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- [00:00]
Podcast Host/Advertiser
Hi Binge Crew. When you're finished listening to this true crime story, go see Hunting Matthew Nichols in theaters. This film has all the elements of the true crime stories we A sprawling mystery, intrepid investigators, powerful people who know more than they let on. Two decades after her brother mysteriously disappeared on Vancouver Island, a documentary filmmaker sets out to solve his missing person's case. But when a disturbing piece of evidence is revealed, it's she comes to believe her brother might still be alive. The film is in select theaters now, but you can immerse yourself in the story by going to huntingmatthewnickolls.com right now. That's huntingmatthewnichols.com and welcome to the Hunt.
- [00:48]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
Listen to all episodes of Fatal Fantasy ad free right now by subscribing to the the Binge, Visit the Binge channel on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe at the top of the page or visit getthebinge.com to get access. Wherever you listen the Binge feed your true crime obsession. Kyle Ulbert just murdered a man and is now walking up the Schwartz driveway away from the house, approaching Mike and Katie, who are working on getting the car out of the mud. After realizing they need a tow truck, Kyle says he's going to a neighbor's house to use the phone. He takes off his trench coat and places it, along with the bloody sword in the backseat of the vehicle. Later, Katie said she saw blood on both and decided to place them in the trunk of the car in case anyone came by again, an indication that she knew what Kyle had done. I wondered how Kyle handled that moment of knocking on the neighbor's door. After all, just moments before, he had slashed a man to death over 30 times in the most violent way imaginable. I wondered how he switched gears so fast from vicious killer to a kid in need of help.
- [02:38]
Kyle Ulbert
I remember they gave me cht.
- [02:40]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
They gave you what?
- [02:41]
Kyle Ulbert
Sage tea. It was actually. It was good. It was a good quality stuff, too. It wasn't that cheap crap you get at a supermarket. This is good tea. I remember thinking, like, while sitting there drinking, because it was kind of rainy out and, you know, misty and miserable, apparently. I was very pleasant, cordial, and very polite. I was a perfect gentleman, according to them. You never have known that I just killed a man.
- [03:05]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
You're not thinking, holy shit, I left forensic evidence over there. I left hairs. I left DNA. Not thinking any of that.
- [03:13]
Kyle Ulbert
My brain's not moving past this is very good tea.
- [03:21]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
This conversation seems completely surreal to me, but let's face It Kyle wasn't living in reality back then. Dr. Schwartz was murdered in early December 2001. Within days, police had arrested Mike Foale, Katie Inglis, and then Kyle Ulbert, and became aware of Clara Schwartz's involvement a few days after that. But it took until February 2002, a full three months later, before Loudoun county issued a warrant for Clara's arrest in connection with the murder of her father.
- [04:03]
Detective Greg Locke
Mainly due to the fact that we had to have the computer forensic analysis obtain the IM messages to the different individuals, research the journal entries, tie those together to Kyle Hulbert, and we wanted to make sure that we had all the I's dotted and t's crossed.
- [04:23]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
By then, they had a great deal of evidence against Clara and Kyle, along with statements from accomplices Mike and Katie. Cops knew the couple had driven Kyle back to the murder location, but were not yet sure that they knew he planned to take a life. Detectives were convinced of one thing, however, that Clara and Kyle had conceived and carried out this malicious crime together. When Greg Locke asked Clara during one interview about the alleged sexual abuse by her father, she said he had once slapped her on the butt. Locke was stunned. He asked again if there was any sexual abuse whatsoever. No, Clara admitted without hesitating. Was Clara now saying that she'd lied to Kyle to get him to murder her father? Locke certainly thought so. Kyle had told her about the abuse in his past, so she might have thought that her accusations against her father would send him into a blind rage.
- [05:46]
Detective Greg Locke
Going to trial, the biggest question mark probably would have been Clara, because more of her evidence was circumstantial and more of the evidence, specifically Kyle, was direct. We had the sword, we had the DNA evidence, we had the testimony from Michael and Katie. So definitely, Clara was the more challenging.
