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- [00:00]
Bill Simmons
This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Cracking open a cold one on a hot summer day is one of the best feelings, but it's even better when it feels like you earned it, like in a friendly little competition. It's always better when there's something worth playing for. And Michelob Ultra, a superior light beer is a pretty great prize. I would, I mean, I would be all tennis for Michelob Ultras, because that's what I do all summer. Because tennis is an actual sport, unlike pickleball. So tennis, doubles, singles, whatever, let's play for an Ultra. Fill your fridge with Michelob Ultra this summer@doordash.com. enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2025 Anheuser Busch. Michelob Ultra Light Beer, St. Louis, Missouri. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by State Farm. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where I have a new rewatchables coming for you on Monday night. It is the last installment of New York City Month. Five movies because we had five Mondays in June, so this will be the fifth one. We did Work and girl, we did Die Hard with a Vengeance. We did Marathon Man. We did out for justice with Steven Seagal. This is going to be after Hours. It is a cult classic directed by Martin Scorsese. It's me and Sean Fantasy. And we dove into not only all the reasons why this is a great New York movie, but why this is such an important Scorsese catalog movie in such an important time of his career. So you can watch that on Monday night as a video podcast or on The Ringer Movies YouTube channel. By the way, you can watch all the stuff on this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. We have an Instagram and a TikTok as well. And. And we're going to talk to Ryan Marcillo in one second because basketball threatening to heat up. I can't say it's red hot right now. It's pretty lukewarm. But there's been a lot of fascinating subplots and things to look for as we head into July. So, Priscilla, coming up next, we're gonna take a break, get into Pearl Jam and then resilo. This episode is presented by State Farm. It's no secret that great teams need great teammates. I've been saying this for years. And when it comes to insurance, State Farm is there to help you find the right coverage for your home, car and more. Whether you need an in person or digital assist, they're ready when life hits you with a full court press. Get a game Plan that helps fit your life. Talk to State Farm today. State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. All right. 5:30pm Pacific Time on a Sunday night, you know, in years past, and we've been doing this Since, I think 2018 range, and there was always something, either a massive event, Marcillo or like something we didn't expect right around like in that 36 hour stretch before July 1st. I don't think the Jabari Smith extension has really qualified for me. I don't know if you feel differently. It's just nothing's really happening yet. And yet there are all these moving pieces right now. And I was just going to throw a bunch of stuff that I'm fascinated by so far since the Finals have ended. I'll start here.
- [03:34]
Ryan Rosillo
Okay.
- [03:35]
Bill Simmons
I really like everything Houston's doing. It's getting a 10 out of a 10 approval rating for me from the Durant trade, which we've already talked about. They signed Jabari Smith today to a five year, $122 million extension. They renegotiated with Van Vliet, got him at 25 years, 25 million for two years each year. And I just like the roster they put together. It makes sense to me. I'm not sure they need to do anything else. And I think they're a real threat in the west now and they have stability and assets. I think they have flexibility to do more stuff in December, January, February if they need to. And I think they're in the mix. I really do. What is your take on the rackets?
- [04:17]
Ryan Rosillo
Love what they've done. I think we've kind of touched on just a bunch of the things even going back to like last year, where they were one of the rare teams that spends a top pick on Jalen Green and then just doesn't give him the full max because he scored a million points. You know, they structured that deal in a way where it was like, we like you, but we're still not sure. And so I think that showed you the rare. I want to get into some of these other deals where it feels like the overriding sentiment the last couple of days has just been teams doing players favors, but they've been really just smart and calculated about it all. Like when the Van Vliet signing happened, you looked at the total numbers, you're like, well, that's nuts. And it's like, what are they going to do with that player option? Well, or, excuse me, the team option. So they declined the teen option because it didn't really make a ton of sense. If Van Vliet was going to make 45 million for one year, they do the new deal, two years, 25 million. So that's a win for them. Probably a little more stable.
- [05:09]
Bill Simmons
Kind of a win for him too. Right. Because they were going to decline the option and now he's out in the open market and not looking at 45 million anyway. 25 million would have been the range.
- [05:19]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. And even then it was going to be tough to find a landing spot as everybody like sits here. Every article you read, it's like, other than Brooklyn, other than Brooklyn, other than, you know, so some of these numbers. But even the jabari deal, it's 5 for 122. But seriously, like he's probably kind of like in a make or break season, but 20 plus million a year for him at this age, knowing that if it doesn't work out, you can trade him. And then I was looking at this is where it can get a little confusing on like if they do this or they do that and you know, they had to get cute with, with some of the restructuring of how they were working their books. But I think they can still use a full non taxpayer mid level if they want to get greedy for 14.1.
- [05:57]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, yeah.
- [05:58]
Ryan Rosillo
So they've positioned themselves really well. They'll probably do the Durant extension, I'd imagine, which is always going to be a little scary. But hell, I was even like thinking, man, if I'm another team and Jayshawn Tate is available, I loved him when he got minutes and then they find a way to keep him. So I'm incredibly impressed. So I don't even know other than what Steven Adams, 3 years, 39 million. Is there anything to really go like, whoa, I mean, yeah, it was like.
- [06:22]
Bill Simmons
If it had been three years 30, I would have been like, Nice deal. 39 was like, Ah, a wee bit rich, but you know, splitting hairs. They're number four on the, on FanDuel's champion odds right now, 9 to 1. OKC is the favorite. Cleveland is 6 to 1, Knicks are 9 to 1 and the Rockets are 9 to 1. And I think that's, I think that's fair. I. Minnesota is 14 to 1, which I thought Minnesota and Houston would have similar odds. But the betters like Houston a little more than Minnesota. I mean and that's the second story that we have to hit that ties in Houston and also ties into the big picture of all of this. They keep Nas Reed, which I thought was impossible in February, and I didn't realize what was going to happen with the market. They kept Nas Reed. That contract next year starts at $21 million. He's a $30 million player. Like in. In normal times, like, basically what this new CBA has done is like when you buy a car, there's like this new car tax that you're basically paying where the moment you take the car off the lot, the number of that car decreases by 25%. Right. You're just basically paying because you want a new car. And NBA free agency has had this forever where it's like, well, Nasree's not worth 160 million for five years. He's worth probably 120. But now you gotta pay the extra 40 million to get Nasrid. It feels like this new CBA has eliminated the new car tax. And Randall is 100 million for three years. It's not 125 for three years. The last deal that we have that I think teams are a team would regret is that Brandon Ingram deal where Toronto trades for him and then gives him. What was it, 120 for three years. It's just out of whack. He's not. I don't think he. I think he should be in that Randall range of 3 for 100. So we've seen a resetting and we've seen the smarter teams kind of lock down these contracts. And I think it's going to be a free for all with these free agents where that we're just a bunch of guys who were like, wait, I thought I was worth this. And it's like, no, you actually aren't. You're actually. The numbers have moved down here and that's just the reality of it.
- [08:26]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, Minnesota's a big part of this because you had to figure with the cat trade because how big those numbers get at the back end. And then Rudy did an extension which was less annually than what he was building towards. It's like, okay, they're probably trying to figure out a way to, like, lock in this number. That doesn't prevent, you know, total flexibility here. But.
- [08:49]
Bill Simmons
But did. But did you think they would be able to keep Randall and Nas? Because I would have thought that would be impossible in February.
- [08:56]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, I mean, who's going to pay nas more than 25, 30 million a year?
- [09:02]
Bill Simmons
Nobody. Nobody has the space. Yeah, that's the thing. Like you. I just. Maybe I didn't look at it hard enough four months ago, but I just assumed they would be the way the league works, where it's like somebody creates space or there's a sign and trade or there's some suitor. It's like, whoa, Indiana's getting Nas Reed. How did that happen? It seems like that era is over. Nobody can do it.
- [09:23]
Ryan Rosillo
I don't know that we're going to have a year where there's one team with major cap space and then nobody else does. But I, I think there was also teams that were like, you know, where do I park my shit? Where do I park it? Oh, there's, there's nowhere to park it. I mean, think about like Brooklyn. They have their five picks. It's like, what are you going to do? Offer them another first to take on a contract? Sean Marks is like, hey boys, you know, open up the notebooks.
- [09:51]
Bill Simmons
We got six ball handling guards, we'll take them.
- [09:55]
Ryan Rosillo
And even then they took on Terrence Mann's deal, so they're. It's just such a rarity that you really didn't have anybody, especially with the way the Detroit stuff worked out. Like at one point you thought, could Detroit get a $25 million player in there with their cap space? But then Cade gets the bump, so then that kind of eliminates that. So, Nas, when I had heard the first like offering like 4 years for 100, I just assume whatever number I hear you like, tack on a little bit more to it. So when it came out, I wasn't entirely shocked. The Randall one, like, I was really looking at it this morning. So he goes three years for a hundred ops out of the player option 35.8. All right. Now too often I will look at a deal and go, I'd hate to be in the Randall business for $100 million. Or I'd hate to be like, there's too often I say it with too many players where it's like, hey, dude, like I have to check myself and go, well, at some point you have to sign somebody and you can't just let assets just walk for absolutely nothing.
- [10:53]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, the top 60 guy just got a blank and suck it up.
- [10:56]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, right. And so if you think of Randall's, because I think there was still a little sticker shock and that's probably just the recency bias of the last series. And you could say, well, hey, he was really good in the first two rounds. Well, was that potentially the matchups that he was going up against? I don't know. I mean, all that stuff I think is totally fair. But I went back to 2021, where Randall signed a four year deal with the Knicks for 117 million. So it is four years, 117 million. And that's when the salary cap is at 112 million. Well, now the salary cap's north of 150 million. And you're getting Randall for like, you know, depending on how they stagger with 8% raises over the years. It's kind of the same contract. And this is somebody four years ago, you were wondering before he was actually, excuse me, you were thinking back to last August if he was going to do a four year, like $184 million extension. Like that was one of the things that was on the table. Like, what if he puts up this huge. Granted, I don't know what Brunson, he was going to get the same number of touches. But you know, three years for 100 million. Even though I don't love the guy, that kind of puts him in the 70th highest paid player range. That's kind of what he costs.
- [12:06]
Bill Simmons
This is what's changed though, where it's become a little more like movies. The star. Stars are going to get even more money. Like Booker's going to get 75 million a year for two years or three years. Whatever that extension is.
- [12:19]
Ryan Rosillo
That's where whatever Luca wants to wait for.
- [12:22]
Bill Simmons
Luca SGA Tatum already signed. Especially if you have Some sort of NBA, you're looking at 65 million and up. But then there's that class right below. And we're seeing like some of those Toronto contracts that none of neither you or I really liked. And you go back and look at some of those deals now, like what quickly signed for what Ingram signed for. And I just don't think. I think those guys would be 20 to 25 million dollars guys in whatever this new version of the market is.
- [12:49]
Ryan Rosillo
Because we got five years, 162 fully.
- [12:52]
Bill Simmons
Guaranteed, which was my thing with Nas Reed. It's like if, if that's Quickly's price. How is Nas Reid not a $30 million a year guy? But apparently those days are. Those days are over.
- [13:04]
Ryan Rosillo
But I looked up some of this other stuff too. Like Nick Claxton was 4 years 97 million. So like you get sticker shock over Randall and it's like, well, there's way more to Randall than what Nick Claxton is at this point. Tobias Harris, granted it was shorter years, but it was two years 52 million because Detroit was like, well, we've had him in here before. Make some shots. John Collins, I mean, this deal was in 21.
- [13:25]
Bill Simmons
That was one of my favorites.
- [13:27]
Ryan Rosillo
Five years, 125 million fully guaranteed.
- [13:30]
Bill Simmons
Oh, he's making 26 this year. Well, that's why Reeves turned down. What did reeves turn down? 4 for 97. Because he's going to. He's one of those guys that actually can get to the 5. 150.
- [13:42]
Ryan Rosillo
I think everybody knew that was getting turned down. Yeah, even the Lakers were like, we knew he was going to turn it down but we just wanted to make them know that we were interested. But that was like a done deal because it doesn't make any sense for him to do it knowing what's coming or he's potentially eligible for. But yeah, I mean when Collins picked up his player option for 26 and a half million. Do you know how old Collins is by the way? Off the top of your head?
- [14:06]
Bill Simmons
Isn't he still in his 20s?
- [14:08]
Ryan Rosillo
He's 28.
- [14:09]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, he's just, he came in the league pretty early. Yeah. Cause if you look at the, the, the big free agents that are left because everybody basically got locked down and then Harden looked like he did a deal. So Kyrie's three for 119, Harden's two for 81. So for that caliber it seems like $40 million a year. Randle, it seems a little light, but it also seems like he wanted to lock down a little long term security. So that Randall range is like 33 to 35 billion a year. And then that NAS Reid range 5 for 125, that's about 25 a year. And that seems like that's where, that's the hierarchy now. So if you have a guy who's not one of the best three players in your team but is super valuable like Nas Reed, it's in the 20 to 25 range. Jabari Smith, Right, that's another one. I don't know if this is going to last by the way. The cap keeps going up 10% every year. So it might, as we keep going, there's more teams with cap space next year there's going to be a bunch of them. Maybe this will flip, but this was the reality of this year. Davion Mitchell, 2 for 24. Which just seems like a normal free agent contract any other year, but that's probably the price now for a roll guy. 10 million, 12 million, maybe shorter money. So when I look at Finney Smith opting out with the Lakers, which I thought was interesting today and really speaks to how weird the Lakers situation is right now, but I don't know, is he getting more than that? Probably not. Maybe he'll get more years, but he's looking at that 14.1 million free agent exception which half the teams in the league have, and maybe you can add three years to that. It's three for 50, something like that. But in the old days, he might have gotten like 4 for 75. Like some really dopey max Dr. Remember that contract? I think those contracts are done. Max Dr. 4 for 64. That's not happening anymore.
- [16:04]
Ryan Rosillo
It may happen in the way that a team is not worried about the apron, they're not worried about the tax, and they go to. I don't lose the asset for nothing. I mean, I think you're still going to see some of that stuff happen because I think there's another part of this summer. No, no, no, no. I'm talking, like, down the road. Yeah, yeah. I. I just think it's very rare that you have, like, it was two forces fighting each other. One was one team with cap space that doesn't want to do anything with it. And then also not a ton of available free agents. So I think that there are teams that probably could have held a much harder line if they wanted to be.
- [16:38]
Bill Simmons
Like, way harder right now.
- [16:40]
Ryan Rosillo
Okay, but think about the Harden deal. Like, Harden has a player option of 36 and a half million. He signs for 2 for 81.5 million. So he gets a raise of like maybe a couple million for one year. I mean, you could envision a scenario where the Clippers go, hey, if you opt out, you really want to go to free agency, who's signing you? So why don't you just pick up the player option and like, granted, all this stuff is worked out ahead of time, and I'm sure they're very happy with how productive he was. He was all NBA in a way that you didn't really expect. Like, this isn't about the players playoff part of it.
