The Wizards Win (Something!) and More Lottery Reactions, Plus the Juggernaut Knicks With Joe House, Tate Frazier, and Chris Vernon

Summary

The Bill Simmons Podcast – Episode Summary

Episode Title: The Wizards Win (Something!) and More Lottery Reactions, Plus the Juggernaut Knicks
Date: May 11, 2026
Host: Bill Simmons (The Ringer)
Guests: Joe House, Tate Frazier, Chris Vernon

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Episode Overview

This episode covers instant reactions to the 2026 NBA Draft Lottery, with a heavy focus on the Washington Wizards finally landing the #1 pick, the chain of lottery results, surprise winners and losers (notably, the Clippers and Pacers), big-picture draft debates, and early playoff observations—especially around the surging New York Knicks and the ascendant OKC Thunder. Simmons is joined by familiar guests Joe House (lifelong Wizards fan), college hoops expert Tate Frazier, and “Mismatch” co-host Chris Vernon (Grizzlies aficionado) for a classic, freewheeling conversation mixing deep basketball nerdery, jokes, and emotional fan reactions.

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1. Wizards Score #1 Pick: Decades of Suffering Rewarded

[01:00–05:45]

• Joe House’s Emotional Wizards Moment
  • House celebrates the Wizards winning the lottery after a lifetime of disappointment as a fan.
  • "It is, of course, ridiculous, irrational for a grown-ass man with a mortgage to derive such enormous pleasure ... but I apologize to absolutely fucking nobody! ... Number one is right here, baby!" (Joe House, 02:24)
  • House delivers a mock “acceptance speech,” thanking his wife (for tolerating a lottery-focused Mother’s Day), past GMs (Ernie Grunfeld et al.), tank architects (“the tank of all tanks”), and various DC basketball personalities.
• Bill, Tate & Crew Reaction
  • Bill recaps the Wizards' brutal season (“1 for 24 in their last 25 ... net rating -14.6”), reciting a litany of failures and tanking exploits, noting how “it kind of feels like they deserved it, right?” (05:16)
  • House: “The brilliance of Adam Zag [Silver] ... was the anti-rig. The worst teams actually got the top three picks.” (05:29)

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2. Lottery Fallout: Utah, Clippers, and the AJ Debate

[05:45–14:32]

• AJ — Consensus #1?
  • Bill and Tate discuss whether AJ DeBansa is a lock at #1, despite his somber, “my dog just died” draft reaction.
  • Observations on Utah’s five-year investment in AJ (“all the millions of dollars from BYU…”, 07:32)—is there a scenario where Utah trades up?
  • “If you’re Washington, maybe you call up [Utah] … because obviously Utah is in love with him.” (Tate, 07:57)
• The Trade Value Game
  • Deep breakdown of Utah’s hoarded picks and trade assets (“swap with Lakers, Phoenix first in 2031…”) (11:00–12:13)
  • What’s the price to move up from #2 to #1? Simmons: “Ace Bailey and [#2] for #1 is a lot.” (12:39)
• This Year’s Draft Class
  • The panel grades the top four prospects: AJ DeBansa, Darren Peterson, Cam Boozer, and Caleb Wilson.
  • “Peterson’s high school tape is out of control … looks like he’s going to be Kobe Bryant.” (Bill, 15:33)
  • Peterson’s college approach dissected as “I will fulfill the requirement. Present. Present. HE RAISES HAND... Mr. Peterson is here. Get me the F out of here. I want to go be a pro basketball player.” (House, 16:15)

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3. Strategy, Ceiling, and Fit for Top Picks

[17:00–22:36]

• AJ DeBansa’s NBA Readiness
  • Bill: “He’s already built like a 28-year-old man … some defensive metrics aren’t great, but to me he feels like the perfect kind of [player]... he really wanted to be the number one pick.” (17:00)
  • House: “That’s why … the ceiling with him feels … the highest ceiling… Caleb Wilson is more of an unknown.” (17:51)
• Utah’s Position & Danny Ainge Factor
  • Simmons: "[Ainge] always goes for superstar ceiling. He gives zero fucks ... could just take Peterson at #2 if he's obsessed." (20:51)
• Cam Boozer, Caleb Wilson, and Memphis’ Choice
  • “Memphis couldn’t be happier to add Cam Boozer ... most Memphis pick ever.” (Bill, 22:03)
  • “Boozer ... grown up, franchise type guy ... Memphis just plays it safe there. But … Coward [and] Caleb Wilson, that could be a fun combo.” (Tate, 22:22 & 26:22)

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4. Lottery’s Big Swing – The Clippers, Pacers, and Trade Fallout

[27:52–37:35]

• Pacers Disaster, Clippers’ Windfall
  • “Indy lost 16 straight and ... loses the [#5] pick for Zubots… just a staggering kicking the balls. An all timer.” (Bill, 31:13)
  • Clippers now have multiple options: “They can rebuild, trade for a star, or swing big (maybe Giannis??).” (36:00)
  • “They turned Zubots and Harden ... into Garland and the fifth pick… just amazing.” (35:42)
• League-wide Impact: Potential Giannis Moves
  • Celtics now “probably the favorite to get Giannis” unless Dallas or Golden State step up.
  • “I just want Giannis to be saved.” (Tate, 36:30)

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5. Top 10 Draft Order, Trades, and Draft Philosophy

[40:10–55:24]

• Run Through the Guards: Tier 2 Prospects
  • Deep dive into Darius Acuff, Wagner, Burris, Mikel Brown Jr., Kingston Flemings, and Filan.
  • “Cluster of guards ... Acuff most explosive ... Mikel Brown Jr has a lot of upside … if [he] goes to the Hawks at 8, that’s a nice pickup.” (Tate, 41:53)
• Potential Star Trades and Team Strategies
  • Names like Paolo, Jalen Williams, and Mobley floated in possible trades for the #6 pick (Brooklyn).
  • “This is … what you want to do, you want to keep replenishing with these guys in the first four years.” (Bill, 68:14)
• OKC’s Model and Memphis’ Rookie Deal Observations
  • Vernon: “The value now … is getting these guys that are ... contributors on rookie deals ... The best teams are going to be young. I do.” (64:07)

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6. The Knicks’ Juggernaut Run + Fan Experience

[70:05–79:37]

• Knicks Domination in Playoffs
  • “The Knicks are better than the Celtics. They ran the court.” (Joe House, 70:59)
  • “They have shown us now, twice, both in two different closeout situations, that they have another level and that’s scary.” (Joe House, 75:29)
• Cultural Moment: Knicks vs. Lakers Celebrity Fans
  • Knicks fans “take over” both Philly’s arena and celebrity row. Chalamet gets a mention.
  • “Boston might have better celebrity fans than the Lakers at this point.” (Bill, 90:52)

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7. Wembanyama, NBA Youth, and New Era Superstars

[83:05–89:31]

• Wemby’s Historic Trajectory
  • Is Wemby “the first true one-man/one-superduperstar champion since Bill Russell,” or does history still require a Hall of Fame sidekick?
  • Simmons: “He’s a one of one...so why not him?” (85:36)
  • House: “I’m still stuck in my old guy mindset. But the evidence keeps piling up ... he is a one of one.” (83:05)
• Contrast with Caitlin Clark’s Rookie Experience
  • Discussed are Clark’s struggles, media glare, and differences from Wemby’s path: “Wemby is the like, bring it on. I’ve been training for this my whole life.” (Bill, 86:48)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Joe House, on the Wizards’ tank:
  "A tank so brilliant and beautiful in execution that the league had to change the goddamn tank keepers." (03:45)
• Tate Frazier, on Darren Peterson:
  “He calls himself the Michael Myers of basketball. ... That's maybe a good thing, even though he's a little bit of a weirdo.” (14:32)
• Chris Vernon, on Memphis players:
  “What fans respect is guys that ... give honest effort every single night...both [Boozer and Caleb Wilson] do that.” (58:19)
• Bill Simmons, on Knicks energy:
  “This is probably the best time to be a Knicks fan since 1994...you feel like, holy shit, we have a real chance now.” (77:40)
• House, on the draft class:
  “It’s a position you needed ... you can’t lose.” (101:41)
• Bill Simmons, on Cam Boozer vs. Caleb Wilson metaphors:
  “Boozer is like the perfect guy on paper ... Caleb Wilson’s over there, the bartender. Whoa, look at that guy.” (100:30)

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Timestamps – Key Segments

• Wizards’ emotional lottery win: 01:00–05:45
• Lottery fallout and Utah/Washington trade hypotheticals: 05:53–14:32
• Draft class breakdown, trade ideas, top 4 debate: 14:32–22:36
• Clippers, Pacers, Giannis implications: 27:52–37:35
• Cluster of guards, secondary draft analysis: 40:10–48:35
• Knicks as playoff juggernaut: 70:05–79:37
• Wemby & youth revolution discussion: 83:05–89:31

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Closing Thoughts

The episode moved seamlessly from the ecstatic, cathartic celebration of a long-suffering fanbase—Joe House and the Wizards—into deep-dive, multi-perspective analysis on the lottery’s impact and what it means for franchises at the crossroads. Draft debates pivoted to wider reflections on how NBA team-building has changed, with rookie contracts and star rookie trajectories in focus. The latter half juxtaposed the rise of the Knicks juggernaut, playoff letdowns (Celtics, Sixers), and the NBA’s shifting generational landscape led by Wembanyama and a new wave of talent.

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For Listeners:

If you missed the episode, this summary will arm you with the essential stories, debates, and (often unfiltered) perspectives from Simmons & crew as the NBA enters another pivotal draft and playoff moment.

Transcript

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[Bill Simmons]

Sam. What a special day here on the Bill Simmons podcast live on Netflix. Tate Frazier is here. Employee number one at the Ringer back in 2015. Now a host for us on Ringer, Tailgate Pops on a bunch of our shows. A college basketball expert there, I would say. And more importantly, because Zach Lowe couldn't be here today because he was at the lottery watching Joe House's favorite team. Oh, yeah, we called it to being Joe House. You finally got the number one pick in an awesome draft. I've known you since 1988. September. We ate food and played pickup basketball together. That's how this all started. I have never seen your Wizards even made the conference finals. You've never had a truly awesome player in your team. You've had fun players. You've had good players. You haven't had an awesome player. How are you feeling?

[Joe House]

Well, let me say right up front that it is, of course, ridiculous, irrational for a grown ass man with a mortgage to derive such enormous pleasure, joy for something as dumb as where the ping pong balls land. But let me tell you right now, I apologize to absolutely fucking. Nobody is in the house. Number one is right here, baby. And we got it done with my guy. Number two, John Wall in that chair. And look what we do. We do the Dougie.

[Tate Frazier]

Do the John Wall.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm just glad you have pants on.

[Chris Vernon]

Well.

[Bill Simmons]

Unbelievable.

[Joe House]

I was encouraged to whip my dick out. Now, if you'll indulge me, I'd like to offer. I did prepare an acceptance speech for today. I did a little acceptance speech.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, tape. Let's hear it.

[Joe House]

Thank you.

[Bill Simmons]

Let's hear it.

[Joe House]

So I have to start with my wife because today is Mother's Day and she agreed that we could end Mother's day today at 3:00pm Eastern so I could get in locked in. That focus was crucially important. Good karma.

[Bill Simmons]

Good karma. Plus you probably had some drinks at brunch with her so you're feeling great.

[Joe House]

We did that. The Bloody Marys that that was put us in the right frame of mind. Huge thanks to Ernie Grunfeld, to Tommy Shepard, to Jan Vesely, to Johnny Davis, all the way up to this moment. Finally, with incredible infrastructure, a brain trust who created the tank of all tanks. A tank so brilliant and beautiful in execution that the league had to change the goddamn tank. Keepers, we'll never have a lottery like this again. I'd like to thank coach Brian Keefe, Sharif Cooper, Juju Reese, Jameer Watkins, Alondez Williams. All the guys, they put their poured their heart out. All my old DC guy, John o'. Ran. We'll go all the way back to Wiznuts. Shout out to Wiznats. My guy, Dan Shanhoff, Christian Danetsky. All of the old heads are so over the top with this one. We got our guy. We got the number one pick. And I'm. I'll humbly accept the number one selection today.

[Bill Simmons]

Emotional stuff, Tate. They earned it. They went 1 for 24 in their last 25 with a net rating of -14.6. I think somewhere in there was the Bam Adebayo 83 point game.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Which was one of the most humiliating nights in the history of the NBA. Thank you, Bam. They traded for two expensive former superstars that just didn't play all year. Trae Young and Anthony Davis played it perfectly. Just, just a win from start to finish. 50 wins in the last three years. Tate for the Wizards. And it's finally paid off.

[Joe House]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Congratulations.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah. Worst record in the NBA. It kind of feels like they deserved it, right? Finally we see the team with the worst record get the number one pick. So that was encouraging to see. And I just love Joe House. I mean he's like out of breath right now as he gives us.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I was worried he was going to die.

[Joe House]

It's going to be a sweaty two hours today. Can we talk about how the rig for this year was the anti rig. The brilliance of Adam Zag. It was the tremendous zag was that the teams with the worst records grabbed the top three picks. Now the Brooklyn Nets were on the outside looking in. But when you did your karma rankings with Nick Wright, Magnificent as always, by the way.

[Bill Simmons]

Thank you.

