The Arsonist Next Door | 3: The Big Scoop

Summary

Summary of "The Binge Crimes: The Arsonist Next Door"
Episode 3: "The Big Scoop"
Host: Sony Music Entertainment
Reporter: Sam Anderson
Release Date: May 15, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 3 of "The Binge Crimes: The Arsonist Next Door," titled "The Big Scoop," reporter Sam Anderson delves deeper into the perplexing arson spree that plagued Phoenix in the early 2000s. This episode centers on James Hibbert, a young reporter from the Phoenix New Times, who becomes entangled in the investigation of a radical group claiming responsibility for a series of house fires targeting environmentally sensitive areas.

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The Phoenix New Times and James Hibbert

[01:00] Sam Anderson introduces James Hibbert, a 28-year-old reporter at the Phoenix New Times, an alternative weekly newspaper known for its liberal stance and counterculture reporting. The New Times serves as a stark contrast to Phoenix’s conservative mainstream daily, the Arizona Republic.

James Hibbert describes the newsroom culture as "a liberal go fuck yourself. That was the vibe," highlighting the paper's provocative and rebellious nature ([03:21]).

Early in his career, James covers eclectic and controversial topics, from the "world's loudest car radio convention" to "scandals in the Scottsdale prostitution scene" ([04:05]). His diverse reporting style sets the stage for his involvement in the arson investigation.

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The Arson Spree

[05:04] By early 2001, Phoenix is terrorized by a series of arsons targeting houses near a mountain preserve. A multi-agency task force comprising 40 personnel with millions of dollars in resources conducts extensive surveillance, yet the fires continue unabated. The only clues are taunting notes signed by the Coalition to Save the Preserves (CSP), echoing their ideological stance against urban sprawl.

Despite heavy law enforcement efforts, the arsonists remain elusive, prompting the New Times to seek a unique angle on the story.

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The Big Scoop: A New Angle

[05:15] The editors at the New Times decide to explore the public sentiment towards the arsonists, speculating that CSP’s actions may resonate with certain segments of the community. They assign James Hibbert, the paper's resident counterculture reporter, to investigate how Phoenix residents truly feel about the arson spree.

Facing the formidable editor Mike Lacey, described by James as "the scariest editor I ever knew" with "Hold Fast tattooed on his knuckles" ([05:52]), James feels both apprehensive and obligated to take on the assignment.

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Analyzing Public Sentiment

James embarks on his investigation, uncovering widespread frustration with urban development and the rapid expansion of Phoenix. He discovers that Arizona developers have significantly outspent opposition groups—five to one—to dismantle bills intended to cap city growth ([06:01]).

In his research, James draws parallels between CSP and the Earth Liberation Front (ELF), another group employing arson as a protest against urban sprawl across the United States. Both organizations target unfinished luxury homes encroaching on environmentally sensitive areas, raising questions about whether CSP and ELF might be interconnected.

Despite the nonviolent rhetoric of both groups, James notes the dangerous reality lurking behind their actions: "But that's down to pure luck. It's a well-rounded article that gives fair play to all sides of the debate" ([07:19]). He provocatively states, "The meticulously executed attacks, impassioned ideological messages, and comically baffled collection of law enforcement officials are almost enough to make you root for the arsonist" ([07:19]), while clarifying his disapproval of arson as a method of protest ([07:30]–[07:49]).

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The CSP Letter and Breaking the Rules

[08:15] Following the publication of his article titled "Burn Baby Burn" on January 11, 2001, the New Times receives a direct letter from CSP. Unlike previous letters left at arson sites, this letter is addressed specifically to James, referencing his article and containing the enigmatic sign-off: "Off in like a ghost, out like a ghost. Happy hunting" ([01:39]–[02:16]).

The New Times seizes this opportunity, deciding to engage directly with the arsonist to secure an exclusive interview, bypassing standard journalistic protocols of involving the police.

James Hibbert explains, "They saw an opportunity to get unprecedented insight into these fires, which was inherently newsworthy" ([08:55]), despite the absence of a return address on the letter.

To facilitate communication, James places his office phone number in the upcoming issue of the New Times alongside the CSP's favored line "Thou shall not," a message only intended for the CSP member to understand. This move proves risky as it draws unwanted attention.

[09:07] After the newspaper's issue hits the stands, calls begin to flood in. Initially dismissing them as typographical errors, James soon receives a call from the arsonist, who casually fits the profile of a typical office worker yet reveals insider information about CSP's activities, including the formation of a new North Phoenix preserve unit ([10:08]–[11:10]).

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The Exclusive Interview

[12:43] James meets the supposed arsonist at Patriot Square Park, a seemingly unlikely location for a clandestine meeting. Amidst a busy downtown setting with media presence and law enforcement, James anticipates drama but is met with an unexpected demeanor from his source.

James Hibbert recounts, "He was very energetic, almost wired" and reveals the arsonist's tactics: choosing calm nights, praying before fires, and avoiding direct use of the term "arson," instead referring to them as "activities" ([17:42]–[17:56]).

