The Luke Kornet Game and Tatum’s Road Back With David Jacoby. Plus, WNBA Commissioner Cathy Engelbert

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Bill Simmons Podcast
Episode: The Luke Cornet Game and Tatum’s Road Back With David Jacoby. Plus, WNBA Commissioner Cathy Engelbert
Release Date: May 15, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of The Bill Simmons Podcast, host Bill Simmons engages in a dynamic discussion with co-host David Jacoby, focusing on the intense Celtics vs. Knicks playoff series. The conversation delves into pivotal moments, player performances, and the broader implications of recent events. Additionally, the podcast features an insightful interview with WNBA Commissioner Cathy Engelbert, shedding light on the league's growth and future prospects.

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Celtics vs. Knicks Playoff Series

Timestamp: [04:49] - [35:23]

Game Five Analysis and Tatum’s Injury

The episode opens with Bill Simmons and David Jacoby dissecting the recent Game Five between the Boston Celtics and the New York Knicks. A significant highlight is the unfortunate injury sustained by Jayson Tatum, which has major implications for the Celtics’ playoff run.

• David Jacoby expresses frustration over the game’s outcome, stating, “This really could have gone two ways and I'm not really happy the way it went” ([04:54]).

• Bill Simmons reflects on the crowd dynamics and the impact of Tatum’s injury: “From the moment Tatum's tragic injury happened... the Celtics rose to the challenge” ([07:00]).

Luke Cornet's Performance

The unexpected performance of Knicks’ Luke Cornet is a focal point, earning the episode its title.

• Jacoby criticizes the decision to bring Cornet into the game, mentioning, “He blocked seven shots is shocking” ([14:00]).

• Bill Simmons highlights Cornet’s defensive prowess: “Luke Cornet was getting fouls where he was challenging people that were driving to the basket...” ([22:21]).

Defensive Strategies and Player Impact

The hosts delve into the defensive adjustments made by both teams and the resulting player performances.

• Bill Simmons praises the Celtics’ adaptability: “They just took the rebounding more seriously. Robinson was really good” ([23:52]).

• Jacoby discusses Jalen Brunson’s evolving role: “Brunson being out for that long gave Bridges and OG time to score” ([17:47]).

Team Dynamics and Future Implications

The conversation explores the potential outcomes of the series and the broader implications for both teams.

• Simmons muses on the Celtics’ future without Tatum: “They could patch it together with the infrastructure” ([21:26]).

• Jacoby remains optimistic about the Knicks, predicting a series win despite recent setbacks: “I think the Knicks will eventually win the series” ([05:25]).

Notable Quotes:

• David Jacoby: “He's got a real like mental problem. He's got like a mental block with this.” ([14:32])

• Bill Simmons: “This is what a great MVP race was because both of these guys are incredible.” ([64:21])

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WNBA Growth and Future with Commissioner Cathy Engelbert

Timestamp: [72:XX] - [113:22]

League Expansion and Media Strategies

Bill Simmons interviews WNBA Commissioner Cathy Engelbert, discussing the league's remarkable growth and strategic initiatives aimed at expanding its footprint.

• Cathy Engelbert shares the excitement around new expansion teams: “We have a new San Francisco expansion team... Portland and Toronto coming down the road next year” ([73:14]).

• Simmons draws parallels to the NBA’s expansion trends: “The price is already gone up two and a half times at a year and a half” ([82:36]).

Capital Investment and Branding

The conversation highlights the significant investments made into the WNBA, enhancing player development, marketing, and overall league operations.

• Engelbert explains the capital raise strategy: “We opened it up to a broader group of Diverse investors... It served us well” ([91:44]).

• Simmons questions the sustainability of rapid expansion: “How do you know what the right number is?” ([80:24]).

Player Development and Star Impact

The discussion emphasizes the role of star players like Caitlin Clark in elevating the league's visibility and marketability.

• Engelbert acknowledges Clark’s impact: “Caitlin Clark brought tens of millions of new viewers into the WNBA” ([78:29]).

• Simmons praises Clark as a generational talent: “She's the most popular under 30 team sport athlete we have now” ([105:37]).

Media Deals and Future Negotiations

Engelbert outlines the WNBA’s evolving media presence and the upcoming Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) negotiations.

• Engelbert details the historic media deal: “Largest media deal in the history of women's sports... aiming for 260 AAV” ([93:46]).

• Simmons inquires about maintaining league integrity amidst growth: “How do you make sure you're not perceived as being too big yet?” ([95:46]).

Notable Quotes:

• Cathy Engelbert: “We have a lot of parity in the league this year... six, seven teams are really going to compete hard for the championship” ([78:18]).

• Bill Simmons: “Caitlin Clark is a generational talent... she's the most popular athlete in America” ([105:37]).

• Cathy Engelbert: “We've hired engineers, hired social media... now we have 25 people driving growth at the league level” ([91:44]).

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Personal Reflections and Anecdotes

Timestamp: [50:03] - [71:05]

Bill Simmons and David Jacoby share personal experiences related to recent games and the evolving nature of fan engagement, particularly highlighting the shift towards content creation and social media presence during games.

• Jacoby recounts attending a watch party and observing the focus on social media over enjoying the live experience: “It's a commentary on the content creation generation” ([59:41]).

• Simmons expresses frustration with fans distracted by recording rather than watching: “How can you not focus on this guy... painting a masterpiece” ([61:07]).

Notable Quotes:

• David Jacoby: “We're putting out Instagram stories. It literally disappears in 24 hours” ([62:07]).

• Bill Simmons: “Who’s watching this video in 40 years? Like, your kids are like, oh, yeah, I'm still deleting Dad's iCloud” ([62:07]).

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Conclusion and Takeaways

The episode wraps up with a blend of sports analysis and personal anecdotes, providing listeners with a comprehensive overview of the current state of the Celtics-Knicks series and the burgeoning growth of the WNBA. Bill Simmons emphasizes the fragility and excitement of sports "windows," while Cathy Engelbert offers an optimistic view of the WNBA’s future through strategic expansion and robust media partnerships.

Key Takeaways:

• Celtics-Knicks Series: The injury to Jayson Tatum is a pivotal moment, altering the dynamics and increasing the Knicks' chances in the series.

• WNBA Growth: Under Cathy Engelbert’s leadership, the WNBA has experienced significant growth through strategic capital investments, player development, and expansive media deals.

• Fan Engagement: The shift towards content creation and social media during games presents both opportunities and challenges for enhancing the live sports experience.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• David Jacoby: “This really could have gone two ways and I'm not really happy the way it went” ([04:54]).

• Cathy Engelbert: “We are the longest tenured women's professional sports league in the US by double any other” ([74:04]).

• Bill Simmons: “Caitlin Clark is a generational talent... she's the most popular under 30 team sport athlete we have” ([105:37]).

• Cathy Engelbert: “We're just looking at building the right global footprint first” ([88:18]).

• Bill Simmons: “It's just a different time... it's like when you go to a concert and people are just like filming the concert” ([60:51]).

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This episode offers a deep dive into both the immediate thrills and setbacks of the NBA playoffs and a forward-looking perspective on the WNBA’s promising trajectory. Whether you're a die-hard sports fan or new to the conversations, Bill Simmons ensures a rich and engaging experience highlighting the passion and complexities of professional basketball.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

You're listening and watching the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel, our friends America's number one sportsbook, and they've made it easier than ever to get in on the action during an NBA playoff game, even after a tip off. Just look for the live SGP tab on the FanDuel Sportsbook app and build your own bet slip. Then sit back, relax, track the outcome of your parlay right in the app. And if you don't already have it, download the FanDuel app today to make every moment more the Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end episode for additional details. Must be 21 + on President Select States gaming problem, call 100 GAMBLER visit rg-help.com Coming up, the Celtics are still alive and we're going to talk some wnba. Yeah, how about that podcast? It's all next. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. Summer's almost here and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. What do we mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parmesan delivered. A cabana? That's a no. A banana? That's a yes. A nice tan? Sorry, no. But a box fan? Happily, yes. A day of sunshine? Nope. A box of fine wines? Yeah, Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost almost anything delivered with UberEats. Order now. Alcohol in select markets. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where I have a new rewatchables coming next Monday because it's still big ass 70s month. We did Death Wish this week. Next week we're doing Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Steven Spielberg 1977. Huge movie. Awesome movie. It's gonna be me and Sean and Chris Ryan. We also did a little thing for Ringer Movies about the Superman trailer. If you subscribe to The Ringer Movies YouTube channel, you can subscribe to the Bill Simmons YouTube channel as well, where I'm gonna be going live tomorrow night Thursday with Rob Mahoney after OKC Denver Game six. Four podcasts this week. It's that time of year, a lot of basketball going on. We didn't even get to talk with Dave Jacoby, who's coming up in a second about Where's Minnesota? Because that series was over the moment Steph Curry got hurt. Jimmy Butler at this point in his career was not able to win Golden State a game, no shots fired at Jimmy Butler. I just think he's at a slightly different stage of his career and Minnesota is really, really good. So we'll talk about that. We'll talk about Minnesota versus whoever wins tomorrow night with Rob Mahoney. Tomorrow night we'll see if the joker has one more great performance in him. Stay tuned. So that's tomorrow night. Today's podcast talking to Dave Jacoby about Celtics Knicks Game five, the Tatum injury, the fallout. Some some thoughts after having a day to sit with it and the Knicks, the spot they're in and a whole bunch of topics that came out of tonight, the Lou Cornet game. And then WNBA commissioner Kathy Engelbert came on to talk about the upcoming season where the league is at big picture. And I just wanted to pick her brain because the league is at a fascinating moment right now as it heads into almost its third decade. So that was a really fun conversation. We taped that on Monday. And before we get to the podcast, just wanted to remind everybody on FanDuel. I'm doing Taylor Fade every week and we're going to be doing it for Thursday nights OKC Denver game and that is going to be a prop with Jokic. Points, rebounds. I'm going over. I would advise you to tell me, but you can go check it out. They add a profit boost to it though, so go check out the FanDuel Sportsbook app before the game on Thursday. Anyway, big podcast coming first, our friends from Projet. All right, recording this part of the podcast a little before 7 pt. Once upon a time you knew him as the czar of reality TV and he ran all of the audio and video for Grantland, a job that many people have tried to take credit for. But I can promise you he did it 100% himself. Now he is the host of the Mismatch along with Chris Vernon, among many other things. My guy Dave Jacoby is here. Die easy Knicks fan. I did book this before we knew the results of game five. Just for the record.

[Dave Jacoby]

You're an asshole. It's, it's.

[Bill Simmons]

I.

[Dave Jacoby]

This really could have gone two ways and I'm not really happy the way it went, to be honest with you. You know, I'm really not happy with the way it went.

[Bill Simmons]

What did you think was going to happen? Yeah, I mean, I guarantee you didn't think we would be calling this on the podcast title for this episode the Luke Cornet Game, but that was, that was the outcome.

[Dave Jacoby]

Ex Nick, by the way, Westchester Nick Legend, right? Yes. I remember hearing from Nick fans be like, there's this guy in Westchester, he's like 7ft tall, he hits threes and he's got ball stills on like used.

[Bill Simmons]

To be as garlic was the three point shooting.

[Dave Jacoby]

Now he doesn't even shoot threes now. Yeah, yeah. But no, I do think the Knicks will eventually win the series, but I had a feeling they would lose this one and now it just. I don't feel good about anything right now because now it's just like you have to win game seven. My game group chat, Game six. You're right, my Knicks group chat has gone from we need to trade for Giannis right around game three to who do you think would be a better matchup in the finals? The Thunder or the Wolves? To must win game six in the Garden.

[Bill Simmons]

There was no, no, like four hours there of. Are you guys worried about the Pacers at all? And then people reassuring each other. No, no, we're not worried about them at all.

[Dave Jacoby]

No, none of that.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. Cause the Pacers are really good.

[Dave Jacoby]

Oh, the Pacers. Yes, the Pacers are really good. And also the, you know, I revisited the Pacers Knicks series from last season and I had to like sort of freshen up on it because I remember game seven was such a big deal and everyone was hurt and OG tried to play just like Brunson's hurt and no one was there. But like game one and game two, kind of like this series that came down to the end. And remember Carlisle got kicked out of a game. I forgot about that. And he's like, small market teams deserve fouls too. There's some chippiness. There was some real like stuff there. It was a good search.

[Bill Simmons]

It's going to be worse if, if it's Pacers, Knicks this year, it'll be even worse. And let's be honest, it's probably going to be Pacers.

[Dave Jacoby]

It's going to be Pacers.

[Bill Simmons]

I'll just tell you my mindset. First of all, I was hearing my dad was there and it was a late or Ivan crowd. Cause it was a 7 o' clock start plus a shitload of traffic. And there were some Knick fans because I think some Celtic fans after the Tatum injury were like putting the tickets on so you could hear the Knicks things. They show Chalamet at one point courtside and I. And it turned into a not in our house. We can't let this happen. Every time you heard the Knicks three or some sort of good Knicks play in the first, you know, 40 minutes of the game first, like real time, 40 minutes. And you could hear the loud Knicks fans. And it was like, this is. Would be really awful if the Knicks, like, win this. Their fans are celebrating. It cuts to the end, the wide shot. Only the Knicks fans are left. Chalamet is pointing at people. I was like, I just, we gotta win this. It turned into Hoosiers, and the Celtics rose to the challenge. Jacoby.

