B (4:07)

Well, all right, so a few things as you just come out swinging. You're of the erroneous belief that I that The Patriots had one dynasty of 01 to 18. That's your belief, correct? That it wasn't 01 to 04 then the 05 to 13 good, but not good enough with the undefeated season. And then 14 to 18. Like I think you like, do you? Because if you think the Patriots had two separate dynasties, then I will fold my hand. The Chiefs dynasty ended this year. But if you think it's one continuous run, then we're still alive, baby. We can, we can not win a Super bowl for five years, eight years like you guys, and still be alive. So I what are the table stakes here on Dynasty rules?

A (4:58)

First of all, we went 10 years.

B (5:01)

Yeah, that's right. You went 10 years with a couple really horrifying, embarrassing, ugly super bowl defeats. Like, worse than getting blown out losing heartbreakers to the bad Manning brother. Like, it's hard to get over those types of things. Just like odds too much so when.

A (5:17)

During The super bowl. Somebody put a montage of all the times they almost picked off Eli Manning during the first giant super bowl. And it was over two minutes. It was over two minutes of balls hitting our hand fumbles that we had the fumble and then somehow the guy rolled over and didn't have it. I got mad all over again. Yeah, we went 10 years and it got to the point that when curse made that catch, Jermaine cursed on the.

B (5:43)

Seahawks, you thought you were dead.

A (5:45)

Well, no, at that point, it's like Spygate has cursed us. I remember walking through the emotions for two minutes there of like, there's something sinister happening now. David Tyree, Myra Manningham, all the weird shit that went on. Now we're going to lose on this freaking curse catch. And then it flips with Balcom Butler and.

B (6:04)

And so the Patriots run is so special for a hundred different reasons, but it's also so interesting because it feels like, man, play five of those games, two plays different. And do you guys have 10 rings and then also take five plays? Two, five games, five plays different. Do you guys. If the Malcolm Butler pass play doesn't happen, do you have the emotional gravitas for 28 to 3 or is the run over there? You know what I mean? Like, I do think that the. The Seahawks comeback, which is an underrated comeback, down 10 in the fourth quarter against that defense, two good drafts, two good stops. Right. Was the precursor to the belief we can do it in 16, which. So the I. But we're now.

A (6:58)

No, no, hold on. This is an important point, though, because I do think when you're in the mix year after year, you're going to have some either or Super Bowls, some ones you definitely should have won and then the lucky ones and somehow that evens out. So the Brady Belichick, they. I think they finished 6 and 3. Rams was a 50, 50 game, but they really had the game. And they're doing the interception. Touchdown, which gets called back, which flips it. Panthers should have been a win. Eagles should have been a win. First Giants game, they came back, we're down 14:10. We do the drive with two minutes left, but then we can't stop them. That was a 50, 50 game. So is the next Giants game. Seahawks game. We should lost.

B (7:38)

Should have lost.

A (7:39)

That's a. Should have lost.

B (7:40)

Falcons you should have lost.

A (7:41)

Falcons should have lost.

B (7:42)

Falcons you should have lost. And the last Rams game, we should.

A (7:45)

Have won that one.

B (7:47)

Should have won that easier than you did.

A (7:49)

Well, what about the Eagles game? Where does that stand? Because We Brady threw for over 500 yards and they somehow lost to. So Nick Foles and Doug Peterson beat Bill Belichick and Tom Brady. It's the one that doesn't add up out of all of those.

B (8:04)

Especially because Brady was so great.

A (8:07)

Yeah.

B (8:07)

And it feels like an arrogance tax. And I. And I. The arrogance on Belichick with the Malcolm Butler weird thing.

A (8:16)

Yeah.

B (8:17)

That there is just. No, I understand. Listen. Foals to his credit was unreal in the conference championship game the week before. He was great that week. But there's no way whatsoever where Tom Brady could have the game he had and you lose. And so that. That feels like maybe the oddest result of the last 20 years in the NFL. Can I. The either or thing on the chief side is interesting because we've had no either or Super Bowls go against us. Right. We've had three close super bowl wins and two teeth kicked in super bowl losses. Our either or games were conference championship losses. But I, you know, can I silver lining those?

A (9:02)

Well, yeah, you had the D4 game. That was a classic. Either or.

B (9:06)

A classic. Either or. That to this day, part of me is like, damn it, you win that game. Brady's on five rings, not six with the Pats. Mahomes can get that one. He's beat him. But galaxy brain here, if they win that game, they don't. And they make the Super Bowl. Mahomes his first year. They don't fire the D coordinator Bob Sutton and who then they then brought in Spags, which trans. Which allowed transformed Underman defense early. So if they win that game, I don't know if they win the next year. I don't know if they have the defensive personnel because that defense was so bad. In 18, the other either or game, we lost AFC title game to the Bengals when Mahomes got concussed and nobody.

A (9:54)

You know, got concussed.

B (9:56)

Yeah, right.

A (9:56)

Yeah.

B (9:57)

He's down up 21 to 3. They blow it. That's. That's like, oh, my God, left a Super on the table. But again, the butterfly effect of that was that led to the Tyreek trade, which led to the next two Super Bowls.

A (10:13)

Right.

B (10:13)

It led to the. And so the. The Chiefs either or moments have come around before the super bowl. But this was the. You were. So I told Wilds on Friday, he was like, just the only thing that can't happen is we get blown out. He was like, if we get blown out, all the schedule folks are coming out. Everything that we've seen the last 24.

A (10:34)

Hours, he was MVP stuff. Everything.

B (10:38)

Yes. Yeah, all of it. He was worried that what has happened would happen, but I told him. I was like, okay, but. And he was as confident as you. He thought if there was a blowout coming, it was the other way around.

A (10:51)

Well, we. We didn't know our quarterback got a freaking shot in his shoulder right before the game. If I knew that, I wouldn't have been confident.

B (10:58)

Well, maybe your Patriots should stop lying on injury reports then. Because they took him off the injury report. Strip them of a draft pick. If you want the sympathy. I want a third round pick. So you. You took the quarterback off the injury report Friday before the Super Bowl. But here's the question I have, because what I told Wilds was a blowout will not. The worst case scenario for you emotionally watching with your sons is a heartbreaking loss. So let me ask you what. Like, what was. Because I've never had a heartbreaking super bowl loss. I've just had teeth kicked in. Super bowl losses. What was harder to deal with? The. Let's call it the. The Eagle suit. The Giants are weird because there's extra baggage there. The Eagles super bowl loss.

A (11:43)

Yeah.

B (11:43)

Where it's, like, close the whole time. How did we just lose? Or this loss where it was pretty clear 20 minutes in. Oh, we might be screwed here.

A (11:53)

I'm glad you asked. Cause I actually prepared something for this. The five levels of super bowl losses.

B (11:58)

Wow.

A (11:59)

Yeah.

B (12:00)

Really?

A (12:00)

Yeah.

B (12:02)

Let's do it.

A (12:02)

Level one. This is the easiest one. We put up a good fight and we easily could have won, but we didn't. That's the Panthers against the Patriots in 2003. Really good effort. We almost won. We threw some haymakers. They beat us in the end, but you feel good. Like, we got there. We showed up. We didn't embarrass ourselves. We could have won the game. A couple plays could have gone differently, but if you're a Panthers fan, you're like, man, I wish we had won, but you know we can't stop them.

B (12:28)

Can that only apply if you're like a house money team? A nobody that's a house money team.

A (12:35)

So if the Pats lose to the Seahawks 24, 21. And we came close, but you could kind of tell we weren't as good? It was like, you know what? That's a really good season. We can build on this.

B (12:45)

Yep.

A (12:45)

Level two. That was painful. I wish we lost two weeks ago. So that's. That's, you know, like Raiders bucks. When the Raiders get to the super bowl and the Bucks just Kill them. And at some point you're like, I wish we never even made it. But. But you're going through the seven stages of grief as the game's happening. You probably had that with Chiefs Eagles last year where it's like, you know what? Probably could have. Probably could have missed this one completely. In retrospect.

B (13:17)

I, the I, I. The only reason I didn't feel that way was I like the having never lost a Josh Allen component of it.

A (13:25)

From the ownership of the AFC four and over Josh.

B (13:28)

Right. Which is a huge thing. But yes. That I was thinking the like the Chargers Niners Steve Young game where it's like, oh man, maybe we weren't even here.

A (13:41)

Or the last Bill Super Bowl.

B (13:42)

Yes.

A (13:44)

When they lost however many around. I'm pretty sure the Pats game like that was on Sunday. But here are the other three levels. Level three. Wow. We almost won and we freaking blew it. I think to me that the perfect example of this is the Jimmy Garoppolo Super Bowl.

B (14:02)

I was going to say the Brock Purdy Super Bowl.

A (14:04)

Well, the ch. But you go that, that Garoppolo, that long pass that he missed, he overthrew the guy by what, a yard? Half yard.

B (14:11)

Yeah. Emmanuel Sanders.

A (14:13)

You're thinking about that 10 years later.

B (14:16)

But doesn't maybe this is a next level. What about the next Niners super bowl loss where they had a lead in overtime and the Chiefs were in fourth and one. The n. That, that next Niner super bowl loss, it is 1916, fourth and one in overtime. Get a stop and you win the game. And Nikki Bosa thought Patrick Mahomes on fourth and one in the overtime of the super bowl was going to hand the ball off, right. And crashed down on the running back. And mom just scampered like that to me was the more heartbreaking loss. But maybe it's a higher level. Maybe it's. I'm. You're not there yet.

A (14:51)

It's tough because I always felt like I thought the Chiefs were going to win, that everyone had so much belief in Mahomes at that point. It was just like as long as he has the ball, I feel like they're going to win fair. Level four, we were demolished to the degree that it now changes every positive member I had of the season. So that's the 85 Patriots where we had this great run. We beat the Raiders and the jets and the Dolphins all in a row. We extinguish all these demons, get to the Super Bowl. It is an absolute prison beating. Like it's like just people coming into the cell and hitting us for two hours. And then two days later we have a drug scandal. There's a cocaine scandal two days later. And by the time it was over, you're like, I kind of wish we. I, I. Now, when I think of this season, I'm gonna think of this first, which is probably what happened to the Chargers, the Stan Humphrey season and a couple others. I don't think that's the case for this Patriot season because they were two years ahead of one or two years ahead of schedule for the we thought they're going to be. It was kind of amazing they made it and it didn't make me feel worse about the season. So I think this was level two. And I have one more level.

B (15:57)

But yeah, tell me why.

A (15:58)

Well, here's the last level. A brutal, unforgivable loss that will haunt me the rest of my life. That's 28, three falcons. That's Malcolm Butler game. That's Scott Norwood. You know the ones for that one.

B (16:13)

So, so this, the Patriots game obviously wasn't that. And you haven't had a drug scandal. Now your guys version of Travis and Taylor, Stefan and Cardi B might have, you know, hit the rock shortly after the Super Bowl.

A (16:26)

So there's, there's that crazy kids couldn't make it work.

B (16:29)

I know. I really had my money.

A (16:32)

They seem so stable.

B (16:33)

It's stunning. But here's, here's why. I wonder if this approaches level two territory Sunday.

A (16:43)

I think it's level two.

B (16:45)

The, the. You do?

A (16:46)

I did. Oh, no.

B (16:47)

Level. I'm sorry. So I have level four.

A (16:50)

Second to last level. Okay.

B (16:51)

Yeah. Second to last. I was, I did it backwards. I do think this super bowl paired with the playoff run in its totality for me has made me shift Drake May in my brain from sure thing to probably probable thing.

A (17:16)

Wow.

B (17:16)

Like, Drake May I. I said after week 10, like, he's just going to be a top five quarterback for me moving forward. Like, I don't know if that means Burrow gets kicked out or who. I don't know how it shakes out, but seeing him go over four. He was miserable in all four first halves. Miserable. And the weather was fine in the first half of those games.

A (17:40)

He had a good second half against the Chargers. He had three good drives against the Texans.

B (17:44)

Yes.

A (17:45)

He wasn't like a dumpster fire for four rounds.

B (17:48)

No. Well, he was a dumpster fire in the first round for all four rounds. And I thought that in the first half. Sorry. And I thought that this way The super bowl played out was concerning in this regard. I thought it was pretty clear. Variable game plan was, Darnold's gonna screw up. Like, the game plan was, don't make a mistake. Darnold will. And, man, the first play of the game, he almost threw a pick six. I mean, the first.

