Hunting the Bogeyman | 6. Answers

Summary

The Binge Crimes: Hunting the Bogeyman

Episode 6: “Answers” (December 8, 2025)
Host: Peter McDonnell
Primary Guests: Nicole Ernest-Pate, Paul Holes, Chief Tim Mattis, Rebecca Weicker
Podcast by: Sony Music Entertainment

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Overview

The finale of "Hunting the Bogeyman” follows survivor Nicole Ernest-Pate as she seeks closure after enduring a brutal attack by Roy Waller, the NorCal Rapist. This episode focuses on Nicole’s continued struggle for truth and healing, her quest for answers from both her assailant and law enforcement, the possibility of a direct meeting with her attacker, and a powerful return to her former home. Through interviews with detectives, law enforcement, facilitators, and Nicole herself, the episode explores trauma, accountability, institutional failures, and the enduring search for hope and resolution.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Nicole’s Desire to Meet Roy Waller

• Nicole reconsidered meeting Roy Waller in prison, not to confront him just as a victim, but almost out of detective-like curiosity.
  • “I don’t want to sit down with him as, like, his victim. It’s almost an intellectual curiosity, almost like I’m a detective. He’s like a black hole, and he’s still a black hole. And I don’t like that.” (Nicole, 02:20)
• Peter and Nicole recognize the challenge: Waller may still refuse to provide answers, holding on to control even from behind bars.

The DNA Link & Police Response

• Paul Holes, the acclaimed detective, recounts how Nicole’s case was finally linked to the NorCal Rapist series:
  • Holes explains that his lab took the initiative to generate a DNA profile from Nicole’s case and found a match. (04:05)
  • Holes notes that Rohnert Park police should have been aware in 2002 that her 1991 case was tied to a serial rapist:
    • “They should have been aware. Now I can’t say for certain… but I don’t know how they wouldn’t be.” (Paul Holes, 05:22)
• Nicole was shocked:
  • “Not one person bothered to tell me until 2006.” (Nicole, 05:30)
• Peter seeks response from Chief Tim Mattis (current Police Chief, not involved at the time):
  • Mattis condemns the department’s questioning of Nicole’s credibility in a 1992 news article:
    • “That’s nothing I’ve ever done and nothing I would ever support.” (Chief Mattis, 06:21)
  • On lacking the interview transcript:
    • “I can’t find the transcript… Our job is to investigate the crimes and take care of our victims, not doubt them.” (Mattis, 07:05)
  • Mattis says the investigation pursued all leads, but concedes that fragmented police jurisdictions made it nearly impossible to solve the series in isolation. (08:07)

Reflections on Victim Treatment and Missed Opportunities

• Peter questions whether doubts in Nicole’s credibility led to missed opportunities to stop Waller sooner.
• Mattis is deeply impressed by Nicole’s detailed police statement:
  • “She realized, I can’t do anything physically right now to stop this, but I can surely use my other senses… She said, I’m gonna win in the long run on this. … We should be celebrating the fact that we’ve got an amazing witness here.” (Chief Mattis, 09:37)

Understanding the Mind of a Predator

• Paul Holes breaks down the escalation from trespassing to assault:
  • “He is now… getting off of being inside this woman’s residence. … He’s probably breaking into homes during his teenage years and he’s, you know, just starts ramping up.” (Paul Holes, 11:49, 12:33)
  • Holes suspects more unreported victims.
• Nicole theorizes that Waller wanted to record the attack:
  • “I think he wanted to record the act. And that he was pissed that he couldn’t.” (Nicole, 14:26)
• Discussion of Waller’s wanting to leave voyeuristic messages or mementos behind, including a photo of the top of his own head (14:33).

Serial Killers Learn from Each Other

• Holes draws parallels between Waller, the Golden State Killer (Joseph DeAngelo), and even the Zodiac Killer, speculating that Waller’s methods may have been shaped by earlier, famous cases:
  • “I’ve wondered if that attack inspired Golden State killer with his M.O. and how he approached his couples.” (Paul Holes, 16:53)
  • “That’s what they do, they pay attention.” (Paul Holes, 17:04)

The Mysterious Phone Call and the Green Robe

• Nicole recalls, a year after her attack, she received a call in her new house; a man made eerie references to her green robe.
  • “And he said, well, I see you’ve moved. And I said, who is this? And he said, where’s that little green robe?” (Nicole, 18:25)
• Initial suspicion fell on “Carl G.,” but DNA cleared him.
• Carl claims he learned about the robe by accident, comparing his phone skills to those of a psychic; Nicole says she never met him where he claims.
  • “There was a way that I had of manipulating conversations on the phone, much like a tarot card reader... people would give up information they didn’t realize.” (Carl, 22:58)
• Open question: Did Roy Waller know or contact Carl? The detail remains unexplained.
  • “The green robe is still a mystery... he never became a boogeyman like Roy Waller. Carl’s now married with kids, and he admitted to me he made a lot of mistakes.” (Peter, 25:43)

Will Nicole Meet Her Attacker?