- [06:10]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
The prosecution was aware that the greatest challenge lay in proving Clara had planned to kill her father, first through her underworld game and then by coercing Kyle to act it out. In real life, she had used the same MO On Patrick House, her former boyfriend, but he saw through it and disengaged.
- [06:33]
Detective Greg Locke
With that said, I was not overly concerned that there would not be a conviction in this case. You certainly can never guess what a jury will do. But with that, we believed that we had a good case, a solid case, and that Clara would be convicted.
- [06:51]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
One of the biggest questions in play as the case headed into the courtroom was how much control did Clara have over Kyle Hubert? Would he continue to protect her, even though it looked like he had become the state's major witness against her? Or would he realize Clara had manipulated him all along just to collect an inheritance? My name is M. William Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist and the New York Times best selling author of dozens of true crime books from Sony Music Entertainment and M. William Phelps, llc. You are listening to Fatal Fantasy Episode six Monster.
- [08:09]
Podcast Host/Advertiser
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- [09:29]
E
This episode is brought to you by Fandango. People say fans are too distracted these days, but the truth is, when a great movie hits the screen, you show up. You stay invested part of the story. And without fans like you, there'd be no cinema magic, no shared moments. So head to fandango.com to get tickets, stream or rent or buy top movies and Series Fandango loves fans.
- [09:59]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
The evidence against Kyle Uber, Mike Foale and Katie Inglis was by far the strongest. So the first case headed to trial was Clara Schwartz. Loudoun county prosecutors were determined to get a conviction, thus paving the way to get the others more smoothly. Courtroom proceedings began less than a year after the murder of Dr. Schwartz. As expected, Clara's defense plan to shirk the blame and put it on Kyle and his errant ways. They argued that Kyle took it upon himself to kill Schwartz because he could not differentiate between the real world and this fantasy Clara had created. The entire room waited for Kyle's appearance. What would the actual killer have to say? Would he cast blame on Clara or protect her? What did it feel like when you walked into the courtroom to testify against the person who arguably manipulated you?
- [11:20]
Kyle Ulbert
I was conflicted. I wanted to say something, but my. The attorney told me that if I said anything other than pleading the Fifth, it would open up all kinds of things that, you know, basically, he painted a doomsday scenario for me. And, you know, it's like, either you do this or, you know, you're fucked.
- [11:40]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
How much more fucked could you be?
- [11:42]
Kyle Ulbert
I had, you know, at the time, thought that, you know, we were going to go with some sort of insanity defense because of my mental health, and that would get taken away from me, any kind of ability to get help.
- [11:55]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
And did the prosecution know you were gonna do that?
- [11:58]
Kyle Ulbert
He didn't seem surprised at all.
- [12:09]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
Kyle did not end up testifying against Clara. He pleaded the Fifth and walked out. Detective Locke explains what happened next.
- [12:19]
Detective Greg Locke
Clara attempted to plead ignorance in the regard that she didn't believe that Kyle would really do this. But based on information provided by Katie Inglis and circumstantial evidence, along with the information from Patrick House, it became apparent that she not only knew Kyle Holbert was going to do this, but she was the precipitating factor.
- [12:47]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
The prosecution focused on Clara's manipulation of Kyle and how she had quickly established several ways she could get him to act out her sick, twisted fantasies and deadly desires. Journalist Heather Greenfield covered the trial for the Associated Press. Do you think she recognized the mental illness that he suffered from? And maybe she thought she could manipulate that situation.
- [13:14]
Reporter Heather Greenfield
Various points in the trial that she recognized he had a mental illness and thought, oh, even better than my boyfriend doing this, because Kyle could get off on a mental health claim because she thought, well, if he gets caught, he could get away with her. Or at least that was what was presented at the trial.
- [13:33]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
Clara's court appearances were marked by her cool, detached manner, which did not do her any favors with the jury.
- [13:41]
Detective Greg Locke
I was on the witness stand for a day and a half. Clara was very emotionless and showed very little facially during the course of the trial.
- [13:51]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
As expected, Clara's lawyers went after Kyle. What did her defense use in order to show that she played no part in this?
- [14:01]
Kyle Ulbert
What.
- [14:01]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
What. What defense did they put on?
