The NBA’s Danger Cycle, Plus Usyk Is Invincible, ‘Landman’ Can’t Lose, and Chalamet Will Win the Oscar With Chris Mannix and Chris Ryan

Summary

The Bill Simmons Podcast – Episode Summary

Episode Title: The NBA’s Danger Cycle, Plus Usyk Is Invincible, ‘Landman’ Can’t Lose, and Chalamet Will Win the Oscar
Release Date: December 18, 2024
Host: Bill Simmons (The Ringer)
Guests: Chris Mannix, Chris Ryan

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1. Introduction to the NBA’s Current State

Bill Simmons kicks off the episode by delving into the NBA Cup final, highlighting the Milwaukee Bucks' dominant performance over the Oklahoma City Thunder. He praises Giannis Antetokounmpo's exceptional season, noting his shift away from three-point shooting to focus more on inside play.

"They could get an assigned driver, you get upfront pricing and you get extra wait time included." – Bill Simmons [00:00]

2. Historical Analysis of the NBA’s Ups and Downs ("Unicorn" Moments)

Simmons provides an in-depth historical overview of the NBA, identifying five pivotal "unicorn" moments that reshaped the league. These include the 1969 Finals triumph by Bill Russell’s Celtics, the ABA-NBA merger in 1976, the emergence of Magic Johnson and Larry Bird in the 1980s, the Shaq-Kobe era in the early 2000s, and the Golden State Warriors’ dynasty from 2008 to 2019.

"Every time a unicorn moment, we're not even in the middle of one or we don't have one coming. Everybody thinks the NBA is in trouble, they're in danger, it's over. This is just the DNA of the league." – Bill Simmons [02:30]

3. Current NBA Issues and Future Outlook

Simmons discusses the contemporary challenges facing the NBA, including overreliance on aging stars like LeBron James, Stephen Curry, and Kevin Durant. He critiques the excessive focus on three-point shooting, the homogeneity of current playstyles, and the influx of foreign stars who haven't fully resonated with the American fanbase.

"They have, you know, 35 to 40 completely recognizable stars, whereas football might have 10. So it's not like this is a disaster, but this is what we do with the NBA." – Bill Simmons [05:10]

He emphasizes the need for a new transformative "unicorn" moment to rejuvenate the league, drawing parallels to historical cycles of perceived decline and resurgence.

4. Discussion on Jimmy Butler Trade Speculation

Joining Simmons is Chris Mannix, who provides insights into the buzz surrounding Jimmy Butler's potential trade to Miami Heat. They analyze Miami's roster dynamics, Butler's contract situation, and the challenges of integrating him into the Heat's system.

"Jimmy's not going to be on it. I think my question would be, Bill, is if like, like the draft capital move is, is probably the right way to go." – Chris Mannix [36:04]

Simmons expresses skepticism about Butler fitting seamlessly into Miami's lineup without significant roster adjustments.

5. Boxing Segment: Usyk vs. Fury Rematch

The conversation shifts to boxing, where Simmons and Mannix discuss the highly anticipated rematch between Oleksandr Usyk and Tyson Fury. Mannix praises Usyk's technical prowess and questions Fury's longevity and motivation, while Simmons highlights Usyk's strategic fighting style.

"I think Usyk is a generational great. You know, I think he's one of those rare guys that only come along once every 20, 25 years." – Chris Mannix [54:20]

They express concerns about the integrity of boxing judging and speculate on potential outcomes, favoring a decisive victory for Usyk.

6. Upcoming Boxing Supercard and Saudi Influence

Mannix lauds the upcoming supercard scheduled for February 22nd, emphasizing its unprecedented depth with seven high-profile fights. He credits Saudi involvement for elevating the event's scale and diversity, comparing it to the golden era of Don King-promoted events.

"This seems like the full culmination of that. This is one of the best boxing cards of all time." – Chris Mannix [65:33]

Simmons marvels at the scheduling and star power, noting the potential for significant viewership and fan engagement.

7. Pop Culture Segment

a. Timothee Chalamet’s Performance and Oscar Prospects

Bill Simmons and Chris Ryan transition to discussing Timothee Chalamet's portrayal of Bob Dylan in the upcoming biographical film. They commend Chalamet's unexpected depth and versatility, predicting a strong Oscar campaign.

"Chalamet a complete unknown." – Chris Mannix [73:02]
"I thought he's going to be an odds on Oscar favorite, if not like the prohibitive favorite." – Chris Ryan [74:10]

Simmons shares his excitement over Chalamet’s performance, suggesting it could redefine his acting career.

b. The TV Show 'Landman' – Critical Acclaim and Its Place in TV

The hosts laud the TV series 'Landman,' praising its blend of drama, humor, and compelling character development. They compare it to other successful shows like 'Yellowstone' and 'White Lotus,' highlighting its unique ability to engage a wide audience.

"This sixth episode was the best episode of the season. It was incredible. It's everything we want from a dumb TV show like this." – Bill Simmons [84:34]

Mannix appreciates the show's depth and the performances of actors like Billy Bob Thornton and Ali Larder, forecasting its rise as a major television phenomenon.

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Notable Quotes

• "Everyone loves to talk about ratings, even though the NBA just signed a $76 billion deal and the ratings don't ultimately really matter." – Bill Simmons [05:50]
• "Usyk would not make the same mistakes Jared Anderson made and stay within range of that right hand." – Chris Mannix [55:39]
• "This is the most I have liked Billy Bob literally in 20 plus years." – Chris Ryan [85:54]
• "Landman's like third. This is the greatest show of this decade." – Bill Simmons [84:34]

Conclusion

Bill Simmons concludes the episode with mutual praise for his guests and a recap of the engaging discussions on the NBA's cyclical challenges, the imminent boxing rematch, and the triumphs in pop culture. He anticipates future episodes to continue exploring these dynamic intersections of sports and entertainment.

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the episode, offering a clear and engaging overview for those who haven't tuned in.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