• 30 states, including California, offer formalized, facilitated victim-offender meetings.
• Paul Holes warns Nicole about the psychological risks:
  • “He’s going to try to push your buttons… But you may walk away and he’s pushed a button where you just like, oh, shit.” (Paul Holes, 26:49)
  • “Him sitting across the table from you could just be a big turn on.” (Paul Holes, 27:16)
• Facilitator Rebecca Weicker describes victim-offender dialogues:
  • “There’s probably anywhere from 4 to 9 to 12 months of preparation… I’ve seen that people come with questions… and get answers. … For the incarcerated person, they get to apologize, they get to take responsibility, they get to show up as more than their crime as a full human being.” (Rebecca Weicker, 31:05)
  • “It’s rare that somebody would say, I didn’t do it. And it’s even more rare that they… engage with a survivor in some way.” (Weicker, 32:08)
• Waller continues to deny wrongdoing, telling his family he’s being railroaded and warning them to lock up at night, chillingly:
  • “[He] acts like an innocent man caught in the web of a corrupt system… He’d say, be careful, it’s nighttime. Check the windows. Make sure all the doors are locked.” (Peter, 29:05)

Nicole’s Return Home: The Cleansing Ritual

• Nicole visits her former Sonoma County townhouse where the attack happened, at the invitation of current resident Melissa, who reached out after learning her home’s history. (33:21)
• Nicole experiences a strong reaction to the stairs, the location where she first sensed danger:
  • “The stairs are always a big problem. Were always a big problem for me.” (Nicole, 35:58)
• Nicole, Melissa, and the team “smudge” the house, seeking to cleanse it of negative energy.
  • “Spent a good amount of time where the couch was.” (Nicole, 37:44)
  • “I want the stairwell to go away.” (Nicole, 38:23)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On seeking closure and truth:
  “He’s like a black hole, and he’s still a black hole. And I don’t like that.”
  — Nicole Ernest-Pate (02:20)

• On police failure to communicate critical information:
  “Not one person bothered to tell me until 2006.”
  — Nicole Ernest-Pate (05:30)

• On respecting victims:
  “Our job is to be advocates for the victim, and the facts of the case will, in the end, lead where it needs to go. But to question the victim’s credibility like that... that’s nothing I’ve ever done and nothing I would ever support.”
  — Chief Tim Mattis (06:21)

• On detailed recollection as remarkable strength:
  “We should be celebrating that we’ve got an amazing witness here.”
  — Chief Tim Mattis (10:10)

• On the psychology of predatory escalation:
  “When somebody is breaking into a house and sexually assaulting, well, they likely have hundreds of burglaries in their past.”
  — Paul Holes (11:49)

• On a predator’s fantasies:
  “His fantasies never stop. They never go away.”
  — Nicole Ernest-Pate (27:21)

• On the chilling aftermath:
  “He’d say, be careful, it’s nighttime. Check the windows. Make sure all the doors are locked.”
  — Peter McDonnell, reading Waller’s prison calls (29:05)

• On returning to the scene:
  “The stairs are always a big problem. Were always a big problem for me.”
  — Nicole Ernest-Pate (35:58)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:20 – Nicole discusses her complex feelings about meeting Waller.
• 04:05–05:34 – Paul Holes details how Nicole’s case was matched to the NorCal series; Nicole reacts.
• 06:21–10:10 – Chief Mattis addresses the past mishandling of Nicole’s case and victim treatment.
• 11:06–14:26 – Paul Holes analyzes Waller’s escalation and possible motivations.
• 16:53–17:30 – Discussion of how serial killers mimic and learn from predecessors.
• 18:25–25:43 – The mystery of the phone call about the green robe, interaction with Carl, and unresolved questions.
• 26:38–27:21 – Paul Holes and Nicole weigh the risks and implications of a victim-offender meeting.
• 31:05–32:08 – Rebecca Weicker explains the process and challenges of victim–offender dialogue.
• 33:21–38:23 – Nicole’s return to her former home, emotional confrontation on the stairs, and smudging ritual.