[Joe House]

Shout out. Nick Wright, my buddy. We've never met, but we're friends, you didn't have Brooklyn very high. You thought it was like, did Brooklyn deserve the karma? Right.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought their first rounders were so stupid last year, I had to deduct points. I just didn't understand anything they did. Yeah. When you think about it. And we'll talk about Indiana and the Clippers in a second. Cause that was the most momentous thing that happened, other than who got the number one pick. But for the most part, like, Golden State didn't move up, Atlanta didn't get in the top four as a possible Giannis Suter, um, nothing truly goofy happened. And you would think the league would want to take care of Indiana, a team that lost their best guy to a terrible Achilles injury in a Game seven, and not give the fifth pick to the Clippers. But that's what happened. We have to talk about this. I really want to dive in that Clipper thing. We have to talk about this Washington pick, because it seems like AJ Is the guy. I predicted this to you, Tate, two months ago.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I was just like, this is a rap. AJ Is going to be the guy. And it seems like he's the guy. Couldn't help but mention there was a look on his face after the. After the lottery. There was a picture that got sent around about a half hour later where it looked like not just one of his dogs died, but like he had three dogs that he grew up with, and they all died in. In the same explosion in the living room or something. Is. Do you see a world where he doesn't go number one here? Whether either somebody trades into this spot or Washington says, screw it and takes Darren Peterson.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah.

[Tate Frazier]

It could be like, a Chris Weber situation. Right. Where, like, a team really loves him and they don't like the fit, so maybe they trade up to. To get him at number one. It does feel like Utah obviously has invested. I mean, I don't even know how many years. What, five years? Years. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, you.

[Tate Frazier]

You run the numbers about all the millions of dollars from the BYU and I l to when he went out there to play for high school. Like, he's been in Utah for quite a long time. So I think in his mind, when he got to the Final Four, he's thinking, all right, Adam Silver, he cooked the books for me. I'm going to stay in Utah. I'm going to be a happy camper. This is going to be great. And then when number two popped up, you could just see it. He was like, oh, wow, this is real.

[Bill Simmons]

He's like. He's like, where's Washington? Is that near Philly?

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, I think it hit him in real time. I also, I saw a lot of people saying that he was like, you know, he's. He's no nonsense, all business type of guy. So that was an all business response. I do think he had a little bit of like, oh, man, I'm not going to go to Utah. But it leads itself to a situation. We were already texting about this. I mean, if you're Washington, maybe you call up, you know, and kind of see what they're willing to offer, because obviously Utah is in love with him. There's also the other wrinkle where Carlos Boozer is a scout for Utah and obviously has his son in the top

[Bill Simmons]

three and played for the Jazz for a while.

[Tate Frazier]

For the Jazz. Right. So, like, there may be something where they're happy there at number two and they're going to get Cam Boozer, which means Peterson could even fall back to a 3, 4 range, depending on what Memphis likes. So, I mean, I just think there's a lot of conversations to be had, which makes, you know, the 1, 2, 3, 4 situation even more fun.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, House and I, we've already kind of ruined the podcast with a bunch of texts about this already. And basically, as soon as it all settled down, it's like, all right, House, let's say Utah really wants that number one pick. You only have to drop down one spot. And you could just take Darren Peterson and just make sure he doesn't put creatine in his creation, drinks and creatine in his green juices, and just stays away from creatine.

[Tate Frazier]

It took him a long time to come up with that excuse. You know, it was a good one.

[Bill Simmons]

It was. I was like, you know what? I. I tried out the creatine a little bit, and it really screwed me up.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And it's not for everybody.

[Tate Frazier]

We've seen it happen. Griffin, he had too much creatine one tournament. It was losing his mind. So, I mean, it's happened before. We've seen it in sports.

[Bill Simmons]

I recommended it to Kevin Wilds while I was. When I was trying it out, and now I think he's still doing it. I think he's all in on it,

[Joe House]

but maybe it worked. It works for him. But, you know, the innovation for Peterson was to wait. He waited enough time for, like, the stink of how his season played out to deliver the excuse. Six, seven weeks, we're all done with March Madness. We're not thinking about Kansas basketball anymore. I have Here is what was going on. We knew that there was a true story. Somebody was going to give us the. So I. I admire the. The innovation, the revelation.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes.

[Joe House]

The one thing I will say. Nobody with the Wizards are not calling anybody. Tate. I mean, Tate said maybe the Wizards call. The Wizards are. The Wizards. Phone is sitting here.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. They're taking AJ and you call them

[Joe House]

if you want to call. The phone's right here. You can call. We'll listen. Why wouldn't.

[Bill Simmons]

We're arrested. Just right to Joe House.

[Joe House]

I'll take the call. And you know, the funny thing is the threads so from so many different sources, my phone's been buzzing relentlessly and it's been all these congratulations, but everybody is wondering out loud about Utah because, you know, they made big investment in Debanta. And by they, I mean Ryan Smith and BYU made an economic investment in the Bansa. Being physically in at byu. BYU with the idea that he might. If the ping pong ball.

[Bill Simmons]

They took him. They took him from Massachusetts.

[Joe House]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And he went to prep school in Utah, ended up at byu. And this has been a thing that's been going on.

[Joe House]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't remember if it's four years or five years. And it was always like, wow, if. If they could ever get A.J. they're taking them. They're really familiar with them, the whole thing. It's weird. It's also weird somebody is this excited to go to Utah. We haven't had that a lot in the league in the last 50 years. Haven't been a lot of people. People panting to go their house. But we. We were. I sent you all the picks Utah has. So Utah's been building all this stuff, hoping to do a 125 cents on the dollar type of trade. They have a swap at the Lakers next year in 27. They have the best two of Minneapolis, Minnesota, Cleveland or Utah. They have a swap with Cleveland in 28. They can do the best two of Cleveland, Utah and Minnesota. And I'm saying two different. Two of the best two of the three, the top two, they have their own first and then they have this really nice Phoenix first in 2031 house Devin Booker will be like 34 years old making $80 million on top of some other guys they have. So my thing is, like, if I like. Let's say they come to you and they give you two of those picks. They give you like, sensiba and they give you number two just to move up one spot. And you take Darren Peterson, like, are you sweating that?

[Joe House]

No, no, Two of those picks. I. I was wondering if the offer. If I was being too greedy, looking for something like Ace Bailey, the number two. And one of those the other way it could go. One of those future first.

[Bill Simmons]

So just Ace Bailey and number two to move up to one.

[Joe House]

Didn't he need one of those future first as well?

[Bill Simmons]

And one of those future Ace Bailey looked pretty good. Tate, didn't Ace Bailey want to go there last year?

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, that was what he was angling. That's what a lot of people thought, that his agent was trying to get him to go there. So.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I mean, honestly, Ace Bailey and two for one is a lot. Cause I thought Ace looked good last year. I don't know if I would do that if I was Utah. My thing is, I would trade back. Just because we've been arguing about which of these four guys are going to be the best guy for four months. And I don't even know if we have an answer. Tate, where'd you land?

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, I mean, I do think that A.J. is number one. I feel comfortable with A.J. right? He wants to be the number one pick. That's the number one test. Do you want to be the number one pick? A.J. obviously wants to be the number one pick. Peterson has worked his way through the media with these exclusive interviews to put out that he also obviously is willing to be the number one pick. I thought the interviews at the. What an awkward TV experience that is at the lottery, by the way, with, like, everyone.

[Bill Simmons]

Can we talk about this?

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, please.

[Bill Simmons]

So you have a half hour. You have a half hour. You're espn. You have a half hour for the lottery. And then the next game starts. You spend the first 15 minutes having awkward interviews with the people sitting there, showing all the representatives, and then doing the same ping pong ball video they show every year. The lottery happens. Four massive things happen in the lottery, and they just throw it right to the game. And it's like, what are you guys doing? How could you have handled this worse? I would have had the lottery at 3. And then 15 minutes of discourse. Anyway, go on. So we both had aj we both think AJ should be the first pick, but I wouldn't. It's not like a wimby situation where you wouldn't bet your life he's going to be the best player in 10 years from this draft. It could be any of these four guys, right?

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah. I mean, I think you can talk yourself. I mean, I've seen boards that have Boozer at number one. Right. That seems like he's The. The. The safest of the four pitchers.

[Bill Simmons]

Hollinger had him one.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, Hollinger had him on, which is a. You know, I think it's a fair point because if you look at Boozer's record, right, he's won at every single level. He obviously was national player of the year this year. You like the way that he carries himself. He is going to be a really good player at the next level. I think Caleb Wilson obviously is tantalizing. I know you don't like the hair, hairstyle that he had there at the end.

[Bill Simmons]

Vicious, ambitious hair.

[Tate Frazier]

I think he cleans it up, and I think he's going to be all right. But, I mean, just the high flyer and Sean Kemp has been thrown out there. KG has been thrown out there. Obviously, McGrady a little bit. I also think I see a lot of people with Caleb at the 4. I think he's going to end up being a wing. I think he's going to end up being a three. So I think he's one of those guys. Yeah. I just think he has the athleticism to be out there. Maybe they slot him down at the four, you know, at some level, but I think Caleb's obviously in that conversation. And then Peterson. I saw Peterson in person at the Kansas Carolina game in the fall, and I mean, he didn't even have a great night, but, I mean, puts up 24 points with ease. And you're just like, man, this guy is so smooth, so easy. And obviously the McDonald's All American game, you saw a lot of people defer to him just because if he, you know, just the way he carries himself. He calls himself Michael Myers of basketball. Right. Like, I kind of like that. Even though he's a little bit of a weirdo.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Tate Frazier]

I think that might be a good thing. We told him, we said he was the Kawhi of guards. So again, you can kind of argue

[Bill Simmons]

the Kawhi of guards. House.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah.

[Joe House]

Yeah, I could take the Kawai of guards. I'm not sure he didn't show enough Michael Myers. He wasn't enough of a killer this season.

[Bill Simmons]

I think AJ should be. I think AJ should be first, but I also feel like if you end up with Peterson and more stuff, that's a nice place to be. And the. The. We've talked about this before when Tate and Kyle Mann were on, but the Peterson High School tape is out of control. It's out of control. I mean, he looks like he's going to be Kobe Bryant when you watch this stuff. And I thought Seemed like he had a little too much weight this year. And we were talking, it just felt like he could never get going this season, which of course makes you nervous to take him one, but it also feels like he could just be spectacular now.

[Tate Frazier]

It also feels like he didn't want to learn the college game. I mean, I know that's a little bit banal, but I just feel like it's such a different sport. It was just like, all right, I'll just skip this stage.

[Joe House]

I totally agree, Tate. What he showed us, body language, language wise, attitude wise, is my single goal is to not get hurt. I will do this thing. That is a required step. I will fulfill the requirement. Present. Present. HE RAISES HAND are you here, Mr. Pete? Mr. Peterson is here, he's present. And that's it. Get me the F out of here. I want to go be a pro basketball player. And here we are.

[Bill Simmons]

The VP of common sense would be a little nervous about the Wizards taking a guy who's already had major cramping issues and questions about his demeanor and his body.

[Joe House]

You're talking about the old wizard, Gilbert Arenas. Those are the old Wizards. That's not John. That's old stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know how bringing up the past.

[Joe House]

We're in the present, baby.

[Bill Simmons]

One of the things I love about the banta is there's just no way, like he's already built like a 28 year old man and I don't even know what his body's going to look like, you know, five, six years from now. But he's just got. There's some, there's some interesting stuff with him. There's some defensive metrics that aren't great with them. Hollinger pointed to like, for how athletic he is, um, why isn't more stuff happening on that end? But I just, to me, he feels like the perfect kind of. He could play the three, play the four. He's physical, he rebounds, he, you know, I think he's really competitive. He really wanted to be the number one pick. I think that matters House. And if you drafted him and he actually could talk himself into going there, it's just. I just feel like it's a set thing. You know what it is? I don't know what the variance of it being bad. I don't really see with the band. Said, no, no, no, no. This.

[Joe House]

That's why you're the ceiling with him. Feels like to, to me, the highest ceiling. Just acknowledging that Caleb Wilson is a more of an unknown quantity because the injury limited how much we Got to see him against the. The highest comp. And especially in March Madness, where you really get a chance to see like, okay, these are stakes. The guys are ramped up. Let's see it. So we were deprived of that with. With Wilson, but I feel like ceiling wise the bance is that it's all the whole thing. And he will definitely be cool with being here in Washington.

[Bill Simmons]

AJ Strong, there's. We've had. We've had some more luck lately with nickname Ackerman acronym first names, dare I say if he comes in right away. And I think Tate, he's a 30 minutes a game guy next year, right? In the NBA.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, 100%.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, he could be like a 15 and 8, like a 16 and 8, something like that. Is that conceivable? Yeah.

[Tate Frazier]

And if you look at the front court with Washington, that's a fun front court, like as far as you know what I mean? Like those three guys.

[Bill Simmons]

So you put him and. Him and Sar and Anthony Davis with Trey Young and George and House of Trey Johnson, like that's. That's a kind of a team.

[Joe House]

The floor is BJ Edgecomb. I think what we got out of Edgecomb this year for a guy that

[Bill Simmons]

showed up ready, Big minutes.

[Joe House]

Yeah, yeah, ready. And he took that team. He more than any other player on that team transformed what they were going to be capable of for this entire season. When we did the dumb October, what the hell is Philly going to be? We had no idea. We knew how excited they were about Edgecomb, but he showed up and within two weeks it's like, oh, look at this backcourt. They have Maxi and Edgecomb and it resuscitated the fan base. And if we get anything, I think that's the floor for Debancer. Now maybe that. Maybe, you know, I'm high on my supply right now, baby.

