway. I was thinking about, like, if you're going to have the perfect Laker for central casting, you'd want somebody who's a little polarizing, which Luka is right. Great player, hasn't won the title yet. Little out of shape, doesn't really play defense. We'll have quarters where he just looks terrible, then a quarter where he's awesome. And there's like, always the potential of something more. And he's still great. He's still one of the five best players in the league, but it's like, I wonder what else is there? So you have that. You have the performance aspect, which Kobe was unbelievable at, and LeBron's great at, too. But Kobe, there was a demeanor to him at these games, especially as he really bought into it that was just awesome. You have the no ceiling in any game you go to with Luca, which I think is as rare as it gets. And it's the thing that I think made Curry so special the last 10 years. It's like, am I at the game right now where Curry's going to hit 15 threes? Am I at the game right now where Curry is going to get 70? You have. There's a one on one aspect with Luka that I think's important. There's nobody in the league remotely like him. Like, remotely. All the stuff he's doing, like, he got in the first eight minutes of the game I went to last night Granted, Denver's missing their two best guys, but he beats. He beats everybody off the dribble for eight minutes in a row. And he's doing the herky jerky stuff. He's banging people. It's like. It felt like he could post up whoever he wanted. He'd go buy whoever he wanted. He could make 27 footers. Oh, and he's an awesome passer, too. So you have that. You have the Hollywood Redemption comeback story because the Mavericks gave up on him. Like, you could say they traded him. They got a lot back. Well, obviously they didn't get a lot back, but they gave up on him. They didn't believe that they could win a title with him. They didn't want to pay him 330 million. LA loves that you have. The Lakers outwitted another team to get him. Which is it? I gotta be honest, it feels like the Laker fans have their swagger back a little because, you know, you think like, really since the Kobe, Nash, Howard year, and then they just sucked forever and they drafted in the top four and the picks were like, pretty hit or miss, and they missed out on guys like Tatum. And then they end up with LeBron basically because LeBron just wanted to move to LA. And then they end up with Davis because LeBron made them trade everything for Davis. So now they end up with those two guys. But for the most part, I wouldn't call it the shrewdest team over the years. Then Reeves is a great pick, and then Luca is the greatest trade maybe in the history of the league, at least since the Bill Russell trade. So you have that. And then you have the night tonight with Luca where you. You show up in the building and you don't know where you're going to get. And you can't put a price on that. It goes beyond the trade. It goes beyond, you know, the fact that they fleeced Dallas, that they have somebody who's about to the primary career. Like, this guy has a chance to be Kobe for these guys, and that's the difference. LeBron came in 2018. He'd been in the league 15 years. He belonged to Cleveland. So it's a business arrangement. It was year to year and it was great and it's worked out awesome. And they have a chance to make the finals this year, but it was always a little bit of an arrangement. Kobe is different. And when you go to the staples and you see the statues, when you walk in and we were talking about last night, we're walking in, is Luka getting a statue here someday. The statues are really smart. You go and you see Jerry west, you see Kobe, you see Magic, you see Shaq, and it's like, whose statue were they? Could LeBron get a statue? Maybe. Maybe if they make the finals this year, maybe he's going to get one anyway. Um, but Luka, what's sitting at stake now for him is not only can he become the face of the league, we earlier the year, we're talking about face of the league. Face of the league. Like this is it. This, this guy has a chance now to be the face of the league. Could he win titles here? Could you get a statue? And could you be one of the big celebrities in LA where night after night after night people are going to these games to see him, to see what happens with him. And you could feel the buzz already there's more celebrities at all these games. The energy is different. And I'm not saying it was bad before, but the energy reminded me of what it was like when I went to that Kobe game. It's the same thing. And you kind of either have that or you don't. And he has it. And it's one of the many reasons why that trade is fucking incredibly stupid. So I just wanted to mention that. Let's get to the rest of the podcast. You're listening to the Bill Simmons Podcast presented by fanduel Fandom fanduel Sportsbook is the best place to bet on the NBA. We have these fun little Tuesday Friday player performance stuff. We have same game parlays. We have picks for me sometimes and boost and all kinds of fun things. Get ready in the playoffs. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app today to get in on the action. And by the way, the Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit theringer.com RG to learn more. Listen to the end of this episode for additional details. Must be 21 +president select states gaming problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com hey, we launched a new podcast for the Ringer and Spotify. It is called Good Hang with Amy Poehler. Two new episodes. Tina Fey and Martin Short. Check it out. It's awesome. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Michelob Ultra. A superior light beer and the ultimate trophy. Win or lose, you're bound to enjoy the ride with a good beer in hand. Michelob Ultra crisp, refreshing, only 95 calories. A superior light beer, no matter the game, sport or season, superior is worth playing for. So sign up for ultra [e-mail] courtside and you can enjoy some of these games with a nice beer in your hand. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2025 Anheuser Busch Michelob Ultra registered light beer, St. Louis, Missouri. Must be 21 plus to order alcohol. Alcohol available only in select market. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast network. I put up a new rewatchables on Monday, Days of Thunder. I gotta be honest, I didn't realize how many people liked this movie. A lot of buzz out there. People pumped that we did. This new prestige TV podcast went up Sunday night after White Lotus. We did episode five. We have episode six in the bank that is coming Sunday night immediately after White Lotus ends. And then we don't have the screener yet for episode seven. The going to get dicey, folks. There's only two episodes left and we have not seen episode seven. So I will. I will keep you posted. I know you're on the edge of your seat. We're also brought to you by FanDuel Sportsbook. Check them out. And we are going to have Todd McShay talking about the NFL draft a little bit later. But first, Chris Manix talking Boston Celtics sale and some NBA stuff as well. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, we're bringing in the new owner of the Boston Celtics, Todd McShay. Congratulations. Can't wait to see what you do with the team.

[Todd McShay]

Pretty good money they got for that, huh? Quite the investment.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Big six with no arena. So you have the McShay show for us. You have the McShay report of excellent newsletter that is really becoming more and more exciting as we're within five weeks of the NFL draft. And I absolutely have some special interest because my favorite team is picking fourth. But I wanted to go through some of the stuff you have in here. I feel bad anytime I have you on. I feel like I'm stealing something from Marcillo. Did. Do I have to work this out with them? I don't know. I just feel like I'm going in his fridge and grabbing, like, his grapefruit juice and taking, like, a big swig. No, you're like. You're like team Marcillo. I. I always feel bad. Yeah.

[Todd McShay]

But we're all on the team now, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah. That great. That's a good way to put it. I'm gonna tell him that it's starting to look like 12 for the QBs, which is what you laid out. A mock draft 2.0 cam ward to Tennessee Sanders to the Browns. Can we go through all the breadcrumbs of this Cleveland Browns Sanders, please? Let's hear it.

[Todd McShay]

All right, so, I mean, you turned me onto the. What is it? Bazana. I had to look up who Bazana was.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you like how I was on deep social media trying to find weird people talking about this?

[Todd McShay]

Yeah, I actually did. And I'm sitting here, right, and I'm watching tape and it was running back. So I'm like, I'm on like the eighth or ninth running back and I've got like 20 more guys to do. And then we're texting about that and I was like, you know what? I'm going to stop down for a minute. I thought I was going to take like 10 minutes and look through and see. Then I kind of got into my own little deep dive of. All right, so everyone wants to say Shador's got a second round grade for a lot of teams. I talked to two, we'll call them sources, two personnel people right at the combine who were in the 15 minute interviews with Shador Sanders for teams that are drafting in the top 10 that need a quarterback. And I was surprised. The information that came out was, and I'll kind of paraphrase or summarize. Should it just. We got the vibe after meeting with all these other players, all the years of doing this, you can sense how important these meetings are for the individual player. When they come in for Shador with us, we didn't get the sense that he cared an awful lot about what we thought of.

[Bill Simmons]

Of him. Right. It was almost like he was meeting with his accountant for 15 minutes or something. He wasn't trying to sell them.

[Todd McShay]

Right. Like, exactly. And so, so I'm getting that information and I look at him as a player who in certain systems, certain situations, he's got a chance to really succeed in the league. But he's not for everybody. He's. He's not a big, strong arm, mobile quarterback. He's none of those things. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

And so, yeah, because the perception is, because it's Deion's son, you just, in your head, you're like, oh, he's gotta be an amazing athlete. And he's actually a way more traditional quarterback.

[Todd McShay]

It's the biggest surprise you'll see. And he was talking about, I'm going to, I'm going to run faster than my dad. I'm like, I don't know if you're going to, if you were to run a 40, I don't know if you're going to break like four, eight.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Todd McShay]

So. So you've got all that. And so. And now the reports come out from different people in the league. We don't even have a first round grade on them. And so I get it because in the teams that are willing to talk are the teams that don't have interest. Right. So that's kind of the backdrop. And then you, you know, you, you send me some of that stuff. And I had heard that Cleveland's a place that he, that he has interest in, but that's a short list. And there are some teams and I think those teams that I talked to that he didn't have the, you know, overwhelming interviews with are the ones that are on the list where coach prime has been telling us since what, October, November, that there's going to be some teams that I, that my son's just not going to go play for. So you start to put all these things together. And I just took a minute and I went back and I looked at Kevin Stefanski's history. What has made him successful? What he's, what has he been successful with? Well, Case keenum he won 11 games with.

[Bill Simmons]

Wow.

[Todd McShay]

As a, as a coach. Kirk cousins he won 10 games with. And quarterback coach, offensive coordinator, like, hands on with those guys. And so it got me thinking, like the skill sets are the same. Not big, not mobile, not elite arms. But process quickly. That's his secret sauce. That's.

[Bill Simmons]

What would you put, Would you put Flacco in there?

[Todd McShay]

Flacco, Modern day Flacco still has a big arm, but not like, you know, the Baltimore Ravens. In his prime, Flaco and has never been overly mobile. So. So, yeah, so he's winning games with these guys who are pocket passers. Don't have these traits, but they all process quickly. They're accurate passers. That's what Chador is. And so now I'm looking at. I'm saying Cleveland is in purgatory salary cap wise because of the Deshaun Watson deal. So if I'm Andrew Barry and I don't have any information that's saying Cleveland is taking Shador just to make that clear. But if I'm Andrew Barry and I'm saying, all right, the salary caps horrible this year and it's not going to be any better next year, we maybe can get a Russell Wilson or make a trade for Kirk Cousins, but that's just temporary, that could help us win some games this year while we're developing a young quarterback, whether that's for later in his rookie year or for Year two. But we got to get to year two, because if we're drafting this high next year and talking about, like, Garrett Nussmeier from LSU or Carson Beck or whoever the quarterbacks are going to be next year, we're probably not the decision makers here in Cleveland.

