Watching You | 6. Nique’s Girls

Summary

The Binge Cases: Watching You

Episode 6: Nique’s Girls

Host: Jonathan Hirsch
Release Date: January 5, 2026
Podcast by: Sony Music Entertainment

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Episode Overview

This sixth episode, “Nique’s Girls,” delves into the emotional aftermath of Dominique “Nique” Leili’s murder, focusing on the impact on her three daughters—Amanda, Rebecca, and Alex. The episode unpacks the traumas of abuse, manipulation, and control perpetrated by Nique’s husband, Matt Leili, whose conviction for her murder divided the sisters and their extended family for years. Through deeply personal testimony, courtroom memories, and a raw reunion, the episode explores manipulation, gradual awakening, and the painstaking process of healing.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Testimony and Manipulation: The Daughters on the Stand

• Amanda and Rebecca’s Defense of Their Father

  • Both daughters recount their efforts to defend Matt during his trial, following well-rehearsed scripts he coached them with from jail.
  • Amanda (02:50): “I was 100%. My dad's innocent. He didn't do this…”
  • Both sisters reflect on only later realizing how much of what they said was untrue and orchestrated.
  • Rebecca (03:08): “When the lawyer asked if I loved my dad, the blocking kicked in that I had been taught. ... It was like at this point I say this line and I look at my dad… that’s the moment that was created.”

• Pressure and Emotional Control During Testimony

  • Amanda describes constantly seeking her father's approval during questioning, feeling validated or chastised by his reactions after each answer.
  • Amanda (03:38): “I’d be looking at him after I answered each question and, like, I’d feel good if he was smiling at me. ... There was one time ... he had this, like, almost disappointed look. And I was like, oh, I fucked up.”

• Awareness of Falsehoods and Conflict

  • In court, Amanda internally struggled, aware she was about to “absolutely trash these people on the stand,” realizing the extent of the manipulation (05:38).
  • Seeds of doubt about their father's innocence are traced back to this trial moment, a feeling that later blossomed after the verdict.

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2. The Prosecution’s Challenge: Lisa Jones’ Gentle Approach

• Handling Victims on the Stand

  • Prosecutor Lisa Jones understood Amanda and Rebecca were also victims and handled them with care to avoid further harm.
  • Amy (07:14): “She was so gentle with them because we all knew they were lying, or at least Amanda was lying. Lisa caught her in a lie ... but we knew why. We weren't mad at her about it.”

• Revelation of Matt’s Coaching

  • Lisa directly confronted Amanda with evidence: recordings of Matt calling from jail with instructions for testifying (07:14–08:07).

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3. Revelations of Abuse

• Chilling Audio Evidence

  • Family members and the jury heard disturbing recordings capturing the escalation of Matt’s abuse, not just mental but physical, including an incident where Nique called her sister Amy about Matt choking her (08:13–10:21).
  • Amy (09:26): “You can hear because she's no longer talking at that point. ... he has done something to silence her right then.”

• Prosecutor’s Argument: The Missing Surveillance

  • The most telling evidence was the absence of surveillance footage during the hours Nique went missing, suggesting deliberate deletion (11:08).

• Circumstances of Nique’s Death

  • Prosecution contended Nique was drugged, killed (likely suffocated), and moved post-mortem; the details told a story of control and cover-up (11:08–12:49).

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4. The Verdict and The Aftermath

• Jury’s Swift Decision

  • After just three hours of deliberation, Matt was found guilty of malice and felony murder, plus unlawful eavesdropping. He was sentenced to life without parole (13:36).
  • Amanda (13:33): “I found out through the news.”

• Family’s Emotional Divide

  • Matt’s daughters, originally convinced of his innocence, watched as Nique’s family rejoiced, deepening the chasm of loyalty and resentment (14:09–14:34).

• Gradual Realization: Children Coming to Terms

  • Watching themselves on TV and comparing their rehearsed testimony to Matt’s jail calls, Amanda and Rebecca started questioning the narrative they’d lived under (14:59, 16:00).
  • Amanda (14:59): “Seeing ... the recordings of the jail phone calls ... and like seeing how robotic I was ... that's my voice. But those aren't my words. ... It felt like I started coming out of this fog.”

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5. Cutting Ties and Struggles for Healing

• Consequences of Doubt

  • When Amanda confessed doubt to her grandfather, Matt instantly cut her off, confirming the conditional love and manipulation that defined their relationship (16:22–17:06).

• Mental Health Toll

  • Amanda describes a difficult period of suicidal ideation, alienation, and struggling to process the truth after leaving her family home. Support came from her now-husband’s family (17:06–19:03).