- [17:15]
Bill Simmons
Are they happy?
- [17:17]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, they gave me one and a half million, so they must feel pretty good about it.
- [17:20]
Bill Simmons
If we were at dinner with the Clippers people before they agreed to that contract and wine was going around and it's like 10:30 at night at the table, do you think somebody would have been basically just like, I just gotta say this Game seven, are we sure we want two more years of this? Like, there's no way they didn't have that conversation in the room at some point over the last four weeks. Like, are we sure we want to do this? Let's talk about game seven again, because I think it's so hard to find guys in the top 50 that you just got to suck it up. And you start going glass half full instead of glass half empty. But there had to have been a moment in the last four weeks like Ty Lu, there's no way he didn't crunch that Game seven tape one more time. And just like, my God, he won't fucking look at the rim. Like, we're going to do this for two more years. He won't fucking look at the rim. But they did it because teams are so scared about not having an asset they'd rather have the asset they're not happy with. All right, we'll just get them figured out. But I don't know, they sent him in the open market. What was he going to do? Where was he going?
- [18:29]
Ryan Rosillo
That's my point. There were multiple examples these last couple days where a team could have been like, all right, you want to opt out. Like, you want to raise from us, and you want to throw in another player controlled second year, because the 8111 half, the first year is fully guaranteed. The second year is partially guaranteed, but it is a player option. So we can be right back to this.
- [18:48]
Bill Simmons
But he was never opting out. Worst case scenario, he's opting in and grabbing that, making sure he gets that one thing. So that was always how this was going to play out. And the same thing for Rando, I think Rando was ultimately, he had to opt in. And that's the leverage. The team said. Now, whether this will be the case in three years from now when the cap is way higher. Right. And everybody has recalibrated their books to some degree, I don't know. But I think this is the weirdest summer since 2016 for just looking at either. In 2016, it was the opposite. People had so much cap space, they were like fucking at strip joint at three in the morning. Just Evan Turner, Lou El Dang. Like, that could be like a documentary. Think about that summer. All those guys made more money than most of the free agents are going to make this summer.
- [19:36]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, right. And then the players didn't understand for the most part, what was going on. And then once they realized, they were like, hey, so we were told not softening the cap would be good for us. And you know, the way that story goes, the people were trying to explain it to players leadership and Players association was like, absolutely not. And I can understand it too. It's like, what does that mean? No, we want all of our money and the money that we're just like, the way it works is, this is how it goes. And then all of a sudden, everybody's just flush with cash. And you're right. The Evan Turner contract, when that one happened, I just remember thinking like, well, that's wrong. There's no way Evan Turner got, What was it, 70 million bucks.
- [20:15]
Bill Simmons
I don't even think that was the one I was the most upset about or most stunned about. I think the Noah one was the most shocking one to me because there were real signs that he might be headed toward the downside. It was like nobody had watched the previous season. Speaking of cap space, this is another story. I have my eye on Rosillo, and this has multiple tentacles to it. Detroit now is going to have cap space, it looks like, because everyone thought they're going to resign Malik Beasley, and apparently they had. It was reported that they were thinking about three years, 42 for them, for him. And that was gonna take them out of free agent cap stuff, right? They're probably gonna let Schroeder go. Tim Hardaway Jr. Who knows? But Beasley. So Beasley was gonna be their free agent. Then we get. We wake up this morning and he's in a gambling being investigated. Detroit has backed off of the thing. He's now in some sort of. God only knows what's gonna happen with that. We could talk about that piece later, but now Detroit is gonna have like 17 million. And then if they can trade some contracts or, you know, get somebody to take somebody out, they could probably get to 20, maybe even 25 if somebody took Font Necchio. And all of a sudden they're probably the biggest suitor out of all these dudes. I don't know if there's anybody left, but that could be a Finney Smith spot. I don't know. I think we've talked about in the past, like the east, who knows, Indy, Boston, you know, you. Detroit could have a chance to be like a two or three seed. This is a really big decision for them, who they're going to add. And there's a lot of guys that I like too. So what do they do?
- [21:53]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, I mean, how many guys do you like, how many guys do you like that are playing in their playoff rotation that are worth a multi year investment, knowing that there's other players they're going to have to pay soon.
- [22:02]
Bill Simmons
All right, I'll give you some. I do like Alexander Walker a lot. I don't know if he's a top three guy, but we watched him play in a playoff series. I liked how he played. I still like Ty Jerome. I'm not going to get Thrown off by that weird Indiana series. I watched too many games during the season when he was just incredible. And I know you're an even bigger fan. He was just too impactful off the bench too many times. Finney, Smith, Yavasali. Then it starts getting those. Those are probably the top four for me.
- [22:35]
Ryan Rosillo
That's why I was surprised that you said you like that many people. There's a frog. There's probably a conversation about Jerome allowing Cade to be off the ball a little bit instead of just having him run high, pick and roll like, you know, 90% of the game and providing spacing because Cade clearly, I think this one year proved like he would give this guy a little bit of spacing, which you could potentially lose. The Beasley thing, because, you know, Beasley's another guy. Even prior to all this news, like, I don't know, I don't really want to pay you $14 million a year. And he may have just because he shot us so well this season. So who knows? I mean, teams are always desperate for shooting.
- [23:10]
Bill Simmons
I think I would have done that not knowing it. Yeah, I think I thought he was really good last year. I know the playoffs he was a little up and down, but I really liked how he played last year. I thought he was important to them, that he was feisty. The Ty Jerome on Detroit. I like the feisty factor. I could see him holding back Ron Holland. I could see him convincing Beef Stew not to charge back at the other team. Subtle, but maybe also trying to agitate things too.
- [23:37]
Ryan Rosillo
I could see him, I could see Stu being like, well, now the ties here, we have two dogs, but Jerome can initiate the offense. He can play off of guys. Cade could play off of him a little bit. And I do think they tried to find ways to have Schroeder initiate some stuff to give Cade a break from just being the same every single time. But it's very. It's very clear that you need to have spacing around him. So I think that's more important than them having another big guy. Even if you felt at times, you know, it's asking a lot of Durham to just hold up the entire time against some of the bigger teams if they're going to go a little bit deeper. So, yeah, I just don't think it's really that long of a list of $14.1 million guys for the non taxpayer mid level.
- [24:26]
Bill Simmons
Would you rather have tied Jerome or Malik Beasley? No. Gambling scandal next year for the Pistons.
- [24:31]
Ryan Rosillo
I'm not saying this because of what happened today. I don't really trust Beasley. I think he's the guy that hits shots and then the last two minutes of the game. I don't expect him to go in.
- [24:39]
Bill Simmons
It would have been funnier if you said, I trusted him before today. Now I don't trust him as much. I went on an amazing rabbit hole with him. I was. I was all the way into the 20, 23, 24 season game logs I was looking at.
- [24:55]
Ryan Rosillo
That's the one that's being investigated. I. I actually think it's. That was reported. Look, I mean, this is not a rant about the innocent until proven guilty or the guilty until proven innocent way that it seems to work now where people can just be charged with stuff and then it's just like your entire reputation is tarnished. I just think there's a lot of dudes out there that see a bad play and then they post it and everybody's so excited to be like, yep, look at that. He didn't get back stuff that happened after that.
- [25:22]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, that was rough.
- [25:23]
Ryan Rosillo
Oh, wait, so I thought that's what you said you were watching.
- [25:26]
Bill Simmons
No, I was watching the. I was just. I wasn't watching. I was looking at the game logs and trying to figure out. Because they. It was reported on ESPN that they were studying January 2024.
- [25:38]
Ryan Rosillo
And I'm like, huh, let's lock in here.
- [25:41]
Bill Simmons
Went through. And who knows? But it sucks because first of all, shitty story. I feel bad for him. Cause he played really well last year and you know, it doesn't seem great when the feds get involved. Not awesome. So we'll see what happens with that. But they're going to have cap space to do whatever.
- [26:05]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. And it might, you know, sometimes teams go, let's use it now no matter what. Like, just make sure we use it before we lose this. And then we'll worry about the asset management part of this a little bit later. But you know, the length of the commitment to the guys that are left over. Like, there's only a couple names that I'd feel really comfortable about going like a bunch of years with.
- [26:26]
Bill Simmons
Alexander Walker, I like him, but he's.
- [26:29]
Ryan Rosillo
A bench player on a good team. I mean, he could, he could close with you maybe if he gets hot, you know, it's not the worst thing, but, you know, with the way Detroit is trending right now and hoping between Asar Cade Ivy coming back healthy, Durin Harris, when you're paying him north of 20 million a year, still trying to figure out what you have with Holland.
- [26:57]
Bill Simmons
Kaminga.
- [27:00]
Ryan Rosillo
No, I'd rather pay Alexander Walker than Kaminga.
- [27:05]
Bill Simmons
So you, you agree with me that Ty Jerome would be the move.
- [27:10]
Ryan Rosillo
It makes the most sense. I can, I can already see it.
- [27:12]
Bill Simmons
I really like it now.
- [27:13]
Ryan Rosillo
We also could be like overrating him a little bit, but he was so, like, he was so impactful in so many different games. And I'm sure, like, you know, best case scenario, it's like, does it become a Ty Jerome Thompson debate of what they were doing even against the Knicks? It's like, well, what do we want to do? Do we want to close with defense or do we want to close with. With shooting? Yeah, because to this point, Asar is just not somebody anybody's going to close out on, never mind like a playoff game, even in the regular season. So at least Jerome, I think, brings that respect and probably clean clear up some of the stuff for Cade and what he wants to do.
- [27:45]
Bill Simmons
Driving the free agent, 14.1 million free agent spot teams. I think I have this right. Indiana, Indiana, Atlanta, Philly, Milwaukee, Washington, Charlotte, Chicago, Sacramento, New Orleans, Utah, okc, Houston, Portland, San Antonio and Golden State. If Kaminga goes, it's more than half the league. And then you have Brooklyn and Memphis have that 8.8. A couple other teams do. I don't know how many people get the 14.1. What would you do over under on FanDuel? How many guys get the 14.1? Would you say more than five from the list you've seen? I mean, it's a list too.
- [28:27]
Ryan Rosillo
No, it does feel like it's a low number, but, you know, it's. How many teams think that they're in it? Our teams in the west going like, hey, let's go to ownership and be like, hey, what do you think we're going to do? We're going to win 48 games and be like, okay, now let's use our $14.1 million tax.
- [28:46]
Bill Simmons
So Houston was the one. Like, I don't even know if they need Finney Smith.
- [28:53]
Ryan Rosillo
But Houston's the one.
- [28:54]
Bill Simmons
Where you think about it, right?
- [28:56]
Ryan Rosillo
Like, let's go for it here, right?
- [28:58]
Bill Simmons
It's like if you have Finney Smith with Tari, with Amen, and it's like just. I don't know that that did, but that was floating around a little bit today. And I was like, oh, man, I don't even know if they need him. But that if. That if they're going for it this year. For the people listening, the UFAs, Finney Smith, Miles Turner, technically right now, but everyone thinks he's going back to Indiana. Ty Jerome, Alexander, Walker Capella. Bruce Brown now underrated. I don't know if you want to join me on buying some. Bruce Brown is now underrated stock post Jokic. Okay, Yabaselli, can I interest you in a 14 million Emporia glass of Yabacelli, maybe 8.8?
- [29:46]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, yeah, of course. I mean, to me, like, anything under 10 is like. And you can play. You can be a rotation guy.
- [29:52]
Bill Simmons
Luke Canard.
- [29:55]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah.
- [29:57]
Bill Simmons
Where's the range for him there? 8.8.
- [30:01]
Ryan Rosillo
The thing is, is, like, if you go, hey, we'll give you four for 40, and then every agent's just going to say, we can get 14. And then with as many teams, he's just listed like, good luck being the gm, that's going to call the bluff on a guy that you actually want. So you're probably just going to pay him the 14.
- [30:15]
Bill Simmons
I think I've said this to you, but my dream Luke Canard team is Denver. Putting him with Jokic, I think would be really fun. Schroeder, who I think is probably not a 14 guy, but might be an 8.8. Man, this one hurts Luke Cornett. I think teams like him, like, I don't think this is going to go well for the Celtics. I thought there was going to be a way that they were going to bring back Luke Cornett and Horford, and I don't see it.
- [30:43]
Ryan Rosillo
So far, everything is working out for him, so I'm not going to rule out anything. I still can't believe that they were able to dump Drew's contract and get back Anthony Simons. And I still can't believe that it's another fan base that holds out hope that Porzingis is going to be healthy.
- [30:58]
Bill Simmons
I said it was a borderline miracle on my Thursday podcast that they shed $28 million with those two guys. It was incredible how it turned out. I was getting texts like, yo, what's up with Brad? Is he like a fucking wizard? Like, what. What's. How did he do this? I still like KP, but I. You know why? To cut 22 million. I thought was. Was a miracle.
- [31:27]
Ryan Rosillo
Can you expand on why You. You like Porzingis?
- [31:30]
Bill Simmons
I think for what Atlanta gave up, like, whatever, it's one year. It's a one year flyer in him. When he played last year, he was really, really good. I have no idea what happened to him in the playoffs. Nobody's been able to answer it, and we've all agreed never to talk about it again. For some reason. The guy was unplayable and looked like he had like a. Like a virus. I don't understand what happened. And now he's fine. He's playing for the Latvian team. It's really weird.
- [31:56]
Ryan Rosillo
When he's healthy, he's good. And the idea of what he can be is a rim protecting stretch five is still really valuable. But even when the Celtics had made that deal, even though I liked him a lot, I was like, so you had attack on like two more years of 30 plus million for this guy, and then I still feel like Celtics fans revisit 24 being like, you know, he was huge. It's kind of. It's kind of like the guy that's getting laid off and you're. You're saying it like the lunch where people are getting cake or whatever, and it's like, although there's usually not a lot of cake, that's where.
- [32:28]
Bill Simmons
That's where Porzingis was for you, is the guy getting laid off at lunch?
- [32:32]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, but people just like, pat him on the back and be like, you know, this department just, none of this would have happened without you. When the reality is, if he was that valuable, then he probably would have still been there. And it felt like that's what people were saying about porzingis in the 24 title run was like, well, those. That Dallas, that one Dallas game. Do you really think he was great.
- [32:52]
Bill Simmons
During this season, though? Come on.
- [32:53]
Ryan Rosillo
He was great during the season, but I.
- [32:55]
Bill Simmons
He got hurt. He got hurt. Like, everybody was worried that he would.