During the interview, the arsonist acknowledges the media attention as part of his strategy, stating, "you just try to provide context and trust the reader" ([16:55]–[20:04]). James captures the essence of the arsonist's motives, perceiving a complex blend of ideological fervor and personal thrill-seeking.

James decides to publish the story, incorporating a sidebar that transparently outlines confirmed facts and the uncertainties surrounding the arsonist's claims. He aims to present a balanced narrative, despite knowing the source may be unreliable.

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Community and Law Enforcement Reactions

[24:18]–[27:23] Upon publication, the article shocks the Phoenix community. Local residents like Warren Jerrems and his friend Mark reflect on the disbelief and personal impact the news has on their lives, especially when real identities seemingly align with their acquaintances.

Law enforcement officials, including Lieutenant Rob Handy and Deputy Fire Chief Bob Kahn, express frustration and anger towards the New Times for sensationalizing the criminal. They argue that by giving CSP a platform, the newspaper is inadvertently aiding their adversaries.

Rob Handy criticizes the New Times' approach, stating, "They're celebrating and sensationalizing a criminal" ([28:34]–[28:42]), while Deputy Fire Chief Bob Kahn decries the irresponsible journalism that undermines their investigative efforts ([27:20]–[27:31]).

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Ethical Dilemmas and Pressure

As the investigation intensifies, the Phoenix Police Department pressures James to cooperate in capturing CSP members. They urge him to arrange another interview or facilitate a conversation that could lead to the arsonist's identification.

James faces a significant moral quandary: balancing journalistic integrity and the safety of the community with the ethical duty to protect his confidential source. The detectives offer a substantial reward of $76,000, tempting him with both financial gain and the allure of being hailed as a hero ([35:33]–[36:19]).

James grapples with the potential consequences of either complying or refusing the authorities' demands. His first job's naivety clashes with the harsh realities of criminal investigations, leading to sleepless nights and intense internal conflict.

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Conclusion and Cliffhanger

By the episode's end, James remains at a crossroads, contemplating whether to succumb to the authorities' pressure or uphold his journalistic principles. The situation underscores the complexities reporters face when their pursuit of truth intersects with law enforcement's quest for justice.

The episode concludes with a tense anticipation of James's impending decision, setting the stage for the next installment of the series.

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Notable Quotes

• James Hibbert on Newsroom Culture:
  "We're A liberal go fuck yourself. That was the vibe."
  [03:21]

• James Hibbert on Arsonist's Tactics:
  "If your argument requires you to blow up something to make your point, how good is your argument really?"
  [07:34]

• James Hibbert Reflecting on the Interview:
  "In like a ghost, out like a ghost, another publicity. Mission accomplished."
  [19:49]

• Lieutenant Rob Handy on New Times' Reporting:
  "We're trying to figure out what's coming. Someone is committing a crime, don't promote them in the media."
  [22:10]–[22:12]

• Deputy Fire Chief Bob Kahn on Sensationalism:
  "How do you do that? That guy talked to the press and he thinks it's a joke. And there were families that were suffering."
  [27:31]–[27:47]

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Key Takeaways

• Investigative Journalism Risks: James Hibbert's pursuit of an exclusive interview with a suspected arsonist demonstrates the fine line journalists walk between uncovering truths and becoming entangled in criminal investigations.

• Media Influence on Criminal Behavior: The episode highlights how media coverage can inadvertently amplify or provide platforms for criminal activities, complicating law enforcement efforts.

• Ethical Dilemmas: Reporters may face challenging decisions when balancing the public's right to know against the potential consequences of their reporting on ongoing criminal cases.

• Community Impact: Sensational journalism can have profound effects on local communities, stirring fear, anger, and distrust among residents and officials alike.

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Reflection

"The Big Scoop" intricately weaves the narrative of a young reporter navigating the treacherous waters of investigative journalism amidst a citywide crisis. It underscores the potent influence of the media in shaping public perception and the ethical responsibilities inherent in reporting sensitive stories.

As James Hibbert stands on the precipice of a career-defining decision, listeners are left pondering the broader implications of media involvement in criminal investigations and the personal toll such high-stakes journalism can exact on individuals.

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Transcript

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[Sam Anderson]

Priceline Listen to all episodes of the Arsonist Next Door ad free right now by subscribing to the binge. Visit the Binge channel on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe at the top of the page or visit getthebinge.com to get access. Wherever you listen the binge feed your true crime obsession. The Binge.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Novel.

[Sam Anderson]

In January of 2001, James Hibbert is 28 years old, a reporter at the Phoenix New Times, an alternative weekly newspaper. He's sitting in a conference room attached to a bustling newsroom, surrounded by editors and senior staff.

[James Hibbert]

If you're picturing something like from a movie where everyone kind of gathers in an office and they shut the door and hunker over this letter like it's from the Zodiac Killer, that's pretty much what it was like.

[Sam Anderson]

They're crowded around a table reading a letter.