[Dave Jacoby]

They did. It was. It was a good Celtics game. I mean, we'll talk about the basketball stuff in a second. But I. I do want to say I heard that Chalamet listens to the podcast, and I'm very excited about that. I'm excited that he's supporting the Knicks. Bringing the Kardashian element wasn't my favorite thing to happen in game four.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Dave Jacoby]

Like, I'm just gonna say, like, I love that you're here, Timothy Chalamet, I love you. Support the Knicks. When he went to road games and sat next to Stiller behind the Pistons bench in Detroit, I was like, all right, I love this. You know, and the gay acted like a real fan. I was like, yes. I was like, I love this. But it was when you bring a girlfriend, that's fine, but your girlfriend's sister, and then it becomes about them and their outfits and, you know, it's going to sort of like make the press. I didn't love the Kardashian element that we saw.

[Bill Simmons]

You remember, once upon a time, our guy, Ben Affleck, 03 range Red Sox, hadn't won a World Series in over eight decades.

[Dave Jacoby]

And.

[Bill Simmons]

And he brought JLo, Yankee fan, grew up in the Bronx, literally. Called Jenny from the Bronx and brought her into the good Red Sox seats for Red Sox Yankees. And it was like, that was when the arm turned on Affleck for a little bit. Yes.

[Dave Jacoby]

It's like, it's your buddy that has a girlfriend who golfs. You know what I mean? It's like. It's like. It's like, oh, I'm so excited that your girlfriend golfs. Like, I'm sad that she's gonna be joining us, but it's going to change the vibe. That's sort of how I felt about the Kardashians being at the Knicks cage.

[Bill Simmons]

We're not going to have our buddy to have nine beers and he's throwing up behind the 10th hole and asking the caddy master for afterwards.

[Dave Jacoby]

We're going straight home.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah. It's just like, all right. Yeah. I didn't love the Kardashian of It. But like I will say, this is. The Celtics made appropriate adjustments and played good basketball tonight. And I love the way that they attacked the paint and just sort of like put the pressure on the Knicks. They did.

[Bill Simmons]

Whoa. I kept, you know, from. From the moment Tatum's tragic injury happened, when we found out the results. And then I got. Some people in my life are like, is there Ewing theory possibilities here? And just for the record, first of all, love Jason Tatum. Second of all, not eligible because they won the title with them last year. The whole point of the Ewing theory is the team never won the title. Best player gets hurt, and then the team rises to the occasion without him in some way. With that said, it did open the door for some stuff that has been pretty frustrating about this Celtics team where they ought to band together. They had to get a little more creative offensively. There was a lot more cutting, there was a lot more ball movement. And some of the stuff that would handicap this team in the past where it was either Tatum or Brown with the ball just dribbling, especially when they had a lead and the lead would start to fritter away and then it just turned into one on one basketball. That never happened in this game because the guards were more involved, Cornette was cutting. The passing was really good. Like, I. That was by far the best game they played in the playoffs, I think.

[Dave Jacoby]

I think so, too. And it did help that Derrick White hit like seven threes to start the game.

[Bill Simmons]

That always helps. Frame shooting out of Derek White's ass was a bonus. But the Knicks had Josh Hart made more threes in a half hour than he made all playoffs. It felt like.

[Dave Jacoby]

I will say that there is something to be said for you drive the car, I'll drive the car. You drive the car. I'll drive the car. But when you have. When you take the Tatum element out of the Celtics offense, it becomes a little bit more like, I'm driving the car and I'll dictate how things are going to go and I'm going to spread the ball around. It's not my turn, your turn, it's my turn. And then we're going to spread to role players. That's what the Knicks offense is with Brunson sort of at the helm. And I think that is what led to them playing this. This sort of. Sort of more democratic offense. And, you know, it also didn't.

[Bill Simmons]

I think that's the right word.

[Dave Jacoby]

Derrick White hit all up.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, well, they had to get more creative because Tatum becomes the security blanket that you can always rely on because he's, you know, can create a shot whenever he wants. But now, hey, Drew Holiday should probably post up a little bit more. Let's try a couple of those. Let's set picks for Derek White and Hat. So there was some stuff that was happening that was some really good basketball. I also think this version of the Knicks, I think they have some good one on one defenders, but as a team defense thing, this has been a problem for them all year. They're using. Gets it. They were attacking Towns. They got Towns into foul trouble then.

[Dave Jacoby]

No, no, that's not true. That's not true. That's not true.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, they did get Towns in the.

[Dave Jacoby]

They did not get Towns into foul trouble.

[Bill Simmons]

They did.

[Dave Jacoby]

Towns got himself into foul trouble too. What are you talking about? What are you talking about? Carl, did you see what Carl, the fouls on him like.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, they did a good job of having players with the basketball near Towns as he had spasms and ran into people.

[Dave Jacoby]

The first foul, he was setting a screen. And again, none of these fouls affect the play. Like none of them do. He's setting a screen and then like, it's an illegal screen. It wasn't even like around the ball. It wasn't even like the point of attack. And the second one, Porzingis is coming across the lane and he hits him like he's like a tight end checking a linebacker on the way. It's like, what are you doing? It's like, again, Carl, KP is not a threat. Like, why are you doing this in the middle of the lane? I don't understand these fouls. Then the third foul, he gets his shot blocked and then he grabs Eric Way and throws him out of the way because he's embarrassed he got his shot blocked. So when you say the Celtics put him in foul trouble, I say that is complete bullshit and not true. Carl Anthony Towns can't help himself, dude. He's got a real like mental problem. He's got like a mental block with this. And he goes through stretches where it seems like he's figured it out, but he hasn't. And I'm going to very quickly give you a quick analogy I gave on the mismatch, which was like, it's like a finance guy going to the strip club and going to the Champagne Room and getting roofied and spending $20,000 on his credit card and then waking up the next day and realizing it. And then around 4 o' clock that day, going back to the same strip club the next night. Like when Are you going to learn, dude? Like, when are you going to learn?

[Bill Simmons]

If he went back to the strip joint every night, five nights in a.

[Dave Jacoby]

Row is what Carl Anthony Towns did tonight.

[Bill Simmons]

His body was developing, developing a resistance to roofies. It was actually like not working as well against him because he kept going back.

[Dave Jacoby]

Carla D. Towns was getting fouls where he was challenging people that were driving to the basket, trying to score at the rim. I would be like, that's fine. But if you look at his fouls tonight, like the other one was under the hoop on a rebound. None of these are like on the ball plays at the rim, or none of them are even questionable.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I had some Knicks fans in my life who were, I won't name them, who were very upset about Tony Brothers in, in the third quarter just putting fouls on Brunson. I thought four of the five fouls were like no brainer. You had to calm down. The one where he, he fouled Derek White's elbow with his face. That's. I always have a problem with that call. Cause I'm not sure where your face is supposed to go if somebody's diving into you. But ironically, the person who benefits the most from that call and the flip side of it is Jalen Brunson. Cause he gets a lot of fouls that way where he just lurches into guys. And you know, your, your body can only do so many things when you're over six feet tall and standing up. The elbows coming at your face, it's probably going to hit your face. You can't like do the Matrix.

[Dave Jacoby]

Well, also Brent Brunson. And again, like, I'm a Knick fan, but I'm objective about basketball. He put his chin like on his shoulder, right? Like you're putting your chin right there.

[Bill Simmons]

You kind of the only one that I thought was the shaky call. So there's some big picture Celtic stuff. And then we could talk about the Knicks pieces. Actually, let's talk about the Knicks pieces first. Just to mix it up. So the Knicks hasn't been the most fun 21st century, right? And finally thing all of these different things have broken this year for them, including unfortunately for the Celtics and for the NBA. But this Tatum injury is obviously a huge competitive advantage for the Knicks. The seas have parted. They were plus 700 before the series. They stole a couple fourth quarters. I thought they played really well in the second half of the. Of. Of K. Game four deserve to win. They get this break with the Tatum injury. Now they're heading into the final Finals of the East. If they win this, they don't have to play Cleveland. They get to play Indiana and get revenge on them. So everything's aligning and then they blow this game. And now we're going to MSG on Friday. And there's a lot of DNA now swimming in the pool. There hasn't been a lot of happy memories the last 25 years. And I just wonder.

[Dave Jacoby]

You can't say DNA swimming in the pool and happy not go bad, bad places.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm sorry. My bad. I know that's. That was once a, a, a frequent porn search of yours. But. But yeah. So the Celtics achieved their goal. They protected home court Shalom wasn't pointing at Knicks fans after the game. And now there's pressure on the Knicks, who still have a better team, but at least now there's some pressure pushed the other way with that game seven in Boston looming. Right.

[Dave Jacoby]

Oh, I mean, I think the Knicks will win the series, but if, if I Do you think I'm going to sit here and not be doubtful and terrified of game six with OG Playing the way he did tonight and like, yeah, what's. He's. He's been up and down. There was the stretch when Brunson was hurt where Bridges and OG Were phenomenal. And it just felt like it like low key. Felt like Brunson being out for that long was actually great for the Knicks because it gave Bridges and O this time to score 20 points, 25 points, 30 points and be a focus of the offense that would help them when they, you know, re acclimated to the Brunson environment.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Dave Jacoby]

But right now it just doesn't feel like. Doesn't.

[Bill Simmons]

Well puts. He was awesome in game one. I thought he was the best player on the court.

[Dave Jacoby]

Oh yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And then both of the same. We haven't seen it the same way. There was a couple things. I thought the Celtics were doing a couple of things a little bit differently defensively. One is they just didn't. They were fine with Josh Hart taking threes till he made about five.

[Dave Jacoby]

He made.

[Bill Simmons]

Then, then, then they shifted their defense. But initially it was like, we're good with that. We're good with that. They really seems like they. They studied the tape of Bridges. What did Bridges end up with Today he was nine points. Today he's four for 14. He's got that weird. It's like the guy you play pickup with all the time where they have this one shot and then eventually you figure it out and you're like, why didn't I figure that out six months ago. He does this jump shot. It's like a hop step, 45 degree angle delivery shot. And White couldn't time it. And then finally this game, they started like timing the jumper a little bit better.

[Dave Jacoby]

What he does is whether he's moving to his right or left or he's squared up to the hoop. He squares his shoulders to the hoop and he puts his hands up like he's throwing a soccer throw in pass. So the ball and then he flicks his wrist to get it there. That's why he doesn't shoot threes that well.

[Bill Simmons]

But he always bends back. He would rather take a 10 foot shot than an 8 foot shot from the same place where his feet are at. He's always going backwards. And I think it was screwing up White. He couldn't gauge it.

[Dave Jacoby]

And if you're over 43, he shoots like a double dribble character. Like the ball goes up and his arms go up and then he releases the ball with his wrists only. And once you figure that out, I don't think anyone can figure it out. I'm honest with you. I think I thought that he played so well in the fourth quarter of game four that today he was just.

[Bill Simmons]

They were more aware of it. It didn't seem like they were surprised by his offense in this game. And then, you know, the other one was they were just really aggressive with Brunson and you know, they just, they fell asleep in game four. Like the reason he got going in the third quarter of game four is because their defense sucked. They fell asleep. They weren't. I mean, they lost him a couple times. They just didn't do a good job. They did a good job today. Yeah, and it helped that he got six fouls in 10 minutes.

[Dave Jacoby]

He didn't get going in game four. Like he was absolutely on fire and took over the game. I thought that Game 4 was one of my favorite basketball games I've ever seen. With Tatum and Brunson in the third quarter. Just exchanging those punches was just. It was one of my favorite basketball games I've ever seen. You know what I mean? Like, I like basketball before, I like the Knicks. Like, that was such a great game. And it's too bad that Tatum was gone from it. But here's the question I have for you. There was a point in game two, I think it was the start of the second half when they just posted up Towns on the left block and he got in like that Carmelo spot, like 10, 12ft from the basket. And they were just, they were obviously doing it. Like they, he would throw it in, throw it out. They were just, they were obviously doing it and there's, there's no Celtic defender that can cover him with his back to the basket. 13ft from the basket and they just never go back to it.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know why isn't that the story of Towns's career though? It always seems like, like the Celtics guarded him with Drew Holiday a bunch of times today. And teams, teams just feel like they can get away with it because Towns is more comfortable 25ft from the basketball. But yeah, you're right, he torched Horford a couple times in game too.

[Dave Jacoby]

Horford, Towns, Brown, Tatum. It didn't. There's no one on the roster. Maybe this new Lou Cornette, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you know what's interesting about him? He's a streaky low post scorer. Usually people are streaky three point, but he gets in like these grooves on the low post. When you watch it, you're like, how does he not average 40 a game? And then he just won't shoot another eight footer for a month.

[Dave Jacoby]

But it felt like a running back that was getting five yards of carry. I think it was game two. I think, I'm pretty sure it was the third quarter, game two, where this went to it like three plays in a row. And I said to myself, why don't you just do this until they stop it? Just do this until they stop it and they never go back to it. And like the. Why don't we see Brunson Towns pick and rolls.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I'm looking at his shot chart. I mean he didn't take that many shots, but yeah, he only took two threes. He took a shot at the key.

[Dave Jacoby]

Because he can't stop fouling Bill. Look at his foul chart, dude, I'm telling you all this. Five fouls had nothing to with like affecting the play defensively. Nothing to do with it.

[Bill Simmons]

Missoula did two things tonight that the Celtic fans have been calling for for a while. One is he finally punted on Porzingis. Listen, Porzingis, huge part of last year's team. When he's healthy, he's a 20 point score. He's unicorny. I.