- [14:05]
Reporter Heather Greenfield
Oh, they tried to put it more on Kyle and say that she was just playing a game, and he misunderstood and took this as real life, and she was not really asking them to kill her father that he must have just misunderstood.
- [14:25]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
But prosecutors weren't having it.
- [14:28]
Reporter Heather Greenfield
They really put that without this. We would have had a young man that gravitated towards vampires and underworld, but he wouldn't have had a reason to do this. He wouldn't have had a reason to go to this man's house if it weren't for her.
- [14:50]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
Clara's lawyers also brought up her accusations against her father, Something not appreciated by Dr. Schwartz's family. His other children and his brother were in the courtroom. One especially painful moment was when the absolute idiotic notion that he was trying to murder his own daughter came up. Something they and most everyone else found specifically galling and ridiculous.
- [15:21]
Reporter Heather Greenfield
You really don't know where that came from, I think. Even her own friends questioned her tales of abuse. They said they had never seen bruising, they had never seen any other kinds of abuse. And neither had her siblings or other relatives.
- [15:40]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
Clara told various stories of physical and sexual abuse to different people. But one of the most shocking aspects of the trial was Was the online facet of Clara's inventing a game with ties to the occult that would virtually imagine her own father's death. The press ate it up. Some reporters wrote that fantasy gaming was a bad influence on America's young people. At this point, A few homicides in other states had had connections to gaming. The Leesburg community was shocked by this aspect of the murder and partly blamed gaming itself for Dr. Schwartz's death. Others in Leesburg felt gaming itself wasn't the problem. It's only dangerous when used by a master manipulator.
- [16:31]
Reporter Heather Greenfield
I think that was part of why it got so much attention. For me, though, as a reporter, I'm always skeptical of a simple solution. More recently, it's been violent video games, these live role playing games, now social media. What's behind all of these, though, at the end of the day, is people and it's how you use these tools.
- [16:57]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
Clara had been close to her mother, whose death devastated her. But she had little in common with her father. He was a no nonsense disciplinarian who expected her to excel in school. He didn't seem like a comfort to her at such a challenging moment. Clara was lonely and grieving for the mother who had understood her look. Her death was no excuse for plotting to kill her father. But once Clara was alone in that farmhouse with her father and no buffer, Something changed in her. She became set on a much darker path.
- [17:41]
Reporter Heather Greenfield
Joan had lung cancer and she had died five years before the murder. So at least according to testimony, from her siblings. Clara was the one who had found her mom when she died.
- [17:58]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
One revelation that came out in court Was that after Clara discovered her mother's body that morning, she packed her lunch and book bag and went to school as if it were any other day. And then she called her father to let him know Joan was dead. She might have been in shock, but her behavior seemed awfully cold and detached. Over the next few years, Clara grew to resent her father to the point of obsession. So much so, she spent hours with her friends, Imagining the death of the old guy in her fantasy game. Still, why the hell did Clara's plot become a reality? Forensic psychologist Dr. Katherine Ramslin told me there can be a cocktail of psychological reasons behind how Clara was reached a tipping point and decided to plan her own father's murder. And yet, within it all, her motivations were as old as time itself.
- [19:06]
Dr. Katherine Ramslin
I think she wanted freedom. And she also knew that he was worth a lot of money. He had assets that she would get one third of in her mind. And for some reason, she was driven by financial gain and also to be able to get out from under this, the observation of a person who she thought wasn't worthy of trying to help her direct her life. So this is about childhood alienation from a parent that she just doesn't get along with.
- [19:37]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
Clara had often complained that her father had put undue pressures on every aspect of her life, including her future. But her sister and brother disagreed that their father was overly strict and argued that it was Clara who acted like a spoiled child. Her siblings thought she was being unreasonable. Greg locke had a difficult time grasping, as most of us do, how murder became an option.
- [20:06]
Detective Greg Locke
It is very hard for me to understand what could be going through a 20 year old's mind that they felt that their life was so bad or so impacted by another individual, Especially a mother or father, that they would have them killed.
- [20:23]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
Mental health issues do not excuse anyone from knowing the difference between right and wrong. But clara's state of mind Affected even detective Locke's observation of the family dysfunction.