A (18:19)

We almost got three of them, right?

B (18:22)

And so he just. And he. You almost got a couple drive changing sacks, and he just barely eluded them. And so Vrabel's game plan was don't make a mistake. And those first nine drives, it's nine punts. And then the moment it was like, okay, Drake, you gotta go make a play. Your final five drives is two touchdowns, three turnovers. And it felt to me like throughout this postseason, the window opened of, oh, against good defenses. In order for him to hit those huge plays that he was so great at early in the year. Does he become too loose with the football? Like, does the fumbles and the sacks and the interceptions? Is that the cost of doing business for him, hunting big plays? And that would be my concern. That. That. And I think that stuff predates the shoulder injury late in the Broncos game. I thought he was awful. The first half of the Broncos game before there was a fleck of snow in the air, I thought.

C (19:27)

And.

B (19:27)

And that's. And to me, it was. He was like, I just can't turn it over. I've got to be careful. And that concerns me.

A (19:34)

So I watched the game again, and that's where I've landed. There's two pieces. One is what you just said. I think he was too sloppy with the ball in the first game, and they were hammering in. You have to protect the ball. And they kind of shut down a switch with him.

B (19:49)

Yes.

A (19:50)

What was great about him during the season, and this is why, obviously, I still am 100% on Drake May. He had the wow plays. There was a recklessness in a good way. And over and over again, he would just do something. You're like, holy shit. Whoa. Oh, my God. And it felt like this was amore. I just gotta protect the ball. I gotta. So that was the one piece. And the other piece was. I think he just took too many hits during this season. The shoulder thing, I don't know what the injury was, but he was missing, especially in this last game. He was missing throws that he'd made. He completed 73% of his passes. He was missing throws that he made for four months. And I've never been in a situation before in basketball. You're used to it, right? When Somebody's just, they, they're bad in basketball. It's like, oh, that guy's gacking. Or, oh, that guy. They've unlocked something like Tatum and Brown in the 22 finals. It's like, oh, the warriors have figured out something. These guys are young. This will make them better. They're going to come back stronger. The main thing I, I, him missing 10 yard throws over the middle. Just tell me. It just tells me that he was hurt and they were hiding it because.

B (20:58)

They weren't doing, you think he got.

A (20:59)

They weren't doing rollouts on the run before.

B (21:03)

Like, he got hurt at the end of the regular season because if I.

A (21:07)

Had to bet on a, on a scenario, I think he got banged up in the Chargers game because he took big hits in that game.

B (21:12)

Okay.

A (21:14)

But I think he got hurt in the Broncos game because if you look at the way they design plays, they didn't use his legs at all. Seahawks are running or they're rushing four. They have seven going back, which is like, that's like, that's like money for Drake. May just get me past those first four. I'm getting 10 yards. They just didn't want to use them that way.

B (21:32)

Do it well.

A (21:33)

They didn't want to use them that way, which is different.

B (21:36)

Yeah. So that, so that's, I mean, he's played 33 games, been sacked 102 times that. Which is a big number, obviously 21 in these four playoff games. And that is what made him so unbelievable the first half of the year in particular was he had a real devastating quality with his legs and, and.

A (22:01)

Throwing in the run, which was that. That was his secret sauce.

B (22:05)

And the best deep ball thrower in the league by a lot. Those first two. Like the best deep ball thrower in the league the first two months. He was the, There was a period where he was the only guy in the league that, when I'm watching, you know, yours, obviously you're watching the whole league, but your primary focus when the Pats are on is the Pats. Right. The Pats are, you know, one of my focuses. He's. But he was the only guy in the league that, when you saw him chuck it 30 yards deep, you expect. It was the opposite of how I felt early in the season when Bo Nix threw it 30 yards deep. Every time Bo Nix early in the year threw it 30 yards deep, I'm like, that thing is going.

A (22:41)

I don't know where it's going. Yeah, yeah, right.

B (22:43)

And, and Drake, you expect them to catch it. That changed by the end of the season, then into the playoffs. Then there is this other. Because Greg Jennings on the show, the biggest criticism he had was for Josh McDaniels for not giving Drake answers to the Witherspoon blitz. He's like, it's a slot blitz. Which means. And you said it, I think, on Sunday's pod.

A (23:07)

Yeah, Dave, turn around. Turn around two years.

B (23:10)

Just turn around. Um, so I think McDaniels obviously is an awesome.

A (23:15)

But did you see. Did you see the Seahawks? First, they said two things. One, they knew they could attack. Certain things. They knew it was going to work. It's always scary when the other team's like, we knew this was going to work. But it seems like they knew when the Patriots were in, run or pass, that they could tell by the way the linemen were lined up that they could tell what the play was. And it was like, that kind of makes sense. How did they know over and over again when the team was passing?

B (23:41)

So that would be. I mean, that. Sorry, I don't mean to make you bummed out, because I. I want to. I have one Josh McDaniel's question and then one offensive line point and do whatever you want.

A (23:53)

Well, that's another thing. We found out the left tackle had a torn knee ligament.

B (23:57)

But we knew that he missed a month with it.

A (23:59)

Yeah, but they made it seem like he. He could play and it was. It was healed. And then he was like, yeah, I was playing with the torn. I mean, I think he was playing with a torn mcl, which makes sense because there were times people pushed him back and he just fell backwards.

B (24:12)

Well, I mean, when. If people are watching on Netflix, bench him. Okay. If people aren't watching on Netflix, Bill Pantomime falling backwards. But when Bill Pantomime bit, his arms weren't T Rex length. They were regular. So like, that's so that poor Will Campbell. I mean, listen, you took a pretty good guard. 4 Overall, it's a tough spot.

A (24:31)

No, VRA said he's. He's.

B (24:33)

I know Vrabel said it. I know Vrabel said it. What do we make of this stat?

A (24:37)

Yeah.

B (24:38)

Ten Super Bowls Josh McDaniels has coached in. Only to be fair, only seven is the coordinator. Yeah, but all, you know, Tom Brady or Drake May's the quarterback for those 10, three first quarter points total. It.

A (24:54)

It ties into what happened all season. They always started slow and then took second quarter started. Come on. I thought the coaching was terrible. Can I read you the common reasons for a shoulder injection? According to Google Jesus.

B (25:08)

Yeah, I'd love it.

A (25:10)

It was like, yeah, shoulder injection. I wonder why somebody would get that. I don't know. I've never had a shoulder injection. There's five possible answers that Google said. Number one, rotator cuff injuries, inflammation or partial tears. Number two, bursitis or tendinitis, inflammation of the bursa or tendons due to overuse or injury. Number three, arthritis. He doesn't have that. He's 23. Number four, frozen shoulder adhesive capsulitis, extreme stiffness and pain where the injection helps improve range of motion. And then number five, impingement syndrome, pain caused by tendons rubbing against the shoulder bone. He had to have an injection before the game.

B (25:51)

Yeah.

A (25:51)

And then he. And you could see it with some of the throws where he's like whipping 10 yard throws and there's a throw that died 20 yards. We'll never know. And I don't think they'll ever tell us because I think they probably lied on the injury report, which is illegal.

B (26:02)

But they didn't know probably. He was on the injury report Thursday, Friday before the game, they removed him. And then after the game he's like, yeah, my shoulders shot up. But what's weird about that is the, his three best throws of the game were in the fourth quarter. Like as the, the, the throw over the middle in triple coverage. Not the one that cost you the game, but the one that was caught. So yeah, was a great throw. The touchdown was a great throw. Those were late. So I don't, I don't know.

A (26:33)

Well, can I ask you this?

B (26:34)

Yeah.

A (26:35)

QBs, who would you want the next five years?

B (26:38)

Love this. Love it.

A (26:39)

Next five. So that takes us 26, 20, basically through the 2030 season, rest of the decade. Alan Mahomes, May Burrow and Herbert. Is there anyone you would bump for somebody else? Oh, Alan was May Burrow. Herbert, is there anybody on the cusp for you?

B (26:59)

Well, that wouldn't be my top five.

A (27:01)

Yeah, that's what I mean. So who are you bumping?

B (27:02)

Yeah, so I would, I would go, I would go Mahomes Allen.

A (27:11)

So you would take Mahomes Allen?

B (27:13)

Yes, of course.

A (27:15)

The coming off an ACL in his early 30s.

B (27:17)

Now the early 30s. By early 30s you mean 30. So yes, technically, early 30s, yes. Coming off an ACL. I, I am not. I, I feel about Patrick Mahomes heading into 2026 the way you felt about Tom Brady in 2009. So yes, I would have Mahomes Allen, 1, 2.

A (27:39)

But for me May would have been 1. And now with the playoffs that he just had. Whatever the reasons were that we don't know the answers. I don't know how he can be won. And I love Drake May. I wouldn't trade for any qb, but I just, I'm trying to be rational. He can't be one after how he just played in the playoffs.

B (27:58)

And that's what's fair. And, and I think, and I think we can open the conversation up a bit to hey, May versus Caleb will be an interesting debate over this next five years.

A (28:10)

So you would take Caleb over Herbert? Because I would too. I was trying to be generous to the nerds.

B (28:16)

There's a, there's a lot of people. I would take over Justin Herbert because every column on the ringer that is a Justin Herbert defense has this sentence in the first paragraph. You have to be willing to ignore his playoff meltdowns. Or there is, there is this little like Cliffs Notes version of or footnote version of yes, we understand the two worst games he's played in his last 50 or the two playoff games and they were both meltdowns of the historical context. Right. It's. And so I wouldn't. And I would. So here's because you included Burrow, I have a crazy stat for you. Last five years. Last five years, Burrow and Lamar have played the exact same amount of games and we look at Burrow as like a real injury concern. And he and Lamar Jackson have both played 73 games the last five years. They both have not played in the playoffs three of the last five years. So I would, for me, my top five would probably be for the next five years. Mahomes, Allen, Caleb, Drake, May. Drake, May, Caleb. Three, four, and then my fifth. God dog it. Who would my fifth guy be? Burrow, Herbert.

A (29:39)

Jaden Daniels is in there.

B (29:40)

Just chalk off Jaden's as skinny as I am. Jaden. Jaden. I would go Burrow, but I would be nervous.

A (29:47)

So Burrow is my worst case scenario for the next five years for Jake May because part of the reason they had so many injuries is because he was getting the shit kicked out of him every year playing behind no offensive line. And it's like there's so many hits are just going to add up after a while. And I don't care who you are.

B (30:03)

Don'T you think Vrabel will. The reason I would not be as worried about that piece of it is Vrabel is just so much sharper than Zach Taylor and Vrabel. Like, I don't think Elliot again, you know, the Pat's better than me. I don't think Elliot Wolf is running things. I think Vrabel is. And Vrabel knows what to prioritize, so I think you guys will protect him. Can I ask you one more? Pat's question? I know there's other things you want to get to.

A (30:26)

Yeah.

B (30:26)

Do you want them to trade for A.J. brown?

A (30:29)

No, I want them to build through the lines. I honestly, we see it every year and then we forget. Build through the lines.

B (30:35)

I totally agree with.

A (30:36)

You can get to the point where you have a four man pass rush that's effective. That seems like that's the single most important thing you can have other than a quarterback. And then the third most important thing is can you block? Can you block? Can you rush with four? Do you have a quarterback you trust? And if you just have those three things, you can win the Super Bowl.

B (30:55)

And you just said the a pass rush with four is the most important thing other than a quarterback. Some would argue it's the only thing that stops the great quarterback.

A (31:03)

Yeah, you're right. Certainly. Stop. Brady lost.

B (31:06)

Brady lost to the Giants because of it. Both of my home super bowl losses is because of it. The Pats just lost because of it. Like our last two super bowl winning quarterbacks are quarterbacks that you grew to like. Yeah, like, okay, they're. But you had questions about who had these awesome D lines or that just made the other team's quarterback pee down their leg during or. You know what I mean, just play terrible. And so. Yeah, that's the. So I. Wilds wants them to trade for A.J. brown because he has the relationship with.

A (31:40)

I think that. I think the receivers are fool's gold. Like they, they. People should look at the Tyreek trade as like the example. Why you wouldn't do that. You traded Tyreek. He won two Super Bowls the moment you traded them.