[James Hibbert]

At the top of the letter was Thou shall not desecrate God's creation.

[Sam Anderson]

It's the same greeting that csp, the Coalition to Save the Preserves, has used to open some of their threatening letters left at the arson sites, but this one is addressed directly to James, and.

[James Hibbert]

In the letter he talked about trying to call the New Times after reading Burn Baby Burn and he couldn't get through.

[Sam Anderson]

James recently published an article about the arsons with the headline Burn Baby Burn. And it's caught the attention of csp. The letter ends with a peculiar sign.

[James Hibbert]

Off in like a ghost, out like a ghost. Happy hunting. It felt a bit unreal.

[Sam Anderson]

James Boss Outlines Their Next Mission let's.

[James Hibbert]

Get this motherfucker on the phone From.

[Sam Anderson]

Sony Music Entertainment and Novel, I'm Sam Anderson. You're listening to the Arsonist next door. Episode 3 the Big Scoop to understand how James Hibberd found himself in that conference room surrounded by editors holding a letter from a self avowed arsonist group, you have to understand a little bit about the Phoenix New Times and what it was like to work there.

[James Hibbert]

We're A liberal go fuck yourself. That was the vibe.

[Sam Anderson]

That's how James describes the culture of the paper. In the early 2000s, it was a.

[James Hibbert]

Bit of a rabble rousing, controversial paper. It was like this counterweight to the city's conservative daily paper, the Arizona Republic.

[Sam Anderson]

It was popular with the more left leaning types in Phoenix.

[James Hibbert]

I remember being at a party when I first moved there and I was trying to make friends. And it struck my conversation with this guy. And when he found out where I worked, he was like, oh, that's a very liberal publication. And then turned around, like, walked away.

[Sam Anderson]

It's his first job as a reporter and he's having a blast. He's on the counterculture beat.

[James Hibbert]

I would cover like the world's loudest car radio convention or profile a 14 year old kid who was in a street gang. Or I would do a story on the Scottsdale prostitution scene and then do a story about this subculture where people were suspending themselves from meat hooks.

[Sam Anderson]

Just as James is getting into the flow of his new job, the arson spree hits the headlines.

[James Hibbert]

This guy was public enemy number one. He was like the roadrunner zipping around the Arizona desert.

[Sam Anderson]

By this time, there's a 40 person multi agency task force with millions of dollars at their disposal. They're conducting mass surveillance. The preserves are crawling with undercover agents, and yet these houses are still going up in flames. And the only evidence they've got are a couple of notes just taunting them.

[James Hibbert]

The arsonists had already been covered, like in the daily paper and the other publications a ton.

[Sam Anderson]

Everyone is reporting the story, but the New Times editors are looking to stir things up with a different angle. And that angle is that maybe these CSP guys have a point.

[James Hibbert]

The editors had the idea of, let's do a story about how some people were rooting for this guy like a folk hero. Something different than the coverage that had been out there.

[Sam Anderson]

And who better to take that task on than their resident counterculture reporter, James Hibbert?

[James Hibbert]

I remember being only mildly interested, but.

[Sam Anderson]

That'S kind of irrelevant because if he doesn't write it, he'll have to contend with chief editor Mike Lacey.

[James Hibbert]

This guy was the scariest editor I ever knew.

[Sam Anderson]

To paint you a picture. Lacey's got Hold Fast tattooed on his knuckles.

[James Hibbert]

When this guy looked at you with his, like icy blue eyes, you're like, has this guy ever killed somebody and gotten away with it? Maybe.

[Sam Anderson]

So whether James likes it or not, he's got this new assignment. Go forth and find out how the city of Phoenix really feels about the arson spree. James quickly discovers that the arsonist isn't the only one who's pissed off about urban sprawl. Rival newspaper the Arizona Republic used the phrase an acre an hour to describe how fast the city was eating the desert. A lot of the people James talks to are angry about it. He digs up some numbers showing how Arizona developers outspent their opponents five to one to destroy a bill that would have capped growth. And he references the members of Earth Liberation Front who are using arson to wage a war against sprawl all across America in Indiana, Colorado and New York. The ELF and CSP are both targeting unfinished luxury homes that are encroaching on environmentally sensitive areas. Could they be two parts of the same group? CSP and ELF Both say they are nonviolent, and it's true that no one has died so far. But that's down to pure luck. It's a well rounded article that gives fair play to all sides of the debate. But it does include a few provocative lines, including this one.

[James Hibbert]

The meticulously executed attacks, impassioned ideological messages, and comically baffled collection of law enforcement officials are almost enough to make you root for the arsonist.

[Sam Anderson]

To be clear, James does not support arson.

[James Hibbert]

No, I don't think setting fires is an okay way to protest bourbon sprawl, or really anything for that matter. If your argument requires you to blow up something to make your point, how good is your argument really?

[Sam Anderson]

When the article is published on January 11, 2001, the front page of the New Times is covered with a splashy photo of a mansion going up in flames. The way it's presented seems intended to do one thing, piss off the establishment.