Coming up, talking NBA cup in the State of the NBA Boxing Landman Timothee Chalamet this is a great podcast. That's all next. This episode is brought to you by Uber Reserve. You know it's a game changer for travel. Booking my ride in advance to the airport with Uber Reserve Uber Reserve makes it easy to plan my whole trip. I just did this booking rides up to 90 days in advance to help squeeze the most out of traveling. Especially if you're doing odd hours, rush hours, like early in the morning, you gotta do it. Plus, with Uber Reserve, you'll get an assigned driver, you get upfront pricing and you get extra wait time included. So go ahead, plan like a pro. Reserve your Uber ride up to 90 days in advance. See app for details. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. State Farm helps you score an affordable price when you choose to bundle home and auto insurance with the personal price plan. Bundling home and auto, that's a pro move. Just another way you can save on your insurance needs. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can bundle and save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network where I put up a new Rewatchables. Last night Chris Ryan and I did the Gambler, a movie that came out 10 years ago with Mark Wahlberg. One of our favorite gambling movies. A really kind of deep fun movie to talk about and make fun of and also appreciate. So you can watch that on The Ringer Movies YouTube channel as well. Next week on the Rewatchables. I think from next week is the first week we are going to be video pod on Spotify for the Rewatchables so you can watch it on our YouTube channel Ringer Movies. But more importantly you could watch it on Spotify. As you're listening to it. You can just see our beautiful faces. So stay tuned for that on this podcast. I'm going to start at the top with some thoughts about the NBA cup, the final game and also the state of the NBA because it's been a big topic late. Man, I have some big picture thoughts about that. Chris Manix joined us to talk about just the Jimmy Butler trade buzz in Vegas and some other NBA topics and then really I had him on talk about boxing because we have a big card this weekend. My guy Usyk is Fighting Fury, the rematch. So we're going to talk about that and some of the big heavyweight fights coming up. And then, last but not least, Cris Ryan. We did a couple things in studio yesterday that I taped for this podcast. One is about Landman, which is my favorite TV show of the decade. Just hands down, succession really started last decade, so I could say my favorite new show of this decade. And then we talked about Timothee Chalamet and the Bob Dylan movie and Chalamet's chances to win an Oscar. What should he do next? And more importantly, why hasn't he come on my fucking podcast yet? So we're gonna hit all that first. Our friends from Pearl J. All right, I am taping this after the NBA Cup Final in Vegas. The Milwaukee Bucks, they destroyed the Oklahoma City Thunder, who could not hit a shot. It happens. They looked young. They looked a little nervous. They looked like a team of young guys from Oklahoma City who had just spent the last five days in Las Vegas. They looked like a team that didn't realize they were at the adult table where Giannis was sitting, who proceeded to unleash holy hell on them, which he's been doing basically for over a month now. I think the last 16 games, he's something like 34, 15 and 7. He doesn't shoot threes anymore, which I think, you know, not like he was jacking up 10 a game, but he was always shooting three. He would always kind of test it out, but now he's just like, I'm going to be early 2000. Shaq crossed with Spider man. And I think he's, as I'm recording this, he's plus 600 for MVP on FanDuel. And, you know, he's closed the gap with him and Jokic. As great as Jokic has been, Milwaukee seems like a real contender. OKC still seems like a contender. This is the league now. If you don't make threes, you know you're probably not going to win if you're shooting 35 to 50 threes a game. If they're not going in, you don't have a chance. Which ties into a bigger theme with what's going on with basketball right now. The last couple weeks have been peak people asking me what's going on with the NBA. And part of it is the ratings, because everyone loves to talk about ratings, even though the NBA just signed a $76 billion deal and the ratings don't ultimately really matter. It's an American thing more than a worldwide thing, because the league's Doing well globally. But when you look at big picture, what's going on with the league, you know, LeBron and Curry, they're old. They're making desperate changes. They just changed the All Star game again. They just did the NBA cup in Vegas. Too many foreign stars. That's another thing you keep hearing. The schedule's too long been saying that for 20 years. We can't find any under 30American superstars to carry the torch from LeBron and Curry. That's a valid thing. Too many threes, too many. Too much sameness in the game. Can't really counter that. Too woke. The league's too woke. It's driven off a lot of. A lot of possible fans. I'm not touching that one. It's an American problem, and it's not a worldwide problem, because again, worldwide, internationally, the league is doing really well, but it's an American problem. And yet the franchise values are the highest it's ever been. They just got the highest meteorite steal they've ever gotten. They have, I would say, 35 to 40 completely recognizable stars, whereas football might have 10. So it's not like this is a disaster, but this is what we do with the NBA. We love to panic. We love to talk about how things are bad. And it's a little like what SNL is like, where everybody's like, SNL's dead. SNL's done. And then guess what? SNL is going to have its 50th year. This is an American problem, and this is eight decades of a recurring theme that I would call the NBA is in danger that we're now living through again in December 2024. I want to go backwards. I want to go through eight decades of NBA history to show that for the most part, this is a league that's kind of always a little bit in danger. Like football, dating back to the John Unitis beating the Giants in the late 50s, the greatest game ever played to that point. Football has always been solid. 50s, 60s, 70s, Super bowl, the merger. It's just been going and going. The only time I ever remember people even wondering what the future of football was going to be like. And I was one of the ones wondering was the early 2010s with concussions. Goodell, they had a bunch of stuff with Gates after it. It seemed like they had to change the way that football was being played because it was too violent. And there was a moment there was like, where's football? Are you going to let your sons play football? Play football? Are we going to be watching this in 20 years. And guess what? Covid happened, and everybody was like, you know what? I love football. And now football feels like it's the biggest it's ever been. If you're talking about basketball, it's always been on the line of being in danger. So you go back to the 40s and 50s, the first 15 years of the league. The league. By the time we got to 1954, the league was in complete chaos. The pace was too slow. There was no shot clock. People were just fouling each other, trying to dribble at the clock. George Mikan was dominating everything, and the league kind of sucked. And then they came up with a shot clock that fixed some of it. It was still really violent. It was a lot like hockey back then. There wasn't nearly enough scoring. They had a big betting scandal. That was a big thing. There were barely any black players kind of a problem. All the best black players were playing for the Harlem Globetrotters, other places, because they wouldn't let them in the league. And when you think back to where the NBA was, even in the mid-50s when Russell showed up, it was regional. Everything was in the east coast or, like the, you know, like the Pennsylvania area, the fringes of the Midwest. There were no west coast teams. And the NFL was bigger. College football and college basketball were bigger. Baseball was bigger. Boxing, horse racing, name a sport, was probably dead even with hockey. Get to the 60s. Russell's in there. We start finally getting some black stars. We get Elgin Baylor, we get Oscar, we get Wilt Chamberlain. And the 60s becomes Wilt versus Russell. Celtics dominance. It's still not going awesome. We still don't have a definitive the league is fine moment. And at the same time, this is one of the most tumultuous decades in American history. There's a whole civil rights battle happening. There's assassinations all over the place. And, you know, a league that's becoming a mostly black league had a pretty strange fit among all of that, especially as Russell is becoming one of the dominant athletes we've ever had and a huge spokesman, along with Ali and Jim Brown and some others. So the league is gaining steam from an impact standpoint, but it still hasn't hit the popular piece yet. And then we have our first unicorn situation. There's five unicorn situations total. And I want you to remember this because we're going to tie it back in at the end. So this first unicorn situation, the 1969 Finals, which turned out to be Russell's last NBA Finals, he's going for his 11th title. They're underdogs against the Lakers. We finally have a California team. We have Jerry west and Wilt Chamberlain and Elgin Baylor. And the Lakers are favored to win game seven. 08 Russell beats them. And it turns out to be like the first great modern NBA Finals game that we had the next year the Knicks. Everyone in New York is like so delighted. The Knicks are finally good at basketball. Like the Celtics are gone, they have a chance to win the title. 1970 Finals Willis gets hurt, comes back. Game 7 becomes one of the most famous games in NBA history. Also will kind of chokes. So we have that Kareem enters the league that same year and then in 1971 he wins the title. He's the most ballyhooed college player to that point to somebody that's considered to be a successor to Russell and Wilt. So he's in the league. And then the next year, 71, 72, the Lakers win 33 straight. Jerry west finally wins the title. So you have this four year unicorn run all these crazy events and it propels the league up a level. And all of a sudden now the NBA is looking really good. Well, we have to go back to the danger zone again. From 1973 to 1976 they over expand. They make the classic mistake of they just add too many teams. The ABA has formed and is stealing a lot of the young players. So all of a sudden the quality of the play is starting to go down. The quality of officiating is starting to go down. ABC loses the NBA to CBS because CBS kind of double crosses Roon Arledge, who's the most important sports executive probably of all time. And Rune Arledge is pissed and decides to counter program the living shit out of the NBA. College football, college, college basketball, Wide World of Sports, the superstars competition. And he just makes it his life's mission to set the NBA backwards. There's a salary boom that happens where all of a sudden you have some guys that aren't doing that well who are making a lot of money and everyone's really aware of it. Sidney Wicks, Pete Maravich, Spencer Haywood. So there's animosity toward basketball players for the first time. The Knicks and Lakers are done at that point by the time we get to the mid-70s and they have the future of the league, or so we would have thought on paper. Dr. J, Julius Erving, he's in the ABA, he's not even on television. So the NBA not only is getting older with some of their older stars like Havlicek Jerry west, all the guys from the previous generation. Oscar. But Doc, the guy who's supposed to come in and carry the league with Kareem is in the wrong league and not on tv. And I'm a young kid in Boston. I would have loved watching Dr. J not on TV. So again, we're in danger. And then what happens? We have a second unicorn situation. The 1976 finals. Havlicek and Cowan's on Boston, two of the most famous guys in the league. They're playing Phoenix, triple overtime game. I was lucky enough to be at the game with my dad. I was six years old. I might have slept through the fourth quarter and the first two overtimes, but it turns out to be the greatest game in the history of the league. Celtics win the title. The NBA is back. The ABA merges into the NBA that summer. All of a sudden we have Dr. J. David Thompson, George Gervin, George McGinnis, all the Moses Malone, all these guys are now in the NBA. And the NBA is 22 teams and stacked, and it's awesome. And that leads to Kareem jumping to. Kareem's already in la. Walton's on the Blazers. The Blazers take off that year and it's a late run. Second half of the year into the playoffs. They beat the beat Kareem. They end up beating Dr. J in Philly in the Finals. Bill Walton, turns out maybe he's the next Bill Russell. Everybody's in love with the guy. He's got the beard. He takes the jersey off after they win. So this is unicorn number two situation. 76 finals, 77 finals. Basketball seems like it's in the best shape that it's been in, maybe ever. What happens, we go back to the danger zone. The late 70s into the early 80s. Wong gets hurt the next year, never really recovers. And it would be like if Wembanyama won the title this year and then just got hurt and we didn't see him for six years. The cocaine era happens. And the cocaine that's hitting all the sports, that's hitting Hollywood, that's hitting the comedy circles. Cocaine starts to wipe out pretty much Everybody starting in 1978. And it does some real damage to the NBA and cuts short some careers, changes the course of some careers. Some young stars that they're counting on go sideways. So you have that. You have the Kermit Washington punch in late 1977, in that 77, 78 season, where he punches Rudy Tom Janovich, a white guy, and all this ugly stuff surfaces up all the casual racism that people felt toward a mostly black league being catered and sold to mostly white fans. That all pops up. And this crazy two year run of you can go back and read some of the old Sports Illustrated things about the league's too black, it's never going to work. And it's just. It fucking goes crazy in a bad, bad, bad way. In a way that even as a little kid I was kind of noticing the way they were talking about it. It was not great. We had the dumb owner Apex back then. This is when basically anybody could buy an NBA team and you just had these dumb owners. Like the Celtics for a year had John Y. Brown, he was terrible. Just dumb owners making dumb trades, not trying to build anything. So the teams are just in constant chaos. You have the dumb commissioner apex too. Larry O'Brien, who's awful. David Stern comes in and looks 100 times better compared to him. A few years later, you have CBS fucking up the playoffs. Either do tape delay in the primetime games or making the NBA schedule weekend playoff games so that you're playing game three and game four of a series back to back days. So they could care less about the health of the players. They really didn't want to show the NBA because it wasn't doing that well. So you had that. You had college hoops. The NFL, baseball, NHL, boxing, college football and horse racing are all more popular in the NBA by the end of the 70s because they have the Washington Seattle Finals twice in a row, which is a great basketball finals, but not exactly a marquee finals. And all of it is eventually captured in Breaks of the Game by David Halberstan. The best sports book of all time. That comes out, I think, in 82. But the NBA, the Lakers play the Sixers, I think, in 82 and 83. And some of those games weren't even on live television. They weren't on until 11:30 on the east Coast. That's how bad it was for the NBA. So I'm going to say a little more dangerous than right now. Leading to our third unicorn situation, the 1984 finals. We had Bird and Magic in the league for a while. They don't play against each other in the Finals, even though they have this great rivalry dating back to 79, when college basketball was way bigger than the NBA. Bird and Magic play each other during the same year. CBS is like, you know what? We're showing all of these finals games live now. We're going to show them in prime time. We're going to really Try to get behind the league and they get Bird and Magic, they get a seven game series. They get one of the great series in the history of the league that happens. They have Michael Jordan on the Olympic team that summer coming into the league on the Chicago Bulls, the third biggest market they have. MJ happens and then we're off. We get David Stern, we get cable. We have USA and ESPN by that point. So as a little kid on the east coast, all of a sudden I'm able. I couldn't see George Gervin and David Thompson or Whoever in the 70s unless I went to the Boston Garden to see them. Now in the 80s I can just pop on cable. I can see Dominique Wilkins, I could see Isaiah Thomas, I could see Adrian Danley, whoever I want. I can see. I could see Magic Johnson on the other coast. So that's happening. They're figuring out how to brand stuff better. And once MJ really gets going with the Bulls, the NBA takes off. We get the NBA fantastic commercials and we have this incredible unicorn 15 year run. Bird versus Magic Jordan, six titles. We have the Riley Knicks and Hakeem and Barkley and Isaiah's Pistons, the Blazers, Sean Kemp and G.P. stockton and Malone. I didn't really like watching them that much, but going to throw them in anyway. On and on and on it went. And it was the watershed time to ever be a basketball fan. It was the most talent concentrated into one area. Everyone's playing super hard. The league was the most fun, I would say in the late 80s, early 90s. And it just keep Jordan retires, they're fine because the Knicks make it that year. Jordan comes back, it becomes the biggest story really of anything other than maybe the decision with LeBron. Jordan wins three straight titles in a row in the bulls, including the 72 win bulls. And the NBA just goes. It's just arrow pointing up. All of it's captured in the last dance. Well, what happens? We hit the danger zone again. MJ retires. Right after he retires, lockout, no basketball for six, seven months. People are pissed because these guys are making so much money. The young guys are able to switch teams three, four years. Everyone starts getting mad. All the ugly casual racism stuff starts like percolating a little bit again. It's like has hip hop culture infected the NBA? Stern puts in a dress code. Wasn't great. Not great times. Well, what happens? We don't have an MJ successor. Grant Hill, KG, Tim Duncan, C. Webb, Iverson, Shaq weren't MJ successors. And then 2000 Kobe and Shaq. So we have Shaq and Kobe together. We kind of know something's happening with Kobe and in the 2000 season, that's unicorn number four, Shaq and Kobe. Shaq fouls out of game four of the finals. Kobe comes in, puts on the Superman cape, wins the game. They end up winning the title. This is after they escaped against Portland the previous round. And now we have this crazy Kobe and Shaq run that was like real drama, real theater. They were great. The 2001 Laker team is probably one of the two best teams of the century as of that's happening. A phenom named LeBron James is in high school. He's going to be in the 2003 draft with Carmelo and some others. And the league looks great. From 2000 to 2003, that is our unicorn number four moment. Shaq and Kobe ending up on the same team in Los Angeles. California on the Lakers. Couldn't have worked out better. Well, we immediately hit the danger zone again in 2003. We have the Kobe incident and the trial. Not great. We have the 2003 and 2004 finals, which were rock fights and ESPN Classic and NBA TV hardware. Classics, I think, are banned from showing any of those games. Defense got too good, the game got too physical. We had Kobe and Shaq falling apart. The game slowed down, the pace slowed down to the point that after the 2004 season, they had to add all these rule changes and these other, you know, legal defense stuff just to try to quicken stuff up again. And you had a league that was built around Tim Duncan. I think he's one of the seven best players of all time. Didn't really resonate with people like he should have. Dirk Nowitzki, German KG Mostly stuck on bad teams, except for 04C Webb, Dwyane Wade, Angry Kobe, young LeBron on crappy Cavs teams. It was grim. And if you remember, like when I was writing for Page two back when my fingers worked, I used to have a joke about how I was one of the last 20 NBA fans. The joke was that the NBA kind of sucks now, but I still love it. And this was a gimmick that I would do because we were in real danger with the culminating in the 06 finals where we had the referee controversy with Dallas and Miami, and we've all agreed not to talk about the 2006 finals. Then the 2007 finals where the east was, like, in such bad shape. LeBron ends up making the Finals. He's a heroic performance by him with Just an awful Cavs team that I think would be a 14 seed if we had them in the season now. So things are grim, things are bad. There's a lot of what's wrong. You can go back and search for my column archives, multiple what's wrong with the NBA columns. What happens? Well, unicorn number five situation happens 2008 to 2018. In short order we get the probably illegal Pau Gasol trade where the Lakers just steal Pau Gasol and nobody even else knows he's available. Thanks again to Chris Wallace for creating the second mini Kobe dynasty. Gasol and the Lakers. Now the Lakers are a contender. KG's already been traded to Boston. Now Boston's contender. All of a sudden we have Celtics, Lakers in 2008 and we're off, baby. We're back. We have we Kobe. Kobe loses in 08, but wins the next two finals. Celtics are in there in 2010. Against them after 2010. LeBron who can't get it done with Cleveland. The decision probably the single biggest off the court NBA moment that we've had other than MJ retiring. The decision, he changes teams. People lose their fucking minds. Goes to Miami. All of a sudden we have Miami, LeBron, we have aging but still fun. Kobe on a contender. Lakers aging but still fun. Celtics, a bunch of great young players coming up like KD and Russ on the Thunder. It's just going and going and going. And then what happens? Curry and the warriors show up. Curry reinvents basketball. He's hitting threes from all over the place with Klay Thompson. They have their little run. This goes all the way through 2019. 2019 finals is the tipping point. Durant gets hurt. Clay gets hurt. That warriors dynasty ends. Durant, we lose a year of his prime. We lose a whole year of Curry's prime with the Warriors. Really two years. But that was our last unicorn stretch. 2008 to 2019. And then what happens? We're in danger again starting in 2020. The bubble. The bubble ends. This really fun NBA season we're having where LeBron and the Lakers, Kawhi and the Clippers. Giannis is on his way up. Jokic is on his way up. Embiid's on his way up. Tatum and Brown are on Boston. And it just feels like. And then boom. The bubble. Weird. The player movement becomes out of control. It just feels like every year guys are switching teams. It starts to feel a little more like NBA 2k load. Management becomes a bigger story. The schedule's too long. We all hate it. They won't do anything about it. The three point stuff just gets worse and worse and worse. Now we have the Celtics shooting over 53s so there's a sameness to a lot of the games that I think a lot of people are down on. I would encourage people to go back and watch some of the terrible post ups in the 80s and 90s and see if you still don't. Don't like threes. But there's definitely a Curry effect with how the game's being played. The foreign stars are now all the best under 30 guys. And this is a league that dating back to Hakeem, who is just one of the best players I've ever seen in my life. But he wasn't from here and he never resonated like an American guy. Now we have Jokic and Giannis and Luka and Embiid and Wemby and maybe even sga if he can bounce back from a terrible NBA cup and become a real guy this year and maybe take OKC the finals. Those are six guys that aren't from here and we're talking about when is the next star. This is a league that's so beholden to the LeBron, Curry, Durant era and seems so afraid to pass the torch to the under 30 guys. You could see it with the TV schedule. OKC is on TV this year. Less than the Lakers, less than the warriors because they keep feeding us LeBron and Curry. You watch ESPN, you know all the content they're doing on first take. And on the NBA today, it's always Lakers, Lakers, Lakers. Like they're playing the hits and it's coming at the expense of trying to build up these, these new stars, which we even saw in the Olympics. I love the Olympics. I thought LeBron and Curry and Durant, watching those guys fend off Serbia and France, that was amazing stuff. But it did come at the expense of the next generation of guys who kind of needed a moment like that. And I think this league is. If there's a criticism that I think's valid, it's pushing these guys that have kind of already had their moment that were already great and trying to extract more great moments from them when there's probably not a lot of greatness left versus rolling the dice with some of the new guys, which is, you know, I see why they do it, but at the same time, like they gotta be pushing the younger guys more. And at the same time, like you have somebody like Edwards, who is such a unique and original guy and then he shows up for this season, he's shooting 12 threes a game and he's starting to look like everybody else I'm watching. So there's a sameness to the new guys. And then you have somebody like Jokic, who is really bird and magic trapped in a Serbian seven foot, doughy body. But he's not from here. And for whatever reason, he doesn't cook with fans, I don't think the way he should. So my point, big picture, is that we've had five unicorn moments and now we're due for a sixth. And this league has been around for eight decades and every time a unicorn moment, we're not even in the middle of one or we don't have one coming. Everybody thinks the NBA is in trouble, they're in danger, it's over. This is just the DNA of the league. And here's what's going to happen. There's going to be some new player that comes in, some new team, some new event. It's going to shift this. And all of a sudden we'll be like, oh, it's like when we did the Vince McMahon documentary. Triple H had this great quote about when he was talking about when Stone Cold and Vince and that whole era and he was like, I felt. It's like an earthquake. It's like, did I feel that? Did something move? And you just kind of know from a narrative standpoint, something has moved and that's what the NBA needs right now. I don't know what that's going to be, but I'm going to bet on the 80 year history of the league and the fact that internationally it's fine. This is an American problem. People are losing interest in America because they can watch fourth quarters of games on the NBA app. They can follow it like what Derek Thompson said on my podcast, you can follow the league without really watching it. So the ratings are down, but I'm not sure the interest is down. What they're missing, ironically, is what women's college basketball with the WNBA had, where Caitlin became somebody that people just wanted to watch. They just wanted to watch her games. They didn't care who she was playing. They didn't care what the stakes were. They wanted to watch her. And that's why I think you could really make the case she's more valuable than anyone the NBA has because she's the only must watch basketball player right now other than the old guys in the NBA. So they have to figure out what is their unicorn moment. But my prediction is that it's the NBA. It's been 80 years it's looked bleak before. They always bounce back. This is the league we have chosen. We're going to take a break and we are going to come back with Chris Manix. FanDuel wants you to win even bigger this NFL Thursday night. Right now, all customers can get a 30% catch a pass profit boost on the Thursday Night football game. That means you can boost your NFL catch a pass bet by 30%, take home even more winnings during the game, bet on over unders, spreads, poor props and so much more. Plus, if you win, you'll get paid instantly. Chargers Broncos Thursday night. I want to find out more about Herbert's ankle, but I think this is a kitchen sink game for the Chargers and if his ankle's okay, I think I like them minus three. But don't wait. Download America's number one sportsbook. Take advantage of a profit boost today. Must be 21 + in President's select states or 18 + in President D.C. opt in required max wager amount applies. Bonus issued as non withdrawable profit boost tokens restrictions apply including token expiration. See terms for Both [e-mail], gambling problem. Call 1-800- Gamble or visit rg-help.com this episode is brought to you by State Farm. State Farm helps you score an affordable price when you choose to bundle home and auto insurance with the personal price plan. Bundling home and auto, that's a pro move. Just another way you can save on your insurance needs. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can bundle and save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. All right, Chris Mannix is here. You can read him on Sports Illustrated. You can listen to his excellent boxing pod. He's got a basketball pod too. He's in Vegas. We're taping this before the NBA cup tonight, so we're going to avoid that. You really came on to tuck boxing. I'm going to save that. I'm going to put that over. Just quickly, some basketball stuff because you've been in Vegas for a couple days. What's the big buzz? What are all the kids talking about?