[Dave Jacoby]

We concede he's corny.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, he's unicorny too. And in this series and in this whole playoffs and really since March, he's been, he's been zombie Porzingis. There's. He's been poor zombie. There's no other way to put it. And he's such a liability. They're playing these two big lineups that they're just getting annihilated on in the previous games. And then finally today they punted on it. They started the second half with Cornette, which is what they should have done. The irony of the Cornette piece, he's been a really good bench guy all year. He's been good in the home games. The crowd really likes him. I'm just telling you, I love Cornette. And they've played games, you know, they've been really careful because they kind of knew they were going to be the 2 seed for four months. And they've been. They would have games where they didn't play Tatum, they would have games where they didn't play Brown. And they had all these guys. These guys are all used to playing without one of the two stars. And Cornette was always like a big part of some of those games. So I, I can't say I was like shocked that he played that way. Seven blocks is shocking. But I was waiting for him to play more for a couple games. Now.

[Dave Jacoby]

What I love about Cornette is he's a very self aware basketball player. He never tries to do anything outside of his skill set. You'll never see him fucking dribble the ball, you know what I mean? You'll never see him pull up for three. Even though he came up as like a 40% three point shooter. Like he's just never doing anything that's outside of his role and his skill set. He just doesn't do it. He's not going to make negative plays. I'm not going to look it up, but I bet he has like four turnovers on the year, you know what I mean? He just does what he's supposed to do.

[Bill Simmons]

He knows his role well in this game. He helped with the rebounding, which was the other big thing that changed. They just took the rebounding more seriously. Robinson was really good. Again, I have a theory. Robinson, he's had stretches during his career where you're like, why isn't this guy the next Bill Russell? Why is it? Why aren't we talking about him like we talk about Russell, Chamberlain and Kareem. You'll catch him for four minutes and like this the best player of the NBA.

[Dave Jacoby]

Well, I watch a lot of Mitch Robinson. I'm not a huge fan. He can't catch number one. He cannot catch the ball number two. I will send you a link. There's a video of him playing like pickup against like regular humans. He looks like Kevin Durant, but taller and stronger. And I have a theory about Robinson. One of my favorite movies is the Prestige, right? You know the big act at the end where they're like how, like they're like, how do you, how do you do this? They're like, well, I've got like a drunken twin brother. There is another Mitch Robinson that they prestige onto the two Mitch Robinson, who else? He went six for six dude like he couldn't even hit the net. He couldn't even hit the net.

[Bill Simmons]

And they were all free throws that he was making the same way where they would hit the front of the rim, bounce over and go in like he was at a carnival.

[Dave Jacoby]

He prestige. They prestiged Mr. Robinson. Tonight there are two twin Robinson.

[Bill Simmons]

Can't rule it out.

[Dave Jacoby]

I. I mean I've never seen. But I've never seen. I've only seen one Mitch Robinson at a time.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm still trying to figure out how shallow May got courtside.

[Dave Jacoby]

I have.

[Bill Simmons]

I have more stuff to talk about with this game, but we got to take a quick break. Hey, as you know, I like to create things. We worked with Fando on a new betting concept. We call it tail or fade. We've done it for a couple weeks in a row. We hit last week. I make a player prop pick. You either get to decide to back it, which is a tail, or go against it, which is a fade. But either way you get a 50% boost either on the over or the under. So if you check out FanDuel Sportsbook on Thursday for the OKC Denver game, what we did was we did Jokic points, rebounds, I think over 40 and a half. So if it's a combined thing gets to 41, you win the bet and you win your little 50% profit boost on that bet. I'm going over on my guy Jokic. If you want to tail me, join me. If you want to go against me, fade me. Whatever you want to do. I love when the customers ride with me. They won last week by the way. Can't wait to make fun of those who fade me in the so for. For Thursday. Jokic 40 and a half over. Go check it out. And by the way, go to FanDuel.com BS and you can download America's number one sportsbook. And you can bet on lots of stuff. Not just Taylor fading me, but you must be 21 + in President select states or 18 + in President DC. Opt in required bonus issued as non withdrawable profit boost tokens. Restrictions apply including any token expiration and max wager amount. See [e-mail], gamprom. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit RG Help. This episode is brought to you by Loom by Atlassian Some things are just unnecessary. We see players, I don't want to name them, but players who can't help getting a dumb flagrant, dumb foul, dumb technical at the worst possible times. And you bang your head, your hand against your head, and you go, why do they do that? Why is that so unnecessary? Why don't they get it at this point? Well, it's just as unnecessary as tedious business meetings. Good thing you can use Loom instead. Use Loom to simultaneously record both your screen and yourself to share a quick update, to provide feedback, to train a colleague, everything in between. Plus add Loom AI to your meetings. For instant written notes and recordings, try Loom right [e-mail] that is l o o m.com so obviously a pretty traumatic 48 hours for Celtic fans. Yesterday was just awful because there was no news at all. And even me, I couldn't. I knew it wasn't great, but nobody. I mean, they just shut down. They didn't say anything. And the reason they did it was because they went and they immediately put him into surgery. They just didn't want to say anything until they found out it was successful surgery. But the longer it went on, you know, by one o' clock in the afternoon, my time, I'm on threads like maybe it's not an Achilles, maybe. Maybe it's like he tore his plant, his plantar fasciitis muscle, whatever the fuck that thing is. Like, who knows, Maybe it wasn't. Or maybe it's worse. Maybe he tore his Achilles and like ankle ligaments and it was like this catastrophic. And your mind just starts racing. Then all of a sudden you find out what it is and start thinking big picture. I was googling all the, you know, all the different comebacks. Kobe was eight months, came back, then got hurt three weeks later, which is why I only played six games that year. Durant was longer, but everybody felt like Durant could have come back for the playoffs. It just didn't. But you start, your mind's just going everywhere and there's that Jalen Brown piece of maybe with all the money that this team is due, maybe they blow it up next year. Maybe this is the summer to trade Jaylen Brown. What's he worth? You start going down rat road. What would people get for him? Is it worth it to trade him? Or could he carry the torch for a year until Tatum comes back in February. It's really split what he's worth with the Celtic fans that watch him every day. Because the more you see somebody, they become like your spouse, where you start thinking of all this stuff like, ah, that drives me crazy when they do that. You stop seeing. You can't relate to that at all. I get it. But he was really good tonight. And to me, that's the reason not to trade him because I still feel like he's one of the 20 best guys in the league. What he did tonight is the case for like, don't blow it up. Maybe Tatum can be back in February. Maybe you only have to shave her on the salary sides. Maybe you're a 5, 6, 7 seed. Maybe Tatum rounds into shape until April. Maybe Jalen Brown can hold this fort with the infrastructure. Missoula. And the fact that the east is going to suck to me, this game is going to make me think of that this summer. What do you think?

[Dave Jacoby]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

I laid a lot on you there. Sorry I did this four minute first take intro.

[Dave Jacoby]

First of all, the people that are listening to the Bill Simmons podcast want to hear that, and I'm honored to be here to respond to it. And I will say that I also am prepared to ask you these questions. Yeah, I never really considered the Jalen Brown trade. I think you're too much in the weeds. I think the questions that need to be asked are, is Horford gone? Is Porzingis gone? Is White gone? Is Drew Holiday gone? Like, those four players are not going to be.

[Bill Simmons]

White's the only one who doesn't go. Wait, because White's contracts.

[Dave Jacoby]

Are you sure?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. For what his, for what his value is and his age and all the stuff he brings to the table, I think he's one of the 40 best guys in the league. If you're making a list like when I do Ringer Hundred, he's always in the 40 to 45 range for what he's making money wise, you have to keep him.

[Dave Jacoby]

Holiday's contract taking into account. When you take. Did you make that list? His contract take into account?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, his, his. He's under 30 million still.

[Dave Jacoby]

So here's my, here's my take on like the future of the Celtics is. I think that Porzingis is gone. Holiday's gone.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but Porzingis, they still have to get a contract back. It's not like they could just be like, here, take his contract.

[Dave Jacoby]

Ew.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, but you still have to get some sort of money back. You're not just wiping the slate you're getting. You're taking back, like, Rui Hachimora or.

[Dave Jacoby]

Whoever it is the PR people for the Celtics need to put out some sort of, like, Porzingis has this thing that's going to heal in two months, and his trade value is going to go up. But I will say this. I think it's a Peyton Pritchard play. I really think it's like. It's. It's. Pritchard is going to bridge this gap of scoring and playmaking and things that we lose with Tatum. He's that good. Like, I think next year becomes like, a Brown Pritchard. Yeah, it's going to be tough.

[Bill Simmons]

17 points at 30, 10 minutes.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, he's good.

[Bill Simmons]

But they could patch it together with the infrastructure, because this team plays really well together and they have a certain style slash system.

[Dave Jacoby]

You know, here's what I want to ask you that people want to hear. What do the Celtics look like next season?

[Bill Simmons]

I think either poor Horford, depending on if he wants to chase the title, or just stay in Boston. One of the most beloved Celtics teammates, slash veterans they've ever had in the history of the franchise. I'd be surprised if he was like, all right, I'll see you guys later. I'm going to play for Orlando. I think he's going to be 40 next year. I don't. You know, you don't want to start just chasing stuff. He already won the title last year. It's not like he needs a ring. But I think it's probably Porzingis or Drew. That would be. That. Those would be. It would be one of those two. And Drew probably has a little more value based on what's happened to Porzingis at this point. Now, his contract's not great. He's got three years left after this. But the type of guy, well, you try to do it. So you're trying to get somebody with less money that you're shaving. You know, if they shave $7 million off in a trade, it turns out it's like $70 million with all this repeater tax, all this. So that's, I think, what they would be trying to do. There's, like, bigger trades, if you wanted to go nuts, where it'd be like Jaylen Brown and Drew Holiday to Houston, and you get a bunch of stuff back, but you're taking $20 million less in salary and you're basically rebuilding while you're. I know, but that's. That's why that stuff's not going to happen. I'm just saying, like the big monster. If you were playing this as a video game and it wasn't human beings and real people, you'd be like, oh, I'll just do this and I'll just build the round table. But they're not doing that, especially the new owner. He's not going to want to come in. And I've blown stuff up to save money.

[Dave Jacoby]

Drew Holiday, 80 cents on the dollar. Porzingis 25 cents on the dollar.

[Bill Simmons]

Or it might even be as simple as Sam Houser gets traded this summer because a lot of teams could use a really good three point shooting. He's not making a shooter, he's not making a ton of money. And then you figure out in February where you are and whether you want to shave salary or not, because Porzingis has been expiring at that point. But I can't, I think the Celtics. I just can't believe we're having this conversation. It was inconceivable a week ago.

[Dave Jacoby]

It sucks. I mean, but, but they're going to win a lot of games in the Eastern Conference with notatum.

[Bill Simmons]

Jalen had 26 points, 12 assists and eight rebounds. And my fear for the game today was he can't dribble. And I just, I just thought the Knicks would be like smothering him and be like, this guy can't dribble, let's go get him. But he was pretty comfortable running the offense and, and I thought, I just thought he did a good job. I thought he was patient. He only took 17 shots. My fear was he was going to take like 30, but he didn't. And they were pretty democratic, as you said, with the, with the ball. So, you know, it's. The question is, was this a moral victory or something more? Did they figure out something in this game that they can take? So they figured out the cornet piece. Well, they figured out ball movement, the cornet piece, and just continue to hope Towns is a complete idiot.

[Dave Jacoby]

They figured out that Porzingis sucks and Towns can't stop fouling people. That's what they figured out like.

[Bill Simmons]

But you and I figured out Porzingis couldn't play in the series two games ago.

[Dave Jacoby]

Two games ago. I mean, has he had a good playoff game?

[Bill Simmons]

What's. No, he hasn't. The only time he's been good, there's been some decent defensive stuff where he's just had his arms up.

[Dave Jacoby]

But you mean the seven foot three guy put his arms in the air and that Was good.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes. But that did. I expect him to turn into Taco Fall. I did. I didn't realize that was going to be his new role on this team.

[Dave Jacoby]

Taco Winter, dude, he's Taco Winter.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, my God. This Jalen Brown piece, though, there's no way, right? Because I want Tatum and Brown to retire together. I don't want them to trade Jalen Brown.

[Dave Jacoby]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

And yet around the league, people are like, watch, Jalen's going to be the one who goes.

[Dave Jacoby]

It's.

[Bill Simmons]

They're going to blow it up. And I just, I don't see.

[Dave Jacoby]

That's not people around the league. That's people like us that talking to microphones. It's just like, fun to say, but why would they trade Jalen Brown? Jaylen Brown's going to be the engine that brings the train to the next station, to the next station, to the next station next year. And there's 82 stops. You know what I mean? Like, he is the engine of the train. He's going to drive it and sometimes it's going to be ugly and sometimes it's going to look great. But like, if you trade Jaylen Brown, who do you get back? That's going to be like your go to guy. It's going to be better than him. That's going to just like, I don't know. No. And he's on the same timeline as Tatum. You won a championship 11 months ago. They won the championship. There's a parade, you know, I'm well aware. Weeks ago.

[Bill Simmons]

Can I. Can I talk about Tatum's first eight seasons with you for a split second? Because I continue to think he's incredibly underrated. And it sadly took a major, major injury for people to go, oh, man, that guy was really good. This is too bad. I don't think anyone took more shit unnecessarily. All he did was get better every year and really give a shit.