B (31:51)

Correct.

A (31:52)

To me, paying $60 million for two receivers, I would just never do that if I ran a team. But it does seem like part of the art of this. And I hope the Patriots. Bob Kraft's been cheap. I'm going to use the C word. He's been cheap for 12 years. Part of the art of this and something Philly's been really good at. I think the Rams have been good at some of these teams of just. They keep pushing the cap. A year later, it's like the dinner check comes and they give it back to the waiter and they're like, can you bring this back in a half hour? And then the guy comes back and said, can we take 30 more minutes with this? And they just keep pushing it kind of to infinity because all the NFL does is make more and more money every year in all these different ways. And that seems to work.

B (32:36)

So here's. So that is. So this is something because I listen to SHIELD SHIELD talks about this a lot.

A (32:42)

This is a big shield thing and.

B (32:44)

I disagree with him on the efficacy of that. If you believe you have a quarterback the level you believe Drake May is. So let me just give a. So what you're talking about is I'll do this as quick as possible. I don't want people to turn it off. Talking about void years, teams tacking on void years so you can pay a player a bunch of cash and it cost you cap in years they're not going to be on the team.

A (33:07)

Right.

B (33:08)

You're borrowing from future years. Yeah.

A (33:11)

It's like it's like a loan shark strategy.

B (33:13)

Correct. A quarter of the league doesn't use them at all. The Chiefs are one of those teams. The Pats are kind of one of those teams. They don't do it. No. The Browns did it out of necessity because the Watson trade's been such a disaster.

A (33:25)

Wait a second. The Chiefs are doing something because they somehow had the ability to pay Chris Jones, Mahomes, Kelsey like they they.

B (33:34)

But Kelsey makes no money and those are the only guys on the roster they're playing other than their offensive lineman.

A (33:39)

But you have really not you other expensive guys in the though the offensive.

B (33:44)

Lineman, Chris Jones and Mahomes is the whole list.

A (33:46)

That's where you landed. Now that wasn't where you landed three, four years ago.

B (33:50)

Well what the Chiefs are doing is Mahomes is a 10 year deal. So Mahomes is deal. Can they. It's not void years. They can just constantly rework that. But let me say what Philly's doing.

A (34:02)

Yeah.

B (34:02)

So the average team like the median team, 16th ranked has like $60 million of void years of future cap that they're borrowing from The Eagles is at 472 million and it almost all comes due in 2028 and 2029. So what the Eagles did and they did this previously won a Super bowl was they are saying we are stocking up on this five year run and then we are going to by definition have at least one season where we're bad.

A (34:42)

Well the Saints did stay with Payton. Right. That was one of the first teams that did this. Yeah.

B (34:47)

And but they did it because their great quarterback was at the end. Yeah. They're like who Cares if we suck after Breeze, we're going for it, right? I wouldn't want the Chiefs to do it now when Mahomes is 35. Start doing it because who gives a shit about the team when he retires. Going to be bad. If I were you in the Pats.

A (35:05)

That'S what we should have done with Brady near the end, correct.

B (35:09)

At the end. With Brady, it's. That's when you do it, or you.

A (35:12)

Do the seven year deal with Brady and you just keep pushing money around. But they never did that.

B (35:17)

If they did that now with May, it's like, okay, just so you know, when Drake May's 29, all these bills are due and we're going to have an awful team for a year.

A (35:27)

But that's why you give them like a 12 year deal for $700 million. Then you start getting the.

B (35:32)

The Mahomes deal is so crazy that 10 years. I mean, he's on a 10 year, $450 million contract, so he makes $45 million a year that they. They've never added money to it. They've accelerated money through him. And that gives you a level of flexibility that other.

A (35:53)

Just keep redoing it. All right, we got to take a break. Coming back, I have some other sports I want to talk to you about. This episode is brought to you by Pepsi. I have one. It's right here. Pepsi Zero Sugar.

D (36:07)

Ooh.

A (36:10)

Drink it later. It reminds me, you guys have to watch the new Pepsi Zero Sugar Super Blad final. Have a sip. Okay. It follows a polar bear who steps up to the iconic Pepsi Challenge. Labels removed. Which tastes better, Pepsi Zero Sugar or Coca Cola Zero Sugar? The winner. You guessed it. Pepsi Zero Sugar. And that's based on real results. Last year, Pepsi revived the iconic pepsi challenge. And 66% of participants agreed that Pepsi Zero Sugar tastes better than Coca Cola Zero Sugar. I don't know what to tell you. Go out and try Pepsi Zero Sugar today. You deserve taste. You deserve Pepsi. All right. NBA All Star weekend is coming up. It's 37 minutes from my house. I'm not even sure I'm going to go. I'm still on the fence. That's. That All Star game has just beaten out any sort of curiosity out of me over the course of my life. Now they have the world. I don't know what's happening. Brandon Ingram is somehow on a team now. I'm like, I don't. I might just stay home. I have a.

B (37:21)

Can I try to convince you? Hold on. Before you get to. Because if you're not going to the All Star Game. Yeah, because I am. I'm flying to LA Saturday morning for a number of reasons. One of which is in something that I almost think is better if we don't even explain and the audience who doesn't know my story is just perplexed by it. One of the reasons is I'm coming to LA to see my granddaughter who's three months old.

A (37:45)

Wow. Unbelievable.

B (37:47)

But the other reason is, and this is where I think, if you're not going to the All Star game Sunday night, you certainly should hit up ringer colleague Rich Paul and come to the Clutch sports party Saturday night.

A (38:02)

The Clutch sports party. Wow.

B (38:05)

Sports Saturday night, All Star party. I'll be there. I. It's.

A (38:10)

I'd officially be a member. I wore the Clutch sweatshirt last week, kind of ironically during the trade deadline.

B (38:16)

I know, I'm.

A (38:18)

I'm just saying, can I give you an All Star Saturday thing that I just have to put my foot down on once and for all? I don't mean to be a dick and just piss on stuff, but nobody likes tall guys in the dunk contest. I'm waiting to meet my first person who's like, hey, I heard they have three centers for the dunk contest. Can't wait. The shorter the better. I'd rather watch 5 foot 2 people try to dunk than a 7 foot person. I'd rather they pick 5 foot 2 people out of the stands. Who wants to watch Jackson Hayes dunk? I wouldn't want to watch him dunk if he was outside my house right now at my court.

B (38:52)

Dwight was the outlier. Dwight was fun. I didn't even enjoy that.

A (38:56)

It was fine. Whatever.

B (38:58)

He was fine.

A (38:58)

And there was a lot of dunking on a ten foot hoop. How hard is that?

B (39:02)

So it's. Is this possible, Bill, that we, until we get to the point in human evolution where somebody can do a front flip dunk, that all the dunks are done. That like we've said that, that the re. What's happened to the dunk contest is actually, we're out of new ways.

A (39:24)

It's over. I've been saying this for 15 years. It's over. We're done. I was thinking watching the Winter Olympics. I used to love the ski jump as a kid. It was the most terrifying event. They were using 1970s skis. They don't have the track the same way. And these people go down. You really felt like their life was in danger. Every time you'd watch it, you'd just Be like, oh, my God. Next one. Oh, he landed. And now they have awesome equipment. And it's the most boring thing I've ever seen. It's like, oh, he's a foot longer than the last person. It's like, cool. All right. And I didn't watch it.

B (40:01)

There's no danger at all once we've removed the possibility. There are certain things that the possibility of disaster is what makes it captivating.

A (40:14)

Well, that's F1. And like, let's, let's be honest. People are watching F1 partly because of the danger. And if they, if they say they're not, they're lying. The.

B (40:22)

So I don't. The All Star Saturday. I, I have a lot of feelings about the things the NBA needs to fix and needs to fix from a unilateral. Just a. An edict from Adam Silver. Like, not. Let's. Let's not have a committee. Let's not. You know, it seems like they keep tweaking different all stars approaches and none of them have worked. And.

A (40:51)

Well, it's like we're both married. It's like if our, if our wives were like, hey, I'm. I'm going to try that tuna casserole again. And it's like, well, it was terrible the first 49 times you made it. No, but I was talking to one of my friends and they said, if I use these different kind of breadcrumbs, it's going to be really good this time. I was like, all right, I guess. And you know, it's going to suck. That's Saturday night. It sucked every year.

B (41:17)

And the game. Here's the only thing that could save the game.

A (41:22)

And it's, wait, can we go back? But I want to get to the game first in a second.

B (41:26)

Sorry.

A (41:26)

The Saturday. Strip everything down. Forget all the contests and the events. What do people actually want to see? Like, if you ask your son. If I ask my son, just be like, what do you want to see? The first thing they would say to me is, I want to see Caitlin Clark and Sabrina trying to make threes and beating the NBA players. I think would be the number one thing people would want to see. The number two thing would be, I want to see the best players in the dunk contest. Right. And that's really it for Saturday night. And then I don't know if you're.

B (42:01)

A one on one tournament.

A (42:03)

No, because I, I think the. I don't think the guys would care enough. I think they would do the half assed. The same reason horse doesn't Work. They don't want to be embarrassed. These guys always move into I don't want to be embarrassed mode. You really have to pick it carefully. Like you'd have to pick the people, like the Anthony Edwards types who would be like, I'm actually going to take this seriously. So I mean, honestly, I'd. Out of anything, I'd watch the Isaiah Stewart running off the bench contest over anything else. Isaiah Stewart coming off to save a teammate, risking a 10 game suspension. I'd watch.

B (42:35)

Do you think? Slight non sequitur. You know, you guys have talked about how Joker. Joker wants to be, you know, wants to do something with his horses and is kind of cursed by how good he is at basketball. Yeah. Like if there's a hundred percent chance that if Joker could make as much money doing whatever he does with his horses as he can in basketball, that's what he would do.

A (42:59)

So you think he'd run into a horse event where he rode a horse shooting threes.

B (43:03)

I was thinking about Isaiah Stewart. Oh, we all agree that Isaiah Stewart's real passion is fighting. Right? Like if somebody was like, hey, you're. Your NBA contract is. Is valid, but it's for the ufc. He'd be like, I'm never touching a basketball again. Sign me the ball.

A (43:21)

He's really good. Like that hurt the Pistons that he's going to get suspended. I think he's just like the greatest teammate. He really takes things personally on behalf of his teammates, which I love. But we've also seen that gone wrong over the. Yeah. And on behalf of himself, he. He's the only person in 20 plus years who actually legitimately got mad at LeBron and wanted to be the hell.

B (43:41)

Out of him that was gonna say.

A (43:41)

Yeah, he's the only one.

B (43:43)

He was gonna fight LeBron.

A (43:44)

Yeah. And. And beat his ass is what was gonna happen. Ime Adoka was the only other one who LeBron and was like, if we want to go, I'm right here.

B (43:56)

Yeah. Yeah. I don't think that would have worked out well for ime. Isaiah Stewart maybe has the age advantage and would have had us. Would have had a shot.

A (44:03)

Have him like minus one. 80 over LeBron.

D (44:07)

Who?

B (44:07)

Isaiah Stewart. Yeah, well, yeah. I mean young Isaiah Stewart against Old LeBron maybe.

A (44:13)

LeBron crafty like a little Julio Cesar Chavez.

B (44:16)

Right? I would. But I would have Lebron -400 over coach Ime Udoka trying to act.

A (44:22)

He's a tough. He's a tough though, that guy.

B (44:24)

I know he's a tough guy. I understand. I still The. But this is foolishness.

A (44:30)

Wait, you. I interrupt you on your Sunday thing. How would you fix the game on Sunday? Is it fixable? Because I don't think it is.

B (44:36)

It's fixable in four years if your guy Con Caniple continues on this trajectory. And we just have to say, you know what? PC headlines be damned.

A (44:50)

I know where you're going.

B (44:53)

White. White guys versus black guys. Luca, Joker, Flag, Reeves, Knipple again against Wimby, whomever. And I you. I'm telling you right now, guys would play hard like that. There would. There would be a re. There would be a real edge to the game.

A (45:14)

They would get a talking. It would get a lot of talking points going.