[Bill Simmons]

We probably was going to say they have to get to year two, not the Browns.

[Todd McShay]

Correct.

[Bill Simmons]

People making the pick have to get to year two.

[Todd McShay]

Correct. So it makes sense that you bring in Kenny Pickett as a. As a backup, and maybe he. He does better things than all of us expect if forced into duty. Exactly. And. But. So why are they still in the market for. For these veterans? Well, they're not going to cost anything. And so it's. They're only up. They weren't in it for Stafford. They're not in it for. For Aaron Rodgers. But if they can bring in someone to help win games, whether it's the whole year or part of this rookie year for Shador Sanders, that gives them a shot. And then if you have Chador, there's energy, there's excitement about the future, and Stefanski is one of the handful of guys in the league that I believe could get the most out of Shador and actually win a lot of games with.

[Bill Simmons]

So we're checking a bunch of different boxes that make the NFL draft and the NBA draft so much fun, right?

[Todd McShay]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

There's desperation. You have decision makers like, I might not be here in a year. What's my. What's my big swing? Well, we have no salary cap space. I have the second pick in the draft. Nobody's really going to probably trade up for this. And even if they do, I won't have a quarterback. We're going 6 and 11, 7 and 10 next year. See if that. You have the Miles Garrett piece. Who was going to leave, get a trade. Something happened. He gave that one interview where they asked him, are you comfortable with what's going to happen at quarterback? And he's like, oh, yes, I am. I was like, oh, what is it? Why is he comfortable now? There's no free agents. That Russell Wilson's not making him comfortable.

[Todd McShay]

I wouldn't think so.

[Bill Simmons]

Then you have Sanders, like, playing footsie on social media with the top Indians prospect, which I thought was notable. You had the dad who, if his son goes second in the NFL draft, it's more money, it's more prestige. All that stuff Cleveland.

[Todd McShay]

And is that, like, we can say all the things you want about Coach prime and. And he's not for everybody. And the way he Handles things is. Things are. It's kind of against the establishment. So there's obviously always going to be pushback. Right. But he is dialed into the league and he knows the guys that can help develop his son. And at the end of the day, as a father.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Todd McShay]

All you want to do is put your children in a position where they have the. They can help them get the best of what they are, no matter what. What their career path is. And so I think he looks at it and with these connections in the league and his understanding, and he looks at it and says, you know what? I'm in a good position. Yes, he makes more money if he goes picks 1, 2 or 3. But also with that, and it's kind of unique, there are three guys that are running the organization as head coaches that actually can coach quarterbacks. And he's not going number one where Brian Callahan is. But Stefanski is an outstanding quarterback developer and can work with him. And Brian Dabal, while he's worked with bigger, you know, Josh Allen's and Jalen Hurts at Alabama, he's worked with guys that have different traits. Brian Dabel can coach quarterbacks really well.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Todd McShay]

So I think the. The combination of, yeah, he gets more money, but probably just as if not more importantly, I know, I trust where he's going to go and the people who are going to be working with.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And as people listen to this, are gonna be like, well, of course Simmons wants him to go second because that's gonna push out the two best guys.

[Todd McShay]

You should have seen my comments after I came out and I started talking about this.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah, Simmons got to you.

[Todd McShay]

Simmons got to you. Right? And my answer is, yeah, he got me thinking. There's no question. He got me thinking with some of the social media stuff that I was oblivious to because I'm sitting here watching like, RJ Harvey, the running back from ucla.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, to be fair, this started in Cleveland. Like, there's people that cover the team, there's people who follow the team, and they're just kind of reading the tea leaves. And it's for a lot of the reasons you mentioned. It's. They really are the only chance for them to get a quarterback who might make it. And this is the most fun part of the stretch for the draft where you have 50, 50 odds usually with a quarterback this high, Right. This might be 40, 60, but you start looking hard at the 40, you're like, well, Stefanski, well, we have a good foundation around him. Well, we have no chance to get a quarterback. What if we can turn him into something like, you know, Rossillo has a theory, he would just take a quarterback every year in the first round, I think because it's like just keep throwing the darts and at some point until you hit the balloon.

[Todd McShay]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

In this case, if you're them, you have no other way to get a quarterback and you are absolutely murdered by the, by the DeShawn thing. The Giants one that's a little tougher one. Cause they're not in the same salary capel that the Browns are in and they're not.

[Todd McShay]

But, but no one wants to. Matthew Stafford, at the end of the day, he was offered the same and I've even heard reports maybe like a little bit more to go to New York. Yeah, but if you're, if you're looking at it and I say I get two, three years left, I'm not certain that Joe Shane and more importantly Brian Dabel is going to be there for two or three years.

[Bill Simmons]

What's the stability that they're in the same desperation thing. Right. They hit on Sanders, they could save the jobs.

[Todd McShay]

Yes. So that's why for, for the majority of people I talked to in the league, Bill, it is a later first, maybe early second round grade for, for Shador. But for the teams that are in these very unique situations, Cleveland at two and the Giants at three, they've, they have circumstances that require them to make decisions that maybe they wouldn't make if they had six years left on their contract. They'd done a lot of winning and they didn't, you know, they, they wanted a quarterback but they, they didn't need to reinvigorate the fan base and more importantly show promise towards the future.

[Bill Simmons]

So this isn't Mitch Trubisky either because this kid comes with real fame already. People have watched him in college, they've watched him do good things. They like his dad, he's got some pizzazz. Whereas like Trubisky, it's like, hey, he's 13 games and he's like Darko Milichik basically. Hey, on paper this guy's amazing and there's really no evidence at all.

[Todd McShay]

And he, no adversity. Didn't have to come back for a second year where defensive coordinators had seen it the first time around, like Shador. Here's the thing that I find interesting. First of all, when you watch the tape, he's tough as nails. So forget all like the diamonds and the commercials and all that stuff. Yeah, this guy is an old school throwback pocket passing stare down the Gun barrel, take the hits and pop back up type of quarterback. Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Todd McShay]

And the other part is too, it's interesting talking to people in the league to a T. It's like, yeah, Prime's getting all the media attention and people think that that's a headache. He's not going to be a headache when, When Shador comes here, in fact. And I don't want to go into a lot of the detail and it's speculation and when one person's thoughts on it versus another. But Cam Ward's got a father, apparently, who's been very involved. And so there's. There's talk in the league of like. And it's not going to affect where Cam goes. He's going to be the first pick in the draft. But, like, the, the interesting part to people in the league is like, we'd be a little bit more worried about the externals with Cam than we are with Shador and Coach Prime. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And he's also had a big spotlight on him for the last couple years. Right. And abNormally large for QB. There's one other piece. So you were talking about how he didn't do well in a couple of those interviews.

[Todd McShay]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Or that the, the, the vibes were off and it.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah. Nothing was disrespectful.

[Bill Simmons]

No. Just like, hmm. Doesn't seem like he's that interested in coming to our team.

[Todd McShay]

He knows something that maybe we just don't know. And, And.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. So there's an NBA version of this during the COVID draft when Lamelo ends up going second to Charlotte. And the story I always heard was they. And they have to do zoom interviews and it's. It's like the most fucked up draft process ever. And they do the Lamelo thing and he's just really off in it and he's distant and just seems like he doesn't really give a shit about the warriors. And it affected how they thought about, you know, whether they should take him or not. And then it turns out he probably knew he was going, you know, Charlotte. He probably wanted to go there. And you kind of perform what your expectations are for where you want to go. Right. So if it's a team, and I could totally see it if it's a team you don't really want to go to, you turn in a Tom Cruise and Risky Business where you're like, yeah, I don't really want to go to University of Illinois. I want to go to Princeton. Right. So if he has an inkling that he could go second, he knows In Cleveland. Like obviously LeBron was there. Like you can become a big star in Cleveland, but I can see it, it's a good situation because their team wasn't bad last year. Like it's not, they're not that far away from being a little more impactful. Maybe if they had a decent qb.

[Todd McShay]

No. And they, and they need a running back. And this is, this just so happens to be the best running back class maybe in the history of the draft and certainly since 2017.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Todd McShay]

And you know they're, they're not that far away. They're really not. And I go through it if I'm Shador and I've got assurances that it could be Cleveland, but if it's not, it's very likely going to be the Giants. I think that that probably led to what you were just talking about too.

[Bill Simmons]

And there's no trade up team. We don't think because the Raiders got Geno. I don't think that the jets just went in on Fields. I don't see them trading up anyway. And then I do hear that the.

[Todd McShay]

Jets, the jets could pull. Could throw us a curveball the first night. Don't be. Let's just get it out here. Now I'm not saying it's going to happen, but I think there's a little bit of love for Jackson Darton that building.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, it seems like he's the Bo Nicks of this draft.

[Todd McShay]

Absolutely.

[Bill Simmons]

Bo Nicks ends up going what, 12.

[Todd McShay]

He went 12.

[Bill Simmons]

Seemed inconceivable. He was second round, second round, second round, maybe late first round. Then all of a sudden he's 12.

[Todd McShay]

And if it wasn't Denver it was probably going to be second round and that place it just. Sean Payton fell in love with him. Perfect fit. And that's how it worked out. And listen, Jackson dark doesn't go seven, which again maybe let's put a 25, 30% chance at most at this point New Orleans is a possibility at nine.

[Bill Simmons]

But then after another team that's in salary capel and just completely screwed and have to get a quarterback somehow, right.

[Todd McShay]

And everyone's like, well they brought Derek Carr back, yeah, one more year. But this would actually be a perfect time to get a rookie quarterback as we work through all the salary stuff, not force him out there for year one. So I think Jackson Dart could be a top 10 pick. But if he's not, then it's like, you know, we talk about 21 to Pittsburgh or a team. That's the other thing. Either the Browns or the Giants are very likely to take shoe door whichever team doesn't. The Browns are picking at 33, which is the first pick of the second round. The Giants are picking up one spot. After that. I think you'll see one of those teams, whichever one doesn't get a quarterback, wind up moving into the first round. Maybe it's to pick 19 to Tampa or 20 to Denver to try to secure Jackson Dart and also to get that fifth year in the NFL. There's a fifth year option for the first round players. So you want to get that for that extra year of security as an organization.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, in the McShay report, a very excellent newsletter that everybody should subscribe to, pops right into your it's like I woke up this morning, 7:00, looking at Techs, Celtics all of a sudden got sold. Then your newsletter came. I'm like, what a great morning. I haven't even had coffee yet. You have the Giants trading up to 19 for Dart. You fake trade 34 and 65 and a 26 third rounder, the Bucks for pick number 19. So in that scenario, the two quarterbacks go 1, 2. They take Hunter third and I want to talk about that in a second. And then move up and take dart. And now they're like, we've got dart, we've got neighbors. Yo, Travis Hunter, who knows, maybe he'll play both sides of the ball. And all of a sudden now there's energy with the Giants.

