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The Bill Simmons Podcast
Winning QBs and Football Nerds With Mina Kimes, Plus Robert Redford’s Incredible Career With Brian Koppelman
01:47:24
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- [00:00]
A
This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Victory tastes pretty delicious, so you need something that's equally superior, and that's Michelob Ultra. It's the perfect way to cheer on the U.S. ryder cup team. And guess what? There's a chance you could see all of your favorite golfers in person. As you know, I've gone to Augusta many times over the last decade. Our favorite hole to stand by is the 10th hole, because you're right there. You can watch them try to read the greens. You can watch the approaches. So when you're greenside, it's the best. Join Michelob Ultra Greenside for a chance to win a trip to the Ryder Cup. Wow. Rounds at TPC courses, gear and more. Michelob Ultra, the official beer sponsor of the Ryder Cup. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2025 Anheuser Busch. Michelob Ultra Light Beer, St. Louis, MO Michelob Ultra Greenside. No purchase necessary. Open to US residents 21/ends on November 30, 2025. Multiple entry periods. Visit www.mcglobalcher.com superioraccess greenside for free entry, entry deadlines and official rules. The Bill Simmons Podcast brought to you by FanDuel Sportsbook. We are also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where I put up a new rewatchables. We did? What do we do? Oh, Tin Cup. Yeah, it was me and Joe House and Craig Horlbeck. We taped it last month. We dressed like golfers. My buddy Jacko was in town. We made him the executive producer and he had a mic he was chiming in. Great times all around. Really fun movie. It's aged nicely. Still can't believe the ending. In the theater when it happened, it was just like, why did they end the movie this way? And now, 30 years later, kind of like it. Anyway, you can find that on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel or as a video podcast on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Prestige tv. I'm on there talking about Task every week with Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney as well, if you like that show. And you should, because if you're watching this podcast, you probably like television and this is a very good television show. So you can find me on there. Coming up on this podcast, old friend Mina Kimes dropped by to talk a lot of different NFL subplots as we have finished two weeks of the NFL season. And then Robert Redford died today. Unbelievable. So I got Bryant Koppelman, another longtime friend, to talk about his career and some of the lessons from it. So that's the podcast. Today we're going to take a break and then we're going to Pearl Jam and then Mina Kimes NFL. Next it's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel. And the NFL is back. And thank God FanDuel has everything. They got an awesome app. They have SGPs, they have great futures, they have good prop bets, live betting your way Bets Clean app. It's great to use. Been using it for a few years. Every time I go back to Boston or any place that has Fando and I get to use it, I'm always excited. I'm on an airplane Runway. You done the airplane Runway? Airplane Runway. There should be a button. The Runway. I'm on the airplane Runway. I got to get this in. Get your bets in. Build something bold, make every game feel bigger. Download the FanDuel app or head to FanDuel.com BS to get started. The Ringer committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and help lines available and listen to the end of this episode for additional details. You must be 21 plus in President select states or 18 plus in President DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Game problem. Call 1-800- Gamble or visit rg-help.com call 1-887-89777 or visit ccpg.org chatinconnecticut paid end all right, I am recording this. It is mid afternoon on the east coast. Mina Kimes is on the west coast. We got tv Mina today because she's doing TV later. We were texting last night. I was groggy. Watching two Monday Night Football games in a row. Raiders, Chargers going on forever. Gino is just sailing passes all over the place. And we were texting and I was like, we should do a pod. We haven't done a pod in a while. Good to see you. Hope all is well. Everything good.
- [04:30]
B
You know, aside from Gino having a bit of a meltdown, it's kind of brave for me to come on, by the way, after a Geno clunker. We had a support group meeting this morning. Steven Ruiz called it. Everybody was in attendance. We've all agreed to settle on the Chargers defense's elite defense.
- [04:50]
A
I can't get there with that one. I just think Geno does that.
- [04:54]
B
Yeah, once a year.
- [04:55]
A
Twice a year. You just kind of know it's like a child melting down in an airplane. You just kind of know it's going to happen at some point.
- [05:01]
B
The weirdest part for me was the Mrs. Because like the interceptions, you know, there's an arm punt and he's always going to attempt tight window throws. Sometimes he shouldn't. But the misses downfield, there were a few of them were pretty uncharacteristic. I really do think the Chargers defense is elite though. Are you not? I was joking about the excuse, but are you not there yet with them or.
- [05:22]
A
No. I thought they showed what they needed to show yesterday, but I thought Geno left a bunch of stuff on the table, especially in the second half. Like he had Bowers when they were driving. It seemed at least they were gonna need a backdoor cover. He had Bowers over the middle a couple times. He was sailing balls high, throwing balls into triple coverage. It was just you, you live through this. As a Seahawks fan, this is just kind of what he does. And I think maybe their destiny is just twice this year they're going to beat a really good team. They're going to have a game like last week against the Pats and then they're just going to have stinkers and they're going to be all over the place.
- [05:55]
B
A little bit of salty after watching the Pats get beat down by him. No, I think you're right. I also, I also think what really jumped out is If Bowers isn't 100% and he's clearly not, they just do not have the horses at wide receiver to compete. As much as I love Jacoby Myers and especially with a quarterback like Gino who's going to give your receiver a chance in one on ones, it just felt like they had. They the receivers were not winning against again, an exceptionally well coached and talented Chargers secondary.
- [06:24]
A
I'm going to whisper this because it's not a take. Genti seems small in that game yesterday and I know that's part of the package and he's a little guy and we've seen a lot of little guys succeed. But you know that Charger is a big physical defense and it just, it, it, it was notable. I don't know. I'm not going to overreact to it yet. I am going to overreact to a couple of the topics that we, we have. I sent you some questions. I'm excited to hit some of these, especially the last one. But as the queen of the football nerds, I think that's your official title. What is the nerdiest football nerd thing percolating right now that's bringing out your full football nerd two weeks in?
- [07:04]
B
This isn't actually that nerdy per se, but a thing That I am obsessed with and Dan Orlovsky and I talked about this before the season. We did like an offensive trends podcast is just the number of teams that are almost measuring in two tight end offenses right now. Just through the first two weeks of the season, offenses have used two tight ends, 12 personnel, 25% of the time, which is the highest ever. Like, that's a historic rate. Even five, six years ago, it was way less than that. And I think there's like a number of reasons for that. But it's like the really good teams as well, right? Green Bay with Tucker Kraft, obviously. The Ravens are a good example. Arizona has Trey McBride Bowers when he's healthy. So there's really, really good tight ends now. But I also think it's a product of just how defense has gone over the last 10 years or so, getting lighter, playing more sub packages. So offense is this kind of part of offense is pushing back. And it's been fun to watch because I think these tight ends are really good, really, really talented.
- [08:04]
A
Do you think that's why it. I haven't seen the numbers one way or the other, but do you think this is why scoring feels down a little bit, even though offense seems as competent as ever? Because we have more 12 stuff and longer drives versus like the explosive stuff.
- [08:22]
B
I don't know if scoring is down, but as far as like the explosive thing, that's like a multi year trend for sure. I mean, I mentioned the Chargers. I think that's kind of. They're kind of a good microcosm for why that might be happening or why defenses have gotten so good at limiting explosives. I mean, through two games, Chargers are allowing three air yards per attempt, which is granted, you know, you had the Chiefs, but as you saw week one, the Raiders can bomb it and they just kept everything in front of them. They tackle so well, they communicate so well. And like the best defenses, the Chargers, the Packers, the Eagles, I think you saw them bounce back. They're just really good at keeping everything in front of them and tackling that way.
- [09:05]
A
Yeah, well, the other thing with the 12 personnel, I've noticed you mentioned a bunch of tight ends when you were listing the good ones. And we have a lot of good ones and we also have a lot of good second tier good tight ends. I like that guy in the Jaguar Strange. I think he's good. It feels like there's like 12 of those guys and he can block too.
- [09:23]
B
Like, so that's the other thing about the 12 personnel. It really only works. So if you're going against these lighter body defenses and who don't have, you know, they've gone in that direction over the last few years to stop high powered passing attacks. This goes back to the Pats and them changing football in that way. If you want to be able to take advantage of mismatches, you really do have to at least be a threat to run. So you have to have at least one tight end who can block so that when you're on the field, if defenses come out lights cool, we're going to use our big guys and just run the ball down your throats in nickel or dime, right? Strange is one of them ones like he can block. You're already seeing that. Kraft in Green Bay is another great example of that. Such a good blocker. He's like such a throwback tight end to me and I think you're seeing a few of those guys around the league right now and this year. I mean, good God, Tyler Warren, have you been watching?
- [10:13]
A
I think if you're just redoing the draft or criticizing the Hunter thing is I think has a chance to be a real disaster just for what they gave up on him. I'm not saying where he went in the draft as much as all the assets they give up, but Chicago not taking Tyler Warren. When people for most of the college football season then leading up to the draft process were like, Tyler Warren, he's going to be fucking awesome. He's the best tight end. And then there was this weird late surge from Loveland and then the Bears take Loveland and he falls to the Colts at 14, which is like him falling to 14 and Igbuka falling at 19 feels like a miracle now, but Warren's just like a beast.
- [10:51]
B
Jesus, Warren, like to. You're completely right. I think everybody kind of overthought it and I also think he passes the Could a person who's never watched football put on a game and immediately say that's the best player on the field? Watching him in college because he just took over games and did everything. Obviously, whether it was wildcatting yards after the catch, he often was the entire offense. And in retrospect it does feel a little silly that the not only took over games against elite competition, of course he's awesome. But yeah, I think people I'm not out on Loveland entirely. I don't think he's even like top 10 and the reasons why that offense is struggling right now. But yeah, Tyler Warren just looks like a superstar to me.
- [11:34]
A
I did a lot of work on him When I threw myself into the draft, casual college football fan Bill. But I thinking the Pats might trade back, like, two, three spots. And then we're going to be in that Mason Graham, Tyler, Warren thing. And I was like, if we got this guy, this guy's very gronkish. I would never compare anyone and just say, that's the next Gronk, because there will never be another Gronk. But there was some Gronk vicinity stuff he was doing, so Colts had to be delighted. He's, like, perfect for them.
- [12:00]
B
He looks amazing. Are you feeling better about missing out on Hunter? You talked about Hunter and getting Will Campbell through two weeks of season.
- [12:10]
A
I wanted Carter. I think Carter was the prize.
- [12:14]
B
Yeah. All right.
- [12:15]
A
Yeah, I would have. I never. The Hunter thing, I don't like things that I haven't seen before, just in anything in any capacity in life, like technology. When there's some, like, new car that came out or some new iPhone that they've created out of thin air, I'm like, I kind of want to see it work before I know it's going to.
- [12:35]
B
And just beast on football games.
- [12:37]
A
You just. I'm saying, Hunter, who did this in college, is now going to do this in the pros for 17 games a year against the biggest, strongest, best athletes we have in the world. I was just a little dubious.
- [12:48]
B
The thing that really, I feel like maybe was underplayed, too, during the off season was most NFL players were dubious of it. Like, there were all these quotes from actual players on both sides of the ball who were kind of skeptical of it, and it's way too early, obviously, to come up with. But he has not been made the impact you would have liked to see from a guy drafted that high. And you do wonder if the demands on him are too much at this point in his career. I think it's a completely legitimate question.
- [13:20]
A
On our ringer fantasy football show, the guys were joking that he's expensive Wanda Robinson, and then decided it was actually an insult to Wanda Robinson, because Wanda Robinson was really good this last week, and he was like, if Travis Hunter could be as good as Wandell Robinson, I think the prototype for me, because when the. When the Pats are doing the SEDELMAN in the mid 2000s, they were using him as, like this nickel dimeback and then as a receiver, and he was playing both sides, but there was less responsibility on the defense. And I think that's kind of where this would have to go, where you're basically just covering slot guys or you're in playing a zone in one area on one side, and then you're just doing a receiver stuff.
- [13:59]
B
It never made sense to me that somebody would just play a little bit of corner. I actually thought the reverse made more sense. Right.
- [14:06]
A
Like just his full time corner with like a little receiver.
- [14:09]
B
Yeah, you bring him in on maybe like for big plays or in the red zone or on screens, if that's what you want to use him the way you want to use him. But I thought like it's so hard to play cornerback in the NFL. You have to study so many things, not just scheme like individual players tendencies. It's, it's tricky. So yeah, it might look better much later on than it does earlier. And I think that's completely within the realm of possibility for Travis Hunter.