[James Hibbert]

We got a few angry letters, a few angry calls. That wasn't seemingly a big deal until we got the letter from the arsonist.

[Sam Anderson]

A letter signed csp. That's how James finds himself crammed into that conference room of the New Times with a bunch of senior editors brainstorming their next move. The supposed arsonist seems to be a fan of James article.

[James Hibbert]

He said he liked the story. He was complaining about some of the other media coverage.

[Sam Anderson]

What the editor Mike Lacey wants now is for James to get in touch with this letter writer and land an exclusive interview. Now, a lot of news organizations out there, if they got a letter from a purported arsonist, would probably contact the police. But this is no ordinary paper, and the Phoenix New Times is not about to give up the story.

[James Hibbert]

They saw an opportunity to get unprecedented insight into these fires, which was inherently newsworthy. This was for that city at that time, a scoop as big as they came.

[Sam Anderson]

But there's a problem. The letter writer, for obvious reasons, hasn't left a return address, so they have no way to write back. Laci's got a plan for that too.

[James Hibbert]

He came up with the idea of putting my office phone number on the COVID of next week's issue, along with the message to Thou shall not.

[Sam Anderson]

A direct quote from the letter. CSP's favorite line hasn't been released to the public by police or journalists, so the editors figure only the letter writer will understand the message they're sending back.

[James Hibbert]

We ran the message in this little box at the top corner of the COVID.

[Sam Anderson]

The next day, the calls start pouring in. At first it's just random readers curious about why a phone number was printed on the front page.

[James Hibbert]

I would explain it by saying things like, oh, it's just a typo, even though that doesn't make any sense. And then I got the call. He said, I got your message.

[Sam Anderson]

James sits bolt upright in his chair.

[James Hibbert]

That was when I started to realize this is turning into a big deal. It was very weird. He seemed super casual, like just kind of in a good mood and chatty, but also arrogant and high in his own supply. He sounded like a youngish to middle, lower middle age business professional. He sounded like a guy on his lunch hour at an office just chatting about the weather.

[Sam Anderson]

The man on the phone is preoccupied with the media coverage the arson spree is getting. He's concerned about certain assumptions that are being made about the group responsible.

[James Hibbert]

He wanted to set the record straight. And he also said, and this will be important later, that a North Phoenix preserve unit was forming in his group.

[Sam Anderson]

The letter writer insists that the Coalition to Save the Preserves is a group and they're organized enough to have different units.

[James Hibbert]

And then he offered an in person interview.

[Sam Anderson]

Here are the conditions.

[James Hibbert]

Be at Patriot Square park, downtown Phoenix, 11am in two days. No tape recorders, no photographers. Come alone, sit anywhere and read a copy of the Burn Baby Burn story. And then we'll see what happens.

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[Sam Anderson]

Subscribe to the binge to get all episodes of the Arsonist Next Door ad free today and get instant access to over 50 other Jaw Dropping true crime stories. Plus subscribers get a binge drop of a brand new series on the first of every month. Search for the binge channel on Apple Podcasts or head to getthebinge.com to subscribe today it's a beautiful sunny day in downtown Phoenix. James is sitting in a little plaza in Patriot Square park, which is basically the center of downtown. It's full of trees and benches and office workers on their lunch break eating sandwiches and sipping lattes. There's a stage where a band is prepping to play, and right across the street is the Maricopa County Superior Courthouse.

[James Hibbert]

There are cops all over. There are media news trucks parked along the street.

[Sam Anderson]

It's kind of the last place in the world that you'd think an arsonist who's the target of a citywide manhunt would want to meet.

[James Hibbert]

Hermey thought that if he did show up that the cops would swoop in and arrest us both.

[Sam Anderson]

James is sitting on a park bench. In his hands, a copy of his article Burn Baby, Burn.

[James Hibbert]

It's not like I showed up packing a weapon or anything crazy. I just went there, opened the copy of the paper like he asked, and waited.

[Sam Anderson]

Are you scared?

[James Hibbert]

I was more excited than nervous. I was bummed I wouldn't have a tape recorder because I'd have to be writing in longhand and scribbling all the answers.

[Sam Anderson]

But James knows exactly what he wants to find out.

[James Hibbert]

How he was getting away with this and why he was doing this.

[Sam Anderson]

And of course, the biggest question who is this guy? Did the legendary Lacy give you any sage advice before you embarked on this journalistic mission?

[James Hibbert]

No, no. I mean, now that you're mentioning it, they probably should have. Instead of shoving their youngest reporter out into the middle of a park to meet With a narcissist.

[Sam Anderson]

In my first journalism job, I was interviewing elementary school teachers in New Jersey for the teacher of the year award. Can you imagine interviewing a serial arsonist who's basically on his way to becoming the FBI's most wanted? I would be terrified.

[James Hibbert]

There was definitely that heightened feeling and also skeptical that he'd actually show up. All of a sudden, this guy comes up and sits next to me. He's got these, like, big Bono sunglasses on, hat on, tracksuit on.