[Bill Simmons]

But we like Sar.

[Joe House]

Oh, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

There's. You know, some of the metrics with him were pretty bad, but I like them.

[Joe House]

He passes his shop blocking stuff. That's what you want. Threes and shop blocking.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, we'll get back to Washington because number two is Utah. Washington had a 52% chance to be in the top four, and Utah was at 45 when a crucial coin flip. I don't know if you guys know it, they had a coin flip with Sacramento to decide who was four and who was five and who got which set of things. And that ended up getting them the second pick, Danny Ainge, who I'm intimately familiar with as a guy that ran my Team forever. And just the way he thinks, he always goes for superstar ceiling. He's always, if he feels like somebody has a chance to be great, he's going to take that guy and he's not going to care where it is in the draft. Like he was the one guy that would have taken Duran over Odin. It's just that, that's just how he rolls. Tate, is it possible he'll look at the high school stuff from Peterson, he'll throw away the Kansas here and be like, this guy's Kobe Bryant. We gotta take him.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, I think there's a high chance. Just because, I mean, I think a lot of times the college tape is just like additive. It's not the definitive case. And I think a lot of times for fans, it is the definitive case because that's what most people see. They don't see all the stuff beforehand. They've seen these K kids since they were 16 years old and obviously Danny Ainge was there the last time the number one pick was traded and Markel Fultz. And there was a lot of people that, you know, were a little upset in the moment that that happened. And then it turned out to be one of the best trades ever for Boston to be able to Tatum there at number three. So he's been there, he's done that, he's seen that. And I think with Peterson, it just sort of depends on how he interviews. Maybe with Ange and if Ange likes the fit, but I just think it could be tantalizing with that.

[Bill Simmons]

It's going to be a boring interview, I'll tell you that much from what we see from. From Peterson, but maybe he likes that.

[Tate Frazier]

You know, maybe I don't think he'll

[Bill Simmons]

be talking about his favorite pod and some books he's read lately.

[Joe House]

He's not going to be like Con

[Tate Frazier]

Knippo, you know what I mean?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah, that's another one. Look, he fits in with the team they have because now they have Jaren Jackson, they have marketing, you know, they have Kessler, who's coming back.

[Tate Frazier]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

They got a great, great year from their young point guard. What they're actually missing is a two guard and a score and like a closer, which that's what he played at Kansas.

[Tate Frazier]

He played the two.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. So House, maybe they're just happy. Happy. Maybe this all cause the W. There's a world where you just look at the board and you go, washington, happy to take the Bansa. Utah super excited to take Darren Peterson. Memphis couldn't be happier to add Cam Boozer, like the most Memphis pick ever. And then Chicago, like, sure, we'll take Caleb Wilson and that's just how it goes. Right.

[Tate Frazier]

And Boozer is kind of a grown up, you know what I mean? Just feels like a guy that's not going to have any sort of issues. You can make him a franchise type guy. Cedric Coward fits in well with him.

[Bill Simmons]

Jaylen Grind Grizzlies. Yeah, they're back. It works. I could see that you agree with that House.

[Joe House]

I sure do. And especially Peterson's athleticism at the pro level and him with. And Ace Bailey, like there is something there in Utah that you could point to and say, you know, let's go ahead and see if we can win some games. Well, I think that team, because you know that poor coach that, that you know, Will Hardy. Yeah, well, Hardy, we haven't seen him really get to cook. He only gets to cook every once in a while. He cooks through three quarters and then. And then he has to turn this, the oven off.

[Bill Simmons]

For the last year he was going to be cooking meth. If he had to push that team

[Tate Frazier]

for three more years, it was breaking bad.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it really was. He was losing his mind probably. But I mean, they got lucky last year with Ace.

[Joe House]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

That they. Ace tried to do that stare down and get them to go to Washington. They just stared him down like, you're coming agent video.

[Tate Frazier]

One of the classic draft videos.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, right. But they've never moved up in a lottery, I don't think in the history of the franchise until. Until this draft. So Peterson I would assume, but I'm telling you, man, if Danny watches enough Caleb Wilson and it's just like this guy's. This guy's the next Giannis. We're taking him. Like they'll take him at two. He. He gives zero fucks. I know their process. Like it's that there's never leaks with Danny because it always takes him a while to figure out who he likes. His. Also his son's running a team and obviously the owner is going to have a say and there's a bunch of people involved, but Danny's going to be the Yoda of this situation. I think from a fun NBA standpoint. DeBance at one and then Peterson going to Utah. Two is fun. Boozer at three and then we don't think Memphis will trade that pick or anything. And then Chicago, just hilarious. They're going to actually end up with a fun team despite themselves and it will go nowhere near the luxury tax, but they'll play With Pace, they have Taylor Jenkins went there. And with Wilson, the only question I have, Tate, there's no chance he drops to five. Right.

[Tate Frazier]

I just think that anything is possible with the Bulls. You know, I could totally see the

[Bill Simmons]

Bulls, like having Illinois.

[Tate Frazier]

Exactly.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, that's like not, not nothing in their backyard.

[Tate Frazier]

They talk themselves into Wagner, great passing vision, all that sort of stuff. And then somehow Caleb Wilson falls to the Los Angeles Clippers and gets to work under Kawhi Leonard, a guy who I think, you know, as far as the hand size, I think is a little bit similar. And I think it would be a perfect kind of tutelage situation where he could learn under. And Ty Lue obviously doesn't really lean on the rookies too much, but it could be a good situation and a good spot for Caleb Wilson. But the Bulls, I mean, I know they just got a new, you know, kind of front office situation, so maybe. But at the end of the day, the ownership is the ownership and they've, you know, done some things in the past that are head scratching and that could happen yet again there at number

[Bill Simmons]

four or not done some things.

[Joe House]

Let me ask, ask you guys this and we'll have a chance to talk to Verno as this all plays out.

[Tate Frazier]

Oh, yeah.

[Joe House]

Memphis strikes me as a team that might be more inclined to take a swing on Caleb Wilson rather than the tried and true steady Cam Boozer. Because, like, does Cam Boozer move the needle for Memphis? I mean, they have an interesting little nucleus there is still yet whatever they resolve with jaw, whatever assets they get back, but they're still super in transition. They're not a team that's going to be looking to try and win, I don't think, 45 games next year.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Joe House]

They don't have the roster for that. So if, if, if Caleb fits like that, where Cedric Coward is like, you're just building a really athletic kind of front court situation.

[Bill Simmons]

A little Memphis boozer dropping a four would be out of control.

[Joe House]

Well, that's why I'm asking Tate, like,

[Bill Simmons]

yeah, that's like he's just feels like I don't know what his ceiling is, whether he's ever going to make a first team all NBA or anything like that. And I probably like him a whiff less than others, but I still feel like, like it's like he's getting guaranteed 22 and 10 guys, you know, total stud.

[Joe House]

Yeah.

[Tate Frazier]

And he'll be super competitive and he's always produced. I mean, I think that's the real thing with Kambuza. Where you almost talk yourself out of it even though it's right there in front of you and you're like he's gonna be an all star. You know he's gonna be a guy that's in that conversation. So I, I really, I think Memphis just plays it safe there. But I, I like what you're saying. House like high IQ transition type team coward Caleb Wilson. That could be a fun combo.

[Bill Simmons]

I could could. I wonder if Wilson could just single hand they rejuvenate John Moran. Well, you look at Chicago, Wilson falls to Chicago at 4 and for the people listening who haven't really followed this draft, Boozer is like the steady 22 and 10. Really knows how to play the game. He's just going to elevate wherever he is. And Caleb Wilson is like the wild card who got hurt before March Madness. All time incredible college athlete. Like just nuts. Like he feels like he came out of like the Faisal Am and Jama era and there's like pieces of Sean Kemp. Tate mentioned Tracy McGrady a little bit. He doesn't have the three point shot yet. There's feels like there could be a little, little chat maybe defensively if he could ever figure out that side of it as like a 4. I know the defensive stats weren't awesome for him but, but I'm looking at Chicago with Giddy and Kobe White and Ayadasunmu. Oh no. They had.

[Tate Frazier]

I got excited for a second. I'm like wait a second. What does Bill know?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, now they don't think about that though.

[Joe House]

Matas and Caleb.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Booz Ellis and Caleb who's not getting just yanked his minutes yanked around by Billy Donovan. Many Mary. All right, we're going to take a break and we're going to come back and talk about the number five pick which became one of the most fascinating things that has happened in the recent history of the lottery. After the the Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. It's been a wild playoff run. Not over yet. FanDuel wants to bring you closer to the court to make all of that action come to life for you the basketball fan. Fanduel the best place to bet the teams players plays during NBA post season. Build a same game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout or try live betting and jump into the action right after. Tip off whatever you want. That's the whole point of live betting. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app right now and play your game. 21 select states are 18 D.C. kentucky or Wyoming game problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. You know what my favorite thing about the playoffs is? I like Durant. And it's usually maybe a Game four, might even be a game five. Game seven, everyone's nervous. There's a different level of energy. But game four, Game five for one of the two teams, there's this realization with like five minutes left in the fourth quarter where it's like, oh, our fate is suddenly in real flux right now. Who's stepping up? What are we going to do? What's calmed down? Can we rise to the moment or are we going to shrink from it? It's as great as opening up a Michelob Ultra. A nice cold one. Crisp, refreshing, the ultimate prize. Plus, as the official beer partner of the NBA, they're giving fans a chance to win courtside tickets, custom merch and more. You could be at one of those games when the pressure rises. Michelob Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Enter now at michelobultra.com courtside Michelob Ultra Courtside 2526. No purchase necessary. Open to U.S. residents. 21/plus. Begins on October 1, 2025. Ends on June 30, 2026. Multiple entry periods. See official [e-mail] Courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and prizes and details. Clippers make this crazy trade with Zubots to the Pacers, and it's top five protected or top four protected. And at that point, it looks like the Pacers are going to be the worst team in the league. Cool. There's a second first round picket there. Oh one. Joe House is back. Joe House. All right. Indy goes 4 and 21 in their last 25. The Wizards go 1 in 24. Indy lost 16 straight and somehow didn't end up with the first spot. Falls back three spots, gets jumped, loses the pick for for Zubots. And this fifth pick is no joke, Tate, because we move with the fifth pick. There's a second tier of guys. Wagler, we mentioned Acuff who might be next. Kyrie. For all we know, Burry's is in there. People love Flemings. Like this is like a potential all NBA someday guard. And Indy just doesn't have the pick now because they traded for Zubots. Just a staggering kicking the balls. An all timer.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, it's an all timer. Can you put your conspiracy hat on here, Bill, and talk about this?

[Bill Simmons]

Because obviously I don't think my. The hat. I don't. There's no conspiracy, right?

[Tate Frazier]

I mean, I'm just saying, ABA wise, right? The Pacers. Do you say. Do you think there's a little bit of, like, they will never let the Pacers get what they deserve because they're an ABA team? That's where I'm going here.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm just like, wow, I never even thought of that. They've never won the lottery.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, I like.

[Joe House]

That's right.

[Bill Simmons]

I like that conspiracy.

[Joe House]

Well, can we talk about the protection? That's the thing. The protection's the thing.

[Bill Simmons]

They basically made it seem like, hey, there's four players we love in this draft. And when we get. But that's not how you can think, because if you end up with the fifth pick and you have to give it away, nobody in the planet would trade Zubots for the fifth pick in this draft. I don't think they would trade him for the sixth, seventh, or eighth picks, honestly. But, yeah, they took this chance with the percentages, Tate, and what happens? They get screwed, and now they have no pick. And for the Clippers, this is a miracle.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, it's amazing.

[Bill Simmons]

Literally, a miracle.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, it's amazing. And obviously, there's a lot of, like, you know, I think this is Pablo Torres nightmare. Shout out to Pablo. This is. He did not want to see this. The Clippers getting some sort of, you know. Yeah, they got something. It's basically their number one pick. Right? I mean, they were able to. They knew what it was. Okay. House has got video again. That's good. Yeah, so that happens. Also, you had. I think it was the president of basketball operations for the Pacers kind of put out a tweet to Kevin Pritchard. Yeah, Kevin Pritchard was just like, I'm so sorry that this happened. We thought that we had good juju on our side. Turns out we didn't. That's never good when you see that as a fan of the Pacers, and, you know, we talked about, like, that would have be the perfect spot for, like, a Peterson or Caleb Wilson or a Booze or one of these guys to kind of slot into this Pacers team that can make a real run as a title contender. And now we're talking about the Clippers and. And them being able to get the fifth pick. And then, I mean, you could talk yourself into ACUV pretty easily there at number five, and I think that would be a big swing and a nice pickup for Ballmer and the Clippers.

[Bill Simmons]

So it's Funny. I think they would take Wagler because. Cause he's six. Six?

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Like Acuff's big guard.

[Joe House]

House.

[Bill Simmons]

I love Acuff, obviously, but you have Darius Garland already and I think they really like Garland. Like, he had some real juice when he showed up that if you love Daycuff, I think you'd have to trade Garland, which would get a little complicated. But. But don't you think Wagner could play with Garland? It's not ideal, but he can play on or off the ball. And he's six foot. Six has some size, like has the shooting. Yeah, I feel like he could do that. Right?

