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The Bill Simmons Podcast
UConn’s Miracle, Weirdest NBA Season Ever, A Scary Playoff Team Draft, and an Iffy Expansion Plan With Zach Lowe
01:45:22
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- [00:00]
A
This episode is brought to you by State Farm Upsets Buzzer beaters game changing plays what happens on the court keeps us on our toes and life isn't any different. That's where State Farm comes in. With over 19,000 neighborhood agents for when you want to talk to a real person and easy to use digital tools, State Farm is there to help when facing the unpredictable. Because in life's uncertain moments, big or small, you need to know someone is ready to assist. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Price and eligibility vary by state. It's the Bill Simmons Podcast, presented by the Ringer Podcast Network, where you can find Zach Lowe's podcast, the Zach Lowe Show, Tuesdays, Thursdays. You can also find the rewatchables where it is almost the end of CR mode. Zach, we have LA Confidential is going to be the last rewatchables we put up on Monday. This was a great basketball weekend. I know you're not a huge college hoops guy, but you are a Connecticut guy and we had one of the great comebacks of all time. So we're going to get in a whole bunch of NBA stuff, but we had an unbelievable UConn comeback and game winner against Duke. And I was thinking like when you have these, when you're down like basically 20 and you're heading into the second half and we see this scenario with NBA college all the time, it's basically the two part comeback followed by some sort of mini miracle is the way it goes down, right? You get, you go from 20 to like 11, then you're around between 9 and 11 for a while and then you make that one last run to get to within 2, 3. But then you still need, still need some help. And they got some help. So did you see the last play and did you feel like that was a great UConn play or a terrible Duke play?
- [02:18]
B
First of all, what a delight this is. This is two years in a row that Duke loses late in the tournament in just epic fashion. We can all agree, anybody but Duke and just, yes, truly an insane end to the game. I can't say that I saw a lot of it, but I saw the last 30 or 40 seconds of the game. You know, I, I guess Boozer got a little flack for what? Did he panic? Couldn't he have just held onto the ball and gotten fouled? That's like kind of an instinctual play, right? Like this. Like you think you're being smart by like, oh, we're going to run the clock. I'll just lob it up and. Crazy defl. I think it was a great play. The steel was great. The pass and pass back was great. Obviously the shot is an all time killer shot. And Dan Hurley, another round for your Yukon Huskies, baby.
- [03:00]
A
It was honestly a great, great, great coaching job. Sometimes I feel like college coaches almost get too much credit because they're the only constants at these schools and they're. The camera's always showing them. He was like, not get. They were down 19, 17, 19 15. And he was on the sidelines like it was a two point game. Just, just going crazy. He was doing this with the crowd heading into timeouts.
- [03:23]
B
Yeah, he's a psycho.
- [03:24]
A
Dan.
- [03:24]
B
Dan's a. Dan's a psycho.
- [03:25]
A
But he just basically wouldn't let them quit. But I felt like that, first of all, I don't know why every college team doesn't press. Like, if you have great athletes, I think you should at least know how to like trap press it to some form, right? So they get. They're basically down to they missed first free throw, get the second. And they're like, we can get the ball back. We practice this. We're ready. And they get poor Kaden Boozer in the middle of the court. And honestly, it was like one of those plays where five things had to happen perfectly at the same time. They send the two guys rushing at him, right? He's got two teammates wide open, 50ft away.
- [04:02]
B
You can see his thinking, there are two guys on me. All I gotta do is roll one pass. The game, the game's over.
- [04:09]
A
But the problem is that because UConn practices all the time, they know, oh, either he thinks we're gonna foul or not. If he starts to throw to the wide open guys, we're just jumping up like this. And they were like synchronized swimmers. The way they both went up at the same time, tipped it. But then the kid had to make a 38 foot shot. And it's not like he was red hot during the game either. So unbelievable. When I don't know if. Did you see the cbs? They had the camera on Grant Hill and Bill Raftery.
- [04:39]
B
I did not.
- [04:39]
A
And Bill Raftery almost dies. They cut to him. Don't joke about.
- [04:46]
B
Don't joke about that.
- [04:47]
A
No, you. I'm telling you, watch it. It happens. And he goes. He kind of like. It's like, like he saw like a demonic force enter his living room or something. Did onions feels devastated.
- [04:57]
B
Did onions come out at all? Did we get an onions.
- [04:59]
A
He couldn't speak.
- [05:00]
B
Okay.
- [05:01]
A
But this was a real, it was a really fun tournament from a talent standpoint. But the games, I don't think this weekend measured up. And then we got this awesome game. We're going to talk lottery in a second. We just watched OKC New York. There was a really interesting SGA MVP movement that happened over the last week since I saw you seven days ago on this podcast when he was minus, I think minus 1500 for MVP. By the time we got to this morning, he was minus 320. And everybody had kind of hopped in the Wemby MVP car and driven it around a little bit to see how it felt. And we've talked about. I already said he was the best player I saw in person all year. I see the case. I just think this sga, I think this is ridiculous. SGA should be the mvp. He proved it again today. Are we just bored? What's your take on this SGA vs. WEMBY thing?
- [05:55]
B
I don't think we're bored. I think the number one seed would probably have an outsized importance to, to a lot of voters. I think it's a little silly that, you know, if, if there's a tie in the spurs win the tiebreaker, we give it to Wembanyama. For if, if you weigh that reason that heavily, it's a little silly, but it's, I mean it is. They have what they're 23 and one in the last 24 games he's played. I mean it does mean something that they just never lose when he plays. Their net rating is approaching plus 20 per hundred possessions when he's on the floor. Their defense is approaching like ludicrous speed insane levels when he's on the floor. And he is an all encompassing force on one end of the floor all the time, every possession. And the offense is starting to come and he's starting to figure out where to get his touches, how to play with all these guards, how not to force things when it shouldn't, when there are easier ways for him to get buckets and like just suck the entire defense toward him in the lane. I don't, I don't think it's, I don't think I, I. With all four of these guys at the top. I think you have to sit with each of them because they're each doing such historic stuff. But you just come back to this is going to be. If they hold on. It's a wire to wire number one seed for the Thunder. It's another year in which a lot of the supporting cast is injured for good parts of the season. And it's a guard shooting 55% from the floor and being, and being a plus defensively. Like it's just, it's outrageous.
- [07:24]
A
It's a guard having as good of a regular season on a really, really good to great team as we've ever had in the league. Right. 55%.
- [07:34]
B
Think about what you just said.
- [07:35]
A
Over and over again.
- [07:36]
B
Think about what you just said.
- [07:37]
A
Yeah, it's, it's on par with Jordan Magic pick, an MVP season. So if the spurs were able to pass them and get the number one seed, I'm ready to have that conversation. I just don't think OKC is going to let it up. The big thing to me, I, I noticed this over the like maybe like four or five days ago, I, I started looking this up. The minutes thing with Wemby and just the history of the mvp. Right. So he would have. Right now, I don't think he's in the top hundred for total minutes played. I think he's at like, it's like 1600, 1650, something like that. And you go through the history of the award and I do think this matters.
- [08:15]
B
Of course it matters.
- [08:17]
A
Bill Walton in the 78 season when he got hurt and they kind of. I wrote about this in my book. It's the weirdest one. They don't, kind of don't know who to give it to. They give it to him anyway because Portland was the best team. He played 58 games and one MVP that year. And that's the least amount of games somebody's played. If you're talking about minutes per game, everybody's 33 and up, except for Giannis during the COVID season when he was 30.4 and he played 19, 17 minutes that year. There's just no precedent for somebody playing 29 minutes a game, playing about 67, 68 games and winning the MVP. And that's where we'd be with Wemby. He'd be around 65, 66, and he'd be 29 minutes a game on a minutes restriction for a lot of it. You could argue he's been the most impactful guy in the league for the last 10 weeks. But SJ has either been 12212 for the entire time and he's on the best team. So unless I say, unless San Antonio can pass him, I don't see the case.
- [09:15]
B
Yeah, I mean it, it's a boring argument to make and it feels like you're finding the right hair to split to swing an argument. But it does. It's like it's 350 more minutes that SGA has played than Wemby. And Luke is like 500 something more minutes.
- [09:30]
A
Right.
- [09:31]
B
350 minutes is like seven full NBA games. Even if you think Wemby's per minute value or contribution is a tick higher than Shay's and it's. It's actually hard to find any statistical evidence that that is true. But let's just say you believe that it's not 350 minutes. You know, difference worth of. Of impact. Like the, the extra minutes plus impact is. That's a big, that's a big number.
- [09:55]
A
And leaving even leaving a half for nine to ten minutes per half is you really have to have a good team at that point if you're going to be a 60 win team and your best guy is playing 30 minutes. But it also speaks to how, how good he's been. Listen, this season was a massive win for him.
- [10:11]
B
It's incredible. These four guys are all incredible.
- [10:13]
A
Yeah, this is just him being in the conversation and try and managing to drop the SGA odds when SGA didn't get hurt and never stopped being the number one seed and is having one of the great guard seasons of all time watching him today. He got 16 free throws today. They didn't, they didn't replay a couple of the calls. I don't know if that's an edict from the league.
- [10:33]
B
Like hey, oh stop, stop.
- [10:35]
A
Hey. No. I kid OKC fans. Most of them were the right call. But he gets to the line a lot and I think it is part of like winning back to back MVPs. I need to feel like the second season is at least mildly different than the first season. So he's been better offici he's better from an efficiency standpoint. Yes, I think he's been better at the end of the games. It feels like it's surprising when he doesn't come through in the last five minutes. Even the game today it's like, oh, here he goes. He's going to start scoring. But the big thing is there was a character reinvention in a fun way where they became more villainy, which I think kind of weirdly helps the case. Cause I always like to think of the MVP years like what happened that year? Like 30 years from now. What happened that year? Oh, what was that year? And this was like the, oh, it's the year SJ went back to back got better than he was the first year and got a little Villainy. And that's what I remember from that year. So I'm good with it.
- [11:39]
B
Is he really any different? Is any of this any different, though? Or is it just like. If you're saying they got villainy, what's different? It's the same.
- [11:48]
A
They didn't do anything different. I think we changed. They didn't change because they've been successful. And now I think they've entered that zone that sometimes players and teams can enter where you're like, ah, fuck these guys.
- [11:59]
B
I will say not to be the defend the refs guy or defend the Thunder guy or whatever, because I do think it's hilarious that Mike Brown has two technical fouls this year and they're both just losing his shit. The line of coaches, like, these coaches need a support group now with like, him and Chris Finch and all the coaches who have just lost it because of the Thunder. But there are even. Even in a game where he shoots 16 free throws and there's a couple where you're like, oh, boy, did he kick his leg out. That looks a little wonky. There are a couple of drives, like one Mitchell Robinson kind of met him at the rim and I kind of expected him to get a call, and he didn't get a call. He's just in the paint a lot. And it's worth at least noting that even as you maybe are getting enraged at the whistle that he seems to be getting, there are these stray plays here and they were like, oh, he didn't get that call and he fell over. Okay. It's interesting. He gets a good whistle. Let me be clear. He gets a good whistle.
- [12:50]
A
It's definitely favorable. So scout was on your podcast on Thursday and I was saying it concurrently. I hadn't heard yours talking about the too many guys theory with okc. It's one of my favorite theories. I remember arguing about this with Daryl Morey. I don't know how many years ago. You noticed it again today they put 11 guys. J Dub looked way better tonight. That was, I thought, the most athletic he's looked since he came back. How about that?
- [13:15]
B
How about the one where he streaked through the entire Knicks roster on a running back?
- [13:19]
A
Yeah. I'm going to be interested to see how this shakes out with them. You know, like A.J. mitchell, who I think is really good. I'm a huge fan. I think he's had a good season. The three point shots gone a little away from him, but he's just a really good scorer. I like when he has the ball. He had like four shots in 20 minutes tonight. Right. So they're going to have to figure out, like, how can we kind of wet the beaks of these other dudes. They also played 11 today, which in the playoffs are not. So I assumed on Thursday that Isaiah, Joe, he's probably losing minutes. And McCain, those would be the two guys you agree with that when they cut down to nine, those would be the two sufferers. Yeah.