[Sam Anderson]

It's not exactly the outfit you'd expect from an eco warrior.

[James Hibbert]

You picture somebody who's like, young and scruffy and looks like they're living out of a van.

[Sam Anderson]

This guy is tall, middle aged and athletic.

[James Hibbert]

He was very energetic, almost wired. And he asked whether I had seen the paper that morning.

[Sam Anderson]

In the paper that morning, another arson attack. The eighth fire that CSP has claimed responsibility for, this time in North Phoenix.

[James Hibbert]

Then I remembered that on the phone call, he had teased that a North Phoenix unit of his movement was forming.

[Sam Anderson]

James is shook, but there's still a chance the guy sitting next to him could be a fraud. That's when the man drops some very specific information that only someone who set this latest fire could know.

[James Hibbert]

The guy said, call Rural Metro and ask about the two notes that were left behind that hadn't been reported yet.

[Sam Anderson]

The man is telling James to call the local police precinct and ask about the latest CSP notes left at the scene of last night's fire. Notes that nobody else would know about since they haven't been reported in the news.

[James Hibbert]

And he also said the timing of the fire was not coincidental.

[Sam Anderson]

The arsonist tells James that the Coalition to Save the Preserves got together to discuss meeting with him.

[James Hibbert]

He said, you know, we thought that setting that fire would be a good faith effort to establish our credibility.

[Sam Anderson]

In other words, the group lit this fire to prove to James they were the real deal.

[James Hibbert]

That hit hard. It was like everything swoons for a moment. I didn't really know what to do with it, so I just got to work asking questions instead. He's doing a lot of the talking initially, and he kept using the word they. He said that they're a group of four of them.

[Sam Anderson]

And did you think that this is someone from an environmental radical group?

[James Hibbert]

I remember not being sure.

[Sam Anderson]

The man is eager to convince James that CSP is not out to hurt anyone.

[James Hibbert]

He talked about how he set the fires. He would say details like how he would wait for a calm night with no gusting winds. How they prayed before each Fire how they didn't want firefighters to be hurt.

[Sam Anderson]

This whole thing sounds kind of absurd. Obviously, once a house starts burning, there's no way to control it.

[James Hibbert]

I noticed that he didn't use the word arson. He always called it, like, activities.

[Sam Anderson]

As they continue to talk, the band sitting up on the Patriot park stage begins to play.

[James Hibbert]

He starts, like, grooving and enjoying the music and lecturing. If you don't look suspicious, suspicion isn't drawn to you. He said one of our keys to success is how well we blend in. At one point he said something like, what did they expect for me to carry an Olympic torch? He struck me as arrogant, cocky, and kind of controlling.

[Sam Anderson]

At this point, James is pretty sure the man sitting next to him is either the arsonist or one of them. But there's one more thing he wants to know about.

[James Hibbert]

One question that was important to me was how he feels when he lights these fires. And the reason I wanted to know that is I want to try and get at what's driving all this, really, because he talked about the politics, but I didn't really get the sense that this guy was an eco warrior. It felt more personal. So I asked him how he feels when he lights a fire and he says, there's no thrill. There's some gamesmanship there. But I don't take personal pride in being a criminal. Well, I thought that was bullshit. So near the end of the interview, I circled back and asked the same question again, just a different way. And this time he gave a different answer. He said, fear and anticipation. That's what he feels when he does this. Fear of being observed. And then the anticipation of the media coverage. And it suddenly made the location make sense. He wasn't in Patriot Square despite the police presence. He was there because of made it more risky, more of a thrill.

[Sam Anderson]

James can already imagine the last line of the article he's about to write.

[James Hibbert]

In like a ghost, out like a ghost, another publicity. Mission accomplished, accomplish. It was clear what he was doing. He's addicted to the risk and the media attention. And I want the reader to know that we also knew what he was doing.

[Sam Anderson]

Did you feel played by him at all? Did you feel like you were one of the media puppets that he's trying to manipulate?

[James Hibbert]

No, because we were getting this story out of it.

[Sam Anderson]

James gets a front page scoop, and in the process he's giving CSP exactly the kind of attention thereafter when the man leaves, James has to process what just happened.

[James Hibbert]

I do remember sitting there on that bench after he left and just Feeling the weight of the story. And I was like, you know, I was like the dog who caught the car and the car was on fire, basically.

[Sam Anderson]

After the interview, the real work begins. James editors want to publish immediately.

[James Hibbert]

I was a bit wary because there was still so much we didn't know.

[Sam Anderson]

James is personally convinced that the man on the bench is the real deal. But in the journalism game, that doesn't quite cut it.

[James Hibbert]

The first thing to do was to make 100% sure this was the guy.

[Sam Anderson]

First, James confirms that there was an arson the night before his interview, just like the man said.

[James Hibbert]

Next, we called the Phoenix pd.

[Sam Anderson]

He asks whether any notes were left at the scene of that fire.

