Finding Mom's Killer | 6. The Confessions of Jack Boyle

Summary

Summary of Episode 6: "The Confessions of Jack Boyle" - Finding Mom's Killer

Release Date: April 7, 2025

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Introduction

In the sixth episode of Finding Mom's Killer, host Steve Fishman delves deeper into the enigmatic case of Jack Boyle, a convicted murderer who has been behind bars for nearly 35 years. This episode, titled "The Confessions of Jack Boyle," explores Jack's personal journey, his relationship with his son Collier, and the lingering questions surrounding his mother's death.

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Jack Boyle's Account of the Murder

The episode opens with a rare and candid conversation between Steve Fishman and Jack Boyle, who is currently incarcerated at the Marion Correctional Institution.

[01:11] Jack Boyle: "I was kind of surprised she was on birth control pills. You know, you're kind of like."

Jack recounts the night his wife, Noreen Boyle, disappeared. According to his narrative, it was a tumultuous evening marked by intense arguments stemming from their ongoing divorce proceedings.

[09:23] Jack Boyle: "And when I came home that night, my mom made a cup of tea and put a piece of cake out for me."

He describes an unusual scene where Noreen, visibly angry and out of character, confronts him in the living room.

[10:10] Jack Boyle: "She wasn't wearing clothes. No, she had her panties on."

The confrontation escalates when Noreen grabs a cake knife, leading to a physical altercation. Jack explains how he pushed her, resulting in her hitting her head on a footstool.

[12:07] Jack Boyle: "I never saw that anywhere in her."

Panicked by the situation, Jack attempted to revive Noreen with CPR but was unsuccessful.

[15:23] Jack Boyle: "I mean, the fact that she was dead."

In a state of desperation, Jack decided to conceal the evidence by burying Noreen's body in the basement of a house he owned in Erie.

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Forensic Expert Analysis

To validate Jack's account, host Steve Fishman consults with Dr. Donald Jason, a seasoned medical examiner.

[26:15] Dr. Donald Jason: "Well, over 10,000. I love the work."

Dr. Jason reviews the autopsy report and provides critical insights:

[27:16] Dr. Jason: "She did have head trauma that could have knocked her out."

However, he emphasizes that the head trauma alone was insufficient to cause death.

[27:28] Dr. Jason: "Plastic bag suffocation."

This revelation indicates that Noreen's cause of death was suffocation from a plastic bag, not the head injury. Dr. Jason questions whether Jack, given his medical background, could have unintentionally suffocated his wife by placing the bag over her head while attempting CPR.

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Jack's Life in Prison and Path to Parole

The episode transitions to Jack's life behind bars, highlighting his transformation over three decades. Jack shares his struggles with guilt and his pursuit of redemption through various prison programs.

[31:26] Jack Boyle: "You have to hit the rock bottom, and then when you hit the bottom, then you can start to move forward."

Despite his efforts, Jack has been denied parole twice and faces a final hearing at the age of 82.

[33:02] Jack Boyle: "What am I doing wrong that they don't want me out of prison? And they keep telling me, keep doing what you're doing. Should I take any special program?"

Jack firmly believes that Collier, his son, is obstructing his chances of parole.

[33:16] Steve Fishman: "And maybe Collier did, too."

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Collier's Perspective

Collier Landry, Jack and Noreen's 11-year-old son at the time of his mother's death, provides a poignant perspective on the ongoing drama.

[34:16] Collier Landry: "I think my father was controlling. I think he's a psychopath and I think he wanted to have control of my mother and he wanted her to be right underneath his feet. I think it was some sick, twisted shit."

Despite harboring resentment, Collier remains conflicted about his father's possible release.

[37:41] Expert: "I went 30 years with Collier trying to convince him that his dad was a liar. And he'd say, well, maybe he'll get out and he can live with me."

Collier has also embarked on his own journey of healing by hosting an autobiographical podcast, Moving Past Murder, where he explores his family's history and personal struggles.

[35:30] Collier Landry: "Hey, movers. Welcome back to another episode of Moving Past Murder."

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Interaction Between Jack and Collier

A significant portion of the episode focuses on the strained relationship between Jack and Collier. After years of limited contact, Collier opens up his mailbox to Jack's persistent messages and eventually facilitates an email account for him.

[04:26] Collier Landry: "So I have an email from my father. Bumper, please let me know if this email gets through to you."

Their communication culminates in a telephone conversation during the Super Bowl, highlighting both their attempts to reconnect and the underlying tension.

[40:04] Steve Fishman: "With the ice broken. They chat about family illnesses. Yeah, they're a family again, apparently."