• Rebecca’s Break From Matt

  • Rebecca’s own break happened after sending a confrontational email to Matt and being permanently ignored—she describes Matt dropping any pretense of parental love once his control failed (19:40).

• Delayed Justice

  • Legal proceedings held up the payout of Nique’s life insurance, which only arrived years later, signifying some measure of closure (20:40–21:03).

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6. Domestic Violence Misunderstood by the Public

• Media and Expert Failures
  • Coverage of the case often regurgitated the defense’s narrative, painting Nique as an unstable attention-seeker, even as the abuse was apparent to those close to her (22:11–22:47).
  • Amanda, Rebecca, and others reflect on how easily the story gets twisted—and the importance of understanding coercive control.

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7. Matt's Control: The Breast Implant Contract

• Extreme Documentation of Ownership
  • A stark symbol of Matt’s need for control: a contract, written by Nique, giving Matt “full and sole ownership” over her breast implants, with the right to have them removed at his discretion (26:37–28:30).
  • Contract excerpt (27:25): “I ... do hereby agree to allow my loving, devoted husband, Matt J. Liley, to retain full and sole ownership of the breast implants ... including, but not limited to any marital separations, belief of infidelity, or any other reason he may deem.”

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8. The Sisters Reunite

• Rebuilding Bonds
  • After years of estrangement, Amanda, Rebecca, and Alex reunite, navigating awkwardness and trauma through conversation, shared memories, and catharsis.
  • Rebecca (30:20): “The first thing I did was I said, I forgot how short you are.”
  • They talk honestly about their mental health journeys, therapy, and the ongoing work toward reestablishing their sisterly connections (31:11–33:48).

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9. Living With Complexity: Good Memories of a Murderer

• Permission for Positive Memories

  • The sisters process the paradox of recalling happy moments with their father, despite knowing he killed their mother.
  • Rebecca (31:50): “Can I still remember this good memory of my father with the shadow that he killed my mother? ... Am I allowed to enjoy this memory still?”
  • Amy (32:14): “Yes, you can.”

• Hope for the Future

  • The girls express desire to recapture good memories of their mother and hope their renewed relationships don’t fade, acknowledging the ever-present complexities of loss and trauma (33:59–34:47).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Amanda (14:59):
  “That’s not me, though. Like, that’s my voice. But those aren’t my words. Like, it felt like I started coming out of this fog.”
  [On realizing her testimony was coached by Matt after seeing jail calls on TV]

• Amy (07:14):
  “She was so gentle with them because we all knew they were lying, or at least Amanda was lying. ... We knew these girls are just trying to survive this.”
  [On prosecutor Lisa Jones’ approach in court]

• Rebecca (19:40):
  “I wanted a father and not a chess player. And I never heard from my own.”
  [On breaking free from Matt’s manipulations]

• Jonathan Hirsch (24:30):
  “What we see with Matt and Nikki is a frightening cautionary tale... When does sacrifice become abuse? It’s not always easy to see.”

• Contract Excerpt (27:25):
  “I, Dominique C. Liley, do hereby agree to allow my loving, devoted husband, Matt J. Liley, to retain full and sole ownership of the breast implants … He has earned the right to have full ownership of the implants and at his discretion, request that they be removed …”

• Rebecca (31:50):
  “Can I still remember this good memory of my father with the shadow that he killed my mother? ... Am I allowed to enjoy this memory still?”

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:50−06:27: Amanda & Rebecca recall trial testimony and manipulation
• 07:14–08:07: Prosecutor Lisa Jones gently confronts the girls, reveals jail call evidence
• 08:13–10:21: Amy describes hearing recordings of abuse, chilling realization of the depth of Matt’s control
• 11:08–12:49: Details of prosecution’s case: deleted surveillance, circumstances of Nique’s death
• 13:32–14:34: Verdict, sentencing, and emotional reactions
• 14:59–19:03: Amanda and Rebecca’s gradual awakening and breaking from Matt
• 26:37–28:30: Reading and discussion of Nique's breast implant ownership contract
• 30:00–33:48: The sisters’ reunion, rebuilding relationships and processing mixed emotions about their father

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Conclusion

“Nique’s Girls” offers a raw and compassionate look at the ripple effects of domestic violence and manipulation. More than a true crime narrative, it centers the aftermath for survivors—Nique’s daughters—who must untangle loyalties, trauma, and the need for healing. The episode stands as both a warning and a testament to resilience, and concludes with hope: that through honest conversation and remembrance, even those devastated by such tragedy may begin to heal and reconnect.

Transcript

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Listen to all episodes of Watching youg Ad Free right now by subscribing to the Binge. Visit the Binge channel on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe at the top of the page or visit getthebinge.com to get access. Wherever you listen the binge feed your.