[Todd McShay]

Absolutely. Let's bring it back to the top four. Right. It's a puzzle.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Todd McShay]

And we know one. We've got one of the four pieces of the puzzle with those four picks. I feel very strongly like we've got it planted in there. Right. So now figuring out the other three, it's almost like the rest of the draft starts at pick five.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Todd McShay]

Like Mason Graham and Tyler Warren and the running backs and all this. But the first four picks, it's like, how does this work? Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, and let me stop you one second there.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I refuse to read another mock draft that doesn't have those four going in some order. I still see drafts from like good places where they're like number four, Patriots Will Campbell and then Jacksonville takes Abdul Carter at 5. And I'm like, I promise you that's not happening.

[Todd McShay]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

If Abdul Carter isn't for they're taking Abdul Carter and I put it in.

[Todd McShay]

There because I wound up with Abdul Carter in the newsletter in the mock draft 2.0, I put Abdul Carter in there. But I'm very, very clear to My friends here in New England, like, don't. Don't get overly excited because a lot has to. A lot has to happen.

[Bill Simmons]

So don't buy the jersey yet. Tell my buddy jbug, don't buy it yet. Wait till, like, end of April.

[Todd McShay]

But if Shador goes two or three, you can. You can buy two jerseys and get rid of one of them because it's going to be Hunter or Carter, period.

[Bill Simmons]

But Hunter makes a whiff more sense for the Giants. But I thought you laid it out correctly. It makes a little more sense. But if they took Carter, that's. It's not like, that's stupid. They would just have an amazing defensive line.

[Todd McShay]

I think they've prepared like most good organizations do. And I'm not saying the Giants have been, but. But organizations are in free agency, are trying to free themselves up to take the best player in the draft. The Giants obviously have cave on Thibodeau and Brian Burns at edge. So you look at it and say it's not a huge Neville. Who cares? Like, when you get a player like that at the second most important position, you take him. And so if. If it, if it goes where Shador is number two, they have their choice. And so that's a good position to be in. But what if Abdul goes. What if Abdul goes one or two or what? Abdul goes two.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Todd McShay]

And they're sitting there three, and Hunter's the only guy. Or if Hunter goes to and then Abdul sitting there, they've got to make sure that they're covered. They sign resigned areas. Slayton at wide receiver, they. Paulson Adibo at cornerback. So they're covered. But they're talking about excellence versus just solid players. And so.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you put. You put him and neighbors together, just from an athlete standpoint.

[Todd McShay]

Yes. And now you. Now you have two neighbors.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Todd McShay]

And then the opportunity to go get a Jackson dart with that, as you had mentioned. So there's a lot of ways this can play out. But for New England, the only thing you really truly have to pray for is that Shador goes number two or three, because then you get either the best or the second best player in this entire draft falling to you at 4. And that doesn't happen very often.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Otherwise you're looking at a trade back. And in a trade back, I don't know who's trading up and what you're getting. I mean, my. I told you my dream trade would be the jets move up to four Pats, get Garrett Wilson, Pats, give up their second round pick. So it's basically seven and 39 for, you know, for like, whatever. The Pats end up with seven and Garrett Wilson in the deal, and I'm like, I'd sign up for that. Why would the jets do that? I have no idea. But that's my Jets.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah, that's where you lose me. I mean. Yeah, you had me on the show.

[Bill Simmons]

No, I had to. Yeah, I had, but I. Yeah, I can't. Listen, I can't apologize for my dreams.

[Todd McShay]

No, not at all.

[Bill Simmons]

But the thing with the Pats is I'm not. I'm not a big draft for need guy. When you're not one guy away from winning the super bowl, this pat's thing's gonna be like a three year, you know, completely. Like, they don't need to be like, we need a left tackle because that way we'll go 8 and 9 next year. Like, they just need. They need awesome players, and it really doesn't matter what position they are.

[Todd McShay]

Well, the problem is, though, if you're New England, if Shador doesn't go right, let's say. Let's say Cleveland in the Giants pass, and it goes Abdul, Abdul Carter 2, Hunter 3, or vice versa, then it's then. Now you're. You're in.

[Bill Simmons]

Remember I said you're in member range.

[Todd McShay]

Yes. And Membo's right tackle, taking him three.

[Bill Simmons]

Four spots too high. You kind of have to do it right.

[Todd McShay]

Membo's the right tackle in college. And can he kick to the left side? Are they comfortable with that? And Will Campbell's a pure left tackle, but he's got 32 and a half inch arm length. And that's concerning when you're using a top 10 pick. You just want it to be clean. And so. And then you got Jalen Walker from Georgia, who would do great things. Edge rusher, right edge rusher, who would do great things in Mike Vrabel's defense. But again, you're talking about elite. And no matter what the draft, Travis Hunter, Abdul Carter are elite. They're in that top tier to then, like, it could be one of like six or seven guys with very similar grades. And now, now we are focusing more on the need.

[Bill Simmons]

No, it's. It's Lombardi's old thing about blue chippers. We call them red chippers. And then the guys below that. But you. The teams that usually are around the super bowl, sniffing around, you look, and they have five, six, seven, eight blue chippers. Yes. The Pats only have Gonzalez and Drake May right now, plus the nose tackle. They got from the Eagles.

[Todd McShay]

What's your blood pressure going to be like when Cleveland and the Giants come up to you know to make their like during that 20.

[Bill Simmons]

Well don't you think we'll know. We'll know. We'll know with Cleveland and Sanders. Right. Like that that's not going to leak out.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Probably a lot of people with interest in that.

[Todd McShay]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Don't you think?

[Todd McShay]

Probably. Probably. But still like until you hear the name you're the only thing that worries.

[Bill Simmons]

Me is are the Browns and I would do this if I ran a team like do you pretend you're drafting Sanders because you want to see if the Giants are going to flip out and maybe offer you something to flip picks with you and you wanted Abdul Carter all on. Yeah.

[Todd McShay]

Of course you do.

[Bill Simmons]

I always feel like I'm just going to represent that I'm going to potentially.

[Todd McShay]

The Giants would know unless you're a team behind trying to get the Giants would know if you're willing to give up that pick. You're not. You're not taking them.

[Bill Simmons]

But they could say if you don't swap picks with us we have somebody that's coming in hard.

[Todd McShay]

That's the play. We might surprise team the Saints, whoever. Yeah. Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

And then. And then you have the Giants are now trying to use all their intel like find out from our guy in the jets how real this is and that's what makes the draft so much fun. You're trying you're basically all playing poker with each other. But it's some of the worst poker players who ever lived.

[Todd McShay]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

So you the biggest Questions are Carter versus the other than QBs, Carter versus Hunter just who has more value and that really seems like whoever just needs whatever they do more. But they every they're pretty equal. You have Carter above Hunter but not by it.

[Todd McShay]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Todd McShay]

It's like basically identical. The tricky part for Hunter is what's the plan. Right. And for a team like New England I've got to believe it's you don't have Drake may and say yeah we just drafted this guy for overall generational talent. He's going to be a nickel corner as a rookie and eventually our starting corner. You might get 20 plays with him on offense. It's just not going to happen. So everyone is talking about the moonlighting where you'd like to play him at corner because that's the harder position in terms of developing and the technique and being part of part of 11 there whereas wide receivers a little bit more ISO 1. It's kind of like an NBA thing, you know.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Todd McShay]

A lot of one on one stuff for New England. I can't imagine that would be the case. I think it would be. You're a full time receiver. We've got. Our biggest asset in this entire organization is Drake May. And so we've got it. We've got to assist that.

[Bill Simmons]

And this is us, our best chance to get a number one receiver because we struck out trying to get all these different guys. Now you're looking at Stefan Diggs and Brandon Iuk and people are coming off major injuries. It gets a little. And it's a receiver draft that sucks.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah. So it depends on the team. But I'll say this. I think Travis Hunter is more advanced as a wide receiver right now. I think Travis Hunter can be Garrett Wilson and with maybe like a touch more juice after the catch. Like so I would have no problem with him being a 50 snap a game offensive player. And 25, you know, third downs, red zone, that kind of stuff on defense if you can, if you can manage all that.

[Bill Simmons]

It sounds like such a fun wrinkle for whoever gets him where if you play him at receiver but he's also like your dime back and it's just like he's in now. Oh my God. He picked one off like just.

[Todd McShay]

It's kind of like Dion. Remember when Dion would come on the field to return a punch or kick?

[Bill Simmons]

Do you remember like or when he would line up at receiver? It was like so exciting. It's like oh my God, are they going to throw it to him? Right. So that would be cool. This tournament season, FanDuel has given you the power to take control of your bets. Introducing the bet back token. The ultimate game changer that lets you bail on any bet that's not going your way by turning it into bonus bets. It's simple. One of your bets is not heading in the right direction in the game. Go to your my bet section, tap the token, get your stake back immediately in bonus bets. Just like that Right now for the attorney fanduel is giving all customers a bet back token. It's just a shame the Mavericks couldn't have gotten this for lulukatrade. Just head over to fanduel.com BS to grab your bet back token a day only on America's number one sportsbook. You must be 21 + in President in select states or 18 + in President in D.C. in required refund issued as a non withdrawable bonus bets that expire seven days after receipt. Max refund $5 unless otherwise specified. Restrictions apply, including token expiration. See [e-mail] Game Prom. Call 100 Gambler or visit RGB. This episode is brought to you by Audi, the all new, fully electric Audi Q6E Tron. A huge leap forward featuring effortless power, serious acceleration, and the most advanced tech of any Audi ever. Experience technology that puts you center stage with a panoramic digital stage plus an optional screen for front seat passengers. That sounds fun. Perfect for watching the latest sports documentary. Maybe I made it. The Q6E Tron is not just a new EV. It's a new way to experience driving. Learn [e-mail] always pay careful attention to the road. Do not drive while distracted. Then the draft really starts at five.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And you had Mason Graham going to the Jags and mock draft 2.0.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. The running backs are fascinating to me too, though.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. So I was going to say that the Boise State kid at six to the Raiders, but then you also love Hampton and we could have two running backs in the top 12. Even though one of the only things we've learned about the draft is don't take running backs that high.

[Todd McShay]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

It's. It's a disposable position. Like, I was looking at the 2016 draft in the NFL. Don't ask why. And like, everybody in that draft seems so old now. Like, Zeke elliott's in it. 2016 draft is like, not that long ago. Like, Jaylen Brown was in the 2016 draft and he's just hitting the prime of his career. And Zeke Elliott seems like he's 48. So you think about that with running backs and it's like, all right, so you're. I'm going to draft somebody that I have for six years. I get Mason Graham, he might play till he's 36. You might. He might have two giant contracts.