- [14:34]
A
Well, after he probably looked at the king of the hospital balls, Trevor Lawrence for a couple months, he's probably like, I should play defense. Defense looks great. I don't have to go across the middle with some balls sailing over my head and two safeties targeting me.
- [14:49]
B
One of your other questions kind of hit on the divisive while you set it up. But Lawrence isn't even divisive at this point though. Right. It feels like people are pretty critical of him.
- [14:59]
A
He deserves all the criticism. Just play well and do well in the red zone. Just fix those two things. Don't sail balls into traffic and hurt your receivers and don't screw up in the red zone. I'm going to give you a part. I think I count as a partial nerd.
- [15:13]
B
Yeah, of course.
- [15:14]
A
I was doing a lot of DVOA stuff back in the day. I was having Aaron shots on the pod. I think this kickoffs thing is nuts. And I don't know how nerdy of a topic of this or just a football thing, but it feels like a kickoff. If 52 year old Belichick was coaching right now, not North Carolina, near the tail end, dating a 26 year old Belichick, I think he would have spent so much time on this kickoff thing and felt like this was the greatest inefficiency to exploit. We're seeing kickoff returns all the time. We're seeing the way people actually kick the ball off with these angles and stuff. I just think he would have absolutely loved it. And I think it's had a dramatic difference. Like somebody kicked the ball in the end zone last night in the first game and it was like the ball goes out to the 35. It's like the 35. Like that's. I may as well just kick it out of bounds and put it in the 40 at that point. But I was surprised how impactful it was. What about you?
- [16:11]
B
It's completely impactful. You're getting way more returns, which is what they. It was interesting how much just that 5 yard tweak affected the return rate. Right. Because last year a lot of coaches were like, screw it, let's just kick it in zone. And this year, you know, 35 is just too. It's just such a difference. It's just five yards, but there's such a difference, especially with these kickers. Right. Who are banging it from 60 right now. You don't even have to go that far to put up points on the board.
- [16:35]
A
Dallas is in fieldwork position with one first down.
- [16:39]
B
That was crazy when they ran the draw to just set him up for 64 yards.
- [16:46]
A
I've never seen anything like that. The Javante to the left for 4 yards.
- [16:50]
B
Back to the kickoff, though. Are you pro or are you aligned with the president here who's very. He seems very upset about the kickoff.
- [17:01]
A
He was. He called. What did he call it? Sissy football.
- [17:04]
B
Yeah. Which is that actually, dare I have an opinion on this. You're seeing more collisions and more action. So it's not more. You can say it's weird, but it's certainly not.
- [17:15]
A
Yeah, Sissy is not the. Yeah, I wouldn't have used that phrase. But I think they overdid it and next year they'll unwind it back. But I think it's too much of an advantage now. But I like the spirit of it. I thought it sucked. Watching kickoffs wasn't fun. It was like, oh, cool, the guy downed in the end zone again. Now it's now you don't want to miss it. You don't want to go to the bathroom if there's going to be a kickoff, especially with certain teams. But I think just taking it to the 35 is at that point. Here's the thing. This is where the Larry David rule of let's just get rid of field goal kickers would make this more interesting if we had the kickoff rule combined with no field goals for the first three quarters of the game or something. Then it's like, okay, they started 35, but they still have to go 65 to score. Now I'm a little more now the balance feels better, but they'll never do that.
- [18:06]
B
I feel like in 10 years, not even 20, they're going to look back people who started watching football now or even recently, and they'll be in disbelief that it was ever done the other way, that it was just a touchback city. I actually like field goals. I think it gets maligned because it's not really football and it's soccer players and whatever, and how many teams have been felled by being great teams that have had kickers. But I think it adds a level of drama. It's one of the many things that adds a level of drama to NFL games that it's kind of unmatched.
- [18:39]
A
What if I gave you a limit? You could only kick four field goals.
- [18:43]
B
In a game that I don't. That would be so funny to watch the amount of mistakes that coaches make.
- [18:49]
A
In managing, trying to figure it out, or setting up a field goal and not realizing they already passed the limit for it. I was thinking about that with the Colts game. That would have been a fun wrinkle. I was like, well, they can't kick their fifth.
- [19:00]
B
Oh, my God.
- [19:01]
A
Because they've already kicked four.
- [19:02]
B
Right.
- [19:02]
A
So they're going to have to go for this. All right, that's. That's what I mean.
- [19:05]
B
When would you use up your field goals? Yeah, I actually like that idea.
- [19:08]
A
Bonus topic. I didn't send this one to you.
- [19:10]
B
Oh, boy.
- [19:12]
A
It's just became a story today, and I always judge it by. If I'm getting texts about something from random people in my life, then that must mean something's happening. Tom Brady. Is this cheating that he's in the Fox booth. But then also, you've done these games. I've done the basketball version of it, where you get to meet the coach and talk about the players. It's a little overrated. It's not like they're like, here's our game plan. It's more stuff like, we really like. We really like Tucker Kraft. He's been. He's been a pleasant surprise. It's not, here's our game plan. But what do you think of Tom Brady being able to do this?
- [19:47]
B
I am a little surprised by how upset people are about the competitive integrity side of it because of what you said. So, obviously, preseason gives it very different. But I was kind of asked. I asked Dan last night, like, so have you ever really gotten something in a production meeting where you felt like, whoa, I can't believe they're telling us this. And, no, you're right. It's pretty mundane stuff. So I don't feel like he's compromising, like he has an unfair advantage for his team. I think if anyone should be bothered by it, I suppose it would be the perception of bias in the booth. Maybe from a media perspective, if you feel like. If anything, I think he's probably going to go out of his way to be nice to divisional opponents when he's calling games. That would be my guess. But, um, yeah, I don't, I don't really see the edge. It's. I think it bothers people because it, it not because of the substance of it, but because of the appearance of just like, oh, he's above the rules. Right. Like, of course Tom Brady gets allowed to do it. I don't think the actual substance of it is that bad.
- [20:46]
A
I agree with you. I remember I did. I announced the Lakers game when Mike d' Antonio was the coach. And it's not like he was telling us a lot, but what you do get is the vibe of the coach about his team because they feel more comfortable, right. You're coming into their space. And he didn't. His team wasn't good. He couldn't have been more candid about that, off the record. So you just kind of absorb that and be like, ah, he doesn't think his team's very good. But then if they mention a player like, I'm really excited about this guy, he's made big strides, you're like, okay, you file that away. And then when you're talking about the game, you're like, Mike. And that's how you hear that. When we talked to Mike before, he told us he really liked how so. And so was. Was playing. You're not getting. They might tell you one thing, like Collinsworth will be like, they told us they were going to try that before the game. Right. Some sort of double pass or something.
- [21:36]
B
Yeah, right.
- [21:37]
A
Other than that, they're not giving you game strategy. Like, we think we can throw in the Chargers over the middle. They're never telling an announcer that.
- [21:43]
B
How often does they really like this guy from the summer, like pan out.
- [21:47]
A
To feel like, well, that with the Pats, with Booty, they were doing that all summer. And then, yeah, then he actually like they throw to him and he makes plays. So that. That wasn't a lie.
- [21:59]
B
Yeah, they kept telling me, not they, anyone of the Patriots, but my friends who cover that team kept saying he's the X receiver in this offense. And I was really skeptical of it. But through two weeks, he definitely looks like the X receiver. I thought the, the. He caught like a back shoulder ball in this last game was really impressive.
- [22:17]
A
Well, the thing with him was he was a first round pick for a while and then he had some off the field stuff. And it knocked him down. And a lot of times in football, those guys, somebody takes a flyer on them, you keep your fingers crossed. Then there's like the Jalen Carter situation where they just fall a couple picks, but for the most part, it's a Jack Jones thing where the guy starts just bouncing around. But they actually seem like they might have lucked out with him. All right, so we both agree. Not a big deal. This Tom Brady thing.
- [22:44]
B
I get why people don't like it. I just am not that worked up about the competitive part of it.
- [22:51]
A
How excited can I be for Drake May right now? Two games in the season. On a scale of 1 to 10.
- [22:55]
B
Did we make it 20 minutes before you brought up.
- [22:58]
A
We were going to do a break. I thought this would be a quick appetizer for the bigger topic we have.
- [23:04]
B
He looked really good this weekend. The Miami Dolphins tax, or I guess benefit, whatever the opposite of a tax is, is real. That defense is God awful.
- [23:15]
A
Yeah, they can pass rush on 3rd and 8th. That's about it.
- [23:18]
B
It's weird how bad the pass rush is because that was supposed to be the good part of the team. Right. We knew that they had a horrible secondary, but, like, the pass rush was supposed to be good. He made some really impressive throws in this game. The throw to Stevenson on third down, one of the best throws of his career on the money, by the way. Amazing catch, too. Stevenson's pretty good. I was really encouraged watching the offense just like as a whole, not just May, because I felt like week one against the Raiders. It didn't feel like. Felt like they didn't quite have an identity and they weren't Josh McDaniels. Right. And him kind of feeling each other out. It was, I thought, too much on May's shoulders, this one. It felt like, okay, we're really building the play action passing attack down. We've got the power running game that has been kind of McDaniel's hallmark and may was hitting almost everything off of it. So I think that marriage is going to be key to whether or not this works out. I am lower on the pats than you. I think that Pats defense is pretty concerning to me, but.
- [24:18]
A
Well, we don't have all our guys yet. Mina.
- [24:20]
B
Yeah, no, Christian Gonzalez is pretty massive.
- [24:22]
A
Not only. No Christian Gonzalez. No. No word on Christian Gonzalez.
- [24:26]
B
What's up with that?
- [24:27]
A
I don't know.
- [24:27]
B
That one snuck up on me. I didn't even know the season started and it was like, Christian Gonzalez isn't playing.
- [24:32]
A
Is he in Massachusetts? Is he in America. Where is he? He got hurt in end of July. Yeah, but that's. We've seen some cornerbacks go down this year. I mean the Bears. The Bears are in a situation brutal right now. It's still going. All right, we're going to take a quick break and then have a big QB thing for you.
- [24:49]
B
Love it.
- [24:50]
A
The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel football fans. Every NFL Thursday is your chance to hit the jackpot on FanDuel. Because with FanDuel's Thursday touchdown jackpot, you can win a share of $2 million of bonus bets this week. Get in on Thursday. All you have to do is place an anytime touchdown score a bit before the game before the Dolphins and Bills kick off, and if your player scores the first or last three of the game, you'll win your bet plus a share of bonus bets. I almost hit this last week. I gave you Tucker Kraft. He did score and then there was a touchdown right after and I missed it. I'm giving you James Cook this week. I liked how he looked against the Jets. He looked super fast. Miami especially getting maybe the cheap touchdown to cement the game when it's 38 to 10. Buffalo. James Cook is my pick this Thursday. Any play can be your play of the game with FanDuel. FanDuel.com BS for your chance to win a share of $2 million of bonus bets, play your game with FanDuel. An official sports betting partner of the NFL must be 21 + President select states or 18 + in President D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in must apply profit boost token on select market prize pool to be split equally among all eligible participants who made the corre first or last TD pick bonus issued as non withdrawable bonus batch which expires 21 days after receipt restrictions. Apply seat termsportsbook.fanduel.com, gAM problem, call 100 Gamble or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by NFL Sunday Ticket My friend, NFL Sundays are back. You won't want to miss the action. NFL Sunday Ticket and YouTube TV another friend of mine lets you catch every game every Sunday all in one place. And now get NFL Sunday Ticket month to month and cancel anytime. Head to YouTube.com BS and sign up now. Local National Games on YouTube TV NFL Sunday Ticket for out of market games excludes digital only games and commercial use. If you cancel YouTube TV you will lose access to NFL Sunday ticket Terms of bargos device and content restrictions apply. Commercial use excluded. Renews every month during the 2025 regular season. Cancel anytime. All right, QB appetizer question. Why can't we admit that Josh and Lamar are the two best regular season quarterbacks that we have? Why are we still holding onto this Mahomes thing when it's three long balls over people's heads and they're scoring 21 points a game? Now for this will be your three.