[Jonathan Van Ness]

True crime obsession Hi everyone, it's JVN from Getting Better with Jonathan Van Ness this season we've been talking a lot about hope. Not the fluffy kind, but the grounded, gritty. We're actually doing something kind. One of the places I term for that is Americans United for Separation of Church and State. They're this quiet and mighty force that's been working to keep religion and government separate so all of us can live as ourselves and believe as we choose, as long as we don't harm others. Church, state, separation touches so many of the things we care about LGBTQI plus rights, marriage equality, reproductive freedom and abortion access. Americans United is out here being one of the vital voices of reason, fighting in the courts and in Congress and pushing back against Christian nationalist efforts to force everyone to live by one narrow set of beliefs. You can learn so much more about what AU does and how to support their [e-mail] Getting better. Your support, no matter the amount, helps to safeguard our freedoms. Americans United is fighting for freedom without favor and equality without exception. You can start a chapter in your hometown today. You can volunteer money or time. Get involved in your community. Learn [e-mail] better.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

The bench. Hey y'. All. Wanted to let you know verbal abuse and domestic violence are a part of this story. It's a cautionary tale to listen to with caution. When I first came across the story of Nikki Liley, an old and familiar feeling washed over me. There's more to this story now on its face, that has never been enough for me to take on a case, but this felt different. Not only were there missing pieces to the puzzle in the media reporting, there were missing pieces in the lives of these girls, Nikki's girls. And I'm not sure how I knew that, but I felt driven to bring closure for them. When I called up Amy, she'll tell you that she politely told me to kick rocks. You seem like a nice person, she said. But no, we're not going to go through what we went through again. When Matt went on trial, Amanda and Rebecca were just kids in the murder trial of their dad. They were on the other side of the aisle from their aunt and their own sister.

[Amanda]

I was 100%. My dad's innocent. He didn't do this Amanda, in the.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Intervening years, had become Matt's unofficial counsel. She was there to defend him with a carefully scripted and rehearsed set of answers. Rebecca was also there to represent her dad in whatever way he saw fit.

[Rebecca]

I remember I was the last one to go. I didn't look around at anybody. And I remember when the lawyer asked if I loved my dad, the blocking kicked in that I had been taught. And I remember saying yes. And then I, like, remember, like, turning and looking at my dad. Like it was like that was the director. Like, it was like, at this point I say this line and I look at my dad and that's. And that's the moment that was created.

[Amanda]

While I was testifying. I'd be looking at him after I answered each question and, like, I'd feel good if he was smiling at me. And I was like, okay, that means I said what I should have said. I remember there was one time like I answered something and Lisa was tough. She did not take it easy on us.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Lisa Jones, the assistant da.

[Amanda]

I can't remember what exactly I said, but I said something in a way that allowed Lisa to kind of be like, oh, but you said this earlier. It caused me to trip up. And I remember looking over at my dad, he had this, like, almost disappointed look. And I was like, oh, I fucked up. I was like, okay, now how do I fix it? And so then I'd say something horrible about how I hated Alex or I hated Granddaddy or Nana for trying to take us away. And then I'd look back over and he'd smile.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

What they said or didn't say on that day was a blur.

[Amanda]

I don't remember half of what I said, and the only thing I do know is probably 90% of it wasn't true.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Amy was there for Amanda and Rebecca's testimony. It was the first time she'd seen them in a long time.

[Amy]

It had been five years since we had laid eyes on them. You know, they were young ladies. That was stunning. I was like, wow, who are these people? We lost so much time. I had like this five year hole where I don't even know what their life was.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Amy said she avoided watching the YouTube videos the girls made the way. She also avoided drinking Drano. And on the stand, she was disgusted watching how the girls had been manipulated. But she also knew that they were more than what Matt had coached them to say. And on some level, too, Amanda knew what she was saying about Nikki's family wasn't quite right. Even she was in court Saying it.

[Amanda]

I think there was like a brief moment, like, I looked at them, I saw them, and I was like, I'm about to absolutely trash these people on the stand. I know that's what I'm going to have to say in order for my dad to be found not guilty.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Something began simmering inside of Amanda that day. Rebecca, too. This trial would be a moment of truth for everyone involved, even if the truth was not what Matt wanted his daughters to believe.

