The Pacers Survive (Again!), Game 7 Thoughts, the Lakers Sale and KD Rumors 9.0 With Zach Lower and Rob Mahoney

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Bill Simmons Podcast Episode: The Pacers Survive (Again!), Game 7 Thoughts, the Lakers Sale and KD Rumors 9.0 With Zach Lowe and Rob Mahoney
Release Date: June 20, 2025

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1. Introduction

In this episode of The Bill Simmons Podcast, host Bill Simmons is joined by NBA experts Zach Lowe and Rob Mahoney to dissect the intense Game 7 of the 2025 NBA Finals between the Indiana Pacers and the Oklahoma City Thunder. The discussion delves into the Pacers' remarkable defensive performance, the Thunder's offensive struggles, historic Game 7 parallels, and shifts focus to significant off-court developments, including the Lakers' ownership sale and ongoing Kevin Durant (KD) trade rumors.

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2. Game 7 of the 2025 NBA Finals

a. Pacers' Defensive Dominance

The conversation opens with Bill Simmons expressing surprise at the Thunder's lackluster performance against the Pacers. Zach Lowe commends the Pacers' unexpected excellence, stating:

“Number one, the Pacers are awesome. I didn't see this coming. I thought OKC was going to clinch it today.”
[03:31]

Rob Mahoney echoes this sentiment, highlighting the Pacers' collective talent and defensive prowess:

“The Pacers are really talented, they're really capable, they're really smart, and they just figure out how to dominate a game like this on defense, of all things.”
[04:28]

b. Thunder's Offensive Struggles

Zach Lowe critiques the Thunder's offensive inefficiency, pointing out their poor shooting and lack of assists:

“They lost this game because their offense was miserable and Indiana won the turnover battle and they had no assists and no threes.”
[04:28]

Bill Simmons adds context by comparing the current Game 7 to previous games where key players like Domantas Sabonis (Dort) and Caruso were absent, questioning if injuries to Tyrese Halliburton impacted the Thunder's performance:

“Were they doped a little bit by this Halliburton injury situation? It almost seemed like they were surprised that he had that in them.”
[05:01]

c. Key Players and Tactical Strategies

The trio delves into the standout performances of Pacers players like T.J. McConnell and Pascal Siakam, emphasizing their crucial roles in stifling the Thunder's offense. Rob Mahoney praises coach Rick Carlisle's adaptability:

“Rick Carlisle modulates better than any other coach out there and he understands all of the trade-offs in the game better than almost anyone else.”
[07:43]

Zach Lowe highlights T.J. McConnell's extraordinary playmaking:

“If McConnell were a free agent coming off this series, like $30 million, oh my God, like you could see.”
[08:55]

d. Historical Parallels and Game 7 Predictions

Bill Simmons draws comparisons to historic Game 7s, noting the emotional weight and often dramatic conclusions:

“Game seven ... they're usually really close games. They're usually really tense, they're ugly, they're not exceptionally well played.”
[37:25]

Rob Mahoney and Zach Lowe discuss the unpredictability of Game 7 outcomes, with Rob predicting a narrow victory for OKC:

“OKC by a little.”
[77:27]

Bill Simmons adds his own prediction, expecting a close game with OKC ultimately pulling ahead:

“I'm going to go OKC. Rock fight close game for three plus quarters and then maybe they pull away and win by the seven to nine range.”
[77:41]

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3. Lakers' Ownership Sale

a. Details of the Sale

The discussion transitions to the significant development of the Los Angeles Lakers being sold. Bill Simmons outlines the ownership change, noting Mark Walter's acquisition:

“He slapped on the 4.8 billion. It seems like it's 10, but it's half that. It's still like a crazy amount of money for a team that doesn't own an arena.”
[59:22]

Rob Mahoney reflects on the implications of this sale, drawing parallels to other franchise ownership transfers:

“There is a whole class of NBA owners and governors who are now selling and migrating out of that business.”
[60:43]

b. Future Implications

Zach Lowe speculates on how new ownership might transform the Lakers, especially in terms of operational investments:

“...if the Dodgers professionalizes the Lakers in the same way... there is a lot of room on the margins to do things that are meaningful to your bottom line as an organization.”
[66:16]

Bill Simmons expresses concerns about potential shifts in the Lakers' management and strategic direction:

“And it will be interesting to see if what this group was able to do with the Dodgers professionalizes the Lakers in the same way. What that’s going to mean.”
[60:41]

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4. Kevin Durant (KD) Trade Rumors

a. Trade Speculations

The conversation shifts to ongoing rumors surrounding KD's potential trade. Bill Simmons and Rob Mahoney discuss the complexities of orchestrating a trade that satisfies both Durant and the involved franchises:

“The offers are not good. And they made the classic mistake of basically what happened with David Griffin last year in New Orleans... Maybe it's just Jabulani Smith and Jalen Green, and Jalen Green gets rerouted somewhere...”
[68:27]

Rob Mahoney emphasizes the challenges in facilitating a trade that aligns with both Durant's aspirations and team strategies:

“I think it’s quite challenging. And, like, I can understand, like, Houston for Kevin Durant...”
[69:21]

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5. NBA Draft Pick Speculations

a. Ace Bailey Saga

The trio delves into the uncertainties surrounding the NBA draft, particularly focusing on the mysterious case of Ace Bailey:

“There are seven different Ace Bailey conspiracies floating around the league and the top 10 teams in the draft.”
[73:05]

Bill Simmons ponders the potential impact of Bailey's draft position on various teams:

“If Ace Bailey is now has gone from number three pick to where is he going to get picked?”
[75:10]

Zach Lowe discusses the unpredictability of draft strategies in light of shifting pick positions:

“If it's unpredictable ... Zach, you think going forward with the Dodgers owning the Lakers basically and Luka Doncic in there, this is a pretty safe bet to be a dominant franchise now...”
[63:24]

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6. Final Predictions and Closing Remarks

In the concluding segments, the hosts make their final predictions for Game 7 and briefly touch on prospective NBA scheduling formats. They express admiration for the Pacers' resilience and defensive strategy, regardless of the game's outcome.

Rob Mahoney sums up his emotional investment:

“If they do win, they would be probably like the team of my lifetime, to be honest with you, in terms of the run that they’ve been on.”
[78:41]

Zach Lowe concludes with a balanced outlook, highlighting the unpredictable nature of the series:

“OKC wins a very close game. That would seem to be the most likely of many, many different scenarios.”
[79:26]

Bill Simmons wraps up by reflecting on the unique atmosphere of Game 7s and expressing enthusiasm for future episodes:

“Miss that place. Great milkshakes in the Garden Square arena, whatever the hell that place is called.”
[81:52]

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Zach Lowe: “Number one, the Pacers are awesome. I didn't see this coming. I thought OKC was going to clinch it today.”
  [03:31]

• Rob Mahoney: “The Pacers are really talented, they're really capable, they're really smart, and they just figure out how to dominate a game like this on defense, of all things.”
  [04:28]

• Zach Lowe: “They lost this game because their offense was miserable and Indiana won the turnover battle and they had no assists and no threes.”
  [04:28]

• Rob Mahoney: “Rick Carlisle modulates better than any other coach out there and he understands all of the trade-offs in the game better than almost anyone else.”
  [07:43]

• Bill Simmons: “If Indiana wins game seven, it will be the first team mentioned when we talk about like the Hickory High type, craziest sports movie type teams that actually won the NBA title, they'll...”
  [78:13]

• Rob Mahoney: “If they do win, they would be probably like the team of my lifetime, to be honest with you, in terms of the run that they’ve been on.”
  [78:41]

• Zach Lowe: “OKC wins a very close game. That would seem to be the most likely of many, many different scenarios.”
  [79:26]

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Conclusion

This episode provides an in-depth analysis of the pivotal Game 7 in the 2025 NBA Finals, celebrating the Indiana Pacers' defensive mastery and scrutinizing the Oklahoma City Thunder's offensive shortcomings. Additionally, it sheds light on significant off-court developments, including the transformative sale of the Los Angeles Lakers and the intricate trade scenarios surrounding Kevin Durant. The hosts offer insightful predictions and reflections, making it a must-listen for NBA enthusiasts seeking comprehensive coverage of the Finals' climax and its broader implications.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra, the official beer partner of the NBA. What do I love about the NBA championship? Well, first of all, I love when the Celtics win, but that's not happening this year. But you know what I really love? The drama, the pressure. Everything goes to the highest level. Guys are injured, guys are banged up, guys are hungry. It just brings out the best of everything. And Michelob Ultra is helping you celebrate like a champion with a chance to win your own limited edition championship bottle, just like those gifted to the NBA players during the championship parade. Enter now at michelobaltra.com Courtside Champs bottles Michelob Ultra Courtside Victor Solomon Champs Bottle Sweepstakes. No purchase necessary. Open to US residents 21/ends June 22, 2025. See Official [e-mail] Rules for free entry, prizes and details. Message and data rates may apply. Void where prohibited. The Bill Simmons podcast is presented by State Farm. We are also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network where I put up a new rewatchable is actually on Tuesday night we did Marathon man because we're doing New York City Month Marathon man, awesome movie with Dustin Hoffman and Sir Laurence Olivier. That is up. You can watch that on The Ringer Movies YouTube channel as well. Monday we're doing Die Hard with a Vengeance, the third Die Hard movie, 1995, Bruce Willis, Sam Jackson, also a New York movie. It is the 30th anniversary of that movie too this summer. So that's gonna be a really fun one. It's gonna be me and Van Lathan and Chris Ryan and you can watch that as a video podcast on Spotify as well. You can watch this as a video podcast on Spotify. You can also watch us on YouTube where tonight we went live right after game six of the 2025 NBA Finals with me and Rob Mahoney and Zach Lowe. That was on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel, but you can get it anywhere you get podcasts and we're going to run it right now after we take this break and we hear from our friends from Pearl Jam. This episode is presented by State Farm. It's no secret that great teams need great teammates. I've been saying this for years and when it comes to insurance, State Farm. State Farm is there to help you find the right coverage for your home, car and more. Whether you need an in person or digital assist, they're ready. When life hits you with a full court press. Get a game plan that helps fit your life. Talk to State Farm today. State Farm with the assist Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. All right, we're live on YouTube. It's Bill Simmons podcast. Zach Low is here. Rob Mahoney is there. It's the first time for the three of us together. It's a little. It's a little new. Almost like OKC playing defense today where it looked like they'd never played defense before. Zach, what was your big takeaway? Because I don't understand what OKC was doing in this game with the tournament, the trophy, everything sitting two and a half hours away and it was a no show.

