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The Bill Simmons Podcast
The NBA Playoffs Mega-Preview. Plus, Awards Picks With Rob Mahoney, Chris Ryan, and Brian Windhorst
02:48:52
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- [00:00]
Bill Simmons
You're listening to the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel. FanDuel Sportsbook is the best place to bet on the NBA. We have these fun little Tuesday Friday player performance stuff. We have same game parlays. We have picks for me sometimes and boosts and all kinds of fun things. Get ready in the playoffs. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app today to get in on the action. And by the way, the Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit theringer.com RG to learn more. Listen to the end of this episode for additional details. Must be 21/president select states gaming problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com Coming up, an NBA playoff mega preview. Plus I'm going to do my NBA awards picks and a whole lot more. It's all next. This episode is brought to you by the Wells Fargo Active Cash Credit Card. This is an ad for the Active Cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small. So so whether it's buying tickets to the game with your mom or grabbing a coffee with your dog, earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases made with it. Say it with me. The Active Cash credit card from Wells Fargo. Learn more@wells Fargo.com ActiveCash terms apply. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. New rewatchables coming for you on Monday. You can watch all the old episodes we've done on that feed, which is a video podcast now on Spotify plus Ringer movies are you YouTube channel. You can watch all the clips from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. We are a video podcast now, which I hope you realize. Celtic City so We have episode 8 coming on Monday night and it's the one about how everything turns in the 2000s heading into the KG era. It's really good. You're not gonna believe this, but KG is a good interview so you can check that out on Monday night. But in the meantime, because there's no basketball, we have a couple playing games and then everything kicks in this weekend. But go check out Celtic City on Max. The first seven episodes are up. I was on Jimmy Kimmel Live last night promoting. It was great to go back. It's been 21 years since I worked for that show, which is incredible, right? Right now there's 21 year old people probably insulting me and Jimmy on social media right now. That's how long it's been since I worked there, but it was awesome to go back. Coming up on this podcast, Rob Mahoney and Chris Ryan join me. We're going to preview our favorite Round 1 playoff series and then I'm going to do my NBA Awards picks and bounce them off those guys once and for all. So that happened. And then a couple days ago, Brian Windhorst came over to watch one of the playing games with me and we just went into my office and we taped an hour plus about just a whole bunch of evergreen basketball talk, which was really fun. It was great to see him. I've known him for a long time. So that is today's podcast. First, our friends from Pearl Jib. All right, recording this part of the podcast on late Thursday morning Pacific time. Rob Mahoney is here. Chris Ryan, the NBA Culture Ombudsman of the Ringer is here.
- [03:27]
Rob Mahoney
That's a great new title.
- [03:28]
Bill Simmons
Big picture Czar of the Ringer. You just kind of float in with takes. We're gonna try on some Thursday nights at least to have the three of us reacting off of some of these games. But I wanted to go through my NBA Awards stuff with you later. I'm going to talk about the series first because we just got news that Dame Lillard is playing in this Buck series and the Bucs Pacer series now is is a stealth most fun possibility for Round one Mahoney series you're most looking forward to out of the eight. Now we don't know the two play in matchups yet, but I we assume those are going to be blowouts. But what's your what's your favorite out of these eight?
- [04:04]
Chris Ryan
It's Rockets Warriors. I just think it has all the juice you could ask for, all the animosity. You could ask for a lot of people who are just kind of assholes to play against. And I mean that in a very complimen. So between like the, you know, jet fuel athleticism against the old savvy champions angle, plus all of that going on, like I I find it hard to pick anything else.
- [04:25]
Bill Simmons
Cr that checks a lot of your boxes too.
- [04:28]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I kind of wish they would bring in soccer yellow cards to this series where they could just flash a bunch of them in the beginning. I'm really excited for this one. I was really nervous for the warriors watching that Grizz game. Watching the Grizzlies come back felt like the warriors crowd kind of died a little bit in the second half as like they were getting clawed back into it.
- [04:48]
Bill Simmons
They got a little Nervous?
- [04:50]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. And just you never want to go into the playoffs with your two best players grabbing at various extremities. So Steph's thumb, Jimmy's ankle. I'm excited to watch this very, you know, version of the warriors, but the Rockets do seem like they were built in a lab to screw with them.
- [05:06]
Chris Ryan
You know, what makes all that stuff better is when Dylan Brooks karate chops it. You know, just take some body blows from a Steven Adams screen, you know, Amen Thompson blocking your shit. I'm sure it's going to go great for everybody.
- [05:17]
Bill Simmons
Well, Stephen Adams has already reminded everyone that Draymond has kicked him in the balls two different times over the course of his career. Like, that's not even a top three feud in this series.
- [05:26]
Rob Mahoney
It would be amazing if, like, as tip off was starting, like a cage match, cage came down and it was just Dillon Brooks and Draymond in the middle. And it was like, we're going to.
- [05:35]
Bill Simmons
Settle this right now, brother. I had a couple warriors fans in my life who were very upset at me because Mahoney and I did a podcast after the Lakers warriors game, and both of us were like, that was really interesting. The warriors really seem like they have a handle on a Lakers matchup. We liked what we saw. Like, that team makes sense to us as a win multiple rounds. And then after that Clippers game, I expressed real concern like, that they didn't totally look like they knew who they were again. And Zach and I talked about that on his pod on Monday. I didn't even know about the Kaminga benching until the next day. I thought he was hurt. And it just seems like they punted on Kaminga. And this is Rob a different team than they were when we did that Lakers warriors pod, where I thought Kaminga, I think he brings them something extra athletically, physically, just as a bigger body. If they're playing Kawhi Leonard, LeBron James again against Houston, who has a bunch of physical wings, it just seemed. And they're going to play a big lineup. It just seems like you need them. But the warriors are done with them, and now I feel like they seem really small in this series. This is a classic small ball, big ball kind of matchup. I'm way more worried about them than I was two weeks ago. Is that recency bias or what do you think it is?
- [06:52]
Chris Ryan
I think they've kind of always been that team and they've shown some of those limitations. As far as, you know, how much do you trust Golden State in the half court? The Good news is probably you trust the Rockets less in terms of executing their half court offense, and so this matchup works for them. But I agree with you, they're very small.
- [07:08]
Brian Windhorst
They.
- [07:08]
Chris Ryan
The Kuminga element is such a, A, Such a perfect encapsulation of the warriors, who I think at every turn have prioritized rowing in the same direction, philosophical alignment as opposed to, oh, what's like the other counter element that we can bring in to give us a different speed, a different punch. Other coaches, other teams, other structures might welcome a Jonathan Kaminga type under those circumstances.
- [07:30]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [07:30]
Chris Ryan
But also, is he got. Is he really the answer? You know, if you're, if you're struggling with a LeBron or you're struggling with a Luka or one of these teams that have big wings at any point in the playoffs, if you're struggling with Tari Eason, for that matter, is Jonathan Kuminga really the solution? I, I'm, I'm still a little skeptical of that, even though I respect the talent.
- [07:47]
Bill Simmons
Or was he the best possible solution out of all the other available options they had? But they, you know, CR. You mentioned we. The Curry injury possibility, Butler, just the fact that it's an older team and you have this young, hungry team of pit bulls going against them that also has home court advantage. I can't figure this series out. What, what are you, What. What are you looking at?
- [08:10]
Brian Windhorst
On.
- [08:11]
Rob Mahoney
You can tell me at the end of this series that this was like a version of like the early great Thunder teams that came out and just ripped the spurs apart. You know, like where they, they lost the first two and then they just. It wasn't that they won the next four after losing two to the Spurs.
- [08:28]
Bill Simmons
You could also tell, right? Yeah.
- [08:30]
Rob Mahoney
And you could also tell me that this is too much, too soon for Houston and that Wiley Wise, Golden State are going to carve these guys to pieces. It feels like a real, like, Clash of the Titans to me. And in terms of like, the two coaches are both awesome, I think that everything offsets itself. So there's like, you can't say that Draymond and Jimmy are gonna mentally dominate the Rockets guys or like, trick them too much because the Rockets have plenty of guys who are just like, I live this dark arts shit too. So it's gonna be like one of those, like, I don't want to miss a single moment of this series. I'm sentimentally hoping for warriors to advance just because love watching Steph in big, big moments. And I feel like the Rockets are going to be around for the next five, six, seven years.
- [09:16]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, there's. There's some NBA historical stuff with this series that makes me nervous for the Warriors. One of the things that makes me nervous is Tuesday night they got 75 points from Stefan Butler. Right. That's about as good as those guys are going to play in a big game. And they barely beat a Memphis team that doesn't play defense. Right. So you look at that and you're like, all right, that's your best case scenario. If you're not playing Kaminga, you have no other wild cards for points. Kind of need those guys. Maybe you'll have some, some variance with some threes. Yeah, for the most part, you need Butler and, and, and Curry to be between 60 and 65 points realistically. And Butler's not, you know, in the playoffs. He's been a little different as we, we've written about. But, you know, it's a lot of points. It's a lot of points to make up. So unless it's a rock fight from Houston side, I really worry about the upside of Houston. If I'm a Golden State fan, sure that there's. Is there another level this team can go to? What is AMA and Thompson going to be like, on a giant stage like this, where it's like, hey, yo, shut down Curry, make this your goal for two weeks. Take this guy out. What happens if they're just throwing big physical swings against Butler over and over again? And then the offensive rebounding in the big boy lineups. Sengun, Draymond guarding, trying to guard Shangoon. This, to me, is a series where you could tell me they have those bets where you can bet on any outcome on FanDuel. Like, Houston in 5 is plus 7, 90. Golden State in 7 is plus 5 30. You could give me any of those bets. I'd be like, yeah, I could see it. Warriors sweep them. Sure. Maybe Rockets sweep them. All right. Warriors are minus 166 favorites. Rob, did that surprise you? Because Rockets have home court.
- [11:02]
Chris Ryan
It doesn't surprise me. I think I take everything you're saying about the physicality, the athleticism, and I want to reinforce, like, both of these things can be true. The Rockets have had an amazing season that has been super fun to watch in terms of a young team that's just well ahead of the curve. But if you are a young team that's ahead of the curve, I don't want to see a, like a Steph Curry in a series, a Jimmy Butler in a series, a Draymond Green in A series. Like there's a level of collective savvy there, especially between those three that has been so comfortable and so natural. Like we've seen them run these just seamless 3 man actions as if they've been playing together for years. And that's where I think you get some of those random points. Right? If those three guys are in concert, Quinton Post is going to spring open for some threes. Gary Payton's going to, you know, go baseline for some dunks and get some cuts. Like you're going to get random points out of that stuff because the Rockets eventually are going to freak out. And so it doesn't surprise me that the warriors are favored despite being the undercard in the series. I just think there's so much respect for them and there's so much even sentimental value. As you were saying, Chris, a lot of us kind of want to see it and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of bettors kind of want to see it.
- [12:05]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I don't want to be in a world where the warriors made that Butler move a year too late, which is entirely possible. But I want to believe in another warriors run. And it's kind of funny with the NBA where I, you know, my. The season of the team that I cheer for like exploded on takeoff.
- [12:22]
Bill Simmons
So I forget who's your team?
- [12:25]
Rob Mahoney
I have been sort of roving around, but like this is almost like. Previously on the Golden State Warriors. Things were going fine, so I need you guys to level set for me. Like I don't really remember the fourth best player on a team getting benched going into the playoffs.
- [12:42]
Bill Simmons
It's not good. Well, you mentioned some of these young guys, the Rockets, that we don't know what we're getting. The warriors have guys who have never been in a situation where they've been counted on in a series. Like this guy Santos might have to play.
- [12:55]
Chris Ryan
I mean, you don't know GI Santos's background. He could have played high level competitive basketball anywhere.
- [13:01]
Bill Simmons
Moody. They actually really, really, genuinely need big stretches from. They need him to guard whoever is hot. Like if Jalen Green's having a hot game ultimately I think it's probably going to be him guarding that. They're going to need people to protect the boards. There might. This might be a dust off Kavan Looney series. We might see Jackson Davis who we haven't seen him forever. I just. If the thing that worries me the most out of all this shit other than the home court is I haven't seen a better. Nobody believes In a situation, in a round, one in a while, you have this Rockets team that's had the two seed locked up for a week that already is pissed off and has an edge and has a coach who could not be less afraid of Steph Curry and LeBron and has already talked shit to both of them in the last year. And he's going to get these guys. I watched him do it in Boston. Nobody believes in you. We're underdogs even though we don't have game seven. Steph is the favored, you know, the favorite character during the week. Yeah, yeah. Everyone's against us. The refs are going to be against us. We're going to go. We're going to have Golden State fans in our arena. Nobody thinks we can do this. I just feel like he's going to be pushing that, pushing that. But the question for me, cr who is the guy? There's going to be three games in this series with three minutes left and now I have to match baskets with Curry and Butler. Who's it going to be?
- [14:20]
Rob Mahoney
I was going to ask this and I was going to ask about the dangers of Dylan Brooks thinking it's him.
- [14:24]
Bill Simmons
Well, you could go through. We could have a draft that's like, what if Fred Van Vuitt thinks it's him? What if Dillon Brooks thinks it's him? We could get ugly pretty fast.
- [14:33]
Chris Ryan
Yeah, Jalen Green also will think it's him. This is kind of part of the Rockets conundrum is they don't have a natural level set. Like they don't have a place where when everything goes to shit, the ball finds a certain guy. It's a little bit clawing it out and sometimes it is like Alper and Sengun making ugly stuff sort of work and fighting through like fighting through pressure, fighting through good defense. I don't really trust their half court offense at all in terms of the first shot. The question with them, as we kind of saw in that Memphis game for Golden State as well, is how many second chances are you giving up? Especially if they stick as big as the Rockets usually want to play like they. It may not be. It may not matter if Fred Van Vliet shoots 36% from the field if you're just constantly getting second opportunities.
- [15:15]
Rob Mahoney
Bill, will you give me the money to go to GoDaddy and register a site called he thought it was him.com and every night after one of these games I just put up a picture of the Rocket who thought it was him.
- [15:28]
Bill Simmons
It's Jack Landale. Didn't expect to see him. I was trying to think of what the narrative. It's a fun exercise when you're trying to think of what's going to happen to just think what the narratives would be after the series and what's leading a podcast title. What they're talking about on first take with the Golden State. The ones are easy, like, oh, my God, Steph did it again.
- [15:50]
Chris Ryan
Yes.
- [15:51]
Bill Simmons
Wow. They just beat a team that, that, that was definitely better than them. Oh, my God. Playoff. Jimmy. The whole thing is, is that want.
- [15:58]
Chris Ryan
For that moment of like the, the warriors are back. It's another Steph run. Is that a healthy thing for us? Like, I, I, I struggle with that of like, do our, our clinging to guys like Steph or LeBron, are we clinging to them in the way that I'm clinging to? Like Tom Cruise jumping out of a jet? Like, is it coming at the cost of something?
- [16:15]
Rob Mahoney
I'm ready for Austin Butler. You know what I mean?
- [16:17]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah.
- [16:17]
Rob Mahoney
Like, I'm ready for that's I'm in Thompson.
- [16:19]
Chris Ryan
I think I'm.
- [16:20]
Rob Mahoney
I, I for for as bad as it might be for ratings or for narratives, I' of new blood, you know, people might be like, who the hell wants to watch Houston OKC in the Western Conference finals? Like, I think it would be a pretty awesome series.
- [16:32]
Bill Simmons
Would be awesome.
- [16:33]
Chris Ryan
I would love that.
- [16:33]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [16:34]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. From a narrative standpoint, I think the guys that could come out of it from Houston's side are Shen Goon.
- [16:40]
Chris Ryan
Yes.
- [16:41]
Bill Simmons
And clearly Thompson, which I think there's a disparity now between the people that actually give a shit about basketball and watch it. A lot of them work for us and they're. It's to say, hey, have you seen Thompson? This guy's incredible. It's. You're not breaking any new ground, but there's a whole level of casual fans that I don't think have any idea what's going on with him, how athletically, how different he is. There are some people that voted for him for defensive player of the year, have him in the top three. I had him second team, all defense. It made me rethink. Like, did I, did I fuck that up? But in person, it's unbelievable. And what he did to Steph a week ago or a week and a half ago now, it was notable. All right, so we have that as the most unpredictable, ready for anything series. The other one I'd put in that category, guys, is Pacers Bucks. With Dame playing this Pacers team that has looked awesome for the last three months, basically, right. They the if you look at the conference odds, they're 28 to 1 to win the east. And I think those odds are nuts. I think those odds should be way lower because they are going to play. If they beat Milwaukee, they're playing Cleveland in round two. And I think they could throw some haymakers at Cleveland. I just think 28 to 1, like, if you consider, like if they beat Milwaukee and now you have to be Cleveland, maybe something happens to Boston, maybe there's an injury. They're better than a 28 to 1 win. The East Dame playing now, I think is going to screw up the odds and make people think Milwaukee has a chance. Giannis is the best player in the series. CR why don't people believe in the Pacers yet?
- [18:16]
Rob Mahoney
I don't think they've gotten a chance to watch them. I think that this is like a good corollary, maybe even to the Rockets, where your difference between I watch national games and kind of keep up on pods versus I am out here just getting deep into Nemhardt tape is pretty, pretty wide gap. And I would probably say that I'm a little bit in the former camp. So it's like I, I, I know everything that has gone on with the Bucks this season. They are getting Portis back as well. Is that right? I don't know what the last game with that, but like, look, I just think that it would be so funny if the Pacers just got like a weird slip and slide track back to the Eastern Conference finals again and that this was like a sneaky, great team. I do think best player in the series has got to be honest, and I still think I'm kind of leaning that way.
- [19:07]
Chris Ryan
Yeah, I mean, The Dame, Elliott, C.R.
- [19:09]
Bill Simmons
That'S your take. Giannis is the best guy in the series.
- [19:11]
Rob Mahoney
Well, you want a big picture?
- [19:13]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, that was a big one.
- [19:15]
Rob Mahoney
I'm also not a cardiologist. Like, I don't know what's going on with Dame's like this blood clot thing.
- [19:19]
Bill Simmons
It did make me a little nervous though. Like, no, now he's fine. Yeah, thing went away. It was, it was miraculous. But yeah, it's definitely a mark. Do you think Indiana is underrated or properly rated?
- [19:29]
Chris Ryan
Rob Underrated almost perpetually. But I think some of that is the struggling out of the gate earlier in the season, the skepticism that Chris is talking about in terms of, you know, like their playoff run last year, I think felt so fluky to a lot of people based on the injuries in the field, based on some of the opportunities.
- [19:44]
Rob Mahoney
It felt Blazery.
- [19:45]
Chris Ryan
Yeah, it felt a little blazery. I think that's fair. But I also think they seized every opportunity in front of them and I think they've continued to do that and really righted the ship, not just offensively, but defensively. So I am happy to be neck deep in Andrew Nemhard tape and to be an advocate for the Pacers here on a national platform. I think they've been really, really good. I think they're better than most people realize and I think ultimately more balanced than most people realize between the depth and the defense that they've played over the back part of the season. There's a really good team, top to bottom.
- [20:12]
Bill Simmons
My biggest issue with them is how stupid they are at the end of game sometimes. Yeah, they're my number one draft pick for. I can't believe you guys just lost that game. They had to have been the number one team that, that you would say that about this year. And I was looking at like some of the odds with them, like to sweep the bucks. It's plus 9, 20, and that's insane. They're not going to sweep the Bucks. They're better than the Bucks. They could just put four awesome games together and Giannis could have his 35 and 20 inning game and they could still beat them if they shot. Well, I think there's too much three point variance with them. The Bucks are plus 4. 90 to win in six and plus 540 to win in seven. And the scenario that would scare me if I was a Pacers fan is you lead the series and you're like, how the fuck did we lose that series? We were up nine in game one. We turned the ball over three times. All of a sudden the Bucks are down two and Dame hits a three and we just blew the game. They do this shit over and over again. And this is one of those. I don't know if I'm even touching the Series from a gambling standpoint. I don't know what to expect. I don't really want to bet against Giannis. Cause Rob, he seems like he is like been pushed to the edge. He's John Wick, My dog has died.
- [21:24]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, but you can't tell whether it's. It's Keanu Reeves being. I keep getting injured on these movies. This needs to end.
- [21:30]
Bill Simmons
Right?
- [21:30]
Rob Mahoney
Or if he's like, you fucking woke up the Baba Yaga. I'm back. I'm here to take my cornerback.
- [21:38]
Chris Ryan
And that's where I think the Dame return is such a huge deal. It completely changes the Matchup. It also changes it from I am a battered man who had to carry this team over the finish line for the back part of the season. I'm dragging Ryan Rollins on offense to make this thing work. And now you have potentially a really potent shot maker returning to the field. I thought before the Pacers were going to win in a fairly short series, like, I probably. I picked Pacers in five, thinking Dame was not going to play him. Coming back at some point buys them time. I just don't think they have enough kind of like secondary and tertiary answers like Dame, in whatever state he's in is going to be out of shape, out of rhythm, coming back into it already. It's had kind of a weird season in terms of the actual impact he's making on the game and beyond him. You're like, I'm really living and dying with Kyle Kuzma here, and that's not something that I like to do personally, but live your life.
- [22:27]
Bill Simmons
I think that was a. Was that a Michael Mann movie in the 80s.
- [22:30]
Brian Windhorst
To live and die.
- [22:32]
Rob Mahoney
To live and die in Kuzma.
- [22:36]
Bill Simmons
I'm probably gonna lean Pacers by the time it comes to gut check time for when to make a bet, because two reasons. It's impossible to overstate how involved Kevin Porter is in the future of the Bucks right now.