- [32:58]
Ryan Rosillo
Get hurt, and he got hurt all the time.
- [33:01]
Bill Simmons
He got hurt again.
- [33:03]
Ryan Rosillo
Right. And so the way I've seen the Atlanta part of the acquisition is like, oh, my. You know, like. Like, sure, maybe. And at least for them, it's only one year, and the Celtics had to make that extra investment, but it. It becomes one of those transactions that's going to be remembered as a win because they won a title when they didn't need him for the title run in 24 whatsoever. And not having him again this year and having this version, I understood why Missoula tried to play him. It was clear he was trying to get something out of him. But I actually feel like that transaction was a loss, but no one will ever remember it that way because they won a title.
- [33:40]
Bill Simmons
I think it's a win because they won a title. Last year sucked and. And then they were able to get out of the contract. So I think ultimately the fact that they were able to escape, but they escaped because it's weird. I. I don't I didn't do a good job of talking about this the other day. I still don't know what Brooklyn was doing getting the 22nd pick and Terrence Mann, who makes a real, real amount of money, like 15 million. We just were. I was going through those UFAs with you. Terrence Mann was a free agent. I don't think he's getting 15 million. Right. Like, say, the other guys I was going to mention was Schroeder, Cornette, Kavan Looney, Batum Porter, Gary Trent, Tim Hardaway, Brogdon, Chris, Paul, Lavert, Horford, Duncan Robinson. Now you go on and on, but Terrence Mann for 15 million is not exactly a bargain. And I wasn't that excited about the 22nd pick in the draft, so I don't really know what Brooklyn was doing with that. Did you understand that.
- [34:38]
Ryan Rosillo
When they already had all those picks to take on the money?
- [34:41]
Bill Simmons
I mean, four fucking first rounders already.
- [34:43]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. And especially the way people felt about this draft. I guess there's all sorts of like, man, Bogdanovich, Net stuff that I don't understand, like, collectively about the whole transaction. It's like, okay, so you didn't want to lose Bogdanovich. You were sick of him. Granted, he just sucked this past season that he was with Atlanta.
- [35:01]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [35:02]
Ryan Rosillo
And so it's like, all right, let's get this guy out of here. So they trade him at the deadline and don't forget Bones Highland in that transaction. And then they take on man's contract. And then it's like, now we have to dump it. Granted, leadership had changed and everything, so it was just a weird series of transactions. Like, why did you trade for them?
- [35:25]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. Five months ago, Atlanta basically trades Niang Terrence mann in the 22nd pick to take a real flyer on Porzingis with some flexibility to do some other stuff. I still kind of like it. This episode is brought to you by Vrbo Private Vacation Rentals. Vrbo. You can save over $200 on select homes when you stay for a week or more. Say if you wanted to go catch a couple baseball games in Boston, take some time off work, flying to Beantown, watch the Sox play. After that, you can do anything. You can go book a VRBO in Cape Cod for a week. The world is your oyster or your lobster roll or clam chowder. Really. It has shells, gills, and it's indigenous to the Atlantic. It's your edible metaphor of choice. That crustacean crazy around there. Guess what? Since you stayed longer than a week, you saved over $200. You know what that means? More shellfish. I love shellfish. Hope you're not allergic. Next vacation. Stay longer and save. Make it a vrbo. By the way, this special portion of the Bill Simmons podcast, brought to you by Loom by Atlassian. When you're feeling stuck at work, they can help you trade out lengthy emails and unproductive meetings for something better. Loom's video messaging. With it, you can record your screen, you and your voice to share messages easily. You can do this with Chris Long. Just send him a couple so you can save time and still stay connected. Share a quick update, provide feedback, train a colleague, and everything in between. Try loom today@loom.com that is loom. So we're talking about those. There's six RFAs and it seems like Grimes is going back to the Sixers for in that 14 to 60 million range.
- [37:01]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, it seems like a pretty big number.
- [37:05]
Bill Simmons
I was surprised he had like one big month for them. We've got to watch him for the last four or five years and it just seemed a little aggressive, didn't you think? I thought it would have been like around 10. Unless they thought he. There was some team that was just going to sign him if they didn't give the money.
- [37:25]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I think sometimes too, it's like anybody, like, you're only making so much, they go, well, he, you know, he's going to make that much after the fact. And I've always kind of liked him a little bit, even going back to those Knicks years. And then it was something else to get on Dallas's case about by getting rid of him and then bringing in the Caleb Martin contract, where you're like.
- [37:42]
Bill Simmons
Why are you part of Nico's plan?
- [37:44]
Ryan Rosillo
How about that guy, huh? People starting to understand the vision because the lottery just worked out for you.
- [37:50]
Bill Simmons
There was a vision all along. The vision was we're going to cash in a 1.8% chance to win the lottery. We've had a vision all along that we would have a miracle in May.
- [38:01]
Ryan Rosillo
Sixers have been busy, though, because Ubere picked up the option.
- [38:06]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, I thought you were going to report that. I was waiting to hear that from you.
- [38:09]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, honestly from another reporter, he hasn't been one of my favorites, but for 8.4 for him, that's kind of a win. But that's for Philly. Yeah, that's. That's one of the differences, though, between, like, what's Uber's representation saying to him about, like, what's out there for him? And if they're coming back going, hey, we didn't even think you can get the 14 then. That's clearly why he's picking that up. Lonnie Walker, see Eric Gordon, you know, I mean, I don't know. There was some rumor that declining to 3.4 million means they can get him at a lower number, bring him back. Certainly that's still in the ballpark. But the Grimes number, he was really productive. But yeah, I think we're in agreement that I was like, man, that thing's going to get north of like 15 million for him.
- [38:47]
Bill Simmons
I was surprised. I would have guessed in the tens. There's some other veterans. Like, Russ is back. I know you're excited about that as a free agent.
- [38:55]
Ryan Rosillo
I can't wait.
- [38:56]
Bill Simmons
GP2 is out there.
- [38:59]
Ryan Rosillo
I like him.
- [39:00]
Bill Simmons
Brook Lopez, who I did not think was good last year, but I think there's so few centers out there that he'll get one more. Where do you stand on Laravia?
- [39:09]
Ryan Rosillo
I like Laravia. Just kind of like him too, you know, as a one more shot, probably short years, maybe I'd overpay for a year to give it a. But I'd have to have like a club option on the second year maybe. And then maybe his reps are like, absolutely not. Like, it depends on where he's going to go and what kind of options he's going to get.
- [39:28]
Bill Simmons
Do you have any Kean Ellis excitement?
- [39:31]
Ryan Rosillo
Very active player.
- [39:35]
Bill Simmons
Dinwiddie, I know you're not a fan. We know where you stand on d' Angelo Russell, who's available. Tyus Jones did not acquit himself. Great. In Phoenix. It really starts going downhill from the. From the RFAs. Santi Aldama, I think, is an interesting one and I wonder if he could slide into that 14.1 potentially for somebody trying to pull, I think Memphis match.
- [40:01]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, they'd be psyched. They'd be thrilled if they took an offer sheet at 14.1 because I think he's a $20 million guy. If Jabari. Yeah, I do.
- [40:10]
Bill Simmons
I. I think you'd put him in the Jabari level.
- [40:13]
Ryan Rosillo
He's more productive than Jabari is. I actually think he's shown more than Jabari.
- [40:18]
Bill Simmons
In my head, I am a notch lower, but maybe you're right. I don't know.
- [40:23]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I think Aldama is actually pretty underrated. I'm not telling you like that. I think he's like a 2 on a really good playoff team. But the Bain contract and that deal, even though we had a lot of fun as soon as it had happened, it seems pretty clear that it was about flexibility for whatever is coming for Alabama, a Jaren Jackson extension, and then, you know, figuring this thing out on the fly again. And maybe they get a response.
- [40:46]
Bill Simmons
There's another piece I think they were excited about. Maybe they knew they had a chance to get Coward in the draft. I think they love Wells. They have all these other dudes. I think they just seems like they felt like wings by committee. We can replace Bain's stats, which I'm not against. I still don't think they should have traded them, but I get the logic. I'm not against. I'm not against the logic of it. I just wouldn't have traded them.
- [41:08]
Ryan Rosillo
But it does feel like they're. And look, they're one of the smarter front. Front offices. I think what they do is they go, okay, you know, this is a haul for Bane and we really like them, but we're getting in front of this and then we can clean up our books. And now we're going to have multiple chances here to fill things in around how, you know, we identify the top three guys. You know, maybe Aldama's at third, maybe he isn't. Wells is certainly more of a. I'd.
- [41:32]
Bill Simmons
Vote no on that.
- [41:33]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, okay. But I. If Aldama were, there's no way he's going to sign an offer sheet for 14.1 million because the Grizzlies would be pumped. I would think their reps would already know. Like, hey, part of the plan is getting you settled. You think he would sign that?
- [41:49]
Bill Simmons
No, I just. I don't know anything anymore with these numbers. I don't know who. I can't get a handle on it. I'd be the first one to admit it, but. So the difference with that Bain trade versus how I felt about the New Orleans trade a couple days ago, the Bain trade. I get the logic. I just personally wouldn't done it, but I get it. And if you feel like you can replace them with the wings, like, I get it. The New Orleans, not putting a top five protection on that pick, I don't get. You're never going to convince me that that was a good idea. And I know you feel the same and I know everybody else who follows basketball. Like, nobody will ever understand why you played it that way. It was poorly done and that's it. And it has nothing to do with whether you think Derek Queen's good or not. He might be really good. The point is, you put this crazy price on moving up 10 spots that you didn't need to do and is absolutely reckless and incomprehensible. And I still don't get it. Five days later, four days later.
- [42:46]
Ryan Rosillo
I don't get it, man. Everybody's talking about it, too, still.
- [42:49]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, everybody's talking about it. Them and LeBron are the. Been the two kind of stealth topics right now. Been the. What the hell is New Orleans doing?
- [42:59]
Ryan Rosillo
Been a lot of nets in there. They really did it.
- [43:10]
Bill Simmons
A lot of ball handlers. There's some. There's some. Your guy, Yang. I definitely feel like. Pick your guy, Yang.
- [43:18]
Ryan Rosillo
Give me Bill. I want a couple minutes on him. The floor is yours.
- [43:22]
Bill Simmons
Well, here's the thing. And this goes back to your New Orleans point. So if they're really calling around, trying to move up for Derrick Queen and there for Portland, can we move up to your spot to number 11 before they trade back to 16? Can we move up to 11? Because we really want Derek Queen. And you can have 20, 23, whatever it was, and you could just. And we'll give you this crazy, unprotected pick. They could have taken Yang at 23. Right? Nobody would have. Nobody would have taken him from there before that. You really feel like he would have gone before 23.
- [44:05]
Ryan Rosillo
He was killing it, the combine dude.
- [44:09]
Bill Simmons
Chances are no Chinese joker.
- [44:12]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, yeah. Because I was getting a few of the picks, like, ahead of time, and so all I got was, oh, my God, wait until you see 16. So the guy wasn't going to, like, yeah, give it to me because he wanted me to experience it live.
- [44:29]
Bill Simmons
Do you have any chance, you have any thought in your head Yang could go in the top 25?
- [44:34]
Ryan Rosillo
No, no. But I did get a few texts of, like, your guy.
- [44:44]
Bill Simmons
The best shit was really high level. I mean, I couldn't watch enough of it. Oh, I watched all of it. I was. I was. He. I got to admit, he wasn't on my radar going into Wednesday night, but he. He jumped into the radar.
- [44:56]
Ryan Rosillo
I tell you, if you watch his mixtape, you're like, how did he last until 16?
- [45:01]
Bill Simmons
See the future of basketball? I heard that at the very least, they just feel like there's revenue from him because of the China pipeline. When you. When you have these guys on a team, you just make money from them. You make real money. And if he. And if he's good, it's a bonus. But then they obviously liked him as a player, too, as a project. But if you can get this guy and keep them on your team for five years, there's real revenue that comes.
- [45:25]
Ryan Rosillo
With that, it would help if he's good too. Hollinger does a really good job on like just pointing out like there's a lot of international star stats that are good indicators they're better than college stats and how they translate to what you should expect college player becoming an NBA player. And his argument was like, hey, look, like the league he played in, he wasn't exactly killing it there. And that's a little alarming. NBA cast offs are crushing it. That can't even stick in the NBA and they're killing it in this league. And like. But now granted, he's really, really young, but for somebody that big that moved that well, that had these little flashes of like, well, that was kind of cool. Like I figured, okay, this guy's definitely going to get drafted now. But I didn't. Yeah, there's no way I thought it would be. It's.
- [46:11]
Bill Simmons
It's so funny that he went to Portland, the team probably that you and I talk about the most. That just makes no sense that should be in our lives in any way. And now like, you know the true thing. I still feel like there's some real benefits with the, with the leadership stuff and the veteran stuff with him and just having like a real adult in there. And he's a beloved teammate. There's reasons beyond just trading Simon.
- [46:34]
Ryan Rosillo
That's a pretty expensive beloved teammate, man. Two years from.
- [46:37]
Bill Simmons
Listen, they're trying to change the culture. They're trying to build around a defense.
- [46:41]
Ryan Rosillo
But you keep him last time.
- [46:43]
Bill Simmons
Well, I mean, two years ago. They're trying to tank as part of the trade.
- [46:47]
Ryan Rosillo
All right. But I don't know. Yeah, I get it. Right. All right, they're tanking. Their fear is I just, I'd rather not pay a 37 year old guy two years from now. 37.4 million for vibes.
- [47:00]
Bill Simmons
Here's the other problem is the playoffs I think made us all nervous with him. It wasn't awesome if he's moving toward a slightly different phase of his career, that 37 year contract.
- [47:14]
Ryan Rosillo
But listen, I thought it was a big price to pay. And I still like when we were talking about it more on the Celtics side, but I can't get on Portland. They took my guy lobs scoot to Yang. And then here's the thing. I don't even know he was, he was Hanson Yang at the combine and now he's young Hanson. So who knows opening night what his name's going to be then? Maybe Dave.
- [47:37]
Bill Simmons
Dave Yang.
- [47:39]
Ryan Rosillo
No, I'm serious. Like there's so many times with international guys you just go through the cycle of what the fuck's this guy's name again?
- [47:47]
Bill Simmons
So potentially we could have scoot Drew Holliday, Kamara, Denny and Yang out there all at the same time. I don't know. I'll have a good time.
- [47:57]
Ryan Rosillo
I just telling you for the first eight and quote when. When Yang's getting his minutes because they still have clinging too.