[Zach Lowe]

Two big takeaways. Number one, the Pacers are awesome. I didn't see this coming. I thought OKC was going to clinch it today. It wouldn't have surprised me if OKC won rather easily in Indiana's. Like, no, we don't go out like that. Calf strain, whatever. Tyrese Halliburton, perfect balance between kind of being an off ball decoy and then taking the reins when it made sense and just TJ McConnell doing T. Got a McConnell, another McConnell. And they're just awesome. Second takeaway. OKC played like a team that knew what was at stake and was a little bit nervous. And I thought Shai forced it. Really, like forced it early. Some bad turnover, some bad shots. Just weren't. They were just skittish and not in a rhythm. And you know what? It is the biggest game that any of them have ever played, and it looked like the biggest game that any of them ever played. They lost this game because their offense was miserable and Indiana won the turnover battle and they had no assists and no threes. Same formula for losing a lot of these games for them.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, if their offense was terrible, it's because the Pacers made it terrible. And if Oklahoma City didn't show up, it's because the Pacers rescinded their invitation in this game. I think we talk a lot about the connectivity of the Pacers on offense, but I think this is just one of the most connected teams, period, that we've seen certainly this season, even relative to the Thunder, which is really saying something. But even in recent memory, other teams have had more talent that have been incredibly connected. The Pacers are really talented, they're really capable, they're really smart, and they just figure out how to dominate a game like this on defense, of all things.

[Bill Simmons]

End of the first half, Indies up 22. OKC is 1 for 11 from 3. They have three assists. They have zero steals. And that's where I bring up the why didn't they show up thing? Because, Zach, we were at game four and Dort and Caruso just put their imprint all over that game from the get go, and especially in the second half. And Dort was such a beast. And neither of those guys were there at all in the game today. And when you take that out and Indy had some room to run, I guess the bigger question for me is were they rope a doped a little bit by this Halliburton injury situation. It almost seemed like they were surprised that he had that in them, which I. Which I didn't really understand. They weren't, they weren't attacking him. Like the game we went to game four, Zach, where they were picking him up full court and really trying to like, you know, bully him around, take him out of the game. It was almost like they didn't understand how he was doing what he was doing, which was kind of how I felt because by the time we got to this game, it seemed like he was going to be rolled out in a wheelchair and was just going to limp around. It wasn't like that at all.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, weird game across the board, right? Like the stakes, the pressure, the championship on the line for you. And not necessarily on the line, you have another chance, but it's there, it's sitting there. You know, you know, they're bringing in the champagne and they're going to have the plastic wrap over the lockers. And you also know the best player on their team is injured to some degree. And is he going to play? Is he not going to play? How well is he going to play? Is he going to change the way that he plays? I thought they went at him a little bit. When Indiana was on defense in the first half, had a couple successful possessions. I would just do it every single time. I thought they, you know, they poked around here and there with some interesting matchups and poked at different places, but I don't think they poked at him enough. But look, I mean, Indiana played awesome.

[Bill Simmons]

They.

[Zach Lowe]

This was an awesome defensive performance from a team that has gelled in to a really good defensive team. And look, Oklahoma City got its blowout win in game two. This is the first real Pacers blowout win. The first. The biggest lead of the series was 12. They announced that on the first half of the broadcast. And the series is now like pretty even. I think the final margin going into game seven is Oklahoma City plus five over six games. Like, it's a pretty. It's crazy. They were up. It was plus 24 coming into tonight. They won by 19. So if my math is right, it's plus 5 like it. It's a pretty even series. And again, my takeaway, just as it was after game one, is Indiana is just awesome. Something about the way they play, like the on paper gap might be, oh, they're, you know, plus 4 net rating versus plus 13 net rating versus plus 8 net rating. Whatever that gap is, their style of play shrinks it down to a minimal amount and they're just an awesome, awesome team.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think part of the reason for that, I was thinking about it during this game is who would I want to coach a game like this more than Rick Carlisle? And it's the combination of when your star is injured. We've seen him coach incredible runs with other teams with guys in and out of the lineup. It's operating at a perceived talent deficit. It's operating against the best defense we've seen in modern NBA history. I just think that Rick Carlisle modulates better than any other coach out there and he understands all of the trade offs in the game better than almost anyone else. We saw it, like with Andrew Nemhard in this one, kind of scaling back.

[Zach Lowe]

His defensive pressure huge on offense and.

[Rob Mahoney]

He, like, he had to be that big for them to be great. And they were able to pull that off because, like, I think Carlisle coaches everything on a sliding scale, like nothing is too precious to change. And at the same time, they're able to adjust things in very controlled ways without giving up who they are and giving up what the identity of the Pacers has been.

[Bill Simmons]

With all that said, be honest. When OKC went up 8, 2, 102 in Indyck and Indy called timeout and it was like, oh man, this is going to be sad. I really like this indie team. And then all of a sudden, Nemahard had eight straight. T.J. mcConnell came in and had. Did he have a full McConnell.

[Zach Lowe]

Zach, if, like, if McConnell were a free agent coming off this series, like $30 million, oh my God, like you could see. Or some team like Brooklyn would be like, you know what, forget Giannis, we're throwing the max at T.J. mcConnell. This is crazy what he's doing.

[Bill Simmons]

So NBA University, which is a very good Twitter account, he tweeted this and I have no idea if it was a joke or not. He asked if Brunson was used like Jalen Brunson and an offense revolved around him the same way the Knicks do. You did the Jalen Brunson offense, would it be a good offense? And I was like, I don't Know if you're joking or not, but I'm going down the road of thinking about this.

[Zach Lowe]

The TJ McConnell shot diet is unlike anything in the NBA. Nobody takes these shots where it's like you go under a screen because that's what you're supposed to do. And he just dribbles and meanders and he take eight foot like full on jump shots, like eight feet from the rim, two hands on the ball, two feet off the ground. Like with every burst of energy I.

[Bill Simmons]

Can, he gets it into fallaways. He has those. He is the three point shot that takes two seconds to unleash. What a breakout star. But I mean we've. Anyone who watches league pass and watches basketball, we've all liked them.

[Rob Mahoney]

Sure.

[Bill Simmons]

It's always a question of. It felt like he was another guy on this Pacers team who was available for like three years, but not totally and nobody went and got him. I remember arguing two years ago that the spurs should have gotten him for the first year. Wemby. And then it was a combo of oh, Indy would never trade him. And then it's like San Antonio could do better than like nobody was happy with the trade idea. Him and then Nemhardt. Rob, there's no other player in the league like Nemhardt at this point that I can think of.

[Rob Mahoney]

Unbelievable. Yeah, like his ability to raise his game in exactly these moments. Obviously throughout the playoffs we've seen him just be a totally different player every time he gets to the postseason. But they needed both of those guys to do a lot of ball handling, a lot of creation. Like TJ McConnell has to not just take those crazy, improbable, like high vaulting shots, but he had just stir shit up constantly on offense so that Halliburton could be a decoy, so that Halliburton could be at some points like more of a catch and shoot player. And I think the only reason any of that works because you have these other two ball handling guards just sitting there and you can scale up their minutes, you can scale up their responsibility. And I think Nemhard in particular, one thing he never gets enough credit for, he's such a great low risk ball handler. Like he just does not make a lot of stupid mistakes. He does not make a lot of crazy, audacious passes. Although he did throw a beauty no look and transition to Miles Turner in this game, which is about as flashy as Andrew Nemhard gets. And I salute it. Those guys are absolutely essential in a game like this and they're going to Be absolutely essential again in Game seven. Even with Tyrese Halliburton having a couple of days and a couple of icy hot patches and however many, you know, Advil he can take between now and then.

[Zach Lowe]

I got to do my thing right now. I got to do the thing that I do every Pacers game, Every Pacers podcast. How many minutes are we in now? We haven't said his name yet. We haven't said his name yet. 9 minutes in Pascal Siakam. Just doing everything for this team. 16, 13, three assists. Defended J Dub a little bit, which we hadn't seen much in the series. Defends anybody you need him to defend. Got out in transition early in the game and kind of forced his way into the game and forced the Pacers into the league. This is what we do after every game. It's like, Halberd McConnell, the Ben. 1 game, it's Mather, and then we're 25 minutes. It's like, oh, yeah. Was he the best player on the Pacers again today? Maybe. Arguably. I don't know. But we just. We never lead with him. And he's just always there, humming in the background, doing stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

And especially in the first quarter. There was a couple moments in that first quarter that looked a little rocky for them, and he was like, I got this, guys. It's funny you mentioned Matheran. I'm not positive he played in the first half.

[Zach Lowe]

He did. He came in.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he come in for, like, a split second. Because in the fourth quarter, when he came back in, I checked the stats and he had played six minutes.

[Rob Mahoney]

I thought you meant spiritually. You weren't sure if he had played in the first half.

[Bill Simmons]

No, no, no. He literally, like, played, I don't know, less than 10 minutes. But this was a guy who was the star of the game in Game three. But this is like a classic example, Rob, of how fucking weird this Pacers team is. This pacers team has 15 playoff wins. This will be the 20th game seven that we've ever had, and only four road teams have ever won a game seven. And they now have a chance to be the fifth.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, if there was going to be a fifth, I would think it would probably look a lot like these Indiana Pacers, and they would do similarly improbable shit. And they would do things like, for example, dominate a game in which they shoot 41% from the field, and they just kind of hummed along and they wrecked this thing on defense. They have every single thing that they need somehow. And I think one of. One of the joys for me in watching this team grow and evolve and become who they are is like seeing the situational awareness of guys like Ben Matheran, like Aaron Neesmith, like Miles Turner, just like tick up and up and up and up. And it's not that they don't make mistakes, but like Aaron east and Miles Turner are not huge passers. They're not pass first players. They certainly were not profiled that way for previous teams, whether in Indiana or otherwise. And yet you put them in this system for long enough and they just become a part of that DNA and they just start making really smart decisions. And the Pacers are a team that does not make sense in so many different ways, including the fact that their offense, it's so many players running into the same spaces on the floor in a way that should not work for anybody else. And yet it's Pascal Siakam making a dump off pass to Neesmith at just the right time that it becomes an and one. Like I don't know how else to explain them other than you have to see it to believe it.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, and then you're getting, I mean a pretty abominable shooting series from Turner. Zach, I don't know if I don't know. He was 1 for 9 today in the two Indiana games, games three and four. I think he was 5 for 20. So that means he was 6 for 29 in the three home games. That makes no sense at all. I felt like all his shots were open for the most part. OKC was happy than taking them and yet I thought he had some really big defensive moments in this game and was weirdly impactful even though he could shoot.

