Interviewee/Participant (3:43)

ago, September of 2001, that Katie, Michael, and Clara actually went to a Renaissance fair in Maryland, and that's where they met Kyle Holbert.

M. William Phelps (3:56)

We have all heard of Civil War reenactments where history buffs get together, dressed as soldiers and reenact battles from the 1860s. Renaissance fairs are similar gatherings where historically minded dress in outfits from the medieval and Renaissance periods and act as if they were still back in those times, just like our friends Mike, Katie, Clara, and Kyle. I was able to reach Kyle Ulbert by phone, and he talked about how exciting it was for him going to this Renaissance Fair because he had never been to one before.

Interviewee/Participant (4:38)

It was everything I never wanted. Like, this was, you know, everybody's walking around in character. I had this really cool little cat mask on, covers the top half of your face, gives you, like, the bridge, the brow ridge and stuff and the nose. Had my face painted black, had my hair dyed. I was wearing all black.

M. William Phelps (5:01)

On that September day, while roaming around the fair, Kyle met a pretty girl who was known as the Madam of the Maze. Madam's real name is Brandy Dyer, and he was struck by her immediately.

Interviewee/Participant (5:18)

I meet her, she's at a food station, and she comes up and she, if I remember correct, she just asked if she could scratch my ears. And she was really cute and petite and just scrumptious. I don't even remember. God, this is gonna sound so melodramatic. I don't remember a word we said to each other. I just remember looking at her eyes. She had these big, bright blue eyes and just going, you pretty?

M. William Phelps (5:45)

Kyle fell hard, as did Brandi, so they exchanged phone numbers. From there, Kyle meets up with three other role players of a similar age who love cosplay, which is short for costume play. They had gone to many of these fairs in the past together and loved the idea of people who thought like them. Inside a vendor tent, Kyle runs into a bespeckled Katie Inglis.

Interviewee/Participant (6:17)

I was hanging out at the weapon shop, okay? It's a place where they actually make swords, you know, custom made, you know what I'm saying? Sword. These are handmade knives, swords, metalware, stuff like that.

M. William Phelps (6:26)

And you're interested in this stuff because it's.

Interviewee/Participant (6:29)

I love the medieval period and I love, you know, saying all things fantasy. So that just was a natural extension for me.

M. William Phelps (6:35)

As Mike and Katie explained to detectives, Kyle came across as this larger than life, boisterous, jovial person. He seemed older than his years. He was warm and eccentric and the three of them hit it off.

Interviewee/Participant (6:52)

Mike and I started talking and he's the one that you say he and I kind of gravitate to each other more than anything.

M. William Phelps (6:58)

Mike was normally shy, but dressed like like a scraggly 1970s Game of Thrones reject, he found it easy to relate to Kyle. With Mike and Katie that day is another young girl. Mike introduces her to Kyle. Clara. She says, nice to meet you. Kyle is under the impression that Clara is their leader. She's dressed like a female Gandalf, wearing a large gray cloak and carrying a wooden staff.

Interviewee/Participant (7:33)

She was the quietest one of the group, just kind of seemed to be watching everything and she was friendly, but quiet. I mean that's a word to describe her is quiet. Very introverted.

M. William Phelps (7:45)

Within a few days of meeting, Kyle falls quickly into Clara's underworld game, which the others are are already wrapped up in. Kyle takes on his role in the game with gusto right away. He is deemed a protector and serves proudly as a knight for Clara, the game's queen, the Lord of Chaos. Her underworld is a complicated place, but all you need to know at this point is she's got a of lot a lot of enemies in her fantasy world. But Kyle, the newest member of her underworld force, proves to be a dutiful warrior, there to enjoy and take on the virtual challenges she sets up for him. She finds the perfect guy, the perfect person who can take the roles and demands and quests and valorization from the fantasy world into the real world. Clara has, in the fantasy world, found the solution to what she perceived to be her real world problem. In the land of fairy tales, happy endings are a must. But when the lines between fantasy and reality are blurred, the end of the story becomes anything but a happy one. My name is M. William Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist and the New York Times best selling author of dozens of true crime books from Sony Music Entertainment and M. William Phelps, llc. You are listening to Fatal Fantasy. This is episode three. One Big oopsie.

