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The Bill Simmons Podcast
Why a Weird NBA Season Finally Went Full Weirdo On Us, With Tim Legler
01:50:47
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- [00:01]
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- [01:07]
Bill Simmons
The Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by FanDuel Sportsbook. We are also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where I have a podcast called the Rewatchables that was on Spotify and all these other platforms and you could watch the video on Spotify and now you can watch it on Netflix as well. We put up a bunch of old episodes and then the newest episode we did on Monday, Zodiac. And we went longer than the actual movie Zodiac. I think we were 13 minutes longer. You can watch it on Spotify and listen to it on Spotify. You can also watch it on Netflix and you can watch the movie on Netflix. So next week we are going to do Wild Things, another movie that's on Netflix, a movie that's been on the list for a long, long time. So you have five days to watch Wild Things. And by the way, if you want to get this podcast or the Rewatchables or any of the other Ringer podcasts on Netflix, click on the My List thing. If you click on it every time we have a new episode, it'll just pop up on your My List thing and it makes it way easier to see if we have a new one up. But it's been fun to be on there and I hope you're continuing to consume the podcast on Spotify as well. Cause we love Spotify. Anyway. Coming up on this podcast, the one, the only, Tim Legler. I had a bunch of stuff to throw at him and I made him go through a power poll of all the teams, 30 to 1. I ranked them. He played off my rankings. We've done this before as a Bill Simmons podcast, but this was fun. We had a lot to cover and we got to talk about Charlotte again, which is really all I want. All I want to do is talk about Charlotte and the Celtics on my podcast. At this point, the other 28 teams, whatever. Anyway, that's all coming up next. We're going to take a break. Going to bring in Pearl Jam and then Tim Legler. The Bill Simmons podcast is presented by FanDuel. Playoff mode is on. FanDuel's got it all. Same game parlays, quick bets for jumping in live offers to boost your winnings every game day. You do not want to miss out on the playoff action. The remaining playoff action we have on FanDuel. Download the FanDuel app or head to FanDuel.com BS to get started. 21 in President Select States or 18 in President D.C. kentucky or Wyoming Prom Code 100 Gamblers or visit rg-help.com call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Conn. All right, our friend Tim Legler is here. We're taping this Tuesday afternoon, Pacific Time because he had to fly. Congrats on actually getting a flight that successfully landed in another part of the United States. He's in Cleveland getting ready to do a Cavs game tomorrow. We're gonna go through the league. I sent you my power poll that I did 30, 30 to 1. We're going to go down in order. We've never done this before. You're going to enjoy it. I had a thing at the top that I didn't prep you on. I looked this up. Last 25 games, the best record in the league is 17 and 8, and the worst record in the league is 7 and 18. All 30 teams in the last 25 games are separated by 10 games, which raises the larger question of what's going on this season. Why? Why does it feel like everybody is kind of near each other game to game? Anyone could beat anybody on a given night. Nobody is elevating above anybody else. What the hell is happening?
- [04:53]
Tim Legler
So I agree with everything you just said. It's been the weirdest year that I've covered. Absolutely no idea on a given night what to expect. You look at matchups and you think you got a pretty good feel for who should win the game, and you have no idea. And the reason is because I think it's because I'm seeing a greater fluctuation than I've seen In the guys being available, that's been going on for a while. But the availability of players being as tumultuous as it is, that lends to some of this. But I'm also seeing a tremendous fluctuation. The number of nights that I've seen teams either been person when I've sat courtside calling a game, sitting at home on league pass, watching the game, the fluctuation in effort. There are nights when you watch teams and you can't believe how flat they are, you know, and I've seen more of that this year than any other time. Which means on any given night anybody is capable of beating anybody. It may sound like you think that's a cliche because it's the NBA, but normally that's not the case. If you have teams that are contenders, that are teams that are really playing for something later in the year, we all know that. And you get a team that is not, or a team that's got a bunch of young dudes, or a team that's clearly not really that concerned about winning games because they're trying to think about the future. Like, and you get that team on your home floor mid season in the dog days, you're supposed to beat that team down. And I've seen more nights now where those teams have been flat or one team even in a matchup where two really good teams are about to play and you're super excited about the game and for whatever reason, one of them just comes out and they're so flat it's almost borderline disinterested. And you just, it leads to these crazy scores, these really weird results. Some of the blowouts we've seen from bad teams beating down good teams, right? Not just winning like buzzer beaters, like, oh, wow, they played hard, they thought they were in the game and they eventually won it. No, they beat beaten teams by 25 and 30 points on their home floor. So I agree with you. It's been a crazy year now. I think it's going to stabilize. I think when you get to after the all Star break, you get into early March, you're going to see start some of this start to stabilize and you're going to start to really hone in on that, whatever it may be, 6, 8, 10 teams, however many you are really interested in at the top, those are the teams you're going to focus on. You're going to see more consistent effort and more consistent availability of their guys at that point. I think both of those things have led to it.
- [07:26]
Bill Simmons
I think That's a good answer. I would throw in a couple ideas I had as well. The three point shooting, because there's more threes than ever every year. There's been more threes in the last year since, I don't know, seven straight years. And you just have these nights, like, I might be able to beat OKC if they shoot 7 for 30 from 3. Right. Which they'll do from time to time. And you look at some of the losses they've had, they just didn't make threes. Conversely, I might be able to beat anybody If I go 20 for 42 from 3. I just might. That just might be what I shoot today. And you're probably not going to beat me because I'm getting 10 extra points. So I think the shooting's better, the depth is better. I think there's teams with benches this year where you look back to 2006 or you go to 2013, nobody had benches. Like, remember that one year the Nuggets were good when they had Ty Lawson and all those guys, I was like, the Nuggets, they're so deep. Oh, there's like 20 teams like that now. I think that's one of the reasons the Raptors have been good. Like, they can be down 10 in the first quarter and then you watch their bench just bring them back. So there's. There's depth. And the third thing, which I did prep you on, I do feel like there's a before and after moment happening with the coaching. I feel like we're moving into this new era of coaches. And I'm looking at guys like, for instance, Jordy Darko, Charles Lee, Missoula, Adelman, Thiago Splitter. There's one more that I'm leaving out because. Not Jordan, those sides.
- [08:57]
Tim Legler
I put Mitch Johnson in there, too.
- [08:59]
Bill Simmons
So Mitch Johnson and I was thinking about in football when we watched this happen at some point with these younger guys, the McVeigh type guys, and they came in and they were young, they were hungry, they were workaholics. And it just became harder for these old school coaches to beat these young type guys. And this was a thing that happened in the NFL for a while. And I wonder in basketball if this is starting to happen. These guys are raised on analytics. They're raised on. They have more pieces to work with. They're like chefs in the kitchen that have 10 different ingredients instead of four. They can kind of shape their team to a style. They could be like, you know what? Like Phoenix. We're just going to try harder than Everyone else, that's going to be our style. We have one great player. We're going to be really intense. We're going to pressure everybody and we're going to come at waves. And this is just how we're going to play. And then we're actually going to do it. There's just more of that than ever. And I think day to day, I think it's just harder to get through the schedule. I'm impressed. Now when teams win seven in a row, I think that's like, shit, Toronto just went 4 and 2 on the west coast trip. I'm like, that's pretty good. Charlotte, think. What did they go? 4 and 2, 4 and 3. It's like, that's impressive. Like, you shouldn't be able to do that. But do you see? I know you care about this probably as much as anyone. Do you see something shifting with the coaching here?
- [10:16]
Tim Legler
I think this is the best collection of young coaches as far as an infusion of young coaching talent that this league has ever seen.
- [10:23]
Bill Simmons
Okay.
- [10:23]
Tim Legler
And I didn't know a lot of these guys very well. I got to spend time with them in September when I did some of those coaches corner things I was doing. And so, you know, what you see is like three minutes of film breakdown. But we had longer conversations than that. That wasn't aired unless the longer version was on NBA TV or something. You might have seen it there. But that was for some of these guys. Like last year, I interviewed Adelman a couple times because I had playoff games. And he took over, obviously right before the playoffs, so you get an opportunity to kind of meet him. But that's different in a pregame interview than really spending time and kind of like just, you know, shooting the shit with them. And I was so impressed walking out of the room with all of these different guys you just mentioned for a lot of different reasons. One is they clearly have, like, minds for the game, that they're processing stuff and constantly trying to find ways to, like, make offense better, make defense better. Like, their minds are so analytical in the way they think, but they have found a way to command the room. At a time when I think new coaches come in, there's just natural skepticism on the part of the players.
- [11:30]
Bill Simmons
Right?
- [11:31]
Tim Legler
It. There's. That's always there. Particularly when, you know, in some cases, guys hired from within, like, these guys stayed within the organization, it's a little bit easier. The players have been working with those guys already, so that transition is a little bit easier, but it's still a totally different power Structure when now they're the head coach. It's a different relationship. But the guys that have come in and they come from other places and you know that these players are not that familiar with them. To be able to come in when you're young, particularly when. Because they made it higher and obviously. Why? Because the team has not done well the last few years. There's a natural pessimism and a cynicism that exists already in the room. So you've got to come in, not only convince them you know what the hell you're talking about, which players are constantly seeking out fraudulent things that come out of your mouth when there's a coaching change, to not buy in. Not only do you have to do that, convince them, like, okay, this guy's pretty smart. It's a pretty good idea. You then have to be able to have the presence to command the situation. And handling both is not very easy for guys to have this many young coaches doing it at the same time at really high level. Look. And some of them haven't had as many wins as other guys, you know, for different reasons. You hope they get a long enough run to turn it around where they are. But that's a long list you just gave. I mean, it's basically. You almost named almost a third of the league.
- [12:55]
Bill Simmons
I literally named 25. Well, you throw in the San Antonio coach, that's eight of the 30.
- [13:00]
Tim Legler
Yeah.
- [13:01]
Bill Simmons
And there are all these younger guys. Like, I look at a team like Brooklyn, that team's overachieving. Like, I watched the entire Celtics Nets game Friday night. And I.
- [13:08]
Tim Legler
Wait a second, though. Wait a second, though. I love Jordy. I love Jordy. I tell. But I will say this. The defense at the end of overtime.
- [13:18]
Bill Simmons
Oh, that was bad. That was bad.
- [13:19]
Tim Legler
To allow that three point shot. Look, that's way beyond a miscommunication. I mean, I have no idea. I watched it four times in a row.
- [13:26]
Bill Simmons
How did that happen?
- [13:27]
Tim Legler
I just kept replaying it because I'm thinking with like two seconds to go, and you're. You're up three. How in the world could Gonzalez get that open in the. In the corner off an inbound password? Nobody within 20ft of him. And I'm just watching, like, what was Michael Porter Jr doing? He's running with them and then just stops, changes direction and starts running to the opposite side of the court with Sam House. But there was no screen that took place. It was so bizarre that I'm not going to beat up Jordy for that, but that's a brutal way to lose a game when you, when you basically stole one, it didn't look like you had a chance with three minutes to go in regulation. And now it looks like you can't possibly lose at the end of overtime and somehow you find a way to let him tie it. So that's a bad loss. But I agree with you. I do think that team is overachieving. Look at that roster. I mean there's, there's, there's no question about it. But then guys like Mitch Johnson and Ott and, and Darko, who I've always been really thought was really sharp, he's finally getting some wins now that people are starting to buy into that a little bit. Adelman is unbelievably bright and he's just really cool. He's kind of funny when you get to hang around him.
- [14:28]
Bill Simmons
His personality stuff going 9 and 5 without, without Yokovic, and then Murray leaves halfway through that and they're still like succeeding. And he's getting stuff out of the.
- [14:37]
Tim Legler
All the other guys that have been out already when you know Christian Brown's been out, Aaron Gordon's been out. So you look at the totality of what they are and knowing their best punch by far is going to come over the last six weeks of the regular season. So, so, you know, and we're going to get into that like, what does that mean overall for how we view like what this could look like at the end of the year? Because I think it looks a lot different than any of us thought two months into the season for a variety of reasons. And we'll get into the games as well.
- [15:08]
Bill Simmons
I was thinking with basketball analysis, there was a specific moment and I was in the middle of it. Cause I was writing for ESPN and we had Grantland where you could feel the discourse about basketball like changing in real time, right? And it was the old school way of like, oh, he's really good in the clutch. And you would just kind of say that. And then all of a sudden we started to get numbers and we started looking at five man lineups. And I remember I've talked about this before, but when I was on Countdown that first year and Rudy Gay got traded and we had this whole argument about, well, what are they gonna do without Rudy Gay, that's their guy at the end of games. And we had enough data at that point where it's like, he's actually not that good at the end of games, they might be fine. And then they went on a run and it felt like this before and after moment, free Analytics. And I'm starting to wonder with coaches. It's not like coaches weren't using all this stuff for the last 10 to 12 years because they were. I think what's changed is these first time coaches, younger guys are coming in, they know how to explain it to their teams and craft different lineups that the players are buying into. Right. It's not, it's not like, hey, I have this wacky idea and you have your fingers crossed they're going to do it. Like the teams are buying in. I see a team like Phoenix, the team should not be 10 games over.500. I'm sorry, but when you watch them, it makes sense. Cause the eye test is telling you like, yeah, these guys are just, they play really well together. They're all in the right spots. They knew who the best guy on the team is. They game the threes correctly, they have enough rim protection size, they can guard the other team's best player. Like this makes sense as I watch it. But if you look at their roster on basketball reference, you're like, this doesn't make sense. I don't get it. And that's.