B (45:16)

Get a lot of. And we are getting close to a place where it'd be like, oh, that'd be a good game. Like, there hasn't been a moment in the NBA in the last 50 years where if that ended up just by chance being the game, it would be you. You could see either team winning. But right now, Cooper, Flag and Con Canipple and Austin, Reed Pritchard's out there.

A (45:41)

Yeah, right.

B (45:42)

But they also get all the Eastern Europeans. Like, you get Luca, you get Joker. You have real talent. That's something. In the meantime, I don't know what the hell you do. This us versus the world thing is not good. Nobody understands it. Here's the problem. I do this for a living. I don't totally. When they announced the all star teams, I'm like, wait, I thought they were going to announce eight foreign guys, 16Americans. They still did. East, West. I didn't understand any of it.

A (46:12)

If you can't explain it in a sentence, fire the guy who came up with the idea.

B (46:17)

Yes, that's right.

A (46:18)

Like, it's a. It's a basketball contest. Can you explain in a sentence? Well, there's three kinds. We have the world. This team's eight. There's going to be a round, right? It's like, wait, you lost me five seconds in. This leads to. I really want to dive into Adam Silver here, who, yeah, I might even run into this weekend. So this could be awkward, but I thought of this one. You know, I. I've been talking about Seattle and Vegas and expansion for four years. I was like the first person to bring it up. And I think it was serious for a while. Then I think they backed off and the media deal was as big as it was then I heard it was just going to be one team. Now there's been buzz for a while that maybe they're thinking about two again. There's a big coalition against it that Jim Dolan is a big part of. And somebody reported this week. It's. It's back on. I think it'd be a huge mistake. And it ties into. The other biggest issue that the league has now is the tanking, which has become Groundhog Day. Every February we do this. It's like the first time everybody realized that tanking's terrible.

B (47:24)

We're not and new invent new ways to. What the Jazz have done this past week is unprecedented.

A (47:29)

We're going to have two more teams when we already have eight teams on February 7th that have punted on the season. Eight of the 30 teams have punted. We're going to add two more that don't give a shit. Why would they do this? To me, there's huge fundamental issues with the league that they're just yada yada ing and pointing to all the media money they've made and the fact that their players are famous and that everybody loves the playoffs. It's like the regular season has real issues. It's too long. Guys are getting hurt too much. Everybody is making so much money. The only reason to have 82 games is because you make money from it. You go down to 70, you make less money. Guess what? Devin Booker, Instead of making $75 million in 2028, he'll make 73. He'll be fine. All this shit, everything they're doing, they're not serving. The larger picture of what do fans want? How do we keep our players healthy? How do we have a competitive season from start to finish? How do we avoid over 1/4 of our league not giving a shit for the last two months? How do we fix this? And it's the first time I've really wondered, like, is do we have the right guy running the league? Because he doesn't seem interested in actually fixing real problems that everybody can see. And it's not about, like, look at the NBA Cup. Oh, we created this thing. It's like your schedule is too long. You have to fix this. It's too long. It should be 70 games.

B (48:57)

So I, I want to. First of all, that's a. That's a great, great three minute Simmons ran.

A (49:05)

Yeah, I just did a first take rant. Jesus.

B (49:07)

That was. That was great. That's a great.

A (49:09)

Sorry, I got fired up.

B (49:11)

No, but it. But is Adam Silver a wartime consiglieri? And does anyone in the NBA office understand it's wartime? That I don't care. To your point, the media deal is separate from the overall health of the league long term. I, I listened obviously to your conversation with Chuck about his great book Football and he talked about kind of a sidebar to your conversation was the ebbs and flows of leagues and popularity and what has been in the, in the sports fan zeitgeist over the last hundred years. And one of the lessons of that is no league, no sport has a lifetime license to importance or to being a major, major American sport. And the arrogance any of the leagues could have, which is it couldn't happen to us is concerning Major League Baseball. For whatever criticisms people have, their commissioner, who I think is fair, there's a lot of fair criticisms of him, he said, you know what, we have real issues right now and I don't give a shit if people think these changes are too drastic.

A (50:29)

Right.

B (50:29)

I am just going to by edict change some of the rules and make the sport because ultimately it's all entertainment. This is the entertainment business. We're fighting for eyeballs, we're fighting for interest with Broadway, with other leagues, with Tik Tok, with everybody. We've got to become more engaging. And the NBA's right now refusal to to me address what are they're in a three front war of what are real threats. Front one. I'm not going to pretend to be smart enough to understand which is something about the way modern basketball is played. Modern athletes bodies are not really able to handle and we have more.

A (51:12)

Your guy LeBron said this on More than a Game and it kind of came and went the moment but he's like basketball is way harder to play now. It just is. Yes. I'm telling you, I've been here for 20 plus years. It's harder to play now. There's more running, there's more stop and start, there's more sprinting. It's harder if they're not going to listen to him, what the fuck.

B (51:31)

And you've talked about how the, you know, the canary in the coal mine is the Achilles and how that used to exclusively be an old guy injury and it's not anymore. And these soft tissue issues. So that, that is a big. I'm not saying there's a simple fix to that, but that is fix would.

A (51:51)

Be get rid of, get rid of the Euro step. How about that as a fix.

B (51:55)

How about change the rules dramatically?

A (51:57)

How about like, like the, the footwork shooting coaches and I don't have to name them, but how come certain clients of certain shooting coaches seem to have lower leg injuries all the time? It's because they're putting too much stress on their lower legs. Tyrese Halliburton and Jason Tatum shouldn't be blowing out their achilles at age 26, 27. It's ridiculous.

B (52:16)

So. So that's the first one and that's the. I think that's the hardest one to solve, but it might be as important as any. The second one is this. And this one. I don't care if I sound like an old guy. As I said, I'm a grandfather. I'm allowed to be an old guy.

A (52:31)

Grandpa Nick.

B (52:32)

Part of every sport has an identity that makes it special. For football, it's violence. It just is. It's just a var. You know, that, that, that's not the only thing. But there is a violence to it that attracts us.

A (52:49)

I think football's violence and strategy combined.

B (52:52)

Sure.

A (52:53)

I think it's those two things together makes it the most popular sport.

B (52:57)

Baseball, it's kind of nostalgia and the fact that it just reminds. It brings you to a place in the year, a place in your life. Summertime, outdoors. The feeling of that. That all of that and basketball for me, for my entire childhood and young adult life was, holy shit, is that guy flying? Like it is crazy athletes. It is crazy feats of athleticism mixed in with balletic brilliance. And.

A (53:29)

And I would throw in coolness too.

B (53:32)

Yes.

A (53:32)

Even as in the 70s, going to games, the basketball players just seemed like the coolest fucking guys in my life. And that's been the case ever since.

B (53:41)

And what the analytics revolution and three point shot has done to what is rewarded, what style of play is smart and what types of athletes succeed in the league has taken away an enormous amount of what was the NBA's identity.

A (54:05)

Yeah.

B (54:05)

Which was the rewarding getting to the rim and rewarding different styles of play. And so when I say on this one, I have some drastic suggestions that seem insane. But I don't think in. I don't think in radical changes are out of line. Like on. I loved the Hollinger idea of every team draws their own three point line up to and including a team like the. I don't know, the. But the Nuggets three years ago, if they were like, we're not having one and if we get home court, you better be able to win games going by two and every. It makes the regular season matter more because home court matters more and teams need different styles. I've said. And people laugh at me like I'm joking and I kind of am, but.

A (54:56)

I'm kind of not. I'm Jealous of that three point line idea. He's had that forever. But it's a great idea.

B (55:00)

Such a great idea.

A (55:01)

Like the outfield wall in baseball. Every outfield wall is different, and that's how we do it. And.

B (55:06)

And in different parks. It's like, oh, shit, we're going to Fenway. It'd be like, oh, man, we're going to Golden State. Remember, there are three point lines from 40ft out, you know, whatever it is. And the other, the one. I've said that people think I'm joking, but I'm only kind of joking. Hey, everything stays the same except for one small rule change. Dunks also worth three. Dunks also worth three, by the way. And see, if you prioritize athletes and a different style of play, if. And again, that seems insane. And I'm not saying. And the. The NBA historian part of me doesn't even like it, even though it's my own idea. I'm like, yeah, what would you do to the record books? But the sport is on shaky ground because the smartest way to play is not the most attractive way to play. And that then gets us to the third thing, which is the tanking.

A (56:03)

All right, so you have style of play. You have the injury stuff.

B (56:08)

Yeah.

A (56:09)

And now you have the tank. Those are your big three.

B (56:12)

And the tanking is an abomination. And the fact that it hasn't been nipped in the bud by the. I don't care if you want to go to Mike Zarin's draft wheel. I don't care if you want to go to your idea of, hey, you are whatever pick you had in last year's draft. If it's in the lottery.

A (56:34)

Yeah.

B (56:35)

You are guaranteed a pick at best three spots worse. So if you have the number one pick, you're capped at four. If you had, you know, whatever it is, I wouldn't care if. How about.

A (56:46)

You can't have two top four picks two years in a row. You just can't. So that. That kills. So Dallas, San Antonio, Philadelphia and Charlotte had top four picks last year. None of them are eligible. So Dallas, tank yourself away. You can only get the fifth pick, but knock yourself out.

B (57:03)

I also would be. I don't understand how you can see what Utah's done the last couple games.

A (57:09)

Well, the one which is this week is I. They might have made history with BET with really good players just not playing the fourth quarter in early February. It's not even April yet. It's not even March yet. It's not even Valentine's Day yet.

B (57:25)

It's not the All Star Game.

A (57:26)

These guys are sitting. Jaren Jackson and Laurie Markkanen are just sitting on the bench and they win anyway, which was the funniest thing.

B (57:34)

Well, but it is. But think about what we're saying here. The Utah Jazz traded for a really good player.

A (57:41)

Yeah.

B (57:42)

With the intention being. Yeah, of course. He's not going to help us win games. The Hawks traded for two players with the intention of. Well, not for this year. And we're all fine with it. And I shouldn't say we're fine with it. The league's fine with it.

A (57:59)

You mean the Wizards, not the Hawks.

B (58:01)

Oh, yeah, I apologize. They traded with the Hawks. Yeah. They got Trey Young and Anthony Davis to never play them. And I understand there's injuries. How do the Jazz like.

A (58:16)

Yeah, but here's my question back to you. How do you blame them? The whole point? So I'm going to go back and I want to keep going on your three things, but I'm going to go back to 1984, which was the birth year of tanking. This was it. This was the Jonas Salk polio vaccine of tanking. Hakeem and Jordan are the draft prizes. It's still a coin toss for the first pick. Everyone has traded away their first round picks in dumb trades. Indiana, they're one of the worst teams. They'd already traded their pick for Tom Owens. Cleveland, they're one of the worst teams. They'd already traded their pick for Mike Bratz. The Clippers, they'd already traded their pick for World Be Free. So the only two teams that controlled their own picks that were bad were Chicago and Houston. Chicago starts out 15 and 17. At some point they're like, huh, they finished 12 and 38. They lose 14 of the last 15. They get blamed for tanking. I went and looked at the roster their guys all played. I think they had a lot of like, drug stuff and weird shit on that team. I'm not even positive they're tanking. You know who was tanking, though? Houston. Houston is Ralph Sampson.

B (59:23)

Yeah.

A (59:24)

They start out 20 and 26. They finished 9 and 27. Their last 36. They lose 14 to 17, nine of their last 10. There's a famous game that is the birth of tanking. Second to last game of the year. They're playing San Antonio. They need to lose. Game goes to overtime. They lose in overtime. Sampson only plays 22 minutes. He has a 22 and 11. They don't play him basically, second half. Elvin Hayes is on this Team, you know, Elvin Hayes is one of the title. Of the bullets top 50, top 50 guys.

B (59:53)

I would say one of. Yeah, I would say one of the top 30.

A (59:55)

Top 50, top 60, whatever. He's washed up at this point. He's playing 12 minutes a game. He's at the tail end of his career. He's like, I don't know. Pick somebody. Now that's. He's Chris Paul. He plays all 53 minutes of an overtime game, goes 7 for 20, 16 points. They lose. They never take him out. And they're joking after, like, he needs an iv. He might. Might need to take him to the hospital. Their way of tanking was to just put Elvin Hayes out to fucking die. So what happens? Houston gets the first pick, they win the coin toss, they get Hakeem Olajuwon. Chicago gets the third pick, they get Michael Jordan. Everybody's like, this is fucked up. We have a lottery the next year, and we haven't figured it out since this was 1984. So this is 42 years ago now. And 42 years later, after this event of the Elvin Hayes game, we have Laurie Market and Jaron Jackson, completely healthy now playing in fourth quarters. 42 years later, they have not figured this out.