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M. William Phelps (12:53)

Loudoun county investigator Greg Locke was now certain that of one important fact. Although Mike and Katie knew Clara and hung around with her, she was nowhere near her father's house on the night Dr. Schwartz was murdered. But this other dude, Kyle Ulbert, he was. In fact, they confirmed this by that photograph of a wiry kid, Kyle, in the ATM video going back to to the kiosk to grab Mike's ATM card after Mike had forgotten it. Kyle was also the one from the group having tea and crumpets with the neighbor on that night while waiting for the tow truck driver to show up. Realizing now they were all friends, Detective Locke had questions specifically centered around Clara Schwartz.

Interviewee/Participant (13:51)

They were friends with her. They would have known she was away at school and was not at home. My red flags went up at that point had made that statement that they had gone there to see Clara when, you know, being her friend, they knew she was at college.

M. William Phelps (14:05)

Mike and Katie had told police so far that they went to the Stone House that night to visit Clara. But Locke was seeing straight through that line of bullshit.

Interviewee/Participant (14:18)

They had been there. It was back in November, I think it was November 9th, I believe that they went to visit her at JMU. What I'm saying is, is that when we were interviewing and they said that they had gone there to visit her, they should have known that she was away at school and not back home.

M. William Phelps (14:35)

It's the little white lies that strangle you, not the big ones. The truth is inherent. You do not have to remember it. And smart dialed in investigators are just waiting for those little lies to creep into the conversation. Which is exactly what Greg Lock heard in speaking to Mike and Katie with the murder weapon found inside Mike's house. And now forensic proof that both Mike and Katie's fingerprints were were found on the sword handle. Things weren't looking so good for the role playing couple.

Interviewee/Participant (15:13)

You know, I believe that one was a little less forthcoming than the other. I believe Katie was a little more forthcoming than what Michael was at the time of the interview.

M. William Phelps (15:24)

As I investigated this part of the case and got to know this couple and Kyle more directly, it became apparent that they all accepted and even enjoyed the darker aspects of role playing. Maybe not so much Clara, the author of it all, but certainly Mike, Katie and Kyle. And part of what they loved more than anything was the old pagan and Wicca side of it. Not wanting to take Kyle's word for it. To learn more about this, I spoke to Joe Laycock, whose specialty is alternative religions.

Interviewee/Participant (16:02)

Wicca is an attempt to reconstruct or revive pre Christian traditions of Europe. And I think that a lot of the appeal of this is that Christianity says, well, the supernatural is in heaven. It's not in this world. You get to encounter God after you die. And paganism is saying, no, no, no, the spirit world is all around us, right? Nature is magical.

M. William Phelps (16:27)

Kyle told me that he believed the spirit world hovered around him like a cloud wherever he went and that he could even speak to some of those spirits.

Interviewee/Participant (16:38)

I called myself Wiccan. If I use a term to describe myself religiously, it's pagan practitioners of witchcraft, Wicca. I believe in multiple gods and goddesses, but I believe that they are all gods. And goddesses are simply manifestations and aspects of the one true source, the one God, so to speak.

M. William Phelps (16:58)

When Wicca or the occult is mentioned here in this podcast, what it means to Kyle and Katie, Mike and Clara is, as he says, witchcraft, dabbling in black magic, and all things on the darker side of spirituality. But not every pagan or Wiccan dabbles in the occult. I want to be clear about that. A month before meeting this new group of friends, Kyle had turned 18 and was emancipated from being a ward of the state. He'd had a difficult upbringing and a lot of troubles during his teenage years. And if that wasn't enough, he was diagnosed with schizophrenia early in his life. For someone with this condition, freedom came with a lot more responsibility and accountability, and Kyle believed he was up to the task.