- [13:57]
B
Even today, they're down to 10 and 11 minutes. The interesting one is Caruso, because you've been asking who's in the closing five for the Thunder, and I think tonight was yet another tell that Caruso is in the closing five. And so that, like, who is. Some of that's going to be Hardenstein coming out. Some of it may be Dort coming out here and there. And it's. It's like Kayson Wallace won't get as many reps in the closing five. But, like, the two guys who have indisputably, maybe three, if you want to include Case and Wallace, like, earned that level of. There's only five. But, like, the. The guys who qualify are, like, no brainer. These guys belong in a closing five. Or Wallace, Caruso and Mitchell have all elevated to that level. Like, I trust AJ Mitchell as a closing guy for the Thunder. And so it's just like it's. It's going to be matchups. It's going to be, you know, does this team have a little guard that we want as many guys as possible that can hunt him on when we have the ball? It's going to be really interesting.
- [14:53]
A
So. All right, let's play it out there. Who they're going to play around to? Denver, maybe Denver.
- [15:00]
B
Okay.
- [15:01]
A
Sga, J Dub and Chet are all out there, and I have two spots left. I'm guessing it's Caruso and then either Hartenstein or Wallace, depending on if I want to go bigger or smaller. And I don't think Dort's out there, which is a difference from last year.
- [15:19]
B
You've just benched Dort. You haven't mentioned Mitchell, and a lot of it. The Denver matchup is a peculiar one because you have the, you know, Jokic, who's the second best, best. Whatever. Whatever you think he is. And obviously, sort of. They famously used Caruso on him at the end of that series last year, but really only at the end of it. And other than that, the sort of textbook way you want to guard him is with Hartenstein and then have Chet on Aaron Gordon roving around or Chet on whoever roving Around. And so if you're double big, that's one other perimeter guy that you got. It is the definition of a first world problem.
- [15:56]
A
Yeah. So these are first world problems and great problems, but they're also things you have to figure out and extra decisions you have to make. As you know, you're down two one in a game four in somebody's building where you're down three two in a game six. And you have to make sure you nail this. And it's just last year I felt like it was a lot more cut and dry. Like when we were going to those finals games in Indiana, it was like, I know who's going to be out there for them. I'm not positive this time. All right. Scary playoff teams draft.
- [16:24]
B
Oh, okay.
- [16:25]
A
We're doing this right now. We're banging it out.
- [16:27]
B
I was not prepared for this, but I'm excited about it.
- [16:29]
A
No, we're winging it. I didn't even make a list. We're going team you don't want to see in a playoff series the most. And it could be any playoff series round. 1, 2, 3, 4, doesn't matter. Number one team you don't want to see.
- [16:42]
B
Isn't this just the best teams draft? Isn't this the same thing as the.
- [16:46]
A
It's not.
- [16:47]
B
Okay.
- [16:47]
A
It's not. It's a scary playoff teams draft. Here's the caveat. I'm getting the completely healthy version of each team. So I'm giving you the hypothetical Sixers. I'm giving you the Celtics with how good Tatum looked today. I'm giving you Charlotte with all their guys like. You name it. I'm giving you Detroit with Cade back. So we're take. We're removing, we're going hypothetical ceiling of each team. Who's the scariest playoff team too? Not the best. The scariest.
- [17:19]
B
What is scariest? Scariest? Like, I just. They're unpleasant to play against or are we talking upset potential? I mean, the scariest is Oklahoma City. Still, it's a boring answer, but that's your number one.
- [17:30]
A
I would have taken. I would have taken San Antonio first.
- [17:34]
B
Well, either one. That's fine. They're incredible. And Wemby certainly is very scary.
- [17:38]
A
Here's why I think it's San Antonio from a ceiling potential standpoint. I'm worried they have one more level in them. I know what OKC's level is. We know what it is. I don't know what it is with San Antonio. I almost don't have a ceiling for the house for them. And it might be what we're seeing now, but I keep thinking back to a couple times over history with these young teams that skyrocketed and also what's happened to them over the last two months. And that 91 Bulls analogy with them or the 86 rockets are like, they might just be ready now. And if they're getting the Wemby that we've seen the last 10 weeks, I think I'm the most scared of that. Because you put that in a playoff series with the energy of a playoff series and just what Wemby can do psychologically, combined with this okc, just trying to figure out who they are. As good as they are right now, I think I'd be the most scared. Like, if I'm the seventh seed, if I'm Phoenix, am I more bummed out that I'm playing San Antonio or okc?
- [18:42]
B
You're just happy to be there. What a. What a great season for the Phoenix Suns. I think you're probably. I think you want to. I don't know.
- [18:50]
A
It's a good question. This is why. This is a good question.
- [18:53]
B
But it's because it's. It's the experience factor, right? Like, can't you see Dylan Brooks in the locker room being like, these guys never been here before? Like, we can punk these guys and
- [19:01]
A
I'm gonna knock Wemby down.
- [19:02]
B
I'm gonna. I'm gonna get into Wemby. Watch. I'm gonna rattle him. He's gonna throw an elbow at me. Like, can't you just see that conversation unfolding?
- [19:10]
A
I could. That's what you would talk yourself into if you're playing essay. These guys haven't been here before. We can get to them. We can, but we can knock down Wemby. We can beat him up. No layups for him. Hit him every time he's trying to dunk.
- [19:25]
B
You know, I mean, I. I think the spurs can win the title. I am not super rattled by. By the. I mean, by the. All of NBA history essentially suggesting that you cannot just go in and win the title unless you're a completely remade team, like the 2008 Celtics or something like that. But we did the deep dive on here a few weeks back. To me, the combination of Fox and Wembanyama playing a full season, it's almost like a free agency coup, right? Wembanyama leveling up like this. Fox playing a full season, I think they can win the title. I'm not worried about the lack of experience at all, but it does cut against NBA History. And yeah, they're, they're absolutely terrifying to play against. And I think these are the top two picks no matter how you, how you slice it.
- [20:11]
A
So you go 1A, 1B. Yeah. Cause I mean I'm one of the ones who's who said I think you need to taste your own blood in the playoffs before you can win the title. So here's the thing. History says they're not going to win the title this year because it doesn't happen. History also said we weren't going to be able to have a 7 foot 7 guy who's this athletic and it's just a alien by the way.
- [20:32]
B
For what? Maybe you don't care. I'm not you. Maybe you, the aggregate you of basketball fans don't care. Like the dude showed up in like the gold medal game of the Olympics in his home country against Team USA and like wanted every bit of that game and that matchup and wanted every bit of Germany and Serbia and everyone else that they could have faced in the, in the Olympics. Those are, those are pretty pressure packed games.
- [20:55]
A
Yeah. One thing, this is what I've heard from people who've spent time around him. I don't, he's, he's atypical from the previous generation. He doesn't want to be buddies with a lot of these guys. He's not like oh cool, I can't, I can't wait to get to know Luka Doncic better. He wants to like destroy all these dudes. He's got a little bit of that Kobe MJ gene that I think could pay, could pay handy in the playoffs. Finals MVP FanDuel allows you to bet on this and the spurs odds like four days ago were like plus 550 to win the title and 6 to 1 for Wemby to win Finals MVP. That's not dropped. He's plus 550 for Finals MVP and Shay is plus 1 45. And that seems completely fair. You have the third pick in the scary draft. It's where it gets interesting.
- [21:43]
B
It does indeed get interesting.
- [21:46]
A
I bet we have the same team.
- [21:48]
B
I despite the fact that I just watched the Utah jazz score like 110 points in the pain against them the other night. I'm still picking Denver as the third scary team because I just know what those two dudes can do together. You and I. Also the same day on different podcasts unknowingly talked about, is there now a second team all NBA case for Jamal Murray with some of these guys falling by the wayside and him having a sensational season and yeah, their defense is getting shredded right now. I think it's part of, you know, everyone working their way back to conditioning back into chemistry, back. You know, Peyton Watson's just coming back. Aaron Gordon's been in now the lineup and on and on. Part like we're playing some teams we don't respect at all. Like we're, we know we're going to just win the game and part, you know, wake us up in the playoffs Now. I don't think there's like a top 10 defense hiding in inside the number 22 or 23 ranked defense or whatever they are in the NBA, but I think they're better than they've shown. They have won a championship recently and they have the best two man game in the league and so I'm still taking Denver. 3.
- [22:55]
A
Have you seen Gordon looks fine.
- [22:59]
B
He looks, yeah, he looks mostly like Aaron Gordon.
- [23:01]
A
He looks fine. Mostly. I feel like he's driving the car right now and he's driving like he's in fourth gear. Driving about like 55 in the MER Parkway. Hasn't really swung over into the fast lane yet. Just kind of cruising along. There's another gear for him. That's why I don't know what to do with their defense yet because we haven't seen him do the crazy Aaron Gordon stuff yet. I also had them third and I think the Celtics have to be fourth. Especially if you saw what Jayson Tatum did today, where he looked, he looked the most like Jayson Tatum that he's looked all season. Even kind of yelled at the crowd like he's getting a little swagger back where.
- [23:40]
B
I mean is there like a, a New England transplant community in Charlotte? It sounded like half the. I mean I know the Celtics are one of these teams. The fans travel, there's fans everywhere. But that was extremely loud in an arena. That has been like a very good home court arena for Charlotte in every other game I've seen. Even like the Knicks did not have that much of a presence in fan wise.
- [24:02]
A
The Knicks had some, Philly had a bunch yesterday and the Celtics had the most. But I. This seems to be like a recurring theme with these road games with the Celtics. I guess the bigger question is do. Does Boston just have the most transplants? Are they just. Are there just Boston, Boston, Cells of people planted in every city, it feels like because it happens in baseball too. It's been happening with the Red sox for around 20 years. The case for the Celtics, I mean Tatum just came in today with no Jaylen Brown or no Derrick White and just basically ran the offense and looked like the old Tatum again. They have all these bench guys that just seem to be interchangeably effective and they kind of have everything.
- [24:46]
B
You mentioned the bench guys. One of the notes I took during the game today was, I cannot believe that after losing all the guys the Celtics lost in the off season that they were able to put out a credible lineup in a, in a competitive game in the second half with Tatum at center. So all wings and guards on a night that Jaylen Brown and Derrick White did not play. And you're like, yeah, all these, like, I trust all these guys. Jordan Walsh. Yeah, sure. You know, Shireman, you're good. It's. It's just incredible how far all of these guys have come and makes you appreciate all the work that must have been going on behind the scenes with the player development coaches, because it's just like that would have been unthinkable before the season. And yet here they are and they blitz Charlotte. And I'll tell you, the plays that if I'm. If I were a Boston fan, the. What the Tatum plays that most heartened me were the two pick and rolls where he crossed up Kalkbrenner in a deep drop and just went full blast right at him and finished over and threw him like that was. Those are high level athletic plays. And he may not be all the way back yet, but I just continue to just be agape at how awesome he looks. I mean, the efficiency is starting to come now too, but just eye test. I can't believe how good he looks.
- [26:03]
A
Everything is back except for blocks and free throw attempts. From the stats from the last five years, the game today, he looked the furthest along. I was thinking about something I would love with the Celtics have really good reporters. I would love for somebody to ask Tatum this specifically. I think he's a better passer than he was. And I wonder when you sit and you watch basketball for, what was it, four and a half, five months, where you're just on the bench like a fan, which he's. These guys have been playing games NonStop since they're 6 years old. You go to college, you play, you're in the pros. He's playing all the time. I'd love to know, like, just sitting on the bench for that long and just watching, like, did anything about basketball change for him? Because I feel like things slowed down for him a little. And I think he's seeing passing angles that I don't remember him seeing in the same way. And I thought he was a good passer. Like, he averaged six assists last year. It sounded like he wasn't a good passer, but something slightly different. And I wonder if it's that.