[Dave Jacoby]

As long as you allow me to retort with how corny he is when you're done, go.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. There's been nine guys since the merger season who in their first eight seasons played over 20,000 minutes and scored 13,000 points or more. And then 3,000 rebounds or more and 2,000 assists or more. MJ, LeBron, Bird Barkley, KD Harden, Pierce Tatum and Mark Aguirre. Weirdly, there's been 14 guys ever in their first eight seasons who played 100 plus playoff games and scored at least 15 points a game in those games. Bird, Tatum, Duncan, Kobe Worthy, Kawhi Jalen, Magic Parker, Mikhail Pippen, Manu and Scott and Byron Scott. And there's been a hundred. There's been four guys who have played 100 playoff games in their first eight years and had 28 and four as their stats, 20 points a game, eight rebounds, four assists. LeBron, Wilt Bird, Elgin and Tatum. What was so interesting about his career from a historical standpoint was how much postseason mileage and success that he had. He has 72 playoff wins. He's just turned 27. It's so like, Jordan didn't have nearly that many playoff wins by the time he was 27. Like even, you know, LeBron didn't have a hundred wins by the time he was 27. So he was amassing this career that one of the best things about it was the durability and the fact that year after year he was playing into May and June potentially, and he was on a really good team in a good spot. And he was, I think, one of the three most durable guys of this century. Him and Giannis and LeBron where it almost seemed like an accident if they even like sprained their ankle.

[Dave Jacoby]

Him and LeBron. Him and LeBron.

[Bill Simmons]

Taking Giannis out of that, well, be Giannis had. He had one where he like fell and like broke bone in his back and, you know, but for the most part, playoff availability.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, I know what you mean.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah. And in a minute that's all gone. But I just, I just thought that first eight years he had was really crazy. I never thought about it until that injury.

[Dave Jacoby]

I will also say to be nice about Tatum, different running mates throughout the runs, right. There's like the Isaiah Thomas season. You know, there's a scary Terry season. There's just like a lot of different elements that he's always been the constant variable in the equation where every. Everything else sort of changed and he still had this consistent output. Another thing I'll say, but nice about Tatum. Not a lot of duds, you know, a lot of these star players and there's a couple duds out there. You're like, oh, yeah, like, remember game two of the second round series where he was like, went 4 for 25. Like, like he doesn't have those games. He has ups and downs, but he doesn't have like dud, dud games.

[Bill Simmons]

And he'll always bring defense and rebounding and he'll help the game in other ways even if his shot isn't going to.

[Dave Jacoby]

And the thing, as a non former Celtics fan, I will say I loved Larry Bird growing up. And here's the Question I have for you is why can't I connect to him as a person? Like, why do I think he's corny? Why do I think that he's inauthentic? I was reminded by co host of the Mismatch Verno when they won last year. There was that clip together of him sort of cosplaying all these other Kobe moments and Kevin Garnett moments. Like, why don't I connect to him as a person? I know nothing about his personality. Other sides from the fact that he has a son named Deuce, like, why do I think that he's corny and inauthentic? I'm asking you that question not because I'm trying to accuse him of something or insult him. I just want you to put me on the couch and tell me why I feel that way.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, so I would argue the Celtic fans feel the opposite. Like, he's a beloved Celtic. And I think the reason he's beloved is because all he does is like, work his ass off, try to get better, be a good example. Doesn't ever say anything controversial, doesn't ever get in any kind of trouble, obviously. And all he is is just additive in all these different ways. And I think when you watch it day in and day out, that's what you notice when you're a fan of the team. I think if you're not a fan of the team and you're judging people by are they interesting? Are they up and down, Can I have conversations about them? There's just not a lot of Tatum conversations. But like, he's not as nearly as good as Tim Duncan, who's one of the. I have him as the seventh best player ever. But Tim Duncan used to take a lot of the same shit. He wasn't as interesting as Kobe. Remember, he wasn't as fun to watch as Steve Nash. He wasn't. He didn't care as much as kg. He wasn't as vocal. And there were always. Every time he got compared to anybody, even now, all these ex player podcasts, they always shit on Duncan or they go out of their way to talk about, oh no, Kobe was better. Kobe was way better, you know. But I just think some guys do that. You don't think.

[Dave Jacoby]

No, I think it's. I think it's. It kind of goes into like the ex player pods where it's like, he's really good at basketball. Maybe he's not the best in the press conference. Maybe he's not going to make you laugh. You know what I mean? Like Maybe he's not Peyton Manning. He's going to host snl. But like, we. That's not why we love him. We love him because he's a basketball player. So why do we knock him for not being a great personality?

[Bill Simmons]

But did you think LeBron was like, the most personable guy on the planet the first eight, nine years of his career? This was even a knock on him during that time where people are like, I don't.

[Dave Jacoby]

I mean, I could know what the Person hour podcast about LeBron's personality. I don't even. I don't even know where to start.

[Bill Simmons]

Nobody, we. Nobody could get a handle on him for the first almost. And really until like the second or third Miami years.

[Dave Jacoby]

I. I don't. I don't know who LeBron James is, dude. I don't want to start down that path. I don't want to start down that path.

[Bill Simmons]

We always had, like, kg, Anthony Edwards. Those are the kind of players that people seem to gravitate to. They're like Anthony Edwards, right?

[Dave Jacoby]

Because they're all seem authentic and they're fucking awesome and you want to hang out with them and they make you laugh and they're just. You're like, they're cool. They like, they sit at the lunch table that you are not allowed to sit at. That's where I like my professional athletes. I want my professional athletes to be at the table in the cafeteria that I'm scared to look at and I'm never allowed to sit at. You know what I mean? And I feel like Tatum's not there and I'm not knocking him for it. I'm just talking about it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, well, it's not the first time I've heard that. I think my argument for Tatum is he doesn't try to be anything he's not. You know, he's not trying. He doesn't want to host SNL and he doesn't want to be in an Adam Sandler movie. He doesn't want to do any of that stuff.

[Dave Jacoby]

He just wants to be 25 and 10 and 6. Yeah, that's what I'm going to do. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, one of the things, some of the, like, little stealth convos I've had are just people worried about removing basketball from his life. How's he going to handle the next four or five months? He's never had a major injury. He's been hooping basically since he was growing up in St. Louis. Everything is about, like, trying to get better, trying to get better, trying to catch people trying to Hit different levels and trying to be one of the 10 best players in the league, trying to be one of the best five, trying to win a title. Can I be the best player in the league? And not only is that chase over, but your body's been, like, really injured for the first time. How are you going to handle that? You know? And I think the good thing for him is Kobe was his idol, which you mentioned before. But Kobe had the exact same injury and really documented what it was like to have that injury and how he fought back from it and how he, you know, the work starts now. How great do you want to be? And I don't know. He. He weirdly laid like, the bible for how to attack something like this for somebody like Tatum.

[Dave Jacoby]

There's two pieces of information that we got today that I found really telling and I found kind of, like, brought me into the Tatum psyche and circle, which I loved. One was Marcus Spears. Not my favorite Marcus Spears. Swagu. I love the other Marcus Spears, but I love the football market Spears. So. So you talk about Marcus Spears? Yes. Yeah, the basketball one. He said that he spoke with Tatum's father, who's, like, coaching in Malaysia or whatever, and he. And he was allowed to talk about his conversation with his father, about his conversation with Jason. And his father said to Jayson Tatum, he said, your idol is Kobe Bryant. Your idol is Kobe Bryant. That's the path you wanted to go down. And this is part of the path. And that's not a direct quote, but I found that to be like, as a father, and, you know, I thought that was, like, a really cool thing to say, and I'm really glad that Spears got that information to share with us. Another thing, I don't know if you heard this part of the broadcast is Reggie said he texted with Tatum and he sort of, like, read the text on the broadcast. And I was sitting there. I felt. It was like. I felt it like a violation of trust. But obviously, Reggie texted him, and Tatum sort of sent this message to Celtics fans, and it was while they were, like, up by 20 end of the third quarter, and he was like, and I can't. Again, can't paraphrase. I just watched it, you know, 40 minutes ago. But he's. He's like. Jason Tabbs said he can't wait to get back into the Celtic Green, and he's going to show the fans how much that means to him. And as someone who sat on a pretty popular podcast 10 minutes ago and was like, I don't understand this guy. I don't get his personality and try to critique him in that way. Those two pieces of information getting into my brain was so fucking cool, you know what I mean? Like the idea that his dad gave him this guidance when he said probably the worst day of his life and that he texted Reggie knowing that it's going to get read on the broadcast in front of millions of people, that this message to Celtics fans about his appreciation of his, his position in the sport. I thought that was a really cool thing to hear today when there's been so much information about how long the injury is going to take and what's it going to be like when he comes back and what does the Celtics do with the roster? Like hearing that from him, I found touching.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, he's one of those guys within the organization. Absolutely beloved. Just, you know, you have a lot of different people over the years who could be the face of a franchise and he's really embraced it, has embraced the relationships with the guys who used to be on the team, the former star, and just kind of gets, it gets, you know, he came in when he was 19 and just kind of gets that this is a slightly different franchise than the usual franchise that has a lot of history and, you know, a lot of baggage, good and bad. But it's, it's the bummer for this is it took him getting injured, I think, for people to appreciate, you know, people, especially in this day and age, you're picking apart, you're picking apart. This guy doesn't do this. This guy did this, you know, you know what he does. He was the fourth best guy in the league and he was still getting better and he was playing probably the best all around game of his career in the game that he got hurt and there was still room for him to get better and better. And now who knows if he hit that limit or not. Durant came back and I felt like he was just about where he left in that 21 playoffs against Milwaukee. Right?

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But like scoring wise, it felt like he came back. So that would be the hope. And it seems like they caught it pretty early. But man, I was thinking it has to be one of the worst NBA injuries from hitting a guy at a certain point of his career. And also what it meant to a team like Bill Walton hurting his foot. That probably changed the course of a couple titles. There's been a couple of these. Derrick Rose, Derrick Rose's one where it felt like that was the team that was positioned to battle LeBron for the 2010s and then he's just gone. So we've had These Sampson in 86 when he fell and hurt his back. He was never really the same after that. There's been a few of these, but it's hard to remember. Like a first team o NBA guy just getting wiped out for not just a Brandon Roy. He wasn't as good as Tatum though. You know, like Tatum's been first team all NBA four years in a row. And one of the things that was so amazing about him is it felt like he was indestructible. You just felt like just pencil him in for 39 minutes a game and he'll get 13 rebounds in every game. So it's a tough one. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. What do I look forward to every NBA playoff season? Well, I'm always hoping the Celtics do well. I'm always hoping we have great storylines, great games, great matchups, great game Sevens. I just hope for good basketball. But the NBA playoffs are even better with Michelob Ultra, the official beer partner of the NBA. Plus, they're getting fans closer to the game with a chance to win courtside tickets and more. Enter now at michelobulture.com courtside Michelob Ultra Superior Access Courtside 2024-25 sweepstakes. No purchase necessary. Open to US residents 21 or older. Ends on July 1, 2025. Multiple entry periods. Visit michelobeltra.com SuperiorAccess Courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and official rules. Message and data rates may apply. Void where prohibited. This episode is presented by State Farm. On the basketball court, the best players know when to pass. And off the court, you still need teammates who are there when it counts. That's where State Farm comes in. With agents to help you find coverage that's right for you. You can focus on what really matters, whether that's hitting game winners or just getting through the day like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. State Farm coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. The only thing I could compare.

[Dave Jacoby]

Here's what your listeners want to know. Here's what your listeners want to know. Yeah, how's it been for you the last 48 hours? Like, what are you going through?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know.

[Dave Jacoby]

Like, we've talked about what Jason Tatum's going through, but, like, people listen to this podcast, they care about Bill Simmons. You know, it's the podcast. Like, what have you been doing the last 48 hours?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yesterday was brutal.

[Dave Jacoby]

What happened? Take me through it.

[Bill Simmons]

I was Just farting around all day. I did a power walk. I was on Twitter. I was just basically refreshing Twitter, waiting for the word and checking my texts. Um, now, when you get older as a sports fan, it starts reminding you of things that happen. So the obvious one was the Brady acl. That's the only other time I remember. And then when Cam Neely got hurt in the Pittsburgh series, and then when I was in college, that was another one. But. But at that point, we didn't know he was going to. It was going to change.

[Dave Jacoby]

What is the most, like, intrusive thought that you had?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I think the Brady one was the worst one, because that was when you just start thinking in terms of, all right, this is how long it's actually going to be versus when you're younger. And it's like, oh, it could be back in February. He'll be fine. But you're like, no, this is actually probably two years, and the whole team might be different. And maybe they missed their window. And then you start thinking about windows.

[Dave Jacoby]

Was there ever a part of you that was like, maybe next year it doesn't help us to win basketball games?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, I definitely had that thought. I don't know how you don't, especially with the financial stuff and the money.

[Dave Jacoby]

And they're so good.

[Bill Simmons]

I know. Well, then you start thinking the window of, like, from 22, 23, 24, 25. They make the finals in 22, and Curry just goes to another level, and they're not ready yet. They lose 23, they get to the game seven against Miami. I'll still. I'll always wonder what would happen if Tatum doesn't sprain his ankle in the first 40 seconds of the game, because I still feel like I just thought he was going to be awesome that game 24, they win this year. Cleveland gets bounced. They have a chance. Like, you know. But here's the other thing. The Knicks were about to go up 3.1in that series with.