Interviewee/Participant (17:55)

My social worker basically said, he's not done with shining psychosis. He's turned 18. We want to release him, declare him an adult, because I was a ward of the state. So Commonwealth stood up to their little rigmarole. We don't want him to leave, et cetera, et cetera. And the judge said, you're gone and you're an adult. And they gave me a bus ticket and sent me on my way. How did you feel about that? I was happy. I was free. No more leashes, no more having to worry about institutions. I was free. But three words were in my head. I am free.

M. William Phelps (18:29)

Taking his medication fell on Kyle's shoulders post emancipation. And as Kyle told me, one of the first things he did after walking out of the courthouse on what he referred to as his hatching day was toss his meds in the trash for D. Benedetto and Locke. They were focused on what Kyle's role was in the car that night, or if he could give them a better understanding of Mike's involvement in the murder. Did Kyle even know that Mike had the sword? And that Mike had possibly killed someone for all they knew? At this point, Kyle was oblivious to what had happened inside Dr. Schwartz's house. Then Mike told them who had asked him to hide the sword.

Interviewee/Participant (19:20)

He later told us that he had taken it there on Kyle's request.

M. William Phelps (19:25)

So now Mike is saying that the sword used to kill Schwartz belonged to Kyle and not him. Then he tells Locke that it was Kyle who told him to stash it in his closet. And before he did that, Kyle insisted that Mike wipe Schwartz's blood off of it with alcohol. Now, the detectives had a problem. Who are they supposed to believe? Some unknown male they have yet to speak to or a role playing stoner with a bloody sword found in his closet? As Detective Locke got further into investigating the sword found in Mike's closet, Mike suddenly declared that the murder had little to do with him. It was Kyle Hulbert's sword, he claimed. Then he kicks it up a notch, claiming that Kyle, his so called buddy, had killed others. With Mike dropping a hammer on Kyle and playing games with investigators at the same time, they needed to be certain he wasn't trying to protect himself and throw Kyle under a bus. They needed proof, specifically forensic evidence tying Kyle directly to the murder. Also, where was the motive in all of this? Why had Mike or any of them murdered their friend's father? Locke decided to go with what he had in front of him, which was enough circumstantial evidence on Kyle to bring him in.

Interviewee/Participant (21:17)

Based on information obtained from Katie Inglis and Michael Foale, along with having recovered the murder weapon, an arrest warrant was issued for Kyle Holberg here.

M. William Phelps (21:28)

It was only day two of the investigation, and they were cantering along at breakneck speed. Within 48 hours, they had two people in custody, the murder weapon, and were heading out to pick up a third person of interest.

Interviewee/Participant (21:48)

We were running. I think I was there 72 hours, pretty much straight. That was that particular office there. We had a shower. So, you know, it was pretty much straight on, work around the clock, cat nap at the desk, that type of thing.

M. William Phelps (22:05)

That's how these things go, right? You know, you got to. You got to kind of hit while it's hot, right?

Interviewee/Participant (22:11)

When you have leads that are starting to come in, you really have to run with them.

M. William Phelps (22:17)

Detective Locke also wanted to talk to Clara Schwartz about her friends, but that could wait. He needed to get to Kyle first. Kyle was staying at his girlfriend Brandy's house. Brandi and her mother, Anna Dyer, saw Kyle as a displaced young guy who had nobody in his life. The state of Virginia had offered him little in the way of support. Here's Brandy's mother, Anna Dyer, who Kyle refers to as Mom. That is how close they had gotten in the weeks he'd stayed with the family.

Narrator/Host (22:53)

He was, like, lost. He needed some Guidance. He was very friendly. I took him home that night when I met him because he didn't have anywhere to go, and it was cold. I didn't want him sleeping in the woods, so I gave him my couch to sleep on.

M. William Phelps (23:10)

Kyle was up front with them about how he'd recently been a ward of the state.

Narrator/Host (23:16)

I was heartbroken for him. I felt that the state of Virginia should not have just pushed him out the door without giving him resources, without preparing him, that nobody should be just at 18, just going, oh, here you go. You're free, and no life skills given.