[Zach Lowe]

We blocked Chet on the three and I just thought Indiana's scramble rotations when they needed to get out in rotation were just on the money. They did not miss rotations. They were on time. They closed out. They closed out like to the level of the feet when they needed to. They closed out short when they needed to. They ran guys off the line when they needed to. Just a dialed in performance. And like Miles Turner and OB Toppin are like on the seesaw. Like one. It's like even Steven one plays bad, the other goes like five of seven from three or whatever. OB Toppin, second leading scorer in the game today. OB Toppin, first leading scorer in the game. MVP Shea Gil Alexander led all scores with 21 points. Did not feel like it. I mean he got a couple little bursts of momentum when they got him the ball at the nail. Eight turnovers for sga. If you watched them back. A couple of them were passes that you could assign like 60% of the turnover to him and 40% of the turnover to the guy on the other end of the pass. But just, I just didn't like his game for the most part today. I don't feel like he played a controlled like championship level. I thought J Dub outplayed him in the first half and looked like the steadier of the two, frankly.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I thought two assists too.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I thought, I thought J Dub was okay. Shay, as you said. Like it just didn't feel like that kind of Shay game that you had won in the moment like this. And then there just wasn't any connective tissue. Like all the stuff that rounds out the Thunder offense, whether it's like a great Chet game or a good bench game or a good three point shooting game or any of that transition offense, none of it was there. But yeah, credit to Miles Turner who I thought like just had Chet straight up in hell on some of these possessions. And then also the Pacer Smalls who Chad just could not exploit really at all in this game. He was missing, missing jumpers, he was missing dunks. Could not make an imprint on it really in any, in any fashion at all. And he's gotta find some way. It doesn't have to be with scoring, but he has to be more of a force than this.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I don't know if his contract run has been helped or hurt. Probably like slightly hurt. But on the other hand, like I think he's been a winning basketball player for a lot of stretches.

[Zach Lowe]

Unbelievable defensive player. Even, even the baskets they got on him on switches today were like, he made those pretty tough. Looks like Nemhard had the one where he had to take the ball to the other of the rim and lofted high off the glass. It was great. Defensive player didn't have it on offense today.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I don't know what relative of conspiracy build this is.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh boy.

[Bill Simmons]

And I got to come up with a name for it. There was two kind of non basketball things going on with this three day rest between game five and game six. One was just a lot of smoke being blown toward OKC, which sometimes over 72 hours and then you're up, you got one more game. The best guy on the other team's hurt. You can get, you can get a little comfortable, right. I almost feel like they would have been better off if this game was just Wednesday, the three day break and just being like, yeah, yeah, yeah, ties hurt. But like we just we just play defense. It's. We'll be fine. There's that one thing. And then I remember somebody with the Celtics mentioned this to me last year, by the way, it was 15 minutes before I brought up the Celtics.

[Zach Lowe]

Siakam beat the Celtics.

[Bill Simmons]

He threw the pot, beat the Celtics. They were up three nothing in Dallas, Game four, if they win, what are we doing? If we win, where's the party going to? And you start planning stuff. And it's not just the players, but it's the organization. And teams can deny it. They can say it's not a real thing, but I'm positive it's a thing because I was in Dallas watching it happen. Your brain just start, like I think with the Celtics last year, their plan was to go to Miami after the game to do all the trophy stuff and then jet to Miami. And they had a setup. And it's like your mind drifts like a tiny bit and all of a sudden your focus is off. And I don't know, the OKC seemed to me like a team today, that the focus was off from this team that was just a team of piranha. They were not piranha today.

[Rob Mahoney]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

And I don't think, I mean, honestly, Indiana can win game seven in okc if OKC plays defense like that again. They can again.

[Zach Lowe]

I thought the offense was. And the pain inflicted by the Pacers defense was almost as big, if not bigger of a story to me than Oklahoma City's shortcomings on defense. But a question I would ask you to, as we dig into that very thing is like, if you. If you look back at this game, before you watch this game, the how of. Like, how did in. In the actual non garbage the first three quarters, the non garbage quarters, I think the Pacers had like five turnovers or six turnovers total. So as. As you watch that game, it's now, it's now 20 minutes into the rear view. How did they manage to protect the ball so well against this defense? Like, what were they doing or not doing to. To. To like, it's not like Oklahoma City is not trying to get turnovers, not swarming at the rim. Like, what did they do to do that?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think so. It was Almost, I think 30 minutes of game time before the Thunder had their first steal. Like, even those minimal turnovers were all dead ball side out, like taking all the momentum out of the possession. I think a big part of it. And some of Indiana's, like, most successful stretches in the series have been obviously the kind of freewheeling way that they like to execute wears down all kinds of teams, mixes things up for all kinds of teams. The moments where they've kind of simplified and attacked in some straighter lines. And they are one of the most dedicated teams in terms of, like feeding their bigs against Smalls, for example. When Pascal or Turner get that seal inside, they are looking for those guys. But it applies in lots of different ways to attack. I think there's. There's a way in which making Tyrese Halliburton the decoy and running some more traditional kind of basic action, weird as that sounds against a defense as ferocious as Oklahoma City, kind of simplified things in a way that simplified the reads that they were making and led to fewer of those, like, I'm just caught and don't have anywhere to pass possessions that they were so guilty of in game five.

[Bill Simmons]

So I agree with everything Rob just said. And I was writing this down over and over again in my notes as the game was going along. OKC just wasn't pressuring them the same way they weren't meeting them up at half court like they were, especially in the second half of game four. And then I thought the first half of game five where they were basically making them start the offense 35ft from the basket, that just. Indiana was starting the offense wherever they wanted in this game. And it never, ever, the pressure was never an issue in this game.

[Rob Mahoney]

How much of that was. They got called for a lot of early fouls, and I wonder how much of that was like they just started kind of pulling back a little bit, whether it was to avoid foul trouble or whatever you had to. And ultimately it just kind of facilitated the flow of the game for the Pacers.

[Bill Simmons]

We said that after game four, right when we were talking about once Dort and Crusoe were getting away with the physicality, the game flipped once they realized that it was basically a football game. It was not a football game today.

[Zach Lowe]

Caruso, by the way, an improbable -33 while he was on the floor. J Dub, -40 like the thunder. Just don't ever have that happen to them. My answer, to answer my own question, I thought they were, like, very smartly selective on throwing entry passes. Like, oh, Kayson Wallace is fronting Pascal Siakam. You know what? We're like, let's pull it back out. They threw a few, but I thought that, like, they were like, much more cautious in just saying this is like a 50, 50 chance they're going to steal this. Let's just reset the Offense do something different.

[Bill Simmons]

Yep, that's a really good point because we talked about this couple games ago when SGA or Wallace was on somebody in the paint, like a bigger guy, and they would rope Indiana and throw in the entry pass and every time they would tip it or jump around. And today we didn't see those passes. So that might have been part of it. I still feel like I, I promise you, Dagnaut. Who's a pretty quiet guy. I don't know if either of you have a feel for him, but I, I, he, he, he'll go nuts when he watches the defense tomorrow. It's like, this is just not who we are, guys. If we're going to win the title, we gotta take it. Um, what do you, why, why are you making a face, Ryan?

[Rob Mahoney]

I, I really think it was the offense. More like this was, this was the worst Thunder offensive game by the, like, that's not me hyperbolizing. That is the point shooting, by the numbers. Their worst offensive game of the entire season. Like that is, that's what the data says in terms of their efficiency in this game. And now some of that is coming from the other side of the ball. They're obviously bleeding into one another and like, you're not getting the free points if you're not forcing turnovers in exactly the way we've been talking about. But yeah, they have to be better in the half court too. Like they have to find ways ultimately to score against this Pacers defense. And like, you got to give Andrew Nemhardt a ton of credit for that. You have to give the rotations, as Zach was talking about, pinpoint, really precise execution. Like that is, that's what it takes to win finals games like this. And I thought they were just more on that level than the Thunder were.

[Bill Simmons]

You know what the answer might be? It might have been their offense and their defense because they were down by 30 after.

[Zach Lowe]

Turns out you get down by 30. It's, it's, it's your offense, your defense, the other team playing awesome. That's how you get a 30 point blowout in the NBA Finals.

[Bill Simmons]

But they're you, they're getting what, 20 extra points a game off steals. And you know, all that, that I do feel like that would get them going. And totally I feel like Dort and Caruso to me are the engines of this team because they always know for the most part in the vicinity of what they're going to get from sga. And then Jalen Williams has just gotten better as the playoffs went along. His minus 40 today notwithstanding. Not to mention three days of Scottie Pippen comparisons, including on this podcast. After Game five, Scotty's like, hey guys, settle down. Let's have him. Let's have him win one first. But as we head to Game seven, I'm trying to figure out what OKC would have learned from this game. From how do we fix the offensive side standpoint, Zach? Cause SGA had a couple where he drove left and he kind of got swallowed up, which I haven't seen many times this year where he, you know, he didn't get the push off stuff. He didn't get his at the rim stuff. It was weird.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, that. So that's going to be a little mini battle is that the Pacers have toggled on and off throughout the series. We are going to double Shay when he gets to that spot on the left side of the floor today. They toggled it on. And Oklahoma City, with the exception of like one decent Aaron Wiggins kick out three, which he missed, did not look ready for it. They threw like Shay threw passes late to like, that got stolen. They just did not look prepared for it. And knowing Rick Carlisle, he might toggle it to like, half off to start Game seven knowing that they're going to be looking for it. But just like, more broadly, Bill, you and I have talked about this throughout the season. It does make me a little nervous that we're in Game seven of the NBA Finals and it still doesn't feel like Mark Dagnall, through no fault of his own, through fault of injuries and personnel choices, doesn't quite have a feel for, like, who should play with whom and for how long. So we start the series with Wallace for Hartenstein. We go back to Hartenstein and Holmgren. We start the second half today again with Caruso for Hartenstein. We get little dollops of like, no big men at all, but only when we're down by 20 and the game is hopeless. The. The Wallace plus the Wallace version of the starting lineup, which is plus, like a lot for the playoffs. I don't know if they even saw the floor at all today. It just, it makes me a little uneasy that the Pacers are like, it's a little mather in here, shepherd here. But for the most part, the Pacers know exactly who they're going to play and when. And we've been talking about all year and it hasn't mattered because they're just so goddamn good and their defense is so goddamn good. I just, I'm fast. Like, I don't who's going to start for them in game seven? Who's going to start second half for them in game seven? Who's going to be like Isaiah Joe got unearthed again today, but only because they were down by 30. Just makes me a little uneasy, that's all.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, they did a little zone with an Isaiah Joe lineup. What was that in the third quarter, which it's like, I just feel like OKC should never have to play zone. It's one of the better defensive teams we've seen. But that it felt like they were, I don't know, whiff, desperate. It's a good point, though. I, I, you know, we didn't understand why they went away from the two bigs. Oh, we lost. We lost Rob. We can do it.