[Amanda]

Looking back now, that's probably where a lot of the doubt started to creep in. Is seeing them again and having that feeling of I'm about to say these horrible things and I don't know if I actually believe them.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

From Sony Music Entertainment, you're listening to Watching you. I'm Jonathan Hirsch. Episode 6 Nikki's Girls. An emotionally difficult task was ahead for the prosecutor Lisa Jones. This moment. The murder trial of Nikki Liley, was nearly five years in the making. But to be successful, Lisa would have to confront Amanda and Rebecca about their version of events, which they faithfully relayed on behalf of Matt. These girls were victims, too, and the jury wouldn't take too kindly to a prosecutor eviscerating them on the stand.

[Amy]

It was hard to watch them. And I was very grateful for Lisa Jones in that moment and her approach to those girls. She was so gentle with them because we all knew they were lying, or at least Amanda was lying. Lisa caught her in a lie, right? She said that? No, I made the videos myself. My dad didn't tell me what to say. My dad didn't tell me what to do. And then Lisa played the phone call where he from jail was calling her and telling her exactly what to say and exactly what to do. We all knew she was lying, but we knew why. We weren't mad at her about it. And we knew these girls are just trying to survive this.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Many of the details the prosecutor laid out, Amy was hearing in full for the first time.

[Amy]

It starts with the mental abuse. It starts with emotionally just crushing someone to the point where they don't have footing to be able to push back. I had no idea how much of it there was. In particular, there was the recording they had where you hear him, he says, God damn it, God damn it, God damn it. And, you know, lower your voice. And that was chilling to me. And after that happened, after we listened to that recording and I get into the victim witness room and I remember I picked up one of the big throw pillows from that couch and I looked at Alex and I said, I am going to Punch this pillow repeatedly for a while, you know, and then I did it. And I guess I was so livid.

[Rebecca]

Oh, wow.

[Amy]

I knew that they fought a lot, but I had no idea what she was living in. Like, what. What kind of hell she was going through. Like you can hear because she's no longer talking at that point. She. And so he has done something to silence her right then it was pretty clear he was physically assaulting her in some kind of way.

[Amanda]

When we got in that goddamn car.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

God damn it. God damn it. God damn it.

[Jonathan Van Ness]

God damn it.

[John Richter]

God damn it. God damn it. Fucking damn it. Blow your voice. I am not gonna sit here and listen to this shit.

[Amy]

I knew about the fight they had had three years prior, you know, because she called me and told me. And yeah, Matt tried to say that it never happened and that she made it up.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Amy's talking about the time her sister called her and said Matt had put his hands around her throat. But even with all that, she already knew about the terrible situation Nikki had with Matt. Hearing the audio of their fights was almost too much for Amy to take.

[Amy]

It was all this salacious, awful audio. It was not.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Her.

[Amy]

It was not her normal self. It was not the her that I. It was not the her that I just called and had conversations with and stuff. It was this awful version of her where not that she was being awful, but where she was being treated so awfully, she was being so abused.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Alex was there too. While Lisa Jones laid out the closing arguments. There was, according to the prosecution, a long standing history of abusive and controlling behavior and signs of a cover up. The smoking gun was, in a way, the absence of a smoking gun. The deleted logs showed a willful act on Matt's behalf to remove the hours she went missing from the cameras. Hours, the prosecution argued, he'd spent murdering his wife and disposing of her body. Lisa Jones said Nikki had likely been drugged before she died. She was found face down in the dirt, naked. The soles of her feet were clean, suggesting that she'd been moved to that location. What I'm going to tell you is he murdered her in that house, Lisa said. She noted he could have sat on her and she would have been unable to break free. A 98 pound woman against a 250 pound man. It would explain the absence of blunt force trauma, her signs of strangulation, her nakedness, the drugs in her system. He silenced Nikita with the weight of his body and in a way, the weight of his ego. Matt's defense rested on Nikki's character. They portrayed an unstable and crazy woman. The testimony of Amanda and Rebecca corroborated their father's innocence. This was not an open and shut case.

[Amanda]

They finished closing arguments, and we asked his lawyer, like, what happens next? He said, okay, well, the jury's gonna deliberate. It might take a while. Go back to the hotel, shower, eat. I'll call you if anything comes back. It might not be today. Like, it might not be until next week. Even like this. Sometimes juries can deliberate for weeks. I'll call you if anything happens. So we went back to the hotel. I'm sitting in bed and I'm watching the news. And the news says the jury came back. He was found guilty. After three. The jury deliberated for three hours.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

So you found out from the.

[Amanda]

I found out through the news.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

On February 5, 2016, the jury found Matt Liley guilty of malice murder and felony murder. He was also convicted of unlawful eavesdropping and surveillance. At the sentencing, victim impact statements were given, and the judge came forward. He sentenced Matt to life in prison without the possibility of parole for malice murder. Then on top of that, three five year terms for each count of unlawful eavesdropping and surveillance, Nikki's family cheered.