[Todd McShay]

I just like Cam Hayward's, what, 36 now, so.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So if you're taking a running back, that guy that high, you better think it's like, this is Saquon, Barkley, Robinson.

[Todd McShay]

For each of those teams. You look at the Raiders and some of their other position, like wide receiver. There's no receiver to draft that high. Some of the other position, cornerback, like John A. Baron from Texas. But it's not like we're not talking about, you know, one of those, like, elite, elite corners. You look at what Pete Carroll has had and he's not necessarily, you know, going to be the. Depends on what his role winds up being. But Tom Brady is going to play a big part in all this too. But from a, from the standpoint of how they want to build it, you want to have a great defense. They want to recapture some of the Legion of Doom stuff. They want to have a, you know, a running back like a Marshawn lynch, who, who. Yeah, a big banger. Protect the ball, let the defense take care of a lot of the business on the field. And that's what Jinty is in terms of an every down back. He like the missed tackles forced and, and like he's just, he's a special back so that it makes sense for that organization and for that pick where they are. Because it's not like they're passing on this elite pass rusher or corner or wide receiver that they, that they shouldn't for a running back. And then for Chicago, they handle their business so well in free agency. Yeah, three offensive linemen, they're protecting their quarterback. They, they could go tackle with that spot if Will Campbell's still there. But I also, I have concerns enough with drafting a 32 and a half inch arm tackle in the top 10. And if we bring in a running back to go with Deandre Swift, how much more are we protecting our quarterback by having two backs? And so if one goes down, we still have a top shelf back. If both are in there, they're keeping each other fresh. We can run the football. We can take some pressure. I don't know. And we saw what Ben Johnson did with Jameer Gibbs and how quickly that that offense went from, you know, 90 to 100 with that the one player really.

[Bill Simmons]

So Will Campbell. If Will Campbell had 34 inch arms, he'd be the fourth pick in the draft.

[Todd McShay]

Could be, yeah. That crazy. There's only three starting tackles in the league at the end of the year with sub 33 inch arms. So you're, you're playing it. It's kind of. Parcells used to say we, we don't want a roster full of exceptions, you know, so that, that part's concerning.

[Bill Simmons]

If you're a gm, would you ever take a running back in the top 12?

[Todd McShay]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think I would either, especially.

[Todd McShay]

Not this year when I'm looking at guys like Quinshon Judkins from Ohio State and Cam Scatter. Boo. Who's I take his tape I liked even more than I thought after watching the awesome things he did this season.

[Bill Simmons]

That's my dream scenario for the third round for the Pats.

[Todd McShay]

I don't think he's going to get I don't know he's going to get there. He might not, but. But even if not, you got RJ Harvey from ucf, you've got DJ Giddens from Kansas City.

[Bill Simmons]

But you know this though, when there's too many guys start dropping because nobody ends up taking like even think about last year with the wide receivers that got so stupid and the Pats ended up with the 10th guy in the first 35 picks who was a receiver.

[Todd McShay]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, I, I think there's a. They know all of a sudden Cooper goes to the Eagles at 39, he's the third best defensive back on the board. I don't know, I just feel like when there's a glut, it really fucks things up.

[Todd McShay]

And so. And sometimes though, when you look at it and say, well, I, I can get those guys later, sometimes it's like hold, hold, you know, and then all of a sudden one goes and there will be this, this run. But I think everyone's going to kind of wait to see where the dominoes start to fall before they jump in because no one wants to draft a, no one wants to draft a running back over some of these other premium positions. Even if you're talking about pick 40, they'd rather wait.

[Bill Simmons]

But I would say the, the Gibbs and the success Detroit had with him as a weapon would make people think like ah, maybe in the 12 to 15 range. I always look with the draft, you know, and I'm start. I'm already starting to think about NFL over unders and the win totals and can somebody get like when the Eagles got Jalen Carter that year, it's like that's that getting that guy at nine, Jesus. Like that, that might affect. And when you look at the teams that are picking the first 15.

[Todd McShay]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

The one that jumped out to me was the team you mentioned, the Bears. And I have no idea if they're going to be good and they're in a brutal division and who knows with Caleb, but they spent a lot of money. They have the QB on the rookie scale and then if they just crushed the 10th pick somehow and got somebody awesome, then you have to start thinking like, ah, look at this like that Tyler Warren, the tight end, I don't know where he's going to go. He could go five, he could go 12, but like if they got him at 10, that's somebody that could play right away and be, you know, potentially like an impact dude right away. So that was the team I was looking at. And then the only other one Was. Was Atlanta. Just because I think Atlanta with Pennix and they have some talent. The division sucks. Like, if they are able to nail that pick, that could be a good one too.

[Todd McShay]

Going back to the Bears, it's kind of what I said earlier. Like the good teams, they plug all the holes so that they can pick the best player available. They do have a luxury pick. And you say, well, how can the Bears have a luxury pick? Well, that would be to a certain degree a luxury pick, but it fits what they want to do. Yeah, but the other part of it is Maybe you say a 10 and you draft an offensive tackle or maybe you draft an edge rusher like a Mike Kell Williams from Georgia. Yeah, because they are picking it. I've got it right here. 30, 39 and 41 in the second round.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Todd McShay]

And so if I, I love Omarion Hampton from UNC at running back, but what if I just take a stab at one of these pass rushers and look at what, like the Eagles.

[Bill Simmons]

What if I load up on my D. Yeah.

[Todd McShay]

Load up on my D. Go get Cam Scatterboo. Go get Quinn. Sean Judkins, one of Those guys at 39, I can still draft an offensive lineman or defensive player with that 41st pick. So there's different ways to look at all of this. And that's why I think it's going to be fascinating. We're going to see at least two running backs in the first round. I think three. I don't know that we're going to see two in the top 10.

[Bill Simmons]

But we can't believe that, you know, that's. What with T Mac, I wonder, like with. This is the reverse of a glut when there's nobody at a position. He's the only probably first down, first round graded wide receiver. He's one of the only two that you could even see going in there. And somebody just needs a receiver. And you get people in our office like, ah, fuck it, we need a receiver. And all of a sudden he's going 11th, you know, because we see that version of the draft too. I just, wow, you're taking him here.

[Todd McShay]

I think everyone wants to be so quick to look at the highlights and the spectacular plays. And they are spectacular. And then they want to look at his size and then they want to look at the report from Schultz. Was it that where he ran a 4, 4, 8? I talked to some scouts. They had closer to 4, 4, 5 somewhere in that range. Regardless, I, I don't see the dog in him and I don't see the refinement. And Drake London wasn't overly refined. He needed a year before he could be a thousand plus yard receiver.

[Bill Simmons]

But.

[Todd McShay]

But that's the comp. Right. Tall, just acrobatic type of guy. But they're. Yes, the shades of. But they're not, they're not the same player. So.

[Bill Simmons]

But does somebody look better if there's not. If there's not a lot of competition in a draft and then they start to look like the hottest girl at the bar?

[Todd McShay]

Absolutely. And he will go. I mean, he could go as high as Dallas at 12, let's say. But I, I had him going later in the first round. I had him going to the, to the Ravens kind of at that point, best player available. They could use another receiver.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Todd McShay]

Probably go somewhere in between that range when it's all said and done. But I'm betting on Matthew golden from Texas if you need a receiver. Like, that's why I get.

[Bill Simmons]

So you have two. Okay, I've got two.

[Todd McShay]

And then Mecca Buca could be the third that sneaks in from Ohio State. We'll see how he runs it as pro day, but he would be the third that I think has a good chance to go.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, two more questions.

[Todd McShay]

Let me give you another name real quick.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Todd McShay]

If you're not getting the receiver, that first pick at 38 for New England, Jaden Higgins from Iowa State, do a little work on him.

[Bill Simmons]

I've watched some YouTube on him.

[Todd McShay]

They're looking for. They're looking for a feel a little.

[Bill Simmons]

Burned after poke last year in the, in the 30s with the receiver. I'm, I'm, I'm hurt. My credit's up.

[Todd McShay]

I know. But I'm just saying he, he's a name that fits what they're looking for.

[Bill Simmons]

Second to last question. Who is the. Holy shit. This guy's going here. Top 15 guy. If you had to guess the guy who just goes 10, 11 spots higher than you ever could imagine last year would have been Bo Nix. Like, if we were talking about that draft, five weeks for the draft, like, and you said Bo Nix is going to go 12, I would have been like, what? That's insane. He's not going 12. Who is the. That's insane guy?

[Todd McShay]

I think Jackson Dart could be. I'm just looking at it right now.

[Bill Simmons]

Is there a weird left tackle, like maybe on paper guy that we're not. That could be a late, like, member already.

[Todd McShay]

I'll give you a guy. Everyone coming out of the combine. Nicki Minwari, right. From South Carolina, really good player. Yeah, I don't think an elite player yet. I think he's still getting there. I think you used in the right scheme. I'd love to see him it with. I would say trying to think of Seattle would be a perfect spot. Right. McDonald, the way he, he what he did. Baltimore, Hamilton. I could see that being a really good marriage. But Eamon Warri was like almost 6 4, 220 pounds. His combination of like size 40 time, which is a 44 flat and vertical broad jump, it had never been done in the history of the combat. Like he's that special of an athlete. It was awesome to watch. I still think the other safety who ran after him and ran a pedestrian time and didn't jump like him and I think Malachi Starks from Georgia could wind up being a top 15 pick ahead of Eamon Warren. I think that would surprise people right now.

[Bill Simmons]

Last question. Rosillo stretches for a half hour, goes out to Manhattan and tries to run the 40. But he's stretched, he's limber and he's ready and we have scouts there and a stopwatch. What is Priscilla running right now in the 40?

[Todd McShay]

We haven't talked about this publicly, but what. There's no better place to do it. I texted Rasul the other day with the old, the old line of. Of the town, the movie, you know.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Todd McShay]

I can't tell you what we're gonna do. You can't, you can't, you know, you can't.

[Bill Simmons]

This car are we taking?

[Todd McShay]

And I said I, I, my. Your answer needs to be who's. Whose car are we going to take?

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Todd McShay]

And that was in regards to. I wanted, I want to take over his house for the third day of the draft and do a live stream from there. And we're going to do it.

[Bill Simmons]

Sounds great.

[Todd McShay]

So we're announcing that right now without permission, but I figured, yeah, who's going to yell at me?

[Bill Simmons]

You?