[Zach Lowe]

We can carry without Rob's back. That was Rob. That was Rob's impression of Oklahoma City's own defense tonight. It popped up for one. Popped up for one. Possession gone.

[Bill Simmons]

After that, Rob got hit by James Johnson.

[Rob Mahoney]

I heard one negative thing about Case and Wallace. I'm like, I'm getting the fuck out of here. I cannot stand this.

[Bill Simmons]

So I'm with you. That, that lineup, that Pitbull lineup, they would play with Case and Wallace, like the numbers were actually pretty good for them. But we also don't understand why they didn't start the two bigs. When that had worked all year. They went back to that, but now they suddenly went away from that lineup. That was plus a lot. So I don't know, I wonder, if you had to guess, would they start two bigs in this game seven, Rob, or would they go with the smaller lineup that they started with and a couple of the other games?

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm tempted to say if the Crusoe stint had gone better in the second half today, they would have gone to it. But the fact that it came out with no real impact on the game at all, I think might, might give Mark Dagnault some pause. Ultimately, that is, I think functionally their best lineup. Like we've seen when Alex Caruso is having a maximize effect on these games. That's the Thunder really at their best. That's their best stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

And Caruso, Dort, jwill, SGA and one Big.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think they might do it. One Big.

[Zach Lowe]

I think that's. I call that their A lineup. Although the numbers are not spectacular.

[Rob Mahoney]

Right?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. All right, we're taking a break for the podcast. We're going to keep going on YouTube. This episode is brought to you by HubSpot. Growing a Business. It can feel impossible. But HubSpot's customer platform, I promise, can help you. It's powered by a suite of AI tools called Breez, so you can generate more leads, close more deals, and scale your service fast. With Breeze agents handling the busy work, customers are cutting sales cycles in half and saving hours on work each week. Best of all, you can see results in days, not months. Visit HubSpot.comai to learn more. I'm just gonna say this and I didn't bet on the I have OKC series bets, so I didn't really. I stayed away from the game today for the most part. I thought OKC had solved Indiana and I thought they were gonna win tonight pretty convincingly. And I'm really surprised how that game turned out. And I guess I shouldn't be. The legacy of this Indiana team is don't ever be surprised. Don't ever count us out, don't ever assume it's over. And yet I just felt like the Halliburton thing, it felt like he was going to try to play limp around, it wasn't going to go well. And more importantly, I just felt like OKC had unlocked something from the second half of game four on, and then they lost it. And I don't. I. The only thing I can think of, Zach, is the rhythm of this finals with this, the fact that we're playing this over the course of 17 days with all these breaks. Maybe it's really hard to get a rhythm in this new 221111 that we have with all these breaks. I don't know. Like, what is the explanation?

[Zach Lowe]

Well, I'd like to look back. Rob makes a great point about the early fouls. I was aware of it, but I didn't maybe zero in on it as carefully as I thought. Because, you know, there, there were two ways the Thunder could come out in this game. Way number one was what happened when they were just a little bit skittish and just sort of out of rhythm on offense. Way number two was just like, let's just pedal to the metal, fly on defense, take some risks, just take the force to them to a point that might almost be dangerous for us on some possessions, if a gamble goes wrong or whatever, we fly it, we hit somebody and there's a foul. I thought they would just, let's just come out and overwhelm them with speed and force. And they did not do that. They just, I mean, I don't know why, but again, credit to the Pacers. They played awesome and they took this game and I was with you. I thought with the Halliburton situation, I didn't think Indiana was going to win the game.

[Bill Simmons]

What about you, Rob?

[Rob Mahoney]

I thought the same. You know, I think frankly the difference in what we saw from Hal Burton was meaningful, not just in terms of how they managed his minutes, but how he managed those minutes. Like there was the possession where he gets Ched on a pump fake on a three, does a jump pass to Neesmith in the corner, and in game five, that's like end of story for Tyrese Halliburton. He was not moving well enough. He would have stopped right there in this game. It turns into a give and go for a layup. And there were so many possessions like that for him where it's like he's continuing to play through whatever consecutive action Indiana is running. And now all of a sudden he is a decoy. He's not just a standstill shooter. He's someone who's actually changing the flow of play. And if he's able to do that, that's a meaningful thing. But now that the Thunder are prepared for that, how do they come into a potential game seven? I. I think there's so many weird little psychological elements of this. Like all the skittishness we're talking about for the Thunder. How skittish are they going to be when their season is on the line too? Like, how is that going to change the way that they play? Are they going to that force?

[Zach Lowe]

I expect Indiana, Indiana just plays its game. Like, I just expect Indiana to come out and play like Indiana in game seven. And just like the stage is the stage, they just play and it's. They just keep playing. It's why they win these crunch time games. I don't expect them to look any different or any, any Oklahoma season, have to win the game at home.

[Bill Simmons]

Halburn had a really nice quick trigger three in the second quarter. That was a shot he wasn't taking a lot in these finals where he just had a pick. He had a split second open and a shoot one and just shot it. And I remember thinking like, that's a pretty good sign. Like if he can at least do that couple threes. He got into the paint like the Indiana people always talk about the paint touches with him. Watch the paint touches. Can he get in the paint? So he did that. So okc big picture. This will be the second game. Seven out of four series. They are now 68 and 14 in the regular season, 157 in the playoffs, 83 and 21. So, Rob, I know this is sad for you. They're now out of the 20 losses or less club. One of my favorite clubs that I created.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm heartbroken. Do you have a different arbitrary line you would like to create for them?

[Bill Simmons]

No, I think this is the right line because this includes the 96 Bulls, 87 and 13 17, Warriors 83 and 16 97, Bulls 84 and 17, 86 Celts and 87, Lakers both 82 and 18. The 2015 Warriors 83 and 20 in the 2013 Heat. Oh, no, they're not in there, actually, they're out. Sorry. That. That's the whole list. And then it goes into the, like the under 80 win teams like the 83 Sixers, 71 Bucks, et cetera. But they are now off that list, much like the Celtics last year got bounced with that Game 4 loss in Dallas. So historically, I think we were all struggling to wrap our heads around OKC wins in six. What was this team? Was this a great season? Was it something more? Was it the beginning of something? But now, you know, I getting taken as seven by Denver and by Indiana, where they're best guys basically on one leg and then deciding, I don't know, not great for their. For their legacy.

[Zach Lowe]

Zach, look, I did the same basketball reference deep dives. I got it all written out on paper right here. All this list of teams, the great teams of all time, just to have it. Just to have it ready. And you know what? I don't care. It's in the garbage now. The only thing I care about, the only record, 20 losses, 80 wins, whatever. The only record I care about for the next 72 hours is three. Three. That's all that stuff is gone now. You got to win one game or your season is officially a disappointment. That's. That's where we are. And you lose the championship at home, that's it.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, there's a little more at stake for OKC, Rob.

[Rob Mahoney]

Sure.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, the 3, 2 lead, blowing the 6814 season and losing at home, becoming the fifth team ever to lose at home in a game seven. It's almost like there's more pressure on them, even though they're the home team.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think you could read it both ways, and I think all of that is true. I also think if you were to bet which of these teams is more likely to be back in the NBA Finals in the near future, I think the Thunder are probably the safer bet. That's no disrespect to the Pacers, but just like the reality of what the Thunder have Built and the way it is constructed to last, it's incredible. They're going to be good for a long time. We have every expectation of that. I just think in terms of what is actually at stake, all this legacy talk, how we're going to contextualize them. It's really cool if you can wrap up the finals in five or six games. Winning a game seven in the NBA Finals is pretty fucking cool. And that can submit you in a different kind of immortality than basically anything else can. And so when you were talking about consummate winners and we're talking about what stars do we compare Shay to if the Thunder were to go on to win? Or Tyrese Halliburton or Pascal Siakam, whoever goes on to win, like, there just is no bigger feather in a cap than this.

[Zach Lowe]

All that matters is that you win in the end. Like all these discussions, it's like you either win or you don't. And all that matters is you win. It doesn't matter how you do it. It doesn't matter what the margin is, because it's hard to get one. I mean, it's hard. It's like, by. By any measure, this team is incredibly well positioned to get multiple titles. I just think people are writing that even with this team as well set up as they are too casually, like, it's hard to win a lot of NBA chip. Like, people are like, well, they could win 3, 4, 5. Like, whoa. Like, it's hard to win that many NBA championships. You got to get one. Think about what the 2021 title means to the Bucks. Like, everything's kind of been disarray since then. First round losses, trade rumors, all that they got one. And that validates everything they came before, and it really lessens the pain of everything that comes after. No matter what it is, you got to get one. Before we start having these historic Boston, you know, I was bringing them up the best shot at, you know, breaking the. Breaking the. No repeat streak was going to be, I think, a goal of theirs to really cement their. To your point about historical context and not knowing how to place the 60 whatever win Boston team from last year that had this margin, but they didn't feel like the 86 Celtics or whatever. One way to elevate yourself and to stamp that first championship is to repeat. And they talked about how much they wanted to do that. They didn't get out of the second round of the playoffs and their best player got injured. It's really, really hard. You just got to win. Everything has to stop. Until you win one, because one is still really hard to get.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, one thing about game sevens, at least recent history, and we're going back if you go post ABA merger, we've had 19, 78, 84, 88, 94, 05, 2010, 13 and 16. They're usually pretty close games. They're usually really tense, they're ugly, they're not exceptionally well played. You look up and you're like, oh my God, is it the fourth quarter yet? And it's like two minutes into the second quarter. There's a weightiness to it. I was lucky enough to go to the 2010 one and the 2013 one.