- [27:05]
B
Well, these guys just keep getting better in different ways. Like, Jaylen Brown leveled up, and the more experience you have, the more you learn. But I do think there's probably something to not only watching it from that angle, but watching your teammates all thrive in elevated roles and say, okay, like, that, you know, maybe I. This pass that maybe I wouldn't have thrown. I can throw this summer, don't you think? And I mean this the complete opposite way from, like, engaging to your turn, my turn. Concerns. But don't you think these two games without Jalen Brown must be super, super good for Tatum just to, like, feel that the full breadth of his game. Like, all right, like, and one without Derrick White, too. Like, I can. I can. I can do this and sort of get in even more of a rhythm.
- [27:49]
A
Yeah. I mean, look, I think those guys are great. I don't think there's any sort of alpha dog, car keys stuff. Those guys have been playing. They want a title together. But I'm sure deep down there's for 3% of Tatum. Like, man, this team's running really good with Jaylen Brown. I wonder what it would be like if I was just in his spot for two games. And guess what? They didn't miss a beat with him in the same spot. So I do think that's part of it. I also think what you said, we're talking about watching the teammates. I do wonder if that's part of it, too, where you're just sitting on the bench watching these guys and you're noticing little things about them that you wouldn't notice if you're on the court with them in the same way. Right? Like, oh, Charman loves that spot, or just little stuff. But the way he's fit in so seamlessly, I think speaks to that he stayed with the team. And I think some of these guys would have just gone and worked off on their own and, you know, kind of popped in and out. He was with the team the whole time. We have to take a break. The scary playoff draft is about to get really fun because we have San Antonio okc. Oh, okc. San Antonio in Denver, Boston. And now it's going to get serious, but we're going to take a break first. This episode of the Bill Simmons podcast is presented by Sam's Club. It is that time of the year. When you just got to get in your car and go somewhere. I've done that plenty of times in my life. Nowhere gets you ready to go quite like Sam's club. Snacks, the gear, super low prices on gas. They got a bunch of stuff that keep you and the whole crew rolling. And here's what you gotta do. You gotta join the club of yes. End@samsclub.com Yes. And you must be 18 years or older to purchase membership. And membership is subject to qualifications. Visit samsclub.com yesend for details. This episode is brought to you by Excel. Speedia Family vacations are great. My favorite family vacation ever. I went to cover the 2012 Olympics in London and I brought my family. My son was five, my daughter was seven. And we were in London for three weeks and we went to Paris for another week and it was just awesome. Our kids were the right age to travel. That's my number one family vacation I've ever had. But we've had plenty of those trips where everyone's excited. But you hit the planning part. Suddenly it feels like there's too many moving pieces. You start talking yourself out of it. Can't find the right flight, can't find the right hotel. That's why Expedia is a total game changer. Flights, hotels, vacation rentals, cars, activities, everything's in one spot, which makes the whole process way easier. And the bundle and save feature is huge. The more you bundle, the more you can save because you can book what you need now, add more later, keep saving on the way. Book your flight today, attach your hotel tomorrow, and you're still good. So if you're thinking about your next family getaway, bundle, your flights, cars, hotels, vacation rentals and save savings vary. Members only. Book your next trip with Expedia today. All right. Scary. Playoff teams draft. I'm on the edge of my seat. This is one series only. San Antonio, okc, Denver, Boston. Off the board, who do you have? Zach Lowe.
- [30:56]
B
Well, I'll tell you who I don't have. First of all is the team that lost to the Raptors by 50 something points today.
- [31:03]
A
They were low on my list there
- [31:04]
B
through Orlando Magic will not be my selection. Holy smokes. That feels like that's, that's an oh, that's a. I mean, we were already at oh stage. Like the official oh was when Paolo had the, like. Yeah, we don't make adjustments coming out of halftime thing. And Jamal Moses, like. Well, the only adjustment Detroit made was to play really hard, losing to the Raptors by 50 something points. Is an official. Like everyone's on notice. So I'm not taking Orlando.
- [31:30]
A
They've lost seven of their last eight. The one loss was to the one win. Oh, the one win was to Sacramento. And there's a thing on NBA Reddit right now that's. It's called low light. This is the headline three hours ago. Arguably the worst stretch of basketball in NBA history. A compilation of all Orlando Magic possessions during Toronto's 31 to Nothing run. This is a four minute YouTube quip that you could easily find. Now that's a cry for help.
- [31:59]
B
No, I've been watching games all night and not engaging with. I haven't been on Twitter. I haven't like been following it. Is. Is that the biggest run? It's like something to zero run in the history of the NBA.
- [32:09]
A
Yes. They said as far back as they have ever measured play by play, but they don't know. It might have happened in like 1948. There's some years missing. Years. Anyway, who's your fifth pick?
- [32:22]
B
I will go. You know, against my better judgment, I will go with the Knicks as the, as the fifth pick in the draft.
- [32:32]
A
I still have them fifth.
- [32:33]
B
I still respect this core. Another loss to the Thunder tonight. You know, got blitzed by the Hornets the other night in Charlotte. So it's not, it's not trending great. We're back on like the cat seesaw where it's like cats, invisible cats being benched. Cat has taken three shots and then Cat has like 12 points in two minutes and everything's fine. And like I. It just blows my mind how often we ride the same roller coaster with him. I still think there is. When they click, they can reach a pretty goddamn high level. And they are top six on both ends of the course. And yet there are all these reasons where you're like, do I really trust them against the best, best, best teams? But I'm still taking the Knicks. And it's worth noting they don't hate the Celtics matchup that that is looming in the second round of the playoff.
- [33:27]
A
They shouldn't. That's a team they've had a lot of success against. They should not hate it. Lot of Knicks questions for me, but mainly why is this team always down 10 to 12 points against good teams? And they either rallying back or they don't. But why. Why is everything so hard with the Knicks?
- [33:44]
B
And they have, they have a. I. The starting lineup has just been okay and not, not as good as it should be given the high wattage. People that are in It. I just don't know what the right move is. They started, remember the State started the season with Hart coming off the bench and immediately concluded like, this guy's the heartbeat of our team. We can't function without him. The obvious one would be Bridges. I just don't think 70 something games into the season they have the wherewithal to do it and so. But yeah, and now they have Deuce McBride back. So they have a, they have a deep roster that they've got to figure out now too.
- [34:19]
A
Assuming he didn't get hurt today.
- [34:20]
B
That's true. That there was, that just, there's just door. Four Dort collisions every game where it's just like, okay, there's a, there's the door, the door pile over there.
- [34:31]
A
Yeah, he's really the, he's carrying the torch from Bruce Bowen, the old Ron Artest. There's just certain guys, these accidents seem to find them somehow. I had the lakers in the five spot, so I'm taking them here for one series if, if I know Smart and LeBron are healthy and I have to play Luka and I have to beat them four times in seven. And I am also looking at some of the foul stuff that happens with them that we don't need to belabor.
- [35:02]
B
You bring it up every time. You can't resist.
- [35:04]
A
Well, they're like five more free throw attempts a game I think for the last five years. And I just think they're really hard to play. Especially at the end of these games when it's a two point game with four minutes left, you just feel like they're going to win and they could have two guys on the court that are just complete zeros offensively and it doesn't seem to matter for them. And I would not want to see them in a playoff series. So I'm taking them fifth. Who do you have?
- [35:28]
B
So we're just to be clear, we're just doing like scary teams. We're not doing like if the bracket, the bracket breaks like this, just blah
- [35:35]
A
blah, just pure scariness.
- [35:37]
B
Then with apologies to Detroit and I guess Cleveland, I'm, I'm going Minnesota. And it's been a rocky month for Minnesota with Ant out of the lineup in the last few games. Every time you think Randall has like rediscovered his verve a little bit, even if it's like an 8 of 19 game. But he looks frisky and he's doing, he's doing something. He has a 2 of 13, you know, lays an egg like he did the other night against Detroit. Now no Jada McDaniels that game. No ants, whatever. But IO's been out the last couple games, too. That's a little problematic. I don't. I think he has a calf thing that. The. The. That's a scary word, the C word. Caf.
- [36:15]
A
Yeah, it's the new C word. That's a great point.
- [36:17]
B
Yeah. Yeah, it's the C word. We'll just call it the NBA C word.
- [36:20]
A
The NBA C word. I like it.
- [36:21]
B
Look, conference finals two years in a row. Scoff at it if you wish. IO's the perfect bench edition for them. And they have a guy. They have one guy who is just like you. You talk about Luka being terrifying in a playoff series. Absolutely. Luca is terrifying. Anthony Edwards can. Can reach his version of that terror alert level. So I'm. I'm. I'm sticking with my.
- [36:41]
A
I thought you were talking about Bones Highland.
- [36:42]
B
Well, Bones, wave. Wave to the bench, baby. Bones, Bones, Bones.
- [36:48]
A
Listen for a playoff series. These are the kind of guys that swing a playoff series when Bones Highland just says 30 in a game. Four.
- [36:55]
B
Absolutely.
- [36:55]
A
We've seen it. I like the Minnesota pick. I thought I was inspired. And you've been. You've inspired me as well. See, this game you were dubious of. You were like, oh, this is the best. Now you. Now you get it. Which is why this is where we're going for the next pick. This is the 8th pick. Recency bias. There's no way it'll continue for an entire playoff series. I don't care.
- [37:18]
B
Oh, no.
- [37:19]
A
I don't care.
- [37:20]
B
It's happening.
- [37:21]
A
Philadelphia.
- [37:21]
B
It's happening.
- [37:22]
A
Philadelphia is scary. That was unbelievable yesterday. Embiid was awesome in that game, including the winning block where they showed a replay. And both of his feet were like a foot off the floor. Paul George had a 26 and 13. This is against Charlotte. For the people who missed this, Maxey looked great. And I thought the team was really locked in, wanted the game. I thought they really intimidated Charlotte. And some of the stuff they did defensively, I was kind of shocked by. They were blitzing those little handoff things and those little pick and pop plays they do. They're picking up Lamelo at half court. They were really physical. I just thought. I thought it was like a playoff performance. Now, granted, Charlotte probably didn't see it coming. Charlotte played the Knicks Thursday. They had the Celtics today. It was the sandwich game. I was impressed. So for. I don't think they're the one. They. One of the eight best teams. But from ceiling scariness standpoint, they're number eight for me.
- [38:19]
B
Well, and we're talking one series, right? Like, we're not talking like can this team hold together for three playoff rounds or four, which they won't because I don't think we know that. And your, your caveat at the beginning was you get the fully healthy version of this team. So like that's the version that has existed for maybe 72 hours in the last calendar year. But yes, sure. I, I'm. I. It's, it's. Now is the time. It's just we've waited too long. Cleveland is my pick. The Cleveland Cavaliers. Jared Allen got back healthy. This is an extremely dynamic top four. Streuss is back. Tons of options for like the remainder of the minutes with all the guards that they have just. It just feels like it's been an eh season for the Cavs in a lot of different ways. They had to get off a garland. They have James Harden, who I know you don't trust in. Nor should we in a. In a Game 6 or Game 7 of a playoff series. Even Donovan Mitchell's in a slump right now. Jared Allen's coming off knee tendonitis. Evan Mobley is just. He's very good and he's not making the next leap to great that we're all sort of waiting for. Streuss has been out the whole year. I think this is a really good team.
- [39:28]
A
I.
- [39:29]
B
They're actually one of the more. I still don't really know what to make of them. I think it's been about 20 games with Harden. Their offense has been sensational, their defense has been crap. But the big four guys have barely played any minutes together. And if there's one thing that I'm really curious to watch for these last six, seven, eight games, half of which are just tankathons around the league. It's. It's that it's. I want to see those four guys. Mitchell, Harden, Mobley Allen. How does that look together? Because I think there's a really high ceiling here that it feels like the NBA Cognizanti is just sort of moved away from them. And in this like Boston hoopla, which is very well deserved with Tatum going back and all the stuff going on out west and what Cade. And is he going to come back healthy? Cleveland just kind of there to the side and I think we got to bring them back center stage a little bit sometimes.
- [40:22]
A
This is not your year. Starting. Starting to wonder if that's.