However, the call ends abruptly, symbolizing the fragile state of their relationship.

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Conclusion

The episode concludes by reflecting on the complex dynamics of forgiveness, guilt, and the possibility of reconciliation. Collier grapples with his emotions, oscillating between empathy for his father and the lingering pain of his mother's death.

[44:34] Collier Landry: "Part of me feels sad for him. Like, feel sad because he's my dad. Like, he's going to be released from prison and not have the... everything has changed so much."

Steve Fishman poses a thought-provoking question:

[45:54] Steve Fishman: "But now Collier is talking to Daddy again, though with reservations... Maybe Collier can extend that chance to his father to allow him the ultimate grace to be untethered from his past."

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Key Takeaways

• Jack Boyle's Confession: Jack provides a detailed account of the events leading to his wife's death, portraying it as a tragic accident. However, forensic analysis suggests deliberate suffocation.

• Parole Obstruction: Jack believes his son Collier is the primary obstacle to his release, adding layers to their strained relationship.

• Collier's Inner Conflict: As an adult, Collier continues to wrestle with his past, striving for closure while confronting his feelings towards his father.

• The Power of Forgiveness: The episode underscores the complexities of forgiveness and whether it's attainable between a convicted man and his estranged son.

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Finding Mom's Killer continues to unravel the intricate web of family secrets, guilt, and the quest for truth, offering listeners a deep dive into one of true crime's most haunting stories.

Transcript

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[Steve Fishman]

Listen to all episodes of Finding Mom's Killer ad free right now by subscribing to the binge. Visit the binge channel on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe at the top of the page or visit getthebinge.com to get access. Wherever you listen, the binge feed your true crime obsession.

[Expert]

The binge.

[Jack Boyle]

Hello, this is a prepaid debit call from Jack Boyle, an inmate at the Marion Correctional Institution, to accept this call.

[Steve Fishman]

Hey, Jack, can you hear me?

[Jack Boyle]

Yes, yes, I hear you. Okay.

[Steve Fishman]

Jack Boyle and I have been speaking regularly for several months. I sometimes wonder why he makes the effort. I ask a lot of intrusive questions. So what did you think when you learned that Sherry was pregnant?

[Jack Boyle]

Well, I was kind of surprised she was on birth control pills. You know, you're kind of like.

[Steve Fishman]

Still. Jack keeps calling. He also emails me via the prison's messaging system, gtl, and via the post office. Sends documents and photos of himself in prison. It seems he has things to tell me. He mentions, among other things, that he wants to come clean. But I know there's another reason he's in touch, maybe the real reason. Jack knows I'm speaking to Collier and Jack. He still wants to be a father to his son.

[Jack Boyle]

Used to sleep on the floor next to his crib. You know, all those kinds. Nervous father things. He was a good baby, a good young man. And I expect he still is. I still wanted to have a relationship as my son and the father. I always wanted that. I never. I went back to this moment.

[Steve Fishman]

But Collier hasn't responded to an email from Jack in 16 years. And this moment, right now, is complicated. Jack has been behind bars for almost 35 years. Jack is up for parole later this year. He's already been denied twice. He'll be 82 when he sees the parole board. This may be his final chance. And Jack is convinced that Collier holds the key to his freedom.

[Jack Boyle]

His input as a victim, son of the victim, child of the mother killed.

[Expert]

You know, it's important stuff.

[Steve Fishman]

You think it really all Comes down to Collier at this point.

[Jack Boyle]

Yeah, I really do. Yeah. Yeah. You have one minute remaining. And don't forget the last picture I sent you. Would you scan it to Collier?

[Steve Fishman]

Yes, definitely. I will.

[Jack Boyle]

Tell him he says hello and I love him.

[Steve Fishman]

I sure will.

[Jack Boyle]

Thank you for using gtl.

[Steve Fishman]

A few days later, we help Collier navigate the prison bureaucracy and set up his own email account. There's a message waiting for him.

[Collier Landry]

So I have an email from my father. Bumper, please let me know if this email gets through to you. Hoping this works, dad. To the point. Very succinct. I. You know, I've put up some boundaries, obviously, and boundaries are good for protecting one's mental health, but it is, in a way, too. It's nice to, you know, be able to communicate with him. So I guess. Here we go.

[Steve Fishman]

Nice to hear from Collier. Starts typing hi, Pop.

[Collier Landry]

What do I say? Nice to talk to you. Long time. I don't. I don't really know. I mean, it's been such a. It's been a while, right? So now I'm analyzing what I wrote because it's my father and he might be critical of my writing. So now I'm like, oh, I'm sitting here. Let me grammatically correct this really fast. I guess some things never change. All right, sending.