[Zach Lowe]

Were you lucky to be at that one? That's a lucky. I guess you were lucky.

[Bill Simmons]

I was lucky from loving basketball. I was absolutely miserable afterwards as the confetti dropped and the Laker fans are going nuts. That was miserable. But yeah, there's a weight that you can feel in those that I can't really describe. Everybody, kind of everybody who's in their seats, everybody who's on the benches, everybody who's on the court, they understand this is life altering stuff now, that if you win this, this is the rest of your life. If you lose it, you'll be thinking about it the rest of your life. They usually come down to one or two plays. They usually come down to one random dude on one of the teams just getting hot or making some shot. Like in 2010, Artest just hit that three and that kind of decided the game. Nobody in the arena wanted to take him. He took it in 2013. Did you go to that one, Zach? The game seven?

[Zach Lowe]

No, I wasn't there.

[Bill Simmons]

Which was an awesome game. Everybody remembers the Ray Allen shot, but the next game was really great. And Duncan had a little bunny from like 5ft to tie the game with like 50 seconds left that he's made his entire life. And it didn't go in and he couldn't believe it and they had to foul and he like sunk to the. I'll never forget, he smacked the floor.

[Zach Lowe]

I think, in Fabrical.

[Bill Simmons]

Sunk to the ground, punched the ground like he just couldn't believe it, didn't go in. But a lot of times these games come down to that. These, you know, so I feel like this will be a good game. I don't think this will be. Usually in the earlier rounds, it's so and so wins by 30. I don't, I don't see that happening in this game. What do you think, Rob?

[Rob Mahoney]

I. I'm in line with that. And to your point about the random role player or the random guy, like, this is a Lou Dort, Aaron Neesmith, Alex Caruso, Andrew Nemhardt kind of moment. Wiggins.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Like, this is a Wiggins six out of seven, for sure.

[Rob Mahoney]

Absolutely. And I think by extension, like, in games that are that tense, with that kind of physicality that get that ugly, that's also like a Pascal Siakam kind of moment. Like, who is the most adaptable piece on the floor? Who is the guy who can do a little bit of everything?

[Zach Lowe]

He's been in the finals before.

[Rob Mahoney]

Been in the finals before. Who's the guy you trust with three seconds left on the shot clock to hit a crazy turnaround that he has no business hitting just by the nature and the context of the possession. That's Pascal Siakam to me. Like, those are the possessions that he manages to turn out through sheer versatility that almost no one else in the series can like. J Dub has some of that. Obviously, Shai's like an incredible shot maker. Like, they're guys who can hit great shots. But I will be incredibly shocked if Pascal Siakam does not have exactly that kind of Swiss army knife effect on game seven. Like, that's just. That's just who he is, is the impact he's had on these games.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm going to throw up Matheran again, too, who did nothing today and really hasn't done anything since that game three. But I. My guess is Carlisle, who's been in situations like this. He'll just have like multiple grills on the oven going and he'll be like, I'm going to throw Matheran in the pan for two minutes here and just kind of see what happens. And what does Ben Shepard have going? Anything. And he'll sprinkle guys around until he sees somebody that he likes. Whereas okc, I think Wiggins would be the, you know, especially at home. And then the defensive door and Caruso, I would say would be the other two. But, you know, this could be also be a situation where, like, Shay is just awesome. Jalen Williams just awesome. I love game sevens. It's crazy to me. Can you name the four teams that have won one on the road? Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Cavs. Right?

[Zach Lowe]

Cavs is the most recent one.

[Bill Simmons]

16 Cavs. The Festus Azili classic. Oh, come on. Six straight points. Trapped. Trapped 25ft from the basket against all time.

[Zach Lowe]

Your 1969 Boston Celtics is one.

[Bill Simmons]

The 74 Celtics in Milwaukee coming off Kareem Skyhook in game six, where it seems like they Blew the series. And then the fourth one.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm really trying to get it.

[Bill Simmons]

Not a lot of buzz for this series. Might have even been tape delayed. The 1978 bullet sonics classic Bullets went on the road. Dennis Johnson 0 for 14 pre Twitter. So you know, I don't think he took a huge beating. Seattle comes back the next year, wins the title and that's it. Those are the four. We've had some close ones like 2013 spurs came damn close. 2010 Celtics that was down to the last minute. That 05 Spurs Pistons game was. Was a rock fight but was still pretty close.

[Zach Lowe]

We should make an all we should do an off season project of like re watching 2005 Pistons spurs like no, everyone hated it. It went 7. It was super intense. There's a huge ori shot in there somewhere.

[Bill Simmons]

I think game five.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

The wrong teams are in the series because I mean Indiana was the best. Ironically our test was in the arena tonight because the Pacers had everyone back including our test. And I guess there's no line anymore for who gets invited back because facts are facts. Like he started a huge riot in a game, got spinner for the season and cost them the title. And they're like ron, welcome back. Here's Pacers jersey. But I thought the 05 Pacers were the. I thought they were probably the best team that year. And then Miami was really good too. And Wade got hurt.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

And we just kind of ended up with this Piston Spurs. Duncan was hurt. Like it was a weird one. It was just one of those years.

[Rob Mahoney]

Zach, your idea is both a great editorial idea and also Spotify insurance does not cover The Mental Rewatchables.

[Zach Lowe]

2005 Finals is not. Is not going to happen.

[Bill Simmons]

No, it's a rock fight. The horror game was really good though. No, but I think that that was one of those years where we were like thank God for the Suns. At least we get to watch one team run a fast break and do some stuff. The 94 Rockets next game was another one. That was a rock fight. 88 Lakers Pistons was really fun. 84 Lakers Celtics was pretty famous game.

[Zach Lowe]

88 Lakers Pistons game seven in LA. Is that the controversial Lambert foul on Kareem at the end of the game? Is that that game?

[Bill Simmons]

My controversial do you mean?

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, I was just easy. I was just. I was teen you up? Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Like an absolute abom. The Pistons touch foul on a cream skyhook. Let me tell you the title.

[Zach Lowe]

Let me tell you because I've done it. If you bring that up to Joe Dumars. It's like, you just be prepared for like 12 minutes of commentary.

[Bill Simmons]

There's two terrible calls because there's that. And then they have the ball three, like, five seconds left. They inbound it after two free throws. The fans storm the court as the final play is going on where they have a chance to get a 3 off. And magic decks Isaiah and they just. They're like, let's get out of here. And they just kind of end the game. It's unprecedented. It's unbelievable to watch. Anyway, so, 16. Cleveland was the last one. That was the last one in almost 50 years. And that had, you know, LeBron, one of the two best players of all time. That had Curry, who was hurt, that had Andrew Bogut was out. It was an absolute rock fight. And it had Kyrie make one of the great final shots in the last minute. And the warriors still almost won that game.

[Zach Lowe]

And one of the games fight for everybody. But Draymond Green somehow made like a million threes.

[Bill Simmons]

34. Yeah. Forgot about that. So. Yeah. Could Indiana be the fifth team ever? I guess what we've learned in the playoffs this year is do not count them out.

[Zach Lowe]

I just.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm done counting them out. What do you think the line is, Rob?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think it's.

[Bill Simmons]

You're not a huge gambling guy.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think the Thunder are favored for sure. I mean, one thing we have not said, the Thunder at home is a very different enterprise, and that is a home court advantage. I do genuinely believe in that. It actually does make a tangible difference on the flow of the game. I think they are probably favored by four and a half points. That would be my guess.

[Bill Simmons]

It's minus eight and a half.

[Zach Lowe]

He's going to go higher. I was going to go higher than.

[Bill Simmons]

Four and a half.

[Rob Mahoney]

No one respects the Pacers, Even Vegas.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, eight and a half. That's probably the lowest. They've been favored at home. All right, so let's do. Let's do a morning TV segment, Zach. Why? Who has the most at stake in Game 7?

[Zach Lowe]

The most at stake.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, okay, I'll take the bait. I'll take the bait. Most at stake in game seven, it's Shay Gilgis Alexander. It's capping an MVP season with a championship. And I think he's probably still the favorite to win finals. Mvp. And yeah, he'll have other chances. Right? But nothing is guaranteed in this life. Nothing is guaranteed in the NBA. No one on the Pacers, other than like, Rick Carlisle maybe has this sort of like, what. What would like, they're all so young in their careers. I guess you could say Halliburton immediately elevates himself into. Into or sets himself up to be elevated into different kinds of conversations. It's gotta be Shay, right? Was there any other answer to this?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think Shay makes sense. I mean, he's. He's in a position. If they do win, as far as guys who have won a title and an MVP before they turn 27, that's like a very, very select group of players. That's Bill Walton since the merger. Bill Walton, Tim Duncan, Steph, the underachieving Giannis Antetokounmpo, and potentially Shay, like, that is a rare class of player that he could thrust himself in with an achievement like that.

[Zach Lowe]

Anyone want to nominate Paul George or the Clippers? Clippers front office?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, Paul George rooting for Indiana, right?

[Zach Lowe]

Paul George's legacy is all over this series.

[Bill Simmons]

So I have one more name for what's at stake. Sam Presti.

[Rob Mahoney]

Sure.

[Zach Lowe]

It's a good one. It's a good one. Does that mean. Related to what I just said?

[Bill Simmons]

Best GM of the last 20 years? Up 3, 2. He's been, you know, he's been knocking at the door, really, since 2012 in a bunch of different ways. And this seemed like the year it was going to happen. And I do not think he's sleeping tonight would be my guess.

[Zach Lowe]

If they lose, it's more that, what does he have to gain? Like, clinching. Clinching his place in history. Like, it's like, if they lose game seven, you'll be like, man, he really messed up this team.

[Bill Simmons]

No, yeah, it wouldn't be that, but it would be more like, wow, who's done a better job in basketball over a longer stretch without actually having it pay off with the title? Although we learned from LeBron last week, rings don't matter anymore. Ring culture.

[Rob Mahoney]

Is that what he said?

[Bill Simmons]

What did he say? Ring culture, stupid.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm not letting you suck me into anything.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't think that's what happened.

[Bill Simmons]

So SGA right now is in this. If he wins the title, people who average at least 30 a game and won the title, and it's not a long list, and it includes Michael Jordan, Hakeem Olajuwon, Kareem shaq, Kawhi Leonard, LeBron James, Giannis, Kobe, and Jokic. Pretty good.