- [48:07]
Bill Simmons
I assumed as teams got desperate for centers that there would actually be an 8 market that would materialize. And I'm not going to count it out because I mean let's. We should talk about the trade that Sexton Nurkic trade today. I thought that was a dumbfounding trade. I didn't understand that at all. Utah traded Sexton with a second round pick to get Nurkic back. And I can't tell if this means centers have become more valuable or what's going on because Phoenix tried to trade Nurkic for two months last season and nobody wanted him and they finally had to attach some stuff to get rid of him. Sexton say what you want about the dude. The Guy's like a 40% 3 point shooter and scores 18 a game in like 28 minutes. Like he's a real guard, he's a real offensive player. That would help a bunch of good teams. And Charlotte just basically took them. I didn't understand that trade at all.
- [49:00]
Ryan Rosillo
The only thing I can understand is between Collier and Keonte George, who you know, you still have hope for with Utah and then you know, you just.
- [49:09]
Bill Simmons
Feel kind of guard heavy and Clayton junior's coming in.
- [49:13]
Ryan Rosillo
Clayton Jr. The draft pick who was awesome, as we all know, you know, they clearly they don't really know what they are at this point and we'll see what happens to Ace and all these different things. Like they wanted to make some room. But I would tell you like the player you're getting back in Nurkic versus the player that's going out and they're Both expiring around 19 million and you can get on their case for having to attach a second rounder, you know, whatever. It just feels like player for player. Charlotte got the much better player.
- [49:42]
Bill Simmons
And I have an extra reason that I think that trade happened. But we have to say goodbye to Loom by Atlassian because that special portion of today's episode is brought to you by them video messaging from Loom. You can trade out those novel length emails and back to back calls. Finally, stop feeling stuck at work. Simply record whenever you need to share it with your team. No video production writing skills are needed. It has easy to use skills and AI features to help you make it exactly what you want. Get back on track. Try loom today@loom.com l o m.com that trade was so weird that I now feel like Utah, that was the trade before the trade. I really do. And you know, there's been rumors about them trading Kessler. The Lakers have wanted him for two years, but I was just in a trade machine rabbit hole trying to figure out what the next move was. And do you have any? Well, there's a LeBron piece we have to talk about because there's.
- [50:35]
Ryan Rosillo
Were they still mentoring?
- [50:37]
Bill Simmons
Not LeBron to Utah. I don't. I don't feel like that would happen, but I think Utah is a facilitator in a three team trade. With Utah and Cleveland, I just feel like it just sent my shit detector off. And that rarely happens with trades where I'm like, huh? I'm pretty sure Danny Ainge knows basketball and I know Austin does. And they just traded Colin Sexton with a pick to get Nurkic. And I just feel like that means something else is going to happen. I was in the trade machine trying to figure it out because they could send a bunch of stuff, they could take contracts back. And the bigger question is, is LeBron going to stay with the Lakers, which is the other topic that has been a big behind the scenes thing. He did the thing today where he opted in for the 53 million, had to put out through Rich Paul, that he's going to be monitoring closely all the movement. I don't know what he thinks the movement's going to be because they're paying him and Luca combined $98 million. The cap's 154. They're keeping Reeves. They have $70 million more in contracts. There's not a lot of movement. They're not going to be able to trade Reeves for a center. They can't extend Reeves either. And I don't know what he thinks is going to happen with this team. And I don't know if he's staying and I don't know what the move is because once you opt in, you're basically saying a trade. And at that point it's Cleveland. There's a buyout possibility which I don't understand in a million years why they would ever do that. And I don't know how this plays out, but it feels like we're going to be talking about it for the next three weeks is my guess.
- [52:13]
Ryan Rosillo
When he first opted in the first thing I was looking at was the Dorian Finney Smith decision on where that would put them between a full mid level and a taxpayer mid level, which is you're talking about some of the names you've already covered or maybe Brook Lopez, you know, for the taxpayer mid level. So when I was looking at that, I was thinking, did he really take like the full boat? And now they can't bring in a full mid level guy when they desperately need a center. Are they going to be left with.
- [52:41]
Bill Simmons
The no trade too?
- [52:42]
Ryan Rosillo
Right, right. And so after Finney Smith ops out and then I looked at it again, it looks like they're going to have the full taxpayer mid level. So like the angst that I think LeBron some of, like the early angst was, is this going to cost the Lakers a decent center option versus here's the budget bin of centers. Because however now it still could get a little weird. I'm sure there's, there's moves to be made, but I don't, I don't really know like why it's not about him taking less money. Because I don't know that I ever feel comfortable being like, hey, you should take less money, you should take less money. But what he can't do is be upset.
- [53:22]
Bill Simmons
You can't be upset, which we've seen over and over again in the NBA. You've chose to reenter this situation. You can't, then you can't get the.
- [53:31]
Ryan Rosillo
Lack of options that the team will likely have. And you know, like Kobe got that massive extension at the time when none of us could ever believe it. And if you don't have the pieces around it and you're kind of just paying a collection of guys that aren't very good and then you're kind of stuck financially and then it's like, man, nobody wants it more than Kobe's. Like he can want it all he wants, but there's no outs. There's no outs where any of this talent coming out. So I mean, unless there's a Reeves deal where they feel like, hey, we're less like dominant on the perimeter, where it's three guys taking turns, you know, maybe, maybe there's something there beyond that.
- [54:08]
Bill Simmons
Though with the three guys, because none of them are good defensive players. I mean, LeBron is sometimes a good defensive player, but when you're thinking about a team built around those three, we saw it in the playoffs, it's not going to work if those are your three guys. I don't think, and especially LeBron's going to be 41 next year. This is only going to get worse. It's not going to get better. Even though I thought in the regular season he exceeded expectations, but got hurt in the playoffs, in the first round. You get older, you're just going to get hurt more often. It's the way it goes. And they're paying. Him and Bronny together is 55 million. You add Luka. Luka has a big extension coming. There's just no way to improve the roster. And every Laker fan I talk to says, well, you just got to trade Reeves for a center. It's like, well, who's the center? Go through all the teams. Who are you getting? Like, are you going to be happy with, like, a congu. And why would Atlanta do that? Like, he's just. I. I just think they're stuck with this roster, and they're stuck between the proverbial rock and a hard place, and it's going to lead to some sort of move with him. I don't believe for a second that he doesn't want to win another title and that he doesn't care about rings. I think he does. I just don't believe it.
- [55:22]
Ryan Rosillo
You don't believe what part?
- [55:24]
Bill Simmons
When he's talking about ring culture, that stuff doesn't matter. Like, I think he wants to win the title again. He's going to try to go to a situation where he can win the title.
- [55:33]
Ryan Rosillo
So you think this is the precursor to him actually moving? Because that Cleveland thing.
- [55:38]
Bill Simmons
I do. I think it's in play. I really do.
- [55:41]
Ryan Rosillo
Okay. All right. I'm not disputing it, but when I look at the Cleveland side of it, that's the one that I don't understand. And, you know, a third team. I know that's always our kind of default of like, hey, to make this happen. Who's going to third team this thing? But why would I move out Garland and Jared Allen?
- [55:56]
Bill Simmons
No, it wouldn't be. I don't think it's Garland and Jared Allen. I think it would. See there. I think it would be Jared Allen with Hunter, and that you could get a third team involved and make something work with that pretty quickly. But the Garland piece is weird because I think he is out there a little bit in. In. Like, I think he's. I think teams feel like he's attainable. Like, you're gonna have to pay for him. You're not just gonna steal him. But I. I don't think he's not. I wouldn't say this. I don't think he's untouchable. The stuff about him being the Durant trade was wrong. I think that was something Phoenix wanted, not them. But I do think, you know, I do wonder from a Cleveland standpoint, do they worry that this is the guy who gets hunted in the playoffs and can we change our team? If we change our team in some way, that's who we should do with? You know where I stand on Garland. I would not trade him. I think his two injuries. He had a fucked up toe, which could happen to anybody, and he ate, broke his face. Like, it's. You can't say, like he's injury prone. And I, I just think he's really good. And if I was another gm, I'd be trying to get him right now. If there was even a shadow of an opening that he might be available. Like, if I'm name a team, I, I would be like going hard after trying to get him.
- [57:16]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, now that Orlando did the Bane thing, right. Yeah. I don't know what Sacramento has that's enticing at all. Chicago already traded guys, but even when you look at the Lakers like, is there a Rui deal out there for somebody? Is Vando have any trade value at this point? Does anybody care about Gabe Vincent at 10 million for the one? So if this team is going to. Because there was that stretch there, right? They figured out defensively, like the funniest thing about the Lakers timeline is as soon as they make the Luca trade, you're like, okay, well this is for the future. Makes all sense in the world. He one of the best players in the world who cares about 25. And then they figure some stuff out, right? And then they get this great seat and you're thinking defensively and then people are actually talking about him. And I think it was a bit of like the overvaluing, just the Lakers part of it where everybody's picking him in that first round series against Minnesota. And then that seems like one of the most absurd things ever now in hindsight, because you're like, why did. Why did they think they're going to be able to hang with him? And Jackson Hayes is so bad that JJ just pulls the plug because. Because like, if you're telling me Jackson Hayes getting more minutes would have solved your problems in playoffs, then I would say that we're just going to disagree and move on from that whole thing. So.
- [58:21]
Bill Simmons
And. And they, they were really physical with LeBron in a way that was surprising.
- [58:25]
Ryan Rosillo
Randall was excited when LeBron was on. Yeah, that was a weird thing to see.
- [58:30]
Bill Simmons
But that's the thing. When I talk about building around those three guys, I, I mean, we, we'll see what kind of shape Luka's in next year. But if those are your three, with what we just watched from a Hoko and a City, I don't, I don't think it works. And I think LeBron is smarter about basketball than just about on the planet and he has to see that his supercomputer brain has to look at. All right, if these three guys are out there in crunch time for us, and I'm one of them, and we're playing a team like okc, who else needs to be on our team? Well, we need an awesome rim, running center, defensive shot blocker to protect all of us. Well, how the fuck are we going to get that guy? We've already traded all of our. That guy doesn't exist. Oh, is it going to be Kessler that's going to be. That's going to change you from being so much game to four rounds.
- [59:19]
Ryan Rosillo
I know, but it's still so much better than.
- [59:22]
Bill Simmons
But also, why am I trading Kessler from Utah?
- [59:25]
Ryan Rosillo
That's the other part.
- [59:26]
Bill Simmons
I want to get something back. Like, there's. Nobody has centers like that anymore. Even like somebody like Clingan, I feel like, has more value. So I think you're looking at like a deandre Ayton type of, you know, moving a bunch of contracts, attaching a pick and trying to roll the dice with like, somebody like him. And is that going to get you four rounds? No. So I, I just think he's trying to figure this out because I don't. I just don't believe him. I think he wants to win the title again.
- [59:52]
Ryan Rosillo
Good luck on the Ayton thing. I do want to see it happen. It's just that, I mean, that's such a massive. It's 35 and a half million for him in this. Yeah.
- [60:01]
Bill Simmons
You could do the cleaver, Vincent. Like, you could throw some. You could patch some contracts together and attach an asset and maybe, I don't.
- [60:09]
Ryan Rosillo
Know, I just want to see him go somewhere to watch that fan base talk themselves into it and I'll sit back and be entertained.
- [60:16]
Bill Simmons
Fair.
- [60:17]
Ryan Rosillo
Like Miami would be my favorite.
- [60:20]
Bill Simmons
Can I walk you through a fake trade I made?
- [60:23]
Ryan Rosillo
Please do. I probably don't have a choice, but I do want to hear it, so.
- [60:27]
Bill Simmons
I think it's in your wheelhouse. LeBron and his son go to Cleveland.
- [60:33]
Ryan Rosillo
What if his son is like, actually, no.
- [60:37]
Bill Simmons
Does he ever trade? Veto. Utah gets Darius Garland And Rui Hachimura. The Lakers get Kessler, Lonzo Ball, Jordan Clarkson, and John Collins. And Utah has to throw a pick or two, has to sprinkle some picks around because ultimately they're getting Darius Garland, the youngest.
- [61:07]
Ryan Rosillo
This is your Sexton thing.
- [61:09]
Bill Simmons
This is tied to the Sexton thing. You get Nurkic because you know you have Kessler going in this other trade. I don't know. I was excited about it.
- [61:17]
Ryan Rosillo
It's like, Bay was the Magic. Be like, it's Jaren Jackson better with the Lakers or the Clippers.
- [61:23]
Bill Simmons
I just am on the record, I don't think Cleveland should trade Darius Garland. But I'm just saying, like, I wonder if those types of deals are being talked about or could you do like a Darius Garland tour team Toronto for who with Max Struz. And the Lakers get Purdle and RJ Barrett. And LeBron just goes to Cleveland like that. The reason I'm bringing up these trades is like, if LeBron's actually leaving the Lakers, these are the type of trades that would have to happen for this to happen. And the other option would be where the Lakers buy him out and he just jumps on a team. And I don't know why they would do that in a million years. So I think this is the whole reason I'm talking about this is. I think this is going to be really hard now that he's opted in for any other outcome than he's just on the team doing the. I don't know. We'll see what they do. I'm monitoring it. It's like, okay, glad you're monitoring it. Like, we're not going to be able to get a center. Do you want us to trade two unprotected first rounders for Kessler? Like, why we have the Lakers have Luca Donage now. Why are they doing that? Like, they. They're in Luca mode now for the next 10 years. How do we build around Luca? So it's really awkward. I. And I'm surprised it's not a bigger story. I think this is pretty strange.
- [62:43]
Ryan Rosillo
Okay, but what do you think should have happened? Do you think he should have taken less? Do you think they should have? Well, he has the no trade, so he's going to be able to veto anything. Do you think they should have tried to figure out?
- [62:54]
Bill Simmons
Well, I think that's what he wanted. I think he wanted a longer commitment. Well, I mean, come on, he's 40, going to be 41. This is why I'm talking about this. I think this is a really Weird situation. And on top of it, they just sold the team and they didn't give his whole side a heads up on any of it, which you kind of had.
- [63:18]
Ryan Rosillo
That transaction's been talked about for two years.
- [63:20]
Bill Simmons
I get it.
- [63:21]
Ryan Rosillo
Just.
- [63:22]
Bill Simmons
I'm just telling you the stuff I've heard, so I don't know. It's a weird one. And you could feel the Lakers shifting toward Luka, which is a situation he's never been in before. Now, granted, he's been in the league 23 years, so it's maybe time for some new situations, but I think they have a new owner, guy paid a lot of money, and they're going to gear this thing toward Luca, and they have to figure out the LeBron piece. And I don't know how they figure it out. And maybe this will turn into, like, you know what? Actually, let's. I'm good here. Let's stay. But I think it's worth monitoring.
