Watching You | 5. Breaking Point

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Binge Cases: Watching You

Episode 5: Breaking Point

Date: December 29, 2025
Host: Jonathan Hirsch
Production: Sony Music Entertainment

---

Brief Overview

In this pivotal episode of "Watching You," host Jonathan Hirsch unpacks the breaking point in the Leili family tragedy. The story follows Dominique "Nique" Leili’s murder, the subsequent investigation into her husband Matt Liley, and the complex, damaging aftermath for their daughters and extended family. The episode centers on the slow-moving legal process, Alex Liley’s dogged fight for justice, and the psychological warfare waged by Matt—culminating in his dramatic arrest. It's a harrowing portrait of control, loss, and fractured relationships set against the dark backdrop of one family's unraveling.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Sudden Move to Vermont (03:35)

• Matt's Urgency: Six months after Nique’s murder, Matt abruptly moves with daughters Amanda and Rebecca to Vermont.

  “It was such a rush and I remember we weren’t even really fully packed... we’re just, we’re going right now.” —Amanda (03:35)

• Isolation as Tactic: Matt claims it’s to escape media attention, but Alex observes, “Had the knock-on effect of getting them away from the rest of the family” (04:21).
• Alex’s Loss: Alex mourns not just her mother, but “a mom and two sisters” (04:35), spotlighting Matt’s isolation strategy.

2. Alex's Relentless Pursuit of Justice (08:38, 09:15, 12:18)

• Forcing Matt’s Hand: Alex sues Matt for Nique’s remains, fighting to prevent him from burying her mother (09:30).
• Insurance and Lawsuits: Discovering Matt as the beneficiary on Nique’s life insurance, Alex’s lawyer encourages her to file a wrongful death suit to stop the payout (11:53).
• Personal Motivation:

  “My backbone just comes from needing to survive and find a way away from him my whole life.” —Alex (12:18)

• Matt's Denials and Inconsistencies: State Farm’s investigation reveals Matt’s contradictory statements about insurance knowledge (13:46).

3. Legal Maneuvering and Civil Action (14:30)

• Matt’s Defense: His lawyer tries to paint Alex’s animosity as evidence of bias:

  “You dislike Matt Lyly?”
  “You hate Madeline?”
  “Do you believe Mr. Lyly’s a monster?”
  “Yes” (14:36–14:47)

• Turning Point: The insurance payout dispute brings Matt back to Georgia, an opportunity for law enforcement to act.

4. The Eavesdropping Charges (16:43)

• Strategic Arrest: Investigators use eavesdropping charges based on Matt’s years of secret family surveillance to arrest him when he returns for the civil trial.

5. Matt’s Arrest in the Courthouse (20:02–22:15)

• A Courtroom Full of Cops: Amy, at a Purim carnival, gets a call from Alex:

  “He testified, and he just kept talking, and he wouldn’t shut up... he contradicted himself a bajillion times.” —Alex (20:05)

• Dramatic Capture:

  “Evidently... he resisted when they arrested him and it was quite a show. He mouthed off... ‘I’m gonna be out on bond tomorrow...’ and Richter’s like, ‘Yeah, buddy, we’re booking you for murder. You’re not getting bond.’” —Alex (21:46)

• Richter’s Perspective: Recalls arresting Matt who suddenly loses bravado:

  “Don’t hurt me... Oh, those cops are all just stupid... when the cops were arresting him, Matt asked them to not hurt him.” —Richter (22:41–23:01)

6. Aftermath: Family Under Matt’s Control, Even from Jail (25:22–29:05)

• Continued Manipulation: Matt controls daughters Amanda and Rebecca via daily calls. Commands them to do legal research, track evidence for his defense:

  “You guys have your fun, okay? Have your fun. When I get home, both of you say goodbye to your lives outside the house... when I get home, it’s gonna be different.” —Matt (26:20)

• Amanda as ‘Lawyer’: She’s coerced to help him with legal strategy, combing recordings for evidence, threatened with phone privileges if she disobeys (27:44–28:22).
• Emotional Blackmail:

  “It became like if he was found guilty, it was my fault. I did not do enough research. I did not do my job.” —Amanda (29:05)

• YouTube Propaganda: Amanda produces videos to defend Matt, disparage Nique, and cast doubt on the family and investigation, to manipulate public (and possibly jury) perception (29:53–32:51).

7. Estrangement and Collateral Damage Among the Siblings (33:28, 34:09, 34:42)

• Sisterly Distance: Despite shared trauma, Amanda and Rebecca become isolated from each other:

  “It was like two ships in the night... we didn’t really talk to each other.” —Rebecca (33:28)

• Lack of Support: Grandfather, though legal guardian, fails to provide real support; Rebecca cares for household logistics (34:09).
• Seeking Comfort: Rebecca relies on her friend for emotional support, as family environment remains tense (34:42).