B (60:55)

So, all right, two things, quickly.

A (60:57)

But by the way, it was worth it. They got. Chicago got Michael Jordan, and Houston got Hakeem Olajuwa. Would they do it again?

B (61:02)

Yeah, of course, but. So two things. First, one is this. There is nothing you've ever said about LeBron Patrick Mahomes or my hair that hurt me more than you questioning if I knew who Elvin Hayes was.

A (61:14)

Well, I just thought that was a.

B (61:15)

Dagger to my heart.

A (61:16)

I just want to make sure that's fair. I like your hair.

B (61:20)

Thank you. No, it was House who killed it. Here's the.

A (61:23)

House is.

B (61:23)

Here's the. Obviously.

A (61:25)

Yeah.

B (61:26)

I mean, give me a minute.

A (61:26)

Come on.

B (61:28)

But the. I. I don't know the year. You'll know the game not that long ago.

A (61:36)

Mark Madison.

B (61:36)

Gratuitous. There you go. Gratuitous. Tanking was games 79, maybe 80. Yes. 81 and 82. Fine. And Mark Madsen, green light from three. No problem. And we kind of like. Like, yeah. And we kind of all were like, okay. We understand it like, we get that at the very end of the year. But the mission creep of that to where we are now.

A (62:09)

Yeah.

B (62:10)

Is galling. And I. I do think that the simplest solution, in addition to what you're describing about you can't, you know, if you have top four, you're. You're. The next highest you can have is five or whatever might simply be. It is back to a version of the Ewing lottery which was everyone has the same odds like you. Everyone is at.

A (62:43)

I called this in my book in 2009 and then I somehow got off of that idea. Now I think I'm creeping back onto it.

B (62:50)

I now it's possible the negative impact of that would then be teams that could be in the playoffs would be like, nope, we want to miss the playoffs to get in. But I think if you just play.

A (63:05)

In, teams are not eligible because the worst case scenario would be a playing team being like, ah, we're not going to do anything anyway. And they tank the playing game, which would be an absolute disgrace.

B (63:15)

So playing teams are not eligible.

A (63:17)

So the final 10, all of the same odds, the worst 10 teams, same odds across the board.

B (63:22)

10% across the board and with real harsh penalties. If there is any indication that a team is attempting to avoid making the play. He can do that.

A (63:36)

He's already, he's already been too soft on that. Can I throw an idea at you? Because I think that no top four pick two years in a row would solve some of this. Any team that falls below 27 wins for this season. So you have to go 27 and 55. That's the cutoff line for every, every loss. Under that, you lose a million dollars in cap space for the next season per loss. 2% refund for season ticket holders per loss for the next season. So if I'm, if I'm, I don't know, wizard season ticket holder and they go 16 and 66, they go 11 games under the cutoff. I have 22% off my tickets for the next year. Just like just blanket. It's. I'm actually, we're taking money out of their pocket. Plus they would lose 12 million in cap space for the next year. So you couldn't do the thing where it's like we're tanking but then next year we're going to go for it. It's like, no, you can't do that. You didn't take last season seriously, we're taking some of your cap space, we're lowering your luxury tax and we're fucking you over on this because this is not right.

B (64:44)

Yeah, I'm, I am, I'm fine with like extreme penalties. I would be fine with. They said, hey, just so you know, if you get the number one pick of the draft, if in that number one picks rookie contract, you make the playoffs. It's five road to home in the first round. I would be fine with drastic yeah and it was and like I nobody you know who ends up with Cooper flag is going to actually be bummed about it. But they that there is like you can't do relegation in the NBA but something that is relegation ish where there is a real negative impact of being awful.

A (65:33)

Well that so that so the way to relegate is cap space.

B (65:37)

Yeah that's right.

A (65:38)

Like to actually like hurt a team's ability to make themselves better and to penalize them. The thing to me that I always go back to is the season ticket holders like they have to pay full price for this shit. You're in Utah and you're loyal to the team and I like you. I like their owner Danny Ainge is there like I get why they're doing what they're doing because the rules aren't telling them not to do it. So they're actually playing this correctly. But it's not fair. Now Utah's. This is three years in a row where they haven't given a shit about the season. They have Laurie Market in who's top 25 guy. Top 30 guy.

B (66:12)

But. But so that is when you. What you just said there is a huge key to I think also the three point issue which is directly contradicting incentives. And I actually had a Sloan conference 10 years ago or eight years ago.

A (66:32)

Name drop the.

B (66:33)

Well I moderated a panel and our friend Darrell was on it.

A (66:39)

Yeah.

B (66:39)

And I asked him then basically how.

A (66:43)

Do you.

B (66:45)

Square the circle of the smartest way to build a basketball team which is your job might not be the best way for the league to grow. And he said I am not. My job does not allow me to be concerned with anything other than what is the best path possible to build a champion. Whether that style of play, how we approach things, whatever it he said and I'm you know paraphrasing him it's the league's job to worry about those other things and put the rules in place to make sure the smartest way to win a championship and build a team does not contradict with the smartest way to grow the sport. And that's where I think the league has failed. I don't think it is an extreme position to say they have failed in that. What you're saying is these tanking teams. It's smart for Milwaukee. You know what you should do not play Giannis the rest of the year.

A (67:48)

But look at the people that we think are the best general managers or the best run teams. Right. San Antonio tank twice. Yes, right. Oklahoma State, Presti shut down SGA. I think two years in a row. Danny A Celtics, not 2007. The team threw. Paul Pierce was healthy. They threw him away for the last. All the smart teams have done this. Daryl would do it. I mean, it went out of control with the process. But everything we're talking about is tied together though. The schedule.

B (68:19)

All the great GMs, Sean Marks too.

A (68:24)

But the schedule tanking actually, like, you can solve a lot of the problem by fixing both at the same time. If you have a shorter schedule. Like I, I look at the Premier League, which has a. A way shorter schedule than the NBA would ever do. But it leads to some really great things. And you have, like, Lester was able to win that one year partly because the schedule, the sample size was smaller and they got lucky and. But if you have a 70 game season, or 72, whatever, better for the players, you could space stuff out better. It's more egregious if guys don't play. And you also cut down the last three weeks of the tanking. Right. Like, I had Con Knipple on my podcast in December and I gave him a ride back. Or maybe he said this on a pod, I can't remember. But we were talking about, do you ever get to practice? He's a rookie, he's 20. We think, like, man, it might be important for Khan to practice. He just got in the league. He said they hadn't had a practice at home in six weeks. How is that, like, in six weeks? They hadn't practiced in the practice center at Charlotte. When I saw him in December or January, whenever that was like, it's like. And Steve Kerr says the same thing. And. And at these press conferences, if you want a free, like two minute answer from Steve Kerr, ask him what he thinks of the schedule. Cause he'll talk about it every time. It's like, we don't get to practice. Our guys are playing hurt. Our guys are banged up. The sport's too hard, the season's too long. Now Curry's hurt. Like, this is part like, I was gonna go to the Laker game. We're taping this on a Tuesday afternoon. It was gonna go today. They rested all their dudes today. And it's like, no, I'm not going to go.

B (69:57)

Yeah. Moment of. By the way, because of that moment of silence, LeBron's incomprehensible 21, 20 straight. All NBAs officially dead. I know that. Listen. He probably wasn't going to make it anyway, but now he won't hit the 65 game threshold for adults with Crohn's.

C (70:13)

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A (71:12)

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B (72:36)

Yeah, I mean that is a we. And again, this part is cliche at this point. Everybody knows this is an issue, but people. Coach Mangini, my dear friend and contributor to First Things First.

A (72:49)

Spicy whistleblower. I'll never forgive him. Turned out his mentor. He's one of the. He's a mentor Turner. I had him on my podcast once. He.

B (72:58)

He and his son were in New York two weeks ago when he was doing the show and they had tickets to Lakers Nets because he wanted his son to see LeBron Sons. They live in Cleveland. Son's a huge LeBron fan and he talked with me a ton the days leading up to it. Like do I need to also buy tickets to Lakers, Knicks? Because how confident are we that LeBron's going to play? And now you know LeBron.

A (73:32)

Right, right.

B (73:33)

And so. But that is such a. You can't be. And I know people have heard this before, but it's so maddening. They haven't fixed it. You can't be a league where you are just stars. Stars market. The stars come see our stars, our stars carry us. And by the way, if you go see a game the stars may or may not play, it's a disaster. That is.

A (73:56)

And we're also on five different channels right now and you have to spend 10 seconds remembering what day it is for the peacock game or the whatever. I love the NBA. This is why I care. This is why I wrote a 700 page book about it once. I would say anything we have talked about for the last 40 minutes to anybody who works for the league. I know a lot of people that work for the league. I like the people that work for the league. They know this is a problem. And the schedule thing comes down to money and that's it. And it starts with that. And then the tanking thing also comes down to money and comes down to coming up with real penalties that would dissentivize somebody like Utah, who clearly Utah has Jaren Jackson, they have Laurie Markkanen, they have Keante George who's been a breakout star. They're going to have another lottery pick and they obviously want to be good next year. Will Hardy's going to, you know, probably develop a drinking problem. If they're, if they're actually penalized for how they're handling this year with the cap. And the cap comes backwards by 12 million or whatever because of the way they're behaving. Maybe they don't behave that way. Like they have to start thinking about this stuff.

B (75:00)

So here's My question for you, because I don't know the people in the league the way you do. I, but I do care about it the same way you do. Like, this is my whole life up until probably 10 years ago at most. I'll be honest, probably till Mahomes came into my life, I would have said the NBA is my favorite by a mile.

A (75:18)

Yeah.

B (75:19)

And now I don't feel that way. I feel like the NFL is slightly ahead of it.

A (75:23)

I'm like, I'm 50. 50. And I never used to be 50, 50. I was always NBA first.

B (75:28)

Correct. Me too. I love the league so much. I understand on an intellectual level why shortening the season is a hard ask. Because of the money. I get it.

A (75:39)

It's six home games for every team.

B (75:41)

No, I, I, I, I think they should do it.

A (75:44)

You're talking 12 million a year plus TV money. Maybe it's 20 million per team split with the players. It costs everybody 10 million a year.

B (75:52)

I agree with you, I, I agree with you 100%. But I still understand why that's hard. I don't understand why penalizing tanking is hard. Why, why can that not just be a red line? Hey, Utah, congrats on what you did this week. You don't have your first round pick now, so do whatever the fuck you want to do. But.

A (76:16)

So you're talking about wartime conciliary Adam Silver being like, I've had it. If you do that again, I'm going to, I'm, I'm going to suspend you. So another theory that or another idea that a couple readers had was could you suspend ping pong balls?

B (76:31)

Love it. Yeah.

A (76:32)

So with Utah, they do the Laurie Market and Jaron Jackson thing. Adam Silver's like, I didn't like that. You're going to be 20 ping pong balls shy at the lottery.

B (76:42)

Well, that's, you could take away 20. And this is where you need to just have, hey, you need to have a commissioner who people trust is ethical, which I believe the league has. I don't think people think Adam Silver's that you need to have someone who they trust is ethical, but you might.

A (77:04)

Need a fucking asshole at this point. You might need like mid 2000s David Stern.

B (77:09)

Right. And, but the rule needs to be, you know, if the more lenient than what it takes to overturn a call in the NFL. Basically, like, if I think that's fishy, you might get penalized. So like, you know, so, and, and you're gonna have to trust me that I'm not playing favorites I'm not. But just so you know, if. If I think you are not on a night in, night out basis trying to win basketball games, you might end up out of the lottery no matter what. You might end up having real penalties that go against what the whole. You think the whole purpose of this is? I. I don't think it's that hard.

A (77:54)

So the ping pong balls with the lottery, I forget how many there. There are for each team.

B (78:03)

Well, there's. I mean, I can do that. There's a thousand total. So if you add.

A (78:08)

Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah. So the top team gets. Or the top 200 or whatever.