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Tone & Language

The episode walks a line between investigative rigor and deep empathy. Nicole’s voice is determined, vulnerable, and reflective; Paul Holes brings clinical insight tempered with compassion. Law enforcement speaks with both humility and regret. The overall mood is somber yet hopeful—rooted in the reality of trauma, but ever seeking light and resolution.

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For Listeners

Without resorting to graphic detail, this finale delivers gripping insight into the long-term impact of violent crime, institutional missteps, and the resilience of survivors. It underlines the complexities of justice and healing, while leaving the question of true closure open—anchored by Nicole’s courage as she moves toward her own answers.

Transcript

[Jonathan Van Ness]

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[Nicole Ernest Pate]

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[Peter McDonnell]

Listen to all episodes of Hunting the Boogeyman ad free right now by subscribing to the Binge. Visit the Binge channel on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe at the top of the page or visit getthebinge.com to get access. Wherever you listen the binge feed your true crime obsession the binge.

After Nicole and I had been talking for a couple months, I asked her if her feelings about meeting Roy Waller face to face had changed.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

I don't want to sit down with him as, like, his victim. It's almost an intellectual curiosity, almost like I'm a detective. He's like a black hole, and he's still a black hole. And I don't like that.

[Peter McDonnell]

Nicole still had questions that only Roy Waller could answer. So even from prison, he still held on to control and power. And I think Nicole wants to take it back.

But how is she gonna do that if he won't admit to what he's Done. What if she makes all this effort, builds up all this expectation, and he won't tell her a thing?

I wasn't sure if Nicole would even be allowed to meet Waller behind bars, but I started to look into it. In the meantime, I thought maybe I could help find some of the answers Nicole was seeking. For starters, Nicole still didn't know how her case had finally been linked by DNA to the NorCal series. I thought Paul Holz should be the one to tell her.

So one morning, we knocked on the door of her lovely house in Sonoma County. She was expecting us. And so were her two little dogs.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

You guys are so quiet. What is it today? They usually bark their heads off at everybody.

[Paul Holes]

All right, come on in.

[Peter McDonnell]

Would you like any water From Sony Music Entertainment? And perfect Cadence. You're listening to the finale of Hunting the Boogeyman. I'm Peter McDonnell. This is episode six, Answers.

Paul. Nicole and I sat in the dining room of Nicole's home, and for the first time, he told her how he got involved in her case.

[Paul Holes]

I was working for the Contra Costa County Sheriff's Crime Lab, and then ultimately Detective Caleb Help. He and I collaborated, and it was like, well, Rohnert park, they have DNA in their case. We need to see is that related or not. And I said, my lab will do the DNA work. It was to specifically to generate a DNA profile and see if your attack was related to these other unsolved killers cases.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

They'd never done that before.

[Paul Holes]

They hadn't pursued the DNA at that point. And so is that news to you?

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Paul Holes]

And I know Lelt was constantly harassing them. And so eventually. So Lelt brought that evidence to me, to my lab.

When Frank formally. The DNA from your case was linked to the NorCal Rapist series.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

So what you're saying is that not only were you aware, but Rohnert park was aware in 2002 that the case that they had in their jurisdiction in 1991 was a serial rapist that you've identified.

[Paul Holes]

They should have been aware. Now, I can't say for certain that there were, but I don't know how they wouldn't be.

[Peter McDonnell]

Wow.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

Not one person bothered to tell me until 2006.

[Peter McDonnell]

I wanted the Roanord Park Department of Public Safety to have a chance to respond to what Nicole had told me about her interview with the two detectives, the DNA testing, and the way they talked about her case in the newspaper. So I reached out to the Chief of Police, Tim Mattis. Chief Mattis had joined the department at the end of 2018, just a few months after Roy Waller was caught. Mattis knew about the Norgal rapist series, but he didn't know about Nicole's case in particular. I filled him in on what Nicole had told me and emailed him a copy of the newspaper article from 1992, the one where Ronald park questioned Nicole's credibility and said there are some parts of her story that were hard to believe. Then Chief Mattis and I hopped on the phone. I first asked him about the article.

[Chief Tim Mattis]

That was unfortunate. I don't know of any investigative class I've ever been to. Statements like that would have ever been given to a reporter to doubt a victim. Right. Our job is to be advocates for the victim, and the facts of the case will, in the end, lead where it needs to go. But to question the victim's credibility like that was. That's nothing I've ever done and nothing I would ever support.

[Peter McDonnell]

I also asked him about when Officer Diane told Nicole that her account of the rape sounded like a movie. Remember how I was told that the transcript of that interview couldn't be found? Well, Chief Mattis did some digging of his own.