- [16:46]
Tim Legler
You make, you make a great point from this. And this is why think about now, the difference in mentality. If you've got a guy that's been around a while, okay, he, he knew the other way. There was another standard way of kind of analyzing like lineups. And it was mostly the eyeball test and like your gut feeling and the numbers weren't a big part of what they were doing on a daily basis to process like what their team was about. These guys are so young, that's all they've known. So from the time they really first started getting to a place where they're starting to, you know, ascend a little bit within NBA on an NBA bench, that's all they've known. This has been around long enough that it has completely influenced the way that these particular group of guys analyze their teams. So you didn't have to sell any of these guys on it. They already utilized it prior to becoming head coaches. And in a lot of ways that's all they know. So I think that they are more willing to look at that stuff. I think sometimes it can be overused, but there's no question it has a major bearing. And JJ Reddick would be another guy you could throw into the mix also, by the way, really young coach, recently retired coach. You talk about a guy that's like diving into the analytics. I mean that's, it's like such A big part of what he was doing when he was in media and what he's as a player. So he just rolled that right into now the way that he kind of views his team as well. There's so many coaches in the league now that that's just par for the course. That's the way they've always done it because they're so young and it's influenced the way they coach. And I think there is some really good stuff that comes out of that as a result. Different combinations that you didn't know were that good because in the past there wasn't enough data to back that up. But now even a smaller sample size you kind of go, wow, that's interesting. Maybe I'll give that group a little bit more run. If there's something to that you're going to find out.
- [18:29]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, the Celtics had that Walsh eye test wise looked like he was playing really well but there were lineups that were just better when he wasn't in them. Right. And they started gravitating toward this Houser lineup. And if you look at like their best five man lineups, Hauser's usually in the best one. I don't know, there might be the spacing he does offensively. He's kind of an underrated defender too but for whatever reason he's the one that fits. And you mentioned JJ because I think JJ is probably has the most frustrating team to coach out of all these teams because you have these, these offense only stars. You don't know when they're going to guard anybody. They don't really fit together. But he figured out I just got to play Rui as much as possible and I got to start moving away from Ayton. Right. And that's what's happened with them in the last week. They're moving. Ayton's kind of, you can see it happening in real time. He's getting shoved out. They're going with Rui, with Luka, with LeBron and that's in Marcus Smart and they'll try to figure out who that fifth spot is. And that's. And I'm sure there's a bunch of advanced stuff they're looking at. Like this is actually when we have these four together, this is probably our best chance and Rui's been the secret sauce for them. One thing I had before we get to the power poll and we say this every year, but I feel like it matters more than ever. I'm thinking about it a lot this year. The difference between being a Good regular season team and being a good playoff team. Because when we go into this power poll, there's some teams I don't know where to put, because obviously in April and May, I'm going to trust them more than some of the teams that are in the power poll. And there's some regular season teams, like a team like Toronto. If you have depth during the regular season, that's great. In a playoff series, I'd probably feel pretty good about going against them. But game to game, week to week road trips, you want, like a deeper team. Maybe the Celtics could be like that because their bench has been good. I don't know. But do you feel like this is a more pronounced chasm than ever between what do I trust when I'm watching here in the regular season versus in the playoffs? Am I just going to feel differently about this team?
- [20:28]
Tim Legler
Completely? Because I think some of the teams that have been great stories and they've surprised us and it's been great. It's been refreshing because it gives you more teams to talk about, which is great for us. You know, give. Give me more to dive into. Toronto, Phoenix, like, teams like that, like, being where they're at, that's great. And they kind of surprised us. But individually, when you start looking at some of these teams and it's going to be interesting because I think we're going to talk about the power poll. Like, some of these teams, like, obviously we know who's. Several of these teams at the very, very top, like, kind of know that, okay, these teams legitimately can make a deep run, go all the way. Who knows?
- [21:01]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [21:01]
Tim Legler
Then there's gonna be that next group where you're gonna. You're trying to analyze, like, picturing them having to win multiple playoff series or even in one playoff series, and you start thinking about matchups. And now all of a sudden, some of these teams, you realize, like, I don't know if they're gonna be able to win four times against some of those teams because there's no track record there. So there's a. There's an uncertainty about how some of these teams are going to handle that situation. I mean, even a team like Detroit, as great as they've been, truth is they haven't won a playoff series. And to win a playoff series is a lot different than battling the Knicks, you know, giving them all they could handle last year. That's a lot different than finishing off those games, winning four times against a really good team. Now, look, they're not going to have to play a top tier team in the first round. So you would think home court advantage, Detroit should be okay. And now they'll say, whoa, there you go. Now they've got a playoff series win under the belt. That should make things a lot different. I'm talking about beating teams that can come close to looking you in the eye, right? That's different. Winning four times against them, when you've got no experience in doing that collectively and you've got a bunch of young guys, you don't know how certain guys are going to react when they get into that situation. And guys that are giving you that little burst and punch now and giving nights to help you. Well, it's a fine line between those same players having a 30% shooting series. And now it's like really tough. Man, those minutes that were so great in the regular season, it's harder now with particular groups because certain guys are really struggling in the playoffs for a variety of reasons. So that's why I think there is a lot of uncertainty with that second tier of teams that are trying to crack through the and make us believe, like they could be a conference finalist or a finalist like that next group beyond the top two or three. That's when it gets a lot more interesting, this conversation.
- [22:55]
Bill Simmons
Well, there's even a couple teams in that one B group where I watched, like the Celtics had a really interesting game against the Pistons last week. And one of the things that was happening was they were just like, we're just not going to guard Thompson. Yeah, good luck. Ironically, that's also happening in some of the Houston games where teams are going, yeah, we're just not good luck. We're going to let him go. And in a playoff series, when you're playing the same team seven games, that's the stuff that starts pulsating. Like Detroit in the Celtic game found something against Garza. They just started attacking him. Not so coincidentally, all of a sudden, Amari Williams is in the Celtics rotation. Garza didn't play last night. Maybe he was hurt, I don't know. But it was one of those moments where it was like, shit, I don't know if we can play Garza in the playoffs here. Cause Detroit's just like feasting on him in these five minutes. And that's kind of stuff you tuck away for later. The other thing is, like, when I think about teams like the Knicks, Minnesota, whoever, like, if you have a top eight player, I'm just, you're on my. I'm taking you seriously. This, no matter how you're looking over this Stretch. I do want to see you put together like one nice 15 to 20 game stretch though, during the season, which I think we'll talk about the Clippers in a second. But like The Clippers going 15 and three in 18 games is meaningful.
- [24:09]
Tim Legler
Like this is kidding.
- [24:11]
Bill Simmons
Reclaim their corners.
- [24:12]
Tim Legler
Still amazed at the number of conversations that I'm having here over the last couple of weeks, whether in the industry or outside the industry. Just like basketball fans that are friends of ours, right, they're just not remotely convinced that you better take notice because they're not just like winning. You know, when you go whatever. They were 6 and 21 at the start. I guess maybe people just completely think I don't have to watch the Clippers anymore the rest of the year.
- [24:41]
Bill Simmons
We do.
- [24:41]
Tim Legler
It's our job. So you're still paying attention. They start winning some games, you're like, okay, that's interesting. 15 and 3, 18 games in basically a five to six week period of time when their defensive numbers have, have shifted to this extent is something you have to pay attention to. They have held teams in that 18 game stretch 11 times to 105 points or less. 105 in today's NBA, right, is like 90 when I played, like that's what it feels like if you hold A team under 110 points. It's like, you know, wow, they really got after it tonight. They just did it 11 times in the last 18 games. And it reminds me of what they were doing last year defensively when I called a few of their games and I was so impressed with their ability to pressure the ball all over the floor and their length and their quickness to recover for each other. And of course, and Kawhi was healthy most of that time. They're back to playing that level defense and they're getting incredible offensive years out of their two best players. So how can you not notice? And it's like, it's also like, it's like a string of wins that they're getting. Like these are some good teams that they've knocked off. So I'm listen, I've got one eye on them at all times now, this ascension. And you think about what I'm talking about. They've only gotten to 10th. I mean that's how far they were buried. You went 15 out of 18 and you're still 10th.
- [26:04]
Bill Simmons
That's where they were still 13 to 1 to win the division. Yeah, their last 18, they're plus 8.9 per 100. They're fourth in the league. But the. You you mentioned Kawhi. He's averaging he the last 18. He missed two. He played 16. He's averaging 32 in the, in the, in the games that he played. And he's 51, 43, 92 and looks like Kawhi. I mean, eye test wise, this is 2017 Kawhi, it looks like. So anyway, we'll take a break and then we're going to go through the power poll because we got a lot of stuff to cover. The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. It's the last call for football, and FanDuel makes me so sad. One final Sunday, one last kickoff, the final chance to place your bets before the NFL season closes its tab. I'm sad. If you're a new customer, bet $5, get $200 in bonus bets. If you win, make it count. Because after the super bowl, the season's over and football is officially done. I'm still sad. Last call for football and FanDuel, an official sportsbook partner of Super Bowl 60. Visit FanDuel.com to get started. Must be 21 plus in President select states or 18 plus in President in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. First online real money wager only. $5.00. First deposit required. Bonus issued as non withdrawable bonus petrified. Expire seven days after receipt restrictions apply. Seat terms at supportsbook.fanduel.com, gAM problem, call 1-800- Gamble or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-78-9777 or visit ccpg.org ChatInCenetic all right, so I separated in groups. We'll just rip through this group. I want to talk about one team and if there's a team in this group you're excited about, flag it after all right, number 30 is Washington. They have the worst net rate. They're minus 11, 1 and 9. Their last 10. I think they've settled into we want to stink. We want to get top four pick number 29. I have Milwaukee. This is no Giannis Milwaukee. He's not playing for another six weeks. I actually think their 2 through 12 is the worst 2 through 12 in the league. I want to get your take on that. I don't think any other team in the league would trade their 2 through 12 for Milwaukee's 2 through 12.
- [28:15]
Tim Legler
I mean, I think for that particular question, if I really wanted to just give you like definitive answer, I would probably need to right now pull up two through 12 on four or five different teams. But my point is this. You're not Crazy for throwing out into the conversation.
- [28:29]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [28:29]
Tim Legler
I mean, look at the roster.
- [28:31]
Bill Simmons
It's brutal. It's brutal.
- [28:35]
Tim Legler
And you look at what's happening to them now. Like when you combine the roster with now the level, like what they're dealing with psychologically, not having him. And the one differentiating factor for your team every night is having that force and not having that combined with that roster. I think you probably have put them appropriately where they belong as long as he's out.
- [28:57]
Bill Simmons
So they, the biggest wrinkle with them is they get the worst of the first pick between them and New Orleans. So in a weird way, if the, if the season goes south and they end up being one of the eight worst teams, it's not the worst thing in the world. The what's killed them is I don't think they could trade Giannis. Zach did a thing on his podcast yesterday with Mo about is this actually still okay that they could trade Giannis or did this make this impossible and not really landing? Either way, I'm more in the. I don't know who's trading for him with all the stuff you'd have to give up not knowing if he's going to even be back in April. Plus he's had this injury multiple times. To me it's a complete stay away. I'll revisit in the summer. Show me you're healthy. I can't see anyone doing that. Do you agree with that?
- [29:39]
Tim Legler
First of all, that would be the approach I would take. I'm not saying I wouldn't want to try to acquire Giannis Rozetokounmpo, but with the number of times now that he's been dealing with this injury and me needing to see like this motivated Giannis in the summer, healthy Giannis in the summer. Yes, I think there are teams that you do what you have to to make a run at him. I kind of agree with the uncertainty right now of when you're going to see him again at full strength and the possibility because you know it's going to be tight then with the playoffs, is he going to be coming back like forcing himself onto the court because he wants to make a run with some team and does that mean he ends up re injuring himself in the playoffs anyway and you've given up a ton now if you've got more of a longer term view and it's not just about trying to get it done this year, I don't know, maybe you do it anyway because he's just so intriguing because of how dominant he is. And I think how highly motivated he would be with a change of scenery and what that could do to reinvigorate him, I would still think about it.