- [22:49]
Chris Ryan
Jesus Christ.
- [22:50]
Bill Simmons
They were really, really relying on him, and I think they actually need him to be at Indiana, and that is such a wild card for so many different reasons. And he also needs the ball and, you know, to integrate Dame back into that. And there's Porter. That's one thing. The other thing is something you mentioned about Dame, Rob. The. The fact that he, you know, he hasn't played basketball in three weeks. This was always kind of a bad matchup for him because the Pacers love to pressure 94ft.
- [23:16]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [23:16]
Bill Simmons
And they love to just bug people and make them work to bring it up. And it's like, oh, you're going to have Giannis bring the ball up or we're going to. We're going to guard him almost all court. And I think they're going to try to put Miles on Dame. And I think you're asking a lot for him to just be like, hey, I know you haven't played in a month. I know you're on this blood. Blood thinner medication. Oh, by the way, we're going to be pressuring you this whole game and attacking you on defense. It's a lot. It would be, like, heroic if they won the series. Kazam. So I the safe pick is Indy here and that's why the line is what it is.
- [23:47]
Chris Ryan
Yes. The heroic language though, reminds me of in Shams report about Dame coming back. Amazing colon. It was very like the language of the blood thinner thing, which is amazing. Is very impressive. I have no idea how he's medically cleared to play. The framing of it from Shams, with all due respect, was a little bit like Trump's annual physical to me. That was the kind of vibe I was getting about like everything's great.
- [24:09]
Bill Simmons
The wealthiest man in America. Right. Four feet managing body fat narratives coming out of this one. CR if Milwaukee loses, we're just on the clock now for Giannis trade stuff. That's it. Is that maybe that should be another GoDaddy.com purchase for you.
- [24:26]
Rob Mahoney
Has Yanis asked out yet dot com.
- [24:28]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, yeah.
- [24:28]
Rob Mahoney
But like, you know, listening to you over the last couple of days, you and Zach on, on Zach's pod, like it is sort of starting to get a little difficult to imagine these massive star trades unless it's your problem for my problem.
- [24:41]
Chris Ryan
Yeah.
- [24:41]
Rob Mahoney
So I do wonder, let's just say like do, do you have a Phoenix Milwaukee, like crisis swap? Is there, is there something in there that you could do? I don't know. But these guys are also are going to leverage like use their leverage and control their destination to some extent. So I'm trying to it's hard to go into the trade machine and be like, oh yeah, well obviously you just do this for Giannis. I know that there is the rumors about him wanting to go to New York and stuff like that, or even the broader New York, like it doesn't matter the borough. But I, I think we'll learn a lot from this playoff series.
- [25:14]
Bill Simmons
CR don't step on my podcast in 15 days when I go through all the possible teams, please. No, I, I my money would be on Brooklyn or the Knicks because you talk about how hard it is to match the salaries. There's a towns Giannis like very easy flip you can do. Sadly, the Knicks have nothing else to throw in the trade. But you know, he's probably going to pick the trade. But I would bet on Brooklyn if I had to because I think Brooklyn's sitting there with a lot of assets and some other moves they can pieces they can put together. Well, that's I just don't want to read another Kevin Durant. Well, I don't want to read another Kevin Durant. He's let's just put him on the Timberwolves next year unless somebody can figure out the part where the Suns are going to be like cool, sign and trade for Randall. Sign us up. That's not oh, and you have no picks. That sounds great too. So we'll just get Julius Randle and Rob Dillingham for kd. Great. Let's talk to my favorite series Nuggets Clippers, A line that has moved dramatically. The Clippers are now favored -118 favorites. Denver in five is +620. Clippers in five is +680. I think it's going longer than five. Denver is six +5 70. That would mean they want they won in LA Clippers and six is +350. And then if you think it's going seven which would be in Denver +410 for Denver +5 70 for LAC and that none of us are allowed to talk about the Kawhi's been hurt every year in the playoffs and you have to factor that in. We all know Rob feels like a long, awesome, Incredible Spurs Clippers 2015 ish series to me. And as I've said a million times, I think the Clippers are the second best team in the West. I think they're a real threat and I think if Jokic can beat them, this would be way up there with anything he's done basketball wise.
- [27:19]
Chris Ryan
I mean, that's kind of why I don't want to over index on that Clippers warriors game too much because the Clippers just became one of the toughest matchups for basically every team in the Western Conference field over a matter of like five weeks. They're a really tough Jokic matchup. Like Zhou plays him pretty well, I think gives them a chance to play it. Honestly, if they want to try to do that, and I suspect they will. This feels like a temperature check series to me. On how you feel about Jamal Murray And Michael Porter Jr. Do you?
- [27:45]
Bill Simmons
Oh, like long term, long term.
- [27:47]
Chris Ryan
Long term in particular. But even in within this series, like we know Denver's depth is an issue. We know that they're not once they go, you know, beyond their seventh guy, even sometimes their sixth guy, to be honest with you, things can get dicey. But if Jamal Murray isn't fully healthy and he's kind of inching his way back and more or less playoff Jamal Murray, they're going to have problems. And If Michael Porter Jr. Has those games where he's a little spotty and the shot isn't hitting and all of a sudden he has 11 points in a mostly ineffectual game, that's a huge problem for Denver against this Clippers team that all of a sudden just has all of the pieces to put it together.
- [28:18]
Bill Simmons
You didn't talk about their bench.
- [28:20]
Chris Ryan
I'm trying to talk around it. I'm trying to be nice.
- [28:22]
Bill Simmons
Well, it's going to be the top five guys on the Nuggets are going to have to play 38 to 41 minutes a game.
- [28:28]
Chris Ryan
Yep.
- [28:29]
Bill Simmons
And I think Jokic is going to have to be in the low 40s for them to, like, every second he's out of the game is going to be a disaster for them. What do you see? Narrative God. Chris Ryan.
- [28:39]
Rob Mahoney
I'm very interested to see Adelman's first playoffs against Ty Lue. It's probably the best team I have ever seen switch coaches this late into a season. And does that give them a spark? Does that give them any, like, tactical wrinkles? And how much can Lube think. Think on his feet and negate that because he's probably one of the best in the league, along with Spolstra at doing stuff like that. The joker talk towards the end of the season of, like, what did he say? Like, a caged beast is a wounded animal, dangerous animal or whatever? Like, I'm like, let me watch this in slow motion, dude. I just want to, like, watch back cuts all day long. I'm so excited for that. But Adelman under the lights is, like, a really interesting question and, like, whether he does something different than the than the Malone teams we've been seeing over the last couple of postseasons.
- [29:26]
Bill Simmons
What prestige TV character does Adelman look like? To me? He looks like the embattled PR person in succession who's getting screamed at by Kendall.
- [29:34]
Rob Mahoney
I have to give them a statement.
- [29:36]
Bill Simmons
Kendall, we gotta tell them something. And he's just getting berated. Um, I, I if Kawhi is healthy, I, I just think the Clippers are winning this series. As great as Jokic is, I think you can give him any stat line in the series, and I'm not sure it matters. They have so many people to throw at Murray. This is a nightmare series for Murray. Just let's start there, and we're gonna see a lot of Kristan, and we're gonna see a lot of Nuggets welcoming Chris Don to shoot from wherever he wants. Sure, go ahead. You can have that. But then he comes out. Let's go. Hey, have you met Derek Jones Jr. Yet? And I assume Batum's playing. Hey, have you met. Have you met Nick Batum? Cause now you're gonna have him for four minutes. And I just think it's going to be really hard for them to get on track. They're going to use all the Westbrook minutes against them.
- [30:24]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, my God, I forgot about that.
- [30:25]
Bill Simmons
And, and then Zubots, like, here's another thing. Jokic doesn't want to get in foul trouble in these games. And if he's going to guard Zubots, the Clippers are really good when they throw it to him. Teams over always overreact. They always send a second guy and if they try to guard him straight up with, with Joker, he's going to, he's going to try to put some, some heat on them. They're also a really good offensive rebounding team. Jokic is the only guy who rebounds on this team. Nobody else gets a rebound.
- [30:53]
Chris Ryan
I mean, it's basically just him, Aaron Gordon, erasure.
- [30:55]
Bill Simmons
But largely, I'm just saying, like, if they need a big rebound, he's usually the one getting it. So now he's got to keep up Zoo. And then, then there's a separate Kawhi piece.
- [31:05]
Rob Mahoney
Can I get a temperature check on Big game James under the hot lights.
- [31:09]
Bill Simmons
And this is. Now you're. Now you're going case for Denver. Best player in the series. We've seen this James Harden play before.
- [31:17]
Chris Ryan
We have.
- [31:18]
Bill Simmons
And Kawhi Leonard, just when you think it's going great, it's like the Dunstan. It's like in Presumed Innocent when they get what was that dumb episode one extra guy had the fake heart attack next week. Is he going to wake up?
- [31:30]
Chris Ryan
Oh, he's fine.
- [31:31]
Rob Mahoney
It was just fine, though.
- [31:33]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, it was. He's okay. But Kawhi is the dun, dun cliffhanger just waiting to happen with Harden too.
- [31:40]
Chris Ryan
Honestly, like, Harden did not have great games against the Nuggets this year, but Kawhi didn't play in any of them, I believe so. Having Kawhi on the floor dramatically changes every matchup, changes the defensive priorities. And in particular, like to tie this into what you were saying, Bill, about Jokic and foul trouble, it's not just like battling Zoo on the block. It's not just fighting him, fending him off for rebounds. It's you're going to be in a ton of pick and roll all night because James Harden is going to have the ball that is going to be his primary use. Like, you're going to have to hang in that and not get too handsy along the way. And every foul for Jokic could mean a lot in the same that every foul for Zoo could too.
- [32:15]
Bill Simmons
Well, And Kendall, Roy's PR guy, who I think seemed like he did a decent job in those last couple games, but he's going against, I think, one of the best four or five coaching staffs in the league. And it a staff that is really committed to defense and disciplined on what they want to do and is just really smart. Everyone's on the same page. They'll bench dudes that, you know, don't look great. They'll take them out. We didn't mention the Ben Simmons piece of this. Chris.
- [32:40]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. Some of my faves.
- [32:43]
Bill Simmons
I don't know what your relationship is with the other BS at this point.
- [32:46]
Chris Ryan
But I'm gonna guess estranged.
- [32:48]
Bill Simmons
I have. Estranged might be the answer.
- [32:51]
Rob Mahoney
We're in a real wish him well zone.
- [32:53]
Bill Simmons
Oh, the sarcastic wish them well?
- [32:56]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. Yeah.
- [32:57]
Bill Simmons
Okay.
- [32:58]
Rob Mahoney
I'm excited for Ben. I'm excited for.
- [33:01]
Bill Simmons
Which excited. What part are you excited about, Ben? When they go to zone and he doesn't know what to do if they do hack a bench if he takes a shot. What are you excited about Ben?
- [33:12]
Rob Mahoney
Getting hack of Ben shooting in front of the wall in Inglewood. Like shooting in front of the crowd wall. I'm excited for that.
- [33:18]
Chris Ryan
No, no.
- [33:20]
Bill Simmons
I. My guess would be he gets phased out of this series as it goes along because I think there's too many unplayable things about him. The other thing with. With all the rest, Zubots always plays big minutes anyway.
- [33:32]
Chris Ryan
Yeah.
- [33:32]
Bill Simmons
And it's gotten to the point with him where if he's. If he's, you know, if he's out of the lineup, you really feel it. But they get.
- [33:41]
Chris Ryan
They get away with playing batum at the five. Sometimes, especially like the non Jokic minutes are such a wild card in terms of what kinds of fake centers you can throw out there. I don't see a reason why that has to happen.
- [33:51]
Bill Simmons
One other thing, guys, I gotta mention this. They really have a home court advantage now, the Clippers. There's real energy in that arena. Denver's not gonna have a lot of fans there. But that's. It's not swinging games. We're not. It's never going to be the 80s again where you could just put five loud people behind the bench and just have them berate people if they were.
- [34:10]
Rob Mahoney
The only five people there. Yeah.
- [34:12]
Bill Simmons
Right now it's, you know, there's just a nice energy to it. So narratives. Oh, go.
- [34:18]
Brian Windhorst
Oh.
- [34:18]
Rob Mahoney
I wanted to ask you a question. Whether you saw any parallels between the Denver situation and the Milwaukee situation. Not that joker would ever ask out, but, like, how different could this Nuggets team look next year? If this is a first round exit.
- [34:30]
Bill Simmons
I think you're looking at Porter in that case. Right, Rob? I think that would be the first piece. Cause he's.
- [34:35]
Chris Ryan
I think Murray could be on the table, too.
- [34:38]
Bill Simmons
That would surprise me.
- [34:39]
Chris Ryan
Different financial commitment for sure. But I think. I think if the Nuggets lose, and granted this is a series, they well could lose like a 4, 5 in which both are quality Western Conference teams. It's. It's not like a disgrace to lose to the Clippers, but clearly this is a team operating with incredible urgency that sees some pretty dramatic changes in its future. Why not trade Murray or Porter as a part of that? If you think the outcome is disappointing, if you think those guys can't take you anywhere, then you gotta start. You gotta start somewhere with the actual roster.
- [35:09]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [35:09]
Bill Simmons
If you can't get through this series, that. That should tell. You gotta do something here.
- [35:14]
Brian Windhorst
Well.
- [35:15]
Rob Mahoney
Cause when they fired Booth and Malone, you could read that as white flag. We're getting ready for next season. I have my eye on another GM who might become available soon or is in the mix, whoever, you know, and coach and the same thing for coach. And then I think they kind of had a little bit of a dead cat bounce where they're like, no, we're not dead yet. We're fine. You know, and like, we're.
- [35:38]
Bill Simmons
We're.
- [35:38]
Rob Mahoney
We're still. We're still frisky, and it's still Jokic. Jokic. So it's kind of weird. It's like I. On one hand, I'm like, are you guys playing out the string or is.
- [35:46]
Bill Simmons
This like, I see. I don't think they were doing that at all. I think this was bad for a while, and I think they wanted to do it a couple different times and just. They would just win a game right when they were about to do it. And. And I just think they stared at it and stared at it, and at some point we're like, this is actually going to sink our season if we don't do something.
- [36:05]
Rob Mahoney
Everything's coming, man. You know, Arsenal just beat Real Madrid, and then the Champions League got the magic touch.
- [36:11]
Bill Simmons
So for narratives for the Denver side, it'll be like, Jokic, I thought you think he's the mvp and he couldn't even get out of round one. Like, I promise you, if they lose to the Clippers, Jokic will not. There will be no shit on his. On his feet. It won't be him. They will. The Clippers will win despite Jokic.
- [36:29]
Chris Ryan
He's one of the best playoff performers in modern NBA, if not overall NBA.
- [36:33]
Bill Simmons
History and he also just had one of the best offensive seasons in the history of the league. I think there's the Murray Porter question from the Nuggets side. Then who's going to come in all that stuff on the Clipper side? If they don't win, then it's a James Harden, he fooled us again. If Kawhi that can't play seven games in a row or six games in a row, he fooled us again. I think those would be the two things that came out of it. Let's take a break. Wanted to mention one other series to you and then I'll do my NBA Awards for you guys. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. We're in the playoffs baby. From three pointers to steals to assists, FanDuel has so many ways to bet your favorite player Props. You can bet series prices, you can live bet. You can do all kinds of things. But you can also do live prop bets into a same game parlay for a chance to win big. You'll get started on FanDuel right now if you join with $250 of bonus bets if your first $5 bet win. So visit FanDuel.com bsmyinitials to get in on all the NBA playoff action we got play in on Friday night and then the actual series coming. Fandor.com BS for your shot at $250 in bonus bets. Make every moment more with FanDuel, an official sports betting partner of the NBA. You must be 21 + in President in select states or 18 + in President D.C. first online real money wage only $5 first deposit required. Bonus issued as non withdrawable bonus bets which expire seven days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See terms@sportsbook.fander.com, game Prom Call 100 Gamble or visit rg-help.com this episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. Summer's almost here and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. What do we mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken Parmesan delivered. I love chicken parmesan. A cabana? That's a no. But a banana? That's a yes. A nice tan? Sorry, nope. But a box fan? Happily yes. A day of sunshine? No. A box of fine wines? Yes. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol in select markets. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. All right, we didn't talk Lakers t Wolves. I'm really proud of us on espn. They would have just led with that and we could have done a goat conversation about LeBron and then done that whole thing. We don't have to do that here.
- [39:04]
Chris Ryan
We led with Steph instead. You know, we're much nobler.
- [39:06]
Rob Mahoney
So much better.
- [39:07]
Bill Simmons
We did the artsy. We did the Independent Spirits award version of the same segment.
- [39:11]
Rob Mahoney
Aubrey Plaza was hosting this.
- [39:13]
Bill Simmons
This podcast. Yeah. Adam Scott came in. Do you give the two Wolves a chance in this series? Rep?
- [39:20]
Chris Ryan
Absolutely. I think there's a really. There's a real possibility, and I'm not willing to stake all of these claims at once, but there's a real possibility that all three of these are upsets, that every non OKC series in the west is an upset. I'm not just, like, zooming past the Wolves at all. I think the Lakers, understandably, given just the collective brain power between Luka and LeBron and the way that they really rip you apart over the course of seven games deserves a ton of respect and a ton of deference. As we're kind of parsing out what's going to happen in this series. Ant is still pretty unguardable, and you can pressure him and you can trap him and you can try to make him do difficult things, but this is a pretty capable, pretty deep team. They also require you to bet heavily on Julius Randle being good in the playoffs. They require you to really believe in Rudy Gobert's ability to hang in this matchup. I'm probably a little more bullish on that than most, but I just. Hold on.
- [40:09]
Bill Simmons
Wait a second. Why are you bullish on that?
- [40:12]
Chris Ryan
I don't think he's a train wreck. I think most of the time that Rudy Gobert gets dragged across the Coles. It's mostly misplaced frustration at, like, perimeter people who can't guard anybody or matchups that happen for like, three minutes of a game. But overall, he may not be always playing up to defensive player of the year standards. And frankly, he hasn't been that guy this year or last year really, at all. He's kind of come down a level, but he's a good NBA player and he's a good player who has some leverage in a series like this. I think he will make an impact on it.
- [40:39]
Rob Mahoney
Do you think it's an advantage, Rob, that Finch has introduced this idea that there's no sacred cows on this team early in the season? Where he's like, I might run this five out for the end, or I might run this five out. And it's like, just because of your rep, just because of the name on the back of the jersey doesn't mean you're out here. Like, because you do, quote, unquote, deserve it. It's who I think is the best matchup at the end of games. If he's been doing that all season, maybe Gobert is more emotionally prepared for eventualities where he's not on the floor because the Lakers are throwing something at the wolves that he doesn't suit, he's not suited for.
- [41:16]
Chris Ryan
Yeah, I think you hope that that's the case. And from a coaching perspective, you're right. You're doing kind of everything you can to prime your players for that possibility. Bottom line, your team has Anthony Edwards, Jaden McDaniels, Rudy Gobert, Julius Randle. Like, these are highly emotional players. If we're all being honest about the way that they operate and conduct themselves. They've had fights in huddles, they've punched things and gotten injured. Like, this is the core of your team, and you're going to ride and die with some of that emotion. And there's inevitably going to be a fallout during the really, really tough moments. But maybe you can get away with that for a series. Maybe you can get away with that for a couple games at a time. I think you just have to kind of ride the right wave with it.
- [41:54]
Bill Simmons
I had a Minnesota fan try to zag with Gobert, and I appreciated it. I won't name who it was, but they were like, you know, everybody's talking about playing Gobert off the court. What about Gobert's high lobs? Who's contesting those in the Lakers? I was like, oh, I like. I kind of like that he might.
- [42:11]
Rob Mahoney
Play Jackson Hayes off the court.
- [42:12]
Brian Windhorst
Who's.
- [42:12]
Bill Simmons
Like, who are the. Who are the rim protectors on the Lakers? I was like, well, they don't really have some. And the other point was that you can actually hide Gobert in this series a little bit more than people realize. Like, if Jackson Hayes is out there, he just stays with him. And if they're going to set picks where Jackson Hayes is the one setting the pick, good luck to you. And then when Rui's out there, he probably shades closer to Rui or Finney Smith and does the thing that the Celtics do with Porzingis, where he's near the corner, but he can jump back in.
- [42:41]
Rob Mahoney
He can play free safety. Yeah.
- [42:43]
Bill Simmons
And I Don't know, they were just a little more bullish on it than I thought. There's a best player in the series question with this series that's really fun where you're like, well, Obviously Luke or LeBron, it's like, I don't know how obvious it is like, what if Edwards is just incredible? Edwards certainly thinks he's the best player in the series. There's some, you know, LeBron's 40 years old. I feel like if you're going to always talk about, well, what if Kawhi gets hurt? I still think we have to at least mentioned, well, what if a 40 year old guy playing really physical, awesome playoff games every two, three days, like, are we counting on that for three rounds? I think that has to be mentioned and then the targeting Reeves on defense. I think the smarter teams have done it. The Lakers know it's coming. How much of that are going to do it? I think it's an awesome series. If you had to pick, who are you picking, Rob?
- [43:32]
Chris Ryan
I would pick the Lakers, but I think it's going to be long. I'm very tempted to pick a Lakers in 7Cr.
- [43:37]
Bill Simmons
Do you think Minnesota, you think they get 30% of the calls this series? 28%. Where would you put it?