- [27:12]
B
I think with Mahomes, it feels like trying to catch a falling knife where nobody wants to, like, just completely miss it. Right. The timing of it. And also, it is so obvious that his circumstances are so much worse. I know he overthrew a couple deep balls and he has not been connecting that well. The thing about deep balls, though, is, like, you don't. It requires like, pass protection, has to hold up. The guy has to be in the right place. He's throwing it, Bill. It's. Tyquan Thornton is their number one deep threat as a.
- [27:51]
A
They have two guys. We waved.
- [27:53]
B
Yeah. So there's your answer. It's Tyquan Thornton. I mean, it's. It's just. And I, Joshua Lamar, are the two best quarterbacks in football right now. I don't disagree with you. I'm just trying to answer your question. Those guys both have dominant rushing attacks and really good offensive lines. And they don't have world beaters, but they have good pass catching options. Yeah, I mean, Mahomes is like, where would you rank his situation right now as a quarterback? Around the NFL, everything. Run game, offensive line, skill players.
- [28:23]
A
I know, but Brady was in this situation six years in his career, in his prime.
- [28:28]
B
There it is.
- [28:29]
A
He. It's true. We had the famous Rashe Caldwell year. Rashe Caldwell, Jabbar Gaffney, with Benjamin Watson as the tight end. Like it was. That was the worst. We almost won the super bowl that year with that.
- [28:41]
B
Caldwell's the one who went to. Had a weird crime, right? Am I misremembering that he had very possible.
- [28:47]
A
Well, his. His big crime was the AFC title game for Pat's fans. But.
- [28:54]
B
Okay. But it was bad last year and he went to the goddamn Super Bowl. That's why nobody wants to call it on Mahomes, because last year we were calling it and he freaking beat. He went to the end.
- [29:06]
A
I just think there's two different conversations. One is, who would you want for one game or one quarter? And then one is, who would you want for a season? And at this point, he's just. I don't even. I mean it's Alan and Lamar for MVP and Jordan Love if they win 14 to 15 games. Herbert is like a dark horse now, but I don't see a scenario Mahomes is going to be in that conversation with the team. He has if they.
- [29:32]
C
Do you.
- [29:32]
B
Does any part of you believe if Mahomes was on those other two teams that those offenses wouldn't be dominant?
- [29:39]
A
Well, so this is a great question because this is one of my MVP things that I do for NBA where if you just flip the guys, what happens If Allen was on the Chiefs, they would not be worse. I'll just say that. And I think there's some stuff that would happen, at least for the regular season that would not be worse. Lamar is an interesting one because, you know, they have this amazing running situation with the line and with Henry, I think they know what their offense is with him completely. So if you just like transferred that, I think it would be a little clumsy. But I just think Josh is the best guy in the league and this is why I picked him in the Super Bowl. I can't believe I bet against them last week with the fucking Jets. I'm still mad at myself, but I think he's going to get one. I just really not to do shitty sports content, but I just think he's going to get one. He's too good. You know, it's like. It's like Jokic Giannis in the NBA. Like I don't see how he doesn't win a Super bowl at some point.
- [30:37]
B
I think the Bills and the Ravens are just so in a tear on their own right now in the afc. So you could be either of those guys and it would be completely believable to me. I just think with Mahomes like. Okay, so the other question I asked, who's got a worse. Who's got a worst at quarterback? Tell me which quarterback is in a worse situation right now. Terms of like the infrastructure rather.
- [31:01]
A
But as part of that infrastructure though, you have to count in. I've had the same offense for eight years. I've had the same coaching situation and the same everything like that matters a little bit. There's some sort of stability there.
- [31:14]
B
Is the run game good? I mean I would not slander Andy Reid. He is still one of the best coaches in the NFL. But like, let me kind of dumb it down. Is there an offense that's less pleasant to watch right now?
- [31:29]
A
No, only the Eagles. Just because the Eagles actually have some talent. It is. It's funny though that he's replicating this weird stretch of Brady's career where he was so good that they just felt like they could throw away the talent at all these, you know, seemingly important offensive positions. And it like their running backs are terrible. There's not a single running back that you think can even bust a 10 yard run at this point.
- [31:53]
B
That's. If I had to criticize them for like a roster perspective, that would. That's the one thing that jumps out to me because, you know, we can't kind of talk about both sides of both sides of our mouth. Pardon me, and criticize the Bengals for not investing at all in their offensive line and paying these two great receivers, but then also say, well, the Chiefs chose to focus on the trenches and not receiver and not their skill players. You know, it's a different strategy. The running back thing though, to me, like you can get, you can find a cool running back in the fifth round, right? Like, why not try? Yeah, I harder in the mid rounds. I would have drafted someone. I don't know. It looks. The whole run game right now looks so bad.
- [32:34]
A
Well, he's at an interesting point in his career because he is the run game. I do think he's been passed by those guys at least from a week to week. Just when you're watching football, he just seems like he's less impactful than some of these other guys and more in that like Jordan Love area, which for somebody that we were saying had a chance to be the best guy of all time, lost a little momentum. So I'm just, I'm monitoring it anyway. How many 2025 QBs in your mind can conceivably win a 2025 playoff game? And Mahomes is definitely one of them and so is Allen and Lamar and so is Jalen Hurts, who just won the super bowl and so is. I think Jordan Love has to be there just because his team's so good. I'd be shocked if they didn't win a playoff game. So there's five. Would you still put Stafford on the list from what you've seen from him physically?
- [33:25]
B
Oh my God, yes. Oh, he is like making some of the best throws of any quarterback early on. He looks unbelievable.
- [33:33]
A
I have him as well. There's six. Goff has to be on there because he's won playoff games. Ironically, Mayfield is 100% on there. And you saw again last night, not only has he won playoff games, not only has that team been successful, but they'd go down five with two minutes Left. I'm like, I feel like they're going to win. I believe in that dude. Right. He pulls off that big 4th and 10. But it's crazy that that guy got waived twice.
- [34:00]
B
I know.
- [34:01]
A
And is now as reliable. You must love him.
- [34:03]
B
I love watching him. I love watching that offense. I mean, the combination of backs. Bucky Irving and Rashad White, they basically salted that thing away. And behind, you know, they had like a center playing left tackle. They lost the right tackle going up against one of the best defenses in all of football. And they were grinding them down. Irving in the catch game as well. But yeah, I think Bayfield's definitely in that category. Jane Daniels, did you mention them already?
- [34:28]
A
Yeah, I had. The next two I had were Purdy and Daniels. Just. Cause they both done it. So there's nine, there's nine guys we think can conceivably win a 20, 25 playoff game. Now we get, now the fun part starts. Justin Herbert.
- [34:42]
B
Well, you left out Dak. I would put Dak in there too.
- [34:44]
A
I, I, I didn't get to him yet.
- [34:46]
B
Oh, so sorry. You're in your no.
- [34:47]
A
1 Justin Herbert.
- [34:48]
B
That was one tier. Okay, we're in now we're in the debate tier.
- [34:51]
A
Okay, so the debate tier. Justin Herbert.
- [34:54]
B
A hundred percent. Yes.
- [34:56]
A
I think I have them too. But I mean, this was a side sidebar question. But he's, he's now the most polarizing quarterback of this decade. I think Dak had the title for a couple years and now Herbert just has it because people are so passionate about it.
- [35:10]
B
You think? Cause I feel like that is the week one against Kansas City was such a strong showing. He was so good in that game. It felt like the device, like if it was 60 pro 40 ante anti Herbert. I feel like it moved to 70, 30 after that game.
- [35:28]
A
Well. Cause there's the potential camp and the, I see things that once this team is better and then there's just like the results camp, which was where I was more in. It's like, okay, well if he's one of the seven best guys in the league, can he win a playoff game? Can he do this consistently? Let's see it. Let's see him win 12 games yesterday. He's awesome for two and a half quarters. And then he kind of slipped back into the other Justin Herbert for the fourth quarter and did some weird stuff. Had some bad throws. Should have gotten picked once. Kept trying to have the Raiders hang around in that game. And I was like, man, you had us.
- [36:07]
B
Yeah, they kind of chargers A little bit in that one.
- [36:11]
A
They did.
- [36:11]
B
But I think the defense is so good that there's like a floor for this team right now.
- [36:18]
A
Yeah, I agree.
- [36:18]
B
I also like the way he's playing this year. He's scrambling way more. He's little feistier out there. He's. Herbert's a no doubter for me. Can win a playoff game.
- [36:28]
A
I think he's won me over at least for winning one playoff game. Dak Prescott, who's never won a playoff game. Has he won a playoff game?
- [36:36]
B
He. Dude, he put up one of the alt. He destroyed the Bucs in the wild card round. It was there that year.
- [36:41]
A
That's right. He's won a wild card game. He's never gotten past round one though, right? No, I think that's what it is.
- [36:48]
B
Yeah. He's never won. Gotten past that.
- [36:50]
A
I have him on the list routinely. There's this now it gets really interesting. 42 year old Aaron Rogers.
- [36:59]
B
I don't think so.
- [37:02]
A
I'm out as well. I think it's a just a no. Did. Did you see what he looked like when they're. Well, of course you did. It was your team.
- [37:09]
B
Yeah.
- [37:10]
A
When they're actually pressuring him, it was not good.
- [37:13]
B
So there's. He still is capable of making some of the most impressive throws off platform. You'll see. Right. Like. And you see them kind of go viral the next week. But the consistency when he has to hold the ball for more than two and a half seconds is simply not there.
- [37:32]
A
And I think I will say he's moving a little better than I was expecting this season. I think he looks better this year than last year.
- [37:37]
B
There's no question he made some really impressive throws on the run in this game. But for me, when I say I don't see them winning a playoff game, it's about the team. It's not just Aaron. So if you have a quarterback who's. He can still make some really impressive throws. He's still really good on quick game. He saw that in week one against what looks like a pretty bad jets defense. Okay, you can win that way, but you got to be able to run the football. You need more than one playmaker and you need a good defense. And holy smokes, that defense looks really bad the first two weeks of this, which is kind of shocking.
- [38:08]
A
Yeah. And Heisman started to hurt, but you know, it's not. It's shocking. But it's also not shocking because the seeds were being planted last year down the stretch. Right?
- [38:16]
B
Yeah. They got spanked by the green.
- [38:17]
A
Remember that? All of a sudden they just died. And they and Watt didn't get a sack for like the last month and plus of the season.
- [38:24]
B
I mean, your beloved Seattle Seahawks just ran all over them in that game. Kenneth Walker looked incredible.
- [38:32]
A
Walker was great. There's just going to be no way to figure out who's going to be good game to game between Walker and Charbonnet, though.
- [38:38]
B
All right.
- [38:39]
A
Like, if you're juggling those guys in fantasy, good luck. Good luck. Like, Charbonnet was terrible in Pittsburgh and he'll probably have 120 yards this next game. All right. Rodgers were out. Gimpy Joe Burrow coming off a major turf toe injury on a Bengals team that probably isn't winning nine games. I think he's a cross off just for this year.
- [38:58]
B
Yeah.
- [38:59]
A
All right. Now it gets really interesting. Can Bo Knicks win a playoff game in your life?
- [39:05]
B
Ooh, this is the one I was dreading. I think he is. You talked about Herbert. I think he's going to be the most divisive quarterback maybe for like.
- [39:11]
A
It's already happening.
- [39:12]
B
It's happening. Yeah.
- [39:13]
A
Yeah, he took the torch.
- [39:16]
B
He looked better.
- [39:17]
A
I have a lot of Broncos capital for this year, and I'm officially nervous.
- [39:22]
B
Yeah, he looked better, I thought, in.
- [39:25]
A
Week two, but, well, better from a guy that had four turnovers in week one.
- [39:30]
B
Yeah, I do worry. The premise for the Broncos, for me this year being really good was the defense would continue to be elite and then they would be able to really run the ball better behind a great offensive line. They invested a lot in looks okay early on, but it feels like there's still a ceiling on the offense, and so you really need the defense to avoid regression. And they just got carved up by Danny Dimes.
- [39:54]
A
Shocking.
- [39:56]
B
That was stunning to me, although shocking.
- [40:00]
A
But on the other hand, we talked about Tyler Warren earlier and how he's just immediately good. Taylor looks like, I think the. Maybe the best he's ever looked. Like just. He just looks the fastest, the shiftiest.