[Chris Mannix]

Well, the NBA really wants you to care about the NBA cup, that's for sure. We'll see how much that sticks. But really, you know, when you talk to people, different teams, the buzz nowadays is Jimmy Butler. Right? And what exactly is going to happen down there in Miami, it's pretty clear at this point that there'll be a few teams that express some level of interest in Jimmy Butler. And now I think the question is, what kind of motivation does Miami have to do a deal here? Like, Miami's playing some pretty good basketball. Jimmy just went for 35 the other night. And, and we know the Heat when they. They just believe when they get to the playoffs, they can beat anybody. And they've got a decent track record of, well, well, they. They. In 2022, they did, right? Like, they got.

[Bill Simmons]

It's not happening this year.

[Chris Mannix]

Yeah, probably not. No, I. I don't agree with you. And, and if you look at their roster, like, Jimmy doesn't fit the timeline. Like, everybody, including bam Adebayo is 27 and younger. So you figure the Heat will would have to get motivated to do a deal. The question is, when? Who's going to be on the table? What kind of offers are there? That's really kind of the most interesting thing, I think, in the league right now.

[Bill Simmons]

So I watched the fourth quarter and OT of the game last night against Detroit that they ended up losing in ot. He was incredible in that game. I think he had like a 35, 19 and 12, something like that, but looked like playoff. Jimmy was really trying hard. That team has a weird identity issue with. With Hero, who's been excellent. And it seems like over and over again at the end of games, it's just these hero 27 footers or butler. Bam's not involved really at all. And it's just. It's just a weird team to watch. It's not a team that's going to win four straight playoff rounds, but it seems like to me, we've seen this go a couple different ways with the guy who maybe doesn't want to be there anymore, or he's got, you know, he's going to be a Fragian at the end of the year. Maybe he's not happy the team didn't give him an extension. He seems like he's moved toward the. I'm actually mad I didn't get the extension and now I'm leaving after the year. I'm going to show everybody how awesome I am. And to me, I said this on the pod the other day. Houston's the team. You watch Houston. Were you there for the NBA cup semifinals?

[Chris Mannix]

I was not at that game, no. But I do think Bill Houston, they do protest too much about how they're going to keep this team together. Right. Like, every time you see, like, A quote from Raphael Stone or some reporting coming out of Houston. It's we want to keep this team together and, and see what it has. And I get that. I understand wanting to see how a young team fits over 82 games, how a young team plays in the postseason and kind of using that as, as a data point to build off of. But if you have a chance to supercharge your, your roster with a defensive minded veteran, that would fit in pretty well. I think an IME Udoka system and his culture, I think you've got to at least take a swing well.

[Bill Simmons]

And the other big part is an end of the game guy, which they don't have. You really feel it like they have no chance in an OKC playoff series. They're just not going to be able to get shots they want. OKC just strangled them. It's like we're going to talk boxing later. It's like watching the boxer who just doesn't let the other guy breathe and the guy just is trapped in the corner against the ropes, just trying to hang on. That's how I felt watching them. Offensively, Sengun's probably the safest bet. I don't trust any of their perimeter guys and they don't have that one guy who's like, all right, one point game, three minutes left, like kind of take us home. They go to Fred Van Vuitt. I don't trust Jalen Green at all. Like you go on down the line. But I like a lot of their players and I do think they have an identity. And what's interesting is he fits in with the identity so perfectly. So I was saying a couple days ago about Butler with Rozier and then Van Vliet's expirings in there and you load it with, you know, guys to make that they have a bunch of expirings to make it work. And then they have picks. And for Miami, it's just a reboot. They get cap space this summer. Nobody has cap space this summer. It's one of the crazy things, like, yeah, and one other team, right? It's like Washington or I think there's only two teams with 30 million and up. Miami could rig this so all of a sudden they could have the most cap space and be. To me, it's a reboot destination. All of a sudden next year they're a different team and a little more dangerous. And we've seen them do this multiple times in the last 20 years, right where it seems bleak. Then all of a sudden they're back. So I'm working under the assumption they're trading them. You don't think they would possibly think that they could beat the Celtics and the Cavaliers and okc? I just can't believe they would think that.

[Chris Mannix]

I think they probably think they could be competitive with Cleveland because there are things you can exploit against the Cavs in a seven game series. They can't believe they're on Boston's level. They're not. And that's really the bar, right? Like, yeah, they could look as of right now, today, they could extend Jimmy Butler. They can give him two years, buck 13. Like you've got nothing till June 30th to do that if you really wanted to. They don't want to. You know, he's 35 years old and no matter how he's playing right now, like, the idea of tacking two more years on to that option year, it doesn't make any sense then. And I get that. Like, how many teams over the last 12 months have handed out extensions they wish they didn't, right? Like Denver and Jamal Murray, the Sixers and Joel Embiid even. Like, you don't think you.

[Bill Simmons]

That's the number.

[Chris Mannix]

An extension to me, trying to be nice. I was trying to be nice. Like Embiid at least has like an MVP track record. Murray had never even been an all Star. Like he was coming off that absolute crap of a, of a Olympic run. Like there was. Those guys are just examples of, of, of guys you give extensions to way too early. Miami, they're on a different path here. Jimmy's not going to be on it. I think my question would be, Bill, is if like, like the draft capital move is, is probably the right way to go. The expiring contract is probably the right way to go. Reboot, use that cap flexibility. But can you get interested in Michael Porter Jr. If that's a deal with Denver? Like I saw you had that last.

[Bill Simmons]

Week as a Jokic guy. I loved it and I was trying to talk myself into it. But that can't be the centerpiece. I mean, you don't think that, do you? Is Porter the centerpiece of a Butler trade?

[Chris Mannix]

I mean, he's such a good offensive player. And I just think in that Miami system, you could unlock even more in him.

[Bill Simmons]

But now I don't have cap space next year. I do that. You don't. I'm committed.

[Chris Mannix]

That's what I'm saying. Those three guys, you're throwing out your, the cap flexibility stuff, you're, you're, you're going, you know, two boys, two more years @ big number for Michael Porter after this year. Yeah, yeah, after this year. Right. It's a tough call. I, I just, I love his, his offensive dynamic. Like just, just everything he can do offensively. I, I love. And he's kind of shaken off the injury bug from the last couple of years. Yeah, I, I just, I wondered. He kind of fits the timeline, too. What is he, like 25, 26 years old all of a sudden?

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Chris Mannix]

You're adding MPJ in with all these young guys. Throw Jaime Hawkes into that mix. You've, you're. Can you. I guess, can you get something better than Porter Jr. In free agency? It would be kind of my question over the next couple of summers. I don't know the answer to that.

[Bill Simmons]

You know who'd root for that trade is the Celtics, because they'd be like, oh, wait, you're going to have Porter and Hero and the same team in crunch time. This is great. It's like an all you could eat for who we're going to attack. I'm with you in the sense that I do like Porter as an asset a little more than I think other people. The contract, the back issues, like there's, there's real things to be scared about, like the defense, the fact that he's been replaced during games and crunch time for Russell Westbrook for defensive purposes, like, there's red flags. I love that he's played with Jokic for this long because that's like getting your fucking masters for how to play basketball. Right there does seem like there's more there offensively, but to me, that's a guy I, I like. I'm looking at a team like Brooklyn or some of the other like Eastern Conference also rans. And if you're looking at Porter thinking like, you know what, this is a guy who might be a 25 point game point a game scorer on a different team. You know, right now he's in the corner a lot or he's like just trying to play. Jokic and Murray are running everything, so what might that look like on a crappier team? What could that look like on, like the Pistons with what we watched, you know what Tim Hardaway and Beasley are doing and that and Tobias Harris are doing that kind of shooting forward spot. What if you put Porter in there? So, yeah, listen, I would love to see Denver somehow improve this. I just don't know. I don't think Porter is enough to get somebody like Butler. And then Golden State feels like they shot their wad with the Melton thing now they can't put the salaries together.