[Todd McShay]

Right. But I would love to do that as part of the day three of the draft to get Priscilla to run. I'm going to guess.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean he's really, he's got a lot of muscle right now, which I think would hurt for the speed, but it also may help maybe he's in great shape. I don't know.

[Todd McShay]

Four, nine, three.

[Bill Simmons]

493, yes. So you're under five.

[Todd McShay]

He's a friend.

[Bill Simmons]

That's fair. That was really, really nice of you.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah, I thought so.

[Bill Simmons]

So publicly you'll go 4, 9, 3.

[Todd McShay]

I. I would be more interested in like the 3 cone or the short shuttle, the lateral agility with all that weightlifting. I just can't see that. That ending. Well, what.

[Bill Simmons]

What weightlifting? Out of all those things they do in that, what would he crush?

[Todd McShay]

The bench press.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, the bench. So huge bench press. That's what the teams are talking about after, like, Jesus benched 5:80.

[Todd McShay]

But I don't see him as a fullback. So I'm trying to figure out where. Where we're going to roll him up.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, you. You seem like a. Like a. What was that guy in the Niners? You sec.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Like a guy Belichick would have taken in 2007. Just like I want him for special teamer effort. Like his attitude.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah, Kind of like that celebrity basketball game he played. And I'll never forget that.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, he's still mad about it. He'll talk about it all the time. All right, McShay. Subscribe to his newsletter. It's great. Listen to the McShay Show. Also great. You can find that on YouTube as well. Great to see you as always.

[Todd McShay]

All right, you too, bud.

[Bill Simmons]

This episode is brought to you by VRBO Private vacation Rentals. With vrbo, you always get the whole house so you and your fellow fans can cheer on your team in peace. What's worse than watching a game with somebody who's not rooting for the same team? You're rooting for nothing. But that's why if you book a vacation house with vrbo, you know all the people in your house, they'll be friends, they'll be family. Ideally, they'll be the ones who also root for my teams. Plan a winning vacation. Make it a vrbo. This episode is brought to you by Mint Mobile. Why you can always dream about winning big with the lotto. There's stuff you can do right now to get more money in your pocket. Who doesn't love more money? I remember in the late 90s, I had my own website. I was making money from that. I was also bartending. I was waitering, and I still was scrambling. And I started writing for some wrestling magazines for a few months. That's the thing. You gotta keep the side hustles going. You gotta make extra money any way you can. Another great way to save money. Switch your wireless carrier to Mint a Mobile Premium wireless plan starting 15 bucks a month. All their plans come with unlimited talk and text on the nation's largest 5G network. You can even bring your own phone if you'd like your money. Mint Mobile is for you. Shop [e-mail] bill that's mintmobile.com bill upfront payment of $45 for a 3 month 5 gigabyte plan required equivalent to $50 a month new customer offer for first 3 months only. Then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. Chris Mannix is here. You can read him on Sports Illustrated. You can listen to his podcast. What's the podcast called? Open Floor.

[Chris Mannix]

Still open floor. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Open Floor. Was that, where was that on the title list as you were coming up with title names? Is it the top one? Were like two taken? Titles are so hard now.

[Chris Mannix]

Yeah, I think my this was back like I started that podcast before I left for Yahoo. So like it was back then. Let's just call it basketball or something like that.

[Bill Simmons]

They're like, no, gotta keep going. Speaking of basketball, an eight episode HBO drama could be written about the Celtic sale where we found out today $6.1 million to somebody that 12 hours ago nobody knew who he was. I mean probably some rich people knew who he was. People knew he was the final bidder. But now Bill Chisum is going to be the next owner of the Boston Celtics. He paid a record price. It was not an accident. Where Washington, the Commanders went for 6.05, Celtics go for 6. 1. I have a million thoughts, but what was your immediate reaction to the price?

[Chris Mannix]

Astonished. I didn't believe they would get over six. Look, that's a record, that's a huge number regardless. But the fact that you're just selling the team and you're not selling an arena, that is a huge variable in all this. Like when Matt Ishbia bought Phoenix for a 4 billion valuation. He was getting the arena with it. He was getting whatever it's worth, a WNBA team with it. You're just getting the Boston Celtics here. And yeah, it's an iconic franchise, but it's a franchise that is cost a lot of money, is set to have the highest payroll ever next year. You're taking on something with a lot of bills. So I guess my first reaction was bravo to H. Irving, Grouse Beck and the lawyers that he hired to sell this team. Because I really believe that he got this, he got the absolute maximum value that is possible to extract from the Celtics at this point. So I give him. That was my first reaction, like, wow, they got a price that I didn't believe they were going to get.

[Bill Simmons]

My first reaction, because I love being right, was I was saying last summer that this was going to get to six. And that's what the NBA wanted. And guess what it got to six. I think that's. That was a huge thing for the NBA with the expansion coming. Six has to be the number. That's what we want. I think it was a big thing for the family, especially Irv, the 90 year old legend who was not going to have any sort of inside job. There's a whole Steve Pagluca, who's the number two owner of the Celtics right now, that everybody assumed he was going to get it. And I can't wait to dive into that piece with you. It was made clear from the beginning there's no inside job. This will go to the highest bidder. The most money wins this. And nobody really believed it, but that's how it played out. And it got to 6:1. And my guess is that the Pagduca group and maybe even one or two of the other ones got to the 6. The 0.1 is so fascinating to me. The point 1 sometimes this is how it goes. This is how Larry Ellison lost the warriors, where it's like, no, he had it, he had it, he had it. Then the other side I think went to. I forget what it was like 400, 360, whatever it was. And he's like, nope, that's my final offer. And he didn't get it. And over and over again, the guys that get these teams are the ones that are like, oh, you want to break the Washington record? All right, all right, point one, done. And that was it. That's how he got it. So the Steve Pagluga piece is incredible that he didn't get it and that he came really close. And he did a long post today that was posted on social media that was, I think, one of the strangest posts I've ever read from somebody who didn't own a team. I couldn't believe he did that.

[Chris Mannix]

Can I just. That I would call that corporate scorched earth, right? Like it's not scorched earth like Dan Gilbert on LeBron, but it's corporate scorched earth. Where I thought the most telling part of that was it five paragraph statement that he released was at the very end of. I think it was the first paragraph where he noted that he had put together a group of investors that were eager to continue to reinvest in the team. And I think the last sentence was luxury tax be damned. Like what Steve Pagliuca is doing there is. He is planting the seed to be like on the other side of future Celtic fan outrage. Because we all know there are some tough decisions that this ownership group is going to have to make in the next couple of years. Like Sam houser made, makes $10 million right now. In real dollars though, that's like 80 million he's making. He's costing this team. There are decisions that they're going to have to make. What Steve Bagliuca in my mind did with that statement was just put himself in a position where if this team does cut some corners over the next couple of years, lop off some salaries, he can sit there and be like, you know what? I would have done that I put together a group of guys that weren't going to do that. Like he set himself up. We can get into the dynamics there.

[Bill Simmons]

Of, oh, we're doing it right now.

[Chris Mannix]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

But like this is the number one thing I want to talk about.

[Chris Mannix]

Go ahead.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, it's just so you have these two guys. Wick's dad puts up the most money for the team. Wick's the one that's organizing the group. And it starts out, I think, with four people that put up the money. They, they get the price and then their job after they get the price is to then go buy, find a group of minority people to then take off, offload some of the money they just committed to. Which by the way, that's what Chisum's doing right now. He's trying to. He is. Now he's already put the feelers out. He's trying to put together a little syndicate to offload some of the money that he's already promised. So that's in motion now. So they get the four. But Pags was always was like Wick and he's the owner and the dad put up the most money. But also here's Pags and they've had this uneasy co owner alliance. But Wick was always the face of it and it was always a little awkward. And you could feel it when they were like a trophy, you know, and that's when Lazarine Edens had that too. Some of these co owner, like Goober and Lacov, same thing where it's like, it's my team, but you have to be here and you hold. Let's hold the trophy together. And it's always super awkward. And I don't know how great it was going by the end because I think when, when Pagluca tried to buy the Nets and I don't think Wick found out from Pagluca is my understanding. And I don't think it's been great since then. And I think the reverse of that was Pagluca found out that the Celtics were being sold the same way we all did. He was not tipped, he was not giving a heads up. So I don't think that relationship has been great for the last year. And this specifically the way he reacted to the sale tells me that this is, this is going to get ugly. And I have some reasons for why this got bad near the end. But what else have you heard on this?

[Chris Mannix]

I've seen it unfold over the last 20 years, and you can unequivocally say it was a lot stronger at the beginning than it was at the end. And some of that has everything to do with what you said there. Like, Pagliuka is in this kind of with his own cash to what, I don't know what the final percentage is that he owned of this group. I heard, heard around 8 or 9%, something in that ballpark. And he's looking at Whit Grouse back, who owns a lesser percent of the team, but is effectively H. Irving in all this. Like, he is the money guy. He gets to be the face of it. And you're right, there have been some moments over the last six, seven years as this team has ascended into conference finals, NBA Finals, ultimately championships, where, you know, they're not exactly pulling the trophy kind of away from each other, but you can see some of that tension between those two guys. And look, I, I, I don't know about you, but I had been hearing for months now that, you know, through Pagliuka, it's kind of telegraphing this to people in the NBA that he believed he was going to get it, like it eventually was going to play out, that he was going to get control of this team. It might take a little bit long, a little bit longer than people expected, but he was ultimately going to grab control of this team. And you can just tell from that statement that he's furious that he is completely bullshit right now that he is not going to be the majority owner of the Celtics.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, so I think he, from what I had heard, that he had the money to get to 5, which is where they were hoping it was going to be in the fives, because that's a realistic price for a franchise that doesn't have an arena. Yeah, the gross back side wanted more. They wanted more. They're pushing the number up. And I think one of the ways this really went sideways, there was a moment in this process where stuff was getting leaked out about the sale and there was an unflattering piece about that it came out and I Don't even know what Wick's exact stake is, but how small Wick stake allegedly was with the Celtics and they're shooting too high and there was stuff and I don't think that went great for Pegs and whether whatever he may have done or not done and maybe he did nothing. But I think there was a feeling that somebody was trying to neg the price and make it lower to try to make it. And I think you look at 90 year old Irv Grossbeck, who's one of the great business people of the last. Really respected, respected as a thinker and he's tutored a bunch of people and he's a mentor to a lot of people and he's just. He's rich for a reason. And I don't think it went over very well that stuff started coming out that they wanted too much for the team because ultimately who's saying that? It's either it's like the Fenway group, who I don't think ever was gonna try to do it anyway, or somebody that was already actively trying to buy the team. And there weren't a lot of people at that point. So I think from the moment that happened, when those stories came out, it started to get dicey. And there's a lot of people in the organization who are rooting for him to get it because he was stability. It's like if he comes in, everything will remain the same. And I think when that happened, people started getting nervous.