8. Trial and Lasting Fractures (35:44–36:14)

• Testimony Under Duress: Both daughters testify for Matt:

  “Is this gentleman here your dad?” “Yes.”
  “And you love him, right?” “Of course.” (35:46–35:49) “Did you ever see your dad hit your mom?” “No.”
  “Did you ever see obvious injuries or bruises to your mom?” “No, sir.” (36:00–36:05)

• Automated Loyalty:

  “I remember when the lawyer asked if I loved my dad. The blocking kicked in. That I had been taught. And I remember saying yes. And then I remember... looking at my dad like... that was the director.” —Amanda (36:14)

9. The Cost of Survival and Hope for Healing (36:34–37:05)

• Guilt and Lost Years:

  “I've trashed my mom to the world. I've made her out to be crazy.” —Amanda (36:34)

• Slow Rebuilding: The family acknowledges the pain of lost connections and the fragile work of forging new bonds:

  “It’s a work in progress because... we’ve all lost each other in some capacity already and so we feel like we’d rather have a little thin thread than nothing at all.” —Rebecca (36:45)

---

Memorable Quotes & Notable Moments

• “I didn’t lose a mom. I lost a mom and two sisters. And I mean, I knew from the get go who killed her... their safety became... terrifying.” —Alex (04:35)
• “He made it seem like a fresh start, something he was doing to get them out of the spotlight.” —Jonathan Hirsch (04:03)
• “I was like, no, no, you don’t get to bury her. You don’t get to do that. No. So I had to sue him for her remains. Won that in court.” —Alex (09:30)
• “It was like he had diarrhea of the mouth. He was, like, all over the place and contradicted himself a bajillion times.” —Alex, describing Matt’s disastrous court testimony (20:05)
• “Don’t hurt me... Oh, those cops are all just stupid.” —Matt during arrest (22:41)
• “My backbone just comes from needing to survive and find a way away from him my whole life.” —Alex (12:18)
• “If he was found guilty, it was my fault. I did not do enough research. I did not do my job.” —Amanda, on her coerced role as Matt's helper (29:05)
• “I've trashed my mom to the world. I've made her out to be crazy.” —Amanda (36:34)
• “We feel like we’d rather have a little thin thread than nothing at all.” —Rebecca (36:45)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |---|---| | 03:35 | Matt’s urgent move to Vermont with daughters | | 04:35 | Alex describes feeling abandoned and the fear for her sisters | | 09:30 | Alex sues Matt for Nique’s remains | | 11:53 | Alex starts wrongful death/insurance suit | | 14:30–15:06 | Matt’s lawyer confronts Alex in deposition | | 16:43–17:49 | Investigators lay plans for Matt’s arrest on eavesdropping charges | | 20:05–21:46 | Matt’s self-incriminating courtroom performance and dramatic arrest | | 23:22–23:59 | Richter describes Matt’s cowardice during arrest | | 25:22–29:05 | Matt manipulates Amanda and Rebecca from jail—daily calls, legal homework | | 29:53–32:51 | Amanda produces YouTube videos defending Matt and defaming Nique/family | | 33:28–34:42 | Daughters’ growing estrangement and emotional struggles | | 35:44–36:05 | Amanda and Rebecca testify for Matt—emotional coaching revealed | | 36:34–37:05 | Guilt, regret, and the fragile beginnings of family healing |

---

Tone and Storytelling

The tone is raw, confessional, and often heartbreaking, marked by the unfiltered voices of Alex, Amanda, and family members, alongside measured but impassioned narration by Jonathan Hirsch. The exchanges are candid—sometimes bitter, sometimes sorrowful—underscoring not just the crime, but the psychological casualties and the tenacity of those left behind to pick up the pieces.

---

Next Episode Teaser:
“The series finale: Matt Lyly stands trial for Nikki’s murder. Alex and her sisters reckon with love, guilt, and the long, painful process of healing.”

---

Transcript

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Listen to all episodes of Watching youg Ad Free right now by subscribing to the Binge. Visit the Binge channel on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe at the top of the page or visit getthebinge.com to get access. Wherever you listen the binge feed your true crime obsession Hi everyone, it's JVN from Getting Better with Jonathan Van Ness this season we've been talking a lot about hope.

[Alex Liley]

Not the fluffy kind, but the grounded, gritty.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

We're actually doing something kind. One of the places I term for that is Americans United for Separation of Church and State. They're this quiet and mighty force that's.

[Alex Liley]

Been working to keep religion and government.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Separate so all of us can live.

[Alex Liley]

As ourselves and believe as we choose.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

As long as we don't harm others. Church, state separation touches so many of the things we care about LGBTQI plus rights, marriage equality, reproductive freedom, and abortion access.

[Alex Liley]

Americans United is out here being one.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Of the vital voices of reason, fighting in the courts and in Congress and pushing back against Christian nationalist efforts to.