[Chief Tim Mattis]

I can't find the transcript of that interview, and so I couldn't find where that, like, that statement was made regarding the. You know, this sounds like it came out of a movie. It's not the approach that any department ever worked in. Our job is to investigate the crimes and take care of our victims, not doubt them.

[Peter McDonnell]

That was nice to hear. But what Chief Mattis said about following the facts reminded me of something that had worried me since I began covering this story. Had Roanoke Park's doubt of Nicole impacted the rigor with which they investigated her case? Put plainly, did Waller commit more rapes because they didn't believe Nicole? I asked Chief Mattis.

[Chief Tim Mattis]

When I pulled this case to review it a couple days ago. After we talked, I was reading it from a let's find out what we did wrong in this case. And I wasn't seeing it. They didn't investigate it like they doubted her. They went after every lead they could and exhausted it.

[Peter McDonnell]

Chief Mattis said it does not appear to him that there was a missed opportunity to find Roy Waller sooner.

[Chief Tim Mattis]

I didn't see anywhere where I thought, oh, if you'd have done this, you'd have probably caught him. If all of them had been done in Rohnert park, it might have been different, but they were all over the place. So I'm so thankful that, you know, DNA came along and we were able to get enough evidence at the scene in 91. That helped.

[Jonathan Van Ness]

Later.

[Peter McDonnell]

I think doubt may have played a role in one big missed opportunity.

As chief Mattis pointed out, the rapist attacked across such a huge region that it was almost impossible for any one jurisdiction to solve the series. So linking the cases was essential. And the first opportunity to do so, at least through MO Was six months after Nicole was attacked, when that similar rape occurred in the town of Sonoma. What if, instead of doubting Nicole in the newspaper, Ronald park had confidently come forward and said, yes, we believe this victim, and we believe there's a serial rapist on the loose in northern California?

When chief Mattis and I first talked, he said he'd just read Nicole's police report for the first time, and he was surprised by what an absolutely phenomenal witness she was. It felt like we'd come full circle that after all these years, the head of the Roanoke park police department was now seeing what makes Nicole unique.

[Chief Tim Mattis]

Victims of sexual assault, they will. They just go to a different place in their mind while this is happening to them. Right. I got the feeling in reading her statement that she. She realized, I can't do anything physically right now to stop this, but I can surely use my other senses. I can concentrate and just try to remember everything that's happening to me. She said, I'm gonna win in the long run on this. You may have me right now.

[Jonathan Van Ness]

But.

[Chief Tim Mattis]

At some point, I'm gonna win. And she really concentrated on focusing on the moment and staying in the moment. And just the detail she was able to give was incredible. In reading that, I was like, how did she do this? We should be celebrating the fact that we've got an amazing witness here.

[Peter McDonnell]

For a long time, Nicole told me her anger about what happened with the Rohnert park police had pulled her focus away from the rape itself. But when she learned that her case was part of the series, her focus turned to catching him. And she wanted to understand how someone could become such a monster. I figured Paul holes might be the one with answers to those questions. After all, Paul's the guy whose parents gave him a book about sexual predators as a 25th birthday gift. For his whole career, Paul has been thinking about why and how people like Waller become boogeymen.

Paul started off with a bit of a story. He said, imagine it's nighttime, and you're walking alone in a nice neighborhood when you suddenly decide to step off the sidewalk and go through someone's gate into their yard. How would that feel?

[Paul Holes]

You get a little bit uncomfortable because in our society, it's like, well, that's that person's property. Now imagine being a Peeping Tom, where not only you're walking onto their property, you're looking inside their house.

[Peter McDonnell]

For Waller, Paul said that part was probably thrilling. The next step was to go inside the person's house when nobody's home. That was the next social barrier. And only certain people, people like Waller, would cross it.

[Paul Holes]

There's like video surveillance videos of offenders that have broken into a house while residents are asleep. And the vendor will just stand at the foot of the bed and watch them. That is a person that is fantasizing about taking that next step and going hands on. Well, when somebody is breaking into a house and sexually assaulting, well, they likely have hundreds of burglaries in their past. I'm pretty sure this is NorCal Rapist Waller. He is now, you know, getting off of being inside this woman's residence. He's probably breaking into homes during his teenage years and he's, you know, just starts ramping up.

Sexual assaults are so under reported. There is a chance that in between some of these cases, he's got other victims that have just never been typed.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

He has to. I can't imagine you don't just stop doing that.