M. William Phelps (23:35)

That's Brandy. She worked hard to help Kyle adapt to his new life. Actually, everyone in Kyle's new family did, including Brandy's mom and sister. But it wasn't always easy seeing him

Narrator/Host (23:51)

just trying to be normal, to do normal things. We tried to get him a job, and he was just turned down numerous times for anything he went to tri for. I was always comfortable around Kyle. I know he was having his issues, and he was trying hard to deal with them.

M. William Phelps (24:12)

One particular quirk of Kyle's, they noticed, was his various ways of coping with stress or fear.

Narrator/Host (24:20)

When he gets scared, he internals in. So that would be the Disney music. He definitely would go with that Disney music and be in his own world. He just basically stayed into his part of the room.

M. William Phelps (24:34)

Kyle and Brandi are home on December 12 as armed officers surround the house, warrant in hand, preparing to bust through the front door and take Kyle into custody. They just had dinner, and we're relaxing together.

Narrator/Host (24:51)

We cuddle up on the bed and watch tv. And then that's when I determine it as all hell breaks loose in the house, and all the police are there, and they're there to arrest Kyle for the murder. And I am just shocked. And I'm being told not to move, to get on the floor, put my hands behind my back.

M. William Phelps (25:17)

Investigators have no idea if Brandi is involved. She and her mother have not even heard about the murder of Dr. Schwartz.

Narrator/Host (25:25)

I know nothing. They tell me that I need to put my hands up to come up on my knees, and you're not to move. And I said, okay, I do so. And then they pull me into my dining room, and that's when they start to question me. Do I know Clara? Do I know Katie?

Sponsor/Advertisement Voice (25:43)

Do I know?

Narrator/Host (25:43)

Do I know Mike? How do I know them?

M. William Phelps (25:45)

Brandi's mother had just gotten home.

Narrator/Host (25:47)

They said they were looking for Kyle. So they had me get on the floor, and everybody in the house get on the floor until they went for Kyle. Kyle did not hide from them. There was no struggle.

M. William Phelps (26:03)

I asked Kyle what he could recall from the moment the police showed up to arrest him.

Interviewee/Participant (26:09)

You have like a million thoughts all at once, and you categorize all of them all at once. And it's not until later that you look back at how much you were thinking. I was in. I was laying in bed with Brandy. I know we. I know we've gone. We've gone out to. We'd gone out and had sex in our little hideaway because her mom was home. I just suddenly hear, you know, police, freeze. Don't fucking move. And I look up and there's this big fucking. And it probably wasn't that big in real life, but in my brain, it's always this huge fucking cannon of a revolver pointed at my head. I remember looking at it going, wow, that's a big ass barrel.

M. William Phelps (26:53)

Kyle was escorted outside by several armed officers.

Interviewee/Participant (26:59)

They put me in the. They put me in a cop car. Mom came and saw me there and basically told me that she was not abandoning me.

M. William Phelps (27:08)

Meanwhile, back at the police station, Detective Locke is still struggling to get a handle on why this group of pagans would have had it in for Dr. Schwartz. You don't need motive to prosecute a case in court, but motive is imperative in piecing together who is responsible. Locke had a nagging suspicion that the murder is somehow tied into this game, the Underworld. Remember, there were specific wounds left on Schwartz's body, occult aspects to the crime, and the murder weapon was a sword. By then, Mike and Katie had told Locke the Underworld was a kind of medieval board game, except the storylines and language were created by the game's architect and acted out in the real world.

Interviewee/Participant (28:01)

So in this particular game, Clara was the Lord of Chaos and the queen, if you will, and she pretty much doled out orders to different people who participated in the game. Role playing is simply, you're telling a story and all the people playing are actually playing their characters. They're acting their part in the story. Whoever's running the game is the person that's writing the story and setting the adventure and setting the obstacles for everybody to beat.