[Alex Liley]

Force everyone to live by one narrow set of beliefs. You can learn so much more about.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

What AU does and how to support.

[Alex Liley]

Their [e-mail] Getting better.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Your support, no matter the amount, helps to safeguard our freedoms. Americans United is fighting for freedom without favor and equality without exception. You can start a chapter in your hometown today. You can volunteer money or time.

[Alex Liley]

Get involved in your community. Learn [e-mail] better did you know that parents rank teaching financial literacy as the toughest life skill? That's where Greenlight comes in, the debit card and money app made for families with Greenlight. You can send money quickly, set up chores, automate allowance, and track spending with real time notifications. Kids learn how to earn, save and spend responsibly while parents have peace of mind knowing smart money habits are being built. Try Greenlight Risk free [e-mail] Spotify.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

The Bench. Hey y'.

[Alex Liley]

All.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Wanted to let you know verbal abuse and domestic violence are a part of this story. It's a cautionary tale to listen to with caution. When I was a kid, I remember spending long days in the summer outside playing sports, riding bikes, bouncing on my friend's trampoline. Sometimes I'd lie down in the grass and just stare up at the clouds. And if I looked closely enough, I'd see little movements, tiny specks undulating on the surface of my eyes, blood cells moving quietly across my vision. A movement that most of the time, I never noticed. I imagine that's how this long stretch of time felt to everyone involved in the murder case. Nikki Liley, Chris Ford and John Richter were building a case as quickly as they could under a suffocatingly mountainous body of evidence. Sometimes an indictment seemed to be just around the corner, and other times it felt impossibly far away. Nikki was found in July of 2011. About six months later in the new year, Matt moved Amanda and her younger sister Rebecca to Vermont, to the small town of Londonderry. He hadn't been charged with anything. He did seem, though, to be in quite a hurry.

[Alex Liley]

It was such a rush and I remember we weren't even really fully packed and it was like that morning my dad was like, we have to go, we're leaving today. There was still like loose things on the floor that we just ended up leaving because it was like, we're just, we're going right now. And we drove up to Vermont in like two days. We had like moving trucks in our. Two of them in our driveway. And he was like, don't worry about that. Like, they're going to come pick them up after we leave, but we have to go today.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

He made it seem like a fresh start, something he was doing to get them out of the spotlight.

[Alex Liley]

I remember him saying something like, because at the time it was like even more so, like how my house was no longer my home because it was just. I couldn't even go outside and play anymore because there was just news crews.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Always saving the girls from the prying eyes of the news cameras. Had the knock on effect of getting them away from the rest of the family. Her older sister Alex was devastated.

[Alex Liley]

They felt like they were my kids in a way. And so when they left, it just was. I didn't lose a mom. I lost a mom and two sisters. And I mean, I knew from the get go who killed her. I. There was no question in my mind. So for me, their safety became. It was terrifying.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

The court did allow mandated visits between Amanda, Rebecca and their grandparents, but Alex was not invited.

[Alex Liley]

I remember explicitly my dad was like, Alex cannot be there. She cannot be alone with you. You cannot talk to her. She's. And if she is, you have to call me. You have to call the police. She cannot be there.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

For Alex, her sisters remained just out of reach. And for them, she became a twisted story, a yarn Matt spun.

[Alex Liley]

Like that's kind of when the poisoning against my mom's side of the family started, was, well, Amy's saying this and Alex is saying this and kind of feeding this idea of they're trying to take our dad away from us. Eventually, it did kind of turn into this. We don't want to talk to them. We don't want to see them. They're trying to take us away from our dad or put him in jail for something he didn't do.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

So together with their dad, the girls started over an a frame cabin in rural Vermont. New school, new friends, same dark, unclear history. Now in the rear view, they thought. But for Alex, there were no new beginnings. The tragedy was, in fact, moving into its third act. Last time Matt came for her, it wasn't a fair fight. She was a kid now. She summoned the courage to reclaim her family and justice for Nikki.

[Alex Liley]

I didn't want him being paid to kill my mom. So I was like, I don't care if the insurance company never pays us anywhere. Like you're just not gonna get paid to do this.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

From Sony Music Entertainment. You're listening to Watching you. I'm Jonathan Hirsch. Episode 5 Breaking.