[Rebecca]

I remember seeing them cheering, and I remember sitting in the courthouse and I was, like, gutted. And then it created even more of this dynamic that he had created of my hatred for them. And I remember just, like, seething as I was sitting there. Like, how could they be so excited about this?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Matt's fate was clear. But Amanda, Rebecca, and Alex, that part was far from. Amanda. Like her sister, Rebecca struggled with the verdict. A part of her still believed her dad was innocent until she saw herself on the stand. When Nikki's case was covered on national.

[Amanda]

Tv, pretty much what like, really flipped a switch for me was when kind of 2020 and Dateline and all of those started happening. I think it was the 2020 episode, but I was watching it and they were playing, like, the recordings of the jail phone calls with my dad and me on the stand. And, like, seeing how robotic I was and hearing my dad telling me to say this on the jail call, and then me saying it, saying it pretty much word for word on the stand. During that time, I fully believed those were my words. Like, when I was testifying, I 100% believed that's the truth. This is coming from my brain. I came up with all of this. But then seeing, like, the recording of it after, I was like, that's not me, though. Like, that's my voice. But those aren't my words. Like, it felt like I started coming out of this fog.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Doubt crept in. Amanda still struggled to face the whole truth. For a while.

[Amanda]

It started out as, oh, maybe he's not 100% innocent. Like, maybe something happened. There was an accident, and it got blown out of proportion. Like, that's kind of where it started, was, he knows something. He's not 100% innocent.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

As soon as she started feeling this way, she told her grandfather, her guardian.

[Amanda]

At the time, hey, I'm feeling this way. Is there any information you have? And as soon as I did that, that night, there was a phone call with my dad. Papa told him, like, hey, Amanda is having doubts. And it was like, nope, I'm disowned now. I am now an enemy. Yeah.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

And then when you said, hey, I'm not really sure, it feels like there's more to the story. It was like, that's it. You're out.

[Jonathan Van Ness]

Mm.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

And is that maybe. Is that the point at which you realized that you believed he did it? Was that what broke the spell?

[Amanda]

It took a while. Like, I was still in that phase of, okay, he's not innocent. Like, I don't know what happened. And it was one of those things of, like, wanting to find the information. It was, like, middle of my junior year, that was a really rough year because I wound up kind of in and out of the hospital in the inpatient ward for suicide attempts and kind of this feeling of like, everything I've known is a lie. I trashed my Dead mom on YouTube and to the news. I've trashed my mom to the world. I've made her out to be crazy. I've alienated myself from my mom's side of the family. Now my dad, who I sacrificed my high school years for playing lawyer, hates me. I have no one. Eventually, I just had to get out of the house, and I wasn't sure how. I started talking to the counselor at school. I was like, hey, I can't live at home anymore. My husband now boyfriend at the time, we went to high school together, and. And I pretty much moved in with him. He and his family were a godsend. I was able to kind of have a safe place to kind of process through everything. I was feeling of, okay, he's not. He's definitely not innocent, but how much did he know something? Did he actually do it? There's been so many different thoughts that go through my head of what did happen, what could have happened, and. And it's just one of those things that also sucks because unfortunately, the only person who truly knows what happened will never say what actually happened. I don't even think there would even be a deathbed confession or anything. I think he'll go to the grave that he's innocent.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Matt never spoke to his daughter again, Never reached out. That was it. Amanda was left to unravel her own complex feelings about her dad, the man who killed her mother. She says she still can't see a red Ford Expedition and not have this irrational fear that it's him following her. Not long after Amanda left, Rebecca came to a similar realization.

[Rebecca]

Between the phone calls and video calls and everything, he also had an email. And he would email us. Yeah, he had like a little like iPad type thing and he would email me. I don't remember what he did, but I remember I composed an email that was basically, you can't treat me the way that you've been treating me. How you've treated me is not a father. You have not treated me and loved me as a daughter. And I remember I closed it and I said I wanted a father and not a chess player. And I never heard from my own. And when I think on that moment more, it's the typical, like, sociopath. As soon as they no longer have that hold over someone, you're done. You're gone. You're useless to me. And that was very much what it felt like. It felt like I stood up to him and I was done. You were never my daughter. I never loved you. You're done.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Meanwhile, the money Nikki had wanted to provide for her family in case of her death finally got paid out to her children, split between the three of them.

[Rebecca]

We didn't settle the life insurance for.

[Amy]

Years after he was convicted.

[Rebecca]

Like, it took a while.

[Amanda]

I think it was 2020. Yeah, it was a while. Finally, kind of, it was.

[Rebecca]

That's when I bought my house. They paid it out and I used.