[Paul Holes]

And you do see, you know, offenders will do cases in clusters. Sometimes you'll see an uptick in attacks when work is getting stressful or they get fired.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

Well, he had been fired right before me.

[Peter McDonnell]

That's true. And at the time, he had two children with different mothers. One was a newborn. Waller remained unemployed for the rest of 1991, which overlaps with the rape in Sonoma, the one Nicole noticed in the newspaper. It's never been proven to be Roy Waller, but the MO Was identical. Then in February, the day before Valentine's Day, Waller attacked a woman in Vallejo. That's two, maybe three rapes in nine months, all while unemployed. A few months later, he got his job at UC Berkeley. Nicole also wonders how Roy Waller found her. The general assumption has been that he saw her ad in the newspaper for a roommate. But that doesn't explain how he knew she'd had an expensive video camera in her house just a few weeks earlier. A video camera that she no longer had when she posted the newspaper ad. When Waller called Nicole pretending to be Bob Smith, he probably got her phone number from the newspaper. But he may have begun stalking her weeks before that.

[Paul Holes]

His agitation about the camera is interesting because I'm not thinking that the agitation is. Well, he just lost out on Stealing this very valuable camera.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

I don't either.

I think, and I will go to my grave thinking this. I think he wanted to record the act.

[Paul Holes]

Oh, sure.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

And that he was pissed that he couldn't. And so I think that's what really got him angry, is that it wasn't there. But it's interesting because he did steal my. He stole my regular camera. And he took a picture of the top of his head with his hair. You could see his hair. You could tell something had been on it. Took a picture of the top of his hair, took the film out, left it on my coffee table and took the camera.

[Paul Holes]

And, I mean, there's definitely a voyeur type of aspect to him. I would not put it past him to have left a little message. I think when he was inside your house and he saw that camera, he may have left a message on that camera.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

Oh, I didn't even go there.

[Paul Holes]

I think he could have sat there and filmed himself. You know, that's part of his fantasy, is he's. He's left you a message and now that's now. And now it's gone.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

Now the. Oh, God. I never even thought about that.

[Peter McDonnell]

That is really creepy.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah. No, that's how these guys think.

[Peter McDonnell]

Which raised another question. Where did Waller's MO Come from?

Nicole had told the detectives from Rohnert park that Waller's crime seemed scripted and they took that in the wrong direction. But what she meant was that Waller's every action seemed practiced.

[Paul Holes]

You mentioned you think he's going off of a script. Yes, he is. He has developed a fantasy. He very well could have seen something that really kind of just turned him on.

[Peter McDonnell]

That reminded me a few days earlier when Paul and I drove through the East Bay along I 80 toward Florida, Vallejo, he brought up the Zodiac Killer, who has famously never been found. In the late 1960s, Zodiac killed five or more people preying on couples.

[Paul Holes]

You know, Vallejo is Zodiac's stomping grounds, right?

[Peter McDonnell]

Yes. There was that murder at Lake Berryessa, right?

[Paul Holes]

Yep. So that's.

[Jonathan Van Ness]

That's.

[Paul Holes]

That was his third case.

[Peter McDonnell]

In 1969, the Zodiac Killer, wearing a mask and a weird costume, approached a young couple having a picnic near the lake. He threw bindings to the woman and had her tie up the man. Then the Zodiac Killer tied up the woman and stabbed both of them. Only the man survived.

[Paul Holes]

I've wondered if that attack inspired Golden State killer with his M.O. and how he approached his couples.

[Peter McDonnell]

Interesting. Learning from the serial killer who came before him.

[Paul Holes]

And that's what they do, they pay attention.

[Peter McDonnell]

Nicole told me that when she heard that the Golden State Killer was caught, her first reaction was, huh, Maybe he has a son who became the NorCal Rapist. It was kind of a joke, but the idea was, like Paul said, these predators learned from the ones who came before them. And it fits. In Roy Waller's case.

He was born in 1960 and was a teenager in Lake county when Joseph D', Angelo, aka the Golden State Killer, was making headlines just 90 minutes south, breaking into homes wearing a mask and binding and raping women. Lake county is also just north of Lake Berryessa, a key location in Zodiac. Lower. So it's highly possible that Waller based part of his M.O. off of these two serial killers.

One of the biggest unsolved mysteries of Nicole's case is the terrifying phone call she got in 1992. It was a year after the attack, and she'd just gotten married.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

He was a big guy. He was, you know, big Norwegian dude. I thought, this guy can protect me. He can protect me from anyone.