- [43:44]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, what's the circuit breaker? What's the lowest amount of calls they could get for the NBA breaks? I think, I think 30 is a nice number. I'm going with the Wolves.
- [43:54]
Bill Simmons
Go with the Wolves.
- [43:55]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [43:56]
Chris Ryan
Hell yeah.
- [43:57]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [43:59]
Bill Simmons
It'S an awesome series. I'll tell you this. The FanDuel line of Minnesota being a plus 156 underdog and the Lakers being almost 2 to 1 seems awful to me because Minnesota has enough talent to hang with this. It, to me this feels like a Lakers in 7 you7 watching Lucas so.
- [44:17]
Rob Mahoney
Closely over the last couple of weeks, Bill, like, do you feel like he's got his head screwed on right for this, for the postseason?
- [44:23]
Bill Simmons
I liked what I saw from him last week, but I, I absolutely think one of Minnesota's game plans is going to be to try to agitate him and annoy him and hope that he gets mad, hope that he gets technicals, hope that he gets into mano a mano stuff. I think I just think he's shown some real immaturity on the court all the same stuff he's been doing the first seven years of his career. He still does, he still talks to people in the front row, all that shit And I think Minnesota has a bunch of guys who love that and the Other thing with Minnesota is it's definitely an irrational confidence team. Nobody's going to be scared. They're not going to be, oh my God, we're playing in la. They don't give a shit. They're not going to care that celebrities are around the front. Yeah, this will be a good one. I forgot to mention with the Rocket series and maybe with the Pistons, Knicks, which is the last one I want to talk about quickly. I don't think kids should be allowed in the front row for either of those series.
- [45:20]
Rob Mahoney
Those are great take.
- [45:21]
Bill Simmons
I think it has to be 12, 12 and up.
- [45:24]
Chris Ryan
You must be a Disneyland ride.
- [45:27]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. If you're nine and under you don't get to sit. Knicks, Pistons. I almost think that's like an NC17 movie you have to be 18 and older to see. Yeah.
- [45:36]
Rob Mahoney
Child services should be called if you've got like a six year old.
- [45:38]
Bill Simmons
If you bring your six year old kid to Nick's Pistons and that kid gets trampled by Ron Holland during like a massive brawl. I don't feel sorry for you. I don't feel sorry that your kid broke his wrist when he's six years old. You shouted the front row for that series.
- [45:53]
Rob Mahoney
Counterpoint to this. That'll build character.
- [45:56]
Chris Ryan
Oh, there we go.
- [45:58]
Rob Mahoney
And we're, we're facing down a time in this country where people are going to maybe have to go back to the factories and what better way to prepare you than by witnessing a massive brawl.
- [46:07]
Bill Simmons
There was old. Stay out of the first round. Just warning you. Now this is the thing.
- [46:12]
Chris Ryan
I don't know that there's an age at which you are safe from an Isaiah Stewart elbow. You know, like if it comes down to that, it really doesn't matter if you're a child, it doesn't matter if you're elderly. Like these guys are going to spill over and I respect the hell out of it.
- [46:24]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Because I don't think you can rule out Lakers Wolves either for some sort of, some sort of feistiness. But Rockets warriors, clearly shit's going down in that series and the Rockets are going to hit Curry. They're going to hold him 50ft from the basket on every screen. They're going to knock him down when he goes to the hoop. It's, it's, it's just going to be.
- [46:44]
Rob Mahoney
Definitely yanking that guy's thumb. I mean it is. Oh yeah.
- [46:47]
Bill Simmons
It's going to be like oh no, of course. Pistons, Knicks. Any chance, Rob?
- [46:53]
Chris Ryan
It's a, it's a real climb. I think there's, there's places where the Pistons are gonna have definite advantages like that that's a matchup that really suits Cade. I think he's gonna play great. I think overall the orchestration is going to be there. But keeping up with the Knicks and kind of the sheer firepower of what they're capable of with all of their guys out there is. Is brutal. And I think even more brutal now. Like, they've had a weird season. They've been up and down. They haven't all been together. They've played a lot together. But in terms of the chemistry of that core, 5 hasn't been as scintillating as I might have hoped coming into the season. But then you get stretches where Brunson's out and OG Anunoby transforms into this totally different guy. Maybe there's a huge payoff for that, right? Maybe there's a payoff for those minutes where, you know, Towns is in foul trouble, Brunson has to leave the game for a bit or is just kind of being locked up in a certain matchup. Maybe Ron Holland is all. Or a SAR Thompson's all up in his jersey for long stretches, and now it's the OG Anunoby show. And I think that's. That's something that the Pistons just don't have counters for. Is that that sort of layered offensive threat?
- [47:51]
Bill Simmons
Great regular season story, CR Yeah, I think this is probably where the train gets off and maybe they win one. I think. Knicks in four at plus five, 20 or Nixon five at plus two, 70. Those are probably two of my favorite bets. The one question I have with the Knicks, can Tibbs figure out a way to, like, could Brunson end up with a minutes per game in this series of like, 48.2? Like, if there was like, an overtime?
- [48:16]
Chris Ryan
Yeah.
- [48:17]
Rob Mahoney
Is.
- [48:17]
Bill Simmons
Is all. Are all five guys going to be in the 40s every game? Because there's like two days off between games. Yeah.
- [48:23]
Rob Mahoney
Brunson has to do halftime entertainment.
- [48:26]
Bill Simmons
Does he have to do the Red Panda?
- [48:27]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, he has to go out there and spin plates. I just want to say I. I was always a big Kid Cunningham fan, and I was really worried that his career was going to kind of get basically torpedoed by the institutional malaise of the Pistons. So to see this turnaround is really cool. I hope that everybody. Because it's the Knicks, it's New York, there's going to be a ton of people watching this series, just inevitably that it's a great platform and he goes off no matter what happens. I think the Pistons Definitely get one at home. And it's a feel good story and I just, I think it's a cool platform to introduce a new start of the league.
- [49:03]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Rob, are you watching Institutional Malaise on Paramount?
- [49:08]
Chris Ryan
You know, I thought it was a real slog mid season. It just, it kind of lost me a little bit.
- [49:12]
Bill Simmons
I thought it was good to see Carla Gijino, like trying again with one of the Wilson brothers.
- [49:17]
Rob Mahoney
She's a lawyer who's just trying to make it work with this.
- [49:20]
Chris Ryan
But Nicole Kidman's three episode arc, I thought that was pretty good.
- [49:23]
Bill Simmons
We should create a video show for The Ringer Dash TV YouTube thing where we just list four shows and three of them are real and one is made up and then the viewers have to guess which one we made up because I think it would be near impossible at this point. Apple will have some shows where I'm just like, wow, yeah, what is that? That was greenlit.
- [49:46]
Rob Mahoney
There was a show that I heard about the other day called State of the union with Chris O'Dowd and Rosamund Pike. And it's just about their marriage and Nick Hornby wrote it and I was like, this feels like a poster in Seth Rogen's office in the studio.
- [50:01]
Chris Ryan
Yes.
- [50:02]
Bill Simmons
Right. The studio has almost. Yeah, it's almost like made it even more noticeable.
- [50:07]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [50:08]
Bill Simmons
Rob, are you a 1923 guy?
- [50:10]
Chris Ryan
I'm not. Should I be?
- [50:11]
Bill Simmons
Oh, wow. Am I missing out?
- [50:16]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. I mean, it's not my favorite Sheridan, but it definitely ended with some fireworks.
- [50:22]
Chris Ryan
I prefer my Sheridan modern, if I'm being honest with you. I prefer it with guns a blazing, but in a more modern setting. Maybe a drug runner is involved, maybe not.
- [50:32]
Bill Simmons
I have season tickets now for Sheridan. That's where I've landed. Sure, I really like 1923, but it's one of the all time couple shows for my wife and I. My wife loves it. I have no idea why. And she loves shows set in the 1800s and 1900s because she feels like she really would have been an impactful person back then.
- [50:50]
Chris Ryan
What does an impactful person back then look like?
- [50:54]
Bill Simmons
She would have absolutely been able to defend the ranch with guns and. And would have been able to survive in the cold. She would have hit that train that the lady waited for, the train who was freezing. She's like, I would have made it. I would have been able to make it until the train showed up. Yeah, I would have died in the first episode.
- [51:11]
Rob Mahoney
The median show for a couple is an interesting conversation. Like what show ticks three boxes each.
- [51:16]
Bill Simmons
I think presumed innocent is a 10 out of 10 on this. Yeah.
- [51:20]
Rob Mahoney
Friends and neighbors right now for my wife and I, 100% great. One equal boxes. Yeah.
- [51:25]
Bill Simmons
Just ham. Hamming it up. Yeah, he's having a ham old time. Okay. Playing games really quick. I, I picked Miami against Chicago and I think they're also going to be at Atlanta and that line is only minus one. There's no case for the Hawks, is that right?
- [51:41]
Chris Ryan
I, I mean, there's a case in that. Other than what you may have been led to believe by the way that he just shellacked the Bulls. This team can't really score in most games and so I don't put it past them on any night to have like a 15 point quarter followed by a 13 point quarter.
- [51:57]
Bill Simmons
Who do you think Cleveland would rather play? Probably Atlanta.
- [52:00]
Chris Ryan
I don't think they care. I think they're probably, I mean, look, yeah, if given the choice, one of them is maybe a little less physically taxing than the other, but I don't think the Cavs are having a problem with either of those teams.
- [52:09]
Rob Mahoney
You guys enjoying the play? In experience?
- [52:11]
Bill Simmons
I think they could dump the 9, 10 pretty easily and we'd be good. I think we could go 7, 8 and then loser plays 8, 9 or we go 89 first. Yeah, they play the 7. Some version of that. I, I, I just. Although I guess Sacramento's still in, but it's, it's almost like they need the college football committee from the mid-80s to kind of step in and just be like, now we decided not a 910 team in the middle.
- [52:40]
Rob Mahoney
Sacks fired their GM while they're still in.
- [52:42]
Chris Ryan
No, no, no. Like they would be in.
- [52:44]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, they would be in. I see what you're saying. Yeah.
- [52:46]
Bill Simmons
No, it's just, you know, you see those games, there was one good game out of four. I think they're probably hoping there's two good games out of four. So it's pretty tough, I think year.
- [52:57]
Chris Ryan
To year it's just impossible to know. And so they keep the option open for the most possible good games and some junk is going to filter in. Like we're just going to have to sit through it, I think.
- [53:05]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, C.R. i know. About three weeks ago, I heard through the grapevine, you and your financial team bought some Nico Harrison stock. The lowest possible level. You're like, I'm gonna bet on this guy. A lot of connections. Did some great stuff in the shoe industry. Made some good trades, got pulled the Mavs to the finals last year. The stock's never been Lower. I'm gonna invest and then Dallas looks awesome last night in the playing game. How are you feeling about your holdings?
- [53:36]
Rob Mahoney
I'm the Charlie Munger of buying into front offices. I, I find it incredibly funny, with all due respect to our former former colleague Jason Gallagher, who's really going through it on social media about the, the Dallas situation. Yeah, it was just kind of like, of course they're going to get into the playoffs and we're going to keep having to talk about this. I, I still think obviously it is historically bad trade, but it's AD is good.
- [54:04]
Chris Ryan
Yeah, I don't know. Nico Harrison said they were a championship level team for two and a half quarters. Like, what more compelling evidence do you need?
- [54:10]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, well, my question is if they did, if they do, there's six and a half point underdogs in Memphis and I, to me, that game's a toss up because I could just see Davis going nuts in that game. If they did get in the OKC thing, 18 and then Davis goes nuts in the first game and it just, it's the most fun, random scenario none of us would have expected. Like, oh my God, Dallas is up 2:1. And Nico's like, fuck all of you guys. I told you, if we had Kyrie, we'd be winning this thing.
- [54:41]
Rob Mahoney
All the Mavs fans are wearing Joker masks and kind of like, cool.
- [54:45]
Brian Windhorst
How am I supposed to feel?
- [54:48]
Bill Simmons
Who, Rob, who do you think? Okc. I know they don't care either, but who would they rather play?
- [54:52]
Chris Ryan
I think they'd rather play Dallas. I think they'd rather play the team that basically doesn't have functional point guards, that's starting Najee Marshall out of necessity, that's running Brandon Williams out there, who's played relatively well. But there's like, there's a reason why when you play against anyone who's not the Kings and you're the Mavs, you struggle to get the ball anywhere it needs to go. In the half court, they just like don't have enough. Not just spacing, but the floor balance is kind of busted. They don't have enough playmaking in general right now. I think that would have been the case even if Kyrie was healthy, to be honest with you. But it's especially true now.
- [55:23]
Bill Simmons
Lou Dort's going to be like, I, I don't know who to guard. Who do you want me to shut down? Oh, these guys are mediocre. I want Dallas to keep winning because I think it would be hilarious. But yeah, this worked out unbelievably. Well for okc. And this is why you get the one seed and this is why I did. All right, before we go, I wanted to do. I want to do my awards that I handed in on Tuesday. Not expecting. I thought I had a little more time.
- [55:50]
Chris Ryan
I thought so too.
- [55:51]
Bill Simmons
But they asked for it on Tuesday. I think they didn't want the play in game. So I'm just going to. I'm going to tell you what I did and you guys, I don't think I none. Neither of you guys know anything I did, right?
- [56:03]
Rob Mahoney
No. Okay, I can guess based on some of your more recent podcast appearances.
- [56:09]
Bill Simmons
Coach of the year Bickerstaff 3 Kenny Atkinson 2.
- [56:17]
Chris Ryan
Whoa.
- [56:19]
Bill Simmons
Mark Dagnault, number one.
- [56:22]
Chris Ryan
Dagnall's been great.
- [56:23]
Bill Simmons
Who'd you have, Rob?
- [56:24]
Chris Ryan
I did. Atkinson 1. Emo Doka 2 Bickerstaff 3 But Dagnall's been great. Ty Lue has been great. I think Dagnall in particular, balancing all the injuries that OKC had this season, maintaining an elite high effort, high intensity defense over the entire course of the run and helping their young players get better. That's just not something that a lot of coaches can do all at once. So he deserves a ton of credit.
- [56:47]
Bill Simmons
I was always impressed watching them, how well prepared they were, how hard they played and how they could basically sustain any injury and it was somehow okay. But the way the young players have grown on that team and it's got to the point when the trade deadline, it's like, I don't know, Aaron Wiggins is good. Why would they. Why do they need like a swing man? Why do they need DeAndre Hunter like they have Aaron Wiggins. I just thought he did a great job. And I think sometimes we default toward. It's gotta be this, you know, like a bicker staff like a JJ. The Lakers only improved by 3.
- [57:21]
Rob Mahoney
It's almost most improved team because kind of thing.
- [57:24]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. And it's. And I always felt like that was stupid. So anyway, I have that clutch player of the year, Jason Tatum, number three. Look up the stats.
- [57:33]
Chris Ryan
Sure.
- [57:34]
Bill Simmons
No, Jalen Brunson. He's still only 19 years old. Chris. Jalen Brunson 2 I couldn't believe how easy this was for me because I actually watch basketball. Jokic is the number one clutch player of the year. Does anyone fucking watch the Nuggets? He does everything at the end of games for them. Everything possible. How is he not clutch player of the year?
- [57:57]
Chris Ryan
Because this award is kind of bogus.
- [57:59]
Bill Simmons
That's a ridiculous award. They should get rid of it.
- [58:01]
Chris Ryan
It's reliant on how you parse 12 shots like that. That's what the clutch player of the year is.
- [58:07]
Bill Simmons
We talked about other possible things that could. Priscilla and I that could go in for this award because I hate the Kia Klitsch player of the year and I think it's stupid but it could be the like the. An award like the Kia. I'd really given up on you but you kind of won me back over player of the year. Like I really think they should have something like that or I really thought you sucked and it turns out you don't.
- [58:29]
Chris Ryan
How do you think Kia would feel about that?
- [58:31]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [58:31]
Bill Simmons
Well. Yeah.
- [58:33]
Rob Mahoney
Does that fit on a poster for them?
- [58:35]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Six man of the year Ty Jerome third, Peyton Pritchard second and Malik Beasley first. And I. I can't believe Pritchard was favored for this award all year. I just what Beasley did all year clearly the sixth man to me he didn't start really ever. He scored 16 a game. Kurt Goldsberry did a thing on my pod about how he's basically Klay Thompson for them this year. It's been really good and I just thought it was a no brainer. Who'd you have for that rep?
- [59:03]
Chris Ryan
I had Pritchard. I I think Pritchard does a lot of what Beasley does at a more or less similar level. Not quite the three point volume. What Beasley's doing is pretty. Pretty exceptional in that way. But a great three point shooter himself. Plus holds his own defensively.
- [59:17]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [59:17]
Chris Ryan
Plus drives offense off the dribble. I just think he's more versatile than Beasley at the end of the day.
- [59:23]
Bill Simmons
CR My thinking was if Pritchard disappeared for 25 games it would suck but the Celtics would have been fine. If Beasley disappeared, I think the Pistons would have been in major major, major trouble because they actually ran real offense for him throughout the game.
- [59:37]
Rob Mahoney
Also if you had picked Pritchard most people would have thrown their phones into the wall. That's true by now.
- [59:42]
Bill Simmons
Look man, I really care about these awards. I try to do the right thing even if it's at the expense of pr.
- [59:50]
Chris Ryan
Please tell me that's not a thing.
- [59:52]
Bill Simmons
That's T shirt in Boston. Yeah. Can look for it.
- [59:55]
Chris Ryan
Tastefully done. I'm sure.
- [59:56]
Bill Simmons
I didn't see how to selling T shirt in Boston.
- [59:59]
Rob Mahoney
Not a lot of Pritch please shirts.
- [60:01]
Bill Simmons
At the coolest I could get you one Sierra.
- [60:02]
Rob Mahoney
Thanks. Please. I'm a medium rookie of the year.
- [60:05]
Bill Simmons
I went Castle 1 Reese Sachet 2 ED3. I don't Castle did enough. I feel like, yeah, he was out there. Any arguments? Cr?
- [60:15]
Rob Mahoney
No. I mean, the Castle thing is just so exciting to imagine him with a healthy Wemby Fox, full off season, and then maybe an addition that they make in the off season. Like, it's really cool. He's like a perfect winning basketball player on that, on that team.
- [60:31]
Bill Simmons
I'll skip the rookie, first, second team, most improved. I did Kamara on Portland, number three.
- [60:39]
Brian Windhorst
Really?
- [60:40]
Bill Simmons
I thought he was stunning.
- [60:42]
Chris Ryan
I mean, he's been great, but he's never kind of always been great at those things, though.
- [60:46]
Bill Simmons
I get, Yeah, I, I, I really took this one seriously and looked at everybody's because I wanted to do Reeves, and I looked at last year's Reeves versus this year, and it's like, was he really improved? He was good last year. Same thing for Cade. Kamara became, I think, a guy that the other team was like, fuck, that is true. They have this guy. Oh, man, this is going to be a hard night for me. So I had him three. I had Christian Brown, too. Just getting thrown in the KCP thing, and then I thought Daniels was the clear number one. Who'd you have number one, Rob?
- [61:13]
Chris Ryan
I had Zoo actually number one.
- [61:15]
Bill Simmons
Oh. I looked at him, I just felt like he was good last year and then went up a level, but he's coming up later.
- [61:21]
Chris Ryan
He was good, but, like, I wouldn't put him anywhere close to all defense. Last year, for example, I thought he was really solid, but now he's all defense. Now he's putting up massive numbers now. He's still one of the most impactful rebounders in the league, but has taken, like, an even bigger jump in terms of what that means to a team. I think he's been incredible.
- [61:37]
Bill Simmons
I wanted to put Quentin Grimes number one for CR because he almost ruined CR's draft pick every night.
- [61:44]
Rob Mahoney
It was like I was at home in Philly watching a run of games that they had, and he would honestly be going nuclear. And you'd be like, all right, Quentin, roll an ankle. Come on. You know, like, like, you've done enough. You hit your over or whatever the hell.
- [61:58]
Bill Simmons
Is that anything?
- [62:00]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [62:01]
Bill Simmons
Defensive player of the year, number three, Draymond Green.
- [62:06]
Chris Ryan
Okay, I'm feeling better. I'm, I'm worried. I'm worried where you're going, but I have hope.
- [62:11]
Bill Simmons
Number two, Evan Mobley.
- [62:13]
Chris Ryan
Oh, fuck. We couldn't get Evan Mobley, number one.
- [62:17]
Bill Simmons
Number one, Lou Dort.
- [62:20]
Chris Ryan
Should have known Lou Dort's name.
- [62:21]
Bill Simmons
I looked at it Every which way. And I thought I was going. I thought it was really hard. And by the way, there's no Wemby this year. So this was like an Oscars year where you just take out titanic out of 1997 and then try to figure out what Best Picture is. Um, I just thought Dort was the best guy I saw in person this year, and I think he wrecked the most games that I saw. As good as Mobley? As Mobley, like, very. Looked like facsimile KG a lot of the times and can guard all these different things. I thought what Dort did to some of the best players in the league was unbelievable. And I saw it in person a couple times. Harden wanted no part of him.
- [63:00]
Chris Ryan
No one does.
- [63:01]
Bill Simmons
No, it's just like they. He's just like this. He's like Reavis on the jets. Just like, all right, I'm going to take that guy. You guys worry about what you're going to do. This guy's not doing anything today. And I just thought he was awesome. I voted for Smart a couple years ago, which became a controversial pick after the pay. And it's a lot of the same stuff. Like I just think perimeter guys who can make sure the other best guy in the team doesn't hit 30 in the game, which he had a two and a half month stretch where nobody scored 30 on him. So I had him. So Rob, you had Mobley?