[Amanda]

It to buy my house.

[Jonathan Van Ness]

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[Jonathan Hirsch]

So here's the idea.

[Jonathan Van Ness]

You get it now, you call it.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

An early present for next year.

[Amanda]

What do you have to lose?

[Jonathan Van Ness]

Give it a [e-mail] switch.

[Amy]

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[Jonathan Hirsch]

It makes sense to me now why Amy didn't see the point in making a podcast about her sister's case. The family had been through so much and to her mind, the defense had twisted a domestic abuse situation into a he said, she said dog fight and the media ate it up. You're hearing domestic violence, Sarah.

[Amy]

Well, she is completely unstable. I think she's completely crazy.

[Rebecca]

And I think that the 500,000.

[Jonathan Van Ness]

I think she's completely dead.

[Alex]

Yeah, completely dead.

[Amanda]

But before, before she died and I.

[Rebecca]

Think that, I think there's been a.

[Amanda]

Whole slew of incidents where she's tried.

[Rebecca]

To stage some kind of domestic violence.

[Amanda]

On herself and that.

[Rebecca]

And he's taping all this to protect himself. I mean, why would you have 500,000 plus.

[Jonathan Van Ness]

Because you're a control freak.

[John Richter]

Because you're trying to coercively control your life, obviously.

[Amanda]

But he's the one that's usually calm.

[Rebecca]

I mean, you played one where he isn't.

[Amanda]

But often he's the calm one and she's the one that's out of control.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

These so called trial experts got it terribly wrong. But there's something else I now better understand. Having reviewed over 25,000 files from this case, what we see with Matt and Nikki is a frightening cautionary tale. To meet someone, to fall in love, to have a relationship, it's about a connection. Yes, but anyone who's been in a serious relationship will tell you it's also about sacrifice. Meeting in the middle for the sake of that love. But where's the line? When does sacrifice become abuse? It's not always easy to see. And with Nikki, she was already in too deep when she started to fight back. There's this three hour recording I came across in reporting the story that chills me to the bone. I don't think I'll ever be the same after hearing it because it reveals both Matt's cruelty towards Nikki, his obsession with owning every part of her narrative, and her continually sacrificing herself in service of their relationship. The recording is called Nikki Life Confessions and in it Matt interviews Nikki about her personal sexual history. Everything she's ever done with another man is laid out in this conversation.

[Alex]

Tell me where you want me to.

[John Richter]

Store, but I don't know about your childhood and high school and everything else that you feel. I have to know.

[Alex]

High school was a lot of feeling, always feeling, never adequate, never having any confidence in myself. Being small, being little.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

She talks about her sexual partners in college and in her 20s.

[Alex]

Yes, he's seen me Naked? Yes, we did some heavy duty partying and some stupid.

[Jonathan Van Ness]

Right.

[Alex]

I can tell you I never slept with him and never wanted to.

[John Richter]

Okay, you're being specific saying you never slept with him. What? What did you do?

[Alex]

I didn't do anything other than strip poker, he's singing naked, and a bunch of drug partying.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

And throughout, Matt demands she be explicit, exhaustive.

[John Richter]

Who were you flirting with and who'd you go see?

[Alex]

The only person I ever met was. And you know about that?

[John Richter]

You haven't told me everything.

[Alex]

I haven't told you everything. Okay, I've met, I flirted with, we. We talked on the phone a couple times. When I went out to California, I called him, told him I was coming. We hooked up for dinner.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Matt saw Nikki as his property. He had a right to know every sordid detail. And Nikki is fighting throughout to be understood, to be loved by Matt.

[Alex]

And I have done the lion's share of things wrong in this relationship. I am asking for some very simple things. And the only thing I've asked for in this entire conversation is by innuendo. I've asked for the opportunity to prove that I can be honest. On top of that, I've asked for just simple comfort and the leeway and the latitude to be who I am and be emotional just because I'm emotional.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Then there's the contract. Nikki wrote a contract and gave it to her husband. The contract gave him complete rights to her breast implants. To Matt, it was a sign of her undying love.

[John Richter]

So she wrote a contract voluntarily. She handed me this. Hand me this. Just for surgery. I, Dominique C. Liley, do hereby agree to allow my loving, devoted husband, Matt J. Liley, to retain full and sole ownership of the breast and fans that I am receiving on April 15, 2008. He has earned the right to have full ownership of the implants and at his discretion, request that they be removed, which I would never do. And I told her that including, but not limited to any marital separations, belief of infidelity, or any other reason he may deem.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

John Richter remembered seeing this contract too.