B (78:14)

Yeah. So 130 would be.

A (78:16)

Would you allow teams to trade ping pong balls? Like, maybe ping pong balls are part of the answer. With this, Adam could penalize people ping pong balls when he sees Fox, and there's just less ping pong balls in the. In the thing. I mean, it's sad that we have to come up with dumb ideas like this. This already should have been solved because here's the thing with the league, they do this new cba, they basically put in a hard cap, right? You saw these teams scrambling to get under the tax, making their teams worse. It's a hard cap because yet again, they took advantage of the players association, which got its ass kicked, I think for the fifth or sixth time in my lifetime, by go figure, Buy a bunch of rich dudes with, like, better lawyers. They just figured out how to do this, cut the cost, because they're going to make as much money as they can from everything possible. Right. He could still be kind of a hard ass with the owners. They all won. They're all winning. They all made a kajillion dollars already. Like, start. Start cracking it a little bit.

B (79:18)

Adam Silver, well, that's the part of it. And that gets back to the point I was making about the difference between shortening the season, fixing tanking, shortening the season. You're right. It would be better long term. I think everyone would make more money. It's. There's a million reasons to do it. The one reason they wouldn't do it is those 30 owners would be like, wait, so 12 million less doesn't sound great to me. And you don't want to have that fight. But there is no. It doesn't cost the owner's money to fix the tanking. All it takes is a stern will to actually enforce your book. Your rules on the books. You have anti tanking rules, just like you have anti flopping Rules that don't get enforced. You can simply say, like to teams, hey, you are allowed. If you would like to trade away your best players, that is fine. You are allowed to set. You do things where you are like, we're not there yet, so we are. You are allowed if you're the Pacers and you see Halliburton's hurt and you want to. I know they didn't trade Miles Turner. Let Miles Turner walk. You're allowed to build your team however you want.

A (80:28)

Right?

B (80:28)

But once the season begins, those guys who are paid to play pro basketball and the coach who was paid to try to win games, if you're not doing it, you. There is no world where that's good for you. There is no world where people can come on this podcast and be like, Milwaukee not playing. Giannis is smart. That's not smart. That's abhorrent. And it would never be accepted in the league that keeps growing in the NFL. It would never be accepted for at the at. Before Thanksgiving, much less before, you know, they wouldn't be accepted at Christmas. But if the. What's a good example this year if the Cowboys, after the first six weeks of the season was like, we're sitting Dak Prescott because we really want Julian Love out of Notre Dame. Is he hurt? Well, he had that injury last year and, you know, we're just being careful, but let's be honest, we're not playing for anything. You think Roger Goodell would accept if the Cowboys were like, I know we're playing on Thanksgiving, but Dak Prescott and CD Lamb and George Pickens aren't? Because we want to lose The. Well, the players are out there. We'll try, but we actually want to lose. No, they wouldn't. It would be an outrage.

A (81:47)

Yeah, they'd be probably afraid of the reaction from the person in charge of the league.

B (81:52)

Correct.

A (81:53)

It's. As I said, this has been a 42 year problem. And it's funny that it becomes a talking point for people like us right after football ends because people look around, they're like, NBA dog days. What is there to talk about? And the irony is we have more good players than we've ever had in the league since I was a year out of college. This is the most high end talent we've ever had. I did a trade value list that had over 80 guys on it night to night. It's been the most entertaining kind of group of games. There's always one awesome game every night. We have all these young players that have come in the league that I love watching. This last rookie class was a home run, and it seems like this next rookie class is a grand slam. The answer to all of this isn't to expand the two teams and don't fix the tanking and don't really fix anything. Including, like, what's going to happen with the Clippers thing. Like, what's going to happen? Because. Just. Because. Did it happen? Did it not happen? We've had three months to look at it. Everybody's talking about it. If there's not a smoking gun, does that mean they look the other way? Like, that's been another topic. It's weird. It's just weird. We always talk about. And then the other thing that people are talking about is like, Jokic isn't going to be in all NBA. He's going to. If he plays 63 minutes, but he plays 2100 minutes. If he's 20th in the league in minutes, but only plays 63 games, he's not eligible.

B (83:20)

Well, the all NBA thing, if you got there aren't. You couldn't find 10 people in the world who care more about historical accuracy of the all NBA two of this podcast, Right? Exactly.

A (83:34)

Yeah.

B (83:35)

So, like, it is 2,000 minutes.

A (83:37)

Just make it 65 games or 2,000 minutes.

B (83:41)

Or again, make it with. At the commissioner's discretion, like the. Again. So I. I am.

A (83:50)

I'll.

B (83:50)

I'll use LeBron as a for instance. Pretend for a moment LeBron was playing at the level he was at two years ago.

A (83:57)

Yeah.

B (83:57)

Okay. Just for just for the sake of this discussion, if. If a guy in year 23 at 70,000 minutes suffered an injury before the year, a real injury, and had to miss 15, missed the first 15 games of the year, and then over the next 67 games played, 62 out of 67, it's like, nope, that guy's ineligible for everything.

A (84:24)

That guy.

B (84:26)

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life. Like, that's. That. That's not.

A (84:30)

But I understand why they did it the way they did it, because they were trying to crack down a little bit on guys just skipping games. Like, which goes back to your story about the Knicks and the Nets game and not knowing when LeBron was going to be there, so that, at least in this case, the spirit of it was okay. I just think they came up with the wrong numbers.

B (84:47)

I agree with you.

A (84:49)

One bigger question, though. Do you think the NBA does this intentionally? Do you think they're intentionally.

B (84:58)

Some level of controversy?

A (85:01)

They're intentionally flawed. They like this they like that we're doing segments about this. They like that we talk about the league and how we should fix this and they should do this and they should do that. Like, because that's the only explanation I have because some of these fixes are so easy and simple. Like literally nobody likes the instant replay thing. Nobody, not one person, nobody's like, oh, cool, last two minutes of the game now it's gonna take a half hour. This would be fun. Nobody likes it. They just bring it back. It's like they like that we don't like it.

B (85:33)

So if they, if that is true, I think it is a massive strategic error. Maybe answer replays not because actually with it like the ratings still go up the late, like the longer the game goes. So maybe that's fine. But the other stuff I think is outrageous. But here's the other reason why I think it is a real threat, if you will.

A (85:56)

Yeah.

B (85:57)

One thing leagues correct, I've never liked, but they are correct about the reason they have rules about celebrations and taunting is because kids emulate it. I've always thought that stupid. I've. Listen, I had, I had a kid who played college basketball and was a high level, all state level Texas basketball player. And I told him the same thing I would tell anyone, tell their kids, like, hey, here's the rules. Once your games are on national tv, you can act like the guys on national tv. Until then, you're a high school athlete, you know, conductors of such. But they are correct. Kids, whether it's the three goggles or the style of play, emulate the pros. And I'm watching this kid at Kansas who is emulating the pros. It appears in a different way, which is, yeah, I don't really need to play all the time. And that's concerning. That's this, this guy you were talk, you guys were talking about as the best guard prospect since Dwayne Wade or.

A (87:03)

Since probably since Vince Carter at North Carolina.

B (87:07)

Right.

A (87:07)

So just even better than him. Maybe like the Kobe level. Potential. Talent potential.

B (87:13)

Right. And they're playing the number one team in the nation at home.

A (87:18)

Yeah, but that's, but this is like all I need to know if I'm drafting because the number one thing that we know that I'm older than you. Yeah, it's like psychotic competitiveness. Cooper Flagg, just like right now, like, just like being like, I'm getting my ass kicked. I'm going to keep working at it to get better any way I can. LeBron in year 23 still getting up at 5 in the morning. He used a fucking Versaclimber. He has every record that exists. What makes him use the VersaClimber at 5 in the morning? Because he, I don't know, there's something inside him. And it worries me that this kid's at Kansas being like, yeah, I don't know, I don't know if I'm playing today. It's like, it reminds me of Ben Simmons at lsu, which was a red flag when that happened.

B (88:02)

But my question would be, is there any chance. Oh, it trickled down, right. Twenty years ago, if he has the exact same makeup, exact same everything, is there any chance that happens or is it like, no, of course I'm playing, of course I am playing. And so it just, it is trickled down. All of this stuff has trickled down in. Do you, I, I know you're like, have you been to a. I guess you have no reason to go to one, but I'm talking like middle school basketball game. It's just threes. All of it is through that.

A (88:41)

Yeah, my, my, both my kids were in high school. Yeah, it's just pull out, it's fast breaks. The two kids dart out to the sides instead of trying to get.

B (88:48)

And I know, I know we sound like old cranky men right now. I don't mean to, but what I'm saying are there are real things, there are great things about the NBA. There are things better now about the NBA than ever before. Your point about the depth of talent, about how I, I think it is a testament to the league, the whole weak link theory that it's less about do you have the best guy and more about can you put out five really good players? I think that's all awesome.

A (89:19)

And everybody plays really hard. Which we should point out too like that, like there's an intensity to these games when the people do that. Like people are playing defense, they really.

B (89:29)

Like, it's always harder to play and it's smarter and the, the strategy is so much more sophisticated and all of that stuff. And we have gotten more. If we were like, hey, what are the 10 greatest old guy seasons in NBA history? Eight of them are LeBron, Steph and KD over the last four years.

A (89:53)

Right.

B (89:53)

You know what I mean? Like we are, we are the all time greats are playing longer. There's so many great things about the league and then there are these giant warts that seem so obvious. To not be directly attacking them head on is frustrating because they're never going to lose you and me, ever. It. But to bring in the larger tent and young people to care is important for the health of the league.

A (90:24)

Well, you made the key point earlier. You mentioned baseball, who realized they were at a crisis point. They were. They were at a much more dangerous point than the NBA is.

B (90:33)

Yes.

A (90:33)

But they realized, like, we have to fix this. This is like.

B (90:37)

And they did it drastically.

A (90:38)

This is. This is like a real problem. Our sport might be going sideways here. And they fixed it. And I think the problem I have with the NBA is they think everything's fine because of the media deals they signed and because people like their players, which I said at the top. And that. That there's still real issues here that are going to get worse. And you could stop it now or you could wait four years from now and be like, oh, shit, we should have done this four years ago. And that's just where we are. All right, Nick Wright, I took too much of your time. This was really fun, though. I felt like we had to do this. I was excited to do it.

B (91:11)

Well, it was night. You had me on for the first time when, as you put it, once the Chiefs were dead.

D (91:18)

Yeah.

B (91:18)

So it was nice to come on.

A (91:19)

I had to do the right thing. Yeah.

B (91:22)

And I guess I'll see you in a few days at the Clutch Sports All Star. Let's see you there.