[Dave Jacoby]

Anyway. They were winning anyway. Like, as a Knicks fan, like, the Knicks were going to win. I mean, I wish he never got hurt, but I feel like the Knicks win this series with Tatum not getting hurt. And that's a whole hypothetical. We don't have to go down. But one thing that I heard on this podcast from you, they might have won that.

[Bill Simmons]

They might have won the key game in the series before. During the. Right before he got hurt. It was already over. They were down 70. Turned them off.

[Dave Jacoby]

She was getting that. OG was getting that. You're going up nine. Yeah, it's like. And with Brunson, like, please, that's a win. They're winning. But I was listening to this stupid podcast, driving back from upstate like it was a pandemic. Might have been like, it's not the bubble. Maybe it was the bubble or the year after the bubble. And you were talking about the Celtics and just how like fickle the windows are. You know what I mean? You were just talking about like it was, I think it was, I think it was the, I can't remember if it's the bubble year, the year after the bubble. But you were talking during the playoffs around this time of year, just about like, hey, man, with these windows, like you think you got a chance next year, but like, you really don't like this. Like, sometimes it's a six month window, sometimes a two year window. And I think that this injury and this moment is just a good example of that. The Celtics are favorites to win the east, if not the championship. They're. They're the what, number two seed. But we all like secretly know that they're the best team in the Eastern Conference and we're talking about repeat championships and then this happens and we're talking about should they win games next year or tank for a pick. Like, that's just how fragile these things are.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I remember writing about it. OKC make the finals in 12, they do the hard end trade. Westbrook gets injured in 13, in 14, San Antonio beats. And then all of a sudden they get to the Klay Thompson game. Klay gets, catches fire, they lose that in seven. And they had this stretch of like, oh, that team's going to be in the finals the whole decade. And they won one finals game. The entire like the over under was probably 10 finals games. They won one.

[Dave Jacoby]

But at least there was a Klay Thompson game. As a Knicks fan, I'm going to look back and be like. And then Luke Cornette came in for KP to start the second half.

[Bill Simmons]

That's the thing.

[Dave Jacoby]

He blocked seven shots and we couldn't stop him. He caught an alley oop and then the series flipped. Yeah. And I feel like it was Luke Cornette.

[Bill Simmons]

But that's the thing you talk about windows, I would say this is the window for the Knicks is almost more dramatic. They, the Celtics get nudged out of this, potentially. Cleveland's out. You have Indiana now and I think you have home court, right? Yeah.

[Dave Jacoby]

What do you think, dude?

[Bill Simmons]

And then you just think like, all right, okay. See? Not afraid of them. Young Team Brunson vs. SGA head to head. We could take that or whether it's Minnesota, but yeah, I mean, the Knicks have never had a window that looked as good as this. Even in 99. They. They had no chance in that spurs series. You know, they weren't ever chance that.

[Dave Jacoby]

Heat series, dude, they won it.

[Bill Simmons]

The one. The. The one what if. I mean the obvious what if with the rockets in 94, but the, the bigger what if for me is that 93 Bulls series. I. They were every bit as good as the 93 bulls and they were right there. And that was an either or series. And you could drive yourself crazy with that. This is an amazing chance for them.

[Dave Jacoby]

In the first round. In 93, they beat the Pacers. 94 conference finals, they beat the Pacers 95. Second round. I know you know all this, but I just want to set this up as a potential Knicks Pacer Series. Second round, the Pacers win in a game seven. That's. That's 3, 4, 5. They go head to head. 98, second round, the Pacers beat him again. 99. The Knicks win in the conference finals. Like that. And then it's not just like last year. And then in 2000 the Pacers beat them like Pacers. Knicks is not like. I think this is like people hype up like Celtics Knicks as a rivalry, but they don't really meet in the postseason. Like I think if the Knicks have a rival, it is the Pacers.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Which is so weird. But I mean there was one of the first 30 for 30s was made about the Knicks Pacers mid 90s rivalry. It's a real. It's a real thing that exists. But by the way, it was a really good documentary.

[Dave Jacoby]

Who directed that? My guy. Right?

[Bill Simmons]

My guy. Dan Cloris. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dave Jacoby]

And Hicksburg Snitch. Did they interview Jalen? They must have.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Jalen's in that.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, he must be.

[Bill Simmons]

TNT's Jalen Rose.

[Dave Jacoby]

TNT's Jalen Rose killing it.

[Bill Simmons]

Racing, man, racing. Dwight Howard to the monitor.

[Dave Jacoby]

Dwight. Dwight's in slippers. What are you even doing? What are you even doing? Yeah, what are you doing, Dwight? What do you. What do you do? What are you doing, Dwight?

[Bill Simmons]

What are you doing there, Dwight? About. About that question.

[Dave Jacoby]

And I think that I again, like, I revisited last year's Pacers Knicks series and if there is a Pacers Knicks finals, Eastern Conference finals, which I believe there will be, it's. It. It was a lot closer than I remember. And OG getting hurt was huge. Brunson getting hurt, like it wasn't just. Yeah, I Just feel like it's a good matchup. And I. And I've listened to your stupid pod and I know you're all Pacers all the time and like, all the basketball people are so excited about the pace, but I think the Knicks should be and will win that series if it comes down to it.

[Bill Simmons]

FanDuel updated their Knicks Celtics odds.

[Dave Jacoby]

Oh, God.

[Bill Simmons]

And the knicks are now minus 270. They were, I think, minus 620 heading into today's game.

[Dave Jacoby]

The Celtics were minus 900 before the series started, and they lost.

[Bill Simmons]

The volatility of this for the playoffs. I mean, for the conference, Knicks are plus 125, and Indiana is also plus 125. It's so.

[Dave Jacoby]

I just think that I, I would hate that this goes down as, like, the series where Tatum got hurt, because I really liked it as the series where the Knicks shit the bed in game one at home and shit the bed in game two at home and then DNA'd in the pool in game four. That was my favorite. That was my favorite part of the.

[Bill Simmons]

DNA in the pool game, you know. Well, what's crazy about Game 4, the Tatum injury puts a little bit of a black cloud over what would have been one of the great Knicks wins ever and still is.

[Dave Jacoby]

Oh, what a great game, dude. One of the great games.

[Bill Simmons]

But now, now you have this Friday night game six ticket in New York City, which I think will be the hardest Knicks ticket to get. I don't even know when. I don't know if the demand for the 99 finals was even up there, because it just feels like there's more Knicks fans down. There's two new generations of Nick fans since 99. Everyone's going to want to be at this game, and it's going to be an incredible game.

[Dave Jacoby]

I've got a couple things on that. One is I wanted to go to game four because we were doing the mismatch after the game, and I was like, it'd be good for the show, whatever. And I was like, you know, I've got some expendable money. I'll just do it. It was like $900 to sit in the last row. I just couldn't bring myself. It was 900. Like, I just can't. I've got children. Like, I just can't do it. And another story I want to tell about game two is they have the watch party outside of the Garden, right? They kind of like, there's a plaza there, just like most places do, like beer garden in Milwaukee or whatever. And I was doing the Spotify new fronts shout to the sales Spotify people. And I did that event and it was right next to that Watch party. And it was like the second quarter. I went to a bar by the Garden and I had a couple beers and watched the game. And they started to come back and I was like, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna see if they win and I'm gonna go to the Watch party. Cause you've seen the stuff on Social from that area. Yeah, And I went there and I was super excited about the energy from the Knicks fans and everything. But it was really a commentary on like the content creation generation, because everyone was there with their phones out to create content for social, to show people.

[Bill Simmons]

That they were there.

[Dave Jacoby]

It was me too. I did the exact same thing, but it's not this. Like, I remember me and Kevin wilds went to 7th Avenue outside the Riviera after the Red Sox beat the Yankees. And 7th Avenue was shut down. It was all Red Sox fans. And we were all there together, just high fiving each other, being a big family. And it was before videos on the Internet, so we weren't capturing things with our phones. And again, I sound like an old guy or whatever, but when I went to this one, I was doing the same thing. It was just kind of like, who's got the best shot for my Instagram story? So you're looking, you're cruising the crowd, being like, who's the most excited? Who's got the best chance? Who can I film for this, this moment? So I think that when you view it and you're not there, it's a very different experience than living it. You know what I mean?

[Bill Simmons]

It'd be like if you were telling me that story right now. And I was like, yeah, hold on, Jacoby. Yeah.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, it's exactly what it was like. And it was kind of like, I get it, I'm guilty. I did it too. I'm not being critical. It was just like a. It's just a different time. It's like when you go to a concert and people are just like filming the concert. Like there's professional cameras. Like, they're. If you want to watch this later, you can do that. How about you just chill and watch it now?

[Bill Simmons]

I'm always. I always find that amazing. You know, I go to a few basketball games and people will tape like the national anthem. They'll report to cheerleaders. They're like, yeah, cheerleaders.

[Dave Jacoby]

And it's like all being recorded by professionals.

[Bill Simmons]

I was actually getting Matt the Game 4 Clippers, Nuggets, which Jokic, played one of the best games I've seen in person in a long time. And there were a couple influencers sitting in front of us just oblivious to it and try just hoping that the game would be closed so they could tape the thing and then do this.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And I'm just. I just wanted to, like, just hit them over the head with a Coke can. It's just like, how can you not focus on. This guy is one of the best basketball players of the last 30 years, and he's like painting a masterpiece right now. And you guys are fucking on TikTok. Yeah, get off our lawn, Jacoby.

[Dave Jacoby]

We sound like old guys, and I get it, but it's like, I paid a thousand dollars to watch them do their thing, but you really paid a thousand dollars to, like, film yourself watching them do their thing for the people that are following you or whatever.

[Bill Simmons]

And who's watching this video in 40 years? Like, your kids are like, oh, yeah, I'm still deleting Dad's icloud. He's at some Clipper game just taking photos of the cheerleaders.

[Dave Jacoby]

We're putting out Instagram stories. It literally disappears in 24 hours.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, what are we doing in 24 hours? Speaking of Jokic, I was so bummed. I just. I just love that guy. I was so bummed out last night, the first three plus quarters. That was unbelievable watching him do that to okc, where he's deciding every moment of every situation and just single handedly dragging the Nuggets to the finish line. And then it just came down to Lou Dort made a couple shots. Jalen Williams made a three that I never thought was going in. And the Nuggets missed basically every open shot they took. And all of a sudden, Nuggets were going home and they look like they're screwed.

[Dave Jacoby]

So I don't want to make this too reductive, right? But doesn't it just come down to a coach decides who we're going to leave open and whether or not that person makes the shot? You know what I mean? It's like, very reductive. It's like, we're going to leave Ludo open. It's like, oh, Porter Jr. He's got a hurt shoulder, hasn't hit. We're going to leave him open. Porter Jr. And Westbrook, like, it barely hit the rim in the fourth quarter.

[Bill Simmons]

But with Russ, they're like, yo, did you see that Ramona story about Russ with the unnamed teammate. Let's leave him open. Porter's got one arm. Russ is pissed about the story. We'll leave him open. If that Peyton. Peyton Watson comes in, leave him open. Strother open. You're just pointing at guys that just are going to be open.

[Dave Jacoby]

And the. The Jalen Williams one, it hit the front rim in the back room and went in like. He looked a little surprised after it went into I.

[Bill Simmons]

If you had freeze frame that and it was the biggest shot of the game, front rim, I would have said 10% odds. I didn't think I you would. You could have talked me into an airball or it hits the side of the backboard before it hits the rim. I just thought, no chance. But he's pretty good in that game. I still don't trust him.

[Dave Jacoby]

I think it's also worth mentioning the SGA 3. When they're up by 3 and he could he. They go under the screen and he's just like, you motherfucker, I'm the mvp. You're going to let me shoot this. And that one didn't touch the rim at all. That was pure. And that was a dagger. That was a night night shot. And the one thing I want to say about Jokic, which I was so when he had that offensive rebound, when he tipped it to himself to put it back in, he's like, you motherfuckers can't even hit a shot. I'm going to go down there and do everything. I'm just going to do everything. I'm going to make dinner.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like when our wives clean the dishes.

[Dave Jacoby]

I'm going to make dinner. I'm going to clean the dishes. I'm going to put.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, you didn't clean up after we ate. I'll clean up. You said your dishes flying around.

[Dave Jacoby]

That's exactly what was happening. He's just like, you know what? You're not an asset. The rest of you four are not an asset to me. But don't worry, I got this. And he almost did.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. The coach afterwards was talking about how, you know, I had to play a little Russian roulette there, basically with Yokage, I just had to keep them out there and keep our fingers crossed. It's like, yeah, because what else were you going to do? The moment he comes out, you're going to be -10 the second he steps out of the game. It's weird. I felt that. First of all, I thought that was the best playoff game. I think of the whole playoffs just.

[Dave Jacoby]

From a quality Standpoint, Nick Celtics, Game four was.

[Bill Simmons]

That was an exciting game. This was, like, exceptionally well played. Like, the.

[Dave Jacoby]

The execution defense.

[Bill Simmons]

The execution was. Just went to a whole other level.

[Dave Jacoby]

I'm sorry, but when Westbrook has two air balls and Michael Porter Jr. Has two air balls, it's hard for me to talk about the.

[Bill Simmons]

I was just thinking about all the stuff Jokic had to just see and deal with. It was like a quarterback just being blitzed every play, just trying to fig. Figure out what to do. So, weirdly, like, if, like, I voted for him for mvp, I feel better that I voted for him after watching that game. But SGA was equally awesome down the stretch and showed all the reasons why. If you voted for him, you'd feel good about that, right? He's got a good team, but when they really needed them, he made just about every play it felt like to help them. So it was weird to watch a game where both guys won. They had that moment where they kind of traded baskets for a second, and I was like, this is what a great MVP race that was because both of these guys are incredible and Jokic is. There's just nobody like this. They, you know, I keep talking about in the pods. They were just, we're not going to see anything like this again for a while.