- [30:37]
Bill Simmons
I'm going to thought bubble this for you. Would you trade for anybody about to hit their mid-30s who is a big guy with a lot of miles in them? With all the evidence that we've seen at this point, would you give up the farm? What are the success Stories here? Even KG, when the Celtics got him in 08, he's probably 31. He broke down a year later. Chris Weber, Dwight Howard broke down a bunch of times. Shaq started. He started to have the injuries in the mid 2000s. I would just get really nervous about trading for big guys with miles. And there's been a couple outliers. And then when you go smaller and you get to like the LeBron size, there's probably more success. But the taller guys, I don't know, I'd be really nervous to do it. This to me, the Giannis, if they were like, hey, no, he's going to be back in late March. You should trade for him. It's like somebody offering you the nicest car ever. And it's like it was just in the shop for the seventh time. But it's going to be great. The mechanics said he fixed.
- [31:35]
Tim Legler
And you know what?
- [31:36]
Bill Simmons
This one thing we have, you should get it. It'll be awesome.
- [31:39]
Tim Legler
I'm standing in that garage, I'm looking at that car for a long time.
- [31:42]
Bill Simmons
Man, this is a nice car. How fast does it go?
- [31:46]
Tim Legler
The only thing they're not going to let you do is test drive it, though.
- [31:48]
Bill Simmons
That's the problem.
- [31:49]
Tim Legler
You just got to. You got to buy as is. It's an as is contract.
- [31:52]
Bill Simmons
They're showing you clips of the 20, 21 race that it won, was going 220 miles an hour. Beat all these.
- [31:59]
Tim Legler
And meanwhile, you're on the side, like, Googling Carfax, trying to get that report. You know, the commercial, the commercial with the cute fox that we see all the time, like going to that website. What's that? You know? And yeah, so that's a good point. But I'm telling you, I mean, I'd be. I'd be. I'd be looking at that car for a while, trying to make up my body and sleep on that decision.
- [32:18]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, if you're Atlanta, if you've never been in a race, that's the thing. You're like, all right, this is our one chance to get them. Okay, number 28, Brooklyn. Number 27, Sacramento. They both basically have 12 wins. Number 26, Indiana, who I think is a noble 11 and 36 team, man. I actually think they play hard and give a shit and they just don't have enough talent, sadly.
- [32:42]
Tim Legler
Has anybody, has any player like, I don't know, earned more respect on an 11 win team than Pascal Siako?
- [32:50]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [32:51]
Tim Legler
Every night. And I watch the Pacers a lot just because I don't know the guys on that team I'm kind of interested in. So I watched the Pacers a good amount.
- [32:59]
Bill Simmons
I like them too.
- [32:59]
Tim Legler
And I love watching Siakam play. Yeah, and I'm watching this guy. And if you had no idea when you, when you turn it on to watch the game, you had no idea what the record was, what's going on. Like, you're just like watching this guy that looks exactly like he did when he was playing for Toronto and they won a championship. Exactly like he did last year. The last two years with Indiana, last year, going to the Finals, like, you don't know there's any difference in his demeanor, approach, effort, intensity, like all leadership, like all of that stuff. And it's led to 11 wins, like that's how decimated they've been. But I've got a lot of respect for the way he's carried himself this season.
- [33:34]
Bill Simmons
McConnell's another one, Nemhard. There's guys on that team that are still carrying themselves like they did last spring. And at some point they're going to have to take Pascal for a nice steak and explain to him that his calf needs some maintenance and he might need to take four to five weeks off that. The trainer was mildly concerned and it's just for the safety of everybody, we're just going to have to sit you for a little bit and get you ready for next year. We're almost there with the Pacers because this will be a miracle. You throw away one year, you get halberd back next year and you could potentially get a top.
- [34:07]
Tim Legler
Here's the thing. Here's the one thing I'll say about them.
- [34:09]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [34:11]
Tim Legler
You think about how quickly they immediately reemerge on the scene of relevant teams. As soon as they get Halliburton back, okay, they desperately need a five, and there's a list of them. There's eight or nine of them that are out there. Some are more interesting than others. Some I don't think you can get, but there's a list out there and you could pull it up just about anywhere. Of the number of centers that are like kind of at Least their names come up some. I think it's absolutely pipe dream. You're never going to get them. Some I wouldn't want. And then there's a few and you kind of go, man, if you can add that with giving up what they would have to give up to get it. And now next year you go in, we see Yakim and Halliburton and a five that fits your style, man, it's a. That's something I think that they're going to look hard at and I'll be very surprised actually if they don't make a move before the trading deadline to try to acquire one of those centers.
- [35:04]
Bill Simmons
So you think they would put their number one pick on the table?
- [35:07]
Tim Legler
I don't know if they'd put their number one pick. I think there's internal conversations that are probably taking place because that's beaut. That's, you know, beauty in the eye of the beholder. If you think that, for instance, you know those top three picks which a lot of people are talking about are absolute can't misses the Bonsa Peterson boozer. If you think all three of those guys are, man, these are franchise guys and we're going to be in that mix, you probably don't do that. If you think, hey man, there's a chance we don't even get into top three and we don't know that we love it after that. Even though I think it's a good draft class and I think there's going to be even diamonds in the rough found probably, you know, 15 through 25. It always is. They would. Does that young player like, does that serve them well? If that's going to take a few years for him to hit a stride when they were so close a year ago as opposed to. I'm not talking about picking up a 34 year old center. If you can get a guy about.
- [35:57]
Bill Simmons
Like Jaren Jackson, like we'll discuss Jaren Jackson, but we want your unprotected first.
- [36:02]
Tim Legler
Even a guy, even a guy like a, you know, a lower level, maybe a lower level, lower caliber player than that, like a Nick Claxton, like somebody like that, like that's young, that runs that, that you don't have to run plays for, that can defend, that will fit your style and pace because he's got stamina like a guy like that. If you're talking about giving up not the number one pick. If you're talking about giving up something else on your roster that they would be. It would be intriguing to them either because it could be a salary dump or it's a.
- [36:31]
Bill Simmons
Or you do a top five protected. Like we'll trade whatever and. But we need top five protection or you get our next year's thing. Yeah, we'll see. Because what I like about them and the Celtics losing their best guys but somehow keeping some sort of infrastructure what they had last year, the Celtics did it more successfully. But when you watch Indiana, like they don't stink like, like they might be overmatched some nights, but they, they do play like they did last year. So they have them 26. New Orleans, I have 25. They're 12 and 36. All these teams have 12 or 11 wins that we just rattled off. I want to flag New Orleans really quickly though, because I think they're a sneaky, important trade machine team. Not just because Zion. I think every team in the league probably has had a Zion meeting at this point. Let's just, let's just do a one hour. Bob. Bob is going to do a Zion presentation for us. We're going to go through the pros and cons like they're all doing it. Murphy, they've tried to make it seem like they wouldn't trade him. I refuse to believe that. I think they're playing it smartly, but if somebody's going to give them the Bainbridges offer, it would be irresponsible not to do it. But then they have Missy at 3.3. They have Sadiq Bay at 61 and 64 the next two years. They have Alvarado at 4 5. They have Looney at 8 expiring. They have some fun little levers to push for contenders. I look like Alvarado. There's five teams that he would just be fun on in the playoffs, right? You put him on the Pistons and he would just be like, I am rolling up my sleeves. Who are we fighting? You know, So I don't know what they're going to do, but I feel like we'll be hearing from them.
- [38:11]
Tim Legler
And Misi's also one of those guys on that short list of centers that would be intriguing for Indiana, right? And especially, you know, with Derek Queen there. You know, he obviously Misi becomes completely expendable in that situation. Here's the thing, like, I agree with you, what you said about Trey Murphy. I mean, look, I love him, but. But I don't know. You know, they, they. They want to make it seem like there's nothing that you can offer me that would get me. I don't know if I believe that. I know this like when it comes to Zion, like, and they seem like they, the stuff they put out there is like. No, no, we're, you know, we're committed to Zion. I, I don't know that I would be willing to give up anything to give him. I, I just, I, I'd be far too concerned to give up a lot of stuff of value for Zion Williamson with his track record and the, the part of his game that drives me nuts because he's such a unique force and talent entertaining as well. How's a guy get six rebounds a game? Let me explain.
- [39:01]
Bill Simmons
I love this, this is one of my corners. You can't get two rebounds a quarter.
- [39:06]
Tim Legler
Six rebounds a game when you're built like that, with that kind of athleticism. Yeah, there's one reason and one reason only. You don't go often enough. It's that simple. It's that simple. If and particularly for Zion Williamson, particularly look at his career, he had 2.7 offensive rebounds his first two seasons in the league. You know, obviously not a ton of games, but he's never been since then like over 2.5. To me, that's a guy that should be three and a half to four offensive rebounds a game. And if you watch him play, the reason it doesn't happen, Zion's that guy that if there's a shot by somebody else and he happens to be anywhere from the third hash up the lane to the fouling, you're 12 to 15ft from the rim. Very rarely design Williamson go. He starts immediately backpedaling. And it's so that it just tell you it's a mentality. Because the mentality is if I go and don't get it, damn, that's a long run to the other end of the floor. And that's the impression I get. As talented as he is and as just like unique in what he can do and how difficult he is to deal with when he's healthy and playing. Right. That has always bothered me. I've never understood. I think he is one of the most underachieving rebounders in the NBA. And it's, it's, it doesn't make sense to me because there's no way that guy should not be getting a ton of double digit rebounds games you made double digit rebounds games he's think about this double digit rebounds game now. Last two he's had 10 and 11 against San Antonio and Memphis. You have to go back to October 24th to find his last 10 rebound game. That's incredible to me. When you look at a Guy like Josh Hart. Right. It's like, that doesn't make any sense. And so it's just like that combined with the injury history, I'm just like, I don't know if I'd want any part of it.
- [41:02]
Bill Simmons
You also made the case why you would want a part of it. If you felt like you had a good team with a good coach and a good infrastructure and you could kind of shove him in the correct directions, that's how you talk yourself into this.
- [41:12]
Tim Legler
I got news for you. You could put him on any team in history with whatever direction you want. And if that guy doesn't want to run to the rim from 12ft when someone takes a corner, three, he ain't never going to like. That's not. That's not about infrastructure and leadership in the locker room and, like, doing accountability. That guy either wants to or he doesn't. And he has now played 240. Unbelievable Axel on 246 games in six years. It's kind of incredible. He's got 246 under his belt. And I don't recall really.
- [41:44]
Bill Simmons
He is who he is. Interesting. Well, if you cut. If you cut him. A mixtape of BJ Edgecomb and Hugo Gonzalez being in the corner, seeing somebody about to shoot and veering toward the rim at full speed to just see if they could get a hand on anything, maybe that. Maybe the light bulb would click for him. Hey, you could also do this. Watch how these guys just move because somebody else was shooting. They might be able to dunk it or get a reward.
- [42:10]
Tim Legler
Listen, I would.
- [42:11]
Bill Simmons
The ship has sailed.
- [42:12]
Tim Legler
I would pray for that day because of how much I've enjoyed watching Zion Williamson play when he's healthy. It's just a long track record of that one particular thing. You can be a real difference maker on the glass. It's a major, majorly important quality to bring to finishing off defensive possessions, to giving your team extra possessions on a given night. They're so critical to do those things on nights when maybe you don't shoot well or for him. I'm also thinking you get another two, three offensive rebounds some nights. That's. That's a guaranteed. Probably with his quickness off his feet, that's another, you know, four to six points. And plus some of those might be. And ones like, just from your own production, you could take your scoring Average up 5 points if you just wanted to go more. And so that's. That was. That's my big concern with Zion. His name's always going to come up because he's so intriguing and I just think we're six years in and I think, you know, when you're on a team that's got the worst record in the NBA and you've been out a lot again this year and the rebounding numbers are what they are, I think add all of that up. I don't know. I don't know.
- [43:17]
Bill Simmons
See, that's the case you just made is my case for why I'm not crazy about J.R. jackson. He's 5.7 rebounds a game.
- [43:24]
Tim Legler
Let's. You're 100%. I've said that on the air when I've called Memphis games. I haven't now I haven't called a New Orleans game this year for obvious reasons. But yeah, we did call a Memphis game and it's the same thing. I think the same way. Like why are his rebounding numbers not better? Now the one thing though, I will say this. He does do this. And this can cost him maybe some defensive rebounds.
- [43:49]
Bill Simmons
Challenging.
- [43:50]
Tim Legler
Exactly. Right. When you're last line of defense and you're trying to get most things at the rim, you are bypassing opportunities to rebound by doing that.
- [43:58]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, that's fair.
- [43:59]
Tim Legler
But here's the thing. A guy like Jaren Jackson and Zion, and I'm not sure if I watch the New Orleans game tomorrow night is Zion on the inside slot. Every, every opponent's free throw is Jaren Jackson. How does that not three a game.
- [44:12]
Bill Simmons
Westbrook figured that out 12 years ago.
- [44:15]
Tim Legler
Right there you're halfway to their current total.