- [63:32]
Chris Ryan
I had Mobley, yeah.
- [63:34]
Rob Mahoney
Where did you have? Amen.
- [63:37]
Chris Ryan
That was second team, right? All defense, second team.
- [63:40]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, that. I had him. Second team. And I'm already regretting it. But I'll tell you what I did for the. So I had first team, all defense. I had Mobley, Green, Dort, Dyson, Daniels. I felt like had to be the poke check shit he was doing. Nobody's done that in 40 years. I've never. And the one thing I didn't love about him was the big physical guys. I felt I could overpower him a little bit, but everything else was there. And then I put Zubot's first team.
- [64:05]
Chris Ryan
Yeah, why not?
- [64:06]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [64:07]
Bill Simmons
I thought their whole defense is anchored toward funneling people to him. The rebounding, which I think should matter at least a little bit in all defense, protecting the boards. And I like to have my teams look like a semblance of a team. I know these are all fake.
- [64:23]
Chris Ryan
They're extremely fake.
- [64:24]
Bill Simmons
They're extremely stupid and fake. But I like that. I want them to look like a team. So then second team. Kamara Anunobi, Ahmed Thompson, Jalen Williams and I had Giannis over Gobert. I just felt like we skip over Giannis every year with all defense for some reason. Then you watch these games and he's all over the place covering jjj.
- [64:44]
Rob Mahoney
Not on either then neither.
- [64:46]
Brian Windhorst
Damn.
- [64:46]
Bill Simmons
None.
- [64:47]
Chris Ryan
I think he's in the group. That could have like a first team argument. I think, you know, it's on that borderline where you're either going to go, amen, Jaren, Jackson, Zhu, someone in that category. But I think he's. I think he's got to be there. I think he's got to be their second team in the.
- [65:02]
Rob Mahoney
In.
- [65:03]
Bill Simmons
Sorry, go ahead, stay on the fucking court. I've watched too many games. Or he does the dumbest foul. He did it in the playing game. He does dumbest fouls at the worst time. And I think that's a huge part of this. Zubot stays on the court.
- [65:14]
Chris Ryan
That is true.
- [65:15]
Bill Simmons
Zubots is like 2.1 fouls a game. And Jackson will be. He'll any big game. And watching the playing game, I'm sure it'll be the same thing. He's always lingering around, foul trouble, fouling dudes 20ft from the basket. What do you have? CR.
- [65:28]
Rob Mahoney
I was just going to say in honor of your Kia. I thought you sucked, but you actually impressed me. This year award or changing that title. I think we could do the Kia. I like watching you play defense more than I like watching most guys play offense team.
- [65:43]
Chris Ryan
And now we're talking. The Kia grabs are just popping off right now.
- [65:46]
Rob Mahoney
I like watching Amen play defense more than I like watching like 80% of guys play basketball.
- [65:50]
Bill Simmons
Basketball.
- [65:50]
Chris Ryan
Yes.
- [65:51]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [65:52]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. I mean, he's. It would be weird a word to have athlete of the year in the NBA, but I, for me, he's athlete of the year. Yeah, that's the. The over and over again. When people see Houston in person, they're like, Jesus, it's really jarring what happened to this guy. Okay, all NBA first team, Shea, Yic Tatum, Giannis, Mitchell. You knew those were the five. Second team, Edwards, Curry, Mobley, Towns, LeBron James. There's some cases against LeBron cause of the net rating, Rob. Like he had a -1.3 net rating on a team that won 50 games. Do you care about that stuff? When you look at votes, I think.
- [66:35]
Chris Ryan
You have to flag it and kind of kick the tires on it. But ultimately you circle back to the fact that this is LeBron James and you can see so much of the impact he has on the game. He's not a Subtle player. Like, he has the ball a lot. He makes incredible plays that no one else can make. I think it's worth looking at. But the Lakers rotation has been so funky all year. I think there's just a lot of noise in it, to be honest with you.
- [66:55]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. And CR. I was like, it was just a goofy season. Davis gets hurt. They make a trade midseason. And he was, you know, the only constant. So you're good with LeBron second team.
- [67:06]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. And I think that you should almost give him credit for the. The adaptability that he's had. Definitely like to be. Some nights he has to be the man. Some nights he's like playing setup guy for Luka. He's weathered all these different storms and he's actually been like pretty healthy for a 40 year old. And when he's been on the court, he's looked awesome.
- [67:25]
Bill Simmons
Every time I want to he praise on him. He does stuff like saying how he was in the bottom half of the league with free throws over the last. Whatever that thing he said on McAfee was easily debunked. Or then Rich Paul goes in and talks about how the three guys in Miami weren't actually big three. If you look at it, it's like, yeah, they were. Bash was like a 24 and 10 guy in his own team. It was a big three dude. The constant trying to push this goat agenda with LeBron. They're making it worse, not better. I'll just say that. Okay. NBA third team. Cade, Cunningham and Brunson. No surprise. The last three spots were pretty divisive all over the place. And a lot of people had Hal Burton and Jaren Jackson here. Neither of them made my list.
- [68:11]
Chris Ryan
Come on.
- [68:13]
Bill Simmons
Why? Jalen Williams, okc, Zubots. Okay, I put them on. I like that because I, I just. Look, the NBA does this thing where they're. They've just like. There's too much controversy with these. With the. All NBA teams just pick 15 best players and it's like, I don't want to do that. You're throwing away 80 years of history by doing that. I still think I have to have a big man on every team. And if, if there's no big man, then sure, I'll have four guards, but if there's somebody who deserves to be on it, I'm just picking them over having four guards. I thought Zubats. I made the case for him Sunday. I thought he was amazing and incredibly important. And it was a good litmus test of are you watching basketball or not this season? So that last spot came down to James Harden or Tyrese Hallburn for me and I can't believe it. I took James Harden.
- [69:03]
Chris Ryan
Incredible.
- [69:04]
Bill Simmons
Can I ask a question? I have two Clippers on my third team.
- [69:08]
Rob Mahoney
Do you think it's just funny to cost Steve Ballmer a lot of money? Because these guys probably will like Trigger.
- [69:13]
Bill Simmons
Do they have like bonuses? I didn't even. I didn't know about that. I just thought hard and I watched. I really like the Pacers, but there are some Pacers games where he just wasn't. Didn't have to be that important. First couple months of the season wasn't great. Last three, four months, he was way, way better. Really good.
- [69:31]
Chris Ryan
Definitely.
- [69:31]
Bill Simmons
Harden does everything for the Clippers. Even when Kawhi's out there, everything's still running through him. And he was really durable. He played I think like 78, 79 games. And I just thought he was really, really good. I had a lot of. I couldn't leave him off. So Rob, what are your take two Clippers.
- [69:48]
Chris Ryan
That's a lot of Clippers. Even for a great Clipper season, especially at Haliburton's expense. Who will. It will surprise no one given my Pacers advocacy that I have Halliburton. I actually have him on my second team.
- [70:00]
Bill Simmons
Wow.
- [70:01]
Chris Ryan
He is the style of play for a 50 win team. Yeah, like that's a pretty compelling case. He doesn't have a straightforward one on one game and that makes him kind of a funky player. But he has a comprehensive winning effect on everything that's happening around him and Harden has some of that too. I want to be fair, like Harden, handling and shouldering as much as he did is what lets you play Chris Dunn as much as you do. It's what lets you play Derek Jones Jr. As much as you do. It's what lets you get away with all these other guys slotting into their roles. And so the usage, kind of efficiency, trade offs of that are not always going to look great for Harden, but the impact is there and it's substantial. But him and Zoo over Halliburton, I think the only way to do it is to do what you did, which is construction an entirely new set of rules by which you need to put a center on the team to make it look like an actual basketball team.
- [70:49]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. And if it was going to go, you know, hey, do whatever, then I probably would have done Halliburton and Harden. But I really, I genuinely think Stubbots deserves it.
- [70:58]
Chris Ryan
Those are the rules, are do whatever.
- [71:01]
Rob Mahoney
But they're not his rules.
- [71:02]
Chris Ryan
That's true. Look, a man's got to have a code.
- [71:04]
Bill Simmons
Those weren't the rules in 1973. Those weren't the rules in 1997.
- [71:10]
Chris Ryan
I'm trying to move America forward. You know, we're trying to.
- [71:13]
Rob Mahoney
Bill's keeping the positions of all NBA and we're going to start smoking inside.
- [71:17]
Bill Simmons
A restaurant, mess around with the Constitution. All of a sudden, Trump's in there for multiple terms.
- [71:22]
Chris Ryan
What could go wrong?
- [71:24]
Bill Simmons
I felt really bad about how Burton. I had basically 16 guys for 15 spots. Jackson wasn't going to make it for me, but Halberton. So that's it. I'll probably maybe regret it. All right. Mvp. Last one. I put Mitchell five. I test drove the Edwards case and I test drove the Curry case. Did you do similar test drives, Rob.
- [71:45]
Chris Ryan
For Curry more than Edwards? I think ant for me is maybe a slight cut below these guys.
- [71:50]
Bill Simmons
Tatum, 4. He was 3 for me most of the year. But I thought Giannis, whatever happened to him the last month was just out of control and he just had to be three, especially when Dame goes out and it just didn't matter for them. So Mitchell, Tatum, Giannis, and then I battled back and forth between Jokic and Shai and I changed my mind a hundred times. And I really don't think there's a wrong answer because Shai had one of the best seasons by guard probably in the last 40 years. When you're talking about his offensive production, the consistency, how he did against teams head to head, what he meant to a pretty young but incredibly deep OKC team, and the fact that they won 68 games, I just thought he was an incredible candidate and probably would have taken easily 80% of the seasons. And I think he's going to win this year anyway. I voted for Jokic. I thought it was the best offensive season I've seen since Jordan. Like for what somebody did game after game, quarter after quarter, all the shit that he did for that team, not only was he first of all to be top three in points, rebounds and assists is. It's bonkers. I just can't believe. But not trying to pad stats, not doing the shit Westbrook did in 2017, where can you box out so I can get this foul shot, rebound, all that stuff. His usage rate's not that high. So if you're going to compare it to Luka last year, like, Luka had the ball all the time last year. Jokic kind of has the ball out of necessity, but he wants the ball to keep moving almost Like a hockey player. I thought the stuff he did day to day, week to week, I've never seen anything like it. And I was leaning there, leaning there. And then that 60, 10, 10 game, I just, I was like, this is. We may never see anything like this again. And I just had to pick him. So that's where I landed. I felt like just the fact that he'd won before would be the only reason. I get it. Shay with the wins and there's great cases for Shay. I didn't like making a pick and I'll probably regret it a week from now, but I just feel like I'm never going to see a season like that again. He got 50 games. They were in a three way tie for the third spot in the west, which was really competitive. The coach GM situation was a catastrophe. Murray didn't show up for the first two months of the season. They had no bench. The advanced metrics for when he was on the court, when he was off the court, was the biggest disparity in the history of the league. And it's just like, at some point, what are we doing? So I took him. What's your take, cr?
- [74:25]
Rob Mahoney
Well, I want to ask you whether or not you think you might regret it in two months if Oklahoma City loses like two games in the playoffs and he's.
- [74:34]
Bill Simmons
If they go 16 and two.
- [74:36]
Rob Mahoney
Cause I know it's a regular season award, but like, how will it sit if Shay is leading this historically good Oklahoma City team to their first title? And he is like, it's me. Like, I am him, you know, like you guys are worried about Luka and.
- [74:51]
Bill Simmons
Lamar and I feel stupid, right? But, but, but I get it. Because he's an award. That's the thing. And, and the thing is Shea was incredible. I almost feel like it's not even a slap on him. He had a better season than any Kobe Bryant season. He had as good of a season as any season Jordan ever had. Statistically, when you look at the wins and all the other stuff. But the Jokic thing I thought was a fucking unicorn season. Rob, what's your take?
- [75:19]
Chris Ryan
I also voted Jokic. I think Shai did, as you said, every single thing you need to do to win mvp. But sometimes you play at the same time as Nikola Jokic. And I mean, this is where every voter is so different. For me, if you are definitively the best player in the world and Jokic is having a season representative of being the best player in the world, I kind of start there. And you have to have the burden of proof to overcome it. And I think Shai got as close as I can imagine a player possibly getting with the season that Jokic had. Like that is an incredibly compelling case. What the Thunder were overall, a 68 win team, how dominant their defense was, and his role in that especially juxtaposed with Jokic, who has not been good defensively all season. But the way that Jokic carries that team is totally unique. And overall his production, I think is just something that is really, really hard to talk your way around, around or out of. And so I don't feel great about it. But I also don't think I'm ever going to be at the point where I'm losing sleep over voting for Jokic for mvp. As long as he's playing like this, I'm going to be at peace with that. Even if it means someone who also very well could have and I think will be MVP was not number one on my ballot.
- [76:26]
Rob Mahoney
It feels like Jokic has moved into the Jordan LeBron zone where he's MVP every year. And it's really up to the voters to be like, I'm bored or something has happened that feels like lightning in a bottle. You could tell me that next season Shai's not in the top three for NBA voting, MVP voting. And I wouldn't be shocked, right? But I would be if Jokic wasn't.
- [76:47]
Bill Simmons
Well, like LeBron was in the zone from 09 to 13. He won four or five. And then that Miami season, the first one was the one he didn't win, but it was just like when he was on that level that he was at, nobody was taking the MVP from him as long as his team was winning enough games. And then he went to Cleveland. I think the one LeBron season you could probably make the case after 13 was that last Cleveland season when he played 82. His stats really good. But if you go back and look like Harden, Harden's team won 65 games and his stats were basically dead even with LeBron and he was a better pick.
- [77:20]
Chris Ryan
Well, the one quirk in that though was that LeBron was the best player in the league and did have that acclaim and Derrick Rose won. And this look Shay is complicated season like this is not that Shay is absolutely worthy and not just like a narratively driven winner. Like he has every. Literally everything you would want on the resume.
- [77:38]
Bill Simmons
And I especially going head to head against other good teams. Like he did it. He was an incredible. But I kept coming back like I did. You did the Ringer 100, right? Yeah. So I had OKC. I had them. I had Shade 2, 17, 18, 62, 65, 79 and 96. I had them with seven of the best 96 guys in Denver. I had 1, 41, 60 and 78. And I'm not even sure how good I feel about the 78, which is Porter. That might have been even a little bit too high. And then you think like, no, I'm just like, I don't, I don't know. I don't know how much I like Porter. Um, and then you throw in the bench, which is like every 30 seconds he wasn't in the game. You felt like Denver was going to fall apart. I, I thought it was historic season. I feel terrible. And I, I, that, that I didn't vote for Shay because Shay did every single thing you ever could have asked. I just think Jokic's position is more important. If you're going to look at it to be like a point center that is also the best rebounder. He did everything, but he not only made the meals for his team, but he like fucking spoon fed them teammate by teammate. I've never seen anything like it.
- [78:47]
Rob Mahoney
And when he was out, they were eating gruel. Like, they were just eating.
- [78:50]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, they moved to prison food. So we'll see. Jokic could lose in five games in round one, and it could be a 2007 Dirk situation. But, well.
- [78:59]
Chris Ryan
So Bill, you said you had seven Thunder players on your top 100 ballot. Is Aaron Wiggins one of those players?
- [79:05]
Bill Simmons
No, but Kayson Wallace was.
- [79:07]
Chris Ryan
Oh, I love Case on Wallace. Yeah. Okay, now we're talking.
- [79:09]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Cause I just feel like if Kayson Wallace was on another team, that's a 35 minute a game guy for 25 other teams in the league.
- [79:17]
Chris Ryan
Straight up, one of the best I show defenders in the league. Yeah.
- [79:19]
Bill Simmons
Like, and he's luxury for them.
- [79:21]
Chris Ryan
Maybe their third or fourth best defender, which I think is, you know, a real state in terms of what if.
- [79:26]
Bill Simmons
You'Re going to ding Schaefer anything. I don't even know if it's a ding. That team is so. And they were missing like, Hartenstein was out for a while. Chet missed two thirds of the season. Like, I get it. But when you just think, like, fundamentally that team is built so perfectly for them where they can lose any two guys for a game and it's still okay. They can guard everybody in every conceivable way. And Shay just really has to worry about. I just got to score for us in crunch time. This is my job. And he was awesome at it.
- [79:54]
Chris Ryan
Yep.
- [79:55]
Bill Simmons
Um, but man, I. That Jokic season.
- [79:59]
Chris Ryan
One other thing about the Jokic case too, that I've seen going around, like, I. I get that the Thunder ran away with the west and they deserve credit for that. And Shade deserves credit for that. When was a 50 win season not good enough to win MVP?
- [80:13]
Bill Simmons
Never. I mean, to be. You want to be in the top four seeds. I think if the Denver had fallen to like a seven seed, I think it gets a little dicer and I know everybody was split by a game, but still, you know, the west was. The west had what, eight, eight of the best 11 teams in the league. Basically Liscona, Indiana and most of the good players in the league, so. All right, C.R. i thought you'd be. I thought C.R. would be more upset. CR, who'd you have, Shea or Jokic? You didn't tell us.
- [80:41]
Rob Mahoney
I have Shea, but it was only just because I. I kind of have a weird feeling that, like, Oklahoma could just like run away with this. It might not be a very close postseason. I think they're so far and away the best team I've watched this year and we haven't had one of those in a while where it's just like, whoa, this train just left the station. So I think that in honor of that, there's nothing against Jokic. Jokic played one of the best basketball games I've ever seen in my Life was that 60 point game. But I just feel like it was shadier.
- [81:13]
Bill Simmons
I think OKC gets to the finals. Unless I think the Clippers are the only team that has a chance against them. I think they beat everybody else.
- [81:20]
Chris Ryan
I think they're just going to win. I think. I think this is their year.
- [81:23]
Bill Simmons
Certainly feels like it. Especially if Jaylen Brown isn't 100% Jalen Brown and they play Boston in a finals where they have home court and it's an 80% Jaylen Brown. And versus them versus Cleveland, I would just take them 10 out of 10 times anyway. Mahoney. CR I kept you way longer than I promised, but I had a good time. Thanks for popping on.
- [81:44]
Rob Mahoney
Thanks for having me, Bill.
- [81:45]
Bill Simmons
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- [84:03]
Brian Windhorst
We'll pretend that we know what's happened in the next two days, but we don't know what's happened. For all I know, Josh scored 56 tonight and beat the Warriors.
- [84:11]
Bill Simmons
Tonight was the greatest day of basketball ever had.
- [84:13]
Brian Windhorst
Ja rescued his reputation tonight and pushed the warriors to the Thunder. And what I'm trying to do here is sound smart if something like that happens.
- [84:21]
Bill Simmons
Ja retired the grenade celebration and had a 70 point game.
- [84:25]
Brian Windhorst
Yes.
- [84:25]
Bill Simmons
So I want to dive into your life, which I'm fascinated by you're in la, but you're doing get up.
- [84:32]
Brian Windhorst
Yes.
- [84:33]
Bill Simmons
And you told. What time did you get up? Did you get up?
- [84:36]
Brian Windhorst
I get up at like 3:41am When I'm here, when I'm doing get up. Not every day.
- [84:41]
Bill Simmons
What's your normal time zone? Which, which one are you on?
- [84:44]
Brian Windhorst
Time zone.
- [84:44]
Bill Simmons
So, okay, so you're two hours, but three hours behind et.
- [84:49]
Brian Windhorst
I love doing get up.
- [84:51]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [84:51]
Brian Windhorst
It's such a fun show to do. I'm not just saying that. I swear. I love working with Greenberg, I love working with their show. I don't want to do it 20 times a month, but. And it's playoffs, you know, so whatever. But it is hard to, like tonight it's going to be a struggle to stay up for this. Like, I'll be struggling in the fourth quarter.
- [85:12]
Bill Simmons
So you, you wake up. Quick shower, just to wake up. Are you getting coffee? Like, what's your.
- [85:19]
Brian Windhorst
I don't drink coffee. I don't. I don't drink coffee. So that's a problem. Okay, I get up.
- [85:23]
Bill Simmons
Do you have to put like self makeup?
- [85:26]
Brian Windhorst
No. Well, so it's a good question. See this here in the business. So I do put on self makeup. The makeup artists come about 6am because there starts your show starting around then. But I put on some powder at like 4:45.
- [85:41]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, yeah, that was. I remember my friend Rob Stone, who works for. Does a bunch of stuff for Fox. I've known forever. They ESPN let us do a college basketball game once at Pepperdine.
- [85:51]
Brian Windhorst
Amazing.
- [85:52]
Bill Simmons
And it was like in the mid-2000s. And we get there and we're about to go on. He pulls out this thing and he's doing this and I'm like, what are you doing? And he's like, I'm powdering up. Do you want some? I'm like, no. And it's like, well, you're going to regret it. And then he was right.
- [86:06]
Brian Windhorst
Well, like, the thing is like too much information. Like after I take a shower, I get like a red face. So I've got to, I got to do it. I got to put on the powder. So I've got like a little compact with me.
- [86:15]
Bill Simmons
And you put your little thing, your little head.
- [86:17]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah.
- [86:18]
Bill Simmons
And can you. Are you on the delay? Because that's always one of the hard things in those.
- [86:22]
Brian Windhorst
No. So, like, I'm here in la, we have a studio. I go into the studio.
- [86:26]
Bill Simmons
Oh, you go in?