- [20:37]
Detective Greg Locke
I believe that, like any death of a mother or father when you're at a young age, she probably did have some depression after her mom's death. Specifically, one of the things that was brought up and that she mentioned to me Was that her dad had wanted to seek counseling, but settled on buying her a horse.
- [20:59]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
Hmm. So she didn't want to do counseling?
- [21:02]
Detective Greg Locke
I don't believe. So she turned to her underworld.
- [21:08]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
As her case moved forward. Clara wasn't doing herself any Favors by coming across inside the courtroom as a stoic, spoiled child. Unwilling to take any responsibility, she chose not to testify. After closing arguments, the jury took all of four hours and unanimously found her guilty. When it came time for sentencing, the judge was a bit lenient, in my view.
- [21:39]
Reporter Heather Greenfield
I covered the sentencing part. Now, she had some foreshadowing of what may happen because the jury had recommended 48 years in prison, and that is indeed what the judge decided. It likely wasn't unexpected, but when she heard it, she simply turned and left. She didn't look at her relatives. She showed no reaction. She just left the courthouse.
- [22:04]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
The first dragon met the hand of justice and was now confined to her dungeon. But three more were still waiting in the wings. After taking the fifth at Clara's trial, Kyle hulbert was still debating his next steps. Should he plead guilty at his trial or take an insanity plea? Most people seem to think well with all of those voices talking to him. Of course, the guy was insane. By now, Kyle was starting to realize that he had been manipulated with all along by clara, Even though it had been so difficult for him to see it. Here's Dr. Ramslin.
- [23:05]
Dr. Katherine Ramslin
Once again, Superiority is what makes him highly vulnerable because he doesn't realize that a better manipulator is standing right next to him. She's honed her skills on other people already by this time, where she's tried to get them to do things. So this guy coming at her is chaos, and she can just draw him in and get him to do what she wants. So Kyle, who has this code of honor, is an easy mark because she can make it seem as if she's in desperate need. She's a damsel in distress.
- [23:47]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
Manipulation is one thing, But Kyle also knows the voices he talks to are not fully understood by the world around him.
- [23:56]
Dr. Katherine Ramslin
They popped up in stressful times and seemed to be his guides or his gods, the voices that directed him. At times, he would say they controlled him, but clearly they didn't because they also warned him and he would ignore them. You know, they were a convenience. They comforted him and made him feel like he wasn't alone.
- [24:17]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
These voices, for some reason, were the only point of dissent when kyle walked to the house that night, Imploring him to go no further. Why was this the one time he ignored them?
- [24:32]
Dr. Katherine Ramslin
I think when Kyle breaks from them, it's showing that they aren't really in control and maybe never have been, that they might just be excuses that he's used because he's now determined to do something that his Gut, essentially, is telling him, don't do. But he has to. He's invested now. He's got this whole identity that he's shown her that he will come through for her. He has to save her. And it doesn't matter what his gut or his psyche is telling him.
- [25:05]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
Kyle then does something nobody expects. He pleads out his case. One would think he had the perfect opportunity to put on an insanity defense, as I mentioned earlier, but he decides against it.
- [25:24]
Dr. Katherine Ramslin
Said it is a legal term. Psychosis is a medical term.
- [25:28]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
Explain that for me.
- [25:30]
Dr. Katherine Ramslin
You can be psychotic where you are not in touch with reality and then you kill someone, but you understand it's wrong. So you try to clean it up. You try to have a fake alibi. You tried to get away. That means you knew that what you did was wrong and there are legal consequences so you can be found sane, but also psychotic.
- [25:54]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
So what would be a good insanity defense?
- [25:57]
Dr. Katherine Ramslin
If he had been at Robert Schwartz's home and he saw Schwartz pick up a kitchen knife and he just, oh my God, he's gonna kill me. And he, you know, in self defense. So that's his delusion and he thinks it's genuine self defense and he's not thinking about the consequences. Or if he decides that Schwartz is really a werewolf and that he's going to shift. If I don't kill him now, he's gonna shift into his wolf form and overpower me. So I have to do something. Those are the kinds of things. For example, we had one where, and this is called the deific decree, he understood that what he did was wrong when he killed his ex wife and two daughters and cut out their hearts and put them in his pocket. And he said it was wrong, but it was God telling him to do it. But then he knew that he had to also pluck out his eye because the Bible said, yeah, and he did. He plucked out his eye and ate it. That's pretty psychotic. He went to the police station and gave them the hearts.