[Chris Mannix]

I would say to Bill, like there were people rooting for him to get it. I do think I was kind of.

[Bill Simmons]

Rooting for him too because I wanted thing I wanted things to stay somewhat the same.

[Chris Mannix]

I do think there are also people rooting for him not to get it though. Like, yeah, I think there was a faction there that didn't want to get it in part because all the stuff he's saying now, and I'm sure he would have said it once he. If he had gotten control of the team. And I'm not sure everybody believes him. Like, I don't know that everybody believes that he would be the guy to just pour money into this team to keep it a championship contender throughout the Tatum Brown era. Like they just didn't believe him. Like he's. He's got allies within the organization, but I think he also has people that are not as fond of him inside the organization. So I think it was kind of a mixed bag there. I also don't necessarily know because like there were. Even though there was kind of a Whittled down list of finalists. There were a lot of people trying to buy this team and trying to get into the Knicks for this team. And there were a lot. And I heard this through NBA, in the NBA, Stay connected to the sale process. And I was hearing through those sources, like, that people were kind of grumbling over, like, how are you asking for this when you're not giving us an arena? It's just the team and all the money we have to spend. So there was a lot of people frustrated with the price. And I think it's just as likely that some of that stuff about Wick leaked out from someone not named Steve Pagliuca as it was that it was.

[Bill Simmons]

That's why we don't. We don't know how it leaked out or what happened. But I think once it happened, it changed the tenor of this whole thing, where they were like, okay, fuck. Fuck all you people. Now we're going to get the price we want. And you mentioned there were a lot of people kicking the tires on was double figures. It got whittled down to five. Lori was in it, the Eagles owner, and then for whatever reason, dropped out right after the super bowl or before the super bowl, right around the Super Bowl, I think it was after. Who knows? But it went from five to four. And Chisum was the mystery guy to me. Even if you were Googling him today, there just isn't a lot of information about him. He's grew up on the North Shore, went to Dartmouth. His son plays soccer at Dartmouth and graduated 19. He's on this weird tech fund, hedge fund thing, and he's apparently a huge Celtics fan. And that's all we know. But this is why it's so amazing when somebody buys a team like the Celtics. You go from I could walk by you and have no idea who you are to now you're one of the kings of Boston. And I think that's. I think Wicks had a really hard time with that over the last year, knowing that there's some end game where when you're the owner of the Celtics, the room treats you a little differently than when you're not. And I think he's aware of that.

[Chris Mannix]

Which, you know, leads into this idea that he's going to be, you know, the governor of this team for the next three years, which I believe is going to be the case, because I believe it's going to be codified in the sale agreement. Like, this is not going to be kind of whatever handshake deal Mark Cuban had with you. Know Patrick Dumont and the Adelen family. Like, I think he have any deal. No, he didn't have any deal there. That's kind of what the problem was. Like, Cuban went into the sale thinking, all right, well, you know, I'm. They're going to let me do this. And all of a sudden, very quickly, it was determined that he wasn't. I do think even if it's nominal, we're going to get Wick Grosbeck as one of the front facing owners of this team for the next three years. Now, I think they're going to be problems with that because if you're the guy footing the bill for the franchise, you don't. You're not going to have key decisions being made by someone that's got one foot out the door. Like, I think that there are certainly potential problems with that. But I think, look, Wick, all along I've thought that Wick wanted to have his cake and eat it too. He would not be selling this team if he wasn't being forced to by his family. But because he was being forced to, he wanted to make sure that there was top dollar involved in the return and that he would get to hold on to his place atop of the totem pole as long as humanly possible. And it sure looks like right now that's what he's going to get. Like, I had some people texting me today basically saying, don't be surprised if you see Wick kind of take some of the money that he's going to get off this and try to get back into the ownership group as a minority owner slice of it, to stay. Stay kind of connected to this team. So I don't think, look, he's not going to be running the team forever. But I don't think Wick Grosbeck is going anywhere anytime soon.

[Bill Simmons]

So his statement, and it was funny because they released this statement from Boston Business Partners, which is the group that owns the team. Wick's the first quote in it. And he says that Chisholm asked me to run the team as CEO and governor for the first three years and stay on as his partner. Stay on as his partner, and I'm glad to do so. And then the next paragraph is a quote from Chisholm. I've never seen somebody buy a team and not be the first quote in the press release. Everybody was saying Wick was trying to do this, and it seems like he actually pulled it off. And you mentioned the Cuban piece. I never believed that as it was happening. It seemed inconceivable to me that somebody was gonna buy a sports team and then just let somebody who didn't know that. We just don't see that really happen ever. And the times we've seen it happen where like Pat Croce and the Sixers, you be the government. And then it would always go badly within a year. So it says three years. It doesn't mean it's going to be three years. So if I gave you like the fanduel over under and I gave you the two and a, like, like boxing two and a half rounds, is it? Would you go over under? If you gave me two and a half for the over under, I don't know what I'd bet.

[Chris Mannix]

I go under. I go under. I just think there's too many big decisions that are made by a team governor, like. And I think, you know, Chisholm and his ownership group is going to be the one to be the ones making that decision. Now maybe there's synergy between the two. Maybe there's no, no space between them, no room for daylight. They're all in lockstep. But the second they disagree on something, it's going to be Chiso that says, it's my team, do what you want. You want to stay in this capacity as a front facing owner, as the governor of the team, fine. But we're doing things my way. And I don't blame him. You're putting up a valuation of $6 billion.

[Bill Simmons]

Of course he should have that.

[Chris Mannix]

Absolutely.

[Bill Simmons]

So it's Chisholm.

[Chris Mannix]

Chisholm. Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

No, I don't know how are you saying it.

[Chris Mannix]

I've been.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm kind of saying a little about this guy. I don't even know how to pronounce this. Chisholm.

[Chris Mannix]

I'm kind of saying in a Massachusetts way though. Like we both kind of are there. Like, if I see that name, I call him Chisholm.

[Bill Simmons]

Can he put like a social media thing on and be like, here's how to pronounce my name. Please call me Bill. I refuse to believe his name's William. It's gotta be Bill. His son's name's Will, which tells me he's a Bill. So here's one of the many things that I don't get about this. For that kind of price. And you're not gonna, quote, unquote, be the governor for the first three years. I mean, now he's in his mid-50s. He graduated from Dartmouth in 91. So he's in this is prime NBA owner, NFL owner range. Like from mid-50s all the way through to mid-70s. A 20 year run. He's got the son. I have no idea if the son's going to be groomed to have a role with Pagluca. His son, I think, would have been a big part of it. We'll see with this. Same thing with. If Laurie had gotten it, I think his son would have been a big part of it. I just find it hard to believe you're going to buy this team, do the victory lap, do the press conference, figure out where your tickets are, have these huge decisions like, oh my God, if we get bounced in round two of the playoffs, we're losing a shitload of money on top of this $200 million luxury tax bill that's coming. Let me just turn over all the decision making to wic. That seems crazy and we haven't really seen it happen in anything else. So I'm like you, I'm watching it.

[Chris Mannix]

I'm skeptical. You just, again, there's too many personnel decisions, financial decisions to just fork over to somebody that's eventually going to sell you the rest of the team or whatever it is in a period of time. I think it can last for a year, a year and a half, maybe two years. But eventually something's going to come up to cause fissures between these two sides. There's just too much money at stake for, for me to believe that it's, it's going to be this lasting, fruitful relationship. Now I do think they'll build. Like, I don't know that the new ownership group really had much of a choice with all this. Like, I think it was presented this way. Like, all right, we'll say the team, but you gotta take all this with you. Like, if you don't take this, we'll go to option B. We have other offers on the table. Like you saw, it was the Globe story back in January, there's four finalists. Like, there were people that wanted this team and I'm sure that that Wick leveraged that and used that to his advantage. Say, all right, if you want to buy this team, you're going to put up the $6.1 billion valuation, but you're also going to agree to X, Y and Z. And that's, I think that's what they were kind of forced to stomach in order to gain control of this team.

[Bill Simmons]

So some of the questions that are left is was this the highest offer? Which I'm going to assume it was.

[Chris Mannix]

Had to be.

[Bill Simmons]

But he's doing a lot of debt and all this stuff to. To. Whereas. Because I thought it was notable, Pagluca said, in this thing, we had a real offer. He sounded like a guy who didn't get the house he thought he was going to get. It's like, I had a real offer. I offered you all cash. I don't understand why he went with this other person and they didn't even offer you all cash. I don't understand the WIC part at all. And there's another piece of this, too. And I'm sure you've been around the team a lot. He's pretty devastated that they're selling in the first place. And he's talked about it pretty openly to people that ask him about it. And it's been a theme that has been going around the last couple months that his. His dad pushed for this. His dad wanted to do it for the estate planning, all the stuff they said. But I think especially with winning the title last year, the team being really good this year, I think Wick's had a really hard time with this. Even harder than maybe he's let on publicly. So do you think on now for two more years, but knowing that there's an end game, It's a really weird variable. I'm excited because he's a great owner and I hope he stays on and has the same. Same impact he had. But it's. It's weird. I feel bad. I. It's. It's weird to feel bad for somebody who just sold something for $6.1 billion, but I just don't think he wanted to sell. I don't. He.

[Chris Mannix]

He absolutely did not want to sell. This was his father, and we've covered this ad nauseam. But like his father, you know, recognizing his own mortality and figuring it's better to get your affairs in order with cash and not with the Boston Celtics. Like, that's right. That. That's why I wonder if over the next couple of years that Wick would come to appreciate the foresight of his father here. Like, I think he's getting out at exactly the right time. Like, think about what you accomplished in the 23 years you own the Boston Celtics. You won two championships. You put together two kind of mini dynasties. You know, the one from the 08 to 2012, whatever it was, Eric didn't achieve as much as it probably could have achieved if guys had stayed healthy. But you got that group together. You won a championship. You pulled off the greatest draft trade in whatever history by dealing all those picks and are getting all the picks. From the Nets and you rebuild the team that's been in two finals in three years and is well positioned to win another championship like you have. You got an A plus for ownership. And not only did you stuck with.

[Bill Simmons]

Tatum and Brown, you stuck with Tatum, Brown, and you became the best owner in Boston by 20, 20, 25, hands down.

[Chris Mannix]

Imagine if, like, John Henry had sold the team like, 10 years ago. Like, what would we be thinking about John Henry now? We rather than stick around and watch this team slowly deteriorate, which is going to eventually, right? Like, maybe it takes three years, maybe it takes five years, but it's eventually going to deteriorate to the point where we're looking this.