[Steve Fishman]

Should a son rescue a father who may not deserve to be rescued? Collier has a decision to make. From Sony Music Entertainment and Orbit Media, this is finding Mom's killer. I'm Steve Fishman. Episode 6 the Confessions of Jack Boyle.

[Narrator]

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[Steve Fishman]

At this point, Jack Boyle and I have spoken for hours and hours. My wife isn't thrilled that I spend so much time chatting with a convicted wife killer. But if someone wants to understand what really happened, you have to talk to Jack. Jack is the black hole at the center of this story. For years, people who followed this murder talked and talked about Jack. But Jack, he wouldn't talk to anyone.

[Jack Boyle]

The things I'm talking with you, I've never talked to anybody. After the trial, I tried to sequester this. As painful and bad as it was in a part of my mind that I wouldn't have to ever think about again.

[Steve Fishman]

On the witness stand almost four decades ago, Jack swore he had nothing to do with his wife's death. He said he had no idea how she ended up buried in his basement. But it's been a long time since that testimony. A lot has changed. Jack says he's changed. He says he's ready to tell what really happened to Noreen. So let's call this Jack's version. Jack starts at the beginning, the night Noreen disappeared. It's a little before three in the morning on December 31, 1989 at the Boyle residence in Mansfield, Ohio. Eleven year old Collier is is asleep in his bedroom upstairs with his Batman clock and his Garfield toys. Noreen retired early to her bedroom also upstairs. Jack's mother is staying with them for the holiday.

[Jack Boyle]

And when I came home that night, my mom made a cup of tea and put a piece of cake out for me. She came put it and was on that table.

[Steve Fishman]

So.

[Jack Boyle]

With, with the cake, of course, my mother being proper, there was a cake knife and a little cake fork and all that stuff.

[Steve Fishman]

Noreen's bedroom is across the hall from Collier's. But according to Jack, she isn't there because she's marched down the stairs to the first floor living room. The living room has been pretty much Jack's bedroom for years. He sleeps there on the couch, usually undisturbed. But tonight, he says, Noreen shakes him awake.

[Jack Boyle]

I never expected that kind of behavior from her, where she would be so irate.

[Steve Fishman]

According to Jack, Noreen is furious. And there's something else unusual about her.

[Jack Boyle]

She wasn't wearing clothes.

[Steve Fishman]

Well, so would she. Was she naked?

[Jack Boyle]

No, she had her panties on.

[Steve Fishman]

That's all that's unusual. That's like, what is going on? This is a couple that hasn't slept together in years.

[Jack Boyle]

I think maybe she wanted to get me upset over the divorce. Oh, look, you were going to lose something terrific.

[Steve Fishman]

According to Jack, Noreen picks a fight about. Well, about everything. The Boyle's divorce proceedings officially started about a month earlier, and Noreen, according to Jack's theory, is just now coming to grips with her future. He reasons that after years of being a physician's wife with the leisure time and the disposable income that comes along with it, Noreen hates the idea of working again, which is what a judge said was in her future.

[Jack Boyle]

When the judge said that, I think that blew her whole world up.

[Steve Fishman]

But back to the living room. Noreen and Jackson are arguing.

[Jack Boyle]

She started, you know, ranting and raving about she didn't like Mansfield, she didn't like this town. She should have never left Philadelphia. She should have never married me, you know, and of course, I was adding more lives to the fire. I said, well, I guess you're right. You shouldn't have married me.

[Steve Fishman]

Jack says he was surprised by North Noreen's intense anger. Their relationship was frosty, not heated.

[Jack Boyle]

I just. I never, never saw that anywhere in her. As Noreen and I were sitting there and she was getting more upset, I'm pretty sure she grabbed the knife, the cake knife. She could have grabbed the fork, but I'm pretty sure she grabbed the cake knife and waved it in front of me.

[Steve Fishman]

A cake knife is pretty much a butter knife, blunt and rounded. So Noreen is up now, waving the cake knife. Jack sits on the couch below her, then stands up. He's six foot three. She's five four.

[Jack Boyle]

And that's when I pushed her away from me, and I backpedaled off the sofa and hit the floor. And of course, she went the other direction. There was another chair off on the side, a single chair with a footstool. And that's what she hit her head on, that footstool.

[Steve Fishman]

A heavy wooden footstool. Now, according to Jack, Noreen is lying motionless on the floor. So what does Dr. Jack Boyle think?