- [86:27]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah. Oh, yeah. I walk. I mean, it's short distance from right.
- [86:31]
Bill Simmons
Hotel to the thing. Okay, I get it.
- [86:32]
Brian Windhorst
But during this, the playoffs, I'll be doing it for my hotel room a lot. I choose hotel rooms. I choose hotels in the playoffs based on when I can do a good morning TV setup. Like, I know this is gonna sound strange, but there was a hotel in Dallas last year.
- [86:48]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [86:49]
Brian Windhorst
That I picked. Cause I did it in the Western Conference finals and I came back for the finals that I knew they had high chairs in the lobby. I swiped. I came. I went to the bartender and said, hey, can I borrow one of these chairs? Because, you know, you got to sit on a high chair.
- [87:01]
Bill Simmons
He was like, hey, you're Brian Windhorst.
- [87:03]
Brian Windhorst
He didn't know who it was.
- [87:04]
Bill Simmons
Okay.
- [87:04]
Brian Windhorst
And I dragged it into the. Like a bar chair, into the elevator. I took it upstairs.
- [87:11]
Bill Simmons
They probably thought you were sitting there.
- [87:12]
Brian Windhorst
Because you need to sit on a high chair. You know, it doesn't look good when you're scrunched up. So you don't have that in a hotel room. So I. And I did it in Minneapolis, too. Like, I borrow chairs and take them to my room. Like when I'm on the road in the playoffs doing get up and first take in the morning. Like, sometimes I'm at the arenas where they have setups, but on nights, on days when I don't and I'm in a hotel, that's what I do. But when I'm in la, we have a studio. I don't.
- [87:35]
Bill Simmons
Well, and then you do. You attempt the craziest thing, which I have never done and will never do, is doing actual content on the court after games when people can interrupt you. Zach told me you could tell the story, though. Somebody interrupted you and came in and had some amazing story, and then it wasn't recording.
- [87:53]
Brian Windhorst
Do you know where I am?
- [87:55]
Bill Simmons
So what was that story?
- [87:56]
Brian Windhorst
So the Dan Hurley thing had just gone down. He came out here to the Lakers and got a new contract. It was after one of the games in Boston. Had to have been like, game two. Okay? And Zach and I are on the court and Gino is. Gino walks past. Because, you know, you're doing. On the court, it's just live. Like, we're constantly grabbing people who are walking by. Gino walks by, says hello to us. We're recording. Okay. And I. He had just signed a new contract. And I made this joke. I was like, hey, congrats on your new contract. I was a little worried they might not retain you.
- [88:31]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [88:32]
Brian Windhorst
Make a joke. He goes, yeah, I should have somebody. There was a job open. Oh, it's a Cleveland job. He goes, Yeah. I should have pretended like I was going to go to the Cavs. I could have got more money. Like, only half joking. I mean, maybe he was fully joking. I don't know. But it was like.
- [88:48]
Bill Simmons
Or maybe he wasn't joking at all.
- [88:50]
Brian Windhorst
It was an amazing moment. Like, oh, my God. I think he just took, like, a soft shot at Dan Hurley or maybe a hard shot. I don't know. And then, like, two minutes later, Cedric Maxwell walks by. And he's always good for talking shit about the Lakers.
- [89:08]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [89:09]
Brian Windhorst
And, you know, I think Boston got up 2. 0, and I prompted him to talk some trash, which he did, which is always great. Like, this is now, like, multiple finals in a row where I've gotten Max to do this. And it's almost like a trope. He knows Zach and I are sitting there with microphones. They all know what's going on. And so he makes, like, some sort of passing comment, making fun of the Lakers or James Worthy. And he keeps on walking and he walks because, you know, there's wires on the ground. He walks through the wires and he pulls it, and the recorder goes flying onto the court. Explodes open things that.
- [89:46]
Bill Simmons
When you lose everything.
- [89:47]
Brian Windhorst
We lost everything.
- [89:48]
Bill Simmons
Oh, my God. So that's like, my worst nightmare.
- [89:52]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah. I mean, and you know, Zach, like, Zach doesn't do the second take. Like, he was ready to, like, you know, walk. He's like, we're just not going to do it tonight. I go, no, Zach. With the game two of the finals, we need to do it. So, yeah, that happened.
- [90:07]
Bill Simmons
It's been really fun for me to watch your. Your. I don't know. I don't want to say rise, but, like, whatever the journey has been where you're at.
- [90:15]
Brian Windhorst
By the way, thank you for letting me have the Larry Bird Cup.
- [90:17]
Bill Simmons
I did. Well, you're a guest.
- [90:18]
Brian Windhorst
I wasn't sure I should take it.
- [90:21]
Bill Simmons
Watching the rise we talked about or the journey we talked. You came on after the Utah thing.
- [90:28]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah.
- [90:29]
Bill Simmons
The finger point, which is still going. Get up is still milking. That I know, as a gimmick for you.
- [90:35]
Brian Windhorst
It's milked everywhere across the country where I go.
- [90:37]
Bill Simmons
But then last year, you did the Luca thing during the finals, which I immediately took seriously because I've known you for a long time, and I don't think you do stuff like that lightly.
- [90:45]
Brian Windhorst
Right.
- [90:46]
Bill Simmons
And it felt like there was real thought put into it for a bunch of different reasons, and you were just like, fuck it. I'm doing this right now. I have all this different intel. I'm getting. I was at the same game you were, and I thought Luka really screwed the game up and just was acting like a brat that game. I'm Pro Luca, by the way, but he was bratty, and he really hurt them that game. And then you just said, fuck it and went for it.
- [91:10]
Brian Windhorst
I was angry because the finals were over. He. You know, he fell out of this game and the finals were over. And I thought it could have been a good series. Yeah. And the reason that I was having that visceral reaction was. Cause I'd seen him do it before. It was an international play. Two other times in his career, he got disqualified from essentially an elimination. It was an elimination game, which. That was an elimination game. It happened when he was on the Slovenian national team one time. He fouled out because he got a technical foul, which in international competition counts as a personal foul. And he fouled out on a technical, like in the European. The Euro cup, the eurobasket they call it. They were their defending champs. One of the great moments of his career, by the way, was winning EuroBasket with Slovenia. Slovenia. It's laughable that they could win. Not laughable. It's impressive.
- [92:02]
Bill Simmons
I would say impossible.
- [92:04]
Brian Windhorst
They won the European Championship, like, in the late teens, and then when they had their. They were defending their title, he got ejected from the game. They got eliminated. It was ridiculous. And then in the World cup in the Philippines in 23. So a year earlier, he got thrown out of the quarterfinals. Now, they probably would have lost the game, but, like, in the middle of the game, he was angry at the officials, and he went over to half court. This is in Manila, Philippines. I know. Nobody watched it. It was in the middle of the night. And he is cursing out the Secretary General of fiba, like, the free throws are going on. He comes down and curses out the Secretary general in Spanish. I know, because I was talking to the people who were sitting next to the Secretary General.
- [92:52]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [92:52]
Brian Windhorst
Who knows what he was saying? But can you imagine in a game, because you know where Adam Silver sits. Secretary General was sitting kind of in the same spot, like, midway up the deck. Can you imagine, like, going over and cursing out Adam Silver because Scott Foster had just called a foul? It's ridiculous. And by the way, the idea that they would not want Luka Doncic and Slovenia advancing. It's a preposterous conspiracy. And then a few minutes later, he got a second technical and got thrown out of the game. And I'm like, luka, what are you doing? The only chance Slovenia has is if you're great. How are you getting thrown out of these elimination games? So I didn't. I was. That was at least the third time that I know of. And I don't know his whole career that he had allowed himself to be basically getting disqualified because the sixth foul was a preposterous foul. It was a ridiculous foul. And his behavior the whole game was ridiculous. And so I was angry that I'd seen him for the third time, the second time in person in less than a year, disqualified from an elimination game where he totally undercut his team for.
- [93:57]
Bill Simmons
For just petulance.
- [93:59]
Brian Windhorst
Yes. And I was. I was criticizing him, obviously, but I was. The reason I was angry was because he's so much better than that.
- [94:09]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [94:10]
Brian Windhorst
And that's what I was saying. I was like, that's not winning. You know, winning is what the Celtics are doing. This is, what you're doing is losing. This is a losing mentality. And so.
- [94:22]
Bill Simmons
Obviously the Mavericks agreed with you.
- [94:24]
Brian Windhorst
Well, the people in Dallas did not agree with me because it was not the most fun next two days.
- [94:28]
Bill Simmons
I was going to say, yeah, because I don't remember if I saw you after that, but we were there for an off day. And then.
- [94:35]
Brian Windhorst
And then Luka came back and played great in game four. Yeah, like, played defense, like, was focused and people were like, oh, he proved you wrong. And I was like, no, you're down.
- [94:45]
Bill Simmons
3:1 in the series. You proved nothing.
- [94:47]
Brian Windhorst
It was upsetting because he could have played that way the whole time. And you know what's funny about this? I was. I don't remember what day there's one day off in between games three and game four. It's the only time there's one day off in the finals. And so there was one day off in between. And then there was the whole pre game for game four. I was in the arena for many hours the next two days, and all kinds of mavericks people were there, front office people, coaching staff, executives, what have you. Nobody said anything to me. Nobody said.
- [95:20]
Bill Simmons
Nobody defended him.
- [95:21]
Brian Windhorst
Well, I don't. I mean, I'm not saying was in there. I'm not saying they had to. I'm just saying, like, I was prepared.
- [95:27]
Bill Simmons
Oh, to get blown to. Yeah.
- [95:30]
Brian Windhorst
And Jason Kidd said some stuff in the press conference. Like he was like, defending Luca, which he should, but like. No, I was available. Like, if, like, trust me, I get when I say something that pisses people off, not every day, but, you know, people will reach out to me. Like, you were wrong about this.
- [95:49]
Bill Simmons
Well, especially at the finals, you're Gonna run into them the next day. So there's a heightened level of something.
- [95:55]
Brian Windhorst
I mean, at the time, I didn't think, like, I wasn't, like, noticing, boy, no one's saying anything to me. I was like, well, they're down 3, 0 and the series is over. They're not really in the.
- [96:04]
Bill Simmons
Well, I said. I said on one of the pods I did this week about Minnesota Lakers, I can't remember because I did my pod. Then I went on Zach's. I really feel like Minnesota, as a game plan in that series, should be to mess with Luca and try to get him. I've watched it happen multiple times already in this Lakers season.
- [96:24]
Brian Windhorst
He.
- [96:25]
Bill Simmons
For some reason, and I kind of. I gotta be honest, I kind of like it because it's almost like. He almost seems Italian to me, even though he's Slovenian. But he just takes everything personally. If somebody talks shit to him, he can't believe it. And he'll just keep it going for five minutes. He'll talk to people in the first two rows. He'll get mad at a ref and keep going with the ref for 10 minutes. And then the. The thing that really bugs him, which is so funny, I think he's the only guy in the league that does this. If there's a foul on him, like, somebody fouls him and the guy who fouled him is then turning the ref and complaining about thing, and Luca thinks it was a foul, he actually gets, like, offended and he'll, like, get involved in the argument and he'll stop and he'll just go back and forth. But he just. He plays with such a chip on his shoulder. I feel like you could use it against him. You look at Minnesota, they have Edwards, they have McDaniels, they have Alexander Walker, like Randall. They have some guys who can, I think, mess with them.
- [97:21]
Brian Windhorst
Well, I will say this. I've been talking to their. You know, the guys who covered the Mavericks. He's had ongoing feuds with individual fans for years. Like, sometimes fans. No, no. On the road. Like, there's a. You know, because he got into it. The guy in Oklahoma City two weeks ago. Apparently, that's not the first time those guys have gotten into it. Or if not, it was somebody nearby. Like, he goes. I mean, like, actually, I don't have a problem with him getting into it with fans. I would rather him go back and forth with a fan or the opposing player as opposed to getting back in it with the refs. Because when he gets back and forth with the refs, he hurts his team.
- [97:55]
Bill Simmons
Well. And they just get so fed up with him after a while, too.
- [97:58]
Brian Windhorst
Right. Well, that play, like, he was incorrectly ejected from that game in Oklahoma City. Nobody would question that. He was. Obviously, he was talking to the fan. But the ref, I believe, was J.T. orr had hurt. There was not even contact on that play. He scored on the interior. There was no contact. There was nothing for him to really complain about. But the ref has heard him for years. And did you see what he did? He, like, wound up and gave him. Baseball umpire get out of here.
- [98:24]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [98:25]
Brian Windhorst
This is what happens with. With Draymond, too. Like, the refs, like, they are so tired of hearing it that they.
- [98:33]
Bill Simmons
There's one other guy that's. If you were doing the first team all NBA for this, the sneaky guy in this team is Tatum. This is a running thing with him all year. He just. And, you know, obviously I'm a Celtics fan, so I'm. I see his side on it because I do feel like he gets. Doesn't get the benefit of the calls all the time, but now so that he does this wave thing.
- [98:56]
Brian Windhorst
Ref.
- [98:57]
Bill Simmons
Certain things trigger refs, and one of them is the dismissive wave. They just fucking hate it. They really don't like it. He gets whistled on that over and over again. Or they hold it against him. And it's weird because I think he's probably the quietest, most unassuming superstar we have.
- [99:12]
Brian Windhorst
He's a really good guy.
- [99:14]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. And this is like his one thing. Like, he just gets really pissed about it.
- [99:17]
Brian Windhorst
I've had the opportunity to spend a lot of time with him@team USA.
- [99:21]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [99:21]
Brian Windhorst
I spent three weeks covering him in China. In 19, I spent. We weren't as close in the 2021. When I say we weren't as close, I'm talking about we couldn't get as close because of COVID in Tokyo. But still, he was, by the way, was awesome with the Tokyo team. I kind of feel like people didn't watch that final, that Olympics. It was just off and everything. I don't. I don't. I didn't. Nobody ever talks about that Olympics. Durant was absolutely freaking great.
- [99:46]
Bill Simmons
I honestly can't even remember what happened, but I don't remember anything. I don't remember 20, 2020.
- [99:51]
Brian Windhorst
Tatum was arguably their second best player.
- [99:53]
Bill Simmons
Well, it felt like Tatum was going to have this arc where he was going to be one of the best American because he was just such a perfect.
- [100:00]
Brian Windhorst
He still can.
- [100:00]
Bill Simmons
Olympic guy.
- [100:01]
Brian Windhorst
He still can. Like, he's got plenty of time we're going to be here in LA in three years, four years, whatever.
- [100:06]
Bill Simmons
Well, they. I mean, he's the number one guy they need for. Just because of what he does specifically.
- [100:12]
Brian Windhorst
He is a perfect international player, and he was that in that Olympics. They were in big trouble against Australia in the semifinals.
- [100:22]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [100:23]
Brian Windhorst
Australia had been building toward that game for a decade. You know, their guys, you know, Patty Mills and Joe Ingalls and. Who am I forgetting? I mean, the golden generation of. They won the bronze. They ended up getting their first ever medal.
- [100:41]
Bill Simmons
No, this was their sports movie, and this was the ending of the sports.
- [100:44]
Brian Windhorst
They're ahead by 12 or 14 in the third quarter, which. International basketball is like 25, because the games are shorter.
- [100:50]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [100:50]
Brian Windhorst
And Popovich goes to a triangle in two, which they had practiced, like, for, like, barely part of one practice. Australia, like, staggers for, like, three possessions. They've never seen the Americans do this before. Durant hits, like, three threes. Tatum misses shot. I can't remember who else but Durant turned it because Durant was untouchable. You know, Durant was coming off the Achilles and played because he loves Team USA so much. It was such a wholesome moment. They come back and beat Australia. It's a great comeback. Nobody ever remembers it if they had lost. People remember it forever. And then they play a really competitive game with France in the title game, where Tatum, I think, played really well. Like, Jrue Holiday was huge, defending in the semifinals and finals.
- [101:41]
Bill Simmons
That's when all the coaches really fell in love with him.
- [101:43]
Brian Windhorst
Yes.
- [101:44]
Bill Simmons
One of the things I like about you is you love international basketball and taking big, giant takeaways from them even more than I do.
- [101:52]
Brian Windhorst
Well, they just.
- [101:53]
Bill Simmons
I really value it. I think it's such an interesting kind of laboratory to put all these great players in and see how they're going to respond. Like the fact that Jokic, you know, almost beat Team USA by himself, and it was sitting there for him, and, you know, he didn't have the most amazing game, but the fact was his team thought he was the best guy on the court, and he gave them the chance, and then they missed some shots.
- [102:18]
Brian Windhorst
The Serbians are fascinating, the way they play. Bogie Bogdanovic is like when you. The same way with Patty Mills. If you watch Patty Mills, he's now. He's past his prime. But Patty Mills, if you squinted, you thought he was Steve Nash. The way he plays for the team Australia in 2019 in China, which was the World cup in China, they ended up finishing out of the medals There. But he played a couple of games where you're like, why isn't this guy a Hall of Famer?
- [102:47]
Bill Simmons
Well, remember the Spain team in the 2000s where, like, Juan Carlos Navarro, why.
- [102:50]
Brian Windhorst
Isn'T this guy La Bamba?
- [102:52]
Bill Simmons
Why isn't this guy a 13?
- [102:53]
Brian Windhorst
Well, Spain won in 2019. The Americans had a terrible team. Tatum was on that team and he was leading them.
- [102:59]
Bill Simmons
Tweener team.
- [103:00]
Brian Windhorst
He sprained his ankle in a game against Turkey that they win in overtime. And again, I'm in Shanghai on a Saturday night. It's the middle of the night in America. No one cares. And Ersan Eliasova is kicking our ass, right? And Tatum is saving the day. They end up going to overtime. And Tatum sprains his ankle in overtime and he's cooked the rest of the way. And we end up in seventh. Seventh. But anyway, in that game, Ricky Rubio. So now you gotta remember the Ricky Rubio story.
- [103:34]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [103:34]
Brian Windhorst
Rubio was boy wonder for Spain, age.
- [103:39]
Bill Simmons
17, playing against the US in 08.
- [103:42]
Brian Windhorst
Exactly. Comes to Beijing. They've made documentaries about this game. Rubio is trash. He was trash in the game. He was miserable in this arena. Now we are now 11 years later. Rubio's gone through his career. He's had a middling career. He's had his moments. 2019, he is playing in the same arena. They are playing against Argentina in the final. Luis Scola turns the clock back, somehow gets Argentinians to the final. Rubio is amazing. Dancing on air. Marc Gasol has just won the title with Toronto. A few months later, he wins the gold medal. You know, this is, you know, the Spanish get this world championship. They're celebrating. Rubio is amazing. Rubio is named, is named an mvp. His mother has just died, like, of breast cancer. A few months before he comes over, we televised the game at espn. Again, no one had watched this because why are you watching in the middle of. Or, you know, maybe it's at, you.
- [104:42]
Bill Simmons
Know, I might have been watching it.
- [104:43]
Brian Windhorst
It was at 2am Whatever. And Rubio is having the greatest moment of his career. He's won the MVP for Spain in the arena. And I ask him, I do the post game interview because I'm doing the sideline interview. Rubio does like seven interviews, like, because he's, you know, all the world feeds. He does, you know, France and whatever. And I asked him about his mother and he starts crying. No one ever saw this. It's the greatest. I'll never do. I don't do sideline interviews, but I will never. I could Do a hundred of them and never do a better interview. Rubio is in tears having this amazing moment. And the average NBA fan, you could even be a Rubio fan, and you don't know about this moment where he wins and subsequently, basically, he quits basketball because of mental health stuff.
- [105:30]
Bill Simmons
I still feel like if you redo. That's a classic. Let's redo the career and try another outcome. Let's just hit the reset button on the video game and bring him into the NBA.
- [105:42]
Brian Windhorst
And Chase, he got drafted instead of Steph Curry, and then he didn't come over right away, and he ended up.
- [105:46]
Bill Simmons
On the dumbest team ever. Kobe fell into his. It was just. Everything went wrong for four years. I still feel like there was a lot of moments.
- [105:53]
Brian Windhorst
That's what I get in international basketball. You have these moments. Bogie Bogdanovich is in a feud with his coach. This guy. If you saw what's the Netflix series they had him on there. Portugal passage. He's this old, hard, mean sob. And he and Bogdanovich got into it during the 2023 World Cup. Jokic didn't play. I don't know why Jokic didn't play. I can speculate as to why jokers didn't play. Whatever. Jokic doesn't play. And it's really hard to qualify for the Olympics. It's really hard because you got to go through all this qualifying, you know, and the Serbians, I'm like, well, Jokic doesn't play in Serbian qualifying because you got to be one. You got to be the top two European finishers at the World cup to qualify. I'm like, they ain't qualifying well. Bogdanovic, after getting benched by this coach, has this incredible run in the knockout rounds, carries Serbia to the championship. And yeah, they lose, but they qualify for the Olympics. And I'm going again, like, nobody cares about this, but I'm sitting there going, well, this is a bad break for the United States. Serbia disqualified for the Olympics, and now Jokic will see them in Paris. And I was worried.
- [107:09]
Bill Simmons
And by the way, he really cares.