- [63:59]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, but the likely outcome is what? They figure out some sort of center. We don't know which world they'll be in. They probably get the benefit. Center is okay, but they're gonna. I doubt they're gonna go into it without one again.
- [64:12]
Bill Simmons
Do you have Laker fans in your life where it's like, we just got to get. Bam.
- [64:17]
Ryan Rosillo
Not in my life. But I'm.
- [64:19]
Bill Simmons
That's like, people just think, like, we'll just. Well, we'll just get Clint Capella. It's like, okay, you seen Clint Capella the last couple of years?
- [64:27]
Ryan Rosillo
That would have been a huge. Clint Capella would have been a much better option than Jackson Hayes. Than Jackson Hayes. Yeah. Fair, even. Okay, so let's say it's pretty clear that Capella's on the decline here and why Atlanta went the route that they went with a Kombu. But the likely scenario here is what he doesn't. Does he really Want to leave LA? He makes his 50 plus million. His son's still on the team. Luca comes back even better shape. You know, they're. They're able to reinvigorate teams.
- [64:56]
Bill Simmons
Lucas in such good shape. LeBron's reinvigorated. That's probably how it's probably. I would bet on that as the maybe most likely scenario, but I still.
- [65:03]
Ryan Rosillo
Think their win total.
- [65:04]
Bill Simmons
I think there's a lot of smoke.
- [65:06]
Ryan Rosillo
Like 47 and a half, 48 and a half. I mean, we still got to figure out. You gotta be.
- [65:10]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, you gotta add the extra two. They always pad the. It's like the Red Sox over, under for Wins. There's certain teams where they pad the over under because they know the fan. The team has a huge fan base. So I'd say probably like 47, a 48 and a half. Here's the thing. Luka could come show up and look like, look like the best shape. We were all in disbelief how good he looks. And he's one of the best five, six, seven players in the league. And maybe that's 50 wins if he's just in awesome shape playing great. We've seen guys just be so good that they're just in the 45 to 50 win range because they're on your team.
- [65:54]
Ryan Rosillo
And really what they need is they need like a 28 minute a night center who can run all night, can run for Luca. You don't have to necessarily be a stretch. I mean, they're not going to be able to afford the rim protecting, run all night young guy who's also a stretch five. Okay, so that's, that's not going to happen. But considering what Luca has done in the past with some of those Dallas teams and you figure offensively you're going to be fine. They ran into the worst matchup. If they had, if they had faced Golden State with their lack of size, you know, maybe Golden State's like, hey, this is great. We actually don't have to worry about the Laker size, conversely. But it, it's probably, there's probably like two matchups there with how weird the seating was. Just shuffling throughout the last couple weeks of the season where something that looked like it was a benefit to the Lakers to fight to get a three seed. So I still think they're probably even with their flaws last year, just anything that's a plus. Anything that JJ Reddick can look down at the bench and go like, okay, well, at least I feel okay with this guy for 20 minutes. And if there's nights that we want to go small and he doesn't necessarily have to play because he's not a guy that's a $20 million a year center because that transaction is not gonna be able to happen. I still think they'll be like in a decent enough spot if everybody's healthy again, that it's. It's gonna feel like they're somewhat competitive and that'll probably be enough, I would think. But you seem to think that there's much more. Like there's some really potential. Like you've. The reason you keep bringing this up is you think there's potential for something crazy. All like some crazy scenario.
- [67:21]
Bill Simmons
I think crazy is in, in play now. There's also like there's regular season versus playoffs, which we talk about a lot. Whatever happens in the regular season with the, with whatever team they end up with versus what we know is going to be needed in the playoffs that we watch every year and we're like, oh yeah, defense, oh yeah, you need depth. Like they just have a lot of shit that they need to pull off. That's a big one for me. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. During the season, every baseball team plays 162 games. It's a true test of endurance. It's not enough to have a hot month or two. You need sustained dominance throughout. Well, the same is true for your small business. It's not enough to have a great Q2 or even a great year. You want year over year growth that starts with better hires that'll be there for the long haul. To find Those hires, use LinkedIn. LinkedIn has strong hiring data and insights that you won't find anywhere else to help pair you with the best candidates, from unique skills and interests to the connections you have in common. Based on LinkedIn data, 72% of small businesses say that LinkedIn helps them find high quality talent. LinkedIn also lets you go beyond people who are actively applying. In a given week, 171 million LinkedIn members aren't actively seeking jobs, but they are open to new opportunities. That's a big pool to miss out on. If you're not hiring with LinkedIn. Find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com Simmons that's LinkedIn.com Simmons to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by Visit Myrtle Beach. If you're dreaming of a beachy summer escape, then head to the beach In Myrtle Beach, S.C. you'll find 60 miles of stunning coastline, hundreds of attractions to explore in the South's newest foodie hotspot. This is where you play hard and beach easy. You belong at the Beach. Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. Start planning your summer adventure at Visit MyrtleBeach. Com. Lowe's knows that taking on more projects should be rewarding. That's why loyalty members get more every day with rewards for every home or business purchase. Plus shop weekly member deals to get access to free standard shipping. So what are you waiting for? Join my Lowe's Rewards for Free Today Loyalty Program subject to Terms and conditions details@lowe's.com terms subject to change Atlanta's $25 million trade exception, I think is fascinating because in, in some ways, that's the best spot for. I don't know what, like, whether you. Could that be like a DeMar DeRozan spot. If Sacramento just wants to get off his deal, could that be part of, like, they help out with a trade package in general. And I know people have talked about it all week. I think Atlanta is in unbelievable shape with the roster they have and the assets they have to put. You know, they're not at. They're not at where Houston is from a close to win the title standpoint, but it's a little similar in that I just like a lot of their pieces and they have flexibility and they don't have to, you know, they have some extension stuff coming. They have to pay train a year, they're going to have to pay Dyson. But for right now, they actually have the flexibility to do a couple more things. And I think they should. I think. I think the east is, as we've talked about many times, is sitting there to make a move. And that's a team that I think I'm really interested to see what they do over the next 10 days.
- [70:53]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, it could be, you know, they're probably going to end up having a decent record if they get this group, right.
- [70:59]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [71:01]
Ryan Rosillo
With what's happening in the East, I do think it was funny too, when you're mentioning Miles Turner, it's like, okay, this Pacers team never pays the tax. Never pays the tax. Turner is going to be free agent. It has to be north of 20 million. You know, if Randall can get 30, if, if Nas gets a five year.
- [71:15]
Bill Simmons
Deal, he's somewhere between those guys, right?
- [71:18]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. You have to feel like he's north of whatever the number is that puts him in the Tax. And then I was like, I wonder if, because Halliburton's injury, they could be like, well, you know, since we're not going to have Halliburton, like, does that turn into some weird Turner thing? But I doubt it. I highly doubt it. But yeah, I could see a scenario where the Hawks, every year they disappoint me with like, I think we've spent three summers in a row going. I kind of like a lot of the pieces. You know, look at all this depth and look at all these different options that they've had.
- [71:46]
Bill Simmons
This is the most excited I've been about them. I really like. I really like the nucleus. It makes sense to me. We're going to find out once and for all about Trey Young. I think this season what's actually there. This is the perfect roster to have around him for the most part. Although it still feels like they're one kind of reliable score short. That would would help him out if he didn't have it. Is Cleveland standing pat? We talked about Garland earlier. That's another one. Are they just going to be. Are they going to feel like they need to do something or. I was thinking about, especially in the 80s or 90s when a season doesn't turn out the way you think it's going to turn. You know, the Lakers had a couple of those seasons in the 80s where they weren't like, oh, now we have to trade Byron Scott. We lost in round two. And they're just like, no, let's stay with the infrastructure. The smartest teams kind of didn't panic if a season didn't turn out the way they thought. Cleveland, I don't know, I could. I think they should stand. I would roll it back with this team. You're going to lose Ty Jerome. But I would just be like, you know what? The east got worse. We won 64 games. That was fucking weird. Garland was hurt. Moby missed the game. Like we lost the fluky, crazy Halbert and buzzer beater game. Let's not overreact. Let's just run it back. But these teams in 2025 and the 2000s aren't wired that way like they always overreact. So would you overreact or you'd run it back?
- [73:21]
Ryan Rosillo
No. I mean, even when they lost, I was like, you were ready to fire up the trade machine. You had two laptops open like an OILS Future guy. Oil futures. Yeah. So if anything, I mean, after what just happened with Tatum Halliburton, throw Dame into that mix. What's going to happen with Milwaukee? I think it'd be irresponsible to not run it back and give this group one more year together. And granted, the Sam Merrill deal means Jerome's probably gone. So Sam happy to see my guy Sam getting paid. I thought.
- [73:54]
Bill Simmons
I gotta say, that was a little rich. I was surprised. Was would have guessed like it was basically Hauser money be 1 million more.
- [74:03]
Ryan Rosillo
Than Jrue holiday makes in three years.
- [74:07]
Bill Simmons
You really didn't like that trade?
- [74:09]
Ryan Rosillo
I didn't. And I like Portland too. I just thought it was really expensive. You know what we didn't do? We didn't really even finish any of the Pelican stuff. We kind of teased at it.
- [74:19]
Bill Simmons
I had that. Next. Let's go.
- [74:22]
Ryan Rosillo
All right, so if I understand this correctly, so Joe Dumars comes in. Let's go. Right. Brings in Troy Weaver. Troy Weaver spent the previous year with the Wizards as a consultant. So there were rumors before the draft, even the day of, that they were going to take Queen seven. All right. They don't. They take fears. But at that point, everybody in the NBA world knew, like, pelicans love Queen. They love Queen. All right, so then Jaeger goes eight for the Nets. First piece of their adventure. America adventure. Right? Bunch of picks go off the board. You've got the coward trade. So that takes out 11sn gay. For him to leave his team to come to the draft meant that somebody high up enough like was telling you, we don't. We are going to draft you. And he's like, I'm in. I'll get a suit. So then it gets to the Derrick Queen pick. So it's like, okay, so the Pelicans clearly liked him, and boy, did they really like him. And they move back. Well, they move up 10 spots for the unprotected. When I first saw the trade, and I know you've already touched on, I talked about it on the first day. I could do it on Thursday. But I kept waiting to think I was wrong. I was like, is there some language in this that I'm not understanding? I don't quite get right?
- [75:49]
Bill Simmons
Oh, it was the second of the two picks.
- [75:51]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. There's.
- [75:52]
Bill Simmons
They keep the better one. And then. Yeah, yeah. Which, by the way, I think Atlanta might have done. So we get the worst of the Milwaukee or New Orleans. Like, all right, so we're in. Done.
- [76:03]
Ryan Rosillo
Right, Right. And it's like, I'm going. Because the other thing too, is like, to move up 10 spots because I don't even know if the Nets. If the Nets wanted to move from eight to six. Does Washington say yes for the other four? Like, I don't. That might be a no. Washington might not take four extra first rounders just to move back two spots.
- [76:21]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [76:22]
Ryan Rosillo
Because the NBA draft, it doesn't really work that way. So you're moving back, you're moving from 23 to 13. And so then you go, okay, so Weaver did really like him. And then there's the Weaver part of it. They've already traded for Jordan Poole, where you're like, all right, you want to tell me it was just a bad roster and he got shots up and he didn't take it seriously. Like, the tape isn't very good. You know these stories. He was great in the locker room and all this different stuff. It's like, okay, but that means you're paying an extra 30 million. You got an extra 30 million dollar year for the CJ expiring. It sent out. You want to tell me you think CJ's on the down downside of everything? Fine. But he was kind of like the whole point of him being there was the adult in the room. The guy that got it, the guy that wanted to be in New Orleans, which is pretty rare, you know, holiday in Portland. There you go. Exactly. A little cheaper, but you trade out cj. Fine. But for pool, who. No, I'd rather have CJ on my team. But now pool's an extra year of 30 million. Another Wizards guy. Okay, so you've taken a Maryland kid that you've done this unprecedented trade for, because we just still can't believe it. You traded for the extra $30 million here in pool. You brought in Micah, who played at Georgetown. You brought in the undrafted Hunter Dickinson, who is a DeMatha kid. There's an alarming connection of, like, how regional this is becoming, whether it's the wizard stuff or anybody in that area. And I, I gotta tell you, like, the ide. Like, I know Dumar says I was looking for it when he, when he did the press conference. He was like, we took. We, you know, once pick seven went off, like, know they had fears, they take him seven. Then we started calling everybody. I don't know. Do you really think that, like, does Memphis say no if they offer that unprotected in 26? Because they've already done the deal with Portland? Maybe. Do you think Phoenix says no because of malawatch for a pick next year? The extra pick? They could have taken somebody at 23 in the movement, maybe they desperately want.
- [78:24]
Bill Simmons
By the way, why would Brooklyn have said no at 8? I would have done that in five seconds.
- [78:31]
Ryan Rosillo
Maybe because Brooklyn was like, can we use one of these picks? You know, that's in the lot? I don't know.
- [78:38]
Bill Simmons
I mean, I just thought that Milwaukee, New Orleans pick was such an amazing asset because God only knows with Milwaukee and then New Orleans that, you know, that team's going to be. That team's going to be a Mess. Chicago at 12. It would have been criminal if they turned that trade down.
- [78:56]
Ryan Rosillo
Like, that's.
- [78:56]
Bill Simmons
Everyone should be fired if they turn that. If that was offered to them and they're like, no, we have our guy. Like, you should quit.
- [79:03]
Ryan Rosillo
You think Toronto would have turned it down for Murray Boyles?
- [79:07]
Bill Simmons
Well, as we found out, we don't even really know who was running Toronto, they fired their. They fired their guy the day after the draft. That actually happened. That was weird. Yeah.
- [79:18]
Ryan Rosillo
Honestly, though, I think that happens in sports more than people realize. It's like, we're going to get rid of you, but because you've already worked with this entire staff the entire year prepping for this draft night, like, you're going to run the room, but there's probably still somebody else who. Because his number two still there. Oh, and by the way, like, the guy that, that Atlanta dealt with here was Bryson, who came come over as the assistant GM who used to work with New Orleans.
- [79:41]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [79:41]
Ryan Rosillo
So that makes me go like, who.
- [79:43]
Bill Simmons
Also probably knew that they like Queen. Right. He was under the hood with that.
- [79:48]
Ryan Rosillo
So I just, I can't. I try to figure it out.
- [79:53]
Bill Simmons
What are you trying to land the plane on here that you feel like that? It's actually even more dysfunctional than it seemed like from afar.