- [44:17]
Bill Simmons
Like, right.
- [44:18]
Tim Legler
You know what I mean? It's like how does that, how does that not translate to. So I agree, Jared Jackson has always scratched my head. But the all around game, you know, the all around amount of energy he's expending defensively, I think I'll give him a little bit more of a pass than Zion.
- [44:33]
Bill Simmons
You know what I would say Tim Legler, some guys are just good at rebounding. Even when you play like pickup or when you played at high school or in your case college and the pros, some guys just have a knack for it. Josh Hart, he's 6 foot 3. He just goes and gets rebounds. He knows where they're going to go. Derek White's really good at it, weirdly as a guard, just can study the patterns. He has good instincts for it. Some guys just suck at it. Finishing the dregs, Utah 24 and Memphis 23 at 18 and 26. I just don't think it's going to happen for them. And we can move to the next group. This group is a one team group. It's called Panic Time. And I put Orlando in here at 22. Even though they have a winning record, their net rating is minus 0.6. Their last 25 games legs, they're 11 and 14. They're 25th in net rating. And I test wise, I have a real problem with this team. And we talked about, I don't want to throw Jamal Mosley under the bus, but we talked about some of the great coaches we've added. This is a team that to me does not look well coached. I don't know what they're doing. I don't understand it. I don't. I think the effort comes and goes. I, they just seem like the ball finds the wrong person at the wrong times in the wrong spots of the game. And I think they're incredibly frustrating to watch.
- [45:54]
Tim Legler
Here's what, here's what would, here's why I can't, I don't know if I can go with the coaching thing for this reason.
- [46:00]
Bill Simmons
Okay.
- [46:01]
Tim Legler
Last year and I didn't again, I haven't. I called an Orlando game this year to see my person is definitely different. For me as an analyst, I get, I pick up on a lot of stuff that I can't see when I'm watching on TV at home. But look, I mean they just lost four straight games by a total of 75 points, I believe. You know, Wagner's out again. They barely, him and Vaquero barely have had any chance to establish rhythm. But here's why the coaching thing would be bothersome to me if like that were true. Because last year I had as much respect for the way that that team competed and defended as anybody in the league. I mean when I watched the Magic play and I watched them and I called games where they only had one of their stars and they're going up against like teams that were like top five teams in the NBA and, and they're in position to win these games and in some cases did. And one particular stands out. When they broke Cleveland had that long winning streak mid season, like 15 games and they beat them in Cleveland on a Sunday ABC game.
- [46:59]
Bill Simmons
That's a good game. I remember that one.
- [47:01]
Tim Legler
Oh, it was incredible game. And they didn't, they, they, their want to was so impressive. And so when I see that in a team like I'm going to go ahead and most times and I'm going to give the coach credit in that situation right now, some of it maybe just internally, certain guys just play hard. They just show up, player great, you got the right guys in your building. But, you know, we can't just dismiss that if a team's playing hard, if we're going to beat up a coach when the team doesn't look like they're playing hard, if they are playing hard. I'm always going to give credit to the coach. He's establishing some sort of culture in there. His message is resonating with these guys to a certain extent. They're buying in. For them to play that hard a year ago.
- [47:40]
Bill Simmons
But can that fade away though?
- [47:42]
Tim Legler
I mean, it can, but it would be surprising to do that from one year to the next when they've had, you know, their top guys have missed as much time as they have. It's almost like a built in reason why it's a struggle some nights. But look, when you lose four games the way they just did and look to Memphis Charlotte right now, who could put up numbers on you and Cleveland could put up numbers. That's not. Those aren't like horrible, but it's, you know, it's a tough stretch, man. Three of those four were at home and you're not really in the game in the last six minutes.
- [48:11]
Bill Simmons
It's alarming. That's why, that's why I brought it.
- [48:14]
Tim Legler
Up and put them right.
- [48:16]
Bill Simmons
The only thing I could say is.
- [48:18]
Tim Legler
A good place to put them. I think that's a good, good way to sum it up. Like they put it this way, it's go time. Like if you're going to hit another gear, it's going to have to start now.
- [48:29]
Bill Simmons
But what's funny is I thought that was going to be like a week and a half ago. I was looking at their schedule. They were like, I don't know, 23 and 18 or something. It was like, okay, if we're going to hear from this team, it's going to start right around now. And it went the other way. Their best five is still plus 18 per 100, I guess is the one good thing about them. But I. They're almost like a take off the league pass team for me. Like I don't want them on a TV anymore. I don't like watching them and make me mad. All right, next category. Four teams. The play in Dreamers starting with Dallas, 19 and 27. I feel like they're better than 19 and 27, especially with the injury luck they've had. But on the right night, if you catch them, I feel like they can hang with just about anybody. I wanted to mention Max Christie, I think has Officially reached. You're insulting him if you don't mention him. When you recap the Luka trade and you just say Luka for a D, I think Christie's become a legitimate asset. He's 22. He's put together two months now where he's like 16 a game and like 45% from three. He can handle the ball. I thought he was coming on a little for the Lakers last year, but ironically has become a bigger asset for them than Anthony Davis. So just wanted to mention that that's.
- [49:43]
Tim Legler
The perfect context and perspective to put him in because you're 100% right. He was not even mentioned when that trade went down.
- [49:50]
Bill Simmons
No. It was like a set of steak knives.
- [49:53]
Tim Legler
No. No doubt. And I knew how much, how much JJ valued him because we had had conversations about him. Like, that was tough for him to part with him, but, you know, there was just so much focus on, you know, arguably, is this the worst trade in the history of team sports?
- [50:09]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [50:10]
Tim Legler
You know, he's going to get lost in all of that conversation, particularly AD went down right away. And look, it takes a, at the time, like a role player a little bit longer even to get comfortable when a trade like that happens because your touches are infrequent, like your shots. You're a little bit kind of feeling things out. And now you look at the way this guy's playing now and every night now, you're expecting him. You know, his, his floor now is like, you know, a double digit scoring night. And then like his average game is like 16. And then like his ceiling is now in the 20s.
- [50:42]
Bill Simmons
And he fits with Flag, which is the only thing that really, really matters here. He actually makes sense on a basketball court with Cooper Flag, which is all you're trying to find out.
- [50:50]
Tim Legler
Very true. And you're right, by the way. They're better than the record, I think a lot of it being this, like if, if Christie's playing this well from the very beginning, if Cooper Flag didn't have to take, you know, some time, you know, at 18 years old to try to, you know, figure out the league a little bit, they would be closer to.500 than they are right now. It's been a great story. And they play hard as hell every night.
- [51:11]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, they're annoying to play. You can just see it. You could see the other teams. The thing with Flag, like, he's not shooting the three well at all. I think he's 28%. But everything else, like, when you consider how young he is and he's at the same age Kobe was when Kobe came in and. Or maybe he's like six months old than Kobe. KG, when KG came in, LeBron, when LeBron came in, you just know this is the floor and it's a really good floor. Right?
- [51:35]
Tim Legler
He's so.
- [51:35]
Bill Simmons
This is the worst he's ever going to be right now.
- [51:39]
Tim Legler
That's a great point. And that's why I look, you know, I use the expression can't miss with him coming out. And I kind of felt so before he got to Duke, I'm like, no, no, this guy, like, because he's got a nasty competitive edge to him. Even though he's got like a, like that little boy smile on his face. Like he has a meanness to him and a toughness for being challenged for the last like five years on the high profile like youth circuit into Duke, like he was challenging, challenged. And every night he took the court, people were coming for him and he just wanted, you know, he wanted all of it. So I. You kind of knew. But man, is he better with the mid range pull ups and push shots. Yeah, in that 10 foot area. These really difficult shots and they go to him to decide games. It's kind of incredible really what he's been able to do in the fourth quarter of close games. So man, how much better will this guy be even in two months? It's incredible.
- [52:35]
Bill Simmons
Quick question. So they're 19 and 27. If they had Kyrie this whole year from game one, what's their record? How many, how many wins is he worth, you think?
- [52:46]
Tim Legler
Definitely over 500.
- [52:47]
Bill Simmons
I think they're. Honestly, I think they're like 30 and 16. Yeah, I think he was. I think he would have swung like 12 games.
- [52:54]
Tim Legler
Yeah, I mean, look, so you're talking about 11, 11 more wins than they have right now. Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, Kyrie's that great, but again he, you know, the end of.
- [53:02]
Bill Simmons
The game stuff he would have brings in. Yeah, I'm just saying, healthy Kyrie from game one with this exact roster, I just think he's exactly what they need. That's why I'm kind of hoping he comes back. Because if you put him in with everything I'm watching, I'm like, I'm kind of interested in this.
- [53:17]
Tim Legler
I'd probably take it as far as flipping the numbers. 19 and 27. 19, 27 and 19, that's probably where I would go.
- [53:23]
Bill Simmons
So Dallas 21. I have Atlanta at 20. I don't want to talk about them. I can't quit them every time I'M out. They have some sort of fun game. Forget it. 19 Portland. This is interesting. So they're 23 and 24. Their last 15. They're 10 and 5 where they beat Houston twice, San Antonio, the Lakers and Atlanta. They had this crazy buildup situation to start the year. Plus, Scoot Henderson got hurt. Holiday got hurt like three weeks in. I have no idea how they're 500 and I don't really know what I would do if I was their gm because you could argue they should be a seller. You could also argue, they say, like, I got an email from a reader, a listener named Dylan, who said ja to Portland. Why not? Why not Scoot and expirings, which they have the expirings Scoot thible and Rob Williams for ja. Like, why not? And I was sit and I was reading the email going, yeah, why not? Why not roll the dice, see what you have. Maybe you're a buyer. You could also go the other way and start selling. Selling off some players and trying to take. What would you do?
- [54:28]
Tim Legler
I mean, that sounds a little bit low for John Moran, but at the same time, his market value is just taking.
- [54:33]
Bill Simmons
Nobody wants him plunge.
- [54:35]
Tim Legler
And that's just like everything you're hearing is like, it's really becoming absolutely buyer's market. Because here's the thing. Even if you think, you know, man, we might not have to give up that much to get them, and you kind of come to terms that, like, we're not giving up anything. We really want to get John Rant, you then have to think about incorporating him into what you have going on with the players you do. Like, and what does that look like? And that's a whole nother conversation where with some of these guys, maybe it's injuries, right? But it's not like that. Like, how's he going to fit with these guys? How hard is he to coach, like, all of that stuff? Some guys are just like, injuries. Ah, do we? Do we, you know, roll the dice all.
- [55:14]
Bill Simmons
Is he going to like that it's abdi his team and not his and things like that.
- [55:18]
Tim Legler
Exactly. And look, if you're Portland now, some part of me would think, like, what have you got to lose? You know what I mean?
- [55:25]
Bill Simmons
That's kind of how I felt. On the one hand, there's a lot of red flags and it's, as you said, a buyer's market for Ja. On the other hand, he's 26. Like, you have a chance to get a guy who three years ago would have been like number seven in my trade value column, you're just stealing him. And he hasn't seems like relatively healthy. He keeps having these small injuries. Why not? I don't know. I think about it.
- [55:50]
Tim Legler
There's probably two or three teams in the league that I would put in a category of. I mean, come on, what the hell have you got to lose? When you really look at who they have and what ultimately their ceiling is, you kind of look at their roster. Portland's and Avid has been incredible. But this, this is, I mean, obvious. Not going to average 32 next year. Like, you know, I mean, he's playing great, and I actually think. I actually think the guy's got a great case to be an All Star with what he's done in there and you know, how well they've played for the last.
- [56:19]
Bill Simmons
He's definitely an all Star for me.
- [56:20]
Tim Legler
He's got to be. He's got to be. But it's funny, I, you know, just. I'm always constantly looking at how people view it, and I've kind of put mine out there on the. The All City podcast. I put my reserves out there and I gave him a spot. But it's. If you look around at where people are speculating, it's not like he probably has, like a guarantee. And I think he's pretty close.
- [56:37]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [56:38]
Tim Legler
26 and like, you know, because nobody watches Portland.
- [56:41]
Bill Simmons
Well, the other job team is number 18 on my list, the Chicago Bulls, who are 23 and 23. The only reason I mentioned them is they have expirings they could put together. You know, they. Maybe they could put Kobe White in it, but their style of play I actually would think would be pretty fun for him. You know, it's basically balls to the wall. They're going up and down. The ball's constantly moving. People are just attack, attack, attack. Billy Donovan.
- [57:08]
Tim Legler
I like that one a lot.
- [57:08]
Bill Simmons
I don't know. I don't mind that one.
- [57:10]
Tim Legler
No, I really like that one because again, there are limitations on their roster that are not going to change. You know what I mean? It's not like they've got that young guy that was a top five pick, you know, in the last couple of years that isn't ready now. But you're like, man, this is what we're going to be building around this franchise player. Now you're adding Ja to that. No, I wouldn't do that. That they don't have that. So that that team has like a finite ceiling. And so John Morant. Yeah. Now, you know, would Billy Donovan want that I don't know. I don't know, you know, if he'd want to.