[Jack Boyle]

I said, I gotta get out of here. I went up to grab my little gym bag. I don't know where I was going to go. Probably go back to my office and sleep on a chair or something. So I was upstairs probably 10 minutes, maybe 15 minutes.

[Steve Fishman]

And then what happens? You come down and what?

[Jack Boyle]

She was right there on the floor where I left her. And I said, oh, my God. Now what?

[Steve Fishman]

And she's not getting up. Noreen is not moving at all.

[Jack Boyle]

And, you know, then I went to kind of battle stations, looking for a pulse, looking for a breath. And I said, oh, my God.

[Steve Fishman]

Jack said he did CPR, chest compressions for 15 minutes.

[Jack Boyle]

All went downhill from there.

[Steve Fishman]

Jack, what are you thinking?

[Jack Boyle]

This is unbelievable that. That this has occurred. You know, like, oh, my God, I just can't look at this.

[Steve Fishman]

So Jack is staring at Noreen. She's on her back, motionless, almost naked, lying on their beige living room carpet, her head next to the footstool. What did she look like?

[Jack Boyle]

Oh, boy. She looked. In a sense, she looked serene and quiet, as if she was sleeping. You know, in a sense, she looked peaceful. I just couldn't. I just emotionally could not look at her body like that. Her face.

[Steve Fishman]

What was wrong with her face that you couldn't look at it?

[Jack Boyle]

I mean, the fact that she was dead.

[Steve Fishman]

Jack goes to the kitchen and gets a garbage bag, white and opaque. He slipped it over Noreen's head.

[Jack Boyle]

And the reason I tied it, I didn't want the bag to come off.

[Steve Fishman]

So you sure she was. She was dead?

[Jack Boyle]

Positive. I am positive. Which is all part of my panic. I was like, what am I going to do? What do I do? I don't know what to do. And somewhere in all that disjointed thinking came the idea, oh, I could take the body up to Erie and bury the body.

[Steve Fishman]

To Erie? To the house he bought just two weeks earlier.

[Jack Boyle]

The stupid jackhammer was in the car. It was just an incidental thing.

[Steve Fishman]

Jack had rented the jackhammer two days earlier to do home repairs, he said. The prosecution claimed this was evidence of premeditation.

[Jack Boyle]

So I think those were just happenstances.

[Steve Fishman]

And what was the instinct about the tarp?

[Jack Boyle]

Oh, the tarp. The same thing. I mean, the. What am I going to do here? The tarp happened to be convenient. Was on the back porch again, trying to figure out, how am I going to correct this or fix this? Even if I'm able to fix it, who knows? I figured, let me dig up the basement. That's where we went.

[Steve Fishman]

So Jack lifts Noreen's body onto the tarp, wraps her and carries her to his pickup truck, which is in the driveway. The automatic light from the garage suddenly turns. Turns on. No one's around. He places Noreen on the seat in the second row. And then Jack returns to the couch, turns the news on the tv, takes a shower. Collier comes downstairs. Jack tells Collier, mommy took a little vacation. And then he puts the kids and his mother into his other car, the Range Rover, and drives them to McDonald's for breakfast. After that, he runs an errand to Columbus, an hour away, apparently not showing any of the panic he recently experienced. In the afternoon, Jack takes his pickup truck on a three hour drive to Erie. The trip to Erie is one he'd planned on making for good sometime soon. Leaving behind his old life, starting a new one. Now, with his wife's body in the backseat of his pickup truck, Jack carries his past with him. On the road to Erie, Jack recalls a spitting rain. So wiper's on. The highway's slick. Jack doesn't speed. Not his nature. It's quiet in the car. So in your irrational thinking, what are you thinking?

[Jack Boyle]

The mindset was to keep moving for somehow, maybe psychologically thinking I'm distancing myself from the tragedy by moving by driving to Erie.

[Steve Fishman]

When he arrives at the house on Wolf Road, Jack opens the garage door with the key he'd fortunately retrieved just a day before. He carries Noreen's body into the house. Into the kitchen.

[Jack Boyle]

Yeah, it was heavy. It was heavy.

[Steve Fishman]

The house is completely empty. The sound of Jack's footsteps must echo the basement stairs start at the kitchen. Jack can't reach the light switch. It's awkward with Noreen's body in his arms. So he sets her down for a minute. The basement is huge and silent, except for the hum of the furnace. Jack heads to a nook at the far end where he and his girlfriend Sherry had discussed putting a kid's playroom. He fetches the jackhammer.

[Jack Boyle]

Of course, I didn't know how to use it, but, you know, just an absolute mess. Absolute mess.