- [40:13]
B
Just everything you really saw, like, the weakness he really exposed, I thought the weakness of the Broncos defense, which is the linebacker unit. Dre Greenlaw has him playing because they got him on those backers vertically. And like, one of my. I think it's too early to take a Daniel Jones victory lap. Not me. For people who are supporters of him, but it's not too early for me to take a nail on being very skeptical of why the Colts. It wasn't about Whit Richardson for me. It was. I thought, well, there's clearly a ceiling on his offense with Danny Dimes. Like you really, as a Colts fan, you want to go into the season. And I think Shane Steichen looked at him and saw a quarterback who could actually execute his offense. And his offense is really good. He's a really good play caller. So that even if I think Jones is going to come back to earth a little bit, particularly on the downfield stuff and under pressure, but he can just run that offense. Is he on this list, by the way? Are we. Are we going to get to him.
- [41:10]
A
Because he is on the list?
- [41:12]
B
Yes.
- [41:16]
A
Well, he did already win a playoff game.
- [41:18]
B
True. And he looked worse that year to me.
- [41:22]
A
It's so funny. Cause nobody wanted to pick Houston to win the AFC South. Right. We're all doing the three in, three out rule. I need. I need to get a couple playoff teams out, put a couple in. And we all stared at Indianapolis. I remember I was listening to Nate and Shield did a pod and they talked about it and I was just like, I have my train ticket thinking about this and I couldn't get there because of Jones. But you think like, they can block for him. He's got a good coordinator. They have actual weapons. And I would say they have one of the three or four best running backs.
- [41:55]
B
Totally fair.
- [41:56]
A
And Warren might be a top five tight end already or top six, top seven, whatever. He's at least somebody on third and four. He can get up and make a play. I don't know. I mean, they're the favorites in the division now. Especially after Houston goes 0 and 2 and Houston's line looked. Who has a worse line than Houston? Three teams.
- [42:15]
B
It's just so depressing to watch because it just feels like last year all over again. And it turns out taking offensive linemen from bad offensive lines in free agency isn't a good strategy for rebuilding. Yeah, I think AFC south is going to be pretty close. I think the other thing about the Colts that I like, though is I like the defense. I know that they had a little. They gave up some big plays to Bo Knicks. But I think Luannarmo was like the wrong coach for the Bengals. He might be the right coach for a defense that has more veterans. And that's what Indianapolis is.
- [42:52]
A
Yeah, I don't. I said on Sunday night, it's a. After the Saints going two and oh last year and we got like, whoa, look at this. And then it could be the rabbit team this year that just jumps out. I also thought they should have lost to Denver and they did lose and for some reason there was a weird leverage play. So if they're one and one, are we. Are we as excited? Probably not. CJ Stroud, I do not think will win a playoff game at least this year with that offensive line. I don't see a path.
- [43:20]
B
Yeah, I don't.
- [43:21]
A
Even if they sneak in, I don't see.
- [43:26]
B
Is. It was interesting to watch him last night too, in contrast with the Bucs offense because the Bucs offense also like they had makeshift offensive line and the Texans defensive line was just. They were just completely destroying them on the line of scrimmage. But Baker thought did a good job getting the ball quickly. They like schemed up a lot of successful screens and then the run game was still good. And it feels like Stroud has no easy buttons and I'm not completely exonerating him on some of the pressure stuff. And there's situations where he's probably holding the ball too long. But like what does everything he does in this offense have to be at like the hardest possible setting at all times? It's just feels exactly like last year.
- [44:04]
A
Good point. Yeah. It's like the all time feast or famine. Like how about just an eight yard pass to somebody? I have no for Stroud. I'm not going to say no for your guy, Sam Darnold, because I still like that Seattle team and I'm probably in the all time minority and I'm sure on your Seahawks text thread you're not nearly as excited, but I think I like the team. I think they can run the ball. He's a roller coaster. But you've had that for the last decade anyway, so it's not anything different. And I don't mind the defense.
- [44:36]
B
Don't mind. They're awesome.
- [44:38]
A
Yeah.
- [44:38]
B
I think this is one of the five best defenses in football.
- [44:41]
A
I hope you're right. That's what I was banking on when I picked them to win the NFC West. But I don't mind how the defense looked the first week against the Niners. I thought there were a couple stops. Maybe you got to get that they didn't get. But they were better in the Pittsburgh game.
- [44:56]
B
Yeah, this is a really tough one for me because I am still a little apprehensive of this passing attack. It looked better against Pittsburgh, but.
- [45:04]
A
Well, you have an amazing receiver.
- [45:07]
B
1.
- [45:08]
A
You have one amazing receiver.
- [45:11]
B
Jake Bobo. No, I'm just kidding. Jack Smith. Najeeba. Yeah, he's unbelievable. Cup was good against the Steelers, but I don't know if there's enough the premise of this Seahawks offense under Clint Kubiak is they're going to come out with big bodies. They got a tight end or a fullback who's built like spongebob, multiple tight ends and they're going to pound the rock. And then they're going to play action off of that wide zone run game and they're going to put Sam Darnold under center. And when it works, it looks really good. And at times against the Steelers it worked but did not look good Week one. So I think it's just going to be up and down based on competition. It's going to be on the. The defense is going to have to carry them in a lot of these.
- [45:49]
A
Here's their path for a Sam Darnold playoff win. You have to win the division and you win the 4.5game and the 5 seed would be Detroit.
- [46:01]
B
It would not be. I don't see that.
- [46:05]
A
Okay.
- [46:05]
B
I'm skeptical. I would love it. I like Sam Arnold just seems like a delight. I would love for him to have success.
- [46:13]
A
Penix.
- [46:16]
B
I don't see it. It's nice that they got a pass rush going though.
- [46:19]
A
I kind of like the team. I wouldn't rule it out.
- [46:22]
B
I just think the Bucks are better and I don't see them as a wild. You know what I mean? The. They'd have to. I just think the Bucks are going to win the NFC South.
- [46:31]
A
Okay. And then we go Drake, May, Kyler Geno, Caleb Williams. We're going no on all those guys.
- [46:38]
B
No on May. So you're out.
- [46:40]
A
I think you can make the playoffs. I don't think they're beating Buffalo or Baltimore in round one. They could be a seven seed. They're not going to Buffalo and winning in mid January. Dimes is the only one out of everybody else who mentioned I was like, shit, maybe I don't know. They could be the four seed. Yeah, I think I'm. I might be a conceivable. Yes. It still seems inconceivable, but I really like.
- [47:06]
B
I am not. I do not think this is going to continue at this rate.
- [47:10]
A
No.
- [47:10]
B
But I was just looking at this for NFL live. He's completing 78% of his short passes, which is the top five. Anthony Richardson completed the lowest by a lot. He was the only quarterback in the NFL last year completing less than 60% of his short passes. That to me is sustainable. Daniel Jones, he's always hit those. And when you got a bunch of mutant skill players, Warren and Taylor, and they've got a really good group of Receivers and I love Josh Downs and yeah, they could be efficient on offense. Line looks good. I. I'm a believer.
- [47:48]
A
Well, they have at the Titans this week that has all the makings of just Vegas getting annihilated at the Rams. Then home Raiders, home, Cardinals. It's like not an inconceivable 5 and 1 after six games for them, which is kind of bonkers to think about. Okay, couple more things before we go. The NFC West. What's happening there? We talked about the Seahawks a little, but what's going on? Is this going to be the wonky division this year that we just every. Almost like last year, every week it seems like somebody's the favorite and then somebody loses and then it's a new favorite. That's just what we're going to do.
- [48:28]
B
Three, two, zero teams right now in the NFC West. Are they the only. They must be the only division in football. Let's see. They're only in the. Yeah, yeah, they're the only division. And then the Seahawks are one and one and. And they played the Niners week one. So yeah, I think I felt before the year that this was like the closest knit division. Right. Where like all four teams are pretty close. And I definitely still feel that way. I think early on Matthew Stafford kind of has reminded us that he's still a cut above and that offense to me is. Has a higher ceiling than all four of them. But when you look at the teams as a whole, I could see it coming down to the wire between all of them because the Seahawks have the best defense, the Niners are probably the most balanced. But then there's pretty.
- [49:15]
A
But have the least depth and already had multiple injuries and I don't.
- [49:19]
B
Cardinals are really hard for me to get my arms around because Kyler is like one of the more high variance quarterbacks in football. Like there's moments where he looks to me unbelievable and he makes Marvin Harrison juniors look good early on, but then there's stretches where he's just not playing to the level he's capable of.
- [49:36]
A
Well, on Fandor right now The Niners are plus 155, the Rams are plus 170, the Cardinals are plus 350 and then Seattle's 8 to 1, which I just, I just don't fundamentally understand. Cause I agree with you. I think those teams are all bunched together. A lot of it's going to come down to injury luck. You know, there's going to be three or four absolutely stupid games between the two. Between two of the teams. Right. We're going to have like a 19 to 18 score. GAMI Some sort of field goal, hitting both uprights before it goes through. Like you just know weird shit's going to happen. But I think it's anybody's division, so the 8 to 1 was really surprising to me.
- [50:16]
B
If they all played each other like in every matchup, I don't think any of them would have more than a score. They'd probably all be like 4.3 points or less splitting them. So yeah, I mean to me it's just going to come down to matchups and injuries for all of them. The Niners, I mean that's just a reflection of the schedule being so easy. Right. But they didn't look like world beaters. I mean they look better in Seattle. Obviously they won that game and particularly on offense and the defense looks somewhat fixed under Robert Sala.
- [50:44]
A
But I think you win that game if you just go for the fourth down. And McDonald's saying afterwards that the nerds told him to go for it and he kind of overruled them.
- [50:54]
B
I know.
- [50:55]
A
I was surprised by that.
- [50:57]
B
I was too because I really like him, a big fan of him and I thought he was really good at game management. Last year I was surprised by that. Sometimes, you know, when these defensive coaches get an elite defense on their hands, they start.
- [51:10]
A
They over trust it.
- [51:12]
B
Yeah. But yeah, I don't think he'll. I think next time he'll probably more. He was more aggressive in this last game too.
- [51:20]
A
So speaking of division odds, this would be your overreaction. This happens every year. Heading into week three, Colts are plus 135 on FanDuel, Jags are 2 to 1 and the Texans are down to plus 250. It feels a little overreacting. We're 15 games left. Like they still have the best secondary probably in the league. They still have a pass rush is unbelievable.
- [51:43]
B
They have the best. I still think they might have the best defense in the NFL.
- [51:48]
A
They might have just lost to two playoff teams, the Rams and Tampa, who might be the third and fourth best teams in the NFC for all we know. I don't know. That feels like an overreaction to me.
- [51:57]
B
Oh and two thing is hard. I mean the Rams did it right but it's hard to dig your.
- [52:01]
A
I mean every year someone does it.
- [52:03]
B
Every year someone does it. I think that does. I agree. I think that feels especially compared to the Jags.
- [52:09]
A
Well you sound from reading between the lines of you on this podcast today but also text with you and Danny Kelly. I'm going to say there's like a cautious buzz right now in Seahawks Nation. Just like a little.
- [52:22]
B
You were so high on them this summer.
- [52:26]
A
Just somebody's got to win the division. I just, they seem like the safest pick to me. Everybody was talking about the Arizona Cardinals and I'm like what have they ever done? I have to pick Kyler Murray. Why do I have to do that?
- [52:38]
B
I feel like your Seahawks enthusiasm like reverse psychologized me into being. I'm learning a lot about this as the mother of a two year old, which is you can't sell someone too hard on something cause it makes them not want it. And I feel like you did that to me a little bit with your Seahawks hype this off season.
- [52:58]
A
How old is your child exactly?
- [53:00]
B
He turns two in two weeks.
- [53:02]
A
Oh good luck man. That is just good luck. Two year old boys. Just demons. Yeah, good luck. I wish you the best that's going to be during football season. Oh my God.
- [53:18]
B
No, it's great. I love being told no. No, no, no, no, no is the most popular word in our house right now.