- [57:44]
Bill Simmons
I mean, does he want to go 40 and 42 for the next nine years or like, at some point?
- [57:50]
Tim Legler
No, I hear you.
- [57:51]
Bill Simmons
I just want to take a swing somewhere.
- [57:53]
Tim Legler
Hey, listen, at least. And I was there the other night. I was in the building for the, you know, the Derrick Rose when they retired his jersey. I'm thinking to myself, if somebody's going to replicate some of those highlights, that's the guy. That's the guy.
- [58:05]
Bill Simmons
All right, one more break and then we're going to do the rest of the list. And now it's time for today's with the assist segment presented by State Farm. In basketball, the best players don't just go it alone. They lean on teammates, coaches, even fans to push them to be better. And we've seen some pretty iconic assists over the years. As a Celtics fan, probably the assist team I was the most afraid of was Magic Johnson and Kareem Abdul jabbar. In the 80s, especially as magic got better and better, Kareem got older and older. They had a little flip. When Magic came to the league, Kareem was probably the best player in the league or one of the best two or three. And then by the time we got to the mid-80s, Kareem was older. Magic was becoming one of the two or three best players in the league. But they still figured out how to work together. 1985 finals. Famously, Kareem just took over the Finals, killed the Celtics, wins the finals, mvp. Fourteen years after the first time he won. Two years later, they win again. Guess who wins? Magic Johnson. Like basketball, life is easier with great assists. Like the way those two guys helped each other. State Farm is here to dish one your way. They're not just an insurance company, they're a teammate who's on your bench ready to listen, assist and help you get the right coverage when it matters most. State Farm with the assistance. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Having insurance isn't the same as having State Farm. It's like expecting the leadership of a team captain on the football field, but getting a sea captain. Sure, they're both captains, but who's going to run your offense? You wouldn't settle for just anything for your team, so don't settle for just any insurance. When it comes to getting the help you need, State Farm is the real deal. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. This episode is brought to you by Firehouse Subs who just dropped a game changing sandwich. The French Dip Literally one of my favorite sandwiches slash subs. Roast beef, caramelized onions, melty cheese, little freshly toasted garlic butter roll and the warm savory au jus. I've been eating these forever since I lived on the east coast in la. I think to me this versus the cheesesteak, the French dip, no contest. Way better. And I think it's really because of the au jus. I don't know anybody who doesn't like au jus. An elite game day sub. Fun to order by the way if you want it delivered because they usually put the au jus in the special little container you can pour it on. Knock yourself out. The French dip here for a limited time. I wish it was longer. Only at Firehouse Subs Limited time at participating Firehouse subs restaurants while supplies last this episode is brought to you by the movie Shelter. Guys, the first great movie of 2026 is here. Shelter stars Jason Statham as a rogue agent in hiding who's forced to return to the field to protect an innocent girl from the shadowy kill squad he once worked for. This sounds like my kind of movie. Statham at the top of his game, unleashing vengeance and confronting the demons of his past. I'm still in. The twists and turns will keep you guessing. It all adds up to the most heart racing, pulse pounding thrill ride of the new year that truly deserves to be seen on the big screen. From Black Bear Pictures shelters in the theaters everywhere on January 30th. The fork in the rotors number 17, Golden State. Number 16, Miami. I would love to punt on talking about either of those teams. The biggest, if that's okay.
- [61:37]
Tim Legler
I'm totally fine with that. I talk especially about, yeah, I'm good with that.
- [61:43]
Bill Simmons
Number 15. I have not had enough to say. This group is called the wild card. The Charlotte Hornets, now 19 and 28. In their last 25, they're 13 and 12. They're best four guys with Diabate plus 26.5 per 100. It's been exciting to watch. Zach Lowe and I have been fighting about then since December. I had him on my podcast. We did league pass rankings. I had them sixth. He mocked me. He made fun of me. He said, what are you thinking? And I'm like, I'm buying whatever's going on there. I like that team. Lamelo came back and started to look like Lamelo and then this diabate piece. And now this team has. They have some real wins. They Went to the west coast and they had one of those west coast trips where it was like, wow, they could go.07. This could be a disaster. Fought through it, put a couple wins up. Their only stinker was a game you did last week. You probably saw their worst game of the last couple weeks, unfortunately. But give me your Charlotte thoughts.
- [62:42]
Tim Legler
Well, that's obviously where I was going to go first. So I'm the same everybody, my guilty pleasure. Bad team. That's the way I described them. And they started to become like a little bit more than like bad team. Like, you know, and I. But I liked watching them. They're fun. So here you go. They're on our national TV schedule. Couldn't wait.
- [62:58]
Bill Simmons
Charlotte party.
- [62:59]
Tim Legler
Wait. Somebody asked me when, you know, somebody asked me walking in the building, like, were you here last year to call a game? I said, the last time I was in this building, I think I was guarding Del Curry. I said, so I don't know, haven't been here. And actually, ironically, they announced that night at the game that Del Curry is going to have his jersey retired, which is very, very cool thing, but. So here we go. I'm excited. We all work. Breen, myself, Richard, we sit down, we're ready to do the game. We did a, we did a feature with Con Knippel before the game. Broke down. Some of his off ball movements and stuff. It's really, really exciting. And then they scored 32 points in the first half and, and I think LaMelo was 1 for 15 in the game, over 10 from the three.
- [63:43]
Bill Simmons
They just stunk.
- [63:44]
Tim Legler
Now look, they had a horrible night, but at same time it's like, okay, you didn't really show me anything. And I, you know, I don't think I had anything to do with national TV being in the building. I just don't think that's going to affect guys that much or anything. I don't know.
- [63:57]
Bill Simmons
I think that was a little bit. That was like their biggest game of the year. And they maybe a little. And they haven't looked like that for two months. That was usually the worst game they played.
- [64:05]
Tim Legler
During the coaches interview, Charles Lee walks out of the room and the last thing he said as he was walking out of the room, because we were like, he basically turned to us and was like, man, you know, I hope these guys are ready for it. Like, you know, like, this is a big night. Turns out they weren't. So I've obviously been watching the last three since and they're averaging like 125 a game in the last three games, which is what they were doing to everybody prior to that, their wins. They have this most. The strangest list of like, strong resume wins over the last month. Right. Smoked Oklahoma City. Killed Oklahoma City, beat the Lakers, like pretty easily. And all of a sudden, like, you're looking at this team like, man, this team is like, you better be ready to guard them.
- [64:45]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [64:46]
Tim Legler
And so look, I'm with you. I'm with you. And they've. They give them credit. They had that game and they turn right around and play three great games and put up numbers that. That told me more about them than the one bad game that we called.
- [64:59]
Bill Simmons
There's an eye test thing with them. The guys make sense together. When you're watching it, I. I mean, a canipo makes sense with anybody. I just think he would fit in with any lineup. But I also like Miller. I think Bridges has been good this year. Lamelo is the one I could never get there with. I talked to Ed Khan on the podcast a couple weeks ago and was just saying, like, this is the most fun I've had watching him. There's an arrogance in a good way about him sometimes, especially at the end of games. I used to say this long time ago about Carmelo, where he wasn't the best player in the league or one of the best players, but when he played LeBron and Wade, he thought he was on their level. And sometimes you need that. Paul Pierce was like that for Boston. He was like, oh, yeah. He thought he was as good as those guys. And that's all that matters. I think when Lamelo goes against these teams, like, he's like, finally my peers. Finally my peers. Shay, Gilgis, Alexander, meanwhile, Lamel's like, you know, never been even in round one of the playoffs. But he thinks that. And I think there's an energy and a confidence with them offensively.
- [66:01]
Tim Legler
Well, yeah. The thing is, even that night, by the way, if I'm giving full disclosure, that was the best individual big man defensive game I've seen all year. That Mobley played in that game and they still ended up getting it within six in the fourth quarter.
- [66:17]
Bill Simmons
Thought they were going to come back.
- [66:18]
Tim Legler
Yeah. Despite how poorly they played. Give them some credit. They were in the game. It's just one of the lowest scoring games you're going to see all year. And Mobley was unbelievable in the game, contributed to their offensive woes. But like I said, I care more about what they've done since then than just one night where they didn't play well.
- [66:35]
Bill Simmons
So would you do anything if you were them. We got trade deadline coming up, and they have a slew of picks and some good ones. Like, they have Golden State's pick this year. I think they have a top two from Dallas, top two protected, and 27 from Dallas. They have things to trade. I mean, the smart world would be like, let's just have a good time, enjoy this. Maybe we'll make the play in. But then I look around the east and you think, like, maybe they could just kind of move around the edges there and grab somebody, like, on a cheap price, some veteran shooter, like some sort of, like, stretch four that can guard some people. There's things they need.
- [67:13]
Tim Legler
They do and there's. Yeah, and they do. And even as well as they've played, as fun as they are, they're still like, obviously, because they've got 11 players, 23 and under.
- [67:23]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [67:24]
Tim Legler
Okay. There's a maturity thing with them sometimes. So you go, okay, well, that'll just come with time, maybe. But maybe we can expedite that by bringing in the right piece, a guy that's got a little bit more seasoning on him, that's maybe in his upper 20s, that can bring that to this group. So I would be looking if I were them. Yeah, I would be.
- [67:43]
Bill Simmons
I'm glad we agree. Next group is the enigma. This is one team, the Philadelphia 76ers, who are 24 and 21. And on Thursday night, they beat Houston in overtime. And it was the most impressive Eastern team performance I saw all season. Embiid was great. I thought Houston played well. And the size and speed of Philadelphia was alarming. And on my thread with Sal and House and Hench, where we always talk about NBA futures, I was like, do we have to start thinking about Sixers east futures? Because it was still pretty good price. And then all of them, like, come on, Embiid's gonna get hurt. And that's where we landed where it's like, we can't trust this. Cause we don't trust Embiid. Meanwhile, Embiid in his last 14 is 29 and 8. Yeah, but then you watched him on the Knicks on Saturday. Did you do that game or did you do the other game?
- [68:34]
Tim Legler
We didn't do. I didn't do the.
- [68:35]
Bill Simmons
Yesterday, you didn't do either. Okay, so Embiid in that game, and you saw the weakness they have is those energy. Like, the Knicks are like a pain in the ass. They rebound, they crash the boards. And that's, I think, what could sink the Sixers in a series. I Don't really understand the Embiid thing right now because when you watch him, it only seems like one of his legs work and he only occasionally has explosiveness, but he's getting all the shots that he wants and he seems relevant. He'll fall down once a game and you think the season's over and then he gets up. I don't really understand it, but it's way better than I thought. Where we were in October when we were thinking this was like Andrew Bynum. Right. So at least that's a win. What do you see from Philly? Do you. How high is your ceiling for them in the building?
- [69:19]
Tim Legler
You cannot dismiss their chances to make a legitimate run at the Eastern Conference. You can't.
- [69:24]
Bill Simmons
That's how I feel. I hate it, but I feel that way.
- [69:26]
Tim Legler
No. And I called like the week before that. I called back to back games. Philly, Cleveland. It was weird. I was there for, you know, Wednesday, Friday was the same matchup.
- [69:34]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [69:35]
Tim Legler
And it's funny, we're talking about his jumping, his lack of explosiveness, and I've been kind of talking about that. But to see it in person. He had an offensive rebound in that game. He got it. He was right under the rim. He got it. And like, you know, go back a few years healthy and beat MVP Embiid, he's probably gonna gather like, swing his shoulders a little bit, go up and just dunk on whoever's in front of him.
- [69:56]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [69:57]
Tim Legler
He bent his knees and he went to jump. And I called it a toddler jump, you know, Cause like I have a four year old and when he was learning how to jump, when he was like two, you know, he'd bend his knees and he'd go to jump, but he wouldn't leave the ground at all. It was just like nailed to the floor. Floor. And it was the weirdest thing. He literally tried to jump and he only got as high as his tiptoes and it. Mobley blocked it and they went the other way. And I was like, man, man. And even on the defensive end, like those incredible plays where he covers block to block to get a shot at the rim or trail a guard all the way to the rim that turned a corner on him and smack it off the glass. Like those are rare to non existent now. And yet he's putting up the numbers you're talking about because his shooting touch defies everything I know about like, you know, biomechanics. There's no way a dude that big should have that kind of a shooting touch. He's that talented of a shot maker. He's always going to put up numbers if he gets touches and plays minutes. So he's giving them that. Now, that other part.
- [70:57]
Bill Simmons
Wait, can I stop you on that for one second?
- [70:59]
Tim Legler
Yeah.