- [40:27]
B
Well, we've said that about Denver too. Right. Who was the third pick in the draft. Denver obviously has a player better than
- [40:33]
A
anyone they have tell you this, I was a Cavs fan, wouldn't be happy about the Clippers box scores lately and
- [40:43]
B
their net rating with Garland on the floor as well has been none of,
- [40:46]
A
none of what has happened with Darius Garland on the Clippers would make me happy if I was a Cavs fan.
- [40:51]
B
No, no.
- [40:51]
A
Because you just did the rarely seen old guy for a guy about to hit his prime who had kind of had a rocky couple years. But there were real reasons for it with injuries and you bailed cause you thought you had a chance to win the title. Now you're probably gonna be the fourth seed in the East. You just went 10th in our scary teams draft. Which.
- [41:09]
B
But. Which.
- [41:10]
A
And you gave up Garland, which as
- [41:11]
B
you noted, though fourth, if that's indeed where they end up and they have a very easy schedule, it's a great.
- [41:17]
A
Fourth is a great spot. Maybe that's part of this is they're delighted to be fourth.
- [41:20]
B
And you know who we haven't drafted yet in the scary teams draft.
- [41:24]
A
Well, you, you're not up yet.
- [41:25]
B
I know. Gonna take them or not?
- [41:29]
A
No, I have Detroit. Okay.
- [41:31]
B
That's what I'm, that's what I'm talking about. Like.
- [41:33]
A
Oh, I thought you were talking about another team. Yeah, it's Detroit. And I said this to Goldsberry Thursday. In a weird way, not having Cade for a couple weeks and seeing this new level for Jenkins maybe will help them in the playoffs. But I still wonder. I don't, I don't think they have holes that I just worry about with some of the teams that they're going to have to play. Like when they play the Celtics and the Celtics can throw those two big wings at them, Tatum and Brown and their wings are Tobias Harris and Robinson and Herter and Javante Green.
- [42:03]
B
Like Sar Thompson, Asar Thompson could be harassing somebody.
- [42:07]
A
Well, but he's probably going to have to guard one of the guards on the Celtics, right? Like white or. I don't see that's the part. I don't know. I just feel like there's a physicality with the two wings that they're going to have issues with a Sar Thompson now winning the Thompson brothers, who's having a better season Contest now he's like minus 200.
- [42:26]
B
Hard disagree I think I, I listen to you.
- [42:29]
A
Hard disagree.
- [42:30]
B
I listen to you and Kirk on Amen Thompson.
- [42:33]
A
I this is Thompson. Apologies.
- [42:36]
B
No, I like in, in what? In what? I, I, I don't know if, if people's Expectations for him just got out of control. You guys were talking like he's having a, like he's trending down. Kirk said he's trending the wrong way.
- [42:51]
A
Maybe nobody, nobody guards him anymore, but
- [42:54]
B
no one guarded him ever. He's, he's.
- [42:56]
A
I thought he was going to get better at it though.
- [42:57]
B
He's 23 years old. He's averaging 18, 8 rebounds, 5 assists a game after averaging 14. 8 rebounds, 4 assists a game. Yes, he's shooting a little bit worse this year. 56% on twos, down from 60% on twos. Free throws are, by the way, quietly. And this is the most encouraging part. He's shooting 78% from the line, which, which. But I, I just. To me he's more or less kind of what I expected him to be this year. I did not think that he was going to be like, oh, now suddenly it's. He's going to be a point guard and he's going to be a 20 and point 8 assist guy. That's not who he is. And in fact, look, they're just the weirdest team in the league.
- [43:37]
A
Which one would you rather have Amen over over Asar?
- [43:42]
B
Yeah, I mean they're both awesome. I would love to have either one of them on my team. I think he has a little bit more offensive creativity to him now. He's been able to show that more than Asar has. But I am curious to see now that. I mean the Houston is the weirdest team. They are unwatchable one night, not been drafted yet. Interesting. No, and I don't think they're going to be next. But I am interested to see more of this. Okay. We've now committed to starting Reed shepherd in part because Tar Eason hasn't made a shot in three months and he's left us no choice but to start Reed Shepherd. But now we've starting Reed shepherd. That puts Amen Thompson, I think it to a. A more natural role for this stage of his career. And I'm interested to see just sort of how that looks.
- [44:23]
A
I took Detroit. So now here are the teams that. Well, there's one, two. We'll go faster. I can't wait to see who's last. Who do you have next? I just took Detroit.
- [44:33]
B
Where do. Where do we're cutting off at the 10 teams in each conference that are in. That's. We're doing all 20.
- [44:38]
A
Yeah, sure. Well, we can go fast. I'm more interested to see who goes last.
- [44:45]
B
Of course you are. So we can't pick the hypothetical Bucks with Giannis is like, yeah, they're only 10 games out.
- [44:50]
A
They're out. They're out.
- [44:53]
B
All right, you picked a Detroit, so
- [44:55]
A
that leaves you have Charlotte, Atlanta, the Clippers, Orlando, and Houston and Toronto are all left.
- [45:00]
B
Charlotte, no question. I think this is actually. I want to say it's too low for Charlotte, but I don't know who I would. Who I would remove.
- [45:06]
A
You know, tough weekend for Charlotte.
- [45:09]
B
Interesting moment, actually, for Charlotte, because it's been nothing but, you know, flowers and candy for three months and. And three months is not a short amount of time. They've been, like, number one or number two in net rating for a long half the season now, and they have been looking at this stretch of their schedule as, okay, let's see what this looks like. And they started off with just raucous home win over the Knicks. That feels like, all right, we've arrived. Everyone's watching this game. This is the kickoff of a brutal end of our schedule, and we just, like, aced the test. Philly comes in. That's a, you know, a win. I think Charlotte should expect to win that game based on how these teams have played. And Philly sneaks it out in the end, and it's like, oh, they got Charlotte.
- [45:52]
A
Charlotte blew the game, too.
- [45:53]
B
Well, but it's like they're in the
- [45:54]
A
bonus with, like, seven minutes left. And I don't know, that game made me a little nervous because the crowd got nervous and their offense fell apart, and everybody all of a sudden looked like they'd never been in a big game before. And it made you go, oh, yeah. That's why we don't decide this stuff with net rating. You actually have to use your savvy in games like this. And they didn't really have it yet today.
- [46:17]
B
Back to back, fine. Boston was rested. They were in Charlotte last night back to back off a tough game, but no Derrick White, no Jalen Brown, and kind of got outclassed and a little frazzled offensively. Now, I still think they're an extremely dynamic and very dangerous team, but this is. They play the Knicks, I think, on Tuesday or Wednesday. This is an interesting little moment for them, like at Madison Square Garden, coming off these two losses, you know, and real stuff at stake, like, you want to get to eighth. At the very least, you want to get to eighth to get into the top half of the play in game. Like, I'm very interested to see how they respond, but the track record of the last three months is, holy crap. So I'm very Happily taking them.
- [46:59]
A
Here they were before the game yesterday, they were number one in net rating for 40 games. 40 games is half the season. Every sort of net rating thing. They were number one, number two, number three. If you did 25 games, 20, 30. The last two games were not great though. And I do think they have a flaw. Other than the lack of experience. They don't have anyone on their team who can guard those Maxi Mitchell types. And you could say, oh, well, nobody has a guy like that. Well, then there's also Brunson. You go on down the line and it's just those guys kind of can do whatever they want against Charlotte. So that's one thing. And then, you know, they, they looked a little small against Embiid. A lot of teams do. But physically I thought they had Grant Williams on him in the fourth quarter, kind of. Cause they didn't really have any other options. Right. So that didn't bother me. They're a year. They're a year away, I think is my point. But I do think if I had to pick who could go further in a play in the playoffs, Charlotte or Philly, I would take Charlotte. Who'd I be more scared of for one series? Philly. Forgive me. Hypothetical healthy.
- [48:05]
B
The hypothetical Sixers. I get it. Embiid is. Embiid just walks into 30 points.
- [48:13]
A
And that 20 footer thing he does, it's just automatic. I mean, it's where it's like you're surprised he misses two, two, two and then all of a sudden he's shooting. And it just works every time.
- [48:24]
B
But it's a good point about Maxi, because I watching, I was, you know, tracking who they assigned to Maxi and it was Knipple at the start of each half. And like, you know, we all love carpool Kahn, as Van calls him. But that's a tough matchup for him. And it, but it's, it like it feels like it should be Brandon Miller, but Brandon Miller often needs to guard somebody bigger or is not quite ready for yet. Then it's like, all right, Sion James, we gotta play you more. That's probably bad for our offense, but can you come on Josh Green? Like it's, it's a tough matchup. And then Embiid bullying them like you said, you know, that's how the brawl started. Jalen Duran was just like, oh, Musa Diabate, you're an awesome story. We love the Antlers guest on the podcast, all that. But like, how about I just beat the shit out of you because I'm like much much bigger.
- [49:09]
A
£50. Yeah, Khan was. I think. Well, Khan and LaMelo together were 10 for 40 yesterday. They're not winning many games with that. No, but part of it was. Cause Khan had to chase around Maxi for a whole bunch of it. See, I'm making excuses. All right, we'll go quickly. I'll take Atlanta next. So let's. Let's go rapid fire here and see who's last.
- [49:33]
B
Houston.
- [49:35]
A
I'll go. Clippers.
- [49:37]
B
I thought about it. Now we're. Now I'm. Now it's.
- [49:41]
A
Now it's getting grim.
- [49:42]
B
Now it's grim for me. So I can't theoretically make Jimmy Butler healthy, right? Like that doesn't. That doesn't count.
- [49:49]
A
No, he's okay. That would be bending the rules.
- [49:54]
B
Miami.
- [49:55]
A
Okay, I'll take Toronto.
- [49:58]
B
So we're left. Oh, God. Okay. All right, You know what? I'm going to happily take the warriors because I get. I'm theoretically healthy, Steph. And healthy. Porzingis. Let me see it. Let's go. I'll go to war with those guys. I'll go.
- [50:14]
A
I'll take.
- [50:14]
B
I'll take them.
- [50:16]
A
I'll take Phoenix then.
- [50:17]
B
Oh, I forgot about Phoenix.
- [50:21]
A
Well, you can have Phoenix. I'll take Golden State.
- [50:23]
B
No, I'm taking Golden State. Come on, just. Even for.
- [50:25]
A
Just.
- [50:26]
B
Even for just nostalgia. I'm taking Golden State.
- [50:28]
A
So Portland's last.
- [50:29]
B
No, we've. You forgot.
- [50:31]
A
We have.
- [50:31]
B
There's two teams left.
- [50:33]
A
Who else is.
- [50:34]
B
Someone else is so last that you forgot that they're even in the draft.
- [50:37]
A
Who was it?
- [50:38]
B
Orlando.
- [50:40]
A
Oh, yeah, I skipped over them. Yeah, they're. They're last after an after three.
- [50:44]
B
That means they're last. I think they lose.
- [50:46]
A
Yeah, they lose. Orlando loses. If you.
- [50:48]
B
If we do this draft on the day, you give up a 310 run, you come last, you lose, you lose.
- [50:55]
A
There's no. Every year a coach gets fired with like two weeks to go. That's not going to happen in Orlando, is it?
- [51:01]
B
I don't think so. It's actually a conversation I've had with a few people and coaching agents around the league is, you know, we're a year removed from the Adelman, Taylor, Jenkins double. What the hell just happened? And is that. Are we going to see any of that this year? But that certainly feels like a scorching seat right now.
- [51:21]
A
Couple other quick things that. So if we don't get Curry, and we're close to knowing whether we're going to get Curry or not, Curry's basically said if he doesn't Get a couple ramp up games. TM. LeBron James. If you did. Who is the key? Who started ramp up?
- [51:39]
B
Embiid is ramping up all the time.
- [51:41]
A
TMMB. The 910 playing game in the west with no Curry. Do we even televise it? Should it just be terrestrial radio? What do we do with that game?
- [51:53]
B
Tape delay. We go back to tape delay.
- [51:54]
A
Portland, Golden State. Do we. Do we do maybe an AI broadcast with just AI characters.
- [52:00]
B
I can't believe you're saying this about a Scoot Henderson team. Of all people. You should be. This is Scoot. This is Scoot's showing some now Every. Every third game.