[Peter McDonnell]

They had just moved into a new house in Petaluma when she got the phone call.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

And he said, well, I see you've moved. And I said, who is this? And he said, where's that little green robe?

[Peter McDonnell]

You might remember that the Petaluma police found the caller. He was a local guy who'd been in the military. In everyone's mind, including Paul's, the guy we're calling, Carl G. Was suspect number one. But of course, Carl was eventually eliminated with DNA.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

It was like, how is this not him?

[Peter McDonnell]

What is interesting about the Carl phone call as well is that behaviorally, it seems to fit what Waller would do, right?

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

Yes. Well, Roy Waller called the Halloween victim, like, a month later at her job.

[Peter McDonnell]

Yes. If Carl didn't do it, how does he know about the green rope? Maybe you remember this? I called every number I could find for Carl G. And got nothing. So I emailed him. I wasn't sure if I had the right address, but eventually he emailed me back and he gave me his correct phone number.

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[Nicole Ernest Pate]

Close your eyes.

[Peter McDonnell]

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[Nicole Ernest Pate]

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[Chief Tim Mattis]

Okay, can you hear me now, sir? Yes, I can hear you now.

[Peter McDonnell]

There we go.

[Chief Tim Mattis]

Okay, the reason I'm calling is that Nicole knows and I know that you're not. You're not the NorCal Rapist. But you did make that phone call and you did know that detail. That robe. And for over 35 years now, that has been a mystery to her that she would like to resolve. Yeah.

Here'S.

Here's a. Just as honest as I can be.

Is that my memory of those days is really not great because.

I was just pretty regularly under the influence of something I can explain to you. My mouth. Oh, with regard to phone calls that I made in very addictive, compulsive, disgusting ways. Okay.

It was luck.

It was sheer luck. There was a way that I had of manipulating conversations on the phone, much like a tarot card reader.

That people would give up information that they didn't realize they were giving up.

I believe I met Nicole at Red Lion Hotel and thought that she was an attractive person. And because of the way I sit in my own struggles, would not never have had a real chance at. So I would fantasize. Okay.

So you're saying you. You met Nicole at the Red lion, was able to ascertain her name and decided to call her to.

Take your fantasy just one step further, and the robe was pure coincidence?

If I'm remembering it correctly. It's about all I can give you.

[Peter McDonnell]

When we hung up, I puzzled over Carl's claim that he'd intuited, like a psychic, that not only did Nicole have a green robe, but that the robe was frighteningly significant. It was the only thing she was wearing when the rapist attacked. Could anyone really intuit a detail like that from a 30 second phone call?

That detail cast Carl as the rapist. So much so that not only did Nicole believe it, but so did Paul Holes, Avis Beery and Kayla Pelt. Only when Carl's DNA didn't match were they certain it wasn't him. Nicole told me she's never been to the Red Lion Hotel where Carl claims he met her. He may not remember how he came across her, or he may not want to tell me, But I don't think he found out about the robe through some psychic phenomena. What if Roy Waller told him about it? So I emailed Carl a photo of Waller circa 1991, and asked, do you know who this is? Carl wrote me back and said unfortunately, yes. But he couldn't remember where he'd met him. Maybe at a bar in Rohnert park, he said. So the green robe is still a mystery. One thing is clear to me, though. Even though Carl broke some of the social barriers Paul talked about, he never became a boogeyman like Roy Waller. Carl's now married with kids, and he admitted to me that he made a lot of mistakes. This was one of them. But he's trying to atone.

Waller will live in a jail cell until he dies. He doesn't get a second chance. And in prison hierarchies, rapists are near the bottom. Will he die denying what he's done? Or can he find the courage to admit it and show remorse? And give Nicole and maybe others the answers they're looking for.

It turns out Nicole's interest in meeting with Waller isn't an anomaly. 30 states offer programs to facilitate meetings between victims and offenders, including California. The victim has to initiate it, and the offender has to agree to it. They say it can help victims of violent crimes, including murder and sexual assault, heal. But they caution against it in cases where the offender acted in a sadistic way, like Waller did. I sent information about the program to Nicole, and she brought it up with Paul.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

I'm just more curious.

[Paul Holes]

I can tell you're a very strong person, but I can also see what he's going to try to do is he's going to try to push your buttons.

And that might provide you some insight in terms of facts of the case that you're looking to get answered. But you may walk away and he's pushed a button where you just like, oh, shit.

[Jonathan Van Ness]

Yeah.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

Damn it. He got me.

[Paul Holes]

There's a reason why some of these convicted predators, you know, they're never shown photos of their victims because they feed.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

Off of that, right?