- [70:59]
Bill Simmons
I'm trying to think of somebody who. Somebody else who came into the league as one thing and 10 years later is a completely different thing, right? He comes into the league and he's just like, oh, my God, this is one of the great big man athletes we've ever seen. This is like. This looks like young Shaq. Almost like, holy shit, where's this going? And then 12 years later, he's on one leg and makes every shot he takes, it seems like. And all of them don't even hit the rim. And it's like, how did we. How did this guy emerge from what I remember from, like, the Kansas season and all that stuff? It's just, I think, a bizarre evolution. I don't remember anything like it.
- [71:36]
Tim Legler
It's. No, it's incredible. Look, I'll put it this way. It's nuts because on one hand, we're always constantly scrutinizing his injuries and all that stuff over the last few years. At the same time, I am marveling at his ability to put up those kind of numbers when he's got that level of physical limitation and he's that far from what he was and still being able. Because some guys. Derrick Rose is a great example of this. I just was talking about the other night. Cause I'm like, Derrick Rose, think about all he lost athletically. He came back and he was actually pretty productive. He had some decent years as a totally different shooter, but he wasn't putting up those numbers.
- [72:10]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [72:10]
Tim Legler
Like, Embiid is putting up close to the same scoring numbers he did when he was an MVP. And he's playing under, like, playing like, 27 minutes a game. And he's doing that because he's that good. When you pair that with the backcourt, Paul George, they've got other pieces. Like, they just got Uber back. They've got, you know, McCain. I don't know what's going to happen for him this year, but that's maybe for next year.
- [72:31]
Bill Simmons
But, like, he's a trade piece. They combo if they want to trade.
- [72:35]
Tim Legler
Something so hard defensively. I was so impressed with him when I was in Philly. You cannot dismiss this team's chances to make a real run at the whole conference. Yeah, they're going to be middling. Until then, they're going to be up and down. It's funny because you look up, I'm like, looking at their schedule, so they were 24 and 21. And I'm sorry, they were. They were 16 and 11. You're like, okay, that's pretty good. Now they've gone 8 and 10 cents. It's like, but. But they're capable at any given night of looking like, oh, my God, how can we forget about this team? So that's kind of where they're at.
- [73:06]
Bill Simmons
I texted my buddy, house size and speed, that's what they have, which I don't think anyone else in the east has that combo. And I don't know if it's sustainable. And Embiid might get hurt tomorrow. You mentioned the limitations. I remember Duncan in probably around 201112 range, one of his legs just stopped working, basically. And you could see it when you went to the games. He was basically on one leg, but he was so good and his footwork was so good and he was so smart. It just didn't really matter. And he just picked his spots. But one of his legs didn't work. And when I watch him beat it, I'm like, one of his legs doesn't work. I don't. He can't push off it. I don't understand how he's getting to his spots. I don't understand how teams aren't using this against him, but he's making it work. I'm taking them seriously, especially because of the maxi Edgecomb. I think at home in a playoff series, that team's going to be a nightmare because that crowd loves those guys, you know, and there's an energy in the building. And if they get anything from Embiid, who knows? All right, lingering Lakers, Toronto, Phoenix. We've talked about all of these teams just quickly on the Lakers. And I'm sorry for the Toronto and Phoenix fans who are probably like, oh, you skipped over our teams. We've talked about them in the past. I don't think. I don't see any scenario where the Lakers get out of round one of the playoffs. And yet they're 28 and 17 and they have Luka, who's one of the best five guys in the league, and they have LeBron, who's looked pretty good lately, and they have a lineup that seems to make more sense than it did. And they might even be able to make a trade or two because they have some expirings. And I don't take them seriously at all because I don't think they're going to be able to get stops but they have a way of just stealing six minute stretches of these games where they just all of a sudden they were down 8 and then they're up 10. You know, you kind of don't even know what happened. There's no team in the league like this. I also hate the Lakers. I'm just, I'll freely admit it's my least favorite team. So I'm rooting against them. And I'm probably not the best objective observer. What do you see when you watch this team?
- [75:09]
Tim Legler
Well, I just eat. Their defense is so bad at times, it's hard for me to wrap my head around like taking them really seriously like to potentially win the west, which you would think a team with Luca and LeBron and even a healthy Austin Reeves, you think they should be in that mix just based on those names alone. It's hard for me to get to that point because of how their defense looks for stretches of games. Having said that, the only two teams in the Western Conference that I would say like definitively now and going forward, like they're not beating these two teams in a seven game series or Oklahoma City and Denver. Now would I put money on them beating San Antonio or Houston or Minnesota? I probably wouldn't want to risk. I'm not a gambler anyway, but I probably wouldn't want to risk my money on that. But would I dismiss their chances of being able to do that with like Luca on your team and how good he can be in playoff series and what we've seen him do historically on nights when he's damn near one games by himself. I can't just. And look, it's not because it's not like San Antonio's really young. They haven't gone through any of this. Houston I like a lot, but they haven't had as good a year as I thought they would, as consistently dominant as I thought they could be. And then Minnesota, you say the same thing about especially the stretch they're in right now. So like I'm just saying, like you said, there's no way you can envision a scenario where they get out of the first round. I wouldn't go that far, depending on what that 4, 5 or 6, 3 matchup looked like if they get into that. But I don't think they could be Denver or Oklahoma City if they played them right out of the gate. And I don't think that's going to happen. I guess conceivably they could end up with Denver in the first round. I guess that's possible. But more Likely they get a team like Houston or to get a team like Minnesota.
- [77:02]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, the thing that scares me about them, when they want to get like eight minutes of pretty good shots, they seem to be able to do that. And LeBron, who. I don't, I don't think LeBron has a first step anymore in the same way in the half court. But coming off a rebound or coming off pace, he still can do the old LeBron. Go 60ft and you can't stay in front of him and he's going to get a layup and then he's obviously great in the half court, even though I don't think he's the same player anymore. Smart. They're relying on a lot, which would make me nervous. And I think they're losing Ayton once and for all. I just think the confidence in him is fading to the point that you're going to lose him as an asset pretty soon. And they probably already have. So whether they can put him in a trade or whatever, I just think the ship has sailed for him with them. But, but I mean to get, to get the athleticism they're getting from LeBron at this age, it's pretty good. I don't think they'll be able to get stops and I think they're going to lose in round one to whoever they play. But maybe I'll be wrong.
- [78:04]
Tim Legler
I think my strongest argument for them potentially, potentially being able to beat one of the teams I mentioned. That's why I wouldn't rule it out Luka tonight against Chicago. Like that was Luka to me at his absolute peak in Dallas where he was less, you know, and it's never going to be non existent. Less of the distracting stuff with the officials, less of the constant body language that just to me is just like not, you know, doesn't demonstrate enough leadership. He wasn't doing it as much the other night. And there's some of the passes he threw in that game, by the way, chips in 46 points as well. But some of the passes he threw in that game and the way that the Bulls had absolutely no chance to stop this guy in the half court, that reminded me a lot of him at his absolute best in Dallas. And that's why I'm saying he's capable of doing stuff like that. And if that's one or two games in a seven game series, that's enough to potentially shift the series.
- [78:59]
Bill Simmons
Well, that's why, as I said, I don't see any scenario where they get out of round one. I also Wouldn't bet against them. I'm just like the Luca that game he had the other night. It's just like the ceiling's off in Aldura. The ceiling and the floor is off. I don't know what to expect from them. If he just decides to do that for two months. What are we going to do? Clippers number 10. They're officially the sleeper even though they are still under 500. We talked about them already. The only thing I wanted to mention was five weeks ago we were terrified that OKC was going to go 75 and 7 and that the Clippers were going to give them a top three pick. And now times have changed. So anyway, Zach did a good job of breaking them down with Mo in his podcast. But the five out thing that they could do now I think is the biggest thing I've noticed that they have looks now. I don't think they knew what the hell they were those first four weeks and Kawhi wasn't really back and fully Kawhi and it was just kind of the James Hardage. It was awful. Now they have different things they can do. They got some young guys off the bench now and they're just, they have a little bit more of a defensive identity. They figured out how to use Collins. I think they're good. I'm taking them seriously.
- [80:08]
Tim Legler
You have to.
- [80:09]
Bill Simmons
I'm taking them more seriously than the Lakers.
- [80:11]
Tim Legler
What's crazy is. What's crazy is like this is how buried they were. They've won 15 out of 18 and they're still six games away from getting out, like to catch the six seeds. So, you know, can you make up, can they make up six additional games on a team like Minnesota or a team like the Lakers? Like, can you make up six, seven games on those teams with 30 something to go? Probably not. So you're talking about most likely going to be like, you know, a high seeded playing team A7 or something like that's the route they're going to have to take even if they continue to play out of their minds because that's just a lot of ground to make up on other teams that are pretty good teams. I don't know, they can do that.
- [80:48]
Bill Simmons
So that's a horror show matchup for the one seed. You'd be like, oh cool, we're the one seed, we get to play now. We don't know if Kawhi's going to be healthy in two months, but who knows? Next group is lurking and this is just Cleveland and New York. Cleveland's 28 and 20. New York is 27. 18. Cleveland last 15 games, 11 and 4. You saw him in person. You saw an awesome Mobley game in general. I never really gave up on this team because it wasn't like they could make a trade. They were so hampered by the apron. It wasn't like. It's kind of like this is your team. So you have 82 games to figure this out. You have a lot of talent. Are you going to figure it out? They look better than it did. I want to mention they have a five game west trip coming and I think this is. We'll know when they go on this trip if they're going to start to look like the 16 game win streak team from last year. The wet going on the west coast and being on the road and being together like this is usually when it comes together. So I'm monitoring that trip.
- [81:44]
Tim Legler
It's. It's. They absolutely are starting to come together. Yeah, I've been scratching my head all year about this team that last year was unstoppable most nights offensively and also really good defensively a lot of nights. But they were. Their offense was literally. They hit you with an onslaught of offense that you couldn't recover from last year and it wasn't a lot of that this year. You know, Garland's been hurt and took him some time to come back and DeAndre Hunter just hasn't shot the ball well all year so. And you know, Merrill now out they haven't had streuss. There's like a lot of reasons, a lot of different lineups. All these teams deal with it. They've had a lot of it. They're starting to convince me more here like, okay, like they're getting it together. Not fully like, okay, there you go. Now we're good to go the rest of the year. But definitely a better product than you were seeing over the first couple of months.
- [82:35]
Bill Simmons
A modern them, the Knicks. This goes back to our regular season versus playoffs discussion. They're 6 and 9 in their last 15. Catch them on the wrong night, they look awful. I still think when we get to the playoffs it'll be a different story. The towns. The Towns piece is worth monitoring because I. It's weird that his offense went backwards and he seems to be a little bit of a lightning rod these days. But we've already talked about the Knicks in this pod. All right. Second to last group is the contenders. I still have Houston as a legitimate contender. So I have seven teams left. Houston, Boston, San Antonio, Minnesota, Detroit, Denver and okc, are you good with that as a final seven here or is there a team that. Would you put Cleveland or New York in that final seven?
- [83:20]
Tim Legler
Give me that, give me that seven again.
- [83:22]
Bill Simmons
Houston, Boston, San Antonio, Minnesota, Detroit, Denver and okc. Would you have jumped Cleveland or New York over any of those teams?
- [83:33]
Tim Legler
Man, it's tough right now because it's.
- [83:35]
Bill Simmons
Like, sounds like you're down on Houston a little bit.
- [83:37]
Tim Legler
Well, I was. I actually punished them severely when they lost to the Kings. I punished them. I banished them to 10th on my, like, my like rankings in the west alone.
- [83:48]
Bill Simmons
I was like, no, no, no.
- [83:50]
Tim Legler
And I didn't obviously fully buy into that, but I was like, this was at a time when the Kings were losing by 30 to everybody.
- [83:56]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [83:57]
Tim Legler
And then they get them and losing that game. I was like, are you kidding? And everybody played. Everybody played. It wasn't like they sat guys. Everyone was there. They were trying to win the game and they got beat by the Kings. I punished them. That was just a temporary thing. Obviously they're at it.
- [84:15]
Bill Simmons
They're at a solitary confinement.
- [84:16]
Tim Legler
They're out of solitary. They're back. They're back out. Yes, they're back out in the yard. Yeah. You know, I'm letting them out, but obviously they've got the talent and they've got the talent on both ends of the floor that. Yes. They have to be still considered in the mix. You know, some of the, some of Minnesota is just kind of like, man, like, you know, you're asking me at a time when they're, when they're playing the way they're playing now, like I'm kind of going, yeah, I mean, I guess you'd have to put almost New York and Cleveland kind of in that.
- [84:42]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, it might be a nine person contender group.
- [84:46]
Tim Legler
Yeah, I'm not, I'm not. I'm not ready to. I think of the two between the Knicks and the Cavs, I'd probably be more likely to go with the knicks, but it's six, one half dozen the other, honestly.