[Chris Mannix]

Yeah, well, you can still, I. I guess, rules wise, put Schroeder into a deal, and I don't know who's going to want Schroeder on the expiring. And they've got some. The problem with Denver is they have no draft capital.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Chris Mannix]

Like, you'd have to throw like, Zeke Najee into that and hope somebody wants him. But, man, you watch them, and I've watched a lot of them the last couple of weeks, like they need something. Like they need somebody with an edge. They need somebody to bring some energy to that team. I know Murray's had a good couple of games, like 48 over the last two, but, you know, he looks awful. His shooting numbers are all down. Jokic, I mean, I don't want to dump on the guy because he's having a ridiculous offensive season, but defensively he's terrible.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Chris Mannix]

And that's a big reason why, you know, they've sunk as far as they have defensively. So they just need an infusion of something if they're going to maximize this. You know, these last. Not last, but these few years of Jokic playing at an MVP level. And I don't know if Butler's the guy because all of a sudden you can't shoot at multiple positions. But his edge and his, like, the way he plays, I think that would be something that Denver needs.

[Bill Simmons]

He's certainly the most fun for the playoff run. I can't believe you said Jokic's defense was terrible. That really hurt my feelings as a number one Jokic lover. It's conditionally terrible because he's got great hands. He's jumping passing lanes, he gets steals. Like, he's very active. He's good at breaking two on ones. There's things he does well. But then you watch a game like the Kings last night where they're just getting basically whatever they want and, you know, his lack of rim protection becomes more of a problem.

[Chris Mannix]

Well, this is. This is the problem. Among the problems, and I was talking to. To an assistant coach that. That went up against him in the last couple of weeks. And, you know, part of it is Michael Malone is just running him out there for like, 38 minutes a game.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Because he has to.

[Chris Mannix]

If you're carrying that heavy and offensive burden, it's going to cost you something on the other end, no matter who you are. And I think it's costing him. There's the other thing I keep hearing, and I haven't been around him personally enough to see it. But people keep saying he's heavy, right? Like he's not in, in the kind of shape you've seen him in in years past. And all those things have, you know, caused him to go from being a guy that people saw trending towards like an average to good defender. Like he's never going to be elite but an average to good defender to. Now he's kind of taken a step back into that, that below average defensive range. And look it, it doesn't really matter for their purposes because he is so dynamic offensively. But you know, you look at their defensive problems and some of them are solved with Aaron Gordon back in the mix. But Jokic Murray getting killed on the point of attack, some of the guys off the bench not delivering. They're, they're not a good defensive team for all those reasons.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, and I think that the too many minutes thing is a big problem too. Is there, is there any other Butler team? Because you, you threw out Denver the other day. Golden State and Houston were the two I was focusing on in the content. I did. Is there, is there anybody else we're not thinking of? Because it doesn't seem. Do you.

[Chris Mannix]

Do I get amused by how many times I keep hearing Phoenix thrown this discussion? Like it makes any sense for anybody to do a deal like that. Like Phoenix would have to trade Bradley Beal, Miami would have to want Bradley Beal and I don't know why.

[Bill Simmons]

And he would have to waive a no trade clause and he's not Bradley Beal anymore. Like he's. If it was three years ago, Bradley Beal, I guess we could talk about it, but not the guy now. I don't. Doesn't seem like he can play for three straight weeks.

[Chris Mannix]

No. I see a lot of just, you know, going down through hoops type. It's like Phoenix interested in Jimmy Butler.

[Bill Simmons]

How.

[Chris Mannix]

Yeah, Dallas too. That's another one. Like that's not going to happen. No, I mean, I could see Golden State taking a swing. Like Golden State and Denver are the two teams that probably aren't all that concerned about, you know, Jimmy Butler next year. It's all about this year. You want to maximize a window and if Golden State can get him for some combination of Andrew Wiggins and Brandon Pajemski, then you'd probably jump at that. If you're the warriors and if Denver can get him, you know, just for Michael Porter Jr. And some filler, you'd probably jump at that. If you're, if you're the Nuggets at least you should because you're, you're, you're not looking at two, three years down the line. You're looking at now to win something.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought I was going to Thursday I had the Cam Johnson, Dennis Schroeder, Golden State. I did a whole thing about it and I really thought that was going to be how it played out. And then they got Schroeder. Two days later they didn't get Cam Johnson. And then they're reporting people were saying they didn't want to put Kaminga on the table in a Cam Johnson trade. I was really surprised by that because the contract that Cam Johnson's on versus what Kaminga is probably going to get and for agency next year, 30 million. I'm guessing Johnson's like at 22. I just rather have Cam Johnson. I think he's a better asset and I thought if they. And that's why I don't feel like that's dead yet because I think the more you stare at that the more you think Cam Johnson at 22 is just a good asset. That's like if I was doing like top 30 best contracts in the league for non rookie contract guys. Cam Johnson's in like the top 12 making 22 a year. So I don't think that's dead yet.

[Chris Mannix]

Do you think they're holding on to Kaminga though to see if there's something better out there than Cam Johnson?

[Bill Simmons]

That yeah, I think they're holding on. The problem though, you mentioned Schroeder before. I don't know if they can trade him in a trade where he's with other players because it's the trade deadline's early this year. It's like February 6th. So I think the trade they did for Schroeder, it's not in that two month window where then you can repackage the guy for multiple. I think that though did they change.

[Chris Mannix]

The rule for that? I'm not smart enough to remember all the new rules there but I maybe they changed it. From what I heard coming out of this was that they can package Schroeder as for another in another deal. So it's basically it's the same contract as D'Anthony melt in the second round capital they swapped means.

[Bill Simmons]

Well that's great then so then so they could do Kaminga, Wiggins, Schroeder and they'd have to send find a, a fourth guy somewhere like Pudzemski who I think they overvalued over the summer. I think was One of the lessons of the summer that was they were making him basically an untouchable, and he's just been really bad this year. Not totally his fault. He's playing out of position, but he has been good.

[Chris Mannix]

Was he low 30s? From three point range? He's really cratered in that sense. Schroeder's interesting. I mean, if he gets traded again, would it be nine teams in eight years?

[Bill Simmons]

Why do you think it didn't work for him in Boston? Because this version of Schroeder now I really like, but in Boston, it just didn't work.

[Chris Mannix]

Yeah, it's probably more to do with style of play. I don't really remember all the. I don't think there were any issues in the locker room. He had some of those early in his career, but I think he's moved past them.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it seemed like they liked him.

[Chris Mannix]

Yeah. And getting moved from Brooklyn is more about like, hey, we want a guy that can't play more than we want a guy that can. So I don't know, but, you know, he. Offensively, I think he's going to help the warriors to bring it full circle. Like, in the short term, I think having another ball handler is good. Having another score is good. A guy that can make shots in clutch situations, obviously, you know, Kerr likes him. I think he's going to help. But I don't think he's untouchable over these next couple of months either.

[Bill Simmons]

I really like him, too, because. Competitive, a good defensive player, like, just feisty. So the feistiness. Now you have him and you have Draymond and Kamiga gets a little feisty sometimes. Curry talks shit. Like, there's a little more of an identity with the team. The only other Butler I was looking at it, trying to figure out any way was the Cavs just. Is. Is that even. Does that even make sense? Do they have the contracts and. I just couldn't figure it out. And I'm not confident that they would do anything major anyway because they have great chemistry right now, and I don't think you'd want to fuck with that.

[Chris Mannix]

Don't. Yeah, the Cavs, to me, they've got great. They're a great regular season team. Right. Like, they're built to win a whole bunch of regular season games because they'll play 11 guys, and that's awesome in. In the regular season, but that's not really consequential in the playoffs. I love Mitchell and Garland right now, but smallish guards in the postseason can get exploited. We've seen it happen even in Cleveland before. So, you know, any deal with Butler and Cleveland would have to, I assume, involve Garland. Do you want Garland if you're Miami, does that make any sense that you brought a. Brought up defensive issues with Hero and Porter? It's the same kind of situation if you bring Garland into that mix. I don't know. I don't. If I'm, I don't think that's the move if, if I'm Cleveland, but I don't know that I'd make Cleveland a threat to Boston yet either, despite the fact they played really well against them in those two games.

[Bill Simmons]

Let me ask you, if salaries, if you could throw out salaries when you made trades, do you think the Celtics would trade Peyton Pritchard straight up for Giannis?

[Chris Mannix]

I mean. Yes, but the fact that we're even.

[Bill Simmons]

Asking that question, how about paid Pritchard for Jimmy Butler?

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know, man.

[Bill Simmons]

This is an unbelievable season that he's having. I mean, this is beyond 6 man of the year. Like his per 36 stats now are nuts and shit. Stats are nuts. He's in the running for one of the best six man seasons anyone's had since like John Havlicek for the Celtics. I can't believe what I'm watching.

[Chris Mannix]

The short answer to Pritchard for Butler is I think Boston would say no because Butler doesn't shoot threes. Celtics, you. You have to shoot at least eight threes a game to. Or be able to. To. To do. I mean, he's, he's been awesome. And what a contract he's on too. Like you'd have to. You couldn't do a Butler deal because Butler's making like what, 46 million and Peyton's making 8. So.

[Bill Simmons]

No, you can't even. You can barely put him in any trade. I would say if you're doing best contracts in the league, he's got to be in like the top three. He might even be number one. He's six man of the year at seven million bucks and also gives them the luxury of like, oh, Derek White's a little banged up tonight. We'll just play Pritchard. He'll score 29 in a starting spot. It's.

[Chris Mannix]

Can you.

[Bill Simmons]

It's really great. I mean that the, the ceiling of this regular season Celtics team, when everybody's back, I do feel like they have like a 16, 18 game winning streak in there somewhere before the season ends.

[Chris Mannix]

Can you think of a player? I can't think of a player that's had the kind of like three year stretch of Peyton Pritchard where it's like he's not playing. Joe Missoula doesn't like him. He wants to be traded. All of a sudden he's getting opportunity and now he's in the sixth man of the year. I'm sure guys have had this kind of roller coaster ride, but I haven't seen one like Peyton Pritchard, who, to get to this level, you said a couple of years ago this was where we, what we'd be talking about Babe Richard. Where would you trade him for Giannis or Jimmy Butler?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, those were jokes, but.

[Chris Mannix]

I know, I know, but I think Butler's a joke. I wouldn't trade him for Jimmy Butler. I mean, it's going to come off crazy, but like Peyton Pritchard fits what this team is doing. Peyton Pritchard can come off the bench and knock down, you know, six threes, two of them at the buzzer, like he's, he's, he's just the perfect fit for what they want to do.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, if you're talking 7 million for Peyton Pritchard or 48 for Jimmy Butler, I think for the way this Celtics team's constructed, it is, it's, it really feels like you see this happen sometimes in basketball, in, in football and baseball and boxing. It seems like the game slowed down for him a little bit. He'll have these moments where all of a sudden he's doing old man post up plays on shorter guards, he's around the rim, he's like, oh, I'm going to do old man pickup basketball and just like shoot a jump hook over this guy. It's been really impressive to watch. Speaking of boxing, big fight this weekend. My guy who I bet on every time he fights, I just parlay him with football teams. Usyk is the rematch against Fury. Usyk's never lost. Everybody's been looking forward to this fight. Is this to you, is this a will he finally get the credit he deserves as a main draw fight, or is this what does Tyson Fury have left fight?

[Chris Mannix]

I think it's more of a what does Tyson Fury have left fight. I do think that for a broader audience, Usyk is, you know, getting some of the credit that he deserved back at cruiserweight when he became the first ever undisputed champion in the four belt era. Comes to heavyweight beats. Aj, your guy twice that guy, that.

[Bill Simmons]

Guy who no matter where I bet I lose four against over my last six.

[Chris Mannix]

You. I get a text from you every time Anthony Joshua fights and it's Usually, like, I can't believe I bet on.

[Bill Simmons]

That guy, or I can't believe I didn't bet on him or whatever. Yeah, every time.