[James Hibbert]

Gave him a couple of the details that he had given us that hadn't been made public.

[Sam Anderson]

One of those details was the signature of the note. It was signed Coalition to save the preserve, McDowell Sonoran Preserve Unit. That's a reference to the new North Phoenix cell of csp. The cops are floored. Until now, they haven't told the public what CSP stands for, let alone this new detail about another unit forming.

[James Hibbert]

Suddenly our phone was blowing up from them because they were kind of freaking out and wanting to know what we were going to do. They didn't want us to run the story.

[Sam Anderson]

When the word reaches Lieutenant Rob Handy that the New Times has interviewed the arsonist and an article is on the way, he goes into crisis mode.

[Rob Handy]

I'm trying to figure out what's coming.

[Sam Anderson]

James interview could not be coming at a worse time for Rob and his team. The cops are out there with night vision goggles, they're chasing down leads, they're searching through trash bins, they're conducting interviews and they still don't have anyone in custody. And now a 28 year old reporter from a liberal alt weekly interviewed the guy they're looking for right under their noses.

[Rob Handy]

There was a ton of pressure. The mayor would show up at fires. The police chief is calling, the fire chief's calling, the media was calling constantly. We were working all the time, around the clock.

[Sam Anderson]

From Rob's perspective, if someone is committing a crime, don't promote them in the media. The New Times knows the man they interviewed might not be trustworthy and they know he's using their platform, using James to promote his own narrative.

[James Hibbert]

But it doesn't mean that a respected news outlet doesn't do that interview with somebody who is so inherently newsworthy. So you just try to provide context and trust the reader.

[Sam Anderson]

The New Times wasn't the first news outlet that this so called arsonist had tried to contact. Letters had arrived at other newsrooms across the city, too, and these had been promptly handed over to the police. They were checked for clues, traces of DNA, which didn't bring up any matches, and added to the pile of other letters left at the arson scenes by csp. James and the New Times, on the other hand, bypassed this process entirely.

[Rob Handy]

At the time, this was a. In our opinion, an unethical and unprofessional, and this was like breaking all the rules.

[Sam Anderson]

So as the publishing deadline approaches for James and the New Times, Phoenix PD is breathing down their necks. It's crucial that they nail the journalism and present the story as transparently as possible.

[James Hibbert]

There was a sidebar to the story I felt was important, which was explaining, here's what we've been able to confirm, here's what we don't know, which is basically everything he's claiming about his biography and the group. I wanted the reader to know our source was likely to be an unreliable narrator. And being transparent about everything about what we know and what we don't was the most responsible way to do it.

[Sam Anderson]

A week after the interview, editor Mike Lacey finally signs off on the article. Tomorrow it will be on the front page.

[James Hibbert]

The night before, there was definitely a feeling of you knew it was going to be like a bomb going off.

[Sam Anderson]

The next morning, the bomb is dropped. A simple headline blaring from every newsstand.

[James Hibbert]

Exclusive interview with the preserve's arsonist.

[Warren Jerrems]

It was something like, hey, I just met with the arsonist and here's all what's going on.

[Sam Anderson]

Remember local jogger Warren Jerrems? He's slightly misremembered the headline there, but he does remember very well how the article shocked the community. He tells me how the ripples were felt in church.

[Warren Jerrems]

Mark and I are sitting out in the pews while the choir director is leading the youth in whatever song it is. We get there a little bit early so we can hear him sing.

[Sam Anderson]

Usually, Warren and his buddy Mark are enraptured by the angelic voices of their daughters at choir practice. But this particular evening, those voices reverberating through the church are the last thing on their mind.

[Warren Jerrems]

Mark, he has a copy of the New Times article with this interview. He says, look at this. We just read the whole article together.

[Sam Anderson]

This story feels very close to home, and it's not just because it's happening in their backyard.

[Warren Jerrems]

The police released a composite sketch of who they thought the arsonist might be.

[Sam Anderson]

The New Times rival the Arizona Republic included this sketch in their paper about.

[Warren Jerrems]

A week Before Mark kind of laughed and he says, hey, that looks just like you. And it did. It really did.

[Sam Anderson]

Warren laughs off the similarity and they continue pouring over the article. It's filled with details about the arsonist that have never before been made public, including the meaning of that mysterious acronym.

[Warren Jerrems]

Csp, the Coalition to Save the Preserve.

[Sam Anderson]

And there's details about the other CSP members too. The interviewee told James, one of the group's members works at an outdoor equipment store. Another member is a woman who works in health care. A third works at a local government agency. All of them, he claims, love mountain biking. But the thing Warren's most fascinated by is the sheer brazenness of the interview.

[Warren Jerrems]

How could you do that? How could anybody sit down there in the middle of Phoenix, right in the downtown area with all the people around? It was so unbelievable that somebody would even do this.

[Sam Anderson]

Everyone I spoke to in Phoenix remembered exactly where they were when they first read the article.

[Kaley Cuoco]

New Times used to have free newspapers at the hospital, and so I was reading it at work and everybody was very angry.