[Alex Liley]

New Year New Me right? Eat better and not have any uninvited guests breaking into my house. Seriously though, after listening to True Crime, it's hard not to double check the locks before bed. But I don't want a security system that only reacts after someone's inside. That's why I use Simplisafe. It's built to stop crimes before they even get close. Their AI powered cameras can spot a real threat while they're still outside and live monitoring agents step in. They don't just watch. They can speak directly to the intruder, let them know they're on camera, police are on the way, and even trigger a siren or spotlight. With Simplisafe, setup is a breeze. The monitoring is reliable and it gives me real peace of mind when I'm traveling or just binging True crime in the living room. Simplisafe has been named one of the best home security systems by U.S. news and World Report for five years running. And over 5 million people trust it to protect their homes. So start the year off right. Protect your home with SimpleLife and get 50% off any new system. For a limited time, go to simplisafe.com cases that's simplisafe.com cases. There's no safe like Simplisafe. Ford Bluecruise hands free. Highway driving takes the work out of being behind the wheel, allowing you to relax and reconnect while also staying in control. Enjoy the drive in Bluecruise enabled vehicles like the F150 Explorer and Mustang Mach E available feature on equipped vehicles Terms apply. Does not replace safe driving. See Ford.com BlueCruise for more details.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

It took a long time to build a criminal case against Matt Liley. Years. During that time, Nikki's sister Amy tried to accept what she couldn't change. She knew that Gwinnett and Vermont police were keeping an eye on Matt and the girls. But it felt far away to her.

[Alex Liley]

I was like, you know what? To me, he's gone. And it was sad to me that the girls were also gone. But again, nothing I could do about it. So I just had to mourn that loss and move on the best I could.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

But Alex couldn't move on. She couldn't sleep. She was consumed.

[Alex Liley]

Alex was in this fight the whole time. Of course she was living her life and working, you know, doing day to day things, but she was, she was still in that fight that entire time. That is staggering to me.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

And it was that persistence that brought the case against Matt Lyly into sharper focus. It all started when Alex refused to let Matt get Nikki's remains. After the autopsy, he was going to.

[Alex Liley]

Try to like, crema her, bury her, take possession of her body. He tried to have his own service. And I was like, no, no, you don't get to bury her. You don't get to do that. No. So I had to sue him for her remains. Won that in court.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Alex got to have a funeral for her mother at a church in Athens. But it was bittersweet because her sisters weren't there. Amanda knew the funeral was happening.

[Alex Liley]

It wasn't necessarily that he didn't allow us to go, but he made it feel like it was our decision not to go.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

A decision, mind you. He was leaving up to the discretion of girls 9 and 12 years old.

[Alex Liley]

Basically, the way he framed it was, oh, so mommy's funeral's today. Do you guys want to go?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Do you guys want to go to mommy's funeral?

[Alex Liley]

We said, yes, of course. And then he was like, okay, but I'm not invited. They're not letting me go. And so it was basically like, okay, now we had to choose between supporting our dad or getting that closure with our mom and saying goodbye to her. And so he basically framed it as, like, looking back, you can very clearly tell, like he's telling us he doesn't want us to go.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Amanda and Rebecca at this point understand only that their mother had died tragically, that she'd left late one Friday night and never returned, that their sister and aunt believed their dad had killed her. It's as though the Girls were on opposite sides of soundproof glass, shouting into the void. Alex was no doubt the loudest voice.

[Alex Liley]

And I was like, no, sir, you're not. You might not be arrested yet, but you're a prime suspect in this investigation. And so I sued him. I sued him for the rights to her body, and I sued him over the life insurance. And I was like, nope.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Turned out Nikki, as a breadwinner, had the foresight to take out multiple life insurance policies. She had three with State Farm. They were worth a half a million dollars, payable at the time of death. And the primary beneficiary was none other than Matt Liley. So Alex's lawyer, a man named Noel Benedict, gave her some advice.

[Alex Liley]

You need to sue for wrongful death to stop the life insurance from being paid to him. He was like, just, you need to stop the life insurance. And the only way to do that right now is to file a civil suit, because he's not being charged criminally right now.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

That's how Alex, all of 19 years old, opened up another front in her ongoing battle with Matt. It was terribly hard, but necessary.

[Alex Liley]

There's a lot of history there. Sorry, I don't talk about that very well, but there was a lot of abuse as a very young child, even as young as 4 years old. So I think my backbone just comes from needing to survive and find a way away from him my whole life.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

State Farm started a routine investigation, as they do in cases of homicide, into whether or not Matt was invol. Because in Georgia, a murderer can't get insurance proceeds even if they are the beneficiary. He pleads his case on calls with them. He told one agent that he hasn't been charged or arrested and protested his innocence. He also told Carol that's the name of the agent. That his wife's family blamed him and thought he was controlling. He denied he was. One time in September, about six weeks after Nikki's murder, was particularly revealing. Two State Farm agents were comparing notes about Matt, and they not only caught him in a lie, they found possible evidence of premeditation. Carol said Matt told her that he didn't know about the life insurance policies. Her male colleague explained that he had email conversations with Matt about Nikki's policies months ago. In other words, before she was murdered. So Alex's lawyer, Noel Benedict, had advised her to sue Matt for wrongful death. But before that happened, State Farm filed a civil action of their own to determine whether or not they should pay Matt the money or whether the insurance payout should go to Nikki's girls. At one point, a bunch of Nikki's family members got deposed. At question for Matt's attorney was the notion that Nikki's family was simply prejudiced against him. That her murder, the questions around the timeline of her disappearance, the clear signs of abuse were all part of an orchestrated attempt to pin her death on him. And so Matt's lawyer, when he's talking to Alex during her deposition, leaned in.