- [27:11]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
We've seen cases of delusional psychotics claiming that the voices in their head, God, for example, were telling them to kill. But in Kyle's case, the voices were actually begging him not to, which would not have helped an insanity plea. Also, Kyle told me he thought he would get a lesser sentence if he owned up, took responsibility, and pled guilty. But that was not to be.
- [27:42]
Kyle Ulbert
He said, what looks good for us really, is that the judges basically told her, you know, that this is all her fault, that this would not have happened if it were not for her. So he was thinking that the 48 years was the benchmark. You know, if he's acknowledging that she's the cause of all this, then you, you shouldn't be getting more than that. But I mean, not how that turned out. And the fact that she told one of her cellmates that she was going to shift all the blame on to me because I'm of a feeble mind, that's pretty damning in and of itself.
- [28:13]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
Kyle was given a life sentence, a longer one than Clara. Usually the person who planned the murder gets the longer sentence. Judge Thomas Horn made it clear to Kyle why he was given a stiffer penalty than Clara.
- [28:34]
Kyle Ulbert
The judge said it himself when he sentenced me. He admitted that Clara did all this, but he said that he couldn't think of any punishment that would have a deterrent effect on a man who lives in a fantasy world. Those were his words. That's why he went above and beyond.
- [28:53]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
Here's reporter Heather Greenfield.
- [28:57]
Reporter Heather Greenfield
I think people were a little bit surprised that she didn't get more time than Kyle. But aside from that, I mean, it's, that's still a long time. And no sentence brings back Dr. Schwartz.
- [29:22]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
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- [29:25]
Reporter Heather Greenfield
Too many to say here.
- [29:27]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
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- [29:32]
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- [30:45]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
Time gives people perspective. It provides the opportunity to think about the things they've done. I had interviewed Kyle about a dozen years ago for my book, but I spoke to him recently for this podcast. He had come to terms with what he had done, expressed remorse, and yet was steadfast in his opinion that murder was never his intention. On that December 2001 night, if you recall, at the beginning of this series, Kyle said this.
- [31:22]
Kyle Ulbert
You know, I can't force anybody to believe what I have to say. I'm not even interested in trying to make anybody believe what I'm trying to say. I am stating truth. That's it.
- [31:33]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
But as we continued talking, he added something more.
- [31:38]
Kyle Ulbert
I didn't go there to kill him. It was to intimidate him, to make him think that, hey, somebody knows what you're doing, so if anything happens to her, you will be held accountable.
- [31:48]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
By I know what you're doing, Kyle is referring to Clara's lie that her father had sexually abused her. I had never really bought into Kyle's I didn't go there to kill him explanation, and neither had forensic psychologist Dr. Ramslin.
- [32:09]
Dr. Katherine Ramslin
He presents the story as, I didn't really think I was going to kill him. I didn't really need to, but he aggressed on me and then I had to protect myself. So I think parts of the narrative make very little sense in terms of the consistency of what we know about the victim. I think he hurt the guy initially from behind, and once he started, he kept going. Certainly Schwartz would try to defend himself. He grabbed the blade. That's all very likely. But once he was down, Kyle continued to thrust the blade into him.
- [32:47]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
What would you say to people listening who say he knew he was going to kill that man?
- [32:53]
Kyle Ulbert
I can't make anybody believe anything one way or the other. And honestly, that's. I'm not interested in trying to make people believe anything. I will tell you the truth. I can see, you know, looking at this, I can see how it looks. I can see how people can make come to that conclusion.
- [33:12]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
There was two people in the house that night. One of them's dead. So you can, at this point, you can kind of write this narrative any way you want, honestly.
- [33:22]
Kyle Ulbert
Ask yourself What I really stand to gain. I've been telling the Same story for 24 years.
- [33:28]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
In my line of work, I mean, killers minimize their role in the crime all the time when they give a confession.