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, I think it, it, it fits as far as like those two guys being able to play together. It's not redundant at any point. And you know, there's a team that's sitting there at number seven that I know that loves Acuff and probably would be willing to trade up potentially if you feel good about them wanting them so bad to get there at number five and maybe you get some more. The Kings really want a. I think that's pretty much a known entity at this point. So if they're willing to move up, that could be something there where you could get even more assets from a franchise that's a little bit desperate. So. But I, I really like Wagler. The only time that we saw Wagler struggle is when Yaxel Linda Borg pretty much locked him up on defense. And he's five years older than him. So I mean, I think there's going to be some growing pains, but he'll get there eventually.

[Bill Simmons]

House, I had this in my notes with Sacramento. If you're the Clippers and you could just move back two spots and take Burry's seven. And also you get to trade with Sacramento, which has been one of the most foolproof ways to get better over the last 40 years and pick up a future pick from them. I would think about that. Cause Burris I like. I, as you guys know, I love Burris. But. But if you're staying at five, I think you. I think Wagner has to be the pick.

[Joe House]

Both of those are. Are tremendous options for, for the Clippers. And it is proof positive that karma is on the Clippers side. Even in the face. Even in the face of all of the great circumvention allegation. Navigation. Somehow or another, the karma landed at a certain way. I suspect that the league is going to land in the same place, which is we are going to get on

[Bill Simmons]

interesting Clippers basketball because the Worst case scenario here is they decide horrible things happen and they just wipe the. Wipe the. We lost house again. Wipe the. They just wipe the. Clippers pick away the number five pick, and that's that.

[Joe House]

I had.

[Bill Simmons]

I had a doozy for you guys. Well, first of all, the clips turned Zubots, who I didn't even think was playing that well this year, and Harden, who didn't want to be there anymore, into Garland and the fifth pick in this draft. So that's just amazing.

[Tate Frazier]

And Mather.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, and Mather. And if they end up resigning him.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, that's true.

[Bill Simmons]

They have two pass now because they could potentially trade Kawhi and trade Garland and just blow it up and try to rebuild around young guys. They could also swing the other way and make a Giannis play here because they're going to have some cap space. They have the fifth pick, which I think is attractive, and there might be a way to send that and make that the focal point of some sort of trade and take Giannis's thing on and try to keep Kawhi and Garland and build around those three. Does that excite you at all?

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, it excites me. I just want Giannis to be saved. I want Giannis to go somewhere. You were talking with Nick Wright about the Hawks and just, you know, if they get that top four pick and trying to package away where Jalen ended up going to Atlanta and maybe, you know, Giannis ends up going to Boston. I thought that was a tasty idea that I thought that, you know, I started putting that together in my brain. I'm like, that makes sense. It's kind of a win. Win for everybody. This is obviously played out a little bit differently here, but if you're Milwaukee, I mean, I felt bad for, you know, shout out to Mallory Eden sitting there, you know, at the number 10 pick. It just looked like, you know, it was like Warriors, Bucks, like some of those teams on the back end that maybe they slot in and were able to, you know.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, none of them hit this.

[Tate Frazier]

None of them hit. So, I mean, this is a way for them to be able to get something for the future that gives them a little bit of optimism and also saves Giannis, because I'm tired of seeing Giannis be wasted. You know, after 20, 21, I thought we were going to have, like, wow, Giannis could end up being the greatest power forward ever. And it is really derailed, you know, over the past three seasons. Obviously, injuries are involved. And then the coaching shout out to Doc Rivers. I think he tried his Best to make things happen. But great BS podcast. Glad he's back on the pod. We need him here.

[Bill Simmons]

It all worked out. He's back where he belongs on the. On the pod every once in a while.

[Tate Frazier]

And if Giannis goes to Clippers, that's great for the league, too.

[Bill Simmons]

Giannis going to the Clippers and being in Los Angeles with Kawhi, who's on a similar window of, I think, you know, how many more years is he going to have with Garland? And they could patch around. They've been really good at building veterans around there. You know, one of the outcomes of today was it feels like it really improved the Celtics chances to get Giannis, if that's what they want to do. Because you saw Atlanta, who ended up in the eight spot, but that was a team that, if they moved into the top four, I feel like they would have been in play for Giannis, potentially. Golden State was another one. If Milwaukee had gotten up there with Atlanta and somehow both ended up in the top four, maybe they keep Giannis at that point, but none of that stuff happened. So I would say the Celtics are probably. Probably the favorite at this point to get Giannis. Unless Dallas got aggressive. But I don't really know what the other team would be. Can you think of any Charlotte? No. Right.

[Tate Frazier]

No, I just don't think Giannis is going to be happy there. And then the Heat is basically just like Milwaukee South. Yeah. You just trade spots with them at that point. I don't think that really works out. And as far as, like, the narrative of Giannis's career, you get Boston behind you, you kind of get the media, the cha. You know what I mean? Like, you can really. You can really change the whole conversation about who you are as a player because, like, the numbers tell a great story about Giannis. You know what I mean? And, like, what he was able to do in 2021, you add in two more titles and you do it in Boston, and you're kind of like the one A and Jason Tatum, you know, coming off injury is kind of like, you know, I wouldn't say 1B, but let's just say Giannis ends up being the guy there. I just think it's a great story for a narrative purpose. And I do think Giannis, I know he turned his nose up to being the face of the league, and I think that was a bad move in general, but I think that can really salvage everything. As far as, like, the Giannis story.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he's in that. Where the kg 2007 spot only he has the title, but wants this next act. And it's time to leave the team he's on. Still, maybe Golden State would be the other one. I mean, Golden State's at 11

[Chris Vernon]

and

[Bill Simmons]

they have the Butler expiring, but I. Unless they just gave the rest of their drafts in a way to get him, I don't know how that excites Milwaukee. Milwaukee's going to want something back.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah. So whether it's, I mean, Jimmy Marquette, guy goes back to Milwaukee.

[Bill Simmons]

I know, but he's hurt.

[Tate Frazier]

You know, there's no. There's no real sell there.

[Bill Simmons]

And if you get Jalen back, you're getting a guy who's going to be second team all NBA. But you're putting him on a bad team. Maybe he'd like that. I don't even know. Or is in a. I don't know

[Tate Frazier]

what he likes after it.

[Joe House]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Who knows? He's all over the place. He had his favorite year of his career, but there were different reasons for it. Can you walk us through 5, 6, 7 with Wagler and Acuff and Flemings and Burris and then it. It gets a little weird. And then somehow Filan has just gotten pushed back. When I feel like maybe he. He could be the guy that jumps. Is there in that whole order, is there anybody you think is in the wrong spot?

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, it's a cluster of guards. And Mikel Brown Jr. Was sort of the guy that I thought was the guy at number five going into the season. He had his own version of a Darren Peterson situation where he had the back spasms and Louisville fans and kind of the people around the team were a little upset about him not being able to play, and there was some kind of back channeling that was happening there. But I still think Mikel Brown Jr. Has a lot of upside. So I think he could be one of those guys that ends up being a steal. If you get him at 8, 9, 10 range, let's say the Hawks get him at 8. I think that's a really nice pickup up for them. I like Wagler at 5. I think Darius Acuff is the most explosive and like the guy that could really become a superstar. I mean, you even saw when they did the graphic on espn, the top four picks, they cut out Caleb Wilson and put a. I couldn't believe that.

[Bill Simmons]

Was that the J. Billis list or that wasn't the ESPN list. That was just the J. Billis only list.

[Tate Frazier]

I think it was a Billis list and that's why they did that. But I, I, for me personally, like, knowing Caleb a little bit, I do think that Caleb is almost better when he's disrespected. Like, if Caleb were to go number one, I would actually be concerned. But Caleb going number four, number five, I feel like that's the best case scenario for his career because he kind of. He's like at the MJ thing where he, like, needs gripes with people to kind of fire himself up. So I think that acuff going at 5 would be great. Burry's is a little bit older, but it just kind of feels like a surefire guard that you can trust even off ball at times if you need him to be there.

[Bill Simmons]

And we know what he is. Burris is. We know he's a two.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, he's a two. And I think he's. He's obviously showed a lot at Arizona last year and a really, really good scorer and player phylons and electric scorer. But honestly, of that group, I feel like Mikel Brown Jr. Is, is the guy to me that gets me excited. You know what I mean? That could end up being a goal on some lists.

[Bill Simmons]

He's in double figures.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

In some of the mock drafts.

[Tate Frazier]

I'm kind of shocked that. I mean, I know a mint fell for. For, you know, a myriad of reasons. I know Mikhail Brown fell for some of the stuff I mentioned with the injuries. But. But if you've watched Mikel Brown when he's on, he is really, really good and he's got the size.

[Bill Simmons]

Who would you compare him to?

[Tate Frazier]

That's a good question. I'm. I'm trying to think. I mean, he's kind of. I mean, he's bigger. That. That's the other part. I think he's physically bigger. I mean, I mean, Drew Holiday maybe a little bit potentially, you know, a Nimhal.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you think he's that kind of defensive player?

[Tate Frazier]

I think he could get there. I think he's offensively great. I just think that Mikel Brown Jr. Has a lot of upside. And I just think that I. The more I see him fall, the more I'm just like, if you're in the 812 range. Because I think 12 is the line. Like, when things go bad is at 12. I think that's when you're like, you know, in okc getting 12. I'm fascinated to see, like, do they just take a swing on a Bennett Sturts? Did they take acquaintance? Like, who is that player that the Thunder go for? We're all like, oh, of course they take Steinbach from Washington, and he turns into debt left shrimp 2.0. You know what I mean? Like, who. Who is the play there at 12. But as far as that clutter of guards, I think they all have different kind of traits that you could fall in love with. But. But I'm like a woggler. Acuff first, and then from there you can kind of pick which one you fancy. But Mikel Brown, I'm excited to see what he looks like.

[Bill Simmons]

So Acuff, if he goes to Brooklyn at six.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah. The Kings will be sick.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, they don't have their 27. Phoenix or Houston. One of them can switch. Houston can switch with them. So they kind of have to be good next year, right? Acuff is an investment in somebody that you're hoping, you know, can be pretty special. Who knows if he's. It's pretty rare for a point guard to come into the league and be awesome right away. And I, you know, there's. There's some feeling and some feedback about the Nets that they might want to say. Fuck it, let's. Let's get. We're tired of the lottery. Just didn't work out for us two years in a row. Right. We tried to. Tried to game this system twice. Each time we got screwed. Let's just trade the pick for a star. I'm going to read you some names. Sadly, I think House might be dead. I'm not sure what happened. They're getting it fixed.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, they're getting it fixed. A part of my mind is concerned about House right now. I think he's on too much of

[Bill Simmons]

a. I think maybe. Maybe the Bloody Mary's hit maybe put something in his Bloody Mary's. And the drug police came. Pala Banchero for the 6 pick. That feels like a no for Orlando. I'm just giving you some guys.

[Tate Frazier]

Okay. I think it's a no. But, I mean, Paolo would say yes, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, but I guess for Orlando, it's like we're way over the tax. We get to reboot a little bit. I. That's a no. I'm just. I'm just listing names. Don't get mad at me. People watching Jalen Williams on okc, which would allow OKC to get out of all this money stuff that they have coming. They could grab, you know, somebody awesome at six. I don't think they would trade Jalen Williams for six. If we're. If we're moving the top three, that becomes a different story. But six now, crossing him off. Mobley gets a little More interesting, especially if Cleveland gets bounced in five and we've seen Mobley kind of level off and just be an 189 guy and Cleveland's way over the tax and could they just reset this? You let Harden go, maybe you trade Mitchell, and this is just a complete reset. Jamal Murray at 15 was the most fun one where you just put Acuff on Denver and you put Jamal Murray on Brooklyn. You have a vet. Giannis has to be mentioned. I don't know why he would go to Brooklyn if nobody was there. And then the only other one at second at Donovan, Mitchell, Jalen Brown. I don't see how that makes sense for Brooklyn.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, I, I, the, the PA one is the one that got my attention the most out of those.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, interesting.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, just because, I mean, the, the Palo thing, just as fascinating. I know they got to figure out the coach. I mean, you got the Wagner situation. I know Orlando would be sick to hear that, but I, I, I'm just fascinated by him because he can turn it on. And when he does turn it on, you're like, oh, yeah, there he is. There's the franchise, you know, top 10 potential player. And then there's times where he's a little bit off and, and I don't know, he's, he's a fascinating situation. I also feel like all the Giannis examples outside of Boston or the Clippers, as we mentioned, it just feels like, you know, Will Smith and Fresh Prince, when he's in the room by himself, you know, it's like, how many, how many of those situations can we send Giannis into?

[Chris Vernon]

Right.

[Tate Frazier]

I would feel bad for him if that were to happen again.

[Bill Simmons]

And how many years does he have left?

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, right.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, if you're trading for him, what are you actually getting back? Sacramento at 7. I think they just take whatever point guards left they don't have point guard.

[Tate Frazier]

I think they're going to try to trade up. I think they're going to try to get the five and get auff. I really do.