A (91:30)

It's very possible you might. All right, Nick Wright, great to see you. Thank you. It's time for a special part of today's episode. It's brought to you by Michelob Ultra. A really good beer. You should try it. It's a superior light beer, best served cold. Kind of like all the best, weirdest, funniest, strangest moments of the NBA season so far. We're heading toward All Star weekend and it's a good time to reflect on all the things that we've seen over the past. What is it, three and a half months? Four months, whatever it is. I have a mini mailbag. We're going to do six questions, just six tiny questions that I'm going to bounce off from this season. First one's from Justin Carrio and he asks, do you realize that small game James has been sitting there out in the open as a nickname for James Harden all this time? Frankly, astonishing that Bill Simmons hasn't been using it. I agree. It's petty, it's unfair, it's a little mean spirited. It's right in my wheelhouse. Big game James obviously was James Worthy, who For the record 1984 finals, game two through the pass that got picked off by Gerald Henderson. Celtics tie it. They go into overtime. They win it. He shed the name. He became big game James thanks to game seven, 1988 finals, and was just a great big game player in general. Not too late for this to happen to James Harden. We'll see. But for now, small game James is pretty good. Next one from Matt from Ithaca. Can we get a quick clarification on the Ewing theory? Eligible for Jordan and the resurgent Hornus? He means Michael Jordan. Wow. Here's my answer. I can't believe he's besmirching the goat. Michael Jordan. But Michael Jordan deserves it because he was a really, really, truly terrible owner. This isn't Ewing theory. Ewing theory is you lose a player who is considered to be a superstar and then he gets hurt and the team inexplicably plays better without him. That's not the Ewing theory because if you win a championship, you're ineligible. I think there's a cousin of the Ewing theory, which I would call the Yawkey family trust theory. This is what happened with the Red Sox where they had the Yawkey family own the Red Sox. First, Tom Yawkey, he died, gave it to his wife. She got old. She had a trust running it. I can't remember if she even died or not near the end. But the trust was terrible. Fenway park was a pit. The area around it sucked. The team didn't spend enough money, and everybody was really, really frustrated about what was happening with the team. And then the team got bought by John Henry and Tom Werner and Larry the Kino. And it was basically, and I remember writing about this at the time, like it was the very cool, nice boyfriend following the terrible boyfriend. That's what the new owners became. And I wonder if the Yawkey family trust theory could apply here to the Hornets because they have a really good ownership. They hired a smart coach, they make smart moves. They're actually building a team that has a sense of purpose. This is what happens. It's the opposite. We have new owner syndrome. When we have situations like Matt Ishbia and people like that, when they come in, they try to get crazy. The Yawkey theory, that's where you want to be if you have somebody taking over a team. This also happened the warriors with Joe Lake, by the way. Okay, next one. Doug from Chapel Hill. Why didn't we call the Giannis trade derby the freak out? It's pretty good. Kind of mad. I didn't think of that freak out. And by the way, we didn't end up freaking out because he didn't get traded. Which leads to the next one from Jacko. Not the same Jacko. I checked the email address. He said, I see your point that I made in the trade deadline podcast that Giannis could have forced his hand right near the trade deadline and forced a trade somewhere. And he didn't. But he says, historically, we have scrutinized, rightfully Harden, kd, Kyrie, et cetera for saying, I want out at every stop. Shouldn't we be talking positively about Giannis not being a jerk, keeping in house for the most part, and handling this like a respectable employee? It's a fair take. Here's my counter. He never really 100% did that. He never came out and said, I don't want to be traded. Please take my name out of these trade rumors. I want to retire in Milwaukee. He just never said it. He was kind of like, I don't know, it was like watching one of your friends being wishy washy about whether they're going to break up with somebody or not. And then the day after, all of a sudden he did that, the deal with the prediction company. And it just felt like the whole thing was a roost to get attention. And if I was a Bucks fan, I wouldn't have liked it. I'd be happy that we kept you on us. And maybe you scratch him for the year, you get a lottery pick. But it wasn't like a Dirk Nowitzki situation where Dirk Nowitzki was just like, I'm never getting traded from Dallas. If I get traded, I'm not going to my next team, is basically what he said. I feel like Curry's like that now with Golden State, Milwaukee and Giannis. It never. Giannis was always kind of like, you know, he's getting dressed up and going out to the nightclub, showing some cleavage at the trade deadline and then pretending he wasn't doing that. I think he was. So next question is from ph. He said, can we agree that Chris Paul officially had the worst retirement tour in NBA history? It was pretty bad. The worst one ever, though, was Elgin Baylor, who was on the 1971-72 Lakers, and his knees were just completely broken down at that point. And instead of having a retirement tour, he kind of abruptly retired. He just felt like he wasn't playing his standards and was just over. And then the Lakers went on to win 33 straight games, which is still a record, and then they won Jerry West's only title. And not only did L.J. baylor not get to participate in any of that. But then he became a famous Ewing theory. We didn't know what the ewing theory was. 1972, that's the worst retirement tour because Eljah Baylor was one of the 15 best players of all time and probably when he retired, one of the best 10. So now he's probably in the 20. But that was pretty bad. To abruptly retire and then watch your team win the title without you. This Chris Paul thing wasn't great. Last question, Nick from North Carolina. The way the Kings and Bulls keep trading with each other is hilarious. I agree. Even in three team trades, they cannot stay away from each other. It's pretty funny. It's like when your friend gets another friend from college or something and all of a sudden they bring them along whenever and wherever. It's like, I know we've had this plan to go to topgolf for weeks, but can my friend Ralph tag along? Or like when a big brother has to bring his little brother along with him to meet up with friends. I wonder if Vivek has to check in with the Bulls before pulling the trigger on some of these trades he makes. Hey, I'm about to get fleeced at another deal. You want in? I don't know. It's too funny. I agree. The Bulls and Kings, when you see them in a trade together, the only thing you know for sure is that you want to be the third team. It's Bulls, Kings, I want to be the third team. I don't even care who's in the trade. That's where I want to be. Vivek just brings an incredible amount of comedy. He's going to probably not enjoy the live show at the Wilton Theater tomorrow night. The only other thing I want to do before we wrap up the six pack, let's talk about a superior all star player. I have my eye on Jamal Murray because Jamal Murray has come out and said, I care about this game. I'm going to try really hard. Let's see if anyone can follow your example. Jamal Murray. That's it for today's Six pack. Go grab your own six pack. Michelob Ultra Plus Michelob Ultra is giving you a chance to win exclusive prizes, including courtside tickets and more. Enter now at michelobultra.com courtside Michelob Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Michelob Ultra Courtsite 2526 no purchase necessary. Open to U.S. residence 21+ begins on October 1, 2025. Ends on June 30, 2026. Multiple entry periods. See official rules@michelobultra.com Courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and prizes and details. This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into. That's why it's no surprise that more than 85% of the Fortune 500 use the ServiceNow AI platform. While other platforms duct tape tools together. ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data workflows, and AI connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters Most. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people at ServiceNow. This episode is brought to you by Workday. Could AI help you do more of what you love, like reaching bigger goals, ahead of schedule, growing careers, and the bottom line? Well, Workday is the next gen ERP powered by AI that actually knows your business. Anticipating your toughest challenges and how to better solve them. Connecting more dots in your organization so your people have more time to connect what they love. It's a new workday. All right, last but not least, my dad is here. He thought I was banning him from being on Netflix, one of his favorite streaming services, but he's depressed. You'd big blizzard. The Pats lost. Celtics made a trade not looking as good. And you were in a great mood with sports a month ago and now I'm worried about you. I don't know what's going on with you, so I'm checking in.

D (100:35)

I was in a great mood two weeks ago, a week and a half ago. I'm not a big fan so far of the Celtic trade, as you know. I think it upset the chemistry. I love the way Simons played. He gave them energy and was a great score off the bench. And it's going to take them a while to get some chemistry with this guy. Maybe it will work out. I hope so.

A (100:59)

Did you figure out how to pronounce his name yet or no?

D (101:02)

No, I just called him Vuk.

A (101:03)

Okay. Do you want to give it a try and see how it goes?

D (101:10)

Something like that.

A (101:11)

You've always liked him, though. He was one a year. I always liked him, guys, but unfortunately now he's in his mid-30s.

D (101:16)

Yeah, I always liked him. I didn't know he was going to be 36 years old soon, but I liked him. I wish we had traded for him five years ago.

A (101:24)

Yeah, I went to the game Friday night, the Miami game, and then obviously they sucked on Sunday night. But yeah, we were just worried about going from three guards to two when the team what was working was these three Guards that they were interchangeable, they could play off the ball, they could play with the ball. You always had two of them out there and you could feel the shift. But they, it feels like Tatum's coming back for real. I mean that every check mark and it really seems like beginning of March. There's two home games in the beginning of March. It feels like it's going to be one of those.

D (101:57)

Yeah, it's the only thing that's getting me through the lack of chemistry that we have right now after the trade.

A (102:03)

Oh, I thought you were going to say the end of the Patriots season. My concerns about Drake may. Okay.

D (102:10)

That they know Tatum's coming back. Yeah, they know that they're going to get scoring that they didn't have before to take the place of Simons. I still though like the three guard movement and I would have liked the three guards coming back with Tatum, but, and I understand the money thing and it's a shame all these moves we've made in the last 10 months. They're all money motivated, but I guess that's the new NBA.

A (102:37)

Well, you know, there's two ways to think about it with the tax and I, I, I, I'm, I don't mean to defend the Celtics. And you're coming on after a segment where we were really critical of the NBA with their schedule and a whole bunch of things for a half hour. So with the Celtics though, getting out of the tax for one year then enables you to have all the spending flexibility for the next three, basically. And I think that, I don't think fans fully understand that because on the surface you see like, oh, they're just cheap, they don't want to pay it. And it's like, no, actually like now they can go all in on next season where they have this trade exception and you know, they can actually outspend some of the people they're competing against who are more hampered by the tax. That's how, that's the glass half full reason for it, the glass half empty is pay the fucking tax. You just paid 7 million for the team.

D (103:29)

I understand all that. It's just I don't know how many more windows we have with this current makeup of Tatum and Brown and the people they're trying to surround them with.

A (103:43)

Are you worried at all about Tatum coming back when it's kind of Jaylen Brown's team now?

D (103:47)

I am worried because I've been to the games and you've been a couple and this is a different Jaylen Brown this year. He's kind of black hole in an okay way. Meaning that the ball, once it gets to Jaylen Brown, doesn't always move to.

A (104:04)

Another player because he moves, but he makes good decisions when he has it. So it's.

D (104:10)

He does. Except for four or five plays. A game that you and I always talk about.

A (104:14)

No, you talk about I'm way higher on Jalen. You get frustrated by the missed free throws at the end of games. And I think he's been unbelievable. I honestly, I think he's first team on NBA right now.

D (104:26)

I don't disagree with you. I love that he's going to the basket so hard this year. It looks like he built up some strength because defenders are just bouncing off him.

A (104:36)

Yeah.

D (104:37)

But he's playing a game that he didn't play when Tatum was here healthy. Right. And I don't. And you know, I don't know how they're going to mesh this when Tatum comes back, because Tatum likes the ball. Obviously, when Jalen Brown is out there, I don't know what his usage rate is, but he always has the ball.

A (104:57)

Yeah.

D (104:57)

And Tatum always had the ball. So they're going to have to learn how to live with each other again in a different way, I think. And Tatum, I'm sure they'll bring back slowly.

A (105:07)

It's going to be emotional. The way we thought before the year they're over, under was like 41. I thought they were going to be better than people thought. I didn't think they'd be a top three seed, but it seemed like the likely scenario was there'll be a seven seed. Maybe he comes back if he's completely healthy, plays 20 minutes a game. But it's not. It's not a serious playoff team. But they have a chance to be a serious playoff team if he comes back, which I don't think they do.

D (105:35)

You know, they. A game like the game against the Knicks Sunday worried me. Yeah. The team just didn't look together, and they've looked together all season long. Now, I realize you bring in, you know, we haven't had a real post player in years. So you're bringing in a guy who's a post player, a center who passes very well, and from what I've read and looked at his stats, he has the three. We haven't seen too much of that.

A (106:02)

Yet, but he's in some bricks.

D (106:03)

I don't even. Yeah, I don't even know if he's had a practice with the team yet. So I guess we have to wait until after the All Star Break. And. And you have a date in mind for Tatum to return in your mind when March turns around.

A (106:16)

Yeah. So I think one thing with the All Star break is the, the two guards and Jalen, I think, just had a pretty I. To me, White looks cooked. Yeah, White looks good. And white shot has. Has gone sideways. Like even today they. Somebody got bounced, somebody got scratched for injury from the All Star game. And I think White would have made it three weeks ago, but he just hasn't been consistent at all shooting wise. So Brandon Ingram got the spot. But I think Pritchard, White and Brown really need the break. One of the best things about Brown this season, he hasn't missed. He's only missed a couple games. Like he's been out and he's guarding the best guy on the other teams. A lot of times I just think he's been awesome.

D (106:55)

You know, that's a very good point. He wants to guard the best guy on the other team. Yeah, that's. Publicly he's talked about that. Pritchard really needed a rest. And you know, I've loved Pritchard all year long and last year, but against like Sunday against a team like the Knicks, he had trouble just getting a shot off. When a team really guards man to man very closely, our guys have some struggles. Maybe Tatum will help fix that. But Sunday game was a worrisome game.

A (107:30)

This late, fun subplot. Well, that's the thing. When you're in February, March, you can't overreact to wins and losses because you're just. But the Tatum thing, him coming back and getting in there will be really fun to watch.

B (107:43)

All right.

D (107:43)

It'll be really fun.

A (107:44)

The Pats not fun.