M. William Phelps (28:28)

Had these three, Mike, Katie and Kyle, took it upon themselves to murder Dr. Schwartz as part of the game. Did they have some sort of beef with Clara? It seemed unfathomable, unimaginable. But then again, seasoned cops know that people will kill one another or over just about anything, so nothing can be taken off the table. What role in fact, did the game play? Can you imagine waking up one Morning. And three of your best friends are in custody for the murder of your father. And they are talking about a game you not only created, but turned them onto. Clara Schwartz must have been devastated by this alarming turn of events. Right around the same time Clara, her grandparents and sister arrive at the station house to speak with investigators. One of the first questions they ask Clara is, do you think there is any possibility your new friend Kyle, who Mike and now Katie were saying could have come, committed the murder, might have killed your father?

Interviewee/Participant (29:46)

The information that Clara provided, she didn't believe that Kyle would really do this. Close your eyes. Exhale.

M. William Phelps (30:01)

Feel your body relax and let go

Interviewee/Participant (30:03)

of whatever you're carrying today.

M. William Phelps (30:06)

While I'm letting go of the worry that it would not get my new contacts in time for this class, I

Narrator/Host (30:11)

got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh, my gosh, they're so fast.

M. William Phelps (30:14)

And breathe.

Narrator/Host (30:15)

Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry.

M. William Phelps (30:22)

Namaste.

Narrator/Host (30:23)

Visit 1-800contacts.com today to save on your first order. 1-800-contacts. Tu trio no tiene caburido in TikTok I clips the podcast Noticia serapidas y micro prendisaje dies minutos unai de ah nueva convierte el trafico en tiempo decresimiento descarga TikTok aura.

M. William Phelps (30:48)

At this stage, based on what they knew about him, Kyle Ulbert didn't seem like the type of person who could commit such a vicious crime. Jennifer Miller met Kyle when the two were teenagers. They shared a lot of the same interests and have remained close friends.

Narrator/Host (31:08)

He was a really nice guy. I mean, he didn't put on any airs about himself. It was. This is what you get.

M. William Phelps (31:14)

Jennifer was also into live action role playing.

Narrator/Host (31:19)

Kyle always wanted to be the hero. He usually played the knight or he played especially the magician. He loved playing the magician. I always say he has the knight in shining armor syndrome. Kyle's personality is, if I know something bad's going on, I want to help. How can I help? How can I protect my friends and who I consider family from whatever bad is going on?

M. William Phelps (31:51)

Was Kyle just the fall guy and Mike the more likely suspect, playing a game of his own with investigators? Or Perhaps they killed Dr. Schwartz together. While investigators prepare to speak with Kyle about his potential role in the murder, Katie suddenly sees the light and decides to cooperate fully. No more bullshit. The truth, she promises. Immediately, Katie reveals it was Kyle who walked up to the Schwartz house on his own just before Mike got the car stuck in the mud. When Kyle came back 20 minutes later, he was a completely different person, Katie said. After Mike asked, Kyle said there was no one at the house.

Interviewee/Participant (32:45)

Foreign.

M. William Phelps (32:50)

Was now placing the blame on Kyle, which made me want to understand him better. I was able to track down Kyle's sister, Natasha ulbert. She's only 10 months younger than Kyle and has fond memories of his love and protection. Regarding Kyle, Natasha says, he was my world.

Narrator/Host (33:10)

He was everything to me. I was bullied at school, I was bullied at home, and Kyle just. Kyle made everything better. He was just my best friend. And when he left, it devastated me, and I didn't know if anything would ever be okay again.

M. William Phelps (33:27)

She then recalled the day Kyle left the Yulbert household for good.

Narrator/Host (33:32)

The reason I was told he was leaving was. And this was from Kyle, he said he was leaving because he couldn't stand dad anymore, and he just couldn't put up with dad, and he just had to go. I was like, well, I want to go with you. I don't want to be here anymore either. If you're not here, I don't want to be here without you. And he said, no, you have to stay here. You can't go where I'm going. You can't go with me.

M. William Phelps (33:56)

She wondered for years where Kyle had gone. Then the truth finally came out.