[Dave Jacoby]

Well, one of the things I loved about that Jokic performance was the 48 hours between game four and game five was turnover to assist ratio, and the worst he's ever shot from the field. It was this kind of like, have the Thunder solve the Jokic problem. And you've watched it. Jokic, you're like, okay, guys, yeah, well, we'll see if you solve the. People been trying to solve the yogic problem for three years now. Like, they're there. You cannot solve the Yogic problem. It's like Matt Damon in Good Hunting in the chalkboard. It's like, you cannot do it. It's impossible.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, it's. He approaches basketball. It's like when you. When you watch golf and they talk About Scotty Scheffler, 24th last week, Fix something in his swing. And he said he was leaning back a little bit on his drives, and then he'll just rip a drive straight down the fairway. Like, oh, yeah, I fixed this swing. Jokic is, like, doing that during a series where it's like, Nicole Jokic didn't have a great game four. He noticed some things in the tape. He fixed his whatever. And then it's just like, he's completely solved okc, who's doing the same thing. But now instead of speeding him up, making him do things he doesn't want to do, he's just. He's just on it. Like he's got them on a fucking. Yo, yo. I thought. I just thought he was so awesome in that game. It's a much more fun series if Denver wins that game and we get to really see OKC with their backs.

[Dave Jacoby]

To the wall under pressure. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. It's like, okay, guys, go to Denver. Let's see if you can win this one. Cleveland was in a similar situation yesterday, and they just cratered from it. They couldn't handle was a full fledged cratering.

[Dave Jacoby]

I think there's a good parallel there between Jokic and Mitchell where it's like, I'm standing on my head here, guys. I'm giving you 40 plus, you know what I mean? Like, I got like, Mitchell's hurt. He. And like, he didn't play great. But remember in the. In the. Was the fourth quarter, he had like three straight threes. He's just like, guys, like, I just need some help. Like Max Struse, like, do something like Michael Porter Jr. Do. Just. I'm not asking superstars.

[Bill Simmons]

All these guys that were good in the regular season.

[Dave Jacoby]

Juice something guys, you know what I mean? And. And remember, I'm sure you remember the Celtics series last year was a similar thing with Mitchell. It was just like, again, there's guys out, Garland was out. And, you know, but like, it's. It's just hard. You just. These guys need more help. They need more help.

[Bill Simmons]

I've been him in Utah, too. I'm wondering. Maybe it's him. Maybe it's not the sporting.

[Dave Jacoby]

No, no. I love Mitchell.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe he's just eating too much of the food in the fridge and everybody else is just hungry and forgets how to eat.

[Dave Jacoby]

I don't think that's how it works. But one of the things I love about Jokic is, like, my kids don't care about basketball at all. And they come into the room when I'm watching, and I'm like, do you see that, like, slow kind of fat guy? Like, that's the best basketball player in the planet. Like, that guy.

[Bill Simmons]

And it's not even close. He's definitely the best guy.

[Dave Jacoby]

The best.

[Bill Simmons]

And then we don't even argue about this anymore.

[Dave Jacoby]

It's just like, they're like, that guy right there.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm like, yeah, yeah.

[Dave Jacoby]

Like, watch. Just watch and, like, do some slow, weird stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

The scratches on his arms.

[Dave Jacoby]

I love it. I love it.

[Bill Simmons]

All Right, Jacobs. Friday night. We'll see with the Knicks. Perfect situation for them. I'm sure they're going to learn some things from this tape. I'm sure Luke Carnet's not going to do that again. I'm sure they're going to attack Jalen Brown a little differently, but still some pressure.

[Dave Jacoby]

I. I'm terrified.

[Bill Simmons]

They've been down 14 plus in every single game of the series, including today.

[Dave Jacoby]

That's. That's. That's a fact that I can't dispute, but I feel really good about the Knicks chances on Friday night. Timothy Chalamet and his girlfriend will not let us lose.

[Bill Simmons]

When is the Mismatch taping?

[Dave Jacoby]

Mismatch tapes? Thursday, after that Thunder Nuggets game. And Verno has done a really good job of just really entrenching him in this. Like, the Thunder are too young and they need to go through their playoff scars, and they can't. There's no way they can beat the Nuggets. They've been there before. Championship pedigree. And, like, he's really, really rooted deep, deep down in this take in a way that I'm scared to do as someone who does this for a living, and I'm really proud of him, but it's going to be a fun pod afterwards because he's either going to be really, really right or really, really wrong.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, there you go. He was really wrong about Memphis. He thought Memphis had a window. They never even bought the window.

[Dave Jacoby]

No, you and you and him have something in common is when you guys are wrong about a take, you go straight into excuse mode.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Dave Jacoby]

You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. You do this, too. It's. It's all, oh, it's because, well, John Moran got hurt. I mean, I didn't know John Moran was going to go down.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Dave Jacoby]

I didn't know Steph Curry was going to get hurt. It's always like, I'm right, but these extraneous circumstances created an environment in which I was wrong. It's not my fault. It's the world's fault.

[Bill Simmons]

It's smart. It's a great way to play it.

[Dave Jacoby]

It's a good move.

[Bill Simmons]

Dave Jacoby. We got to do another rewatchables at some point, too. People are still bringing up Project X. This is one of the highlights of their lives. Yeah, I know. All right. Good to see you, my friend.

[Dave Jacoby]

Good to see you, too.

[Bill Simmons]

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[Kathy Engelbert]

Yeah, definitely tens of millions. So we were, you know, back when I joined, we were at the, you know, kind of on the outskirts of professional Sports back in 2020 and then the pandemic. We held the season in a bubble down at IMG Academy and then just raised some capital in early 2022, which gave confidence, I think, to our owners to start investing and build on the momentum. And then we got this amazing rookie class led by Caitlin Clark last year yeah, yeah. So, yes. And the quality of the game, Bill, has really advanced enormously since I certainly played the game when there was no women's professional sports basketball league. So I do take it with great responsibility that we are the longest tenured women's professional sports league in the US by double any other. But you know, we've arrived for sure.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. It feels like when the whole Steph Curry era of how basketball. Basketball got a little smaller, the shooting expanded out, there was more slash and kick stuff. And I think that's helped the league more than anything for wnba. Like when you go back and you look at the Games from 20, 25 years ago and they were resembling, you know, everybody had like big players and you're trying to post up and establish. And now when you watch it like the, the, the pace of it's better. The skills bet like I, I just, I like I went to a finals game and I was like blown away by, by the quality of it. And also there's a bunch of good players. You're in like a really nice little talent boom here. Right. And then you had this rookie class.

[Kathy Engelbert]

You know, during Asia Wilson and Nafisa Collier and just, you know, you know, to add into the rookie. And we have another great rookie class off of our draft this year with Paige Beckers and Kiki Iriefen and I mean personalities, like huge personalities too. So I think that has arrived. But, but literally there's so much. We're hitting this confluence in women's sports and the wnba. We were kind of ahead of the curve in raising that capital back in 22. Now there's so much capital coming in and partners and corporate partners and it's led to kind of major investments on the player development side. So when you have build that confidence in a business model that's going to work and is sustainable, which is what I've been brought in to do, you see the benefits of that, the returns of that and then you see, you know, an athlete, a generational athlete like Caitlin. I analogize it to the Tiger woods effect in golf and just her followership and then the rivalry she came in with against Angel Reese and LSU Iowa and now Paige Becker's coming in from UConn off of Championship. So. But we had great players for many, many for a couple decades. But now I think with social media, with nil, with them having brands when they come in and followership and just the quality of the game, I can't say enough about that too.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's the old school motto that I'M sure we both grew up with where you'd watch the players in college for a couple years. They would come to the NBA, you'd feel like you knew them. You know, like Ewing was at Georgetown for four years. It was like I, I knew that guy by the time he got to the Knicks and the NBA. I think the one thing, not that the NBA is doing badly, but the one thing that they lost a little bit as the one and done era started was just not having these guys would come in and they would go to bad teams and you know, for every Anthony Edwards, there will be other guys that might show up on a team, not make the playoffs for five years. You just didn't have the same connection. You have this advantage now that, I mean that you're using college basketball as this amazing feeder system. You know, like when Juju got hurt during the tournament, it was like ah, like I was so excited to see if she, what, what team she, if she was going to come out for the draft, what team she might go for. But you just feel like a different connection. So Paige Beckers, I feel like she's been in college for forever, whereas like Cooper Flagg was at Duke for six months, you know.

[Kathy Engelbert]

Yeah, no, it's a, it's a very good point. And the other thing is the brands are seeing the value of these athletes staying in college because again, under our current CPA, you have to be 22 by the end of the calendar year in which you get drafted if you're in the U.S. universities.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. So Juju couldn't even come out. Yes. She would have waited one more year.

[Kathy Engelbert]

Right. So we wish her well. She's going to be an amazing player in the WNBA someday, but obviously had that injury during NCW tournament. But yeah, so I do think that brands get to know them, fans get to know them, they come out and they thrive in the W. I mean as hard as and as competitive as the W is, they not only have a local and kind of regional brand like they have in college, but then they have a national and actually now a global brand. So I think it's kind of cool to watch that.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, and then the number two pick in the draft, the YouTube clips were nuts and it seemed like one of those things like obviously Becker's gonna go first, she's famous. Like you can build a franchise around her and she's excellent and she's won everywhere she's been. Then you have this French kid that when you watch. I did a token YouTube deep dive on her. I was Like, I'm not quite sure I've seen this before in women's basketball. So how do you, like, market somebody like that?

[Kathy Engelbert]

Yeah, so Dominique Malunga is her name. She was drafted number two to the Seattle Storm. And our GMs are really smart. They're looking at the global talent pool. I think four of our top 12 picks this year were players born outside the United States, so. Including one that was in the university system from Australia. But it's incredible what Dominique. I mean, again, I met her at the draft, but we brought her over from France. But you know what she's doing effortlessly around her athleticism, dunking. So we'll see. She'll help lift Seattle. And we're going to have a lot of parity in the league this year, Bill. I mean, it's not just going to be two teams like it's been in the past or three. I think six, seven teams are really going to compete hard for the championship this year.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, with her, like, the dunking, everybody gets excited. If a woman's part dunk, this is going back to, like, you know, the 80s. The way she moves is just different. And to me, when I was watching, I was like, I don't know if I've seen a player navigate the court like this at this size. So that'll be fun. You know, you mentioned how the league's in this awesome place right now, right? You 13, you have. The San Francisco team is going to be launching. I think you have Portland and Toronto coming down the road next year.

[Kathy Engelbert]

Portland and Toronto.

[Bill Simmons]

So that's going to be 15.

[Kathy Engelbert]

15, yep. So we're looking at. I've kind of talked about getting to 16 by no later than the end of 28.

[Bill Simmons]

So let's talk about that, though, because the history of when professional sports leagues grow and things start to get a little good and then they start expansion for a couple, expanding because you get the expansion fees. There's interest, there's money in there. What's the. What's the right number of teams? Because for me, I. I don't think it should be more than 16. Like, I'm really hoping that you don't. All of a sudden you're at 24, and you end up in a situation where the, the teams, you know, everybody just has one good player and that's it. Like, how. How do you know what the right number is?

[Kathy Engelbert]

It's excellent timing to be talking about it because we do have so much interest from some great cities. And I, I knew when I joined the league when Technology is driving so much of your economy and you don't have a team in the Bay Area, San Francisco, that we needed to fix first. And then Toronto and Portland. And Toronto is such a great sports market. And after that Raptors win, when I was actually being courted to come into the wnba, the Raptors won the NBA championship that year. And so I knew Toronto would be a great place. Portland, great place for women's sports. So I think you're right, Bill. You don't want to degradate the quality of the game by bringing in too many teams too fast. That's why people thought like, my first thing I should have done is when I came in was expansion. And I said, no, we've got a lot of transformation of the business model, the economic model. We got to build confidence in this league, bring investment into this league and capital, get our owners all on the same page. And so that's what we've done. And now it's time to expand. Which you're going to see the Valkyries this year out in San Francisco. Really?

[Dave Jacoby]

Home run.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, they already, they like sold out right away. Right.

[Kathy Engelbert]

They have more season ticket holders than any team in the history of the wnba. And what's really interesting, Bill, and this tells you about the wood, less than 5% of those season ticket holders are Golden State Warrior season ticket holders, but they're owned by the same ownership group. They're going to play in Chase Center. That's an amazing stat because we know that our, you know, we have such a great fan base and it just brings in a whole new fan base, a whole new media market for us. Same with Toronto having kind of the country of Canada. So, you know, more to come. But you're right, we're currently evaluating and really putting together an analysis of what the right numbers of team teams are and when. But we do have a huge amount of demand, low supply, high demand from some great cities that you would say would be a no brainer for a WNBA team.

[Bill Simmons]

Low supply, high demand is a good thing. But yeah, you go back, you go back 60, 70 years with sports. This is how you get in trouble when you're like, hey, we're doing good, let's grab some teams. So you had a year and a half ago Portland and Golden State were the expansion teams. And I think it was like, what was it, 50 million was the fee.

[Kathy Engelbert]

Yeah, they varied. So Golden State was different than Toronto, which was different from Portland, which will be very different from team 16, but.