- [52:10]
A
Don't do this to me. I. I can't. I can't.
- [52:13]
B
He's showing some signs. That's all I'm saying. But then. Then there'll be every third game. It's like he had how many turnovers? But I. I'm still. I wouldn't. You gotta hold until the end.
- [52:25]
A
Miami today was so bad. Losing to Indiana, a team that was the first tanking team that actually had people making like Shawshank Warden, people telling the Indiana warden, telling Jay Huff he has to miss the two free throws kind of jokes. And Indiana just killed Miami today. Indiana definitely doesn't want to win anymore. Ever. And Miami lost to them by 15. And.
- [52:51]
B
And they beat the. The Pacers beat Orlando last week too.
- [52:55]
A
Miami seems happy to be the 10 seed. And I wonder if it's intentional. Cause it's actually a better draft pick. And they probably feel like, what do we care? We'll get to the plan. We could beat any of these teams anyway, so let's just mess around. That's the only other explanation other than they're terrible. So I'll give you those two choices. Like we don't really care where we are or we're just. We haven't been good this whole time.
- [53:18]
B
I think it's more closer to just, we're a pretty mediocre team. Okay.
- [53:24]
A
This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Those superior moments in the game, like dropping a buzzer beater at the last second, are worth it. It feels so good. And have you noticed all the smoothest plays are served ice cold? Just like Michelob Ultra. That's why Michelob Ultra. It's one of the reasons it's the official beer partner of the NBA. Or maybe it's because it's a superior light beer with a smooth, refreshing taste and only 95 calories. Or maybe it's because they're giving fans a chance to win amazing prizes, including courtside seat tickets. Michelob Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Enter now at michelobulture.com courtside Michelob Ultra Courtside 2526 no purchase necessary open to U.S. residence 21/plus begins on October 1, 2025 ends on June 30, 2026 multiple entry periods. See official rules@mcglobaltra.com courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and prizes and details. This episode is brought to you by Venmo. Supporting your team never gets old, but here's something new. You can now pay for your game day wings and rep your team at the same time. How? By getting your college colors on your card. Score more with the college branded Venmo debit card. Get up to 5% cash back with Venmo Stash. Sign up@venmo.com CollegeCard the Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank NA Select Schools available Venmo Stash Bundle terms and exclusions apply at Venmo Me stash terms max $100 cash back per month for
- [54:59]
C
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- [56:01]
A
March Madness Stuff really quick. I asked you to look up. Oh yeah, so the lottery. You're not a lottery guy, but I I asked you to go look at some clips because we have two different things happening with the NBA draft. We have the top four which everybody's now going to argue about. All four guys are now out of the NCAA tournament. Debance Darren Peterson, Cam Boozer, Caleb Wilson I am.
- [56:30]
B
I do have to say I am going to miss dad Carlos Boozer dropping F bombs in the stands.
- [56:35]
A
That was a good in the St. John's crowd.
- [56:37]
B
Yeah, that was a good time.
- [56:38]
A
So we have those four and that's going to be a great argument in itself of just who and a lot of it's going to determine on who gets the top four picks. All that stuff 5, 6, 7 has now turned into its own awesome argument and it's Burry's from Arizona who I absolutely love and I think is my favorite. I don't think he's going to be the best part in this draft, but I think he's my favorite. Wagler on Illinois who's been just incredible and has dragged him to the final four and Acuff on Arkansas and they're going to go 5, 6, 7 in some order and some of it's going to depend on who has those picks because if you have a point guard maybe you take Burrys but I just asked you to look at their YouTube clips really quickly and give me your Malcolm Gladwell blink test of what you saw. So we'll do. Let's do Burry's first. What'd you say?
- [57:26]
B
I really enjoyed just getting giving myself just enough knowledge to be dangerous to have strong opinions.
- [57:33]
A
That's what I was hoping for.
- [57:34]
B
Based on Burry's I I may have liked the best of the three. Super physical like play plays bigger than his height and his size plays defense. Um jumper looked like the release was a little slow at times but when he needed to speed it up he sped it up. From what I saw active off the ball like all these guys you need to be a good off ball player too. And I think Acuff is too like you need to learn how to play off the ball as a secondary ball handler and there's like a lot of back cuts and coming off pin downs in the buries in the Burry's tape but I he. He plays. I think he was listed as 6 4. Acuff is listed as 6 3. He plays bigger than 64 and just the physicality was. Was kind of interesting to me.
- [58:21]
A
He's definitely a little bookerish when you I don't like in he was he won the state title in California last year and was an awesome offensive player in high school. Arizona has a million guys so they don't need the offense same way. So there's some Steph Castle potential with him where there's more there. We're just not seeing it because he's trying to win a title. The defense, rebounding, hustle stuff, competitive stuff. I Just have zero doubts. Give me all the stock. I'll take all of it. And I think when you see a team, I think he could potentially go four if it was a team that didn't need a forward and was like, you know, what we really need is a two guard. Cause he's like, perfect two guard. So we're aligned. He's my favorite. Would you. I have a specific thing for Wagler, but what did you think when you saw him?
- [59:09]
B
Weird. Weird player. And actually watched a little bit of their elite a game too, because their team, Croatia, their team Yugoslavia, like, they've just. It's like a whole Yugoslavian team that has. Is. Is migrated there.
- [59:23]
A
He's.
- [59:24]
B
He's a very weird player. He moves, and I don't mean that in a bad way. He just has weird movement patterns, like a. Like a lot of step backs, a lot of spin moves. He's obviously the tallest of the three, and he leverages that for all it's worth. I think he's only. Only hit, like, 47, 48% on twos, which is a little discouraging. But the guy can really shoot and he can pass. He's just. He's the weirdest of the three. And the one that I was like, I need to actually watch even more on this guy because he's a little. He's a little strange, but clearly there's something there.
- [59:53]
A
To me, there's a lot of A.J. mitchell, but the ceiling would be higher. But same kind of, like, very unconventional, weird, herky jerky game like Brunson. They obviously have different bodies, but he just kind of knows how to play basketball and how to get shots that he wants to get and doesn't really seem to care how many tall guys are around him, what the angles are. There's a competitiveness with him that I think the tournament sometimes we can overreact to, but I think it matters that he was the best guy in this team that was an 11 seed that dragged him there. I also like that he's an overachiever. He Wasn't a top 100 recruit. Had. He wasn't, like, in the Aspen top hundred. So he's been like a late bloomer. And I like that those guys have the chip on their shoulder. I have Acuff ahead of him, but I think it's. I think it's. It's 50. 50.
- [60:46]
B
I'd like. I'd like to watch more because I did find myself thinking As I watched 11 minutes on YouTube, to be clear to you.
- [60:52]
A
Yeah, there we go. It's with the blink test scouting, I
- [60:56]
B
did find myself thinking, how does this translate to a league where everybody's a little taller than, than the guys that he's facing now and his height is a little bit less of a superpower at the guard spot?
- [61:07]
A
Well, that's what I think about with Cam Boozer because I watched a lot of Duke the last five weeks. His big go to move is he basically he bullies you and he does these little spin moves and ends up with the same either jump hook or little turnaround. And his goal is always to get as close to the basket as possible, which you can do in high school and you can even do in college. And I don't know if you can do it in the pros in the same way as comfortably. And what he never really seemed to shoot was that little 12 to 13 footer that coaped on Arizona has. Coapeat is basically kind of Boozerish. I'm sure somebody at some point will roll out a take of. Coape's actually going to be better than Cam Boozer and here are the five reasons why. But he has this really nice foul line jumper that he's always setting up and Boozer's always. And that, that's the kind of stuff you just don't know until you get to the NBA and all of a sudden you know, Jar Jaron Duran's waiting for you.
- [62:05]
B
I. I will.
- [62:06]
A
Jaylen Duran. I don't know why I called him Jared.
- [62:08]
B
I will say,
- [62:11]
A
what do you have for Acuff, by the way?
- [62:12]
B
Well, hold on. I want to talk about Cam Boozer for a second. I'm just looking at the box score from.
- [62:19]
A
So again I put some stats.
- [62:20]
B
Every game I want to watch, I want to sit down and watch more because I have very limited information.
- [62:25]
A
You're going to have to this year because this is a like a once in a decade top nine.
- [62:30]
B
I so this is the only Cam Boozer experience I have was Friday night 5th grade play at my daughter's elementary school. We have some people over afterwards. Everyone wants to have the duke game. Duke, St. John's obviously we're in St. John's country. St. John's is America's team. Anyone playing Duke is America's team. St. John's is winning. We throw it on. So it's on in the background. We're talking, they're socializing. I can't say I'm watching it carefully, but when I looked up I was like, okay, like I'm. I'm a little underwhelmed Like I was excited for my first like a big game. Look at Cam Boozer and he put up numbers and it was like good. But I, I expected him to pop a, a little bit more than he did in that game.
- [63:11]
A
That's not what he does. He's. I'm trying to.
- [63:14]
B
He's a basketball player though, right? He's just like a good, he's a good basketball player.
- [63:16]
A
Really smart, he's in the right spots, he's cool as a cucumber and he gets his stats. But the Caleb Wilson you'll. Somebody will cut an 11 minute Caleb Wilson tape and you're going to be like, is this guy Giannis? Like that's the difference between those two. So. Oh, go Acuff. Really quick.
- [63:36]
B
Smooth as silk. Like just so smooth. If he were 2 or 3 inches taller, would he be in the conversation to be the number one pick in the draft? Because he's just the chain, the change of pace, the hesitation, the variety of finishes, the self, the control, the mid range game, the passing vision. Like so smooth. Not like a blow away north south athlete, but kind of like I was going to kind of Shay like in the way that he just knows how to get a little bit of separation one way or another. Not, not as blow away as an athlete is Shay not as big as Shay, but just so smooth, so under control. I can see why everybody loves him so much.
- [64:15]
A
A lot of Kyrie, just a little Chris Paul in there, like game manager general stuff. It's just his ball. His teammates get a rebound, they just, he's. It's one of those, we'll see with the size that people are worried about the defense with him and like I don't know how many point guards have we had that were awesome, where they weren't good defensively and it was fine. I'm not a, I'm not as worried about the defense's other stuff. Okay, I want to talk about expansion really quick because I have a bunch of intel layout I'm laying out. Well, I'm interested in your take on some of this stuff. I think this is a fascinating sports story because of how the league has handled this, what the reality of it is versus what they presented to the fans and to the media. They've made it seem like, what's your take as you've read all this stuff? What is your take on will expansion happen? All that like just knowing nothing or knowing what you've read and that's it?
- [65:15]
B
I mean, all right, if I, if I excised all the private conversations I've had, I would say, like, it seems like it's on the path to happening that Adam Soper has basically announced, like barring some unforeseen circumstances, we're having a Vegas team and a Seattle team, right?