[Rob Mahoney]

Pretty good. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. So, yeah, I would say he has the best.

[Zach Lowe]

30. 30 a game in the playoffs, right?

[Bill Simmons]

30 a game in the playoffs, yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay. Cause I was like, Hakeem, 30 points a game.

[Bill Simmons]

And I had. Yeah, 30 game in the playoffs. So that's it. There's a slight. Jalen Williams could do a big game. James Worthy in the seventh game.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's true.

[Bill Simmons]

And have that kind of, you know.

[Zach Lowe]

Why is that just slight? He just had 40 points.

[Bill Simmons]

That's a game seven. It's, you know, I'm saying like James Worthy had an iconic game. Game seven. Right. He won the. Did he win Finals mvp? I can't remember. But that's always been the James Worthy game. Although I remember it the way Zach did is the I can't believe they called that foul on Lambert game. And why don't. And why does anyone care that people are jumping on the court? So we'll see what happens. Zach, did you care about the Lakers selling for a valuation of $10 billion? Not actually $10 billion.

[Zach Lowe]

I cared about the Lakers selling. Yeah. I mean, I think there's a lot of tentacles to that and how it could go going forward and the gradual exiting of the bus family from, you know, total control of the team. I think that's. That's very interesting. I don't want to talk about it yet. Can we. Can we talk about the Finals for two more minutes?

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. What else do you have? Give me one last topic.

[Zach Lowe]

They just updated the stats.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Zach Lowe]

@Nba.Com and I just want to read the offensive ratings for the series. Indiana 109.5, Oklahoma City 110.5. That is about the equivalent of the Utah offense against the New Orleans offense in the regular season. I just want to tip my cap to both defenses because this has been a defensive series and both of them have stepped up to the plate, including Indiana. Like, those are pretty stark. Like, these offenses have kind of been ground into nubs in this series. Like, that's pretty impressive stuff. That's all I wanted. I just saw the numbers. I wanted to say that before we talked about the Lakers.

[Rob Mahoney]

Who do you think we. I don't want to say underestimate in terms of the Pacers defense, but like, maybe weren't categorized incorrectly because you look at the Thunder defense, obviously in the regular season, the numbers were what they were. Their success was what it was. It drove a 68 win, juggernaut season, that defense. And you could look up and down, you know, J Dub, second team all defense, Lou Dorrit, first team, all defense. Or at least worthy. And you know, that's not say nothing about guys like Caruso and Hartenstein who might have made it if they had been healthier. You never really hear Any of that with the Pacers. You never really hear it about Andrew Nemhard or Aaron Neesmith or Myles Turner or Pascal Siakam. And I'm wondering, like, what is it that we are missing? If it's in terms of individual talent or is it just the kind of collective play and the way those guys are able to work off of each other? Like, what is it that it's been able to elevate their defense in the way that it has?

[Bill Simmons]

I guess my thought on that would be they try so freaking hard consistently, which I think is like, it was. JJ had that quote during the season when they asked him, what did he learn coaching a team? And he's like, the number one thing I've learned is that you have to try really hard, and when you don't, it gets really hard. Like, he had one of those quotes like that. He was like, I've learned that over everything else, how important effort is. It sounds stupid, but effort matters the most in Indiana. For whatever reason, those guys play really, really hard all the time. So, you know, you look at the guys individually, Nemhardt's not. He doesn't have a ton of size. Right. But he's able to stay with SGA. Like TJ McConnell, you would never think of him as, like, a lockdown defender. Toppin certainly has never been accused of being an awesome defensive player. You go on down the line, and it doesn't really make sense. I do think Neesmith feels like he's finally moving the way he did before he hurt his ankle in that Knick series, because he had a couple of those threes when, you know. And Zach and I know this because we've watched the highlights on New Smith island together. Those threes he hit when he's running full speed, stops in the corner and just puts so much torque on his lower body, but then could still get off these threes. And I didn't feel like he was doing that for about two weeks there with his. With his ankle. And he seems healthy to me now.

[Zach Lowe]

How were you? There's a statue of that on N. Smith Island. Just a contested, like, three leaning three.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Was there power on Nismith island, or were these highlights like shadows on the cave wall? Like, how were you?

[Bill Simmons]

We got a generator.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Zach Lowe]

There's a drive in theater right in the middle of the island. Now you can drive your car up, sit and have a couple of drinks, and just watch highlights of Aaron Nesmith.

[Bill Simmons]

Is there another island we need to start after the success of New Smith Island? Is there Anybody you had your eye on?

[Zach Lowe]

Zach, how long do you want this podcast to be? I mean like I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

Is there a number one draft pick for you?

[Zach Lowe]

I don't know. I have to. I wasn't prepared for that question. I didn't think hard about it. I wanted like Pacers defense, 2, 3, 4 of their starting lineup just rock solid across the board. Maybe not an all defense level player among them, although maybe. But just like rock solid. Halliburton has just amped up his effort to a new level throughout the entire playoffs. Like he's always going to be the liability, the weak link, but he has just the way he rotates around the floor and contest shots. He's a different guy than he was last season. And I would love to go and look at schematically exactly what Indiana is doing because if you look at like people have stopped kind of talking about because the Thunder have been winning games, how low their passes per game numbers are in the series, they've stayed super low even as the Thunder appeared to have taken control of the series. And over and over again we see these games where they don't move the ball, they don't get assists, they don't generate threes. And it's like what, what is, what is their team and their coaching staff doing and what are they not doing to continue to coax the Thunder into this like trap of mud where they just get nothing easy. And I don't know the answer to that. I do know that this is probably the reason why after all of the talk before the series was, well, Indiana, they'll spring a zone here and there. This is it. They've played no zone at all because I think they're just like all his own is going to do is give them easy passes all over the floor and space all over the floor. And as long as they're not doing that against our Manda Bay, like we're just not going to it. But it's much more complicated than that. But they have gummed up Oklahoma City in the same way every game to the point that if Oklahoma City doesn't get the 20 points in transition off of turnovers, like this is the kind of result you're going to get. And I would love to go deeper into I would love to know more about what they're doing basically.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, I think some of it is what you mentioned earlier, Zach, about the fact that Rick Carlisle can for example, toggle how much they're doubling Shay game to game, moment to moment, quarter to quarter, stretch to stretch whatever it may end up being. They're just one of those defenses that is not any one thing. And I say that even to mean like, who is their go to stopper one series is Aaron Neesmith. Because Nemhard doesn't really have as much of a shot guarding Jalen Brunson in this series, even despite what you may think of like who Shai is physically and the defenders who profile well against him. Nemhard's been great and in some series it's Siakam. And in some series, like you're just really relying on the help and the rotation of all those guys. And so I think there is an element of you're never quite sure what to expect from them. You're never quite sure coming into a series between games. Do we have it nailed down the way that they are going to guard this exact action? I don't think anyone does. And I think that's a huge part of what makes a bunch of really smart, physical, intuitive defenders be wildly successful in a run like this.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, Zach's toggle thing, it's actually a football. It's like a cornerback blitz or like a safety, but like where you kind of know a blitz is coming. Maybe. Maybe it's not coming. Oh no, it's going to come a lot. Nope, it's not coming anymore. And that seems like what they're trying to do to SGA and they're sending those late blitzes at him. It's pretty cool to watch. Zach, my broker. I'll call you tomorrow. There's some opportunity on Cam Whitmore island if he's in the Phoenix trade. I don't know if you're interested. Maybe a. Maybe a cabin.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean, he could average 20 points a game in a snap. He might not win a lot.

[Bill Simmons]

Let us know if you want a little.

[Rob Mahoney]

He was, I want to say, the first or second overall pick in our group Chat expansion draft exercise this year. A lot of Cam Woodmore fans over on group chat, we believe this episode.

[Bill Simmons]

Is brought to you by LinkedIn. During the season, every baseball team plays 162 games. It's a true test of endurance. It's not enough to have a hot month or two. You need sustained dominance throughout. Well, the same is true for your small business. It's not enough to have a great Q2 or even a great year. You want year over year growth that starts with better hires that'll be there for the long haul. To find Those hires, use LinkedIn. LinkedIn has strong hiring data and insights that you won't find anywhere else to help pair you with the best candidates, from unique skills and interests to the connections you have in common. Based on LinkedIn data, 72% of small businesses say that LinkedIn helps them find high quality talent. LinkedIn also lets you go beyond people who are actively applying in a given week. 171 million LinkedIn members aren't actively seeking jobs, but they are open to new opportunities. That's a big pool to miss out on. If you're not hiring with LinkedIn. Find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com Simmons that's LinkedIn.com Simmons to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. Lowe's knows that taking on more projects should be rewarding. That's why loyalty members get more every day with rewards for every home or business purchase. Plus shop weekly member deals to get access to free standard shipping. So what are you waiting for? Join Miloe's Rewards for Free Today Loyalty program Subject to terms and conditions [e-mail] terms subject to change this episode is brought to you by Visit Myrtle beach if you're dreaming of a beachy summer escape, then head to the beach In Myrtle Beach, S.C. you'll find 60 miles of stunning coastline, hundreds of attractions to explore, and the South's newest foodie hotspot. This is where you play hard and beach easy. You belong at the beach. Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. Start planning your summer adventure at visit myrtlebeach.com did you want to talk about the Lakers?

[Zach Lowe]

I rudely swayed the discussion away from the Lakers. It seemed like you wanted to talk about the Lakers.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, it was the most interesting thing that's happened since the last time I've talked to you. And I haven't talked to Rob this whole Finals. Just something that had been rumored for a while and especially after Mark Walter bought the 27% in 2021 and he had the hammer. If they ever tried to sell and it was like, well, if they ever sell, it's going to be to this guy. And then the Celtics sale happens and it's like there had been some buzz and then out of nowhere it happened. And I'm not positive it was out of nowhere because there had been some rumblings, but given the fact that he had the big stake already and then the bus family kept 18% so he only had to buy another 48% to get that majority stake. So he slapped on the 4.8 billion. It seems like it's 10, but it's half that. It's still like a crazy amount of money for a team that doesn't own an arena. And I had the same reaction with the Celtics. Like, even though I knew the number was going to be the number, I'm still like kind of staggered. They have a lease that goes through Staples center until 2041. I think the rest of the league and you're already seeing stuff that being mentioned and written about the Lakers, notoriously, really frugal for a team that was the signature franchise in the league. There were millions of stories.