[Steve Fishman]

Jack places the tarp with Noreen inside against a wall, the bag still over her head. He figures out how to work the jackhammer. It makes an incredible noise, bouncing off the concrete floor and walls. Luckily, his neighbors aren't close. It takes several hours to jackhammer through the basement floor and dig out the dirt below with a shovel. Then there's the body.

[Jack Boyle]

I just kind of drug it, dragged it over and put it in the hole. Such As a naive day of trying to. I think it's going to go away on its own or disappear on its own. Thinking if I covered it up, it would never be discovered and I would never have to see it again or think about it.

[Steve Fishman]

For me, the most disturbing part is what happens next. How does Jack move through the world after burying his wife? He acts as if nothing has happened. He washed his clothes to get rid of the evidence. He drove back to Mansfield and took a shower. And calmly, blithely, he proceeded to tell lie after lie in the ensuing weeks. No one notices that Jack is under stress. Maybe he's not. Maybe the panic has just melted away. Sherry doesn't sense anything crazy going on or.

[Jack Boyle]

Well, I guess I must have been because no one ever said anything to me. So I must have had some kind of kept up some kind of a front.

[Steve Fishman]

So that's Jack's version. And whatever truth value one assigns to his account. It makes me think of one of the last things Jack told the jurors shortly before they found him guilty. I'm human and normal, just like you, Jack. I don't think so. As for Jack's assertion that Noreen's death was an accident, well, it does fit the details. Why was Noreen's body naked when cops dug it up? Because Noreen came downstairs naked. The thuds Collier heard. Jack falling and Noreen falling. The footsteps Collier heard in the hallway, Jack's as he went to a closet to grab his getaway bag. The blunt force trauma listed in the autopsy. The result of Noreen falling against the footstool. And then Jack doesn't have with him the concrete to fill in the grave or the astroturf to cover it, he buys those days later. Maybe he didn't plan this in advance, but for me, another question looms over Jack's account. Jack was the only one present when Noreen died and when she was buried. There's no way to verify many of the details. A lot of people are going to say, well, he's lied so much in the past. Why should I believe him now?

[Jack Boyle]

Well, they're absolutely correct. I mean, I have lied in the past and I admit to that, to doing that. Noreen's death will always remain a tragedy forever into eternity. And I'm the one responsible for that. Accidental or otherwise.

[Steve Fishman]

Accidental or otherwise. Let's consider this a minute. Because even if you accept that Noreen's death was an accident, that the evidence used to prove premeditation was really just happenstance, and that the true reason for the body in the basement is that Jack simply panicked. There's another problem with his story. How about the blunt force trauma that couldn't have killed her?

[Expert]

No, it wasn't that bad.

[Steve Fishman]

According to this expert in Autopsies.

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[Steve Fishman]

How many autopsies do you think you've done?

[Expert]

Well, over 10,000. I love the work.

[Steve Fishman]

Cutting open dead bodies is fun.

[Expert]

Solving mysteries is fun. Okay, let's not waste time. Go ahead. What do you want to know?

[Steve Fishman]

This is Dr. Donald Jason. He's been a medical examiner for 40 years, a professor for 20, and my guess is impatient forever. I asked him to review the autopsy report and evaluate the cause of death. Jack told me Noreen died after hitting her head on a footstool. He said he tried to resuscitate her to no avail. In his telling, the plastic bag was just a cosmetic thing. He couldn't bear to look at her face. According to the original autopsy, Noreen did suffer blunt force trauma, which Dr. Jason concurs could have come from the fall.

[Expert]

She did have head trauma that could have knocked her out.

[Steve Fishman]

But here's the surprise.

[Expert]

That's not a cause of death by itself.

[Steve Fishman]

So the cause of death.

[Expert]

Plastic bag suffocation.

[Steve Fishman]

So wait, it's not the blow to the head that kills her. That only knocked her unconscious. It's the bag that Jack slips over her head. Could Jack Boyle, an experienced physician, have accidentally missed that Noreen was still alive when he came down the stairs? He saw her motionless on the carpet. He says he checked her pulse and her breathing. I mean, is there any chance you were premature with the bag over the head?

[Jack Boyle]

Well, there always could be that sure.

[Steve Fishman]

So accidentally or otherwise, it appears that Jack did in fact kill Noreen by suffocating her. Why didn't he just admit all this from the start? Say it was an accident? He might have been charged with a lesser crime. Spent a lot less time in prison. Why look at the jury and swear you had nothing to do with her death? Jack says he was basically trying to get away with it. He didn't have a plan. He had panic. So he went to the witness stand and he lied. Whatever came into his head, though, Jack, you did stick with the lie for years. Well past the point of whatever initial panic gripped you.