- [53:26]
A
Just I wish you the best. This episode is brought to you by NFL Sunday Ticket Experience the most live NFL action all in one place with NFL Sunday Ticket and YouTube TV. You can watch every game every Sunday all in one place so you never miss a key moment on the field. And now you can get it monthly. Get NFL Sunday Ticket month to month and cancel anytime. Head to YouTube.com BS to sign up local national games on YouTube TV. NFL Sunday Ticket for out of market games excludes digital only games. Base plane required Renews every month during the 2025 regular season only. Your membership for the following month can be canceled anytime before your renewal date. Terms, restrictions and embargoes apply. Commerc this episode is brought to you by Frank's Red Hot. Bring every bite to life with the perfect blend of flavor and heat. Two of my favorite things. You can put Frank's Redhot on everything and believe me, you will. A world where wings bring out the flavor of game day any day. Where Buffalo chicken dip takes any party up 1, 2, 3 notches and where any slice of pizza instantly becomes the world's best slice of pizza. Visit franksredhot.com shake to learn more. Hey, I'm a big fan of FanDuel's Thursday Touchdown Jackpot promo available for every Thursday night football game. Just place a $5 anytime bet on the game using the promo profit boost token. We call it a PBT. You can win a share of the 2 million in bonus bets. FanDuel is giving away if your player scores the first TD or the last TDs, plus you can win your bet. If your player scores the first td, you split a million dollars of bonus bets with everyone that bets same player. There's another $1 million jackpot for the last TD score. And again, I almost hit this last week. I had Tucker Kraft. He did score, but he didn't score the first or last. I'm giving out James Cook of the Buffalo Bills for this week, so be sure to check out the TD jackpot promo for Thursday Night Football this week and each subsequent Thursday over at FanDuel Sportsbook. All right, last question and most important, some huge Jaden Daniels news. And what's the deal? Just walk us through your emotions here.
- [55:29]
B
Knee injury.
- [55:30]
A
Not the injury.
- [55:31]
B
Yeah. Oh.
- [55:36]
A
Forget the injury. He'll be fine. Now, the other news.
- [55:42]
B
You had me queued up. I was like, he took 206 instances of contact last year in the open field. He's just too vulnerable.
- [55:48]
A
Oh, I'm already on that. I've been saying that to House forever.
- [55:53]
B
Well, the big Jane Daniels news, which is that he is one eighth Japanese, which he broke, which is important, so this is not my contingent designate. Yeah, he put it on his helmet. He wore it because they wear the little flags. Put the Japanese flag on his helmet.
- [56:11]
A
So what did he say? His grandmother was Japanese or half Japanese.
- [56:16]
B
His great grandmother is Japanese. So his grandmother is half Japanese. So his mom is a quarter. So he's an eighth. Right. I think I did the math right. But I did a deep dive, Bill.
- [56:26]
A
Yes, I spoke about it. I figured you would.
- [56:27]
B
On his mom's Instagram, like eight years and found several pictures. His grandmother just looks like my relatives. So listen, I said to Dominique when the news broke, it was big piece of breaking news in my community. Yeah, any quarterback with a QBR of 90 or higher, we'll take anything. You can be 1 24th Korean, and we will claim you if you're. If you're performing the way Jayden Daniels does. But another piece of news broke. Cameron Dicker, the Chargers kicker, he's like, really good Chinese. Saw that. There was a graphic that came across racing.
- [57:06]
A
What were the. What's the percentage?
- [57:08]
B
Graphic doesn't break it down. So I'll have to do another deep dive in there.
- [57:12]
A
But I think you needed Daniels because I know Chang was really upset about Koo.
- [57:18]
B
I know.
- [57:19]
A
Kind of falling apart in Atlanta.
- [57:21]
B
We needed a kicker, so we got one now.
- [57:23]
A
So what was. What was Heinz Ward. He was. He was Thai, right?
- [57:27]
B
No, he was Korean.
- [57:29]
A
Korean.
- [57:29]
B
Yeah. This is a big deal for me growing up.
- [57:31]
A
Yeah, but how.
- [57:33]
B
Like, a lot.
- [57:33]
A
He was like. He was way more than Jaden Daniels.
- [57:36]
B
Pretty sure it was 50%, if I remember. And he. He took it really seriously. We got a good squad going. I did the whole list. I might have to update the roster. We're very strong.
- [57:46]
A
I thought that was a roster.
- [57:48]
B
Yeah, I put together a whole roster. We're very strong. We're surprisingly strong at skill player because we got puka. It's aanhpi. Because we need all the PIs in the trenches that we can get. The whole offensive line is basically. Although the Broncos center is part Korean, I think I found out recently. And it's a golden age for Asian safety, led, of course, by our king, Kyle Hamilton. I forgot, but there's like 10 right now around the league safeties.
- [58:16]
A
You're right.
- [58:17]
B
For some reason. I don't know why. We're pretty thin at tight end. We need. If there any. Anyone's listening to this and knows any tight end who has even just. Just a little bit, please alert me, because we really need tight end.
- [58:29]
A
I Honestly, if this was a Twitter account, I would follow it like, monitoring the breaking news.
- [58:36]
B
We need, like a. Like an aggregator account that only does that. Like a. Like a dove climbing but not evil account. Reports on Asian NFL news.
- [58:46]
A
Yeah. I don't feel like Chang's been focused enough on it at all, to be honest. I know he's busy. He's. He's. The Netflix show came back. You and I were on it a couple weeks ago. He's. He's traveling around with Amazon. He's already been knocked out of my guillotine league. He was very upset about that.
- [59:03]
B
I know. Really?
- [59:04]
A
Yeah. But I don't feel like he's been focused enough on this Danish thing because that's his favorite team.
- [59:10]
B
I know. It's. I sent it to him. I expected a way bigger reaction than the one we did.
- [59:15]
A
Yeah. I don't know what's going on. Maybe he's slow playing it. Maybe it's too much pressure now. Cause it's like kind of crossed the beams for him with two different areas of interest.
- [59:24]
B
This is like. I don't. I don't know if you do this. We've never talked about it. I don't draft Seahawks in fantasy for this exact reason, which is you don't want two feelings of loyalty and incentive at the same time. Do you do that?
- [59:36]
A
I'm the opposite. Like, I have Travion Henderson in multiple leagues. Meanwhile. Meanwhile he can't block. Yeah, I was promised a pass blocker. I was promised this awesome pass blocker that then could play three downs. And he had three holding penalties last week.
- [59:55]
B
Yeah, pretty rough. Dave might also be so reeling from your bold anti rice take that. Got a big reaction.
- [60:02]
A
It wasn't anti race. It was pro pasta.
- [60:05]
B
It was. You can't rate anything highly that you can make in one minute. What's the goal?
- [60:11]
A
I just said you can't make pasta in one minute. Listen, my goal on that show is just to try to throw Chang off. So he is thinking he's mad about something I said and then he forgets what he's cooking. But you did the amazing thing of you go on Dinnertime live three hours after you had lunch.
- [60:30]
B
Yeah, that was.
- [60:31]
A
And then I'm the one who has to do all the eating and you're just picking a little bird cause you're not hungry.
- [60:36]
B
Well, and you're not a big eater too. I have seen you. We're gonna have to do this.
- [60:40]
A
I don't wanna be like mowing down on live tv. So there is something. You're very self conscious on those shows. Cause you wanna eat and it's really good. But you also don't wanna seem like you're in Goodfellas.
- [60:51]
B
You know what happened to me on that show? I didn't. I don't know if I told you this so early. Dave started making all this Korean food and he made mandu, which I grew up eating. And you remember, I was like, yeah, I grew up making this with my mom. And whatever he puts it out, I swear I'm not blaming Jiang, but I immediately shove it into my mouth and it was. I burned my entire mouth. So I could actually barely taste anything. And then. But my thought is like, I can't spit out food on television. So for a full like minute I was just sitting there trying, hoping it would cool inside of my mouth because it was so hot and my mouth was burned. I don't think I could feel anything in my mouth for like three days after that.
- [61:29]
A
Yeah, that's rough when you really burn it when you just have like skin hanging from the top of your mouth. What's your favorite TV show right now?
- [61:40]
B
Loving Task. Your recommendation? Just. Chris Ryan was over at my house talking about how good it was. So I had to watch it. I'm loving it.
- [61:47]
A
Great.
- [61:48]
B
You guys are recapping.
- [61:49]
A
That's it. I'm watching the Girlfriend on Amazon with Robin. Wright.
- [61:53]
B
That is so yours. Just like Peak.
- [61:55]
A
The algorithm knows me. It's like there's somebody's son, her son's dating somebody she doesn't trust or like. And there's backstories and all these shows start with a murder. Now the first thing you see is a dead body and blood. And then we go backwards.
- [62:09]
B
The shows start that way.
- [62:09]
A
I feel like, yeah, that's how they start. That's the algorithm tells them to do it.
- [62:13]
B
A show that actually did kind of start that way, but in a different way. That I love Alien Earth. Are you watching that on Amazon?
- [62:19]
A
Not watching that. It's good.
- [62:21]
B
It's a show. I mean, it's Noah Hawley who did Fargo, which I loved also apparently is like the best at taking source material and turning it in television. It's, you know, it's about these children who are hybrids or whatever, but really it's two actors. Timothy Olyphant is one of them and then the other. I forget the actor's name, but his character's name is Morrow. Who are just running away with this series. A cyborg and a synth or whatnot. Every scene with them. I can't believe you're not watching this because you would love the Timothy Olyphant scenes in this show.
- [62:54]
A
I'll watch it. I love Oliphant. The football really threw me for a loop. I either have to watch like a show like Task where I'm all in on or a really dumb show like the Girlfriend. Yeah, and those are like my two speeds at this point.
- [63:07]
B
Task on Sundays is tough, but I gotta be honest.
- [63:12]
A
I know you're still watching some of these reality shows. I'm having a really hard time with reality. And I don't know whether I'm just too old now. I might have aged out of the demo. I might be edging towards CBS because I'm old.
- [63:26]
B
I did love island this summer and it was brutal. You know, what's the problem with it? This is my theory about kind of all reality television. People started treating it like sports in a way that made it not fun. Yeah, it's kind of gotten overtaken by like stand culture and the Internet. And also I think it. Maybe there's a sports for like young quarterbacks coming in and trying to be Mahomes. Everybody on the shows is now just trying to be memed and you know, influence which no, no shame in the game. But I think it's kind of ruining the shows.
- [64:03]
A
I think that's a really crucial and important point. When reality was really working in the 2000s at its best, it was people who almost had no idea they were being filmed and that there would be ramifications combined with just kind of aberrant behavior that now most of that, if not all of it is discouraged, which is probably a good thing for mankind. But for reality shows, the shows are just way more careful. Like the Challenge, I can't even really watch anymore. It's like an athletic competition.
- [64:32]
B
Is that it? It's still going.
- [64:35]
A
It's still going. And it really is the fifth American sport now. But even these dating shows like that Bachelor in Paradise, I don't know what they were doing with that show.
- [64:44]
B
I still watch Love is Blind. We recap it. I have a show, viewer discretion. People like Love is Blind and I still like that one because I think it actually gets people who they're a little older and they're not all influencers and it's just really well produced. But yeah, I used to watch so much more. I tapped out on you and I used to text about the Bachelor years ago.
- [65:11]
A
It used to be a good show. I think it probably ran its course. It's been on since 2002. What were you doing 2003? What were you doing in 2003? That's how long it's been on.
- [65:23]
B
Yeah. Well, it's probably good for my brain that I'm watching less reality TV and more Alien.
- [65:30]
A
Now we just have more football and football is now on. Feels like four days a week. It's just done all the time.
- [65:36]
B
I didn't like the Friday that was.
- [65:38]
A
Well, yeah, you didn't like Friday Brazil.
- [65:41]
B
It was tough, but that might be more like as a mother of a two year old, it's just hard with the multiple nights.
- [65:47]
A
You know it's going to be tough is Thursday night Bill's Dolphins Probably Mike McDaniel's last game and Josh Allen just going nuts.
- [65:57]
B
What day of the ringer NFL show does he. Does he get.
- [66:00]
A
Should I make the invitation now or wait till he's formally relieved of his duties?
- [66:06]
B
My classmate Mike Daniel or maybe I don't know if we over left. I also don't know if he'd be a good. Of all the NFL coaches right now if you could take any of them. This is not about their coaching talent. Who do you think would be. You are. I've often said this, I think the single best talent evaluator in our industry.