[Sam Anderson]

Danielle Sink's home was burned to the ground just a couple weeks earlier, leaving behind nothing but a tiny Santa Claus charred to a crisp.

[Kaley Cuoco]

The way the person they interviewed talked about it, he just sounded so self important and proud of himself that it really offended me.

[Sam Anderson]

The article is also making waves in the Phoenix Fire Department.

[Rob Handy]

Usually there's, I don't know, a hundred, and it was down to like three.

[Sam Anderson]

This is Deputy Fire Chief Bob Kahn. When he arrives at work that morning, he takes a copy of the New Times from the newsstand right outside the fire station.

[Rob Handy]

I grabbed one. I can remember going up to my office and saying, you know, wtf? How do you do that? That guy talked to the press and he thinks it's a joke. And there were families that were suffering. So as a firefighter, I wasn't happy about that.

[Sam Anderson]

When Lee Benson hears about the article, he has some choice words for the Phoenix New Times. I didn't think it was a serious news publication at all. He also doesn't buy what the arsonist is saying about the wider CSP group. There's no way it can be true. And I think that the biggest thing for me, you can't have four people and keep something this big quiet in Phoenix with all these eyeballs and ears on it. There's no way somebody's playing with the media. Over at the task force headquarters, Lieutenant Rob Handy and his team have their hands on the article, too. They knew the story was coming, but it's even worse than they thought.

[Rob Handy]

Somebody brought in some copies and we were all reading it in the station.

[Sam Anderson]

When you see that headline, what's your gut reaction?

[Rob Handy]

Oh, it was anger. Anger at James Hibbard, anger at the New Times. They're celebrating and sensationalizing a criminal.

[Kaley Cuoco]

It was total frustration.

[Sam Anderson]

Even the unflappable FBI case lead, Terry Kearns is unhappy.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Had he reached out to us, we could have maybe surveilled and seen who it was or followed and got a tip on who it was. And he chose not to do that.

[Sam Anderson]

Now that he's reading the actual article, Rob and his team are more angry than ever that James and his editors didn't work with them to catch CSP as soon as they received that first letter.

[Rob Handy]

We really thought at the time, the more this continued, somebody was going to get hurt and possibly killed.

[Kaley Cuoco]

We get he wants a story, but doesn't he want to stop these arsons from occurring? And people were mad.

[James Hibbert]

I think there was just a bit of a sense around the newsroom that we had landed a big one, we had caught the big fish, and now people were coming for us.

[Sam Anderson]

James is confident that he wrote the article as responsibly as he could. He verified everything he could verify. He provided context and he informed his readers that this guy might be an unreliable narrator, so we couldn't be accused.

[James Hibbert]

Of holding anything back. There would be nothing for cops to come after us for. Or so I naively thought at the time.

[Sam Anderson]

If you've listened to as many true crime podcasts as I have, you know exactly what happens when you piss off the cops.

[James Hibbert]

What happened next was the cops wanted me to come in for a chat. It wasn't like Good Cop, Bad Cop. It was like Bad Cop, Worst Cop, even worse Cop.

[Kaley Cuoco]

This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. From streaming to shopping, prime helps you get more out of your passions. So whether you're a fan of true crime or prefer a nail biting novel from time to time, with services like Prime Video, Amazon Music and Fox Fast free delivery, prime makes it easy to get more out of whatever you're into or getting into. Visit Amazon.comprime to learn more. Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores automate allowance, and keep an eye on your kids spending. With real time notifications, kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely and parents can rest easy knowing their kids Are learning about money with guardrails in place. Try Greenlight Risk free. [e-mail] Spotify.

[Sam Anderson]

James is sitting in the office of the New Times attorney. Three cops from the task force are there to speak with him. I think that the tone was friendly. This is Sergeant Trent Crump. He's been on the investigation with Lieutenant Robb since the beginning and he's one of the officers interviewing James. As far as I remember, the meeting was very cordial. Not how James remembers it.

[James Hibbert]

Three hard boiled Phoenix PD detectives just staring at you. I got the vibe that they all thought I was a piece of shit.

[Sam Anderson]

They start with the basics, clarifying the beats of the story as told by the arsonist to James in the park bench interview.

[Rob Handy]

There's a lot of things we wanted to know.

[Sam Anderson]

Lieutenant Rob Handy is there too.

[Rob Handy]

When did he first contact you? On what phone number? Have you had any prior contact with him? What did he tell you? Did you know anything about the fire the night before? Did you know what was going to happen?

[James Hibbert]

All those things I confirmed, yes, this was true. Yes, that was true.

[Sam Anderson]

He answers all of our questions.

[James Hibbert]

Then they started edging into details that I hadn't thought about and I started to get hesitant. I'm definitely feeling the pressure of the situation.

[Sam Anderson]

James is trying to figure out where his journalistic line is, how much cooperation is too much. He's wrestling with what he owes to his source versus the cops versus the public. Keep in mind this is his first job as a reporter.