[Jack Boyle]

I mean, I know full well that I was responsible. I was guilty.

[Steve Fishman]

But now it's as if a switch flips. It's weird. Jack now says he takes responsibility for Noreen's death and for lying his ass off. But still somehow believes he was railroaded. Seriously? That's the word he uses?

[Jack Boyle]

Yes. I think that I was being railroaded. These guys all in collusion of some sort. Jack is the new guy in town. We don't care about him. We're the old timers here in town.

[Steve Fishman]

Old timers? According to Jack, they were all in cahoots. Including his own lawyer, the judge, the prosecutors, and certainly Dave Messmore, who he says shaped Collier's testimony.

[Jack Boyle]

You know, you gotta sit back and look and wonder about a lot of things. Maybe these guys had it out for me.

[Steve Fishman]

And maybe Collier did, too.

[Jack Boyle]

What Collier did. So here we go. Daddy's the bad guy and he killed Molly. I'm never going to talk to Daddy again.

[Steve Fishman]

But now Collier is talking to Daddy again, though with reservations.

[Collier Landry]

Anyways, I'm sort of struggling a lot lately with what I'm going to say to my father. Because it's been so long. I don't know.

[Expert]

Have you received any of the mail, the two manila envelopes yet?

[Steve Fishman]

I have one Result of my conversations with Jack. An overflowing mailbox. Jack wants to show me all the programs he's completed in prison. Cage youe Rage, Victim Awareness, Resolving Conflict. Jack must have taken every course the prison offers. Toastmasters and Flag Etiquette are among his credits. Jack is also a peer social worker recruited by the administration and a religious advisor. Jack says all this has made him a different person.

[Jack Boyle]

You have to hit the rock bottom, and then when you hit the bottom, then you can start to move forward.

[Steve Fishman]

Rock bottom was 1997. Sherry had left him unaware that Jack had lied to her, too. He'd exhausted his legal appeals. He felt like life was over.

[Jack Boyle]

Thinking about suicide, thinking about harming yourself, thinking about what a terrible person you are. Thinking about there's no future anywhere in anything you do.

[Steve Fishman]

Then one day, Jack is sitting in the prison's day room among inmates, watching tv, playing cards. He's leafing through the Old Testament when he feels something.

[Jack Boyle]

It was not the skies opening up and the flutter of angels wings and Starburst or whatever. I just had a very warm sense and a calming presence all over me. And that's when my actual life turned around.

[Steve Fishman]

Did God forgive you?

[Jack Boyle]

Well, yes, God does forgive, but will Anyone else?

[Steve Fishman]

In 2010, after two decades in prison, Jack was finally eligible for parole. He was denied. The board told him to try again in 10 years. So in 2020, he did. He was denied again.

[Expert]

What am I doing wrong that they don't want me out of prison? And they keep telling me, keep doing what you're doing. Should I take any special program?

[Jack Boyle]

No.

[Expert]

Should I do something special?

[Jack Boyle]

No.

[Expert]

Just keep doing what you're doing.

[Steve Fishman]

And so Jack became convinced that Collier was blocking his parole. And as Jack sees it, Collier speaks for his mother, which gives him a powerful voice.

[Expert]

I mean, he just has to say, I love you, Daddy, and I think you were a bad boy and you should stay in prison. Well, they're going to take that as keeping me here for life.

[Jack Boyle]

That's how they do.

[Steve Fishman]

In the past, Jack had tried to enlist Collier's support, had asked him by way of emails.

[Jack Boyle]

He would write a letter of support supporting my parole. And of course, I never got an answer back. It's not funny. I don't know why I can't think of the right word. But, you know, because of this whole thing, he's now become my arch enemy, so to speak.

[Steve Fishman]

Of course, if anyone has good reason to oppose Jack's parole, it's Collier. The question now is, will he ever believe that his father's crime is forgivable.

[Collier Landry]

I think my father was controlling. I think he's a psychopath and I think he wanted to have control of my mother and he wanted her to be right underneath his feet. I think it was some sick, twisted shit.

[Steve Fishman]

Okay? Collier doesn't buy the accident version. But guess what? None of this means Collier opposes Jack going free. How are you feeling about his parole?

[Collier Landry]

I don't know how I feel about his parole.

[Steve Fishman]

I visited Collier one day at his apartment in Santa Monica, California. At 47, he's nearly the same age as his father was when. Well, when everything happened. These days, he's more SoCal than Midwest. He's got bleach, blonde highlights a gym addiction, ambitions in the entertainment industry. He lives in a nice one bedroom apartment that's part workspace. It's lined with tripods and cameras. There's a podcast studio upstairs. Yes, Collier has a podcast. It's autobiographical.