[Chris Mannix]

Yeah. I think as much as he is getting some of the exposure that he deserves, and I had like a two hour conversation with him last month for a story that's coming out on Friday. He's really a remarkable guy with a remarkable backstory. This is more about Tyson Fury. And what does Tyson Fury have left in the tank? I mean, he has overcome a ton of stuff over the last 10 years. You know, whether it's off the or outside the ring issues, weight issues, depression issues coming back from tough fights, you know, a whole bunch of different things. He's never had to come off a loss before. And I talked to Tyson for a while last week. I've watched a lot of clips of him over the last couple of weeks and I do wonder kind of what is his mindset coming into this fight, like how, how much does he have left? At 36 years old, which is chronologically younger than Augs and Usyk, but he's been through physically and perhaps mentally so much more. I mean, I saw an interview Tyson did this week where he said that he hasn't talked to his wife, Paris in three months. Like, didn't really elaborate on that, but said he hadn't talked to his wife in three months. And I'm watching the interview, I'm going, what? Like this? This is a big family. They were on that Netflix series. Like they are intertwined, those two. Hasn't talked to her in three months. Now, maybe it's because, hey, I'm just totally locked in. I don't know if I buy that, but I'm wondering what Fury has left here, because if you're not 100%, if you don't have your A game, Usyk's gonna beat you. I think Usyk is a generational great. You know, I think he's one of those rare guys that only come along once every 20, 25 years, that are so skilled, so strong, doesn't matter what weight class you put him in, he's going to dominate big guys, small guys. He's going to beat you with his discipline and with his game plan. If you don't have everything going for you the right way, you're going to get beaten. And that I'm not so sure about with Tyson Fury.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the interesting thing about the first fight is the scorecards had it closer than I think I had it in my head when I was watching him and Fury almost got knocked out. It seemed like it was a wrap and he really got the shit kicked out of him. I think it was the ninth round, and then kind of. He definitely won the 12th round, the 11th round. I remember two of the judges gave it to him, one judge didn't, which was super suspicious. But I don't know. It was a split decision, but it really wasn't. Like, I don't think anybody watching that fight thought, oh, I wonder who won? Fury's face looked worse. Everything looked worse. I just think Usyk reminds me so much of Pereira in the ufc, where it's. You just watch him and you're like, I don't know what the answer is to try to beat this guy. At least in ufc, you could try to take the guy down and get him on the ground. I. With Usyk, I almost feel like it's gotta be somebody like Bacoli just overpowering him and using, like, a huge size. You know, I'd bring Bacoli up, like, just a huge size disadvantage because he is, like, a blown up cruiserweight, and maybe that's how to beat him. I just don't see Fury doing it.

[Chris Mannix]

You gotta. First of all, at some point, you should sit down with a goalie because he's an incredibly engaging guy, and I know you love him. He's. He's. He's interesting. Usyk would beat Bacoli 12 zip, by the way. Like, Usyk would not make the same mistakes Jared Anderson made and stay within range of that right hand. He would just.

[Bill Simmons]

He would just be around.

[Chris Mannix]

He'd be zipping around him using feints inside.

[Bill Simmons]

How dare you disparage Bacoli.

[Chris Mannix]

There's a lot of guys on the fight. I. He's. He's a really funny guy, but here's the thing, and fun to watch.

[Bill Simmons]

Nobody wants to fight Bacoli. He couldn't even get on the February 22 card. They had to, like, push him to the next card. But he was supposed to. I mean, it seemed like dubois was going to be the natural. Whatever. He didn't want to fight him.

[Chris Mannix]

He does not want to fight Dubois, does not want to fight Mara Bacoli. Not. Not with, like, Dubois sitting out there going, like, all right, there's maybe a rematch with aj, which is worth eight figures. There's maybe a unification fight with the winner of Fury and Usyk. That could be worth eight figures. I am not getting in the ring with Martin Bacoli and risking getting my head taken off when I'm. I've already had some issues with knockouts in the past. You're, you're, you're not doing that. So, look, Usyk, what I love about Usyk is that he kind of gives away the game plan before every fight. Like when he makes these jokes where he's like, don't be afraid, Tyson. I'm not going to leave you alone. That is, is him telling you that he's going to be applying pressure all night. And pressure comes in different ways. Like, it doesn't have to be this overwhelming. I'm going to put you in a headlock during every round, type of pressure that we've seen from some brawlers. It can just be staying in your face and making you keep your hands up at all times and making you stay on your toes at all times. That's exhausting. Like, Tyson Fury, I thought, won the first half of that. Of that fight with Usyk, 4, 2. Could have been 3, 3. But the pressure Usyk put on was overwhelming. And in the ninth round, it got up to him. When Usyk landed that first straight left hand, you know, that was, that was the fight right there. So he's going to do the exact same thing again. And if, again, it goes back to Fury. If he's not as sharp as he's been at his very best, I think he's going to have a lot of problems in this fight.

[Bill Simmons]

Usyk has a lot of pieces of things that I've loved from guys in the past. As the fight goes on, it just seems like he shrinks the ring and figures out the exact distance, how to hit the guy with the little tiny punches that don't seem like a big deal, and then they kind of add up. But there's pieces of Hopkins in there, there's pieces of Cesar Chavez in there. Just those guys that just. There's one fight, the first four rounds, and then the fight starts to shift, and you can kind of feel it. And I don't really know what the answer is to beating him, but I just know I'm going to be betting on him every time he fights. He's 37. I don't know how many more of these he has left, but, I mean, if you look back at his, he's 22, and, oh, he beat Joshua twice, beat Dubois, beat Fury already. Could be beating him again. He was dominant as a cruiserweight. Go back to the 2012 gold medal in that whole era, like, he was beating all those guys. And I don't like, if he wins this, what's next? Because you could fight Dubuis Parker fighting Feb. 22. So Zhang and Cabel. So maybe it's one of those two. Who's the next fight.

[Chris Mannix]

It's not going to be aj, who wants nothing to do with. With Usyk and aj. To me, like, they. They keep talking about, like, if Fury loses, you can make the AJ fight. Like, we didn't just see AJ get clobbered over five rounds today. Dubois gonna forget about that. That happened. Remember the three in a row, AJ won and not. Not that one. So it's not gonna be aj. You beat Fury again, it's not gonna be Fury. Dubois would certainly do it. But, like, yeah, I mean, I think Usyk, if there was enough money on the table, would certainly fight Danny Dubois again, become undisputed champion once again. There could be, like, events out there for him. Like, everybody in boxing has been trying to find a way to do a fight with Jaylee Zhang on mainland China. Like, the amount of times I've heard about Zhang going back to the Bird's Nest in Beijing in front of 100,000 people, you know, for a while, it was Anthony Joshua. Well, hey, it could be Alexander Usyk that fights him there if Zhang can get a win in his next fight. So maybe it's something like that. But he will have quite literally have cleaned out the heavyweight division if he beats Tyson Fury for the second time, or there'd be guys he hasn't beaten. But beating those two top guys twice, that will be an accomplishment. And you asked me, like, how do you beat Usyk? To me, there's only one way to do it, and that's to just apply unrelenting pressure to him. Because there have been times where Usyk has been in trouble. Like at cruiserweight, he had a. I think it was a split decision win over Mares Breidas, who's a physical guy at cruiserweight. The times that AJ had success against him was when he was the one putting pressure. He was the one letting his right hand go. I think it was like the 9th or 10th round of that second fight. We had Usyk in real trouble. Even early on. Fury landed some good shots on Usyk. Just didn't follow up and chase him down. Go back even further. Derek Chisora, of all people, Derek Chisora might have given Usyk his toughest fight at heavyweight because through six rounds, he was just lumbering after him, you know, in that fight. So if you are willing to. To just, you know, go all in and commit on a pressure style, you can have success against Usyk. But if you Try to box him, you're going to lose every single time. Because he is a better boxer than everyone at cruiserweight and everyone at heavyweight.

[Bill Simmons]

Which is one of the things that made Fury special was at his size, he was like kind of a sneaky good boxer, but not compared to this kid. I'm glad, I'm glad you brought up Chisora. I think he's lost to everybody in the division at this point. Right. He's still going, so not over yet. So is there a cruise await that could move up?

[Chris Mannix]

Not. I mean, look, so Gilberto Ramirez is now a unified champion and Gilberto is someone that people in the US know a little bit about. Former champ at 168, title contender at 175, lost to BVOL back in 2022 over in Abu Dhabi. He's a name in that division. And you know, Usyk's fought in the US in the past. That would probably be a pretty big fight if, if Ramirez wins one or two more fights. The other guy in that division is Jaya Pattaya, who's super athletic, good power at that weight class. Still trying to build a name, I think that's big enough to, to get someone like Usyk that's interested. So those are conceivable possible fights, but I would make Usyk a big favorite against both those guys. I, you know, USYK 2, Bill, the last fight, I forget what his exact weight was, but you could tell that in what was, I think his fifth fight at heavyweight, he had grown into the weight class before he was just going up in weight and he was like 212, 213, 218. He was solid in the last fight. Like he is a full fledged heavyweight right now. And if he takes on a cruiserweight like Ramirez or Apatia coming up, they're going to have problems with his size. So yeah, there are some, some decent names there, but nobody that, that I would make a threat at this point to Usyk.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I remember that happened with Holyfield. It took him a couple to feel like he was a heavyweight and then it happened. Well, on Fanduel right now he's minus 166, 166usyk, which I just think is nuts. I don't understand at this point in his career from everything we've seen how he's not minus 250 against everyone else in that division. Just blind. There's not one person that he shouldn't be minus 2,50 against.

[Chris Mannix]

So I worry, Bill, but I worry about some of the like the scorecards were too close last time. You know, Usyk, he needed that knockdown to pull out a decision, right. You know, there's a lot of money in a trilogy that's a reality, right? Like if Fury wins, there's a whole pile of money. I don't, I don't want to do it, but I've seen enough in boxing to wonder, you know, what could happen in a circumstance like this.

[Bill Simmons]

I think Uzi, boxing gets fishy sometimes.

[Chris Mannix]

It gets very fishy. It gets very fishy. And I think more importantly, there's. There's some bad judges in boxing, like really bad judges. And judging boxing is hard. I have to do it on an unofficial capacity, you know, every week at the zone. But some strange things happen on scorecards in boxing, and I hope we don't get that in this fight. I hope the, the right man comes out the winner.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, probably the maddest people get at you is, is either something you wrote about LeBron or they didn't like how you scored round four in the third to last fight on a dazed thing, right? People just go nuts about the scoring. I had to go nuts watching it. I get so mad.

[Chris Mannix]

But it's always, it's always on a micro level, right? It's like, I can't believe you scored the fourth round for such and such. Well, let me go back and rewatch that and I'll rescore it. But it's, look, it's hard, especially some of these rounds where there's not a ton of action. And I think Usyk Fury, some of those rounds were hard to score, especially in the first half of, of the fight when there wasn't the kind of obvious action you saw in the second half. But I mean, I just hope there's no controversy to this one. If Fury wins, great, let's have a trilogy. I think it'd be awesome. But if Hoosick wins, you know, hope he wins clean.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the other thing, when you're sitting close, you might miss like the biggest punch of the round cause the ref blocked you or, you know, it's, it's not an exact science. Before we go, we got to talk about the supercard in February 26th or February 22nd. I don't know if there's been a card like this, like the, the third, fourth best fight on this card would be the best fight on a Saturday night. We talked, we talked in the past about how the Saudis and all this overseas money and they're just like, we want everybody good to fight each other. And that's what we want. And that's. This seems like the full culmination of that. This is one, one of the best boxing cards of all time. When you saw it all laid out, were you shocked? Like they didn't even have room for Bacoli. They were like, now we're moving you over, moving your fight later. This is one of the. We have super middleweight, lightweight, welterweight, better BF against B. Ball Dubois against Parker Zhang's Fighting Cabiel. Like it's a fucking crazy card.

[Chris Mannix]

It's the deepest card that I've ever seen. You go back to the 1990s and Don King put on some unbelievable pay per view cards where they were four fights deep. Championship level, high level stuff. We've never had a card that on paper goes seven fights deep with all headliners night after night. And this is, this is an example of the positive impact of, of the Saudi's entry into boxing. What we're going to see in the main event on, on Saturday is an example. I mean, having a two fights between Fury and USYK in one year is remarkable. Even more remarkable is the headliner of the February 22 card. I mean, we had to wait six years. Six years. Both better BF and Bivol were world champions and they didn't fight each other because there's no money in it because either one of them has a real fan base. Saudis come along, they make a fight in October and less than six months later we're getting the rematch. Like that is that, that's. There's a huge net positive for the Saudis being involved in boxing, for boxing. I would say this though. I don't know how necessary it is to have seven fights like this on a card because it's great if you want to watch all seven. If you are a true purist. If you're a die hard. Yeah, you sit down at 11 o'clock in the morning on the west coast and you're watching, you know, Zhang fight or you're watching Virgil Ortiz fight. It's great. Like I would, I will spend my entire day if I'm not there watching that particular card. But especially in the US not a lot of people are probably going to do that. And I do think there's something to the idea of spreading this stuff out, right. Like having two or three great fights on a card and then a month, month and a half from that, then having the other two or three great fights. Like having sort of a, a schedule.