[Bill Simmons]

I was feeling good. What the hell.

[Chris Mannix]

We're going to be looking at them like we look at Milwaukee, though, at some point, right? Like, because they're just going to be so, you know, financially stretched that they've got to peel off some of these pieces and they're not going to be as good as they are right now. If you're with Grossbeck, like, you went out on top, and not only did you go out on top, you got the greatest exit strategy one could possibly have, which in the form of $6 billion, you can take your cut of and do something else. Like, you've proven you are a great NBA owner. You accomplished it. You can go on. You're still relatively young. I mean, you can go on and do the next thing if you really wanted to in professional sports.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I would say he was one of the most successful sports owners of this century.

[Chris Mannix]

I'd agree.

[Bill Simmons]

He took a team that was. Had really no assets other than Pierce and no cap space, and was able to rebuild it. It's the. The Pags piece of it.

[Chris Mannix]

He didn't love the.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, he didn't get the Nets he ran for governor. Didn't get that. And then everyone thought he was getting the Celtics, and he didn't get that he has the Italian soccer team. But I just. He's gotta be dying today. Just dying. But I think we all felt like this was probably coming. Like, I had hit a point where I didn't. I wouldn't have bet on him. And I think a lot of people. But the thing that I'm gonna be interested to see if it floats out over the next couple days is did he have any chance. Had this turned into a situation where they were like, we're just not selling to this guy?

[Chris Mannix]

That's the next story is, you know, we figure out, right, We. We talked about kind of relationship between Wick and Pags is not what it once was. Like, how strained have that relationship become? Had it reached a toxic level to the point where Wick Grosbeck was never going to be interested in selling the team to Pagnyuca? Because that. I don't know, man. You don't release a statement like that unless you're really livid at how the whole thing played out well.

[Bill Simmons]

And he released a statement right after they put the team for sale. Right. He got one up that day too, Pac.

[Chris Mannix]

I'm in. He was the first one to get in to all that. He, he, he made it clear from Jump that he wanted to be the guy that bought this team and took over its stewardship. And second, and within minutes after it being announced as being sold, he had a much stronger statement that went out there. Yeah, I think that that's the next thing to figure out is like, was this just about money? Like the fact the Celtics would get a record $6.1 billion price and hey, if you can't meet it, you can't meet it. Or was there more to it? Was there was the relationship between WIC and Pags something that affected the sale of the team?

[Bill Simmons]

I would say yes. This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. If you want to take control of your finances, Apple Card is where it starts. A credit card that can give you up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase. I have one. I can tell you this is true. I know and love Apple Card. So many places I can use it, especially during a busy time of year with football, basketball, the holidays all at once. I can use my Apple Card on tickets to a game, a gift from my dad, or even tickets as a gift for my dad. Plus, anytime there's a new Apple product, it's a lot easier. Apply for an Apple Card today. It's easy. Just go to the wallet app on your iPhone again. That easy. Subject to credit approval Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch terms and [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by Intuit TurboTax Taxes was waiting and wondering and worrying. It's almost like how in the old days of fantasy football we used to have to tally the scores on a Monday and then the commissioner would just mail them out to everybody and you would wait three days to see if you won. Those were the old ways of doing it. Now taxes is matching with a TurboTax Live full service expert who gives your taxes their undivided attention. They can file your taxes as soon as today. And while they do, you get real time updates on their progress. Meaning you can get back to what's important. The game. Now this is taxes intuit. TurboTax. Get an expert now on TurboTax. Com there's another piece with this expansion coming. That's now we've established a price. Six billion if you want. In 12 billion teams split it 30 ways, that's $400 million in cash. The owners get that. They don't share with the players. So Chisholm is buying in here at 6.1. He knows he's getting 400 billion back over the next couple years with this expansion fee. So it's really 5, 7 because that's what Cuban forfeited. That's what the gross specs forfeited. By selling now you get that money that maybe goes to luxury tax. I was trying to walk my dad off the ledge this morning because my dad's just like the Luca thing has spooked my dad. He was like, you can't say like the new Dallas owners, everything seemed great. And then they're trading luka Dutch for AD and a 1st and Max Christie. Like, yeah, I'm worried we're going to do something stupid now. I knew what we had with Wick and it's hard to talk someone off the ledge on that.

[Chris Mannix]

I'm more worried though, worries the wrong word. Like this year is going to play out how it's going to play out. I think the peeling off is going to be the Housers. It's going to be maybe even a Derrick White. You know, the guys that you have ready made replacements on the roster.

[Bill Simmons]

Derek, wait. What are you doing to me?

[Chris Mannix]

I don't, I don't. I'm not saying it's going to happen. I would say this though. I think that this team right now as currently constructed is only protected by championships. Like you win a championship this summer, ownership's going to bring it back, right? You're not going to blow up a team that has a championship.

[Bill Simmons]

You're not trading Jaylen Brown to the wherever.

[Chris Mannix]

No chance.

[Bill Simmons]

Or even two weeks after the title.

[Chris Mannix]

Or even someone like Derrick White. Like, I think Sam Houser's probably gone like the second he signed that contract. When you looked at what the other contracts are going to be like, I was like, there's no way Sam Houser.

[Bill Simmons]

See, I was more, I was more worried about Drew because he might be like low 30s and you know, the right team that wants a vet and you think you're the Celts and you're like, this is kind of a luxury to have a guy like this. Those are. It's. It's in that white holiday grouping that could be the first to go. Unless. I hope they keep Tatem and Brown together forever. And I love having those guys as a combo. And I think historically, they have a chance to be something really special. Just two guys playing together their whole careers, like that one draft apart, winning titles. Like, that's. How many pairings have done that, like, and how many pairings have fallen apart before they got to that point? So. But, you know, if you're paying $130 million a year for two guys, it's almost impossible.

[Chris Mannix]

Yeah, I. I don't. I'm not concerned that something like breaking them up is. Is on the table, but again, I do think that you're gonna see some guys whacked off the payroll. He saw Baylor go off the other night, like, Sam Houser be watching that, going, like, all right, I'm out the door.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, that's right.

[Chris Mannix]

If that guy can do what I was doing, like, I mean, that's. That to me, is. Is what you're looking at in. In the years to come. Now, if it gets bad, like, if they wind up getting beat in the second round, you know, for some reason, not this year, but, like, next year, then I could see it slowly start to be taken apart. But for right now, right, it's more about the ancillary pieces and what you can replace them with. Like, look, they drafted Baylor and, like, that was a surprise that they drafted him. They must have really believed in him because their payroll jumped a lot, you know, because of the guaranteed money that comes with a first round pick. They obviously believe in him and watch him go off against. Was it the Nets the other night, like, that Maybe they're justified in believing that. That he can be the cheap alternative to Sam Houser and be your seventh, eighth, ninth man coming off your bench.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the team's in a weird spot. They're stuck at second. You have Cleveland stuck at first and the Knicks probably stuck at third, and you have a month of the season left and all crappy teams for the most part on the schedule. And it's like a. Let's try to keep everyone healthy. Let's try to give these guys the minutes. They're doing this interesting strategy with the best guys. Tatum and Brown, though, either won't play them or they'll play them real minutes. They're not doing, like, play 25. Like, they're either playing them a playoff game minutes or not playing them, and they have the luxury to do whatever they want and try to get Shireman and people like that going. I think they're. I just think they're better than Knicks in that. If they lost to the Knicks, that would be catastrophic because they've had their number all year and everything's heading toward this Cleveland series. And Cleveland's just lost three games in a row, and for the first time, it's. The Russian is cut. It's just a little bit of. Of that. And I just think they feel like if everyone's healthy and KP's in there, we're going to be in the Finals again. It seems to be the attitude, right?

[Chris Mannix]

Yes, that's the attitude in Boston. I would also tell you that there's not overconfidence in the front office or the coaching staff in Cleveland either. Like, I just finished this story on kind of on Evan Mobley, but on a lot of bunch of young guys in the NBA that are potential difference makers in the playoffs. And talking to people in Cleveland, Even though they're 2 and 2 against the Celtics during the regular season and you know, they played really well in Boston coming back to win that game, they recognize that they have not yet gotten the Celtics best shot. Like, they haven't gotten that championship round haymaker to make a boxing analogy. And they know that's coming. They have to figure out how they. They don't know yet how they respond to something like that. And look, the. The guy that worries them the most is Christas Porzingis, because, look, they've got Evan Mobley, and Evan Mobley's been great all season long, but Evan Mobley does not play well against Christas Porzingis. You look at some of the numbers, they're not great. And that's a matchup that the Cavs know they have to dominate. Like, they. If it's a wash between Mobley and Porzingis, the Celtics win in six. Like, they have to completely dominate that matchup between Mobley and Porzingis, and I'm not sure they're capable of doing that. I think Porzingis, when he's right, both ends of the floor is great. So I think in Cleveland, they're happy with what they've done. No doubt about that. They've been surprised by a lot of things, but. But they're not sitting there going like, we're whatever, 10 games up on Boston were 10 games better. They know that a conference final series is a totally different animal.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, one other thing is they Kind of blew the home court against okc. If they are able to get to the finals, they just lost that in five days. They had a chance to basically control their own fate the whole way. And now OKC and, you know, they'll turn it on. So from a Celtic standpoint, that's potentially looming down the road, um, I, I love the way Tatum's playing and, and you know, for me it's, I just want to know who's on the team in round two. Is KP there? Am I, am I reading stories from people like you with like kp, hopefully in game three, he'll be back. Like, if we're going down that road, I think it's gonna be really hard to win.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And then the west, who the f knows beyond okc? I've changed my mind 20 times in the last week even since we did the Sunday pot. Like, I, I don't know what to expect in the west. So we'll see what happens.

[Chris Mannix]

Can I just, just to put a button on the, the, the, the, the sale and the team Al Horford thing is the first big test, right? Like, Al Horford is. His contract's up, right, the end of this year. Like, he's still invaluable, right? Like the way he's playing, you got to bring him back. Like, how much are they willing to spend? Is, is it a no brainer? Bring him back at a two year deal at kind of similar money as he made last time around, which is going to cost you a ton of money as well. Like that. That to me, is the first test of how much this ownership group is willing to spend on this team. Because he's going to cost you something in real money over the course of a new deal.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, and there's been, if you look at the history of the team, there's been some Al Horford moments over the years where most of the time they've let the guy go and kept their fingers crossed. In this case, you could make a case he's the most beloved Celtic teammate that we've seen. I was trying to think, I was talking to somebody about this, about, is anybody more loved by the people that play with him and coach him than Al Horford? Like, that Laker game was so fascinating when the Lakers were going at him and he started talking shit and Tatum was talking shit, and apparently there was just a lot of shit talking on both sides. They kept going at Al, he's talking shit. And when he came out of that game, the bench like, went like crazy. They were so fired. They just absolutely love him. And I think that would be a really tough one to leave. That's even. That's not James Posey. We won a title with you. Oh, it would suck if you left. This is like, he's in the fabric. Tatum and Brown grew up with the dude, you know, so that you're right. That's probably the first big test. My feeling is if you spend that amount of money on a team and you want to impress people in the city you grew up with, you're probably going to spend money the first couple years. But we've seen these new owners come in, and they're absolutely nuts. Here are my ideas. We're going to do this. We're going to zag when everybody's zigging and it's like, oh, boy, here we go.