- [80:01]
Ryan Rosillo
I don't know why Brooklyn would turn it down. I don't know why Toronto would turn it down. I don't know why Phoenix would turn it down. I guess I can understand why Portland in the Memphis deal would have said, hey, we already did too much work on this. But that's where a GM probably goes, are you fucking serious? Hey, Portland, guess what? Or, hey, guess what? Zach and Memphis, like, we're out. Chicago, it's like, oh, we promise Essing. Hey, you know, I mean, the guy just flew and left his team. So there's, there's maybe individual, step by step stuff. You're like, yeah, this is why all of these teams turned it down. I have a hard time believing all those teams turned down what so many people around the league are like, I can't believe they threw in the unprotected pick. Now the reality is, as I land the plane here, it's, what if Queen turns out to be really good? Awesome. What is that?
- [80:41]
Bill Simmons
Doesn't matter with the trade discussion.
- [80:43]
Ryan Rosillo
I know, but, you know, what happens is that we end up only evaluating stuff historically based on the results. And this is the same as the LUCA thing, not to the same magnitude, but it's like if things were to work out for Dallas, it's like, yeah, but still, the fundamental issue is you decided to not build a market for Luka Doncic. And whatever happens from that point on, that is the inexcusable part. And I think in this transaction, again, not nearly the same magnitude, but the likelihood that this, this unprotected pick in 26 turns out to, like, you know, whatever the odds and the way the lottery goes, like, all you guys freaked out about that a year ago and ended up being the 11th pick. And it's like, that's not the point. The point is, is that the internal discussions. At some point, somebody in the room has to go, hey, is there a chance, as much as we like Queen, we're moving up from 23 to 13? And hey, we all like Queen a lot, but is there any chance that the unprotected 26 pick that we're including in this, like, say we in the west and things don't go well and Zion gets hurt? And I know you already saw on Thursday's pod, but, like, is there a chance we're giving up, like, the number one? Could it be, like, worst case scenario, could it be the number one pick in the 26 draft when the answer is yes. That's why so many people are freaked out.
- [81:49]
Bill Simmons
There's one other. There's one other extra question to that. If we just top five protected, are they still saying yes to the deal? And the answer is yes. Yeah, but we have to move back 10 spots and it's just top five protected. There's another crazy piece that I didn't realize when I did my pot on Thursday. They traded. They got that 23rd pick by trading their Indiana 2026 first rounder, which they traded during the finals before Halberton got hurt and then Halliburton got hurt. So they're in 23 by using a pick that then became way more valuable, that they didn't know that it was going to be more valuable. And Atlanta somehow ends up with indies first and then they. The Bucks first or the. I mean, it's just like insane how that played out for them, which is why I was joking on Thursday that they're like spraying champagne on each other after that second trade.
- [82:48]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. And the smart part about the Pacers thing, because we get back to the tax thing and the Turner decision and they're probably going, hey, we like the 26 draft better anyway. We're already a super deep team. And even with the Turner discussion, we. We still have probably a couple other decisions that we have to make on some, like, hey, it's awesome. We're one of the deepest teams in the league. Downside is now we have to keep figuring this thing out because we can't always keep it together. So let's. Let's just go into next year's draft. So I actually thought it was smart from the Pacer side of it. Did you? Were you.
- [83:12]
Bill Simmons
Atlanta has a Lot of assets, though.
- [83:15]
Ryan Rosillo
What were you going to ask when the Pelicans official feed came after you, did you feel. What was that like for you that day?
- [83:23]
Bill Simmons
Laughter.
- [83:26]
Ryan Rosillo
Laughter. I laughed after pain. Did you feel like you could have been a social media guy? Seriously, if it's 21 year old, Bill. 20, 25. I mean, granted, you fire, you don't make it a season because you'd be too clever, but they'd be mean.
- [83:39]
Bill Simmons
I've gotten fired. Yeah.
- [83:41]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, you. 100%.
- [83:41]
Bill Simmons
Especially early 20s. I'm definitely getting fired, but I feel.
- [83:44]
Ryan Rosillo
Like these early 20s guys running team sites, they're like, they're your spirit animal. The funny thing is almost like you're getting mad at yourself.
- [83:54]
Bill Simmons
They. They retweeted. What was it?
- [83:57]
Ryan Rosillo
A shams on McAfee. Yeah. Where he was an absurd. It was an absurd rationale. That's the thing. He's Shams. Knows way more info than us both put together. But it's like a Hall of Famer.
- [84:08]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. It's like, okay, fine, what if he does become a Hall of Famer? It's still a dumb trade. You still gave up too much to get Derek Queen.
- [84:19]
Ryan Rosillo
It was like, yeah, what if he's a Hall of Famer? And the Pelicans feeds like, yeah, fuck off, ringer. That's not what they said. They were like, this take won't get you a podcast on the Ringer, but was, you know, a pretty clear, directed fuck you.
- [84:32]
Bill Simmons
I love it.
- [84:33]
Ryan Rosillo
And I just. I retweeted it immediately. I love it down there. I love it down there. You know, this hurts. It's a tough segment for me to do.
- [84:40]
Bill Simmons
What's funny is I was looking at their roster and I do kind of. I kind of like all the pieces and they make zero sense together. Like, you actually look at all the things they have and it's like, I don't know what this is. It's like, it's almost like a team you would put together in 2K. Like, I guess Jordan Hawkins was probably fired up for five seconds after they traded McCollum. Right. Like, if you're Trey Murphy, how are you feeling right now?
- [85:07]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, thank God he's not from, like, Russia, you know, he's from. He's from North Carolina. So, you know, like, hopefully that's close enough to the. The DMV to keep him aligned with some of the recent decisions.
- [85:26]
Bill Simmons
Well, what's weird is the team they're putting together as a team you'd put together if you didn't care about next season. And you actually secretly wanted a really high lottery pick. Just this whole weird collection of assets. But they don't seem to think that way at all. They seem to feel like we're going to be good next year.
- [85:43]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah.
- [85:44]
Bill Simmons
And it's like they haven't noticed what conference they're in or that the talent of all the other teams. And also how unrealistic it would be to have a good team with the point guards they have and with Murray coming back from this injury and with how unreliable Zion is. And it's just like, you'll be kind of fun to watch on league pass, but you're. You're not going to be good next year. Like, they can't actually think that. Right.
- [86:10]
Ryan Rosillo
The overriding message is we're going to be aggressive. It's like, all right, well done.
- [86:15]
Bill Simmons
You certainly were aggressive. Mission accomplished. Yeah. You did it. You pulled it off. A couple other things. I was going to do the July desperation tears with you, but let's take one more break and then we'll do that. This episode is brought to you by Vrbo Private Vacation Rentals. With Vrbo, you can save over $200 on select homes when you stay for a week or more. Say you wanted to go catch a few baseball games in Boston. Take some time off work, fly into Beantown, watch the Sox play. After that, you can do anything. Go book a VRBO in Cape Cod for a week. The world is your oyster or lobster roll or clam chowder. Really. If it has shells, gills, and is indigenous to the Atlantic. It's your edible metaphor of choice. They're crustacean. Crazy down there. And guess what? Since you stayed longer than a week, you saved over $200. You know what that means? More shellfish. I love shellfish. Hope you're not allergic. Next vacation, stay longer and save. Make it a vrbo. This episode is brought to you by Viori. Look, I'm not a big let's hype up workout clothes guy, but Viori, I gotta say, total game changer. Been wearing a lot. If you see me power walking around Los Angeles, probably gonna see me wearing some Vuori Sunday performance joggers that they have. It's made with four way performance stretch fabric, one of the most comfortable things you own. You will wear them everywhere, I promise. All you have to do is go to viori.com Simmons and you get 20% off your first purchase with Viori. V-U-O-R-I.com Simmons enjoy. Free shipping on all US orders over $75 plus free returns. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. All right, July desperation tears.
- [88:01]
Ryan Rosillo
Is this a real thing?
- [88:05]
Bill Simmons
I think Milwaukee. Would you have them one with how do we make this roster better? Better? I don't believe it. I still don't believe any of the honest stuff about he's undecided. Like, I think he's going to be back in Milwaukee. But I also think there's pressure on them to have a good roster. They're bringing back body Bobby Portis, but it's a little bit of make or Breaky, I think, for Giannis and the Bucks this season. If we're not going to be a contender within this season, now you have to really reevaluate. So I would put them number one on my desperation tears for we have to get better right now. Is there anybody you would put ahead of them as the number one desperation team?
- [88:45]
Ryan Rosillo
You're treating this like the 25 draft, though, like Cooper's in his own tier. Because if you're telling me Milwaukee's in their only tier.
- [88:52]
Bill Simmons
No, I have them number one.
- [88:53]
Ryan Rosillo
I had a couple other possibilities in this conversation with Milwaukee. Right.
- [88:57]
Bill Simmons
Had them down as well. I had Phoenix because of this Beal situation that they just. What do you do? You can't buy him out. That would be idiotic. Do you hope he's going to be better? You can't trade him. Do you bury him? You'd be like, you know what? You're just not going to play basketball anymore. We're not going to play.
- [89:24]
Ryan Rosillo
You getting ready for the road trip? We have you in B21 Southwest.
- [89:32]
Bill Simmons
We have you in a room with two double beds. So I don't know what they.
- [89:37]
Ryan Rosillo
They probably just suck it up this year and then it's an expiring contract. Even though it's $57 million, but he.
- [89:43]
Bill Simmons
Still has the no trade clause.
- [89:45]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I know, but it's an expiring.
- [89:46]
Bill Simmons
Contract that you can't move. I think the Lakers are in there from a desperation standpoint on getting some sort of person that makes them feel different than they were last year. I'm putting Sacramento in here because I think they're just at no man's land and they've been. And they're somehow back to who they were for the entire 2010s, and they just have this weird team that doesn't make sense. And are they capable of anything? Like, Zach did his little thing for us yesterday and he was talking about didn't think Jalen Brown was going to get traded, but he was like, you know, that Sacramento is a team. I would watch for that. There is this team every summer that's just like, fuck it. It makes some crazy trade. And I think that would be my number one draft pick for that category. But would you put them in a desperation tier or no?
- [90:38]
Ryan Rosillo
I don't know. They changed management again, even though I think Monty McNair did a really good job there. But now you're paying $90 million to Zach Levine and Sabonis. I know.
- [90:51]
Bill Simmons
I like that plan.
- [90:52]
Ryan Rosillo
No, I mean, I know I could get dumped on for being like, look, they traded Halliburton for Sabonis. Although the Halliburton, Sabonis, you know, that was like a 1200 page book. It was like, oh, my God, this is the worst. Like, hey, look at this. Maybe good for both teams. Oh, my God, like, look at Sabonus. I mean, Sacramento's happy. Yeah. And then it's like, oh, disaster. But Sacramento was judged based on Sacramento's history. And considering their history, I felt like that was actually like a really nice, stable, competitive run. They're in that Game seven with the warriors and they smoke them to play in. And, you know, nobody was, like, looking at them going, can they make some noise here? As they flirted with playoff seating. But for that organization, like, that was a real improvement. And so now you look at it and you're like, man, this got bleak quick. I just don't like paying those guys that much. I guess DeRozan's the asset. He's 36 years old and he's, you know, look, his number at 25 million is totally fine. It seems like he's just going to age really well. I remember the Bulls doing the first deal with him. Bringing him in years and years ago was like, man, that was a lot for DeRozan. And it just seems like this guy, the way he plays, like he still could bring something to a team. But what. What would be. What's like a realistic tier of player based on the. I mean, unless you want to start talking about Keegan or Devin Carter having a market, you know, not that teams wouldn't trade for Keegan like he's. But you got to pay him after next year.
- [92:16]
Bill Simmons
I don't think the Celtics are trading Jalen, and I don't want to, but Zach did make me wonder, like, what kind of Sacramento crazy trade was sitting there? Like, how crazy would they get? Cause we've seen them do it before. I hope it doesn't happen.
- [92:30]
Ryan Rosillo
I. I would do Jalen Brown for Trey Murphy.
- [92:35]
Bill Simmons
So I did look at.
- [92:37]
Ryan Rosillo
I know that doesn't work, but.
- [92:39]
Bill Simmons
No, you'd have to. There'd have to be a third team. There'd have to be a third team where I think Jalen goes to a third team and Trey Murphy would be. And the Celtics would cut salary. There's ways to figure that out. But I do think when they lopped off the $28 million, that kind of ended the Jalen any sort of entertaining a phone call. I think that they. They already got to their objective. I'm going to put Miami in the desperation tiers. We can figure out the tiers after I go through all the teams. I don't know. I said this a couple of days ago. I just don't know what Miami. What are they. What are they trying to do? Like, even if they get commingo, which I think is a good idea, and I like Kaminga, I like their draft pick. I liked it. They got at 20 on third on Wednesday night, but I still don't know, like, they're going to pay Hero, I guess, a ton of money, which now when you're seeing some of the other money going, it's like, is he. See. Should he be making $15 million a year more than Julius Randle? I don't think he should. I just don't know what's going on with that team. Do you have any handle on it?
- [93:46]
Ryan Rosillo
Better hang Sacramento.
- [93:49]
Bill Simmons
Oh, great. Hang bad hang.
- [93:51]
Ryan Rosillo
No, I'm just saying, like, are they Sacramento in a more desirable NBA city?
- [94:00]
Bill Simmons
That's interesting. So if you did it, if you did a draft of. Let's draft guys from Miami and Sacramento. Bam goes first.
- [94:09]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, Bam goes first.
- [94:10]
Bill Simmons
Sabona second.
- [94:17]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I. I think. But Sabonis is like, you know, I think it's pretty clear against certain matchups in the playoffs. It's probably not going to go second, though, over Tyler Herro.
- [94:28]
Bill Simmons
Hero's third. Who's fourth?
- [94:31]
Ryan Rosillo
DeRozan's got to be fourth, right?
- [94:34]
Bill Simmons
You wouldn't have LaVine over DeRozan.
- [94:38]
Ryan Rosillo
It's me.
- [94:41]
Bill Simmons
Sorry, I forgot who was asking.
- [94:43]
Ryan Rosillo
Like, Pell Larson. You'd be like, zach Levine's still on the board. Rosillo be like, yeah, I'm aware.
- [94:48]
Bill Simmons
All right, so we'll go. We'll go. Rose, the Rose and Levine. Four, five. And then who's the next guy in Miami you would have.
- [95:00]
Ryan Rosillo
I love Jovic, but, I mean, nobody should like him that much.
- [95:04]
Bill Simmons
So did Miami. They wouldn't include him in the Durant deal. I didn't think Jovic was Good. Last year, I don't. The times I watched Miami, I just felt like I didn't really see it. Maybe it's. Maybe it's lurking under there somewhere.