[Bill Simmons]

Starting during a month.

[Chris Mannix]

Yeah. So you got these guys.

[Bill Simmons]

This is UFC though. Like UFC has changed the thinking on this because there will be some UFC cards that you could watch for five straight hours, and they. They kind of want that.

[Chris Mannix]

Yeah, but UFC is able to do that month after month, right? Like, I don't know what the boxing schedule is after February 22nd. Like, there are some fights I'm looking forward to, but, you know, nothing with the kind of depth that we're going to see on the 22nd. Like, even, like, Shakur Stevenson. Floyd Schofield is a fun fight that would headline in Newark or in New York. Virgil and Madrimoff, good fight in Texas. Like, I think it's. Look, I'm excited to watch every single one of these fights. I wouldn't argue, though, with the idea of, like, hey, let's push a few of them, you know, a month from now, and maybe a couple others. Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

Just.

[Chris Mannix]

Just divvy it up. Give these guys a chance for. For a little more exposure. It's great that they're getting the money. Like, all these guys are getting paid, and in a sport like this, you deserve it. But I just worry about the exposure of a guy that's going to be fighting at noon Pacific in the US that's the only thing I would quibble with.

[Bill Simmons]

Counter. This is like Thanksgiving. It's like, should we have sweet potatoes and mashed potatoes, then stuffing and, like, fuck it, let's just. Let's just go for it. To me, this is like a once in a decade kind of card. I don't know if they'll be able to replicate this many fights in a row. I've never seen anything like this where you literally can't miss the first of seven fights. And the best thing is Stevenson, who I think is my least favorite good guy to watch. And now he's buried on this card with six other fights. So I don't have to, you know, be like, ah, do I get it? I don't really like watching this guy. And now it's like, he's just one of the many, but somehow they left out my guy Bacoli. So I have to get. Do I have to get Bacoli on a podcast? Try to try to pump him up? What do I need to do?

[Chris Mannix]

I. I think you should. I think he'd fly to Los Angeles to do it. I mean, he's got, like, this incredible story where he's from Africa, but he's kind of Scottish now, and he's got this great personality that comes with it, and he's been so avoided for. For so many years. Just to put a button on the card. It's a great problem to have. Right? Like I'm excited about it. I want to see it. Everyone.

[Bill Simmons]

You're working, right? Are you working it?

[Chris Mannix]

I believe so. They. We haven't figured that out yet but yeah, I was at the last. Better be a B bowl fight. Yeah, it's a great problem to have. Seven hours of high level boxing is going to be awesome for the boxing fans out there. Like ultimately that's, that's what it comes down to.

[Bill Simmons]

I wonder like this card so good. I wonder if you almost need to play by play guys. I don't. Is it too much to ask? One play, it's almost like you have to go WWF or they have the two different play by play guys for the five hour card. That's like, that's. I don't even know if Gus Johnson would be able to go for seven straight hours with boxing.

[Chris Mannix]

We did that whole Riyadh season card in la, which I think was like six fights. Like that was a lot of. Because that was, you know, that was a pretty deep one. You had, you know, David Morell fighting low on that card. You had a pretty good slobber knocker of a fight with Jarrell Miller and Andy Ruiz, you know, low on that card. So yeah, it's, it's. These are, are long days, but they're. If you are like a true purist and someone that just wants to sit down on your couch and is willing to invest seven hours, it's one of the, It'll be one of the better days. You'll.

[Bill Simmons]

You'll have February 22nd. February turning into a surprisingly good sports month. It used to be like the dead month, but now all of these different places have figured out like the trade, they moved the trade deadline up somehow against the super bowl and then a whole bunch of stuff happening. Chris Mannix, great to see you. Have fun at the NBA cup tonight. Hope all's well with you.

[Chris Mannix]

You got it man. Thanks.

[Bill Simmons]

This episode is brought to you by NFL Sunday Ticket on YouTube TV. There's a lot to be thankful for this season. For one, I am thankful. You can get NFL Sunday Ticket on YouTube TV right now for only $209. It's exactly what you need as we head right into the playoffs. You can invite your friends over, maybe have a multi view. You could have four different games, one for you, one each for the three other friends you invite. You can change the games around. As soon as a game the outcome becomes pretty certain. Dump that game. But in another one. I've become the multi view master. The moment one of the games is losing steam, I'm ready to move right in and move it for another one. Build your own multi view. One of my favorite words. Thank yourself. This holiday season get NFL Sunday ticket for the rest of the NFL regular season for just $209. Sign up [e-mail] BS Terms and Embargoes apply. Device and content restrictions apply. No cancellations. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. It's football season and Uber Eats is dropping undefeated deals on all your game day favorites this week. Score. Buy one, get one free six piece boneless wings from Buffalo Wild Wings. Now on Uber Eats. And if you're craving even more, we've got you covered with game day and deals on pizza, burgers, tacos and more all season long. Uber Eats official on demand food delivery partner of the NFL. Order now for game day terms, taxes and fees apply. See app for details. All right, coming up, you're going to hear two things I taped with Chris Ryan on Monday. The first is about Timothee Chalamet in the Bob Dylan movie. Tried not to have any spoilers in this, so we're going to play that and then after that we're going to move right to Landman, my favorite new show of the 2000 and twenties. So me and Chris Ryan right now. All right, I'm here with Chris Ryan. It is less than 10 days until the Bob Dylan movie comes out with.

[Chris Ryan]

Chalamet a complete unknown.

[Bill Simmons]

You've seen it?

[Chris Ryan]

I have.

[Bill Simmons]

I saw it over the weekend on the Producers Guild app.

[Chris Ryan]

Must be nice.

[Bill Simmons]

Low expectations. I don't want to step on your pod Vachon, because I know you have a big pod coming out on Christmas. The thing that jumped out to me was how good Chalamet was.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And I intentionally tried not to read anything. I wasn't that excited about the movie because I've never loved Bob Dylan just because my entire life everyone's just talked about what kind of a dick he is.

[Chris Ryan]

Perfect example of English teacher guy. English student. A lot of reading.

[Bill Simmons]

Like the music. Expected it. My parents really liked him. He means a lot to my mom. But we kind of know him. The older version of Bob Dylan where he's just kind of mutters and does. Anyway, Chalamet was great.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

As you know, I love when people sing in movies. Val Kilmer in the Doors is one of those where I always thought like it never got enough credit.

[Chris Ryan]

Cooper and a Star is born.

[Bill Simmons]

He does a really good job and I Don't understand why he's not like a prohibitive best actor.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't think enough people have seen the movie yet. I think when he is actually like, first of all, this is. He's already doing the Lord's work on the promo tour, which we're going to talk about.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

But once people see this movie, I think that he might slingshot ahead of Ray Fines and Adrian Brody.

[Bill Simmons]

So what are the cases for Ray finds and Adrian Brody?

[Chris Ryan]

So Rafe is probably a. He deserves it. Body of work. Conclave's really good body of work.

[Bill Simmons]

Like a Joe Embiid type.

[Chris Ryan]

But he's never won.

[Bill Simmons]

Two years ago, he's never won. Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm wearing a thunder hat. I don't even acknowledge that. Yeah. Body of work for Ray Finds. It I think for Adrien Brody, it would be like, this is it. This is the performance of a lifetime. Even though he's already won, which I think will probably count against him.

[Bill Simmons]

Already won. That's a strike. Chalamet. This is great for the Oscars. He'll definitely get nominated, and it'll feel like a younger, hipper Oscars. But I gotta be honest, I didn't. Wasn't positive he had a performance like this in him. I didn't see a musical side of Chalamet.

[Chris Ryan]

It's the first movie that I feel like this in Dune. But it definitely Dune 2, where it kind of like. It's like, Tim's a. Timmy's a man now. Like, he's like, actually a convincing guy in his late 20s now.

[Bill Simmons]

Remember when this happened to Leo?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Was like the catch me if you can era, where I was like, oh, Leo's an adult now.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. You've done the beach and a couple of other things to try and move into, like, out of heartthrob and into adult.

[Bill Simmons]

I remember this happened to you when we went to the ringer.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You shed like your Grantland teen idol.

[Chris Ryan]

That was. That was my blood diamond.

[Bill Simmons]

He went right at. But yeah. No. So now this opens up. He has this. I think he's gonna win the Oscar.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I'd be surprised if he didn't. I think he'll get a lot of momentum because it's so surprising how good he is in this.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

In a movie. That probably shouldn't work in a movie. I'm not even positive. I don't want to step on your take because you have the whole pot. But I'm not positive I love the movie that much, but I love the performances. And I thought he was great. I thought the. What's the Top Gun lady's name?

[Chris Ryan]

Monica. Monica Barro.

[Bill Simmons]

Monica Barbara. Yeah, she was great.

[Chris Ryan]

She plays Joan Baez.

[Bill Simmons]

Norton.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, Norton is Pete Seeger. I think it's a movie that'll probably be like. A lot of people are like, I love the performances, I love the music. I don't know if there's like a.

[Bill Simmons]

Huge story there, but that's been a lot of musical biographies in general. Like, Walk the Line was the same thing. People are like, I love Phoenix. I loved Rhys. Movie was that one had a little.

[Chris Ryan]

Bit more inherent tragedy built into it. But I think that this one is just gonna really blow people away. Because if you see the trailer and if you just look at Timothee Chalamet, like in his day to day life, you probably wouldn't guess that he could pull this off.

[Bill Simmons]

It has something in common with the stars born. When we heard word about this and then there was like the initial clips and you'd think, oh, no, no, brother. Oh boy, here we go. You know, we've seen people make. Go this way and make the mistake. But. But anyway, you mentioned the press tour with Chalamet.

[Chris Ryan]

So Chalamet's using the opportunity that he might have here where he's odds on or he's going to be an odds on Oscar favorite, if not like the prohibitive favorite. And he seems to be taking most of that time to make it clear how much he loves sports.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And I love it. Now there's a very, you know, not famous, but infamous clip of him on Kimmel from like eight years ago or whatever it was where he talks about how much he loves you. Right?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

He's done. Theo Vaughn. He's done Game day. He's done.

[Bill Simmons]

He was good.

[Chris Ryan]

He was great on game day. When are we getting Timmy on the bill pot?

[Bill Simmons]

I put the request in.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

I've wanted to have him on for years. I know he's a big Knicks fan. He seems like a genuine sports fan.

[Chris Ryan]

He seems like a nut.

[Bill Simmons]

And we put the stuff out. I don't know how his team decides, but.

[Chris Ryan]

So this is the Chalamet, the challenge.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, Chalamet, Come on the pod. Let's find out once and for all how much sports. You know, I saw you on college game day. It was convincing. But I also know he's an actor.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And he could memorize what, four or five pages of script of dialogue in one day. So the. He couldn't have remembered, like six pics that his buddy gave him. And I want to like, really dive in with the Chalamet sports experience.

[Chris Ryan]

The flip side is that, like, there are photos of him, like, autograph hounding Amar'e Stoudmeyer. Like, I think he might talk about it.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, let's find out. This side of you, the sports side. It's not coming out in the Theo Vaughn podcast.

[Chris Ryan]

What do you think would you would do to him? Would you just put him on, guess the lines like blind? Would you.

[Bill Simmons]

I want to go full like 80 minutes. Let's talk. Let's have the deep dive. Next combo that you've never really had on a podcast, Travis Hunter.

[Chris Ryan]

How does he translate to the NFL?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, Real college hoops. Do you gamble? Where do you gamble? What sites to use? Are you. Are you a friend of fanduel? Do you do. How'd you do last week on NFL picks? Like, how deep does this go? Do you play fantasy football?

[Chris Ryan]

What if he's not coming on your pod because he has lost most of the money he's made following million dollar picks?

[Bill Simmons]

No, I'm doing well this year. I just had a bad last week. Is he your team? The Eagles? Yeah. Come on, let's really see it once and for all. Do you have takes on the Super Bowl? Lions defense is banged up. What do you think, Chalamet? Let's go.

[Chris Ryan]

Why is college football players down?

[Bill Simmons]

NBA ratings down. Why? What are your reasons? LeBron and Curry and Durant stay too long. What's your take?

[Chris Ryan]

There are threes. Are we getting too much of an homogenous product with threes?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, this is what the people want. Shalom. Come on. The pod.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't want you talking about how you. You've just been building your whole acting career towards playing Bob Dylan. We want to know whether or not you think Jalen Hurts can win a Super Bowl.