[Collier Landry]

Hey, movers. Welcome back to another episode of Moving Past Murder. I'm your host, Collier Landry, and what's going on never gets old. It really doesn't. I love doing it.

[Steve Fishman]

So Collier is still captivated by his family history. He doesn't always seem to want to put it behind him. Instead, he goes deeper, keeps unburying secrets. He's learned a lot about his fathers. One day, talking to his aunt, his mother's sister, Collier learns about Noreen's secrets. For instance, there are the stories his mom told about her wealthy childhood as a member of Philadelphia's Schmidt Brewery family.

[Collier Landry]

I remember asking these questions about my mother to her and learning about that the brewery didn't exist. We didn't come from this wealthy family, which, I mean, I guess probably deep.

[Steve Fishman]

Down inside, I realized Noreen's roots were modest, middle class, just like Jack's. One reason they connected, I guess another was that they were both in on a con, Both trying to appear more than they were. I imagine them at a dinner table of guests, one listening to the other spin fictions about their pasts.

[Collier Landry]

In a lot of ways, I almost deified my mother. But when I found out about that, I think it almost humanized her in a way. With me, it kind of knocked her down off Olympus a little bit. And she came down to the land of the mortals. And I realized that she was a human being with real flaws.

[Steve Fishman]

Flaws. Collier made peace with his mother's lies. Jacks are different. They hurt people. And for Collier, that's fraught. His father's parole is fast approaching, and he still isn't sure what to do, but other people are.

[Expert]

I went 30 years with Collier trying to convince him that his dad was a liar. And he'd say, well, maybe he'll get out and he can live with me.

[Steve Fishman]

Dave Messmore is 81 now. The same age as Jack. He retired decades ago. Unlike Jack and Collier, he doesn't seem to have changed much. The same stoic, mustachioed, mild mannered copy who showed up on the boil's doorstep and actually listened to the hyper, articulate 11 year old worried about his mom. Dave's still devoted to Collier. What does he think about Jack living with Collier?

[Expert]

I said, oh, that's a good idea. I said, it's just a matter of time until he kills you. You're the one that testified against him. If you think he doesn't forget that, you're very, very mistaken.

[Steve Fishman]

As far as Dave is concerned, Jack should die in prison. And he'll tell the parole board that again this year. Nothing Jack can do about this roadblock. But Collier, despite the influence of Dave, has a more complex view.

[Collier Landry]

On one side, you have this, you know, man who's a monster, who all these just very destructive things. On the other hand, he's my father and I do love him and I want to make sure he's okay.

[Steve Fishman]

Since we helped set up his email, Collier's been sending Jack photos of himself, his girlfriend, his dog. But he's nervous about speaking on the phone and they've arranged a call.

[Collier Landry]

So I don't know. I don't know what his. What he's gonna say or do or anything like that. So it's just. It's all a lot. It's a lot.

[Steve Fishman]

Then one day, after years of silence, Collier's phone rings.

[Jack Boyle]

Thank you for using ttl.

[Collier Landry]

Dad, you there? Hello? Can you hear me?

[Jack Boyle]

Can hear you. Can't you hear me?

[Collier Landry]

I can hear you. I just couldn't hear you back now. I can hear you. Yeah.

[Steve Fishman]

The prison's phone system is spotty, which seems like a metaphor. Will this father and son be able to hear each other to connect as it happens? The super bowl is on as Jack calls. The pair has always talked sports, and Philadelphia, Jack's hometown, is competing.

[Collier Landry]

So the game is about ready to have its first snap. The Eagles. Kansas City won the toss and deferred to the Eagles.

[Jack Boyle]

I hope they win. They deserve that. They work hard this last couple years to get there. So we'll see what happens.

[Steve Fishman]

With the ice broken. They chat about family illnesses. Yeah, they're a family again, apparently. And then Collier turns to the subject. That's on both their minds.

[Collier Landry]

What is your plan with August?

[Steve Fishman]

August is when Jack expects to go to the parole board.

[Jack Boyle]

I'm all prepared. That's. I'm prepared. There's not a problem or anything there. What are you talking about? A place to go after I leave here, you mean?

[Collier Landry]

Yeah, yeah, right.

[Jack Boyle]

And I will go to the Conway Embark House in Franklin county for 90 days.

[Steve Fishman]

Jack has a halfway house lined up, but that's only for a short time.

[Collier Landry]

So then where would you go?