Narrator/Host (34:04)

I didn't know he was in and out of foster care. I never knew he was in and out of mental institutions.

M. William Phelps (34:13)

Kyle was nine years old when he left, and Natasha discovered the reason for him being essentially taken away from the family.

Narrator/Host (34:23)

Every summer growing up, for several years, I would go and spend the summer with this couple. I remember these two summers, my dad came and picked me up early, and he was like, we have to go home. And I'm like, well, why? And he said, kyle tried to kill Chris.

M. William Phelps (34:43)

Chris is Kyle and Natasha's younger brother.

Narrator/Host (34:47)

And I'm like, what happened? Well, he tried to kill him with a butcher knife. He was chasing Chris around with Dad's freshly sharpened butcher knife around the yard. And the only thing that saved Chris was the fact that my dad had heard him yelling from his office and came out and got the knife away from Kyle.

M. William Phelps (35:05)

That was the first time. The next had the potential to be far more violent.

Narrator/Host (35:14)

And the second time, kind of the same scenario, but it was a gasoline can and a lighter. Kyle was asked why he was doing it. He said, because I wanted to see the flames jump off of him. He wanted to see what would happen.

M. William Phelps (35:37)

After Katie told investigators Kyle was the only one who'd gone into Dr. Schwarz's house. They went back to Mike and asked him about this, and Mike cracked. He told cops that he and Katie knew when they arrived at the Schwartz house that Kyle was going there to kill him. This was a breakthrough. Katie hadn't admitted that. Detective Locke asked Mike to tell them how he knew this. Mike explained. Kyle said, he's done other jobs, which we knew to be homicides. And he said he had buried one victim behind the victim's house. Is there anything else you can tell us about that night at the Schwartz residence? Locke asked. The murder, getting stuck in the mud, keeping this secret. Mike said, it's one big oopsie. I've heard murder described in a lot of ways, but never in almost three decades of reporting have I heard taking someone's life boiled down to a childish, idiotic, ignorant faux pas, like spilling a glass of milk. With that information, they go to Kyle and tell him they have no witnesses willing to testify against him. In fact, Katie had already cut a deal with investigators. After Kyle heard that, he told investigators he was ready to tell them the truth about what happened that night. Have I got a story for you about what really happened, he told them. For investigators, it sounds like there's not only a confession in the air, but also more secrets to be revealed. Next time. Unfatal fantasy. A new suspect is in jail and

Interviewee/Participant (38:00)

very angry because of the way she talked and the way she made out like she knew everything. So she's got the incentive to come up with whatever bullshit that sounds convincing to them to secure their case.

M. William Phelps (38:11)

Meanwhile, investigators find a witness who sends the case in an entirely new direction.

Interviewee/Participant (38:18)

Young man came forward that he had been a participant participant in this underworld game. And that one of the tasks that was assigned was to kill the old geezer.

M. William Phelps (38:32)

And a voice with a deadly plan is soon discovered.

Narrator/Host (38:37)

Someone should put a gun to him, tell him to write the note, then put it in the drawer of the desk and point a gun at him while he pours the vial in his milk and drinks it, watches him die, and then leaves.

M. William Phelps (39:05)

Don't want to wait for that next episode. You don't have to unlock all episodes of Fatal Fantasy ad free right now by subscribing to the binge podcast channel. Search for the binge on Apple podcasts and hit subscribe at the top of the page. Not on apple. Head to getthebinge.com to get access wherever you listen as a subscriber, you'll get binge access to new stories on the 1st of every month. Check out the Binge Channel page on apple podcasts or getthebinge.com to learn more. Fatal Fantasy is a production by Sony Music Entertainment and M. William Phelps llc, written and executive produced by me from Sony Music Entertainment. The executive producers are Jonathan Hirsch and Katherine St. Louis Lewis and our Production manager is Samantha Allison. Jeremy Adair is my senior producer and script consultant and Matt Russell my sound engineer. I use Epidemic Sound for music and sfx.

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