[Bill Simmons]

And I want to pitch him, which I've done in the past. I did with Michael B. Jordan to much success. A couple roles that I think he should play now. If he wins the best actor, what's next? Heist Movie. Really well done. Rom com. And then what would be the third one? Just stuff for us. So I had pitched highest movie. Is he. What is he? Sports, Sports, movie. Sports, movie.

[Chris Ryan]

Coach Greenwald. I pitched him Timothy Chalamet as a iconoclastic offensive coordinator. Like the Ben Johnson story. Oh, like a guy who's coming up through Texas.

[Bill Simmons]

Isn't Mike McDaniel more fun? Yeah, he just kind of unravels his quarterback.

[Chris Ryan]

If we find out like that Mike McDaniel got involved in like some crazy Scarface, Coke thing in Miami.

[Bill Simmons]

Mike McDaniel crossed with pain and Gain.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Starring Chalamet as the offensive coordinator of the Dolphins who's fallen behind with gamers.

[Chris Ryan]

It's like, we love these, these. These plays you're calling, but our wide receivers keep getting killed out there.

[Bill Simmons]

Another one's down. So sports movie, heist movie.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Does he need to be in a. There's something wrong with the house movie.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, like a horror.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I think that this movie, when you see him in Dylan, he's got a little hair on his chest, and I think he needs to be back in the mix for Heat two Conversations. I don't know what part, but I'm just saying he could be in the conversations. And then I think. I think you're right. A horror movie would be incredible.

[Bill Simmons]

Or like, if we're. I'm having fun with this, but if we're. If he's going to do the Leo playbook, just check mark. Best director, one after the other. You work with all the greats. That's what Leo did.

[Chris Ryan]

Is there anything from.

[Bill Simmons]

Has he done Fincher yet? He hasn't.

[Chris Ryan]

He hasn't done Fincher yet. No. It's Villeneuve. It's James Mangold for complete unknown. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, Timothy Chalamet, The New Jersey Drone story.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, that would be great.

[Chris Ryan]

It's like a guy. Just a guy in Jersey.

[Bill Simmons]

Just the trailers and it could be.

[Chris Ryan]

Like Spielberg, like Close Encounters or War of the Worlds.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that sounds great.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Close Encounters of the drone kind.

[Bill Simmons]

If he wants to cash in, though. You've come up with some spy franchise.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, like a born kind of thing.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. You come up with your own. Or Mission Impossible. You come up with your own.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, version.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe you mix it with sports.

[Chris Ryan]

Maybe he's a sports spy.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe he's like.

[Chris Ryan]

So he's like Connor Stallions.

[Bill Simmons]

He's rich. Paul crossed with a spy. It's like clutch as a front for all the espionage.

[Chris Ryan]

That's like the young Scott Boris story.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe he plays Scott Boris. That could be a sports movie. Sure.

[Chris Ryan]

That would be a great transformation. It'd be like when Leo played J. Edgar.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, out of all these ideas, the best idea is Mike McDaniel. CrossFit. Pain and gain because we get Miami.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

There's drugs.

[Chris Ryan]

You could. You could. You could embed him in the Miami football scene. You could be. You could make it be like. It could be like Teddy Bridgewater is hanging out and stuff like that. It would be awesome.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, whatever the Case Chalamet. Come on the podcast. Let's do this once and for all. Let's talk about future roles.

[Chris Ryan]

Let's talk sports.

[Bill Simmons]

Let's talk Amar Stoudemire. Let's talk Carmelo. Does he have thoughts on the Carmelo Marrow pod? I want to know all this stuff. Just come on the pod.

[Chris Ryan]

Come open a six pack with Bill.

[Bill Simmons]

Come on. You're going to win best actor. Come on the pod. This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. It's nice to see all the different family traditions people do this time of year. You know, it's become one of my new favorite traditions. My daughter comes home from college. We haven't seen her in la, where I live, since the beginning of August. So when she comes home, it feels like the conquering hero's back. I love it. However you plan to spend your time during the holiday season, I hope you guys are happy. But also you should be feeling that way all year round. So make sure you bring yourself some comfort that'll never go away. And try therapy. Therapy teaches us so many different skills and coping techniques, like positive coping skills, how to relax, and it can help everyone, not just people who have experienced a major trauma. If you want to try it out for yourself, check out BetterHelp. It's an easy, convenient way to get started, especially since everything is online. All you have to do is fill out a short questionnaire and then you'll be matched with a licensed therapist. It's that easy. Find comfort this December with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com billsimmons today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelphelp.com billsimmons this episode is brought.

[Chris Mannix]

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[Bill Simmons]

We'Re taping this after the sixth episode of Landman ran. So there's spoilers in this. Yeah, CR is making my all time TV rankings.

[Chris Ryan]

All time. Like anything ever broadcast on television or streaming.

[Bill Simmons]

I think Landman's like third. This is the greatest show of this decade. I can't believe how much I love it. It's the first show in a While that when we're getting toward, there's five minutes left, seven minutes left, I'm like, oh, man, there's only seven minutes left. You can't leave Cooper like that. I can't wait a week. This sixth episode was the best episode of the season. It was incredible. It's everything we want from a dumb TV show like this.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know how good it is, but I know that I haven't had more fun talking about a TV show this year. Like, literally, like, every conversation I have about Landman seems to go 20 minutes and it's just like we're hysterically laughing but also deeply, deeply involved in the plot. This is Taylor Sheridan's. Like, I didn't know that he was ever going to have like a home run again after Yellowstone. I thought he would have, like, much.

[Bill Simmons]

Less a grand slam.

[Chris Ryan]

That niche. People like, you know, like, people love Lioness. People liked it in Mayor Kingston, Tulsa King, whatever, the Yellowstone spinoffs. This feels like it could be the biggest show he made. Like, I don't. Billy Bob's. No, no. Kevin Costner in terms of like the matinee Idol department. But in terms of, like, the amount of people watching it and the amount of times where you just like, there's something in here for everyone. Like, you can be into this because it's like Friday Night Lights. You can be into this because it's like Sicario. You can be into this because it's like Dallas. I don't know, man. I love this show.

[Bill Simmons]

Think of the three things you just mentioned. And it's like a hybrid of all of those things. One of the things, because we were talking to Fantasy about it, he'd only watched the first three and he's in like movies run now. And I feel like he hasn't paid 100% attention because if he did, because if he did, he would understand. But I do feel like the second three episodes, the show really fell into place. It was almost like Sheridan needed to get a feel for the actors that he had. And once he realized, like, I just got to let Billy Bob and Ali Larda cook in every scene possible. This is the most I've liked Billy Bob Literally in 20 plus years.

[Chris Ryan]

The first two episodes, Ali Larder mostly just appears on FaceTime.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. Which was like she hadn't finished her previous job yet.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, what can you FaceTime in?

[Chris Ryan]

It would be like basically being like, we're going to have sengun. Just like, only, only, only check in from the locker room. He's not going to play at all. Yeah, it's an incredible performance by her. But you're right. Like, after the first two episodes, I think the show teaches you how to watch it, which is essentially, like, there are going to be three or four scenes where Billy Bob absolutely monologues and cooks. And the only time that doesn't happen is when Ham calls him to yell at him.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

And then there's all this domestic drama between Billy Bob's character, Tommy, and her character, his ex wife, now current wife. And it's just amazing. The funny thing is, if you notice that, like, no one's giving Taylor Sheridan notes. This is Andy's big thing, Greenwald's big thing. There are scenes where you're like, how much longer is this scene gonna go? Like the dinner scene from episode four, I think, where she makes the wild boar Bolognese. And then he's like, are you on your period? And there's just. And you're like, how fucking long is this happening for? And it feels like you're just, like, in some sort of experimental drama.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, all right, so let's unwind this. So Billy Bob, this is basically the same theme as what he struck away with, with Costner and Yellowstone.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

A really good, likable, charismatic actor who hadn't been really great in a role in a while. And then Sheridan just unlocks it.

[Chris Ryan]

He just wrote it for him. It's in his voice.

[Bill Simmons]

All of the things I love about Billy Bob Thornton. And even, like, there's a little of the Friday Night Lights coach in here.

[Chris Ryan]

A little bit of the NASA guy from Armageddon.

[Chris Mannix]

Right?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, just.

[Bill Simmons]

And this guy's been around forever. And when he's in the right role, he's perfect. But in this, he's, like, super perfect. Then Ally Larder, who, I think all of us who had the Varsity Blues run, then she had the Heroes run, and I think everybody likes her, but I hadn't seen her in anything. And this is. I was saying to you earlier, like, there's that story about Starship Troopers.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

That Casper Van Dieme, he thought he was in a serious drama, like a Spielberg movie. And everybody else knew what it was actually. And I don't know what Ally Larder thinks the show is, but whatever she's doing, I love it.

[Chris Ryan]

But the show seems to be bending towards her now. Like, in the beginning, I was like, this is insane. Like, she's an. It's a key performance. FaceTime, crying every scene. And now it seems like she is an integral part of the drama and is, like, in every scene, even when guys are getting absolutely murdered by falling pipes.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. She's Dion waiters multiplied by 700. And her and Billy Bob are great together.

[Chris Ryan]

What's weird is that Demi Moore is in this show.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And if you would watch the trailer or if it was just the call, she'd be like, yeah, Demi Moore is going to have a much bigger part in the show than Ali Larder.

[Bill Simmons]

Allie Larder's part is a hundred times bigger than Demi Moore's. Had eight lines. And they filmed her from like, 30 yards away in every scene.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And I don't know why she's in the show, other than maybe they needed the extra name. But so those two. And then the actor who plays Billy Bob's son in this.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, Jacob Laughlin. Yeah. So he was in this movie.

[Bill Simmons]

This is really good.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. He was in a movie a while back, this Jeff Nichols movie called Mud. That's really, really good. When he was a kid actor, and I haven't really seen him recently. And he's awesome.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Like, he is kind of like the Matt Saracen character. Like, that's a good. That's a good kind of like, son who wants to be an oil man, but doesn't want to do it on his dad's back. And he's just really soulful. Really good. It could be really bad. This show would not work if he wasn't doing a good job.

[Bill Simmons]

And he's. He's wiry and I don't know how tall he is, but yet still believable when he stands up for himself. And I was attached to him. Within two episodes, he starts hanging out the way. First of all, we did mention Michael Pena, who's in the credits in the first episode.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

And my shit detector's going off the whole time. Well, he does a real weird live.

[Chris Ryan]

Forever McBain speech in the middle of that episode.

[Bill Simmons]

But they basically did the same thing they did with Kyle Chandler on Kickstown. Yeah. Where they.

[Chris Ryan]

He was Dave Annabelle on Yellowstone.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. So he dies and then that sets off like his widow all of a sudden. And you just know. It's like, oh, man, this is going to go. Oh, his friends, the dead guy's friends, didn't like. They don't like where they. And you just kind of know.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But I still love it.

[Chris Ryan]

The. One of the best parts about this show, which is so refreshing, is that it's not a overall mystery or overall plot that you have to keep track of all these different moving pieces.

[Bill Simmons]

Great point.

[Chris Ryan]

You're just like, there's a problem every week.

[Bill Simmons]

Dead body in the oil well that we got to figure out. We got another clue.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, we are. It's. It's. It's just every week, it's like West Wing or like Grey's Anatomy or like any big, really successful drama, they just give you a problem that Billy Bob has to solve by the end of the episode or not, you know? Or he's like, we're fucked, and Jon Hamm's gonna get mad at me.

[Bill Simmons]

And I feel like he has complete handle on who his character is. What. What, like, his baggage is as a human being, who he has to answer to, that he can get mean. That's why episode six was so big, because it was like, I know that this. There's a dark side with this guy, and we haven't really seen it 100% in the show. And then in episode six, you see it, and the whole show's leading up to him confronting these guys who beat up his son. And the moment he locks in, you're just like, honestly, it's like watching, like, a Michael Mann movie or something.

[Chris Ryan]

It was awesome.

[Bill Simmons]

It was so good.

[Chris Ryan]

One other thing I wanted to mention is that I think I've realized that I'm a secret huge fan of shows where people have to travel a huge distance to have a very simple conversation. This was a big thing for Ozark, where it was like, I need to see you. And they'd have to drive all the way around the lake to the resort.

[Bill Simmons]

Or all the way back.

[Chris Ryan]

This scene, this show is basically like, they need to have a conversation. You have to get on a private plane and fly from the Permian Basin to Dallas.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

To get yelled at for five minutes.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

And I was just like, if we had that at the ringer, if the ringer was based in West Texas, and you were like, I'm going to need to talk to you. And I'm like, I got to go.

[Bill Simmons]

How fast can you get from Fort Worth to Houston?

[Chris Ryan]

The private plane leaves Permian. I fly to Dallas. You're like, I didn't much care for that Celtics team yesterday.