[Bill Simmons]

Wow. I mean, that would be a godsend for the Clippers. You end up with this weird trade you made. Somehow you get the fifth pick, you move backwards to get seven, and for Burris, who you probably would have wanted anyway, and then you get more assets and you trade it with Sacramento. There's no way that doesn't work. Atlanta is another one that I think could trade up if they got excited about a point guard. They're also a team, Jalen's from Atlanta, and that, that has to be mentioned.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

If this was straight up Jalen, Dyson Daniels and a contract and the eighth pick, like, whatever that is, how much

[Tate Frazier]

do you think that's possible to happen at this point with. With Jalen Brown? I mean. Cause we, you know, you guys are talking about it. I mean, he is so smart and cerebral, and I do feel like some of this stuff is targeted and pointed on purpose, you know, Right. As he kind of sent the message himself that he's like, I would be interested in something like that. Cause otherwise.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you've been following sports long enough now he's doing the thing where there's just mixed signals anywhere. And it's hard to tell whether he just wants everybody to be talking about him or whether he actually wants to leave or whether he actually wants to stay. And there's kind of. There's no way. You're just trying to grab it all over the map, trying to see what's happening, and you have no idea.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And I honestly don't know. Like, somebody asked me for percentages of if I thought Jalen was going to be in the Celtics next year, and I was like, I don't know. 50%. 50. That's what it feels like. It feels like a coin flip.

[Tate Frazier]

He also won a final. Like, it'd be one thing if he, you know, when they won the championship, he did not win conference finals MVP and finals mvp. I mean, he got those. I thought that would be the end of the whole thing. I'm. I'm very confused by it also. I'm so sad that we didn't get, you know, the Knicks Celtics series after watching what the Sixers showed out. I know. I mean, my God. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Jesus Christ.

[Tate Frazier]

We hadn't even talked about that.

[Bill Simmons]

No. Well, quickly, in the latter, Atlanta, Zay Dallas is nine, and they have Kyrie coming back. And Burris would be the dream Dallas guy here, right?

[Tate Frazier]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

Parent not positive he's going to get all the way to nine, but that's like, oh, my God, what a home run. Putting him next to flag. There's a really fun version of how this lot. The only problem is I can't figure out what Atlanta would take. I assume at 8, they would take a point guard. Milwaukee's just taking whoever the highest ceiling guy is left because they're going to be in a rebuild at 10. And then can you walk me through Yoxel at Golden state at number 11? Cause that just seems like everyone's just going to pencil him in there. Can he go higher than that? He's going to be 24.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, I know Kyle Mann had him, I think, eight or seven or eight on his big board. And Yaxel is one of those guys where he is older, which makes sense for Golden State, right? It's a team that. It's obviously a very old team. And I know Draymond just had that moment with Barkley, talking about Barkley's like, old teams don't win anymore. So I, you know, it's a young man's game, but I think Yaks. So my only issue with him going to Golden State is, yes, he is older, but, like, the maturity is not older. Like, his maturation does not match the age. And I do feel like, you know, you bring in another Michigan guy with Draymond. Michigan State guy. Kerr just resigned. The extension, it's sort of running it back. Like, you don't want to recreate a whole situation and a whole problem again where Steve Kerr is like, am I. Like, where am I in the twilight zone? Like, why is this happening again? But it does, like, make sense on paper. Defender, kind of nice insurance on the wing, you know, as Jimmy is rehabbing and get him back, and he could be a nice piece for them. That could be. You know, I mean, he doesn't have to be a scorer by any means, but I think defensively he's a nice cog in the machine. But I still would be a little concerned about the maturation. That would. That would be the thing where the age seems like it matches. But I'm not sure that the. The. The way that he actually.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the one that I think so, Mara, the center is anywhere from like 8 to 15, depending on.

[Tate Frazier]

That could be an OKC move, too.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, that's what. So I had him written down tentatively for OKC at 12. But I also think there's a world where they try to trade up in the top three, which I talked about Thursday. And some people are saying, because I had AJ Mitchell and 12 for the three, and some of the feedback I was getting was, AJ Mitchell's contract is so good, why would they trade him? Why wouldn't they look at Jalen Williams instead? Because he's going to be at like 45, 40, 48, 50. And they've proven that they can be running at all cylinders, whether he's there or not. And I was wondering, could they trade Jalen Williams to Memphis for KCP in the 3? It feels like a presti kind of move, right?

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

If you're in Memphis, they're like, holy shit, we have Jalen Williams and Cedric Coward now. And if you're okc, you're basically resetting the clock and you're getting, getting some sort of, you're getting boozer Caleb Wilson, you're getting one of those guys, maybe even Peterson.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah, they know they have to break it up at some point. And also it looks like it works without J Dub, which is crazy. And AJ has been great so far and I saw some people saying he looked like a top 50 player. So. Yeah, I mean I think Presti will be working the lines. I think that's a good call. I mean but I, I think at 12 to me is where the line is to see because like Dalen swains in that range. A die mar is in that range. We also didn't mention Kingston Fleming, who I do. I forgot to kind of mention in the cluster of guards. I do think Kingston Flemings is pretty fascinating too.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I don't know what to make of him because. And I don't from what the rankings are, it seems like a lot of people because we've seen a little like fears. I know he's better than fears last year, but same kind of thing. Like just a young, athletic, fast guard. What is he. Whereas we had it felt like a big. A little more of a sampler size with Wagler and Akuff.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But I know Fleming's at one point Fleming's was the most number five in everything. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn for small business. Every hire matters, but the time and resources required to hire right are Limited. Luckily, LinkedIn Hiring Pro is built for that reality. It's your hiring partner, designed to help you hire with confidence by surfacing only the right candidates without turning hiring into another full time job. Hiring Pro streamlines the entire process, from drafting your job to shortlisting candidates and conducting AI powered screening interviews. Its conversational interface lets you describe what you need in plain language. No recruiter jargon needed. Nearly 60% of hires find a candidate to interview within a week. With Hiring Pro, you spend less time searching and more time connecting with the right talent. Hire right the first time. Get started by posting your first job for [e-mail] Simmons that's LinkedIn.com Simmons terms and conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by Amazon. Life's full of little surprises like spilling coffee everywhere five minutes before a meeting or reaching for a diaper and realizing the bag is empty. Kind of like draft night. You think you know the plan, then everything changes. Look, life can be unpredictable, but everyday shopping does not have to be with great savings on essentials. Amazon helps you cover the basics and the surprises. Because when life throws you a curveball, it's nice knowing there's a place you can count on Amazon. Save on Essentials. Save the everyday. This episode of the Bill Simmons podcast brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable Internet means everything for your business and even this podcast. That's why I trust Spectrum Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with Internet, advanced Wi, Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24. 7 US based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit spectrum.combusiness to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. Yeah, last thing I want to mention on the lottery, Miami's at 13, and if you factor in two, teams usually do something weird, right? Odds are they're gonna get like Phylon or somebody good. And it just, it always happens. They got Karm Butler that year. They got Tyler Herro that year. They got Bam that year. They're always like, kind of lingering from in this early teens range. A couple people screw up and all of a sudden somebody awesome. And as you know, I don't like Miami Salon worse.

[Tate Frazier]

What about, like, Native Mint? There's.

[Bill Simmons]

It seems like he's dropping.

[Tate Frazier]

He is dropping, but I just don't think there is the tools that are there. Like, I, I'm not completely out on native men. I know that every time I see a new board, it's like Native Ben's down to like 18, 20 range. But there were talks last year going into the season where Native Mint was going to be in the top four. He was going to be, you know, instead of Caleb Wilson, it was Native Mint, you know, so I still think there, there's maybe a team that talks themselves into taking him in that 14, you know, 13 to 15 range.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, so I'm putting you on the spot. The best player from this draft will be 10 years from now. People are throwing this clip back in your face.

[Tate Frazier]

I don't want to say it because I don't want it to get thrown back in his face, but I'm going to say it because why not Caleb Wilson?

[Bill Simmons]

That's not just a North Carolina thing.

[Tate Frazier]

No, I mean, I honestly, I could take the blinders off and I could just say to myself, my God, this guy is incredible. So, I mean, A.J. caleb.

[Joe House]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Tate just said he thought Caleb Wilson was going to be the best guy from this lottery in 10 years. Chris Vernon is here, by the way. Host of the Mismatch, future Memphis Grizzly winner of the third pick in the NBA draft. And I can't wait to hear who you want them to take.

[Chris Vernon]

Oh, listen, this Boozer Wilson debate is going to feed fans, families, my. My family for the next month and a half. This is going to be great because I think the expectation, isn't it, right. The ban still will go one, Peterson will go two, because they don't need a four in Utah. And so the Grizzlies, they're sitting at three. That's going to be the debate. Everybody is going to try to decide whether or not they prefer Cam Boozer or they prefer Caleb Wilson, the sure thing. Or like what Tate says. The guy.

[Bill Simmons]

The ceiling guy.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah, right, the ceiling guy.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, so who. Let's dive into the psyche of Memphis and the grit and grind Grizzlies. That was the most beloved Memphis team of all time. Who is more Memphis of those two guys?

[Chris Vernon]

I mean, I will say that Wilson is. Wil Wilson is. There's two. There's two ways to go. Look at it, right? Because I don't think people would necessarily think Marc Gasol, but Marcus all is, like, totally embodied Memphis.

[Bill Simmons]

Now.

[Chris Vernon]

He did go to high school there. He had an awareness of the city prior to. But he is a serious. Doesn't take any crap, gets the job done. Right. Like, he doesn't go about it in some kind of flashy way. So I think that could be viewed as blue collar. Certainly Wilson has got the whole like. Like I have this crazy motor that kind of. So I think, honestly, I think both of them can fit in terms of, like, the city. Wilson's the kind of guy that, like, will, like. It'll be every kid's favorite player. He'll be the one smiling like he's got. He's got, like, a personality, whereas Boozer is obviously much more businesslike. But what. What fans respect is guys that, you know, especially in a blue collar town like Memphis, they just respect guys that give it honest effort every single night. And I think that both.

[Bill Simmons]

Both. You're getting both of that.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah, both. Both of them do that, right? They go about it in different ways. Certainly Wilson's flash year, but you could be playing against anybody, and Boozer is still like you. Boozer doesn't half ass it against anybody. And so it's just the idea that you, like, like bring your lunch pail to work and you give an honest effort every night.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, Tate, give us your last thoughts because Double House is going to come back into the zoom. It feels like we feel special. We've fixed the special effects house double. During the. During the podcast, my son, he was in two feeds.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah. He was gone open. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It was a disaster. So give us your Memphis take before we go. Who do you want? The tech? Tate.

[Tate Frazier]

I think they should take Caleb Wilson. Cause I think Cedric Coward and Caleb Wilson is a fun combination also. Like John Morant, the high flying John Morant.

[Bill Simmons]

That's. That's a league pass team.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

Like this is.

[Tate Frazier]

You get a perfect. You get dunk. Highlights galore. You got two high IQ guys with Cedric Coward. I think that's great. It would be fun.

[Chris Vernon]

Hold on, hold on, hold on.

[Bill Simmons]

Boozer play on Chicago. The. The dad.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

I have a vague memory of him ending up there, and it wasn't. Wasn't great.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah, well, and. And let's. Let's pause on the whole John Moran flying around, dunking.

[Tate Frazier]

I'm saying back in the day, we can restart the clock on a different guy.

[Chris Vernon]

You know what I mean?

[Tate Frazier]

Like, let's have some fun.

[Chris Vernon]

I gotta tell you, Bill, in absolute stunned disbelief that Tate prefers the Carolina guy to the Duke guy. This is crazy.

[Bill Simmons]

I know.

[Chris Vernon]

I like. I think it's a win.

[Tate Frazier]

Win. Verno.

[Joe House]

Tate.

[Bill Simmons]

Tate will call it like it is, but if it's a UNC guy that he loves, he's gonna ride for that UNC guy.

[Tate Frazier]

If you play in Georgia, I would say the same thing. I'll say that.

[Bill Simmons]

Tate, we'll see you on ringer tailgate this week. We're letting you go. Thanks for. Thanks for hanging on, especially with the traumatic House disappearance. I'm glad we were able to go through.

[Tate Frazier]

I'm worried about him. I hope he gets in. Thanks, guys. Good to see you.

[Bill Simmons]

Bye.

[Chris Vernon]

See you, Tate. Verno, how drunk is he? How drunk is House?

[Bill Simmons]

House was fairly coherent.

[Chris Vernon]

What?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he's popping back on right now.

[Chris Vernon]

There is no chance if Memphis would have popped up one. I'm on this thing. Did you.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you feel like you just wanted to get in the four?

[Joe House]

Did.

[Bill Simmons]

Were you like. Yes.

[Tate Frazier]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Cause that's how I think with this draft. You just want to be in the four.

[Chris Vernon]

It was just, you know, whenever you go through miserable punted seasons, you just want the end to justify the means. And so being in the top four meant that it was worth it. And, you know, like, I. I'll give you, for instance, the very end of the season, and this is the worst thing to go through is when you're playing. When you're playing games where it's like, who wants to lose more? But you guys even talked about it. I recall there was a game that was coming up with Memphis vs Dallas, and people were like, this thing should be on league pass.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Chris Vernon]

And Memphis was better at the end of the season at losing on purpose. Well, now you look up at the end, Dallas is picking nine and Memphis is picking three. They had the same record. They had the exact same record record at that game.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

And now, I mean, that is how. That's how. That's how sometimes this can fall. And so if you're, if you're a Dallas fan, I think you're looking at and go, whoa, what was the point of that? We're picking nine, right?

[Bill Simmons]

We had that. We had that the Durant year. Yeah, the worst team. Terrible. And then we fell to five. We fell to the Jeff. Jeff Green pick. It was. It was devastating.