- [95:16]
Ryan Rosillo
No, I mean, look, I. There's guys I still hold out hope for. I mean, we spent probably too long talking about LA Ravian, as I was doing. I was like, this could also be a huge mistake. Maybe if Lavia stays in Sacramento, he goes higher in this draft. Malik Monk's got to go before Rosier. Does he go before Davion Mitchell? Yes, Keegan goes before Davion Mitchell.
- [95:38]
Bill Simmons
Oh, no.
- [95:42]
Ryan Rosillo
You know, and then it's like we were doing this two years ago with Haz. He goes a lot higher. I don't know what, what, I mean, they, they were like done with him.
- [95:52]
Bill Simmons
He couldn't make a three last year.
- [95:55]
Ryan Rosillo
Couldn't make one in college. And that's why he lasted so long in the draft too. Then he started just being good.
- [96:00]
Bill Simmons
And so Miami, Miami is. Is higher end Sacramento.
- [96:05]
Ryan Rosillo
I'm too online. Let's start there. Not news to anybody. But what happened is. And I ended up like getting too much of it. But I always think it's funny when people are on social media and be like, how come I keep getting these posts? And it's like, like, well, that's the danger of the for you thread as opposed to the one that you're following. You dip your toes over in the for you and then you start hate watching stuff. And then next thing you know, you're watching high school fights for half an hour and you're like, I don't feel like a good person right now.
- [96:30]
Bill Simmons
I do.
- [96:30]
Ryan Rosillo
And by the way, I don't watch them anymore. It just got to me. It bothered me. Was worried about the future of society. But people fought in high schools. I mean, you ever see Greece? I mean, so this isn't new. Anyway, so back when there was the Embiid Jokic thing, I couldn't stop. Like, I would just hate read every Sixers, like, guy that had, you know, a few thousand followers. And it was just always like insane MB arguments against Jokic. And I just couldn't get enough of it. And then all of a sudden, my feed was just Sixer stuff constantly. So I finally was able to wean myself off of it years ago, and I was all in on this Heat thing. Just every guy with a couple thousand followers with a little bit of a Heat page. And again, I still think it's all teenagers, but if there was ever like a nationwide need for editors that's the problem, is nobody has an editor anymore. I could probably use one a little bit more often. The number of Heat trades that were so preposterous and were just so fucking terrible, where the Heat were never giving up anything in all of them. And then it was always like, Hey, 72 hours to rant. 48 hours to rant. Like, hey, we're were like a day away. Durant thing's going to happen in a couple hours. And it just was like, guys kept doing it over and over again. Source all this stuff. Durant, Durant, Durant. Never happens. And clearly they didn't even really want them that much. They must just not have wanted them nearly as much as, you know, maybe Phoenix was.
- [97:54]
Bill Simmons
How about this? Never wanted them in the first place.
- [97:56]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, right. So you're. You're sitting here and looking at all of these options, and it's the reason I compare it to Sacramento. It's just there's not a lot here to get you excited. If you're like, let's. Let's do a deal. Unless it's Wiggins. But Wiggins. I mean, Wiggins still has a player option next year for $30 million.
- [98:16]
Bill Simmons
The other problem is their 2027 first goes to Charlotte. So it can't be like, blow it up, rebuild, because you don't have your first a year from now. So there are no.
- [98:27]
Ryan Rosillo
I think Riley at this stage of his life is going to go, all right, reset button time.
- [98:33]
Bill Simmons
Wouldn't you say he's more in the stage of let's get a guy and pay as many assets as we possibly can. Just try to be better right now.
- [98:43]
Ryan Rosillo
That's what I would have thought. The Durant thing would've made sense.
- [98:46]
Bill Simmons
Do you think there's Lori Marketin. I'm sidetracking now, but do you think there's Lori marketing and trade possibilities now? Yeah, that's been another thing floating around right now. What's your favorite Lori marketing team?
- [98:59]
Ryan Rosillo
San Antonio had that as well.
- [99:02]
Bill Simmons
Vasel and Barnes.
- [99:04]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's got to be some sort of enticing pick there. And Ange is probably just going to. You know, that's another thing with Ang is he's just going to go, I'm not like, you don't think you're giving me the extra pick.
- [99:19]
Bill Simmons
We figured out the Ace Bailey thing a week ago.
- [99:22]
Ryan Rosillo
Was that a we thing?
- [99:23]
Bill Simmons
It was a you thing. I signed on, I jumped in the car, in the passenger seat. We talked it through. We did his pedigree. We had a Whole thing. It was great.
- [99:32]
Ryan Rosillo
It was good. It was really good. And then you talked about his high school pedigree. So it was great.
- [99:37]
Bill Simmons
And now Ace is super happy to be there. It all worked out great. Is there a James Harden and Derrick Jones for Zach Lavine? Anything that excites you?
- [99:51]
Ryan Rosillo
No. I don't know that you could have presented anything that'd be less excited about.
- [99:54]
Bill Simmons
Just for those that, like, as a trade.
- [99:58]
Ryan Rosillo
What, what was the point of that?
- [100:00]
Bill Simmons
I just don't think the. I don't think the Clippers are going to roll into October with the exact same team. I'm just not convinced.
- [100:07]
Ryan Rosillo
Maybe not. But like, hey, how about me sticking up for Harden? I think you're a little dismissive of just the comfort of, hey, look, it's a little more expensive. We probably could have played Harbaugh. He made all NBA last year. He's probably going to play a ton of games. He doesn't even need to be in great shape. He's going to put up numbers and it helps us, you know, at least, like have something that we can depend on because he's still better than a lot of the players out there. And we'll just do that and give him a little bit of a bump and then whatever happens, we can figure this out in 26. Like, don't you think? I mean, it's not like they give him a four year contract.
- [100:46]
Bill Simmons
Can I have a counter?
- [100:47]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, I want the counter.
- [100:49]
Bill Simmons
All right, so let's say I'm thinking of one of your friends that I met, Timmy Walsh. You guys drive cross country, you and Timmy Walsh?
- [100:59]
Ryan Rosillo
We thought about doing it, yeah.
- [101:02]
Bill Simmons
Gets to Arizona and something horrible happens. Oh, like he gets in, I don't know, some sort of road rage incident or like just a bad driver. By the time you get Arizona, you're like, I'm never doing this again with this guy. I'm never, never going cross country with him. Yeah, I think game seven was that bad for Harden.
- [101:24]
Ryan Rosillo
What are you talking about? He's not even phased by these. He's got a million.
- [101:27]
Bill Simmons
I'm not saying he's phased by these. I'm saying if you're the Clippers and your goal is to win the title, this is all Steve Ballmer wants. He built this fucking wall that they, they genuinely. And I think they're right. Felix swung three games. They studied all the fan behavior in the wall and flew those people out to Denver. Like, they're all in. They're spending every dollar they possibly can. And after watching Harden in game Seven. I just refuse to believe with this whatever window they have left with Kawhi, that they're like, well, maybe it'll be different this year. They're not getting in the car with him again, just like in my Timmy Walsh example. I just want to shout out Timmy Walsh, one of my favorite conspiracy people. I just don't think they want to get in the car with him for another road trip because they know what's going to happen when they get to Arizona.
- [102:15]
Ryan Rosillo
I don't think they care. They clearly don't care. It's a smart front office. They know everything that you just said. And I don't think they thought they were going to tax him because of his history in those huge spots. Because the value over asset that they're.
- [102:30]
Bill Simmons
They're. Whatever he's in, they now have him under contract. But this allows them to potentially do.
- [102:35]
Ryan Rosillo
Something right instead of just.
- [102:37]
Bill Simmons
That's my take, right?
- [102:38]
Ryan Rosillo
Asset management, which is a lot of what we've seen over the last couple of days. It's like, oh, that number seems a little higher. Like, that was kind of my overriding thing. I know I'm repeating myself from the very top of the podcast, but, like, there were multiple examples of. They probably could have said, fine, cool. Go to free agency. You're never getting anything north of this. The agent relationships, the history here, and then the fear of, okay, but now if I lose this piece and ownership is like, hey, cool. Like, our. Our payroll's lower. I mean, Ballmer would never do that to them, but it's just, well, we can't just let a bunch of these stuff. We can't just let stuff walk and play hardball with everybody. And then if there's actually something available in November, December, January, February. Now we don't even have any of those pieces. So, yeah, maybe it is as simple as an asset management with just the one year. But I do think that you're overlooking a little bit of the he. Just from October until April, like, Harden's probably going to be pretty good for us.
- [103:30]
Bill Simmons
I am so happy. I just got you to defend James Harden for, like, three minutes.
- [103:34]
Ryan Rosillo
I've done it twice in my life and that was the second time. Felt good. What about Westbrook? Where's he going?
- [103:44]
Bill Simmons
Who's left? Why? You have a team?
- [103:50]
Ryan Rosillo
I can't find one. I mean, I imagine it'll be one.
- [103:52]
Bill Simmons
But I can't find one either.
- [103:55]
Ryan Rosillo
Does Brooklyn just say, fuck it for a year?
- [103:58]
Bill Simmons
Is there a world where Reeves gets traded into Atlanta's $25 million trade exception for players and assets.
- [104:07]
Ryan Rosillo
But it has to be one player that makes a huge difference.
- [104:13]
Bill Simmons
Would you do a congu and some picks for Reeves? Would you have a meeting.
- [104:20]
Ryan Rosillo
Going? Hey, we got Porzingis and let's keep our fingers crossed.
- [104:25]
Bill Simmons
And Reaves is a better player than Akongwu.
- [104:28]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, he's a better player than a.
- [104:29]
Bill Simmons
He gives us a second creator than with Trey. We might be able to patch together the center position. We might be able to make a real run here. I don't know. I just. It was the only thing I can think of with the Lakers where to get a center. I think they would have to. That's the only thing that made sense to me. And I have a. By the way, please, anyone listening, please don't aggregate these trades and say, please do whatever. I'm just throwing dumb shit out.
- [105:01]
Ryan Rosillo
Because.
- [105:02]
Bill Simmons
I had a jalen one that I'm just not going to do because I don't want it to become like one that I really liked. I'm just going to tell you offline. You know what? I'm depriving. I'm depriving the people for the pod.
- [105:11]
Ryan Rosillo
I hope that gets aggregated. Simmons doesn't tell Rosillo Jaylen Brown trade in fear of aggregation.
- [105:17]
Bill Simmons
Simmons tells Rosillo Jaylen Brown trade after podcast. And then I was thinking of available, available trade guys. Would you have George last or Beal last right now.
- [105:33]
Ryan Rosillo
Oh, Beal.
- [105:34]
Bill Simmons
So Beal's still number one. He's been number one for two years now.
- [105:38]
Ryan Rosillo
That should be some sort of Wonderlic, like, NBA thing. Be like, here's a Hypothetical. You make $50 million a year, but the team hates you and they never play you, and you have a no trade clause. If that happened to you for two years and you still had like a year left in your contract, what would you want? And if you answered like, I'd be totally fine never playing and keeping all my money, it's like, yeah, but you're still going to keep your money. Like, would you eventually get sick of this? Would there be some competitive part of you that was like, hey, I'm a pretty talented player and I don't want to go out like this. And if the guy at the combine answers, no, I'm totally fine, it'd be the Beal answer and be like, okay, we got to take this guy off the board.
- [106:22]
Bill Simmons
We've seen some people in the sports media world check out like that.
- [106:28]
Ryan Rosillo
Oh, yes. I love when it happens. I love getting to see it. I get so jealous. Is it Tougher for you and I, I think, to check out. Like, I've wanted to check out for years.
- [106:41]
Bill Simmons
What's your checkout date? Like, age 58. Yeah. You know, whatever it is, that one last deal where you could just completely check out.
- [106:53]
Ryan Rosillo
That'd be fun. I don't. I just need more of a team. Like, the anchors get to check out. It's awesome because the scripts can be written, the segments are produced. They'll even have people that produce the questions for them. Be like, hey, we have this person. Like, you know, just make sure you ask that. You know, Alex Bregman's, you know, nine for his last 18, you know, so I think there's, you know, we're trying to carry these podcasts on our own. It's a little tougher. Like, I think it'd be pretty obvious if you start to realize, because this guy waking up thinking 15 minutes before he does these. Now.
- [107:29]
Bill Simmons
Can I get. Can I ask for day, though?
- [107:31]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah.
- [107:31]
Bill Simmons
Can I ask you for your take on the dumb team hierarchy now? Because I mentioned the dump teams during the week on the draft, and I think it's Sacramento, New Orleans, Brooklyn, and Chicago in some order right now. That would be my four. Is there anybody I'm omitting for you? And I think that the qualifier is you have to be from afar going, what the fuck are those guys doing? Because Chicago is a good example. I don't know what that Lonzo ball as a Kokoro trade was like. I just. That was one of those where you're just like, I just don't understand what just happened. You already have Patrick Williams. Why do you want Isaac Okoro?
- [108:11]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, they're different in. In theory because Okoro, like, there's some shooting numbers. Will people be like, hey. And you're like, yeah, but that's not really. He's. That he's not really a shooter. There's some defensive metrics per 100. Like, they actually show up pretty good what he brings.
- [108:25]
Bill Simmons
So you think they can play them together?
- [108:27]
Ryan Rosillo
No, no. But I can't. But I can't. I'm saying, like, Okoro, just by himself. There's a little bit of a discussion at 10 or $11 million, but Cleveland.
- [108:37]
Bill Simmons
But not when you have Patrick Williams.
- [108:38]
Ryan Rosillo
No. And when you're getting rid of Lonzo, where you're like, all right, this is an expiring $10 million deal, and we're bringing back a couple coral for a similar number, but then he's 11.8 next year. I don't.
- [108:49]
Bill Simmons
I. Everyone, I Don't know what they're doing. Lonzo, how many? I read five stories last year about, like, this is the best story in sports. Everybody loves Lonzo. Amazing teammate. I thought he was really fun there. For. Oh, for. Yeah, for the teams. So that's our. That's our five right now. I remember a GM told me a long time ago, I just need seven of these teams, and as long as we always have seven, I'll be fine. I'll always have somebody. So right now, it seems like we have five. Maybe there's more coming. It's sad that the Lakers aren't on this list anymore. All right. That's really all I have, except I took Ben to UFC in Vegas yesterday.
- [109:35]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, tell us about it. Awesome fight, huh? Main card.
- [109:39]
Bill Simmons
To Pori is like, I don't. I just don't know. I'm too casual of a UFC fan to put him against other guys from the past, but that guy's just an animal. He's just. Now he's still undefeated. I don't. He moved up in weight, which sometimes can go one way or the other more in boxing than ufc, but, I mean, wow. It just. He just has it, man. You know, the guy is at the final level when they have the knockout and they're not phased at all by it. They just kind of walk over and like, they want to, like, wave to Dana White. Like, they just knock somebody out that they'd been training to fight for three months, and it's like they went and got a latte. That's when, you know, it's like, something really crazy. But he's. He's. I think he's the biggest star they have right now. They haven't been able to blow him up as a star. Like, he's not anywhere remotely close to Conor domestically, internationally, maybe, but I think he's the guy right now.