[Chris Mannix]

They're still doing it. They're still doing it. Like, Matt Ishbia did that ridiculous ESPN interview where he's talking about, we're building around Devin Booker, and he's the guy we're going to keep. Not to take this a different direction, but they. Devin Booker is too old to win a championship in Phoenix. Simple as that. Like, he's. He's not too old to win a championship or lead a team to a championship. He's too old to lead that team to a championship.

[Bill Simmons]

Because it would be five years from now.

[Chris Mannix]

Yes, because he's eight. Look, he's aged. Next season's age, 29 season, next year. Like, now's the time you did. Like, now is the time to sell the Celtics as a franchise, to kind of bring these two together. Now is the time to sell the team. Now is the time to deal Devin Booker. If Houston comes to call in with all your draft capital, offering it back. If Oklahoma City calls and says, here's three or four players plus three or four draft picks, you are crazy if you're Phoenix and not doing that. That's some of the new owner craziness that's still out there in the league.

[Bill Simmons]

You think there's a new arena in 10 years?

[Chris Mannix]

Yes. Yes. Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

I do, too. I don't see. We should have talked about that sooner. I don't see how you spend this kind of money. But then also don't buy. Build an arena.

[Chris Mannix]

There's also places you can build it. Like the seaports become cool again. Like, it wasn't when, you know, I was younger and probably when you were younger back there, but now it's become like this cool place opposite Southie and there's room to do stuff down there.

[Bill Simmons]

There's stuff near 93 that, that the place they were looking at for the Olympics. If you go back and read the Olympic stories from 2014, there's a specific spot like past where. Where Emerson plays soccer and lacrosse. Like you when you're driving by going toward the Cape, there's this whole section that is the spot that they're going to make like the hub of the Olympics. And I feel like that. I think it's called like the Railyard or something. I think that's where the arena would go. That's really the only open spot that's in the city in the right way. Or it could be Seaport. But I mean Seaport's already really hard to get to. Back and forth now for putting 19,000 fans there will be a little rough.

[Chris Mannix]

They'd have to reinvent the T there and, and figure out, you know, new stops that go into that area.

[Bill Simmons]

I would put it right on the other side of the hill in Charlestown. We're going right in the town. Like 12,000 seat arena. Let's fucking go. I mean that would be taking our mojo back.

[Chris Mannix]

I would love to see it, but there's just no way you're not buying this team and like renegotiating your lease for TD Garden, which already by NBA arena standards is old. It's bottom third in the league in terms of.

[Bill Simmons]

Of, of. Well, there's another. There's another possibility of it too where you can. There's a second part of this where you try to buy the Jacob side and the Bruins in the arena and try to own everything. Because if they leave that arena, the Bruins are screwed. Right? They had this 35 year old. When did. Was. When was Fleet Center?

[Chris Mannix]

95. 95 I think it was. So it was 30 years of ball boy with the team. Was that.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, Diane ice.

[Chris Mannix]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

So 30 year old arena and then you're going to lose your basketball team in like 2005 years. I don't see it.

[Chris Mannix]

There's not enough U2 concerts you could put in there that would.

[Bill Simmons]

Mannix, before we go, where am I with Bacoli?

[Chris Mannix]

Oh, he's like May 3rd. May 3rd.

[Bill Simmons]

You told me not to bet on him.

[Chris Mannix]

I did.

[Bill Simmons]

You told me it was a money grab.

[Chris Mannix]

I did.

[Bill Simmons]

You told me he was flying crusk crossed the world and had 14 hours before the fight and was just going to try to throw some bombs and it probably wasn't looking great, but he was getting paid more than he's ever been paid in his life. So I didn't sell any of my stock on your advice. But I'm still a little worried because he got his ass kicked.

[Chris Mannix]

I'd be less worried because it wasn't like a eight round ass kicking. He took a shot the top of the head that completely discombobulated him. And you saw his trainer, Billy Nelson. I mean, I have Olympic gymnasts have not gone up on an apron faster than Billy Nelson got up there to throw the towel in right there. Like, he was.

[Bill Simmons]

He was ready early stoppages ever.

[Chris Mannix]

He was ready to throw that in because his guy did his job. When that first bell rang, Martin Bucoli had done his job. It was hilarious covering that out there because, like, Billy Nelson flew from Scotland, where he lives and usually trains Bacoli over to Riyadh. But Bacoli had to fly, like premium economy through a connection because what I was told, like, the Congo doesn't allow private jets in on, like, short notice. You can't just fly a private jet in and out of the Congo. So he had to fly, like Ethiopian Air, a connection through Ethiopia to get there. He got in literally 2:00 in the morning. There was no chance on God's earth.

[Bill Simmons]

The fight, the day before the fight, two in the morning. The.

[Chris Mannix]

The day of the fight, like two in the morning. The day of the fight, Saturday morning, 2am he got in. And then of course, they have him doing like three interviews when he gets there. Like, let the fucking guy go to bed and try to get some rest before he's got to report to work in 12 hours. I'm not. I wouldn't sell your stock. He's fighting on May 3rd on this Canelo undercard over in Riyadh. He's fighting Fa a Jagba again. They're keeping that fight there. He's fully capable of beating FA A Jagba. He didn't take really. I mean, he took one good shot. He flew over from the Congo and took one good shot, got out, got a paycheck, which I thought I heard was about 3 million bucks, and, you know, was able to go back to work the next day. So I. I'd still keep my Martin Bacoli stock. He's going to weigh in the 2002 for this next fight. He's probably going to beat a Jogba. I think we're once again talking about him second half of this year.

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't tell you, but I put a small bet on because. I know, but I can't not bet Bacoli. KO it's like a blind bet. I'm just betting it every time I had to do it. So Canelo May 3rd, are we excited for that fight?

[Chris Mannix]

I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

That was your answer. When do we get Canelo Crawford?

[Chris Mannix]

September. So Canelo Crawford, like the worst kept secret in boxing is that Canelo Crawford is happening in September. It's going to be promoted by this new Dana White, Saudi Arabia, Nick Khan promotional company and it's going to be on Netflix. Like that's going to be a Netflix event in September and there'll be some big names on that. This, this whole card on May is entirely designed to get Canelo that fourth title back. William Skull has that belt, so you get in that belt pack, you can say Canelo is the undisputed champ. Going up against Crawford, the two time undisputed champ, it just helps sell the fight. Like that's really what that card is for. It is going to be in primetime though. I think it's interesting. Like they're gonna.

[Bill Simmons]

On a Saturday night.

[Chris Mannix]

Yeah, they're gonna fight and riyadh at like 9:00am is what I heard. Or 9 to 10:00 in the morning to make it prime time over in.

[Bill Simmons]

The U.S. so wow.

[Chris Mannix]

It will be a good time for U.S. audiences to watch. Maybe not so much for the guys fighting on the undercard who might be fighting at 5am but it'll be interesting.

[Bill Simmons]

That that timing and the NFL will have started at that point in college football will be going. So it's gonna be an insane weekend. Well, we'll see how much boxing Netflix does. So Netflix, they're definitely intrigued that that Tyson fight I think was a jaw dropper for them. And it seems like they're going to be dabbling a little bit more.

[Chris Mannix]

So their plan, what I was told, was to do like one big event a quarter. Like that's the mindset of Netflix. Like they're not going to try to be dazed or what HBO was. And two fights every weekend, that's not their, their bag. But they are doing this Katie Taylor, Amanda Serrano trilogy fight at MSG, that's July 11th. That's going to be on Netflix. Like I said, I think the 100% sure at this point that the Canelo Crawford fight is going to be on Netflix. They're also after Anthony Joshua, Tyson Fury, like that's a fight they want to put on, which is such a huge global event. They'd love to get their hands on that for either end of this year or early next year. Whenever Tyson Fury decides to rejoin the the boxing ranks. So one per quarter right now is my understanding of what Netflix wants to do.

[Bill Simmons]

So what's the fight of the year if you had to bet? If you have to bet on one.

[Chris Mannix]

Like the fight, Canelo Crawford's not the.

[Bill Simmons]

Fight of the year. No. Just what's going to be 2025's fight of the year when it's December 31st.

[Chris Mannix]

So Canelo Crawford's not going to be it because I think it was too, too big, too strong, too good. Well, I'm dying to see a Devin Haney Ryan Garcia rematch. Dying like so those two guys like that weekend I'm going to be in New York working the three fight card that's in Times Square. That's going to be on Disown. That's and Ryan's top of the bill. Devin's at the co main event. Both those guys run against opponents that they can and should beat and that would set up the rematch between them. And like given what happened in the.

[Bill Simmons]

First round this time we're not cheating the rematch. This time no cheating allowed rematch.

[Chris Mannix]

This time we're using multiple Ryan Garcia because Ryan Garcia believes that he was screwed by the testing agency. Yeah, that caught him. He's using two now. He's using the one that, that did it the first time because he has to and he's using another one to test him just to get verified information that he that he believes. But that's a big one, man. That's two 25 year old, 6 year.

[Bill Simmons]

Old guys with a lot of bad blood. Like probably the most bad blood that we have.

[Chris Mannix]

Press tour is going to be awesome. Like I'm all in for that.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, Mannix, great to see you.

[Chris Mannix]

You too.

[Bill Simmons]

Thank you.

[Chris Mannix]

You got it.

[Bill Simmons]

All right. Thanks to McShay. Thanks to Mannix. Thanks to Surudi and Gahao and Kyle. As always, I hope your March Madness brackets go great. Don't forget to check out good. Hang with Amy Poehler two episodes up, rewatchables, Days of Thunder, Prestige tv. If you miss White Lotus, that's up there. And then Celtic City episode four coming Monday night on hbo. And Max, Larry Bird shows up and guess what? He was really good at basketball. So that, that's what we got. I will see you on Sunday. Must be 21 plus in President in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + in President D.C. gambling problem. Call 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com call 1-887-897-777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit Gambling Helpline massachusetts.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York.