[John Richter]

It's a piece of paper and it says these implants belong to my husband Matt, and he has complete control. If at some point he doesn't like. If someone else is getting joy for my breast implants, he can have them removed. And she signed it.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

The end of the three page contract read by way of this letter. Contract. I am giving full control and ownership of the memory gel implants that I am receiving to my adoring Husband to have and to do with as he pleases, including demand their removal should he see fit, for any reason he decides is appropriate and at any time. End quote.

[John Richter]

I love you, Matt. You are my one and only. And no man will ever stand in your place. If you die tomorrow, there will simply be a hole there forever. And I would never want to fill it with anyone. It would be futile effort to try.

[Jonathan Van Ness]

To.

[John Richter]

To try. Because no one else would ever be able to be who you are and you feel the way you are. I love you. Always. Always and forever. Nickel.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

The contract is in force and binding as of April 15, 2008.

[John Richter]

Can you imagine? And if he's not happy with. If someone gives her. If someone is caught looking at her or something, he's gonna have him removed. And she signed his. Like he's in control, like. But that's the level of, you know, craziness.

[Alex]

I know that I've made my fair share of mistakes, and I've done things wrong and I've done mean things and I've done things I shouldn't have done. Since I left Athens, since I moved to Oklahoma, the only thing I have done is reach out and try to do the best I can do and reach out and help who I could help. That's all I have done. But I don't deserve this.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

You know, they say there are two ways in which we live and die. The physical death, of course. And we all know that Nikki is no longer with us. But there is another way in which we do or don't survive. It's in the memory of others. Was something Amanda said to me. They said, the door is open. So, hello.

[Alex]

How are you?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Hey, what's up?

[Amanda]

Hi.

[Alex]

Nice to see you.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

On November 8, just a few weeks before wrapping this series, we met all three girls in Richmond, Virginia. Amanda and Alex had driven up from Georgia the day before. It had been five years since the three of them had been together.

[Rebecca]

Well, I called her short. The first thing I did was I said, I forgot how short you are.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

I asked them about last night.

[Rebecca]

We also bought a bottle of wine, and we were sitting on these couches and talking and everything. And it was a lot of, I remember this, and, oh, do you remember this happened? And, oh, my God, you did this.

[Amanda]

And then we jumped to, like, oh, you have this health condition. Or like, we were all over the place.

[Rebecca]

It was very much when you see someone after a long time, and then you're always worried about the building up, and you're like, oh, what are we gonna talk about, like, it's gonna be awkward. Her wedding was the last time I've seen them. And so it did feel a lot like just jumping in. Like, we just like jumped in and hung out and talked.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

They'd stayed up all night. When we walked in, they were all squished up on a two seater couch together where they had fallen asleep. It's not like their Airbnb didn't have bedrooms. They just couldn't bear to be apart. They are all in therapy now. Alex has kids of her own. They're rebuilding their relationship, but they are nowhere near as close as they'd like to be. Their lives were each blown apart by what happened to their mother. Blown apart in different directions. They're still tussling with some impossible issues. Like, is it okay to have positive memories of Matt?

[Rebecca]

Something that I wrestle with when I do remember things are, can I still remember this good memory of my father with the shadow that he killed my mother? Like, am I allowed to enjoy this memory still?

[Amanda]

There was a night.

[Amy]

Yes.

[Amanda]

Yeah, it was a night. Let me answer that for you.

[Amy]

Yes.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Big sister's gonna drop in for that one. Yes, you can.

[Amanda]

We. So me and my husband went over to Alex's house. There was a lot of alcohol consumed for me. I struggle with those feelings all the time. Of, like, he did it. He did this horrible thing. But he's still my dad and I still have good memories of him. And I. There is some part of me that loves him in some way, whether that's the idea of him or.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

And then there's Alex, who, like, her version of it is like, he did this horrible thing. He did absolutely horrible things to her and horrible things to her mom, and she never loved him.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

I don't think for Alex. There was a kind of clarity from the start. Amanda recognizes that now.

[Amanda]

So, like, she doesn't want to trash talk my dad to me, and I don't want to come across as defending my dad to her. And so, like, it felt like there was always kind of that tension of we could never really talk about it with each other. It did take a while, but that night kind of. Yeah, that night, two bottles of wine kind of helped break through that wall.

[Rebecca]

But I was so intoxicated that I.

[Amy]

Spilled wine all over my rug, my wall.

[Amanda]

Then you poured baking soda all over it.

[Amy]

I thought that would clean the rug.

[Rebecca]

Wine stains in my drunken state. But we were like, in like, crying. Breakthrough.

[Amanda]

So.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

And here they were, Amanda, Alex and Rebecca together, keeping the memory of their mother alive, trying to.