[Bill Simmons]

Portland was 50 and now the price is like 125 to get in.

[Kathy Engelbert]

Portland's a little higher than that.

[Bill Simmons]

So it's already gone up two and a half times at a year and a half.

[Kathy Engelbert]

Yeah, it's incredible what has happened, but if you just look at the revenue teams are building, there's going to be some valuations coming out from both Sportico and Forbes in the next few months. I think that are going to show an enormous increase in the valuation of LTS because revenue is up, whether it's from Gate, whether it's from corporate partnerships, whether it's from merch. You know, there's a lot of things that lead into a multiple on revenue and a confidence in the risk underlying.

[Bill Simmons]

Being in the league. Yep, that always helps, I feel like. So you have 40 game season, 44 this year. So most of the season bumped it up.

[Kathy Engelbert]

44, we bumped it up. That's the max. Under the CBA we can play 44. So last year it was hard to play that because it was an Olympic year and we had to break for the Olympics in the middle of our season. But this year, no international competition, we can comfortably play 44 without footprint.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, so that's 22 home games and then the playoffs.

[Kathy Engelbert]

You're looking at playoffs this year. We have a little evolution as well, the first round. So we're a three, five, seven now. First ever.

[Bill Simmons]

You went seven, I missed that seven. Yeah.

[Kathy Engelbert]

Our finals.

[Bill Simmons]

That's exciting.

[Kathy Engelbert]

Seven games. And Bill, you came to that Minnesota, New York game. Can you imagine that went full five games to overtime. Can you imagine if that has been a seven game? And that was one of my goals, is to get our finals, the seven game series. Because sports leagues play seven game series like you're seeing in the NBA right now. So in game sevens are one of the most exciting things I think in sports. So we'll have seven games and even our first round now will be 111 instead of 2 1. So everybody will get a home game that makes the playoffs. So yeah, we're evolving that with the footprint we have.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, so before you took the job, you're looking back at the 2010s, which the WNBA was in such bad shape that Diana Taurasi, who's the best player in the history of the league, just decided to skip a season because it wasn't worth enough money for her and she was making more money overseas. And it seemed bleak. It seemed like a business that wasn't going to make it and that the NBA was basically subsidizing, almost like a charity case. So what flips over the last eight years, other than Caitlin Clark? What are the big reasons? Because even before Caitlin came into the league, this was. This was happening. So style of play, what else do you think it was?

[Kathy Engelbert]

Yeah, one of the things I looked at when I came in, I said, like, we need a strategy. We set. I do everything in threes, Bill. So I said we gotta be player first. Stakeholder success, including owners and players, et cetera, and fan engagement. We had to make it easier to be a fan. So we set off on this path. But that sat on the foundation called the game, which I thought had never been better, both at college and into the wnba. The brand, which was really strong, the organization, team and league, which were a total mess and we needed to transform and hire human capital. And then the ecosystem. Think media companies, corporate partners, where less than 1% of all corporate partnership dollars in sports back in 2019 were going to women's sports, and less than 5% of all media coverage going to sports was going to women's sports. So what changed is this confluence that I was talking about of capital coming into the league. Confidence building, valuations going up, higher demand, new facilities, better amenities. We did kind of what we called a historic CBA back in 2020. Now we're in another one and we'll do something transformational this year. But it's the confluence of all that and this popularity of the game. I mean, basketball is the number one team sport in the United States and it's number two globally, so next to soccer. So it's really an amazing time to be in women's sports and then in women's basketball. So. But let's not. This has been really hard. Hardest. I mean, I spent 33 years before I came here in business. This has been the hardest five years because we had to. Every rock we picked up, we had to transform something under it. And last year, my mantra was the bold will win. Everything must change. And that was even before I knew Caitlin was even coming into the league. And then this year, it's sustaining gains. So I always have a mantra every year. But we stick with this strategy. Player first, stakeholder success, fan engagement. We've hired engineers, hired social media. We had none of that. Twelve people in the league when I joined, and we had no growth engine. And now we have 25 people driving growth at the league level. We had one marketing person when I joined. Now we have close to 30 marketing people hired a CMO was a long time Nike professional. So, I mean, it's just been a great lesson in you need financial capital to hire human capital, but you need the people to grow the business. So we were ready. I didn't know this was coming as quickly as it did. I thought we need three or four more years. And what happened last year was sellout arenas and record breaking viewership. And look at our preseason this year, Bill. We just had like sold out college arenas. That was the other thing I wanted to. How do you get the NCAA viewer into the W viewership?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Kathy Engelbert]

And one of the ways to go back to those college arenas like we did with, you know, going to Iowa and Notre Dame, LSU and then Sabrina and the Liberty will be playing in Oregon. So leading into the tip of the season. So, yeah, it's. It's, you know, just every idea. We can be bold. We're a smaller league, smaller brand, but we can be bold and really bring. Bring what our fans want. And we've been listening a lot.

[Bill Simmons]

I would throw in two other things. One is the Women's Final Four. That Friday night on espn, especially that semifinals doubleheader. It felt like all this and it was doing well, but it felt like something shifted with that. Where that really became like a casual sports fan event. Not just the real basketball fans, but everybody. And all of a sudden those games seem to really matter and then that becomes the feeder system. The other thing, you had a couple owners that actually gave a shit and, and looked at. Looked at their franchises and their place in the league as like. And tried to innovate. Like, it seemed like the size with the. With the Liberty, like what Mark Davis did with Las Vegas with. What did he do? Give away tickets for like three years to try to build support.

[Kathy Engelbert]

They weren't giving away, but they were cheap in the upper bone.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah. But he was really trying to get people in the building to give a crap about it. And that seems like those are, I think, two of the sterling leaders of the league now. But it seems like because the owners really care. So it's almost like a neighborhood where once people start fixing up their house, then everybody feels like they have to fix up their house.

[Kathy Engelbert]

And I think also it was like the confidence. Like when I came into the league, the owners of which the size were just joining the league. Mark wasn't in the league yet. MGM owned the Aces. The owners were all in on something called a go big. So literally it was go big or go home. When I was interviewing for the role, go big or go home. So all the owners saw something in the future. It was just, let's chart a Path, let's hire a commissioner. Let's hire great human capital to execute it. So I think that's when the size joined. Mark joined a few years later and then had, you know, Mark had a, you know, before he got there, a couple great drafts with an Asia Wilson and a Jackie Young and, you know, a few others, you know, Chelsea Gray came from LA and free agency. And so I think that helps. And it helps when you have those star players. New York attracted Brianna Stewart and they had drafted Sabrina Unescu, who had gotten hurt her rookie season in our bubble. So, and you know, to your point about the NCAA also in the Final Four that Friday night, I mean, those are the big games of consequence. Like how great is March Madness on both the men's and women's side? Those are the huge games of consequence and we that shorter season. So I, I would, I would argue a lot of our games are games of consequence, even in the regular season. But then when we get into the playoffs, you're going to see a lot of competitive competition, a lot of parody this year leading into our playoffs in September into October when we crown the champion.

[Bill Simmons]

So you have the, the players union, there's going to be a CBA that you're going to have to negotiate with them. You have all this interest from all these people who either buying franchises already did and the prices have gone way up, but yet the business model hasn't been proven to be successful yet. So you're still investing in it, still growing. The attendance has gone way, way up the last couple of years. You're in this new media rights deal where I think you at least tripled what you were making before, but you're only still doing 44 games a year plus the playoffs. Also you have, what's the thing you had where people, people bought in, they bought percentages of the teams. So you have like the syndicate that owns a piece of the league. What is that?

[Kathy Engelbert]

Yeah, just in the league, not teams. This was the thing I referred to in February of 22 because we had no capital to go hire people to affect a digital transformation, to hire social media marketing people.

[Bill Simmons]

So what percentage was that?

[Kathy Engelbert]

So. Well, first of all, half of our existing teams invested in it. So it was 16% altogether. But about 6% of that were existing investors like the size and the Seattle Group and Indiana Washington, Ted Leonses. So it was about 10% outside investors like Nike and Michael Dell and Condoleezza Rice and Swing Cash and Paukasol and Baron Davis. So we opened it up to a broader group of Diverse investors, Melody Hobbs and Gayle King. Like, we're really proud of what we did back then and it served us well. I mean we would not be where we are today, not even close, without that capital and having deployed it against so many different things, including, you know, marketing, including. We launched our first ever in season competition. We have our Commissioner's cup well before the NBA did it as a nice little trial run for the NBA's Emirates Cup. Now and again we're just able to produce all of our preseason games. We weren't able to do that before. We just had this record breaking game between the Indiana Fever and the Brazilian national team. A preseason game that averaged 1.3 million viewers on ESPN. And then our draft was the second most viewed ever, the most viewed compared to MLB and NHL in their history. So we're just, we're seeing the returns of that investment in a big way and the values of our teams going up. So that capital raise, when you saw the people that came and invested, I think gave confidence to all of our owners to invest in their teams which is driving their team values up. So I think it's a bit of a confidence builder and capital and valuation is all about confidence in the business and what you're building here. And to your question or point about the media deal. So we're not even done yet. So that was our tranche one media deal which actually was much more than triple. Five to six times.

[Bill Simmons]

What was five to six times?

[Kathy Engelbert]

Okay, yeah, so that was a 200 million AAV and we were going in with about 40. But well, by the time we're done with tranche two because we still have plenty of inventory left to sell hopefully we're aiming to be about 260Aav over many years. And that's the other thing. When you, when you get a big piece of your revenue locked in at a huge number. I mean this is actually pretty historic or is historic. Largest media deal in the history of women's sports. And as we know and as you know better than anybody, Bill, the landscape's changing so quickly. Streamers are interested in us, they're interested in more year round content. Partnering with the NBA we can provide. We're the only two leagues that run counter that can provide over 320 days of live programming to a streamer. And so it was much more attractive to a Disney and Amazon and NBCU with Peacock for the W to be, to be part of this historic deal. So we're excited about that starts next year, next season. This year we're still under our old deals.

[Bill Simmons]

So you took that investment. It's almost like a startup business thought they were a startup doing like a round getting people to invest. No different than if you had like a AI company or something people buy in, use that money, throw it back in the league in all these different ways and it actually paid off. The, the part that. So it's funny like this has come full circle almost where a lot of the good stuff that was happening for WNBA the first 20 years solely happened because of the relationship with the NBA and basically Stern pushing it, being like you have to show the NBA it has to be on tv, like basically forcing the networks to take it as part of the NBA package. Now in this, in this last deal I was watching from afar going would they, would WNBA have been better off not being attached to the NBA at all? Would they have been better off being on their own, like doing their own thing just entirely.

[Kathy Engelbert]

It's a little bit of an unknown thing. We already had our own deals. We already had Amazon, we've had Amazon. This will be our fourth year with Amazon. We had have Scripps Ion, we have cbs. Those are three deals the NBA doesn't have. So everyone just assumes it's just the NBA deal. It's not. But again, the beauty of going to market at least for that first tranche of deals with the NBA is that 320 plus days of live program, we're the only two leagues that can do that here in the US and it paid huge dividends because otherwise we're a four and a half month season bill and it's not as interesting to a streamer who's on a subscription plan with their subscribers every month. Right. But you need to provide year round content and that's why that was advantage. I mean obviously NBA's been a huge supporter for a long time under David who launched a league. Now Adam obviously and I sit on the NBA senior leadership team which is helpful, you know, because we can, you know, play off one another and they've seen huge now demand for the WNBA game and are always really helpful. We share some back office shared services, but again we kind of because of that capital raise been able to hire a lot of people on our own and have our own sellers on that side of things. But yeah, I mean it's a huge advantage. There's a reason why we're the longest tenured women's professional sports league ready to enter season 29 and it's because we've had a big brother all along.

[Bill Simmons]

Well so how do you make sure you're not perceived as being too big yet? Because the next step for this is like charter plans for every team. Salary cap goes way up and things start happening financially that maybe don't capture where the league is economically. So you're the one in charge of balancing that, especially when you have a bunch of agents coming in. You have players who expect to be paid certain way. I've seen some of the quotes already from people who play for the league who rightly want as much money as they could possibly make. Yes.

[Kathy Engelbert]

And we want them to make as much money as they can make. But keeping in mind the economic model we've been building and I would say, you know, five, six years ago we were like an infant. And you talked about it being viewed as a startup. We were like an infant in our economic model, not in the game, our economic model. And now we like graduated to like a young adult. We kind of skipped our teen years and our tweeting years and we graduated to a young adult. But we still have a lot of growth ahead of us. And it's not just the media deal driving growth and that's going to drive significant increases in player pay. And you know, last year we already did the charter program fully for all teams for the whole season and playoffs. We had been chipping away each year. We did it in the initially for the finals and we did it for all playoffs, Commissioners cup. And I felt because I knew kind of where we were trending on the media deal that we would pay it forward and give the players charter last year from the.

[Bill Simmons]

So everybody got charter last year because two years ago that was a big.

[Kathy Engelbert]

That was a big catch, everyone. We did it in between collective bargaining. So we did it because I felt very confident in the fact that if we could get to 2026 and the new media rights deals and I knew where we were trending, that we would essentially pay it forward and do it sooner than the next month to bargaining cycle. So that's done. Our corporate partners have stepped up in a huge way. We just signed Ally Financial. They're going to do Rivals week. They're going to innovate inside the partnership. We have Google and Nike and deloitte and, and AT&T and Carmax and so many others and American Express. So I mean we're in such good shape, but we still have a lot of low hanging fruit growth global. I mean, Bill, if you ask me, what's next, Kathy, after expansion and all this and cpa, it's global. I mean There's, I mean, when I was at the State Department a couple years ago, they said like one of the number one requests they get from embassies is for women basketball players and the WNBA to come to those embassies and show young girls that they can be professional athletes and leaders in their community. So there's so much upside.