- [33:35]
Kyle Ulbert
1. I haven't changed my story in 24 years, not by a word. If I was faking, if I was trying to paint myself in the best light possible, you would think, what benefit has it had me in the last 24 years? I am still in prison. I am still serving a life sentence. I am still dealing with all the fallout that comes with taking another man's life. At what point does it become. Why would he put in this much effort for this long on the flimsy hope that I might one day go home?
- [34:01]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
Well, that's not going to happen, right? You know that, right?
- [34:04]
Kyle Ulbert
I mean, barring any sweeping prison for reform or clemency, my clemency petition, I'm not going home.
- [34:13]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
While he recognizes what he has done, few of us can imagine what goes on in Kyle's mind. Kyle seems perpetually adrift in a world where he never knows what's real and what is not. There's one particular childhood friend he's held on to.
- [34:35]
Kyle Ulbert
Her name was Michelle Lavender. And I remember meeting her. I can see it right now. I'm talking to you. I can see her. I remember the phone call from her aunt when she died. I was 8 or 9 years old, and this tore me up. First experience with death, you know, that's a big thing for any kid. Fast forward about 2015, I think. I'm talking to one of the therapists and I'm telling her about this kind of stuff. And she comes back to me the next day and she says, hey, listen, I wanted to ask you about that person, you know, what was her name? And I gave it to her and I was like, we can't find any record of her. Michelle Lavender never existed except in my mind.
- [35:23]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
I asked Dr. Ramsland a question I think we all want to know the answer to. The voices, these characters, how real is that for them?
- [35:34]
Dr. Katherine Ramslin
It's quite real. They hear things, they see things. They feel isolated because other people who don't hear and see those same things treat them like you're weird. Don't talk to me about that. And so, even though it's their reality and they can't get other people to agree to it, the voices direct them.
- [35:56]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
For Kyle, uncertainty is eternal.
- [36:00]
Kyle Ulbert
I have memories of things in my head that I remember doing. I have had it proven to me forcefully and repeatedly that they didn't happen.
- [36:11]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
Something nagged at me. Mike had said there were other bodies, and Kyle had said he buried them in the back of a house. So I asked him about it.
- [36:29]
Kyle Ulbert
I remember being a vigilante killer that targeted drug dealers and pedophiles. I remember doing it. But the times that I believe it happened, I've been able to prove conclusively that I wasn't actually able to do it at those times. And let's be real here, you know, that doesn't happen in real life. Real life, he gets caught. But it's hard to know that there are memories in my head that never actually happened. It's scary. Do you know that the entire time that I was with my ex wife, six years we were together for the longest time, I would wake up and I would be scared that I had imagined the whole thing. That I'm spending two or three hours at a time sitting on, you know, sitting at the phone, talking to a deadline. That she was imagined.
- [37:21]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
The fact here is that Kyle is mentally ill and he brutally murdered an innocent man for no reason and must bear responsibility. All of those things can be true at the same time. But there are complexities here that we need to understand. And I would never want to be in Kyle's position in his state of mind. None of us would. I mean, who's to blame for this? And how senseless is this tragedy?
- [37:53]
Dr. Katherine Ramslin
In my opinion, Clara has the largest, and she's very narcissistic. Her motivation seems to have been about money. I think she was afraid her father might be getting ready to cut her out of the will or not pay her college bills or something, which made her want to hurry this along because she was. She knew what he was worth, how much she would be getting if he were gone. And she told a considerable amount of lies through the process, trying to fool her siblings and bringing horror into their lives over. Over what she did. So she was a narcissistic manipulator who got caught.
- [38:43]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
Mike and Katie are out of prison today. Mike Foale was convicted of second degree murder and and sentenced to 18 years, many of which were later suspended. And so Mike wound up doing fewer than 10. He refused to speak to me. Katie Inglis was sentenced to a year for conspiracy and disappeared into private life. After she was released, she also refused to speak to me. Clara Schwartz remains in prison and is not eligible for parole until the 2000 and 40s. Clara has never spoken to anyone in the media about her crimes. Kyle, on the other hand, wanted to talk. He wanted me to Understand a few things.