- [84:57]
Bill Simmons
So Houston number seven. They still have a. They're still plus 6.2 per 100, which is fourth in the league. There's still 12 games under five over.500. The thing that's weird with this team. So you would think KD and Sengun and Jabari and Reed shepherd and Amen Thompson, you'd think that's. That's my five. If I'm going to do anything in the playoffs, kd Sengun, Jabari, Reed, Amend, Thompson, those are going to be My five that gives me the most flexibility. I can put Reed in the corner, he can run fast breaks. I have scoring, I have size. I can kind of hide Reed on the worst player on the other team. Thompson can guard everybody. That's minus 2.2 this season. Those five guys together and it kind of matches watching their games and wondering why when those guys play together, why it's not better. And I don't know what is missing with those five. So what do you think? Kd Shangun, Jabari Reed, Amen Thompson, why isn't that a kick ass 5? What am I missing?
- [86:02]
Tim Legler
Yeah, well, I think that it's always more of a. Even more so than I think that not five. Two things. I think that, that they have shown me that like this is why I'm not fully bought in. I do think their offense can be stagnant and stale sometimes.
- [86:16]
Bill Simmons
No question it's not.
- [86:17]
Tim Legler
They're not making teams guard them. They're making it easy to be guarded. And I think there's more there that they could do with with just motions and movements and cuts and like weak side action taking place. Multiple actions at the same time at different sides of the floor. They're very predicated on get the ball in the hands of KD or Shangun and they're just going to play out of that and see what happens. And I think they make themselves easier to guard than they have to. The other thing, and I said this last week, I think there's the most. One of the most untapped weapons in this league is Amin Thompson in the post. I don't know why they haven't really. He never goes down there.
- [87:00]
Bill Simmons
I would throw in him on the post. But then also when they spread out their team and he just tries to beat people one on one, I always feel like he's getting a layup. I'm with you. Like he's. He's some sort of force and I don't know what. Maybe they don't know how to harness it.
- [87:14]
Tim Legler
But even in the. And I agree with you in the one on one stuff but even then you can kind of, at least you can kind of back up. Dare him to take a pull up 15 footer with a hand in his face.
- [87:22]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, good point.
- [87:23]
Tim Legler
When he posts up the rare times that he does. But I'm thinking of potentially viewing this. He's so quick off his feet.
- [87:32]
Bill Simmons
He is slithering.
- [87:33]
Tim Legler
Incredible athlete down there and he's a good passer. So if you, if you put him in a one on one situation, you know, do you want to leave Reed Shepherd? Do you want to leave Kevin Durant?
- [87:44]
Bill Simmons
Right?
- [87:44]
Tim Legler
Like, do you want to rotate off those guys to even Shangoon? Like do you want to leave those guys to go double Ahmed Thompson post? That's tough call and I just think he could Jabari in the corner, he could just learn how to go 2, 3 dribbles with a guy on his back and like the different spins he could get into because he's so lightning quick off his feet. It would put a lot of pressure on defense. Try to figure out I'm not, you know, run your offense that way but why you can't do that. Five, six possessions a game. Four, four possessions a game, one a quarter even. They don't ever do it. And I think that would be something I would look at the team and go wow, that's that's a nice other option to go to for a stretch of a game if Durant's getting a blow. Let's see how teams guard that. That's a tough matchup for guys that that spot have to guard him. They're smaller and they're not nearly as quick as him. And so I just think it's something.
- [88:30]
Bill Simmons
That I love that that's really smart. Yeah, they, it doesn't feel like they've fully understood how to use him but that it's what's funny is nobody posts up anymore, right?
- [88:41]
Tim Legler
That's very true.
- [88:42]
Bill Simmons
But I always feel like except for wings.
- [88:45]
Tim Legler
True wings and point guards do, but big guys don't.
- [88:48]
Bill Simmons
True like Peyton Pritchard's posting it. I'm always for anything that makes the defense panic and I think if you spread things around with him that would actually work. But I haven't given up on Houston. I think we'll be hearing from them. Adams seems like he's going to be out for a while. Adams is one of those guys that seems like he gets hurt every year though, so I'm not. I'm not sure. I'm sure that's why they got compelled.
- [89:11]
Tim Legler
Such a difference maker too.
- [89:13]
Bill Simmons
This episode is brought to you by TaxAct. Like an expert coach, TaxAct offers step by step guidance and guaranteed accuracy when filing taxes. Get tips along the way. Add expert assist to talk to tax experts and let our experts do your taxes for you with expert Full Service Tax act helps you find the deductions and credits you deserve so you can get them over with. Visit taxact.com to learn more. Conditions apply. See taxact.com for details. This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card One of the most useful things in my life lately has been my Apple Card. Great for game nights, vacations, just life in general. And applying was so easy and quick. You can apply see your credit limit offer and if approved you could start using your card in minutes. Do it while watching a basketball game. You could start making purchases with Apple Pay before halftime even rolls around. I also love how I can get up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase. That's more daily cash to use for game tickets. I feel like I scored big time when I started using Apple Card. Apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone. Start using it right away with Apple Pay. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City branch terms and more@applecard.com Number six, Boston. We don't have to talk about them. Number five San Antonio. I feel like we've talked about them a bunch. Number four Minnesota 28, 19, 8 and 7. Their last 15. Also some terrible stuff going on in the city, which I'm sure isn't. You know, when you're trying to play basketball and stay focused on stuff, having your city falling apart around you probably isn't awesome. I'm not giving up on this team either. I do worry about them in the playoffs when they're up five with a minute left and these teams that they're playing are just like, let's go get the ball. They don't have a point guard and they're just, and they just get attacked and it's like watching a football team under attack in the like a two minute drill. And all of a sudden it seems like they can't dribble the ball over half court. And I don't know how they fix that. How do they fix it?
- [91:16]
Tim Legler
That's personnel dictates. They really can't unless they make a change in personnel. They can't. And it's, that's one of the reasons that I like, they're off. They're, they're, they're so difficult to come to a full evaluation of because they can be so good defensively some nights and obviously Anthony Edwards can, can just be too good for some defenses some nights. But that's just so much to put on his plate right all the time, every night. Like he. Not because he's such an explosive, talented scorer and he's gotten better at reading defenses and getting the ball out of traffic and all of that. But that's just so much to put on a guy that should just be raw. Go attack like all the time. Without having to think that way. But I think he has to because they don't have the personnel to really do that around him. And I think it is a hole with their team that hasn't really been filled.
- [92:05]
Bill Simmons
I think you and I both value the point guard position. You know what's nice? Sometimes a point guard, a guy who can dribble, who's looking around and be like, hey, he hasn't had a shot in a while. Hey, we have a fast break rebound. I'll run the fast break and get somebody a layup. It's nice to have one every once in a while. That's why I value Reed Shepard.
- [92:22]
Tim Legler
I cruise by a pickup game and I just take a look and I see a guy running the show that way, you know.
- [92:26]
Bill Simmons
Yeah. And it gives you a little hop.
- [92:27]
Tim Legler
In yourself, 45 year old, you know, weekend warrior guy. But he knows how to run a team. There you go. Just give him a shout out through the window.
- [92:35]
Bill Simmons
Well, that's why when I watch Reed Shepherd, I'm like, I feel like it's in there with him. I could see him like running a team. Like we talked in the past podcast.
- [92:43]
Tim Legler
He reminds me of a little Mark Price.
- [92:45]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, there's some Mark Price stuff.
- [92:46]
Tim Legler
More athletic Mark Price. That's kind of what he reminds me of. The year he's had, the year that he's had. Because it was, it was a lot of scrutiny on him. And early on you weren't sure, like, oh man, which way is this going to go? He has really stepped up and he's on the court, as you already mentioned, he's on the court a lot when they need him.
- [93:06]
Bill Simmons
He reminds me of my guy Drake May a little bit like silent assassin. Doesn't really talk that much. Sneaky, competitive, just ready to fight. I just wanted to bring Drake man in the podcast. Number three, Minnesota. We'll see. I don't know how they could make a trade with how handicapped they are by the roster, but I think that point guards, even though I have them fourth, I because I'm almost projecting some sort of move. If this is the roster in May, they're dropping out of the top seven. Detroit, number three. We talked about them a little bit already. My only thing with him, one shooter short, 27th and three point attempts, 17th and three point percentage. And I feel like so much is on Cade at the end of these games. I the Levert thing, which I didn't like when they did it and it doesn't seem like it's worked and he's 14 million this year and 14 million next year. They have all their picks. Feels like that's the move. Something with Levert and a pick and just try to get somebody who's more reliable. They could go nuts and try to do Troy Murphy. I don't know if, if I'm New Orleans, I'm not trading for all Detroit's picks because they're going to be good for the next five years. But there's a move, right? There's something. Could it be Klay Thompson for Lavert? I don't know. There's some sort of veteran shooter that I want to trust in the last five minutes of a game that will give them space.
- [94:27]
Tim Legler
I don't know like that. I think that's the, that's the only thing I see one thing that I've been. Is their three point shooting. Like that's, that's a legitimate thing. Like they're, you know to think that there's going to be nights in playoff series when they make eight threes and the other team makes 15.
- [94:45]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, right.
- [94:46]
Tim Legler
That's. That's tough to overcome that with. I don't care how good your mid range is and you get to the line, you could score in the paint at some nights it's going to require you to make 12, 15, maybe 18 threes in a game. And they, that's the one thing about the team. But, but when I start to think about that, what I counter that with is their ability to show up with this absolute focused business like approach and the fact that they've lost I think two games in a row, three times all year, never more than that. They always come back when you think that they're like okay, look at Detroit. They run off five in a row again. They've been doing it all year. I just love how serious they are. They're. They're tough. They're gonna, they're gonna come at you. They wanna fight in an alley when the game starts that they're ready for that and they've got a star that you can't speed up. He plays how he wants to play under the most pressurized moments. But the shooting is a thing and it's, it's. We'll see if that ends up costing them at some point down the road.
- [95:51]
Bill Simmons
Friday night I watched a bunch of basketball, including Denver. I'm sorry, Detroit versus Houston. Those are probably the top two seeds in the these guys might fight tournament. When you're. And they were together and it was like there's actually might be a fight in this game and there was a couple times it was brewing and even in the fourth quarter there was a couple like guys had to get separated. But Detroit's ready to roll. That's why I want them to get a shooter. But I would also love to see them get one more, one more chest out guy. Cause I think that's a real asset for them. They're a real hard team for the Celtics because they're so physical and they're so tough. And the Celtics, you know, it's a younger team. They don't have a ton of size. And you put somebody like Stewart out there and he's, you know, moving bodies is intimidating. And Duran too, who I think I just went, he's my most improved guy this year. I'm voting for him.
- [96:43]
Tim Legler
I'm just telling you now, it's a great call. He has to be an All Star. And I love the point you're making about the toughness because you don't rarely see teams this young that are this tough. Typically those are teams that got like a bunch of veterans sprinkled in there. It's a group of young guys that all have the same look on their face. And I just, I don't know, I mean, I'm just so impressed. And they give. Give JB all the credit in the world, man. He did a great job in Cleveland too. And he just, you know, I'm glad that he ended up in a place where he could go win right away. You know, some of those guys, they win, then they get fired and then they got to go to their next job is a 20 win team. And you don't know if it's ever going to turn out for him. To go to a place that was a bad team but had a lot of talent to turn it around. Where both he and Kenny Atkinson ended up in good places is two of my favorite guys. So I'm happy for both of them.
- [97:29]
Bill Simmons
You know what's funny about that team? Because this happened in the Houston game. Jabari Smith almost got into it. And the Pistons have a couple guys on their team that are. We have to get this guy out of the situation. Guys where you can see the other team, the other teammates are like, oh shit, we gotta get Ron Holland out of here now something's going to happen. And they have like Isaiah Stewart's like that. They have like three of those guys. There was like, oh shit.
- [97:55]
Tim Legler
They've like, they've like hired extra coaches on staff and that's all they got from some nightclub. And they know how to get out there quickly and separate people.
- [98:05]
Bill Simmons
Just. You got to do it. All right. The favorites, I think Detroit, if that's my gun to the head team in the East, I would pick them because I think they have a trade to make right now. If I. Who's going to win the East, I'm projecting whatever trade it is. But I really like that team. They're going to have home court, and I just think that. I think it's all lined up for them. They have a top seven guy now. If they don't add another piece, I get more worried because I think there's the sameness to how they play that I think you get used to in a series. I'm just assuming they're going to get somebody.
- [98:36]
Tim Legler
So this. This massive, massive X factor hanging over the Eastern Conference with Jason Tatum possibly being injected into, like, a playoff run by the Celtics.
- [98:47]
Bill Simmons
I don't even want to talk about that.
- [98:48]
Tim Legler
Okay, so. So, like, there's that hanging out there. So, like, as good as it looks for Detroit, now we know things could. Listen if he doesn't say he didn't even play and Boston somehow makes it to the conference finals. I mean, that's one of the great coaching jobs and, like, stories like we've seen in a long, long time in this league. But if he comes back and none of these other.