- [65:33]
A
So if you live in Seattle and you read and consumed all this stuff the last week or so, you're like, this is amazing. We're getting the Sonics back. Here we go. That's not what's happening. And I think it's really weird how the league is handling this because there's two things going on. One is they don't have the votes. And two, this is a two part process where part one is you get the 30 owners together and they off the vote and you 23 votes to to proceed. And basically Silver is going, I want to see what we can get for these two teams. We've decided it's going to be Seattle and Vegas. We haven't decided if we're expanding yet, but let's see what kind of price we can get for each of those and then I'll bring that back to you and we can vote on it. So the analogy would be you live on a block and two people sold their houses on your block and you're going, huh, those went a little higher than I thought. Should we sell our house? And your family goes, we don't want to move. What do we want to sell our house for? It's like, well, I'm just going to ask a realtor what they think we could get. And the realtor goes, all right, I'll ask around and see what it's worth. That's basically what Silver's doing. That's not how it was presented. And what's really interesting, not only did they not have the votes, but I think it got a little testy in the board of governors when they were all together last week with some people are like, why are we doing this? I'm never voting for this. This is stupid. We're not doing this. And I think what's happening, really, if you want to dig deeper, is there's this new generation of owners, a little like what we had 20 years ago with Cuban and Wick Grossbeck, like the younger guys that were coming in and they just kind of thought about the league differently. I think that's happening again. So you have Chisholm who just got the Celtics. You have Ryan Smith who just got Utah. You have Fertitta in Houston who's been there for a while, but I still think he's closer to the newer generation than the old one. You have the Charlotte guys that just got the team. You have ISHB in Phoenix and you have a Rod and Laurie in Minnesota. All of those guys intend on owning their teams for a while, right? They bought in. They want to win a title. They want to compete. If you're doing this, you're bringing two more franchises into the league. Now I have a 1 in 32 chance of winning the title, not 1 in 30, right? So now I just have two more people I have to compete against. That's one thing. I'm giving up 2/32 of my media share. I go from 1/30 to 1/32
- [68:07]
B
and
- [68:07]
A
I don't really see the point of why I'm doing that. These guys are all rich for a reason. Why would I do this? Seems to be the prevailing theme now. I'm talking about Dolan, who's been against this from the get go. How about the guy who just bought Portland? Dundon. Right. Why would he want a Seattle expansion team two hours away? He's not voting for this. How about rich competitive dudes like Ballmer? What does Ballmer want more teams in the league for? What does he care about $500 million? You know, oh, every. If we sell for 8 billion each, everyone gets a check for 500 million. I have more on that in a second too. What does he care? He just wants to win the title. You're making his odds worse. You're taking his media money away. And then there's wild card Joe Size, another one. He doesn't need money. Walter just bought the Lakers. I have no idea what Vivek's doing ever. And Dumont on Dallas, who knows? So I just listed that's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 owners that either I know they're against it or probably not. So that's one thing. The other thing is in the hypothetical fairy tale world where they could get 8 billion a team, do you know how fucking hard that is to get $8 billion? Where you'd have to write an $8 billion check for a team? And people point to the lakers went for 10 billion. They didn't really go for 10 billion. It was like 4, 7. Because the guy already owned a big chunk of the team. He definitely got outside investor money to help him out with it. I don't know if he had to pay for it all at once. Same thing for Chisholm. He was able to get the Matteo family from India to throw In a billion dollars. They inherited all this debt. He basically scraped it together. Minnesota, it took them four years just to pay what, 1.7 billion, something like that. Utah paid 1.4. I don't think they have any chance of getting $8 billion. The more people I talk to and the more people I look at it and I think Adam is floating it out like that's the number who's paying that and why would you pay $8 billion for a team in Seattle? So, A, I don't think they have the money. I don't think they have the money lined up. I don't think there are groups out there. B, I don't think the owners are going to necessarily vote for it. Even if they do get 8 billion a team and if it's like 5 to 6, they're definitely not voting for it. And I don't really understand the point of any of this. Why not just be transparent and say, hey, we're just curious to see what we get for these expansion teams. This doesn't mean we're going to have expansion. Instead, you've completely led this poor Seattle people on who now think they're getting a team. And I don't know if that's true. So that's my rant.
- [70:45]
B
I think that's all fair and certainly 8 to 10 billion dollars. You have a very narrow universe of potential buyers. Assuming you don't. I mean, you don't want a 20 person group coming in because that's proven problematic in other places having so many minority owners.
- [71:04]
A
Right.
- [71:06]
B
It's a, it's a very small universe of people. And yeah, I mean, Adam at one point in the press conference last week was careful to say, you know, we didn't approve expansion today, we approved the exploration of expansion. But it does, I mean, they've, they've, they, they 28, 29 kind of came out. I don't remember the exact origin of like who said that first and when that came out, but it certainly was not like rebutted by the league office. When 2829 is like these teams starting came out and like that's aggressive. I mean it's 2026 right now. Like that's, there's a lot of to do to get a team up and running and you raise lot. Like I, I had, I, I like to go back and listen to it because when I had Ishba on my show a couple months ago. At your house, actually I recorded at your house. Yeah, I asked him about this and he was, he, he was a Little non. Let's say I basically asked him, do you think they have the votes? Like he was pretty non committal about it. And I just sort of put that in the back of my mind.
- [72:09]
A
They don't have the votes. I'm just telling you they don't now whether they can swing a couple people maybe like even I noticed Houston. Did you follow them getting the WNBA team for 300 million?
- [72:19]
B
Yeah.
- [72:21]
A
Is that a scratch your back now you scratch mine with a vote kind of situation? Because that was really weird that Houston, who already lost the WNBA team, just took a team from Connecticut that why wouldn't that go to the Celtics when the Celtics wanted it? Or another city? Like I thought that was weird. I think all this is really weird and I don't understand why I was presented the way it was. And when my shit detector started going off, it was a Monday morning news leak. Which as we know, Monday morning is always when you put a story out trying to set the tone for the week. And they put it out in a way that made me think this almost seems like they're testing this out to see what the reaction is. They're either trying to convince the fans this is a good idea or they're trying to convince the votes that they don't have that this is a good idea.
- [73:09]
B
So let's.
- [73:09]
A
I do not think they have the votes.
- [73:10]
B
Let's flip it around.
- [73:12]
A
What.
- [73:13]
B
Why is it like, why is it a good idea? Like is beyond like it would feel good to have the Sonics back. Would feel like righting a wrong. And Vegas is Vegas. Like what, what, what is the. If financially it's. It's murky enough that some owners will vote know based on the money. Right. Like based on the expansion fee short term boost versus the long term reduction in our media rights share. If financially it's murky enough that someone won't know based on that version, based on that data point alone. What is the reason for this? Because I don't. I do agree with you. I don't think anyone is like clamoring for more teams. I don't. I, I'm not necessarily worried about talent dilution. I think you can support 32 pretty healthy NBA teams on a talent level. But I also like, no one is sitting there being what. We just have an overabundance of talent. Like we could. We need like six more teams. No one is saying this.
- [74:08]
A
No. I mean the players union, it's 30, 30 more jobs for them. Right. So they, they're pro. I, I can only think Of a couple things. One is you're establishing a value of a franchise. Right. The Celtic sale established a number and then the Lakers sale established an even bigger number. The Celtics number is legitimate. The Lakers number is flawed because if you're trying to buy a percentage of a team that gives you the majority, you're going to overpay for that majority to get the final result. So you say it's 10, but I don't know if you're in a vacuum. Nobody's paying 10 billion for the Lakers or just cutting a check in handy at the somebody, they'd already had a piece of it. So to me it seems like they're trying to establish the number that then becomes the number. Well, this is what we got for our expansion team. This is what our franchises are worth if the goal is we have to right or wrong in Seattle. First of all, you never should have took the team from Seattle in the first place. And I have two Save Our Sonics meal bags from 2008 that I did at the time. It was criminal when it happened. I still can't believe it happened. They let it happen and they didn't rectify it for almost 20 years. You can't then say, well, we're going to add two more teams to fix the wrong we did in Seattle. Especially when you have a couple teams that you have to seriously think about are they in the right markets. Right. First of all, if you're going to move into Seattle, why wouldn't the Portland guy, who doesn't even have an arena yet, have the option to potentially move into Seattle? Why wouldn't some of the other franchises potentially have the option to move there? And that's like conspiracy. Bill wonders like, do you play this expansion thing down the road? Because ultimately you know it's not going to work. And now you're going to relocate a franchise into Seattle and you want to at least cover your tracks and be like, well, we tried, we tried to do expansion, we couldn't get it passed. So we want to fix this in Seattle. And now you move a team.
- [76:06]
B
Is there not a case for Portland wanting Seattle? Because A, it's a great natural built in rivalry that has a history to it already and B, we're not all alone on an island in the Pacific Northwest. We actually have a one short flight road trip per, you know, that we do every year, a couple times maybe.
- [76:25]
A
I don't know. I would, I, I think I would feel better just being the only NBA team in the Pacific Northwest. But I think for the league It's. I mean, obviously it'd be better have a team in Portland. Teams in Portland and Seattle, but.
- [76:37]
B
And for Minnesota. Don't you. Don't you. Isn't there a part of you that's like, well, are we the one that gets to move to the East? Like, does that. Does that factor in at all for you?
- [76:46]
A
I mean, I don't know how they decided. I know they have. They have all these committees, right? They have expansion committee, they have TV committee. They have all these different things. So the expansion committee obviously decided. Seattle and then Vegas are the two best options. I still don't know how they ended up with Vegas. I think there's some other options. I've talked about this on the POD before, but it's interesting. Apparently in the board of governors meeting, one of the loudest guys in the room against this was Chisholm, the guy that just bought the Celtics because he just got into the league. He's not in any of the committees. And I think there was a few people in that room. And it's more than just the owners. Everybody brings their one or two people with them. There are a few people in the room. I don't get it. Why are we doing this? I'm not voting for this. And I think it was a little more contentious than Adam thought it was going to be, which then makes sense why they leaked that story on the Monday morning to try to set the template for it. So, listen, all I'm saying is you better know you're going to have a team in Seattle in the next three years, because to extend this and make it seem like it's going to happen and then pull the rug out from under them again would be pretty fucked up. That.
- [77:55]
B
That we can agree on. I mean, you even have the Seattle media at this thing to ask Adam. And now there's Vegas media there, too. But Vegas is like, already an NBA city in a lot of ways because of summer league and all that stuff. But, like, yeah, you can't do that to Seattle again.
- [78:12]
A
We'll see what happens.
- [78:13]
B
And there's also. There's also the, like. I think part of the discontent was also just like we're doing. There's just a lot of. Of stuff going on at the same time. We have the tanking stuff. We have the Clippers stuff, we have the NBA Europe stuff. We have.
- [78:27]
A
Right.
- [78:28]
B
Like what? Like why. Like, this is a.
- [78:30]
A
Why are we adding this to.
- [78:31]
B
There's a lot that we already have to resolve.
- [78:33]
A
Wnba. Yeah. And. And that's. I said this A week or two weeks ago. But like to me, you can't add two more teams until you fully figure out the tanking rules. And they, they tweeted out three terrible solutions on Friday which I didn't like any of them. Did you?
- [78:51]
B
I thought they were fine. I don't, they're. I, I don't understand. I don't think they're that difficult to understand. Like that was the, some of the outcry was like these are too complicated. They're not really that complicated. They're just basically like we're going to flatten the odds and let some of the play in teams in. I don't. It just, it really depends what, what you, what, what do you want to happen?
- [79:12]
A
I don't want a situation where San Antonio can go one, two and four, three straight years again. And I'm not taking anything away from what happened with them, but I just don't think that's the right way to do it. I don't want a situation like Philly being able to do the process.
- [79:25]
B
Well, one of them had the built in. Had, had some built in safeguard. At least one of the proposals had some built in safeguards where you can't pick in the top whatever I think. And then there was one that had two years worth of record was going to be the basis of war. You pick.
- [79:39]
A
The league has real issues now. Like even you look at a team, you know. Cause then on top of it, you had the player empowerment piece coming into this too. Right. And you have, I don't know, like who's a team that lost somebody in the last five years? Cause the guy just didn't. Mitchell. So Mitchell just decides I don't want to be in Utah anymore. What are you going to do for Utah? You're going to keep him. He's under contract for three more years, but he doesn't want to play there anymore. He wants to go somewhere else. Shit.
- [80:08]
B
What do we have? Anthony Davis.