[Alex Liley]

You. And I don't think this is a secret. You dislike Matt Ly.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yes.

[Alex Liley]

You hate Madeline.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yes.

[Alex Liley]

And have you ever liked Mr. Lyly?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

No.

[Alex Liley]

Do you believe Mr. Lyly's a monster?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yes.

[Alex Liley]

And have you sent Mr. Lally a text message that says that you want.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Him to rot in jail?

[Alex Liley]

Yes.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

And have you posted on Facebook that.

[Alex Liley]

You think Mr. Liley is a piece of shit?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yes.

[Alex Liley]

And do you believe that in fact.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

To be the case?

[Alex Liley]

Yes.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Okay. There's something truly bizarre going on here and something I've noticed time and again digging into this case. Matt's defense rests on this idea that it mattered, that Alex wanted him to rot in prison, that she called him a piece of shit on Facebook. But does it really? Because Matt's not fighting to become class president. He's fighting for his freedom. Seems to me that he took the bait and made the insurance payout dispute personal. And by doing that, exposed himself in other ways. And this suit, the money at stake, it was enough to bring him back into the sight lines of the Gwinnett county homicide investigators when in 2015, he came down to Atlanta to testify once and for all. Lawyers for Matt and Alex would each plead their case regarding the insurance payout in federal court. With Matt coming back to Georgia to testify, Richter and the team saw an opportunity, but it was not without risk. Yes, it was a debate. Matt's story had changed depending on who he was talking to. Footage from the night Nikki disappeared was missing, and it was clear that Matt had had something to do with its disappearance. He'd surveilled his own family for years, but when you think about it, is that enough to convict him of murder? Would a jury really put him behind bars for life? Lisa Jones, the assistant da, knew they needed a contingency, and they got one by filing a different charge against Matt.

[Alex Liley]

There was lots of planning that went into that, which is why we took the eavesdropping warrants to start with, because we were trying to figure out a little bit more. And it was difficult because we could again. He was in Vermont and he had left and, you know, Gone. And we knew that he was coming back here for the federal trial on the life insurance. And so we knew that he was going to be here for that trial, which would make our lives a lot easier if he was local. And we did not have to take arrest warrants for him in Vermont and then have to have him extradited from Vermont to Georgia.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

And Richter told me he was afraid to serve Matt a warrant in Vermont, that it might endanger the girls.

[Alex Liley]

And also, we wanted the opportunity to surprise. The element of surprise, quite frankly, just to see, because, you know, he's coming back to try to claim his insurance policy on his wife, who we firmly believed at that point and thought we had enough evidence to charge him that he was the one responsible. We absolutely didn't. Didn't want him getting that insurance money. We wanted the daughters to get what they were entitled to and not him to benefit from. But it was kind of the idea of, let's figure this out.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

So they went after him on another charge, eavesdropping.

[Alex Liley]

We had those recordings where we knew that he'd recorded Nikki, like I said, talking to her dad, talking to her sister. And it was clear she had no idea that he was. There were times where she'd talk about him, you know, to them and that sort of thing, and clearly had no idea that he's listening to all of it.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

And in an ironic twist of fate, as Matt boarded a plane from Vermont to Georgia, he had no idea that he was now the one being watched by U.S. marshals in plain clothes who had boarded the flight with him en route to Atlanta, his final destination.

[Alex Liley]

Close your eyes. Exhale. Feel your body relax. And let go of whatever you're car. Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh, my gosh, they're so fast. And breathe. Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

1-800-Contacts.

[Alex Liley]

This episode is brought to you by McAfee. I got a message that our flight was canceled, but they can put us on another flight and we just need to confirm our credit card info. Wait, I got a security alert from McAfee. It flagged that message as a scam. McAfee's scam detector automatically spots and alerts you to suspicious texts, emails, and deep fake videos. Learn [e-mail] online protection.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Amy will never forget the day Matt showed up in court, though she wasn't there. She was at a Purim carnival at her synagogue. It's a Jewish holiday where you dress up in costume.

[Alex Liley]

I was dressed as Sally from the Nightmare Before Christmas. So I had, like, this big old rag doll wig and, like, you know, stitches, you know, on my face. I looked ridiculous.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

That's when Alex called her from the courtroom.

[Alex Liley]

So she's like, oh, my God, Amy. It was a miracle. She said, he testified, and he just kept talking, and he wouldn't shut up. And she was like. It was like he had diarrhea of the mouth. He was, like, all over the place and contradicted himself a bajillion times. And she was giddy about it. She was like, oh, my God.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

They had no idea what was about to go down.