- [66:26]
A
Thank you.
- [66:27]
B
Who would you pick of the coaches to be a new co host of the ringer NFL show?
- [66:32]
A
So is the caveat. They're never going to coach football again and they're going to just do this for a living.
- [66:37]
B
Don't worry about the coaching. Don't worry if they're good at coaching. Don't worry if they're going to be available. Just who would you pick? Because you think that guy is going to be freaking awesome.
- [66:45]
A
Talking McVeigh.
- [66:47]
B
Yeah, that's number one draft pick. Easy.
- [66:49]
A
Although I'm becoming more and more intrigued by Kevin o'. Connell.
- [66:53]
B
He's good. He's a good talker.
- [66:56]
A
Dark horse. I think his I watch all the locker room speeches. This is my true passion now that reality TV has died for me. And I think his locker room stuff is really high end. Like he's almost playing for the cameras in the right ways, but I think he's really good at it.
- [67:12]
B
You haven't met him in person, right?
- [67:14]
A
No.
- [67:15]
B
He's really charismatic too. And you can see why all the players love him so much immediately as soon as you talk to him. So he would be. He's too tall to be a podcaster, but he'd be good otherwise.
- [67:27]
A
Well, he's smart enough to make up a fake injury for J.J. mcCarthy. The high ankle sprain that I don't think happened. Yeah, his ankles hurt. We need Carson Wentz for a couple weeks after JJ missed 130 throws. Mina, thanks for popping on. Go do, go do television and let's go Seahawks. Congratulations on Jaden Daniels. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on.
- [67:51]
B
Glad to have him as a as a member.
- [67:53]
A
This episode is brought to you by Frank's Red Hot. Bring every bite to life with the perfect blend of flavor and heat. Two of my favorite things. You can put Frank's RedHot on everything and believe me, you will. A world where wings bring out the flavor of game day any day. Where Buffalo chicken dip takes any party up 1, 2, 3 notches. And where any slice of pizza instantly becomes the world's best slice of pizza. Visit franksredhot.com shake to learn more. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. As a small business owner, you don't have the luxury of clocking out early. Your business is on your mind 24 7. So when you're hiring, you need a partner that works just as hard as you do. That hiring partner is LinkedIn Jobs. When you clock out, LinkedIn clocks in. LinkedIn's new feature can help you write job descriptions and then quickly get your job in front of the right people with deep candidate insights. Nice. At the end of the day, the most important thing to your small business is the quality of candidates, and with LinkedIn you can feel confident you're getting the best. You can even add a hashtag hiring frame to your profile picture and get two times more qualified candidates. Post your job for free@LinkedIn.com Simmons terms and conditions apply. And now it's time for a special part of today's episode brought to you by NFL Sunday Ticket on YouTube TV. Our friends and if you're an NFL obviously I'm a fan because you've heard me talk about it constantly. You want an NFL Sunday ticket. You want to subscribe. You want to do it on YouTube TV. You get every game every Sunday all in one place. You can watch four games at once on multiview, which is going to be difficult this week because there's nine early games, the 1 o' clock PM ET games. There's nine of them and lucky for me, YouTube has crowned me their CMO, their chief multi View Officer. It's my job to tell you which four games to pick. But remember, local national games on YouTube TV NFL's Undertaker variety of market games excludes digital only games and commercial device and content restriction supply terms and embargo supply. No refunds. Well, two of the picks are easy Rams Eagles. That's going to be awesome. Steelers Pats are the Pats for real are this is Steelers run defense a mess? Rogers can the Pats shut him down? Drake May Is that for real? I'm excited for that one. Cincinnati Minnesota would be the third one. Two backup QBs. Kind of interested in both Wentz Jake Browning not terrible since he's two and oh Minnesota is one and one and then last but not least, I'd probably put Indianapolis and Tennessee on even though Tennessee's own too. I really like watching Cam Ward and Indianapolis. Let's see can you go three and oh is your offense the 99 Rams? What's happening with this team? Those would be my 4 so thanks again to YouTube for giving me the Chief Multi W Officer job. The CMO with every game every Sunday at your fingertips, choosing the ones that deserve a spot on your multi view screen is serious business so you can never miss a moment of action. All you have to do is get NFL Sunday Ticket on YouTube TV for a limited time only get $36 off NFL Sunday Ticket using code BS36 at checkout. New Year's is only while supplies last ends September 22nd. Go to YouTube.com BS to sign up now. Local and National Games on YouTube TV NFL Sunday Ticket for out of Market games excludes digital only games and commercial use. Device and content restrictions apply. Terms and embargoes apply. No refunds. All right, My friend Brian Koppelman is here. A long time longtime, longtime movie aficionado. He's made movies. He works in Hollywood. Robert Redford died today. And for some reason, you were my first text. I wanted to talk to you about Robert Redford because I think we both appreciated and liked and were frustrated by all the same things. But I'll start here in the running for best all around career of any actor ever, considering all the things that he did.
- [71:56]
C
The movie star rankings as far as a true movie star person who then became a director, filmmaker, producer. I mean, are you counting? You include Sundance in that? No doubt.
- [72:08]
A
You have to. You have to include.
- [72:09]
C
No doubt.
- [72:11]
A
Yeah, that was the. I was just thinking about the scope as. For some reason I didn't know that this day was. I hadn't heard that he was Obviously, it was 89. So you never know at that point. But when you think about, you start reading the score stories and you're like, holy mackerel. This guy did so much stuff. His career is in all these different segments. I mean, he's the biggest actor of the 70s, right. And we'll go into some of the reasons why that happened, but he's just, he owns that decade over some great guys. Newman's in there, McQueen, Reynolds, and he's the guy from that decade, right?
- [72:48]
C
Yeah. I mean, it's funny, he had some runs when I was looking it over, even just as soon as we started texting about the movies. He had runs as each thing, that little runs within the thing, each of which would have made him in the running for kind of like the best eight year chunk. And he repeated that a bunch of times in different ways. Like from when he would get a foothold at something, he could really run with it for a while in a crazy, amazing way. But also, Bill, I think part of why you wrote me is we're not going to say, but, you know, someone who meant a lot to the two of us had told us a lot of stories about him. And so I think we just had a bunch of different reactions together.
- [73:35]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Well, he wins best director and best film for Ordinary People, which was the first movie he directed in 1980. We already did it in the rewatchables. But it's during a time when actors really weren't supposed to do that. Actors were supposed to act, directors were supposed to direct. And for the most part, you didn't really cross the beams. He starred in three Best Picture Actor or best Picture Oscar winners and laid down this whole model for all these actors that followed where it's like, well, I want to be an EP on this film. I want to own my own stuff. I want to own a company. I want to do more festivals. I want to be an activist. I think him and Newman really were the first two that I can remember that did that. Can you think of anybody else he.
- [74:23]
C
No, no. I mean, who did which piece? Who did which?
- [74:26]
A
Just like Newman did the. He was big on the activism side and just trying to do a bunch of charity stuff and. And just use his platform for other things.
- [74:38]
C
Brando certainly did. Different actors did along the way in different ways, maybe, you know, for political commentary.
- [74:44]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [74:45]
C
Smaller ways, but, yeah, those guys both absolutely did it. I mean, Jane Fonda definitely tried to did it too, but those guys, no doubt about it also, he just did lay down. I think it's got to just start for me. Robert Redford is the quintessential idea of what a movie star is supposed to feel and look like. And I think so much of it had to do with, yes, his. Of course, his physical appearance, but the stillness in him as an actor, how he would just. However he got that confidence to, like, let the camera just land on him. But also his taste, which is what runs through everything you were just talking about. This is a guy who just could pick. He went through these periods where he just kind of. It felt like understood what the mood was or what cool was or what class he was. And he could anticipate it at just the moment the wave was going to break. And he could ride the wave. And that's like an incredibly rare skill over a long period of time.
- [75:49]
A
Yeah, taste and self awareness is a really good combo if you're an A plus lister. Yeah. I was thinking. I wrote down the three things that he just seemed to completely understand. That all seemed pretty basic. And the first one you just mentioned, he knew he was a movie star. He wanted to make movies where he seemed like a movie star. And this was something Tarantino wrote about. When he wrote about Steve McQueen in his book, where he was like, Steve McQueen, the most important thing to him was just how he looked in film, how he looked in a scene, how he didn't want a lot of dialogue. He would tell the screenwriter, like, cut that out. I only need to say two words there. I don't need to go back and forth with a bunch of people. Redford was like, I'm really handsome. I'm a little mysterious. There's something a tiny bit hard to figure out about me. I play it close to the best. You're going to have to figure me out. But I'm really handsome. And he rode that through the late 60s in the 70s as well as anything.
- [76:52]
C
I mean, I don't know. I can't remember when we did the Margin Call podcast, if you had seen JC's movie that he made with Redford on the all is Lost. Right. I think.
- [77:04]
A
Right, yeah.
- [77:05]
C
Did you ever see that movie?
- [77:07]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [77:08]
C
Because it's incredible. And it's this thing you're talking about. I mean, Redford says five words in the movie and you're just with him and his face and his body and the situation he's in and you care so much about what's going to happen to this guy and there's no great backstory. You don't know a tremendous amount. But in a way that I remember watching that theater and like you just said, you had no idea he was sick. Neither did I know. Other than when he said he was stepping down from being actively running stuff.
- [77:40]
A
Yeah.
- [77:41]
C
So you had a sense how, you know, he feels like he maybe isn't. But I didn't know him. I never met the man. I had no idea. But all is lost. I remember watching this little theater in New York and thinking, well, he put it down. He put down that performance the guy does at the very end where it's like, remember, this is what I was great at. Because he didn't have to speak in that movie, but he had to be and carry all of what Robert Redford was. Because that guy was self sufficient. That guy was stoic. That guy also beat himself up at moments. He had the hubris, but it was like this whole grit and he had dignity and he had resolve and he had grit and it was like stacking all these aspects of all these characters that Redford had played. Another, by the way, just incredible work by J.C. sandor, who I think is like the most underrated director for some reason. Well, think about how underrated that guy is. What he's done. Redford, amazing and towering. Like, I don't know who's. I mean, who do you. I'm sure you thought about it. I don't know who's in that conversation with him in your mind.
- [78:51]
A
I want to get to that. I have a spot for that.
- [78:53]
C
Okay.
- [78:55]
A
The second thing that I thought he understood. Work with as many great directors as you can. I mean, he made seven Pollock movies. He and Sidney Pollock had a special relationship, but that's something that I think some of the modern actors have really. That was a big Leo thing. And the smarter guys are like, I just want to work with the best people. The third thing I think is really underrated. And I haven't heard anyone make this point. And I don't know if it's a coincidence or if it's something. If I had ever had him on a podcast, I would have asked him. He really understood the importance of an ending and how important it was when a movie is coming to a close, some sort of scene or moment that when you're leaving the theater, you're like, man, that was fucking awesome. And again, I don't know if it's a coincidence, but think about. I have nine movies here. Downhill Racer. Fucking amazing. Last five minutes, right? Spoiler alert. He thinks he's just won the downhill, and there's one last guy coming, and they're all celebrating. Then they're kind of looking up, and this guy's hitting the times, and all of a sudden, that guy flies in the air. It's just awesome. Butch and Sundance. One of the great endings ever written. Jeremiah Johnson, my dad's favorite movie.
- [80:15]
C
I only saw that movie one time with my dad. I don't remember the ending.
- [80:19]
A
It's just the. You know, he's fought these Native Americans forever, and then at the end, they have this begrudging respect, and it's a wave, and he waves, and then this voice comes in. Some folks say he's up there still, and it just. It's just fun. It's like, yes, He. He survived the candidate.
- [80:42]
C
Oh, man.
- [80:43]
A
He wins. I love the candidate. It's on the rewatch list.
- [80:47]
C
The last moment of the candidate is one of the all time.
- [80:50]
A
What do we do now?
- [80:51]
C
Yeah, what do we do now?
- [80:52]
A
The Sting. The whole reason people love that movie was the fight was the last 10 minutes the way we were. Kind of a flawed movie, but when he runs into Streisand at the end. Your girl is lovely. Hubble, Stolen for Sex and the City, first season, last episode or second season. All the President's Men. All the President's Men with the typing and Nixon and then the last two. I think he had figured out the endings, things. Brubaker is one of my favorite endings of any random movie ever.