- [80:10]
A
Well, Darren Fox, it goes on and on, right. So if you're Utah, you made a really good Mitchell trade. You haven't had any luck with the lottery. You're now, you've done pretty well in your picks, but you also didn't win the lottery. And then you see a team like San Antonio goes 1, 2, 4. I don't know, I just don't think any of this is a good system. I don't think if, I think if, like if Indiana wins the lottery this year, they shouldn't then be able to win the lottery a year from now. And that's. I don't know why they haven't done little tweaks like that. Like if you're in top three, you don't get to go back. These seem like pretty simple. I don't mind flattening the odds, though. If they wanted to do like the odds for the worst seven teams are flattened, then it drops down to the next seven and then the four play in, I'd be fine. This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. You know, with just one trip to Whole Foods, you can travel the world. First stop, discover the taste of the Mediterranean. With big sales on brands like Deco, Oreos and San Pellegrino. With Whole Foods prepared foods, dinner is solved. You can roam the world with empanadas, burritos, soups, and more. Maybe expand your snack repertoire to South America with colorful and crunchy Peruvian potato chips. Then straight to Mexico for dessert. You can pick up a tres leches family pack cake for only $10 every Friday. All aboard. Save on regional flavors at Whole Foods Market. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn ads. Ever invest in something that seemed incredible at first but didn't live up to the hype? Well, marketers know the feeling. They optimize for the numbers that look great. Impressions reach reacts. But when they don't show revenue, well, that's not such a great conversation with the CFO. LinkedIn has a word for that. Bull spend. Instead, why not invest in what looks good to your CFO? LinkedIn Ads generates the highest roas of all major ad networks. Reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads you can target by company, industry, job title, and more. So cut the bull. Spend advertise on LinkedIn, the network that works for you. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads. Get a $250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com SimmonsBill that's LinkedIn.com SimmonsBill Terms and conditions apply with that. All right, last thing before we go deep dive, I asked you this. Is this the weirdest NBA season we've ever had? Seems like a pretty bold statement.
- [82:42]
B
It's a big question, first of all.
- [82:45]
A
Cause I was trying to think what's been weirder than everything we've seen now for five months? And every week there's another story. We just talked about this expansion story that came out of nowhere. I'm going to list some of the things that have happened this year. San Antonio went from 34 wins to a title favorite. Wemby arguably became the face of the league. We argued about face of the league last summer for two months and I think Wemby has now become the guy that is the hottest ticket out of the 30 teams. Is that fair? Is there a hotter ticket than Wemby coming to town?
- [83:21]
B
He's must see.
- [83:22]
A
He's the face of the league. Bam had an 83 point game. That happened. The Clippers had an aspiration scandal, started out 619 traded James Harden and they're now making a playoff push and the scandal has not been resolved.
- [83:37]
B
Also, also ignominiously waved Chris Paul who then retired from basketball and waved Chris
- [83:45]
A
Paul during his farewell season. Charlotte had the best net rating for 40 games after going 4 and 14. Kevin Durant had a burner scandal at the All Star game and the team has not been the same since. And we've never found out whether the scandal happened or not. Although I think we have our ideas. Jason Tatum blew out his Achilles in mund in in May. Their over under was 42 wins. They've now already won 50. And he's back and he had 32 points today and that all happened in 10 months. The Lakers looked like an absolute mess and are now contenders who just went fifth in our scary team draft. Phoenix. Stephen A. Smith called Ishbia the worst owner in the league a year ago. Now they're going to be in the playoffs. OKC became villains. We have 10 tanking teams that made Adam Silver snap. The Luka trade officially became the worst trade ever. The Wizards have Trae Young and Anthony Davis.
- [84:38]
B
I was going to say when is that coming up?
- [84:41]
A
We have a hardcore expansion plan. Out of nowhere, everyone turned on inside the NBA. A show that we all loved and considered family. And we might have 10 east teams that have 45 plus wins. So I just listed 5, 15, 17 things and I don't know what I left out.
- [84:58]
B
I mean there's, there's more. I mean.
- [85:00]
A
Well, keep going. What else did. The Pistons are the one seed.
- [85:04]
B
The entire Giannis saga from start to finish.
- [85:07]
A
Giannis, is it a saga? Can we come up with another word? I don't know.
- [85:13]
B
Zion plays now every game. That, that, that, that. That's a weird one.
- [85:19]
A
You're right. New Orleans being the worst team in the league and they're going to give Atlanta the number one pick. And now I think they're like the 10th team in the league the last 20 games.
- [85:29]
B
John Morant, last man standing in Memphis. Except everyone already forgot he's even on the team. Like where when they issued the medical update for him like elbow, the elbow. He's just going to be out for the season. Just like these teams are giving up with these press releases. I half expect them to just like accidentally send one that's just like John Morant injury to come in parentheses, will be out for the season and they accidentally send it.
- [85:52]
A
Did you see that Brian Keefe, the transcript of his press conference when the reporters were asking him why he stopped playing guys and he was just like, well, he'd reached his cap for minutes. These are like healthy 22 year old guys just who just want to play basketball.
- [86:08]
B
The Jazz are like, Kyle Filipowski, you're too good. Just the first two quarters are for you. Sfima Haylouk, you're so good. You can only ever play when we're already down by 30 points. Then we're like, here comes Fee off the bench. It's just absolutely laughable what's going on. There's probably more that I'm just even forgetting. You mentioned James Harden, the Hornets. How about the Bulls?
- [86:33]
A
Just, oh yeah, the James Harden trade. We forgot about that.
- [86:36]
B
The Bulls, just sure they exist. I don't know. 1. How is a team this storied, this now, this irrelevant? The Nets took five first round picks. None of them will make an rookie team. That feels problematic.
- [86:49]
A
Is that true? I mean, I guess that is true.
- [86:52]
B
Joman, I mean, I think if Joman had been healthy the whole season, he would do it. He might have a shot.
- [86:57]
A
I guess we could have thrown in Jalen Brown being a viable MVP candidate.
- [87:01]
B
Sure.
- [87:02]
A
That was like 351 odds. One of the things I was looking at was the over unders before the year and how many teams outperformed or underperformed or over under by like 10 or more wins or losses. And it was more than you'd think.
- [87:15]
B
Donovan Clingan looks more and more like Gunther every day.
- [87:23]
A
That's a good one. Should he just start dressing like Gunther? Should he just come out like that for games?
- [87:30]
B
What's the Kings one? There's gotta be a King. A Kings.
- [87:32]
A
Oh, the Kings. Were the Kings getting mad at you because you called them a train wreck before the season? And five times worse. I called them the Hindenburg and they took that personally. And guess what? It was even worse.
- [87:46]
B
Scottie Pippen doing that. Was that a real thing OR Was that AI? Did you see the Scottie Pippen?
- [87:50]
A
Mr. Pibb DeSota. Yeah, voice of Van Lathan in that.
- [87:54]
B
That's right, that's right. Throw that on the list. He's still mad about the last Dance five years later.
- [88:01]
A
So. All right. So we've established this was a super weird season. We're not even probably done. I went back over history. Cause I'm weird. And I tried to figure out if there had been a weirder season. And there were three candidates. And I'll just go through them quickly. You'll remember them pretty fast. 1995 which had the goofy three point line. It had Michael Jordan returning from baseball to just start playing basketball again in mid March out of nowhere. Houston won the title. As a road team in every series had never had home court advantage in one series. Won the title.
- [88:37]
B
Nick Anderson missed four free throws in a row.
- [88:39]
A
We had the Nick Anderson game and his career was never the same. We had David Robinson win the MVP and then Hakeem had vengeance on him in the playoffs and destroyed him. We had Dennis Rodman taking his shoes off during the spurs series. We had. And completely having a breakdown. We had the Pat Riley, Knicks Miami thing. Wasn't that the year it fell apart? 95. I think so.
- [89:03]
B
I think. I think it might be the next. No, it's 95. I can't remember.
- [89:08]
A
And that was also the Patrick Ewing finger roll missed.
- [89:11]
B
And then we had eight points. Nine seconds is that same series.
- [89:15]
A
And we had Indy Orlando Eastern Conference finals which was the best series ever that nobody's ever talked about again. You could watch five games from that series and you'd be wildly entertained. They wouldn't even show it in hardwood festivals.
- [89:27]
B
The round before when the Magic beat the Bulls is what the. Like what's happening image of the Magic carrying Horace Grant like. Like a high school kid who just made the game winning field goal in the homecoming game off. Carrying him off the court.
- [89:41]
A
That's another thing about 95. Michael Jordan came up short in the playoff series. But it wasn't really Michael Jordan. And he got his vengeance next year. Anyway. That's one candidate.
- [89:50]
B
And he wore number 45.
- [89:51]
A
Yeah, he wore the wrong number. 2004 is our next candidate. Okay. Pistons win the title. They beat the Lakers. The Kobe trial happened that year which was just surreal and bizarre and kind of terrible. We had that crazy Pistons Pacer series where it would be like three minutes left in the fourth quarter. Indiana winning 59 to 58. Remember just scores were like you couldn't even believe. This is basketball. That series single handedly led to some of the rule changes that have now kept happening for 20 years. We had Minnesota having their one good year ever with KG and all that stuff. We had your guy Peja Styakovic. Stakovich.
- [90:37]
B
There you go, the second one. It's always itch. It's always itch.
- [90:40]
A
Always itch. Fourth MVP that year.
- [90:43]
B
His son is playing pretty well for the Illinois fighting Balkans.
- [90:48]
A
We had Dirk and Nash flaming out. We had the Jailblazers officially falling apart. Trading Rasheed Wallace, who played one game for Atlanta and got traded again in the pistons. We had LeBron's first year. We had the crazy 0.4 Derek Fisher shot.
- [91:01]
B
Oh my God.
- [91:03]
A
How many teams were over 99 points a game that year? 99.
- [91:08]
B
2.
- [91:09]
A
2. And we had the 04 Olympics collapse with our backcourt of Stephon Marbury and Steve Francis among the many things in 04. So I would say that was a pretty weird year. It's a good one. Oh, and then we had Shaq getting traded right after the year to Miami. All right, here's our winner. 1978, which featured the Kermit Washington punch of Rudy Tomjanovich. Probably the worst moment of the last
- [91:36]
B
50 years in a game I just before you. I wish FanDuel would have offered me odds on, on who would have won this, which year Bill would pick. Cause I would have gone heavy on 1977. 78. I just. It's a great.
- [91:47]
A
It's the weirdest one. Kareem punched Kent Benson and broke his hand and missed 20 games. Bill Walton got injured when the Blazers were I think 55 and 10 or something and really never came back. We had The Sonics go 5 and 17, fire their coach and make Game 7 in the NBA Finals. In the same year with Lenny Wilkins, they lost to a 44 win bullets team. We had a 44 and 38 bullets team win the title. This was two years after the ABA merger. We had the Braves trying to move and they finally did. We had the Celtics falling apart officially. We had the weirdest MVP vote ever. That nobody still knows who should have won the mvp. We had Doc kind of choke in a playoff series. Doc Julius Irving against Washington and the fans kind of turned on. It was like, hey Doc, I thought you were going to be better than this. That happened. And we only had three 50 win teams. Even though it was an 82 game season, only one team won more than 55 games.
- [92:45]
B
It's a great random year.
- [92:47]
A
I still think that might be the weirdest, but this one's getting close. The Bam. 83 point game I think removed the ceiling for this season. I don't know. So what's your take? Which one out of those four, what was the one that jumped out to you,
- [93:04]
B
95 is a pretty fun year. I might be partial to that one because that's. I'm 17 in that year. And so it's just right in the heart of you're becoming the sports fan that you're going to be. I'm right in Nick's country, so I'm living. Yeah, the mid-90s Knicks thing. All my friends are going crazy about the.
- [93:21]
A
That.
- [93:22]
B
That was the Jordan thing. I mean people who were not alive and or engaged in sports then just don't have any idea how wild it was. That one morning we woke up at six in the morning and the radio on the way to. On the way to practice before school is like Michael Jordan's retiring from basketball. There's like, it was the craziest thing that had ever happened. And then he played baseball and then he came back and he had a double nickel and had to pass to Bill Weddington and all that stuff.
- [93:54]
A
Well, when you talked about knowing. Hearing the news that he retired, that was one thing. Hearing the news that he was coming back, I still think might be the single most exciting news announcement. Because we didn't have hoops hype back then. We didn't have like social media and rumors and whatever it was. Just all of a sudden there were rumors he was practicing with them and everybody. He was kind of word of mouth. Maybe you had a sports radio station in your hometown, maybe you knew a guy who knew a guy. It was like Jordan's. Supposedly he practiced with the bull and then all of a sudden he was back and we were like, this is amazing. Michael Jordan is back. I'd given up on this and that became the most fun two months out of nowhere, this weird season. It was great.
- [94:40]
B
I'm kind of.
- [94:40]
A
So you say 95.