[Paul Holes]

And him sitting across the table from you could just be a big turn on.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

Because his fantasies never stop. They never go away.

[Paul Holes]

I always say you have to know how this type of offender identifies. So, like btk, Dennis Rader.

[Peter McDonnell]

Dennis Rader, AKA btk, meaning bind, torture, kill, is a serial killer from Kansas who killed at least 10 people. He was a churchgoer, a boy scout leader, and was married with two children.

[Paul Holes]

When he was arrested, he was going, that's all a facade. I'm btk. He identified as the predator with Waller. How does he identify?

[Peter McDonnell]

While Waller was in jail awaiting sentencing, he occasionally talked with his family members on the phone. Nicole had heard about some of these calls.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

There was a lot of crying and sobbing. It's not me. How are they doing this to me? I'm being railroaded.

[Peter McDonnell]

Waller wasn't willing to admit that he was a rapist.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

The police planted the evidence. I can't believe this. Oh, my God. You know?

[Peter McDonnell]

So then if he's admitting to you, here's how I did it, then he's also admitting that he lied to his family and his daughter on all those phone calls from prison.

I found some trouble transcripts of Waller's phone calls from prison to his wife. He acts like an innocent man caught in the web of a corrupt system. At the end of these calls, before saying goodbye, he'd say something really disturbing. He'd say, be careful, it's nighttime. Check the windows. Make sure all the doors are locked. It's chilling to read his words. He was lying to his wife by acting like she should be careful of predators like the NorCal Rapist as if it wasn't him.

I've since called some of Waller's family members. One of them hung up on me three times. Another doesn't want to discuss it. But a third talked with me briefly under the condition that I not use their name because they're afraid of some of the family members who believe he's innocent.

The person I spoke with has known Waller for a long time. They told me he presented as normal, but that he could be socially awkward, he could be cringy in a sexual way and there was just something about him. This person couldn't put a finger on it. It was off. But they never thought he was a serial rapist.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

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[Peter McDonnell]

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When Nicole told me she wanted to meet Roy Waller, I reached out to the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation for a referral to a facilitator who could tell me how these victim offender meetings work. They told me to call one of their favorite facilitators, Rebecca Weicker, a co founder of a not for profit group called MEND Collaborative which handles these victim offender dialogues. Rebecca has been doing this work for 10 years. I asked her how does the process work?

[Rebecca Weicker]

So there's probably anywhere from 4 to 9 to 12 months of preparation. We talk with the incarcerated person, we want to understand their insight into why they committed their crime. And with the survivor, we talk with them about what their experience has been and what they are hoping to get out of the dialogue. And this is a voluntary and confidential process. I've seen that people come with questions that have been plaguing them for decades and get answers. And then for the incarcerated person, they get to apologize, they get to take responsibility, they get to show up as a more than their crime as a full human being.

[Peter McDonnell]

I asked Rebecca what if a victim wanted to meet an offender who was found guilty but denied committing the crimes. And I didn't mean a situation where there was actual doubt, as in a wrongful conviction case, but rather someone in outright denial of the facts.

[Rebecca Weicker]

It's rare that somebody would say, I didn't do it. And it's even more rare that they would say, I didn't do it. And I'll still participate in a process where I'm going to engage with a survivor in some way. Those are not the typical cases that we get. I'll just say.

[Peter McDonnell]

Roy Waller's crimes are atypical, his denial is atypical, and his remorse, as far as anyone can tell, is non existent. What Nicole wants from him, he may not be willing to give, but he might be willing to meet with her. The California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation has connected Nicole with a facilitator. It might even be Rebecca. But the rest of Nicole's journey to talk with Waller will be a private one. It could take months. It could also never happen. But if it does, I hope that Nicole gets the answers she's looking for. I won't be there for that part, but when I think of Nicole facing Waller, I see her getting answers and reclaiming control. It's a light on the horizon, a north star. And she's moving toward it.

Right after the trial in 2020, Nicole got a surprising email from a woman named Mo Melissa. When Roy Waller was arrested, investigators had knocked on Melissa's front door in Rohnert park and asked to come inside and measure her rooms for an exhibit. At his trial, Melissa had no idea that her townhome was where the Norcal rapist committed one of his attacks. When she saw Nicole on the news, she put two and two together. Melissa emailed Nicole that if she ever wanted to come over to cleanse the place of negative energy, she was welcome to. Recently, Nicole decided it was time. So on a sunny day, we drove to Rohnert park to her old townhome.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

Yep, this all looks exactly the same as it used to. So where she's parked is where I parked my car.