[Chris Vernon]

Oh, Bill. I hosted a bar filled with Memphis Grizzlies fans on espn.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, that's right. You had the, the Mike Conley that.

[Chris Vernon]

You got my Conley on espn. We had one huge blow up doll of Greg Odin in a Memphis uniform and one huge blow up doll of Durant. And oh, my God, the amount of alcohol that was consumed that night after it popped up four. And the radio broadcaster for the Grizzlies like, got on the stage and he's a. Like, Chris Bosch was drafted number four. And everybody was like, you, house, congratulations.

[Joe House]

Congratulations, baby.

[Bill Simmons]

We fell to five that year. And it was like, are they going to take Jeff Green or Yi Jin Lan? And I was like, shoot me. Where's the bar?

[Joe House]

The chairman. The chairman. Bruno, who are you gonna take? You're gonna take a three.

[Chris Vernon]

Oh, I just right before you came on, when Tate was on, I'll say, saying, like, I got six weeks of cam boozer Caleb Wilson debate. This is going to be great. This is going to be great because there, look, I love both of them. I don't think there. There's not like a wrong choice. And that why, that's why everybody is euphoric, because if you were able to get in the top four, you're not making the wrong choice. That's how it feels. At least today.

[Joe House]

I felt that way as the lottery happened this afternoon. I was like, as long as we get in top four, I'm cool. I'll take anything of them.

[Bill Simmons]

I asked tape before you guys came on, if OKC offered Jalen Williams to Memphis for the third pick and took back the Caldwell Pope expiring, would you consider it?

[Chris Vernon]

I don't think they would because I think what's happening now.

[Bill Simmons]

I, he, he was what was he, second or third team all NBA last year?

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He was like 23.

[Chris Vernon]

Here's, here's how I tell you. But he's already signed his contract. But, and one of the things we are learning is that I think this is all evolving where you're going to have to have major contributors on rookie contracts and probably multiple major contributors on rookie contracts.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, that was like the Celtics with Joe Missoula in the playoffs when guys like Hugo and oh no, they, he didn't play them. But technically I agree with you. I think you're right.

[Chris Vernon]

That is what's going to happen because what ends up happening is because you can have second tier stars, right? So Desmond Bain signs a Max and Franz Wagner gets his 180 million. And so then you've got when. Because that's how the only way you're going to keep these guys is by paying them. But there's only so many that actually probably move the needle enough. And then if you accumulate a couple of them now that's got to be good enough. Right? Like and, and you're up against it. And so, so I do think that the value of the value now more than ever is getting these guys that are. Can contribute immediately because now you get them for four years and you've got a good enough, you're able to build out. You think about even what I just went through with the Grizzlies. Yeah, the best team was when those guys were on the rookie deals. That was the, that's when you were able to have Tyus Jones and DE Anthony Melton and Kyle Anderson and Brandon Clark and like your bench was really good. Good too. But I think kind of the only way you can have like you're either going to overpay a bunch of starters, right. And or you're going to have these guys on rookie deals. I think the best teams are going to be young. I do.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, that's why the, the Celtics are in such an interesting spot with Jalen here. If they can try to trade, you know that, that would be one of the logic, especially with the way that Tate and I talked about how the draft broke. Where you have like Brooklyn at 6 is like, well, we don't want to suck again. Can we get a star for this pick pick or Atlanta at 8 and could the Celtics end up if that's. What if Jalen does want to leave or they decide maybe it's time. Is that the kind of trade that if, if Giannis isn't Sitting there trying to get a young guy back on a cheaper. On a cheaper thing and then try to spend the money elsewhere is a way you agree with that house or would you rather keep Jalen and make a run at it?

[Joe House]

So I, I think you're not that far away if you have both Tatum and Brown. And we kind of have a good track record of that based on the.

[Bill Simmons]

Unless Jalen wants his own team, that's where the problem. Would you, you, you.

[Joe House]

At some point somebody needs to sit down with him and get to the bottom of this so that we're not dealing with this nonsense, you know, 15 year old drama silliness, the twitch and whatever.

[Bill Simmons]

Can that person not be Tracy McGrady?

[Joe House]

Oh, I, that's. That was.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you see that last night? I was so happy the was that I watched it afterwards. I didn't actually talk to Jalen. I just, just saw. I noticed the body language and I was also down 3:1 and blew it. And I know how frustrating that. What are you saying? Also, Jaylen just said this was the best year of his career. So his body language was bad. Like he. That was a mess, man. They should have rehearsed that one better. We know you talked to Jaylen Brown. It's fine. Just admit it.

[Joe House]

I want to say though, to Verno's point, that here in Washington, the defense that the decision makers offer up for why they traded Denny Avdia was because of wanting a core group of guys all between ages 19 and 22 that are basically on the same contract trajectory and let them all come together at the same time. That's why this number one pick is especially valuable for the Washington situation because now you have four or five guys that are all in that same class, that same category and it. We'll see if any of them actually, you know, if it plays out.

[Chris Vernon]

But.

[Joe House]

Promising Sar. Promising Keyshawn George. Promising Will Riley. Promising this number one overall pick. And you put a veteran or two into it and it's interesting.

[Chris Vernon]

Well, and you really just need two of them to hit right? Because look, Oklahoma City was able to move off of Giddy. Giddy was a hit, right? Like that's a hit pick. And then by the time it was time to pay him, they're able to swing that into Caruso because they had other ones that were going to hit right.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, okay, see, we got to talk about them really quick. They're seven and oh, in the playoffs, we haven't talked basketball at all. We've been talking about the lottery for four hours.

[Chris Vernon]

They're seven.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh in the playoffs. They've. I talked about Thursday night this AJ Mitchell situation where he's going to make $3 million a year next year. And this is a guy who feels like he could almost run his own team at this point. They have the big Jalen Williams contract and big SGA and Chet and they're going to have to do some gymnastics pretty soon. They have this 12th pick which to Verno's point, this is what you want to do. You want to keep replenishing with these guys in the first four years and it just feels like they're going to be in this situation over and over again the rest of the decades. Decade. It's really starting to feel like they could be in the finals or the Western finals, 60 plus wins here for I don't know, next seven, eight years. And this 12th pick is going to be a good player.

[Chris Vernon]

And you didn't even mention. Right. They got the Sorber kid. He doesn't touch the floor. He doesn't. And, and Topich. He doesn't touch.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean they got Wiggins doesn't play anymore. That guy, that guy would have played minutes for real teams this year.

[Chris Vernon]

Oh for sure.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. We. Well no we don't. We didn't play subs House. So before the latter I was on a facetime with my dad for 15 to 20 solid minutes. He's still really upset about the Sixer series and the Knicks series made it worse. Watching the Knicks, which that game happened tonight, it was a sweep. It was embarrassing. It was really the most humiliating weekend you could possibly have in Philly where you, you not only get waxed by the Knicks, but you have 70 to 75% like for real of Knicks fans in there just completely taking over the building. And then by the end of it you go from a week ago where you had the highs of this game seven. Oh my God, Paul George is in a disaster. Hey, Embiid's back. Maxi Edgecomb. And it's so exciting to a week later being like, is Daryl gonna get fired? What's gonna happen? How's this gonna play out?

[Chris Vernon]

Out.

[Bill Simmons]

I just, my dad was just like, why didn't we do that against Philly? Why didn't we put in beat and pick and pop stuff? Why didn't we just hound Maxi? Like what the fuck are we doing?

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah, especially with the way that obviously they've got a ball dominant guard and Brunson is a drop coverage demolisher. Right. It was like Embiid. I don't care what his Stats were he was unplayable against them because there's no. There's no good choice to make. You cannot hide him. And to Mike Brown's credit, he was not going to let him be hidden. He was going to be put in every single action until you either pulled him off the court or you just lived with us bombing you out. And they just lived with getting bombed out.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, well, they did that with the Celtics too. And we didn't make any of the threes, but I also didn't feel like we attacked a bead like that House.

[Joe House]

Well, I want to be as respectful as possible, but like this version of Celtics fandom, you guys are fucking delusional. You weren't good enough. You didn't have the talent. Ogi, whose name I'll never get right, and Carl Anthony Towns are better than what the Celtics put out in terms of a front court. Like, you had no answer for Embiid or any of the size. They had no answer for Paul George playing, playing defense. The Knicks are better. The Knicks are better than the Celtics. And the Knicks ran the court.

[Bill Simmons]

I told my dad we might have been saved by actually getting our ass kicked in a real way by the Knicks, especially if Tatum was 100% so.

[Chris Vernon]

Well, because then it convinces you that, like, hey, that we got this many wins because we gave an honest effort every night. We were try hard. Right. And try hard when the playoffs come around, get exposed because you can't just win. Yeah, by. By with depth and playing hard. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

You had a team like that. What was your Memphis team like that recently? Like four or five years ago you had a team like that?

[Chris Vernon]

Sure, three.

[Bill Simmons]

Three years ago.

[Chris Vernon]

It's why, it's why people didn't believe in them. Right? It's like, because when it comes, when it comes playoff time, like there might be the one Luke Canard game or there might be the Tyus Jones game. But then, but as you, as you. You go up levels in the playoffs, they are just going to hone in on that and then you're going to find out like, okay, I've actually got really five that can play in this. I don't really have 10 that can play in this. I mean, hell, even. Even in the Minnesota series, during one of the Grizzlies best seasons they made, they. The Grizzlies benched Stephen Adams and played Xavier Tillman at center because Towns just played him off the floor completely. They were like. And that was in the first round of the playoffs. It's like once you can, if you Give an honest effort and you play hard every single night. You can win a lot of regular season games and I'll give Missoula and the Celtics credit for doing that. But I think House is right when it came down to talent, in the end, it's still, you know, Nia's Kada and it's still Sam Houser and it's still. Yeah, yeah, right.

[Joe House]

Is it? And it's not your fault. It's not the Celtics fault that Embiid came back and was capable of being effective. You couldn't really game plan for Embiid being part of the playoff series.

[Chris Vernon]

Also, how. Who could have predicted Derrick White being awful? Like, not like.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, they put a lot of miles.

[Chris Vernon]

He was awful.

[Bill Simmons]

One of the things we were talking about was Paul George comes back from the suspension. By the way, Skip Bayless, who I can't say I'm a fan of the playoff P P E E was legitimately funny. House, I'm furious we didn't come up with that joke.

[Joe House]

All the years we' together, we never.

[Bill Simmons]

How do we not come up with playoff? PE was so good. But he comes back and he's got his legs and Bead comes back from I God only knows where he was and he has his legs for a week. And then by the. By the time they got to these last two Knicks games, both of them looked like the guys that we picked at our worst contract strap. So they. They got this little thing. I still feel like the Celtics were a little better than a tryhard team when Tatum came back back. I just think the whole thing of bringing him back mid season combined with them bailing on the bench was pretty weird.

[Chris Vernon]

You also started three guys that never play in games.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that was. That was desperate.

[Joe House]

That was desperate.

[Bill Simmons]

The Ron Harper start will live in infamy. Nobody. Nobody still knows what happened with that. Can we talk about the Knicks quick? They've won three, seven straight games. Some of it can be attributed to using Towns and running more stuff through him. And some of the passing, which has been really impressive and becoming less Brunson centric. They had a shitload of threes today. I think they were making. They were nine for 10 at one point from three in the first quarter. But what they've done for Towns, which I always kind of wondered why they didn't do it. Maybe I didn't know if he had it in him, but what they did, it just feels like they're more interesting now. House, it. It.

[Joe House]

It's incredible. And I give Mike Brown a ton of credit. This 3 of assists that he's, he's at gotten at least 6 assists in however many straight games. And tonight, you know, I think he had seven assists in the first quarter.

[Bill Simmons]

And they're real assists. They're not like I passed you a shot and you dribbled and took a three. They're like backdoor layups and hitting guys, cutting and stuff.

[Joe House]

The thing to me with this Knicks team is they have shown us now twice, both in two different closeout situations, that they have another level and that's what's scary for this run that they're on because they did the exact same thing to Atlanta. Like, yeah, how can they make all of these buckets and get rolling so quickly in a first quarter and basically put the game out of reach in a first quarter. They did it twice. That validates what they did to Atlanta and the Sixers. You know, I think, think comparing them to Atlanta, that was a more formidable foe, a more form, formidable situation. Even though they had him down three zero.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Joe House]

But for, for sure they are, they, they flew today. They were at a different kind of place altogether in terms of the speed and the force that they played that first quarter and the game was over.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah, that's, that's twice, right? That's twice that they, that they've done. A team with theoretically their backs against the wall should have a grand slam effort and they just humiliate their thr.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean you look at the seven game winning streak, they won by 16, they won by 29, they won that last game in Atlanta by 51. And then you go in this series and they were, they had a 39 point win, a 14 point win in game three that was actually not even as close. And then the blowout in this game, I like when I'm seeing blowouts in the playoffs with the team like that, that's a different level that tells you like not only that, that's, I always, the teams that fall behind always makes me nervous. And what's weird is the Knicks were one of those teams that they always felt like they were down 8, 10 with, you know, 8 minutes left now, now they're blowing everybody out. They look really good. I mean this is probably the best time to be a Knicks fan, I would say, since 1994 where you feel like, holy shit, we have a real chance now to win. Even last year, you know, they obviously were the favorites in the Indiana series. They just beaten the Celtics, but they weren't supposed to beat the Celtics. That was a weird series. Like they're kicking asses now and I, I don't know. I like, I actually. Do you think they go toe to toe with one of these west teams burnout from what you've seen?