[Alex Liley]

And what we didn't know at the time, but we found out a couple hours later, was that the courtroom was crawling with plainclothes Gwinnett police, including John Richter. And so they were all there sitting there watching him perjure himself, basically in federal court. And then they waited for the court proceedings to be over that, and they arrested him. I was stunned. I was like, oh, my God. Wow. I had gotten to a point where, like I said, like, a point of acceptance, where I was like, okay, this is. This is the world I live in now, is that my sister was murdered by her husband, and the son of a bitch got away with that was the reality that I had been living in for five years. He was arrested in the courthouse. They stopped him and arrested him that day.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Alex was already driving back home, and.

[Alex Liley]

I was like, damn it. I missed it. Like, I just. Because apparently he kind of put up a fight, evidently. My understanding is that he resisted when they arrested him and that it was quite a show. And at one point, I think he mouthed off to him and was like, oh, whatever, you know, I'm gonna be out on bond tomorrow, and blah, blah, blah. And the whole time, Richter's like, yeah, buddy, we're booking you for murder. You're not getting bond.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Here's how Richter said it went down.

[Alex Liley]

It was just me and my partner, Whaley, and a guy named Deion Washington.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

He was in the homicide unit. We brought him with us. So we surveilled the court a little.

[Alex Liley]

Bit, but we knew and we communicated because it was federal court, so we had to communicate with the federal people, and the judge had to be aware of what we were gonna do.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

We waited till he got in the elevator, he just exited the doors till.

[Alex Liley]

Like the end of the day of court. And that's when we got.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

And of course, don't hurt me, don't is the first thing he says.

[Alex Liley]

Now, Deion, my partner, Washington, he's a big guy, right, and he's putting the handcuffs on him and I'm standing there.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Telling him, you're under arrest, blah, blah, blah, just like tv, right? So he's like, don't hurt me. He's six, five, he's two, six, don't hurt me. Oh, those cuffs, that's such a little. You know what I mean? Like, he's a big tough guy when.

[Alex Liley]

He'S sitting on Strel and Nikki and.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Abusing her verbally and physically. But when the cops were arresting him, Matt asked them to not hurt him. Nearly four years after John Richter made that promise in the woods, they found Nikki's body. He delivered. Matt was placed in the front seat of Richter's unmarked detective car.

[Alex Liley]

And now we're driving back, right?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

It's a good 40 minute drive. And I want to talk to him. I want this guy to talk to me. He goes to sleep, that's how, you know, that's how concerned he was. He just dozed off. You know, I'm just trying to shoot this shit. I'm trying to build rapport, you know, I know him. He thinks I'm an idiot. He says it over, not me personally, but the police in general. And that's something you don't forget when someone says, oh, those cops are all just stupid. He already told us in the car, I ain't talking to you, but we like to sit down, put him in the chair, right, and read him his rights.

[Alex Liley]

And that's when I told him, you.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Know, not just the eavesdropping warrant, but you're being charged with murder as well. Alex slept well that night for the first time in a long time.

[Alex Liley]

I don't think my grief process started until he was arrested. I don't think I even processed that she was dead until he was arrested. Because all I didn't sleep at night. I mean, I lived on Klonopin, to be perfectly honest, because it was the only way I could sleep, because I was scared he was coming for me, and rightfully so, because I'm pretty sure he wanted to bury me. And I'm the bitch he was talking about in that call.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Paul, I want to bury the bitch. I want to bury the whole fucking family. Matt was assigned a public defender. The trial date was set. It's astonishing. How effective Matt had been at keeping Alex from his daughters while he was behind bars awaiting trial. Amanda and Rebecca stayed with Matt's father at that cabin in Vermont. Matt's car sat unused, his things unmoved. Everything in that house was supposed to be on pause until he got back.

[Alex Liley]

You couldn't touch his car because he was coming back. It was never touched, never driven. He was coming back, and that was all of his stuff.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

And their job in the meantime was to help him get out.

[Alex Liley]

I basically became his lawyer because he didn't trust the public defender. And so the phone calls were every single day. And we were probably talking to him for, like, three hours a day. And even, like, the ones where I'm not really talking, like, I was on the phone. Like, we had two lines, and we would be on separate phones on the same line. So it's like, even, like, where, like, I would answer the phone and, like, maybe say something. And then he'd have me put Amanda on, like, I'm still on the. The line.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Like, was saying the girls had to be ready to take his call. Thank you for using Securus. You may start the conversation now.

[Alex Liley]

I don't know. I told the man to do it. And she was like. And she was like, you can do it. Get the ipod and plug it in. And I was like, I don't know where to plug it in.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

You guys have your fun, okay? Have your fun. When I get home, both of you say goodbye to your lights outside the house. That includes sports, boyfriends, everything. So have your fun now, okay? Because when I get home, it's gonna be different.