- [107:11]
Brian Windhorst
I was worried about Team USA losing to Serbia in August of 23 when the Serbians qualified. And then they set up the schedule so that Serbia got three looks at the US they played them in Dubai for an exhibition game, which, again, nobody cares. But they got a look at them. Then they played them in the pool play. And then they got him in the knockout rounds. And Pesage and Jokic and all those dudes played it to set up the United States to go after him. They didn't care what the score was in the pool play game. Yeah, they set them. They set it up to go. They were thinking about it for months. The draw that got Serbia into the USA's pool was, like, in February. They started thinking in February about that night in August when they could get them in the semifinal. They didn't know it would be the semifinal, but they knew they would see them. And they set the whole thing up. And they took money, extra money to go to Abu Dhabi and play. I'm telling you, all building up to that moment. And the average fan, USA fan, doesn't care. I don't blame him. I'm just telling you, all that drama is going into it. And Steve Kerr and Sean Ford, like, the general manager, USA Basketball, like, they're thinking about it for months. Like, as Steve Kerr is coaching the warriors last year, he's like, I know, but I got to worry about Serbia. And Jeff Van Gundy is, like, consulting with the Celtics. Yeah, Jeff Van Gundy, he's, He's on the USA staff. He's thinking about Serbia, Serbia, Serbia, Serbia.
- [108:41]
Bill Simmons
Well, then you also have France at home is the other one, of course.
- [108:44]
Brian Windhorst
Which the French were actually in the middle of imploding, and then they rallied back.
- [108:48]
Bill Simmons
But it's weird because I actually think they really could have used Tatum in those games, and I understand why he didn't play. And, you know, I think in a.
- [108:56]
Brian Windhorst
Weird way, you are in the minority because.
- [108:58]
Bill Simmons
No, I, I, I really get it. I, I just think they won the title, and he was worn out, and he had a kid, and he missed a couple practices and his shot was off. And also, Steve doesn't give a shit.
- [109:11]
Brian Windhorst
Here's the thing. You can't. I keep saying this. People don't listen to me. It's fine. I don't care. International basketball is so vastly different.
- [109:22]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [109:22]
Brian Windhorst
The difference between 40 and 48 minutes, I cannot underline how big of a difference it is. It is so different.
- [109:30]
Bill Simmons
Especially the flow of the game is in person. That's the weirdest thing to get used to.
- [109:34]
Brian Windhorst
Also the five fouls, things won't stop.
- [109:36]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, right. You get, all of a sudden, somebody has four fouls, there's 15 minutes left in the game.
- [109:41]
Brian Windhorst
Right. And so other thing is, the NBA mindset is if you get down 15, it doesn't matter.
- [109:49]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. You can always come back.
- [109:51]
Brian Windhorst
You can't play that one.
- [109:51]
Bill Simmons
Well, you also can't chase calls in that international version. You can't lurch into somebody and you can't get bailed out left and right.
- [110:00]
Brian Windhorst
It's the inverse of the NBA. So here's the thing. In the NBA, there's this inherent bias that everybody wants the Lakers and the Celtics to do well. And whether or not that's true or.
- [110:08]
Bill Simmons
Not, it's definitely the Lakers part.
- [110:11]
Brian Windhorst
Of course, nothing ever goes the Celtics way. You're right.
- [110:13]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. We haven't gotten one break in the international game.
- [110:18]
Brian Windhorst
They want the US to lose.
- [110:20]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [110:21]
Brian Windhorst
Like, when the US Loses, the FIBA officials are over there giving each other high fives under the table. They want the US to lose because they want it to be more of a global game.
- [110:30]
Bill Simmons
Well, would you change? So I. I've said this every four years. I would. I would put a cap on the age of the guys we have.
- [110:38]
Brian Windhorst
So this is.
- [110:39]
Bill Simmons
You have to be in your 20s or your teens, and that's it.
- [110:42]
Brian Windhorst
So here's my recommendation. And I know that people are probably turning off the pod because we're talking about international basketball.
- [110:47]
Bill Simmons
No, this is great stuff.
- [110:49]
Brian Windhorst
So the next World cup is in 2027. I will give you all the money in my wallet if you tell, because you obviously need it. All the money in my wallet if you can tell me where the World cup is being played in 2027, I'd give you seven guesses. You're not going to take that and be boring, but you get. You have any idea where the World cup is being played?
- [111:07]
Bill Simmons
Isn't it somewhere weird like Saudi Arabia?
- [111:10]
Brian Windhorst
You're close.
- [111:10]
Bill Simmons
Where is it?
- [111:11]
Brian Windhorst
Saudi Arabia. Probably be the next one. It's in Doha. It's in Qatar.
- [111:15]
Bill Simmons
Oh, my God.
- [111:16]
Brian Windhorst
Okay.
- [111:16]
Bill Simmons
Are you going?
- [111:17]
Brian Windhorst
I don't want to. It'll be an awesome.
- [111:20]
Bill Simmons
It's like you're on a plane for a day and a half. Right.
- [111:23]
Brian Windhorst
I've gone to Abu Dhabi the last two summers with TM USA and absolutely loved it. And I know that it's.
- [111:29]
Bill Simmons
You're a big Abu Dhabi guy.
- [111:30]
Brian Windhorst
I love Abu Dhabi. And, you know, the NBA is getting closer to there. And His Excellency Muhammad Al Mubarak is the head of the chairman. I call him the chairman of the Department of Culture and Tourism.
- [111:50]
Bill Simmons
He is possible podcast for you, podcast partner.
- [111:53]
Brian Windhorst
I would love to have him on a podcast. He'd be great on a podcast.
- [111:55]
Bill Simmons
He knows the Endhorsten is Excellence, the.
- [111:58]
Brian Windhorst
New podcast you get along with. Well, he hates the Celtics, but he went to school at Northeastern and he told me this great story. By the way, his brother is Khaldun Al Mubarak, who runs the City football group. Man City runs man city. That's his brother. His brother's a couple years older than him. He was going to school in Boston. I'm not sure if it's a Northeastern or something else. He comes to visit his brother. He's 16 years old. They go to a Celtics game. This is like the ruling family of Abu Dhabi. They go to a Celtic Celtics game. And he's a big Laker fan, because why wouldn't he be? Because, you know, he lives in Abu Dhabi. Why wouldn't he be a Laker fan? So they go to The Laker. The 2010 finals. He's going to a Finals game, Lakers, Celtics. He's wearing a Laker jersey. He doesn't know. He doesn't know any better, okay? He doesn't understand.
- [112:48]
Bill Simmons
So he's in Boston with the Lakers.
- [112:50]
Brian Windhorst
He's going to a finals game in Boston, okay? And he comes up, and he and his brother sit down. And right next to him are these. This husband and wife in their 70s. And they've got, like, the. You know, the husband's wearing, like, this old Larry Bird jersey that he probably had since 82. And the wife is all dressed up, and they're all dressed out, and they're all ready. And he goes down and says, oh, hey, how are you? He thinks it's charming. And the woman looks over at him and flips him off, like, welcome to Boston. So he goes to school in Boston. Anyway, he knows the NBA extremely well. He would love to be heavily invested in the NBA. I've spent quite a bit of time with him. I like him a lot. I know that there's challenges when you're doing business in the Middle east or whatever. I don't pretend to know. I'm not trying to cast aspersions.
- [113:40]
Bill Simmons
The global windy. It's even more impressive than some of my connections I had.
- [113:47]
Brian Windhorst
For example, he would make comments. He was talking about a certain Lakers player. I don't want to put his business out there. He was talking about a certain Lakers player who's no longer on the team. And he says the reason his teammates don't like him is because he doesn't play defense. That's why they don't like him. This is the kind of commentary he's giving. He watches it games in the morning when he's, like, on the treadmill. He's watching Laker games. Like, when I first met him, he was traditionally dressed, but then he sits down. He's wearing Jordans. So he's super into it. Last year when the US went to Abu Dhabi to play, he came and addressed the team on the first day of practice and he very begrudgingly congratulated Tatum Jrue Holiday. And who was the third Celtic? Derek White. Congratulations.
- [114:36]
Bill Simmons
So he's not in the new ownership group, I'm going to guess.
- [114:38]
Brian Windhorst
You know, if they allowed him to buy it, he would have bought it, but they don't allow the sovereign wealth funds to.
- [114:45]
Bill Simmons
Did you think it would get to 6 billion?
- [114:47]
Brian Windhorst
No. Also, the team's not sold yet.
- [114:51]
Bill Simmons
Don't start with that.
- [114:52]
Brian Windhorst
They've not sold yet.
- [114:53]
Bill Simmons
No. That's ridiculous.
- [114:55]
Brian Windhorst
No, I did not think they would get to 6 billion. And Wick Griesbach all the way through said, I'm going to get my price. I'm going to get my deal. Which enables him to stay as good.
- [115:03]
Bill Simmons
I'm going to get Adam Silver's price. That's what it was.
- [115:06]
Brian Windhorst
Well, his price too.
- [115:07]
Bill Simmons
The number was six.
- [115:09]
Brian Windhorst
They got more than six.
- [115:10]
Bill Simmons
Well, when you throw in like that little bully tax you have for the other owners, it's six one plus. It actually, that. That part goes into the Sevens, from.
- [115:19]
Brian Windhorst
What I understand, and you know, the deal's not official or whatever, but from what I understand, you know, they're buying 51% this year at 6 and they're buying the other 49% at like 7.
- [115:31]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [115:32]
Brian Windhorst
And so the price is actually. It's higher than they're being in their site.
- [115:36]
Bill Simmons
It's Boston Celtics. Not a lot of. Not a lot of franchises in pro sports like that. But yeah, it's nuts. They have. No, they don't own their own arena now. They have an incredible power spot in that arena because if they decide to start building their own, the place they're in now is screwed. So they'll be fine.
- [115:54]
Brian Windhorst
Well, I would just say this about the Celtics. I think Sportico reported this. I haven't heard this, but Sportico is good at their business. I think they probably got it because the Celtics financials got out there because they had to give. They had to show them to people. They had bidders. The Celtics made $450 million last year. That was their revenue. Just great. Probably I don't have the whole league, but definitely top five, maybe top three.
- [116:20]
Bill Simmons
Well, especially once you go four rounds in the playoffs. That is a whole other level.
- [116:25]
Brian Windhorst
It was probably. It was, I feel comfortable saying, was the largest revenue season in the history of the Celtics franchise.
- [116:32]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [116:33]
Brian Windhorst
Their payroll next year is 450 million.
- [116:36]
Bill Simmons
If it's the exact same roster.
- [116:39]
Brian Windhorst
Fine. I'm Just saying, though, that, like, why did Wick. Why did the Groozbach family want to sell now? Because they know that their payrolls are equal to their revenue.
- [116:50]
Bill Simmons
So I don't believe that I actually. I'm going to push back. I don't think that's why. I think the dad was old and I don't think he's 90. And I think they have four kids.
- [117:00]
Brian Windhorst
Hey, listen, I don't know. I'm not in their family. I don't know.
- [117:03]
Bill Simmons
He hadn't been to a game since 2010. I think he's like, let's sell this thing. We won the title. Let's go. And that, that. I really think it was that simple. Do I think Wick want to sell it? No.
- [117:12]
Brian Windhorst
Well, he's not selling it. He gets to run it for three more years.
- [117:16]
Bill Simmons
He gets to run it for up to three more years.
- [117:18]
Brian Windhorst
Okay.
- [117:19]
Bill Simmons
That this new owner, whenever he feels like, okay, I'm feeling good on all my business side. I'm ready to take over.
- [117:27]
Brian Windhorst
I am not claiming to have inside information. But you think that the fact that they are going to spend as much money on payroll as they take in next year, in other words, they're facing hundreds of millions of dollars in losses. You think that had nothing to do with.
- [117:43]
Bill Simmons
I don't.
- [117:44]
Brian Windhorst
Okay.
- [117:45]
Bill Simmons
I don't.
- [117:45]
Brian Windhorst
You would know better than me.
- [117:46]
Bill Simmons
I think this was a. I really think this was a family thing. And I think there was a lot going on that had nothing to do with the fortunes that. That guy Irv, the 90 year old, the legend, he's made a kajillion dollars. Like he's. You think he cares that they have some big packs?
- [118:01]
Brian Windhorst
I know he's got a lot more.
- [118:03]
Bill Simmons
Now, the thing is, I don't think this would be the same roster, which is why the Celtics. This little run is so interesting. Not only trying to go back to back, but. But odds are this won't be the same nucleus.
- [118:14]
Brian Windhorst
Let me ask you this. If you win again, does that mean you keep the roster together or you can start.
- [118:20]
Bill Simmons
It's the age old thing, right? Like Dallas didn't do it, right? In 11, we've seen teams say, like, yeah, we took that. Like, we've seen teams like the Pistons in the late 80s where they left Mohorn unprotected. I personally do not think the expensive guys will all be together next year, but I don't know, it just seems like it would make more sense for them if you're paying, let's say holiday or poor Zingus. You're paying those guys 34 million. But with all the other things that come into play, those guys now are worth a hundred million dollars. And you could reset that when you lose one guy and you're weaker in one spot. But you still have Tatum and Brown, right?
- [118:59]
Brian Windhorst
Well, I would hold on to Tatum and Brown as long as possible.
- [119:02]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Because everybody always thinks Jalen's the one that they would trade. But. But as you know, and this is why with the Durant stuff, I just, I'm doing a lot of. Yeah. Budding with the Durant stuff. Like, well, they're going to trade Durant. It's like, okay, cool. He makes $55 million a year and everybody is handcuffed by this tax in some way. It's not that it's not easy like it was. It's not easy to just get somebody that's making 55 to 60.
- [119:27]
Brian Windhorst
I agree. A Durant trade is going to be complicated because if I don't know what Kevin wants, and I would never. I've learned my lesson not to guess what Kevin wants. If he wants to go to a contender, that contender is going to have a high payroll. Probably. You know that those trades are hard. The Sons are in the second apron.
- [119:46]
Bill Simmons
Well, also, if you're trading him to a team that's over an apron, then once we start getting into the. I can only take one guy back and it's. It's really stupid.
- [119:57]
Brian Windhorst
So I would just say, like I wrote a story about the Suns published this week. I mentioned in there, with the help of Bobby Marks, Devin Booker is eligible for a two year extension this year for 150 million. I'm going to say that again. He's eligible for an extension for two years and 150. That's 75 million a year.
- [120:21]
Bill Simmons
Wow. Nobody's even at 65 yet. Right.
- [120:24]
Brian Windhorst
Because it's three years from now.
- [120:26]
Bill Simmons
Oh, my God.
- [120:27]
Brian Windhorst
Okay, so we're projecting the cap out there, but the cap is going to be.
- [120:31]
Bill Simmons
Not on my own NBA team, Devin.
- [120:32]
Brian Windhorst
Booker, we didn't have a good year. But forget about that. My point is, is that the max contracts are headed towards 75 million a year. Not in 2035. I'm talking about if Devin gets the max this summer, which quite frankly, I don't know how they're going to get away with not paying him. Because if you don't pay him, then what sort of message are you sending?
- [120:53]
Bill Simmons
Well, you could call Daryl Morey and ask how that worked out.
- [120:56]
Brian Windhorst
Well, that's true. Devin's 28, though he's not 34.
- [121:01]
Bill Simmons
I don't know where this goes because I think I've talked to a bunch of people about it on both sides and just the owners in general, they're always going to be smarter and they're always going to get whatever they want to get done, actually get done. And they're trying to put in all these protections basically against themselves. They're basically childproofing all of the, you know, electrical outlets around their house because they don't want to stick. Have their kids stick their finger in.
- [121:29]
Brian Windhorst
That's exactly. That's a good.
- [121:30]
Bill Simmons
That's like eight owners who will just say, oh, what's this? And they get electrocuted and that's all they care about. And, and I don't think the players, I, I just don't think they saw their side. I don't think saw it correctly and they didn't see how hard this was going to be with keeping teams together, keeping players in cities. And eventually I think there's going to be a backlash with the salaries and we're going to move toward a little bit more like the Hollywood system where you have your two guys on the poster and then everybody else is way down there. And I don't think the union realizes that.
- [122:01]
Brian Windhorst
I think the Clippers are ahead of the. The Clippers were targeted.
- [122:04]
Bill Simmons
Perfect.
- [122:05]
Brian Windhorst
The Clippers figured this out first. Number one, when they negotiated with Kawhi, he didn't get the max. He got close to the max. This was, in my view, this is going to be the new normal. The idea that these guys in mid career, oh, it's time for a contract extension. You want the max? Here you go. They're going to get extended, but they're not going to get. They're not just going to be assumption. You're not going to. How many max. How many guys right now are making the max contract? Now? I'm not talking about their max because this is a thing the agents play and we help them with it in the media. I'm not looking to, but like a player's max is the most he can get versus the actual max. How many guys right now in the league are making the quote unquote max? There's dozens. Three years from now, I think there's going to be a third of that amount.
- [122:46]
Bill Simmons
So you think it's going to be like more of a Jalen Brunson type of situation?
- [122:49]
Brian Windhorst
I think in a situation with Jalen Brunson, you're going to. There's teams are going to. I Think he's still signed for less than he could have got. The teams are going to, they're going to, they're going to give them, they're going to get hundreds of millions but they're not going to. All of us just get the max. Like you're not going to get okay mid career all star player. You're not getting 35%.
- [123:08]
Bill Simmons
So you don't think we'll see Bradley Beal getting a no trade clause and 50 million again.
- [123:12]
Brian Windhorst
That would be a good thing is to put in a little canister, you know, for the future. When is the next no trade clause? Well, I know LeBron will get it when he opts out and re ups this year with the Lakers, but when is the next new no trade clause coming?
- [123:24]
Bill Simmons
You think LeBron will get a no trade? Yeah, I think he will again.
- [123:28]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah. Why would he, why would he, he would just opt in if he, he has to get it.
- [123:33]
Bill Simmons
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- [124:48]
Brian Windhorst
So did I. So did I.
- [124:50]
Bill Simmons
He entered the league. I had been, I had been working for espn I think for a year. I had, I did have a dog at that point. I think I was married, no kids. Like this is. I just don't get it, Bill.
- [125:07]
Brian Windhorst
I had a flip phone. He had a flip phone. Like it was laughable. The iPhone was. When he came in the league, we were four years away from Twitter. We Were three, four years away from the iPhone.
- [125:19]
Bill Simmons
I just like the Hummer was a car that mattered.
- [125:23]
Brian Windhorst
Yes. When he came into the league. I remember my first trade deadline covering the Cavs. This is how trade deadline day went. I went to practice, the shoot around it, or it was practice. I did my post practice interview. I went to lunch. I was at lunch eating a sandwich. My cell phone rings. Hello. Jim Paxton, the general manager Cavs. Hey.
- [125:46]
Bill Simmons
Hey.
- [125:46]
Brian Windhorst
I just wanna let you know, we traded for Flip Murray. Oh, really? What'd you trade for him? 2004, second round pick. Oh, Kelly, why'd you trade for him? Well, he's gonna help us with scoring off the bench. Okay. All right, I'll see you tomorrow. Click. Keep eating my lunch, you know, Two hours later, went home. Then I wrote my story that published in the newspaper in the morning. None of this. Minute by minute, trying to find out, like, who was getting traded. Like, oh, my God, the gentleman called and was like, hey, we made a trade. Oh, really? You know, like, that's how you found out about trade. When the Cavs traded for Shaquille O'Neal. And that was not in 2000. That was not 1997. That was like, actually, like, that was in the Twitter era. That was like, 2009. 2010, I think. 2009. Danny Ferry just called me up. He's like, yeah, we traded for Shaquille O'Neal. Oh, okay. What'd you give? Well, you give Ben Wallace in the first round. That's how it happened. You weren't like, waiting, you know, on top of it.
- [126:45]
Bill Simmons
You know, it was basically the ticker on espn.
- [126:49]
Brian Windhorst
Yes.
- [126:49]
Bill Simmons
Was breaking a lot of stuff. Even the website wasn't really. And I was writing for it at that point. It wasn't really set up to be like, oh, this happened. Boom, let's go.
- [126:59]
Brian Windhorst
And in 2009, Twitter was around, but people weren't paying attention as a news feed.
- [127:03]
Bill Simmons
No.
- [127:04]
Brian Windhorst
So it like, you know, like, Twitter was like. That was.
- [127:07]
Bill Simmons
There was two years, everybody just went on Twitter to, like, make jokes.
- [127:10]
Brian Windhorst
Yes. That was LeBron's. That was LeBron. I was happening in LeBron's career. That's how it was. And now look at it.
- [127:18]
Bill Simmons
It's pretty nuts. I even think how different things were just from, you go the year that Twitter took off 09. And there were all these stages with Twitter. Right. The decision was a stage. The Blake Griffin being the first kind of guy who, when he dunked, maybe you could see some grainy video of it on Twitter. And he became the first social Media dunk guy. Then the DeAndre Jordan thing was another great one where that was in real time. We're following through Twitter how that's going. So it's had these.
- [127:53]
Brian Windhorst
My first big Twitter thing was the LeBron free agent meetings. Because nowadays free agent meetings, like, first off, like, by July 1st, they're all done. Nobody goes on free agent meeting tours anymore. Secondly, they do it all in secret. You know, it's people's houses and stuff.
- [128:12]
Bill Simmons
Or three, four months before free agency starts.
- [128:15]
Brian Windhorst
Or a year. Yeah.
- [128:16]
Bill Simmons
Or. Oh, I didn't realize you were going to be at this dinner.
- [128:18]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, yeah.
- [128:20]
Bill Simmons
With the owner of the team that has cap space. Have you met him? This is Bob.
- [128:26]
Brian Windhorst
Listen, I saw Joel Embiid and Paul George on the Countdown set during the finals last year. Right. That was an amazing moment. It was an amazing moment. And, you know, Joelle gave him the side eye. I mean, like, it's a little bit manufactured. Obviously, Joelle and Paul George had communicated before that meeting.
- [128:43]
Bill Simmons
All these dudes know each other, of course.