- [110:39]
Ryan Rosillo
How into it is Ben?
- [110:42]
Bill Simmons
He was really bummed out last night because he likes Charles. Him and his friend Enzo really took it hard. They just like him. They didn't want to see him. They had slim expectations. They didn't want to see what happened. Happened where he just got fucking his clock cleaned. They were not happy. But that we have a new Simmons family, has a new guy, though.
- [111:08]
Ryan Rosillo
Okay.
- [111:08]
Bill Simmons
Joshua Van just won us over completely. Just an incredible performance by him. Did you see that fight? It was the first fight. Did you see it last night?
- [111:16]
Ryan Rosillo
No, I didn't. I. I know. I took the boat out. Oh, yeah. Took the boat out late. And then you'll. I don't know if you'd be proud or disappointed. I actually think you're gonna be disappointed. But I was like, hey, lighter schedule, not a ton of prep. You're on this. Like, if I can go out for a little bit. Yeah, you know. Cause I won't drink on the boat. Cause I gotta dock that thing. I just don't wanna. I don't wanna ever have.
- [111:41]
Bill Simmons
Like, there's been one or two bad incidents over the years with boats and alcohol that I've read about.
- [111:47]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, right. So you're kind of like, oh, you know. But then I get. So Even though I've done it a bunch of times now, I'm. I never want to be comfortable enough, you know, where somebody's like, oh, well, hey, it doesn't matter, you know, because I know. Look, I'm. I'm not trying to act like some fucking prude about how I think it's.
- [112:02]
Bill Simmons
It's the right way to think.
- [112:03]
Ryan Rosillo
Right? Right. But anyway, so I'm like, okay, I'm running home and I get an invite. And I was like, all right, you don't, don't even give yourself a chance to shut down. Don't even give yourself a chance. Like, you have to go out. You have to go out tonight. And I changed, I ran the shower, I looked at my bed and I went, nope. Like, the window was three minutes. There was like a three minute window where I was like, I'm doing it. I'm going out. I'm going out.
- [112:34]
Bill Simmons
That's an official sign. You're moving in a different phase of life.
- [112:37]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah, but that's been happening a lot. Like, there's a lot of depending on how the week works out because I don't go out very often. But they'll still be like, don't become a guy who just never, ever does it. And I'll get up and, like, my day will be going great. And I'm like, you know what? I'm. Great mood, whatever, whatever. And then you just know, like, hey, I ate. It's shutting down. I want to work out tomorrow. Whatever. I don't care. I'm not missing anything. And then I just. I had this like, peak energy, like, spike, where I just went, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this, like, fight through this thing. And then, you know, you got that brine Anya day at sea. And it, it takes it out of you, you know, My stepdad going, my.
- [113:19]
Bill Simmons
Stepdad'S big boat guy. It's a. It's a lot of work. It's. It's really, like, separates the men from the boys in the sense of. It's not just like getting a car. Like, you really. If you're gonna do it, you gotta do it. That is a clean. You gotta. There's just some real thought and care. It's like adopting. Adopting a dog. Like, if you adopt the dog, it's like, I adopt the dog. It's like, okay, your life's gonna be different now. This dog's always gonna be around. You're always gonna have to figure out what to do with it. The boat is kind of like the dog.
- [113:51]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. At least I can. I don't feel bad leaving it.
- [113:54]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [113:54]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. Where I can.
- [113:55]
Bill Simmons
You don't have to be like, I'm going away. Somebody's gotta watch my dog. But you still have to put in this extra time into it.
- [114:02]
Ryan Rosillo
Right.
- [114:02]
Bill Simmons
That I watched people realize when they don't get a. Until they get a boat.
- [114:06]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. I think if it's. If it's on your. Like you have a lake or something, or the people down in Newport beach, where they have docks in the backyard.
- [114:13]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, whatever.
- [114:14]
Ryan Rosillo
Right. That's sick. You know, you don't have to hose it down immediately, although it would be nice. You know, you don't want that salt to build. But when you have to go into Marina and, you know, the check in and all that kind of stuff and then get the thing untied. And I'm. I did it by myself, too. So there's always a little extra of just being, like, on it, on it, on it every time you have to do it. So then I got really artsy, though. Instead of watching fights, I watch Casablanca.
- [114:38]
Bill Simmons
Really?
- [114:38]
Ryan Rosillo
Are you guys doing that? The rewatchables? Because I'm ready.
- [114:41]
Bill Simmons
You're ready for Casablanca?
- [114:43]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. It's considered the greatest screenplay ever written.
- [114:47]
Bill Simmons
Listen, that sounds like an amazing idea for the summer for us. It's on the list. It's funny, it kind of lives on now in When Harry Met Sally because it has, like, these two big parts of When Harry Met Sally for.
- [115:00]
Ryan Rosillo
So.
- [115:00]
Bill Simmons
For like, the under 40 generation. Unless you, you know, your parents, like, force you to watch it or tell you to watch it or whatever. It came out in, what was it? 1942.
- [115:11]
Ryan Rosillo
Great recall. 1943.
- [115:14]
Bill Simmons
1943. So that's now 83 years ago. Like, think how fucking long that is.
- [115:20]
Ryan Rosillo
Right.
- [115:21]
Bill Simmons
And so Look, Jaws is 50 years old now.
- [115:24]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. Shout out to the Vineyard. Speaking of boats.
- [115:28]
Bill Simmons
Oh, you know what?
- [115:29]
Ryan Rosillo
It's a big Jaws summer.
- [115:31]
Bill Simmons
I was gonna call you in for prestige TV because Amazon has the show set on Martha's vineyard. It's a YA show, but it's just my daughter was out in 20 minutes, so I didn't tell you about it. But, yeah, fully vineyard. Like, they went all in.
- [115:47]
Ryan Rosillo
Do you know the name of it? Because I forget where I was. It was kind of like one of those deals where you can't find the remote in a hotel room. So that means the channel's just not gonna be changed forever.
- [115:56]
Bill Simmons
And I'm looking as you're talking.
- [115:58]
Ryan Rosillo
There was this crime series that takes place on Martha's Vineyard. It's all shot in Canada, and I think even the actors are Canadian. But I think the true story behind it is that it's these fictional books where all of these things take place on Martha's Vineyard, because the author's father, father in law, uncle or something was actually a police chief in Egertown. So I could be sort of mauling this, but I don't know if it was the same thing. So I ended up watching. I never watched that kind of stuff, but I was like, all right, I got to see what happens here, you know?
- [116:29]
Bill Simmons
Well, my. My daughter's home right now, so I. I can't say I'm watching. Like, I'm not watching a ton of stuff. I can't. Oh, it's called We Were Liars.
- [116:39]
Ryan Rosillo
I have not seen that.
- [116:41]
Bill Simmons
You might want to give it a test run for the Martha's Vineyard footage.
- [116:46]
Ryan Rosillo
I will. No, I'm in. I'm totally in. But I would tell younger people that are listening about Casablanca, like, don't give it too hard of a time on the action scene at the end. And I think Bogart. I think that's an over, under a four. Four and a half. Here's looking at you kids like you might. I don't know if you get away with that today.
- [117:05]
Bill Simmons
Like, two of them. Yeah, yeah.
- [117:07]
Ryan Rosillo
You know, like Bruce Willis has said, you know, yippee ki yay, motherfucker five times in Die Hard.
- [117:15]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, they tacked it on in Die Hard 3. We just did that one. I do think about people like Bogart sometimes when I work on Rewatchables, and you think about how famous these people were. When we do movies from the 70s in Redford and Newman, and they were just so, so famous. And they still are famous because there's a lot of people. But then when you go way back and you go to Sir Lawrence Olivier, this is the reason I was thinking about it, because he's a marathon man. We did that One. And he's one of the most famous actors in the world, right? And he was married to Vivien Leigh, who was the lady in Gone with the Wind and was like, one great stage actor, was dead by like, 54. And I was thinking, like, Vivien Lee, probably one of the two, three biggest actresses for 20 years, right? No longer discussed, not in the mix in 20, 25. And any. There's no conversations. Like, there's some sort of shelf life for when you're just not discussed anymore, right? Ava Gardner, you go, like, I don't know what it is, like that Mariska Hargitay has this documentary now about Jane Mansfield, who probably not discussed unless there's documentary, but does make you think, like, all right, I'm going to die someday. And then everybody's going to forget who you were.
- [118:26]
Ryan Rosillo
Not you. They'll be a Hulu doc.
- [118:29]
Bill Simmons
They'll bring it, forget me. I'll be five years after.
- [118:31]
Ryan Rosillo
They'll be a doc. Chris Ryan's going to be old in a rocking chair and be like, he wasn't the easiest to get along with, but it was worth it.
- [118:38]
Bill Simmons
There've been a lot of people like, Bill was Bill, but they say my name twice. You know, Bill was Bill, like the Maynard Ramirez corollary. So Casablanca. That's your recommendation?
- [118:50]
Ryan Rosillo
And it is pretty cool, like, when you think about, all right, Bogart is this mysterious guy who's in occupied Africa, and yet there's the dueling, the Vichy, and you've got the Nazis, and he's kind of his own man. He's almost like this Han Solo type. And it's Bogart, who's not exactly the most dashing guy ever. And yet I was reading about him after the fact, because I was trying to figure out, like, if there's a biography that it was worth. I'm sure there's plenty of really good ones. But, like, for me to do a biography on somebody, I'm like, I don't really like doing that all that much anymore. But then the Duke, of all people, John Wayne, being like that, was the leading man that, like, I thought about when I pursued my career, like, to your point, like, you can say, hey, man, Bogart was really famous. And I remember, like, the first time I saw African Queen, it was like, you know, a movie my parents wouldn't turn off or something. When I was a really young kid, being like, this movie sucks. But then, even as a kid, I kept. Because, you know, we'd have any channels back then, it was just on tv. I think there were three channels. And even as a kid, I was like, man, this African queen's like kind of crazy. Like, this is a crazy movie. And he's so good at being the perfect. Like, you know, she would have never thought she'd be with him. You know, a lot of the standard kind of like rulemaking that you have in storytelling. And there is something to Casablanca that certainly, you know, holds up in the sense that it wasn't just this super simple, straightforward love story of will they or won't they? And with the backdrop of him owning his cafe and everything, it was just cool. I hadn't seen it in like forever. And so, yeah, it's funny how I.
- [120:25]
Bill Simmons
Wish I watched Sabrina a couple months ago with Audrey Hepburn.
- [120:31]
Ryan Rosillo
Right. That's the one they did on the Vineyard with Harrison Ford.
- [120:33]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, they redid it. Yeah. This was the original one.
- [120:36]
Ryan Rosillo
Tons of shout outs today.
- [120:39]
Bill Simmons
That movie is just when you watch it, like just through the context of now, but when they made it back then, it's kind of amazing. And just the premise of it, it's just like, great story. Two brothers. She was always where her family worked for this super rich family.
- [120:55]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah. But it worked.
- [120:56]
Bill Simmons
She always had a crush. She has had a crush on one of the brothers. He never realized it was it kind of cocktail.
- [121:02]
Ryan Rosillo
Right.
- [121:03]
Bill Simmons
She went away to and then came back a woman. And the brother didn't realize it was her and then loved her. But he was kind of a rube. It was like, I was like, this is. They fucking nailed it with this. Every piece of it is just really smart.
- [121:15]
Ryan Rosillo
It's gonna be a real art house summer over here. Because I watched Lawrence of Arabia a couple weeks ago.
- [121:20]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [121:21]
Ryan Rosillo
And you know, I don't know what's going on with me, but I was like, I'm just. Just going to start running through all of these like all time classics.
- [121:29]
Bill Simmons
Well, they became classics for a reason. You know, it's like why the Godfather and Jaws and movies like those movies are incredible. That's why they became classics.
- [121:38]
Ryan Rosillo
Peter o' Toole, though, laying on a.
- [121:41]
Bill Simmons
Little thick, dialed it up a little bit. Yeah.
- [121:45]
Ryan Rosillo
I wanted that era.
- [121:46]
Bill Simmons
The guys were very, very over the top.
- [121:48]
Ryan Rosillo
Well, there were a lot of theater guys, so I would love a Lawrence of Arabia rewatchables. I don't want to be on it. I want it to be UCR and fantasy. And I would love to hear just CR breaking down o' Toole's passion.
- [122:01]
Bill Simmons
Really going for it.
- [122:02]
Ryan Rosillo
Yeah.
- [122:04]
Bill Simmons
Well, I think we're doing. We did after Hours that's coming Monday. And then I think we're doing Jaws, too, ironically. Another vineyard shout out. That's the next one.
- [122:17]
Ryan Rosillo
The vineyard's on fire right now.
- [122:18]
Bill Simmons
You don't have any Jaws. Two thoughts.
- [122:26]
Ryan Rosillo
I don't drag.
- [122:29]
Bill Simmons
Just wouldn't do it. He wouldn't be in.
- [122:30]
Ryan Rosillo
Which was the terrible one?
- [122:32]
Bill Simmons
3 Jaws 3.
- [122:34]
Ryan Rosillo
It was 4.
- [122:36]
Bill Simmons
3D. 3 was 3D. It was Jaws 3D.
- [122:39]
Ryan Rosillo
That makes more sense.
- [122:40]
Bill Simmons
There's been two eras of movies when they got really excited about 3D that this is the next thing. Here we go, 3D. And then people were like, nah, this kind of sucks.
- [122:51]
Ryan Rosillo
They tried it again.
- [122:55]
Bill Simmons
We're wrapping up, so we're back next Sunday. Do you think? What do you think? The get to make one prediction for the biggest thing that will happen in the seven days before we see each other again. Just give me a team. You don't have to make a prediction. Don't say Boston, please.
- [123:13]
Ryan Rosillo
No, I don't. I don't. I'll say Spurs.
- [123:17]
Bill Simmons
I like it. It's a good one. All right. Good to see you, Rossila.
- [123:22]
Ryan Rosillo
See you.
- [123:23]
Bill Simmons
All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Priscilla. Thanks to Eduardo and Gahao as well. Don't forget new rewatchables coming tomorrow night after hours. And then you can watch all the all the stuff from this podcast and Bill Simmons YouTube channel. And I will see you at least once more this week. Probably Wednesday, but not sure the day yet. But you will see me one more time this week. See you then. Must be 21 plus in President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in President D.C. gambling problem. Call 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-887-897-777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling helpline ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York.