[Jack Boyle]

That's a good question. I think I should be okay in terms of getting some kind of a job without any problems. You know, I'm a hard worker. I go where I gotta go, so I'm good, you know?

[Steve Fishman]

Jack is optimistic about making parole. He's optimistic about a lot of things. Apparently, Jack believes that at 82, he will jump back into the workforce, fend for himself. He must know that the parole board wants assurance that a parole a burden on society. What Jack really needs is a family member to take him in. Weirdly, it's the same situation Collier once faced. And so Jack asks about a subject that's constantly on his mind.

[Jack Boyle]

You're not thinking about putting me in your garage or something, are you?

[Collier Landry]

I don't have a garage to put you in anyways.

[Steve Fishman]

And then the phone cuts Jack off. Collier can't hear his dad. His words become a kind of absurdist monologue, which I find heartbreaking.

[Collier Landry]

Hello? Dad, can you hear me? Think I lost you. I'll wait for it to circle back around. You there? You there, Pop? Hello? Dad, can you hear me?

[Steve Fishman]

Later, I asked Jack about the call. His first call with Collier in years. Jack felt great about it. Relieved. He felt a real connection.

[Jack Boyle]

I asked him, do you have a room for me or a place in the garage? Garage. And then he said, no, I don't have a garage with my house. So that was like a joke about if Daddy moves in with Collier, Daddy's going to move into the garage. That kind of thing. Just a joke kind of thing, was it?

[Steve Fishman]

Yeah. And then you. You backed off?

[Jack Boyle]

Yeah. I didn't want to. I didn't want him to think I was obligating him to find a place for me to live in his house. I mean, he may offer that down the road. I don't know.

[Steve Fishman]

Jack and Collier, roommates. I'm not too sure about that. Neither is Collier.

[Collier Landry]

I don't feel vengeful towards my father and me investigating with Dave and the trial and him going to prison and all of that. I think that I was satisfied with that outcome. That was the vengeance. But it doesn't mean that we can skip down the yellow brick road holding hands and being like, ah, you know, everything's great.

[Steve Fishman]

You know.

[Collier Landry]

Part of me feels sad for him. Like, feel sad because he's my dad. Like, he's going to be released from prison and not have the. You know, everything has changed so much. It almost feels unfair to release somebody like that. I can take care of him. I don't even know. I don't even know what to say. It's a lot. It's a lot, man. I'm gonna figure it out. This is all the stuff I think about on a continual basis all the time. I mean, look.

[Steve Fishman]

Collier's thoughts drift between sadness, love, practicality, and even vengeance. He wavers. I understand. You understand? Jack has ruined people's lives. He undid Collier's.

[Collier Landry]

Like, is my support even necessary at this point? He's been in there for 35 years. I mean, let the guy out.

[Steve Fishman]

Collier. Says the guy. He doesn't say daddy. He doesn't say a pop. Maybe it's not personal at this point. The boy who put his father in prison is gone. Today, his life is his own. Maybe Collier is, in his way, free of his past, free to use it, no longer subject to it. And so maybe Collier can extend that chance to his father to allow him the ultimate grace to be untethered from his past. 35 years is a long time. So, yeah, let the guy have his shot at freedom, too. Forgiveness is a blessing, of course, for the one who receives, but maybe more so for the person who offers. Unlock all episodes of Finding Mom's Killer ad free right now by subscribing to the binge podcast channel, not only will you immediately unlock all episodes of this show, but you'll get binge access to an entire network of other great true crime and investigative podcasts. All ad free. Plus, on the first of every month, subscribers get a binge drop of a brand new series that's all episodes all at once. Search for the binge on Apple podcasts and hit subscribe at the top of the page, not on apple. Head to getthebinge.com to get access wherever you listen. Finding Mom's Killer is a production of Orbit Media, creator and host, Steve Fishman. That's me. Our senior producer is Drew Nellis. Our producer and production coordinator, Austin Smith. Our story editor, Emil Klein. Fact check by Ryan Alderman. Mixing and sound design by Scott Somerville. Our lawyers are at Davis Wright Tremaine from Sony Music Entertainment. Our executive producer is Jonathan Hirsch. Special thanks to Emily Rasik, Steve Ackerman, Catherine St. Louis, Sammy Allison, Fisher Stevens, Rhea Julian, Dan Bopkoff at wme. We'd like to thank Evan Krasic, Marisa Hurwitz and Ben Davis. We want to also thank Carl Hunnel at the Richland Source for the generous use of his podcast studio. And a really warm thank you to Collier Landry for sharing his story and for his production assistance. SA.