[Rob Mahoney]

They are but a mom and pop franchise, Bill.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. They're being run like the local drugstore in Pasadena and meanwhile they're the biggest drugstore in America. And. And people are wondering, well, what if that changes? What does that mean? I still feel like they were spending a lot of money, Rob. It's not like they were cheaping out on luxury tax. But it will be interesting to see if what, what this group was able to do with the Dodgers professionalizes the Lakers in the same way. What that's going to mean. I think it's pretty scary.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. I think they're spending a lot of money and then there's caution to the wind level money. There is. We're just going to try to blow this thing over the top. And that can get you, as the Phoenix Suns can attest, into some really deep water sometimes take you to some really dark places as a franchise. I think there is the Lakers element of the story and then there's the larger. Like there is a whole class of NBA owners and governors who are now selling and migrating out of that business. I think some of that is just those valuation numbers going up and up and up to a point where you just can't say no anymore realistically to something like that. But is this something that a lot of people are getting out of the NBA owning business? That this is the time that they have selected to say Lakers, Celtics, Mavericks, Hornets, who else? Who else has sold recently? There's, I mean, the wolves. It's going to be a kind of a protracted process.

[Bill Simmons]

I've heard this argument and I think if you go case by case, each one actually makes sense individually and doesn't seem like part of a larger trend like the Celtics one. Wick's dad wanted to sell and he owned the biggest chunk of the team and he's hitting his 90s and he wanted to get his estate in order and that was it. They won the title. He wanted out. The Mavericks thing was super weird for a bunch of Reasons they had a bunch of organizational stuff going on. Mark Cuban might want to run for president. I don't know if that was an I want to get ahead of this whole media rights thing. This is the perfect time. I actually think he probably would have been better off holding on for a year or two more Timberwolves thing. The guy regretted it the moment he agreed to the deal. Was trying to get out of it for three years. Yeah, the Suns, they made Sarver sell. So this is the first one where.

[Rob Mahoney]

I guess Portland's in that group too. Although that's been another kind of long process.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that was like a family. The guy was. The guy died and left it to the family. I think with when you have these a lot of siblings and a family and siblings getting older and they start thinking about the estate tax stuff, I think it does change. Like they look at him like, hey, we can cash in now. We split all the money and there's ways to do it. But Zach, you think going forward with the Dodgers owning the Lakers basically and Luka Doncic in there, this is a pretty safe bet to be a dominant franchise now, I would say for the next 10 years because they've proven they can do this with the Dodgers.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, I mean, people are going to laugh at the idea that, you know, do the Lakers need more? I mean, they're the Lakers. There's a reason Laker exceptionalism stars just fall into their lap all the time. Like they already had this baked in advantage. And the NBA is not baseball. You can't spend on payroll infinitely. There's a cap and a hardish cap and it's not baseball.

[Bill Simmons]

But you can spend on all the other stuff, which is like something Bomber is doing.

[Zach Lowe]

So that's the point. That's the point is all of this stuff that the Lakers have not spent on commensurate with their place in the market, whether it's analytics, scouting video, all the fancy stuff. Like it's. It's kind of cute to make fun of that. Like, oh, is that really going to help the Lakers? Like the Lakers need help. Is it really going to help on the, on the fringes of the roster? Because they'll miss on a lot of those moves on the fringes of the roster. But the point is like over time, if you set yourself up to just make better decisions on roster spots 5 to 15 over 10, 20, 30 years, you will in the aggregate make better decisions on roster spots 5 to 15. And that is where all the spending, I think will matter. And there's just I think it's super. I think it's super interesting. I just think the bus family Game of Thrones thing is really interesting. I think the bus, like Jerry Buss obviously has been passed away for a while, but that class of owner is leaving. And you talked about people getting out of the NBA business. These prices are like, there's only so many people that can even get into the NBA business right now. Even to buy, like, 5% of these teams is an enormous amount of money. And it just is going to open the door for, like, what kind of funds are going to get more involved. We're moving more in that direction because we're just running. You can only go to Larry Ellison so many times and be like, hey, you want 8 billion? You want a team? Like, there's just not many of those people.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And it seems. Oh, go ahead, Rob.

[Rob Mahoney]

I was going to say it feels telling. Like, the Lakers are in their own class, as we've decided or discussed in terms of what their appeal is to players and what their place is in the league. Like, they are a unique case, but we're coming off a week in which Desmond Bain showed up at the. At the practice facility in Orlando and was like, this isn't what it's like in Memphis. And coming off a week in which there was a clip of Dejounte Murray going around talking about how he couldn't even get time on the training table.

[Zach Lowe]

In New Orleans or the Pelicans are like a whole separate thing.

[Rob Mahoney]

Totally, totally separate thing. But all of which is to say there is lots of room on the margins to do things that are meaningful to your bottom line as an organization, are meaningful to players, are meaningful to your success as a franchise that are right there. Like. Like spending on training facilities, spending on a practice facility, spending on assistant coaches, spending on analytics. Like, all of that stuff is within any owner's theoretical grasp if they would care to do it. And everyone pinches pennies somewhere and tightens the belt buckle somewhere else. But, like, that stuff is right there for the taking for any owner who wants to do it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And I think, I feel comfortable saying this. I think they succeeded the last 20 years despite the ownership situation, the Lakers. I also think, I really do. I feel like, what was it, all.

[Zach Lowe]

The litigation and like, well, if LeBron.

[Bill Simmons]

Doesn'T decide in 2008, you know, 2017 range, I'm going to go to the Lakers. I want to move all my operations there. They're just a mess. Like any other team they would. Had all these weird lottery Picks they would had to try to figure out how, you know, they picked second three years in a row. Then they traded all the rest of their picks for Anthony Davis. Like, I feel like they succeeded despite the ownership situation. Now granted, they just made one of the best trades in the history of professional sports, so you can't criticize it too much. But I'm just saying, like what the Dodgers have done and what that ownership group has done for that team, if they can figure out how to do something similar in basketball and the same kind of advantage as Zach, I just feel like not only can be different.

[Zach Lowe]

A couple of things on what you just said, I think because LeBron went there and then LeBron's agents basically got Anthony Davis to join him there.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes.

[Zach Lowe]

The whole like five or six straight years when they were out of the playoffs and a total disaster and the Nick Young, demar d' Angelo, Russell, like, thing happened and all of that Dakota, that was a long time. That was like a Charlotte Hornets, Sacramento Kings stretch of like, what the hell is going on here? This is like 2735 win seasons, like, and there was no guarantee it would end. And then LeBron came and then AD came into my earlier point. They got one and that's a big deal to get one. They got one and now they've been handed this life raft to the post LeBron era in. In Luca. But like they're going to have to. It's not like the west is no joke. It's there. It's not like they're guaranteed a title any in the next five years just because they got Luca. They're going to have to work to get it.

[Bill Simmons]

The other big thing that happened this week since the last time I saw you, Zach, and we haven't talked about this at all, Rob, is we thought it covered the ranch trade would happen by now. By all accounts, the offers are not good.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm checking my phone just in case. When you see me looking down, I'm just looking for just the word on.

[Bill Simmons]

The street is the offers have sucked. And they made the classic mistake of basically what happened with David Griffin last year in New Orleans.

[Zach Lowe]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like, like, can't have this roster anymore. We've got to make some moves. And the rest of the league is like, oh, you got to make some moves, huh? Heard you had to make some moves. Yeah, here's my crappy offer. I don't know how this KD thing plays out anymore, Rob. I would assume it's going to be Houston and I would assume It's. Maybe it's going to be a shortened version of the trades Roussille and I were talking about on Sunday. And maybe it's just Jabari Smith and Jalen Green, and Jalen Green gets rerouted somewhere, and maybe that's the entire trade. But at some point, the price becomes low enough that if you're Phoenix, you might have to go. Look, kd, we. We tried to trade you. There were no good deals. We're keeping you.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think that's easier said than done, though, with the Jalen Green aspect of that, like, nesting doll. Nesting. Dulling the Jalen Green trade saga within the Kevin Durant trade saga and trying to find the 13 that's like, super high on Jalen Green, very hard. I think it's quite challenging. And, like, I can understand, like, Houston for. For Kevin Durant. I would love to see it. I think it makes a ton of basketball sense, granted, you know, the. The varying levels of agreement within that organization as far as, like, who is gung ho about that move and who is more patient about it. I. I get all of it. I think they have proven defensively and in terms of the core of that team that they are ready to take a step forward, that they're ready to consolidate some of that talent with exactly a player like Kevin Durant. And so there should be. I think there should be a lot of will on Houston's side to get it done. I understand why they might be, like, slow playing that market and why Phoenix would be kicking the tires on everyone to the point that, like, have we already rounded the corner to Detroit being in this conversation? Is that a thing yet? Because I feel like they could be in this conversation if they.

[Zach Lowe]

I've been banging this drum for two weeks, three weeks.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like, why not?

[Bill Simmons]

Come on. Well, there have to be some prize in there other than the Tobias contract, of course. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like, just a matter of who you like. Are you a Ron Holland? Jade N Ivy?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know. I still.

[Zach Lowe]

It feels like a great ending. It feels like a great ending for Kevin Durant's sort of strange, meandering career post. OkC is like this random franchise that's been kind of in purgatory to bad for quite a long time in this market that doesn't draw free agents. What if Kevin Durant and Kade Cunningham and Asar Thompson and Jalen Duran made the finals one year for the Detroit Pistons? It's a perfect ending.

[Rob Mahoney]

What if he saves the American auto industry? You know, like, I think there's lots of options on the board for us. That could be very exciting.

[Zach Lowe]

The Chrysler Durantula coming.

[Bill Simmons]

I'll tell you this, if I'd want to be in the east, if I was anybody who's. I guess Durant's already won some rings, so maybe he's looking for basketball.

[Zach Lowe]

You guess he's already won some.

[Bill Simmons]

No, I'm just saying he doesn't have to chase like some other guys.

[Zach Lowe]

A burner account is going to tweet something just because you said that.

[Bill Simmons]

I know he's won some rings. Sorry. Kevin Durant. Please don't at me. No, but he, I, I think he would. He's probably looking for basketball happiness more than. I have. One more chance. I need my third ring because so and so only has two. I don't think he thinks the most.