D (107:47)

You know, I've thought about it a lot because you and I have talked after the game. I go back to September and I would have been really hopeful if they were 9 and 8 and excited if they were 10 and 7. I didn't pay attention to the schedule that much, but I was thinking about the two terrible years we just had where we were lucky to win four games each year. So nine and eight on a rebuild year with a new coach working with a second year quarterback, I would have been satisfied and maybe we would have snuck into the playoffs. So this was all gravy. I mean, we were in the Super Bowl. Nobody expected that.

A (108:28)

And oh, man, you're handling this really well.

D (108:31)

I am. I've been philosophizing a little bit.

A (108:34)

Sounds like it.

D (108:36)

And it was obvious Drake May's shoulder was hurting him. And now more news Comes out, they shut him up and. And now more news is coming out about the left tackle. Maybe never should have come back from his injury because he was.

A (108:52)

Yeah, yeah.

D (108:53)

So this. But we were in the Super Bowl. I can't complain, really. And I love the coach. I love the chemistry and camaraderie he's built into that team. I hope most of them come back and they supplement a couple of guys with great draft picks. So I'm not that disappointed. I was disappointed Sunday night.

A (109:14)

Obviously, you're disappointed. Then you got to watch cousin Sal make fun of me for 15 solid minutes.

D (109:21)

I didn't enjoy your position that night.

A (109:24)

It was tough. At least I had time to prepare for it.

D (109:27)

Cousin Sal, I've never seen him so happy.

A (109:30)

How about if you had told me in the early 90s that we were going to be in 12 Super Bowls by the time we got to the mid-2020s? I was thinking about that the other day. They made the super bowl once in 1985, and it was played in 86, but that he 85 pats, and it was like we were so dumbfounded they made the Super Bowl. Then it happened again in 96. It was like, oh, my God, we made it again. And now we have the record for most Super Bowls, which was when we were Pats fans in the 70s. Just winning a playoff game would have been. We would have been excited.

D (110:09)

I know. I remember Sugar Ray Hamilton. I still have nightmares about that game.

A (110:14)

And you took me to the Oilers game. The playoff game.

D (110:17)

Yeah.

A (110:17)

Got killed.

D (110:18)

Got killed. The irony is. Yeah. We've been in 12 Super Bowls. We've lost half of them.

A (110:24)

I know.

D (110:26)

That's bizarre.

A (110:27)

And this was the. Out of all these, the first one and the last one were the two where we just felt like we got our asses kicked. Even the packers won. I still feel like if they didn't kick off to Desmond Howard, I still feel like we would have won. You know, I'm always going to think that nobody will change my opinion.

D (110:43)

I can close my eyes based on where we were sitting and see Desmond Howard. Howard coming right at me. And guys had so many shots.

A (110:52)

Oh, yeah. You went to the game. I did. You went to that game.

D (110:55)

Yeah, I went to that game. Yeah.

A (110:56)

Yeah.

D (110:57)

No, I. I give the Pats and the coaching staff and the players energy and. And they always plugged in a lot of credit.

A (111:06)

What's the mood in Boston? Because I know you've been dabbling with the tv, radio stuff. Has it been more negative than I thought it was? Going to be or.

D (111:13)

No, I don't really have been. I think there's some. If there's anything, there's some disappointment, I guess, in direct may, maybe a little less so when it came out that he had to get shot up before the game, you know, because they, they really downplayed that he was injured.

A (111:29)

Yeah, I'm aware.

D (111:31)

And they, and they probably should have had him on the injury port for the super bowl. And that could back come back to haunt them if he got shot up. Right.

A (111:40)

Yeah. You don't get shot in your throwing shoulder unless something bad happened to your throwing shoulder.

D (111:47)

Yeah.

A (111:47)

And we also watched him all year and he was like, you know, he was really accurate. And then in this game he just wasn't. So I don't like, the fear is like maybe his shoulder wasn't that hurt and he just choked. But I'm not willing to go there because we saw too much from him during the year.

D (112:03)

But he was so accurate all year. And it wasn't just the super bowl, though. The whole playoffs were kind of a nightmare in terms of turnovers.

A (112:14)

Well, maybe he needed it. Maybe this will make them double down and maybe it'll make them want to have a better offensive line next year.

D (112:21)

Yeah, of course there is that radio station that talks about. Is he really Mac Jones in disguise?

A (112:30)

I can't even imagine. Yeah, because there's still. I was there this weekend. There's still. Now it's like frozen snow on the ground. It's freezing.

D (112:38)

Well, you know, that's the other thing. If we had won and they wanted.

A (112:43)

To have a parade, you couldn't have even had it.

D (112:45)

They couldn't have had a parade. There's cars that won't come out until April. They're covered with sheets of ice.

A (112:54)

And then. Where did you come down on the second season of Landman?

D (113:01)

I thought the last four episodes pulled it together and.

A (113:07)

Oh, pull it together. Yeah.

D (113:09)

I thought there were middle episodes in the middle, like 3, 4, or 5. They were a little bit slow and didn't know where they were going.

A (113:18)

What are your. What are your top TV shows right now other than all of your favorite Netflix programming? I know you love the rip. I'm just saying that Netflix. I know you love. What are you. What are your top ones? Is the Donnie Wahlberg show up there? Did it. Did you.

D (113:32)

No, I think it's mediocre. I like the three Chicago shows.

A (113:36)

Chica pd, Fire, the Chicago Marathon. What is it?

D (113:41)

Yeah, yeah, I'm into that.

A (113:43)

Police, Fire and Hospital. Are those the Three.

D (113:46)

I'm okay with that.

A (113:47)

Do they ever merge them where somebody sets a fire and the people end up in the hospital and then they have to solve it? It's all one three hour show that's coming up.

D (113:55)

I'll text you when it's the night it's going to happen.

A (113:58)

Oh, that's sounds exciting.

D (114:01)

Yeah. Again, you and I both love Landman. I thought you didn't think it pulled itself together at the end.

A (114:10)

I thought it was a four episode season. That was 10 episodes. They just padded a lot of stuff, which seems to be one of the moves now with the streamers. You don't watch industry, but industry's been amazing.

D (114:22)

No, I don't.

A (114:24)

And then both of us really liked the rip. I think that was my favorite.

D (114:29)

Yeah.

A (114:29)

Movie I've seen. I've been. I. I went back and I. I did a second tour of it and I liked it more the second time than the first time. Yeah, first time I think there was too much going on for me. The second time I was like, all right. But it was like an old school. You used to call them the five o'. Clockers. Yeah.

D (114:44)

This was a six o'. Clocker.

A (114:46)

Yeah, it was a five o'. Clocker. With better actors.

D (114:49)

Yeah, maybe. Yeah. I'll watch it again. I like your new channel. I like the stuff Netflix is producing.

A (114:57)

Oh, thanks for the Netflix. But wait, so. So I did the 50 most rewatchable movies of the 21st century at the end of last year, and it was controversial because I had limitless number 16. You love limitless?

D (115:12)

Not number 16, but you.

A (115:14)

You watched it a ton, though.

D (115:16)

I watched it a few times.

A (115:18)

Well, so what, What? Out of the ones that were on the list, what should have been on? Because Taken is a big one for you. All three equalizers you would have had.

D (115:27)

Oh, definitely. Getting Equalizer three was the best.

A (115:31)

I thought basically anything. Denzel, you're in.

D (115:35)

Or John Wick. Did you have all the John Wick?

A (115:37)

I had Wick two. Arguably could add Wick one as well.

D (115:40)

Oh, you have to have Wick one. It's all about the dog. Yeah. With one I wouldn't leave. I like Ballerina. I'm probably the only one in the country.

A (115:48)

But now Ballerina did all right.

D (115:53)

That whole genre, you know that. I like that genre.

A (115:56)

So it just would have been all. Yeah, yeah.

B (115:58)

All that.

D (115:59)

It would have been all that genre.

A (116:00)

All right, so you're going to make it through the gross winner and the terrible super bowl loss and get ready for Jason Tatum as We're talking.

D (116:09)

It's snowing here again.

A (116:11)

Oh, my God, this is just awful.

D (116:13)

Yeah, I'm looking forward to. To now I can look forward to Tatum coming back because it looks like that's going to happen and worry about the chemistry when he comes back and does Jaylen Brown take him back the same way?

A (116:29)

How did you like how the Devers trade ultimately turned out?

D (116:33)

Oh, my gosh. You and I killed the trade.

A (116:36)

It was a money dump. When they then had to do a second money dump of one of the guys that got in the trade, there's nobody left. They traded all three guys.

D (116:44)

But we've been told that they're going to use that money elsewhere.

A (116:47)

Right. Which they do.

D (116:49)

Which they have. Not yet. No. We didn't get the big thumper, which is what the papers are criticizing. We don't have the middle. We don't really have contrarisis. We don't have that middle of the order, outfielder or third baseman.

A (117:05)

It seems like. I don't know this for sure, but it seems like they're banking on Roman Anthony basically being their version of what happened with Drake May this year and that they don't need the expensive guy because this guy's going to be an MVP candidate.

D (117:19)

Possible him getting hurt really hurt our team. Obviously it hurt the summer.

A (117:26)

I was having a really fun time watching the team until he went down.

D (117:30)

And we really do get a sense. Is he going to be a power hitter? He certainly was a hitter.

A (117:35)

Yeah.

D (117:35)

But can he put up those Hamons? Yeah, people are excited about him. People are always excited when everybody's healthy. It's the injuries that start cropping up. I'd say our pitching staff looks pretty interesting, who they brought in the depth. And I did like the trade they made yesterday for the third baseman. But again, he's not a power hitter.

A (117:57)

That's pretty lukewarm on that one.

D (117:59)

And I think they're done.

A (118:02)

You know what they're not done doing is taking money from the fans.

D (118:06)

Well, most expensive ticket in baseball.

A (118:08)

They're not done with that. Send your checks here.

D (118:12)

I guess John Henry's still doing very well, money wise, right?

A (118:15)

Well, he just sold the Penguins for twice as much that he paid. And I'm sure they're in on this. If the Vegas expansion actually happens, they're probably saving money to be one of the ownership groups going after that.

D (118:27)

But it's just. It's inexplicable how they have stopped spending money after we won the title in 18.

A (118:35)

I would say it is explicable though, because they won four titles and they were like, we're good, you're welcome. And then they scaled back. I think they felt like they did what they needed to do.

D (118:48)

It's eight years later.

A (118:49)

I know. I'm aware. That's the traded Mookie bets. I don't know if you remember that.

D (118:56)

The Debers one didn't bother me as much because they promised they would re spend that money. Of course they didn't. The bets trade was an abomination.

A (119:03)

Also, the Debers maybe got out of that one in time. That might have been a good mulligan. They paid him a lot of money for a guy that not even sure what position he would have been two years from now.

D (119:16)

But the package they should have gotten back for a guy at his age with his stats, they didn't get that package back. You know, they just sold to the first bidder.

A (119:26)

It looked like, well, I know you. I know you saw Jacko this weekend, who has only won one World Series this century.

D (119:33)

I might have brought it up. How are the Yankees looking?

A (119:36)

We've won four times as many as him, so that was good. All right. Be careful in the cold weather out there. Good to see you.

B (119:42)

Okay.

D (119:42)

It was good seeing you this weekend.

A (119:43)

Thanks for popping on.

D (119:44)

Okay, bye.

A (119:45)

All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Nick and my dad and Gahal and Eduardo and everybody at the Ringer. I will be back on Thursday with one more podcast. It's going to be our live show that we haven't done yet, but I know it's going to be fantastic and I know you're going to enjoy it and I can't wait to do it. So we'll be back on Thursday with that new rewatch was coming next Monday. We're doing goldeneye. The last one that went up is Ace Ventura. Go check that out. I will see you on this feed on Thursday. Thanks. Must be 21 plus on President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 on President D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gamble problem. Call 100 Gambler, visit rg-help.com call 888-797-7777 or visit ccpg.org Chattinconenetic or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplianma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-Hopeny or text Hopeny in New York. For Louisiana, call 877-770-7867 this episode is brought to you by TaxAct. Like an expert coach, TaxAct offers step by step guidance and guaranteed accuracy when filing taxes. Get tips along the way. Add Expert Assist to talk to tax experts and let our experts do your taxes for you. With Expert full service, TaxAct helps you find the deductions and credits you deserve so you can get them over with. Visit taxact.com to learn more. Conditions apply. See taxact.com for details.