- [94:41]
B
I'm just, I'm just a little, I'm a little bit. By the way, you know what, I'm just thrilled that you included in your 1995 description the, the three seasons they moved the three point line in are like a wild three seasons. If you go on basketball reference and search like the best three point seasons of all time, percentage wise, a bundle of them from like Steve Kerr and Glen Rice are in those three years and people like, don't people just list like oh, Steve Kerr had the greatest single season ever. Glenn Rice had the greatest and they don't even mention that the three point line was like a two feet closer for his three year window. It was like a massive thing or whatever it was. I can't remember exactly how, how much
- [95:23]
A
closer Steve Kershaw, 52.4% from three and dead left. Shrimp was right behind him at 51.4.
- [95:34]
B
It's such a weird thing that they just did this for three years and we're like, no, not good. Just move it back.
- [95:39]
A
I don't even really remember the reasons that I. I don't know whether they thought the paint was getting too clogged or something. And I. It didn't make sense as it was happening and it was kind of awful. But you really stayed in that 95, that Magic Pacers series. You really feel the three point line in that game because for Reggie MILLER it was 21 footers, you know, so you have to chase them everywhere. All right, so we think I, I'm going to go with 78, I think. I gotta be honest, I think, I think 26 is really close. We're like two more weird things away now, but we.
- [96:19]
B
What if, what if the playoffs is all chalk? What if we get at the end of this and it's like Oklahoma City and San Antonio and just like crazy 7 game bloodbath in the Western Conference finals and then the winner beats the Celtics or something in the finals and it just ends up being chalky in the playoffs. Is that, does that take away from the weirdness fact at all?
- [96:37]
A
All right, I'm going to flip it back on you. You've watched this whole season. Is there any chance the playoffs are going to be normal? Any. No, no, I think there's no chance. Even, even if, no chance we're getting a normal playoffs.
- [96:51]
B
Even if we end up at a normal destination, the journey is going to be like we drove off the road and the car went into the pond. Like in the office when the GPS just directs Michael Scott into the lake, it's like it's going to be, it's going to be crazy.
- [97:04]
A
Even like these plans like Charlotte just not making the playoffs would be insane to me. They've had the number one net rating for half the year and there's really a path now for them not to make the playoffs.
- [97:17]
B
Did you mention that the hawks just went 14 and 1? Like the actual 20, 26 Atlanta Hawks? Was that even in the weirdness description? Like they, they didn't just go on like a six game winning streak. They went 14 and one in a 15 game span.
- [97:31]
A
It honestly should have been. Yeah, I mean, well, there's one two, seven games left. I was going to say if, if the season was like 90 games, I feel like they could catch Cleveland. They could just keep going yeah. And then the Lakers thing on top of it. Like, if you're talking about ways the playoffs could get weird, there could clearly be a 18 or a 27 upset. I. I'm like, if. If I gave you odds, yes, there will be a 1-827 upset versus no, there won't. Probably. Like, I don't even know what the odds would be, but I think that's almost like a 50, 50 bet for me.
- [98:08]
B
I'm. I still would go, no, I mean, who. Who is. Who is your upset threat? Charlotte?
- [98:14]
A
I would say Detroit.
- [98:15]
B
They got in.
- [98:16]
A
Right.
- [98:17]
B
But I'm saying, like, who. But who's going to beat Detroit?
- [98:19]
A
I think Boston would be a possible upset, too, at 2. I'm prepared for that. That's the thing. I'm prepared for anything. Who knows?
- [98:28]
B
But who's beating? Miami's not beating any of those teams. Orlando's not. Philadelphia.
- [98:33]
A
What if Philly's the seven seed? You're right. The odds. You're right. No, the odds are we won't get a 27 or a 18 upset, but it's way more in play than it's ever been.
- [98:43]
B
Philly, I just. I just need. I need my. My. I just need time. I can't.
- [98:49]
A
No. This is what I said to Raheem. Raheem was all excited about their future odds, and I was like, look, Embiid would have to play seven times in two weeks, and I don't think he can do it. Right. Just fundamentally, that's probably not happening. But did you see Paul George yesterday?
- [99:05]
B
I did it.
- [99:07]
A
He looked great.
- [99:08]
B
They're. And they're already doing the spin like, you know, maybe this is a blessing in disguise that he missed 25 games because of a ban. Substance. And we plummeted down the standings because. Into the play in. Because now he's fresh.
- [99:20]
A
Unbelievable.
- [99:21]
B
Tyrese Max. Tyrese Maxey is like, this is cool. I just had to play 40 minutes, like, every single game until I got hurt.
- [99:28]
A
I finally got hurt. Cause I was on a record pace for guards playing, playing minutes. Yeah. I would not want to see them in the 2 7. There's a bunch of teams I'd rather see. I also like Charlotte as a 18 is not ideal. I just fit. This is why this is one of my favorite ideas that I just wish they would adopt. 1 8. I think you get five home games.
- [99:51]
B
I.
- [99:52]
A
Who's against this?
- [99:54]
B
The teams that would get less revenue for their home playoff games.
- [99:58]
A
2, 2, 3.
- [100:00]
B
I don't.
- [100:00]
A
The 1 seed should be worth something.
- [100:02]
B
Look, if you can't, if you can't. And I actually went through this, I had a meeting with some league officials about a bunch of different things.
- [100:09]
A
Oh, look how fancy you are.
- [100:10]
B
And I asked about, I asked about, like, why can't, why can't we just let the one seed pick its opponent out of the play? And so that's logistics and arena dates, and if you let that happen, that you don't know any of the matchups. All right, those seem to be intractable problems. We need to set the matchups and the TV schedule. Then give me, then give me something. If I've slogged through this 82 game, you know, Journey, and I'm the number one team, like, I got to get something. I don't, I don't, I, I, what I shouldn't get is like, oh, fuck, the Hornets are eight and I gotta deal with this in the first round.
- [100:42]
A
And I might be down three, two going into a game six with Aaron Collins losing his mind.
- [100:48]
B
Then again, if you can't beat the Hornets, I guess you don't deserve to win the championship. 2 7, Boston Philly. Come on, Boston Philly is always such a great time. Great rivalry, Amtrak corridor, a lot of history. That's a great time.
- [101:00]
A
I just think with the three point shooting and the variance of these games, I'm scared every series, no matter who I'm playing at this, this point.
- [101:06]
B
Except Orlando.
- [101:08]
A
Except Orlando, who gave up 31 straight points today. And by the time people listen to this, might have a new coach. Who knows? It could be. Here's our new coach, Penny Hardway, out of nowhere. All right, anything else before we go? I can't remember what else we were supposed to talk about.
- [101:24]
B
I'm good.
- [101:24]
A
How you feeling about the Mets? Oh, I know what I want to talk to you about really quick. Abs, do you watch any baseball this weekend?
- [101:35]
B
Yeah, I did. I watched the Mets.
- [101:37]
A
The, the challenge. It's called abs.
- [101:39]
B
Oh, that. Yeah, it's so fast. Instant like this. Boba Shet did a bad one today and I thought he was actually going to be right. He tapped it and it was like, nope, wrong. Boba Shet. I love it.
- [101:50]
A
Most exciting ad I think we've ever had from it. Because first of all, it was half of my text threads all weekend and I watched every Red Sox game and the Red Sox fucked up their two ABs's early in the second game.
- [102:01]
B
You get two right, that's it.
- [102:03]
A
Fucked him up early. We go into the later parts of the game, we have the worst umpire of all time behind the plate and he just keeps messing up. But we have no more challenges left. And it was all my texts for like three hours. So the Mets like, we're in hell.
- [102:18]
B
The season opener, their very first abs of the season flipped. It was a 3, 2 count. Flipped a walk to a strikeout. It was called a ball. The Mets challenged it and it became a strikeout. That's like, I was like, great, great times. That is awesome.
- [102:33]
A
We had the opposite. We get the inning ending. Strikeout guy does this reversed. It's like, oh my God. Next pitch, same thing, reversed again. Now it's like, oh my God, we're going to lose. And then he got a strikeout. But it was like it was this added drama I wasn't expecting.
- [102:51]
B
I love that the batters can just do it without asking anybody. Just like, I fuck that. I'm just hitting my own head and like, oh, I'm sorry I screwed the whole team. By the way. You would be. You're the perfect guy to ask about this. Here are some things that happened in the first Met the Mets home opener. I don't know if you saw any of this. The singer of the national anthem plays this is a real Thing plays George Washington currently in Hamilton. He is a Tony Award winning actor playing the first president of the United States in Hamilton. Forgot the words to the national anthem in the middle of singing at the home opener.
- [103:28]
A
Oh no.
- [103:29]
B
And just like just put together two verses that don't go together. Then later in the game the Mets won the game, but later in the
- [103:36]
A
game they did the Frank Trevin.
- [103:39]
B
No, he's just saying. There was like a pause where it's like he's been silent for a beat too long. And then the wrong lyrics came that didn't match the lyrics that came. There were actual lyrics from the Star Spangled Banner but they were just not the ones that he was supposed to say at that moment. And then later in the game in right field, two birds crashed into each other and one of them died. And Carson benjet to like get a towel and pick up the bird and like walk it off the field.
- [104:07]
A
They just like, would they crash going for a fly ball or.
- [104:10]
B
No one crashed. I did not see video of the birds colliding, but it was not a Randy Johnson, Dave Winfield situation. Threw a ball, the birds like apparently just head on.
- [104:19]
A
So is that a good sign or a bad sign?
- [104:20]
B
This is what I'm saying. I know they won the game. The anthem thing is kind of funny and I just don't know what to make of any of
- [104:27]
A
was a great weekend for sports and I I was sick for a little bit of it and it was just an embarrassment of riches to be able to bounce around and watch all kinds of stuff.
- [104:38]
B
Sox are 1 and 2 or 2 and 1. Where are we?
- [104:40]
A
1 and 2.
- [104:41]
B
2.
- [104:41]
A
Two close losses and on a 25 man roster they have five hole. Sorry. So feeling good. Great. Feeling good. Thought they were going to be a little more solid. Did you see Project Hail Mary yet?
- [104:52]
B
No, but apparently the directors are massive Clippers fans and so I kind of want to watch it. But is it? Have you seen it? I mean I love Gosling. I'll watch Gosling.
- [105:01]
A
Can't wait to see it. Can't wait to see it. Have you seen Eddie and the Cruisers? I have not. That's going to be the rewatchables after we do LA Confidential tomorrow. The next one after is Eddie and the Cruisers because we've been pushing for it to come back on streaming for five years. It finally came back. It's all over the place. And after CR month we felt like we'd earned like it's the end of the dinner. When you give the chocolates to your customers, this is going to be the chocolates.
- [105:30]
B
LA Confidential is so heavy. Like Russell Crowe's performance by itself stresses me out when he breaks the chair. I'm so stressed out the entire time that I need. I need to like have a cigarette.
- [105:41]
A
Effort New new Chris Ryan character in the LA Confidential rewatchables. Okay, it's Sham Sharania as the LA Confidential reporter from Hush Hush magazine. I didn't know if he pulled off. It was at 9.9 degree difficulty and he nailed it. So that's coming. We have that ends in love. So anyway, LA Confidential, that's coming. Thanks to State Farm for for helping us out with this little live stream on Netflix. Zach is going Tuesday morning.
- [106:15]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [106:17]
A
We'll see what happens in the weirdest NBA season. Thanks to Eduardo and Gahau and Chris, everybody else at the Ringer as well thanks to Netflix and I will be back on this feed on Tuesday. Must be 21 plus on President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 Plus. I'm present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gaming problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-My reset. Call 888-797-7777 or visit ccpg.orgchinconnecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050. For 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-Hopeny or text hopeny in New York. For For Louisiana, call 877-770-7867. This episode is brought to you by TaxAct. Like an expert coach, TaxAct offers step by step guidance and guaranteed accuracy when filing taxes. Get tips along the way. Add Expert Assist to talk to tax experts and let our experts do your taxes for you. With Expert full service, TaxAct helps you find the deductions and credits you deserve so you can get them over with. Visit taxact.com to learn more. Conditions apply. See taxact.com for details.