- [99:07]
Bill Simmons
Well, he's coming. He's coming back. The question is, how good is he going to be? Yeah, we will see him again.
- [99:12]
Tim Legler
Yeah, he's going to play. I agree.
- [99:15]
Bill Simmons
I'm going to write down every week who I think is going to come out of the East. And I bet it changes every week. This week I'm picking Detroit. Next week, it'll be another pick. All right, the favorites, we'll go through these quickly. Denver, number two. I used to have OKC as the sole favorite. I have now moved Denver into that group together partly because this. This no Joker run was so important for their young guys. I mean, Watson in January is averaging 23 and 6 a game, 50%, 49 from 3. Like, this is whatever happens when Joker comes back, the fact that they know that they have what they got from Watson and Pickett, even a little Najee, I just think you can't put a price on that. Like, this is the most important thing that could have happened to them. Them surviving without the best guy in the league is crazy. I never ever in a million years would have predicted it. The other thing would be Gordon's hammies. We'll see what happens with them.
- [100:08]
Tim Legler
You know, Real quick on Watson, like the, you know, because this has been a big conversation obviously for like a month. Yeah, well played. But, you know, I'm being realistic about all of it, saying, okay, get everybody back out there. Aaron Gordon, Christian Brown, Jokic. He doesn't go back to what he was. Okay, so he's more than that now. But at the same time, there's only so many opportunities in a given night when you add all those guys to the mix. Right. So his numbers are going to obviously take a big hit. But here's what they did find. They found this because this, they're going to need this. There's going to be nights in big games where now maybe, you know, somebody's hurt or foul trouble or he just gets it going when he's now capable.
- [100:51]
Bill Simmons
He's an X Factor.
- [100:52]
Tim Legler
A 20 point playoff game.
- [100:54]
Bill Simmons
Right.
- [100:54]
Tim Legler
And this was a guy that was like, he almost became robotic to me in like his decision making was all about, I'm just going to guard because I don't, I don't offense. I don't even, I don't even factor offensively for this team. I didn't know what he was offensive. I'm like, me neither defender. He's gone from that to a guy now that I think is going to be a turning point in games for the Nuggets.
- [101:15]
Bill Simmons
I agree.
- [101:15]
Tim Legler
In the playoffs. It's crazy.
- [101:17]
Bill Simmons
Well, you know, it's funny. They also have Tim Hardaway, who I think once around we'll probably have a good half where he'll be like Tim Hardaway said, four threes in the first half.
- [101:27]
Tim Legler
Yeah, that's all it takes.
- [101:28]
Bill Simmons
They have wild cards that last year you think like DeAndre Jordan was playing in playoff games for them and they, they had their finger fingers crossed every minute. Joker. What I personally, they would be my gun to the head pick right now. And I don't think that's going to change over the course of the next couple weeks because I just, I just think they're. I, I can't imagine Jokic is only going to win one title. I keep coming back to that. So they have this. The best supporting cast he's ever had. This is the best Murray's ever looked. Is Cam Johnson going to be healthy ever? I don't know. That's an X factor too. Like, it'd be nice if he could just play basketball, but for the most part, when they, if they can get everybody back in April, this team's a monster. And then okc is the other one. They're 30 and 7 and 10 now they're 12 and 8 in their last 20. And j dub and Hartenstein have only played half the season. I don't really know how worried you should be here. I guess the only things that would worry me are the three point shooting, which has been bad, and the fact that they don't get offensive rebounds at all. So when the three point shooting goes away and the league's better and it feels like you can get them late now, like they're losing like a couple two point games that I just don't feel like they were losing the same way last year. What else are you seeing?
- [102:48]
Tim Legler
Yeah, they've had three of those type of losses in the last three weeks and that wasn't the case like a year ago. Here's what's happened with Oklahoma City, and it's the best thing that could have happened really to the league, you know, is they went from an inevitability of repeating.
- [103:06]
Bill Simmons
Yeah.
- [103:06]
Tim Legler
Which is what it looked like to me.
- [103:07]
Bill Simmons
Yes.
- [103:08]
Tim Legler
I was just like, we're going to, we're going to go ahead and play this out, but what's the point? I mean, you know, and I know they got taken to seven games twice last year, but the fact that they had this strange off season because they were champions, bunch of young guys, they come in, everybody gets paid. Like, and that didn't. That there wasn't even a blip on the radar for them. They roll out to 24 and one to start the year. I'm like, forget it, man. Like, how are you supposed to deal with this team? And again, defensive numbers off the charts. Here's what this happened in the last three, what, month and a half?
- [103:39]
Bill Simmons
Four weeks. Yeah, four or five weeks.
- [103:41]
Tim Legler
A month. Really? Yeah. Is they look like they can be had, Right? They can be had if certain things happen. Now you said gun to head, Denver. Gun to head for me right now would probably be okc. I'm not ready to just act like them at their best isn't still something I'd look at as the standard. But they've now opened the door to the conversation. That's what they've done. Even the struggles they had with San Antonio, like three times in 10 days, that's not a fluke. There's something there. Denver at full strength. You're going, my goodness, like that. With Jokic getting another shot at that team again with a better supporting cast around him, like, yeah, you might want to bet on Jokic. But here's the thing. We haven't seen Denver like that yet because Everybody's been out. So we're going to see this and we're going to revisit this a couple times. I'm sure at least several times before we're done. The season going into the playoffs, it could change, but right now I'm still kind of hanging with them. But the fact that we're even having the conversation, that there's doubt has made everything more interesting in the NBA.
- [104:45]
Bill Simmons
Well, can I give you a scenario here?
- [104:48]
Tim Legler
Yeah.
- [104:50]
Bill Simmons
San Antonio's 31 and 15, Houston's 28 and 16. So it would require Houston somehow jumping San Antonio and it would require Denver doing a little better. There is an OKC San Antonio 1/4 scenario in round two.
- [105:05]
Tim Legler
Oh, yeah.
- [105:05]
Bill Simmons
And then there's a Denver, Houston 3, 2 round. Like basically there's a way for this to happen where San Antonio, OKC would be the round two matchup. And I think that would suck for okc. Not saying they would lose, but that would have to be their worst case scenario. Then have to play San Antonio and then Denver the next round. So I would just watch those top four spots. The Lakers are kind of lurking, but I, I don't. I just think it's going to be those four in some order after OKC and where they end up. Can Denver get to the two seed when Jokic comes back? So they could at least have home court and the first two rounds.
- [105:45]
Tim Legler
When it's all said and done. Which is actually amazing that we're not even talking about beyond that, because as much as we've acted like Oklahoma City's so vulnerable, they're five and a half games up.
- [105:54]
Bill Simmons
Right. Right.
- [105:55]
Tim Legler
So you know what I mean? That could, that could end up being eight when it's all said and done, who knows? But I think Denver will get the two seed and prolong seeing Oklahoma City as long as they can.
- [106:06]
Bill Simmons
What's your super bowl pick?
- [106:09]
Tim Legler
I'm going with Seattle. I'm going with Seattle.
- [106:12]
Bill Simmons
Because you work for ESPN and that's just what everybody did. No, because they poured the Kool Aid down your throat.
- [106:19]
Tim Legler
It's as simple as this. I'm an NFC guy. I'm an NFC guy.
- [106:22]
Bill Simmons
Okay?
- [106:24]
Tim Legler
That's been my conference my entire life. I'm an NFC guy. Look, this would be incredible if the New England pulls this off, man, it's almost. It's not even fair that you people that root for these teams up in.
- [106:37]
Bill Simmons
That people hate us. It's great. We're so back.
- [106:40]
Tim Legler
You just had Tom Brady for 20 years and he went, you know, you're back in the Super Bowl. We made it as a 22 year old quarterback.
- [106:47]
Bill Simmons
Come on man, listen, we, we suffered for five full years. It was terrible. Which is completely relevant.
- [106:56]
Tim Legler
I still though I'm going to wonder for a long time what the hell Sean Payton was doing not going kicking that field. But that's another for another day.
- [107:04]
Bill Simmons
I was on multiple Pats fan text threads praying for them to go for it.
- [107:08]
Tim Legler
Yeah, that situation, please go for it because you're just looking at the conditions and the way this game is going. You're like that 10 point lead, it's like looks insurmountable.
- [107:20]
Bill Simmons
Even if they got it, it didn't guarantee they were going to score a touchdown. They just would have been first and goal in the net.
- [107:25]
Tim Legler
Re the risk reward was not there.
- [107:28]
Bill Simmons
There's no basketball version of this where people have just decided you should just go for it blindly at all these fourth downs. Because I always feel like you got to bring in the situation, that Denver New England thing and Seth Wickersham wrote a great piece about it. The perfect example of throw away the analytics and think about the actual situation and what's going on and the fact that the Patriots offense couldn't do anything and you could go up 10 nothing at home with a blizzard coming. Take the points, forget about the analytics, forget about oh, we could go up 14 nothing.
- [107:59]
Tim Legler
Cool.
- [107:59]
Bill Simmons
You could also just go up 10 nothing and make us try to get two scores on you and you didn't do it and you gave us.
- [108:06]
Tim Legler
Funny though, I'll say this, like what's going on currently changes your thinking and I'll give you an example. Two years ago I'm a Commander fan, right. We go to the NFC Championship game that year we went forward on every fourth down all season. We got every one of them because Jaden Daniels 20 for 23. Impossible to stop. Yeah. So now, now you know, going into that year I wasn't that aggressive with it. Now by mid season that year, every single time. Ah, why do we even have a punter? Just cut the punter. We don't need a punter. We're going to go for it every fourth down all season. Like that's where I, that's where I got to. So it is amazing how like you can change your thinking based on like.
- [108:40]
Bill Simmons
Current success with something tasting anything. Last thing I had for you I talked about sign an NBA mailbag a rule in the last minute of a game. If a team's up four and there's a foul, the team that's up Only takes one free throw. If they make it, it counts for two points and we keep the game going. Or we could say last 30 seconds, whatever it is. Last 30. You're up. You found me. I'm up four because you want to stop the clock. One free throw, I get two. If I miss it, I still get to take the other free throw. But if I make it, I get two points for the one free throw.
- [109:18]
Tim Legler
And we keep penalized to penalize the team for trying to foul and get back in the game.
- [109:22]
Bill Simmons
Yeah, yeah.
- [109:24]
Tim Legler
Why?
- [109:25]
Bill Simmons
Because I don't like the fouling. The fouling is out of control. We're seeing teams now proactively fouling to try to game it with like 37 seconds left.
- [109:33]
Tim Legler
I agree with you. It starts.
- [109:35]
Bill Simmons
Tired of it? Yeah.
- [109:36]
Tim Legler
It starts even. Even the whole thing. Up three. Protecting a three point lead and how early some of these teams are found. I think it's a massive mistake. By the way, strategically, to me, if you're up there, I've seen teams do it 15, 16 seconds left in the game.
- [109:50]
Bill Simmons
Right. I hate it.
- [109:51]
Tim Legler
You have any idea how much you. How much longer you're extending the game? Because you're also going to put pressure on yourself to make free throws.
- [109:57]
Bill Simmons
Right?
- [109:58]
Tim Legler
Like, and there's good. You're going to miss one eventually. I just think it's silly. Like, you get down to that seven, six second range. Yeah, I see it. I get the point. Then. Some of these teams are doing it with 15 to 20 seconds left in the game. Up three, they're already taking fouls. I don't get it.
- [110:12]
Bill Simmons
Ain't it? All right. Tim Legler, Cleveland and who tomorrow?
- [110:17]
Tim Legler
Lakers, man.
- [110:18]
Bill Simmons
Oh, there you go.
- [110:19]
Tim Legler
We got a good one. Yeah, we got a good one.
- [110:21]
Bill Simmons
Both. That's a good one.
- [110:22]
Tim Legler
Playing pretty well. Yeah. So I'm looking forward to it, man.
- [110:25]
Bill Simmons
Great to see you. A pleasure as always. I'll see you in February.
- [110:28]
Tim Legler
You got it, Bill.
- [110:29]
Bill Simmons
Thanks. Thanks. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Legs. Thanks to Eduardo and Gahao as well. Don't forget, new rewatchables went up. Zodiac, which you can also watch on Netflix. And you can get that podcast wherever you want, including on Netflix. Wild things coming next week on the rewatchables. I have one more podcast coming on Thursday as we start to get ready. Notice how I didn't talk about the Patriots really at all during this podcast. I was really proud of myself. I'm saving my thoughts. I'm listening. I'm listening. There's already been some disparaging comments made in the media circles. I'm hearing everything. We'll be talking about the super bowl over the next week and a half. Anyway, I will see you in this feed on Thursday. Must be 21 plus on President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 Plus. I'm present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gamble problem call 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 888-797-777 or visit ccpg.orgchinconnecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland, Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-550 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York.