- [81:27]
C
The clap.
- [81:28]
A
I made the case and invented the slow clap.
- [81:31]
C
You think, oh, is that the first. You think that's the first usage?
- [81:34]
A
It invented the slow clap. I do. Sick. I do. For people listening Who? Don't know. Brubaker is. He's a prison warden.
- [81:41]
C
He's a warden? Yeah.
- [81:42]
A
Goes undercover in the prison because the prison is so corrupt. He pretends to be a prisoner, but after he gets a job, goes in and then ends up that gets pushed out by the state. But the prisoners realized he was actually trying to make the prison better, and they slow clap him as he's driving away. It's fucking awesome. And then the last one's the natural one of the great endings of any sports movie. Incredible. Probably the number one game you would have wanted to go to anyway. I don't know if that's a coincidence, but he just always left you leaving the theater, thinking about it, feeling on a high or feeling something.
- [82:18]
C
Yeah, I mean, that goes back to taste, right? And knowing what to choose to be in. And then by all accounts, he was pretty relentless as far as making sure the scripts were right to his own satisfaction. So I'm sure, you know, look, he had the benefit of working with some of the greatest screenwriters ever, like William Goldman. And, I mean, Bill certainly wrote about that experience in certain ways. And Bill won the Oscar for All the President's Men. And I think they had a good working relationship on Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.
- [82:55]
A
Yeah, well, in the last 60 years, Redford had a case for making the best Western butcher and Sundance the best baseball movie, the best conspiracy thrower, the best political movie, and the best reporting movie.
- [83:10]
C
Oh, yeah, don't leave out the ending of Three Days of the Condor either.
- [83:13]
A
Yeah, that's where I get the conspiracy throw. Yeah, I got the ending of Three Days.
- [83:17]
C
Yeah, I could have put that, too, with the newsprint in front of the. That's incredible also. And, you know, that movie's influence is like. You can't even begin to talk about that movie's influence.
- [83:26]
A
It's so big. And then the other thing you talked about, how he just had a good sense of what to do and what roles to take, and more importantly, not to take. There was, like, that famous story of the Graduate when Mike Nichols wanted him, but then wasn't sure he was right for the role because he wanted the guy to be more of a loser. And as the story goes, he asked Redford, have you ever made a move on a girl and been turned down? And Redford's like, no. And he's like, this is why you can't have the role.
- [83:57]
C
He said Redford didn't even understand the question.
- [84:00]
A
He's like, what do you mean?
- [84:01]
C
Yeah, what are you talking.
- [84:02]
A
What do you mean I put my sights on a woman and she's not interested? What. What's that like? Was he treated like he was an alien? But it's interesting. He never did a horror movie. Apparently, he turned down Rosemary's Baby. You know, he never did some sort of movie where he's playing somebody that's completely different than who he was. He always was. Kind of felt like it was Redford in whatever he did, which I think was intentional. Right. Some people are just like, I need to be around the vicinity of me.
- [84:37]
C
Yeah. They play roles that the essence of who they are is the thing that kind of shines through. And big movie stars a lot of time, where the essence that we associate with them somehow is the thing that shines through. And he didn't always play a good. Some people think that means that they're always playing someone as a good man. That's not the case. But it's kind of a guy, in Redford's case who's always had the ability to be competent. I mean, Condor is a great example where at first he seems incompetent, but by the end, he's a guy who can. He can figure it out. He played smart really well, and especially a guy. People could think, oh, they think he's dumb because he's so handsome. But really, he's smart. Really, he can think. Maybe not the fastest thinker, but a good thinker. And of course, I mean, even though Goldman wrote it the way Redford played Can I Move As Sundance invented a whole kind of a character, the kind of sidekick character that he was, who becomes kind of the equal buddy and a guy who could admit I can't swim. There are a couple of scenes in Butch Cassidy that are among the best scenes in cinema history that really rely on line readings by Redford that were unbelievable. You know.
- [85:53]
A
Well, and then all the Presidents, which we did in the rewatch, was a while ago. There's that great scene when Hoffman's stealing his copy and he kind of realizes what's happening and the way he kind of plays that. And then he finally goes over and goes, I don't mind what he did. I just don't like how he did it.
- [86:11]
C
It's the greatest. I mean, that's one of my. That and Quiz show, which he directed. Those are two. The guy was involved in absolutely deeply. Two of my personal, like, 10 favorite.
- [86:21]
A
Movies of all time.
- [86:22]
C
And like all the President's Men, probably maybe my most rewatched movie. It's really possible. But Quiz show is definitely top 10 of my most rewatched movies that he directed. And they're similar. They're cousins, those movies.
- [86:37]
A
What is it about all the President's Men that sucked you in? Because I've heard different answers for this, depending on who you ask.
- [86:42]
C
The two, honestly, originally, because I first saw it as a kid. I mean, that's been a movie I've rewatched sick my whole life.
- [86:49]
A
Yeah, me too.
- [86:50]
C
Well, Bill, I don't think you can separate it from, like, I was seven when Nixon resigned. My mom made me watch.
- [86:54]
A
I just felt like it's been on since I was like, you know, a kid.
- [86:58]
C
My mom made me watch, and I'm so glad she did. Nixon's resignation speech, you know, so, like, the story of getting those bad guys.
- [87:06]
A
Yeah.
- [87:06]
C
And then it was writers who did it. Right. The way. When you're a kid processing it, reporters who did it. And those guys were famous in my house. Like, they would talk about those two guys because it was amazing what they did. So. And then this movie that I had heard was so great. And I just remember the way they talked. And also, like, you know, oh, I remember when you were a writer. Do you remember, Bill, when you were a writer?
- [87:28]
A
When my fingers worked. Yeah.
- [87:29]
C
Yeah. When you were a writer back. It was great. You were a great writer. And you know how much I loved your writing. But so you do know, when you're young, even if you don't know you're going to be a writer, stories about writers, they get your attention in a certain way. Like, you're like, wait, these are writers? What does that mean? Even if you don't know, you're like. There's something about that that just, like, hits you. And that was the thing. Like, what do you mean? There are other journalists. Wait, what? It was just the cool. I don't know. Like, it was the cool. And then also the long hair and they're. The way that they just even dressed in the situation and their friendship. Also, they were so fucking cool in the movie. The way they would trap people with the dialogue, the way they would concoct schemes. Also their boss being such a motherfucker. It was like every one of those things, the crackling dialogue and. And that they won. The good guys, you know, the good guys won, but it was really complicated and they barely won. And no one even knew if it was a good thing. I don't know. I. For me, every part of it is incredible. What about you? What? What is it about it?
- [88:31]
A
I didn't get into watchables.
- [88:32]
C
But what did you do?
- [88:33]
A
I didn't get into it until college, maybe right after college, because I had to have a Watergate phase, because that's what everybody would have afterwards. You would have. You had your JFK phase, your Watergate phase. You just. Your Charles Manson phase. You just go through. I'm gonna. I'm going to read this. I'm going to watch that. And I did the Watergate thing, and I just watched all the President's Men. And then just from that point on, I felt like I've watched it at least once a year since. And the only movie I can think of that came close to it was Spotlight, which I think is the most depressing subject possible, but is this amazingly rewatchable movie that's now been out 10 years, but very similar beats of. There's something really important happening. We actually need reporters. And they're solving it almost like this true crime thing. People are against them. There's a big establishment that wants to knock them out, you know, so.
- [89:28]
C
Right. I. I mean, I just also. To say, obviously, when I say all the President's Men's, My. My most rewatched movie. The Godfather movies don't even count. Like, they're just their own. That's their own.
- [89:39]
A
No, that's like saying I can't. Like Nick's games.
- [89:41]
C
Yeah, Yeah. I can't count the Godfather movies. Obviously. Those are the most. It's not even close. But I'm talking about after. After that. Just Spotlight, man. The first time I saw it.
- [89:54]
B
I.
- [89:54]
C
Saw Spotlight, as in a screening and when it was not even finished yet, and I sent emails around to a bunch of people like, I just saw the best picture winner. And this is like my. I said that movie spotlight, that Tom McCarthy made it is every single thing, every ambition I could ever have of what the ultimate thing you could do as a filmmaker is what Tom did in that movie. And you're right, I hadn't thought of it in terms of. But it is all the presents to me, Quiz show, which, as you know, it's the rewatchables that you and I are going to do someday. Quiz show is, for me, really right up there, because it's this. It's. It's the same kind of story in a way, which we could talk about another time, but I feel like it's. It's. It does the same thing, but there are very few movies that do it well. And Redford did that.
- [90:43]
A
Only nominated for one acting Oscar, which seems nuts. It's like finding out that some incredible NBA player. Only made like one all NBA team.
- [90:51]
C
I don't even know. I saw that. He only won one. What did he win for?
- [90:54]
A
He won for directing, right?
- [90:56]
C
That's it.
- [90:57]
A
Ford people.
- [90:58]
C
That was his own right.
- [90:59]
A
When he beat Scorsese, which has turned.
- [91:01]
C
Out to be right for Best Pit. But as producer or director on that one. That did he want. He won it as director, right?
- [91:07]
A
Yeah. Was only nominated for this sting. He never. You mentioned all his loss. That's like way late in his career. He never had his version of the Verdict or call her Money like Newman did. But what's interesting is he was in on the Verdict. He was doing the movie and really wanted them to rewrite it because he didn't like that the guy was such a loser. And this is something Goldman would talk about. Goldman would always talk about how stars didn't want to play losers. They always wanted to seem like the hero. And he's just like, this guy's too much of a loser. So he drops out and gives that role to Newman, ends up getting it and should have won the Oscar for it, but it became such an important Newman role and Redford just didn't fit his. Didn't fit his model for what he wanted for himself.
- [91:56]
C
The thing ended up working out perfectly.
- [91:58]
A
Just the way they did for everybody. It's probably. I don't think I would have bought him as Frank Galvin. But that's the thing. I think deep down he knew that was a good character.
- [92:06]
C
Not necessarily in the Lumet Mamet version of the movie.
- [92:09]
A
Yeah, right. But he never got. I feel like he never got acting respect past a certain point. Right. And I don't really know the. You know, I. I think sometimes, especially with actors, when somebody is simple and really good like that, sometimes we recognize it and sometimes we don't. And in his case, maybe he was. I'm not an actor, so I wouldn't be able to speak. Like, if. Could he be on stage? Could he have been belting it? Like when you hear, like these legendary stories of, you know, Pacino on Broadway or Olivier back in the day, I don't know if he was an actor like that.
- [92:47]
C
In a way, he's a movie star. Maybe it has to do with the era because, yes, he's a movie star. I think you said it perfectly. He's a movie star. But it's hard to do what he did as an actor. And if you look at the actors who were the ones mostly in his prime lead era, who were getting recognized, they were big performances. They Were people really doing something right? Whether it's Peter Boyle, whether it's Dustin. Dustin or Pacino or De Niro. They were showier. They were incredible. They were our favorite actors. But. And Redford's word, much less showy. He didn't do that, really. He wasn't big in that way. So many things get tied to the period that they're in, right? The moods and tones. But to be a star for as long as he was a star, it's kind of amazing, right? And rare. And I think he chose it. I think he. By the thing you're talking about, he didn't take the character. He also didn't take those parts.
- [93:59]
A
Right. He loved being like so many of these movies. He's a hero. Or there's a little bit of. Downhill Racer is definitely a cruise character, right?
- [94:10]
C
30 years later, of course, 20 years later, yes, 100%.
- [94:14]
A
So he could do that Downhill Racer thing. He could be this sidekick like Butch Cassidy. He could do Jeremiah Johnson, which is basically 1973. Revenant was not the crazy director where you're sleeping in a bare stomach. But it was still. It's one guy. He could have been in Castaway. I think he could have done that role where it's just like, I'm going to be the star of the movie. I'm going to carry scenes by myself just by being interesting.
- [94:40]
C
He made it look effortless, maybe. I'm just trying to think of. Actually, I'm trying to give a second to. To your question. And I'm just reviewing all these performances, and if I think about it, other than Sundance and Condor, most of these performances, he. He did make it look. He was an actor who looked like.
- [95:05]
A
I would say effortless.