[James Hibbert]

Just trying to figure out in real time what questions they're asking are ones that I want to answer versus. Where do I say, no, I'm not helping you anymore?

[Sam Anderson]

Eventually, Rob and Trent are satisfied that James isn't holding anything back, that he's given them all the information he has. I don't like the tactics of James Hibbert in this particular case, but I still believe that he was very fair. He answers all of our questions. I mean, he doesn't know the name of the person. I think that James was as open as he was going to be without revealing a source. But there's one more thing they want James to do.

[James Hibbert]

They really wanted me to set up another interview or at least have another conversation with him on the phone, this time being on tape to help them catch him.

[Sam Anderson]

This puts James in a bad position. One of the first rules you learn as a journalist is that you don't give up a confidential source to the authorities. And you certainly don't walk them straight into a trap set up by police.

[James Hibbert]

If a Journalist sells out a source, and it gets out that they did that, then it would damage media operations everywhere by making it harder for reporters to get people to trust them.

[Sam Anderson]

But when people's lives are at risk, does that change the rules?

[Rob Handy]

We're like, well, you want to get people hurt? You're going to let somebody get hurt before we figure out who he is?

[Sam Anderson]

James puts on his best poker face while he wrestles with this moral dilemma.

[James Hibbert]

What if he burns down another house and this time somebody gets hurt or killed? What if, like, an undercover cop sees him in the act and he shoots him to get away?

[Sam Anderson]

It's not lost on me that Rob is also feeling the weight of the world bearing down on him in this moment. He's only a few years older than James, and for him, the stakes are a lot bigger than getting a good scoop. Phoenix is counting on him to solve this case, but Rob has a huge joint task force and the weight of the FBI backing him up. James Hibbard is just a cub reporter whose editor seems to have decided not to show up for this extremely important meeting with the cops. What about Lacy? How come he didn't show up to the meeting?

[James Hibbert]

All these questions you're asking about, why didn't your editors help you more in this? It's good questions. It's just ones I never really thought of until now. And I'm like, yeah, why didn't they?

[Sam Anderson]

Whatever the reason, James is on his own. The interview grinds on. Rob and Trent press James to cooperate. Inside, James is conflicted, but he keeps his mouth shut. That's when the detectives try a new approach.

[James Hibbert]

At the end of the interview, they said there's a $76,000 reward, an anonymous reward for information leading to the arsonist capture. And they said, you can still be the journalist hero while being an actual hero and help us catch him. Nobody needs to know that you helped us now. At the time, I was making 30k a year and had over 20k in student loan debt at 8% interest because that's what the 90s were like.

[Sam Anderson]

The cops figure if they can't prove pressure him to cooperate, maybe they can convince him with visions of hero status and a big payday, he can have his cake and eat it, too. All he has to do is help.

[James Hibbert]

This was a massive amount of money they were offering.

[Sam Anderson]

Next time on the Arsonist Next Door. James has to make a choice and live with the consequences.

[James Hibbert]

Every morning, I would wake up with this pit in my stomach. Thank God the guy went to the reporter.

[Kaley Cuoco]

He thought he was so smart that.

[James Hibbert]

He could taunt law enforcement by manipulating the media. The bad guy made a mistake.

[Sam Anderson]

Don't want to wait for that next episode. You don't have to unlock all episodes of the Arsonist Next Door ad free right now by subscribing to the Binge Podcast Channel. Search for the binge on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe at the top of the page not on apple. Head to getthebinge.com to get access wherever you listen. As a subscriber, you'll get binge access to new stories on the 1st of every month. Check out the Binge Channel page on apple podcasts or getthebinge.com to learn more. The Arsonist Next Door is an original production of Sony Music Entertainment and Novel. This series was written and reported by me, Sam Anderson. It was produced and reported by Leona Hamid. Our assistant producer is Madeline Parr. Research by Zayana Youssef. Additional production from Tom Wright and G. Stiles. Our editor is Dave Anderson. Additional story editing from Max o' Brien. From Novel, our executive producers are Max o' Brien and Craig Strachan. From Sony Music Entertainment, our executive producers are Catherine St. Louis and Jonathan Hirsch. Sound design, mixing and scoring by Nicholas Alexander and Daniel Kempson. Our original theme song was composed and performed by Nicholas Alexander. Production management from Cherie Houston, Joe Savage, Sarah Tobin and Charlotte Wolf. Fact checking by Danya Soleiman, Story development by Nell Gray Andrews. Novel's director of development is Selena Mehta and Willard Foxton is Novel's Creative Director of development. Special thanks to Jen Fifield, Libby Gough, Bob Kahn, Xander Adams, Anthony Wallace, Steve Ackerman, Carolyn Schur Levin and the team at Reviewed and cleared Mario Cacciotolo, Isaac Fisher, Kevin Lee, Carlos Harass, Jess Swinburne, Sonny Marr, Karly Frankel and the team at WME.

[James Hibbert]

Foreign.

[Kaley Cuoco]

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