- [39:37]
Kyle Ulbert
I'm not a monster. I'm not some psycho killer who gets off on this. You know, I didn't do this for kicks. What happened was a tragedy. People are going to think what they want to think. I'm here telling people this is what happened. This is how it happened.
- [39:54]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
You said I am not a monster. Do you believe Clara is a monster?
- [39:59]
Kyle Ulbert
Yep. From everything I have heard, she is not once admitted fault. She's not once admitted guilt or shown any remorse for what has happened. That's monstrous to me.
- [40:12]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
I asked Kyle for a final word.
- [40:15]
Kyle Ulbert
First and foremost, I mean it. I've said it before and I. You know, I will continue saying it. I'm sorry that this happened. This was not. This is and will remain the worst event of my life. And I ruined other people's lives. The process. And there's nothing I can do to take that back. How stupid I was and how foolish. Just how easily I got manipulated. If I had been. If I hadn't been as broken as I am and I had met Clara and allowed myself to spiral into these fantasy that she created. Dr. Schwartz could still be alive. There's no denying that.
- [41:29]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
As part of a promise I made to Kyle. If you wish to read his writing, find his substack at Cheshire Madness. A convicted killer with a substack. How life has changed since this crime took place.
- [41:48]
Kyle Ulbert
At the end of the day, Cheshire Madness is just me trying to reach out to the world. Because I've never been afraid of dying. Dying doesn't scare me. But I fear being forgotten. I fear living a life not worth remembering. When I die, nobody's gonna remember me. I'm not gonna leave anything behind except this one tragedy.
- [42:08]
Dr. Katherine Ramslin
That.
- [42:08]
Kyle Ulbert
That's what I'm gonna be known for. That's what I'm gonna. How I affected the world.
- [42:12]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
But it is your legacy. I mean, that's definitely what you'll be known for.
- [42:15]
Kyle Ulbert
And that's why I'm reaching out to the world. So there's something else people will know me for. Something other than the worst thing I've ever done.
- [42:25]
Narrator/M. William Phelps
Selfishness, manipulation, narcissism. The three common traits behind a lot of nonsensical murder. And certainly the three rail cars driving this train. Technology played no role. It was simply a weapon. Like a gun, poison, or a 27 inch sword. Clara allowed greed to dictate her behavior. She is no different from the man who walked into Schwartz's home and killed him. She is a killer herself. The Schwartz family suffered a tragedy. No family should endure and the patriarch, Dr. Robert Schwartz was sleeping, sleeping in the same house with the devil just a short walk down the hallway. Nobody ever suspected Clara was a threat. If you want more of the same storytelling you've heard on Fatal Fantasy, check out my weekly podcast, Crossing the Line with M. William Phelps. Wherever you get your favorite shows, I want to thank all of my sources, those who made it into the podcast and those who did not. I also owe great thanks to Kathryn St. Louis for her script consulting and Jonathan Hirsch for all of his hard work on every aspect of this series. And likewise to everyone at Sony Music from the very beginning. Thank you so much for listening to Fatal Fantasy. If you or anybody you know struggles with mental illness or for any mental health assistance or to get help, please visit the national alliance on mental illness nami.org or call 1-800-950-6264, text HELPLINE to 62640 or email helplineami.org Unlock all episodes of Fatal Fantasy ad free right now by subscribing to the Binge Podcast channel. Not only will you immediately unlock all episodes of this show, but you'll get binge access to an entire network of over 60 true crime and investigative podcasts. Shows like Catch Me if youf can and blink. All ad free. Plus on the 1st of every month, subscribers get a binge drop of a brand new series that's all episodes all at once. Search for the binge on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe at the top of the page, not on apple. Head to getthebinge.com to get access wherever you listen. Fatal Fantasy is a production of Sony Music Entertainment and M. William Phelps, llc. Written and executive produced by me from Sony Music Entertainment. The Executive producers are Jonathan Hirsch and Kathryn St. Louis. Our production manager is Samantha Allison. Jeremy Adair is my senior producer and script consultant, Matt Russell my sound engineer. I use Epidemic Sound for Music and SF.
- [46:28]
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