[Bill Simmons]

Let's talk about it. And like we said about Tatum.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I know you're emotional, but don't ever yell at me.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm your boss. This show checks so many boxes that just work for a TV show. Like, what is this world? This weird oil world? I don't really know this. Oh, now you're bringing me into it. Now I kind of feel like, what's it like for the crews that Work, you know, on these oil rigs. Or like, they're like, oh, this is like this whole little community with these little mini houses. Then it's like the ham part. What's it like if you own this thing?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Who's. Who do you deal with the ham? The ham part's interesting because I don't feel like that's fully baked yet. And I'm not sure how much time Ham had to film the show. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

But I think that he does a really good job explaining things for people who might be looking at this more from the business perspective. Like the two speeches he's given.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the one you talk about ham.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, ham. The one where he's like, this business is like constant crisis punctuated by extraordinary success. I'm like, that sounds like an incredible idea for a show. And two, like, when he's just like, I'm the bad guy, like, everybody hates. I've accepted the fact that the oil industry is the villain. So all my job is to do is keep oil between this number and this number.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, and then the lawyer.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Who was getting a little flirty with Billy Bob. And then Ally Lardis character squashed it. But she's just an assassin. And so in episode six, she goes to see the Widow, and they're like, here's the check. And then they're doing a little back and forth, and the Widow smartly asks, well, wait a second, what do you guys get out of this? And she's like, just lays it out as cold as possible. There's five. Or then the daughter is the other one. There's five or six really good characters that I want to know more about that I'm willing to go on a couple journeys with. But the most important thing to me, this is the best show Jon Hamm's ever done. You know, people say Mad Men.

[Chris Ryan]

It's gonna get aggregated.

[Bill Simmons]

No, no.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. That's going on hoopsite, people.

[Bill Simmons]

People say Mad Men. I say watch Landman for a couple episodes. Yeah, no, I'm, I'm psyched for him that, that I, I can't even tell. Like, maybe he only had, like, five shooting days in a month. I, I, Billy Bob seems to be the only one who is fully committed to the same.

[Chris Ryan]

Billy Bob's got to memorize, like, five pages of, of a monologue.

[Chris Mannix]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

It's. It's an incredible feat, athletically. I do agree. Ham seems to be always getting off a plane, getting off on his mobile phone and then hanging it up, and.

[Bill Simmons]

They'Re Like, John, can you film from 2 to 5? Yeah, we just need to get off a plane. You're yelling at somebody.

[Chris Ryan]

Ham was on Eisen and he was asking about how it was to shoot this. And he was like, great.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I put on a suit, I got off a plane.

[Bill Simmons]

I talk him to me more was like, I loved it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Two days. Shoot.

[Chris Ryan]

I think that this show does really remind me that it's okay for TV to be a lot of fun. Like, we have had a nice long stretch of prestige television that's very serious. Very. Like, this is about important issues. There are important issues in Lay a Man, but you can take them as seriously as you want. There is like at least three things in this each episode where you're like, what did I just watch?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, and the thing with Sheridan and he figured out he laid the groundwork for. With the first couple years of Yellowstone. He's made a bunch of shows, obviously, but to me, this is his apex. This is just like, he's taken all the lessons he's done on all these different shows and he's like, how could I make the most entertaining show possible about the oil world in Texas with. And just let some actors cook.

[Chris Ryan]

But the father son story is like, definitely really affecting. Like, I really, really like it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah. And the ex wife stuff, you know, that's not gonna last. How that's gonna go bad. But there's so many good touches. Like, she goes back to get divorced. Right in episode six.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. You gonna say the line?

[Bill Simmons]

Go ahead.

[Chris Ryan]

There's a. There's been a couple of lines that are.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah, pushing almost an R. Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

So she says, I may have to suck Victor's dick to get her.

[Bill Simmons]

Exactly. And he's. And he's like, well, bring your toothbrush. Yes. And she goes, there's a whole party in the back. But they. The other thing is, I like the houses. Like, it's just these crazy mansions you would never see in any other walk of life. They've done a good job with that. For Sheridan, though, I just feel like he's figured it out once and for all. I think this is going to be the biggest show he's ever had. And I know Yellowstone was the biggest show the last 10 years.

[Chris Ryan]

I. I honestly wouldn't be surprised. I wouldn't be surprised. I mean, I think that Yellowstone was like a phenomenon where there wasn't really anything like that. There was no Western on TV at that moment. I don't think this is a little bit more familiar to people, but I Think as it keeps going, they're probably only going to be. It's so popular. I wouldn't be surprised if some like, huge star does a guest star next year.

[Bill Simmons]

That's. I was going to bring that up.

[Chris Ryan]

Andy Garcia is supposed to be on this season. You know, like, it's going to be getting bigger.

[Bill Simmons]

That's the next iteration of this is some big ass stars coming in because that's some somewhat what happened with Yellowstone. But I think Yellowstone was a big show that we were all like, wait, is that a big show? And we kind of. People were kind of stealth watching.

[Chris Ryan]

No, people are actually watching Yellowstone. Yeah, right.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And then Covid, it felt like everybody caught up and then all of a sudden that became the biggest TV show. But, you know, it definitely went a little sideways once the Costner thing got weird.

[Chris Ryan]

You know what's crazy about this show too, is how fast they made a couple of the sets become like instantly recognizable and kind of iconic. Like the cafe that they all hang out at, the bar where it's like everyone's drinking all day long because they have like crazy shifts. And then like you said, the McMansion and the country club, you're kind of like, I already know this world. Like this is. It usually takes a show like years to be like, oh, and you know this place and you know that place. And it's like, no. They instantly kind of hit all of that stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. So this is like there's the prestige TV stuff that we talk about that we have the podcast named after it. And there's a certain like just elite.

[Chris Ryan]

Scripted White Lotus kind of thing.

[Bill Simmons]

And then there's like the Yellowstone side of stuff. There's this middle ground between those two worlds. That's the hardest thing to like straddle both lines. And I feel like this is one of the only shows that has done that.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You know where it's like this show is like not far away from being like a real prestige show, but it doesn't want to be.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It wants to look funny and crazy and entertaining and goofy.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So where does it go?

[Chris Ryan]

Where does it go? Where? From here.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. The rest of the season, I think.

[Chris Ryan]

That they'll probably keep playing out like the adversarial relationship between Monty and Tommy. But I think that the cool thing about this series is that it'll probably like Yellowstone, where there's like a big bad every season. And so there will be like a big plot for each season, but all the parts will stay the same.

[Bill Simmons]

One of the big lessons I'VE learned that if my son ever watches this is maybe don't get involved with the widow who has a kid. Just, just, just point blank.

[Chris Ryan]

What other lessons.

[Bill Simmons]

Who has friends that are threatening you with guns? The moment you like, spend. You're just making your front yard. There's multiple. Maybe like, fine. There's lots of fish in the sea, buddy. Yeah, no, I like. I think all the actors in this are really good too. That's the other thing.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, she's good. The. The actress who plays the widow all across.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And they. The daughter is just gone for.

[Chris Ryan]

She's the sister of a woman who is on the Bachelorette.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, is that true?

[Chris Ryan]

And yes. Is 28. I mean, she's 28 years old. She's playing like an 18 year old. I. It is. It is an extraordinary bit that she's just like, I'm nude.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

This house. While like the lawyer guy is just wearing a new.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So who. What's the competition? All time for a show like this.

[Chris Ryan]

All time.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm saying like that middle ground between prestige and like just going for it. I'm trying to think of other shows that were like this because like White Lotus was way more on the prestige side, you know, was goofy.

[Chris Ryan]

Having a succession is way more prestigious.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. It's just. This is the hardest, hardest one to thread.

[Chris Ryan]

I think it's more. It would be something that like David E. Kelly did. It would be like big little lies. Maybe that's good. Like that kind of like this is very pop. It's got big people in it. People will just like looking at the furniture.

[Bill Simmons]

But this show's literally for everybody. I know there's not one person in my life who wouldn't like Landman. And if they didn't like Landman, I don't. I'd have to reevaluate my.

[Chris Ryan]

Or you would at least be like, you would like a part of this. You like the oil stuff. You like the. The Cooper stuff. You'll like the love affair between Ali Larder and Billy Bob Thornton. There's something in here that you will like.

[Bill Simmons]

I couldn't get my dad to watch it and. Cause he's like, ah, Yellowstone. I got sports. I got a lot of talk. I'm like, dad, if you don't fucking watch Landman, I'm gonna like fly to Boston and I'm gonna just tie you up in front of the sofa and make you watch episodes.

[Chris Ryan]

That's how he checked it out.

[Bill Simmons]

So he started watching. Of course he's on my Paramount, because he doesn't know how to pay for any streamer. And so he's like, yeah, I watched the first two. It's good. And then he watched the third one. He's like, third one was good. And then the fourth one, he's like, texted me, did you see Landman? So I went to watch the one last night after I did my pod on Sunday night. It had already been watched. I had to, like, start it over. My dad was just like, right, yeah. So I was like, oh, he's all in.

[Chris Ryan]

My mom's like that with Lioness. She was like, I've heard about this Lioness show. And I'm like, yeah, I have.

[Bill Simmons]

Right?

[Chris Ryan]

And then all of a sudden, it was like all my episodes were done.

[Bill Simmons]

So do you think Taylor Sheridan took, like, the limitless pill? There's no other explanation.

[Chris Ryan]

So he has now written at least 40 hours of television.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't understand. I don't understand how he does it.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't get it.

[Bill Simmons]

Nobody. Is there other people? Does he have, like, five people under him?

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know. But this is. We haven't seen a run like this in Sorkin where Sorkin wrote every episode of West Wing.

[Bill Simmons]

Can you imagine?

[Chris Ryan]

And this show, honestly, it kind of reminds me of West Wing a little bit. It's a lot of people, like, walking and talking and solving problems.

[Bill Simmons]

That's a good comparison. Yeah. And West Wing was close to the Prestige side, too, but it was just a really well done.

[Chris Ryan]

Three good plots per episode of West Wing.

[Chris Mannix]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Be like an overarching thing where it's like the President's sick or whatever. But, like, for the most part, it would be like, Josh is going to solve something, Sam's gonna do something, and, like, CJ's gonna do something. And then you get a big speech from the President.

[Bill Simmons]

I just picture Sheridan in the writers room and he's like, man, there is no writer's room.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He's by himself with a dog and he's just like, man, I haven't. I haven't had anyone blow up or had some terrible thing happen in an episode and a half. Yeah, I'm just gonna have this guy step on a bunch of pipes and then fall under and get crushed.

[Chris Ryan]

I'll tell you what is unprecedented. It's unprecedented for someone to have the biggest show on TV end while possibly one of the biggest shows on TV is beginning. And you're responsible for both of them. I can't think of another time that's happened. Unbelievable that you're Writing both of them.

[Bill Simmons]

It'd be funny if we had, like, the first take type of infrastructure for TV showrunners. And it was just like, is Sheridan the goat that's coming up next?

[Chris Ryan]

I thought you were gonna be like, first take, but for, like, actual Landman.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, that would be amazing.

[Chris Ryan]

Cooper have kept it in his pants coming up.

[Bill Simmons]

That would be great.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Just an entire first take about the wind power.

[Chris Ryan]

Does it use more energy than we think?

[Bill Simmons]

What's Ali Larda's character's name?

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, I can't even remember. I just refer to her as Ali Lardo.

[Bill Simmons]

She just need a name. I think her name is Ally Larder on the show.

[Chris Ryan]

Angela.

[Bill Simmons]

Angela, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Because Ali Larder's Instagram. She's like, Angela's back.

[Bill Simmons]

Episode 4. What a win for. I'm so happy for her. I'm happy for Billy Bob. I'm happy for everyone on the show. I'm happy for us.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

How much? So it's 10 episodes?

[Chris Ryan]

I think so. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

The odds of Mallory loving the show are 100%.

[Chris Ryan]

She loves. She texted me on Saturday saying, Six hours to lay a man. I'm like, Lamar Jackson's on.

[Bill Simmons]

I think this is the most ringer y show that's come out since probably White Lotus. So when was that? 2021.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

This is a beloved piece of art.

[Bill Simmons]

Watch Landman. It's really good. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Chris Mannix. Thanks to Chris Ryan, thanks to Kyle Creighton and Steve Ceruti. As always, thanks to Jack Sanders for helping out last night with Craig Korlbeck. As we tape some stuff with cr and I will be back on Thursday with another podcast. See you then. I don't have a few years with him. Must be 21 plus in President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in President D.C. gambling problem. Call 100 Gambler, visit rg-help.com, call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplianma.org or call 800-327-550 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text hopeny.