[Zach Lowe]

Interesting part of the Houston Phoenix negotiations to me, which I assume just comes down to Phoenix identifying two or three things they'd like throwing in and Houston trying to hold on to Two of those three things or whatever it is, is the 2027 Suns draft pick. Because in trading for Kevin Durant, I'm probably making your team worse in the short term, you know, for the next couple of seasons at least, and giving you a puzzle that you've got to build your way out of before that 2027 draft pick pick comes due. And I'd like to keep it. Like, I'd like to keep that pick. And, you know, I assume Phoenix is absolutely dead set on getting it back. And I just think that's a, that's a really delicious little piece of, like, I don't. I would love to be on those phone calls.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, we're at the point now where it seemed like there were three teams like, like leaving Indiana this weekend. It seemed like it was a three team race. He said he picked his teams. All right, here we go. We're gonna. Now it feels like eight teams might be involved. I'm prepared for anybody. Like, you threw Detroit out. I don't think that's. That's crazy.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like, they should be.

[Zach Lowe]

I don't think it's the Toronto Lurkers lurking around. Loiterers. The Toronto loiterers.

[Bill Simmons]

Zach, I wish you cared about the draft because the Ace Bailey saga is the other way.

[Zach Lowe]

I care. I've been on the phone for all of the last two days.

[Bill Simmons]

Ace Bailey saga. This has not really happened since, like, Amara Stoudemire 20 years ago, where somebody's just refusing to work out for teams.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. What level of no show are we talking about? Like, are the restaurant reservations made? And he's just like not going on the trip and they have to cancel everything. Like how far he's just sitting by.

[Zach Lowe]

Himself at a table. Sir, it's been two hours. I don't think your party's. I don't think your party's showing up.

[Bill Simmons]

I think Darrell loves this. This is like. Oh, this is your challenging me to draft you now I'm gonna do this. You think I'm afraid. You think you're scaring me? Spilling I listen. It seems like he has pretty shaky representation around him. I'll say. That seems to be the word in the street. They're doing things a little unconventionally, maybe in the wrong way. Conspiracy. Bill's wondering if he's just trying to push himself to Brooklyn at number eight. I don't think he's getting to number eight. You don't think he's getting there?

[Zach Lowe]

I don't think he's. I don't think. No, you know what? Look, I. Conspiracy.

[Bill Simmons]

There's a lot of castoudemire felt a 9.

[Zach Lowe]

Conspiracy. Bill should be just having a blast with the Ace Bailey thing because there's like seven different Ace Bailey conspiracies floating around the league and the top 10 teams in the draft. And my net conclusion to putting all the conspiracy theories together and meshing them into a ball is I don't think you would get to eight. But maybe I wouldn't be surprised. Yeah, I would guess someone in that Pelicans Wizards.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Have to take it him. They just have to. But you know, on the other hand, that's the kind of selection that has ruined the Wizards slash bullets for the last 40 plus years. But it's interesting. It's. It's a really fun old school, completely hit or completely miss prospect where you could see all these different scenarios for it. But yeah, that's been a talk of the league as well. And it'll also be interesting to see if I think people are expecting maybe Philly will move backwards a spot or two spots to try to pick up some extra assets, dump a contract. You know that Utah, the. Who knows with this stuff on. On social media what's true and not true, but that whole moving back two spots with Utah giving them Paul George. Utah moves up two spots. I just don't know why Utah would want to even move up two spots.

[Zach Lowe]

So there's the thing. If Ace Bailey is now has gone from number three pick to where is he going to get picked? What is you. And so now the whole three to eight is just shuffle it up you know, some guys will go higher. I think Trey Johnson's probably climbed a little higher or whatever. But like, yeah, if I'm Utah, why.

[Bill Simmons]

Am, if I know in the draft this year? Jesus.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, look at that. If it's.

[Bill Simmons]

Who are you?

[Zach Lowe]

If it's unpredictable, if it's unpredictable and I don't have a grip on it as a gm, why am I paying a premium to move up if I don't know if the guy I'm paying a premium for might? Maybe I do it on the clock. I, I, you know, it could just be an on the clock kind of thing and that it has to happen that way.

[Bill Simmons]

You're doing it. If you love Edgecomb, that's the thing. If you feel like we have to leapfrog somebody to get Edgecomb, that's when you would do it. But I still think three years of Paul George also putting Paul George in Utah. What if he doesn't want to go? Do you think he would that way? Well, Kitty, no.

[Zach Lowe]

How many times can you relocate the podcast? P Studios? It's like 2U hauls like, I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

We'll see. We'll see what happens. This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Men face a lot of pressure to keep it all together. But guys, it's okay to struggle. What's more important is getting the help you need. Talk to someone like a therapist from BetterHelp. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Talk it out with BetterHelp. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com billsimmons that's betterhelp.com Bill Simmons this episode is brought to you by Boar's Head. Sandwiches are delicious if you got the right stuff on them. I am. Usually I'm either a roast beef guy or I'm like a turkey, Swiss coleslaw, Russian dressing guy. But aside from toppings and condiments, it also matters what kind of meat you use. And you can't go wrong with Boar's Head. They've got premium cuts of meat seasoned with delicious spice blends. Try the oven gold turkey or ever roast chicken on your club and taste the difference. Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite at your local Boar's Head deli counter. All right, fellas, Prediction for game seven. Do you have one yet? OKC by a ladder by a little or something else? What do you got, Rob?

[Rob Mahoney]

OKC by a little.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm going to go okc. Rock fight close game for three plus quarters and then maybe they pull away and win by the seven to nine range.

[Zach Lowe]

Zach Okc's up two with 10 seconds to go. Halliburton takes a jump shot and the screen goes to black like the ending of the Sopranos. And I know what happens for like the rest of our lives. Just I don't like another. Some cataclysmic event occurs and the finals are over.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I'll tell you this. If Indiana wins game seven, it will be the first team mentioned. When we talk about like the Hickory High type, craziest sports movie type teams that actually won the NBA title, they'll.

[Zach Lowe]

Be mentioned first if they win game seven. I'm drinking on the podcast after the game. I will do the podcast with a drink because it'll just be such an incredible start to finish run of crazy finishes. And you counted us out and shots that go up to the ceiling and go in. I'm drinking on the podcast.

[Bill Simmons]

If they win, Indiana wins and then they go. Ratings were the lowest it's ever been for a Game seven and we have to do that whole thing. It's like, yeah, this was a fucking awesome basketball series. Fuck everybody.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think they, if they do win, they would be probably like the team of my lifetime, to be honest with you, in terms of the run that they've been on. Like, I. There's nothing like it. There is. There is no comparison point.

[Bill Simmons]

No, it happens in baseball. We see it happen in baseball where an offense can just get hot for, you know, three weeks and one pitcher is pitching well and they're like, oh, my God, we just won the World series. Like the 2013 Red Sox were a little bit like that. It never happens in basketball.

[Zach Lowe]

Nope, I didn't make a real prediction. I guess you guys did. So I should make one. I'll just. I'll cop out and go. OKC wins a very close game. That would. That seems to be the most likely of many, many different scenarios. But I'm officially at the stage where like, almost nothing would surprise me about this series. Nothing. No outcome.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you like my revised final schedule of going Thursday, Saturday, three days off, Game three, Tuesday, game four, Thursday.

[Zach Lowe]

You had three days off in there somewhere.

[Bill Simmons]

Just between game two and game three for the travel.

[Rob Mahoney]

So Sunday, Monday, and then part of Tuesday off, and then you're playing Tuesday night.

[Bill Simmons]

No, Thursday, Saturday.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And then we go Tuesday, Thursday, and then we just go Sunday, game five, Tuesday, game six, Thursday, game seven. Let's go. Let's.

[Zach Lowe]

Unless I'm Wrong. That's only two days off between games two and three, not three. Sunday, Thursday, Saturday, and then Tuesday, Monday off.

[Rob Mahoney]

What I'm hearing is this sounds a lot like your podcast schedule. Like you just want to align the NBA Finals with your podcast.

[Bill Simmons]

That would be a great idea. I even like that more now.

[Zach Lowe]

Look, I am on.

[Rob Mahoney]

On.

[Zach Lowe]

I AM ON TEAM 232 needs to come back. 232 makes the finals. I, I have a lot of arguments for it. I am PRO2 3 2. None of the catalysts.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, you've done that. You've, you're, you're a catalyst for this one.

[Zach Lowe]

I, I've been, I've been on. I love two three two. And it, it allows you to have the two days of rest fewer times than happens in two two one one one. I think you could. I'm going to go through it at a later date, but I love 23 2. I never have really understood the two big arguments against 23 2, neither of which is Hollinger wrote about this 15 years ago. There's the argument that, well, it's unfair to the top seed because the top seed should always have Game 5 at home. And then it's like, well, it's unfair to the lower seed because it's impossible to win three straight games at home. Well, who is it unfair to? The answer is it's not really unfair to anybody more or less than the 221-11-1232.

[Bill Simmons]

Rob. 232 or 221-11-1111, 11111?

[Zach Lowe]

How about we go the other way?

[Rob Mahoney]

I am but a media member, so I'm always rooting for less travel. Especially when, as Zach said, there's no real actual reason for it to be 111 by the end. I like parking in a place. I like laying some roots. Let me hang out in a final city over the course of those three games on the road. I, I think there's a lot of reason for it.

[Bill Simmons]

It is true. If it was 23 2, we would have gone to all three Indiana games and had a great time. I like Indiana. Miss that place. Great milkshakes in the Garden Square arena, whatever the hell that place is called.

[Rob Mahoney]

I heard you compare it to a cocaine bump and I was just like, wow.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, if you have a milkshake at 10 o' clock at night, you're basically Vincent Hannah. And he just doing bumps at three in the morning at Garden Square.

[Zach Lowe]

Garden Square arena is definitely not what the Gainbridge field House is is called.

[Bill Simmons]

For the record, I like Gar Sperrida all right, Zach Lowe. Robhoney, Glad we finally did one, all three of us together. Thanks to Gahau and Eduardo as well. I'm going to be back on Sunday with another podcast. Zach, do you know your schedule yet or no?

[Zach Lowe]

I don't know. It's just going to happen.

[Bill Simmons]

Podcasts are going to come up in the air. Plus, TV's a mess with the prestige TV.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, we got group chat coming tomorrow morning. I'm going to go second, watch this game and then we're going right back to it. Right back to it with more takes.

[Bill Simmons]

You're the best. Thanks to everybody for listening here and watching on YouTube and we'll see you over the weekend. Must be 21 plus and President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + in President D.C. gambling problem. Call 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York.