[Bill Simmons]

So do you think, could you see a world where there's almost like what they're talking about in the NBA where there's a European version of the league and there's some sort of you WNBA season happens, that season happens. And then there's like a world finals. Is that like in play down the road?

[Kathy Engelbert]

Obviously kind of tested Canada as our first outside the U.S. we'd love to play preseason games around the world. That's part of our plan. And whether that's in Europe, Asia, Africa, longer term exposed cities on the list, there's a lot of cities that would like us to come and have an exhibition or a regular season game. This year we're playing our first ever regular season game outside the US In Vancouver. I know that might not sound like a big deal, but this is a regular season game that the Atlanta Dream will actually host the Seattle Storm up in Vancouver. And we've seen huge success selling out in Edmonton and Toronto on preseason games. So the sky's the limit globally. We just want to make sure we have the right global footprint first. Nike just took Sabrina Unescu over to Asia. She went to China and Hong Kong and I think the Philippines. And so that kind of. You remember, Bill, what happened with the NBA when they brought Kobe there and Stephon Marbury and we built huge businesses and huge followership in Asia. And so I think we'll look at that playbook a little bit and make sure we're bringing our game to markets. I mean, we showed our games in India a couple years ago and 24 million unique viewers watched our games in India and we didn't have one player from India in the wnba. So lots of upside globally for us.

[Bill Simmons]

So you have to figure out the cba. What's the timeline for the next deal?

[Kathy Engelbert]

The timeline is by the end of the year. So I feel really good. We've already been having meetings. I feel really good that we'll get something transformational done together. You know, the players will posture in the media. But as I said on draft night, we're not going to negotiate in the media. We're going to negotiate across the table and we're going to return as much as we possibly can with Keeping in mind the financial viability of the league for many decades to come. And I think the players will want that too.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, so here's my big nitpick. I hate that, that these games go against NFL on Sundays. Like huge. And I was emailing you, but I.

[Kathy Engelbert]

Know you said that.

[Bill Simmons]

I know we've, I know we've discussed it.

[Kathy Engelbert]

You know, I threw out that stat about the, about the Golden State Valkyries only having less than 5% of the fans that were season ticket holders that were Golden State Warrior fans. The actual, you know, look, the footprint is challenging. It's a Rubik's cues, arena availability, broadcast windows. We got to do mid October and I realized that goes into both the college football season. So we don't, generally don't play on Saturdays and it goes into the NFL season for sure, although, so we ironically get a weird pickup in viewership on Sundays when we.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, so that was the counter. You guys actually did really well going against football. It was like this, almost like an alternative football audience.

[Kathy Engelbert]

If the one o' clock game, a lot of times we play at 3 o' clock Eastern, the 1 o' clock games close to over by then or the score or whatever, people will turn on ABC or espn. We do really well on ABC because we have a more lifestyle viewer. And I think our crossover, we get a lot of fan data. That was the one thing Bill, when I came to league, we had no, I go, who's our fan? And everybody looked at me like what? So now again we have data analysts and data scientists and you know, fan acquisition and insight, like insight people who will take our fan data and give me insights off of that. And one of the insights was I think we only have 20% crossover with NFL fans. So only 20% of NFL fans are also WNBA fans. Now we would like more of them. So we'll have our Taylor Swift someday. Right? Right. Because we skew a little more women than the men's leagues do. And so, you know, I think we're working on ways to bring in more fans, whether it's from other men's professional sports or women's or whatever. But that was an aha when I saw we're only 20% yet it's like 60 some percent NBA fans are also WNBA fans. So, you know, so it's a much bigger percentage. So not to compete against the NBA or college basketball is more important to me. Like I don't even view it as competing against the NFL because we have a whole different fan base. But we get a Little lift on those Sundays when we play games. I know a lot of people don't think so, but we do.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Well, the other challenge seems to be you're basically like the matriarch of this family and you want all the kids to get shine in all these different ways. But then you've also stumbled into this phenomenon in Caitlin that's like a once a decade thing. Like the last time it really happened in sports was probably Steph Curry in 2014, right. When the, when the warriors thing really started taking off and you could just feel the energy shift. I remember going to a Warriors game the year that, the year before the 73 win season and just get in there early. Cause I want to see media people. And there were people were in the arena just to. In case he was still going to be there for warmups. I was like, ah, this is, this is like different. This has not happened for a while. You have this now with Caitlin. So how, how do you balance pushing her versus like making sure like Asia Wilson, her shoe just sold out in five minutes. So it's not like some of the other players aren't doing well. But how do you balance making sure you're not just too focused on her and. But you also don't want to not focus on her. Not enough. You know what I mean?

[Kathy Engelbert]

No, it is a balance, but she's a generational talent. No league's ever about one player. But in this case, Caitlyn brought tens of millions of new viewers into the W. And there's no denying that impact, not just in the wnba, but the world of sports. Adam and I talk all the time about she's the most popular athlete in America. You know, she went to an LPGA tournament for a Pro Am on a Wednesday and like throngs of people were out there to watch her. You know, I was at the Masters last year when she was in the final four, and you know, I counted like 19 Caitlin Clark shirts of people walking around the Masters. So it's crazy.

[Bill Simmons]

Like I, I said on a pod, I think she's the most popular under 30 team sport athlete we have now that Mahomes is 30. I think anyone under 30, I think she has anyone in any sport at this point, just from a recognizability.

[Kathy Engelbert]

Just turned 23. So she is hugely popular. But again, you do want to balance it because obviously saw what happened with Juju Watkins. You know, you want to balance making sure that you're also promoting your other stars like an Asia Wilson like Brianna Stewart, Nafisa Collier killed it last year. I mean she was the runner up MVP and the defensive player of the year.

[Bill Simmons]

I loved her. I thought she was awesome.

[Kathy Engelbert]

Yeah. And she's a great person.

[Bill Simmons]

She got a couple calls in the finals. I thought, I thought she could have gotten some superstar calls. I was upset about that.

[Kathy Engelbert]

She's a mom and a role model for so many. So. Yeah. So I think again, that's why this year sustain and gain. Sustain the momentum we had last year and gain even new, new viewers. Because if you look at, I mean we're up triple digits in every category in every demographic and young people, old people, young girls and boys were having watch parties and watching our games. So it was incredible.

[Bill Simmons]

So how's the gambling? If the gambling comes, that's when you really know when the. When they. Because I know like fanduel was saying they actually had like real interest, especially as it went to the playoffs. So that's like a whole other. A whole other. Like that's what you know, you're doing okay.

[Kathy Engelbert]

There already is a lot of legalized sports betting on the wba. And you know, one of the things last year on our tip off night happened to be a Tuesday night last year, not a Friday night because of the Olympic break and we had to push everything in. But we competed on ESPN2 against the NHL Stanley Cup Playoffs and outrated it. And FanDuel said the handle on the W was the highest in the month of May last year of any sport. So it was incredible. So yeah, that's another like, like if you think about innovation about watching bet and bet and watch and why do people watch sports? They watch for rivalries. They watch for compelling content. And yeah, some of the sports bettors watch because they bet the game.

[Bill Simmons]

Caitlin, five plus threes with Indiana to win part. Yeah, that's just where we are with some sports viewership at this point. Did you.

[Kathy Engelbert]

But I know like I became an NFL fan cause I have five brothers and I started playing fantasy football.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Kathy Engelbert]

And so I knew I had Tim Brown. I'll never forget it. And you know, I had. This was way back. And so that caused me then to watch games. So same thing here. I think more people are coming to watch the game from that fan segment we call it.

[Bill Simmons]

So you're kind of stuck with your schedule now going May, October, there's no way to go to 50 games. It's just too hard with the basketball playoffs.

[Kathy Engelbert]

The problem is every other year we have an international competition. So next year it'll be the FIBA World cup then two years after that we have LA28, which we love. I mean the Olympics are. I mean the fact that the women won eight consecutive gold medals, the US Women's National Basketball team and they're going for their ninth all time record in LA is amazing. So we have to support those international competitions. I can definitely see us going to 50. I don't know what it's collectively bargain. So right now the max is 44. And the question is, do we want to go into November and crossover with the NBA and college basketball and then because there's not much people don't understand, there's not much you can do on the front end. Because we love the college draft. We love the rookies, a lot of rookies.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you're also.

[Dave Jacoby]

You have.

[Bill Simmons]

The college season ends like April 4th.

[Kathy Engelbert]

Yeah. We can't start it much earlier. I mean again in a year like last year, like Caitlin gets, goes to the final game, gets drafted the following Monday night and is in training camp the following Sunday.

[Bill Simmons]

And she was luggage for the first month of the season. Like that was, that was pretty hard.

[Kathy Engelbert]

Since she was 4 years old or whatever and didn't get a great.

[Bill Simmons]

So.

[Kathy Engelbert]

So again this year we had a little more time. We had like two and a half weeks between the draft and, and opening of training camp. But yeah, it's, it's a challenge on the front end. You can't move it too much forward if you want the rookies to come in, which we do because it's a great, it's a great theater system for us, as you said. And then. So we'll look at the back end and how far can we go and how many NFL and college football Saturdays can we go into? And we'll evaluate all that under. Under the cba.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, it's interesting. The WNBA is actually good for fantasy. You just made me think of that when you were talking before about the football fantasy. Because NBA fantasy stinks now because the season's too long and all the injuries and guys go. And it's just like there's no rhyme or reason to it. And I was like an original. I was playing fantasy basketball in the 80s. WNBA is actually. Because the shorter season works better now. You got my brains turning.

[Kathy Engelbert]

I'm. ESPN does have a product. They have an ESPN fantasy league. Women's for the wnba. Women's basketball, it's called. So. Yeah, so they do have one just I think the last two years or so.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. All right. All right. Sounds like everything's going good.

[Kathy Engelbert]

Yeah. Bill.

[Bill Simmons]

Five years for you. Four years, five years, what is it?

[Kathy Engelbert]

It'll be six years in July. So the first year was all blur because it was Covid. Yeah, yeah, we forget. Covid was like, right. Not that long ago, but seems like forever ago. So. Yeah, I feel like. So the first year, really, during COVID that's when I handed Asia Wilson her first MVP and. And now three time MVP with your own shoe. Oh, the other thing, Bill, that's been amazing to watch from where I sit is when I joined the league, not one player had a significant endorsement with a big brand, except for maybe their sneaker brand, but they weren't big. And now there's almost a commercial break in any major sport where you're not seeing the WNBA player in the commercial spot. It's pretty cool to watch whether it's CarMax, whether it's AT&T Delta now on the seat back on a Delta plane, they filmed a commercial with three of our players, Stewie and Nika Gumike. And it's just incredible what brands have done to step up to support these players too, individually. Like, we have league deals with them, but we also have, they also have personal endorsements now. And so that's been a great part about the growth of the league. And I always said, if 80% of every household consumer purchasing decision in the US has made or influenced by a woman, why wouldn't you endorse a WNBA player?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, they missed the boat with Taurasi because she's the best.

[Kathy Engelbert]

I do.

[Bill Simmons]

I can't believe they. She's the absolute best.

[Kathy Engelbert]

Yeah, she's the goat. She got voted the goat in our 2020.

[Bill Simmons]

But also cool. Like she's, she's a great hang. She's just cool. Like, I, I don't, I never understood that one.

[Kathy Engelbert]

I know. And now I thank God. If I was the commissioner 20 years ago, would it be different? Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Who knows? She should have been more famous. I, I need a team this year. Last year I had the links because I, I bet on them halfway through the season, almost, almost pulled it off. But this year, because, you know, Boston doesn't have a team yet.

[Kathy Engelbert]

So I just look at, look at, look at Phoenix, look at Seattle, look at. Obviously Indy has. Really?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I think I might bet, I might bandwagon it and just bet on the Fever to win the, win the title. Just jump right on there.

[Kathy Engelbert]

But yeah, our free agency this year, Bill, it's another thing that changed in the cba. Our free agency was a lot better this year than I thought. But next year, fasten your seatbelt. 80% of the veterans in this league will be free agents.

[Dave Jacoby]

Wow.

[Kathy Engelbert]

And we'll run two expansion drafts. So one expansion draft up for two teams.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, that's right.

[Kathy Engelbert]

It's going to be crazy. It's going to be crazy. The 20. And that'll be our 30th season, Bill. So really looking forward to that.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, congrats. You guys are in great shape. Thanks for coming on. I'm glad you're doing well. Don't expand too fast.

[Kathy Engelbert]

All right.

[Bill Simmons]

Settle the CBA thing. Keep the league going. All right. Good to see you. Thanks for coming on.

[Kathy Engelbert]

All right. Thanks, Bill. Anytime at a game.

[Bill Simmons]

All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Gahao and Eduardo. Thanks to Kathy Engelbert for joining us. Thanks to my old friend Dave Jacoby. Love that guy. Great to have him aboard. And I'm going to be back in 24 hours after OKC and Denver game six. You can watch it live on YouTube on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. I'll see you 24 hours. Must be 21 plus in president select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + in President D.C. gambling problem. Call 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-887-89-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplianma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-Hopeny or text hopeny in New York.