- [95:06]
C
He. Yeah, it was. He made it look kind of effortless. I mean, which is why the natural Roy Hobbs is such a great part for him, in a way. This guy with that swing, you know, and who looks believable.
- [95:19]
A
Believable swing.
- [95:20]
C
And you. He looked a certain way, and you'd never know what this backstory was. And you. You wouldn't know that there was any trauma there or any of that, you know, and it. He had that swing. And that swing, in a way, is a great metaphor, right? For just looking like Redford looked and walking like he walked. And it kind of doesn't invite you to go, oh, look at the craft. Because, of course, to build a swing like that took a lot of effort in Roy Hobbs, right? It's like people watch Federer and they go, oh, it's gorgeous. Like you know, how much torque that guy's generating, you know, many thousands, millions of hours he's put in so that it looks like this beautiful effortless thing, but still we watch it and we go, oh, graceful. Oh, effortless.
- [96:08]
A
It's interesting how that movie age because I think for the entire time I was in high school, through college, through the first six years I had my column for the Sports Guy column, the Natural and Hoosiers were the two best sports movies of all time. And that those were the only two acceptable arguments. Those are the ones we argued about as like, which one's better? But then as the years passed, I don't feel like the Natural held up in that conversation in the same way. And I'm not really sure why. Maybe it's partly baseball or maybe it was so far back, you know, we're in like the 19.
- [96:41]
C
It's an old fashioned movie. Embraces. It's Barry Levinson, right. And he, he, I mean, he just embraced all that. So it's shot that way, like the glide and camera. It's. It doesn't feel like a contemporary movie in any way. It feels like, almost like a. It's a throwback, right?
- [96:58]
A
You and I have probably seen it a combined 700 times.
- [97:01]
C
I mean I've certainly seen it plenty of times. I love it. But if you're asking why people don't. It's. I don't know, like, I bet you, I don't know if Sam has seen. Incidentally, I'm in my, the room my son grew up and I love that I'm throwing an entire Knicks.
- [97:17]
A
Entire Nick's. Wow.
- [97:19]
C
And we've asked him if you want us to repaint the room now that you're out of here and whatever. No, keep it, keep the Knicks up there. But. And also I'd say, you know, in the pro wrestling, Simmons, Pablo Torre, back and forth. Sammy broke this huge story on Pablo today. So you had.
- [97:35]
A
What was the story?
- [97:36]
C
Oh, it's, it's, it's just an insane sports. It's an insane story about China stealing the brainwaves of athletes. It's crazy. You'll freak out. But Sam and Pablo did it together. So you had to have me on just to balance the skit, you know, you gotta balance the skit.
- [97:51]
A
Yeah, we do the old ver. The old guy version of the combo.
- [97:56]
C
We're like the. We are. We gotta bring our walkers in.
- [97:58]
A
Yeah.
- [97:59]
C
And do our version.
- [98:00]
A
Hold that. It's time for bingo.
- [98:05]
C
Yeah. Talk about the Natural.
- [98:07]
A
You're the best damn hitter I ever saw Suit Up Wilford.
- [98:11]
C
How many times do you think that combined Pablo and Sam have seen the National? At the most, I'm giving you two at the most.
- [98:21]
A
That's the thing. It's, it's. And it shifts where like Moneyball becomes the new natural. Right. And I think Moneyball for the last 15 years probably took the spot in a lot of ways.
- [98:30]
C
So are you an Eight Men and do you love Eight Men Out? I love Eight Men Out.
- [98:32]
A
I do. I love Eight Men Out. So does Van Lathan.
- [98:35]
C
I would put Eight Men out might be the best baseball movie. It's possible.
- [98:39]
A
Another great ending movie.
- [98:41]
C
Yeah. Incredible. Oh my God.
- [98:43]
A
Shoeless Joe five years after.
- [98:44]
C
That's no an incredible. That movie's. That negotiation scene is one of the most incredible sports movie scenes. If you haven't seen Eight Men out.
- [98:52]
A
Go see it quickly on Redford.
- [98:55]
C
Yep.
- [98:55]
A
So he has this run from 69 to 76. You mentioned earlier how he had this crazy eight year run. He blows up with Butch Cassidy and with Downhill Racer. Right. Just immediately becomes a megastar in 73 and 74. He has Jeremiah Johnson, the Way We Were, the Sting, the Great Gatsby. And then they re released Butch and Sundance. But Butch Cassidy and Sundance Kid and it becomes top 10 again. He has two of the top five in 73 and three of the top 10 in 1974. Out of the top 10 movies for two years, five of the 20. And then he does great Wild Dog Prepper, which is a flawed movie. But I kind of. I don't know. George Roy Hill. I kind of Goldman. I kind of enjoy it. Three Days of the Condor and then all the President's Men. He's an EP on that and wins Best Picture. It's about as good as it gets, man. And when you think of the taste of those movies, holy shit.
- [99:52]
C
Incredible. Truly like a staggering run because he had that run. And then in 1980 is when he starts the directing.
- [100:00]
A
When he moves in the Ordinary People, Brubaker, the Natural out of Africa, Legal Eagles. That's all in seven years.
- [100:06]
C
But then also the four movies he directed, the first four. That's a really strong coming out of the gate. First four movies as a director and.
- [100:13]
A
Then he has kind of a fun. A little bit drunk. 1990s where he does River Runs Through. It makes Brad Pitt a star. That's it. And weirdly passes the torch because I think there's a lot of Brad Pitt, Robert Redford. Millions of people have talked about that. Sneakers, Indecent Proposal Quiz show gets Nominated and then up close and personal. An Indecent Proposal is the weirdest movie choice he made. It was the one where you're like, wow, he's in this. But he had built up so much credibility. And it's Demi Moore and Woody Harris. We did it on rewatchables. I like that movie.
- [100:47]
C
But that's another. Yeah, that's another example of a movie that, like, he understood where the. He understood the era he was in.
- [100:53]
A
Yeah, well, and he also. You never see him, like, he's not, like, banging away at Demi Moore in a scene. Like, there's elegance.
- [100:59]
C
He understood the where. Where we were thinking as a culture about money and sex and men and women. Like, he understood something, surfed it, and made a huge hit. I mean, that's a huge hit movie, right? And it made him culturally relevant or kept him culturally relevant again.
- [101:14]
A
And then Sundance was the other thing, and I think he was really smart about that. I'm only gonna have this run for so long. I'm gonna get replaced by somebody else. My looks are only gonna last for so long. What else can I do? How else can I be entrenched? And that's what leads to Sundance and all the other stuff he did. And then Sundance. God only knows how many movies broke out of that. And it's easy to say now, like, oh, well, somebody else would have created a Sundance. Well, nobody did. He didn't.
- [101:40]
C
No, he didn't. That guy put his money where his mouth was. And, yeah, obviously, if he includes Sundance, it's very hard right off the top of my head to think of somebody who is on that level. I do think movie star to movie star, because you don't even think about the fact that Cruise is, like 60 years old or whatever, because, you know, these guys were making the big valedictory movie when they were in their 60s, and Cruise is still just a movie star. Like Cruz, the greatest movie star of all. To me, Cruz is the movie star of all time.
- [102:11]
A
Like, Cruz is just mid-60s now, FYI.
- [102:14]
C
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. He's in his 60s. He's just been a movie star the whole time. So. But I. That that's.
- [102:22]
A
I don't.
- [102:23]
C
It's so easy to forget it because he's still making movies, like, as though he's 40, but he's not.
- [102:29]
A
That goes to the self awareness thing, which I would argue Cruz might not have a lot of self awareness at this point. I don't think he should be doing Mission Impossible anymore. He should be trying to Figure out what's the next thing I can do that more reflects where I'm at in life. And it's like he doesn't want to think about where he is at life, obviously. He just wants to keep being Ethan Hunt.
- [102:47]
C
Yeah. Though I bet you he has an incredible. Someone was saying this the other day. I think it's true that he'll have an incredible kind of character actor run like a Newman. Like, run soon enough.
- [102:58]
A
I hope so. We're running out of time. He's, you know, Newman made the verdict when he was in his early 50s. I think many have been younger than that.
- [103:07]
C
But. But all right. I mean, you know, Tom did Magnolia.
- [103:13]
A
I don't know if he wants to open up that side anymore.
- [103:16]
C
Well, we'll see. I don't know. Who knows? I just think it's Bradford and I think you can make the argument it's like Redford and Cruz. You got to put Clint, like, you know, Clint obviously also did a lot of. In various capacities that it's pretty incredible.
- [103:32]
A
Clint's a good one. When you talk about, like best careers because the fact that he was still directing into his 80s 90s and allotted.
- [103:40]
C
Incredible. You know, as a director, like him or not, you kind of can't argue with what he accomplished as a director. It's staggering. And in his own way, and at a time, I mean, you know, he sort of directed movies way earlier and at a time when. Yeah. Like you said, they weren't just handing actors movies. So Clint, the other one in the.
- [104:00]
A
Clint's a good one for this too. Because I asked Lorne Michaels once, like what? Like hosts you weren't able to get or couldn't get that you would have loved to get. And Clint was the first one I think he mentioned.
- [104:11]
C
Oh, that's great.
- [104:12]
A
But it's interesting because Redford never hosted that show either. And it's two guys that always kept the mystique of I'm a movie star, I'm over here, I carry myself a certain way. I don't, you know, you're only going to get these pieces like Leo.
- [104:26]
C
Has Leo hosted? Maybe he must have hosted around. Did he host around Romeo and Juliet or. He never hosted.
- [104:31]
A
Think Leo ever hosted.
- [104:32]
C
Right. Because Leo is in that. He's the last one who has mystique. Right. He's the last of those movie stars with true.
- [104:39]
A
I don't know if you could have mystique like that anymore in the society we have. It's almost like you have to have to be out there connecting in all these different ways. Like, you can't just be like, oh, I'll let my works be. Speak for myself. Who does this?
- [104:52]
C
This is what I. I was thinking about this today when. When the ma. I saw the announcement about the Masters, you know, the Masters allowing Amazon to stream them, making a streaming deal. And at first I was like, whoa. But then I was like, right, because you know what even the Masters realizes, well, we made a deal with CBS at a certain point because everyone was watching television. This is where the world is. We got to go there. So you're probably. You're probably right about that. That maybe that model just doesn't even interest anybody anymore. That level of mystique, the culture.
- [105:21]
A
Just when you figure out Rounders 2.
- [105:24]
C
Yes, sir.
- [105:24]
A
It can't just be like, Rounders 1. You've got to use all these different pieces.
- [105:28]
C
Rounders 2 is going to have to come from, like, Sam's kid and then Levine's kid's kid. And Pablo will probably fund it.
- [105:35]
A
Finance. I was going to say you have Pablo and Sammy investigating Mike McD for some sort of Caribbean poker success fund.
- [105:42]
C
With replicants of DNA of Matt. Never. Because by then they'll be able to. They can do anything. I mean, they'll do any of it easy.
- [105:49]
A
Sammy came to. We did a. We did a talk at. In Cambridge in April, and Sammy showed up and I was very touched.
- [105:58]
C
He was very happy to. He was very happy to see you. Yeah, I remember he was very happy.
- [106:02]
A
Everything else.
- [106:03]
C
Yeah, I'm good. I'm, you know, I got. I'm dealing with a little appendicitis, but see, it's the.
- [106:10]
A
But you were having a pod.
- [106:12]
C
This era, they don't just take it out right away. Always. They go, here, we're going to bomb you with antibiotics and then take it out in a few weeks. So, yeah, I'm fine. Hopefully my appendix doesn't explode, but.
- [106:22]
A
Well, save your energy for Quiz Show Rewatchables next month because you have my word, we're doing it in October.
- [106:28]
C
Can't wait. All right, Bill, talk to you soon, buddy.
- [106:30]
A
Thanks, Koppelman.
- [106:31]
C
See you, man. Bye.
- [106:33]
A
All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Mina and Koppelman. Thanks to Gahao and Eduardo as well. Don't forget, the Rewatchables is up for this week. We did Tin cup, and you can find it wherever you get your podcasts. You can find it on The Ringer Movies YouTube channel as well. I am going to be back on Thursday with another hopefully awesome podcast. I feel like we're two for two this week. Great content. I will see you on Thursday. Must be 21 plus in President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + in President D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. GAMBLING PROBLEM Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 1-887-89-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplianma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York.