[Alex Liley]

You may start the conversation now.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Make a note of this, Granddaddy. When I was talking to him, he flat out says, I never knew nothing. They don't tell me nothing.

[Alex Liley]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Dad, I need on tape, okay? I need you to. This week, up until January, whatever, you're gonna have to go back and review some of those recordings and find some juicy stuff that we can use for our evidence.

[Alex Liley]

I need you to find that cassette.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Recorder and the power cord for you. Don't forget. Because if I call you tomorrow and decide to do it or something, I don't want to. Oh, I didn't find. Do this and that. I mean, I might as well just go to prison either. You know, reminding you 16 times to do something. I mean, this is just. It's too much trouble. It really is. I have more stress over getting you to do something. Did you even tell Pop about the fucking bills?

[Alex Liley]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Oh, no.

[Alex Liley]

I was gonna Tell him later. It was basically, I'd go to school, I come home, I'd try and get as much homework as I could done before he called. And then he would call and he'd ask, oh, did you do this? This and this?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Hey, buddy, listen, I'm here to ask you for something, and I'm probably gonna have to threaten you and everything else. Okay, I need you by Monday to write a report on all eight or nine videos. The first line will be, this video is from the deposit from the wrongful death deposition dated, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I need that by Monday. This is life or death. I need it by Monday for all videos. I will. If you don't do it by Monday, I will take your phone away forever.

[Alex Liley]

Okay?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

This is my life. You understand?

[Alex Liley]

Yes, sir. Sometimes I could lie and get away with it, or sometimes he'd call me out on it like, oh, did you hear this part? And I'd say, oh, yeah, I heard that. And he's like, oh, well, that wasn't in that recording. So you're lying. So, like, I'd get in trouble for not doing the lawyer homework. He responded because I was doing my school homework instead. And like, I tell him, like, I'm sorry, I had this big assignment for AP Bio. And he's like, well, do you want me to come home or not? There was one point where he was like, do you love me? So it became like, if he was found guilty, it was my fault. I did not do enough research. I did not do my job.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

The research he was talking about was about her mom's murder. She had to listen to all the same recordings that John Richter did.

[Alex Liley]

He's got me researching what wines have the highest caused the highest GHB levels to use for his defense.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

GHB is a chemical commonly found in the so called date rape drug. The toxicology report had noted elevated levels of it in Nikki's body after she died. Matt's demands on Amanda and Rebecca were unrelenting. Their lives were basically consumed with his legal problems. Perhaps the most egregious example of Matt using the girls for his protection was the YouTube videos.

[Alex Liley]

The YouTube videos? We released them right before the bail hearing.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Amanda cut them all herself.

[Alex Liley]

We need to make sure our side of the story gets out. Everything has always all been that side of the family. I know once my mom married my dad, she finally started standing up for herself and started saying no and started saying that she wanted nothing to do with her family. And they've never left, liked my dad and I've been reading things online, I've been watching the news and I can see the hatred that they have for my dad and it's just ridiculous, the lies they're spreading. We need to get our story out so then the public knows. And I don't remember if he actually said this or if he just like kind of insinuated, but I think part of it was to also, prior to the trial, make sure that jury members or possible jury members would see this stuff and he could sway them before the trial.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

The videos take aim at Nikki claiming she heard voices the morning she called 911. They imply that her father might have had something to do with her death. He was a retired chemist for the epa.

[Alex Liley]

Funny if you knew our grandfather. He's the sweetest goofball. Yeah, he used to do an impression of Donald Duck all the time. He still does. He still does it. He's a very, very good Donald Duck too. He's kind of aloof, like he's just.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

He's not plotting the murder of his daughter. The YouTube videos question the manner and timing in which the body was found.

[Alex Liley]

The police, who had searched for her body for a week, it's their job to find missing people. And Alex and her sister and Amy managed to go to search party together and find her body in seven minutes. And the news crews happened to be there to find us all. And I just, I find that really suspicious and really off putting.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

And perhaps given what we know now, the most alarming of claims that Nikki's own peril inside the relationship with Matt was itself a fabrication.

[Alex Liley]

The media and the news, they picked up on a Jerry Springer type sob story of domestic violence and they spread it like wildfire all over the place. Honestly, we can't wait to face his family in court and call out their lies. And they've done nothing but cause us pain and torment. And our day in court will come and hopefully my dad will be able to come home.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

In one video, after these words, the screen goes black, then says Nikki's voice will be heard and the truth will come out. At least that part was true amidst all this chaos with the upcoming trial and Matt's demands. Amanda and Rebecca are so young, 16 and 13 years old, believing, or at least behaving as people who believed their dad was innocent. But despite having been through this together, despite sharing a room and a bunk bed, they weren't confidants.