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah, I do. I also think that like Detroit was mega physical against them and really bodied them this year. So like if they can get through that, if they can get through, because I think it will eventually be New York and Detroit and go look at those games this year. Detroit pumped them out and so we'll see. I do think they would need like full on OGN and OBI to be able to, to deal with that. Right. Cause again you're going up a level. But if they get past that because they'll be battered and bruised by the time they get through there. But for sure, I mean I. It's very plausible that we could see, you know, we saw them in the in season tournament for what it's worth, right at the very end. And, and you know.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, that's so nice of you to bring that up. But you remember, I like it.

[Chris Vernon]

But everybody cared.

[Bill Simmons]

You won some Adam Silver brownie points.

[Chris Vernon]

No, they did care. Well, look, Adam Silver's on my good list. We popped up three. House popped up one.

[Bill Simmons]

Like that's true.

[Chris Vernon]

He's. I'm cool today.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you know what happened Nick Wright and I talked about on Tuesday. All the mean stuff LeBron said about the city they had to atone. Oh, that was vicious. Vicious comments.

[Chris Vernon]

It wasn't just him. We got dog piled all year. All year. Draymond.

[Bill Simmons]

Can we build a hotel in Memphis? Can we build a four, a four floor Mandarin Oriental or a montage? I mean, do that Verno.

[Chris Vernon]

I don't know. You're the richest guy I know. Help us out.

[Bill Simmons]

I'll invest in it. It's 41 nights a year plus playoffs. I think we at least know it's going to be booked some nights.

[Joe House]

I agree.

[Bill Simmons]

I've never heard a hotel. What is the hotel that gets this much hatred? We had influencers going there and doing videos. Like this is amazing.

[Chris Vernon]

The Hyatt, I think. And I mean like. And the. And the west that I suppose the one across the street.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean it's.

[Chris Vernon]

I guess it's not up to their.

[Bill Simmons]

Their house. NBA people. NBA people and Joe House. Love, love a good hotel.

[Joe House]

I stayed at that Hyatt and actually I was there at the same time because I went. Visited Verno, did the show with Verno and it was during the season and both the Dallas Mavericks were in for a couple nights was in I was in an elevator with Sanguine and it's a very nice Hyatt but it is not like what they encounter in other cities and it's a super easy walk straight down the street to to the

[Bill Simmons]

but they want big ass suites, they want good room service, they want all

[Chris Vernon]

that and

[Joe House]

we're

[Chris Vernon]

that's what the big conspiracies. We ain't got enough.

[Bill Simmons]

You gotta import some.

[Chris Vernon]

I mean we don't have enough flight. I guess we don't have enough flights either.

[Bill Simmons]

This episode is brought to you by Holiday Inn by IHG if I'm ever traveling for work, where I stay is so important. I actually really care about this because sometimes I even have to do a podcast. And wherever I'm staying in general, I don't go on the road that much. But when I go on the road, I like to be in a nice hotel with a nice room. I'm spoiled. If you sound like me, check out Holiday Inn. It has a whole new energy, especially for business travelers. You'll see it everywhere from refreshed rooms to reimagined social spaces and dining done right with new drinks and dishes. And for business, there are flexible spaces that work for the way you work. It's a new day and a new stay. Book [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by Panda Express. It's not always easy to show love, but there is one way to express how you feel. Food. And what better way to say I love you than with Panda Express's delicious, authentically cooked American Chinese cuisine. Whether it's eating with someone you love or while watching the team you love, you can pick from tasty options like orange chicken, honey walnut shrimp, kung pao chicken and black pepper sirloin steak. Have you eaten yet? Order now or visit a Panda Express near you. We're taping this before game four of Timberwolves Spurs. What Wemby did on Friday night was terrifying. Who knows what's going to happen in Game 4? But that was, I thought, such a fascinating game just for the future of the league that somebody age 22 could do that. I got this email that I thought was was kind of broke my brain about the Wemby situation we're in basically. So it's this guy Bradley from la, Laker fan. And he said if you look at all the guys who became hall of Famers who won titles who were under the age of like 24, which is basically Magic Johnson, Kobe, Kareem Duncan, Wade Kawhi and Bill Rush Russell. That's the list. All of them had an older, awesome teammate that helped them win. So Magic had Kareem, Kobe had Shaq, Kareem had Oscar Robertson, Duncan had Robinson, Wade had Shaq, Kawhi had Duncan and Parker and Ginobi, and Russell had Koozie and Charman. So the question is, does this mean the spurs are going to lose, or does this mean Wemby is great enough to break history and become the first guy who's like, I actually don't need a Hall of Fame older teammate. I'm going to do this myself. How good is he to you, House? Like, what's the ceiling for you? As we head into the next five

[Joe House]

weeks here, I hate to confess this. I'm still stuck on my old guy mindset. I mean, the evidence keeps piling up that he is a one of one capable of sort of vanquishing the entire, you know, 20, 30 year longer than that history that we've built up that you. There needs to be. There's steps to this. So they need to go in and take a loss. I thought that Game 1 against Minnesota was like, welcome to the playoffs. That's our. You know, they ran through Portland without too much trouble. The first game where they had a team come out with playoff intensity, the playoff physicality, you know, they were constantly into Wemby's chest, at his legs the entire game. Game was that Game one. And yet the ability for San Antonio and Wemby, they just very coolly recalibrate, reset. And that game three, it really challenges the old artifice.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And maybe this is a new era, Verno.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah. You know, there's part of me that thinks it might be. And it goes back to what I was saying about teams being young. I remember years ago on the Mismatch, I did this whole bit where I think the Celtics had lost at some point. Maybe they were like when the Jays were like, around 25. And I was like, look, you go back and look through the history of the NBA, and everybody's like, 27 before they do it for the first time. And that is Michael Jordan, and that is LeBron James, and that is Steph Curry, and that is Shaq. And name the great players. They're generally 27 or older. And so we have this expectation, but the history of the NBA tells us that. And then Giannis did it at 26, and then Gilgis Alexander did it last year, I think, at 26. And so that number may just keep getting lower. It might like. You know what I mean? Like, Cause I've already had to lower it from 27. It's like, yeah, we gotta, kind of gotta wait until they're 27. You know, they become men. They've probably settled down. You know, they figured out, you know, they figured out the game, they've got a lot of reps and whatever, but, but it's interesting. If there is anybody that would be different, it certainly stands to reason that it would be him because he is. I, I think we throw around that he is unlike anything we've ever seen, but he's truly unlike anything in the history of the world. So why not him?

[Bill Simmons]

I was texting, don't ask. But I was texting about Caitlin Clark with a couple people yesterday. About.

[Joe House]

Well, I. Don't ask.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, it was, it was because it

[Chris Vernon]

was David Letterman house.

[Bill Simmons]

We were amazing.

[Joe House]

Of course it was. Of course it was.

[Bill Simmons]

No, but she, she had a, like, not a great first game, right? And, and I was, I was thinking in my head about comparing her to Wemby, where same kind of spotlight, same kind of being tested by everyone in the league over and over again. And in Caitlin's case, it doesn't seem like she's handled it 100% well. Like last year, it felt like the entire league was just coming at her, right? And really trying to test her and be physical with her and, and really seemed like almost like the other people on the other teams like genuinely disliked her. And she was in all these non sports conversations and you know, kept bringing, getting brought in as a political tool and it didn't seem like she was enjoying that part. It felt like to me, like I know nothing, but it felt like a little bit of her joy was gone. And some people, it's a lot when it's all getting thrown at you, right? And I look at Wemby and he's the opposite. Wemby's the like, bring it on. I've been training for this my whole life. You're going to be physical with me, I'm going to make you pay. And I think that's been the most impressive thing to me, that at age 22, he's wired the way he's wired where he's got so much fuck you in him already. But nobody resent, really hard to mess with him.

[Chris Vernon]

Nobody resents him though, that, that, that league resented Caitlin Clark. They resented the fact that that's all anybody wanted to talk about. But they're also right, like they've kind of been there, there, they've done that. They, they're, they're great players in their own right. You know, the Asia Wilsons of the world have been winning MVPs and championships and yet it's like all anybody wanted to talk about was Caitlyn Clark. And so it had this resent.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, there was enough you could chip away at it. Because the difference with Wemby, right, is if you play against him or you even go see him in person and I know we've all had the same experience. You're just like, holy.

[Tate Frazier]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Like this is like, like even three. You saw him in person, right. House. It's like three times crazier than I was expecting.

[Joe House]

I haven't seen him in person yet. But I, I just would say it's a luxury for Wemby. He's arrived in a very wellestablished league with a well established collective bargaining agreement and pay, you know, pay structures. I mean they, they brought him along how they could. The situation with the WNBA was radically different. And Caitlin Clark arrived vibes with a giant fan base. She dragged people over to that product because they were so enamored of her college performance. She was a one of one in college in terms of that shooting. And she reminded us of Steph Curry. Like, wow, we haven't seen anybody shoot like this before. And now I'm a fan of Steph. And she came over and all of a sudden there's eyeballs, lots of eyeballs on the WNBA for the first time and they're in the middle of a collective bargaining agreement that's about to expire and the entire pay scale needs to be reset and the TV deals need to be all reset. And she did bear the brunt of a lot of that because she was the one that generated the interest that propelled the whole thing upwards. The prices they're getting for expansion teams. She singularly, to my way of thinking, is responsible for the entirety of that. And she missed most of last season by being hurt. And so all she had to do

[Bill Simmons]

and the team did well without her, which is. Yeah, there's ways to pick at it. It's interesting though. Yeah. So we'll see with Wim.

[Chris Vernon]

She's way more famous too. Way more famous. Do you think your wives know who Victor Wim is?

[Bill Simmons]

I think this, the last couple months, I think it's been happening.

[Chris Vernon]

Do you think your wife knows who Victor W?

[Joe House]

She definitely does because she does. The TV is on. Basketball. It's not fair for me.

[Chris Vernon]

That's fair.

[Bill Simmons]

That's fair.

[Joe House]

I have a 15 year old too. He, he.

[Chris Vernon]

I just don't. I Just don't think she. But he's not famous like she is.

[Bill Simmons]

She was there. Was there any PCU that thought OKC was going to lose a game to the Lakers?

[Chris Vernon]

No. Not after, not after watching that stupid Houston series. I mean that was so abominable that you watched that and it was like. I mean tho. That's. It felt like two non playoff teams that we were forced to watch playing each other in the playoffs.

[Bill Simmons]

How that ended up being the worst matchup. But it was a four or five and I felt like they were the two worst teams.

[Chris Vernon]

Well, because they didn't have Luca and they didn't have Durant.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Chris Vernon]

I mean, I mean it was, it was. It was pretty rough to watch. And so. And again another team that can expose you like Oklahoma City and, and you know that like you have no chance unless your turnovers are low. That's your only chance against Oklahoma City is playing with low turnovers. And they're going to go out with a backcourt of Marcus Smart and Luke Canard. Yeah, I mean that's. That. That's a tough pill.

[Bill Simmons]

It's sad. I. It's going to be really interesting to see who's at that game tomorrow because it's clearly going to be a. It's a Monday night. It's not like OKC fans are taking it over. I think it's going to have. It's going to be definitely a weird energy game. Plus House the Laker fans lost their celebrity road title. The Knicks fans are just murdering them. This is a route. I think Boston might have better celebrity fans than the Lakers at this point.

[Joe House]

I love what you're doing, but it's not comparable. I mean this Knicks team has legit ambition to get to the Eastern Conference finals. It was always Eastern Conference finals or bust for Nick Knicks team. That's what they did last season. The energy entering the season was high that the Lakers were always a work in progress and, and you know Los Angeles as well as anybody now that you've been there for 25 years. It's a sea to be seen kind of place. Do you want to be seen?

[Bill Simmons]

They have real fans too though. I, I gotta. As much as I can't stay in the Lakers, I gotta get about the court sides.

[Joe House]

We're talking about the real fans.

[Bill Simmons]

They've never replaced the aura of J. Jack and I remember writing about this like 15 years ago. They'd never. Leo never really wanted it. Honestly. He. He kind of let down the fan base.

[Joe House]

Name's embraced it.

[Chris Vernon]

He wants it Chalamet at road games. Spike. Spike Lee and Chalamet at road games. That's a. That's a different level, right? Like we. To travel to the game. I know it's close travel, but still, to have your. To have your, you know, your celebrity fans in the opposing arena, that's something.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it.

[Joe House]

Guy in Los Angeles right now or gal that you could put courtside, that would capture the moment, and that would feel like, oh, this. This is taking it up a notch.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, I think you have to go music. So, like, Kendrick, I think they have to grab. Yeah, I think they'd have to grab Kendrick, ironically, the guy that handles his career. Anthony, huge Laker fan, obviously doesn't care about the Lakers. He won't put Kendrick at a game.

[Joe House]

Well, Anthony told me to. Yeah, Anthony told me to whip my dick out on the show today because he. He knew how excited I was.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, thank God you did not, Anthony. No, but maybe you have to do more musicians and not do the. Not do the actors as much.

[Chris Vernon]

Well, they still got Flea, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that's the thing. They haven't replenished. It's like a. It's like an aging contender that hasn't replenished their thing.