- [128:45]
Brian Windhorst
Well, anyway, the day of the free agent meetings, like, was three days. They were having them at this office building in Cleveland, and the teams were just walking into the lobby, and I was just sitting in the lobby, and I was just tweeting it. Jim Dolan just came in. Pat Riley is waiting outside the elevator. I remember the Clippers got there, the heat ran really late, and there was no place for the Clippers to wait. And Neal O'Shea and Andy Roser.
- [129:12]
Bill Simmons
Oh, God.
- [129:13]
Brian Windhorst
Just were standing there in the hallway and just walking back and forth, waiting for Pat Riley and Eric Spoelstra and Mickey Harrison to finish. And I was just live tweeting it. I was just live tweeting it. Like, I was like, well, Mikhail Prokroft just left, but Jay Z is staying back. He must be having a special meeting with LeBron. I was just tweeting what I saw. And nowadays you'd never get that, but I think I had 14,000 Twitter followers at the beginning of that. And three days later, I had 32,000, which blew my mind.
- [129:44]
Bill Simmons
Wow.
- [129:45]
Brian Windhorst
But that was an actual event where I was just. It wasn't like Mickey Ariston was saying, yep, we got it done. I was just tweeting. When I was sitting there watching, I was just standing in the elevator lobby. I was sitting in the elevator lobby lobby watching.
- [129:58]
Bill Simmons
And then every time you think we're post Twitter, then something like the Luca thing happens. Yeah. And then it's. There you go. When did you find out?
- [130:08]
Brian Windhorst
Did you find out Shams tweeted, I had no idea it was coming. I did not know. Most of the time, you know, when stuff's coming, like we do. Like, you know, you can't always. Sometimes, you know something's going to happen and you're just waiting. You know, in our case, it's almost always Shams. Shams knows it. He's got the story written, he's got the tweet in the drafts, and he's waiting. That happened this week with Mike Budenholzer.
- [130:33]
Bill Simmons
I'm sure there was a David Griffin typed out tweet there, too.
- [130:37]
Brian Windhorst
I don't know.
- [130:37]
Bill Simmons
That's.
- [130:38]
Brian Windhorst
Sure.
- [130:38]
Bill Simmons
No, I'm just saying, without pulling the.
- [130:40]
Brian Windhorst
Curtain back too much, Shams had the Mike Budenholzer story written before he was actually fired because Shams is on top of it.
- [130:47]
Bill Simmons
I mean, he could have written in February.
- [130:48]
Brian Windhorst
Well, that's a different. That was a different thing. But the Luca thing came out of absolutely nowhere.
- [130:55]
Bill Simmons
So what is your honest take for how many people knew before the trade came out?
- [131:01]
Brian Windhorst
I know you and I are on different sides of this. I think it was a small number. It's bigger than the purported number, like, whatever they said, but I think it was a small number.
- [131:11]
Bill Simmons
I think it was bigger.
- [131:13]
Brian Windhorst
I know you do.
- [131:14]
Bill Simmons
And I think about an hour and a half before when Utah found out who was in the trade, then it's out. And I think it's out at that point. And I'm actually. And my theory was that even if they were telling other people they thought Luca was about to get traded, who would have ever believed that in a million years? It was like, you might as well have said, a UFO just landed on my roof. Right. There's no way to even conceivably think that was possible.
- [131:42]
Brian Windhorst
So the only thing is, the only thing I'll say is I wondered if Anthony Davis was wearing thin in LA because he had done that interview where he's like, get me a center. I don't want to.
- [131:54]
Bill Simmons
He 100% was okay.
- [131:56]
Brian Windhorst
So when I saw that, like a lot of people, I actually listened. There were two Lakers podcasts that I listened to afterwards.
- [132:02]
Bill Simmons
Oh, look at you.
- [132:03]
Brian Windhorst
Where they. People. Because the Lakers had had a game that night, I think, in New York.
- [132:07]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, LeBron was awesome in the game, which I thought, looking back, is also really interesting. He was very energized in the two games leading up to.
- [132:15]
Brian Windhorst
I don't want to give this away because it's not my story to tell, so I'll just tell half of it. One of my espn. So the Lakers were in New York, and one of my ESPN colleagues ran into JJ Redick in New York that day and they knew JJ and obviously, hey, jj, what's up? He's like, hey, I. I gotta go. I gotta go on a walk. I gotta, I gotta clear. I. I gotta clear my head about something. And like, he like, excused himself and kept going. And so JJ knew and like went out for like a walk.
- [132:48]
Bill Simmons
That's one of the.
- [132:49]
Brian Windhorst
But, you know, the person obviously didn't know, you know, but jj.
- [132:53]
Bill Simmons
If people think JJ and Jason Kidd didn't know a couple days before that trade, there's. I just. There's no way.
- [133:01]
Brian Windhorst
I don't know whether it was days or hours. Yes, the coaches knew before Shams tweeted it. Yes, of course.
- [133:06]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. But like, you read, people honestly think, like, LeBron and Rich didn't know that that trade was coming and that Davis was just like, yeah, I've just waived by no trade. I just found out about this trade a minute ago. Get the fuck out of here.
- [133:17]
Brian Windhorst
You've been talking about the trade kicker. Yes. That is. That is suspicious.
- [133:21]
Bill Simmons
Suspicious.
- [133:23]
Brian Windhorst
Like, I don't, I don't.
- [133:24]
Bill Simmons
He loved being in la. He loved being the Lakers and the whole thing, and he's just, all right, fine, cool. I'm gonna, you know, not only am.
- [133:31]
Brian Windhorst
I okay with the traderman exactly. For knowing in advance as you're. Because, like, according to Polinka, they negotiated.
- [133:37]
Bill Simmons
For a month, I think. I think they knew. I would say I don't know for sure, but I'm excited for when it all finally comes out. And I'm sure there's going to be a now, as Brian Curtis would say. And now they tell us. Yeah, I can't wait for the now they tell us because I think the circle is wider.
- [133:55]
Brian Windhorst
I think Rich and LeBron knew, but it wasn't too far early for, like, I believe them.
- [133:59]
Bill Simmons
Well, Rich definitely knew because he had to. You know, the trade couldn't have happened if AD didn't waive the trade kicker. It would have been way more complicated.
- [134:08]
Brian Windhorst
The trade could have happened. But I agree, that's a flaw in my thinking. I agree. And I asked Rich about that.
- [134:15]
Bill Simmons
That's the red herring of this whole thing.
- [134:17]
Brian Windhorst
I asked him.
- [134:17]
Bill Simmons
And also, do you think they really would have traded LeBron's guy, Anthony Davis to another team and just not tell LeBron what you are saying? Really? They're not doing that.
- [134:29]
Brian Windhorst
What you are saying makes sense, but they were focused on keeping this quiet.
- [134:34]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I Think they did keep it quiet, but at some point.
- [134:36]
Brian Windhorst
But again, what is your standard? That they knew one hour early or that they knew three days early? Because I think they knew maybe one hour early. Is that advanced?
- [134:46]
Bill Simmons
If I had to bet on a scenario, I would bet that probably two, three, four days earlier.
- [134:53]
Brian Windhorst
I don't believe that. I know.
- [134:54]
Bill Simmons
No, that the trade wasn't done.
- [134:56]
Brian Windhorst
Okay.
- [134:57]
Bill Simmons
But I think it probably got to the point where they were like, I got to bring you in on this. I think that happened. Have a chance to do this, and that's when you expand it to the coaches. I just. I know how the league works, and so do you. You don't just hide shit from your best players. Nobody does that.
- [135:14]
Brian Windhorst
I think that's the thing.
- [135:15]
Bill Simmons
And that's why the Durant thing was so crazy, that they were shopping him around and not talking to him and Rich Kleiman about it.
- [135:21]
Brian Windhorst
That is what they were trying to do. It. The reason that got out, I'll tell you.
- [135:26]
Bill Simmons
I mean, like, who's the other teams?
- [135:27]
Brian Windhorst
Well, that's the thing. The Suns can't execute. They're so hamstrung with their thing, they can't execute. There was a. I won't go into. There was a third team involved, and the third team was negotiating with the Warriors.
- [135:41]
Bill Simmons
It's been reported, right? Was it in Miami?
- [135:43]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah. So Miami is negotiating with the warriors on Jimmy Butler. They're trading proposals, and then all of a sudden, the warriors change a proposal, and the Heat noticed that one of the assets being offered was owned by the Suns. Now, I'm not saying that Miami leaked it, because Miami doesn't leak anything. But the talks with other teams, yeah, that's how it got out.
- [136:08]
Bill Simmons
But that's why it's so hard to do three, four team plus. Every team has the six people in the front office and one person. Who knows how much you could trust that one person out of the six.
- [136:18]
Brian Windhorst
Of course, which is one of the reasons why the Heat are so good, because the Heat speak with one voice, like it's Andy Ellisberg. You deal with the Heat, you deal with Andy Ellisberg, obviously, at some point, especially with this type of trade, maybe Mickey Arison or Andy. Pat Riley. But when you negotiate with the Heat, you negotiate with one person. You negotiate with other teams. Sometimes it's three or four. But they were trying to keep it quiet, because when you don't keep it quiet is when things fall apart. And that's what happened there. I think they kept it quiet. I really do. And maybe. Well, now they tell us I look like a fool. But in this case, I don't think.
- [136:50]
Bill Simmons
You look like a fool, because I think they've all stuck to their story. But I just. I think Kid knew, and I think Reddick knew, and I think they knew.
- [136:56]
Rob Mahoney
For a while.
- [136:56]
Brian Windhorst
I was listening to these two Lakers. There were two. Maybe there's even more. The Lakers had a game that night in New York. They won. The Laker fan pods are. Or analysis pods, whatever you want to call them, are recording after the game. They're looking over the Knicks, and I loved it. I listened to them learn it live.
- [137:14]
Bill Simmons
Oh, interesting.
- [137:15]
Brian Windhorst
I mean, I wasn't listening live. I was listening back to it. Somebody sent it to me and said, listen to these guys, because it's hilarious when you have the knowledge and you're listening to them and you can watch them. They're like, well, oh, Shyam's got hacked. You know?
- [137:31]
Bill Simmons
Right?
- [137:32]
Brian Windhorst
And they're like, that kind of be crazy, wouldn't it? Like, all right. In that third quarter tonight, they did a real good job in the pick and roll. ESPN just tweeted it. Like, it's almost like a movie. And they're like, oh, my God. Like, it's. You know. And I love that. It was, like, one of my favorite. Like, I used. I love it when you see. I remember when this became a thing on SportsCenter, when they. When. Like last decade, when people would videotape themselves watching the end of sporting events. Like, I remember the.
- [138:02]
Bill Simmons
That started, like, the World cup was a big one for that one of the World Cups.
- [138:05]
Brian Windhorst
The one I remember was. Do you remember the. The Alabama. Auburn game where they returned the field goal. Yeah, the short field goal was too short, and he returned at 108 yards. One of the great things I ever saw in SportsCenter was the Auburn and Alabama fans. The Alabama fans thinking they're about to win it and they're horrified, and the Auburn fans thinking they're about to lose it, and there was, like, all this stuff. And then like. Like seeing, like, the CAVS fans in 2016 watching the end of. A lot of people videotape themselves watching the end of game seven. Amazing. I just. I have great memories of that. This was what that was like. You could watch it. So anyway, the shock of it was one of the reasons why it was such an amazing story.
- [138:43]
Bill Simmons
Well, and it was a shock that everybody could feel whether you covered the league, talked about the league, wrote about the league, liked the league, were dating or married to somebody who was involved in basketball. Everyone had the same sort of. You remember where you were when it happened. It's such a rare thing for sports. Like, even the decision. I don't remember where I was when that happened. Because you knew it was coming. You know, I remember watching it. I don't remember where I watched it. This. I was watching a movie with my wife.
- [139:10]
Brian Windhorst
And the reason I believed it in the real time, because I didn't know was coming.
- [139:16]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [139:16]
Brian Windhorst
Was that I thought I was in the back of my head. I was like, I wonder if AD is greasing the skids on, you know, on his time in la. It was not something I thought was going to happen at this point.
- [139:26]
Bill Simmons
I don't think that thing went over well when he was complaining about stuff. It's tough to complain when you're either guy. When they gave up like 10 assets to put the two together, that's where I started having issues.
- [139:40]
Brian Windhorst
I think the issue might have been that he was talking to Shams about it and not talking to Polinka and Jeannie about it. I think that's where the issue may have been. Like, what he was asking for was not unreasonable. The venue which he asked for it, I think may have caused. But I don't think that they were like, let's get rid of A.D. i think that.
- [139:58]
Bill Simmons
Now, look, this is a once in a lifetime situation. And as Roussilla and I talked about on Sunday, to do that without Reeves is the craziest part of the whole thing.
- [140:07]
Brian Windhorst
Well, to me, like, I just don't.
- [140:08]
Bill Simmons
Understand how Reeves isn't in the deal. I'll never understand that for the rest of my life.
- [140:12]
Brian Windhorst
This is what Bob. So, like, you know, when you were doing Countdown, you would talk with Magic and you have just. I was never there. But you had described these amazing conversations with Magic during the games.
- [140:23]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, yeah.
- [140:24]
Brian Windhorst
You know, I've gotten to do Countdown about a dozen times this year. I've gotten to do it about half of those with Bob Myers. It's. I.
- [140:31]
Bill Simmons
Cause you're hanging out for six hours.
- [140:33]
Brian Windhorst
Yes. And you know, I covered all these Warriors Calves series and just the way Bob and I. The way Bob talks about the league, like, I'll bet he gets a job offer every day. Like, the way he views the league, like. And the part of it is because he's so successful and comfortable and he doesn't have to worry about, like, you know, part of it is the space he's in. Listening to Bob talk about the league privately, you can see why every owner would want to hire him. Because the way. And what he does on TV I think is great. I don't think actually he gets. Of course I'm biased. He's my teammate. The way he. The way he talks about the league. Like the way he talked last week about. I can't remember. It was some front. Oh, some front office challenge. Like, oh, it was a Michael Malone firing. Like, he talked about that whole thing. Like, what he was saying was like literally worth hundreds of thousands of dollars in consulting money. Like if he had consulted with the team. But anyway, he feels the same way I do. I feel good that I'm on the same side as him, which is he can get to a spot where he sees why they traded Luka. He doesn't agree with it and nor do I, but he can see why. He can see how the Mavericks got to it. They didn't want to pay him the 300 million. Whatever. They have more information about Luka than anybody. He can even get himself to the spot where they said, we want Anthony Davis, that's going to be our guy. And so can I. I can get to a spot. Again, I wouldn't do it, but I can even. I can see how I can.
- [142:06]
Bill Simmons
If I put him as the centerpiece of a Luca trade, I can see.
- [142:09]
Brian Windhorst
How Anthony Davis is a guy they wanted. Like, this is what we're going to do. And even those two steps are big steps. A lot of people, and I think about every Dallas fan couldn't make the two steps that I just made. But I've been around the league. I can see it. The return is what I can't. I can't square. That's where I. That's where I stop. I stop right there. Because here's the thing. Reaves makes. Reaves has one of the best value contracts in the league.
- [142:35]
Bill Simmons
And he's gotten better every year.
- [142:37]
Brian Windhorst
I just voted for him for most improved. I had a real problem for my first.
- [142:40]
Bill Simmons
I came so close.
- [142:41]
Brian Windhorst
I had a look. The most improved.
- [142:43]
Bill Simmons
What'd you do for your three?
- [142:45]
Brian Windhorst
Reeves.
- [142:47]
Bill Simmons
Reeves won.
- [142:48]
Brian Windhorst
Reeves won.
- [142:49]
Bill Simmons
Oh, man.
- [142:50]
Brian Windhorst
Zubot. I think I had Zubac. No, I had Denny Avia.
- [142:55]
Bill Simmons
I looked at him, but his numbers were basically the same house left him last year in Washington. He was a great guy.
- [143:01]
Brian Windhorst
One of the reasons why Joe Cronin got extended in Portland was because of that was how good of a trade that was.
- [143:06]
Bill Simmons
I did Daniels. I mean, I thought Daniels was a no brainer.
- [143:09]
Brian Windhorst
Totally. I'm a big. He plays Daniels internationally.
- [143:12]
Bill Simmons
You know, I like, I did Brown on Denver and I Totally acceptable. And I did Kamara, who I couldn't believe wasn't in the discussion for any of this stuff. Like, I put Kamara.
- [143:23]
Brian Windhorst
I put Kamara in my. All defensive team. Yeah, all of those are good. I'm not going to try to. It's a. It's a bleep show.
- [143:29]
Bill Simmons
No, I looked at the Reeves thing. I. He was. I had four guys I liked and the only thing with Reeves was I liked him last year. I didn't like. How much did he improve. He was really good last year.
- [143:38]
Brian Windhorst
Look again, I fell in love with him in the summer of 23. He was already a. No, it's not like.
- [143:46]
Bill Simmons
Why didn't you tell San Antonio? He saved all of us a lot of issues here.
- [143:51]
Brian Windhorst
So I was. Because Steve Kerr is such a wonderful guy. Steve Kerr let the media. For that summer in 23, we were sort of embedded with the team. Me and Joe Varden of the Athletic. We were the only people really traveling with them. We went on the team bus when they went to the Grand Mosque. We flew on the team plane. Tim Reynolds from the AP was also there, the three of us. And I was riding the bus with the players, I think to the airport or somewhere. And the players were questioning Austin about the contract.
- [144:28]
Bill Simmons
He'd already signed it, right?
- [144:29]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, yeah. You know, and he's like, you know, he's like. He's like. Well, you know, I mean, this is all off the record. I shouldn't say what he said, but they were.
- [144:36]
Bill Simmons
No, I know this story because he was an undrafted free agent.
- [144:38]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah. Well, he wanted.
- [144:39]
Bill Simmons
Nobody really came after him.
- [144:40]
Brian Windhorst
And the spurs really seriously looked at it. The Lakers were given a gift. When the spurs didn't offer him the offer sheet, they were given a gift and they were able to get him on a deal. Now what Austin got was he got a player option after year three because the Lakers were not incentivized to give that to him. There was no.
- [144:58]
Bill Simmons
They knew that. There was no. The Spurs. What I heard, the spurs just kind of farted around with it for a few days and he started to panic that he wasn't going to get any offer. And I think the Lakers strong armed him and he. Palinka, being a former agent, I think in situations like that really helps him.
- [145:15]
Brian Windhorst
I will say that he got the player option so after next year he can opt out. And if he didn't get that and he was under this contract for two more years, so like it was a victory for him and his agent that, you know, because when you're a restricted free agent, you're screwed.
- [145:29]
Bill Simmons
You usually don't get the po so.
- [145:31]
Brian Windhorst
He got the player option without a good if he got an offer sheet, but he didn't get an offer sheet.
- [145:34]
Bill Simmons
Now he's in the best situation and.
- [145:36]
Brian Windhorst
He guaranteed himself tens of millions of dollars. Yeah. And so his set for life, his family is taken care of and he's got a player option after year three. He did okay, but the players on the team were like talking to him about him. Like, yeah, man, because he was, he was great for Team usa. I realized nobody watched it. I understand that. And defensively, he was taken advantage of late in the rounds. The teams targeted him, but at least.
- [145:59]
Bill Simmons
He gives a shit. He. There's guys who get taken advantage of, but at least they fight and he'll at least fight. You know, we're going to see it in the playoffs. Everybody's going to target him for three rounds.
- [146:09]
Brian Windhorst
There's no way you were part of Team usa. I actually almost didn't vote for him for most improved because in my mind he had already improved.
- [146:16]
Bill Simmons
That's why I didn't vote for Katie. Well, because I said Cade was the number one pick. He's year three. He's supposed to be this good.
- [146:22]
Brian Windhorst
You can't give a guy on a max contract most improved, no offense to Cade, was on my all NBA team. But so. Yes. So the interesting. If Austin reeves was making $37 million, okay.
- [146:38]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [146:39]
Brian Windhorst
The Mavericks could look at you and say, well look, we can't have Kyrie and AD and Austin Reaves all making $40 million because we can't do that. If that was the case, I would get it like, okay, you can't do the trade. He's making like $14 million and next year he's making like $15 million. Like it's one of the top five value contract. Well, top 10 value contracts in the league. That's why it's insane.
- [147:04]
Bill Simmons
And he's one of the best 45 guys in the league right now. That's 45, 50, wherever you want to put him.
- [147:09]
Brian Windhorst
So at least if it's a two.
- [147:10]
Bill Simmons
For one, you can talk yourself into it.
- [147:12]
Brian Windhorst
Yes. So that's my, like, in my mind, they should have gotten Reaves and the other first round pick and the pick swap, they should have gotten all of it. And I know what, what's been said, what's been said is that when Jeannie Buss heard about this, she said we're not trading. And I'm sure Rob Plinker didn't Want to trade him either. I'm not saying Rob wanted eventually, but.
- [147:32]
Bill Simmons
We'Re going to lose Luca unless we don't do this. They're trading.
- [147:34]
Brian Windhorst
The excuse that comes out is that, no, Jeannie Buss said Austin Reeves is not being traded. And I'm like, okay, then hang up. Then hang up the phone like you. We're trading you, Luka Doncic. You give us what we want. Like, yeah, like you.
- [147:49]
Bill Simmons
Fine, I'll shop him.
- [147:50]
Brian Windhorst
Right? Like, so I.
- [147:51]
Bill Simmons
Let me see what I can get for him then.