[Peter McDonnell]

She has a gate opening for you. Yep.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

So that was what I used as my front door.

My goodness.

[Chief Tim Mattis]

Here we are.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

Here we are.

The memories looks exactly the same.

[Peter McDonnell]

We walked through the gate and into Melissa's patio, and there she was.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

How are you? It's so nice to meet you. Hi. Oh, my goodness. How are you? It's so nice to meet you. Oh, it's so pretty back here.

[Paul Holes]

Thank you.

[Peter McDonnell]

Nicole and Melissa hugged, and then she led us inside.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

I can't wait to see what you've done with the place. Is this the same door? Yeah, this is the. Well, no, I redid all the windows. Oh, you did? Okay.

[Peter McDonnell]

Nicole went right into this small living room.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

This is where my couch was. Yeah. That's where my TV was.

[Jonathan Van Ness]

Yeah. Yes.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

Oh, do you mind if I go upstairs?

Sure. That actually be great if I can.

This would probably be a good place for me. Sorry, I'm having a. This has always been the hardest part. These stairs.

[Peter McDonnell]

Nicole stopped halfway up the stairs, started to come back down, stopped again, and then tried to go back up.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

I don't know why the stairs are a problem for me.

I do know why the stairs are a problem for me.

The stairs are. When I first realized that I was in real trouble, it wasn't until I was on the stairs. The stairs are always a big problem. Were always a big problem for me.

[Jonathan Van Ness]

Sorry.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

Well, actually, water would be great. Thank you.

[Peter McDonnell]

Nicole had come so far, and yet being in this house again, climbing the stairs to the bedroom, it was understandable that she struggled, but she didn't want to leave.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

I didn't expect that to happen at all. That doesn't normally happen, though, so. Been 30 some odd years. So I think saging is a good idea.

How do we do this thing again?

[Peter McDonnell]

It's called smudging.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

Smudging?

[Peter McDonnell]

Smudging, I read, is a spiritual ritual of indigenous peoples in North America. It's meant to purify and cleanse a place of negative energy. I've never done it. Melissa and Nicole hadn't either. But this seemed like the right place to try it. Nicole had come down and we were standing in the kitchen. She picked up a bundle of sage. You just light the end. You wait for the smoke to start generating. Then you blow it out. And you want to keep it over the bowl.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

Do we each do our own or do we do one?

[Chief Tim Mattis]

I'll give you another bowl.

[Peter McDonnell]

Okay.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

And we light the whole thing until it starts smoking?

[Jonathan Van Ness]

Yeah, maybe.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

Oh, it smells good.

And then we start walking around.

[Peter McDonnell]

Right.

Melissa opened all the windows and Nicole walked to the corners of the rooms downstairs and fanned the smoke. It rose, pooled, and flowed outside.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

Spent a good amount of time where the couch was.

[Peter McDonnell]

Then Nicole climbed the stairs again and waved the smoke in front of her.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

You don't mind if I go in your room?

Didn't expect that.

[Peter McDonnell]

This.

[Nicole Ernest Pate]

I didn't expect this.

I want the stairwell to go away.

[Peter McDonnell]

Unlock all episodes of Hunting the Boogeyman ad free right now by subscribing to the Binge Podcast channel. Not only will you immediately unlock all episodes of this show, but you'll get binge access to an entire network of other great true crime and investigative podcasts, all ad free. Plus, on the first of every month, subscribers get a binge drop of a brand new series that's all episodes all at once. Search for the binge on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe at the top of the page, not on apple. Head to getthebinge.com to get access wherever you listen.

Hunting the Boogeyman is an original production of Sony Music Entertainment and Perfect Cadence. It's hosted and reported by me, Peter McDonnell from Perfect Cadence. I'm the Executive Producer from Sony Music Entertainment. The executive producers are Catherine St. Louis and Jonathan Hirsch. The series was sound, designed and mixed by Matt Gergle. We used music from Audio Network. The show's production manager was Sammy Allison. Our lawyer is Allison Sherry. Special thanks to Steve Ackerman, Emily Rasik and Jamie Myers. And extra special thanks to Nicole Ernest Pate for all her candid storytelling. Thanks also to Paul Holz, Avis Beery, Chris Orr, Keith Hill, Carlos Pate, Kay Lapelt, Kirk Campbell, Monica Tchaikowski, Chief Tim Mattis and Melissa. If you enjoyed this podcast, please leave a review. It's the best way to support us. Thank you for listening. Foreign.

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