[Alex Liley]

We didn't talk much at all, even while still being scared of him. Like, I still believed he was innocent and Even in the years when he was arrested. And as I was saying, like, Amanda. And I was just like, it was like two ships in the night. Like, it was like we were not. We didn't really talk to each other. Like, when it was at school, like, it was like people were surprised when they, like, would know that we had the same last name. And they're like, are you guys related? And it was like, yeah, she's. She's my sister. But it was like, we just didn't have any of that type of relationship.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

And the relationship between the girls and their grandfather wasn't any better.

[Alex Liley]

Legally, he was our guardian, but I was the one that was managing the bank account and making sure bills were paid and making grocery lists and meal plans. Like, he would cook, but it was okay. This is the meal plan I had set up. Monday night. We're making this. These are the groceries we bought. This was the budget. Making sure that my dad's commissary was paid and the jail phone calls and all of that. Like, he had money in his account. My grandfather didn't do any of that.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Rebecca increasingly leaned on her best friend.

[Alex Liley]

I basically clung to my best friend at the time. And I was around her 24 7. Like, I was either at her house, she lived not too far down the road, or she was at mine. And I feel horrible that I put her in that position. But she did become that shield for me. And my grandfather would still scream at me in front of her.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

They would fight about little things, like who left the ceiling fan on. But Rebecca and Amanda remember someone who, like his son, their dad, could be combative, angry. These girls no longer had a father or a mother. They barely seemed to have each other at that time. And the environment they were living in was neither supportive or loving from their accounts. But when their father finally went on trial for the murder of their mother, they testified on his behalf. They tried to convince the world what they had been led to believe, that he couldn't possibly have killed their mother.

[Alex Liley]

Is this gentleman here your dad? Yes.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Okay.

[Alex Liley]

And you love him, right? Of course.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Very briefly describe the relationship that your mom and dad.

[Alex Liley]

They loved each other. Did they ever fight, argue? They did argue, yes.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Did you ever see your dad hit your mom?

[Alex Liley]

No.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Did you ever see any obvious injuries.

[Alex Liley]

Or bruises to your mom?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

No, sir. Next time, the series finale of Watching you. Matt Lyly is on trial for Nikki's murder.

[Alex Liley]

I remember when the lawyer asked if I loved my dad. The blocking kicked in. That I had been taught. And I remember saying yes. And then I remember like turning and looking at my dad like it was like that was the director.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

The conviction brings justice, but doesn't bring closure.

[Alex Liley]

I've trashed my mom to the world. I've made her out to be crazy.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

And for the first time in many years, Nikki's girls come together to pick up the pieces.

[Alex Liley]

It's a work in progress because I genuinely believe it's all born out of fear of losing one or the other, because we've all lost each other in some capacity already and so we feel like we'd rather have a little thing thread than nothing at all.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Unlock All Episodes of Watching youg Ad Free Right now by subscribing to the Binge Podcast Channel. Not only will you immediately unlock all episodes of this show, but you will get binge access to an entire network of other great true crime and investigative podcasts. All ad free. Plus, on the first of every month, subscribers get a binge drop of a brand new series that's all episodes all at once. Search for the binge on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe at the top of the page, not on apple. Head to getthebinge.com to get access wherever you listen. Watching you is an original production of Sony Music Entertainment. It's hosted and reported by me, Jonathan Hirsch. Jason Hoke of Waveland Media is our lead producer and co reported the series with me. Kathryn St. Louis is our story editor from Sony Music Entertainment. The executive producers are Kathryn St. Louis and Jonathan Hirsch. Sound design and mixing by Scott Son Somerville. We use music from Epidemic Sound and apm. Our fact checker is Naomi Barr. Our production managers are Tamika Balance Kolasny and Sami Allison. Our lawyer is Meenakshi Krishnan. Special thanks to Steve Ackerman, Emily Rosik, Jamie Myers, and the whole team at Sony Podcasts. If you're enjoying the podcast, please rate and leave us a review. Thank you so much for listening.

[Alex Liley]

Margot Freshwater. She's like a legend. Hot off a killing spree with a boyfriend twice her age, she was given a life sentence.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

You'll be delivered to the Warren of the State Penitentiary in Asheville. They'll be confined for a period of 99 years.

[Alex Liley]

But that didn't last long.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

She basically walked out of prison. And then she was able to stay hidden for 32 years.

[Alex Liley]

But one investigator never stopped looking. It goes from chasing a ghost to she does exist. For over 30 years, Margot Freshwater outrank the law. Now she's done running and for the first time ever, she's ready to tell her side. I wanted to get my story out there, the way it really went down. From Sony Music Entertainment, this is the crimes of Margo Freshwater. Coming January 1st to the Binge Listen wherever you get your podcasts.