- [147:53]
Brian Windhorst
So I just. I disagree with the trade because as critical as I've been of Luka, I recognize he's a top 10 player, top five player, top three, whatever you want to say. Like, you dream of having a player like that. He's an imperfect player. But I can close my eyes and I can see him holding the Larry O'Brien Trophy in one hand and holding the Bill Russell trophy in the other. I see it. I can see it multiple times. I would not trade a player like that.
- [148:17]
Bill Simmons
Sounds like a nightmare.
- [148:18]
Brian Windhorst
At least not age 25, wearing a laker uniform.
- [148:21]
Bill Simmons
Sounds terrible.
- [148:22]
Brian Windhorst
You should feel that way. And so I'm saying we were almost.
- [148:25]
Bill Simmons
Done with this Lakers team. I mean, they were. This was it. They were last legs.
- [148:31]
Brian Windhorst
One of the great lines, you remember when they had the press conference and Pelinka was wearing that leather jacket at the press conference?
- [148:40]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [148:41]
Brian Windhorst
I was texting with a high ranking executive from their team. He was watching at the same time, I go, hey, what do you think of this Polinka jacket? Because it was not normal press conference wear.
- [148:51]
Bill Simmons
No, he looked like a John Wick villain or something.
- [148:54]
Brian Windhorst
And he goes, after that trade, he could wear a Speedo. And it was just like, right? It was like, yeah, like, unbelievable.
- [149:04]
Bill Simmons
Well, I think it was the. Honestly, the greatest thing that ever could happen on Luka Doncic. Like, we talk about. Well, because not only do you go to a bigger market, you're gonna be a bigger star in a team that has, you know, big resources. You get to play on a team that has a chance to win the title right now. But also, like, they lit a fire under them. And sometimes people need that in life.
- [149:24]
Brian Windhorst
Well, that's what I think. His. I mean, his agent, Bill Duffy, is one of the great agents of the last 40 years. He's a Hall of Famer. I don't know if he's actually in the Hall. I don't know if they put agents in the Hall.
- [149:35]
Bill Simmons
He was more RIP shit than anybody.
- [149:38]
Brian Windhorst
But what I think with Bill Duffy, basically, you know, I shouldn't maybe share everything, but Bill's thing was they traded you the Lakers. So, like, you know, Luca is abs, as you can see from the tears, devastating. Like, they traded you to the Lakers.
- [149:52]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [149:52]
Brian Windhorst
So let's take a step back and evaluate, you know, that you were traded to the Lakers. And I think Luka is coming around on that. We'll find out this summer because he's got to sign the extension.
- [150:05]
Bill Simmons
We'll find out in the playoffs how he does and how everything fits in. And we're going to find out how the LeBron, Luka together, you know, which I think. I think LeBron's handled great so far. Is it going to be a little different in a game four, when you're down two, one in a series, and who gets the ball? I'm. I can't wait for all that stuff.
- [150:21]
Brian Windhorst
But isn't this. Isn't this, like, great for LeBron?
- [150:24]
Bill Simmons
It's great for the league. It's great for us. It's great for LeBron. And LeBron's never been in a situation where he clearly wasn't the most talented guy in his own team. Now he's age 40. If this was 2012, LeBron, it would be a little different. But the only time I can remember even close was that first Miami season, which you covered because Wade was incredible that year.
- [150:45]
Brian Windhorst
LeBron was in his headspace, was in a completely different.
- [150:47]
Bill Simmons
And LeBron was. Yeah, LeBron was a mess for a variety of reasons, and Wade was awesome. That was probably the last great Wade season.
- [150:54]
Brian Windhorst
Dwyane Wade was so great in that 2011 finals.
- [150:57]
Bill Simmons
One of the best. That was that game three. He was the game they won.
- [151:02]
Brian Windhorst
They won game three to go to one.
- [151:04]
Bill Simmons
He was awesome in that game. He was. I feel like he's weirdly become underrated now because his prime wasn't kind of as long as it should have been.
- [151:13]
Brian Windhorst
I've said this, and it's kind of laughable, but. But league pass wasn't as much of a thing. We couldn't watch it on our phones. But in 2010, when I moved to Miami, obviously Dwyane Wade was already on his way to being a Hall of Famer. He had already been a Finals MVP, but until I watched him play 82 games or whatever, he played 75 games night in and night out, covering the Heat. I didn't appreciate how freaking good he was. Like, 25 games into that season, as you know, the Heat, that was very dramatic. I remember thinking, my God, is he good? And I know that's kind of weird to say, but like, I had such an appreciation for how good he was.
- [151:52]
Bill Simmons
Well, I felt like in, I remember writing this in 09 when he was stuck on pretty bad Miami team and he kind of carried them, got them in the playoffs, but I just felt like he was as good as Kobe for a couple years there. And I don't think people, you know, I have Kobe as one of the 10 best players of all time. Like, I wouldn't say that lightly, but I think Wade's, Wade's best was as good as Kobe's best. And I think you saw it in the 06 finals. Like, if he really wanted to be great, you could really build the right team around him and he could carry somebody to the top of the mountain. Kobe did it way longer. And, you know, I think the, the problem for Wade is he had a six year peak.
- [152:31]
Brian Windhorst
Well, you got hurt.
- [152:32]
Bill Simmons
Got hurt a bunch of times. But his peak was basically from 06 to 11. Kobe had the first peak and then I had the second peak from like 08 to, you know, 2012, where he had like almost a whole second career for sure. And Wade was like, basically by the 2014 finals, wasn't an impact guy anymore.
- [152:52]
Brian Windhorst
That's right. That's one of the reasons why LeBron left. I mean, yeah, there was a number of reasons why he left, but he was looking over at Dwayne and he was like, I don't, you know, I.
- [153:01]
Bill Simmons
Wrote that when it happened that it was always like, he's going back to, to Cleveland. He's got a bit. And I was like, he's, he's dumping this Miami team because he knows, because he's fucking basketball genius. He's like, this is done. I maximized all of my, my assets out of this team. I'm. I'm out.
- [153:18]
Brian Windhorst
One of my most vivid memories of my 22 year career cover in the NBA was the locker room after game 5 of the 2014 finals. The sirs magical crushed him, fought for one. Kawhi was great. The ball's moving. Danny Green doesn't miss for days.
- [153:39]
Bill Simmons
That finals in Miami. Yeah.
- [153:44]
Brian Windhorst
I'm in the locker room in whatever they called this or AT&T center, whatever they called it. And Battier retires, which we weren't surprised about. Yeah, Ray Allen basically retires that one. We were caught off guard.
- [154:01]
Bill Simmons
He was like, he felt like he had like three more years.
- [154:03]
Brian Windhorst
I thought he had one more at least. And he was like, yeah, I think I might be done. And we were like, Whoa. Bosh is, like, genuinely relieved. Like, not upset. Like. Like, almost like I've unburdened myself. Haslam. First off, half the team, like, half the team is about to retire. Like, they don't all know it. Like, Rashad Lewis doesn't know he's done, but he's done. A year later, half the team wasn't in the league, and I'll never forget that. It was like they were happy it was over. It was such a finality. Like, it was almost like senior year. Like, okay, guys, it was four years.
- [154:43]
Bill Simmons
That were like, six years.
- [154:44]
Brian Windhorst
Exactly. And so when you look like LeBron's looking around that room, you know, half the guys are about to retire. You know, Wade is, like, wheezing, like, they spent the whole year. Tim Grover, who was, you know, Jordan's guy. Tim Grover spent the whole. The whole season in Miami working on Dwyane Wade to get him taped together to get him to the playoffs. Now, he ended up playing a couple more years, obviously, but, like, they spent the whole year just trying to keep him together for the playoffs. LeBron is seeing all that, and he's just like, I thought he maybe would have come back for maybe one more year just to see.
- [155:20]
Bill Simmons
I remember everyone got mad at me because on tv, Cleveland won the lottery. And I think. Which was. I think before the game, it was.
- [155:29]
Brian Windhorst
In Indianapolis, another vivid memory.
- [155:31]
Bill Simmons
And LeBron had a weird first half. And I think I said something at halftime, like, that was a weird LeBron half. It's almost like it broke his brain that Cleveland was getting the first pick. And that's because we were talking about that that whole playoffs, whether he was going to go back there.
- [155:45]
Brian Windhorst
It wasn't a club. It was the Wiggins lottery. It wasn't a lot.
- [155:49]
Bill Simmons
It was a asset to trade. And that was. The Kevin Love stuff had already started.
- [155:54]
Brian Windhorst
So post game, I can close my eyes and see the locker LeBron sits at. It was, you know, I said, what do you think about Cavs win the lottery? He's like, yeah, pretty amazing, huh? There was a little back and forth after that game because they'd won two years in a row and, like, three out of four or something like that because they won the. Kyrie, Kyrie, Anthony Bennett, Andrew Wiggins.
- [156:18]
Bill Simmons
I got mad on tv, and then everyone got mad at me about that. I thought it was outrageous that they won three and four years.
- [156:23]
Brian Windhorst
Of course it's outrageous.
- [156:24]
Bill Simmons
We need rules. How is this.
- [156:26]
Brian Windhorst
Of course it's outrageous.
- [156:27]
Bill Simmons
A thing that's allowed.
- [156:28]
Brian Windhorst
Yes, of course it's outrageous.
- [156:30]
Bill Simmons
They've done a better job with it now. Like, even bub Carrington makes a crazy shot. So Utah's 1 and Washington's 2, but they both have 14% odds, and it's not as impactful as I think it would have been.
- [156:42]
Brian Windhorst
Having said that there were, like, eight teams tanking at the end of this year. Something like that.
- [156:46]
Bill Simmons
Well, the schedule's too long. It just is. This is what happens when you're playing for fucking ever. And, you know, you get to mid March and eight teams just want the season to be over.
- [156:57]
Brian Windhorst
That's true. That's one.
- [156:59]
Bill Simmons
Were you touched when LeBron took that shot at you and everybody rallied to your defense? It was like. It was a great online moment for you.
- [157:06]
Brian Windhorst
It was.
- [157:07]
Bill Simmons
People are very protective.
- [157:08]
Brian Windhorst
I would have preferred that it didn't happen.
- [157:10]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [157:10]
Brian Windhorst
But I kind of feel like everybody who knows what's going on knew, and everybody who didn't know will forget. So, like, I. I actually felt like my concern was that it would damage me with players because he's so influential with players. That hasn't been the case so far. I've had more players come up, and not that all of them are, but I've had more support from players, current and former, than I thought I would get for that.
- [157:44]
Bill Simmons
It's a weird moment to me. I read that as, like, man, that's just. He said something, and I bet he would take it back a day later.
- [157:51]
Brian Windhorst
In all honesty, I don't know. Cause I haven't talked to him. I actually haven't seen him since McAfee. I'd done McAfee a dozen. I don't know, eight. Seven. Eight times. There's a. McAfee would put up this photo where he superimposed me as one of his high school teammates. He always used that photo. You know, McAfee's show has all these tropes. That is a trope. He's put that photo up a number of times. I don't know what LeBron was thinking, but. But I kind of think when he saw that photo go up, he thought that was weird. Well, maybe he thinks I'm weird. Maybe. Maybe he does. Let's put it this way. There's probably 15 things LeBron could be angry at me about. Like, that I've said or written over the years that he could legitimately be like, that was wrong. That was unfair. You don't know what you're talking about. And he could have hit me with any of those. I've been like, you're right. Shouldn't have done that. I was out of line. But what he accused me of was not one of them, so. But I kind of. I almost kind of think he saw the photo and thought that was weird and that's what he was reacting to, as if I made the photo or something.
- [158:57]
Bill Simmons
Every year you go viral and America's behind you. I don't know.
- [159:01]
Brian Windhorst
This is me on that. I don't know about that.
- [159:04]
Bill Simmons
You don't think so?
- [159:04]
Brian Windhorst
I think people in media who knew were behind me. I don't know about America.
- [159:09]
Bill Simmons
I don't think it was bad for you.
- [159:11]
Brian Windhorst
No, it was fine. Like I said. And I'm not just saying this like, he doesn't owe me anything, so it's fine. I don't know.
- [159:20]
Bill Simmons
It was a great relationship for all sides.
- [159:22]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, well, I don't know how he feels about it, but it was a great relationship for me.
- [159:26]
Bill Simmons
I do think we are entering in this and we've hit all of these different kind of checkpoints with basketball coverage and this whatever era we're in now where fan bases can be mobilized. If somebody writes or says something that a player doesn't like, that that's a little hairy.
- [159:43]
Brian Windhorst
Well, I think it's okay for media to be held accountable.
- [159:48]
Bill Simmons
I couldn't agree more. We're supposed to be fair and accurate.
- [159:51]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, that's fine. But, you know, like, I don't think there's an understanding of the job. You know, there's not. That's one thing that's kind of lost.
- [160:05]
Bill Simmons
It's like, even you look at the award stuff, which. Which Zach just dumped his ballot at. Eventually he couldn't.
- [160:11]
Brian Windhorst
I was really annoyed about it.
- [160:12]
Bill Simmons
Couldn't handle the swings.
- [160:13]
Brian Windhorst
But I told him that I was annoyed about it, and I am annoyed about it, and he should get it back.
- [160:17]
Bill Simmons
But, like, you know, Yokage or sga, It's a good battle. We talk to different people. They're going to say different things. Nobody is going to do an MVP vote. Like, finally, I get to do my anti OKC agenda.
- [160:31]
Brian Windhorst
Right.
- [160:33]
Bill Simmons
So I'm so glad.
- [160:34]
Brian Windhorst
Right.
- [160:34]
Bill Simmons
Like, I voted for Dort for defensive player of the year, for coach of the Year.
- [160:39]
Brian Windhorst
I wish I had had the. The guts to vote for Dort. I said I was. I was seriously thinking about I just didn't have the guts. But it's like when they say, like.
- [160:48]
Bill Simmons
A golfer makes like an 18 footer at a guster, they're like, the guts. The guts to read that play.
- [160:55]
Brian Windhorst
Here's the thing about a media voting for awards Were the best bad of all the bad options. Were the best bad option. So, like, this is not speculation. They let the fans into the All Star voting, and the fans are, like, trying to vote Zaza Pachoua. And like, you know, with all Due respect to LaMelo Ball, he's a great player, but he had no business being a starter in the All Star Game this year.
- [161:20]
Bill Simmons
He did not.
- [161:21]
Brian Windhorst
Fans put him in. So the players and the media had to check on that. The players, first off, they vote for All Star, and half of them don't take it seriously. You can see the votes and, like, Bub Carrington's getting votes. All due respect to Bub, the players awards, you remember, that lasted for like two or three years. That was a disaster.
- [161:40]
Bill Simmons
Who could have predicted? I mean, it was a disaster. When they did in the 60s and they had people voting for MVP, some of the votes were with Bill Russell being like, fifth, of course.
- [161:50]
Brian Windhorst
One of the most amazing awards every year is the Executive of the Year.
- [161:55]
Bill Simmons
Award voted by other executives.
- [161:57]
Brian Windhorst
The other executives vote for it. It's like the pettiest award. Like, there's so bias and pettiness and like. Like, if you go back and historically look at some of these vote totals, you can't trust that. That's only.
- [162:12]
Bill Simmons
The NBA governor's meeting is more petty than the.
- [162:15]
Brian Windhorst
Can you imagine? So the players don't trust the owners. The owners don't trust the players. The players can't be trusted to pick the other players. The fans can't be trusted at all. So is the media perfect? Hell, no. But we're the best of the options.
- [162:28]
Bill Simmons
Well, and also, you can't fuck around with your ballot. You can't be like, I'm going to put Bronny James third for rookie of the year, because then it's going to be shown that you did that.
- [162:38]
Brian Windhorst
I know, and my colleagues don't like that. Their votes are public.
- [162:43]
Bill Simmons
So I don't care if my vote's public. I watch basketball year. I really care about the process. I've talked about it forever, and I'm going to do my ballot the way I want to do it. I have a whole process and I care.
- [162:55]
Brian Windhorst
Okay? And so hold us accountable.
- [162:56]
Bill Simmons
People disagree with it, that's fine. But I do wonder, though, if they should make it private and if they don't like certain ballots, just knock those people out for the next year.
- [163:08]
Brian Windhorst
Well, that is something that could happen. Hold us accountable.
- [163:11]
Bill Simmons
Because what I don't. Here's why I say that I worry about the group. Think for stuff. Because people are afraid, oh, if I do this and not enough people are with me, then people are gonna say whatever. Right? And then if you're just like, ah, it's just safer for me to do this. Cause I don't want to be noticed, that's not. Then we're not voting anymore. And I do think people do that.
- [163:32]
Brian Windhorst
Yes, I definitely think that happens. And I think especially with the teams that you have to cover, you know, like, if you are right, you have.
- [163:40]
Bill Simmons
Jaren Jackson, you leave him off third two mile NBA. And then you run into them and.
- [163:43]
Brian Windhorst
It'S like, hey, dude, this is one thing that I do. And I did that this year. Evan Mobley and Jaren Jackson were. Are both guys who, if they may call NBA, get the bonus. Mobley is already in his contract. Jackson is eligible for the supermax. Doesn't have it, but he's eligible. So I have a rule that if you're close, I put you on. I did this with Jaylen Brown two years ago. Jaylen Brown had earned it. He was. He was on. He was second.
- [164:07]
Bill Simmons
Jalen Brown should have been on.
- [164:08]
Brian Windhorst
He earned it. That's a bad example.
- [164:10]
Bill Simmons
Well, but Jaren Jackson's an interesting one because, like, I didn't have.
- [164:13]
Brian Windhorst
I put him on.
- [164:13]
Bill Simmons
I put Zubats over him.
- [164:15]
Brian Windhorst
And I'm not gonna argue that with you. I'm just saying, like, I have this rule that if it's close, I give it to him.
- [164:19]
Bill Simmons
I can't argue with it.
- [164:20]
Brian Windhorst
And Evan Molby was on it too.
- [164:22]
Bill Simmons
Speaking of arguing, we went way too long and we have to watch him play in basketball game. I know we now missed the first quarter, but I had a great time. It was good catching up with you.
- [164:28]
Brian Windhorst
I always love talking with you.
- [164:29]
Bill Simmons
Thanks for popping up.
- [164:30]
Brian Windhorst
Can I just say real quick, I don't know if it's still available on the web anywhere. You and I, when you did your book of Basketball two, what did you call it when you did.
- [164:43]
Bill Simmons
Oh, the podcast.
- [164:44]
Brian Windhorst
The podcast, yeah.
- [164:44]
Bill Simmons
It's on YouTube.
- [164:45]
Brian Windhorst
It's on YouTube.
- [164:46]
Bill Simmons
We did LeBron's the Shot, right?
- [164:47]
Brian Windhorst
We did the game seven.
- [164:49]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [164:51]
Brian Windhorst
It's the most fun I've ever had doing a podcast.
- [164:55]
Bill Simmons
Oh, that's nice.
- [164:56]
Brian Windhorst
And is probably the best, some of the best content I've ever done.
- [165:03]
Bill Simmons
Wow.
- [165:04]
Brian Windhorst
We did it at the studio at the Ranch.
- [165:06]
Bill Simmons
Pre Covid.
- [165:06]
Brian Windhorst
Pre Covid. I remember, like coming across it like during COVID like in, you know, in the darkest of times and listening to it. So if you are a LeBron fan or a Kyrie fan. Just go find that. I mean, all of you did a whole bunch of them because now it's, you know, half a decade old or longer. But like, I just want to say, oh, I'm glad.
- [165:25]
Bill Simmons
Well, you were great on that one. That was a really fun one to do.
- [165:27]
Brian Windhorst
I love it. So.
- [165:28]
Bill Simmons
Okay, all right.
- [165:28]
Brian Windhorst
Thank you.
- [165:30]
Bill Simmons
All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Windhorse, thanks to Mahoney and cr. Thanks to Jesse and Gahal and Ceruti for helping out behind the scenes. Don't forget you can catch up on Celtic City on Max if you haven't watched it. I'm really proud of it. I hope you like. If you like basketball, I feel like you're going to like it and then enjoy the playoffs this weekend. I'm going to be back with Rosillo on Sunday night after a whole smorgasbord of games. See you then. Must be 21 plus in President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + in President D.C. gambling problem call 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelpline ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text hopeny in New York. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. During the season, every baseball team plays 162 games. It's a true test of endurance. It's not enough to have a hot month or two. You need sustained dominance throughout. Well, the same is true for your small business. It's not enough to have a great Q2 or even a great year. You want year over year growth that starts with better hires that'll be there for the long haul. To find Those hires, use LinkedIn. LinkedIn has strong hiring data and insights that you won't find anywhere else to help pair you with the best candidates, from unique skills and interests to the connections you have in common. Based on LinkedIn data, 72% of small businesses say that LinkedIn helps them find high quality talent. LinkedIn also lets you go beyond people who are actively applying. In a given week, 171 million LinkedIn members aren't actively seeking jobs, but they are open to new opportunities. That's a big pool to miss out on. If you're not hiring with LinkedIn, find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com Simmons that's LinkedIn.com Simmons to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Michelob Ultra A superior light beer and the ultimate trophy. Win or lose, you're bound to enjoy the ride with a good beer in hand. Michelob ultra crisp, refreshing only 95 calories. A superior light beer. No matter the game, sport, or season, Superior is worth playing for. So sign up for ultra courtside@michelobultra.com courtside and you can enjoy some of these games with a nice beer in your hand. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2025 Anheuser Busch. Michelob Ultra registered light beer St. Louis, Missouri must be 21 plus to order. Alcohol. Alcohol available only in select markets.