[Chris Vernon]

You know what I just thought of who. Where's my man Jimmy Goldstein?

[Bill Simmons]

He's still. He's going all these games. He can help.

[Chris Vernon]

See, they don't put him on camera anymore.

[Joe House]

Yeah, there's. There's a. There's a story there.

[Chris Vernon]

Oh, there is?

[Joe House]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

No, well, he used to.

[Chris Vernon]

He used to be. It used to show him at every game.

[Joe House]

It doesn't help what we're talking about. We want somebody that. That. That's 30 years old or. Or, you know, under the age of 40.

[Bill Simmons]

Last topic before we go. Detroit. Cleveland. I had Cleveland yesterday. I wagered on them, and they barely pulled it out. And they wouldn't have pulled it out if. If James Harden didn't turn back into James Harden for like three minutes, he sucked the whole game, and then for three minutes became James Harden again. Cleveland, I don't think has lost a home game right in the playoffs and.

[Chris Vernon]

Hold on. Timeout. 22nd.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

Would you have rather lost the bet and Harden missed all those shots or.

[Bill Simmons]

Cleveland.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Just for the hardened story. Now, I wanted to win the bet.

[Chris Vernon]

You wanted to win the bet.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I needed one after I. And plus, it's way funny, the Knicks have been profitable as well. House and I have been. We've been grabbing the Knicks lately.

[Chris Vernon]

Well, hell, you could have a.

[Bill Simmons]

Minus 30 the Knicks were minus like one and a half today. Like, who, who thought Philly was winning today? That. I thought that was crazy.

[Joe House]

Crazy.

[Bill Simmons]

But anyway, what do we think happens? What do we think happens in Cavs, Pistons here? Do you believe. Did the Cavs do anything to make you believe in them or. No?

[Chris Vernon]

No, I, I do not. I do not believe the Cavaliers are

[Tate Frazier]

going to beat the Pistons.

[Joe House]

I, I just, I, I have Detroit in five. I think they win game four and game five.

[Chris Vernon]

I do it.

[Bill Simmons]

So it's a weird one because I don't feel like Cleveland's playing the right line. Now, granted, I'm a guy on my couch in la, you know, and I'm not, not spending every minute with the team. But like, unless Sam Merrill's hurt, I don't understand why they're not playing him more. I don't understand why they only play one big instead of two. I don't understand why they play Wade when every time Wade's in, it feels like it's a disaster. I would have pulled Harden. I know Harden came through down the stretch. I wouldn't have played him in the last six minutes. Cause he's such a defensive liability. But I don't know, do you think? It just seems like Atkinson's going to go down with the ship with this. The two bigs, Harden, Mitchell and a shooter. And he's like, I guess this is win or lose. I don't know if I agree.

[Chris Vernon]

I also think that, you know, I know J.B. bickerstaff from his time in Memphis and I know he feels, he got, he feels like he got screwed there, like that he got blamed there. And he, and he coached Donovan Mitchell and he coached Evan Mobile and he coached Jared Allen and he coached James Harden when he was in Houston. He knows all those guys. So if there's anybody that knows how to make those guys look like a semblance of them, you know, or a shell of themselves, it would be him. A guy that has really. He's been, he knows what, you know, the way to defend those guys. He watched it every night. He coached all of those guys. And so I am unsurprised that he's got a good game plan against those guys to make them super uncomfortable. Also, they just don't have, I don't think they have the requisite toughness. I just don't like.

[Joe House]

They just know because he's an og,

[Bill Simmons]

they don't get stopped.

[Joe House]

Where's that Mobley at? Where's that Mobley at?

[Bill Simmons]

Also like how what they give up Wide open threes at the worst possible times to a team that's not even that good at shooting threes. Other than Robinson, Cade's the best guy in the series. Cleveland's going to be the most interesting off season team, I think if they. If Verna's right and they lose the next two. Did you say that or how State said.

[Chris Vernon]

No, no, I think I agree with him. I agree with him.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. So if that happens, I'm prepared for anything with Cleveland. And also like, you know, Mitchell at this point there, there's a small piece missing with him in these playoff games that Brunson seems to have, which is ironic because Mitchell was the guy the Knicks wanted all the time. And maybe this will be the Mitchell moment because this Detroit team is a bitch to play against. Right. They have all these dudes, they could throw at him and throw it hard in and. But I don't know, it's like I keep waiting for his moment and maybe it's just going to be one of those careers where it never happens, you know, or be on the next team or the next team. Maybe it'll be in Memphis. So we all think. We all think this ends in five. Yes.

[Joe House]

I mean, I know I do.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

All right. So that would be. That's +240 on. On FanDuel.

[Joe House]

Oh, okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, if you're interested.

[Chris Vernon]

Well, then they must be. Then they're obviously the underdog tomorrow night. So that's a. I mean, because they're going to be favored in five. Well, no matter. No matter what happens to.

[Bill Simmons]

They are the underdog dog plus three and a half tomorrow.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah, no matter.

[Joe House]

Let me have it.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah, no matter what happens tomorrow night, they're going to be favored in game five.

[Bill Simmons]

All right. We're going to go because San Antonio, Oklahoma can't. San Antonio, Minnesota, who do you guys think the great.

[Chris Vernon]

Who do you. Who would you take? I want to get you both on the record right now. I'll let you change in the next month and a half, but if you had the third pick and it was the ban, I'll give you the band house Vance of Peterson. And then the debate that I'm going to be having with everybody for the next six weeks is going to be Wilson or Boozer.

[Joe House]

Before you came on, I told Simmons and Tate that I think that. That Caleb is more of a Memphis kind of. Of player. The dynamic ability, the. He could be a three or a four. I think he fits. What I've come to understand is what your decision makers like. Like they like that flexibility. And if that kid can. Can play defense the way that Cedric Coward plays defense, that's pretty formidable.

[Chris Vernon]

I know. I heard you last week, Bill. You love Wilson and I do. There's no way you can watch these playoffs and not think, boy, he fits in these.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's funny. Cause when the way the. The way that draft fell, Memphis got three. And Boozer just seemed like such a clear Memphis guy, just cause, you know, competitive. I liked how he handled himself even when they fell apart and that when his brother screwed up the NCAA game and he was just like. Like, he. He didn't. He was the only one that didn't seem rattled by it. But I think the Wilson upside is. I just can't believe the tape with him.

[Chris Vernon]

I don't want to say he really

[Bill Simmons]

seems special, like, potentially.

[Chris Vernon]

I do. I do think, number one, the Memphis front office loves analytics. And they also, in this new era, I do think, are going to try to atone for the mistakes made with Morant. Right. They want to make it all about the team, not elevate a star above everybody else that then gets bigger than the operation and all. And I think that that led to a lot of the things that ended up, you know, the. The. The car went off the cliff and Boozer is like that. He is as safe as safe comes. There is zero percent chance he's gonna suck. There's a pretty good chance he's gonna be awesome. And there's 100% chance. Well, I don't want to say a hundred, but a 80% chance. You never hear, like, I don't even know if he's on social media or anything.

[Joe House]

A character. Not contro.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah. Nothing controversial. Nothing. He's not like. It's like the anti. It's like every.

[Bill Simmons]

Like in a romcom. He's like the. They're heading toward the wedding in the. In the beginning of the romcom. And he's like the perfect guy on paper. He's got everything. And yet that. Yeah, Caleb Wilson's over there. It's like the bartender. Like, whoa, look at that guy. And all of a sudden we have a love triangle. Caleb Wilson, if you. There's YouTube clips of him. You just watch 10 minutes of him and you're like, is this guy Sean Kempkross with the other.

[Chris Vernon]

I know.

[Bill Simmons]

And he's so electric. And I keep thinking of him and Caleb together. So you have that, but then you have Memphis grit and grind analytics. This guy is just like a guaranteed. So it's a really tough one, but it Might be Memphis's one chance to get like a super duper star. I don't think Kayla, I don't think Cam Boozer is going to be a super duper star. I think he'll be a star in like a couple all NBA second or third teams kind of got guy. But Caleb Wilson could be like, I don't know what he's going to be House. I'm. I'm literally prepared for anything.

[Joe House]

I agree. The two, two good choices though, Verno, I don't think it's.

[Chris Vernon]

Well, if you, if you threw him, him and Bozellas would have some crazy ass dunks in Chicago. They would, they would make the Bulls fun for the first time in forever.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, Tate made the key point. Like Caleb is a chip on the shoulder guy and if he, if he's fourth in a class of four. Oh, yeah, that's it. It's like boom going on there. The great thing is you can't lose and it's a position you needed. Oh, yeah, you traded Jaren Jackson, which, as you know, I supported that trade. We argued about Jaren Jackson a million times. I was never a Giant fan. I'm pretty sure you can replace his 5.7 rebounds a game. I don't know if you've figured out how to, how to put those together yet.

[Joe House]

Hold.

[Chris Vernon]

One of the guys we argued about was Mobley, by the way.

[Bill Simmons]

True. Maybe everybody, maybe everybody was a loser.

[Joe House]

We're all, we're all.

[Tate Frazier]

And.

[Chris Vernon]

And the other thing is this. We also got lucky because Sacramento ain't up there and Brooklyn ain't up there. And those are Morant homes. Those are possible, right? That if you don't hit the lot, if you just crapped on your fans again in and you missed out and you're not gonna get a new shiny toy to sell those sweets and season tickets. Right?

[Joe House]

You got.

[Bill Simmons]

You think Morant's gone, whatever happens. Yeah, that's your take.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah, but I mean, and, and maybe you push Morant and 16 in and now you're moving up again. You know what I mean? Like, I do think that. I do think that. Because it could have gone different if like Sacramento or Brooklyn ends up with the bansta or like say they went 12 in this or 13 in this. Maybe it's a little different world. But I do think that those are possible landing spots when the trade stuff comes around just because they're going to need something to sell. And he is fun as hell. He is fun. As long as he plays, he is fun.

[Bill Simmons]

Brooklyn could Be your outcome there. Last thing before we go OKC right now is minus 170 to win the title on FanDuel. San Antonio is plus 320. The Knicks are plus 750. 50. What's your favorite bet out of those three? Verno? So

[Chris Vernon]

I think I would say just odds wise. Knicks.

[Tate Frazier]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean +750 is like good odds.

[Joe House]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

Are. Is Anunobi going to be able to be 100% by the time we get to the NBA finals? And it almost feels like if he's not not then I don't like it. And honestly, like, look, Oklahoma City's obviously the. The. That's last on that. How about this? What is Detroit plus a billion.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, I mean, because they're not 18:1.

[Chris Vernon]

Oh, wow.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, again, Minnesota 150 to 1. Although that game is starting right now.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah, I think that. Yeah, I think.

[Bill Simmons]

I think probably Minnesota missed their game three. Was they. If they could have beaten San Antonio in game three with Wemby having a game like that, they just couldn't hit a shot. Michael McDaniels was like 5 for 22. Like nothing was going in. Randall was bad. All right, Verna, we can listen to you on the mismatch. I'm excited to hear where you finally where. So you've landed on Caleb. It's out.

[Chris Vernon]

No, no, I'm not. I'm not.

[Bill Simmons]

So you made us pick and then you didn't even do a lean.

[Joe House]

He needs to milk it. He's got six weeks.

[Chris Vernon]

If you put. If you put my head on a guillotine today, I tell you, they take but loser. But I want to watch this whole thing play out.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm a lean toward. I'm a lean toward Caleb Wilson for

[Chris Vernon]

you, but I may prefer Wilson by the time it all comes around.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I'm not going to change my mind.

[Chris Vernon]

It's going to be a fun six weeks.

[Bill Simmons]

And would you rather have House take the ban or would you rather have him move back a spot and flip picks with Utah and grab some stuff?

[Chris Vernon]

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Do not do this. No.

[Bill Simmons]

You.

[Chris Vernon]

The first time I heard about AJ bands that he was 13 and the guy told called me and said, I just saw the next one and I've had that.

[Joe House]

I'm telling you, there's people with the legend of Peterson. The legend of Peterson also is out there.

[Chris Vernon]

No, I mean they know that burnout the Bance is going to be a major, major star.

[Bill Simmons]

You cannot Sar in 22 games of Anthony Davis before he gets hurt. It's going to be amazing.

[Joe House]

No, he's on the trade block.

[Chris Vernon]

You guys see that thing going around about how the way to get the number one pick is to trade for Anthony Davis Three, three times.

[Bill Simmons]

What was the third time? It was Dallas did it.

[Chris Vernon]

Pelicans, right? Or no, no, no.

[Bill Simmons]

But they, they traded him, though.

[Chris Vernon]

Wait, wait, wait, wait.

[Bill Simmons]

Or they. They hadn't traded him yet.

[Chris Vernon]

You do trade him.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. You have to trade him. I think it's like it follows like the horrible movie. All right. Thanks to Verno, thanks to Joe House, technical difficulties.

[Joe House]

We made it work.

[Bill Simmons]

Thanks to our guy, Tay Frazier, thanks to Cahao and Eduardo as well. New rewatchables coming tomorrow. Tropic Thunder. Exciting stuff. Congrats to these two guys. The first and third picks in the NBA lottery. And we'll see you next Sunday night on netflix. Must be 21 plus on president select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 on President DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gaming problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER-1-800, my reset. Call 888-797-777 or visit ccpg.org Chattinconenetic or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-88-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York for Louisiana, call 877-770-7867.