[Rebecca]

I Hope what comes out of this is closer relationships between the three of us. I just hope that like we don't go through this and then just settle back into. It's not that we haven't kept in contact, it's just, you know, life has lifed. And I hope that in a way we find ways because to her point, there's so many good memories. I can't. I can't even find them in the backest part of my brain and I know that they've got to be there. Like there's times that Amanda will be like, do you, do you remember when this. And it'll be a good memory. And I don't, like, I can't, I can't grab it. I don't remember it. I have no idea what she's talking about. And it makes me really sad. And I know that they live there.

[Amy]

And I'm hoping there's ways that we.

[Rebecca]

Can grab them back and find them.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

There's still a lot to be rebuilt between these three women. They know it. It will take years. There are so many difficult conversations, yet to have so many memories to sift through. But I had a strange feeling as we sat there. Something I can't say I've felt before or since. And Alex told me she felt it too. That we weren't alone. That in some way that I can't quite explain, Nikki was there with her girls who were together, remembering their mother and safe perhaps for the first time. Thank you so much for listening to watching you. Not sure what to listen to next. Check out My Fugitive Dad, a podcast I hosted for the binge about the shocking true story behind Ohio's most infamous bank robbery. It's a story with a surprising twist inspired by his favorite movie, the Thomas Crown Affair. 19 year old vault teller Ted Conrad stole over a million dollars and was never apprehended. Then over a century later, a man with a completely different name and life story confessed to the crime shortly before he passed together with his daughter, Ashley Randall, we try to make sense of it all. How her dad got away with it and why he chose to commit the crime in the first place. Here's a sneak peek. Hey, Ashley.

[Amanda]

Hi, Jonathan.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Tell me about your dad.

[Amanda]

Well, my dad's name is Tom. He's one of the most charming men you'll ever meet. He's a car salesman, a scratch golfer.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

You wanted Tom on your team cause he's a ringer. He was unreal.

[Amanda]

The love of my mom's life and my best friend.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

But Ashley's dad had a massive secret.

[Amanda]

And he said, if I tell you, you have to promise you will not look into it. I don't want you telling anybody.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

A secret he kept for more than half a century, not just from his family.

[Amanda]

And she looked at me like I'd hit her in the face with a brick.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

But from the world.

[Rebecca]

Ted Conrad walked out of the bank he worked at. He disappeared with a paper bag containing $215,000.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

He'd evaded authorities for 52 years.

[Amanda]

So where is Teddy Conrad today? Who knows?

[John Richter]

The Conrad trust is cold. As marshals look to generate some kind.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Of heat, a father and son duo made catching him their life's mission. Some people portrayed Conrad as a Robin.

[John Richter]

Hood, and my dad called him nothing but a thief.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

This is the story about trying to make sense of a wonderful life based on a terrible lie.

[Amanda]

My dad wasn't Tom Randall. I mean, he was Ted Conrad.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

He was a wanted fugitive hiding in plain sight. I'm Jonathan Hirsch. Join me and Ashley together as we tell the real story of her dad, Ohio's most infamous fugitive. For the first time, we'll not only reveal how he did it, but why. From Neon Hum Media and Sony Music Entertainment, this is Smokescreen. My Fugitive dad. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts to binge all episodes now or listen weekly wherever you get your podcasts. Want the rest of the story? Search for My Fugitive dad wherever you get your podcasts to listen now. Subscribe to the binge to get access to all episodes ad free today. Unlock all episodes of Watching youg Ad Free right Now by subscribing to the Binge Podcast channel. Not only will you immediately unlock all episodes of this show, but you will get binge access to an entire network of other great true crime and investigative podcasts all ad free. Plus, on the first of every month, subscribers get a binge drop of a brand new series that's all episodes all at once. Search for the binge on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe at the top of the page, not on apple. Head to getthebinge.com to get access wherever you listen. Watching you is an original production of Sony Music Entertainment. It's hosted and reported by me, Jonathan Hirsch. Jason Hoke of Waveland Media is our lead producer and co reported the series with me. Katherine St. Louis is our story editor from Sony Music Entertainment. The executive producers are Catherine St. Louis and Jonathan Hirsch. Sound design and mixing by Scott Somerville. We use music from Epidemic Sound and apm. Our fact checker is Naomi Boss. Our production managers are Tamika Balance Kolasny and Sami Allison. Our lawyer is Meenakshi Krishnan. Special thanks to Steve Ackerman, Emily Rosik, Jamie Myers and the whole team at Sony Podcasts. If you're enjoying the podcast, please rate and leave us a review. Thank you so much for listening.

[Alex]

Sa.